←2010-12-25 2010-12-26 2010-12-27→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:27 <elliott> ((equal? (car e) 'lambda)
00:00:27 <elliott> (lambda (args)
00:00:27 <elliott> (evil
00:00:27 <elliott> (car (cdr (cdr e))) ;;
00:00:27 <elliott> (append (bind (car (cdr e)) args) env))))
00:00:35 <elliott> Hmm.
00:00:49 <elliott> Pixley solves this problem by just Y-combinatoring, but, uh, ...
00:03:12 <elliott> Nobody have any fantastically enlightening opinions to give?
00:03:47 <j-invariant> evil??
00:04:50 <elliott> j-invariant: It's what I called eval to not step on the built-in R5RS procedure.
00:13:20 <elliott> Great, it doesn't self-interpret...
00:13:29 <Gregor> Hello, HEATHENS
00:14:48 <elliott> Gregor: YO.
00:14:50 <elliott> Gregor: Fix my 'terp.
00:15:04 <elliott> In fact, everyone fix my 'terp.
00:15:21 <Gregor> NOWAY BIACH
00:15:21 <elliott> Gregor: If you don't want to do that, write a paper about this: http://syntensity.com/static/python.js
00:15:26 <j-invariant> just have something that turns "lambda" into lambda and you're done
00:15:36 <elliott> CPython compiled to LLVM compiled to JavaScript.
00:15:39 <elliott> j-invariant: nope, it's a scope problem
00:15:48 <elliott> j-invariant: basically "(define x y) ..." is the same as (let ((x y)) ...)
00:15:55 <elliott> so obviously can't self-reference at all :-/
00:15:58 <j-invariant> scope is always difficult..
00:16:03 <elliott> I mean I'm just doing
00:16:07 <elliott> (define mock
00:16:07 <elliott> (lambda (f)
00:16:07 <elliott> (f f)))
00:16:08 <elliott> for now
00:16:11 <elliott> and having everything be ugly
00:16:15 <elliott> but i have a subtle bug now, in self-interpreting
00:16:18 <elliott> which is just making me the sads.
00:18:13 <elliott> specifically
00:18:15 <elliott> cons: expects 2 arguments, given 1: (car #<procedure:car>)
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00:24:51 <elliott> hi RachelS
00:25:14 <RachelS> hello Elliot
00:26:44 <elliott> RachelS: this channel is about esoteric programming languages, btw
00:27:02 <RachelS> Ah yes I've visited your wiki
00:27:11 <elliott> right, a lot of people come in here expecting other things :p
00:27:21 <RachelS> I had no expectations
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00:46:11 <j-invariant> I hate re-writing :/
00:51:02 <elliott> ineiros_: hMod, it is the out.
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01:35:48 <j-invariant> elliott: I'm running out o fmotivation :(
01:38:36 <elliott> j-invariant: but category theory!
01:38:41 <j-invariant> I know
01:39:02 <j-invariant> I'ull make a roadmap
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02:27:07 <elliott> does anyone else want to try the Pixley Challenge? :-P
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02:32:41 <j-invariant> what is it?
02:33:56 <elliott> j-invariant: "Write a self-interpreter in a subset of R5RS Scheme. Optimise for the shortness of the interpreter and secondarily the size of the language. You may make it metacircular, but using EVAL itself is probably verboten in my opinion."
02:34:02 <elliott> j-invariant: (That's what I just wrote now, not a quote.)
02:34:08 <elliott> It must be able to interpret itself, obviously.
02:34:12 <j-invariant> oh it has to be scheme
02:35:36 <elliott> j-invariant: well you could do it to common lisp if you wanted i guess
02:35:40 <elliott> but scheme is simpler to implement
02:38:04 <elliott> j-invariant: why, what lang were you thinking of?
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03:17:03 <elliott> oh man, this is so close to working
03:18:08 <pikhq> Oh?
03:19:08 <elliott> pikhq: yep, my metacircular subset-of-Scheme interpreter
03:20:29 <elliott> procedure ...e/diuerse/d2.scm:34:5: expects 2 arguments, given 1: ((procedure? e) e)
03:20:31 <elliott> hm, what :)
03:26:56 <elliott> pikhq: fix my code!
03:29:25 <pikhq> Insufficient Calvin & Hobbes.
03:30:20 <bsmntbombdood> fuck yeah scheme
03:31:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood!
03:31:22 <pikhq> I've not seen you actually say something in ages!
03:31:24 <bsmntbombdood> hello
03:36:23 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: less talking more pixley challenging
03:39:41 <bsmntbombdood> needs more call/cc
03:40:45 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: if you can make the self-interpreter smaller by doing CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION ... be my guest but i find it unlikely
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03:44:16 <elliott> pikhq: so how do i order some piks from the hq
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04:09:29 <elliott> http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/blog/ReplaceFancyPantsTerminology Guy L. Steele thinks that instead of saying "Commutative[Q,*]" we should say "OrderDoesn'tMatter[Q,*]". What.
04:11:54 <bsmntbombdood> yes, throw away existing, formally-defined terminology so someone doesn't have to learn something
04:12:19 <j-invariant> this has nothing to do with programming languages... this post is PR or something
04:13:04 <elliott> yeah i like the fortress guys but ... what on earth made him think that
04:14:35 <j-invariant> too much chrismas spirit or someshing
04:21:54 <elliott> I wonder if floating point has any "useful" properties ... i.e. can you restate basic identities in them given some well-defined error term or whatever?
04:22:15 <elliott> like being able to say that a+b = b+a+error, except I'm pretty sure floating point addition is at least commutative ...
05:03:36 <elliott> pikhq: Holy shit. WebTV is still marketed and sold.
05:03:38 <elliott> pikhq: As the "MSN TV".
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05:14:49 <pikhq> Holy shit. People still buy that crap?
05:18:29 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/U4mPS.png
05:18:39 <Quadrescence> rms doesn't quite give the same air as jimbo wales
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05:39:40 <j-invariant> are the ashes on?
05:40:50 <pikhq> I'm afraid some murderous robots from the planet Krikkit took them. Something about the "Wooden Bail"...
06:05:43 <bsmntbombdood> i hate floats
06:05:53 <bsmntbombdood> rational bignums ftw
06:06:23 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
06:06:49 <Sgeo> And I hate anyone who sees a coordinate system in the form of 0.54, fails to realize that it's internally an int that, in that example, stores 54, and decides to model it with floating point
06:06:59 * Gregor <3 floating point
06:09:19 * Sgeo hits Gregor with a banking program written by an idiot who used floating-point to represent currency
06:09:34 <Gregor> Ooooh, that's bad ...
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06:40:12 <j-invariant> zzo38: are the ashes on
06:41:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: I don't know. Did you ask a question about TeXnicard after I quit earlier today?
06:41:21 <j-invariant> yes what is TeXnicard
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06:42:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: TeXnicard is a program designed for making high-quality production quality cards such as Magic: the Gathering and so on, and also pack generation, statistics, and more.
06:42:30 <coppro> why is stats and stuff in TeX
06:42:32 <coppro> that seems totally wrong
06:42:34 <zzo38> It uses TeX to do the typesetting, METAFONT for fonts and set symbols, and ImageMagick to put everything together and apply.
06:42:40 <coppro> like 100% totally totally wrong
06:42:43 <j-invariant> oh cool zzo38 that sounds good
06:42:43 <zzo38> coppro: The stats and stuff is not in TeX.
06:42:47 <coppro> zzo38: oh
06:42:54 <coppro> j-invariant: basically he's trying to replace MSE
06:43:00 <zzo38> TeXnicard is not written entirely in TeX. It only uses TeX for the typesetting.
06:43:02 <coppro> knowing zzo38 it will likely not happen
06:43:06 <coppro> but if it does, <3
06:45:23 <zzo38> I have actually already written much of TeXnicard already.
06:47:19 <zzo38> It is already 71 pages long so far.
06:47:41 <coppro> pages?
06:47:45 <coppro> you measure code in pages?
06:48:15 <zzo38> coppro: Yes. (Note this count also include the index and table of contents)
06:48:41 <coppro> oh god
06:48:44 <coppro> are you using CWEB?
06:48:50 <zzo38> coppro: I am using Enhanced CWEB.
06:48:54 <coppro> oh dear
06:49:24 <zzo38> coppro: Is such a thing wrong?
06:51:59 <coppro> CWEB makes me twitch
06:52:13 <zzo38> coppro: Why?
06:52:52 <coppro> because it's so focused on making documentation out of code
06:53:11 <coppro> but this is usually unnecessary
06:53:40 <coppro> you're doing something wrong if you need a paragraph of text to accomplish each paragraph of code
06:53:58 <zzo38> coppro: A paragraph of text is not necessary for most of the paragraphs of code.
06:54:07 <zzo38> But sometimes it is useful to do so.
06:54:24 <coppro> in which regular comments usually do fine
06:54:36 <Sgeo> coppro, Factor separates code and docs into separate files
06:55:02 <zzo38> Even for the ones without, it is useful to organize into chapters, use code chunk rearrange, index, and more things.
06:55:11 <coppro> Sgeo: that I disagree with too
06:55:32 <coppro> there should really be two sorts of docs
06:55:39 <coppro> API docs and comments
06:55:49 <coppro> API docs are "how to use this piece of code"
06:55:52 <zzo38> Code and explanation is printed together in one book.
06:56:08 <coppro> while comments let someone looking at a confusing block of code understand it
06:56:12 <coppro> API docs should be separate
06:56:15 <zzo38> Mostly the explanations are about the "higher purpose" of the code.
06:56:30 <zzo38> It can be written as you write a book.
06:56:30 <coppro> putting API docs in comments and exracting them automatically is ok
06:58:26 <zzo38> I generally only put explanations where I think it to be necessary or if it is an interesting thing to put in the book.
06:59:34 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB has other features too, such as change files, and code generation (I used some @{ ... @} blocks for interpreted codes for code generation in this program, too)
07:06:34 <zzo38> What I see with literate programming, is basically, the program is also a book. Or in other words, the book is also a computer program. It goes both ways.
07:08:56 <zzo38> Even TeX itself is written in WEB!!
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07:15:18 <coppro> yeah, typical documentation does usually leave the super-high-level concepts out in the dust
07:15:53 <zzo38> Dust?
07:16:45 <coppro> zzo38: as in the coders leave it behind
07:16:46 <coppro> in their heads
07:17:13 <zzo38> oerjan: What does the Sahara have anything to do with this?
07:17:38 <oerjan> i hear it's rather dusty
07:18:15 <zzo38> coppro: Yes. That *is* one thing you do in this book. Explain it and read it at many levels, because you can read the explanation of the "higher purpose" of each chunk (and chapter), and the cross-reference of the other chunk, too.
07:18:35 <coppro> zzo38: I still believe CWEB is overkill
07:19:01 <zzo38> coppro: That is OK, you don't have to use it. I use it, though.
07:19:04 <coppro> k
07:19:15 <oerjan> 20:09:29 <elliott> http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/blog/ReplaceFancyPantsTerminology Guy L. Steele thinks that instead of saying "Commutative[Q,*]" we should say "OrderDoesn'tMatter[Q,*]". What.
07:19:20 <oerjan> 20:11:54 <bsmntbombdood> yes, throw away existing, formally-defined terminology so someone doesn't have to learn something
07:19:38 <oerjan> it's also imprecise, since "order doesn't matter" would tend to imply associativity as well
07:19:42 <bsmntbombdood> oh hello oerjan
07:19:50 <oerjan> hi
07:20:09 * Sgeo is so stupid sometimes
07:20:22 <Sgeo> Trying to do 4 chapters in one night, then 7 page essay the following day
07:20:35 <Sgeo> Well, just finished one of the chapters, at any rate
07:21:08 <bsmntbombdood> i am finally learning haskell ^_^
07:21:12 <coppro> you still have class
07:22:00 <Sgeo> coppro, the grades are due in by Tuesday, the professor saidn "Can you get in the review questions and a final paper by Sunday?"
07:22:01 <oerjan> <j-invariant> are the ashes on?
07:22:20 <oerjan> suddenly half the channel seems to be interested in cricket...
07:22:29 <coppro> Sgeo: where the hell are you in school
07:22:46 <j-invariant> I thought it might help me with my mathematics
07:22:57 <coppro> you're in the land of disregarding the establishment clause, right?
07:23:00 <Sgeo> There are no more classes, classes ended last week I think, no, that was finals week I think
07:23:21 <coppro> lol
07:23:30 <coppro> my school has a rule against assignments in exams
07:23:40 <coppro> usually complaining doesn't do much because they make it due earlier
07:23:59 <Sgeo> coppro, there's something you're not grasping: All of this stuff was due over the course of the semester.
07:24:01 <coppro> but it would probably actually work if you tried it now given that classes ended three weeks ago
07:24:05 <coppro> Sgeo: oh
07:24:08 <coppro> so you're just an idiot
07:24:14 <Sgeo> coppro, yes.
07:24:24 <coppro> k the
07:25:13 <Sgeo> This is like suddenly not showing up to class for half a semester, then trying to do all the homework and exams in a fixed time period...... and putting THOSE off until well beyond reason
07:25:26 <Sgeo> I'm never taking an online class again.
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07:30:36 <j-invariant> Sgeo what happened?
07:30:58 <Sgeo> j-invariant, I stopped even looking at the online course for a few months
07:31:05 <j-invariant> why?
07:31:17 <j-invariant> were you fed up or juts thought it wasn't necessary?
07:31:41 <Sgeo> j-invariant, because. I was overdue with one thing, and it sort of snowballed. And yeah, I may have been a bit cocky, come to think of it. Usually, in my mind, "computer course" == "easy A"
07:32:08 <j-invariant> aw that sucks, what is the course about?
07:32:31 <Sgeo> Cryptography and Computer Security
07:32:37 <Sgeo> Anyways, this question looks fun
07:33:15 -!- zzo38 has set topic: If you do not have access to IRC, then please do not read this notice. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
07:33:43 <oerjan> zzo38: hey, think of the poor log readers! </joke>
07:35:58 <j-invariant> cryptography is an actual science
07:36:16 <j-invariant> like you have to weigh up advantages and stuff
07:36:53 <oerjan> sadly based partly on unproved conjectures
07:37:07 <Sgeo> "Organizations may be willing to pay more for security products if the perceived risk is high, even if its completely off the mark from the actual risk. For instance, currently, in the U.S., a lot of money is being spent on controversial back-scatter machines for airports. It is unclear that the machines are effective, however, in the minds of many, the risk of terrorist attack outweights the risk of automobile accidents, although the latt
07:37:08 <Sgeo> er claim many more lives, and might be a more worthwhile thing to invest against (depending on what can be invested on to prevent such accidents with effectiveness)."
07:37:10 <Sgeo> Sorry
07:37:20 <Sgeo> I think I'm not forming my ideas coherently anymore
07:38:32 <zzo38> Can you find a proof, counterexample, or proof that there is no proof?
07:38:51 <oerjan> zzo38: was that a response to me?
07:39:06 <zzo38> Or proof of the opposite, even though you can find no counterexample?
07:39:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Partially, yes.
07:39:16 <j-invariant> it's based on evidence rather than mathematical proof
07:40:22 <oerjan> zzo38: one _might_. finding a proof would require proving the P!=NP conjecture.
07:41:12 <oerjan> the opposite might be somewhat weaker
07:43:00 <oerjan> while there is no actual proof of P!=NP yet, there are some results that imply the "easy" methods of complexity theory cannot work to resolve it
07:43:43 <j-invariant> I always wanted to learn those theorems
07:43:54 <j-invariant> think it would take years though..
07:44:16 <j-invariant> there are statements like that about fermats last thoerem and four color thoerem? I think
07:44:35 <oerjan> i haven't heard about those...
07:44:46 <j-invariant> maybe that's my imagination
07:45:12 <oerjan> there were of course many false leads, which might vaguely be interpreted as such theorems
07:46:09 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a proof that there is no proof that there is a proof of such a theorem?
07:47:19 <Sgeo> Wooo!
07:47:24 <Sgeo> 2 chapters down, 2 to go
07:47:45 <Sgeo> Didn't even read the chapter, just the questions :/
07:47:55 <Sgeo> I don't think I mentioned computing even once... oh, I did
07:48:00 <Sgeo> Railed against the Cloud a bit
07:48:01 <oerjan> zzo38: probably. there are some restrictions though. for example if you proved that there was no disproof of fermat's last theorem, then you would have proved it... this is because there is an explicit, if non-terminating algorithm to find any counterexample.
07:48:42 <oerjan> oh and proofs that there are no proof need to be conditional on the consistency of the system, to avoid godel's theorems
07:48:48 <zzo38> oerjan: O, I guess you are right! That would work. A counterexample is a disproof.
07:49:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, you must be right about that too.
07:50:11 <zzo38> How many years before IRC did Hofstadter write the GEB book?
07:51:25 <oerjan> IRC is from 1988 and GEB was published in 1979
07:51:43 <j-invariant> how come it's popular now?
07:51:49 <oerjan> says wikipedia
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07:53:37 <Sgeo> 7 page paper. Written on lack of sleep. It's going to be fun on a bun
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07:57:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: just hope you don't wake up and discover it consists only of repetitions of "All work and no play makes Seth a dull boy"
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07:58:51 <Sgeo> lol
07:59:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, it will be glad that it doesn't say that! (It says "Jack" instead of "Seth")
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08:00:51 <oerjan> well in any case i'm sure his paper will set a shining example
08:01:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you think he has enough shiny ink?
08:01:44 <Sgeo> I watched that movie a long time ago. I remember nothing about it
08:01:54 <Sgeo> Watched it at a sleepover iirc
08:02:01 <Sgeo> Or I could be hallucinating
08:02:20 <Sgeo> I think there was also The Excorcist, which I declined to watch, and some stupid movie about Martians
08:02:38 <Sgeo> I think I've only ever been to one sleepover in my life, so
08:02:43 <Sgeo> Except on a class trip
08:02:47 <Sgeo> I'm rambling
08:03:34 <Sgeo> Supposedly, I didn't eat on that trip
08:04:15 <Sgeo> Or I could be misremembering someone screaming about that at me, my memory of the trip itself is hazy
08:04:19 <oerjan> so it was an evil camp where they starved children. got it.
08:04:29 <Sgeo> But it sounds like something I might do, but that's not reliable
08:04:42 <Sgeo> oerjan, there was almost certainly food. I can just imagine myself not touching it thogh
08:04:53 <Sgeo> Maybe I drank Ensure. Used to have Ensure for lunch every day
08:05:05 <zzo38> If everything is an illusion and nothing exists, do you think he definitely overpaid for his carpet, or do you think the money you used to pay for it is all hallucination?
08:05:20 <oerjan> zzo38: is that a quote?
08:05:47 <oerjan> ah woody allen
08:05:55 <zzo38> oerjan: No. It is something I wrote in the margin of a book, next to a similar quote.
08:06:41 <oerjan> zzo38: it could be both... even illusionary money can be a scarce resource
08:07:01 <zzo38> oerjan: OK.
08:07:17 <oerjan> which iiuc is all that matters to economists
08:07:53 <oerjan> in fact our modern money is quite close to being an illusion already
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08:08:01 <zzo38> But then, everything being an illusion and nothing exists, does not *make* it he definitely overpaid for his carpet, directly. It might imply such a thing *indirectly*, though.
08:08:09 <zzo38> (For example, if the carpet is expensive)
08:08:58 <oerjan> zzo38: i am quite sure woody allen was joking, anyway
08:09:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, of course. But this quote was in a book about philosophy (along with many other things, some of which are jokes).
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08:22:57 <zzo38> This philosophy also contains a recipe for some Chinese food:
08:23:20 <zzo38> 1 pcs. chicken, 4 pcs. preserved beancurd, some gingar, chive, salt, sugar, gourmet powder, syrup, perfune, wine.
08:23:49 <zzo38> After wash, apply the preserved beaucurd, gingar, chive, salt, monosodium, sugar, syrup, perfume, wine into the bally of chicken, sew with iron needle.
08:24:13 <zzo38> After scalded by boiling water, pour water on duck, apply the syrup on the skin.
08:24:16 <zzo38> Hang it with cancel.
08:24:26 <zzo38> Then roast the chicken for ripe and skinn turn into gold-red colour.
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08:35:52 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/idZbZm8A <- my work of yesterday
08:36:40 <asiekierka> app stored in app.txt, in binary (for example: 0000 0011, non-01 chars are ignored)
08:38:47 <asiekierka> brainf**k can be implemented in it so it seems turing-complete
08:40:12 <oerjan> asiekierka: don't you mean s/shift/rotate/ ?
08:40:34 <asiekierka> yes, yes i do
08:40:51 <asiekierka> the interpreter is not really good
08:40:52 <asiekierka> but it works
08:40:55 <asiekierka> i've tested all the commands
08:41:14 <oerjan> i assume those shift/rotate operations are what makes it more than a pushdown automaton in power
08:41:44 <asiekierka> well
08:41:45 <asiekierka> is it any good
08:44:45 <oerjan> it seems a bit run-of-the-mill to me
08:59:08 <Sgeo> 3/4
09:00:54 <asiekierka> 3/4 what
09:01:11 <Sgeo> Chapters of Review Questions
09:04:23 <asiekierka> 0000 0000 0111
09:04:24 <asiekierka> 1000 0001 1101 0000 1101 0111 0001 1100 0111 0001 1100 0111 1001
09:04:31 <asiekierka> code to duplicate value on the top of the stack
09:04:34 <asiekierka> well, not quite
09:04:45 <asiekierka> 0000 0000 0111
09:04:45 <asiekierka> 1000 0001 1101 0000 1101 0111 0001 1100 0111 0001 1100 0110 0110 1001
09:05:33 <asiekierka> i'll have to work on it
09:14:59 <asiekierka> 0000 0000 0110 0110
09:14:59 <asiekierka> 1000 0001 1101 0000 1101 0111 0001 1100 0111 0001 1100 0110 0110 1001
09:15:01 <asiekierka> there, fixed
09:15:05 <asiekierka> first line is initalization
09:15:10 <asiekierka> second line is copy
09:15:20 <asiekierka> you're left with two values, counting from the top of the stack they're 0, 2, 2
09:16:43 <Sgeo> "If we think of documentation as a written work of nonfiction (or, perhaps, fiction)"
09:18:25 <asiekierka> <oerjan> it seems a bit run-of-the-mill to me
09:18:32 <asiekierka> that inspired me for a name for my esolang
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09:18:36 <asiekierka> stackmill
09:20:04 <Sgeo> variable = "I am too tired to actually think of anything creative here";
09:20:07 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/FADctGjY
09:20:32 <variable> Sgeo, ?
09:20:53 <Sgeo> My way of both saying hi and trying and failing to be humorous
09:21:05 <variable> Sgeo, variable == "I don't like being googled'
09:21:10 <variable> and Hi
09:21:53 <variable> http://codepad.org/R1ydyMJ8 --> does anyone see anything wrong with this implementation of brainfuck ?
09:22:06 <Sgeo> Oh, I wasn't saying you weren't creative
09:22:09 <Sgeo> I was saying I was
09:22:18 <Sgeo> I am doing half a semester's worth of homework in one night
09:22:21 <asiekierka> variable i don't think so
09:22:25 <variable> sorry http://codepad.org/7jjWZ8QN
09:22:31 <asiekierka> but you could keep a stack of instruction pointers for the [...]
09:22:36 <asiekierka> that would speed it up A LOT
09:22:48 <variable> asiekierka, yeah - but it would complicate the code :-)
09:22:52 <asiekierka> yes
09:23:08 <variable> asiekierka, problem is .. its Not Working for any code with []s
09:23:10 <variable> but I don'
09:23:13 <variable> but I don't see why
09:23:28 <variable> Sgeo, what class?
09:23:40 <Sgeo> Cryptography and Computer Security
09:23:53 <variable> Sgeo, fun - the best class :-)
09:24:13 <Sgeo> variable, unless you screw up like I have and don't do any work for a few months
09:24:35 <variable> asiekierka, do you see anything wrong with my [ and ] implementation ?
09:24:47 <variable> Sgeo, ha
09:25:27 <oerjan> variable: the test for ] should be != 0, not == 0
09:25:46 <asiekierka> variable i am busy porting my stackmill interp to the GBA
09:25:48 <asiekierka> stackmill is my own esolang
09:26:13 <variable> oerjan, oh woops. that was a copy/paste error ;-)
09:27:15 <variable> I wish I knew this channel existed
09:27:24 <Sgeo> oerjan, hah! I'm getting more work done while in here than I ever have while forced out!
09:27:27 <variable> my computers are named after esoteric programming languages
09:27:33 <oerjan> your wish has been fulfilled!
09:27:34 <variable> ie AlphaBeta Bork,
09:27:38 <variable> BrainFk
09:27:39 <variable> etc
09:27:46 <oerjan> Sgeo: heh
09:27:54 <variable> Sgeo, knew != know
09:28:36 <oerjan> variable: wishes sometimes tend to come with uncomfortable delays
09:28:45 <oerjan> sadly
09:29:13 * Sgeo decides not to state his sexual wishes in the channel
09:29:44 <Sgeo> ^^even that might have been a bit much
09:30:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't think that is very revealing
09:30:18 <Sgeo> It might give variable a wrong impression
09:30:27 <variable> oerjan, thanks for the bugfix
09:30:42 <oerjan> you're welcome
09:30:42 <variable> now.. to see if I make it just as simple... without the stack/programsize limitation \
09:32:11 <variable> ,[.,] --> cat in brainfuck :-)
09:33:38 <fizzie> ^show cat
09:33:38 <fungot> ,[.,]
09:33:55 <fizzie> Our "echo" command is a bit on the whimsical side.
09:33:58 <fizzie> ^echo Hello?
09:33:58 <fungot> Hello? Hello?
09:34:03 <variable> :-|
09:34:06 <variable> ^help
09:34:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:34:11 <fizzie> ^code
09:34:14 <fizzie> ^source
09:34:14 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
09:34:20 <fizzie> I always forget which one it is.
09:34:26 <variable> :-)
09:34:48 <variable> someone should rewrite it in INTERCAL
09:35:11 <fizzie> I'm guessing that'd be a good idea if that someone were paid by line.
09:35:38 <fizzie> fungot: Say something insightful this time?
09:35:39 <fungot> fizzie: and the blots are removed from that player loses one blue vc. a unique instance of a
09:35:41 <fizzie> ^style
09:35:42 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
09:35:44 <fizzie> ^style irc
09:35:44 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
09:35:54 <fizzie> fungot: The agora style isn't very insightful.
09:35:55 <fungot> fizzie: what language? answered my question already
09:36:52 <Sgeo> fizzie, you don't know of Agora?
09:37:18 <Sgeo> Also, blots are OLD
09:37:23 <Sgeo> Oldie oldie old
09:37:26 <fizzie> Sgeo: I do, but it stil doesn't make that very insightful.
09:37:52 <fizzie> Yes, well, the model was built out of some sort of a collection of both current and historical rules.
09:39:35 <variable> its 430 AM
09:39:41 * variable has NO idea why I'm up
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10:29:28 <asiekierka> yay
10:29:35 <asiekierka> ported my interpreter to GBA
10:29:38 <asiekierka> and found a bug in libgba's printf
10:29:45 <asiekierka> so i had to use an itoa
10:45:05 <variable> libgba ?
10:45:11 <variable> game boy advanced/
10:45:18 <variable> also -> what bug?
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11:04:30 <asiekierka> printf("%d",i) for i values over 9 breaks
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13:16:17 <oerjan> <asiekierka> printf("%d",i) for i values over 9 breaks
13:16:36 <oerjan> someone thought %d was for "digit"? :D
13:19:59 <Vorpal> asiekierka, hm... reported the bug?
13:21:16 <Vorpal> asiekierka, hm is it a freestanding or a hosted environment?
13:21:21 <Vorpal> (in the C sense)
13:21:49 <Vorpal> quoting C99: "A conforming freestanding implementation shall accept any strictly conforming program that does not use complex types and in which the use of the features specified in the library clause (clause 7) is confined to the contents of the standard headers <float.h>, <iso646.h>, <limits.h>, <stdarg.h>, <stdbool.h>, <stddef.h>, and <stdint.h>. "
13:22:13 <Vorpal> notably this does not include stdio.h
13:23:27 <Vorpal> I'm not sure, but I *think* this means that *iff* it is a freestanding implementation, then it can do what the hell it wants in stdio.h, including making demons fly out of your nose.
13:23:50 <Vorpal> err wait no
13:24:16 <Vorpal> "A conforming implementation may have extensions (including additional library functions), provided they do not alter the behavior of any strictly conforming program³⁾"
13:24:57 <Vorpal> "³⁾ This implies that a conforming implementation reserves no identifiers other than those explicitly reserved in this International Standard."
13:25:06 <Vorpal> hm
13:25:39 <Vorpal> well that last bit is not in the bit that is specifically about freestanding
13:25:50 <Vorpal> so I'm not sure how you should interpret it
13:27:48 <Vorpal> atm I'm tying to figure out this statement: "A program that is correct in all other aspects, operating on correct data, containing unspecified behavior shall be a correct program and act in accordance with"
13:30:12 <asiekierka> Vorpal
13:30:13 <asiekierka> about the bug
13:30:21 <asiekierka> it only happens in the best GBA emulator available, NO$GBA
13:30:27 <asiekierka> it doesn't happen on the worse emulators (VisualBoyAdvance)
13:30:28 <asiekierka> or the real thing
13:30:55 <Vorpal> (btw, of those headers required in a freestanding environment, only stdarg.h and float.h are non-trivial.)
13:31:09 <Vorpal> asiekierka, maybe it isn't the best emulator then
13:32:20 <Vorpal> (actually, it seems float.h is trivial too)
13:42:06 <asiekierka> Vorpal sadly it is
13:42:11 <asiekierka> it implements the most features and quirks
13:42:13 <asiekierka> out of all emulators
13:42:36 <asiekierka> has a debugger (paid, though)
13:42:41 <asiekierka> and is recommended by most homebrew devers
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14:11:52 <Ilari> Errr... What does printf("%d",i) do if i is 10 on that platform?
14:13:53 <asiekierka> it prints 10
14:13:53 <asiekierka> obviously
14:14:00 <asiekierka> but on GBA with the NO$GBA emulator
14:14:06 <asiekierka> (which is the best emulator for it)
14:14:08 <asiekierka> it crashes the machinr
14:14:10 <asiekierka> machine*
14:15:11 <Ilari> Figured out what instruction inside printf crashes it?
14:18:42 <asiekierka> i don't care
14:18:47 <asiekierka> it does not happen on the real thing
14:18:48 <asiekierka> so it's OK
14:19:13 <asiekierka> and i've just found a custom itoa function for that
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14:42:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
14:44:42 <asiekierka> hey
14:51:08 <Vorpal> hello
14:51:43 <Vorpal> while it is quite easy to write a Makefile that fails with -j2 or such, I wonder if you can write one that fails *without* -j2.
14:52:00 <Vorpal> and that works reliably with -j2
14:52:23 <Vorpal> I mean, if you only wanted to make it work *sometimes* with -j2, and never without -j it would be rather trivial.
15:07:57 <Ilari> How could such makefile even be constructed? It would have to contain race condition or unstated dependency...
15:11:28 <Ilari> And that kind of stuff tends to make it nondeterministic...
15:12:56 <Ilari> ... Unless the executables do some bizarre stuff...
15:13:24 <Ilari> But then the makefile would probably lock up if run without -j2...
15:14:35 <Vorpal> hm
15:15:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, well it could build and run an executable that checked /proc/<pid of parent>/<whatever> for command line
15:15:52 <Vorpal> cheating though
15:18:23 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Stackmill
15:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, has ineiros updated the server yet?
15:50:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I know it worked yesterday morning yes
15:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ...and, I just died.
15:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> In lava.
15:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> With my full inventory.
15:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Due to a bug.
15:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Effing Notch.
15:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the advice I was given by the intel-gfx people to fix my graphics drivers has resulted in them being stupid with normal-maps.
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16:10:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was the bug exiting a minecraft by breaking it?
16:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes.
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16:11:03 <Vorpal> oh wait, you been away, ehird complained about it too
16:11:50 <Vorpal> btw, wrote guide for how to get a h8300-hitachi-hms cross toolchain working on modern Linux.
16:11:58 <Vorpal> if anyone needs that I could upload it somewhere
16:12:19 <Vorpal> (you need quite a few patches to make it build and work on recent systems)
16:13:04 <Vorpal> people who might care: Anyone who has a Lego RCX and want to write C code for it (custom firmware).
16:26:14 <Vorpal> anyway http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/lego/rcx-toolchain-guide/guide.html
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16:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hi
16:34:43 <elliott> hi
16:34:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where did that happen btw?
16:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, an MC bug ate my inventory!
16:34:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think removing the lava below might help
16:35:08 <Vorpal> elliott, he is talking about the hitting minecraft bug
16:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, erm... IIRC it was the subtree end of the subtree-crossroads link.
16:35:37 <elliott> The spawn is a lie.
16:35:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's happened to me. Several times.
16:35:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Get out of your cart before hitting it, it's all that helps.
16:35:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, crossroad being the tunnel to fizzie's?
16:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes.
16:36:06 <Vorpal> right
16:42:12 <Vorpal> why is it so laggy
16:42:32 <elliott> Hoover Heavy Industries accepts no responsibility for anyone who is heavy, or industrious. That is all.
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16:43:01 <Vorpal> elliott, are you behind the lagginess?
16:43:18 <elliott> I suspect the server is torrenting.
16:43:26 <Vorpal> hm
16:43:28 <Vorpal> well it is down now
16:43:36 <elliott> Or else the beta is really so bad that three people is too much work.
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16:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, in other news, the Xorg Intel graphics developers have failed me!
16:43:47 <Vorpal> ineiros_, what is going on?
16:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, were you doing something strange when it went down?
16:44:09 <Vorpal> (or PH)
16:44:17 <elliott> Vorpal: No.
16:44:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop asking.
16:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I was heading northwards, towards ineiros..
16:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell is that thing.
16:44:49 <elliott> (If it were an HHI activity, it would be secret anyway, so there is no point in asking; but lagging the server is not good for business, so that is extremely unlikely.)
16:44:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What thing.
16:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The crenellated wall, with torches.
16:45:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pic?
16:45:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I was looking at it when the server failed
16:45:18 <elliott> Pic would be nice :P
16:45:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't have one, but if you went towards ineiros' fortress from spawn you'd've seen it.
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17:17:53 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: mcmap bug report: planting a sapling: "[DIED] protocol.c: 361: Unknown packet id: 0x40 (dir 2)"
17:17:58 <elliott> I'm
17:17:59 <elliott> oops
17:18:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't dig into the protocol stuff mostly; fizzie's your man there.
17:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, ah oka[DIED] protocol.c: 361: Unknown packet id: 0x40 (dir 2)y
17:18:24 <Vorpal> gah
17:18:30 * Vorpal STABS SYNERGY
17:18:34 <elliott> Oka[DIED] protocol.c: 361: Unknown packet id: 0x40 (dir 2)y yourself.
17:18:39 <Vorpal> elliott, okay was what I said
17:18:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you tried that maintained fork of Synergy?
17:18:44 <Vorpal> but then I got a pseduo-paste
17:18:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I probably should
17:18:54 <elliott> "Synergy+ and Synergy have now combined efforts. Visit the new Synergy website."
17:18:55 <elliott> heh
17:19:03 <elliott> http://synergy-foss.org/
17:19:14 <elliott> "Synergy+ and Synergy have now merged! However, we'll still be using the old synergy-plus source code repository and mailing lists (just because there's no reason to migrate away). For those of you who are new: Synergy+ was started by Sorin Sbârnea and Nick Bolton in 2009 for the purpose of fixing bugs in the original version by Chris Schoeneman (which had temporarily paused development in 2006). Synergy+ and original Synergy have now combined e
17:19:14 <elliott> fforts for the benefit of the Open Source community."
17:19:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I use whatever is called synergy on in the package repo. And since one is ubuntu the other arch then it might cause issues
17:19:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Try http://synergy-foss.org/packages/?C=M;O=D.
17:19:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, will shortly
17:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Debian squeeze appears to still have old-Synergy, and links to the website which now says "lol go here instead".
17:19:57 <elliott> So heh.
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17:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Recovered my laptop from the idiotic hoard.
17:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *hoarde
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18:18:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They... took your laptop? And you didn't immediately kill them?
18:18:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, since I would have got in trouble for that.
18:19:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: Look at this: http://i.imgur.com/YF0nLl.jpg
18:19:09 <elliott> See sign.
18:19:13 <elliott> SEEMS IT'S A KNOWN BUG
18:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I locked the screen before I gave in, so they couldn't do anything.
18:19:24 <elliott> Notch Quality Engineering
18:19:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but how did they manage to get stuff into it?
18:20:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Dig into it, make space, put things there.
18:20:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Or, no, wait.
18:20:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm fairly sure that's a real hole.
18:20:36 <elliott> Disguised as an imaginary one.
18:20:40 <Vorpal> elliott, haha
18:20:53 <elliott> "hey! I made it last night :) I'm glad people enjoy it. I'ts supposed to look like a chunk error."
18:20:54 <elliott> Indeed.
18:23:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you loose connection? server said it was due to disconnect.genericReason on his side
18:23:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I closed the game :P
18:23:20 <elliott> Without disconnecting first.
18:23:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how?
18:23:22 <Vorpal> ah
18:23:32 <elliott> To watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCJeUvqFuA0.
18:23:39 <elliott> The music was getting in the way.
18:26:23 <Vorpal> elliott, he has an issue, all won't go off at once (you need something like redstone activation to get all to start counting down at once)
18:26:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Doesn't matter, it worked anyway (and impressive result)
18:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have a convenient link to a rant on the "This page is best viewed with <condition>." things you see everywhere?
18:27:00 <elliott> Vorpal: You'll notice a familiar figure when he reconnects :P
18:27:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/
18:28:06 <j-invariant> the explosion was cool
18:28:37 <j-invariant> the water in minecraft it not realistic
18:29:16 <elliott> j-invariant: you can generate infinite water from a 2x2 pool
18:29:19 <elliott> because of PHYSICS!
18:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's the familiar figure?
18:29:44 <elliott> It looks like the statue of liberty :P
18:29:51 <elliott> I thought it was intentional but maybe not.
18:29:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You'll notice a familiar figure when he reconnects :P <-- hm?
18:30:00 <elliott> See above.
18:30:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Obsidian is banned because it takes too long to destroy" "Fire is banned because it can crash clients" "Lava is banned because it can lag the server." "Water is banned because it can lag the server." "Ice is banned because it creates water when destroyed" "TNT is banned because it lags the server."
18:30:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Reddit Minecraft server -- you can, like, put GRASS and WOOD and COBBLES down!
18:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, they're a public, high-visibility server.
18:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> What'd you *expect*?
18:31:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They've /banned water/.
18:31:29 <elliott> I have never seen that before.
18:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, but what about natural water and lava?
18:32:18 <elliott> Vorpal: DON'T LOOK AT IT
18:32:25 <Vorpal> or did they remove it?
18:32:30 <elliott> I doubt it :P
18:32:36 <Vorpal> bbl
18:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can I expand the HHI research facility?
18:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Fine.
18:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Provided there are no externally-visible alterations to Mt. Hoover
18:33:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There won't be. Well, unless I accidentally dig to the outside.
18:53:40 <j-invariant> oh geez you have to play minecraft in browser...
18:54:08 <elliott> j-invariant: um no
18:54:13 <elliott> j-invariant: just download the .jar
18:54:22 <elliott> nobody plays in browser ... partly because nothign works with it
18:54:26 <elliott> i don't even think you can use texture packs in-browser
18:54:31 <elliott> http://minecraft.net/download/Minecraft.jar?v=1293389628306
18:54:47 <elliott> that's if you've paid ofc
18:54:51 <elliott> classic is browser-only
18:55:16 <j-invariant> ...
18:55:21 <elliott> ?
18:55:35 <j-invariant> I don't want to buy it, I don't even know if it works
18:55:52 <elliott> j-invariant: pirate it and see? :p
18:56:01 <j-invariant> :S
18:56:13 <elliott> j-invariant: it does work though ...
18:56:17 <elliott> at least on debian and i know plenty of players on ubuntu
18:56:37 <j-invariant> it's just, I was trying it in browser. No wonder /that/ doesn't work
18:56:58 <elliott> you mean Classic in browser?
18:57:01 <elliott> yeah that doesn't work for me either
18:57:04 <elliott> i just get a black screen
18:57:06 <elliott> Alpha works perfectly though
18:57:46 <ineiros_> You need the Sun's (still can't get myself to say Oracle's) JVM for it to work.
18:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, "perfectly" is a relative term.
18:58:08 <elliott> ineiros_: I use OpenJDK.
18:58:11 <elliott> ineiros_: So, nope.
18:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "Notch" and "perfectly" are not words which fit comfortably together.
18:58:16 <elliott> Oh, for it = ClassiC?
18:58:17 <elliott> *Classic?
18:58:21 <elliott> Alpha works with OpenJDK for me at least.
18:58:25 <elliott> Faster than Whoracle's.
18:58:33 <ineiros_> elliott: Whoa, you got it to work with that?
18:58:59 <elliott> ineiros_: Yes. It didn't work at first, but now it does and it's faster than Sun's./
18:59:28 <elliott> ineiros_: http://sprunge.us/GJET Those are my packages (on Debian testing).
18:59:47 <elliott> My launch script:
18:59:50 <elliott> #!/bin/sh
18:59:50 <elliott> exec java -Xmx2048M -Xms1024M -cp "$(dirname "$0")/launcher.jar" net.minecraft.LauncherFrame
18:59:58 <ineiros_> elliott: Yes, being faster is no surprise. But at least the previous versions didn't work. I have to try that when I get my new system.
19:00:02 <elliott> ineiros_: I think maybe you have to use Sun the first time and then it works.
19:00:13 <elliott> ineiros_: Like, maybe the initial log-in only works with Sunnnnnnnn's.
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19:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Wrong language. It's a shame for me that C isn't used so much these days for applications.]]
19:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> —An idiot.
19:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that the wrong language is Objective-C.
19:42:25 <elliott> Context?
19:45:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3216&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
19:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the many threads where someone turns up to the Oolite boards and says "Hey, let's make this an MMO!"
19:47:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Except this time the very well-founded reasons for not doing so are shrugged aside, and the person ploughs on regardless.
19:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Highlights include the word "fidicurially".
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19:50:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
19:51:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I can tell "fidicurially" is not a word, does it context let you figure out the intended meaning of it? (If so: what is it?)
19:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he meant "fiduciary".
19:52:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a word I have to admit I'm not familiar with either
19:52:47 * Vorpal looks it up
19:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Monetary?
19:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> English: the Perl of human languages.
19:53:34 <j-invariant> elliott: thoughts on functor equality?
19:53:38 <Vorpal> "a person who holds assets in trust for a beneficiary; "it is illegal for a fiduciary to misappropriate money for personal gain""
19:53:39 <Vorpal> hm
19:54:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no doubt there are weird words like this in Swedish too, some that I know, some that I don't
19:54:28 <elliott> j-invariant: does it work? if so it's good :P
19:54:31 <j-invariant> elliott: so a functor F:C-->D maps objects of C into D like X:C |- FX : D, but also maps maps like f : X --> Y |- Ff : FX --> FY
19:55:05 <j-invariant> elliott: I did manage to define it earlier but the proof is horrific. Hoping to simplify it
19:55:40 <elliott> that would be nice
19:56:34 <j-invariant> elliott: this time I define it like F = F' when we have an isomorphism i between FX and F'X, and (dependent pair) Ff . pi1 iso Y = pi1 iso X . F'f
19:57:33 <j-invariant> elliott: http://coq.pastebin.com/nFRZJ7cR
19:58:12 <j-invariant> elliott: even with the proof machine on my side it's not looking good :/ line 580
19:59:43 <elliott> yeah that looks scary
20:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, aaaaaaa
20:07:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:08:20 <Vorpal> j-invariant, what are you trying to prove today?
20:08:59 <Vorpal> ineiros_, elliott: is the server about to be hmodified or has it recently been?
20:09:18 <j-invariant> Vorpal: I just want to show that '=' is an equivalence relation
20:09:43 <Vorpal> j-invariant, doesn't coq has that in the its standard library or such?
20:09:51 <j-invariant> no it's my own definition
20:10:33 <Vorpal> j-invariant, how does the standard library do then?
20:10:36 <Vorpal> do it*
20:10:57 <j-invariant> I don't use that library here
20:14:21 <fizzie> ineiros_: I've used OpenJDK and OpenJDK only, and I've actually told you this.
20:14:54 <Vorpal> j-invariant, yeah but is it as messy as the way you do it?
20:15:07 <Vorpal> (well not sure it is messy, but you seemed to imply that)
20:15:19 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a totally different structure. so.
20:15:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw saw what I said above about mcmap crashing on placing a sapling?
20:15:22 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
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20:16:32 <j-invariant> I need to prove Ff o fgX = fgY o Gf, Gf o ghY = ghX o Hf |- Ff o (fgY o ghY) = (fgX o ghX) o Hf
20:17:21 <j-invariant> first step is to change the goal into (Ff o fgY) o ghY = fgX o (ghX o Hf). Then you can use the hypothesis
20:19:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, been away. I'll take a look at some point, still more christmasy things to do first though.
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20:23:12 <fizzie> 0x40 is not a (wiki-)known packet type, so it probably has just gotten desynchronized again.
20:23:20 <j-invariant> I need a decision producedure that does rewrites, not just associativity
20:23:26 <j-invariant> elliott: :)
20:23:26 <elliott> j-invariant: I think I have a better structure for algebraic things now.
20:23:32 <j-invariant> oh neat
20:23:33 <j-invariant> how does it work?
20:23:37 <elliott> Definition is_ring S plus plus0 times times1 :=
20:23:37 <elliott> is_pseudo_ring S plus plus0 times /\
20:23:37 <elliott> is_monoid S times times1.
20:23:38 <elliott> like that
20:23:53 <elliott> then e.g. integers are the ring (Z,+,0,*,1)
20:24:16 <j-invariant> that could work actually
20:25:10 <elliott> yeah, unfortunately I think there may be one issue
20:25:17 <elliott> Definition is_pseudo_ring S plus plus0 times :=
20:25:17 <elliott> is_abelian_group S plus plus0 /\
20:25:17 <elliott> is_semigroup S times.
20:25:18 <elliott> Definition is_ring S plus plus0 times times1 :=
20:25:18 <elliott> is_pseudo_ring S plus plus0 times /\
20:25:18 <elliott> is_monoid S times times1.
20:25:24 <elliott> you might have to prove (S,*) is a semigroup /twice/
20:25:26 <elliott> because of that
20:25:27 <elliott> but maybe not
20:26:57 <j-invariant> what about having
20:27:20 <j-invariant> Definition is_pseduo_ring S plus plus0 times semigroupPrf := is_abelian_group S plus plus0.
20:28:14 <j-invariant> in fact, you could just have is_pseudo_ring ... := True. because it takes both proofs as arguments
20:28:35 <elliott> j-invariant: nah, because
20:28:40 <elliott> j-invariant: then you have to do "eapply"
20:28:42 <elliott> which doesn't really work
20:28:44 <elliott> this is much easier to prove
20:28:45 <elliott> also,
20:28:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm...
20:28:48 <elliott> Theorem Z_ring : is_ring Z Zplus 0%Z Zmult 1%Z.
20:28:54 <elliott> and then having is_ring -> is_lower_thing
20:28:56 <elliott> is much nicer to do IMO
20:29:00 <j-invariant> okay
20:29:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, if it got desynced... well I was just working on my tree farm before
20:29:29 <Vorpal> cutting down trees and so on
20:29:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I believe PH just parted a second before or so. I don't know if he rejoined again
20:29:56 <elliott> j-invariant: man, omega can't prove (a*b*c) = (a*(b*c)) in Z
20:29:57 <elliott> how stupid si that
20:29:58 <elliott> *is
20:31:33 -!- calamari has joined.
20:31:38 <calamari> hi
20:32:54 <elliott> hi
20:33:01 <elliott> j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/ECba includes (really simple!) proof that stdlib Z is a ring
20:33:27 <elliott> j-invariant: erm it's duplicatd
20:33:30 <elliott> j-invariant: just cut everything after Qed.
20:35:54 <Sasha> "...[I]n 1902, the American company Hamilton Beach patented the first electric vibrator available for retail sale, making the vibrator the fifth domestic appliance to be electrified, after the sewing machine, fan, tea kettle, and toaster, and about a decade before the vacuum cleaner and electric iron."
20:38:24 <Vorpal> wrong channel?
20:38:36 <Vorpal> (or was it completely out of any context?)
20:38:57 <elliott> Isn't pasting things without context a CHANNEL TRADITION.
20:38:59 <Vorpal> s/out of/without/
20:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hm true
20:39:46 <Vorpal> elliott, btw if seems a sapling can grow if you stand on it, and you will suffocate then.
20:39:57 <elliott> Indeed.
20:40:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I have not yet hit that myself, but saw it on the wiki. Makes me a bit nervous about my tree farm
20:41:52 <j-invariant> this equivalence of functors is just not working
20:49:44 <tswett> elliott: omega the ordinal number? What does it mean for an ordinal number to prove a statement?
20:50:03 <elliott> tswett: Omega the tactic.
20:51:06 <tswett> Ah. Is it supposed to be a tactic that figures stuff out automatically?
20:52:03 <elliott> tswett: Yes. :p
20:52:12 <elliott> tswett: I forget the exact solver it uses.
21:05:46 <elliott> j-invariant: I think I have up to integral domains
21:17:29 <j-invariant> oh yeah try fields
21:18:17 <j-invariant> elliott: see eq_functors_lemma1 and 2. http://coq.pastebin.com/HRiZqtC9
21:18:26 <elliott> <j-invariant> oh yeah try fields
21:18:28 <elliott> NOT RIGHT NOW :D
21:18:30 <elliott> too much pain
21:18:40 <elliott> j-invariant: that first lemma is the ... wow.
21:18:48 <elliott> the second is even more wow.
21:19:06 <j-invariant> I just copy the proof state and turn it into a lemma
21:19:37 <j-invariant> they are very simple theorems, it's just proving them takes a lot of effort and typing..
21:20:07 <j-invariant> but if I had a decision procedure that took equations of the form fg = id into account :(
21:20:22 <j-invariant> actually I don't think it would handle these
21:22:17 <j-invariant> elliott: but programming a solver that takes inverses into account is probably really hard
21:22:48 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:23:07 <elliott> j-invariant: you can make a lot of effort now and have it easy later ... or you can continually make a lot of slightly milder effort forever ... i usually do the latter :-)
21:23:25 -!- variable has joined.
21:23:32 <j-invariant> well I'm not even sure if throwing in inverses is still decidible
21:23:41 -!- invariable has joined.
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21:24:57 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:25:28 <elliott> variable: stop varying your name
21:25:52 <variable> elliott, I can't help it
21:25:54 <variable> :-)
21:26:00 * variable is variable
21:26:23 <j-invariant> maybe Knuth-Bendix
21:26:31 <j-invariant> but I don't know much about Knuth-Bendix
21:28:56 <elliott> variable: you haven't been here before have you? hi
21:30:10 <variable> elliott, I would hope I've been here before - you couldn't program without me :-)
21:30:20 <variable> also: hi
21:30:23 <elliott> variable: Sure you can!
21:30:28 <elliott> variable: Joy is Turing-complete.
21:30:40 <elliott> Technically it has top-level function definitions but you don't /need/ them.
21:30:45 <elliott> variable: BCT, also, has no variables.
21:30:53 <elliott> Heck, Brainfuck doesn't... but you could consider tape cells variables.
21:30:58 <elliott> *brainfuck
21:31:04 * variable googles
21:31:11 <elliott> variable: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT :)
21:31:34 <variable> elliott, BCT would be my next computer.... (my computer names are esoteric programming languages)
21:31:52 <elliott> Really? Ha
21:31:59 <elliott> "And over here we have brainfuck..."
21:32:52 <variable> So far I have AlphaBeta, Babbage, and ByteByte :-)
21:33:23 <elliott> fungot: say hi to variable
21:33:24 <fungot> elliott: i was doing hw instructions would be and., and in the alternative syntax for c
21:44:52 <j-invariant> elliott: help!
21:46:10 <elliott> j-invariant: ?
21:47:09 <Sgeo> Joy has no variab.. hmm, I guess that makes sense. Factor's variables are conveniences
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21:47:28 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Joy
21:47:46 <variable> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Joy doesn't exist
21:47:49 <Sgeo> Learning Factor might have been like learning an impure language instead of haskell for a first functional language
21:47:52 <Sgeo> Joy isn't esoteric
21:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
21:48:08 <elliott> Vorpal: no
21:48:25 <elliott> variable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_%28programming_language%29
21:48:29 <oerjan> variable: try Underload for the esoteric version :)
21:48:29 <elliott> variable: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy.html
21:48:31 <j-invariant> elliott: I need a way to prove these lemmas quickly
21:48:34 <elliott> Underload, yeah
21:48:39 <elliott> j-invariant: no idea, sorry :(
21:49:05 <Sgeo> Ok, Joy syntax is ugly to my eyes
21:49:37 <Sgeo> Although I'm just having an immediate knee-jerk reaction
21:49:42 <elliott> Joy is wonderful.
21:49:42 <Sgeo> I'm going to go AFK for a bit
21:49:52 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
21:49:54 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
21:49:59 <Vorpal> ineiros_, what the heck is going on with your connection?
21:50:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't need two concatenative languages competing for my heart
21:50:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and presumably also joyful
21:50:51 <j-invariant> elliott: maybe some way to extend the prover
21:51:54 <elliott> Sgeo: You'd hate Joy, it doesn't have aaaaaaaaaaaany libraries at all.
21:52:21 <Sgeo> Neither does LSL. Oh wait, I hate LSL (but for different reasons)
21:52:41 <Sgeo> Actually, that is an issue with LSL, come to think of it
21:54:50 <oerjan> ^ul (0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
21:54:50 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
21:55:07 <Sgeo> TIL that The Blue Valley has named parts
21:55:17 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=37685
21:56:03 <j-invariant> what program is good for playing s3m files?
21:56:17 <ineiros_> Vorpal: I may have used the connection again. Maybe I should try to setup some connection priorization at some point.
21:56:23 <Sgeo> j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUn9SYdPF4A&feature=related is the same thing fwiw
21:56:34 <Sgeo> But um... hm
21:56:36 <Sgeo> VLC?
21:57:39 <Sgeo> o.O http://www.aufgang.org/koch/homepage/music.asp
22:04:14 <Vorpal> ineiros_, well it seems completely lag spiky atm
22:05:50 <Vorpal> ineiros_, maybe you should give backup bulk priority or something?
22:06:13 <Vorpal> ineiros_, I'm giving up on mining obsidian atm
22:06:35 <fizzie> Well, xmp is one sensible app for s3m files.
22:06:44 <fizzie> For some values of sensible.
22:06:47 <Vorpal> ineiros_, connection lost
22:06:55 <fizzie> The mikmod player is pretty horrible.
22:09:19 <fizzie> VLC plays with ModPlug-derived code, I think.
22:10:09 <Vorpal> ineiros_, tell me when it is up?
22:10:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Or just wait.
22:10:36 <elliott> <Sgeo> o.O http://www.aufgang.org/koch/homepage/music.asp
22:10:37 <elliott> What?
22:11:50 <ineiros_> Should be up now.
22:28:27 <j-invariant> The ashes is on
22:30:44 <j-invariant> zzo: what are the rules
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22:56:32 <j-invariant> why would a .xm file be 30 MB?
22:56:50 <quintopia> 0_0
22:57:10 <quintopia> someone is using lots of very large samples
22:57:35 <j-invariant> oh wait it's only 4 MB, not sure what happened there
22:57:39 <j-invariant> maybe I just misread it
23:10:41 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ2BcvowYl8
23:10:52 * Sgeo gets AW nostalgia issues from seeing the stone path
23:11:27 <Sgeo> oh, it's not a play of the plot of Legend of Zelda?
23:11:28 <Sgeo> Meh
23:13:30 <j-invariant> I like the music
23:13:39 <Sgeo> Hmm, agreed
23:47:41 <fizzie> Maybe it was 30 megabits? That's close-ish to 4 MB.
23:47:48 <j-invariant> haha
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