←2010-12-26 2010-12-27 2010-12-28→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:31:51 <Sgeo> "J It is unbeatable if you have RSI and need to type as little characters as possible for a task that can be applied to a whole array."
00:33:42 <elliott> Ha ha it's funny because J programs are short?
00:35:34 <Sgeo> http://www.rfc1149.net/blog/2010/12/09/something-nice-about-every-language-i-use/
00:35:48 <Sgeo> Ha ha, it's the best thing the person could come up with to say about J
00:37:25 <Sgeo> I think I should learn Ada
00:43:46 <Sgeo> "The experienced C programmer will probably be a bit frustrated with the attention to details required by the Ada compiler. You will not have your favorite "tricks" available to fool the compiler into doing something out of the ordinary. The Ada compiler cannot be fooled."
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00:52:39 <Sgeo> Wow, some people really hate Ada
00:59:08 <Sgeo> Dear tutorial: Do you HAVE to use a sample program with deliberately horrible style to show an example Ada program?
00:59:12 <Sgeo> http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/chap02.htm
00:59:17 <Sgeo> http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/e_c02_p1.ada
00:59:38 <elliott> <Sgeo> I think I should learn Ada
00:59:42 <elliott> Why?
00:59:46 <elliott> It's one of the worst languages ever.
01:00:11 <Sgeo> From my understanding, it's mostly syntax issues?
01:00:27 <elliott> Much more than that.
01:01:39 <Sgeo> It does seem to have SOME supporters. Not many.
01:02:09 <Sgeo> I got this idea that it's a good language for safety assurances
01:02:17 <elliott> Sgeo: The human extinction movement has supporters, so do Republicans.
01:04:08 <j-invariant> http://www.vhemt.org/ whnat the fuck?
01:04:33 <j-invariant> they just want to decrease the number of people, not go exitinct
01:04:57 <Sgeo> j-invariant, some of them do want humanity to go extinct
01:05:35 <Sgeo> They make a distinction between those who support extinction and those who just want to see the human population decrease significantly
01:06:08 <j-invariant> ahh
01:06:16 <j-invariant> it's an important difference!
01:06:19 <Sgeo> They compare humanity to cancer
01:06:28 <Sgeo> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4369876000541116073#
01:07:52 <Sgeo> About the difference: http://www.vhemt.org/ecology.htm#whyv
01:08:09 <Sgeo> "Q: Why extinction? Why not just get our population down to a sustainable size?
01:08:09 <Sgeo> VHEMT Supporters favor this goal, while Volunteers see extinction as the only sure way to avoid breeding ourselves back to todays density."
01:10:48 <j-invariant> doesn't really make sense to call yourself a member of Human Extinction Movement in that case :/
01:18:35 <elliott> j-invariant: VHEMT is very stupid
01:18:41 <elliott> hardly worth expecting consistency of them
01:19:04 <elliott> "the best solution to overpopulation is lack of population!"
01:19:40 <elliott> also it would (probably) leave the planet without any sentience which is /very/ stupid
01:20:06 <elliott> ineiros_: The spawn protection area is waaay too big.
01:20:07 <j-invariant> why?
01:20:09 <Sgeo> I remember on the news seeing some environmental cleanup program that was projected to take 99 years.
01:20:12 <elliott> j-invariant: why what?
01:20:17 * Sgeo wonders what VHEMT thinks of that
01:20:39 <j-invariant> why should earth be sentient?
01:20:39 <elliott> j-invariant: why would it be bad to be without sentience, you mean?
01:21:01 <j-invariant> yes
01:21:13 <elliott> j-invariant: I hold sentience to be intrinsically valuable.
01:21:20 <j-invariant> based on what?
01:21:31 <elliott> j-invariant: It's an axiom.
01:21:39 <elliott> What's ZFC based on?
01:21:40 <j-invariant> :(
01:22:00 <elliott> (At least "sentience is valuable" is a lot less likely to be inconsistent than ZFC...)
01:24:47 <j-invariant> btw, if eta : F --> G is a natural transformation for functors F,G : C --> D. Then X : C |- etaX : FX --> GX
01:25:28 <j-invariant> I need some 'respectfulness' condition on it like X = X' -> etaX = etaX'
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01:26:20 <elliott> j-invariant: i think i'm going to link to your file in #epigram and ask them what it looks like in epigram 2 >:)
01:26:21 * elliott troll
01:26:30 <j-invariant> wait let me paste it
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01:26:47 <Vorpal> elliott, see bug report for mcmap on mc
01:29:19 <elliott> Vorpal: "too much work for way too little gain"
01:29:26 <elliott> i.e. something dereferences it and i can't figure out what because of glib :)
01:29:29 <Vorpal> 02:28:24 [CHAT] <ehird> Woot, now it segfaults.
01:29:29 <Vorpal> 02:28:26 [CHAT] ehird left the game.
01:29:29 <Vorpal> 02:28:30 [CHAT] <BCxVAhWQxi> heh
01:29:29 <Vorpal> 02:28:48 [CHAT] <BCxVAhWQxi> ehird quality engineering
01:29:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
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01:29:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Technically it didn't segfault.
01:29:45 <elliott> It just closed the map window.
01:30:06 <j-invariant> that's the lastest http://coq.pastebin.com/cxeeG9qt
01:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that statement still applies
01:30:46 <elliott> j-invariant: i can't bring myself to do it, they're too nice, the epigram folk
01:33:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it be trolling to ask that?
01:33:55 <elliott> Vorpal: hehe... epigram is (sort of (kind of)) entirely vapourware ... more specifically they have an implementation but Epigram Itself: The User Language isn't on top of it yet
01:34:37 <Vorpal> so you would just get a "no idea yet"?
01:34:51 <elliott> Vorpal: More likely "oh, go away"
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01:35:56 <zzo38> How simple is it to make a electronic circuit for receiving a call display information?
01:37:44 <j-invariant> elliott: but I'm not sure how to define Component_respectful
01:38:31 <elliott> j-invariant: heck if I know :D
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01:38:48 <j-invariant> :p
01:38:56 <elliott> have you ever used idris?
01:39:00 <j-invariant> no
01:39:19 <elliott> hm
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01:42:00 * elliott starts thinking about his old transaction type
01:46:42 <elliott> Transaction ok? transformed? after-ok? result
01:46:42 <elliott> A function -- given a world W that satisfies (ok? W), and a
01:46:42 <elliott> continuation that takes a world s.t. (transformed? W), and a
01:46:42 <elliott> value of type result, and returns a new world W',
01:46:42 <elliott> s.t. (after-ok? W'), returns the new world W'.
01:46:43 <elliott> Transaction (\_ -> True) (\w -> fileIsOpenInWorld? filename w) (\w -> fileIsClosedInWorld? filename w) File
01:46:46 <elliott> really ugly though ...
01:46:51 <elliott> I wonder if it reduces to some elegant thing when strippe ddown
01:46:56 <elliott> *stripped down
01:47:13 <elliott> (that would be the result of "openFile" given a filename)
01:47:52 <elliott> (readCharFromFile, given a filename, would look something like "Transaction (\w -> fileIsOpenInWorld? filename w) (\_ -> True) (\_ -> True) Char")
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01:48:14 <elliott> (then ofc you'd have to prove that the file is open in the world at type-checking time, which could probably be done automatically in most cases)
01:49:09 <j-invariant> seems pretty complicated
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01:49:47 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah it is but I think the "core" of it is pretty simple
01:50:12 <j-invariant> that#s the important thoing
01:50:31 <elliott> j-invariant: you want a certain value, and also a world which satisfies a relevant condition; to get it, you must give it a world that satisfies /its/ (the transaction's) relevant condition, and also show that the world at the end will be acceptable to it
01:50:38 <elliott> for instance, opening a file without closing it is a type error in this system
01:50:43 <elliott> because of the postcondition in openFile
01:50:58 <elliott> it's basically just "IO result" except really-overly-typed
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01:52:17 <elliott> i wish oklopol would come back
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01:58:25 <j-invariant> elliott: how do you find out about VEHMT?
01:58:39 <elliott> um it's pretty well-known, dunno how i heard of it
01:58:47 <j-invariant> had not heard of it
01:59:13 <Sgeo__> Chrome's been acting up lately
01:59:19 <Sgeo__> I'm tempted to switch back to Opera
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02:26:15 <elliott> s[99],*r=s,*d,c;main(a,b){char*v=1[d=b];for(;c=*v++%93;)for(b=c&2,b=c%7?a&&(c&17?c&1?(*r+=b-1):(r+=b-1):syscall(4-!b,b,r,1),0):v;b&&c|a**r;v=d)main(!c,&a);d=v;}
02:26:22 <elliott> I wonder if this has been beaten yet.
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02:37:16 <Mathnerd314> I wonder if it could be beaten by Haskell
02:38:09 <Mathnerd314> probably too much looping though :-/
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02:38:47 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: http://www.jaist.ac.jp/~hirokawa/tool/
02:41:12 <Mathnerd314> GHC is a rewriting tool? news to me :p
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02:47:03 <elliott> <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: http://www.jaist.ac.jp/~hirokawa/tool/
02:47:05 <elliott> what is that
02:47:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: do you know what it does, though?
02:47:57 <Mathnerd314> something like "glorious glasgow haskell compiler"...
02:48:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i mean the c progam
02:48:11 <elliott> *program
02:48:42 <Mathnerd314> it's obviously a brainfuck interpreter (just ask google)
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02:56:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, your wonders of the world looks blown up
02:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, was it you?
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02:57:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, HUGE hole, several exhibits broken
02:58:29 <Vorpal> who was that /bastard/
02:58:40 <quintopia> watching a binary counter count up is quite hypnotic
02:59:41 <Mathnerd314> Vorpal: link?
03:01:23 <Vorpal> Mathnerd314, on minecraft
03:02:24 * Mathnerd314 suddenly deeplinking into other people's computers
03:03:33 <Mathnerd314> (not)
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03:11:11 <Sgeo__> Can't really vandalize other's stuff on AW!
03:11:15 <Sgeo__> >.>
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03:22:20 <elliott> back
03:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, was it you?
03:24:45 <Sgeo__> I know what I'm going to write my 7 page paper about
03:24:49 <elliott> Vorpal: ?
03:24:51 <Sgeo__> Misplaced trust
03:25:16 <Vorpal> elliott, someone blew up Deewiant's "wonders of the world"
03:25:17 <Sgeo__> Includes everything from SQL Injections and XSS attacks to social engineering
03:25:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect you or PH
03:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: o_O
03:25:46 <Vorpal> elliott, no one else would do it
03:25:55 <Sgeo__> Blew up? With an explosion, or mining it out?
03:26:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Was it the TNT room or something?
03:26:19 <elliott> I can imagine people blowing that up accidentally ... but then I'm me.
03:26:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the TNT room. but it had a huge radius
03:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, it more or less cut the building in half
03:26:38 <Vorpal> across it
03:26:52 <elliott> Sure it wasn't a chunk loading error? :p
03:26:52 <Sgeo__> This doesn't happen in AW =P
03:26:58 <Vorpal> elliott, yes...
03:27:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it had no straight edgers
03:27:06 <Vorpal> edges
03:27:14 <elliott> It was a joke.
03:27:20 <Vorpal> right
03:27:36 <Vorpal> elliott, whoever it was, I suggest we all help in rebuilding the other walls at least
03:27:43 <Vorpal> and the rock below it
03:27:49 <Sgeo__> I'd help if I was in minecraft
03:27:54 <elliott> I think I have some snow left.
03:27:56 <Sgeo__> And didn't have a 7 page paper to write
03:27:56 <elliott> I'll come see. :/
03:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you know coordinates for teleporting?
03:28:05 <Vorpal> err sec
03:28:11 <Sgeo__> Hmm, are there any topics in computer security that don't come down to misplaced trust?
03:28:11 <Vorpal> elliott, armour-friendly or near?
03:28:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Near.
03:28:33 <Vorpal> -717, 928
03:28:40 <elliott> Starting MC ...
03:28:41 <Sgeo__> Protecting from natural disasters I guess. Or could that be "Misplaced trust in God" >.>
03:29:00 <elliott> Reflections on Trusting Trusting Trust.
03:29:03 <elliott> Holy shit what is *that*.
03:29:14 <elliott> (not there yet)
03:29:25 <elliott> oh wheat
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03:39:01 <elliott> ///goto -717 928
03:39:03 <elliott> oops
03:39:04 <elliott> //goto -717 928
03:40:58 * Sgeo__ laffs at elliott
03:41:07 <elliott> what
03:41:25 <Sgeo__> oh, it wasn't you accidentally inputting into IRC twice
03:45:16 <Mathnerd314> "oh wheat" <- awesome
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03:53:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: wat
03:54:00 <Mathnerd314> I'm going to say "oh wheat" whenever I see something surprising
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04:02:31 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ah. in this case it was actually wheat.
04:04:22 <Sgeo__> Is wheat useful? Do you need to eat to live in MC?
04:04:58 <elliott> Yes. No.
04:05:10 <elliott> (Although that will be an option in the final game.)
04:06:29 <Sgeo__> I am going to be a gibbering idiot by the end of the night
04:07:10 <elliott> Sgeo__: Why.
04:07:20 <Sgeo__> 7 page research paper
04:07:20 <j-invariant> newtons second law
04:07:25 <elliott> Sgeo__: OH NO A WHOLE SEVEN PAGE
04:07:25 <elliott> S
04:07:32 <Sgeo__> Trying to get it done before my professor wakes up
04:07:55 <Sgeo__> Also, I didn't even start on it
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04:15:59 <Mathnerd314> what's it about? maybe you can distribute it
04:18:24 <Sgeo__> Cryptography and Computer Security
04:18:32 <Sgeo__> I think I'll talk about misplaced trust
04:18:37 <Sgeo__> Which is incredibly broad
04:19:09 <elliott> in security, all trust is misplaced.
04:20:40 <Sgeo__> Can't really afford not to trust the compiler, though. The risk is somewhat small, but the lengths that would need to be gone through to migitate that risk
04:20:46 <Sgeo__> Same with hardware
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04:21:15 <Sgeo__> Unless you're Wikileaks and you foolishly accept hardware from the U.S. Gov't or something
04:22:29 <elliott> <Sgeo__> Can't really afford not to trust the compiler, though. The risk is somewhat small, but the lengths that would need to be gone through to migitate that risk
04:22:38 <elliott> Sgeo__: http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/
04:22:40 <elliott> Sgeo__: trusting trust has been solved.
04:23:08 <elliott> the risk is somewhat large, actually; Trusting Trust was (thought to be) the only truly unbreakable hack
04:26:17 <Sgeo__> Does anyone actually do it?
04:27:16 <Sgeo__> How do you determine if something is bit-for-bit identical?
04:27:17 <elliott> Sgeo__: Um, you don't do it if you don't strongly distrust your machine.
04:27:44 <elliott> <Sgeo__> How do you determine if something is bit-for-bit identical?
04:27:52 <elliott> Sgeo__: You could use the second, trusted compiler it mentions to write a program to do so.
04:28:43 <variable> elliott, have you read Double Computing
04:28:48 <variable> to counter trusting trust
04:28:52 <elliott> <elliott> Sgeo__: http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/
04:28:54 <elliott> it's Double Compiling
04:28:56 <elliott> and that's what the link is
04:29:06 <variable> oh wait - you were describing that
04:29:10 <elliott> Diverse Double Compiling technically
04:29:11 <elliott> yeah :)
04:29:18 <variable> I don't get why its so good
04:29:30 <variable> its OBVIOUS that if you have a second trusted compiler you could defeat the attack
04:29:37 <elliott> variable: no, it's not that obvious
04:29:45 <variable> but how do you gain that trust?
04:30:01 <variable> elliott, why not?
04:30:09 <elliott> because it's about compiling the _compiler_
04:30:17 <elliott> variable: you can ultimately trust your own software.
04:30:34 <elliott> if you're not interested in going that far, you can trust something that isn't yourself. but that is more trustworthy than your untrusted box.
04:31:31 <variable> elliott, if I have a compiler which I trust which compiles source code which I trust which is a compiler then I could use that second compiler to compile other programs without fear
04:31:32 <variable> correct?
04:31:47 <elliott> variable: no. not if you don't trust the system library
04:31:55 <elliott> variable: anyway, the point is that -
04:32:01 <elliott> variable: the system programs are compiled with the untrusted compiler
04:32:05 <elliott> you want to know: is the system compromised?
04:32:08 <elliott> DDC lets you check.
04:32:21 <elliott> it isn't about compiling programs you can trust, it's about /seeing whether the system is trustable/
04:32:27 <variable> elliott, ah ok
04:32:33 <variable> that makes about 100x more sense now
04:32:41 <Sgeo__> How can a trusted compiler on an untrusted system be trusted?
04:32:49 <Sgeo__> Static-linking only, etc?
04:34:20 <elliott> Sgeo__: just write everything yourself
04:34:33 <elliott> Sgeo__: the only syscalls you need are "read from standard input" and "write to standard output" pretty much
04:34:51 <elliott> if write("yes") gives "no" you can easily test for that :-P
04:36:55 <j-invariant> great now i have a comma category
04:37:13 <Sgeo__> Karma karma karma karma chameleon
04:37:44 <Sgeo__> *karma
04:39:39 <elliott> j-invariant: what's that one?
04:40:28 <j-invariant> elliott: I have no idea..
04:40:32 <elliott> lol
04:41:21 <j-invariant> you have functors A --F--> C <--G-- B and the comma category F,G is sort of like generalized commutative squares with maps being C-maps and B-maps in parallel
04:42:10 <j-invariant> you can define natural transforms in terms of it, and also the category of cones
04:42:36 <j-invariant> the category of cones makes sense, but thats a really simplified specific case of the comma category
04:44:22 <Vorpal> night
04:45:45 * Sgeo__ vaguely onders if Sputnik is still in orbit
04:48:43 <coppro> win 48
04:49:01 <elliott> Sputnik 1 burned up on 4 January 1958, as it fell from orbit upon reentering Earth's atmosphere, after travelling about 60 million km (37 million miles) and spending 3 months in orbit.[5]
04:50:30 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/arthou$ make
04:50:31 <elliott> gfortran hello.f95 -o hello
04:50:31 <elliott> strip -s hello
04:50:31 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/arthou$ ./hello
04:50:31 <elliott> Hello, world!
04:50:32 <elliott> I wonder why the space.
04:55:42 <j-invariant> now I've broke the 1000 line mark http://coq.pastebin.com/7tueVQYx
04:55:48 <elliott> yay
04:55:51 <elliott> program hello
04:55:58 <elliott> write(*,"(A)") "Hello, world!"
04:55:59 <elliott> end program hello
04:56:10 <elliott> doesn't work ...
04:56:14 <elliott> A needs length after it
04:56:31 <j-invariant> desperately needing a better prover though
04:56:57 <elliott> write(*,"('Hello, world!')")
04:56:58 <elliott> that works, but ugh
04:58:00 <elliott> print '(A)', 'Hello, world!'
04:58:01 <elliott> tada
04:58:25 <elliott> can't make it a function though
05:00:11 <elliott> subroutine say(s)
05:00:11 <elliott> character s*(*)
05:00:11 <elliott> print '(A)', s
05:00:11 <elliott> end subroutine say
05:00:11 <elliott> program arthou
05:00:12 <elliott> call say('Hello, world!')
05:00:14 <elliott> end program arthou
05:00:16 <elliott> there
05:01:27 <j-invariant> know a good text for Knuth Bendix?
05:02:24 <elliott> unfortunately not
05:05:33 <elliott> good night
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05:16:04 <variable> What is the requirements for adding a language to esolang ?
05:16:50 <quintopia> um
05:17:01 <quintopia> make sure it's well-specified
05:17:08 <quintopia> and/or hilarious
05:17:45 <variable> quintopia, ie - can I announce a new one (derivative of brainfuck) on it or should I announce it on a personal blog first?
05:18:31 <quintopia> go right ahead and post it
05:18:38 <quintopia> add it to the language list
05:18:41 <variable> alright
05:19:02 <quintopia> and make sure you put it in the brainfuck derivatives category so we know not to bother reading it :P
05:19:08 <variable> quintopia, heh
05:19:42 <quintopia> no i'll probably read it to see if it adds anything brilliant
05:20:03 <variable> its brainfuck with one extra operator "~" which changes the value at the program counter by the amount at the stack pointer to allow for self modifying programs
05:20:05 <variable> nothing special
05:21:08 <Sgeo__> program counter... it can only self modify at ~ points?
05:21:22 <quintopia> stack pointer?
05:21:37 <quintopia> the bracket stack?
05:21:54 <variable> Sgeo__, yes
05:22:30 <quintopia> oh
05:22:36 <quintopia> you mean the data pointer
05:22:38 <quintopia> got it
05:22:57 <quintopia> it changes it to the pointed to value? or adds it?
05:23:02 <variable> adds
05:23:15 <quintopia> hmm
05:23:23 <variable> hrm - I just thought of a better idea
05:23:38 <quintopia> yeah that sounds like a silly thing to do
05:23:54 <quintopia> self-modifying brainfuck already does full self-modificatin
05:24:03 <variable> quintopia, it already exists?
05:24:13 * variable couldn't find it
05:24:22 <quintopia> well yeah...every variant of bf already exists :P
05:24:26 <Sgeo__> Hey, maybe we could do research into finite and limited self modification
05:24:49 <Sgeo__> Maybe, like the way there are classes of computational complexity, such as TC, there are classes of self-modifyingness
05:24:50 <quintopia> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Self-modifying_Brainfuck
05:25:26 <variable> :-}
05:26:43 <Sgeo__> Sounds difficult to write code to manipulate what you want and when
05:27:11 <Sgeo__> First step for convenience might be shifing everything over for easy..wait that would modify the source
05:27:19 <Sgeo__> Oh! In the source code, include markers
05:27:21 <quintopia> Sgeo__: i suspect that like TCness, it will be hard to limit it in such a way that creates an in-between class between trivial self-modification (aka, the ~ thing that only changes a command once to something else) and full on self-modification where the entire continuation can be replaced by something else
05:27:56 <Sgeo__> Well, ~ is already nicely in between the full thing and no self-mod
05:28:00 <Sgeo__> So it's a start
05:29:08 <quintopia> Sgeo__: it seems like it gives you no more flexibility than SMETANA's line-swapping paradigm does
05:29:21 <Sgeo__> quintopia, does it give less?
05:29:28 <Sgeo__> Because that in and of itself would be interesting IMO
05:29:29 <quintopia> i think it does actuually
05:29:33 <quintopia> but it's hard to tell
05:29:59 <Sgeo__> variable, please don't take this hard
05:30:06 <quintopia> because you can only change a ~ to something other than a ~ exactly once
05:30:15 <quintopia> whereas you can swap lines as many times as you want
05:30:24 <variable> Sgeo__, hrm ?
05:30:46 <Sgeo__> variable, the near uselessness of ~, I mean. Well, actually, it is useful as an object of study, so
05:30:53 <variable> Sgeo__, i recognized it wasn't exactly useful
05:31:06 <variable> I was using it so the user could modify the program
05:31:11 <variable> with input
05:31:20 <variable> " Well, actually, it is useful as an object of study, so" --> how so?
05:31:27 <Sgeo__> variable, we're discussing it
05:31:32 <Sgeo__> That's what I meant
05:31:46 <Sgeo__> I think it's interesting, and want to keep exploring levels of self-mod
05:31:54 <Sgeo__> I also have a 7 page paper to write :/
05:31:59 <variable> on what topic?
05:32:10 * variable wants to get into theoretical comp sci
05:32:13 <Sgeo__> Cryptography and Computer Security
05:32:23 <variable> Sgeo__, oh right - the one you pushed off...
05:32:30 <variable> or someone here did :-
05:32:49 <Sgeo__> variable, me
05:33:08 <Sgeo__> I still have a non paper assignment in the same class
05:33:09 <Sgeo__> So
05:33:11 <Sgeo__> FUN
05:33:24 <variable> heh
05:33:31 <variable> my classes are thankfully ove
05:33:58 <quintopia> iei
05:36:28 <quintopia> i think the minimum change you need to BF to make it fully self-modifying is a ~ that appends the character under the data pointer to the program
05:38:19 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:38:33 <Sgeo__> Hmm, that raises the question of the definition of "fully"
05:39:03 <Sgeo__> In theory, old code stays forever part of the program, but you could rewrite everything and never be in the old code again
05:39:03 <quintopia> "the entire continuation can be replaced by something else"
05:39:10 <Sgeo__> right
05:39:56 <quintopia> i think that's a reasonable definition
05:40:35 <quintopia> a program is fully self-modifying if it can ever reach a point that it is executing only code that did not exist before it started running
05:41:23 <quintopia> (or rather, did not exist outside of the input /to/ the program)
05:43:09 <quintopia> it should also be true that the code that can be created in this way is fully as powerful as the language itself
05:43:40 <Sgeo__> quintopia, how does that tie in with halting
05:43:52 <quintopia> or else languages that let you add a bounded-time subset of the original code would qualify
05:44:03 <Sgeo__> e.g. added code doesn't return to the old code iff added code doesn't halt
05:44:09 <Sgeo__> (think eval())
05:44:37 <Sgeo__> Is that less powerful than full self-mod?
05:44:57 <Sgeo__> Wait, that depends if there's a HALT instruction, doesn't it?
05:45:13 <quintopia> Sgeo__: if the underlying language is capable of non-halting computations, any modified code should also be capable of not halting
05:45:32 <quintopia> s/any//
05:46:46 <quintopia> i think that one could prove existence of programs for which haltingness and return-to-pre-existing code are fully separable problems
05:47:12 <quintopia> aka, you can show that it will not return to pre-existing code even if you can't prove it will halt
05:47:35 <quintopia> although, maybe not for all fully self-modifying languages
05:47:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:48:35 <quintopia> in fact, i bet i could prove that there exist programs that one cannot prove whether or not it returns to pre-existing code
05:48:46 <quintopia> i'll have to think about it
05:50:51 -!- zzo38 has set topic: EGASSEMTERCESATONSISIHT | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
05:51:27 <quintopia> yes, it is zzo38. there is no way anyone could guess what that message says, so it must be secret.
05:52:28 <zzo38> quintopia: Are you sure?
05:53:10 <quintopia> alright i've got it. construct a program P that takes a program M and then does "GOTO 0" when it halts. Now pass it as input to a program Q that prints "RUNNING" and then appends the input code to its own code. Pass this program to your executes-preexisting-code-again decider
05:53:40 <quintopia> if the decider says it does, then it says M halts. if it says it doesn't then it says M does not halt
05:54:51 <quintopia> so... fully self-modifying as i defined it is not a decidable class.
05:55:11 <quintopia> alt. proof: apply rice's thm.
05:57:10 <Sgeo__> How is "pre-existing" defined?
05:57:18 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: it depends on how good one is at reading.
05:57:40 <Sgeo__> 1:00 I get to work
06:02:47 <quintopia> Sgeo__: "pre-existing"="invariant at program initialization irrespective of the input"
06:03:20 <Sgeo__> So, does self-modification without accepting input to determine the modifications not count as self-modifying?
06:03:51 <quintopia> i wouldn't consider it that, personally
06:03:53 <Mathnerd314> yes, because you can undo it into a normal program
06:03:58 <quintopia> ^
06:06:18 <quintopia> perhaps another way of defining it is in terms of a state machine: if it can create new states and has the potential of abandoning entirely the set of states it was initialized with
06:09:06 <Mathnerd314> what about a quine that copies itself and then executes on the copy?
06:11:05 <quintopia> i think i have a definition that reduces it to exactly what i'm trying to get at
06:13:15 <quintopia> a language is SM-complete if it is possible to create a program where there comes a point in its execution such that the entire continuation is dependent ONLY upon the contents of the input string and the contents of the program itself at initialization is completely irrelevant
06:16:50 <quintopia> (the quine program would not be such a program ad therefore says nothing about whether its underlying language is SM-complete)
06:26:13 <Mathnerd314> so... if one can write an interpreter in the language?
06:26:49 <zzo38> This is almost getting confusing...
06:28:15 <Sgeo__> quintopia, the contents of the program at initialization are what lets it self-modify
06:28:40 <Sgeo__> If you can have a program that doesn't use those features, then the language isn't SM-complete by your definition
06:28:55 <Sgeo__> afaict
06:29:29 <Sgeo__> Take Befunge/index.php, and make x the only legal program
06:29:34 <quintopia> Sgeo__: no, i said the entire /continuation/ at /some point in its execution/ is independent of the program at init
06:30:07 <Sgeo__> hmm
06:33:29 * Mathnerd314 thinks the entire concept of self-modification is a throwback to machine code and is otherwise useless
06:34:07 <Sgeo__> Mathnerd314, as useless as Brainfuck?
06:35:02 <Mathnerd314> "useless" in terms of not granting one any more power
06:35:08 <quintopia> ha
06:35:42 <quintopia> we should discuss how one could use it to grant one less power
06:35:57 <Sgeo__> Oooh
06:36:22 <Sgeo__> Can you have SM-complete yet still have the option to limit ... yeah, you shuld
06:36:25 <Sgeo__> should
06:37:11 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: maybe self-modification grants one no more power, and the same is surely true of introspection/reflection, but both can make a lot of programs a whole lot easier to write
06:38:29 <quintopia> Sgeo__: i suspect we could come up with a SM-complete language that that is only primitive recursive
06:39:03 <Mathnerd314> SM-code is just another form of mutation. and mutation is ugly compared to calculation. (IMO, obviously)
06:39:12 <Sgeo__> I'd need to study up on primitive recursive
06:39:38 <Sgeo__> Are there languages where the only mutation is self-modification? I think I've seen it
06:40:38 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: it is a whole lot easier to update an application without taking it offline if you have SM built in.
06:41:13 * Mathnerd314 is running out of battery
06:41:26 <quintopia> plug in!
06:41:32 <Sgeo__> Updating is mutation! It must die!
06:41:44 <Sgeo__> From now on, only write perfect code!
06:42:01 <Sgeo__> Hmm, you can update without self-mod if the application is just an interpreter
06:42:04 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo__: no! use copy-on-write and then garbage-collect!
06:42:22 <quintopia> Sgeo__: in underload, self-mod is the only form of flow control. does that count?
06:42:43 <Sgeo__> hmm
06:42:55 <Sgeo__> There wasn't something stronger?
06:43:03 <quintopia> stronger?
06:43:06 <Sgeo__> No variables, just constants, modified by SM?
06:43:12 <Sgeo__> That sort of thing
06:43:16 <quintopia> ahm
06:43:36 <quintopia> hold on
06:44:01 <quintopia> so you mean like all input is written immediately into the program?
06:44:29 <Sgeo__> Hmm, not sure
06:44:29 <quintopia> and all data is stored in the program?
06:44:44 <Sgeo__> Maybe I haven't seen it before
06:44:54 <quintopia> Aubergine would qualify there, although it has conventional flow control (gotos)
06:45:56 <quintopia> (on a side note, Aubergine is one of my favorite languages on the wiki. i couldn't say why.)
06:47:59 <Sgeo__> "(This reference implementation is buggy. The "or" on line 15 should be an "and," and against all logic, the "<" on line 44 should be a "<=.")"
06:48:01 <Sgeo__> lolwat
06:48:44 <quintopia> yeah i wrote that
06:49:03 <quintopia> because i had to make those changes to the ref impl to make it work
06:49:09 <Sgeo__> Why not just fix it?
06:49:15 <Sgeo__> Oh, you don't control the interp?
06:49:18 <zzo38> Consider [[IINC]]. Is that relevant? Maybe if you remove the line values and make it modify the commands instead?
06:49:21 <quintopia> it's not my language
06:49:53 <quintopia> zzo38: you do it :P
06:50:29 <zzo38> I mean hypothetically.
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06:54:02 <zzo38> I don't know if you can make a new kind of esolang out of purely self-modifying.
06:54:54 <Sgeo__> What's that language where all instructions must come from input
06:55:02 <Sgeo__> According to quintopia, it's SM-complete
06:55:07 <zzo38> [[Easy]]
06:55:36 <zzo38> Sgeo__: Is Easy the right one?
06:55:48 <Sgeo__> Yes
06:56:46 <quintopia> hmmm
06:56:46 <Sgeo__> Actually, that seems Forth-like
06:56:55 <Sgeo__> The whole program is interpreting the program thing
06:57:01 <quintopia> yeah, i'd say that's SM-complee
06:57:15 <quintopia> although
06:57:29 <quintopia> one could also argue that it is more an interpreter than a language
06:58:11 <quintopia> actually, there's a problem
06:58:16 <Sgeo__> quintopia, how is an interpreter that never leaves interpreter mode not as SM-complete as a program in an SM-complete language that gets completely overwritten?
06:58:23 <quintopia> the : command is guaranteed to always be executed again
06:58:42 <quintopia> and it occurs at the end of a program regardless of the input
06:58:54 <quintopia> so there is pre-existing code that always gets executed again
06:59:00 <quintopia> so it's disqualified
07:00:53 <quintopia> Sgeo__: it's possible that any TC language is SMC by virtue of such interpreters being possible. i'll have to think about it.
07:02:26 <quintopia> http://bash.org/?926695 i'm gonna play this at a party some night :P
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07:29:29 <Sgeo__> I'm scared that if I describe what an SQL injection is, and don't provide a source, my professor will think I'm plagiarising or something.
07:31:06 <coppro> do you have standards for common knowledge?
07:31:51 <quintopia> meh, do it anyway
07:40:34 <coppro> quintopia: I recommend making sure it's not your computer
07:40:55 <coppro> twiddling bits is a fantastic way to screw your system up in precise ways
07:41:03 <coppro> (or use a VM)
07:43:40 <quintopia> coppro: i was thinking of building a system just to play on
07:43:50 <quintopia> can rebuild it from scratch the next day
07:47:40 <Quadrescence> who wants to play detective
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07:53:56 <coppro> Quadrescence: ?
07:55:25 <Sgeo__> Bobby Tables!
07:57:37 <quintopia> i love playing detective
07:57:53 <Quadrescence> ok
07:57:57 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/EUswg.jpg
07:57:57 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/d5vDN.jpg
07:57:57 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/feroG.jpg
07:57:57 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/WbMEs.jpg
07:57:58 <quintopia> i mean the dressing up like a gumshoe and playing cat and mouse with attractive widows part
07:58:00 <Quadrescence> figure who did it
07:58:06 <quintopia> i don't actually like solving mysteries
07:58:10 <Quadrescence> because it happened a little while ago
07:59:14 <Sgeo__> 2 mins, I get back to work
07:59:19 <Sgeo__> Next paragraph etc
07:59:25 <Sgeo__> 1min
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08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:05:26 <Sgeo__> Now railing about Diaspora's piece of shit security
08:06:23 <Sgeo__> Fuck you EasyBib, that is NOT an invalid URL
08:16:50 <Sgeo__> FUCK
08:16:51 <Sgeo__> FUCK YOU
08:17:17 <Sgeo__> Wait, nevermind
08:17:24 <Sgeo__> Wait, no. I'm still saying fuck you
08:17:37 <Sgeo__> Actually, I have no idea.
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08:29:56 <marmar> ciao
08:30:21 <Sgeo__> Hi
08:30:46 <marmar> !list
08:31:00 <Sgeo__> marmar, hm?
08:31:05 <Sgeo__> What are you trying to do?
08:31:33 -!- marmar has left (?).
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08:37:18 <asiekierka> hello
08:37:26 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Stackmill
08:37:32 <asiekierka> could you please look at the commands list
08:37:41 <asiekierka> and tell me if there's a command i could replace
08:37:49 <asiekierka> to be "duplicate topmost element on stack"
08:38:13 <asiekierka> i was thinking division or multiplication
08:39:24 <Sgeo__>
08:39:44 <asiekierka> what
08:39:49 <Sgeo__> Oh, sorry
08:39:54 <Sgeo__> Didn't look at the page
08:40:15 <asiekierka> i think multiplication as it's far easier to implement with add/sub than division
08:40:31 <asiekierka> duplicate topmost element on stack would save a lot of cycles for possible programmers
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08:40:42 <asiekierka> for example to duplicate a value of 10000
08:40:47 <asiekierka> you have to execute like... 100000 commands
08:43:07 <Sgeo__> "Seriously, cloud computing was the original motivation for the language." -- Gilad Bracha on Newspeak
08:43:20 <Sgeo__> Hmm, suddenly, I'm not so sure how much I like this language
08:43:39 <Sgeo__> Well, the language itself is fine, but can I morally support this language when that is its goal?
08:43:54 <Sgeo__> Maybe it's not really that cloud-extremist
08:43:58 <Sgeo__> I should relax
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10:00:07 <Sgeo__> "This is exactly equivalent to an SQL injection vulnerability, except in a language other than Javascript."
10:00:10 <Sgeo__> Ok I'm tired
10:02:24 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg
10:02:25 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg
10:02:26 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg
10:02:28 <Quadrescence> http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg
10:05:31 <Sgeo__> I can't tell if that's NSFW or not
10:06:18 * Sgeo__ decides that it is
10:08:49 <asiekierka> Sgeo__
10:08:50 <asiekierka> it's not NSFW
10:08:55 <asiekierka> it's Not Safe For Any Kind Of Life Or Sanity
10:09:28 <Sgeo__> asiekierka, the only thing that matches that description is death
10:13:43 <Sgeo__> Ah, BZFlag
10:14:02 <Sgeo__> Talked about BZFlag two years ago, as an example of cheating in ga... no, I didn't actually
10:14:07 <Sgeo__> Well, I'm using it now =P
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10:44:50 <Sgeo__> Now talking about Trusting Trust
10:46:46 <Sgeo__> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html this is it?
10:46:51 <Sgeo__> This is the whole thing?
10:53:18 <Sgeo__> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html I actually understand this
11:05:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:07:54 <Sgeo__> It's so... obvious, really
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11:38:15 -!- augur has changed nick to Agu10sInternet.
11:38:27 -!- Agu10sInternet has changed nick to augur.
11:47:34 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ :D
11:49:07 * Sgeo__ dares oerjan to read every Mezzacotta strip
11:49:28 <oerjan> nice try
11:53:06 <Sgeo__> What am I on again?
11:53:10 <Sgeo__> Social engineering
11:57:26 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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12:18:01 <Sgeo__> "What are some similarities and differences between prank calls and attacks such as SQL injections?"
12:18:06 <Sgeo__> It's official, I'm insane.
12:19:00 * Sgeo__ clarifies "prank calls"
12:27:51 <Sgeo__> 6 seemingly unrelated comp sec topics in one paper
12:27:53 <Sgeo__> Sensible!
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13:45:55 <Ilari> Heh... I'm seeing how small space one can pack the complete list of all allocated unicast IPv4 addresses...
13:46:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:47:49 <Ilari> So far, 1/8th of the address space processed, about 2328 bytes output...
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13:51:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, mcmap got desynced somehow when placing a torch high up. Garbage on map
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13:58:10 * Sgeo__ breathes
13:58:19 <Sgeo__> I submitted everything the professor asked for
13:58:26 <Sgeo__> Let me try to do more
13:58:32 <Sgeo__> Increase my odds
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14:21:02 <Ilari> The program I wrote compressed bitmap (4Gib) of all allocated/delegated IPv4 address ranges to 29376 bytes...
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14:25:39 <asiekierka> Ilari can you send the decompressor and the compressed file
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14:31:18 <Ilari> Actually, I designed the format more for random access into compressed bitmap than to be decompressed...
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14:32:31 * Ilari checks what xz does with the data...
14:34:20 <oerjan> well if you have random access, surely decompression is just a for loop over that :)
14:34:36 <asiekierka> Ilari even if it's slow, do eet
14:35:15 <Ilari> Well, there are faster methods to decompress that data than loop over random access...
14:40:38 * Sgeo__ might find that data useful at some point
14:40:47 * Sgeo__ wants to ban all IPs from a certain wiki
14:40:58 <Sgeo__> Can just ban every /16 block, but that's tedious
14:41:09 <Sgeo__> I mean, of course I'd use a bot, but still
14:41:17 <Sgeo__> I feel deranged
14:42:39 <oerjan> patch source code?
14:43:25 <Sgeo__> I don't have that kind of control over it
14:43:36 <Sgeo__> If I did, I'd set the setting that blocks anons from editing
14:43:52 * Sgeo__ finally gets to use his Evil Wanda laugh in his FB status
14:55:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo__, /all/ IPs?
14:55:55 <Vorpal> wouldn't that forbid everyone
14:56:02 <Sgeo__> That would forbid anonymous users
14:56:18 <Sgeo__> I wouldn't select the option to ban logged in users with those IPs
14:56:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo__, tried captcha?
14:57:01 <Sgeo__> Vorpal, I don't have that level of access
14:57:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo__, can't you ask someone who /has/ that level of access?
14:57:24 <Sgeo__> I don't think any such person is active
14:57:41 <Ilari> It doesn't let to ban above /16 size?
14:58:08 <Sgeo__> Ilari, nope
15:01:42 <Ilari> And now the data even roundtrips through compressor and decompressor I wrote...
15:02:47 <Sgeo__> Am I deranged for comparing SQL injections to prank calls on The Simpsons?
15:11:00 <Sgeo__> ....CRAP
15:11:08 <Sgeo__> My presentation doesn't have a works cited
15:20:04 <Sgeo__> That's it
15:20:09 <Sgeo__> That's all the work I can do
15:20:15 <Sgeo__> I don't think there's anything else I can do
15:20:18 <Sgeo__> I need to breathe
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15:56:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hi
15:56:24 <elliott> yawn
15:57:39 <elliott> 22:42:54 <coppro> j-invariant: basically he's trying to replace MSE
15:57:39 <elliott> 22:43:00 <zzo38> TeXnicard is not written entirely in TeX. It only uses TeX for the typesetting.
15:57:39 <elliott> 22:43:02 <coppro> knowing zzo38 it will likely not happen
15:57:39 <elliott> 22:43:06 <coppro> but if it does, <3
15:57:47 <asiekierka> http://twcywesit21c.tumblr.com/
15:57:56 <elliott> coppro: erm you have seen that TeXnicard is used by writing code in an underload-style language? :D
15:58:23 <elliott> coppro: btw /Enhanced/ CWEB is zzo's own version of CWEB.
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16:00:00 <asiekierka> hi elliott
16:00:06 <asiekierka> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stackmill
16:00:21 <elliott> 23:24:05 <coppro> Sgeo: oh
16:00:21 <elliott> 23:24:08 <coppro> so you're just an idiot
16:00:30 <elliott> coppro: no no you don't understand, he has a crippling fear of deadlines!
16:00:31 -!- ineiros has joined.
16:00:35 <elliott> asiekierka: seen.
16:04:55 <elliott> 00:38:47 <asiekierka> brainf**k can be implemented in it so it seems turing-complete
16:04:59 <elliott> asiekierka: i edited the page to correct this
16:05:12 <elliott> asiekierka: you have implemented a /finite-tape/ version of brainfuck which only proves it is at least a finite state machine
16:05:50 <elliott> asiekierka: also see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Stackmill
16:06:38 <elliott> 01:21:53 <variable> http://codepad.org/R1ydyMJ8 --> does anyone see anything wrong with this implementation of brainfuck ?
16:06:52 <elliott> variable: as long as "quick" doesn't mean in the sense of execution speed, in which case it's going to be very slow ...
16:07:21 <elliott> 01:30:18 <Sgeo> It might give variable a wrong impression
16:07:31 <elliott> sgeo i'm sorry but i don't think any impression you could give would be wrong
16:07:48 -!- elliott_ has joined.
16:07:52 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:09:01 <elliott> 05:30:12 <asiekierka> Vorpal
16:09:01 <elliott> 05:30:13 <asiekierka> about the bug
16:09:01 <elliott> 05:30:21 <asiekierka> it only happens in the best GBA emulator available, NO$GBA
16:09:01 <elliott> 05:30:27 <asiekierka> it doesn't happen on the worse emulators (VisualBoyAdvance)
16:09:01 <elliott> 05:30:28 <asiekierka> or the real thing
16:09:01 <asiekierka> i think I see how BCT can be implemented
16:09:07 <elliott> well erm i hate to state the obvious...
16:09:10 <asiekierka> elliott it is the best emulator
16:09:17 <asiekierka> i'm sorry but every NDS developer uses it
16:09:19 <asiekierka> well
16:09:20 <asiekierka> not developer
16:09:21 <elliott> but an emulator with a bug not in the real hardware that other emulators don't have does not *sound* like the best, i'm afraid
16:09:25 <asiekierka> but people who want to emulate the thing
16:09:43 <asiekierka> well it is the only one which can emulate almost all commercial games properly
16:09:53 <elliott> sry, don't buy it. I see "LOL NO$GBA IS SO K33WL" all the time but I've never seen any evidence for it
16:10:11 <asiekierka> it is because it has a really good debugger
16:10:15 <asiekierka> and
16:10:20 <asiekierka> it can run a lot of stuff well
16:10:23 <elliott> debugging is not to do with emulation
16:12:19 <asiekierka> after checking BCT
16:12:32 <oerjan> elliott: i read that as that the emulator may be the only one to have this particular bug, but all the others have _more_ :D
16:12:57 <asiekierka> i am sure it's doable
16:12:58 <elliott> oerjan: possibly ... but printf("%d",99) crashing an emulator suggests to me that it might be a widdle bit of a big bug
16:13:05 <asiekierka> 0 = pop value
16:13:08 <oerjan> you'd think
16:13:26 <asiekierka> 1 = if value is nonzero (1), put next input value on stack and shift up
16:13:29 <oerjan> asiekierka: yeah i mentioned BCT because it looked to me like it would be easier
16:13:34 <asiekierka> that's BCT in Stackmill
16:13:37 <asiekierka> i do not have a working implementatino
16:13:40 <asiekierka> implementation*
16:13:42 <asiekierka> but i can prove it is possible
16:14:25 <asiekierka> i do not give up that easily
16:14:27 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:14:32 <asiekierka> but i will have to backport some stuff from BF algorithms
16:14:34 <elliott> 23:29:29 <Sgeo__> I'm scared that if I describe what an SQL injection is, and don't provide a source, my professor will think I'm plagiarising or something.
16:14:47 <elliott> oh man yeah i get punished for knowing things all the time because you're not expected to know simple things like that in university!
16:14:53 <elliott> i'd be careful even saying 2+2=4 personally
16:16:03 <elliott> 23:59:14 <Sgeo__> 2 mins, I get back to work
16:16:03 <elliott> 23:59:19 <Sgeo__> Next paragraph etc
16:16:03 <elliott> 23:59:25 <Sgeo__> 1min
16:16:04 <elliott> 23:59:59 --- log: ended esoteric/10.12.26
16:16:04 <elliott> 00:00:00 --- log: started esoteric/10.12.27
16:16:04 <elliott> 00:05:26 <Sgeo__> Now railing about Diaspora's piece of shit security
16:16:17 <elliott> Sgeo__: a good less-than-five minutes of solid work i see!
16:16:32 <elliott> oh wait you meant in your ... um ... i don't really want to give it the title essay
16:16:32 <elliott> man
16:16:34 <elliott> i am grouchy today
16:16:38 <elliott> oerjan: have you got any kittens
16:16:39 <oerjan> elliott: at least for 1+1=2 you can cite russell/whitehead
16:16:45 <oerjan> nope
16:16:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
16:16:57 <elliott> hey look
16:17:00 <elliott> a new esolang to make!!
16:17:09 <elliott> Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php is going to be the BEST. ESOLANG. EVER
16:17:31 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Stackmill#Turing-completeness
16:19:22 <oerjan> <elliott> i am grouchy today <-- no _i'm_ grouchy
16:20:49 <asiekierka> is that kind of thing OK
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16:21:05 <oerjan> asiekierka: you might also want BCT's top level loop and exit condition
16:22:19 <oerjan> and of course, that's not very explicit...
16:23:03 <asiekierka> oerjan - check again, like this?
16:23:08 <oerjan> hm the exit condition might be slightly tricky.
16:23:50 <oerjan> oh you solved that part.
16:24:11 <asiekierka> therefore i've shown that using the current command set it is possible to implement BCT in my language
16:24:19 <elliott> oerjan: write bf interpreter in scheme plz
16:24:24 <elliott> need for silly troll language
16:24:50 <asiekierka> also
16:24:56 <asiekierka> why the **** did i port Stackmill to the GBA
16:25:04 <asiekierka> and ran a fibonacci program on it
16:25:17 <asiekierka> the weakness of Stackmill is a need to run a time-consuming loop to duplicate/move a number
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16:25:19 <oerjan> asiekierka: actually it's the halting that's slightly tricky, since you have to be able to do that on every 0 instruction...
16:25:43 <asiekierka> oerjan: do the check after the command runs
16:26:21 <asiekierka> push a check value on stack (0 - halt, 1 - no halt)
16:26:22 <oerjan> asiekierka: it's not the checking that's tricky, it's the actual halting... although maybe it's not that hard
16:26:32 <asiekierka> if it'll be 0
16:26:34 <asiekierka> the loop will terminate
16:26:37 <asiekierka> if it's 1, it will restart
16:26:41 <asiekierka> at the beginning of the loop
16:26:44 <asiekierka> the check value will be popped
16:26:47 <asiekierka> there you go
16:27:35 <oerjan> asiekierka: you have to do that check after each 0 command though
16:27:44 <asiekierka> oerjan: it will do it in the loop
16:27:52 <asiekierka> one run of the loop = one command parsed
16:27:53 <asiekierka> if i only know how to do a "x==[constant]" check in Stackmill
16:27:55 <asiekierka> i'd implement it
16:27:59 <asiekierka> knew*
16:29:03 <oerjan> asiekierka: i see, i was thinking of a compiler BCT -> Stackmill
16:29:07 <asiekierka> oh
16:29:19 <asiekierka> i am thinking of an interpreter there
16:29:25 <oerjan> similar to your brainfuck example
16:29:30 <asiekierka> input: the program, looped on and on
16:29:34 <asiekierka> output: nothing
16:29:41 <asiekierka> a compiler may very well be impossible
16:29:45 <oerjan> an interpreter has the disadvantage that you need to keep both the program and the data in the stack
16:29:50 <asiekierka> no you don't
16:29:57 <asiekierka> input: the program, looped on and on
16:30:03 <asiekierka> you just have to send the program ad infinitum
16:30:10 <asiekierka> real-world example: glue both ends of the program tape together
16:30:20 <oerjan> asiekierka: i would not consider that a proof of TC-ness
16:30:37 <oerjan> it's too cheating
16:30:41 <asiekierka> well in that case it's not TC
16:30:47 <asiekierka> thank you very much
16:31:00 <asiekierka> unless WAAAAAIT
16:31:02 <oerjan> yes it is.
16:31:08 <asiekierka> you could do this
16:31:12 <asiekierka> [command, check][command, check]
16:31:16 <asiekierka> [] - loop
16:31:17 <oerjan> these are not unsolvable problems.
16:31:19 <asiekierka> if the check is 0
16:31:24 <asiekierka> ALL the command/check loops will be ignored
16:31:27 <asiekierka> up to the program halting
16:31:36 <asiekierka> :D
16:31:43 <asiekierka> so the compiled version looks like this
16:31:46 <oerjan> asiekierka: yeah but you need to do it a bit more subtly than that
16:31:51 <asiekierka> oerjan: what
16:32:03 <asiekierka> why
16:32:07 <asiekierka> the solution works, is that not enough
16:32:13 <oerjan> asiekierka: you sometimes need to be able to go to the next command _without_ skipping it
16:32:21 <asiekierka> if the check is 1
16:32:22 <asiekierka> it won't skip it
16:32:32 <asiekierka> and will have normal program flow
16:32:41 <asiekierka> if the check is 0 (read: stack empty)
16:32:41 <oerjan> ...if the check is 1 how do you exit the first loop?
16:32:47 <asiekierka> oerjan: why would you have to
16:32:52 <asiekierka> the check is 0 when the stack is empty
16:33:07 <asiekierka> the main loop would also exit as the last check executed would be a 0
16:33:07 <oerjan> _because you want to run the next command_!
16:33:33 <asiekierka> i thought it's "after each 0 command, halt if the stack is empty"
16:33:42 <oerjan> yes.
16:33:46 <asiekierka> that's what i do
16:33:55 <oerjan> but what does your solution do if the stack is nonempty?
16:34:00 <asiekierka> the check will be a 1
16:34:12 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:34:13 <asiekierka> hmm
16:34:15 <asiekierka> you got me there
16:34:27 <asiekierka> oh right, hmm
16:35:15 <asiekierka> [pop previous stack value -> command -> check -> shift up and push a 0 so it quits the loop] pop the 0 -> shift down, giving the true check value [pop -> next command...
16:35:17 <asiekierka> here
16:35:21 <asiekierka> this is a way to make it work
16:36:20 <asiekierka> STACK AFTER CHECK:
16:36:25 <asiekierka> 1(data)
16:36:36 <asiekierka> (if the check was positive)
16:36:40 <asiekierka> STACK AFTER QUITTING THE LOOP:
16:36:42 <asiekierka> 0(data)1
16:36:48 <asiekierka> 1(data)
16:37:04 <asiekierka> (data)
16:37:17 <elliott> oerjan: You Know You're a Haskeller When: you write a scheme program without realising that it needs to be initialised with an infinite stream of 0s
16:38:17 <oerjan> elliott: yay
16:38:31 <elliott> oerjan: fix it for me >:|
16:38:44 <oerjan> elliott: use set-cdr! ? >:)
16:38:55 <asiekierka> it is complex but i believe i can pull off a BCT compiler
16:39:04 <oerjan> or what it's called
16:39:06 <asiekierka> it is VERY complex so i'll have to make an actual app for it
16:39:09 <elliott> oerjan: ...hey that will actually work!
16:39:10 <elliott> oerjan: thanks dude
16:39:24 <oerjan> you're welcome
16:41:03 <elliott> oerjan: hmm I just realised that I basically have to put my whole "interpret" procedure in the argument to H
16:41:09 <elliott> since presumably it doesn't have access to the super-Turing environment
16:44:14 <oerjan> asiekierka: i think there's still a problem there
16:44:18 <elliott> oerjan: 1. Comments in -- style are too hard to mention cause they do not stop the eye-flow as // vertical slashes do. 2. Comments in /**/ style are too easy to enter from the right numeric keyboard, but {--} style require shift + some keys in the middle of keyboard.
16:44:18 <elliott> From phisiological point of view - putting the right hand to the right for comments tells the body "i'm putting a comment", but putting {--} in some way tells the body - I still type-in the code part.
16:45:14 <nooga> i'm thinking about new general purpose programming language
16:45:34 <oerjan> asiekierka: the "pop the 0" from the different loops accumulate
16:45:48 <asiekierka> oerjan no
16:46:05 <elliott> hmm I need Banana Scheme opinions
16:46:06 <oerjan> elliott: saw that in r/programming
16:46:07 <asiekierka> the loop pops VALUE #1, does the command, pushes VALUE #1, moves it and pushes #2
16:46:15 <asiekierka> the un-loop pops #2, moves VALUE #1 back
16:46:16 <elliott> I need to use eval in this program
16:46:20 <elliott> so I need to pass an environment
16:46:25 <elliott> so I need to do (scheme-report-environment version)
16:46:29 <elliott> For R5RS, version=5.
16:46:33 <elliott> But what is it for Scheme-1?
16:46:45 <elliott> (scheme-report-environment 5.1)? :p
16:46:54 <elliott> (scheme-report-environment '5H)?
16:47:04 <elliott> optional procedure: (interaction-environment)
16:47:04 <elliott> This procedure returns a specifier for the environment that contains implementation-defined bindings, typically a superset of those listed in the report. The intent is that this procedure will return the environment in which the implementation would evaluate expressions dynamically typed by the user.
16:47:06 <elliott> Or that will work!
16:47:12 <oerjan> asiekierka: the problem isn't what happens inside the loops, but what happens between them once you decide to skip them
16:47:53 <oerjan> you're popping a 0 in each gap
16:48:02 <oerjan> a swap instead might work
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16:49:38 <asiekierka> i'm stuck
16:49:41 <asiekierka> Wait, no
16:49:48 <elliott> > (run '(+))
16:49:48 <elliott> Scheme 48 heap overflow
16:49:51 <nooga> hi asiekierka
16:49:51 <asiekierka> that is not a problem as we are quitting the loop, right?
16:49:56 <asiekierka> if we are halting
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16:50:01 <asiekierka> i do not care about what happens to the stack
16:50:09 <asiekierka> and we're halting only when the stack is empty
16:50:19 <asiekierka> the stack will constantly return zeros when empty
16:50:20 <oerjan> asiekierka: well you still might not want it to crash...
16:50:25 <asiekierka> oerjan: It won't
16:50:30 <oerjan> oh in that case it should be fine
16:50:32 <asiekierka> Yes
16:50:41 <asiekierka> so turing-completeness is theoretically proved
16:50:44 <asiekierka> not practically, thouh
16:50:46 <asiekierka> though*
16:51:37 <oerjan> yeah but it _should_ be just a cut-and-paste compilation once you found out what each part becomes
16:51:40 <asiekierka> Yes
16:51:47 <oerjan> er
16:51:53 <asiekierka> So can I state that this is turing-complete
16:51:53 <asiekierka> or
16:51:57 <oerjan> s/cut-and-paste/search-and-replace/
16:52:00 <asiekierka> should I make a practical one first
16:52:30 <oerjan> i think you should make it at least as explicit as the brainfuck version is
16:52:52 <elliott> oerjan: now now, a mathematician can't demand full specification from others
16:52:54 <asiekierka> yes
16:52:55 <asiekierka> i will tomorrow
16:52:56 <elliott> that's hypocritical!
16:52:56 <asiekierka> gtg bye
16:52:58 <elliott> asiekierka: just handwave it
16:53:00 <elliott> say it's probably TC
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16:53:24 <nooga> hehe
16:53:28 <nooga> elbląg
16:54:09 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
16:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, *prod*
16:54:23 <elliott> Vorpal: what
16:54:33 <elliott> oerjan: shut up, i'm sad because scheme48 heap overflows on my program, und- OH
16:54:35 <elliott> OHHHHH. I SEE.
16:54:44 <Vorpal> elliott, about when do you plan to work on that thing?
16:54:48 <elliott> oerjan: thx rubber ducky
16:54:56 <elliott> Vorpal: on the wonders of the world?
16:54:59 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah
16:55:00 <elliott> I'm a bit busy coding right now :p
16:55:07 <elliott> forgot to turn minecraft off
16:55:17 <elliott> I'll loot my stock a bit later to see what there is
16:55:31 <elliott> > (run '(+))
16:55:31 <elliott> Scheme 48 heap overflow
16:55:33 <elliott> WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU
16:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, just want to know when I can expect you there so we don't miss constantly miss each other with half a minute :P
16:55:48 <elliott> i think i'll have breakfast first :p
16:55:52 <oerjan> elliott: memory leak?
16:55:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what
16:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, when did you move to US or whatever
16:56:20 <elliott> Vorpal: hey shut up, ais523 has been on us timezone before and the like :)
16:56:46 <elliott> and oerjan just does it discreetly
16:56:54 <elliott> oerjan: well ...
16:57:03 <elliott> oerjan: I think possibly scheme48 handles cyclic lists badly
16:57:12 <oerjan> elliott: oops
16:57:26 <elliott> oerjan: all that /should/ be happening here is it incrementing the first element of after (after = 0:after)
16:57:28 <elliott> ('+ (interpret (cdr p) before (cons (+ (car after) 1) (cdr after))))
16:57:32 <elliott> and then seeing the null is list and returning
16:57:35 <elliott> ((null? p) (cons before after))
16:57:40 <elliott> oh, possibly it's /printing/ it that isn'tw orking
16:57:54 <elliott> nope
16:57:56 <elliott> let's try mzscheme
16:58:04 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:59:03 <Sgeo__> Let's try Racket
16:59:06 * Sgeo__ gets shot
16:59:53 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/bwipttbip$ mzscheme -if bwipttbip.sc1
16:59:54 <elliott> Welcome to MzScheme v4.2.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.
16:59:54 <elliott> > (run '(+))
16:59:54 <elliott> reference to undefined identifier: H
16:59:54 <elliott> > (define (H x y) #t)
16:59:54 <elliott> > (run '(+))
16:59:56 <elliott> grmbl
17:00:00 <elliott> Sgeo__: done.
17:00:01 <elliott> well.
17:00:04 <elliott> technically that's slightly pre-Racket.
17:01:39 <oerjan> afk
17:17:46 <elliott> "The air on which Haskell programmers seem to thrive reeks of foul stench of cargo cult mathematics, something in which I don’t want to be a part." -- Quadrescence, clogging up my proggit with bullshit
17:17:51 <elliott> Quadrescence: gtfo of my front page
17:19:19 * oerjan didn't see that
17:19:57 <elliott> oerjan: can you just ban him or something, he's a persistent troll with no interest in esolangs who just bothers everyone and also says "u" for "you" :{
17:20:14 <elliott> also that is clearly a direct attack on the secret cabal of haskellers >:)
17:20:58 <oerjan> no dammit
17:21:09 <elliott> psht
17:21:12 <oerjan> also beware, i am _damn_ grumpy today
17:21:17 <elliott> i'll have to find a more loyal haskeller
17:21:56 <elliott> oerjan: er what quote
17:22:31 <oerjan> that air and stench one
17:22:42 <elliott> oerjan: no, that's on reddit right now.
17:22:49 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/es29o/the_air_on_which_haskell_programmers_seem_to/
17:23:08 <elliott> symbo1ics.com is his stupid blog which he keeps bugging everyone in here to write a post on.
17:23:15 <Quadrescence> elliott: no you
17:23:29 <Quadrescence> elliott: yeah I've invited people to write things if they wish
17:23:35 <elliott> banning me is so cliché it's happened like 4 times by now
17:23:40 <Quadrescence> but I'm done bugging people about it. I just made an open offer
17:25:30 <elliott> well at least you're well on your way to becoming just as overly-dramatically acerbic as Stanislav without actually having decent opinions to back it up, i predict imminent internet fame
17:25:38 <elliott> or at least proggit. what's the difference.
17:25:49 <Quadrescence> elliott: u mad
17:26:13 <elliott> proggit is bad enough without your crap.
17:26:32 <Quadrescence> i didn't post it btw
17:26:38 <Sgeo__> Wait, is .. was about to ask
17:26:43 <elliott> Quadrescence: also considering you just mentioned IIRC /two days ago/ that you were finally learning haskell i seriously doubt you're even /close/ to competent enough to have a decent opinion on it.
17:26:51 <elliott> but let's not let that stop us.
17:26:51 <Quadrescence> elliott: what?
17:26:55 <Sgeo__> Quadrescence, do you just accept all programming related thoughts?
17:26:58 <Quadrescence> when did I mention I was learning haskell
17:27:16 <elliott> oh wait bsmntbombdood said that
17:27:16 <Quadrescence> elliott: i wrote a blog post about haskell like 2 months ago
17:27:16 <elliott> lawl
17:27:49 <elliott> i suppose it's too much to expect you to realise that nobody likes Num, it's a historical relic
17:28:14 <elliott> [18:36] <Quadrescence> mauke: I'm not talking to Haskell inter-
17:28:15 <elliott> preters, I'm talking to humans over the internet.
17:28:23 <elliott> except that [Num t => t] is valid with existential quantification.
17:28:26 <elliott> so it's hardly a nitpick.
17:28:44 <Quadrescence> elliott: if I said "forall", maybe it would!
17:29:39 <Quadrescence> actually what am i saying "forall"
17:29:52 <Sgeo__> fuckyouall
17:30:13 <Sgeo__> You are having a heated debate over a failure in communication.
17:30:22 <Ilari> Ping times: 65.4ms and 1.5ms...
17:30:32 <Quadrescence> yeah for once i agree with Sgeo__ :)
17:30:55 <elliott> Sgeo__: no, no we're not
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17:31:12 <elliott> Sgeo__: I'm having a non-heated shit-slinging over the fact that Quadrescence is a moron and just about every sentence in the post is either blatantly incorrect or stupid.
17:31:33 <Quadrescence> elliott: r u mad cuz i attacked haskell
17:31:48 <Sgeo__> elliott, I have no comment about the rest of the post, but Quadrescence and the rest of the world need to figure out how to talk to eachother
17:31:49 <elliott> no, i don't even /like/ haskell all that much
17:32:03 <elliott> Sgeo__: the problem is firmly Quadrescence's.
17:32:43 <Sgeo__> In breakdowns of communication, the prolem is firmly whoever things that it's the other side's fault entirely
17:32:56 <Sgeo__> Well, ok, not "firmly"
17:33:24 <elliott> Sgeo__: i'm not sure you quite understand: he did not write a post about how mauke is an idiot for being a pedant, this is one minor point in a whole gigantic, shining orb of idiocy.
17:33:25 <Sgeo__> I'm going to go back to napping now
17:35:05 <Quadrescence> elliott: y u so mad
17:35:43 <elliott> the only thing even vaguely "mad" is mild irritation that proggit is being clogged up with another idiotic headline. the rest is just you being a moron :)
17:36:34 <Quadrescence> some programmer found it sensible. i guess he is probs an idiot too eh
17:37:19 <elliott> wait, SOME PROGRAMMER?!?!
17:37:24 <elliott> holy shit, those are some credentials there
17:37:29 <Quadrescence> you bet
17:37:41 <elliott> got another programmer on line three, says VB is the best language ever and anything with esoteric in the name is a tool of the devil
17:37:43 <elliott> gotta agree with him
17:37:48 <elliott> see you, satanic cocksuckers
17:37:49 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:38:06 <Quadrescence> he seems upset
17:38:20 -!- elliott has joined.
17:38:25 <elliott> decided satanism is the thing for m
17:38:27 <elliott> *e
17:38:57 <Quadrescence> wb elliott, master programmer of #esoteric
17:39:14 <elliott> sorry no, i think you're forgetting: Mr. VB
17:40:21 <Quadrescence> Mr VB doesn't vent about his favorite website being clogged with nonsense, he just Continues On His Way
17:40:57 <elliott> and uses VB, yep.
17:41:03 <elliott> and thinks we're all going to hell.
17:41:05 <elliott> nice guy.
17:41:45 <Quadrescence> that is very nice of you to elaborate on his opinions. perhaps you can tell me more about who he is because i am curious why he posted my non-sensical blog
17:41:54 -!- sshc has joined.
17:42:08 <elliott> well you see he's magical.
17:46:14 <Quadrescence> so are you, master elliott
17:46:35 <elliott> lord over my domain. all ~seven of us.
17:47:57 <Vorpal> hm I wonder where Deewiant is
17:48:55 -!- sftp has joined.
17:49:01 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know how to merge two LVM volumes?
17:51:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: doing something deewiant, probably
17:54:31 <elliott> anyone want to fix my interpreter? >:)
17:54:53 <Quadrescence> elliott: where is it
17:55:04 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:55:04 <elliott> on my filesystem
17:55:43 <elliott> hmph wait why the fuck does that run out of heap
17:55:50 <elliott> whaat
17:55:57 <elliott> ohh.
17:56:07 <elliott> (define (interpret p before after)
17:56:07 <elliott> (eval
17:56:07 <elliott> `(letrec ((interpret (lambda (p before after) ,interpret-code)))
17:56:07 <elliott> (interpret ',p ',before ',after))
17:56:07 <elliott> (interaction-environment)))
17:56:17 <elliott> methinks ',after might not like to be evaluated if after is infinite
17:56:33 <elliott> > (eval `',zeroes (interaction-environment))
17:56:33 <elliott> [hang]
17:56:34 <elliott> indeed
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18:02:34 <elliott> oerjan: can i troll you please? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
18:02:40 <elliott> oerjan: is this language Turing complete or not? ;)
18:02:53 <elliott> oerjan: it can run any computation that brainfuck can, just so long as it halts
18:03:49 -!- Sgeo__ has left (?).
18:03:55 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
18:04:08 <Sgeo__> What the fuck am I doing that XChat interprets as "close this tab"?
18:04:13 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
18:04:21 <Sgeo__> Also, you're all addicted to /index.php
18:04:26 <Sgeo__> Also, I'm gibbering mess
18:04:52 <elliott> Sgeo__: Actually, I'm just addicted to reacting to spammers that spam "Talk:foo" for ridiculous foo by creating a language named foo, so that Talk:foo cannot be reasonably protected.
18:04:54 <Sgeo__> It's freezing cold outside, I haven't had a good night's sleep for... um
18:04:54 <elliott> Basically I hate the admins.
18:05:14 <elliott> Also all these foo languages are basically trolls against the concept of a computational class.
18:05:47 <Sgeo__> elliott, what did you think of the disussion of SM-complete?
18:06:04 <elliott> Sgeo__: To be honest I glossed over it as it didn't seem very interesting.
18:06:31 <oerjan> elliott: it's not TC, since you cannot emulate an arbitrary turing machine computation in it
18:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: sure you can -- just so long as it halts
18:06:50 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:06:57 <oerjan> where "emulation" requires a halting computation for the translation, naturally
18:07:02 <elliott> oerjan: you can even sort of emulate an infinite computation
18:07:10 <elliott> oerjan: by running it for N steps for paramaterisable N
18:07:31 <elliott> oerjan: also, you can trivially construct a program which is valid iff a given Turing machine computation halts, so it's /super-Turing/ and /sub-Turing/ at the same time
18:07:34 <elliott> oerjan: confused yet?
18:08:23 <elliott> 02:46:46 <Sgeo__> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html this is it?
18:08:23 <elliott> 02:46:51 <Sgeo__> This is the whole thing?
18:08:24 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, but i believe TC requires you to be able to translate a computation which you don't know whether halts or not, and give a valid program as result
18:08:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:08:31 <asiekierka> hai
18:08:41 <elliott> Sgeo__: Yes, that is the thing that made the most common opinion to be that computer trust was inherently limited.
18:08:49 <elliott> For at least a decade.
18:09:26 <elliott> oerjan: sure. but then, it is super-Turing in a way -- you can construct a program which, given an error-compliant implementation, behaves differently when given a halting turing machine program vs. a non-halting one
18:09:35 <elliott> oerjan: even if one of these cases is an error -- this is edging close to Kimian quines!
18:10:36 <Sgeo__> Kim Jong-Il writes quines?
18:10:44 <asiekierka> Sgeo__ I LOL'D
18:10:47 <oerjan> eek
18:11:26 <elliott> Sgeo__: what
18:11:29 <elliott> oh.
18:11:32 <elliott> shaddap :D
18:11:33 <elliott> oerjan: eek at what?
18:12:25 <oerjan> elliott: well your language reminds me of promise problems
18:13:10 <oerjan> and the issue of detecting whether something is a valid problem is a completely different task to detecting what the answer is if it is
18:13:41 <elliott> oerjan: but consider this:
18:13:52 <elliott> (lambda (p) ...run turing machine p, discard all output, print out "YAY!"...)
18:13:54 <oerjan> of course since your language has no IO the second task is actually trivial for it
18:14:05 <elliott> oerjan: given a strictly-erroring implementation, you can run this program with various inputs to determine whether the given turing machine halts
18:14:46 <elliott> oerjan: now imagine a simple shell script wrapper: do this. if the program halts, run it on an actual turing machine emulator. if the program does not halt, run it an infinite number of times. first telling it to execute instruction 1, then 2, etc., given the previous state
18:14:54 <elliott> oerjan: now obviously the infinite loop here means the wrapper is providing a lot of the TCness
18:14:57 <oerjan> elliott: yes. but then you are essentially solving the first task, which means you are not _really_ making use of only legal programs in the first place
18:15:02 <elliott> sure
18:15:13 <elliott> but I'm saying that an error-conformant implementation is both::
18:15:15 <elliott> *both:
18:15:18 <oerjan> and then of course that is super-turing
18:15:24 <elliott> - super-Turing (can solve halting problem for Turing machines)
18:15:31 <elliott> - and sub-Turing (can't emulate all of them with valid programs)
18:15:41 <elliott> and can be made TC by combining the first with a simple conditional infinite loop
18:15:54 <elliott> tl;dr WTF IST DIS
18:17:37 <elliott> oerjan: also consider: a non-error-conforming implementation is TC
18:17:44 <elliott> oerjan: and can be implemented on a turing machine
18:17:48 <elliott> (just use a bf interpreter)
18:17:58 <elliott> oerjan: because non-halting programs will have their undefined behaviour be "run forever" :)
18:18:39 <oerjan> i am just saying, it's a promise problem and confusing the different subproblems of it will just give nonsense
18:18:52 <elliott> oerjan: don't you think i'm /trying/ to give nonsense?
18:19:04 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT. THAT WOULD BE _EVIL_
18:19:18 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split).
18:19:23 <elliott> oerjan: it is, as i said, a troll :)
18:21:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Chris_Pressey&diff=20610&oldid=20565 am i a bad person now
18:22:23 <oerjan> ...i already did a similar correction, as did cpressey
18:22:54 <oerjan> oh it's a user page
18:22:54 <elliott> oerjan: but not on his user page :D
18:23:13 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Chris_Pressey&diff=11261&oldid=7997 oh that's okay then
18:23:14 <oerjan> then yes, clearly genocidal evil madness
18:23:34 <elliott> you know what's a really tempting smart-vandal target?
18:23:36 <elliott> [[Template:Catseye]] :D
18:24:20 <oerjan> you don't say
18:25:03 <elliott> oerjan: btw can you delete http://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Catseye/inner, it's been unused for ages :trollface:
18:27:40 <oerjan> BUT OF COURSE
18:29:14 <elliott> oerjan: well when will it be done??
18:32:29 * Mathnerd314 never figured out the difference between "could" and "would"
18:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, when is the ETA on that macbook air?
18:32:51 <elliott> Vorpal: it's delivered via tiny particles in the air, you wait for them to spontaneously assemble to form a laptop
18:32:53 <elliott> it's lighter that way
18:32:55 <elliott> no packaging required
18:32:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and more importantly: will it be beefy enough to run dwarf fortress
18:33:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe :P
18:33:25 <oerjan> the ETA are far too busy blowing up things in spain
18:33:26 <elliott> Vorpal: 2.1 GHz semi-recent Core 2 Duo, 4 GiB RAM, and a decent GPU but that hardly matters for Dwarf Fortress.
18:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't it use text UI iirc?
18:33:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so shouldn't you be able to get an account on bsmntbombdood's computer and play it over ssh?
18:33:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it renders its own UI which uses sprites that are mostly DOS codepage 437 plus some extra ones (like a dwarf glyph).
18:33:55 <Vorpal> ah
18:33:57 <elliott> There is a server for doing it over telnet/ssh, though.
18:34:04 <elliott> But I doubt bsmntbombdood would do that :P
18:34:27 <elliott> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Curses-tileset.gif this is what dwarf fortress looks like; notice the bearded dwarves
18:35:04 <Vorpal> elliott, is it CPU bound or memory bound?
18:35:33 <Vorpal> actually, memory bound is the wrong word
18:35:45 <elliott> Vorpal: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:System_requirements http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Maximizing_framerate
18:35:45 <Vorpal> since that would seem to refer to memory speed
18:35:54 <elliott> "DF is not particularly RAM-hungry. Expect the process to allocate between 300 and 700 MB with medium regions. With 512MB you may be a bit on the short side, but 1 GB is absolutely sufficient. World Generation can eat up far more than that, but Generation will only be slower if not more RAM is available. Otherwise the influence of RAM on game speed is limited, as DF is not loading and offloading big ch
18:35:54 <elliott> unks of data much."
18:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, 1 GB for dwarf fortress or 1 GB for the entire system I wonder
18:36:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Entire system, I think.
18:36:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I gather that just about anything can play Dwarf Fortress if you're okay with only seeing a handful of tiles at a time.
18:37:24 <elliott> Vorpal:
18:37:25 <elliott> CPU: AMD 7750x2 BE @ 2.7GHz
18:37:25 <elliott> MBO: Gigabyte GA-MA78G-DS3h
18:37:25 <elliott> RAM: 4GB DDR2 800
18:37:25 <elliott> GPU: XFX GTX260
18:37:27 <elliott> Game version: 31.08 - graphics
18:37:27 <elliott> World size: Medium region (default, nonmodified)
18:37:29 <elliott> Embark size: 5x5
18:37:31 <elliott> Age of fort: 6 years
18:37:33 <elliott> Number of dwarves: 140
18:37:35 <elliott> Average fps: 6-14
18:37:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Note extremely low average fps (it controls input too; apparently 5-15 fps is clumsy for text/mouse input)
18:37:47 <Vorpal> heh
18:38:04 <Vorpal> elliott, what makes it so CPU hungry?
18:38:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It's reaaaaaaaaaally advanced.
18:38:38 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, world generation basically simulates the whole world for ages.
18:38:51 <elliott> Procedural up the wazoo.
18:39:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well... that would happen /before/ actual gameplay, no?
18:39:03 <elliott> Yes.
18:39:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Then after that, it's just really complex nature algorithms and everything affecting everything else, from what I gather.
18:39:20 <elliott> I mean, each dwarf has its own AI (well, presumably).
18:39:23 <Vorpal> (so while annoying to wait, it is not a major issue)
18:40:01 <elliott> "Can't really give any solid recommendations, but I can share my findings between my machines. A 3.0Ghz P4 w/ 1GB of RAM ran the new version a little slower than the old. Another machine with a dualcore 2.0Ghz processor and 2GB of RAM ran it even slower. And my main machine, a quadcore @2.3Ghz with 3.25 GB of RAM ran significantly faster than the old version."
18:40:02 <Vorpal> elliott, in most games each create has it's own AI on some level. Otherwise all copies would do the exact same actions at a given point in time.
18:40:27 <elliott> Vorpal: You know why Minecraft is slow?
18:40:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Imagine if Notch was a crazy perfectionist who spent less time making the game fun than making it RIDICULOUSLY COMPREHENSIVE and had a magic infinite-speed computer.
18:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: That's why DF is slow.
18:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, java mostly. It is slower in the beginning when stuff hasn't been jitted.
18:40:57 <elliott> Er, no.
18:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, he
18:41:02 <Vorpal> heh*
18:41:05 <elliott> It's slow because it's handling thousands and thousands of blocks and shit at the same time.
18:41:11 <elliott> OK, so Java doesn't help, but still.
18:41:15 <Vorpal> elliott, for minecraft, yeah quite
18:41:22 <elliott> It's OK in Minecraft because not that much is going on at any given time.
18:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, playing it locally gives lower FPS than playing SMP
18:41:37 <Vorpal> only for desktop
18:41:47 <Vorpal> for my laptop both give same (and lower) FPS
18:42:26 <Vorpal> probably because my desktop has a good GPU but a somewhat dated CPU. And my laptop has a decent CPU but intel graphics
18:43:29 <elliott> I'm optimistic about the Air's performance.
18:43:40 <elliott> I think it'll probably be faster than my old iMac, which is good enough for me. :p
18:43:49 <elliott> Also SSD.
18:44:46 <Ilari> Java performance... Java is quite performant, but has some rough edges that really murder performance if hit (large switch statements and virtual method calls).
18:45:10 <elliott> Ilari: Switch statements being slow, who'da thunk it.
18:47:48 <Ilari> Apparently (at least the most common) JVM can't use jump tables to optimize switches.
18:48:33 <elliott> I think you can switch on strings in java.
18:49:15 <Ilari> Well, yes, but even when switching on small integers it is slow.
18:49:37 <elliott> yeah
18:50:11 <asiekierka> back
18:51:33 <Ilari> And some array-intensive code can be slow too (because of bounds checking)...
18:52:03 <nooga> now is time for... PINK FLOYD :F
18:52:19 <nooga> which recording should I choose hmmm
18:53:03 -!- dbc has joined.
18:53:11 <pikhq> Dark Side of the Moon is always good.
18:57:07 <nooga> nah
18:57:12 <nooga> i mean yes
18:57:15 <nooga> but not now
19:06:16 <nooga> ah
19:06:18 <nooga> shine on you
19:11:17 <pikhq> Yeah, "Wish You Were Here" is a pretty good album...
19:13:47 <Vorpal> ineiros, skype again?
19:16:06 <pikhq> Ooooh. 27C3 started.
19:16:58 <ineiros> Vorpal: Yes.
19:17:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:23:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, mcmap failed with 19:21:23 [DIED] protocol.c:305: Unknown packet id: 0x68
19:26:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As we've said, you failed.
19:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How?
19:26:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: rm mcmap *.o
19:26:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: make
19:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: _build/mcmap ...
19:26:58 <elliott> You were using the old version.
19:27:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, screw it, I'm removing it and recloning./
19:27:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just did ./mcmap. It builds into _build/mcmap.
19:27:43 <elliott> ./mcmap was your old build.
19:27:44 <elliott> Duh.
19:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, sorry for not realising you'd changed the location of the executable from some vague references mixed with wrong advice.
19:30:51 <Sgeo__> I kind of like the presentation I made
19:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, what was it on and should I care?
19:37:06 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, the incredibly vague topic of "misplaced trust", which I used to cover SQL injections, XSS, games, trusting trust, and social engineering
19:37:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I seriously cannot see anyone else on the server.
19:40:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:40:40 * Phantom_Hoover guts .minecraft/bin
19:41:08 * Sgeo__ needs to put food on his stomach soon
19:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, eat your copies of ActiveWorlds.
19:41:34 <pikhq> Sgeo__: So, that's like writing about "formal reasoning" for a math class, then?
19:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Full of essential semimetals!
19:42:39 <Sgeo__> pikhq, hm. I don't think it's _that_ relatively broad, but close
19:42:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why do you keep dying?
19:42:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Some packets must be being dropped...
19:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Or somesuch.
19:42:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're stupid.
19:42:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We can't see each other either.
19:43:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's a glitch due to teleporting.
19:43:04 <elliott> Known.
19:43:07 <elliott> It happens to us all the time.
19:43:12 <elliott> We just don't want to reconnect because this is fun.
19:43:20 <Vorpal> indeed
19:43:22 <Sgeo__> Did you ever discover who blew up the wonders of the world?
19:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> You could have told me, rather than waiting for me to complain and then being smug.
19:43:41 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo.
19:43:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, we told you in game
19:44:02 * Sgeo shaves
19:44:15 <Sgeo> (not literally)
19:44:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We /did/ tell you. Several times.
19:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh, you mean when I was connecting and disconnecting constantly?
19:44:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, before that iirc
19:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And I wasn't following the conversation; I assumed you couldn't see me but could see each other, and there was no evidence to the contrary.
19:46:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except what we said
19:47:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uninstall painterly?
19:47:09 <Vorpal> why?
19:47:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We said we couldn't.
19:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There. Is. Nothing. You. Can. Do. It. Is. A. Problem. That. Only. We. Can. Solve. Stop. Messing. With. Things.
19:47:30 <zzo38> Is there a journal or book for citing Martin Pool? Is there some other algorithms?
19:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because I gutted .minecraft before you told me.
19:47:41 <Vorpal> elliott, notch could solve it too
19:47:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WE TOLD YOU AS SOON AS YOU ENTERED.
19:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, please don't just assume I'm a fool.
19:47:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your own fault for not reading what we said
19:48:02 <Vorpal> otherwise we have to assume you are a fool
19:48:14 <asiekierka> hi zzo
19:48:16 <asiekierka> hi zzo thirty-eight
19:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm... no, you can tell me after I notice the problem.
19:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And start complaining.
19:48:39 <zzo38> elliott: I think it is because you kill Phantom_Hoover. Possibly, but not necessarily, by mistake (and/or indirectly).
19:49:03 <oerjan> zzo38 knows too much
19:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than saying how stupid I am after missing a single comment a long time ago when I had to reconnect anyway because of an unrelated chunk error.
19:49:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We told you while you were walking around in the actual thing, post-chunk-error.
19:49:51 <zzo38> asiekierka: Do you like my program?
19:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not at all clearly; I read it as me being invisible to you and you being invisible to me, but both of you being visible to each other.
19:50:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nope, we can both see you but nobody can see us.
19:51:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I detonated a TNT in HHI headquarters.
19:51:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...but nothing got hurt.
19:51:13 <elliott> This is because I am a magician.
19:51:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I could post scrollback from mcmap then...
19:51:44 <Vorpal> and you can see how wrong you are
19:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the scrollback I've just been looking at?
19:53:35 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
19:54:47 <Sgeo> Going to watch some DS9 today
19:54:50 <Sgeo> Maybe
19:55:21 <Sgeo> "Captive Pursuit" sounds boring
19:56:00 <Sgeo> "The Federation ambassador from Betazed, Lwaxana Troi, visits the station, but develops an affection for Odo.
19:56:00 <Sgeo> "
19:56:08 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:56:15 <Sgeo> (Not "Captive Pursuit". "The Forsaken")
19:56:18 <Sgeo> Of course she does
19:56:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why don't you watch DS78565398 yesterday, instead of watching DS9 today?
19:56:44 <nooga> do we have a doctor here?
19:57:16 <Sgeo> Bucket, irc medical advice
19:57:17 <Sgeo> ...dammit
19:57:23 <Sgeo> fungot, medical advice
19:57:23 <fungot> Sgeo: anything else i could make the alpha key work and not really consistent with a decent product, if they didn't have methods?
19:58:01 <Sgeo> http://irc.peeron.com/xkcd/bucket/literal_irc%20medical%20advice.txt
19:58:45 <nooga> uhm
19:58:52 <nooga> i think i'm allergic to something
19:59:05 <zzo38> nooga: Are you allergic to you?
19:59:21 <oerjan> we _do_ have a nutrition freak :D
19:59:28 <nooga> it never happened but now sudenly i'm red and i'm shaking
19:59:32 <nooga> besides that i feel good
19:59:34 <Vorpal> elliott, reconnecting, but slow
19:59:34 <Sgeo> nooga, call a doctor?
19:59:35 <nooga> really strange
20:00:08 <zzo38> nooga: Yes, call a doctor. They can see you directly and since they are a doctor they might know better about this kind of things, too.
20:00:27 <nooga> i will wait until it stops
20:00:29 <Sgeo> FWIW, my dad is a doctor. I think I know what he'll say: "I refuse to give advice about someone I don't know"
20:00:37 <Sgeo> And I think I agree
20:00:41 <nooga> and if it does not want to stop, then i will call the doc
20:00:54 <oerjan> nooga: yeah it will stop one way or the other *cough*
20:00:55 * Vorpal prods elliott
20:01:04 <nooga> oerjan: :P
20:01:17 <nooga> i'm the one with skin cancer though ;f
20:01:24 <oerjan> ouch
20:01:31 <nooga> (post)
20:02:07 <oerjan> which reminds me, i just yesterday saw a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_by_Internet
20:02:08 <nooga> mhmhhm
20:02:21 <oerjan> (no accusation implied)
20:02:24 <nooga> :F
20:02:29 <nooga> okay, i will shut up
20:04:05 <elliott> <Sgeo> "Captive Pursuit" sounds boring
20:04:09 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise you can't skip DS9 episodes.
20:04:42 <Sgeo> Are they less skippable than SG-1 episodes? Because I successfully avoided a boring SG-1 episode
20:05:02 <Sgeo> I mean, I'll watch it of course
20:05:07 <Sgeo> But just wondering
20:05:07 <elliott> Sgeo: SG-1 is basically entirely non-linear.
20:05:10 <elliott> You can skip every episode.
20:05:24 <elliott> DS9 is heavily linear and has many important B-plots in otherwise irrelevant episodes.
20:05:49 * Sgeo wants to see more about the Dominion War dangit
20:07:09 <Vorpal> ineiros, more skype?
20:08:04 <Vorpal> I think it is just down
20:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I'll be off...
20:10:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:10:53 <oerjan> nooga: you still alive?
20:11:39 <oerjan> well that was that, then.
20:11:53 <oerjan> remember kids, always call the doctor in time.
20:12:10 * oerjan does not actually follow his own advice much
20:12:50 <ineiros> Vorpal: No more.
20:15:05 <Ilari> nooga: Skin cancer? The almost-harmless kind or the nasty kind?
20:15:24 -!- variable has joined.
20:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: "Seeds are dried to a moisture content of less than 6%. The seeds are then stored in freezers at -18°C or below. Because seed DNA degrades with time, the seeds need to be periodically replanted and fresh seeds collected for another round of long-term storage."
20:24:40 <Vorpal> elliott, heh
20:27:04 -!- asiekierka has quit.
20:36:11 <zzo38> What is computation class of Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php language? Is it the same powerful or not, than BlooP with the REDPROGRAM command added?
20:36:43 <elliott> zzo38: It's sub-Turing, but a fully compliant interpreter can be used to solve a super-Turing problem: determining whether a Turing machine halts or not.
20:36:46 <elliott> Confused yet?
20:38:12 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I realized that. But exactly what sub-Turing class is it? And of course a proper interpreter that gives error must be super-Turing to work properly. It is confused!!
20:38:25 <elliott> It is very confused indeed.
20:38:41 <elliott> zzo38: It's a rather powerful sub-Turing class, I don't think it has a name.
20:38:58 <elliott> For most sub-Turing classes ST, there is a program p \in TC such that halts(p) but p \not\in ST.
20:39:11 <elliott> Whereas \forall p \in TC, halts(p) implies p \in ST.
20:39:12 <Vorpal> elliott, prod
20:39:19 <elliott> (Calling this one ST.)
20:39:50 <Sgeo> System.out.print.some.more.dots.because.java.loves.dots.man("ow!")
20:40:23 <zzo38> elliott: Invent a name for it if it has no name
20:41:59 <zzo38> But do you know the computational class of BlooP+REDPROGRAM? BlooP is sub-Turing, if you add REDPROGRAM command in, it will still halt, but exactly by how much does it affect its computational class?
20:42:52 <zzo38> s/sub-Turing,/sub-Turing;/
20:44:15 <elliott> I do not know.
20:44:30 <elliott> zzo38: What is REDPROGRAM, again?
20:44:32 <zzo38> Are you going to make the computational class of Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php called "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha class"?
20:45:50 <zzo38> elliott: First I will define GREENPROGRAM. There is a catalog of all programs ordered by length and alphabetical order of FlooP programs. GREENPROGRAM takes the catalog program number (all numbered consecutively) and the input number. REDPROGRAM is the same but the catalog only contains programs
20:45:56 <zzo38> that halt for all values of their input.
20:46:32 <zzo38> (So if GREENPROGRAMs 1 to 99 halt and 100 doesn't but 101 halts, then REDPROGRAM #100 is the GREENPROGRAM #101.)
20:46:50 <elliott> zzo38: Can you say "REDPROGRAM f(x)+3"?
20:46:53 <elliott> For some function f.
20:46:54 <elliott> And variable x.
20:47:41 <zzo38> elliott: I am assuming in this variant of BlooP, that the REDPROGRAM command takes two numbers as input, which can be specified in any way you can specify numbers, just like any other function.
20:48:03 <elliott> OK. Why two numbers?
20:48:06 <elliott> Shouldn't it be one?
20:48:21 <zzo38> (BlooP is sub-Turing, always halts; FlooP is BlooP+MU-LOOPs)
20:48:38 <zzo38> elliott: Two numbers, because one is the catalog program number, the other is the input to that program.
20:48:47 <elliott> ah
20:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Quick, is unionfs1, unionfs2 or aufs "better"?
20:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott, no idea
20:49:52 <elliott> Psht.
20:50:12 <pikhq> elliott: They're all terrible. elliottunionfs is the only choice.
20:50:27 <elliott> pikhq: Why are they terrible.
20:50:41 <elliott> Also, elliottunionfs would consist of me forking Gregor's cunionfs and making it usable :P
20:50:52 <pikhq> elliott: Because they don't have elliott's magic sauce on them!
20:51:08 <elliott> That... I am not planning to put my "magic sauce" anywhere near a Kitten.
20:51:20 <elliott> Wow, this Tomas M guy really hates unionfs and really loves aufs.
20:51:31 <elliott> http://www.unionfs.org/ <-- Register a domain for open source research project X, use it to attack X!
20:51:40 <pikhq> No, I did not mean semen.
20:52:06 <zzo38> Do you have any idea about the computation class for BlooP+REDPROGRAM?
20:52:09 * elliott mentally notes to never use Slax.
20:52:28 <elliott> pikhq: We all know what a sick, perverted furry you are now!
20:52:33 <elliott> Tsk tsk tsk.
20:53:28 <oerjan> zzo38: i think BlooP + REDPROGRAM is superturing, no?
20:53:47 <oerjan> because you can determine if any program halts, by binary search
20:54:14 <elliott> oerjan: are you sure?
20:54:18 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it might seem so. Can you prove? Still, programs in BlooP+REDPROGRAM still always halt, and you have no access to GREENPROGRAM or BLUEPROGRAM.
20:54:23 <elliott> oerjan: REDPROGRAM just runs a program
20:54:28 <elliott> zzo38: you do have access to GREENPROGRAM, you can generate it
20:54:37 <elliott> even a sub-turing language can enumerate all valid floop programs
20:54:51 <elliott> oerjan: you can't really distinguish two different programs which output the same thing given some input
20:54:53 <elliott> so you can't tell what program it ran
20:55:12 <zzo38> elliott: But how can you match the catalog numbers between GREENPROGRAM and REDPROGRAM, especially if you cannot call GREENPROGRAM?
20:55:25 <elliott> zzo38: I am not sure.
20:55:31 <oerjan> elliott: oh hm
20:55:48 <oerjan> zzo38: er what is the _output_ of the REDPROGRAM function?
20:55:52 <zzo38> (I think you cannot even call BLUEPROGRAM; there is a diagonal argument saying you cannot do so.)
20:56:25 <zzo38> oerjan: The output of the REDPROGRAM function is a single number. (Numbers in BlooP and FlooP are natural numbers, which are unbounded.)
20:56:39 <elliott> presumably, by program zzo38 means one-argument function
20:56:41 <pikhq> elliott:
20:56:44 <elliott> pikhq:
20:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: You're the one going on about magic sauce near a kitten.
20:56:59 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I mean a function taking one number argument and one number output.
20:57:22 <elliott> pikhq: BUT WHO BROUGHT THE SUBJECT UP
20:57:29 <zzo38> (It is possible to encode many numbers in one number. There are multiple ways to do so.)
20:57:51 <pikhq> elliott: Þou hast.
20:58:00 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Because they don't have elliott's magic sauce on them!
20:58:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Is it tomato sauce, or pesto sauce?
20:58:32 <pikhq> elliott: Þou art þe one wiþ þe mind in þe gutter.
20:58:45 <zzo38> Or taco sauce?
20:59:06 <elliott> Hmm. How much more inefficient is reading/writing to a loopback device, vs. a real partition?
20:59:54 <zzo38> pikhq,elliott: Look that only elliott wrote "Kitten", and pikhq wrote something else (and, in addition, did not mean semen).
21:02:22 <elliott> pikhq: So, stowfs is some hurd only thing right?
21:02:48 <pikhq> elliott: Quite.
21:02:56 <elliott> pikhq: Lame.
21:03:00 <pikhq> elliott: Though the *concept* would be fairly easy to do elsewhere.
21:03:13 <elliott> pikhq: What's the difference between stowfs and a unionfs?
21:03:31 <pikhq> elliott: The stowfs automagically handles the union.
21:03:38 <elliott> pikhq: Uh, so does unionfs?
21:03:53 <pikhq> You drop a folder into /stow/ and its contents automagically becomes part of the union.
21:03:53 <oerjan> ok if REDPROGRAM m n is just the result of running halting program m on input n, then i don't see how to use that for anything useful
21:03:59 <pikhq> UnionFS doesn't do that.
21:04:30 <pikhq> You could probably make a userspace unionfs-alike do it in an afternoon, though.
21:05:59 <elliott> pikhq: Or just use unionfs and have a daemon watching /stow/ with gamin.
21:05:59 <zzo38> oerjan: You would somehow have to calculate a number "m". You might do so from other known halting programs. I don't know.
21:06:13 <pikhq> elliott: Less elegant!
21:06:26 <elliott> "unionfs also stops unioning at mount points, which is really annoying and makes it unusable for a lot of purposes. e.g. a lot of the path-translation stuff in fakeroot could be avoided (and robustness improved) if you could union-mount the fakeroot directory over / before running the fakerooted command, so the changes that `make install' or whatever did landed in the fakerooted directory, but it norma
21:06:26 <elliott> lly saw the original /. But this doesn't work because of the mount-point-traversal problem."
21:06:27 -!- j-invariant has joined.
21:06:28 <elliott> Hmm.
21:06:34 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, but more elegant than stow.
21:06:51 <pikhq> Oh, by far.
21:06:56 <zzo38> And I don't know if quining helps at all.
21:08:34 <j-invariant> +3
21:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hm *prod
21:09:39 <elliott> Vorpal: ?
21:10:22 <Vorpal> (you found it)
21:12:33 <j-invariant> I wawtched the ashes fora b it
21:12:35 <j-invariant> zzo
21:12:45 <j-invariant> I don't know the rules
21:13:16 <zzo38> j-invariant: What ground did they play and what scores?
21:13:26 <j-invariant> I dont know
21:14:22 <Vorpal> j-invariant, what game?
21:14:33 <j-invariant> cricket
21:14:38 <Vorpal> ah
21:15:02 <Vorpal> j-invariant, the game that no one who isn't a fan can understand at all
21:15:18 <j-invariant> I don't know the rules
21:16:02 <Vorpal> (at least with football, which I'm no fan of, I dislike it even, I know that the point is to get the ball into the side of the game area that isn't guarded by your own guy. Then there are various arcane stuff like "off sides" rules or whatever)
21:16:19 <Vorpal> (but cricket just looks random)
21:16:59 <Vorpal> (random to the point of mornington crescent)
21:17:32 <zzo38> In cricket the basically idea is that the bowler bowls the ball, the batsman should then try to hit it so that the fielders do not break the wicket. If they break the wicket, the batsman is out. Otherwise, the batsmen can run back and forth earning points, and stop when you think it is not safe.
21:17:55 <Vorpal> zzo38, see, lots more jargon than you need to describe football
21:18:11 <Vorpal> (I didn't understand it, I got lost halfway through)
21:18:20 <j-invariant> zzo38: that's funny because I saw all of that except the part with the guy running back and forth
21:18:28 <zzo38> Vorpal: That may be.
21:18:50 <zzo38> j-invariant: He didn't run probably because he decided it wasn't safe to run.
21:19:08 <elliott> pikhq:
21:19:08 <elliott> stowfs
21:19:09 <elliott> ... is a special mode of unionfs.
21:19:10 <elliott> --hurd wiki
21:19:11 <j-invariant> zzo38: and also that process does not sound like it takes very long - how is the overall game so long?
21:19:40 <zzo38> (When you step out of behind the popping crease (the popping crease is the line on the ground you have to stand behind to be safe), the fielder can throw the ball at the wicket and break it, and then you are out.)
21:19:41 <elliott> "I'm the goddamn batsman." etc.
21:20:14 <j-invariant> lol
21:20:58 <zzo38> j-invariant: The reason the game is long is because you will often defend so that you can continue and hope to score runs later. Also, there are eleven players in a team, there must be two batsmen in play at all times, so the innings isn't finished until ten batsmen are out (unless you declare).
21:21:44 <zzo38> So basically the batsmen try to score and the fielders try to break the wicket so that the batsmen cannot score.
21:22:08 <Vorpal> elliott, how is the glass cube going?
21:22:16 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't you going to do it during xmas?
21:22:21 <j-invariant> thanks zoo
21:22:23 <j-invariant> thanks zzo38
21:22:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Still xmas holidays here!
21:22:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes but *during*, it won't last forever
21:22:49 <zzo38> j-invariant: There are other rules too, but I have described the basically the way the game works.
21:23:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I plan to spread out and build an underwater base, so I might claim a large lake if you don't
21:23:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it will need 128x128 too so...
21:24:13 <elliott> elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls foobar
21:24:13 <elliott> elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls -l foobar
21:24:13 <elliott> total 0
21:24:13 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Dec 27 21:23 x
21:24:13 <elliott> elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls foobar
21:24:14 <elliott> x
21:24:23 <elliott> I think I may want to set udba=notify. If only it wasn't erroring on that ...
21:24:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: Did you ever notice anything in the game that I have not described?
21:24:58 <elliott> (btw ls foobar/x worked before all that)
21:25:02 <j-invariant> zzo38: well no, one thing was the filming
21:25:14 <j-invariant> they vary the speed of time quite sharply
21:25:38 <j-invariant> I would rather they didn't
21:26:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: That is just for instant replays and all of that kind of stuff so you can watch on television, it has nothing to do with the rules of the game. (If you do not like it, you might be able to go to the stadium?)
21:26:53 <elliott> anyone used aufs?
21:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc that is like the single non-bugfix patch in arch kernel
21:27:46 <Vorpal> (I use vanilla kernel though)
21:27:54 <elliott> Vorpal: doesn't answer my question :p
21:28:09 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably every arch user not using a custom kernel then
21:28:21 <Vorpal> unless it is a module
21:28:23 <Vorpal> not sure
21:28:26 <elliott> Vorpal: "use"
21:28:29 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a filesystem.
21:28:35 <Vorpal> yes
21:28:37 <elliott> a union filesystem.
21:28:40 <elliott> so no, i doubt every arch user uses it.
21:28:45 <elliott> as they'd have to mount it manually
21:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, but if the code is loaded into the kernel then it has been used in one sense
21:28:59 <elliott> ...
21:29:03 <elliott> are you trying to be unhelpful?
21:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes same as you are when you do not answer which lake you plan to use. Since I'm just going to pick a large one at random then for this project
21:29:36 * Sgeo feels like a douchebag
21:29:37 <Vorpal> maybe the one east of spawn
21:29:40 <Vorpal> who knows
21:29:55 <Sgeo> Said something I know I shouldn't have said, even though I only had good intentions
21:30:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this is not your diary. This is IRC.
21:30:11 <elliott> Vorpal: east of spawn will invoke server's wrath.
21:30:17 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on how far
21:30:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I was planning the one near the TNT test
21:30:41 <Vorpal> or maybe one of the large one to the west
21:30:47 <Sgeo> Are you rebuilding Deewiant's stuff?
21:31:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is done
21:31:11 <Sgeo> o.O awesome
21:31:55 <Vorpal> elliott, or I could make an artificial lake between my place and mth
21:31:59 <Vorpal> or something
21:32:06 <elliott> Vorpal: not too close.
21:32:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm not sure yet. Or I could help on the cube if you start within the next few minutes (<5 minutes)
21:33:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Err, help how?
21:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, draining water, digging, stuff like that
21:33:16 <elliott> RIP OpenSolaris -- the last System V derivative.
21:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, marking out edges
21:33:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Link me to those possible locations again? :P
21:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, opensolaris died? how?
21:33:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Oracle have cancelled it.
21:33:36 <elliott> "OpenSolaris was just one of many Sun projects acquired by the proprietary database vendor Oracle, and although several of the others (Java, OpenOffice, and MySQL) have had their fair share of headaches and battles since the acquisition, OpenSolaris is the only one to be scrapped outright. A leaked Oracle memo announced the move in September, under which upcoming "Solaris 11" releases might be availabl
21:33:36 <elliott> e through a "technology partner program," but the open source version marches straight for the grave."
21:33:47 <elliott> System V is now dead, dead, dead!
21:33:56 <elliott> Well.
21:34:02 <Vorpal> elliott, have to find it
21:34:02 <elliott> *RIP OpenSolaris -- the last _free_ System V derivative.
21:34:13 <nooga> heheh
21:34:17 <elliott> Also the first, I think.
21:34:19 <elliott> So it's not that big a deal.
21:34:24 <nooga> i'm experimenting with SPARC machines
21:34:26 <Vorpal> ouch
21:35:01 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/placement.png
21:35:06 <nooga> and i've recently met a team from Wroclaw's technical university that wants to build experimental, distributed OS for SPARCs
21:35:38 <nooga> and they love Plan 9
21:35:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the previous version
21:35:57 <Vorpal> elliott, that one is still available no
21:36:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and could be forked or?
21:36:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, presumably. I doubt it will be.
21:36:09 <Vorpal> if it can't be forked, then it was never free
21:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
21:36:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm. That overlay makes it hard to see if there's any good mountains nearby.
21:36:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I need a mountain nearby for: (1) Entrance, and (2) Mining.
21:36:36 <elliott> Alt 2 is out; all that's near is sand.
21:36:42 <nooga> minecraft = price wall
21:36:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you get more stuff when mining below surface
21:36:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but still.
21:36:51 <elliott> nooga: "Price wall"?
21:36:55 <elliott> It's still pretty damn cheap.
21:37:09 <Vorpal> cheaper than most games
21:37:19 <elliott> Even the final price ($20 I think) is cheaper than most games.
21:37:24 <elliott> Modern games cost like £40 here.
21:37:37 <Vorpal> I wonder how buggy final will be
21:37:39 <Vorpal> presumably very
21:37:46 <Vorpal> (and then a number of bug fixes for it)
21:37:52 <elliott> Adventure mode sounded fun until I read that you can't even place or remove blocks.
21:37:56 <elliott> Remove blocks that you didn't place, sure.
21:38:01 <elliott> But you should have to build things to get by!
21:38:07 <elliott> Complete a circuit to open a door, say.
21:38:15 <Vorpal> mhm
21:38:44 <elliott> Alt 1 or Alt 3 ... hmm.
21:38:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you have to check topo map to find mountains (which you don't need)
21:38:56 <elliott> Alt 1 is slightly closer to civilisation and spawn.
21:39:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Alt 3 has less water around it than Alt 1, right?
21:39:29 <elliott> I really want it surrounded by water. Grr. I might have to explode some land.
21:39:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hard to tell
21:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, for alt 1 I reserve the right to develop the waterfall area near it.
21:40:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I could explode the land in-between,t hough?
21:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I think that grown a bit since then
21:40:32 <elliott> That currently blocks off alt 1 from waterfall area.
21:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, also the mines cover much
21:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, that has the underground dock and huge lava lake area
21:41:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Tell you what. Do you know the coords of alt 1 and alt 3?
21:41:06 <elliott> I'll look at both personally.
21:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hm no I don't.
21:41:16 <Vorpal> I could teleport there approx
21:41:23 <Vorpal> (by map clicking)
21:41:34 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be nice. I think it's about 10 ROUs above the ROU.
21:41:40 <elliott> On that map.
21:42:07 <Vorpal> well alt 3 I been past a few times
21:42:13 <Vorpal> alt 1 I believe I gone past once
21:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: We both bring 256 cobbles?
21:42:40 <elliott> Vorpal: 512 cobbles is enough for a 129x129 border at sea level.
21:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, connection rest
21:43:21 <Vorpal> reset*
21:43:35 <elliott> Vorpal: You okay bringing 256 cobbles?
21:44:04 <elliott> PH: I've borrowed 256 cobbles on extended loan, hope you don't mind. Put some back in there.
21:44:07 <elliott> Will return soon enough.
21:44:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well I don't have 256 with me atm
21:44:28 <elliott> Vorpal: How many, then?
21:44:43 <j-invariant> what is this about 256 cobbles?
21:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott, 10
21:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I was on my way when you said it
21:44:56 <elliott> j-invariant: minecraft :P
21:45:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Can't you /home and //goto?
21:45:18 <elliott> Dear PH: I've borrowed another 256. Sorry.
21:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, no due to lag I can't get out of /homed area (steel door)
21:45:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you landed and parted game
21:45:59 <Sgeo> Surely it's annoying gathering materials?
21:46:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Chunk loading error.
21:46:12 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, it is. Although stone is ridiculously common so cobbles are easy.
21:46:38 <Sgeo> I suppose if collecting stuff didn't exist, the game wouldn't be fun?
21:46:57 <Sgeo> finite resources etc
21:48:51 <elliott> Sgeo: It'd be fun. That's what Classic was.
21:48:52 <elliott> But this is more fun.
21:52:10 <Sgeo> ....why does chess boxing exist?
21:54:29 <Sgeo> There needs to be snow in MC
21:56:04 <nooga> elliott: i would pay... 5 eur for such a game
21:56:21 <elliott> nooga: because why? the "bad" graphics?
21:56:25 <Sgeo> nooga, come play in Active Worlds!
21:56:27 <coppro> snow in MC?
21:56:28 <coppro> no
21:56:28 <elliott> Sgeo: there is snow in MC, you dolt.
21:56:32 <coppro> MC is snow-free
21:56:34 <elliott> coppro: "no"?
21:56:36 <elliott> there's snow in it.
21:56:41 <coppro> the hallowed halls shall ever remain clean
21:56:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:57:02 <coppro> http://www.biostatistics.ca/wp-content/themes/biostatistics/images/mc-building.jpg
21:57:23 <Sgeo> Gregor?
21:57:29 <coppro> ^MC
21:57:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
21:57:58 <Sgeo> I don't know why a pink tie made me think of him. If the building were wearing a hat that would be more sensible
21:58:12 <nooga> elliott: no, because the autor is already too rich and he can't code
21:58:25 <coppro> (unfortunately this view of the building no longer exists as they are putting a building roughly where the camera would have been)
21:58:58 <Sgeo> I still have to know why the building is wearing a tie
21:59:12 <elliott> because it's professional
21:59:18 <coppro> http://www.orientation.math.uwaterloo.ca/2010/pinktie.php
22:00:09 <j-invariant> ashes 4th test is starting now in ITV4
22:00:56 * Sgeo suddenly wants a pink tie
22:01:20 <coppro> lol
22:02:29 <zzo38> j-invariant: Who won the toss?
22:03:01 <coppro> the bit about the dean's tie isn't entirely accurate. There are a number of reproductions given out on special occasions
22:03:31 <coppro> (but the right to give them out is reserved for the dean)
22:03:34 <zzo38> coppro: I have seen some mathNEWS stuff even though I do not live in that province.
22:03:41 <coppro> zzo38: yeah, I recall
22:03:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: I didn't know if there was a toss
22:04:06 <coppro> they've garble warble fashes
22:04:30 <zzo38> j-invariant: There is always a toss at the beginning of each match. That is how they decide who goes first.
22:04:54 <j-invariant> of a coin?
22:05:17 <Sgeo> coppro, um
22:05:30 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, a coin.
22:05:47 * Sgeo assumes that coppro is just joking around or somesuch, and is not having a stroke
22:06:01 <coppro> Sgeo: I'm joking
22:06:08 <coppro> if you don't get the joke, I'm quite ashamed of you
22:06:37 <Sgeo> I mostly got that it wasn't serious, but what was humorous about it?
22:08:13 <j-invariant> Sgeo: it was nonsenes
22:08:29 <Sgeo> But why was coppro spouting nonsense/
22:09:02 <zzo38> j-invariant: Whoever wins the coin toss gets to decide who goes first (one team bats while the other team fields, and then after one innings they switch). There is some strategy involved in making this decision.
22:09:23 <j-invariant> zzo38: how can it be strategic, everyone has to have their turn
22:10:20 <zzo38> j-invariant: The strategy has to do with the conditions of the ground and of the weather.
22:10:37 <coppro> it was not nonsense
22:10:44 <j-invariant> zzo38: really?
22:10:48 <coppro> http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q="garble+warble+fashes"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
22:10:52 <fizzie> coppro: They've table warble farble.
22:11:10 <Sgeo> OH
22:11:13 <Sgeo> It's been a while
22:11:42 <Sgeo> :/
22:11:43 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. There is strategy in this game involving timing, ground conditions, weather, relative abilities of the players, endurance, and other things.
22:12:14 <zzo38> (For example, if the ball has bounced on the pitch a lot, it might make dents in the pitch.)
22:12:47 <j-invariant> ah that would make it harder to bowl
22:12:57 <zzo38> Yes.
22:14:01 <Sgeo> What-the-fucks-his-name dies in that book. And in the 5th book. And in the first book.
22:14:29 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if that's spoilery
22:14:36 <j-invariant> zzo38: hey there are actually two batsmen, and they both run back and forth
22:15:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. That is correct. One is the striking side. If they run an odd number of times, they will have swapped positions.
22:15:45 <j-invariant> zzo38: thiss is getting more complicated all the time
22:16:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Slartibartfast?
22:17:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, no
22:17:08 <zzo38> It does seem to get more complicated all the time, but the rules have logical sense, the rules aren't just completely random.
22:17:14 <elliott> j-invariant: As Gregor said, the game of cricket is so complicated that the human mind can either understand it, or all other games.
22:17:15 <pikhq> Agrajag?
22:17:21 <Sgeo> Yes
22:17:33 <fizzie> I had a computer called that.
22:17:44 <pikhq> fizzie: Did Arthur kill it in a fit of rage?
22:18:24 <fizzie> No, though it did have a habit of saying "CPU Fan Error - press F1 to continue" at boot-time.
22:18:31 <j-invariant> lol elliott
22:18:49 <coppro> I like how not only has Agrajag died every time to Arthur in some way, but /everything Arthur has ever eaten or caused the death of has been a reincarnation of Agrajag/
22:18:58 <zzo38> elliott: The rules may be complicated, but not as much as some games. There are more complicated games. I think Quintuple Arcana is probably more complicated (in fact, so complicated that nobody has written out all the rules yet).
22:19:10 <Sgeo> coppro, hmm, didn't remember that
22:19:36 <Sgeo> coppro, the sperm whale?
22:20:02 <coppro> Sgeo: yes
22:20:28 <coppro> haha
22:20:38 <coppro> so I have this throwaway email address I use sometimes
22:20:46 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, but most of those games aren't popular sports.
22:20:50 <coppro> the website said it will be terminated by Dec 8; it's still there
22:20:58 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes.
22:21:20 <j-invariant> the ball hit the edge of the field?
22:22:16 <zzo38> j-invariant: If the ball hits the boundary before anyone else catches it (or if someone catches it while it is outside the boundary), the batsman scores four points (or six points if it hasn't hit the ground yet).
22:22:36 <zzo38> You can score without having to run in this case.
22:22:37 <j-invariant> I would have thought he wasn't supposed to get it rigpht outside
22:23:23 <pikhq> Cricket kinda is, if you happen to have allegiance to Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of Her other Realms and Territories, Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
22:24:40 <zzo38> pikhq: Is that relevant?
22:25:10 <pikhq> zzo38: It's not very popular outside of Her Realms.
22:25:12 <j-invariant> and how come cricket AND baseball exist in the same world? and football and soccer
22:25:33 <j-invariant> basketball and volleyball
22:25:43 <zzo38> j-invariant: Probably because they are different games.
22:26:04 <j-invariant> how many games are there?
22:26:08 <Sgeo> j-invariant, next you'll say that only one of C and C++ should exist or... oh wait, there's a good argument for that
22:26:19 <pikhq> j-invariant: There are *many* varieties of football. It just so happens American football and association football are the two most popular.
22:26:39 <Sgeo> coppro hates me now
22:26:54 <pikhq> j-invariant: Likewise, there are many bat-and-ball games, baseball and cricket being the two most popular.
22:26:56 <zzo38> Probably a lot. Even with card games, some people will make up some variant rules; with chess, there is FIDE chess but many people will make up variants; etc.
22:27:04 <j-invariant> the crowd are making an ominous jeer
22:27:15 <pikhq> j-invariant: I can't say anything similar for basketball and volleyball, though; those are very unrelated games.
22:27:22 <j-invariant> it's not clear whether the batsman hit the ball or not
22:27:23 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:27:26 <coppro> volleyball is a net sport
22:27:27 <pikhq> About the only thing in common is the term "ball".
22:27:40 <coppro> net sports overlap with racquet sports
22:27:48 <j-invariant> rugby and american football
22:28:03 <pikhq> j-invariant: Yes, rugby is another football game.
22:28:27 <zzo38> j-invariant: That does sometimes happen. Sometimes they have a TV camera that they can record it and watch more accurately. But other than that it is the umpire's decision to make once someone appeals.
22:28:43 <j-invariant> they even have a heat vision camera
22:28:44 -!- variable has joined.
22:29:01 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to unaffiliated.
22:29:02 <pikhq> There's also Australian and Canadian football. See, tons of football games.
22:29:07 -!- unaffiliated has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:29:11 <Sgeo> Registered
22:32:24 <j-invariant> zzo38: the batsman dived to get past the line before the ball with pushed against the wiket. It was close to within 1/30th of a second but he made it
22:33:26 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK.
22:33:53 <j-invariant> I'm surprised that it is so close
22:34:22 <j-invariant> wicket
22:35:54 <zzo38> Of course such a thing might happen sometimes. Like other things might happen sometimes, too.
22:36:03 <j-invariant> tennis and badmington
22:36:30 <zzo38> I don't know how common it is to be that close within 1/30th of a second, but of course it is possible.
22:36:38 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:37:10 <j-invariant> zzo38: I imagine things come closer as the skill of the players increases - so these playes must be very good
22:37:49 <j-invariant> unless it was just random
22:38:26 <zzo38> j-invariant: I would imagine that is probably the case. It is a Test match, so it is the highest level first-class and they would have good players there. But it can happen just by random, too.
22:40:06 <j-invariant> What does 4/283 mean, as a score>
22:40:19 <elliott> back
22:41:02 <zzo38> j-invariant: It means they have scored 283 points in 4 wickets (in this sense, a "wicket" means the play before you are out (being out is also called "losing a wicket" or "fall of wicket")).
22:41:50 <zzo38> (It can sometimes get confusing that "wicket" means two things until you are used to it, then it isn't really any more confusing than any other words meaning two things.)
22:42:05 <j-invariant> I see
22:46:59 <j-invariant> does anyone happen to know if there is a meterology channel on here?
22:48:00 <zzo38> I don't know.
22:48:14 <nooga> harm
22:49:09 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:49:29 <zzo38> I would like an opinion. Should I use Martin Pool's algorithm (but in a more generalized way)? Is there a journal or book to cite in the bibliography?
22:49:43 <elliott> Vorpal: down?
22:50:09 <elliott> ineiros: Ping.
22:50:58 <j-invariant> one of the players got hit by the ball and he wont get back up
22:51:22 <j-invariant> well they cut away and now everything is back to normal
22:53:22 <j-invariant> that must suck, playing with a sore knee
22:53:55 <j-invariant> zzo38: is that something which orders like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... rather than 1,10,11,2,3,4,... ?
22:54:12 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes.
22:54:38 <j-invariant> zzo38: I don't like those but that's just because the basic algorithm is simpler, maybe some people find this easier to use or something
22:54:57 <Vorpal> elliott, up?
22:55:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:55:41 <elliott> Vorpal: yes
22:56:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: Well, I am using it to make the program versatile. You can modify the S table to adjust the sorting algorithm that my program uses.
23:04:58 <zzo38> What is the correct bibliography citation to use?
23:15:08 <elliott> NOTE TO SELF BEEP BEEP BEEP: (-200, 1000) IS CUBE
23:18:00 <Sgeo> Cube?
23:24:24 <Sgeo> I think the reason I'm scared of this episode is it reminds me of VOY
23:27:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Cube = 128x128x128
23:27:37 <elliott> Glass walls/floor. Lit by lava
23:27:38 <elliott> *lava.
23:28:05 <Sgeo> W
23:28:06 <Sgeo> T
23:28:07 <Sgeo> F
23:28:08 <Sgeo> WTF
23:28:29 <nooga> minecraft bots
23:28:33 <nooga> are there any?
23:28:45 <Sgeo> This is a happy WTF, but still a WTF
23:28:47 <quintopia> mobs?
23:29:09 <Sgeo> I do not deserve to get an A.
23:29:42 <nooga> bots
23:30:31 <j-invariant> Sgeo: is that for the class you forgot about?
23:30:35 <Sgeo> Yes
23:33:55 <Vorpal> elliott, got bus error from mcmap
23:33:56 <Vorpal> wtf
23:34:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I Blame Notch.
23:34:13 <Vorpal> elliott, also not it fails to connect
23:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: That happens sometimes.
23:34:22 <elliott> Keep tryin'.
23:34:26 <elliott> I think minecraft.net is the slow.
23:38:39 <nooga> bots
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