←2010-12-27 2010-12-28 2010-12-29→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:18 <Gregor> BLORP
00:01:00 <Gregor> I was over at a friends' yesterday, and they were playing Rock Guitar Band Hero Idol Game. They told me to play, and I said I only would if I "sung" by playing the melodica through the mic.
00:01:08 <Gregor> Long story short, five-minute guitar solo to Free Bird on melodica: Best idea ever?
00:04:42 <pikhq> Gregor: YES.
00:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: :D
00:09:41 <Gregor> They play in some club every Tuesday. If I can figure out a reasonable approximation in a day, I could troll a whole crowd of people who think they're musicians. It would be ... quite entertaining.
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00:11:54 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: why don't you deserve an A? you know the material, right?
00:13:33 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, do people who put off half a semester's worth of work for the last 48 hours or so ... beyond what should have been the absolute deadline, deserve As?
00:13:45 <elliott> ineiros: http://wiki.hey0.net/index.php/Flatfile_Configuration#kits.txt
00:14:03 <j-invariant> Sgeo: "easy A"
00:14:06 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: yes, if you've learned the material.
00:14:06 <Sgeo> Is getting this A really going to be a decent punishment for my brain?
00:14:23 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, I answered a chapter's review questions without even looking at the chapter
00:14:43 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: excellent!
00:14:51 <Mathnerd314> (assuming you got them right)
00:14:56 <Sgeo> They're not "What is X Y Z" sort of things
00:15:16 <Sgeo> They're more out-of-the-box. They test creativity and some understanding, I guess, but not knowledge
00:15:25 <elliott> Sgeo: We already know your university is crap.
00:16:30 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: yeah, that chapter seems pretty useless
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00:17:36 <Mathnerd314> example question, just to confirm?
00:21:55 <Sgeo> "Most people think of security as a cost to projects, products, or services: the cost of analyzing a system for vulnerabilties, the cost of providing products or processes to detect unwanted activities, the cost of products or processes to prevent or mitigate wanted activities, and so on. But security can also be considered a benefit, such as when adding security to a product attacts more customers or enables a provider to raise a product's p
00:21:55 <Sgeo> rice. Discuss the various ways that security provides economic benefit, not only to an enterprise but also to a nation."
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00:25:40 <pikhq> elliott: What else leads us to believe his university is crap?
00:26:29 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: what's the course on? "Ethical implications of software"
00:26:33 <coppro> pikhq: the fact that it's crap
00:26:42 <coppro> does it have an IRC network or channel>
00:26:44 <coppro> ?
00:26:46 <pikhq> coppro: I'm asking for details.
00:26:49 <coppro> all the cool unis do
00:26:56 <elliott> pikhq: All his courses are taught by stupid people. All his courses have stupid people in them.
00:26:58 <coppro> (we got a Christmas card from Oxford this year!)
00:27:07 <elliott> pikhq: It's Random State University with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of students.
00:27:11 <Mathnerd314> coppro: what's MIT's irc channel?
00:27:19 <elliott> pikhq: And he's in a course titled "Computer Information Systems" (IIRC).
00:27:30 <elliott> pikhq: Or something similarly not-*even*-software-engineering course.
00:27:45 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so... He could do *worse*, but we're not exactly talking good here.
00:28:10 <coppro> Mathnerd314: dunno
00:28:13 <coppro> but they better have one
00:28:24 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: what's the course on? "Ethical implications of software"
00:28:25 <elliott> :D
00:28:32 * coppro usually twitches at the mention of software engineering
00:28:34 <pikhq> *cough*University of Phoenix*cough*
00:28:36 <Mathnerd314> s/ethic/economic/
00:28:56 <elliott> if MIT has an IRC channel they'll be too elitist to let anyone else know about it :)
00:29:19 * pikhq usually twitches at the idea of programming being a lecture-teachable skill rather than being a hard-earned craft.
00:29:30 <coppro> pikhq: I twitch at that too
00:29:33 <Mathnerd314> coppro: so what unis *do* you know with IRC channels, since you clearly have a small sample size?
00:29:41 <coppro> Mathnerd314: McGill, UW, and Oxford
00:29:56 <pikhq> coppro: Up there with the idea that a CS degree is a course in programming.
00:30:02 <coppro> pikhq: oh god
00:30:07 <coppro> brick science!
00:30:32 <coppro> pikhq: the university of phoenix is the anticool
00:31:00 <Sgeo> Cryptography and Computer Security is the course
00:31:16 <pikhq> Degrees from the Crazy Drunk Hobo School of Dubious Merit are more valuable.
00:31:34 <coppro> Sgeo: did you cover buffer overruns in extreme detail?
00:31:54 <Sgeo> No. Unless I skipped that material by accident
00:31:58 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: CS ought to be part of math, and programming should either be part of engineering or obliterated as a profession
00:32:07 <Sgeo> Since I didn't real much of the textbook like I was supposed to
00:32:10 <coppro> Mathnerd314: like at my school!
00:32:10 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: CS in my mind *is* a field of mathematics.
00:32:14 <coppro> Sgeo: your course is fail then
00:32:21 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And programming is quite obviously a craft.
00:32:22 <coppro> CS absolutely is a field in mathematics
00:32:31 <coppro> programming is a craft
00:32:35 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: To which engineering can be applied.
00:32:38 <coppro> an SE degree is debatably a programming degree
00:32:46 <coppro> but that's more okay
00:32:49 <coppro> since it's engineering
00:32:52 <Mathnerd314> hmm, ok.
00:33:15 <Sgeo> What, do you want to read the paper I wrote?
00:33:22 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> pikhq: CS ought to be part of math, and programming should either be part of engineering or obliterated as a profession
00:33:26 <elliott> lol @ the latter.
00:33:31 <elliott> CS is already mathematics (at decent places).
00:33:34 <j-invariant> obliterated by an AI
00:33:38 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: you wrote a paper? is it full of complete BS?
00:33:41 <elliott> software engineering (i.e. programming) is a perfectly valid discipline.
00:33:42 <coppro> elliott: decent places are few and far between
00:33:43 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it's not a "paper".
00:33:56 <elliott> coppro: 90% of everything is crap, but you avoid it, don't you?
00:34:03 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, it's full of not very in depth discussion about a somewhat random hodgepodge of topics
00:34:16 <pikhq> If it were up to me, "CS" would be dubbed "computational mathematics" or some such.
00:34:24 <coppro> elliott: yes
00:34:36 <coppro> pikhq: CS and CM are two separate disciplines at UW, actually
00:34:41 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: then no. I think I've heard enough to know that taking that course is not worthwhile
00:34:53 <coppro> CM courses have a high overlap with CS and AM
00:34:55 <elliott> pikhq: CS is "computing theory".
00:34:56 <pikhq> coppro: ♥
00:35:04 <elliott> Note: not the same as computability.
00:35:06 <coppro> http://www.ucalendar.uwaterloo.ca/1011/COURSE/course-CM.html is the CM courses
00:35:19 <elliott> pikhq: CS is not about computers and it is not a science; it is about computing, and it is a field of mathematics -- computing theory.
00:35:24 <elliott> "computing theorist" isn't as catchy though.
00:35:29 <elliott> (How about "mathematician" instead.)
00:35:43 <Sgeo> elliott, are you sure that the plot for this DS9 episode wasn't cribbed from VOY?
00:35:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Almost certainly the other way around.
00:36:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Which episode?
00:36:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: VOY gleefully cribbed stuff poorly.
00:36:11 <Sgeo> Captive Pursuit
00:36:15 <elliott> DS9 is 99.99999% good and Voyager is like 100 - epsilon% bad, so.
00:36:24 <coppro> when I look at the CM courses, though
00:36:26 <elliott> Sgeo: 1993. It predates Voyager.
00:36:27 <coppro> I don't quite see the point
00:36:27 <Mathnerd314> coppro: how does applying there work? are there a lot of US students?
00:37:04 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Probably quite a few; it's not terribly hard for a US student to go to Canada for school.
00:37:12 <elliott> bonus: Canada
00:37:31 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: thus the question :p
00:38:02 <coppro> Mathnerd314: applying? what about it?
00:38:07 <coppro> you apply, you might get accepted...
00:40:16 <Mathnerd314> hmm, nvm then
00:40:34 <coppro> or do you mean to specific programs?
00:41:44 <coppro> also, Mathnerd314, where do you go to?
00:41:58 * Mathnerd314 is in HS still
00:42:01 <coppro> (there are a fair number of US students at UW, btw)
00:42:02 <coppro> oh right
00:42:13 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal found your throne. also me.
00:42:14 <coppro> if you're considering applying to UW, I definitely recommend it
00:42:21 <coppro> grade 11?
00:42:24 <elliott> <coppro> you apply, you might get accepted...
00:42:24 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> hmm, nvm then
00:42:30 <elliott> Man, if I might get /rejected/, what's the point!
00:43:00 <Mathnerd314> coppro: no, senior with a procrastination habit :p
00:43:21 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, try not to turn into me
00:43:34 <coppro> Mathnerd314: oh. You'd fit in perfectly then!
00:43:45 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: parents are reviewing essays ATM
00:43:46 <elliott> all your highschool year names are stupid
00:44:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: which name would this be?
00:44:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems it is next to the cube being built
00:44:32 <coppro> I concur with elliott
00:44:39 <coppro> Mathnerd314: freshman sophomore junior senior
00:44:40 <coppro> wth
00:44:43 <coppro> especially sophomore
00:44:51 <elliott> coppro: and then it STARTS OVER AGAIN AT "COLLEGE" WHAT
00:44:58 <elliott> Oh yeah, I'm a freshman. But last year I was a senior!
00:45:15 <coppro> grades, forms, or years please
00:45:39 <Sgeo> Considering how screwed up my college experience has been, I don't like to use those terms
00:45:44 <Mathnerd314> coppro: don't forget the missing metric system either :p
00:47:09 <coppro> that one is just funny
00:47:16 <coppro> Sgeo: you should see UW
00:47:27 <Sgeo> hm?
00:47:39 <coppro> nth year doesn't even mean much
00:47:47 <coppro> because of co-op, failures, etc.
00:49:16 <elliott> <Sgeo> Considering how screwed up my college experience has been, I don't like to use those terms
00:49:17 <elliott> what
00:49:37 <Sgeo> elliott, first few semesters, didn't have a full course load
00:49:38 <Sgeo> etc.
00:50:01 <coppro> oh, that too
00:50:07 <coppro> it's kind of funny, actually
00:50:31 <coppro> the registrar's office tries to keep track of which term you are in by assigning "1A" "1B" "2A" to people but half the time it doesn't work
00:50:49 <coppro> (and "4C" and "4D" terms happen)
00:50:57 <coppro> even though those are officiall still 4B
00:51:02 <elliott> UW might be fun to go to.
00:51:20 <coppro> it is
00:51:43 <elliott> I'm biased though, I like Canada :P
00:51:59 <coppro> Mathnerd314: you should apply!
00:52:04 <Vorpal> Ilari, skyping again?
00:52:35 <Mathnerd314> coppro: looking at the admission stuff; confusing website
00:52:49 <coppro> Mathnerd314: OUAC?
00:52:51 <coppro> yeah
00:54:39 <coppro> btw, if you are thinking of both CS and math, the thing about CS is it's harder to get into (you can't just declare it) and you need to pay extra $$. They won't let you in after long enough because of the $$ and they won't generally let you take upper-year CS courses without approval if you aren't in CS; also they get pissed if non-CS students try to take too many because they want your $$.
00:55:44 <j-invariant> sounds like the best thing to do is stay the hell away from CS
00:56:05 <coppro> j-invariant: some of the upper-year CS courses are awesome
00:56:07 <Mathnerd314> yeah, I think I'll stick with the nice US schools where you can switch majors anytime you feel like it :p
00:56:18 <j-invariant> coppro: whice ones?
00:56:52 <coppro> Mathnerd314: non-CS non-Acturial Science math majors are a la carte
00:57:10 <coppro> j-invariant: trains, compilers, programming languages, formal languages and parsing, graphics...
00:57:23 <j-invariant> what's trains?
00:57:55 <coppro> real-time programming
00:59:46 <Mathnerd314> coppro: colleges I'm applying to have all those and more, so not too worried about missing anything
01:00:06 <coppro> you are missing something :D
01:08:59 <Mathnerd314> yep, but I'm guessing it's mainly the pain and suffering of another college app
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01:35:20 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> yep, but I'm guessing it's mainly the pain and suffering of another college app
01:35:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ah yes, the famous "Wrestling A Snake With Spikes All Over It To Death" test
01:35:37 <elliott> coppro can tell you all about it
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01:51:36 <coppro> elliott: I did exactly one application. It took an hour for the formal application, and like 2 hours for the extra info form
01:51:51 <elliott> coppro: And then you had to wrestle a snake with spikes all over it to death, yes?
01:54:29 <coppro> elliott: nope
01:54:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Look at how they lie.
01:55:13 <Mathnerd314> coppro: but you're from Canada
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02:01:30 <coppro> Mathnerd314: that's true
02:01:46 <coppro> Mathnerd314: oh, I also had to mail them a transcript
02:02:06 <coppro> Mathnerd314: I don't know about the process for foreign students, but I can't imagine it being much different from what I went through
02:02:26 <coppro> since I was out-of-ontario
02:02:59 <coppro> .win 2
02:03:01 <Mathnerd314> whatever.
02:03:17 * Mathnerd314 distracts himself with supercompilation
02:03:27 <coppro> supercompilation?
02:04:59 <Mathnerd314> yeah, never heard of it before, but it sounds ool
02:05:00 <Mathnerd314> *cool
02:07:46 <elliott> Meh. Specialisers are the only decent compilers. :p
02:08:10 <j-invariant> what's the difference ?
02:08:26 <elliott> j-invariant: well nobody really knows what "supercompilation" means.
02:08:33 <elliott> sometimes it means specialisers, sometimes i have no idea what the hell it means
02:10:23 <j-invariant> ;5;54
02:11:34 <j-invariant> elliott: managed to define products in terms of universal cone btw
02:11:40 <elliott> j-invariant: awesome
02:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, again mc
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02:21:30 <j-invariant> elliott: theoretically.. one could implement all sorts of categories and instance their limits etc etc.. at this point
02:22:05 <j-invariant> not sure if it's a good idea though
02:30:01 <coppro> categories?
02:30:07 <coppro> like Set?
02:31:09 <augur> Quadrescence: youre such a dickface. lol
02:31:24 <Quadrescence> why
02:31:28 <Quadrescence> haha
02:32:51 <augur> your little temper tantrum against haskell
02:33:04 <Quadrescence> i want my mommy!
02:33:44 <augur> :P
02:33:49 <coppro> when was this?
02:33:51 <coppro> I must read logs
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02:34:35 <Quadrescence> coppro: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/es29o/the_air_on_which_haskell_programmers_seem_to/
02:35:30 <Sgeo> Has it been proven that all imperitive data structures have an equally efficient functional version?
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02:37:51 <coppro> Sgeo: iteration is equivalent to recursion?
02:39:31 <Sgeo> hmm?
02:39:58 <Sgeo> I know there's an efficient functional queue, but can the same be said of all other data structures?
02:41:06 <coppro> it depends on what you mean by "efficient" "functional" and "data structure"
02:43:18 <Quadrescence> "as fast as C" "written in haskell" "uses 'data'/classes"
02:43:35 <coppro> lol
02:43:37 <Sgeo> equiv time complexities
02:46:05 <augur> Quadrescence: do we get to design CPUs that are optimized for functional code not imperative code
02:46:07 <augur> ?
02:46:17 <augur> because if not, then C will always have the possibility for advantage
02:47:10 <Sgeo> Is there a way to pretend that microoptimizations don't exist?
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02:50:34 <elliott> <augur> Quadrescence: do we get to design CPUs that are optimized for functional code not imperative code
02:50:36 <elliott> augur: Please yes.
02:50:42 <augur> elliott: :3
02:50:47 <elliott> <augur> Quadrescence: youre such a dickface. lol
02:50:48 <elliott> concurred
02:50:54 <augur> ive tried to think of ways to do this, actually
02:51:01 <j-invariant> Sgeo: the opposite
02:51:12 <elliott> "thrive reeks of foul stench of cargo cult" are words that could only come from reading the loper os blog waaay too much.
02:51:16 <elliott> augur: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
02:51:23 <j-invariant> Sgeo: you need mutation for ceratain things
02:51:29 <augur> elliott: the only thing i can think of is something that does in-place rewrites of ASTs
02:51:31 <Vorpal> night →
02:51:37 <elliott> j-invariant: not really true?
02:51:39 <elliott> augur: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
02:51:47 <elliott> augur: it does lazy graph reduction
02:51:55 <augur> interesting!
02:52:01 <elliott> augur: implemented on FPGA etc.
02:52:05 <elliott> memos are very interesting
02:52:06 <augur> sexy
02:52:16 <elliott> augur: core language is "typeless", it's basically just graph-rewriting-lambda-calculus
02:52:28 <augur> thats an interesting nothing
02:52:36 <elliott> augur: an interesting nothing? xD
02:52:42 <j-invariant> elliott: persistent vs ephemeral
02:52:42 <augur> ..
02:52:52 <augur> notion
02:52:55 <elliott> j-invariant: well sure
02:52:56 <elliott> <Sgeo> Has it been proven that all imperitive data structures have an equally efficient functional version?
02:53:02 <augur> stupid fingers
02:53:19 <elliott> Sgeo: theoretical results IIRC suggest that functional languages are "inherently" less efficient than imperative ones in certain cases ... at least that's what Okasaki says, but: sufficiently smart compiler.
02:53:32 <elliott> also, as Okasaki goes on to prove in his book... yes, basically, all the structures you can think of have efficient functional versions.
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02:54:15 <j-invariant> coppro: yeah I already did Set though
02:54:35 <coppro> j-invariant: what's Set's limit?
02:54:48 <j-invariant> coppro: huh?
02:54:55 <coppro> 21:21 < j-invariant> elliott: theoretically.. one could implement all sorts of categories and instance their limits etc etc.. at this point
02:55:00 <coppro> you said you did Set?
02:55:12 <coppro> Quadrescence: lol
02:55:30 <j-invariant> limits: terminal and initial object, products, sums, equaliziers lots more things too
02:55:37 <coppro> Quadrescence: did it ever occur to you to simply define Monoids over Num rather than over Int
02:55:39 <j-invariant> set has them all
02:55:52 <elliott> coppro: REEKS OF FOUL STENCH
02:56:14 <elliott> coppro: i wouldn't bother talking to Quadrescence anyway considering he's never once talked about esolangs. or done anything other than be irritating really.
02:56:30 <j-invariant> but I didn't implement any limits
02:56:30 <elliott> but hey, i respect anyone who likes wasting their time :p
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02:57:30 <coppro> j-invariant: well then why did you say you did it already?
02:57:42 <elliott> "one could implement all sorts [...] and instance their limits [..] at this point"
02:57:45 <elliott> one *could*
02:57:55 <coppro> 21:53 < j-invariant> coppro: yeah I already did Set though
02:58:22 <elliott> coppro: he already implemented Set, not found its limit. one would presume.
02:58:50 <j-invariant> limits
02:59:40 <Sgeo> elliott, so you respect me for the unpaid project I worked on?
02:59:49 <elliott> Sgeo: what?
02:59:53 <elliott> oh. shut up.
03:04:00 <j-invariant> coppro: do you know much category theory
03:05:29 <j-invariant> elliott: I am starting to doubt whether it really does magically solve all problems :/
03:05:51 <coppro> j-invariant: yes
03:05:54 <elliott> j-invariant: It does! If you believe in it.
03:05:55 <coppro> j-invariant: I'm just trolling
03:06:02 <j-invariant> heh
03:06:40 <j-invariant> elliott: that's what I hate about christmas - "if you just beleive in something with zero evidence or reasonable explanation... then you will find it!"
03:06:46 <j-invariant> christmas films*
03:06:57 <elliott> j-invariant: like religion! *ducks*
03:07:18 <j-invariant> well it's probably a general flaw of human thought
03:07:29 <j-invariant> but why celebrate it...
03:08:38 <j-invariant> elliott: it's the same with the loch ness monster, there's even a film that pulls this
03:08:48 <elliott> thankfully it's possible to overcome our cognitive biases ... but very hard
03:08:50 <elliott> j-invariant: gh
03:08:52 <elliott> *ugh
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03:14:21 <j-invariant> UFO films don't usually do that though
03:17:09 <j-invariant> that's more like science fiction
03:17:30 <elliott> yeah
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03:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikachurin
03:29:20 <elliott> pikhq: Please /nick pikhqrn
03:30:40 <elliott> new mcmap out. :p
03:30:45 <elliott> Relevant only to noansi users.
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04:08:56 <j-invariant> elliott: you should put algebra on these categories :
04:09:19 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah that does not sound painful at all :D
04:09:24 <j-invariant> elliott: it will sort of be like a 20x more difficult version of what you did before..
04:09:26 <elliott> maybe if i get this algebra thing working nicely
04:12:05 <variable> Silly question: what is the difference between an FSA and a Turing Machine? is it the unboundedness of the memory ?
04:13:08 <elliott> variable: yes pretty much
04:13:20 <elliott> variable: a finite state machine can be written as a huge table of "state1 -> state2"
04:13:36 <elliott> variable: e.g., for your computer, assuming no IO devices, the contents of registers, RAM, disk, etc.
04:13:41 <elliott> to the new contents, after executing one instruction
04:13:48 <elliott> this list is finite since your RAM/disk are finite
04:14:13 <elliott> variable: of course you won't find a real turing machine ... but TC languages are more interesting than FSAs generally
04:14:54 <Quadrescence> [20:55.10] <coppro> Quadrescence: did it ever occur to you to simply define Monoids over Num rather than over Int // Did it ever occur to you that a monoid might not actually support what Num does?
04:15:14 <elliott> um since Int is a Num ...
04:15:40 <Quadrescence> ...............
04:15:41 <elliott> variable: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite-state_automaton
04:15:48 <variable> elliott, I just read that
04:15:52 <elliott> variable: heh :)
04:16:26 <Quadrescence> elliott: r u implying i should declare all Num t as monoids
04:16:33 <elliott> variable: if you think you have a fairly good grasp on what turing completeness is, why not let my languages plunge you back into deep confusion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
04:17:16 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php has a proof that the first is simultaneously TC and not, depending on your definition)
04:17:24 <bsmntbombdood> oh hello Quadrescence
04:17:30 <Quadrescence> hey bsmntbombdood
04:17:30 <bsmntbombdood> i heard you where stirring up some shit
04:17:35 <Quadrescence> yeah i guess so
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04:18:28 <variable> elliott, my understanding of a TC language is that given unlimited memory it can compute any algorithm - is that correct?
04:18:36 <elliott> variable: Define algorithm :)
04:18:48 <Quadrescence> variable: a turing complete language can emulate a turing machine
04:18:48 <elliott> variable: The most common definition is that you can simulate any Turing machine in it.
04:18:51 <elliott> variable: This, however, has ambiguity.
04:18:53 <elliott> Quadrescence: Uh, no.
04:18:57 <Quadrescence> um yea
04:18:59 <elliott> Quadrescence: There are plenty of non-universal Turing machines.
04:19:04 <elliott> Quadrescence: So. No.
04:19:07 <Quadrescence> yes
04:19:12 <j-invariant> I don't understand Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php :S
04:19:17 <elliott> And being able to simulate one doesn't make you TC.
04:19:18 <elliott> j-invariant: why not?
04:19:19 <variable> A universal turing machine can emulate any turing machine - correct
04:19:30 <elliott> variable: yes.
04:19:46 <elliott> variable: but when you step outside of things that are strictly turing machines and try and relate this concept to other languages it is difficult :)
04:19:46 <j-invariant> does the implementation really do what it says?
04:19:59 <elliott> j-invariant: yes (but it's written in Scheme-1, which has only super-Turing implementations)
04:20:06 <elliott> j-invariant: note the "H" procedure, it's a Turing halt-checker
04:20:16 <elliott> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme
04:20:35 <variable> curious: which class should I expect to learn this stuff in?
04:20:35 <j-invariant> ah I didn't notice "Scheme-1" was something special
04:20:58 <elliott> variable: computability theory
04:21:04 <elliott> /theory of computation
04:21:15 * variable didn't see that on my course list :-\
04:21:18 * variable looks again
04:22:27 <elliott> j-invariant: btw if you do (define (H n p) #t) that interp actually works
04:22:34 <elliott> but of course just loops forever on invalid programs ;)
04:23:24 <variable> elliott, Automata theory and Formal Languages
04:23:25 <variable> ?
04:23:32 <quintopia> variable: look for anything with "computation" in the name like "languages and computation" or intros to computer science theory
04:23:42 <elliott> variable: pretty much, yep
04:23:48 <quintopia> yeah that might have it
04:23:50 <variable> :-( 4 more years
04:23:51 <elliott> variable: see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata_theory#Classes_of_automata
04:24:06 * variable wishes I could that class now
04:24:21 <variable> elliott, oh - perfect
04:24:25 <variable> I was looking for such a list
04:24:27 <elliott> variable: #esoteric suffices pretty well for learning this stuff, it's just a bit of a random walk so it takes time ;)
04:24:28 <Quadrescence> variable: you can, just get a book
04:24:30 <elliott> well that list isn't really perfect.
04:24:33 <j-invariant> elliott: should implement scheme-n in Coq
04:24:40 <elliott> j-invariant: heh. NO :)
04:24:45 <variable> Quadrescence, recommendations ?
04:24:49 <j-invariant> elliott: just make it so that executing a program is interactive theorem proving
04:24:49 <elliott> j-invariant: (you could with axioms but it wouldn't construct ofc)
04:25:19 <Quadrescence> variable: what do you know already, both in math, and compsci?
04:25:28 <variable> Quadrescence, formally or informally?
04:25:32 <Quadrescence> informally
04:25:58 <elliott> g'nigh'
04:26:06 <variable> I know most major programming languages and a few esoteric ones. I've read an operating systems book cover to cover
04:26:15 <variable> and I get how programming languages are compiled
04:26:20 <variable> thats about it
04:26:22 <Quadrescence> variable: Do you know the lambda calculus?
04:26:28 <variable> math is <= calc
04:26:49 * variable is a freshmen - so I havn't taken most university math classes yet
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04:27:31 <Quadrescence> variable: What programming languages are you comfortable programming in
04:28:44 <variable> Quadrescence, any particular book to read on computational theory? or do I need more of a math background first?
04:28:44 <variable> and if so which book should I read on that?
04:29:08 <Quadrescence> variable: well, despite its name, lambda calculus is really just a model of computation
04:29:19 <Quadrescence> variable: Have you read SICP?
04:30:35 <variable> Quadrescence, ?
04:31:25 <Quadrescence> variable: Read the book "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"; and do all of the exercises. It will introduce you to a broad array of which are highly beneficial to know before diving into computability.
04:31:42 <variable> elliott, see pm
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04:32:59 <variable> I'm comfortable in C, C++, Java, PHP, VB/QB (years ago), Bash, a few others.
04:33:11 <variable> I know Python, Perl, and a few others - but not that well
04:33:23 <variable> "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" ---> which author?
04:33:35 <Quadrescence> Abelson and Sussman
04:33:46 * variable googles
04:33:49 <Quadrescence> Don't worry, the book will not rehash stuff you already know
04:33:59 <variable> I need to learn Scheme
04:34:12 <Quadrescence> (i mean, some things you might know, but it's not a Learn To Program In Language X)
04:34:13 <variable> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ --> ok - that book is now on my list
04:34:33 <variable> creative commons textbook
04:34:34 <Quadrescence> As I said, you should do all of the exercises. If you do, you'll learn a lot.
04:34:34 <variable> WIN
04:34:58 <variable> Quadrescence, I will
04:35:09 <variable> its winter vacation now for me - so I should have time to do so
04:35:44 <Quadrescence> variable: You'll learn a good deal about computability in it too. So you'll actually have a head start if you decide you want to read pure computability theory.
04:37:03 <variable> Quadrescence, thanks for the link
04:37:24 * variable reads
04:37:44 <Quadrescence> variable: Oh, do you have a Scheme implementation installed?
04:37:49 <variable> Quadrescence, yeah
04:37:53 <Quadrescence> Which?
04:39:01 <variable> Quadrescence, chicken
04:39:14 <Quadrescence> variable: great, that's my favorite
04:39:47 <variable> I havn't started yet
04:39:53 <variable> it would be my first functional language :-)
04:40:11 <j-invariant> procedural
04:40:19 <Quadrescence> variable: The nice thing is that it's functional, but also has imperative and whatever constructs too.
04:42:49 <variable> I want to do scheme -> haskell -> list
04:42:51 <variable> *lisp
04:43:03 <Quadrescence> variable: well Scheme is a lisp
04:43:29 <variable> hrm?
04:43:43 <variable> I meant the regular lisp
04:43:49 <variable> Common Lisp
04:43:50 <Quadrescence> variable: You mean "Common Lisp"
04:43:59 <variable> yeah
04:44:03 <Quadrescence> Any reason why?
04:44:45 <variable> I was told that scheme is the easiest functional language to learn. Then I wanted to learn something different (non-lisp)
04:45:00 <variable> and I want Common Lisp somewhere on the list
04:46:08 <Quadrescence> Scheme might suit your Lisp desire. It's like Common Lisp, except a lot more elegant
04:48:02 <Quadrescence> variable: you might be interested in http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=729
04:48:26 * variable bookmarks
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05:16:20 <Sgeo> variable, maybe your first functional language should be purely functional?
05:16:57 <Sgeo> Although hmm, that could be throwing you into the deep end I guess.
05:18:33 <variable> Sgeo, I tried haskel already - but I got a little confused -- I guess I'm so used to the imperative structure that I need a crutch for my first step
05:19:43 * variable needs to go to sleep - gnight everyone
05:21:56 <Sgeo> Night variable
05:22:14 <Sgeo> Hmm... an esolang whose functionality varies based on time of day
05:22:28 <Sgeo> Night variables only accessible at night, or somesuch
05:22:32 <j-invariant> hehe
05:22:54 <quintopia> sgeo: it's been done but more extremely
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05:30:41 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: you wrote this http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=788
05:33:06 <Quadrescence> yes...
05:34:05 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: I haven't read it yet
05:34:13 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: You should collect responses and criticisms
05:34:43 <Quadrescence> reddit is collecting them for me
05:35:24 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: into a blog post
05:35:41 <Quadrescence> no
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05:43:06 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: do you have a different language to continue this in?
05:47:46 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: what is cargo cult mathematics
05:49:55 <coppro> Quadrescence: yes, every number is a monoid
05:50:16 <j-invariant> if a category has one object, then it's a monoid
05:50:28 <coppro> yes, that's true
05:50:34 <coppro> but I was talking about Haskell
05:50:46 <j-invariant> but you can have a monoidal category, which is a different thing
05:51:04 <coppro> j-invariant: what are you currently doing with your life again?
05:51:07 <bsmntbombdood> lol, more of this?
05:51:40 <bsmntbombdood> still talking about it in #haskell too
05:52:31 <j-invariant> coppro: I need to find somethign to do actually - I welcome suggestions
05:53:06 <Quadrescence> bsmntbombdood: they're talking about it in haskell?
05:53:12 <Quadrescence> coppro: that is very true
05:53:16 <bsmntbombdood> mmhmm
05:55:30 <coppro> j-invariant: no, I mean school, work, etc.
05:55:38 <coppro> or are you actually just doing nothing
05:55:48 <coppro> bsmntbombdood: talking about what in #haskell?
05:56:03 <bsmntbombdood> Quadrescence not understanding haskell
05:56:14 <j-invariant> coppro: I just finished a maths course so I need to find something now
05:56:35 <j-invariant> Quadrescence obviously knows haskell
05:56:48 <j-invariant> it's just because he said something vaugely acidic that people decide to belittle him
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05:57:48 <coppro> just one math course?
05:58:01 <j-invariant> yes
06:05:26 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: why dont' you want to talk about it
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06:06:59 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: I don't feel like making a blog post with the collection of everything. That is what the comments are for. Although I am required to accept a comment, I accept them all if they are not spam.
06:08:06 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: but you gave up on haskell for this... my question is what will you use instead?
06:08:50 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: I gave up on writing the "tutorial".
06:09:10 <Quadrescence> (I wasn't very fond of Haskell before it anyway)
06:09:20 <Quadrescence> My previous posts suggest what language I primarily use.
06:09:24 <j-invariant> so you give up on this problem?
06:10:13 <Quadrescence> No. I wrote a "haskell for mathematicians" post. I was going to write another one. But I decided not to as a result of not wanting to explain the deficiencies (in my opinion) of the language.
06:13:57 <bsmntbombdood> i'm not even sure what Quadrescence is complaining about
06:14:12 <bsmntbombdood> is it just that 5 is a number instead of an Int?
06:15:06 <j-invariant> the problem is you can't define an algebra heirarchy in a useful way in haskell
06:15:10 <j-invariant> typed
06:15:33 <bsmntbombdood> but you can
06:15:38 <Quadrescence> no you can't
06:15:40 <j-invariant> bsmntbombdood: has anyone done it?
06:15:54 <bsmntbombdood> numeric prelude, etc
06:15:57 <Quadrescence> people have sort of done it with the Numeric-Prelude
06:16:35 <j-invariant> are you sure that numeric-prelude doesn't suck?
06:17:16 <Quadrescence> I looked through the code. I don't want to say it sucks. It is better (mathematically) than the current prelude. But I wouldn't say it's ~great~
06:18:56 <Quadrescence> bsmntbombdood: My complaint was also about the community.
06:20:04 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: can you elaborat eon that please
06:22:22 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=788#comment-876
06:24:39 <j-invariant> In mathematics, we strive to rid our expositions of ambiguity, and we deem the expositions with the least ambiguity as “rigorous.” <-- this doesn't fit with my picture at all
06:24:43 <j-invariant> coppro: what about you?
06:24:47 <j-invariant> what do you do
06:26:01 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: There are individuals, however, who thrive on the “mysteriousness” afforded by this unapproachability. They revel, rather than find distaste, in the “genius” image pinned to those who can speak in this technical tongue. <-- this is very astute and important observation
06:26:35 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: rigorous: rigidly accurate; allowing no deviation from a standard; "rigorous application of the law"; "a strict vegetarian"
06:27:00 <Quadrescence> which means if something is less open for interpretation --- less ambiguous --- it is more rigorous
06:27:15 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: a kind of pseudo-mathematics <-- consider (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b), it should really be Hom a b -> Hom (f a) (f b)
06:27:25 <j-invariant> even simpler example than Monad
06:30:12 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: something is probably wrong when you’re using Functor f => Algebra f b -> GAlgebra f (Cofree f) a -> (f :~> f) -> FixF f -> a <--- where did you find that code?
06:30:23 <Ilari> Vorpal: I don't skype... :-)
06:30:32 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: the good ol' http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
06:32:19 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: can you make any constructive suggestions?
06:33:08 <Quadrescence> rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it
06:36:27 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: that's not radical enough
06:37:56 <Quadrescence> ok, rename haskell to Fortran++
06:38:07 <j-invariant> lol
06:38:11 <j-invariant> Fortress?
06:38:35 <Quadrescence> no
06:38:56 <Quadrescence> (Fortress is just upgraded Fortran)
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06:39:09 <Quadrescence> (note that ++ doesn't imply upgraded; see C++)
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06:39:30 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: anyway what is your goal in programming
06:39:51 <Quadrescence> i don't really have a goal in programming
06:39:57 <Quadrescence> at least not in general
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06:40:07 <j-invariant> ok
06:41:22 <j-invariant> I wish someone would talk to me about something interesting
06:42:01 <Quadrescence> go ask #haskell to talk to you about zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms
06:42:19 <j-invariant> I talk to haskell for a bit but it died down
06:42:53 <Quadrescence> I guess the truth I released about Haskell is sinking into their minds~
06:43:01 <j-invariant> lol
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06:47:53 <pikhq> Quadrescence: The issue is that fundamentally, the entire type system does not work with your idea of what "mathematics" is.
06:47:55 <pikhq> Which seems to actually consist of your interpretation of a set of common definitions *in* mathematics.
06:48:28 <Quadrescence> pikhq: there's a reason why the post was put in the category "Opinion"
06:49:56 <Quadrescence> pikhq: And no, the issue is that fundamentally, Haskell is trying to be mathematical (in my opinion!!!) by interpreting 5 as Num t => t, when the most sane option (in my opinion!) is Integer (or Int, which should be a special case anyway)
06:50:31 <pikhq> Does not work in Haskell unless you want to have *no easy form of literals* for any other numeric type.
06:51:13 <Quadrescence> It does not work because it was not designed to work ;D
06:51:36 <pikhq> See, if it were to work, then type inference would break.
06:52:00 <pikhq> And then you no longer have Haskell.
06:52:17 <j-invariant> I dono't know how anyone programs in haskell
06:52:18 <Quadrescence> Inference worked fine in my implementation.
06:52:34 <j-invariant> don't you find that you write some code then start to feel like it's all wrong and stop?
06:52:38 <pikhq> What, with an implicit cast from Integer to Num t => t?
06:52:43 <pikhq> That inherently breaks it all.
06:52:53 <pikhq> j-invariant: s/in haskell//
06:52:56 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: just write int 5 what is the problem?
06:52:57 <Quadrescence> No, with '5' defined as an INteger to begin with.
06:53:14 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Okay, but that makes a lot of stuff a *royal fucking pain*.
06:53:21 <Quadrescence> pikhq: Like what?
06:53:29 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Every other instance of Num!
06:53:47 <Quadrescence> How?
06:54:17 <pikhq> (fromInteger 2 :: Int) + (fromInteger 2 :: Int)
06:54:28 <j-invariant> pikhq: that's just syntax, deal with it
06:54:42 <pikhq> j-invariant: Yes, and it's still agony incarnate.
06:55:07 <j-invariant> I think you need to be able to ignore taht sort of thing if you want to spot the deeper problems
06:55:10 <Quadrescence> pikhq: Or scrap "Int" and use a library if you need machine precision integers specifically.
06:55:13 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Not to mention, any use of "x + 1" would be forced to have the type of Integer.
06:55:24 <Quadrescence> Yes.
06:55:28 <pikhq> Not Float. Not Natural. Not Rational. Integer.
06:55:42 <pikhq> Which... Defeats the whole point of *having* typeclasses.
06:56:16 <Quadrescence> Yeah, it's a shame no one has yet invented any idea of contagion.
06:56:24 <pikhq> Contagion?
06:56:38 <Quadrescence> stuff like Integer + Float -> Float
06:56:51 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: it's impossible to implement that in haskell
06:57:23 <pikhq> *echm* Learn you some Hindley-Milner type inference.
06:57:35 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: you need something more expressive than typeclasses
06:57:36 <Quadrescence> pikhq: I wrote an implementation just the other day in lisp.
06:58:18 <pikhq> And did you also solve the halting problem before riding away on your unicorn?
06:59:03 <Quadrescence> pikhq: What's the issue? You seem to be saying that defined rules about contagion prohibit the ability to type.
06:59:12 <j-invariant> they do
06:59:17 <Quadrescence> No they don't.
06:59:25 <pikhq> They prohibit the ability to *infer* type.
06:59:36 <Quadrescence> SoRrY, ~inferrrrrrrrrrrrrrr~
06:59:41 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: you can't solve LUB of a poset in Hindly-Milner, not even HM + Typeclasses
07:00:26 <pikhq> Granted, some Haskell extensions also cannot have types inferred, but those end up being special cases, rather than exceptionally common use-cases.
07:00:53 <Quadrescence> I agree that "x + 1" cannot be inferred if x cannot be inferred (under my model)
07:02:04 <pikhq> BTW, the whole point of typeclasses is that you can define instances later.
07:02:20 <Quadrescence> thanks for the memo
07:02:25 <pikhq> You are literally arguing against the entire *point* of Haskell's type system.
07:02:34 <pikhq> Not merely the Num typeclass.
07:02:38 <Quadrescence> you seem to not get the point of what I wrote
07:02:38 <pikhq> Literally the entire thing.
07:02:44 <pikhq> And probably every other form of polymorphism.
07:03:48 <pikhq> Funny, it seems to me "It can't figure out from (Num t, Monoid t) => [t] that it's [Integer] because I happened to define only one instance so far." is what you're saying.
07:03:57 <pikhq> Which is, uh, kinda inherent in polymorphism.
07:03:59 <Quadrescence> yes, indeed
07:04:22 <j-invariant> you two - be more interesting :/
07:04:26 <j-invariant> you're just arguing past each other
07:04:40 <pikhq> Which is used in almost every programming language.
07:04:42 <coppro> remind me; is there a way to define types in ghci?
07:05:00 <pikhq> coppro: Uh, should be just the same as in Haskell source.
07:05:42 <coppro> parse error on input `data'
07:05:53 <pikhq> Okay, apparently not.
07:07:27 <Quadrescence> it is too bad haskell doesn't have finite subtype inference, which would fix all the numeric bullshit
07:07:58 <pikhq> It's also too bad that I don't have a function that can tell me if any arbitrary function on arbitrary input will halt.
07:08:01 <pikhq> I also want a pony.
07:08:05 <j-invariant> "finite subtype inference"?
07:08:15 <Quadrescence> pikhq: i didn't say arbitrary subtype inference
07:08:22 <Quadrescence> if you're not aware, what i said is decidable.
07:08:39 <Quadrescence> see the paper by Duggan
07:08:41 <pikhq> That said, the Num typeclass is entirely crappy. Just not for any reasons you mentioned.
07:09:58 <pikhq> And it really bothers me that Float is an instance of it.
07:10:14 <Quadrescence> yeah I hate Floats in almost every language
07:11:08 <j-invariant> why does everyone want inference to be complete?
07:11:16 <Quadrescence> No idea, I don't
07:11:24 <pikhq> j-invariant: It's a nicety.
07:11:36 <pikhq> One that certain extensions to Haskell breaks, anyways.
07:11:42 <j-invariant> pikhq: exactly.. it's just a nicety, it doesn't give you any theoretical guarantee about actual programs
07:12:03 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: that's approximately my philosophy
07:12:04 <pikhq> s/breaks/break/
07:12:35 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: What about using category theory to specify and organize programs?
07:13:03 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: I think it can provide nice theoretical underpinnings.
07:13:19 <Quadrescence> But I don't know of anyone who thinks they're doing lambda calculus when they're coding in e.g. Scheme
07:13:22 <j-invariant> like how the type system just makes sure your syntax is good
07:13:27 <pikhq> Unfortunately, people tend to gloss over at the word "monad".
07:13:38 <coppro> I personally don't see a huge amount of applicability of category theory to programming theory
07:13:41 <coppro> but I could be wrong
07:13:44 <j-invariant> it could act as a meta type system that makes keeps the semantics of your code in check
07:13:56 <coppro> whatwhat
07:15:07 <pikhq> coppro: Well, there kinda is, but it's a bit hidden unless you're looking for it, usually.
07:15:42 <pikhq> Of course, by the same notion category theory has applicability to a child's arithmetic class, so hey. :P
07:15:47 <coppro> pikhq: well, in some sense there is, I suppose, but I have yet to see evidence of something that makes my life as a programmer easier
07:16:06 <Quadrescence> coppro: I was just saying purely theoretically.
07:16:32 <Quadrescence> I don't think the development of integers from peano arithmetic helps anyone do their taxes
07:16:37 <coppro> Quadrescence: Theoretical underpinnings of programming languages are useless to me unless they actually help me program
07:16:44 <coppro> no, but they help with other stuff
07:16:53 <coppro> numbers are widely applicable
07:17:00 <coppro> programming langauges are a comparitively narrow field
07:17:01 <Quadrescence> coppro: ok under that definition, yeah, it's mostly useless
07:17:12 <Quadrescence> coppro: numbers are useful, sure!
07:17:16 <coppro> so advancements of number theory are more likely to have useful application
07:17:38 <coppro> whereas advancements in PL theory are respectively less likely to have useful application
07:17:45 <j-invariant> coppro: do you program haskell?
07:17:48 <coppro> not that PL theory can't have useful application - see type inference or GC!
07:17:52 <coppro> j-invariant: not as much as I should
07:18:38 <pikhq> coppro: Arguably, monads actually *have* application.
07:18:50 <pikhq> But even then, you're not caring much about the category theory about it.
07:19:07 <pikhq> You're just caring that it's some form of object with bind and return functioned defined.
07:19:22 <pikhq> Actually, the same applies for most of the "category theory" things in Haskell.
07:19:46 <pikhq> I mean, sure it's kinda from category theory and all, but category theory itself is basically irrelevant to it.
07:20:01 <pikhq> (and contradictory in some of the stupider cases, like Monads not being Functors)
07:21:29 <coppro> yeah
07:25:31 <coppro> why is haskell.org down
07:25:49 <pikhq> It seems to do that often.
07:25:56 <pikhq> I suspect it's on a shitty server.
07:27:21 <Quadrescence> (after all, the server software was written in haskell!)
07:27:21 <coppro> btw, something I would like for haskell to have would be typeclasses that could somehow be instantiated with more than one set of functions
07:27:22 <Quadrescence> i kid
07:27:55 <coppro> (I am well aware of the size of wrenches this throws at it :( )
07:28:07 <Quadrescence> coppro: hehe
07:30:14 <pikhq> coppro: Ow ow ow.
07:30:40 <coppro> for instance, {ZZ, +} is a monoid, but {ZZ, *} is too
07:30:50 <Quadrescence> yea
07:31:01 <Quadrescence> i've been working on that in the system i'm making
07:31:29 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: what abot mathematically structured programming?
07:31:48 <coppro> "system I'm making"?
07:31:49 <coppro> do tell?
07:32:05 <Quadrescence> http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?page_id=81
07:33:11 <Quadrescence> i guess that doesn't say much
07:33:13 <Quadrescence> maybe see the PDF
07:33:23 <Quadrescence> in the INFO section
07:33:40 <Quadrescence> it only really has notes and ideas, it's nothing solid; i didn't even plan on releasing it
07:38:26 <coppro> Quadrescence: looking over the section on algebras; you must be very careful about implicit introduction of ==
07:39:21 <Quadrescence> yes indeed
07:40:08 <Quadrescence> i'm generally assuming there that there exists an algorithm to determine if x == y; but yes you're right
07:40:17 <j-invariant> here's a fun one:
07:40:34 <j-invariant> if A,B are objects in category C. A = B means that there is an isomorphism between A and B
07:40:51 <j-invariant> but to define composition you need equality of objects
07:41:02 <j-invariant> (to check the composition is well formed)
07:41:36 <coppro> but equality is not defined in terms of isomorphisms
07:41:49 <coppro> or are you just using that as an example of where = might mean something different?
07:42:16 <coppro> Quadrescence: I like the notion of associative sequences but I don't immediately see applicability
07:42:41 <Quadrescence> coppro: the ability to do pattern matching with associative functions
07:43:03 <Quadrescence> erm bad example
07:43:05 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: do you know Knuth-Bendix algorithm?
07:43:08 <Quadrescence> yes
07:43:22 <j-invariant> help me !! :)
07:43:43 <Quadrescence> you know category theory, you should be able to figure out KB
07:44:04 <j-invariant> I wan tyou to help me with Knuth-Bendix but you don't have to if you don't want
07:44:23 <Quadrescence> i am just lazy and it is late
07:44:52 <Quadrescence> cool alg though
07:51:23 <coppro> Quadrescence: btw, have you looked at proof verifiers?
07:51:33 <Quadrescence> yes, extensively
07:52:13 <Quadrescence> there is a difficult balance i am trying to strike
07:52:45 <Quadrescence> that of practicality/usability and that of "correctness" overall
07:54:24 <coppro> where are you in life, btw?
07:55:33 <Quadrescence> i am working on these projects full time at my father's home, if that's what you're asking, and which I'm exceptionally grateful for
07:55:58 <j-invariant> coppro: I asked you
07:56:30 <coppro> j-invariant: oh, sorry, I missed that. first-year undergrad
07:56:35 <j-invariant> coppro: oh okay cool
07:56:38 <coppro> Quadrescence: educational background?
07:57:38 <Quadrescence> No formal (i.e. admitted-into) Uni background, but I go over to the university and audit a good number of graduate classes. I did 6 classes last semester
07:58:01 <coppro> hah, nice
07:58:42 <coppro> what exactly does auditing entail at that university?
07:59:01 <Quadrescence> I just went to the uni and sat in the courses.
07:59:06 <coppro> oh
07:59:10 <coppro> not a formal audit then
07:59:19 <Quadrescence> what is a "formal audit"
07:59:26 <coppro> Quadrescence: you can get audit status in courses here
07:59:34 <Quadrescence> ah
07:59:43 <coppro> gets you more priveleges than just sitting in sometimes
07:59:50 <pikhq> Quadrescence: You're registered as an auditer. You're formally part of the class, just not actually expected to do coursework.
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08:00:10 <pikhq> Of course, you don't get any *credit* for it, but that's neither here nor there.
08:00:21 <coppro> of course
08:00:36 <Quadrescence> I see. Well I don't know what benefits that would necessarily give. Maybe it's just a way to keep you happy about paying? :)
08:00:49 <coppro> Quadrescence: usually you don't have to pay extra
08:00:54 <Quadrescence> I guess if there were laboratory courses, that would make sense.
08:01:07 <coppro> in practice, you pay for the grade
08:01:13 <Quadrescence> yeah
08:01:40 <pikhq> It also makes sense if the university ends up having nearly-full classes.
08:02:01 <coppro> but you might get benefits like the ability to see reserved library books or access restricted online material
08:02:06 <pikhq> Registering to audit means that you actually know whether or not you're getting a seat.
08:02:43 <Quadrescence> pikhq: yeah, makes sense, but seemed not to matter for the stuff I did, as there were usually no more than 20 kiddos
08:02:44 <coppro> except that someone might squat th eseat
08:02:54 <pikhq> Of course, with graduate courses, it's probably not going to matter.
08:02:55 <coppro> yeah, for grad courses it's probably not a major concern
08:03:15 <pikhq> Unless the prof gives you funny looks.
08:03:21 <Quadrescence> hahahaha
08:03:30 <Quadrescence> the prof doesn't know who anyone is usually
08:03:55 <Quadrescence> they just though I was Another Guy for a while
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08:04:39 <Quadrescence> suspicion did increase when the weirdo lie groups/lie algebras prof had a "small-group" style of teaching
08:04:51 <Quadrescence> we all got into small groups every day and answered questions
08:05:02 <coppro> Quadrescence: which uni?
08:05:11 <Quadrescence> university of minnesota: twin cities
08:05:25 <Quadrescence> that was a weird class
08:05:30 <coppro> ah
08:06:44 <Quadrescence> the two guys I got paired with were extremely quiet and anti-social :(
08:07:13 <Quadrescence> they just mumbled "mrmrmrmrmrmr orthogonal matrix mrmrmrmrmrmrmrmr"
08:07:23 <j-invariant> sounds fun though, I never had that pleasure
08:07:28 <Quadrescence> no, it wasn't
08:07:37 <Quadrescence> it sounds like it could be, but it was a flop
08:07:50 <Quadrescence> no one ever knew what was going on since the prof didn't actually teach
08:11:28 <j-invariant> teaching mathematics must be fucking miserable
08:12:11 <j-invariant> at least to undergrads
08:14:20 <coppro> I will almost certainly take several grad courses in my undergrad career
08:14:50 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: see the logs
08:15:05 <j-invariant> we were talking about your post for a while
08:15:21 <Quadrescence> j-invariant: too lazy
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08:18:23 <coppro> oh god, there's a plan at my school that actually requires Convex Optimization and Analysis to graduate
08:18:28 <coppro> hahahahahahaha poor sods
08:18:42 <j-invariant> I like Analysis
08:18:58 <j-invariant> oh 'Convex Optimization and Analysis' is a single thing
08:19:05 <coppro> yes
08:19:09 <coppro> it is a course at my school
08:19:20 <Quadrescence> coppro: that sounds very...
08:19:27 <j-invariant> I think there are some good algorithms in Convex Optimization but I haven't studied it
08:19:35 <Quadrescence> fun >_>
08:19:40 <coppro> it hs been described as the most rape to ever be perpetrated in a single course
08:20:05 <Quadrescence> (probably make you use MATLAB, so understandable)
08:20:16 <coppro> no
08:20:20 <coppro> very far from it
08:22:46 <Quadrescence> :)
08:23:01 <coppro> its enrolment this term was 9
08:23:07 <coppro> exactly 2 of them were undergrads
08:23:10 <coppro> (I know both of them)
08:23:17 <Quadrescence> haha
08:23:51 <coppro> this is a cross-listed undergrad/grad course
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15:13:45 <oerjan> WONKOTDOOG
15:17:25 -!- elliott has joined.
15:17:34 <elliott> 20:31:42 <variable> elliott, see pm
15:18:07 <oerjan> mighten be a _tad_ difficult
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15:21:04 <elliott_> 22:33:08 <Quadrescence> rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it
15:21:16 <elliott_> Quadrescence: oh, oh, and rename "Commutative" to OrderDoesn'tMatter too??
15:21:21 <oerjan> sounds like a warm fuzzy idea
15:21:48 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:21:51 <elliott_> 22:49:56 <Quadrescence> pikhq: And no, the issue is that fundamentally, Haskell is trying to be mathematical (in my opinion!!!) by interpreting 5 as Num t => t, when the most sane option (in my opinion!) is Integer (or Int, which should be a special case anyway)
15:21:56 <elliott_> therefore haskell REEKS OF THE FOUL STENCH
15:22:14 <elliott_> seriously you are the most whiny idiot i have ever seen. and that's counting myself.
15:22:55 <oerjan> now now don't be so humble
15:23:22 <oerjan> *,
15:23:42 <elliott_> 23:04:26 <j-invariant> you're just arguing past each other
15:23:55 <elliott_> is it even an argument? Quadrescence is just wrong and he doesn't really care, we're just yelling at him.
15:26:34 <elliott_> 23:58:01 <coppro> hah, nice
15:26:34 <elliott_> 23:58:42 <coppro> what exactly does auditing entail at that university?
15:26:40 <elliott_> coppro: you see they get out the e-meter ...
15:27:12 <oerjan> either elliott_ saw the same reddit post as i did or this is synchronicity...
15:27:25 <elliott_> oerjan: erm which post, i haven't loaded reddit yet today
15:27:26 <elliott_> (well i have now)
15:27:40 <elliott_> http://cadencewatch.com/420-watch classy
15:27:40 <oerjan> i'll have to reload myself
15:28:31 <oerjan> the top r/pics one
15:29:02 <oerjan> (i.e. the top post on reddit frontpage for non-logged in users)
15:29:33 <elliott_> heh
15:29:43 <elliott_> oerjan: isn't that a rather _tenuous_ bit of synchronicity :)
15:30:03 -!- variable has joined.
15:30:11 <oerjan> well i didn't know the scientology meaning of "auditing" until that post
15:31:53 <elliott_> 07:17:25 --- join: elliott (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) joined #esoteric
15:31:53 <elliott_> 07:17:34 <elliott> 20:31:42 <variable> elliott, see pm
15:31:57 <elliott_> i said "i was offline" after this.
15:32:00 <elliott_> oh look variable's here now
15:32:03 <elliott_> now /that's/ synchronicity
15:32:09 <elliott_> (i just saw that in the logs)
15:32:23 <variable> hi
15:33:24 <elliott_> variable: can you resend last night's pm?
15:33:25 <elliott_> i didn't get it
15:40:40 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Vorpal: I don't skype... :-) <-- Ilari mistab, meant ineiros
15:40:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, anything happened on cube?
15:41:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: just woke up
15:41:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh. Just got home myself.
15:41:29 <oerjan> cubistic matters
15:41:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: bet you were up at like 4 am!
15:41:38 <elliott_> CRAZY MAN
15:42:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, eh? I woke up 14:00 today, then I went to shop and made use of the warranty of a product I bought there about a year ago.
15:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, also am/pm: can never remember which is which.
15:43:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: am is early. pm is late.
15:43:12 <Vorpal> hm
15:43:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, any mnemonic for that?
15:43:27 <oerjan> post meridiem : after midday
15:43:30 <elliott_> it's 12:00 am because midnight is early morning :)
15:43:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes, see oerjan and then learn latin
15:43:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, latin doesn't help
15:43:46 <oerjan> "post" isn't that unusual...
15:43:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, I suck at natural languages
15:43:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, but how to remember it isn't after midnight instead
15:44:10 <oerjan> "diem" means day
15:44:15 <Vorpal> hm
15:44:27 <elliott_> Vorpal: meridiem - meridian
15:44:31 <elliott_> noon = meridian hour
15:44:41 <elliott_> post meridiem, post meridian, post-noon
15:45:04 <Vorpal> hm
15:45:19 <oerjan> a is for ante of course but that's not as common as post i think
15:45:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: ever had a chunk load and then unload? :)
15:45:36 <oerjan> antediluvian
15:45:38 <elliott_> btw new mcmap out, only relevant if you use -c
15:45:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, -c ?
15:45:48 <Vorpal> I use -s
15:46:04 <elliott_> -c is noansi.
15:46:11 <Vorpal> but really, why not switch to % 6 for months. So we are no in the second june I think.
15:46:15 <elliott_> I use:
15:46:16 <elliott_> elliott@dinky:~/code/mcmap$ _build/mcmap -c -x 2 -s 300x300 a322.org:25566
15:46:21 <Vorpal> makes as much sense as taking hour % 12
15:46:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, as in, no colour codes? I like the colour codes. I use a proper terminal
15:46:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: I do too! Except it has a light background and dark text.
15:47:02 <elliott_> So colour codes don't work very well.
15:47:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, that is not proper
15:47:05 <Vorpal> the way I define it
15:47:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, but the solution is trivial: use background colour codes to set it to black as well ;)
15:48:15 <Vorpal> (note: joke)
15:48:35 <elliott_> Vorpal: I find the contrast of lit text on totally-off pixels to be jarring.
15:49:54 <fizzie> I've been doing dark-on-light every now and then too, but I'm on my dark period now.
15:50:08 <Vorpal> hah
16:06:24 <variable> is the esolang wiki down?
16:06:29 <variable> Firefox can't find the server at esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
16:06:49 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/ works
16:08:10 <oerjan> huh
16:09:08 <oerjan> indeed
16:11:28 <oerjan> DNS for esoteric.voxelperfect.net doesn't resolve
16:12:31 <oerjan> eek
16:12:56 <oerjan> www.voxelperfect.net has the text: "NOTICE: This domain name expired on 12/27/2010 and is pending renewal or deletion"
16:13:32 <Ilari> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 11300 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1
16:13:41 <Ilari> Well, that explains it.
16:14:29 <oerjan> esolangs.org should be good until 24 May 2011
16:14:41 <oerjan> ...that's only a few months...
16:14:46 <Vorpal> ineiros, after the manual backup, did you remember to turn on saves?
16:15:44 <elliott_> oerjan: oh dear.
16:17:37 <elliott_> oerjan: are we /sure/ that graue likes us enough to renew it?
16:18:11 <Ilari> Hmm... querying DNS records for esolangs.org doesn't give AD flag for me...
16:18:11 <oerjan> well i'm sending him an email
16:20:24 <oerjan> what's AD flag?
16:21:09 <oerjan> i was just going by whois record or esolangs.org: Expiration Date:24-May-2011 19:21:16 UTC
16:22:27 <fizzie> Well, it's hosted by everydns's servers, that's one of the free dns services.
16:23:04 <fizzie> AD is a dnssec-specified flag that's set if the server has gotten the zone data in a dnssec-enabled way.
16:23:11 <oerjan> Ilari: what's AD flag?
16:23:17 <oerjan> oh
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16:24:52 <elliott_> * Warrigal (ihope@thay.Stanford.EDU)
16:25:01 <elliott_> Warrigal: congratulations?
16:25:15 <tswett> It's as if I were going to Stanford now.
16:25:33 <elliott_> Warrigal is at Stanford, tswett is at GVSU.
16:25:37 <elliott_> I have determined this using science.
16:25:44 <tswett> Precisely.
16:25:46 <oerjan> CLONES
16:26:39 <tswett> And now, since I cannot bear the shame of being at GVSU instead of Stanford, I will die.
16:26:43 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.1.0).
16:27:01 <Warrigal> Ooh, he was terminated with extreme prejudice.
16:27:12 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
16:27:21 <elliott_> tswett: now please give back the body of the Stanford guy you murdered.
16:27:34 <tswett> Oh, that Stanford guy is still alive.
16:28:09 <tswett> I don't know where he is, but his name is Mason Chua. Maybe you can find him.
16:28:45 <tswett> He's the guy I locked up in a closet.
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16:32:38 <oerjan> argh all my visited wiki links turned blue again...
16:32:47 * oerjan ponders what he saw last
16:33:47 <oerjan> tswett: DID YOU REMEMBER TO FEED HIM
16:34:04 <tswett> I can't feed him; I'm not in California.
16:34:12 <tswett> So... yeah, I guess he's going to be dead in a while.
16:34:28 <oerjan> how sad.
16:34:30 * elliott_ googles Mason Chua
16:35:15 <tswett> Hey, he has an amateur radio license.
16:35:56 <tswett> You can see his address.
16:38:00 <tswett> Gasp! He's a real person!
16:38:03 <tswett> What have I done?
16:38:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:38:52 <elliott_> OK, I need to know.
16:38:59 <elliott_> How the hell does Google get its website summaries?
16:39:02 <elliott_> Torsion Operating System
16:39:02 <elliott_> Multitasking SASOS with transparent data persistence: users and application programmers need not know or care that system memory is transient and must be ...
16:39:02 <elliott_> www.torsion.org/ - Cached - Similar
16:39:06 <elliott_> That text is *nowhere* on the Torsion site.
16:39:15 <elliott_> And I haven't seen ... anyone ... refer to Torsion apart from the Loper OS blog, which doesn't say that.
16:39:21 <elliott_> Does Google have people writing these all the time?!
16:39:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: EGASSEMTERCESATONSISIHT | voxelperfect.net has expired, the wiki is still reachable at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:48:43 <fizzie> It is theoretically possible for them to have submitted a separate metadata text file thing as a sitemap thorough google's web-admin things, but I don't know how likely that is.
16:49:07 <fizzie> (It doesn't seem to have robots.txt or sitemap.xml files on-site.)
16:49:12 <elliott_> fizzie: I doubt it, since the website is circa 2004.
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16:49:16 <elliott_> fizzie: Also, I see this shit for *loads* of websites.
16:49:25 <elliott_> fizzie: Like, accurate, objective summaries of things that are /nothing/ like the pages themselves.
16:49:39 <fizzie> Perhaps they use that AI for theirs.
16:49:42 <elliott_> fizzie: (Google also makes up its own page titles a lot ... and they're usually better.)
17:10:25 <elliott_> Vorpal: "TIL torches can be placed on leaves only if fast graphics are on, though won't disappear if changed back to fancy graphics."
17:10:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, TIL?
17:10:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: "Apparently this also applies to mobs? I've heard they don't spawn on trees if fancy graphics are on, but they will if fast graphics are."
17:10:42 <elliott_> Vorpal: Today I Learned
17:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, also I think that is no longer the case about leaves
17:10:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: TIL Notch is a terrible coder
17:11:02 <elliott_> "I think in fancy, leaves are treated exactly like glass. In fast, they're treated exactly like grass... and all the connotations that brings."
17:11:20 <elliott_> "(Disclaimer: this is mostly guesswork) It's more complicated than that: basically, glass and fancy-leaves are treated as air that you can't walk through. (incidentally, this also means that if you drop an item and place a block of glass over it, the item will not 'pop' out, but will be sealed inside the glass)"
17:11:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, no longer the case, I tried it some weeks ago and I could place on fancy leaves
17:11:23 <elliott_> Vorpal: this game ... so badly written
17:13:28 <Mathnerd314> elliott_: try googling the phrase. it seems to be text from the various sites linking to it.
17:13:45 <nooga> gaah
17:13:47 <nooga> .NET
17:14:14 <Mathnerd314> elliott_: most probably this: http://www.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Single_Address_Space/
17:14:33 <elliott_> heh
17:14:56 <elliott_> remember when dmoz made any sense at all :)
17:20:16 <variable> new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD
17:20:23 <variable> elliott_, no - it never did :-)
17:20:46 * elliott_ fixes up the article :P
17:20:51 <variable> elliott_, working on that now :-)
17:21:12 <elliott_> OK then
17:21:13 <variable> I'll add it to the list when its ready
17:22:54 <variable> elliott_, is it turing complete?
17:23:07 <elliott_> variable: I don't know! :P
17:23:10 <variable> actually - you could fix up the article
17:23:12 <variable> :}
17:23:26 <elliott_> variable: It's hard to define TCness in this case because ... well ... it's time-dependent.
17:23:36 <elliott_> I think no because you can't write a program that predictably emulates a universal Turing machine.
17:23:58 <variable> Yes you can - as long as you *start* it at the right time
17:24:15 <variable> of course it will only work that once and never again :-}
17:24:36 <elliott_> variable: what is the difference between an operation and an instruction?
17:24:43 <elliott_> <variable> Yes you can - as long as you *start* it at the right time
17:24:44 <variable> instruction is the actual value in memory
17:24:47 <elliott_> no, there is no instruction to sleep
17:24:51 <variable> instruction is the actual value in memory; operation is what happens
17:24:53 <elliott_> well it might be possible ...
17:24:57 <variable> yeah "delay"
17:25:11 <variable> delay sleeps for one clock cycle
17:25:19 <elliott_> ah
17:25:33 <elliott_> how long is a clock cycle?
17:25:49 <variable> depends on the processor
17:25:52 <variable> its like a NOP in assembly
17:26:34 <elliott_> variable: Wouldn't "nop" be a clearer name then? :p
17:26:44 <variable> probably
17:26:55 <variable> I was originally thinking of an actual delay - but then decided to change
17:27:03 <variable> renaming it would be better now :-)
17:27:46 <elliott_> variable: the pointer points to one byte, yes?
17:27:57 <variable> yes
17:28:27 <elliott_> variable: is the tape right-infinite, left-infinite or both?
17:28:33 <elliott_> i.e., say ^ is the pointer
17:28:34 <elliott_> is it
17:28:36 <elliott_> ^0 0 0 0 0 0...
17:28:37 <elliott_> or
17:28:42 <elliott_> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0
17:28:43 <elliott_> or
17:28:47 <elliott_> erm
17:28:48 <variable> right infinite
17:28:50 <elliott_> ...0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0
17:28:50 <elliott_> or
17:28:55 <elliott_> ...0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0 0 0 0 0 0 0...
17:28:59 <variable> ^0 .....
17:29:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, aha, so this is where you are!
17:30:07 <elliott_> variable: Cleaned up the article.
17:30:36 <variable> elliott_, thanks
17:30:48 * variable HATES HATES HATES (both-infinite) wiki syntax
17:31:09 <elliott_> variable: one byte per instruction, right?
17:31:18 <elliott_> i.e. a file looks like "010101111000" where those are the ascii bytes for 0 and 1?
17:31:49 <variable> no - the instructions are bitwise
17:32:03 <variable> but the stack (where the input and output goes) is bytewise
17:32:20 <variable> so 0101 would be "delay" "do" delay" "do"
17:32:39 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD there we go
17:33:02 <variable> I'll add it to the table now
17:33:20 <variable> serious language.... or joke language...
17:33:23 * variable can't decide :-)
17:33:45 <variable> elliott_, could I rename it to #Aardvark-tod so it goes first ????
17:33:47 <variable> :)
17:33:58 <variable> * ###Aaardvark-tod
17:34:42 <elliott_> variable: no :P
17:34:47 <elliott_> variable: it's not a joke language
17:34:49 <elliott_> what table?
17:35:01 <variable> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
17:35:41 <elliott_> that's not a table :-P
17:35:52 <elliott_> variable: but yeah, no, joke languages are those which aren't even "real" languages
17:36:23 <variable> elliott_, I know - I was joking
17:36:29 <elliott_> right :p
17:36:39 <elliott_> some people have got legitimately confused about that list before, mind
17:36:45 <variable> hence the ":-)"
17:37:11 <Mathnerd314> variable: how do you do loops or some equivalent? I can't see how to get a non-halting program
17:37:14 <elliott_> bah, notice how many of my lines have :Ps in it
17:37:22 <elliott_> Mathnerd314: indeed.
17:37:28 <elliott_> it's definitely sub-TC.
17:37:33 <variable> Mathnerd314, infinite 0s
17:37:46 <variable> its all initialized to 0
17:37:47 <elliott_> variable: ...and?
17:37:59 <variable> elliott_, I didn't make a way to halt....
17:38:05 <variable> oh - I have an idea
17:38:09 * variable adds a halt
17:38:17 <elliott_> variable: no, you need a _non-halt_
17:38:19 <elliott_> how can you loop forever?
17:38:47 <variable> what do you mean?
17:38:53 <variable> what loop?
17:38:58 <elliott_> variable: umm, ok.
17:39:04 <elliott_> variable: I want to make a program that loops forever, doing nothing.
17:39:07 <elliott_> variable: what program does it?
17:39:31 <variable> just run it - its right infinite running with all 0s
17:39:58 <elliott_> variable: I don't get it -- the tape isn't the program, is it?
17:40:04 <variable> oh right
17:40:17 <variable> sorry
17:40:21 * variable wonders
17:40:53 <variable> elliott_, would a "go backwards N instructions be fine" ?
17:42:00 <Mathnerd314> maybe... starts to get ugly though
17:42:13 <elliott_> variable: it would allow an infinite loop, but I very much doubt it would be TC
17:42:15 <variable> how about "go back to the start"
17:42:24 <elliott_> (considering all your operations are locked behind time, and you can't "wait until 12pm")
17:42:31 <elliott_> (only "wait an unspecified amount of time", and you don't even know what time it is now)
17:42:57 <variable> so what could I change to fix this? "wait until 00:00" ?
17:44:29 <elliott_> variable: yes. and if you say nop waits exactly one second, say.
17:44:36 <elliott_> variable: you'll still need a conditional jump, though
17:44:41 <elliott_> i.e. jump if and only if this certain condition is true
17:44:44 <elliott_> say, the current cell is not 0
17:44:54 <elliott_> variable: oh, and what range do the cells have? are they signed or unsigned bytes?
17:44:58 <variable> how about time based conditional jump?
17:45:06 <variable> jump iff its 4:35
17:45:18 <variable> they are 2s compliment integers
17:45:40 <variable> or does it have to be based on the data?
17:46:15 <elliott_> variable: time might work
17:46:22 <elliott_> variable: 2s compliment -- ok so they're signed
17:46:29 <elliott_> (in brainfuck usually they are unsigned i.e. 0 to 255 inclusive)
17:48:06 <variable> elliott_, jump iff it is is currently the apocalypse ? and change "delay" to "wait 1ms"?
17:48:33 <elliott_> variable: I'd change delay to "wait an hour", to be honest.
17:48:37 <elliott_> Otherwise programs will be gigantic.
17:48:42 <variable> exactly :-)
17:48:42 <elliott_> variable: Except ...
17:48:46 <elliott_> variable: You need to know what time it is.
17:48:51 <elliott_> variable: Jump one hour doesn't help; you need to get to 12pm, say.
17:49:06 <variable> nah - it depends on when you start it
17:49:13 <elliott_> variable: Then it's not Turing complete. :)
17:49:33 <variable> what if
17:49:43 <variable> the program automatically delays until 00:00 ?
17:49:57 <variable> for the first instruction ?
17:50:00 <elliott_> variable: Yes, that would work.
17:50:03 <elliott_> variable: Or better.
17:50:09 <elliott_> variable: Have the interpreter error out if it's not 00:00.
17:50:13 <variable> ok
17:50:19 <elliott_> That is, 00:00:00 to the second.
17:50:33 <variable> yeah
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17:51:19 <elliott_> variable: Then if you add two more things to the do instruction -- say "skip the next instruction if the current cell is 0", and "jump to the program location specified in the current cell"... then it still wouldn't work, because you'd only have 256 places you can jump to.
17:51:41 <variable> ah ok
17:51:59 <variable> my goal is to avoid adding the brainfuck's [] operators but still have it be TC
17:52:11 <elliott_> variable: yep. good luck with that :P
17:52:19 <variable> is it doable ?
17:53:13 <elliott_> variable: well, there are plenty of TC languages without loops.
17:53:29 <elliott_> but you definitely need some kind of conditional jump for your structure to work.
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17:53:48 <variable> elliott_, can it only jump to the start and still be TC?
17:54:27 <variable> jump to instruction 0 iff its the apocalypse
17:54:55 <elliott_> variable: no. i don't think that will work :)
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17:55:38 <variable> I need to set some kind of label ?
17:56:51 <elliott_> variable: possibly
17:57:04 <variable> how does lambda calculus do it?
17:57:07 <variable> or other languages?
17:57:36 <elliott_> variable: Lambda calculus has first-class functions and no concept of memory or instructions.
17:57:40 <elliott_> variable: So it's ... not easy to relate.
17:57:43 <variable> ah
17:57:49 <elliott_> All lambda calculus is, is:
17:57:59 <variable> how do other functions do it?
17:58:02 <variable> * languages do it
17:58:14 <elliott_> LC := 'λ' name '.' LC | '(' LC LC ')' | (name)
17:58:15 <elliott_> e.g.
17:58:21 <elliott_> (λx. x) y
17:58:22 <elliott_> ==>y
17:58:24 <elliott_> for any y
17:58:37 <elliott_> λx y z. is the same as λx.λy.λz.
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17:58:53 <elliott_> (λw. w w) (λw. w w) ==> (λw. w w) (λw. w w) ==> ...
17:58:58 <elliott_> (infinite loop)
17:59:02 <elliott_> variable: usually other languages have loops :-P
17:59:05 <variable> I havn't done any lambda calculus
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17:59:10 <elliott_> or, really, just conditional jumps
17:59:21 <elliott_> variable: lambda calculus is really really simple. I just described it there, basically
17:59:27 <elliott_> I didn't tell you the actual evaluation rules, but it's just function application
17:59:34 <elliott_> except you don't evaluate function arguments until you really need to
18:00:03 <Quadrescence> elliott_: "<elliott_> therefore haskell REEKS OF THE FOUL STENCH", you seem to have been confused about my opinion, which indicates failure on your part to employ elementary logic, which is surprising for me since you seem to display aptitude in logic.
18:00:18 <elliott_> Quadrescence: actually it's called mocking :)
18:00:20 <variable> elliott_, I just need "if current cell is zero delay until next 00:00:00"
18:00:38 <elliott_> variable: nah, that won't work -- then the rest of the program means two different things, and I doubt you could make them both do the right thing :)
18:00:43 <Quadrescence> elliott_: Which in turn just made you look ``like an idiot'' ;)
18:01:09 <elliott_> Quadrescence: well, no, you look like the idiot w/ that post, it'd be hard to top.
18:02:19 <elliott_> great, now i'm lost in this damn pit
18:02:35 <Quadrescence> I'm not quite concerned how I look. I do think people got their panties into a bundle because I seemed to insult them. A lot of people seem to agree though, but (unfortunately?) those who do don't have the loudest mouths.
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18:02:59 <variable> elliott_, how about something like iff apocalypse "move the instruction pointer backward in sync with the stack pointer until a 0 is seen on the stack"
18:03:35 <elliott_> variable: wait, since when is there a stack :)
18:03:48 <variable> elliott_, the "data pointer" or where the input/output occurs
18:03:50 * variable calls that a stack
18:03:54 <variable> even though its not\
18:04:00 <variable> cause its not LIFO
18:04:12 <elliott_> variable: hehe... I don't think you can make any of this work without a way to keep the current time predictable ... and having some kind of conditional jump :)
18:04:13 <variable> the tape -- better turn
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18:04:30 <variable> elliott_, current time is predictable now: delay == 1ms
18:04:45 <elliott_> variable: well, right
18:04:51 <elliott_> but you're proposing making jumps wait time based on value
18:04:55 <elliott_> which is _not_ predictable :)
18:05:41 <elliott_> anyone got a secret stash of tnt i can borrow?
18:05:43 <variable> why not?
18:06:33 <elliott_> variable: why not what?
18:06:42 <variable> why is the current time not predictable now?
18:06:43 <elliott_> variable: because what "do" does after a conditional wait is completely unpredictable
18:06:49 <elliott_> it could do one of two things, and you can't know which at the time
18:07:04 <elliott_> so you have to write your whole program so it does the right thing based on the condition no matter which of the two times it is ... and it's just not gonna work
18:08:16 <variable> elliott_, if I forced [ and ] to occur at specific times would that be a problem?
18:08:24 <variable> ie at the hour and at the half hour?
18:08:48 <elliott_> variable: probably not, since you can always wait
18:08:53 <elliott_> variable: oh, you need to specify how long instructions take
18:08:55 <elliott_> variable: I suggest 1 second
18:09:07 <elliott_> (and if the interp takes more than one second to execute an instruction, it has to quit because the time's been messed up)
18:09:23 <Vorpal> back
18:09:39 <variable> I added a note about timezones btw
18:10:51 <variable> instructions take 1s - fine. delays are 1s as well
18:11:43 <variable> elliott_, I can't see how I could add labels without changing from a bitwise instr. set to something else
18:13:17 <elliott_> variable: you don't really need labels
18:14:47 <elliott_> variable: ok, how about this
18:14:53 <elliott_> variable: add two things to the do instruction
18:14:54 <Mathnerd314> Quadrescence: do you know how popular your blog is? did it just get a huge boost from that post?
18:14:57 <elliott_> variable:
18:15:02 <elliott_> - skip next instruction if current cell is 0
18:15:09 <elliott_> - jump forwards/backwards according to current cell value
18:15:13 <elliott_> i.e. jump 0 is an infinite loop
18:15:15 <elliott_> jump -1 goes back one
18:15:19 <elliott_> jump 1 goes forwards one
18:15:20 <elliott_> (instruction)
18:15:26 <variable> elliott_then your limited to 256 values
18:15:32 <elliott_> variable: yes, but it doesn't matter because it's relative
18:15:40 <elliott_> variable: then you could basically do
18:15:42 <variable> that's what I said before :- }
18:15:51 <elliott_> hmm wait
18:15:53 <elliott_> variable: make it
18:15:57 <elliott_> - skip next do instruction if current cell is 0
18:15:59 <elliott_> then you could do
18:16:20 <elliott_> wait until skip time; do; wait until increment time; do; wait until skip time; do; wait until increment time; do; wait until skip time; do; wait until jump time; do
18:16:31 <elliott_> that'd jump forwards 2 after the last do if the current cell isn't 0
18:17:42 <variable> ok
18:19:06 <elliott_> variable: but you'll need to subdivide time further :P
18:19:21 <variable> why?
18:19:31 <variable> elliott_, I'm keeping time at "clock cycle
18:19:40 <variable> and leaving it machine dependant
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18:20:10 <elliott_> variable: (1) because you need two new instructions
18:20:14 <elliott_> variable: (2) then it's not even a language
18:20:21 <elliott_> because the semantics are /radically/ different depending on the implementation.
18:20:31 <elliott_> variable: if you did it "program counter modulo N"
18:20:31 <variable> hrm - fine
18:20:32 <elliott_> then it'd work
18:20:37 <elliott_> but then it would not be time of day based :)
18:20:46 <variable> I'll make it 1 second
18:20:50 <variable> and I have my two times
18:20:58 <elliott_> you do?
18:21:07 <elliott_> variable: wait wait wait.
18:21:12 <elliott_> variable: how on /earth/ do you determine sunset and sunrise.
18:21:17 <variable> elliott_, adding that now
18:21:21 <elliott_> if you don't make those real times, it can't possibly work :P
18:21:32 <variable> elliott_, I had an idea - I just didn't write it
18:21:42 <elliott_> btw you probably want to say UTC rather than GMT on there
18:21:45 <elliott_> even though they're the same
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18:23:02 <variable> I'm using RFC 2119 terms - that's ok - right?
18:24:04 <elliott_> sure :P
18:24:39 <elliott_> I changed it to UTC, since GMT isn't actually formally defined anywhere
18:24:48 <elliott_> (it's mean solar time at Greenwich Observatory technically :P)
18:25:19 <variable> elliott_, I already made that change
18:25:24 <elliott_> oh :D
18:25:32 <elliott_> variable: wrong
18:25:36 <elliott_> just checked the history
18:26:01 <variable> elliott_, I didn't hit "edit" edit
18:26:02 <variable> * yet
18:26:08 <variable> I was making other changes too
18:26:26 <elliott_> ah :D
18:28:11 <variable> elliott_, refresh
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18:29:00 <elliott_> variable: ok, so time is now nondeterministic because of relying on external data, and the language is sub-TC
18:29:14 <elliott_> also, the undefinedness of the two extra times make it not only sub-TC, but an undefined language too :-)
18:30:11 <variable> elliott_, what do you mean? it will occur in 2012 :)
18:30:44 <elliott_> variable: yep, but you can't wait backwards, and you can't figure out how far away you are from 2012 :-P
18:30:51 <elliott_> so you can't ever wait until the apocalypse consistently
18:31:08 <variable> elliott_, also https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Interesting_number_paradox
18:31:24 <elliott_> I know :)
18:31:40 <elliott_> welp, your language definitely isn't TC, that's all I can say >:)
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18:32:02 <variable> elliott_, fine :-}
18:32:14 <variable> do you think its better if I made it TC?
18:32:37 <elliott_> variable: well. I can't imagine anyone actually running a program in it, so the distinction is rather academic :-P
18:33:18 <variable> elliott_, I just need to write a 99 bottles of beer in it now :-}
18:34:39 <variable> I want it theoretically possible to write a program in it
18:34:45 <variable> so perhaps I should make it RC
18:34:46 <variable> * TC
18:35:26 <elliott_> variable: well 99 bottles of beer doesn't even require TCness
18:35:45 <elliott_> in fact C is arguably sub-TC (I think C + POSIX is TC and C + libc is probably TC, but plain C itself is sub-TC).
18:36:07 <variable> elliott_, well yeah: if there was some operation that resulted in 99 bottles of beer....
18:36:15 <variable> why is plain C non TC
18:36:19 <elliott_> variable: nope, there are plenty of languages with loops that aren't TC
18:36:27 <elliott_> e.g. "loop from 0 to N" for fixed N
18:36:31 <elliott_> variable: plain C is non-TC because of sizeof
18:36:33 <elliott_> consider,
18:36:38 <elliott_> all pointers must be castable to (void *)
18:36:43 <elliott_> sizeof(void *) must be an integer
18:36:46 <elliott_> therefore pointers must have finite size
18:36:50 <elliott_> and therefore the addressable memory is finite
18:36:51 <elliott_> QED
18:37:10 <elliott_> now, sizeof is measured in chars
18:37:11 <elliott_> so
18:37:18 <elliott_> sizeof(void *) = 1 where char is a big-num could work
18:37:21 <elliott_> except for CHAR_BIT :)
18:37:31 <variable> elliott_, so if I removed the google source and changed those two times it wouldbe TC ?
18:37:41 <elliott_> but since CHAR_BIT is in the libc you could argue it works ...
18:37:52 <elliott_> variable: I don't know, it's really hard to demonstrate TCness... but I think it would be quite likely, yes :)
18:38:03 <elliott_> really hard = write a BF interpreter in it is the easiest way
18:38:14 <variable> why ?
18:39:01 <elliott_> variable: why what?
18:39:32 <variable> elliott_, "based on a pre-generated table supplied to the interpreter?"
18:39:35 <variable> for the TZ
18:39:49 <variable> and "why is it so hard to demonstrate TCness?"
18:40:10 <elliott_> variable: because you essentially have to demonstrate an isomorphism to another TC language
18:40:18 <elliott_> showing a table with BF instruction --> equivalent TOD code on the right would be sufficient
18:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, that that gravel I threw you
18:41:43 <variable> elliott_, refresh
18:42:38 <variable> elliott_, would "based on a pregenerated table" be sufficient for sunrise and senset
18:42:48 <elliott_> variable: yeah, as long as you specify the table in the article
18:43:02 <variable> ah - ok
18:43:42 <variable> elliott_, I can't have it "user supplied"
18:43:43 <elliott_> variable: I'd just set it at, e.g., 7pm
18:43:52 <elliott_> variable: no, you can't, because then the TCness of the lang would depend on the table :)
18:43:54 <elliott_> and also the behaviour of programs
18:44:10 <variable> I want it to vary in the summer and winter
18:44:50 <variable> and location
18:45:32 <elliott_> variable: then the language is sub-TC
18:45:40 <elliott_> because a program that works in summer won't work in winter
18:45:58 <elliott_> variable: well, ok, if you specified the timezone and season to execute it'd be TC
18:46:01 <elliott_> but still :p
18:46:04 <elliott_> i mean
18:46:10 <elliott_> it'd really be tz*season languages
18:46:16 <elliott_> and all of them would be TC
18:46:22 <elliott_> but programs won't only work in one of them
18:46:23 <variable> fine
18:46:39 <variable> I'll set it to 7am/7pm
18:47:37 <variable> elliott_, refresh
18:48:16 <elliott_> variable: ok. I think it is TC then.
18:48:34 <elliott_> variable: but i can't be sure :)
18:48:42 <variable> heh
18:48:59 <variable> elliott_, now.. to write hello world :-}
18:49:18 <elliott_> variable: good luck with that.
18:49:33 <elliott_> variable: you'll need a lot of nop*3600 :P
18:50:03 <variable> elliott_, I should add a note that "programmers without large HDDs should probably write in a compressed format
18:51:36 <elliott_> variable: Mind you, 3600 nops is only 450 bytes.
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18:55:33 <variable> elliott_, tyvm
18:55:47 <elliott_> np :P
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19:23:41 <elliott_> fizzie: You store gravel right? Can we borrow some? (To give back.) We're emptying the Cube.
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19:31:34 * Ilari would like to see IPv6 exhaustion counter. The "addresses left" counter would go down at an impressive rate, but the number would have 37 digits...
19:33:36 <fizzie> elliott_: No, I've been throwing all my gravel into lava.
19:33:48 <elliott_> fizzie: Bah!
19:34:08 <elliott_> fizzie: For your inconsiderateness, you must help the mind-numbing work of excavation and draining. (Hey, we already have a glass wireframe. :p)
19:34:56 <Ilari> Even 10^20 addresses allocated per second is not enough to exhaust IPv6 address space before the Sun fries Earth...
19:38:47 <Ilari> Okay, that might be low rate. Let's throw a factor of 1000 more. That's still over 10 million years...
19:41:30 <elliott_> fizzie: I DON'T SEE YOU HELPING
19:43:57 <Ilari> This month (according to latest data I have) 28 126 260 029 466 696 220 239 013 609 472 IPv6 addresses have been allocated/delegated.
19:46:54 <Ilari> Okay, that's good bit more than 10^20 (or even 10^23) per second... Like 120 * 10^23 per second... At current rate, current unicast IPv6 space would be exhausted in about 100 000 years...
19:50:13 <oerjan> that pesky Y100K problem
19:50:47 <Ilari> 1.5 trillion IPv6 network prefixes allocated/delegated this motnth...
19:51:15 <Vorpal> Ilari, heh
19:51:35 <oerjan> otoh i humanity hasn't developed a way of efficiently fixing problems long before then, it's doomed anyway
19:51:38 <oerjan> *if
19:51:50 <oerjan> there is something fishy about my f key
19:52:49 <Ilari> And that isn't even one millionth of current unicast space...
19:53:47 <elliott_> fizzie: Can we borrow sand then? :p
19:54:20 <Ilari> Oh, and seems like for universal IPv6, one would need few quadrillion subnetwork prefixes...
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20:08:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup
20:08:58 <Vorpal> will check when MC isn't running
20:51:44 <elliott_> fizzie: We hereby ENSLAVE you.
21:09:34 <variable> elliott_, working on a python implementation of TOD
21:09:46 <elliott_> variable: cool
21:16:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: I went to -200 10000 by mistake >_<
21:17:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, well what happened
21:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, also write code to save bookmarks
21:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, or such
21:17:33 <variable> I love that story :-)
21:18:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, also wrt link above: "The story is most commonly known as nail soup in Scandinavian and Northern European countries." <-- oh that
21:22:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:22:51 <elliott_> Open source stone soup: exactly like stone soup, except the travellers had to supply all the ingredients instead, and then someone dropped some mud in it
21:23:30 <Sgeo> elliott_, someone saying something stupid about open source?
21:23:38 <elliott_> Sgeo: Nope, that was me saying that.
21:26:21 <Gregor> 's pretty stupid though.
21:26:26 <elliott_> Gregor: That's why it was a joke.
21:26:32 <elliott_> ...well, 90% a joke.
21:26:43 <Gregor> So's your mom, but you don't see her complaining.
21:26:51 <elliott_> I don't remember the last time I saw an open source project that got started with a single stone (a README, say) :-P
21:27:07 <Sgeo> "Subtlety is my ex's name." "At least, I think she's my ex now. She wasn't very clear about it."
21:27:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:27:20 <elliott_> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion
21:27:22 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover! Hello!
21:27:28 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: CUBE CONSTRUCTION IS START
21:27:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, word seen on wikipedia: "sphericity"
21:27:30 <Vorpal> (I like it)
21:27:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: xD
21:27:34 <elliott_> sphericalosity
21:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, consistent internet connection, how I have missed you!
21:27:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, the sentence was "Then the part is honed to improve a form characteristic such as roundness, flatness, cylindricity, or sphericity."
21:27:56 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Set your visor-goggles (fog) to Far, and //goto -200 1000.
21:28:05 * Sgeo does want to play Minecraft :/
21:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Will do!
21:28:11 <Sgeo> Or at least, explore the worlds
21:28:12 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: BTW: You really want far.
21:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I awesomised my SSP world.
21:28:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so buy it?
21:28:20 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Otherwise you can't see the wireframe.
21:28:33 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: P.S. I've sort of used some of HHI's duplicated TNT to help excavate... please don't hurt me
21:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, you're demoted to junior undersecretary of juniority!
21:29:07 <elliott_> That's great, I can steal more under the radar!
21:29:17 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ALSO ALSO: /kit g gets you a shitload of glass. And if you don't have enough inventory it goes into your armour slots. And YOU ACTUALLY GET A GLASS ORB ON YOUR HEAD.
21:29:22 <elliott_> It is HILARIOUS.
21:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> AWESOME
21:29:55 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: BTW: Reconnect after //goto.
21:29:58 <elliott_> You become invisible if you don't.
21:30:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
21:30:22 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Because you do.
21:31:57 <Sgeo> http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/heart_stopping_medics_limit_cpr_7Ahv46Qfw6NXpYklWpMhiO
21:36:14 <Ilari> Hah... Fail: Official Food pyramid: 60% carbohydrate, 25% fat, 15% protein. Cattle rancher animal feed formula for fattening animals: 61% carbohydrate, 25% fat, 14% protein.
21:36:43 <coppro> Hah
21:37:38 <Ilari> Okay, 60% carbs, 25% fat and 15% of protein diet can be reasonable if one picks carb and fat sources well (definitely not the way food pyramid recomends).
21:38:09 <coppro> yeah, pretty lulzy
21:38:16 <coppro> there's a difference though
21:38:33 <coppro> in that the ranchers are not in the business of mining fat deposits
21:38:38 <coppro> they want fatty meat
21:38:41 <coppro> but the mean must still be ther
21:38:45 <coppro> *meat
21:38:46 <coppro> *there
21:40:27 <Ilari> IIRC, there was some primitive (i.e. healthy) population with diet approximately 70% carbs, 20% fat (15% saturated!) and 10% protein...
21:43:57 <oerjan> Ilari: so basically the food pyramid is perfect for cannibals?
21:44:30 <Ilari> If one wanted to look who food pyramid is good for, it is pharma companies...
21:46:11 <coppro> everything is goddamn good for the goddamn pharma companies :(
21:46:27 <Sgeo> "This leads to a problem. When there are an infinite number of instances of every possible observation, it becomes impossible to determine the probabilities of any of these events occurring. And when that happens, the laws of physics simply don't apply. They just break down. "This is known as the "measure problem" of eternal inflation," say Bousso and buddies"
21:46:44 <Sgeo> I assume that it's the journalist screwing that up, because what I just read makes no sense
21:46:48 <Sgeo> http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25807/
21:48:52 -!- zeotrope has joined.
21:59:34 <Ilari> Sort it randomly and compute the limits as number of observations increases?
22:00:01 <coppro> Sgeo: No, I think they're serious
22:00:36 <Sgeo> coppro, is there some sort of math going on that makes more sense than what was in that article?
22:00:44 <Sgeo> That's what I'm caught up on
22:01:10 <Sgeo> Or are people just being dumbfarks? I don't want to just make that assumption
22:01:12 <coppro> Sgeo: did it occur to you to read the paper?
22:02:05 <Sgeo> No :/
22:02:10 * Sgeo goes to look at it
22:03:25 <Sgeo> The first two paragraphs say pretty much the same thing
22:03:33 * Sgeo sees something that may be useful in the next
22:04:58 <Sgeo> Why not just make the calculations for a given amount of space in a given amount of time?
22:05:29 <Sgeo> Oh, is that what they're saying?
22:06:18 <Sgeo> " Some
22:06:18 <Sgeo> observers will have their lives interrupted by the cuto"
22:06:23 <Sgeo> How is that interesting?
22:07:53 <Sgeo> This cutoff they are talking about. I thought it was a mathematical tool so they don't have to look at everything. Why are they talking about it as though it has a physical reality
22:07:55 <Sgeo> I don't get it
22:09:04 <coppro> me neither
22:09:18 <coppro> but the argument "math doesn't work so it won't happen" is one worth considering
22:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, if you carry any sand: use it now
22:13:21 * Sgeo ponders switching back to Opera
22:13:52 <coppro> play more netcraft imo
22:13:56 <coppro> it has vertex shaders
22:17:06 -!- j-invariant has joined.
22:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> CRAZY PHYSICS IDEA #2: Hawking generator.
22:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Make black hole. Stabilise mass loss due to Hawking radiation by pouring junk into it. ??? Profit!
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Any fatal flaws I've missed?
22:24:05 <Sgeo> How much energy does it take to put junk into it?
22:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, "negative".
22:25:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You could get even more energy from the gravitational potential were it not for the fact that once you have a method for total mass-to-energy conversion, which I think this is, your energy needs are basically solved.
22:25:16 <elliott_> coppro: does netcraft actually have a release at all
22:25:26 <coppro> elliott_: no
22:25:38 <coppro> I'm just trolling
22:25:40 <elliott_> coppro: a public source repository? :p
22:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Link?
22:25:47 <coppro> it's semipublic
22:26:18 <Sgeo> Umm... isn't Hawking radiation basically matter?
22:26:23 <coppro> no
22:26:52 <Sgeo> Wait, what types of particles are "formed"?
22:26:58 <coppro> mostly photons
22:27:05 <coppro> which usually aren't considered matter
22:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, I thought it was matter and antimatter in equal proportion?
22:27:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So photons if you wait a while.
22:27:29 <coppro> photons are their own antiparticles
22:27:45 <elliott_> ergo, photons meeting photons = explosion
22:27:49 <elliott_> ergo, shining two lasers at the earth = BOOM
22:27:51 <j-invariant> Everywhere in the quantum foam of spacetime, particle-antiparticle pairs spontaneously appear then anhillate eache other.
22:28:16 <elliott_> j-invariant: no silly it's all made out of tiny vibrating strings!
22:28:19 <j-invariant> When this happens right at the edge of a black hole, it's possible that one of the partcles gets sucked in, so that the other has nothing to anhillate against
22:28:28 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, yes, that's my understanding.
22:28:43 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: yes, your idea is crazy but Just Might Work
22:28:52 <coppro> there are two problems thought
22:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, I know, mass.
22:29:01 <coppro> #1 is capturing the radiation
22:29:07 <coppro> #2 is feeding the mass at the right rate
22:29:43 <j-invariant> elliott_: I thought this was a consequence of string theory
22:29:44 * Sgeo suddenly wants portable black holes for use in spaceships
22:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, naaaa.
22:30:01 <j-invariant> elliott_: I don't know how this quantum foam arises though
22:30:02 <elliott_> j-invariant: i was joking :)
22:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't even move black holes without massive gravitational forces.
22:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But configurations of holes in orbit, now...
22:31:11 <Sgeo> How much Hawking radiation do black holes emit? Enough to be usable?
22:31:29 <coppro> why did I never see git's description before?
22:31:39 <j-invariant> Sgeo: I think it has been experimentally detected in a lab recently
22:31:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the formula is on the WP article.
22:32:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, for a black hole with mass M:
22:32:26 <j-invariant> yikes, some guy in the ashes tried to catch the ball but it just slapped his thumb
22:32:36 <Sgeo> "catch"?
22:32:55 <Sgeo> For some reason, I thought in cricket, the ball was usually on the ground
22:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> P = \frac{\hbar c^6}{15360\pi G^2 M^2}
22:33:17 <Sgeo> hbar?
22:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> h/2\pi IIRC
22:33:30 <j-invariant> Sgeo: well someone throws it, then the batsman hits it, after going through the air it rolls for a while
22:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, aaaaaaaorganisedsportgetitaway
22:33:53 <Sgeo> What if someone gets killed by the ball? It happens in baseball :(
22:34:14 <j-invariant> Sgeo: wow. I didn't know thatt
22:34:22 <elliott_> <coppro> why did I never see git's description before?
22:34:23 <elliott_> what?
22:34:27 <j-invariant> yesterday the batsman got hit in the knee but he did keep playng
22:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, let's calculate the mass necessary for you to get a 1 on the Kardashev scale!
22:34:39 <Sgeo> http://www.northjersey.com/sports/hs_sports/120510_Garfield_deals_with_grief_as_probe_continues_in_teen_baseball_players_death.html
22:34:43 <elliott_> j-invariant: are the ashes worth watching
22:34:46 <elliott_> Sgeo: poor cat
22:34:50 <elliott_> all he wants is some lasanga
22:34:58 <elliott_> *lasagna
22:34:59 <elliott_> wt
22:35:00 <elliott_> f
22:35:04 <elliott_> that's a word, spellchecker.
22:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the Mathematica thing to rearrange an equation so a given variable is dependent?
22:35:36 <j-invariant> elliott_: well that's what I am trying to find out
22:35:49 <elliott_> j-invariant: you haven't figured it out yet? :D
22:35:52 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: what?
22:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, !
22:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sod it, the equation is trivial to rearrange.
22:36:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: what
22:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, you pick that up, not me
22:38:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It annoys me that h is an angular momentum, yet they have no immediately obvious relation.
22:39:35 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: random names in mathematics? shocking
22:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, no, it's the dimensions.
22:40:20 <elliott_> ah
22:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> h : m^2*kg*s^-2
22:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Angular momentum is the same.
22:41:10 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: torques are energy!
22:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, it's so crazy!
22:41:42 <coppro> lesson: just because the units work out doesn't mean you're right
22:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, but it's so inelegant!
22:46:50 <j-invariant> elliott_: I definitely don't "get" it.. yet(?)
22:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, who wants to know the mass of the Hawking generator needed to produce a watt of power!
22:47:18 <elliott_> j-invariant: I think you need to, like, blend fifty rule books into a smoothie and drink it every day for five weeks
22:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It turns out to be 5*10^-17kg!
22:48:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
22:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> This may be a problem...
22:48:24 <j-invariant> lol
22:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, the slightest disturbance in the mass you're feeding in and you end up with no black hole and a gamma ray explosion.
22:49:32 <coppro> lol
22:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> HMM.
22:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the good news is that Sgeo's dream of having one on his spaceship is fulfillable!
22:50:02 <j-invariant> I don't get how this blog post has led to so much discussion
22:50:18 <j-invariant> I guess haskell folks juts hate the idea of being a cargo cult so much
22:50:34 <coppro> rofl
22:51:12 <Ilari> How it scales with power? What would be the mass for 1kW?
22:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, the larger the power the smaller the hole.
22:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I've messed this up.
22:53:06 <coppro> no actually that's right
22:53:15 <coppro> Hawking radiation is quicker in smaller black holes
22:53:44 <j-invariant> I don't understand that
22:53:47 <j-invariant> how does that work?
22:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, yeah, and my formula doesn't get that.
22:54:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, gradient of space around hole something something something physics.
22:54:35 <j-invariant> oh curvature I see
22:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oho, that's why the formula is wrong!
22:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, NOW it works.
22:56:14 <coppro> it's like how surface gravity of a black hole is really weak
22:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so now I have 2e16 for the mass of a 1-Watt Hawking generator.
22:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> MUCH more practical.
22:56:44 <elliott_> Very.
22:56:46 <oerjan> kg?
22:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes.
22:57:05 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: how much for 1 megawatt >:)
22:57:07 <elliott_> or does it scale linearly
22:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, it scales 1/square rootly.
22:57:41 <oerjan> so 2e13?
22:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> So a huge amount of power is actually far less mass.
22:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yep!
22:58:09 <coppro> but of course you would need to put more mass in to keep it going
22:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, this is where the real practical problems come in.
22:58:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to compensate the mass loss, which doesn't take much mass, but is tricky for very small holes.
22:59:19 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: so how much energy for 1 kg
22:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Type 1 on the Kardashev scale is 1e16, so...
22:59:31 <Ilari> 1kg of mass suppiles about 90PJ...
22:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, it's quite simple, it's just e=mc^2.
22:59:37 -!- calamari has joined.
22:59:40 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: oh ofc
22:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> And P=E/t
22:59:48 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: but you see, you're forgetting
22:59:50 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I'M LAZY
23:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 10^8 would get you to Type 1 on the Kardashev scale.
23:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> But this is where the real problems come in.
23:00:41 <coppro> except you wouldn't actually be able to get that to work
23:00:44 <elliott_> "It is important to note that as Sagan's Kardashev rating is base-10 logarithmic, a value of 0.72 means we are using approximately 0.16% of the total available planetary energy budget."
23:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> 1e16 would be ridiculously hard to control.
23:01:24 <Ilari> And one would need to inject about 110 grams of matter per second to keep it stable...
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And getting mass into the hole at all would be nigh-impossible.
23:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, not too hard if you ignore the energy output
23:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Hell, you could get that with a shovel.
23:02:25 <nooga> OpenTyrian FTW
23:02:52 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I am now imagining a guy shovelling coal into a hole.
23:03:00 <elliott_> On a sleek, shiny, lens-fare spaceship.
23:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> :)
23:03:12 <coppro> coal's far too valuable
23:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> That was my intention.
23:03:22 <coppro> how about Christians instead?
23:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Although what kind of spaceship is Type 1?
23:03:41 <elliott_> coppro: lmao
23:03:52 <elliott_> coppro: i'll have to remember that for asiekierka
23:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, you can use absolutely anything.
23:04:48 <coppro> the good news is that with that level of energe, you could afford the particle accelerator required to make it work
23:05:02 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, hmm.
23:05:06 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Could you even use EXCESS ENERGY
23:05:20 <elliott_> Thus giving a perpetual motion machine if you don't use it all! SCIENCE
23:05:44 <coppro> elliott_: no, you would need matter as fuel
23:05:52 <elliott_> coppro: SHUT UP
23:05:53 <elliott_> SCIENCE
23:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so you have 1e16W of radiation coming out, so how do you get stuff to it without it being vapourised?
23:07:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, our current energy consumption is 16TW.
23:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Which requires a 1e11 hole.
23:08:40 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: neutron stream?
23:09:00 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of mathematics, me and Vorpal just simultaneously thought that 10x10x10 = 1000.
23:09:02 <elliott_> erm
23:09:03 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of mathematics, me and Vorpal just simultaneously thought that 10x10x10 = 100.
23:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, well, I was kind of hoping you could just stick some rock in a mass driver.
23:09:27 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so you have 1e16W of radiation coming out, so how do you get stuff to it without it being vapourised?
23:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> And hope that enough of it got in to keep the generator stable.
23:09:32 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: just make a tube out of indestructium
23:09:33 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: well, neutrons shouldn't interact with the outgoing radiation at al
23:09:34 <elliott_> straight into the hole
23:09:36 <elliott_> and route it outside
23:09:41 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, momentum?
23:10:00 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: hmm?
23:10:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably not very significant if the neutrons are moving at all quickly.
23:10:12 <coppro> momenum of what?
23:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The photons? Doesn't matter
23:10:29 <coppro> oh, net momentum 0
23:10:51 <coppro> or do you mean them colliding with the neutrons?
23:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
23:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> What's M_E again?
23:11:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 6e24kg.
23:12:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so you could fix our entire energy problem with less than a hundred trillionth of the Earth's mass.
23:13:23 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: but won't the photons not collide?
23:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, I don't know, I assumed you were Mr Knows Physics.
23:13:56 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: oh, no
23:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is Mr Knows Physics here, then?
23:14:14 <coppro> actually wait, that won't work
23:14:17 <coppro> neutrans have quarks
23:14:35 <coppro> that is, I think they wouldn't work because of that
23:14:50 <nooga> i was wondering, how much time and how many jet engines working at full power would take to change earth's orbit
23:15:25 <olsner> how many depends on how far and how much time, how far depends on how many and how much time, etc
23:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, ask Sam Hughes, he's an expert on this kind of thing.
23:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> There really ought to be a name for kg/s.
23:17:52 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Kuggs.
23:19:45 <nooga> i tried to calculate that
23:20:08 <nooga> but it was too riddiculous
23:21:20 <nooga> oh no
23:21:21 <nooga> wait
23:21:36 <nooga> it was about changing the rotation direction
23:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, trivial.
23:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, I can't be bothered to work it out, but I know that I could.
23:29:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Work out the change in angular momentum.
23:29:55 <nooga> i know
23:29:58 <nooga> and i did that
23:30:38 <nooga> but it turned out that one should basically fill the entire Earth's surface with jet engines
23:30:41 <nooga> :D
23:31:32 <nooga> http://vimgolf.com/
23:31:35 <nooga> whoa
23:34:00 <coppro> haha
23:34:26 <olsner> nice!
23:36:31 <j-invariant> http://www.xamuel.com/images/madfrege.JPG
23:37:43 <coppro> hmm
23:37:46 <coppro> http://vimgolf.com/challenges/4d1a71c0b8cb34093200010b
23:37:56 <coppro> pretty sure I can totally beat 189
23:38:20 <coppro> (although does this run vimrcs? if so you could easily cheat)
23:43:05 * Sgeo wonders if there are MMORPGs whose servers are written in Erlang
23:44:47 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how many baked beans he can stick up his nose
23:46:46 <coppro> hrm
23:46:52 <coppro> vim is being weird
23:46:52 <oerjan> mm, baked beans
23:48:09 <coppro> why can't I update marks within an @ command
23:49:05 <coppro> no wait
23:49:09 <coppro> I can't do 'a in a @
23:51:41 <nooga> Sgeo: i knew two guys who wrote basic MMOG in Erlang
23:52:02 <nooga> and they had a presentation on a gamedev conference in Siedlce
23:52:34 <Sgeo> When I last looked at Erlang, what did I dislike about it?
23:53:18 <j-invariant> http://i.imgur.com/L3ILW.png troll
23:53:30 <nooga> "Marcin Gazda, Michał Ślaski - Rozproszony serwer œwiata wirtualnego jako narzędzie do analizy potrzeb serwerów MMOG."
23:54:15 <nooga> distributed server of virtual world as a tool for analysing demands of MMOG servers
23:54:29 <nooga> it was in 2005
23:54:53 <nooga> and these two guys were Erlang freaks
23:56:34 <Sgeo> What do most MMOs do?
23:58:13 <oerjan> j-invariant: i think the cheating part is that a and b will also be polynomials, not numbers
23:59:52 <nooga> brb, sleep
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