←2010-12-28 2010-12-29 2010-12-30→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:27 * Sgeo checks out digg
00:01:37 * Sgeo wtfs at how few comments there are on everything
00:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> What killed it? I've never had a straight answer to tha.
00:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> *that
00:06:00 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes you have, you just wanted infinite details.
00:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it was along the lines of "they changed the UI and had a few outages and everyone left".
00:09:48 <j-invariant> Suppose you had a box which prints out an infinite stream of bits
00:10:16 <j-invariant> the bits are not a computable function, they can be any sequence you can define.. is it possible to make an infinite energy generator with it?
00:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, XD
00:10:48 <j-invariant> (you have to put electricity in to get the bits out)
00:10:51 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: coming back?
00:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
00:10:59 <j-invariant> so you have to covre the costs of the LED or whatever
00:11:13 <elliott_> j-invariant: I doubt it
00:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, it's not that I'm bored or anything, just that it sucks down time.
00:11:23 <elliott_> j-invariant: how do you refine raw entropy :-P
00:11:26 <j-invariant> but this thing has infinite amount of information in it
00:11:54 <elliott_> j-invariant: yep, but that's not very useful
00:12:04 <elliott_> j-invariant: well anyway
00:12:10 <elliott_> j-invariant: do they /have/ to be uncomputable?
00:12:20 <j-invariant> I mean you can specify the bits to be anything
00:12:26 <elliott_> j-invariant: well
00:12:31 <j-invariant> well not "instructions for building an infinite energy machine" but...
00:12:34 <elliott_> j-invariant: you could use the LED's light
00:12:36 <elliott_> when the bit is 1
00:12:41 <elliott_> to power some light-based electricity generator
00:12:43 <elliott_> or even its heat
00:12:47 <elliott_> its very, very minimal heat
00:12:52 <elliott_> j-invariant: except no
00:12:53 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, except such a thing exists.
00:12:54 <j-invariant> no you have to cover the costs of the LED
00:12:56 <elliott_> since you have to cover the LED generator
00:12:59 <elliott_> j-invariant: ok then no
00:13:08 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he installed Braid from Steam
00:13:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Quantum much?
00:13:16 <elliott_> j-invariant: I define the sequence to be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, ...
00:13:24 <elliott_> j-invariant: zomg! the AIR is that machine!
00:13:30 <elliott_> obvs the air gives us infinite energy :}
00:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, read The Minecraft Experiment lately?
00:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> He reached the Nether.
00:13:55 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: a few days ago
00:13:59 <j-invariant> air??
00:15:01 <elliott_> j-invariant: yep, just don't plug the led into anything
00:15:03 <elliott_> infinite 0 bits
00:15:30 <j-invariant> that doesn't disprove that this might be possible
00:15:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, see mc
00:15:58 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, so how are you getting energy here?
00:16:46 <j-invariant> suppose the machine was a halting oracel for the nth brainfuck program
00:17:11 <j-invariant> I might be able to prove some difficult mathematical theorems just by waiting a long enough time
00:18:00 <j-invariant> or if this was the 1800s I could have one that prints out instructions for a flying machine
00:18:17 <j-invariant> that's a bad example actually
00:18:37 <j-invariant> since we only know post facto that the sequence exists
00:18:41 <elliott_> don't be silly, machines can't fly
00:20:40 <elliott_> IT'S TRUE
00:20:47 <elliott_> j-invariant: but um, i don't think you can use it to generate infinite energy
00:20:54 <elliott_> j-invariant: well
00:20:57 <elliott_> j-invariant: how does it generate the bits?
00:21:00 <elliott_> j-invariant: does it come with the LED built in?
00:21:00 <j-invariant> I just feel like if an alien asked me what what infinite sequecne of bits I would like.. I wouldn't be prepared
00:21:07 <elliott_> j-invariant: as in
00:21:20 <elliott_> j-invariant: is it an impenetrable black box that lights up occasionally iff you give >= N watts of energy?
00:21:21 <j-invariant> you can't open the device up
00:21:24 <elliott_> into a little hole in the back
00:21:26 <j-invariant> yes exactly
00:21:27 <elliott_> j-invariant: i.e. the LED is built in, yes?
00:21:27 <elliott_> ok
00:21:48 <elliott_> j-invariant: I'd say ... definitely no, because we can't access the information in any physical form
00:21:56 <elliott_> j-invariant: only the LED, which we're covering
00:22:11 <elliott_> j-invariant: i.e. the actual /physical/ results of generating the information are not accessible
00:22:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:22:15 <elliott_> which is what is relevant here
00:22:24 <j-invariant> hm? what's the diffence, same 1s and 0s
00:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what's the actual principle for the infinite energy?
00:22:48 <elliott_> j-invariant: well because the point is that heat etc.
00:22:52 <elliott_> i dunno :D
00:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Grumblegrumblemyideawasbetter
00:24:44 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ?
00:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> For energy!
00:24:56 <elliott_> j-invariant: can I cheat?
00:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a man. Shovelling coal. Into a black hole.
00:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT
00:25:21 <j-invariant> you can cheat if it's clever
00:25:27 <elliott_> j-invariant: I request the sequence of bits that represent ASCII instructions in easily-comprehended-by-a-modern-physicist English that describes all steps necessary to build an infinite energy generator given our current materials and understanding
00:25:39 <elliott_> j-invariant: presumably, the black box itself uses some kind of infinite energy source to do it
00:25:48 <elliott_> so if it was constructed specially by aliens, they can tell us how to make us one that gives electricity!
00:25:55 <elliott_> or heat or whatever
00:25:58 <j-invariant> elliott_: that only works if such a machine exists -- current evidence suggests it doesn't
00:26:19 <elliott_> j-invariant: current evidence suggests this infinitely-outputting box doesn't exist either!
00:26:39 <elliott_> j-invariant: & if they can't give such a sequence, they're frauds, as their magic box must use an infinite energy generator
00:26:47 <elliott_> (or physics is really, *really* weird)
00:27:57 <elliott_> j-invariant: this is totally cheating though :)
00:30:25 <j-invariant> hehe
00:30:31 <j-invariant> I think it's the best approach so far
00:35:43 <Sgeo> iirc, the last time I got angry with Opera was because it failed to save my settings properly
00:35:58 <Sgeo> But i remember that as a last straw. What else was wrong with it?
00:36:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have a private blog so I rememer things like this
00:36:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: no minecart tunnel yet.
00:36:25 <elliott_> until it's all done
00:36:29 <elliott_> Sgeo: Or just use a text file.
00:37:12 <elliott_> 10.10.31:16:42:28 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have a record of my Opera usage
00:37:12 <elliott_> 10.10.31:16:42:42 <Sgeo> So if I'm ever tempted to try Opera again, say in a few years...
00:37:59 <Sgeo> ty
00:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, idea to confuse people: add "no pun intended" where there is no pun. It is correct but confusing
00:38:24 <elliott_> WTF.
00:38:26 <elliott_> Spawn reverted too.
00:38:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, what
00:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, that's weird
00:38:45 <elliott_> yeah to pre-second-explosion
00:38:50 <Vorpal> ineiros, are you behind this?
00:38:55 <elliott_> ineiros said he'd help now where is he >:|
00:39:06 <Vorpal> and also, I hope my home doesn't revert again
00:39:18 <Vorpal> because I dumped more pumpkins and fixed the lava there
00:39:35 <elliott_> 10.10.29:19:06:37 <Sgeo> What an awesome security feature, Opera
00:39:35 <elliott_> 10.10.29:19:06:42 * Sgeo gives Opera the middle finger
00:39:37 <elliott_> 10.10.25:22:05:18 <Sgeo> Opera complains about an illegal port number
00:39:40 <elliott_> 10.10.25:22:03:32 * Sgeo angers at Opera
00:39:48 <elliott_> 10.10.25:12:51:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-does-not-work-on-opera.png
00:39:53 <elliott_> 10.10.24:14:24:52 <Sgeo> Opera seems to be having some problems again
00:39:55 <elliott_> 10.10.23:18:55:30 <Sgeo> Dear Opera, quit feasdf
00:39:58 <elliott_> 10.10.22:18:00:05 <Sgeo> Why does Opera force me to click the flash before interacting?
00:40:02 <elliott_> 10.10.22:11:33:12 <Sgeo> Dear websites/Opera: Stop making it so that Opera keeps thinking that something changed in your tab
00:40:02 <elliott_> 10.10.22:15:44:34 <Sgeo> Opera fails to mark files as originating from the Internet
00:40:11 <Vorpal> <elliott_> 10.10.22:18:00:05 <Sgeo> Why does Opera force me to click the flash before interacting? <-- good idea
00:40:18 <Vorpal> <elliott_> 10.10.22:15:44:34 <Sgeo> Opera fails to mark files as originating from the Internet <--- ???
00:40:26 <elliott_> Vorpal: good idea that IE invented :)
00:40:43 <Vorpal> <elliott_> 10.10.25:12:51:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-does-not-work-on-opera.png <-- this... is this hard mode?
00:40:45 <Vorpal> or
00:40:48 <Vorpal> impossible mode?
00:41:10 <Vorpal> also, 544 images?
00:41:15 <Sgeo> Maybe Opera 11 fixed all that </overly-optimistic>
00:41:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why not use another browser, such as firefox. Firefox may be bad, but it works
00:42:21 <elliott_> Vorpal: because Sgeo hates chrome now for no clear reason
00:42:50 <Gregor> Vorpal: It was creating its enemy images, then counting them, then creating more and recounting them, then creating more etc etc.
00:43:24 <elliott_> Gregor: Played websplat lately? :P
00:43:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, awesome
00:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, issues with it?
00:43:44 <Gregor> elliott_: I was just thinking about it; implementing zalgo went all fail :P
00:43:50 <elliott_> Gregor: wat
00:43:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, zalgo?
00:44:04 <elliott_> I know what zalgo is
00:44:06 <elliott_> but the sentence does not parse
00:44:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: Zalgo is to invoke the hive-mind representing chaos.
00:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, if zalgo is a generic noun then it makes sense
00:45:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, so how did you try to implement that?
00:45:31 <elliott_> Ṫ͈̭̖ͅo̤̊̿͋̂́ͅ ̨̳̭͚̹̘̬̮̙ͥ̅̈́̿̍͌̌i̛̐̽̿ͪ҉̢̭͔̼̘̮ͅṅ̢͖̭̤͕̮̹̪ͧ̐̿ͦ͞v̷̬̙̻̳̤͔͙̓ͨͣ́̎o̦͔͐̇̂͋͊͂ͨͫ̚k̫̈͞ͅeͯͮ̌̂̓͑ͬ҉̳͍̖̠̰̖̭͎ ̮̝̪̲̦͈͎̗̿͐̄̌ͨͤ̉ͬͩ́t͈͐ͭ̑h̙͎̙̲͉̬͎͖̟́͗̓̓e̖̘͖̳̫̟̔ͬ̿ͬ͠ ̸̻̳͖̋͗̄̿̂̚ḩ̜̀̾̓͜i̼̘͗́̽ͭͩv̜̆̂̾̋́͋ͥ̾é̷̺͎ͬ̀̑ͭ̿̈̂͢͝-͚͍̙͉ͫ̆͛̆ͮ͗͘͝͡m̯̠̩̠͍̭͓̝ͭͫ̔̆iͧ̏
00:45:31 <elliott_> ̸̴̞͔̝͍̭̂̑ͦ̑ͫ͜n̷͖̥̺ͮ̋̎̈́d̷͓̟̩̄ͨ ̽̔̕͜͏̰̤̼̠̤͖̠r̴̹̔̂͐͌ͦͣȅ̷̛̳̞̩̘ͫͤ͐̋ͨ͛p͎͚̃̒̄͌̈̕r̶̻̮͉͓̩̳̲̖ͤ̀ͨͧͪ̒̈́̈͡e͌̓̅ͥ͏̼̘̩͈͟s̸͎̮̭̘̥̫̒͂̉͗̎̕e̵̵̛̘̺͑ͬn̯̠̖͋͂̎̽͘ẗ̰͖͔̠͚̲̫́ͫ͐ͩ̔̈̂ͤͩ͟ͅi̗͇̦͈̙̮͆ͥń̨̛̰̘̘̮͓̙̫ͭ̍ͫ͛̀g̸̪̗̩͕̙̜̩͊ͮ͌̇͠ ͧ͂ͫ̆̔ͧ̽͏̮̭̫̣͚͇c̴̛̝̪͙̼̦̪͛͋ͬh̵̦͍̼̞͚͖͚ͧ̑̀ȃ̓͌̔
00:45:31 <elliott_> ̵͍̥̣̩͉͉̤̫̔̓̀͠o̙̼̅́ͫͩͩ̇́s̪̟͚̲̋͋̿̄͆̉̏ͬ̓́ͅ.̲͙͈̖̏̂ͦ́
00:45:33 <elliott_> ̴͎̝̩̮̤̲͈ͣ͛ͅĮ͉̖̱̭ͫ̎̈̒̒̿ͪ́n̞̰͔̱͖̯̜ͩ̇ͯͯ̈̚͘͠v̜̭̏ͩ̍̔͛ͣ͂͂͢͢ǒ̷ͭ̄̀̊ͧ̒̽҉̠̻̤̹k̡̰͓̰̱͂ͭ͋̔́ͅi̯̤̒͊͌ͥͦͬ͐n̤̤͐̿̏̌̇̆̈́͆́g̨̙̱̗̤̙̾̏̍̈ͧ͡ ̵̵̟̲̙̭͙ͩ̄̽̇t̺̫̔ͭ͟͞h̡̭̗̻̠̫̥̩͍ͮͧ̓̈̎̊̊ͮ̀͜e̴̝͙͉̘̙̍́̂̐ͥ̃ ̨͉͇̭̯̝̖̰̰͂̑ͫ͊͗͘ͅf͓̓͗̓ͧ̐ẹ̠͔̔ͬ͒ͧ͋ͤ̉͋e̹̫̥͊ͦͫ̍̌͝l̢͙̺̙̺̩ͥͭ̇̐ͫͧͧ͂͢ȋ̈͋̉͛
00:45:38 <elliott_> ̧̟͉̩̘̼̙́̄ͧ̚͢ǹ̢͓̞̮̗͖̝̮͍ͭ͜g̙̻͖̠̎̚͜͟ ̢͎̪̲̬ͯ̊ͬͪ͒ͨ̑͜͡ͅo̗̙͋̊̂͌̄̋͌͝f̠͎͕̯͗̒ͯͯͪ͊̊ ̨̼̩̪̯̜̲̖͖͑ͤc̸̻̪̖̱ͭ͐ͨͫ̋h̴͈̹̦̼͙͇̼͖̣̄͗͡͡a̤̱̬͉̼͇̲̜ͮ́̏͋͊ơ͙̝̮̜̈́̐ͪ̿͗̔ͮs̖͎̟͊ͧ̇̈ͅ.̘ͬͧ̐ͣ́͠
00:45:42 <elliott_> ̨̞̬̳̖̘͎ͮ̈̍ͫͬ̏̚Ẃ̛̻̗̒̓̉̉ͣȉ̺̬͎͖̭͔̝͆ͤͤ͑͝t̨͈̯̬̠̍̍̊̐h̛̯̬̬͗̃͗ͭ͐ ̨͇̹̬͓̗ͪ͑͛͗ͩ͑̒̚͠ǫ̶̶̫̱̼̮̦̪̟̔͐̇u̱͓̹̞̦̾t̸̮̘̭͌͗̐͛͛ͨ͂́͂ͅ ̊ͭ҉̸͕̟͖͉̙̣̩̲̹ǫ̸̬͕͖̰̍̑ͦ̾͐̐ͫ͒͘r̴͎ͬ̒ͧ̇ͪ͊̂̅͜d̯̙̙͍̦̼̣̭ͨ͊̀͟e̶͔̟̦͍͌ͤͧ̿̐̋̀ͮ͞ṛ̳͓̈ͦ͊ͨ̽ͩ̕.̨̲͖̳͔͉͇̯́̉ͨ̋͡
00:45:47 <elliott_> ̃̍͏͏͓̙̖̱T̢̩̘̭̞̟͍̣̦̦́͊ͬh̨͓͈̻̗͙̱̘͛ͮͮ̑̍ͣẹ͙̰͉̲̘̹ͦͫ͂ͥ͞ ̶̨̬͉ͮ̑͐̃̀̂̈́̕N̫̲ͦ̒ͧ̊ͤ̈̉̕͜ͅe̷̲̊̾̐͐̅̕z̜͔̮̯̬̺̣̉̓͌̒͑͝pͨ̽͏͇̥̥̱͟e̸̖̤͊͗ͮ͝r̦̣͇̦̱̹ͨ͋͜d̞̺̘̪͕̯͎̹ͨ̓̄ͫͯͥ͊̂͡ͅi̢̖̍̊ͤͮ͑̈a̶̹ͫ̈̿́n̪̺̯̣̝ͮͬ̋ͨ ̡̰̍̉ͤ̊ͩ͡ẖ̴͚̼̯̖̈́ͤ̔͋ͬ̐̈͑́͠i͙͔̤̮̳̗̤̥ͯ̐̒̾̍ͯ̓̍̚v̛͉͎̫͆ę̤̳̮͈̟̪̰̰̿̆ͬ-̈́̈
00:45:52 <elliott_> ̝̠̞͢m̶̷̯͎͑̚i̴̅͏̡̜̙̘̘n͗̌͗̅̅͛ͯ͋̃҉̸̡͉̜̼d̹͈̗̀ͦ̿ͣ͆̒ͣͨ͜͝ ̡̡̪̙̹̲͚͔̗͈̈̓́ŏ̶̥̣̬̘̯̟̼̺͉̅͗f̡̟͎̪̹ͬ̐͒͠ ̛̦͈̹̫͚͖̜ͯ̇͂͜c̴̥̬͚̣̹ͩ͌̔̅̚̕h̎̆͑͑̈͡͏͉̺̠̻̳͓̱͎a͂̄̊͋͐̍͊͗̕͡҉͍̪̣̹͚͚͇o̷̶͖͙͇̣͇̥͖̎͌͑͛͋̽ͦͤś̟̪ͦ͝.̯͎͈̞͗̄͆͗̾̏̈͑ͅ ̢̜̟̣ͯͯ̃͂̌ͩ͋Z̬̘͎͛̍ͣ͛ͣa̟͈̙͕͗ͦͨͪ͑̆l̛̘̤̤̼͍̏̑̉̀ğ́ͬ̅̆ͧ
00:45:57 <elliott_> ̪̫̖̌̊̀o̷̻̤̰̼͉̞͖͖ͩ̂͊ͩ̽̓ͭ̚̚.̧̹̪̉́͆̽͌̈́̒̂ ̷̵̭̲̳̲̝̱̞ͩͫ͗͊ͪ͂
00:45:59 <elliott_> ̢̭̤̓̐ͯH̵̲̮̬̹̣͓̮ͩ̉ͦ͌̍ͦ̑̌̀̚̕e̼̼͓̞͌̿ͣ̀ͩ ̧͔̭̭̙̩̥͑̍̔̃͗ͮ̉ͪ͟w̶̓ͮ҉̳͕͇̲͔͓h̥̱͖̘͔͕̔̄̊̉̆͊ͤo͊͗҉̫̹̲̰͉̀ ̶̼̼͕̙̙̫̝͚̩͐͒̓ͤ́͒̂́Ŵ̤̄̎ͫ̐̆̑͞a̳̣̞̣̟͚̯͙̪ͣ͐͠i̡̿̈̽̍͗̐́ͭ͏̞́ť̡̗͕̼̰͙ͣ̽̈́ͧ́̑ś̩͖͔͉̘̥̋͂̏̑͐ͯ̆͜ ̵͂̋ͮͣ̊͡͏̘͇͔͕̞B̢͚̼̞̔̉̒̓ͧͯ͌ͯ͘̕e̊̓̓ͬ͂ͦ͒̈҉̶͉̣̠̳̦̖̘ḣ͉̭̖ͣ̈ͪͅi͗̋ͩ̚͏͞
00:46:02 <Vorpal> great. It *didn't* mess up my terminal
00:46:04 <elliott_> ͔́ņ̹̱͍ͥ̇d̜̻̹̹̿̈́̉̽͂ͩ̃ ̵͓͍͎͓̳̝ͬ̅͂̄́T̴̢͉͔̝̫͎̺̪̺ͧ̈́̋̄̎ͪͅḩ͖̝͕̰̳ͭ̾͐͞ͅe̯͙ͨ̋ͥ̎̆ͩ ̸̡̘̦̂̆̀̔̇́̕Ẁ̮͉͈̿ͤá̸̡̘͚̏͛ͥ̓͐̾̌ͪ͝ͅl̛͇̼̼ͯ̈͡ͅḻ̤̰̈ͫ̋ͩ.̲̙͔̫͓ͩ͋̎ͦ̈́ͥ̆̆̚͞
00:46:05 <Vorpal> and it won't
00:46:08 <elliott_> ̢̠͔̳̆̽͛̾͘Z̦̺̺͊ͥ̒̒̏ͫ͜
00:46:10 <elliott_> ...wow, XChat failed at that
00:46:12 <elliott_> T̷̞̭̺̩͚̹̙̜͓̞ͭͧ̉ͩ̀ͤͥ̂͂ͨͫ̈ͨ̎̀͆ͨ̊̕o̶͉͔̮̺͙̳͈̰̙̞̝̖̜͕̗͇̣̭ͬ̐̀̈̽̽ͯ̆̔̇̉̕͡͝͝ ̵͎̜̩̹̻̲̜̪̉ͧ̔̓͂̀̈́ͣͤ͗̉͞i̴̢͇̻͍̘̦̜̦̩̜͓͎̗̠͊̉̈́̌͜ṋ͇͕͔̰̱̘̝̼͔͎̼͖͓͋ͬͪ̊́̀v̴̨͈̟͓̬̯̙͍̩̟̙̞̰͛̈́́̓͛͜͢ȍ͗͒͐ͥ̆͏̡͚͖̳̪̼͎͕k̡̛̖̥̭̬͚͙̟̫̰͔̦͖̲͕͖̟̥͈̘ͣ̈̄ͯ̌̌̓̏̈͆̇ͬͯ͊ͣ̋́̕eͭ̈́̀ͥ͂̏̽̈́̏̓̍̋ͤͮ̽̈́͌͐҉̷̛̣̭
00:46:17 <elliott_> ̮̳̖ ̶̧̼͕̲̤̰͙̠̮͍̦̖̟̺̬̙̳͍̜̣̂̓͒̊ͮ̈́̉̃͑̽͡t̷̿ͧͦͨ҉̖̹̣͈̖̲̗͍͈̤ͅh̢ͮͭ͆ͯ̅̚҉̥̮̮̮͓̥̮͍e̷̡͍̼̲̞̣̘͓̻̠̻͖̩̤̹͔͒̊ͯ͘͟ͅ ̨̝̼͓̼̥̜̘͈̖̏̒́ͨ̑ͫ̌ͫ̿̐ͫ͊́́̒̉́͋̀͞ḩ̵̴̩̞̗͉̤̔̊̾iͭ͌͗ͮͥͤ̾ͭͪ͑ͮͣͨ̑̌̊ͫ͠҉̴҉͏̙̫̹̘͕v̦̠̰̝̱̱̄ͭ̀ͨ͋ͦ̃̂ͬ̊̈̂ͧͩ͐͌̚̕e̸̢̟̫̰͕̲̫ͩ͒ͬͨͫ̾͋̑̐͆̒ͬͮ̚̕-̗͉̱̳̣̥̣̏ͧͣ̿̕m̓̅̄̚
00:46:22 <elliott_> ̿͐̔ͭͨ̿̓̉ͬ̚͏̷̸̣̭͉̦i̧̩͚̜̜͔̖̞̥̭̇ͪͣ̆ͬͫ̆̐̓̐͢͢n̔ͨ̇͐ͦ̃̉҉̷̠͎̳̝͍̲͚̙̟̬̤̟͉ͅd̐̉̄̾̀́͑ͮ͗̃͛̏ͩ͑̀̆̚҉͏͏̙̺͉͈͈̗͍̪̩̮͚̝̣͙͢͞ͅ ̸̮͓̰̱͎͇̙͔̖̙͓͔͇̙̾͆̊̅̍̄ͮ̿̅̃̃̚͜r̷̡͔̩͚̥̗ͩͮ̄ͨ̕ẽ͌͐͂ͮ̀͂̍ͮ̓́̎̈̊̒͗ͯ͏̴̫̰̙͇̳̙̫͍͈͈̦̙͖͘p̢ͯ̒̋̓ͩ̃ͥ̓̀ͯ̾͛̅ͬͨ̀҉̢̹̝̟̥̬͈̩̩͚͖̟ṛͧ͆̾̽̏ͫͣ͑̋ͤ͐͛ͫ̉̔̓͛̚͟͜
00:46:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, did it?
00:46:27 <elliott_> ̳̞̗̯̫̟̗̘̣̲̫͚̝ͅe̜͚͚̞̝͎͖̗̺͐ͫ͛̔ͯͧ̐͒͆̊̊ͫ̀͆̋̿ͧ́ͪ̀̕͜͜͞ş̲̦͉̪͔̪ͭ͛ͬ́̈́ͦ̐ͯ̍ͯͫͭ̋̕e͖̟̩̠͐ͫ͒̀̀̚n̽͒͊̆̀͏̰̩̗̜̫̖͚͉̣̤̯͉̻t̡͍͈̦͓͔̟̱̳̰̹̺͈̖̪̪͐ͮͣ̊͗̾̉ͣ͛ͧ̚ỉ͖̗̹̲̩̤̖̗̗̦̹̟̳͎̯͈͒̑̈́ͤ́̕n̴̷̘̞͓͚͔̼̳̣̘͋̃̎̋͐̾ͅͅg̢̧̢̨͖̣̱̙̖̫͔͕͐̉̑͐͆̔̃͊ͩ̋ͮ̈̐̏̋̀͊ͪ ̵̼͎̼̬͚̜͇̔̈͂͊ͦ̿̃́͠͡͡ͅcͬͦ̿͊ͥͬ
00:46:33 <elliott_> ̸̨̰̩̪͎͍̥̫͔̻͖͍̯͔̤̖̋́͝h̨̙̬͓͈̱͉͖͈̖̫͍̫͕̱̟̼̳̥͌̓͒ͬ̈́̂̇́͛̎͂̈̓͠͞å̴̢̭̘͕̖͔̳̪̠͑̃̒ͭͤ̇̀͝o̴̺̩̰͚͎͚̺͓̭̘͕̠̩̫͍̺ͨͯ̒ͩ̈͂̀͘͜s̈́͒̓͛̎͌ͨ҉̳͎̩̙̣̗̣͍͓̰̟͎̟̖͔.̶̨̧̣̺͙͓̂͑ͬ̏͂ͩͧͪͭ̋ͦͤ͞͡
00:46:34 <Vorpal> how did it fail?
00:46:36 <elliott_> ̷̥̖̙͓̊̂̏̈ͭ̌ͩͯ̔͛̿ͬ͟͠I̶̷͓̥͔̗̰̼̬̽̽̆̓̐ͭͤ̋̅̍ͥ̒͒̑ͬ͠ͅn̵̶̘̠̳̠͕̥͈̳͈͓̈́͆ͬ̂ͥ̄ͮͨ̆ͫ̎ͥ̎v̛͍̹̲̳̗̼͚̮̹͕̖̺̘̗̲̭̊̀̽͒ͩ͋̓͌͌̿̕ͅö̡̆ͭͭ͊̓̌̈́̿̄̑ͧͦ̎̐͑͑͏̨͙̰̞̭̠̰̹̼̣͍̭k̲̲̪̖̫̗̠͇̼̲̗̣̣̩̟̦ͭ̆̽̈́͐͒ͮ͐̉͑̅̿̎͝ͅi̡̲̦͕͈̗͙̞̜̦̯̽ͯͣ͒͝ñ̵̴̨͇̳̦̦̻̱͚ͫ͛̓̔͂ͯ̍͢͟g̷̴̸̘̱̠̼̫̙̘͕̳̝̥͖̰ͩ̓̿̄ͬ̚͜͠ ͧͨ
00:46:41 <elliott_> ̨̗͇̱̹̦̺̐͆ͥͭ́͢͝͠t̴̺̝̩̹̺̠͙̺̘̱̤̻͖͓̐͐̈́ͭ͟͠h̲̼̮̰̰̤̞̙̅̒ͯ̃ͤ̽̓́̊̎ͬ͒̇̄ͨ͂͘̕e̸͓̥̯͈̬̘̼̯͕̱̠̖ͪ̔̽͐̈̉͊̿͊̓́̾͛̿͆̇̓͑͟͞͡ ̸̫̥̯̺̺̫̬͓͇̯̼̩͗̓ͣ̉̐̀ͭ̐ͣ̾ͭͪ͆͆́̑̀͠f̸̢̹͈̯̘̖͑̐̈́̏ͤ̊͛͞͡ͅë̶̛̛͙̦̱̻̣͔̘͙̠̣̖̯͇̻͈̓ͩ̔ͭͣ͗̿͒ͯ̎̂̈́̀͠ė̷̠͔̗̜̮̥͖͈̮ͥ̀̉ͪͨͬͩͩ͊͂̈ͭ̐͊ͯ͘͘l̇ͭ̏͋͒͐͑̈́ͭͥ̎̅ͮ̚͟҉̢͠
00:46:46 <elliott_> ͖̪̪͇̙͕̣̲̟̻̹̬͕̹̜̱̝͖ĭ̢̡͔͚̼̞͙̖̮̙̯͕̺̪͚̪͔̘̼͓̖̾̉̓ͬ̔ͤ̊̊͒̐̊ͪ̍̓̕͘͟ñ̻̬͓̯̙̪̥̭̞͇͉̯̹̬̘̱͓̏̌ͦ̊͒̓ͦ̈́͜͡g̶̼̥̗̻͓̟̩͚̱̺̗̼̰̈̓̒ͬͯ́́͠ ̧̛̦̺̫͔̥̲͇̪̈͛̌̑ͫ͆ͨͮ͛̆̒̚̚ȍ̧̖̺͎̤̘͈͎̫̱̩̆̽͑ͦͤ͌͌͡͡f̛̜̤̹̙̱̟̩̞̻̱ͣ͂̓̌͗̋ͬ̽ͤ̅̔̅͠ ̶̸̬̝̩̜̱̥̆ͤ͛ͧ̈̔ͩ̕͢͡c̷̵̢̯͉̦͚̘̳̹̘̭͙̦̈̃̊͐͋ͧ̉̾ͩ͊͆͆ͭͤͫ̀
00:46:51 <elliott_> ̲̖̰͇̲̰̣̳hͥ̓̈̓ͭ̊͛̒̕͏͕̲̘̥̹̲̥̩̹̗͇̼ͅͅaͩ̍̈́̔͐ͥ̋͐̔̾ͩ͗ͮͣͫ̚̚͏̧̩̭̫͉̞͉̗́̕͝ő͎͉̤̈̅̓̆͐ͨ̎͗̽̉͋ͬͪͩ̂͡͝͞ͅs̮̣̮̤̺̘̣͍̱̤͕̠͓̼̗̦͌̔ͣͦͣ̓̊̑̑̏̋̆̿̀̕͜ͅ.̸̶̡̬̖̠̖̦͎̲͖͈͓̲̦͓̱̮͉̥̂̒ͦͩ͟
00:46:55 <elliott_> ̡͙̳͙͍͓̞͚͖̤̘̯̭̮̹̥͉̊̐̏ͭ̐ͨͯ̿͘͡ͅW̵̨̡̯̮̜̰̩͎͇̠̮̖͚̗̯̬̞̦͓̒ͦ̑̈͑͗̑ͥͩͫͪͬ̋ͦ̂̔̀̚i̅͊ͣͫ̒̊̾́͊ͪ͐ͩ̌͒ͦ͂͏̰͔̞̮͉̹͔̲͖͉̩͎̤̟̳̫ͅt͆̓͐ͫͧ́̉̈́ͪ̋ͣ̄͑ͮ͗͒̓͏̧̛̪͇̳͟͡ͅ
00:46:59 <elliott_> ...
00:47:01 <elliott_> it is fail :(
00:47:03 <elliott_> stupid IRC length limit :P
00:47:05 <elliott_> Also XChat cutting off limit
00:47:26 <calamari> elliott_: you seem to be spitting out line noise
00:47:37 <elliott_> calamari: that's just the zalgo.
00:47:48 <Vorpal> calamari, actually biased noise
00:47:53 <Vorpal> to unicode combining chars
00:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, zalgo is part of zlib right?
00:49:19 <Vorpal> the z algorithm obviously
00:49:23 <calamari> ah.. you're right I can read it every few chars there's a real letter
00:50:59 <calamari> Gregor: when you going to make websplat work on the wii... so I can have my computer back when my kids come over?
00:51:41 <Vorpal> calamari, it seems to read as a message
00:51:43 <Gregor> calamari: When you buy me a Wii!
00:51:46 <Vorpal> in lots of unicode combining
00:52:03 <calamari> Gregor: is there some kind of debug mode?
00:52:20 <calamari> to give you environment information or such
00:52:44 <calamari> I assume it's failing due to the js engine sucking
00:52:46 <Vorpal> calamari, doesn't your browser have a js console?
00:53:05 <calamari> not that I could find
00:53:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: We're talking about the Wii.
00:53:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, make it work in opera mini (note: I doubt this)
00:53:27 <elliott_> Gregor: Buy me a Wi
00:53:28 <elliott_> i
00:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, verily
00:54:06 <calamari> I guess I could go through the source and try to figure it out instead of complaining like a loser
00:54:41 <Vorpal> how is wii wrt. homebrew?
00:54:45 <Vorpal> specifically, linux
00:55:14 <calamari> there's linux and a bunch of homebrew
00:55:34 <Vorpal> ah
00:55:34 <calamari> the media player is nice, well as nice as SD resolution will allow
00:55:52 <Vorpal> calamari, SD?
00:55:55 <calamari> 480p
00:56:18 <Vorpal> calamari, right... I prefer my 24" computer TFT for all purposes
00:56:31 <Vorpal> (except for carrying, then I prefer a smaller 15" laptop)
00:56:59 <elliott_> -_-
00:57:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes, I have a TV from the 80s
00:57:15 <elliott_> That's sort of your problem
00:57:21 <Vorpal> it lacks scart and so on
00:57:26 <calamari> elliott_: calm yourself.. ssh server ;)
00:57:37 <elliott_> calamari: I was mocking Vorpal, not agreeing with him.
00:57:41 <calamari> ah ok
00:58:48 <Vorpal> it /is/ useless compared to a full PC. Except for getting money from buyers
00:59:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: You realise it's meant for playing games, yes?
00:59:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes, so why not an advanced PC for it?
00:59:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, see bsmntbombdood's computer for example
00:59:40 <bsmntbombdood> ?
00:59:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: I am punching you over the internet, and one day, you will be able to experience it.
00:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because, and I know you have trouble with this, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT YOU.
00:59:49 <elliott_> Vorpal: Because technology is worthless, today is not that day.
00:59:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: But one day, you will feel the punches.
00:59:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't really answer it
01:00:13 <elliott_> btw cost of bsmntbombdood's machine: $1600
01:00:16 <elliott_> cost of Wii: like 3 cents?
01:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, cost of wii games = high, very high
01:00:33 <calamari> I got the Wii due to the games available for it
01:00:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this makes no sense
01:00:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: Cost of PC games = high, very high
01:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, £40 for new releases, drops off later?
01:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes true
01:00:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, more than minecraft
01:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what.
01:01:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, really?
01:01:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, this sounds like a strange concept
01:01:29 <Sgeo> I think most of the games I want to play are PC games
01:01:32 <elliott_> I am not punching you any more; I am using a knife, and it is stabbing you.
01:01:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, quite
01:01:36 <calamari> also, hack your wii, download games for bittorrent.. games = $0
01:01:42 <calamari> *from
01:01:44 <Vorpal> calamari, hah
01:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, do please indicate a modern game that's less than £40.
01:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> A new one.
01:01:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: BTW, making stupid jokes doesn't distract anyone from the fact that you've lost the argument.
01:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, just released.
01:01:57 <calamari> Vorpal: used that to try a couple games before I bought them
01:02:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, minecraft.
01:02:04 <elliott_> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, minecraft.
01:02:04 <elliott_> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, minecraft.
01:02:05 <elliott_> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, minecraft.
01:02:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: FUCK OFF >_<
01:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OTHER GAMES.
01:02:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you didn't say
01:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> FROM A MAJOR GAMES STUDIO
01:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but then I don't know. I don't follow that market
01:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ...ugh.
01:02:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: And yet you believe yourself to be qualified to speak about these subjects.
01:02:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes I believe they are too expensive
01:02:42 <Vorpal> they are
01:02:42 <elliott_> Presumably because you have successfully lodged your head firmly up somewhere it's not meant to go.
01:02:53 <calamari> mental note: never mention the wii in this channel again
01:02:53 <elliott_> We are talking about *consoles*.
01:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You are just so utterly, utterly thoughtless. In the literal sense that you put no thought whatsoever into what you say.
01:03:04 <elliott_> BTW: The Wii would still have to be sold if computers existed. As an IR receiver.
01:03:05 <elliott_> And a controller.
01:03:13 <elliott_> Those would be a big part of the cost of the Wii itself.
01:03:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, if games were priced like minecraft you would get much less pirating
01:03:19 <elliott_> calamari: It's okay, it's just that Vorpal is a moron.
01:03:19 <coppro> wait computers don't exist
01:03:24 <elliott_> We yell at him no matter what.
01:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Jesus, you just have no idea.
01:03:26 <Vorpal> sure you still get some
01:03:43 <coppro> vorpal is right on one level
01:03:47 <coppro> and wrong on so many ohters
01:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Minecraft is not Half-life 2.
01:03:57 <calamari> oh I agree.. the wii hardware is total crap
01:04:05 <elliott_> Q.E.D.
01:04:09 <calamari> I didn't get it for that tho..
01:04:47 <calamari> although I have to admit being able to put linux on it did make it appealing lol
01:04:53 <Sgeo> calamari, do you have WoG on Wii?
01:05:19 * Phantom_Hoover → AWAY FROM VORPAL'S IDIOCY
01:05:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, quite. I'm an moron for helping with the cube
01:06:05 <Vorpal> I have no idea why I did in the first place
01:06:11 <calamari> Sgeo: this? no http://www.amazon.com/Mario-Sonic-Olympic-Winter-Nintendo-Wii/dp/B001SIFNXW
01:06:22 <Sgeo> calamari, I meant World of Goo
01:06:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: Everything is going to end up in you saying "WAAH CUBE" isn't it.
01:06:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, I did not say that
01:06:49 <Sgeo> Vorpal, does building stuff like that in MC require special intellect?
01:07:12 <elliott_> Sgeo: No.
01:07:18 <Sgeo> Indeed.
01:07:19 <elliott_> The bits Vorpal is helping with are essentially drudge work.
01:07:19 <Vorpal> very droll
01:07:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, and getting coords, and so on. A lot of stuff you couldn't have done without getting lost
01:07:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, when was the last time I was called a complete idiot?
01:08:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: I could have found the lake myself, it would have just taken longer.
01:08:55 <Vorpal> so. you think I'm a complete idiot for thinking gaming consoles are stupid and pointless... right
01:09:03 <Vorpal> shows you have strong feelings about them
01:09:06 <elliott_> What.
01:09:12 <elliott_> I don't even own any consoles, the last I bought was the GameCube.
01:09:12 <calamari> Sgeo: hadn't heard of it.. I assume you like WoG?
01:09:18 <elliott_> I just think that your reasons are really, really, really stupid.
01:09:21 <elliott_> Which they are.
01:09:23 <Sgeo> Vorpal, maybe they're pointless for you. Other people like Wii games
01:11:03 <Vorpal> PS3 was nice
01:11:06 <calamari> there's a Wii emulator.. how fast does it run on your fancy pc?
01:11:08 <Vorpal> when you could run linux on it
01:11:22 <Vorpal> calamari, I wish I had a fancy PC. never invested in one
01:11:40 <Vorpal> well wish for this convo
01:11:43 * Sgeo wants a fancy PC
01:11:45 <Vorpal> I do have the money
01:11:54 <Vorpal> I just don't have the need
01:12:03 <Sgeo> Vorpal, give me the money? ;)
01:12:06 <Vorpal> so I spend it on other stuff
01:12:11 <calamari> oh my bad, bsmntbombdood's pc
01:12:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not going to happen :P
01:12:30 <Vorpal> calamari, well he could do it. my current computers can't, but I could afford one that could
01:12:38 <elliott_> calamari: bsmntbombdood's is i7/SSD/12 GiB, so it should work fairly well :-P
01:12:42 <elliott_> but it's a lot cheaper to buy a wii.
01:12:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: also, unless you get the IR receiver and the wiimote it's... beyond pointless.
01:12:57 <elliott_> and that's like 60% of the cost of a Wii right there.
01:13:29 <Vorpal> so the games shouldn't have been made for that platform really. Of course emulation is going to be slow
01:13:50 <Sgeo> Wait... games shouldn't have been made for the Wii?
01:14:02 <Sgeo> Because emulating the Wii system on PC is annoying?
01:14:07 <Sgeo> Or am I misreading Vorpal
01:14:09 <coppro> nope
01:14:11 <Vorpal> you are misreading me
01:14:16 <calamari> I'm glad they weren't made for pc because then I'd have to boot winblows to play them
01:14:20 <coppro> +1
01:14:28 <Vorpal> calamari, that is a fair point
01:14:33 <elliott_> <Vorpal> you are misreading me
01:14:36 <elliott_> lol.
01:14:55 <elliott_> Vorpal: there's no real point to keep talking about this because (1) you've enumerated all of your "points", several times and (2) nobody agrees with them.
01:15:28 <Sgeo> Vorpal said I was misreading him
01:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, while /you/ have not given any real substantial reasons
01:15:32 <Sgeo> Maybe he should clarify
01:15:36 <Vorpal> only good reason I seen so far is that calamari made
01:16:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah, except, i don't /feel/ like giving any reasons since you're the one spouting bullshit
01:16:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, of course emulation will be slower than native. For any platform, A Wii emulating a PC to play a PC game would be slow as well
01:16:12 <elliott_> I've /rebutted/ all your stupid reasons and that's enough.
01:16:14 <calamari> that's not really a good reason... lol
01:16:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so the "speed for emulating" question is a bit nonsense
01:16:51 <elliott_> i suggest we stop feeding him
01:17:16 <Vorpal> I'm not trolling
01:17:32 <Sgeo> No, elliott wants you to die
01:17:40 <Vorpal> right
01:17:41 <elliott_> never said you were trolling.
01:17:44 <elliott_> but i do think we should stop feeding you
01:17:47 <calamari> elliott has wanted me to die in the past, I'm sure
01:17:59 <Vorpal> calamari, he wants everyone to die at some point
01:18:05 <Vorpal> well everyone except himself
01:18:16 <calamari> if he could have stabbed me with an icepick through the internet he would have (re: forkbomb article)
01:18:17 <Vorpal> he is very emotional, easy to overreact and so on
01:18:17 <quintopia> he probably did
01:18:34 <Vorpal> calamari, what article was that?
01:18:43 <calamari> and I probably would have deserved it a little bit lol
01:18:55 <elliott_> calamari: i don't want anyone to die, but hey, in that case pikhq had just as much vitrol as me >:)
01:19:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: i don't really overreact so much as I'm always ready to start yelling at you because I find the requirement to come up astonishingly often.
01:19:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, you do at other people too
01:19:37 <elliott_> it's like when you used to be able to set Mozilla to load at system startup to make it quicker when you start it
01:19:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: not really. I don't recall yelling at ais523 or olsner or Gregor or ...
01:20:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, gregor and autoconf
01:20:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, seriously?
01:20:17 <Vorpal> you yelled at him
01:20:20 <elliott_> I didn't "yell", I disagreed.
01:20:31 <elliott_> Possibly with *bold marks*.
01:20:35 <quintopia> i don't recall you yelling at anyone. do you ever caps lock?
01:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, ais523: only once iirc, and over a year ago
01:20:42 <calamari> I'm an opinionated asshole, it's easy to get into it with me :)
01:20:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, that is rare. But he doesn't yell that way
01:20:46 * Gregor is watching a Bit of Fry and Laurie.
01:20:51 <elliott_> Vorpal: The fact that you're *keeping track of who I yell at* suggests you're ... uh, crazy.
01:21:01 <quintopia> Gregor: love that shit. which one?
01:21:02 <elliott_> quintopia: I capslock exclusively for Vorpal, it is a privilege and honour reserved solely for ihm.
01:21:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, wrong. You yelled at sgeo I think
01:21:17 <quintopia> ha
01:21:35 <elliott_> Yes, but I hold down shift at those junctures.
01:21:38 <Gregor> quintopia: First episode.
01:21:39 <elliott_> Since he usually shuts up pretty quickly.
01:26:21 <Sgeo> I may have misplaced trust in elliott_
01:26:27 <elliott_> What.
01:26:33 <elliott_> Trust in me is always golden.
01:26:39 <elliott_> I am like a shining pillar of perfection.
01:27:09 <elliott_> Sgeo: ?
01:27:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, when was the last time I disagreed with elliott_?
01:27:47 <elliott_> All the time?
01:27:48 <elliott_> <Sgeo> I may have misplaced trust in elliott_
01:27:48 <elliott_> Why
01:28:07 <Sgeo> elliott_, I take your opinions too seriously
01:28:29 <elliott_> Sgeo: Well, I *am* always right.
01:28:53 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:29:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, do you know what hubris is?
01:30:00 <quintopia> you overstate your positions sometimes, but you have a lot of rightness. occasionally you make matters of opinion out to be more black and white than they are and that is a bit irksome.
01:30:12 <elliott_> Vorpal: Something that doesn't apply to people who are already right.
01:30:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, verily
01:30:18 <elliott_> quintopia: You see, the thing is that I'm always right.
01:30:31 <elliott_> (Note: I do not actually believe that I am always right.)
01:30:33 <elliott_> (Yes I do!)
01:30:36 <elliott_> (No I don't. etc.)
01:30:39 <quintopia> except when i am right and i disagree with you
01:30:41 <Vorpal> (also split personality)
01:30:53 <elliott_> quintopia: then you're wrong
01:30:53 <quintopia> you might start to sway me into thinking i'm wrong
01:31:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, don't let that happen
01:31:09 <quintopia> but then i realize i was wrong about being wrong and was actually right
01:31:15 <quintopia> it's good to know you are wrong sometimes
01:31:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, are you right about that?
01:32:02 <quintopia> sometimes
01:32:09 <Vorpal> good
01:32:15 <elliott_> quintopia: unfortunately, you're wrong, that never happens
01:32:19 <elliott_> i know this because i know it never happens
01:32:20 <elliott_> and i'm always right
01:32:38 <Vorpal> anyone need instructions for making a cross compiler to RCX on modern linux?
01:32:49 <Vorpal> I wrote a guide, surely /someone/ out there needs it
01:32:52 <quintopia> well, here's proof you're sometimes wrong...you are wrong about always being right
01:33:16 <Vorpal> anyway http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/lego/rcx-toolchain-guide/guide.html
01:33:17 <Sgeo> Ugh, the smell of nitrogen is overpowering
01:33:41 <quintopia> obtw, True Grit is a p cool movie. i smell an oscar nomination for jeff bridges
01:33:52 <Vorpal> isn't nitrogen odorless?
01:34:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I'm pretty sure you can't smell nitrogen
01:34:11 * Sgeo was joking
01:34:19 <elliott_> <quintopia> well, here's proof you're sometimes wrong...you are wrong about always being right
01:34:20 <elliott_> wrong.
01:34:28 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/esj6l/fire_officials_noticed_a_strong_odor_of_carbon/c1akw23
01:34:43 <elliott_> <!-- Note: this file is a Markdown file -->
01:34:46 <elliott_> No it's not. It's HTML.
01:34:48 <Sgeo> Although that commentor is a moron
01:34:52 <Sgeo> But whatever
01:35:03 <quintopia> elliott_: hypertext markdown language
01:35:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, the source of it is
01:35:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, see same file .md
01:36:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: well it's a lie
01:36:09 <elliott_> ergo you are sometimes wrong
01:36:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, I saw no way to make a comment in markdown :P
01:36:13 <elliott_> ergo i'm right
01:36:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, I never claimed I was /always/ right. I just disputed you were always right
01:36:42 <Vorpal> also I see another typo there
01:36:45 <Vorpal> which I will fix
01:36:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: your Makefile is wrong
01:36:49 <elliott_> you don't define all and clean to be phony targets
01:36:55 <elliott_> so basically you're a failure right
01:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, well all and clean are not required to be that
01:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, if you create them: so what
01:37:21 <Vorpal> that is not my issue
01:37:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: touch all; make
01:37:27 <elliott_> this will produce incorrect results
01:37:30 <elliott_> your makefile is WRONG.
01:37:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, so will rm -f Makefile; make
01:37:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, that produces wrong result too
01:37:55 <elliott_> Vorpal: but all is a perfectly valid filename and so is clean
01:37:56 * Sgeo gets slightly creeped out by Reddit Enhancement Suite being in View Source of a reddit page
01:38:02 <elliott_> your makefile doesn't say "BREAKS IF YOU MAKE ALL OR CLEAN"
01:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, you are absurd
01:38:45 <coppro> no elliott_ is quite correct
01:38:52 <coppro> all and clean ought to be phony targets
01:38:56 <Vorpal> coppro, yes but it is not of any importance really
01:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, it also breaks if you >guide.md && > guide.html && make
01:39:08 <coppro> it's one line
01:39:09 <coppro> go do it
01:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, this will not rebuild guide.html
01:39:25 <Vorpal> coppro, now that ehird said it? No :P
01:39:33 <Sgeo> Is Vorpal having an off day?
01:39:36 <coppro> msut be
01:39:58 <Vorpal> coppro, actually they are already phony locally
01:40:04 <Vorpal> coppro, so I guess I just forgot to push
01:40:13 <coppro> WELL THEN PUSH GODDAMMIT
01:40:20 <Vorpal> coppro, sure.
01:40:35 <elliott_> coppro: AMEND
01:41:35 <elliott_> [on web browsers]
01:41:35 <elliott_> 09:05:35 <catseye> Sgeo: what you must do, of course, is write your own
01:41:36 <elliott_> 09:06:23 <Sgeo> Able to use WebKit, Gecko, or .. the IE one as necessary
01:41:36 <elliott_> 09:06:32 <Sgeo> Able to use extensions from any browser
01:41:36 <elliott_> 09:06:50 <Sgeo> Can use GreaseMonkey scripts designed for any browser
01:41:43 <elliott_> And why, my OS can run Windows, Linux, and BeOS binaries!
01:41:53 <coppro> no it can't
01:41:58 <Vorpal> coppro, refresh
01:42:02 <elliott_> coppro: it was a joke
01:42:08 <coppro> Vorpal: I don't even know what you're talking about
01:42:29 <Vorpal> coppro, since you complained about the makefile above, refresh
01:42:41 <Sgeo> Would that be easier than the browser thing?
01:42:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ........................................................................................................................................
01:43:05 <elliott_> I think we should kill Sgeo. Also Vorpal.
01:43:18 <elliott_> 09:11:35 <Sgeo> Can I use IE6's Trident if IE>6 is installed?
01:43:19 <elliott_> 09:12:11 <Sgeo> So that businesses can use this browser in place of IE6
01:43:57 <Vorpal> I'm sure you could, with a lot of pain. Such as a VM.
01:44:00 <Vorpal> and invoke that
01:44:41 <elliott_> I miss cpressey.
01:45:06 <Sgeo> If the kernel can be set up to invoke WINE, and WINE keeps improving, a system would run both Win32 and Linux executables easily
01:45:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah haven't seen him for a while
01:45:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wonder where he is
01:45:20 <elliott_> Vorpal: he left because the channel was eating all his time.
01:45:23 <elliott_> he's still active on the wiki.
01:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah okay
01:45:29 <elliott_> but i miss mocking you in /msg!
01:45:32 <elliott_> maybe i shouldn't have said that
01:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes I know you are a complete turd. So what
01:45:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: so cpressey is a complete turd too? :)
01:46:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, probably not. Only 45% or so
01:47:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:47:26 <j-invariant> hi
01:47:26 <zzo38> Why is voxelperfect.net expired?
01:47:38 <Gregor> Because the owner was LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME
01:47:45 -!- quintopia has set topic: this channel is 45% turds on average | voxelperfect.net has expired, the wiki is still reachable at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:48:01 <zzo38> I will correct the bookmark now.
01:48:16 <quintopia> who was the owner?
01:48:20 <elliott_> graue
01:48:29 <Vorpal> I hope esolangs.org won't expire
01:48:31 -!- elliott_ has set topic: turds at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | historical turds at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:48:37 <Gregor> I thought graue owned esolangs.org?
01:48:45 <elliott_> Gregor: Ineded
01:48:46 <elliott_> *Indeed
01:48:56 <elliott_> I think voxelperfect only had esolangs on really
01:49:00 <zzo38> Well, I fixed the bookmark now.
01:49:17 <elliott_> Administrative Contact:
01:49:17 <Vorpal> hrrm
01:49:17 <elliott_> Feeney, Scott another.step.away@gmail.com
01:49:19 <elliott_> Gregor: That's Graue.
01:49:21 <Gregor> elliott_: He ... owned both, and didn't tell us when one expired, even though all it had was esolangs? :P
01:49:24 <quintopia> esolangs is a better name anyway
01:49:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes I'm scared
01:49:35 <elliott_> Gregor: It might have been an accidental slip; it was just the 27th.
01:49:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: He's edited the wiki recently.
01:49:43 <elliott_> And esolangs is registered until 2011.
01:49:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm
01:49:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, that is just a few days away!
01:49:52 <quintopia> possibly he got tired of paying for two
01:49:55 <elliott_> Gregor: It conceivably had non-esolangs stuff that just wasn't linked to
01:50:04 <elliott_> What.
01:50:07 <elliott_> esolangs.org isn't Graue's.
01:50:13 <elliott_> Registrant Name:Alan Dipert
01:50:13 <elliott_> Registrant Email:completelycrazy@aol.com
01:50:18 <elliott_> Guess we're OK then :P
01:50:20 <Vorpal> who the heck is that
01:50:21 <quintopia> who dat?
01:50:22 <elliott_> Created On:24-May-2005 19:21:16 UTC
01:50:22 <elliott_> Last Updated On:03-Dec-2009 07:12:24 UTC
01:50:22 <elliott_> Expiration Date:24-May-2011 19:21:16 UTC
01:50:24 <Gregor> Uhhh
01:50:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, who is alan dipert?
01:50:26 <Gregor> But who is that?
01:50:31 <elliott_> I have NO FUCKING CLUE :P
01:50:34 <Vorpal> uh uh
01:50:39 <elliott_> http://alan.dipert.org/
01:50:41 <zzo38> elliott_: Then maybe they could get a subdomain if we need to, for non-esolangs stuff? (Except possibly things in the wiki, such as DottyWeb and so on)
01:50:52 <quintopia> well at least we have an email
01:50:56 <elliott_> Google thinks one of his best works is https://github.com/alandipert/ncsa-mosaic
01:51:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, dude how the heck did he get around the license problems of that
01:51:28 <Vorpal> mosaic is /not/ foss
01:51:44 <elliott_> well the source has been available for N years.
01:51:59 <Vorpal> yes but check https://github.com/alandipert/ncsa-mosaic/blob/1e53bc1a5fb778f0bbcf49364d5947e666f2fbbd/COPYRIGHT
01:52:16 <elliott_> * Licensee may make derivative works. However, if Licensee distributes *
01:52:17 <elliott_> * any derivative work based on or derived from the Software, then *
01:52:17 <elliott_> * Licensee will (1) notify NCSA regarding its distribution of the *
01:52:17 <elliott_> * derivative work, and (2) clearly notify users that such derivative *
01:52:17 <elliott_> * work is a modified version and not the original NCSA Mosaic *
01:52:17 <elliott_> * distributed by the UI. *
01:52:27 <elliott_> So basically all he had to do was email NCSA and change one line.
01:52:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm
01:52:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's (almost) as FOSS as TeX.
01:52:48 <elliott_> TeX you have to change the name; this you have to change the name and tell them.
01:52:59 <elliott_> NCSA probably aren't going away ever.
01:53:00 <Vorpal> hm fair enough
01:53:17 <elliott_> After NCSA stopped work on Mosaic, development of the NCSA Mosaic for the X Window System source code was continued by several independent groups. These independent development efforts include mMosaic (multicast Mosaic)[19] which ceased development in early 2004, and Mosaic-CK and VMS Mosaic which are both under active development as of July 2010.
01:53:31 <Vorpal> multicast mosaic?
01:53:33 <Vorpal> how...
01:53:35 <elliott_> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/9610_Workshop/paper05/paper05.html
01:54:05 <Vorpal> wow
01:54:18 <elliott_> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/9610_Workshop/paper05/user-ex.gif UNIX!
01:54:37 <elliott_> I could not look at screens like that all day without vomiting :P
01:54:43 <zzo38> Actually with TeX it is a bit different: Files like plain.tex you have to just change the name; with tex.web you have to put changes in separate files (but can still call it TeX as long as it passes the TRIP test), but the algorithms in TeX are public domain, so I assume the copyright on tex.web is like a collection copyright.
01:54:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, blame mosaic's fucking stupid X resources
01:55:01 <elliott_> zzo38: Fair enough.
01:55:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: The cyan background doesn't help
01:55:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, true
01:55:24 <zzo38> (Of course, you are still not allowed to call any software derived from it "tex.web")
01:55:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, but bold italic menus?
01:55:37 <elliott_> zzo38: Even if it passes TRIP?
01:55:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, that's just utterly stupid
01:55:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: I don't /think/ that's default.
01:55:50 <elliott_> So someone, somewhere, decided to TURN IT INTO THAT.
01:55:50 <Vorpal> elliott_, it is
01:55:52 <elliott_> Genius.
01:55:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: heh
01:56:06 <elliott_> This is why us typography nerds are important, guys.
01:56:12 <elliott_> If we'd been around then, we'd have bludgeoned the guy to death.
01:56:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, was like one of the first things I changed when I got the thing to work
01:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes and you would have been locked up
01:56:25 <elliott_> Why did you ever try and get Mosaic to work.
01:56:27 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes I think so. However if it doesn't pass TRIP, you are not allowed to call *executables* derived from it + change files "tex". If it does pass TRIP, you can call its executables "tex".
01:56:29 <elliott_> <Vorpal> elliott_, yes and you would have been locked up
01:56:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: Worth it to avoid Mosaic, innit?
01:56:34 <quintopia> good typography is invisible, bad typography is everywhere
01:56:37 <zzo38> At least this is how understand it.
01:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, worth it anyway!
01:56:54 <elliott_> That's what I said.
01:56:58 <zzo38> s/how /how I /
01:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh right
01:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, I tried mosaic because I was interested in computer history
01:57:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, same as you tried PDP emulators
01:57:32 <zzo38> Do you think this is correct? (Knuth hasn't made it entirely clear; but I think this is the intention.)
01:58:01 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yeah, but history enthusiasts don't try and be a Jew in a realistic reenactment of the holocaust.
01:58:09 <zzo38> (That is, use of the name TeX is intended to be governed by trademark law, not copyright law.)
01:58:10 <elliott_> Vorpal: So why did you revisit an interface holocaust?
01:58:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, yet they reenact the civil war and such
01:58:29 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yeah, but they don't use actual guns.
01:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, I didn't know the interface
01:58:36 <elliott_> Using Mosaic is like shooting yourself repeatedly.
01:58:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, I found out after
01:58:50 <elliott_> You ... didn't know?
01:58:53 <elliott_> How long ago was this?
01:58:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, a few years
01:59:15 <zzo38> There are two things to look at: The copyright page of Computers & Typesetting Volume B, and the comment at the beginning of tex.web.
01:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, like, weeks after I learnt C
01:59:31 <elliott_> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1319327833/clubcompy-kids-heart-computers/posts/46045 "Why Teach Programming with BASIC" ... I think I have another person I need to kill.
01:59:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:59:51 <zzo38> So I believe it is like a collection copyright. Do you think this is reasonable?
01:59:56 <elliott_> Or perhaps encourage him, and infect his curriculum with insanity; hopefully it will scare everyone subjected to it off from programming forever.
02:00:06 <elliott_> (Yes, that's better than having BASIC-weened programmers running around.)
02:00:09 <elliott_> zzo38: Sure.
02:00:18 -!- wareya has joined.
02:01:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway mosaic isn't that bad
02:01:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, apart from the UI
02:01:09 <Vorpal> and the actual code
02:01:13 <Vorpal> it isn't that bad
02:01:20 <Vorpal> which means only the idea is left
02:01:20 <elliott_> Vorpal: But Mosaic is a UI made out of code.
02:01:22 <Vorpal> and that isn't bad
02:01:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes but the non-UI code is also horrible
02:01:31 <Sgeo> Um
02:01:32 <elliott_> The idea is WIMP, and I'd argue WIMP is pretty bad :P
02:01:49 <Sgeo> Does the BASIC referred to have decent control structures?
02:01:54 <Sgeo> Maybe they don't teach GOTO
02:02:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what's wrong with 20 GOTO 10?
02:02:23 <Sgeo> Vorpal: Teaching it to kids
02:02:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ... did you think I was serious?
02:03:09 <Sgeo> No comment.
02:03:14 <Vorpal> XD
02:03:15 <elliott_> I wonder what makes Sgeo try and apologise for idiots.
02:03:59 <quintopia> nah, everyone knows you sshould teach programming with LOGO
02:04:20 <zzo38> I made a program once that allowed you to write GWBASIC programs without line numbers (something like WEB, actually; there were a few differences, one was that it printed to Epson control codes).
02:04:39 <Sgeo> "Similarly, BASIC's relative lack of abstractions is an advantage to people who've never programmed before." or, you know, you could just choose a language that has those abstractions but doesn't force them
02:04:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm all for scheme. Though if you are targeting pre-high school that might not work out so well for the majority of the cases.
02:04:45 <Sgeo> (Python comes to mind)
02:05:21 <elliott_> Sgeo: Python is a terrible first language to teach.
02:05:28 <elliott_> Or a second language -- or a third language -- or a language.
02:05:40 <Vorpal> quite
02:06:02 <Sgeo> The big issue that I see with it being a first language is that it's different from mainstream languages in the importance of indentation
02:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, an imperative one might work better if you are trageting pre-highschool
02:06:12 <Sgeo> People might rely on it too much
02:06:20 <elliott_> Vorpal: Not really.
02:06:28 <elliott_> Sgeo: ...shut up.
02:06:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, not for you and me indeed
02:06:32 <elliott_> Sgeo: these are like 10 year olds.
02:06:35 <elliott_> Vorpal: Imperative seems intuitive only because we know it.
02:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, /but/ for the majority of kids
02:06:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: Same with WIMP interfaces.
02:06:42 <elliott_> Vorpal: Same with filesystems.
02:06:53 <elliott_> I can guarantee you that none of these are actually intuitive the first time around.
02:07:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, I think you are wrong, but I give you the benefit of doubt. imperative is like shouting commands. functional is like math.
02:07:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: Filesystems are like filing cabinets. Object space is like goop. Do you have any idea how much trouble my mother has with filesystems?
02:07:57 <elliott_> Yes, you can construct metaphors that seem just about right. That's irrelevant.
02:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, like goop? eh
02:08:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yes, formless nothingness where you have to dig to find anything.
02:08:34 <zzo38> I make new computer, BASIC and Forth are both built-in to the system. (Others can be installed separately, or cross-compiled from other computers, or whatever.) And BASIC is not recommended for new programs, it is there for compatibility with old computers and old books.
02:08:39 <Sgeo> Filesystems are not like filing cabinets. That you can construct a bad analogy does not mean that all analogies are bad
02:08:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm. Are you sure that is a /good/ thing
02:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, also I agree filesystems are bad
02:09:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: Of course not.
02:09:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: I was showing how metaphors can make filesystems look good.
02:09:14 <zzo38> This way makes sense?
02:09:15 <elliott_> They're intuitive - everyone knows how to use filing cabinets.
02:09:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, but a file system is not the same as imperative programming
02:09:29 <elliott_> And yes, I used capslock.
02:09:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, I agree they aren't
02:09:40 <elliott_> Imperative -- it's like shouting commands! No, that doesn't really work at all.
02:09:48 <elliott_> (And really, is asking for input a command you shout?)
02:09:51 <elliott_> (The link is very tenuous.)
02:09:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?"
02:10:02 <Sgeo> Imperative is a list of instructions.
02:10:07 <Sgeo> There, why not that?
02:10:21 <elliott_> Vorpal: Anyway, even if imperative is "easier" to teach it's still a bad idea.
02:10:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes that is better is more like how imperative is like.
02:10:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, so it is
02:10:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, A HOLLOW VOICE SHOUTS PLUGH (yes, yes, paraphrased)
02:10:45 <elliott_> I'd rather have less people be able to program than a bunch of people who have no idea how to program well.
02:11:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, verily but try to get that past the radar
02:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, it will be screams about elitism and segregation all over.
02:11:52 <Vorpal> at least in Sweden
02:12:05 <Vorpal> your politics might be different
02:12:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: Ha, you are so lucky to be able to complain about too *much* populism.
02:12:15 <elliott_> (For some value of populism.)
02:12:25 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think programming at pre-high-school level is more likely to get cries of "but that's *useless*!" here.
02:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, well it would that too
02:13:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, not sure this is populism actually. It is generally the Swedish education style. Dumb things down until almost everyone pass.
02:13:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yes, well, you see that everywhere because of STATISTICS, we need better STATISTICS, exam results will improve THIS MUCH in five years -- and they do because now they're easy.
02:14:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, this is true up to university level. Then it changes /drastically/
02:14:03 <zzo38> What I do is this my new make computer, even the manual includes information about how to use these built-in programming languages, and you are encouraged to learn it and write a program. But you do not have to write a program to use this computer; you could just insert the DVD and play the game.
02:14:04 <elliott_> Politics is fucked, what's new?
02:14:37 <Vorpal> how zzo...
02:14:59 <Vorpal> (and it doesn't change anything really)
02:15:11 <Vorpal> (it is like pre-installing MSVC or something)
02:16:20 <Sgeo> Going to watch Q-Less soon
02:17:37 <elliott_> Sgeo: It's a Q episode and it's not Enterprise. Prepare for suckage.
02:17:48 <Sgeo> You meant TNG
02:17:49 <Sgeo> ?
02:17:51 <elliott_> Er, yes.
02:17:57 <elliott_> *and it's not set on the Enterprise.
02:17:58 <elliott_> HAHA RETCON
02:18:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: I think it does change some things, the entire computer is very different.
02:18:16 <Sgeo> I suppose it's still mandatory?
02:18:36 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Sgeo: It's a Q episode and it's not Enterprise. Prepare for suckage. <-- I was wondering if it was star trek too
02:19:07 <Vorpal> s/too//
02:19:25 <Sgeo> <3 watching stuff on YouTube
02:19:48 <zzo38> (Such as, you do not have to learn any operating system, you can just put the DVD in and push START button if you want; but you can learn the operating system too (or even modify the operating system) if you want to.)
02:19:50 <j-invariant> like what stuff?
02:19:57 <Sgeo> Star Trek
02:20:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, split into 10 minute videos?
02:20:52 <elliott_> Probably.
02:20:56 <elliott_> Because BitTorrent is HARD.
02:21:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, won't they get "aaargh remove this" stuff
02:21:12 <Gregor> My wikilog is 528MB
02:21:16 <Vorpal> and thus not have them there
02:21:18 <Gregor> I'm surprised that it's not bigger than that.
02:21:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, wikilog hm?
02:21:25 <Vorpal> what does that do
02:21:32 <Sgeo> I just heard a quote that I seem to remember has some relevance later
02:21:39 <Vorpal> is it like irc logs which you can comment on, using a wiki?
02:21:50 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... no :P
02:21:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, it should be!
02:22:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, (but seriously, what is it?)
02:22:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: That ... is nonsense.
02:22:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: My backup of the wiki is stored in hg, so I have a log external to its own log.
02:22:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh nice
02:22:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is good to know someone has a backup of it
02:23:24 <Gregor> There are several.
02:24:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, could be that graue lets shit hit the fan and so on
02:24:16 <Vorpal> (vps/dedi/whatever going away or such)
02:25:32 <zzo38> I made in TeXnicard, a variation of Martin Pool's natural compare algorithm, but it does more things such as roman numerals compare, numbers with radix point, numbers with comma as thousands separator, and a few more. It is customizable at run time by the S table.
02:25:43 <zzo38> What is your opinion about this?
02:26:11 <j-invariant> that's very sophisticated
02:26:20 <j-invariant> you could probably use it elsewhere
02:26:52 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
02:27:16 <zzo38> I have put it in its own chapter. You could probably use it elsewhere and put a bibliography citation if you want to.
02:31:36 <elliott_> j-invariant: except it's in TeX :)
02:32:23 <zzo38> elliott_: Actually it is in C.
02:32:43 <elliott_> Oh, okay.
02:33:01 <zzo38> TeXnicard is not written entirely in TeX.
02:34:21 <zzo38> (It does create .tex and .mf and whatever as output files, and then TeX makes the .dvi file, and then TeXnicard will read the .dvi file again and then calls ImageMagick to create .png and so on.)
02:38:08 <zzo38> Is this a proper code in C, assuming both functions have the same return type and arguments? (fractional?compare_left:compare_right)(pa,pb)
02:42:10 <elliott_> zzo38: Probably not.
02:42:18 <elliott_> (*(fractional?compare_left:compare_right))(pa,pb) possibly.
02:44:17 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:44:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, does it handle comma as decimal separator (Swedish use that)
02:44:44 <zzo38> elliott_: Actually it looks like it compiled without error.
02:44:54 -!- zeotrope has joined.
02:44:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: You can customize those things by modifying the S table.
02:45:29 <elliott_> zzo38: Plenty of invalid programs compile without error.
02:45:31 <elliott_> zzo38: What compiler?
02:45:41 <zzo38> elliott_: GNU C
02:45:54 <elliott_> zzo38: Try -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic.
02:45:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, if both return function pointers
02:46:03 <Vorpal> they it sounds valid
02:46:05 <elliott_> zzo38: That will probably tell you it's not valid C90.
02:46:09 <Vorpal> but I won't promise you that
02:46:14 <elliott_> Vorpal: "(fractional?compare_left:compare_right)(pa,pb)" I am not sure this is valid.
02:46:22 <elliott_> I think you need to do (*f)() in such a complex expression.
02:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm maybe
02:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, who knows
02:47:24 <Vorpal> elliott_, function pointer syntax is a bit whacky really
02:56:06 <elliott_> zzo38: did you get an error?
03:00:39 <elliott_> It also should be kept in mind that 'bastards' is often used in English as a generic derogatory term, not necessarily relating to the marital status of one's parents.[3]
03:04:59 <elliott_> "Then it makes even less sense, with no moving parts there isn't anything with a velocity.
03:04:59 <elliott_> A shutter requiring the energy of a nuclear bomb to work is much cooler to think about."
03:05:23 <elliott_> j-invariant: so have you built that infinite energy machine yet
03:06:10 <j-invariant> I was thinking of using it to build a maxwell demon
03:06:29 <j-invariant> but in that case it would have to know where it was, as well as where every air particle is
03:06:58 <j-invariant> that's not really the kind of abstract information I was trying to exploit
03:09:33 <elliott_> j-invariant: i think the issue is this: fundamentally, infinite information != infinite energy
03:09:42 <elliott_> j-invariant: infinite information *generated according to physics* = infinite energy
03:09:49 <elliott_> but this box basically violates physics, you can't exploit any byproducts of it
03:10:32 <j-invariant> lol
03:10:36 <j-invariant> yeah I guess os
03:10:50 <Sgeo> Information confuses me
03:15:49 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:16:07 -!- variable has joined.
03:21:23 <elliott_> j-invariant: do you know what complexity class Coq is?
03:21:35 <elliott_> j-invariant: it's bigger than PR (has Ackermann) but smaller than R (obviously)
03:21:41 <elliott_> Wikipedia lists no classes in-between those two
03:22:13 <elliott_> alternatively what type of automaton it is
03:27:34 <j-invariant> elliott_: might have to understand a normalization proof to get a handle on that - I have absolutely no idea
03:27:57 <elliott_> j-invariant: hehe yeah
03:30:44 <quintopia> coq guarantees halting
03:30:46 <quintopia> ?
03:30:57 <j-invariant> yes
03:32:24 <elliott_> quintopia: yes.
03:32:29 <elliott_> quintopia: if it did not, it would be inconsistent.
03:32:51 <elliott_> _|_ is a proof of anything. also, you would have a _type_ that doesn't halt i.e. _|_ : Set and I have no fucking clue what that would mean
03:32:55 <elliott_> but it sounds very scary :-)
03:33:57 <quintopia> i don't see why it would be inconsistent? wouldn't it just be incomplete in a different way? (i have never used coq so i need more exposition)
03:35:02 <elliott_> quintopia: because _|_ would prove everything
03:35:04 <elliott_> proofs are values
03:35:15 <elliott_> if you know Haskell --
03:35:19 <elliott_> you can initialise any value to undefined
03:35:27 <elliott_> thus, undefined is a value of every type
03:35:28 <elliott_> ==
03:35:33 <elliott_> thus, undefined is a proof of every proposition
03:35:33 <elliott_> in Coq
03:36:11 <quintopia> huh
03:36:41 <quintopia> is it coq/haskell tradition to call bottom undefined? (i don't really know haskell either)
03:36:44 <j-invariant> p : P means that p is a proof of P. If we can always reduce p to a normal form the we can make the following argument:
03:37:03 <j-invariant> There is no proof of false because there is no normal form proof of false
03:37:21 <elliott_> <quintopia> is it coq/haskell tradition to call bottom undefined? (i don't really know haskell either)
03:37:22 <elliott_> haskell has
03:37:25 <elliott_> undefined = error "undefined"
03:37:31 <elliott_> but it's just haskell tradition
03:37:37 <elliott_> coq has no _|_-relevant traditions, as it has no _|_ :)
03:38:39 <quintopia> j-invariant: but being less than total recursive makes it impossible to guarantee p can always be reduced to a normal form and therefore the argument fails?
03:38:49 <Sgeo> Coq has no _|_?
03:38:50 <Sgeo> o.O
03:39:12 <j-invariant> quintopia: what do you mean less than total recursive?
03:39:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, does agda always guarantee termination as well?
03:39:58 <quintopia> < elliott_> j-invariant: it's bigger than PR (has Ackermann) but smaller than R (obviously)
03:40:20 <Vorpal> PR?
03:40:24 <Vorpal> which one is that now again
03:40:29 <elliott_> Vorpal: primitive recursive
03:40:32 <j-invariant> every primitive recursive function is total
03:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh right
03:40:36 <elliott_> and agda does, unless you tell it not to, in which case you can do whatever you want
03:40:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah
03:40:43 <elliott_> (this is used an uncomfortably lot)
03:40:49 <Vorpal> ouch
03:41:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, it should really only be used to make a main loop or such
03:41:08 <Vorpal> that is what I feel
03:41:11 <j-invariant> 'Solvable groups are sometimes called "soluble groups," a turn of phrase that is a source of possible amusement to chemists. ' <-- hear that chemists??? possible amusment!
03:41:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: you don't need that
03:41:18 <j-invariant> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SolvableGroup.html
03:41:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh?
03:41:20 <elliott_> say if you have a codata IO monad :-)
03:41:20 <quintopia> j-invariant: my bad...i meant the name of the class of all computable functions
03:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah
03:41:40 <elliott_> j-invariant: oh man i feel this possible amusement bubbling up in my gut
03:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, it has that sort of stuff
03:41:43 <elliott_> or is that indigestion
03:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, or does it?
03:41:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: well no agda doesn't :D
03:41:48 <elliott_> afaik
03:41:49 <j-invariant> quintopia: all computable functions are total
03:41:52 <Vorpal> elliott_, right
03:42:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, does any language?
03:42:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, I mean, any implemented one
03:42:36 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, but thankfully there are only like three languages like Coq and Agda. :)
03:42:39 <j-invariant> it's just that you can't make a programming language that matches that exactly
03:42:44 <elliott_> j-invariant: yes you can
03:42:44 <quintopia> j-invariant: so is my statement correct about said class? is that the reason the proof fails?
03:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, which is the third one?
03:42:50 <elliott_> j-invariant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
03:42:56 <Sgeo> http://damienkatz.net/2008/03/what_sucks_abou.html
03:42:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: Epigram? :p
03:43:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh
03:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, 1 or 2?
03:43:05 * Sgeo decides that the criticisms of if are braindead
03:43:09 <j-invariant> I mean in a Turing machine
03:43:12 <Sgeo> I get the reordering thing though
03:43:33 <elliott_> j-invariant: i'm just trolling :)
03:43:39 <j-invariant> most languages step over the line, and you have a lot of programs which never halt. Coq and others don't cross the line but they try to get close to it
03:43:42 <elliott_> j-invariant: also you can if you acecpt the undefined behaviour of not halting when given an invalid program
03:43:44 <elliott_> *accept
03:43:48 <j-invariant> elliott_: no it's a good point I shouldnt' make that assumption implicitly
03:44:08 <elliott_> well super-turing languages are pretty useless :p
03:44:22 <elliott_> and sub-turing languages requiring a super-turing machine to run with full error reporting triply so
03:44:27 <Sgeo> "But it also means you can't distinguish easily at runtime between a string and a list, and especially between a string and a list of integers."
03:44:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, actually super-turing languages are very useful. But not usable
03:44:43 <elliott_> typing [97,98] into erlang returns "ab"
03:44:43 <elliott_> :)
03:44:45 <Sgeo> I can understand how Erlang's string stuff has problems... that's not really one of them
03:44:45 <j-invariant> lol
03:45:02 <elliott_> not having a char type is pretty lame imo but whatever
03:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, this is correct. It is the REPL trying to be "helpful"
03:45:12 <j-invariant> elliott_: heheh we should get quad to do a blog post on that
03:45:18 <elliott_> Vorpal: It is not helpful if you have some data which happens to be all in ASCII range
03:45:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: if it does unicode, well, wow
03:45:29 <elliott_> suddenly everything prints as a string!
03:45:37 <elliott_> j-invariant: it's a more valid complaint than having to write a tiny type signature :-P
03:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm not sure what it does to random unicode.
03:45:39 * Vorpal tries
03:45:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: maybe a HEURISTIC
03:45:55 <elliott_> ((#\[) (let ((body (parse)))
03:45:55 <elliott_> (cons body (parse))))
03:45:58 <elliott_> :( this makes my code uglier
03:45:59 <Vorpal> 1> [$ä].
03:45:59 <Vorpal> "ä"
03:45:59 <Vorpal> 2> [$¬].
03:45:59 <Vorpal> "¬"
03:46:01 <Vorpal> WELLL
03:46:04 <Sgeo> That's a REPL problem really
03:46:04 <elliott_> ¬ is latin-1
03:46:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh fair enough
03:46:15 <Vorpal> 3> [$→].
03:46:15 <Vorpal> [8594]
03:46:18 <elliott_> lol.
03:46:31 <elliott_> Sgeo: it's a problem with the language not encoding rich enough information into values
03:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, so the reply tries to be helpful. Also since erlang is dynamically typed there isn't that much point in adding a char type.
03:47:25 <Sgeo> "Give me memory, or give me death!"
03:47:32 * Sgeo reads
03:47:33 <elliott_> sweet, r5rs doesn't even have command line argument facilities
03:47:36 <Sgeo> Ok, THAT looks serious
03:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, I bet r6rs has
03:47:57 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah it also has an aborted fetus sitting on top of a throne pooping on people who like the language too much
03:48:03 <elliott_> (not really, but R6RS is of comparable horribleness)
03:48:06 <Vorpal> right
03:48:12 <elliott_> note: i am sleepy
03:48:25 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Sgeo: it's a problem with the language not encoding rich enough information into values <-- possibly, but dynamically strongly typed sounds... weird
03:48:38 <elliott_> The following top-level program obtains the first argument from the command line via the command-line procedure from the (rnrs programs (6)) library (see library chapter on “Command-line access and exit values”). It then opens the file using open-file-input-port (see library section on “)”, yielding a port, i.e. a connection to the file as a data source, and calls the get-bytes-all procedure t
03:48:38 <elliott_> o obtain the contents of the file as binary data. It then uses put-bytes to output the contents of the file to standard output:
03:48:39 <elliott_> indeed.
03:49:51 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> http://damienkatz.net/2008/03/what_sucks_abou.html <-- unidiomatic use of if. It is not like if of something like C
03:49:52 <j-invariant> group theory is so fucking complicated
03:50:10 <Vorpal> of course you need to handle all variants
03:50:18 <Vorpal> this is by design
03:50:58 <Vorpal> anyway it is the wrong way to do it in those examples
03:51:01 <elliott_> Vorpal: damien katz wrote couchdb FWIW.
03:51:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, huh
03:51:12 <elliott_> Vorpal: so I _think_ he probably knows that ;)
03:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, the first if example: should be case
03:51:34 <Vorpal> the second one: function with two entry clauses
03:52:48 <Vorpal> "Erlang string operations are just not as simple or easy as most languages with integrated string types." <-- actually they work fairly well in my experience
03:53:15 * Sgeo ponders falling in love with Erlang
03:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, also he criticises it for single assignment. I rest my case on this point.
03:54:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: it looks like a bit of a rant. considering he created and maintains a _very_ popular, complex Erlang system.
03:54:34 <Sgeo> I think the memory thing is possibly a valid thing, assuming he's telling the truth
03:54:41 <elliott_> "case should_foo(X) of
03:54:41 <elliott_> true -> foo();
03:54:41 <elliott_> false -> ok
03:54:41 <elliott_> end"
03:54:43 <elliott_> Now that is stupid.
03:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, well yes, but what would haskell do?
03:55:20 <elliott_> if should_foo x then foo else ok
03:55:20 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Erlang isn't pure, Haskell is
03:55:29 <elliott_> single-assignment is stupid in an impure language
03:55:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, you could use if for it yes
03:55:52 <elliott_> Sgeo: "Update: On OS X with the most recent Erlang VM (R12B-1, emulator version 5.6.1), I can no longer reproduce this problem. Yay!"
03:55:52 <elliott_> Vorpal: nope
03:56:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, erlang is pure if you stay away from IO and ETS basically (okay process dict too)
03:56:00 <elliott_> bar() ->
03:56:00 <elliott_> if
03:56:00 <elliott_> should_foo(X) -> % compile error on this line!
03:56:00 <elliott_> foo();
03:56:00 <elliott_> true -> ok
03:56:01 <elliott_> end.
03:56:03 <elliott_> This limitation is due to Erlang's "when clause" pattern matching engine, which needs certain guarantees from the expressions for static optimization. Erlang allows a subset of the built-in functions (BIFs) in conditional expressions, but no user defined functions can be called whatsoever.
03:56:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: from the article
03:56:09 <Sgeo> elliott_, awesome
03:56:21 <Vorpal> <elliott_> if should_foo x then foo else ok <-- that's haskell for it?
03:56:26 <Vorpal> then it is about as bad
03:56:30 <Vorpal> not quite
03:56:32 <Vorpal> but similar
03:56:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: it doesn't mention True and False for no reason.
03:56:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: anyway Erlang should at /least/ have realif
03:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, fair enough
03:56:50 <elliott_> if its "if" statement is so useless :p
03:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, realif?
03:57:13 <elliott_> real if
03:57:18 <Vorpal> I would agree that records have annoying syntax however
03:57:18 <elliott_> one that accepts _any_ condition
03:57:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, it does
03:57:32 <elliott_> <elliott_> bar() ->
03:57:32 <elliott_> <elliott_> if
03:57:32 <elliott_> <elliott_> should_foo(X) -> % compile error on this line!
03:57:32 <elliott_> <elliott_> foo();
03:57:32 <elliott_> <elliott_> true -> ok
03:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, you can add any number of clauses?
03:57:33 <Sgeo> elliott_, where can user-derived functions be used in tests?
03:57:33 <elliott_> <elliott_> end.
03:57:35 <elliott_> <elliott_> This limitation is due to Erlang's "when clause" pattern matching engine, which needs certain guarantees from the expressions for static optimization. Erlang allows a subset of the built-in functions (BIFs) in conditional expressions, but no user defined functions can be called whatsoever.
03:57:39 <elliott_> Clearly not.
03:57:41 <elliott_> <elliott_> bar() ->
03:57:43 <elliott_> <elliott_> if
03:57:45 <elliott_> <elliott_> should_foo(X) -> % compile error on this line!
03:57:47 <elliott_> <elliott_> foo();
03:57:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes that is an issue
03:57:49 <elliott_> <elliott_> true -> ok
03:57:51 <elliott_> <elliott_> end.
03:57:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, a large issue
03:57:53 <elliott_> <elliott_> This limitation is due to Erlang's "when clause" pattern matching engine, which needs certain guarantees from the expressions for static optimization. Erlang allows a subset of the built-in functions (BIFs) in conditional expressions, but no user defined functions can be called whatsoever.
03:57:57 <elliott_> Vorpal: ^
03:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, that iirc is working on being fixed
03:57:59 <elliott_> That is not real if.
03:58:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, already partly fixed
03:58:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, right
03:58:06 <elliott_> Nice language revision.
03:58:12 <elliott_> Isn't it meant to be stable?
03:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, it won't break anything existing to add this
03:58:24 <Sgeo> What, exactly, do large Erlang programs do currently?
03:58:34 <elliott_> Sgeo has a knack of asking terrible questions
03:58:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, it will let more code compile, it won't let less code compile
03:58:38 <elliott_> *knack for
03:58:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes I'm trying to figure out what the hell he meant
03:59:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think he means to combat the IMPOSSIBLE PROBLEM OF "IF".
03:59:09 <Vorpal> oh
03:59:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, I never found it a problem in practise
03:59:42 <Vorpal> "Update: On OS X with the most recent Erlang VM (R12B-1, emulator version 5.6.1), I can no longer reproduce this problem. Yay!" right this is old
03:59:47 <Vorpal> R12B-1 ?
03:59:48 <elliott_> http://catseye.tc/projects/wumpus/src/wumpus.erl THIS IS THE MOST ENTERPRISEY WUMPUS GAME EVER.
03:59:49 <Vorpal> very old
03:59:54 <elliott_> Vorpal: the post was posted 2008.
03:59:55 <elliott_> as you can see.
04:00:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, even then it was somewhat old
04:00:10 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, it was the most recent.
04:00:12 <elliott_> obviously.
04:00:13 <elliott_> as he says.
04:00:17 * elliott_ does not want to live in a world where 2008 is somewhat old, incidentally.
04:00:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, erlang got unicode after R12B. It has lots of new stuff since then
04:00:24 <elliott_> <elliott_> http://catseye.tc/projects/wumpus/src/wumpus.erl THIS IS THE MOST ENTERPRISEY WUMPUS GAME EVER.
04:00:29 <elliott_> behold the enterprisey
04:00:32 <Vorpal> * elliott_ does not want to live in a world where 2008 is somewhat old, incidentally. <-- eh?
04:00:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, wow
04:00:48 <elliott_> yes, I think I don't like cpressey any more
04:00:53 <elliott_> it's ... perverse
04:01:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wouldn't use a record when you have like 4 members
04:01:20 <Vorpal> I would just use a tuple
04:01:28 <elliott_> Vorpal: Should data structures ever have more than four members?
04:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, well, sometimes that might be the best option
04:01:51 <elliott_> Vorpal: (Apart from boring enterprisey database stuff (like table of personal information).)
04:02:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, what about a bf compiler
04:02:12 <elliott_> Admittedly, that wumpus code has a nice antipattern: passing around a gigantic world state and returning new versions of it.
04:02:21 <elliott_> It's really stupid because ... it's imperative, you just hide it behind a lot of mess.
04:02:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, heh
04:02:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, no it doesn't
04:02:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, digraph....
04:02:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: ?
04:02:53 <Vorpal> digraph uses ETS
04:02:58 <elliott_> %% The state of almost the entire game is encapsulated into one record,
04:02:58 <elliott_> %% so it can more easily be passed between functions.
04:02:58 <elliott_> -record(game,
04:02:58 <elliott_> {
04:02:58 <elliott_> map, % a digraph representing the cave system
04:02:59 <elliott_> location, % a vertex representing the player's current location
04:02:59 <Vorpal> (no idea why)
04:03:00 <elliott_> arrows, % an integer representing the number of arrows left
04:03:02 <elliott_> nasty % a list of hazard records representing the nasties
04:03:04 <elliott_> }).
04:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, digraph uses ETS!
04:03:13 <elliott_> Shaddap.
04:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, it is impure
04:03:38 <elliott_> "Parts of this program were derived from the Erlang example program bf.erl."
04:03:41 <elliott_> Now that's some example program.
04:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, that game records will look like this tuple: {game,<ets table reference>,'strange$atom$whatever',42,[a,list,of,some,sort]}
04:04:12 <Vorpal> record*
04:04:40 <elliott_> Heh.
04:04:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, I don't remember what an ets table reference looks like
04:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, probably /not/ <foo>
04:05:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, could be an atom, could be something else
04:06:10 <zzo38> I recently made a variant of Wumpus game, some of the differences are: that you do not always know exactly where you are, that the game is scored, that there is a time limit, etc...
04:06:35 <Vorpal> the zzo edition of the world would be a strange place
04:06:46 <elliott_> 0mg cPR£ESSY!!!! http://catseye.tc/projects/openflax/openflax_core/doc/design/api.html itz 1nvalid
04:06:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll stay away from Erlang
04:07:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, erlang is decent. But it isn't perfect.
04:07:18 <Vorpal> that sums it up pretty well I think.
04:07:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, probably wrong mime type
04:07:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah he needs to set it as text/html ... or de-xhtml everything :)
04:08:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, or add those quotes. works too
04:08:29 <elliott_> Vorpal: Not if it has other errors :P
04:08:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, well he could fix those as well
04:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, probably easier than reconfiguring web server
04:09:18 <zzo38> It is part of the CGA Collection, which can be downloaded at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
04:09:18 <elliott_> Vorpal: He already has an .htaccess of overrides.
04:09:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh?
04:09:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, apache is shit
04:09:38 <elliott_> When pikhq bugged him into fixing the types.
04:09:46 <elliott_> Vorpal: Pretty sure he uses a shared host.
04:09:51 <Vorpal> ah
04:10:11 <zzo38> Did you try the CGA Collection games?
04:10:20 <elliott_> No.
04:11:01 <zzo38> It has 27 games.
04:11:18 <Vorpal> okay and?
04:12:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:12:44 <zzo38> Maybe you can try one or more of them.
04:12:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, works under linux as is?
04:13:17 <zzo38> Vorpal: No, they are all DOS programs. But maybe you can run them in a DOS emulator they should work.
04:13:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, too lazy to even consider it
04:13:44 <elliott_> zzo38: what port is your irc server
04:13:47 <zzo38> (Or, recompile them for Linux; although doing so probably requires modifying the programs)
04:13:51 <zzo38> elliott_: Port 194
04:14:17 <zzo38> (Maybe I should specify it in my userpage?)
04:14:34 <Vorpal> yeah no one uses it, though it is allocated
04:14:49 <elliott_> zzo38: Incorrect! zzo38 uses it!
04:15:07 <elliott_> * cthulhu :Summoning user to IRC
04:15:07 <elliott_> * summon :Unable to SUMMON at this time
04:15:12 <elliott_> zzo38: What is it meant to do.
04:15:55 <zzo38> elliott_: You cannot summon too often.
04:15:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, presumably SUMMON from original RFC
04:16:30 <zzo38> (I made it so after SUMMON is used, it sets a timer and you cannot summon anymore until the timer is expired)
04:16:43 <zzo38> You can use the HELP SUMMON command for help, too.
04:17:29 <Vorpal> "The only solution we've found is to create a parent watchdog process to monitor the VM and restart it if it crashes." <-- erlang includes this
04:17:49 <Vorpal> and iirc the bug that it was killed too was fixed
04:19:30 <elliott_> zzo38: How was SUMMON CTHULHU broken?
04:21:17 <Vorpal> "Anything in Erlang using a GUI, like the debugger or process monitor, is hideous on Windows and pretty much unusable on OS X." <-- aka Tk.
04:21:34 <Vorpal> (been fixed since in many cases)
04:22:57 <Vorpal> (still I can live with tk, some people can't(
04:22:57 <coppro> Vorpal: No
04:23:01 <coppro> the VM /itself/ was failing
04:23:04 <Vorpal> s/(/)/
04:23:08 <Vorpal> coppro, on os x?
04:23:09 <coppro> the /entire VM/ needed to be restarted
04:23:14 <Vorpal> coppro, yes I know
04:23:22 <Vorpal> coppro, thus the heart process
04:23:29 <Vorpal> which has been fixed since
04:23:57 <coppro> ok, fixed since, but you made it sound like it was never the case
04:24:04 <Vorpal> coppro, no I didn't
04:24:13 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> "The only solution we've found is to create a parent watchdog process to monitor the VM and restart it if it crashes." <-- erlang includes this <Vorpal> and iirc the bug that it was killed too was fixed
04:24:23 <Vorpal> coppro, how was this not clear
04:25:55 <Vorpal> ..
04:36:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:48:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:49:22 <zzo38> I fixed it.
04:50:11 <elliott_> But I broke it.
04:50:30 <zzo38> elliott_: You did? Then *you* fix it this time.
04:50:39 <elliott_> Oh no
04:53:40 <zzo38> Now it should automatically do FLUSH when doing PART or QUIT
05:01:38 <Sgeo> Latest xkcd was meh
05:02:45 <zzo38> It seems Martin Pool's natural compare algorithm is no book or journal, how can I cite it in the bibliography, then?
05:07:03 <elliott_> zzo38: http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/ presumably
05:07:49 <zzo38> elliott_: I looked at that URL, I can see no information about citations there.
05:08:00 <elliott_> zzo38: Cite it as http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/.
05:08:05 <elliott_> Martin Pool, Natural Order String Comparison; http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/.
05:08:07 <elliott_> Or whatever.
05:10:13 <zzo38> OK I did like that.
05:11:12 <zzo38> Actually I made it slightly different to match the style of the citation for the random number algorithm.
05:12:46 <zzo38> But the other one has a date it says "Marsaglia (July 2003)" should this one have a date too?
05:14:17 <zzo38> Or is there no date?
05:17:15 <elliott_> zzo38: There is probably a date, but it doesn't mention one, so who knows.
05:19:34 <zzo38> I will just omit the date for now.
05:22:00 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:24:51 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyvJI2nch24
05:31:14 <Sgeo> My Cryptography & Computer Security professor: " When you speak of me, speak well."
05:37:48 <Sgeo> I have located the location of the music box
05:39:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:41:35 <j-invariant> Q: What's hot, chunky, and acts on a polygon? A: Dihedral soup.
05:41:44 <j-invariant> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DihedralGroup.html
05:41:59 <j-invariant> "Renteln and Dundes (2005) give the following (bad) mathematical joke about the dihedral group"
05:45:04 <Sgeo> Unless someone tells me what's so bad about Racket other than not being Scheme-like enough when it was called PLT Scheme, I am going to try it
05:45:46 <j-invariant> Sgeo: the only bad thing about racket is the stupid name
05:46:34 <Sgeo> IMO, the only stupid names are ungoogleable
05:47:18 <Sgeo> Fuck you, factor newspeak j c
05:47:26 <j-invariant> heh
05:49:31 <Sgeo> I've heard good things about Racket's module system
05:51:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
06:22:46 <Sgeo> I think I like Racket
06:22:57 <Sgeo> Although so far haven't seen anything that's Racket-specific
06:23:01 <coppro> lol
06:23:11 <Sgeo> Well, some stuff, but it's trivial and not too relevant to me liking it
06:24:15 <coppro> w/in 48
06:24:25 <j-invariant> the macro debugger is great
06:24:27 <j-invariant> Sgeo: try that out
06:24:53 <Sgeo> coppro, hm?
06:31:12 <Sgeo> The Racket's guide's length example isn't tail recursive
06:31:26 <Sgeo> They know *shrug*
06:35:24 <j-invariant> that's odd
06:36:12 <Sgeo> j-invariant, hmm?
06:36:26 <Sgeo> They have an example afterwards making a tail-recursive version
06:36:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:38:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:41:14 <Sgeo> o.O at Racket's infix convention
06:44:20 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:46:33 <Sgeo> "The number categories integer, rational, real (always rational), and complex are defined in the usual way"
06:46:36 <Sgeo> Uhhhhh
06:48:16 <quintopia> is there a known diagonal c/2 fuse in GoL?
06:54:35 <quintopia> oh, it seems there is...a very simple one too
06:59:32 <Sgeo> (if (void) #t #f)
06:59:49 <Sgeo> I should probably install Racket at some point
07:01:37 <Sgeo> I don't like the different types of hashes, tbh
07:17:30 <Sgeo> > (rational? (sin 1/2))
07:17:30 <Sgeo> #t
07:17:31 <Sgeo> > (sin 1/2)
07:17:31 <Sgeo> 0.479425538604203
07:17:31 <Sgeo> > (exact? (sin 1/2))
07:17:31 <Sgeo> #f
07:17:43 <Sgeo> Genius!
07:17:53 <j-invariant> is that sarcasm?
07:18:03 <Sgeo> Yes, it is
07:38:26 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: WOW "This statement is out and out slander; it is frankly sick."
07:40:29 <Sgeo> Hm?
07:46:47 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:08 <Sgeo> (struct dot (x y) #:mutable)
08:03:09 <Sgeo> Grr
08:03:25 <Sgeo> Syntactic forms are allowed to do that with keywords, but regular functions aren't?
08:20:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:29:15 <Sgeo> Hmm
08:29:23 <Sgeo> What if I want to use alternate PLaneTs?
08:43:12 -!- a1234567890 has joined.
08:46:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:46:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
08:49:42 <olsner> hmm, no elliott-variant here today?
08:50:32 <olsner> anyway, I recently discovered that pretty much every clever idea I had about my kernel/user interface already exists in L4
08:50:52 <olsner> I wonder if this means I'll be making an L4 clone, because that'd be a bit boring
08:55:07 <fizzie> Isn't it something like 08:30am in elliott-land? I think he's usually here later in the day.
08:56:55 <fizzie> Well, maybe more 09am, but still.
08:58:32 <olsner> right... but why log out of irc, he should just use it as a messaging service while away
09:07:34 <j-invariant> maybe he switches off his computer
09:11:35 <olsner> j-invariant: that's just absurd!
09:37:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:39:27 <oerjan> IS NO ABSURD AT ALL
09:41:49 <Ilari> Heh... 3G IMS (IP Multimedia System) is IPv6-only.
09:42:55 * Sgeo o.Os at Racklog
09:43:48 <Sgeo> I think Racket's goal is to consume all possible uses for any languages into itself.
09:44:07 <Sgeo> It has a LaTeX substitute, a Prolog substitute
09:46:24 <Sgeo> Was about to comment on Factor's presentation stuff, but Racket has that too
10:04:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:10:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:12:31 <ais523> hmm, an unusual side effect of a) being ill, and b) sleeping all day and waking all night
10:12:44 <ais523> is that you end up picking an incredibly dark theme for your operating system
10:12:53 <ais523> also, the 'a' key on my keyboard has become unreliable, which is really annoying
10:13:31 <ais523> but I think that's unrelated
10:19:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
10:19:50 <ais523> wow, I just got my first spam ever on my callforjudgement email account
10:20:05 <ais523> and it is completely full of apparently deliberate typos
10:20:21 <ais523> to the extent that they've embedded alphanumeric line noise in the middle of about half the words
10:20:33 <zzo38> ais523: Can you add spellcheck to the spam checking program?
10:21:00 <ais523> for a representative line, the spam is apparently from "Danial@kdelbhljaakgltdgkfleh.{SPF_D1}"
10:21:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
10:21:14 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, I fear it would cause too many false positives
10:21:36 <Sgeo> Why do spammers do that, exactly?
10:21:46 <ais523> to get round spam filters
10:21:56 <zzo38> I used to use email a long time ago. So, I think any message with tabs in the subject line is probably spam message.
10:21:56 <ais523> it seems that they no longer care if anyone actually reads the spam
10:22:20 <ais523> (likely, it's subcontracted; someone pays someone else to make sure spam is delivered, that person holds up the letter of the agreement)
10:23:01 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe that is how it works.
10:23:09 <ais523> hmm, this theme really shows up what a) has a hardcoded foreground /and/ background, b) hardcodes exactly one of the two
10:23:14 <ais523> white on white ftw
10:24:18 <zzo38> But now days if someone tries to send me spam message they will probably get error due to unreachable SMTP server.
10:24:40 <ais523> elliott for the logs: Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php is completely obviously a finite state machine
10:24:47 <ais523> all defined programs halt, thus only use a finite amount of memory
10:24:54 <ais523> and you can just run them to see how much they use
10:26:35 <zzo38> I guess that if you do not care about errors, any valid Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php program can run in a normal brainfuck interpreter.
10:28:19 <ais523> indeed
10:28:40 <ais523> also, I think elliott's trying to stop spambots editing the wiki by creating a legitimate page at every title they try to create
10:28:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:29:09 <zzo38> Some services require my email address to register, so in that case I can start the SMTP server and then when the message is received, I can stop the SMTP server. If they try to send spam message to me later, they will be unable to connect to the SMTP server to send a message!!
10:29:32 <j-invariant> zzo38: but what if the ywant to send you useful information about your account?
10:30:30 <zzo38> j-invariant: They can't. I don't want them to. If I need to know something about my account I will log in and see what happened.
10:31:12 <j-invariant> ok
10:31:31 <j-invariant> this is annoying my program is taking too long to compile
10:31:49 <j-invariant> it seems to be taking a massive effort to complie this single line of code
10:32:25 <zzo38> What program is that?
10:32:53 <j-invariant> it's just a definition that says given functions x -> a and x -> b we have x -> a*b
10:33:08 <ais523> it isn't written in (oklopol's) Clue, is it?
10:33:36 <ais523> (note, there are two esolangs called Clue, it's about time the wiki had a disambiguation page, but I don't think they're both up yet)
10:33:49 <j-invariant> no
10:35:40 <zzo38> Do you like to see natural sort algorithm (and the other algorithms)? See it at: http://sprunge.us/KiaC
10:38:32 <j-invariant> how long have you worked on this code?
10:39:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:44:36 <zzo38> I don't remember how long, but I do remember I have started some time this month (I don't remember what day though).
10:47:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:52:11 <zzo38> ais523: I cannot find oklopol's Clue?
10:53:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
10:56:46 <ais523> zzo38: it isn't on the wiki
10:56:49 <ais523> it was discussed in-channel a bit
10:57:04 <ais523> but basically, you give a bunch of input/output pairs and the interp bruteforces the actual program
10:57:29 <ais523> most of the interesting construction in the language is designing it so that that actually works in a plausible timeframe, and so that you always get the right program
10:57:37 <ais523> which is done by giving clues, thus the name of the language
10:59:54 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it should be added into the wiki
11:01:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:28:45 <Vorpal> morning
11:28:48 <Vorpal> hi ais523
11:39:20 <zzo38> Is the halting-problem always solvable of sub-Turing, if you have a Turing machine to solve it?
11:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if elliott joins and I'm not around, give him a clip on the ear from me.
11:40:30 <zzo38> What computational classes is halting problem always solvable for?
11:40:55 <j-invariant> zzo38: lots of languages where every program terminates - that's one class its' decidible for
11:41:00 <j-invariant> decidable*
11:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> He (or I assume it was he) left some TNT next to the door at Mt. Hoover.
11:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The door with a pressure plate.
11:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, the explosion didn't actually punch through the mountain.
11:42:39 <j-invariant> zzo38: I think there should be sub-Turing languages for which the halting problem is undedicable but I couldn't think of one yet
11:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's decidable for FSAs, isn't it?
11:45:40 <j-invariant> If a language has finite memory you can solve the halting problem by checking if it enters the same state twice
11:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Corollary: the halting problem is decidable for C.
11:57:09 <j-invariant> zzo38: I can't figure out an answer to that but very interesting question I hope someone knows
11:58:03 <j-invariant> it does seem like every language for which the halting problem is undecidable is turing equivalent though - I retract my guess from earler
12:00:56 <j-invariant> you can cheat the question (like having a language whose programs are mathematical propositions, if true they compute 1 if false they diverge -- so this language only computes the set {1} but it's halting problem is undecidable) but that's not a good answer
12:12:05 <zzo38> Is it possible to program a halting problem into a string of Typographical Number Theory?
12:13:39 -!- dbc has joined.
12:21:55 <j-invariant> I don't understand "Typographical Number Theory?
12:21:58 <j-invariant> I don't understand "Typographical Number Theory"
12:22:11 <j-invariant> it's like you take Peano Arithmetic and ... call it something else?
12:24:03 <j-invariant> zzo38: The set of positive values of 2y^4x + y^3x^2 - 2y^2x^3 - y^5 - yx^4 + 2y for positive integer inputs are exactly the fibonacci numbers
12:24:41 <j-invariant> zzo38: using more complicated polynomials (higher degree and more than 20 variables) you can encode any turing machines in this way
12:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously?
12:26:19 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: yeah it's Hilberts 10th, solved by Matiyasevic and Robinson and others
12:26:29 <j-invariant> ("solved" negatively)
12:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
12:39:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:40:43 * Phantom_Hoover laughs at some code.
12:41:00 <Sgeo> http://programming-puzzler.blogspot.com/2010/08/racket-vs-clojure.html
12:41:11 <Sgeo> I don't know enough about Racket to comment on those criticisms
12:41:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It's meant to populate Oolite with an ultra-rare type of ship; the probability seems to have been intended to be 0.02.
12:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But it does so 30 times, so the probability of seeing it is nearly 0.5.
12:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, one of the people on the Oolite board is from Hexham. I should tell elliott.
12:55:16 <Sgeo> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/steam.com
12:55:21 <Sgeo> Geniuses, the lot of them
13:07:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, zuh?
13:10:03 <Sgeo> They're acting as thought steam.com is trying to steal Steam passwords
13:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right.
13:43:02 <Sgeo> This episode of DS9 features: Braindead computer security, and medical pseudoscience
13:43:19 <Sgeo> "Humanoids only use a small portion of their brain"
13:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> God I hate that statement.
13:56:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so obviously false for so many reasons.
14:00:49 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if elliott joins and I'm not around, give him a clip on the ear from me. <-- sure, one paper clip pushed through the ear (I hope you planned to get earrings anyway!)
14:00:57 <Vorpal> ;)
14:02:30 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:03:41 -!- Sasha has joined.
14:07:27 <Sgeo> SG-1's treatment of this plot idea was better
14:09:33 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
14:13:50 <Sgeo> Although SG-1 also pulls the same "We only use a small portion of our brains" bullshit
14:28:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
14:33:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
14:39:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:47:26 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:49:08 <cheater99> Sgeo: what plot idea?
14:49:33 <cheater99> oh, with the ancients' learning machines
15:02:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
15:08:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:16:55 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: What makes it /obviously/ false?
15:17:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hi there. been on mc recently?
15:17:52 <Deewiant> Nah
15:17:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, someone (we haven't found out how) was careless in the TNT room
15:18:08 <Deewiant> Yes, I saw your messages about it earlier (yesterday?)
15:18:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, me and ehird helped rebuild things.
15:18:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, a few days ago. Yesterday we were working on the cube
15:18:33 <Deewiant> Right, it was the day before
15:18:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, took a few days to repair it, so I would say at least 4 days ago (point of discovery)
15:19:17 <Deewiant> 2010-12-27 04:56:04#esoteric: ( Vorpal) Deewiant, your wonders of the world looks blown up
15:19:28 <Vorpal> hm
15:19:31 <Vorpal> oh right
15:19:34 <Vorpal> middle of night
15:19:43 <Vorpal> I meant in "number of times I slept"-days
15:19:46 <Deewiant> I'd call that "early morning" already ;-)
15:20:03 <Deewiant> But yeah, 3 sleep-times ago
15:20:12 <Vorpal> Deewiant, or such
15:20:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway, we did not add back the TNT, and some signs in the cactus/reed/wheat section are missing (we didn't know how they were placed)
15:21:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but it blew out a large area. Even sand, gravel and clay on the opposite side
15:21:19 <Deewiant> Fair enough
15:21:45 <Vorpal> and actually the outer wall behind clay was missing
15:21:49 <Deewiant> I don't remember how exactly the signs were placed either, it doesn't exactly matter whether it's precisely the same ;-P
15:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, I was at a Boxing Day party when it happened, so that gives you a clue as to the date.
15:22:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no that was the day after iirc?
15:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I know you blamed me.
15:23:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, we /asked/ you if you had done it
15:23:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway, if you add TNT again that isn't behind glass and inside an obsidian room we will be rather disappointed (and also not help if it happens again)
15:24:12 <Deewiant> Did you rebuild it so that there's space for obsidian on all sides? ;-)
15:24:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well, you need more than that
15:24:58 <Deewiant> It's impossible to put on display in a room like that without leaving at least some direction open for destruction
15:24:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you need some sort of zig-zag walkway to it. So the blast doesn't get through the "door"
15:25:07 <Deewiant> Quite
15:25:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, actually just a zigzag walk works
15:25:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway, a single TNT behind glass might be acceptable
15:25:30 <Deewiant> Right, but that already takes up more space so it's a different kind of room.
15:25:35 <Vorpal> (like the pumpkin)
15:27:52 <Vorpal> what
15:27:55 <Vorpal> the TNT is there again
15:28:11 <Vorpal> oh wait
15:28:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yesterday the server crashed. Some chunks were reverted then it seems. Including that chunk
15:28:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, XD
15:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how fortunate.
15:30:28 <Deewiant> heh
15:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover> TOO FORTUNATE
15:30:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not really, since i had to re-empty a lava lake
15:30:47 <Vorpal> that also reverted
15:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, come see the Cube!
15:38:01 <Deewiant> Perhaps later
15:38:10 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: You also didn't answer my question
15:38:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right.
15:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> What makes what obviously false?
15:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, the 10% thing.
15:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, for one thing, something like that would almost certainly be evolved out quickly.
15:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, one of the reasons childbirth is more dangerous for humans than other animals is the much larger size of the baby's heade.
15:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> *head
15:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So you have a selection pressure towards smaller brains right there.
15:40:26 <Deewiant> Fair enough
15:40:35 <Deewiant> That issue wasn't obvious to me, though ;-)
15:48:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:03:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:29:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
16:31:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:40:00 <oerjan> argh the forum rss points all the links to voxelperfect.net even if i subscribe from esolangs.org
16:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, weird, but surely not that bad?
16:51:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: you didn't notice the discussion that voxelperfect.net has expired?
16:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> It has‽
16:52:00 <oerjan> i put it in the topic but _someone_ has changed it again
16:52:08 -!- ehird has joined.
16:52:24 <ehird> Guess what I'm not using.
16:52:48 <oerjan> ehird: deodorant?
16:52:49 <ehird> Oh, right, I don't use this nick any more, do I...\
16:52:52 -!- ehird has changed nick to elliott.
16:53:01 <elliott> oerjan: I will ignore that insult...THIS TIME.
16:53:06 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
16:53:06 -!- elliott has joined.
16:53:06 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
16:53:06 -!- elliott has joined.
16:53:15 <oerjan> :D
16:53:47 <elliott> Oh god, Sgeo's learning a new fucking language.
16:53:54 <elliott> Way to put a damper on my day.
16:54:06 <elliott> And liveblogging^WliveIRCing it too.
16:54:53 <elliott> 22:59:32 <Sgeo> (if (void) #t #f)
16:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: The result of that is undefined.
16:55:04 <elliott> (void) is not standard Scheme anyway.
16:55:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: turds at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | turds at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical turds at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:55:12 <elliott> (Okay, Racket might give a consistent value, but Racket has no standard.)
16:55:20 <elliott> oerjan: btw esolangs.org isn't owned by Graue
16:55:24 <elliott> as I discovered yesterday
16:55:41 <oerjan> elliott: huh?
16:55:56 <elliott> oerjan: what's huh
16:55:58 <elliott> I mean the domain itself
16:56:52 <oerjan> oh. i noticed yesterday but somehow got the domains switched in my mind
16:57:10 <oerjan> so i thought it was a different name because it had expired, or something
16:57:31 <oerjan> ok who the heck _is_ alan dipert
16:57:53 <elliott> oerjan: zis guy
16:57:57 <elliott> I googled him, he's just a random dude.
16:57:59 <elliott> of dudeness.
16:58:10 <elliott> with no apparent relation to our community except being strange (he has a fork of NCSA Mosaic on github)
16:58:42 <elliott> ais523: sorry, we're no longer hardware buddies.
16:59:11 <elliott> 02:24:40 <ais523> elliott for the logs: Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php is completely obviously a finite state machine
16:59:24 <elliott> ais523: are you SURE
16:59:25 <oerjan> elliott: that sounds disturbing given that that domain is about to expire soon as well
16:59:31 <elliott> ais523: there are programs that use N bytes of memory for all N
16:59:37 <elliott> oerjan: no, because it was last renewed in 2009
16:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, why is Sgeo learning a language so bad?
16:59:44 <elliott> oerjan: we have no reason to suspect he doesn't feel like renewing it
16:59:53 <oerjan> i sure hope _someone_ knows him
16:59:55 <elliott> Vorpal: because he thinks he's smarter than language designers and complains about stupid shit
17:00:03 <elliott> oerjan: well email the bastard :)
17:00:13 <elliott> 02:28:40 <ais523> also, I think elliott's trying to stop spambots editing the wiki by creating a legitimate page at every title they try to create
17:00:22 <elliott> ais523: no, I'm trying to make it hard on the wiki sysops to protect talk pages
17:00:28 <elliott> I may have been a Discordian in another life
17:00:34 <Vorpal> elliott, "stupid shit" is a bit ambiguous here. "Stupid things in the language" vs. "stupid complaints"
17:00:35 <oerjan> elliott: well i already emailed graue, i'll wait for an answer
17:00:41 <elliott> Vorpal: latter
17:00:45 <Vorpal> ah
17:01:18 <nooga> what why
17:01:25 <elliott> nooga: why what
17:02:59 <elliott> 03:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> He (or I assume it was he) left some TNT next to the door at Mt. Hoover. 03:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The door with a pressure plate. 03:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, the explosion didn't actually punch through the mountain.
17:03:01 <elliott> wait, what?
17:03:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't know pressure plates activated TNT
17:03:14 <elliott> the TNT has been there for a day or two, t'was an accident; I was planning to remove it safely
17:04:17 <elliott> 04:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, one of the people on the Oolite board is from Hexham. I should tell elliott.
17:04:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Are they competent? :p
17:04:51 <Vorpal> lag spikes now
17:04:55 * Vorpal looks at ineiros
17:05:09 <Vorpal> been fine for hours
17:05:45 <elliott> Vorpal: he won't stop skype just for MC so why bother mentioning it?
17:05:49 <elliott> hmm I should redownload Minecraft
17:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott, redownload?
17:06:13 <elliott> Vorpal: yes FINALLY SOMEONE TAKES MY BAIT.
17:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, competent in which sense?
17:06:27 <Vorpal> elliott, why *re*-download
17:06:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Can e program? If not, can e form correctly-spelled and punctuated sentences that express coherent thoughts?
17:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, he had about 3 posts.
17:06:50 <elliott> Vorpal: 'CUZ I DON'T HAVE IT ON MY SHINY NEW LAPTOP DUH
17:06:58 <elliott> ^ how did it take you that long to fall into that trap
17:06:59 <elliott> sheesh
17:06:59 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, not much of a bait
17:07:05 <elliott> Vorpal: SHUT UP
17:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott, but first you must try out dwarf fortress
17:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and report FPS
17:07:18 <elliott> evidently in Apple Time, 31st means 29th
17:07:26 <elliott> I am not complaining
17:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, wait, he has 418 posts.
17:07:40 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, not until I get an IRC client :-P
17:08:15 <oerjan> elliott waiting with baited breath
17:08:22 <ineiros> Hello.
17:08:25 <elliott> oerjan: die in a fire :}
17:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I have absolutely no idea about him other than that he is from Hexham and his punctuation and spelling are good
17:08:34 <elliott> I wonder if iChat supports MSN now.
17:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, going to run linux to it. Or will you live in the flash-hating vendor-lockin closed apple world (right, so that product is a normal laptop, but still)
17:08:43 <ineiros> Vorpal: Sorry, need to download Ubuntu. Stat!
17:08:45 <elliott> NOPE
17:08:50 <oerjan> elliott: how rude.
17:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> ineiros, incidentally!
17:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> We are building the cube!
17:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll put Linux on it sometime
17:09:12 <Vorpal> ineiros, ah, about how long will it take do you think?
17:09:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: not without me I hope!
17:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Which requires excavating an approximately 128x128x64 cuboid!
17:09:28 <elliott> don't work on the cube without me to supervise ;x
17:09:35 <elliott> none of you UNDERSTAND my ARCHITECTURE
17:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> So can we finally have a TNT kit?
17:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, surely we can drain without you?
17:09:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it is rather trivial for the shell actually :P
17:10:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Okay fine.
17:10:11 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is the interior floors, which I leave to you
17:10:13 <elliott> And explode too.
17:10:17 <elliott> But no expanding the glass wall! :p
17:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> Anyway, TNT kit! ineiros, we beseech you!
17:11:10 <Vorpal> that is the wrong method
17:11:16 <ineiros> elliott: The stacks will be less available if I blow up the server.
17:11:17 <Vorpal> now you are just making it /less/ likely
17:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you're demoted to HHI janitor
17:11:30 <elliott> ineiros: I'LL BLOW UP YOUR FAMILY
17:11:35 <Vorpal> ...
17:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> And now you're promoted to landscape architect.
17:11:45 <elliott> AND YOUR DOG
17:11:52 <ineiros> I'll try to get to your TNT needs today.
17:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Your first job is to ment the
17:11:57 <elliott> See?
17:11:57 <Vorpal> elliott, this is exactly the opposite of what you need to tell him
17:12:02 <elliott> I'm very convincing.
17:12:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Worked, didn't it?
17:12:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> *mend the crater outside the door of the research facility.
17:12:10 <ineiros> elliott: No. :)
17:12:18 <elliott> ineiros: Poor Woof.
17:12:25 <elliott> I only wish he did not have to die.
17:12:26 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, I think you didn't manage to make him change opinion from yesterday /yet/
17:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Then you will be transmoted to builder, and your job will be to rebuild the mouth of the tunnel to the research facility.
17:13:14 <elliott> Heh ... YouTube is one of the default sites in the top-sites-Safari-gallery thing ... but this thing doesn't ship with Flash.
17:13:18 <Vorpal> ineiros, so... any idea how long this download might take? 10 minutes? half an hour? more?
17:13:30 <ineiros> 40 seconds.
17:13:33 <elliott> And indeed clicking on videos says "lol no flash"
17:13:36 <elliott> Vorpal: You are way impatient.
17:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> You shall then be demoted to joiner, and your job will be to fit a new door into the research facility.
17:13:38 <Vorpal> ineiros, ah
17:13:38 <elliott> Way so.
17:13:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Can I be demoted to turd?
17:13:56 <Vorpal> elliott, no, just wondered if I should log off and do something else, or just wait a few minutes
17:14:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> After you've done all that.
17:14:07 <Mathnerd314> irc question: can you "emote", like /me but with other people appearing to do the action?
17:14:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: um, no.
17:14:25 <elliott> and that sounds horrible.
17:14:53 <Mathnerd314> it'd have something like (from <person>) at the end of it
17:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> <Mathnerd314> Can you make your own messages look like someone else's?
17:16:45 <elliott> * Mathnerd314 takes a bike (from elliott)
17:16:48 <elliott> You monster.
17:16:53 * nooga is playing OpenTyrian
17:17:02 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: but with tags
17:17:03 <nooga> awful
17:17:12 <elliott> TODO: Get IRC, IM clients; install YouTube5; get Minecraft.
17:17:23 <elliott> Put up mandatory shrine to Steve Jobs.
17:17:23 <Mathnerd314> elliott: prefix it, then.
17:17:25 <Mathnerd314> (from elliott) * Mathnerd314 takes a bike
17:17:42 <nooga> elliott: new Mac?
17:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, the iPhone has no backquote symbol, does it?
17:17:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: (from elliott) * Mathnerd314 took / a $big (bicycle) / as he `shook
17:18:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: This is an iPhone?
17:18:04 <elliott> But no, it has no backtick indeed.
17:18:17 <elliott> That's why I have that command to output ` followed by something, in EgoBot.
17:18:20 <elliott> I forget the name.
17:18:21 <elliott> nooga: Yes.
17:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> Right, so there's a simple, foolproof way of securing WiFi networks against iPhones?
17:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> !he echo I think it was this...
17:18:55 <elliott> nooga: MacBook Air, 2.1 GHz, 4 GiB, 256 GiB SSD, 13" 1440x900.
17:18:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Brilliant.
17:19:01 <EgoBot> `echo I think it was this...
17:19:13 <HackEgo> I think it was this...
17:19:24 <elliott> <HackEgo> Grmbl, in the MORNING, get me out of bed and sdjdiofgj
17:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I'd do it but half my family have iPhones now and they'd be nasty to me if I did so.
17:19:47 <nooga> elliott: blargh
17:19:57 <nooga> elliott: Airs are pointless but pretty
17:20:26 <elliott> nooga: correction -- they /used/ to be pointless.
17:20:36 <nooga> um
17:20:38 <elliott> Now they have respectable specifications, the fastest SSD of the macs, and they have actual fucking ports on the side.
17:20:42 <elliott> (Since late 2010.)
17:20:54 <nooga> i would change my mind if i had one :D
17:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, why do you have this now?
17:21:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so, the answer is: no, irc doesn't have that?
17:21:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I said no right at the start.
17:21:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Dunno. I think I'll give up all my material possessions.
17:22:00 <elliott> Now do I download Minecraft or LimeChat first? OH THE DILEMMA
17:22:08 <elliott> OH THE DALAI LLAMA
17:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I mean, did you actually ask for one?
17:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Or go about purchasing one?
17:23:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I would not own this today if not for a swift but damaging onset of temporary insanity.
17:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> Did you see it in a shop and become overwhelmed by lust?
17:24:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No. Steve Jobs kidnapped me and did unspeakable things.
17:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sell the story to the Sun.
17:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> You'll make MILLIONS
17:25:17 <elliott> This trackpad is ridiculously huge.
17:25:26 <oerjan> elliott: *LAMA
17:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't it include the buttons?
17:25:34 <elliott> It's bigger than my palm.
17:25:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The whole thing is a button.
17:25:39 <elliott> oerjan: Intentional.
17:25:53 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a gigantic glass touchpad that presses down :-P
17:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you clearly have a tiny palm.
17:26:13 <elliott> Obviously in future the keyboard will be replaced by a GIGANTIC touchpad.
17:26:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I do.
17:26:19 <elliott> I am a rather tiny person.
17:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, obviously malnutrition due to the Harrying of the North.
17:27:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Indeed.
17:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> I am told that this is the reason I am taller than my entire extended family, although I am suspicious of this.
17:28:15 <elliott> "The windows themselves contain some kind of unbreakable glass-like substance, probably glass."
17:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> Which windows?
17:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Um, context is long and I've already closed the tab.
17:29:16 <elliott> Safari thinks this web chat window is titled "Yahoo!".
17:29:19 <elliott> I am not sure why.
17:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> Huh?
17:31:11 <nooga> my eyes and brain hurt
17:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> In other news, have you finished your landscape-architect-builder-joinerial duties?
17:31:17 <nooga> from playing tyrian
17:31:25 <cheater99> lol tyrian
17:31:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No.
17:31:46 <elliott> Demote me to rock.
17:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, once you've moved your way down the rank!
17:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> *ranks
17:32:14 <elliott> Now to Software Update.
17:32:15 <nooga> we should invent a game
17:32:42 <nooga> for ourselves and then introdouce a score table
17:33:05 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Page closed).
17:33:07 <Vorpal> ineiros, any idea how long this second download might take? Roughly
17:33:55 <variable> in Haskel is there a difference between take 3 [1..20] or just [1..3] ---> since things are evaluated lazily?
17:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, no.
17:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> There isn't.
17:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> !haskell take 3 [1..]
17:36:19 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, I mean - internally Haskel doesn't create the [1..20] list first
17:36:23 <EgoBot> [1,2,3]
17:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, that's what that example was for.
17:36:32 <variable> I know the output is the same
17:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> [1..] is an infinitely long list.
17:36:47 <variable> oh woops
17:36:50 * variable missed the ..
17:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> But the discarded elements aren't calculated at all.
17:36:58 <variable> I missed that there wasn't an end
17:37:02 <variable> ok cool
17:37:06 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, thanks
17:39:31 -!- elliott has joined.
17:39:41 <elliott> Oh wow, LimeChat's defualt theme is beyond ugly.
17:39:42 <elliott> *default
17:39:47 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
17:39:47 -!- elliott has joined.
17:43:38 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: there are programs that use N bytes of memory for all N <--- I mean, any given program is an FSM, just like a lang that asked you to declare memory use in advance would be
17:43:46 <elliott> right
17:44:03 <elliott> brb
17:44:04 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:44:38 -!- elliott has joined.
17:44:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest12014.
17:44:54 <Guest12014> hi
17:44:57 <Guest12014> wtf @ my name
17:45:26 <ais523> Guest12014: I suspect you aren't identified, and got automatically kicked to a different nick as a result
17:45:28 <Guest12014> indeed
17:46:24 <variable> Guest12014, if the owner of your nick chose "secure" you have 30 seconds to provide a password
17:46:32 <variable> if they chose immediate you have no time
17:46:38 <variable> /ns help
17:46:41 <Guest12014> Indeed.
17:46:43 <Guest12014> I set it like that. :)
17:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, he is the owner of his own nick.
17:46:49 <Guest12014> But I think it's 30 seconds for me.
17:47:20 -!- Guest12014 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:48:49 <variable> let fizzBuzz xs = [ if mod x 3 && mod x 5 then "fizzbuzz" else if mod x 3 then "fizz" else if mod x 5 then "buzz" else x | x <- [1..] ]
17:48:55 <variable> Couldn't match expected type `[Char]' against inferred type `Bool' -> so I get
17:49:03 <variable> why I can't mix strings and ints
17:49:08 <variable> but where did the bool come from ?
17:49:13 -!- dfj_ has joined.
17:49:25 <dfj_> Why is elliott "temporarily unavailable"?
17:49:26 <dfj_> My nick.
17:50:22 <variable> dfj_, /ns recover I think
17:50:30 <dfj_> ah
17:50:43 <dfj_> "invalid command" so, no
17:51:02 <dfj_> it's RELEASE
17:51:04 <variable> or release
17:51:08 <variable> yeah
17:51:08 -!- dfj_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:51:15 -!- elliott has joined.
17:51:17 <elliott> now it works
17:51:18 <variable> wb
17:51:22 <elliott> :)
17:51:41 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest77998.
17:51:44 <variable> let fizzBuzz xs = [ if mod x 3 && mod x 5 then "fizzbuzz" else if mod x 3 then "fizz" else if mod x 5 then "buzz" else x | x <- [1..] ]
17:51:50 <variable> :-\
17:51:57 <variable> or not Guest77998
17:52:08 <Guest77998> what.
17:52:25 <Guest77998> variable: erm mod doesn't return a boolean does it
17:52:36 <variable> oh righ
17:52:55 <Guest77998> indeed not
17:52:59 <Guest77998> variable: i'd do something like
17:53:18 <Guest77998> wait nm
17:53:19 <variable> divBy x y = mod x y == 0
17:53:33 <Guest77998> variable: I'd call that divides
17:53:34 <Guest77998> then you could say
17:53:41 <Guest77998> x `divides` 3
17:53:42 <Guest77998> er wait
17:53:45 <Guest77998> you'd want to swap the arguments
17:53:47 <oerjan> !echo hi
17:53:47 <EgoBot> hi
17:53:52 <variable> divisibleBy
17:53:57 <variable> !echo !echo hi
17:53:58 <EgoBot> !echo hi
17:54:00 <variable> :\
17:55:45 <oerjan> variable: case gcd x 15 of 15 -> "fizzbuzz" ; 3 -> "fizz" ; 5 -> "buzz ; 1 -> show x >:)
17:56:04 <Guest77998> oerjan: heh nice
17:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, for maximum Haskell credit, write divBy point-free.
17:56:15 <Guest77998> Phantom_Hoover_: for maximum haskell credit write EVERYTHING point free
17:56:16 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, point free ?
17:56:21 <Guest77998> variable: you don't want to know.
17:56:24 <variable> Guest77998, lie
17:56:25 <Guest77998> Phantom_Hoover_: you don't want to tell him.
17:56:34 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, explain
17:56:36 <variable> now
17:56:43 <Guest77998> variable: Point free is where you write things using the function composition operator and other combinators, and don't name any arguments to the function.
17:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, in simple terms, a function f is defined point-free if it's "f =" rather than "f <args> =".
17:57:21 <Guest77998> Guest77998: @pl \x y -> mod x y == 0
17:57:21 <Guest77998> lambdabot: flip flip 0 . ((==) .) . mod
17:57:25 <Guest77998> variable: So you could say
17:57:31 <Guest77998> dividesBy = flip flip 0 . ((==) .) . mod
17:57:32 <Guest77998> instead.
17:57:51 <Guest77998> Note: Point-free style often improves code concision and readability. But not in this case.
17:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think that code may not be the best pl-ing of that.
17:57:55 <Guest77998> Also lambdabot is a bit stupid about it.
17:57:58 <Guest77998> Indeed.
17:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's (==0) . mod n
17:58:20 <variable> ah
17:58:23 <variable> that makes sense
17:59:02 <variable> Prelude> let divisbleBy (==0) . mod n
17:59:02 <variable> <interactive>:1:28: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
17:59:07 <Guest77998> variable: you forg =
17:59:09 <Guest77998> *forgot =
17:59:11 <variable> oh woops
17:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> So I think it'd be ((==0).) . mod.
18:00:06 <variable> Prelude> let divisbleBy = ((==0).) . mod.
18:00:06 <variable> <interactive>:1:32: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> !haskell (((==0).) . mod) 2 4
18:00:14 <EgoBot> False
18:00:24 <variable> False
18:00:38 <variable> !haskell [1..]
18:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> !haskell (((==0).) . mod) 4 2
18:01:01 <variable> True :-}
18:01:03 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120,121,122,123,124,125,126,127,128,129,130,131,132,133,134,135,136,137,138,139,140,141,142,143,1
18:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, !haskell is just GHCi.
18:01:17 <variable> very funny DCC chat
18:01:18 <Vorpal> bbl food
18:01:29 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, I noticed
18:01:31 <Guest77998> variable: yeah it DCC chats to give you what it flooded
18:02:00 <variable> Guest77998, I could use that to flood its connections - just keep on doing [1..]
18:02:02 <variable> :-\
18:02:05 <Guest77998> so apparently Steve Jobs needs a picture of me, I swear to god that it wouldn't let me use the computer until I let it take a photo of me
18:02:18 <Guest77998> variable: It's too slow for you to be able to flood it, my friend.
18:02:22 <Guest77998> variable: And the first line would still go to IRC.
18:02:28 <Guest77998> Well, sometimes it doesn't. But whatever.
18:02:43 <variable> either way
18:02:51 <variable> "\ntest"
18:03:00 <variable> !haskell "\ntest"
18:03:02 <EgoBot> "\ntest"
18:03:24 <oerjan> variable: actually !haskell is both ghci and ghc, it tries them in sequence. this is sometimes confusing when you get an error message (only the last one is given)
18:03:31 <Guest77998> !haskell putStrLn "\ntest"
18:03:31 <variable> !haskell "QUOTE MSG NICKSERV DROP"
18:03:37 <variable> :-}
18:03:49 <Guest77998> anyway anyone who tried to hold up the bots just gets a ban :-P
18:03:52 <oerjan> !echo hi
18:03:53 <EgoBot> hi
18:04:02 <variable> "!echo hi"
18:04:09 <variable> Guest77998, could I try something this once?
18:04:10 <oerjan> variable: also EgoBot sometimes times out :(
18:04:18 <Guest77998> variable: sure. just don't do it all night :D
18:04:28 <variable> Guest77998, its afternoon - not night :-}
18:04:46 <Guest77998> variable: yes, but it'll be night some day!
18:04:52 <Guest77998> also it's 18:04, so, about midday
18:05:00 <variable> are there any other bots on this channel?
18:05:06 <Guest77998> hmm it's 13:00 in new york, maybe i'm on american time
18:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> `echo Me!
18:05:08 <HackEgo> Me!
18:05:11 <Guest77998> variable: yes, and also fungot
18:05:11 <fungot> Guest77998: specs and examples of feather btw, that argument is fundamentally unscientific :) thanks
18:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> ^echo Me!
18:05:13 <fungot> Me! Me!
18:05:15 <Guest77998> written in befunge, as you probably know
18:05:19 <variable> Guest77998, my goal: create a poly command between EgoBot and HackEgo :-}
18:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> fungot is the more attention-seeking of the two.
18:05:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: output, and with its own set of variables
18:05:32 <variable> that makes them keep on looping
18:05:35 <Guest77998> variable: fungot filters other bots, BTW
18:05:35 <fungot> Guest77998: i know quitting high school was about creating a procedure from itself) with a generic object system relies on _static_ types.
18:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, do you think we haven't thought of that?
18:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> ^ignore
18:05:45 <Guest77998> `echo !echo hi
18:05:46 <HackEgo> !echo hi
18:05:55 <Guest77998> `run echo '!sh echo hi'
18:05:57 <HackEgo> !sh echo hi
18:06:15 <Guest77998> `run echo "!sh echo '`run happy'"
18:06:15 <HackEgo> No output.
18:06:19 <Guest77998> what
18:06:19 <Guest77998> `run echo "!sh echo '`run happy'"
18:06:20 <HackEgo> No output.
18:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> HackEgo pays attention to EgoBot, though.
18:06:22 <Guest77998> what
18:06:22 <variable> meh - back to learn you a haskel
18:06:26 <Guest77998> `run echo "!sh echo '\`run happy'"
18:06:26 <HackEgo> !sh echo '`run happy'
18:06:32 <Guest77998> ah
18:06:47 <Guest77998> `run echo "!sh echo '\`run happy'"
18:06:48 <HackEgo> !sh echo '`run happy'
18:06:51 * Phantom_Hoover_ curses
18:06:52 <Guest77998> what
18:06:57 <Guest77998> ok EgoBot ignores HackEgo
18:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> I spent about half an hour flying around in Oolite, only to realise that I hadn't actually picked up the passenger I was meant to be ferrying.
18:07:34 <Guest77998> Phantom_Hoover_: :-D
18:07:40 <variable> No instance for (Show (t -> [[Char]]))
18:07:41 <oerjan> variable: mutual bot quines is a tradition in this channel, so most bots eventually is set to ignore the others
18:07:42 <variable> :-\
18:07:55 <oerjan> *are
18:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Guest77998, the worst part is that I've done this several times before.
18:08:38 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:08:52 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, heh
18:09:38 <oerjan> variable: you're probably missing a function argument, as that usually implies you are trying to print a function
18:09:45 <variable> let fizzBuzz = [ if divisbleBy x 3 && divisbleBy x 5 then "fizzbuzz" else if divisbleBy x 3 then "fizz" else if divisbleBy x 5 then "buzz" else "#" | x <- [1..] ]
18:10:02 <variable> oerjan, oh wait - I had an extra "xs"
18:10:07 <variable> thanks
18:10:31 <variable> but now I don't get *any* fizzbuzz
18:10:33 <oerjan> Show is the type class for stuff that is printed
18:10:46 <variable> ["#","#","fizz","#","buzz","fizz","#","#","fizz","buzz","#","fizz","#","#","fizzbuzz","#","#","fizz","#","buzz"]
18:11:41 <variable> oh I lied
18:11:46 * variable missed the 10th one
18:11:52 * variable is an idiot
18:11:55 <variable> *12
18:11:59 * variable is still an idiot
18:11:59 <Guest77998> variable: don't you mean "else show x"? :)
18:12:02 <Guest77998> to get the numbers in there
18:12:13 <variable> Guest77998, no - I wanted the "#" for now
18:12:16 <Guest77998> full fizzbuzz program:
18:12:24 <Guest77998> main = mapM_ putStrLn [ if divisbleBy x 3 && divisbleBy x 5 then "fizzbuzz" else if divisbleBy x 3 then "fizz" else if divisbleBy x 5 then "buzz" else show x | x <- [1..] ]
18:12:30 <Guest77998> compilable with ghc :-)
18:12:32 <Guest77998> unless i fucked up
18:12:37 <Guest77998> well
18:12:41 <Guest77998> you need divisibleBy obviously
18:13:05 <variable> Guest77998, I didn't know about show so using "#" stood in until I could figure out what i needed for int->string
18:13:10 * Guest77998 redownloads Minecraft. ah sweet addiction...
18:13:12 <Guest77998> variable: right :-)
18:13:45 <variable> regarding minecraft: I was told not to play it while I still plan on doing something productive with my life
18:14:04 <oerjan> nested ifs are sort of bad style in haskell. although they may be awkward to avoid inside a list comprehension...
18:14:04 <Guest77998> variable: I concur absolutely ... and now to get to work on this 128x128x128 glass cube lit by lava
18:14:17 <Guest77998> oerjan: i decided not to pick on his style until he's more proficient >:)
18:14:25 <oerjan> O KAY
18:14:30 <variable> oerjan, when is the "haskellian" way to do things
18:14:40 <oerjan> variable: pattern guards
18:14:44 <variable> Guest77998, please pick on my style - I don't want to get into bad habbits
18:14:51 * variable googles pattern guards
18:14:57 <Guest77998> variable: But you already have -- a life of imperative programming :-)
18:15:13 <variable> Guest77998, nothing is wrong with imperative programming for certain types of tasks....
18:15:34 <Guest77998> variable: Yes there is. :-) (I am a bit of a zealot.)
18:15:44 <Guest77998> variable: But hey, I never denied that.
18:16:01 <Guest77998> variable: Haskell lets you write as much imperative code as you want, that's what "IO" and the do statement is for.
18:16:13 <Guest77998> I just don't think all of a program should be imperative, which is what most languages make you do :-)
18:18:02 <oerjan> variable: if you just wanted to handle a single x you could use pattern guards as follows: fizzBuzz x | divisbleBy x 3 && divisbleBy x 5 = "fizzbuzz" | divisbleBy x 3 = "fizz" | divisbleBy x 5 = "buzz" | otherwise = show x
18:18:40 <variable> oerjan, that code looks clearer to me - but I'm not exactly sure of what it's doing
18:19:01 <variable> is it similar to a "switch" in that it looks for the first pattern that matches?
18:19:05 <oerjan> variable: well one-line formatting doesn't exactly help
18:20:15 <variable> <interactive>:1:5: parse error on input `|'
18:20:17 <oerjan> but the parts between | and following = are the guards. the first guard for a pattern which is True is selected
18:20:35 <oerjan> variable: oh and that's a function definition, so you need to put let in front in ghci
18:20:40 <variable> I did
18:20:46 <variable> oh wait
18:20:49 <variable> I didn't
18:20:51 * variable slaps self
18:23:26 <variable> oerjan, what is "otherwise"
18:23:36 <variable> it always returns True ?
18:24:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, otherwise is a keyword for the default if no pattern matches.
18:24:59 <variable> Haskel cares about whitespace?
18:25:04 <variable> fizzbuzz.hs:2:0: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:25:06 <variable> ?
18:26:30 <variable> http://notepad.cc/vefina87 -> how could this be formatted nicely - but still be compilable under ghc ?
18:27:10 <oerjan> variable: otherwise = True, it's just defined for convenience to make pattern guards look nice :D
18:27:34 <variable> oerjan, is there some way to print out what functions are defined as ?
18:27:56 <Guest77998> variable: yes, Haskell cares about whitespace
18:28:02 <Guest77998> variable: you can always use explicit bracing instead though
18:28:04 <Guest77998> e.g.
18:28:14 <Guest77998> main = do foo
18:28:16 <Guest77998> bar
18:28:16 <oerjan> variable: i see nothing in that paste that should be a syntax error
18:28:17 <Guest77998> is the same as
18:28:21 <Guest77998> main = do { foo; bar }
18:28:54 <oerjan> | actually doesn't need to be lined up, although it looks better if it is.
18:29:11 <variable> oerjan, fizzbuzz.hs:2:0: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:29:20 <Guest77998> variable: try a nother new line before "fb x"?
18:29:23 <Guest77998> *another
18:29:24 <oerjan> variable: oh, you have a missing ) in the first line
18:29:29 <Guest77998> that shouldn't do anything, but, it's a hunch- aaah
18:29:30 <Guest77998> never mind
18:29:32 <Guest77998> what oerjan said
18:29:32 <Guest77998> brb
18:29:33 -!- Guest77998 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:29:57 -!- sdfjsdf has joined.
18:30:04 -!- sdfjsdf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:30:10 -!- elliott has joined.
18:30:10 <oerjan> or equivalently, an ( more than necessary
18:30:16 <elliott> variable: try
18:30:23 <elliott> divisibleBy = ((==0) .) mod
18:30:24 <variable> oerjan, I got it
18:30:24 <elliott> erm
18:30:28 <elliott> divisibleBy = ((==0) .) . mod
18:30:29 <variable> now I need to define main :-}
18:30:41 <elliott> hehe
18:30:58 <elliott> variable: careful -- that's MONAD TERRITORY! (note: this is completely irrelevant and you don't need to think about it at all to use main)
18:31:23 <variable> monad ?
18:31:38 <variable> elliott, explain
18:31:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, that is a whole can of worms you do not want to get into right now.
18:31:58 * variable googles
18:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Get a good grasp of the basics, particularly the type system, first.
18:32:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:32:02 <elliott> variable: It's a thing from category theory. LYAH explains it in some chapters' times.
18:32:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> noooooo!
18:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> Don't do that!
18:32:14 <elliott> variable: Seriously, no, people are scared of monads for no reason.
18:32:20 <elliott> They think it makes Haskell impossible to use.
18:32:24 <elliott> They're silly. :p
18:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> You'll get endless analogies of how monads = burritos which are far more confusing than the simple definition!
18:32:49 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, elliott I really don't like to delay learning new things - but I'll go in order of LYAH
18:33:26 <elliott> variable: You can't learn all of Haskell at once, trust me :)
18:34:18 <variable> now: how could fb be written point freE?
18:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, don't bother.
18:34:36 <elliott> variable: oh man, i don't even know
18:34:37 <elliott> nobod
18:34:38 <elliott> y
18:34:40 <elliott> would do that :)
18:34:47 <oerjan> variable: ouch, it is rather hard to use pointfree and pattern guards simultaneously
18:35:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Point-free is nice and elegant when you have simple functions which simply chain other functions togetheer.
18:35:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> *together
18:35:10 <variable> oerjan, alright
18:35:15 <oerjan> variable: pointfree is best for things that follow a pipelined path without branching
18:35:19 <variable> main = [ fb x | x <- [ 1..20] ] -> what's wrong with this?
18:35:29 <elliott> variable: main would result in a list
18:35:32 <elliott> it has to result in an IO action
18:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, type signatures don't match.
18:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> fb x :: [Int]
18:35:44 <oerjan> variable: main mus... right
18:35:48 <elliott> variable: try this
18:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> main :: IO ()
18:35:52 <variable> ok
18:35:57 <oerjan> variable: just put a print after the =
18:36:01 <variable> so - I tried "show" - but that didn't wor
18:36:01 <elliott> yeah
18:36:09 <elliott> variable: show :: (Show a) => a -> String
18:36:10 <elliott> variable: but print is
18:36:15 <elliott> print :: (Show a) => a -> IO ()
18:36:18 <elliott> main is :: IO ()
18:36:20 <elliott> read as:
18:36:24 <elliott> an IO action giving no result
18:36:27 <elliott> there's also
18:36:31 <elliott> getChar :: IO Char
18:36:32 <elliott> read as:
18:36:35 <elliott> an IO action giving a character
18:36:37 <elliott> variable: see? :)
18:36:40 <variable> elliott, is there some way to get ghci to print those declarations out?
18:36:48 <oerjan> i believe it is technically legal for main to be any IO a
18:36:49 <elliott> variable: :t foo
18:36:51 <variable> ie - can I print what a function is defined at as?
18:36:53 <elliott> gives the type of foo
18:36:58 <variable> elliott, oh - cool
18:37:11 <oerjan> but the a will nearly always be () in practice
18:37:13 <variable> main = print [ fb x | x <- [ 1..20] ] -> perfect
18:37:35 <oerjan> variable: i don't think ghci saves the source anywhere
18:37:38 <elliott> variable: that'll show as
18:37:42 <elliott> ["foo","..."]
18:37:44 <elliott> variable: you might want
18:37:46 <variable> elliott, I mean - if I defined "blah" 1000 lines up there is no way to view the source
18:37:48 <oerjan> it's directly compiled
18:37:53 <elliott> main = mapM_ putStrLn [fb x | x <- [1..20]]
18:38:14 <elliott> variable: nah, i don't think that's stored :)
18:38:19 <elliott> put good stuff in a file
18:38:25 <oerjan> variable: usually you want to do most definitions in a file with an editor, and just reload it after major changes
18:38:34 <variable> oerjan, I do that - just curious
18:38:45 <elliott> yeah, you can only define types in a file too
18:38:57 <oerjan> variable: also reloading a file into ghci wipes out everything else
18:39:06 <oerjan> i think
18:39:14 <variable> http://pastebin.com/ecJmXtWw --> my first haskel program ;-}
18:39:42 <elliott> variable: now try putting
18:39:46 <elliott> fb :: Int -> String
18:39:49 <elliott> before fb :p
18:40:20 <variable> because that defines the type of fb to only take an int and return a string
18:40:45 <variable> divisbleBy :: Int -> Int as well ?
18:41:24 <elliott> variable: no
18:41:32 <elliott> variable: it results in a boolean :)
18:41:39 <variable> oh right
18:41:48 * variable made the inverse mistake before
18:42:08 <variable> and capital letters indicate types
18:42:12 <variable> so it would be Boolean ?
18:43:32 <variable> elliott, it works with the one for fb but not the one for divisibleBy - with Bool as the type (:t True)
18:43:38 <oerjan> variable: actually capital letters also indicate other things, but type names are one of them
18:44:18 <elliott> variable: no, Bool isn't the type
18:44:21 <oerjan> variable: common hint: use :t fb to find out what ghci thinks the type should be
18:44:23 <elliott> that means divisibleBy would either be True or False
18:44:26 <elliott> variable: it's Int -> Bool
18:44:34 <variable> I did that
18:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: that'll show Num which is just confusing right now :)
18:44:39 <elliott> variable: huh. what error?
18:44:40 <oerjan> oh right
18:45:06 <oerjan> anyway shouldn't it be Int -> Int -> Bool
18:45:19 <elliott> oh
18:45:20 <elliott> of course :)
18:45:22 <variable> oerjan, yes
18:45:29 <variable> that explains the "Inferred Type"
18:45:41 <variable> and the "couldn't match" part of the problem
18:45:42 <variable> cool
18:46:32 <variable> is there a preferred order for things: should I do type A, type B, function A function B, main or type A function A type B function B
18:46:44 <elliott> variable: latter
18:46:56 <elliott> variable: types should be right next to the functions; they're very useful documentation :)
18:47:00 <elliott> machine-checked documentation at that
18:47:14 <elliott> given the name and type of a function you can usually work out 90% of what it does quickly
18:47:33 <variable> elliott, yep ---> this has been my preferred style for a while
18:47:49 <variable> machine checked documentation :-}
18:48:38 <variable> now
18:48:44 <variable> that twas fun
18:48:52 <elliott> careful, you're approaching Coq again
18:49:05 <elliott> our machine-checked documentation is HUNDREDS OF LINES LONG PROOFS OF CORRECTNESS!
18:51:21 <variable> elliott, I get the distinct feeling that I'd liike Coq :-}
18:51:47 <elliott> variable: unfortunately it is not very useful for actually writing programs :-)
18:52:00 <elliott> variable: although there are one or two libraries that were extracted (automatically) from formally-proved Coq code
18:52:06 <elliott> haskell libraries that is
18:54:21 <variable> what is the difference between head and fst? lists and tuples ?
18:55:12 <elliott> variable: yep
18:55:26 <elliott> note that fst only works on 2-tuples, even though there's 3, 4, 5 etc. -tuples
18:55:34 <elliott> it's okay though because nobody uses >=3-tuples :)
18:55:52 <variable> let rightTriangles = [ (a,b,c) | c <- [1..10], b <- [1..c], a <- [1..b], a^2 + b^2 == c^2] -----> they should teach this in math class instead of making kids memorize
18:56:07 <variable> </rant> :-}
18:56:18 <oerjan> ...you memorized that?
18:56:28 <elliott> I don't recall memorising that :-)
18:56:37 <elliott> Multiplication tables on the other hand ...
18:56:37 <variable> oerjan, no - we had to memorize the Pythagorean triples
18:56:42 <oerjan> huh
18:56:46 <elliott> variable: sucks to be you :D
18:57:25 <variable> elliott, I personally think that math classes should be more programming and less computation - but meh
18:57:28 <oerjan> variable: in that case you should at least have learned the _real_ formula for listing them all (note: i don't remember that either)
18:57:59 <elliott> variable: well "maths" should be renamed to arithmetic and then be all but abolished :-)
18:58:16 <elliott> erm not altogether, you know what i mean
18:59:50 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, so wait, which country are you in?
19:01:34 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, USA
19:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> Figures.
19:01:44 <variable> our education system is junk
19:01:58 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, where are you?
19:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> Scotland.
19:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's not terribly good here, although I'm informed that it's better than in England at final-year-of-school level.
19:05:43 <variable> (*) :: (Num a) => a -> a -> a
19:05:47 <variable> why is it not Int -> Int ?
19:06:01 <variable> oh wait - because it takes two ints
19:06:05 <elliott> variable: yes
19:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, ah, you are introduced to the wonderful world of typeclasses.
19:06:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: no, not that
19:06:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh?
19:06:14 <elliott> it's the two-argument thing here i think
19:06:19 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, I get typeclasses already
19:06:21 <elliott> variable: yeah, takes two ints, returns one int :)
19:06:32 <variable> I'd prefer it was something like Int,Int -> Int
19:06:32 <elliott> variable: btw a -> a -> a is the same as a -> (a -> a)
19:06:36 <elliott> and f x y is the same as (f x) y
19:06:36 <variable> but its ambigious
19:06:42 <elliott> variable: that's why it's not Int,Int -> Int
19:06:44 <elliott> variable: because you can say
19:06:45 <elliott> foo = f x
19:06:48 <elliott> then foo y == f x y
19:06:56 <elliott> variable: this is _very_ powerful & useful
19:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, or, if you're adventurous, it takes an int and returns a function that takes an int and returns an int.
19:07:15 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, ah - that makes sense
19:07:28 <variable> similar to my dividesBy function
19:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Identical.
19:07:36 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover_: Edinburgh?
19:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, mhm.
19:07:53 <variable> This all Just Makes Sense
19:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, the (==0) bit is just that in a disguise.
19:07:58 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover_: and you study computer science on university of edi ?
19:08:03 -!- Sasha has joined.
19:08:06 <variable> Phantom_Hoover_, yeah - I figured
19:08:06 <elliott> nooga: he's in high school :P
19:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, no, but go on.
19:08:12 <nooga> oh
19:08:18 <nooga> then nothing
19:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, why?
19:08:21 * variable wishes I did this in High School :-\
19:08:29 <variable> I'm close enough though
19:08:33 <variable> :-}
19:08:41 <nooga> i thought maybe you're studying cs with a friend of mine
19:08:46 <nooga> that'd be awesome
19:08:49 <elliott> variable: mwahaha, i'm three years ahead of you ... well actually i learned haskell a year or two ago so a bit more
19:09:02 <elliott> WASTED CHILDHOOD
19:09:06 <variable> elliott, ahead = your a senior ?
19:09:13 <variable> or your in HS ?
19:09:14 <elliott> variable: ahead in learning
19:09:14 <nooga> hahahahhahahaha
19:09:15 <nooga> ajhahahha
19:09:16 <elliott> :-P
19:09:17 <variable> elliott, ah
19:09:20 <elliott> haskell, at least
19:09:21 <elliott> lol
19:09:26 <variable> elliott, how old are you
19:09:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, I think he's in school now.
19:09:31 <elliott> variable: 15
19:09:38 <variable> ah - I'm 19
19:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> He used to be in a loony bin, but they let him out for not being very crazy.
19:09:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: not sure how I'm meant to parse that sentence
19:09:52 * Mathnerd314 hates IRC
19:09:53 <variable> I was doing C++ then ;-\
19:09:57 <elliott> i approve of this version of history
19:10:00 <elliott> Mathnerd314: why?
19:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> variable, you poor baby!
19:10:14 <nooga> looney bin xD
19:10:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: not enough structure
19:10:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i don't want to tag every message i write
19:10:39 <elliott> freeform is nice
19:10:41 <elliott> more flexible
19:10:53 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but you can't even when you want too
19:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although I still yearn for that LaTeX-rendering plugin.
19:11:00 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i never want to
19:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: p. sure it exists
19:11:19 <Mathnerd314> elliott: thus why you irc and I hate it
19:11:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well don't complain about irc on irc, you'll find little support :P
19:11:57 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm hoping for something backwards-compatible
19:15:08 <Mathnerd314> other problems: you can't correct or annotate
19:15:23 <elliott> good
19:15:33 <elliott> I don't want mesags to change underneath me
19:15:34 <elliott> *messages
19:15:36 <elliott> ^ that is much nicer
19:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, so I'm assuming you approve of Learn You a Haskell?
19:15:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: yes.
19:18:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> I stopped reading it for reasons unclear to me now, which is a pity since I missed out on all of the stuff on functors and monads and stuff.
19:19:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: sure, you can correct, but it isn't structured; I can't tell what you were correcting
19:19:59 <Mathnerd314> *if
19:20:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: yes you can, because you (probably) possess a brain
19:21:34 <Mathnerd314> elliott: computers were invented so I could choose what to use my brain on
19:21:49 <elliott> and you chose complaining about IRC
19:22:10 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no, I'm asking for a way to stop using my brain for trivial things on irc
19:22:52 <Mathnerd314> *to
19:23:14 <Sgeo> cheater99, no, not with the ancient's learning machines
19:23:39 <elliott> if you can even _notice_ the tiny percent of your brain power it takes to figure out what message it's correcting, well ... maybe you don't have much brain power to go around
19:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo: ignoring half a day's conversation and going on with what he was talking about before.
19:25:04 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no, I notice the accumulation. it's a reflex against falling into ruts
19:25:15 <elliott> it's a stupid reflex.
19:26:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: not at all. how else do you notice that your life sucks?
19:27:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: your life sucks because you're figuring out what messages correct which other messages on IRC?
19:27:31 <cheater99> Sgeo: wait, then when?
19:27:39 <Mathnerd314> elliott: exactly. so I want a program to do it for me, backwards-compatible with irc.
19:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Holy crap.
19:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> There is a wiki of stuff that was too stupid for Uncyclopedia.
19:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> That.
19:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> *what
19:30:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: So ... uh ...
19:30:25 <elliott> No, I can't think.
19:30:26 <elliott> Wht
19:30:28 <elliott> What does it contain?
19:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, I'm going in.
19:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> If I don't come back, fix that damn crater on Mt. Hoover, then make it into a memorial.
19:31:04 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: give a link first
19:31:13 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: also, agree with me
19:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.illogicopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:31:36 * Phantom_Hoover_ goes to a random page.
19:31:42 <zzo38> Yes I saw Illogicopedia before too
19:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.illogicopedia.org/wiki/Mr._Bean
19:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> ...my brain.
19:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's not even hurting, it's just exactly the wrong shape for conscious thought.
19:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> It should be an SCP.
19:33:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.illogicopedia.org/wiki/Flub_Nugget
19:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> It just... if Cthulhu's diary was translated into English, I suspect you'd get this.
19:34:14 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so do you agree with me yet?
19:34:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: nope.
19:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> Mathnerd314, please shut up.
19:34:56 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: that's new! why should I shut up?
19:35:06 <zzo38> I doubt it should be an SCP.
19:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Mathnerd314, because you are being intensely irritating. Stop it or shut up.
19:36:41 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: so why am I irritating?
19:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, how do you work XChat's /ignore?
19:37:22 <Mathnerd314> ignore is cheating
19:37:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: /ignore nick!*@* all
19:37:37 <elliott> nick* if you want to catch foo_ as well as foo
19:37:39 <Mathnerd314> give me a reason and I'd shut up right away
19:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> Done.
19:38:04 <elliott> I have no idea what you just did.
19:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Now, let's discuss something worthwhile.
19:38:50 * Mathnerd314 waits
19:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hmm. Why is Applicative dependent on Functor?
19:42:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: because they're applicative functors
19:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Surely fmap f = (pure f <*>)
19:43:52 <elliott> you can't have a
19:44:00 <elliott> instance (Applicative f) => Functor f
19:44:05 <elliott> because that's all overlapping
19:44:09 <elliott> so this is the best way
19:44:16 <cheater99> i would find it fun if Mr. Bean turned out to be god
19:44:51 <cheater99> and in some twisted, fucked-up world the deity turned out to have demented so far. he's still all-powerful, just barely ever uses those powers because he pretty much forgot about them.
19:44:54 <elliott> Apparently this machine is called Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air. Worst hostname ever?
19:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, overlapping?
19:45:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: yes
19:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Explain
19:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> *.
19:45:19 <elliott> -bash: git: command not found
19:45:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: too lazy, google overlapping instances
19:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, of course. You'd do (Functor f) (Applicative f) or something?
19:46:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: eh?
19:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, maybe I should look it up.
19:52:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: haskell doesn't support using the methods of a subclass to define the methods of a superclass implicitly. there have been extensions suggested to allow this.
19:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, so just don't make Applicative a subclass of Functor?
19:53:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: but every Applicative _should_ be a Functor
19:53:27 <oerjan> and if not for hysterical raisins, every Monad should have been an Applicative
19:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, yes, so have instance (Applicative f) (Functor f) or whatever.
19:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> Where fmap f = (pure f <*>)
19:53:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: and haskell does not support doing that, is what i'm saying
19:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, why?
19:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I looked up overlapping definitions, but I just ended up confused.
19:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> s/definitions/instances/
19:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> Anyway, food.
19:57:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: the algorithm ghc uses to look up whether a type belongs to a class does not look at other typeclasses it belongs to until _after_ deciding which instance to use, so class Applicative a => Functor a ... would be used for _every_ type a during the lookup phase.
19:57:51 <oerjan> unless you allow overlapping instances.
19:59:10 <oerjan> this restriction is in order to ensure that under normal circumstances, adding a new instance never changes the interpretation of already defined ones.
20:00:43 <oerjan> (without giving a compiler error for overlapping)
20:02:23 <oerjan> it may also have something to do with keeping the typeclass resolution decidable
20:03:11 <oerjan> also this has been complained about before, but the haskell gurus are ardent about keeping this "open world" property
20:09:37 <nooga> btw
20:10:16 <nooga> i thought about a compiler for a language typed pretty much like javascript
20:11:02 <nooga> and i'd write type inference engine that would try to avoid any type hinting
20:11:21 <nooga> but then it can't guarantee correctness, right?
20:11:34 <zzo38> Did you know...... there is big spider on my bed?
20:12:16 <nooga> yuck!
20:12:39 <nooga> how big?
20:13:08 <zzo38> approx. 1 metre
20:13:41 <nooga> :F
20:14:15 <zzo38> Sorry, "F" is incorrect. The only choices are "A", "B", "C", "D".
20:14:27 <zzo38> (It is multiple choice question, isn't it?)
20:15:18 <elliott> nooga: type hinting?
20:15:22 <elliott> you mean type signatures?
20:15:28 <elliott> nooga: what do you mean re - guarantee correctness
20:16:46 <oerjan> nooga: the technical theorem goes something like "full type inference in the presence of subtyping is undecidable"
20:17:11 <elliott> oerjan: indeed, but if nooga's ok with hindley-milner ...
20:17:32 <oerjan> well javascript has object orientation
20:18:02 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but javascript also has dynamic typing
20:18:08 <elliott> so clearly nooga is straying slightly :)
20:18:14 <elliott> oerjan: btw javascript has no inheritance
20:18:20 <oerjan> oh
20:18:24 <elliott> oerjan: it's prototype-based, which is even /more/ of a headache
20:18:32 <elliott> oerjan: yes, you can inherit things ... but you can also do hideous things too
20:18:48 <elliott> oerjan: and it's hard to distinguish types (prototype objects) from values (their clones)
20:20:56 <elliott> heh, apple doesn't let you register as a developer without specifying a company/organisation
20:21:02 <elliott> elliott from N/A corp here
20:21:16 <zzo38> I think Javascript is better program language than PHP in general (ignoring their common uses)
20:21:55 <elliott> Which Apple platforms do you develop with? Select all that apply.
20:21:55 <elliott> iOS
20:21:55 <elliott> Mac OS X
20:21:57 <elliott> Safari
20:22:01 * elliott wonders how one "develops for Safari"
20:22:34 <oerjan> I think Hu Jintao is a much nicer politician than Stalin in general (ignoring their common policies)
20:22:52 <elliott> Which web technologies do you work with? Select all that apply.
20:22:52 <elliott> C# CSS 3 HTML 5 Internet Plug-ins Java JavaScript/AJAX/Ruby/Rails Perl/PHP/Python Other
20:22:59 <elliott> "JavaScript/AJAX/Ruby/Rails"
20:23:03 <elliott> I swear to god that is a single checkbox.
20:23:33 <elliott> oerjan: there's an opinion in your message, but i can't find it
20:23:58 <oerjan> elliott: that comparing crap and horrible crap doesn't say much
20:24:11 <elliott> oerjan: i never thought of you as a guy with opinions :D
20:24:19 <elliott> [[By checking this box I confirm that I have read and agree to be bound by the Agreement above. I also confirm that I am of the legal age of majority in the jurisdiction in which I reside (at least 18 years of age in many countries).]]
20:24:24 <elliott> oh snap, being under 18 i can check this without consequence
20:24:31 <oerjan> elliott: no no it's not an opinion, it's a meta-opinion
20:24:48 <elliott> oerjan: well yes, but you just demonstrated anti-JS and anti-PHP sentiment :)
20:24:49 <oerjan> and i never m *hit by time-traveling anvil*
20:25:02 <coppro> elliott: doesn't quite work that way
20:25:06 <elliott> btw wouldn't mao have been more obvious
20:25:21 <oerjan> elliott: well i considered it
20:25:21 <elliott> coppro: shh! I'm relying on being considered too stupid to have understood what I'm doing
20:25:30 <nooga> uh
20:26:15 <nooga> js is quite good
20:26:26 <elliott> js is good apart from 90% of it which is horrible
20:26:29 <elliott> the 10% is Scheme
20:26:33 <nooga> yes
20:26:37 <nooga> i like this 10%
20:26:43 <elliott> nooga: yes, unfortunately it's useless
20:26:49 <elliott> things like the object model and the DOM exist outside it
20:26:53 <coppro> rainwave!
20:26:55 <nooga> but look at the design of jQuery!
20:26:56 <elliott> nooga: also the syntax is sub-optimal for a Scheme.
20:27:35 <coppro> goddamit CBC
20:27:37 <elliott> coppro: i'm using a system COMPILED ENTIRELY WITH CLANG APART FROM THE KERNEL
20:27:40 <coppro> stop using the word 'troll' right
20:27:40 <elliott> leading f'n edge
20:27:41 <coppro> it's confusing
20:27:46 <elliott> haha
20:27:47 <coppro> elliott: nice
20:27:48 <elliott> what
20:27:55 <coppro> elliott: 'troll' as in fishing
20:27:55 <elliott> coppro: yeah, they call it OS X :trollface:
20:28:00 <elliott> coppro: Problem?
20:28:07 <nooga> ;D
20:28:18 <coppro> elliott: "The site trolls for information"
20:28:21 <nooga> put elliott on /b/
20:28:25 <elliott> coppro: what xD
20:28:37 <coppro> elliott: it is correct usage of the word
20:28:38 <elliott> nooga: i'm an innocent flower who has never seen /b/ before.
20:28:40 <nooga> watch trolls being trolled
20:28:41 <elliott> and you better believe it
20:28:43 <elliott> coppro: I know
20:28:44 <elliott> coppro: but lol
20:28:56 <oerjan> elliott is so believable
20:29:16 <elliott> 5 hours until xcode downloads
20:29:19 <elliott> i think i might plug into ethernet
20:29:28 <oerjan> that's how he gets close to you and *stabs* you
20:29:36 <nooga> i believe that there are some highly intelligent /b/tards out there that make idiots of themselves on /b/ just for pure fun
20:29:53 <coppro> this is true
20:30:22 <elliott> nooga: that's all of them.
20:30:31 <nooga> nah
20:30:38 <elliott> well. ok. it used to be all of them :)
20:30:47 <nooga> it used...
20:31:13 <elliott> nooga: in the past.
20:32:45 <elliott> yay it's going faster now
20:43:59 <elliott> oerjan: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/84865
20:44:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, mcmap somehow got desynced while building with torches near max alt.
20:44:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, it "works" but the are has random "garbage"
20:44:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I blame Notch.
20:45:00 <elliott> oerjan: is it time for Peter Landin Facts?
20:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
20:46:11 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/essc7/ok_i_am_a_bit_freaked_out/
20:46:28 <elliott> Notch should make that kind of stuff generate naturally.
20:46:46 <elliott> Evidence of people being there before, occasional hidden deposits of useful things... man-made objects...
20:47:51 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, quite, might want it as an option though to avoid pissing of users who want to feel that they are the first to walk there
20:48:25 <elliott> Vorpal: everything's an option :P
20:48:26 <Vorpal> personally I'm ok with either
20:49:16 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/UGw2n.gif
20:49:21 <elliott> holy shit what limechat
20:49:26 <elliott> why are you inlining images
20:49:29 <elliott> bad limechat
20:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that think you linked: maybe F4 "bug"?
20:49:32 <elliott> nobody link to goatse
20:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, that is an awesome MC idea.
20:49:45 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently, it's chunks from old worlds being loaded
20:49:52 <elliott> except if he didn't build a nether portal ... well ...
20:49:55 <elliott> who knows anyway
20:50:03 <elliott> fixed the image inlining
20:50:06 <elliott> you can all link to goatse now
20:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, remember when pressing f4 gave you nether?
20:50:10 <elliott> Vorpal: yes
20:50:20 * Phantom_Hoover_ doesn't.
20:50:23 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe he did that by mistake, that is what I meant
20:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: doubt it. since the boats etc
20:50:33 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> nobody link to goatse <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, that is an awesome MC idea.
20:50:36 <elliott> Vorpal: and minecarts and chests
20:50:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hm okay
20:50:52 <Vorpal> elliott, then weird bug or a hoax?
20:50:53 * Phantom_Hoover_ swatpans oerjan --==\#/
20:51:42 <oerjan> `echo hi
20:51:43 <elliott> I wonder why they didn't include XCode on the reinstall drive that comes with the Air.
20:51:43 <Vorpal> elliott, the steps for roof thing is quite nice when you can use it
20:51:50 <elliott> (It's the tiniest USB drive I have /ever/ seen.)
20:52:08 <elliott> By tiny I mean *TINY*:
20:52:08 <elliott> http://news.cnet.com/i/tim/2010/10/20/DSC_0072_610x438.JPG
20:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so it doesn't have the developer cd?
20:52:13 <HackEgo> hi
20:52:13 <HackEgo> 256) <elliott> nobody link to goatse <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, that is an awesome MC idea.
20:52:22 <oerjan> `quote 256
20:52:23 <HackEgo> 256) <elliott> nobody link to goatse <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, that is an awesome MC idea.
20:52:23 <elliott> Vorpal: The developer CD == the install DVD. Or maybe it still comes on 2, so the second DVD.
20:52:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how thick is it drive?
20:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: But, eh, you can download it for free. All 3 gigabytes of it.
20:52:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It's thinner than the USB port.
20:52:48 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds... unreliable?
20:52:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really.
20:52:58 <elliott> Bit hard to push in though.
20:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't dare push it
20:53:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I had to wriggle it :-P
20:53:35 <elliott> Incidentally, this thing is *crazy* thin.
20:53:44 <elliott> It's exactly as high as a USB port ... in the highest place.
20:54:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a border around the port, or it wouldn't be a port
20:54:04 <elliott> (Well, OK, there is an imperceptible bit of non-USB-port aluminium above and below the USB ports. But still.)
20:54:19 <elliott> I am fairly sure it's actually powered by gnomes.
20:54:26 <elliott> Flat, two-dimensional gnomes.
20:54:27 <Vorpal> elliott, unibody design I presume?
20:54:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
20:54:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[But that is nuts.]] — someone on that Reddit thread who clearly has no insight into the twisted mind of Notch.
20:54:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I think the connections to other parts would make it 10x thicker :-P
20:55:02 <elliott> It actually has screw holes to open up the bottom though.
20:55:12 <elliott> But it would be impossible to do anything but replace the battery.
20:55:25 <elliott> The SSD isn't soldered on (the RAM is though), but it's chips without any enclosure, slotted into the motherboard.
20:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, what was the nature of the madness that lead you to buy this laptop?
20:55:37 <Vorpal> elliott, soldered on ram? yeargh
20:55:37 <elliott> And I don't think you can buy the chips separately.
20:55:58 <elliott> Vorpal: To be fair, at least it was necessary in this case rather than being a "fuck you customers thing".
20:56:05 <elliott> Well, necessary given the crazy design goals.
20:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: God knows.
20:56:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, please run me through the events that lead to it coming into your possession.
20:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, is the wifi good?
20:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, and does it have bluetooth?
20:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. Well, I haven't tried any LAN stuff yet, but the WiFi is very reliable so far.
20:57:10 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders doing an Oolite Let's Play.
20:57:11 <elliott> Yes, Bluetooth.
20:57:23 <Vorpal> hm
20:57:53 <Vorpal> elliott, keyboard backlit?
20:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, FWIW, new Minecraft Experiment update.
20:57:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What's this. Oh. That's thin. Too bad the specs are -- it has a decent processor? Better GPU? 4 gigs of RAM? ...High resolution display? No. No. I won't do it. I won't be tem- HOW thin? DAMN YOU, STEVE JOBS, YOU CRAZY MAN! I CANNOT RESIST!
20:58:07 <elliott> Vorpal: No. That is the one thing it does not have :P
20:58:14 <elliott> (The previous model did IIRC, presumably it took up TOO MUCH ROOM.)
20:58:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what about a lamp above it?
20:58:23 <elliott> THANKFULLY I can touch type.
20:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, above the screen
20:58:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No. I can touch type.
20:58:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Well.
20:58:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You could use the camera-is-on LED :-P
20:58:42 <elliott> Or just the light from the screen.
20:58:43 <Vorpal> hah
20:58:56 <elliott> It *is* LED, so it runs the full gamut from black to lightbulb.
20:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, what about flash reader?
20:59:10 <Vorpal> I doubt it will do CF
20:59:16 <Vorpal> but many some of the smaller ones?
20:59:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It has an SD card reader, at least. I don't know if it's a fancy combo thing.
20:59:39 <Vorpal> ah
20:59:40 <nooga> http://cubeengine.com/ this + crafting system + procedural landscape + MMO server > minecraft
21:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and how many USB ports was it?
21:00:05 <elliott> nooga: As a fan of Wouter (like everyone here!): shut up.
21:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wouter?
21:00:18 <Vorpal> wouter?
21:00:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Inventor of Aardappel, and also Saurbraten.
21:00:28 <elliott> He's the guy with 3498573495349857393945 languages.
21:00:31 <nooga> cube engine is pure awesomness
21:00:32 <elliott> Also FALSE.
21:00:33 <elliott> Of course.
21:00:39 <elliott> Vorpal: A whole two USB ports.
21:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> I recognise these things, but I know nothing about them. Except FALSE.
21:00:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://strlen.com/aardappel-language
21:00:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... how is cooling?
21:01:03 <Vorpal> elliott, and did you try dwarf fortress?
21:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, looking at it now.
21:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, Dwarf Fortress is pretty boring, to be honest.
21:01:32 <elliott> Vorpal: It's cool enough that I'm using it on my lap with no discomfort at all, and it only got lukewarm when I played Minecraft on maximum settings. (But the fan made a bit of noise.)
21:01:37 <elliott> Haven't tried Dwarf Fortress yet.
21:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> And there's no obvious Linux version.
21:01:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes there is.
21:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> *Obvious.*
21:02:09 <elliott> SDL: Windows | Mirror 1 | Mirror 2 | Mirror 3 | Windows (No Music) | Linux | Mac (Intel)
21:02:11 <elliott> Note "Linux".
21:02:19 <elliott> It's on the same line as the Windows download.
21:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> THERE WASN'T WHEN I LOOKED
21:02:26 <zzo38> I tried to play Dwarf Fortress once. I don't like the game, also there is many things I cannot figure out how to change (if it can be changed), and it is slow. In general, I do not like this game.
21:02:37 <elliott> Yeah I technically don't remember that either :P
21:02:41 <elliott> zzo38: It's slow because your computer is slow.
21:03:01 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, Dwarf Fortress is pretty boring, to be honest. <-- that is not important here. The important bit is that it has high system requirements
21:03:33 <zzo38> elliott: Well, yes, my computer is one of the things that makes it slow.
21:03:37 <elliott> Vorpal: This thing is better than my iMac, let's put it that way. :p
21:04:00 <Vorpal> elliott, if you ran windows I would suggest crysis
21:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> When I tried playing it, I was astounded at the world generation, then confused to hell by the interface once gameplay actually started, then bored to hell and driven off by the prospect of (gasp!) micromanagement.
21:04:18 <elliott> Crysis is only slow if you max the settings out, I gather :-P
21:04:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I never tried it.
21:04:51 <elliott> But it amuses me that, four years after it was released, getting it to run at high FPS on maximum settings is still reserved for the absolute most expensive cards.
21:05:01 <Vorpal> hah
21:05:19 <zzo38> Play different game, such as the games I make you can watch. Or, please make up your own games (or game ideas)!
21:05:27 <Vorpal> ....
21:05:39 <elliott> zzo38: My game idea is to make a game that is Dwarf Fortress.
21:06:18 <Vorpal> elliott, crysis is mainly GPU heavy right? So combine crysis 3D engine with dwarf fortress
21:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I have to admit that swiping four fingers downwards to activate Expose makes me feel like a bit of an uncivilised savage.
21:06:27 <elliott> Like I'm swatting something with my paw.
21:06:43 <zzo38> elliott: Can you write a FOSS game working like Dwarf Fortress and with improvements?
21:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't they use to put that in F<some number>?
21:06:53 <elliott> zzo38: Probably not :-P
21:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, if I suggested something like that, I would get a very different answer :P
21:07:26 <elliott> Vorpal: They still do, but since over a third of the laptop's bottom is dedicated to a gigantic slab of clickable glass, I'm gonna use the shit out of it.
21:07:45 <Vorpal> elliott, hope it doesn't break
21:07:58 <elliott> Vorpal: What, the glass?
21:08:10 <elliott> It's not like glassy glass, it's just glass-coated. :p
21:08:11 <Vorpal> yeah
21:08:15 <Vorpal> ah
21:08:20 <elliott> It feels like very smooth plastic, basically.
21:08:22 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1293597986
21:08:34 <Vorpal> elliott, what about fingerprints
21:08:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see any. It's not like the iPhone's screen.
21:09:14 <elliott> Note: I don't have any idea what it's actually made of, I just know it's coated with glass.
21:09:33 <elliott> It's nice, though; most trackpads feel really small to me.
21:09:37 <oerjan> elliott: hey theoretically one could make a game that would keep using more and more resources the more computing power you throw at it, until it successfully simulates a universe in perfect detail
21:09:49 <elliott> oerjan: indeed! get on it
21:10:13 <oerjan> theoretically, i am
21:10:25 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders what the eigenratio of the universe is.
21:10:38 <elliott> oerjan: er howso :D
21:10:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, some sort of fractal might be a good way to do it
21:10:59 <oerjan> elliott: it's a very dubious theory
21:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Matter is already fractal.
21:11:09 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
21:11:13 <elliott> Matter is made out of matter is made out of matter is made out of quarks is ... oh, wait, never mind.
21:11:26 <Vorpal> elliott, fractal up to a point
21:11:26 <elliott> (Is made out of tiny vibrating strings is made out of raw hate for Notch!)
21:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, matter is just a general term.
21:11:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, yes, but the way I see oerjan's idea, you'd go from simulating entire macroscopic objects to breaking them down slightly, to doing atoms,
21:11:54 <elliott> to simulating THE VERY FABRIC OF MATTER.
21:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, but considering something like a tree. They have a fractal nature. So level of detail comes more or less "naturally" there
21:12:09 <oerjan> elliott: actually the virtual particle creation and destruction makes things fractal even at the elementary particle level, i believe.
21:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's more like Inductive matter := | <leptons> | <quarks> | <various gauge particles>.
21:12:24 <elliott> yeah well
21:12:27 <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
21:12:28 <elliott> your face is fractal ugly
21:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, how?
21:12:51 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
21:12:52 <HackEgo> 257) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
21:13:45 -!- wareya_ has joined.
21:16:55 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:17:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: basically every elementary particle is surrounded by an infinite cloud of virtual ones, which only exist for tiny moments before being destroyed again. this causes the math to blow up and they have to use a trick called renormalization to calculate how the things we actually observe (which consist of "real" particle + "virtual" cloud) behave
21:17:19 <zzo38> Why don't you please try to play CGA Collection game, one of these games might be good game to you???
21:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, still don't see the fractalness.
21:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> There's no self-similarity, just loads of particles on the same scale.
21:18:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: these virtual particles, for the moment they exist, have their own virtual cloud
21:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hmm.
21:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> But you're still selecting from a finite range of particles with constant size.
21:19:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> You can't zoom in on an electron and see lots of little electrons.
21:19:14 <oerjan> the particles themselves have size _zero_ in the theory
21:19:44 <elliott> oerjan: is this theory widely-accepted? :P
21:19:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, yes.
21:19:53 <zzo38> But they have mass, though. And mass is also energy.
21:19:58 <elliott> well, right
21:20:02 <elliott> i meant the -- oh forget it
21:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's part of the accepted corpus of QM.
21:20:06 <elliott> i am terrible at explaining things
21:20:07 <oerjan> but they can have differing amounts of energy. in fact a virtual particle can have higher energy the shorter they live. (heisenberg uncertainty)
21:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, which leads neatly onto my awesome generator idea.
21:20:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> Which converts mass directly to energy without any of that tedious mucking about with antimatter.
21:21:25 <oerjan> zzo38: well mass is usually fixed for each particle type afaik. it's the extra which varies, i think. actually i'm not very sure about those details
21:21:42 <oerjan> *the extra energy
21:21:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: oh?
21:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, Hawking generator?
21:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> I explained it yesterday when you were here?
21:22:54 <elliott> Oh, right.
21:22:57 <elliott> Didn't that involve antimatter?
21:23:28 <Ilari> I applaud 3GPP for making IMS IPv6-only... :-)
21:23:39 <Ilari> And no, hawking generator doesn't involve antimatter.
21:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, no.
21:24:54 <elliott> Well, right.
21:24:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although you could use it to convert antimatter into energy as well.
21:25:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: How is it *your* idea again? :-)
21:25:12 <Ilari> One thing about black holes: Is baryon number property of black holes or do black holes violate conservation of baryon number?
21:25:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: it _does_ remain to be seen if a radiating black hole really destroys all quantum numbers other than charge and rotation, as predicted. hm if not would that prevent the hole from disappearing?
21:25:54 <elliott> <cpressey> who cares, black holes don't exist anyway
21:25:54 <oerjan> *mass, charge and rotation
21:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, hmm?
21:25:59 <Ilari> Same for lepton numbers (3 of them).
21:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, please tell me cpressey doesn't really think that.
21:26:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, he doesn't actively go around saying black holes don't exist but he isn't convinced of their existence.
21:26:33 * Phantom_Hoover_ sighs.
21:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> Why... just, why?
21:27:01 <Ilari> Also, B-L... That being violated would be even bigger deal than baryon/lepton number violations...
21:27:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Hey now, I distinctly recall some pop sci article saying SCIENTISTS were considering that they might not exist ;)
21:27:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: if black holes preserve baryon number, say, then they would have to radiate matter rather than antimatter. and that would mean they couldn't radiate just mostly photons... someone's probably thought about this
21:28:11 <elliott> I'd grep the logs for cpressey's opinions on black holes, but I'd need hg to check out Gregor's log repository, and to get hg I need Homebrew, and to use Homebrew I need XCode which is downloading.
21:28:22 <oerjan> Ilari: oh i didn't notice you asking the same question
21:28:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, wait, ahhh.
21:28:33 <Ilari> Well, the matter/antimatter distinction in hawking radiation doesn't matter anyway before they reach enough temperature to start radiating electrons...
21:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, awww.
21:28:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: ?
21:28:44 <Gregor> elliott: lawlfail
21:28:54 <elliott> Gregor: SHUT UP, IT HAS A GIGANTIC GLASS TRACKPAD.
21:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, getting the codu repository from hg.
21:29:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Why did you go wait, ahhh.
21:29:40 <Ilari> And being able to reach 511keV thermally requires _quite_ high temperature.
21:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, because I've wanted that forever.
21:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Don't post the link, Gregor's method of conserving bandwidth appears to be to not publicise it at all and let people find it themselves :P
21:30:25 <elliott> Admittedly it is just a one-time download of about 70 megs.
21:30:26 <Gregor> Pretty much :P
21:30:29 <elliott> Maybe nearing 100 by now.
21:30:56 <elliott> 33 minutes remaining for XCode ...
21:31:20 <elliott> I wonder if I can tell Homebrew to use clang by default.
21:31:57 <oerjan> Ilari: you could imagine that black holes would stop radiating at some point because they couldn't satisfy the necessary quantum numbers...
21:33:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://i.imgur.com/H9nHB.png OUR GLASS HATS ARE ... WAIT FOR IT ... OLD-HAT
21:33:23 <elliott> OMG
21:33:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://i.imgur.com/eUq9d.png
21:33:26 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/eUq9d.png
21:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wait, is this GENERAL?
21:33:54 -!- Gregor has set topic: turds at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | turds at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical turds at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
21:33:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well ... I think it has to be a _block_.
21:33:59 <Gregor> DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN
21:34:04 <elliott> Gregor: That ... is really unwise :P
21:34:04 <oerjan> btw is anyone mirroring the actual wiki? this dns business is starting to make me nervous
21:34:06 <elliott> Gregor: Also you forgot https.
21:34:07 <elliott> oerjan: yes.
21:34:10 <elliott> Gregor has it in hg.
21:34:16 <oerjan> good, good
21:34:16 <elliott> other people have backups
21:34:33 <Gregor> elliott: Works via both http and https
21:34:35 <elliott> But Gregor would only host the wiki if he could make it Hackiki :D
21:34:40 <elliott> Gregor: BUT HOW CAN I SECURE MY TRANSMUTION
21:34:49 <Gregor> elliott: By putting an 's' on it :P
21:34:55 <elliott> Gregor: YOU ARE FASCIST
21:35:05 <oerjan> elliott: no no s is for socialist
21:35:26 <Gregor> Meaning the lack of 's' is for fascism.
21:35:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: [[This works with any block on SMP. Not items though. I gave myself a lightstone head.]]
21:36:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6771672/minecraft/armorbug/stairs.png
21:36:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6771672/minecraft/armorbug/fence.png
21:36:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6771672/minecraft/armorbug/halfblock.png
21:36:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6771672/minecraft/armorbug/portal.png APPARENTLY THIS IS ANIMATED OMG OMG OMG WANT
21:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, OK, so what should I search for in the logs to see cpressey being nuts?
21:36:41 <elliott> I WANT A SWIRLY HEAD
21:36:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Um, grep -i 'cpressey>.*black'
21:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
21:37:00 <elliott> *-ri 'cpressey>.*black' .
21:37:03 <elliott> Well.
21:37:07 <elliott> -i 'cpressey>.*black' 10*
21:37:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://i.imgur.com/rNfZR.png
21:37:33 <zzo38> I think you should make esolang wiki have both MediaWiki and Hackiki, and allow some limited interaction between them.
21:37:52 <elliott> "I put diamond ore on my head, many Lolz ensued" "Camp near where people are digging and hide your lower half, then when they try to mine the diamond the ore runs away :D"
21:38:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: apparently you can get a torch stuck to your head
21:38:31 <elliott> I want a lavaface
21:39:13 <oerjan> elementaly, my dear elliott
21:39:20 <elliott> oerjan: racist!
21:39:21 <oerjan> *+l
21:39:35 <elliott> its funny cuz of asians and r and l
21:39:44 <oerjan> elliott: hey i have nothing against fire elementals
21:40:04 <Vorpal> ineiros, there?
21:41:03 <oerjan> elliott: i suddenly envision people getting in trouble for collecting shoe laces ("Oh, I'm a lacist!")
21:41:21 <elliott> xD
21:41:24 <Vorpal> ineiros, if so: wrt that bug. What I did for cryptsetup-luks on ubuntu (which also uses device-mapper in the end, like lvm), was to set up disk using system rescue cd. Then I booted ubuntu live cd, mounted stuff, and installed on there
21:41:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, and before I rebooted I made sure the initramfs had cryptsetup of course
21:42:57 <elliott> CALL APOGEE SAY "AARDWOLF"
21:43:17 * oerjan now envisions _chinese_ people getting in trouble for collecting shoe laces
21:45:23 <elliott> i have a confession to make
21:45:27 <elliott> i am addicted to this magnetic power cord
21:45:28 <elliott> because
21:45:28 <Ilari_antrcomp> https? no httpy? :-)
21:45:35 <elliott> it actually snaps into the computer
21:45:37 <elliott> if you hold it close enough
21:45:57 <elliott> Ilari_antrcomp: Httpy? You mean http://www.eros-os.org/pipermail/e-lang/2000-May/003341.html? :p
21:46:01 <Gregor> GAWD I hate the magnetic power cord attachment.
21:46:09 <Gregor> It only comes out when I don't want it to.
21:46:30 <elliott> Gregor: The point is that it always comes out rather than having your laptop fall off the table, dude :P
21:46:48 <Gregor> I've never had this mystical laptop-falling-off-the-table experience.
21:46:48 <Vorpal> elliott, the new ones are stupid iirc. Since the cable doesn't attach straight out
21:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Define "attach straight out".
21:47:04 <Gregor> But I do have a never-ending sequence of plug-coming-out-of-laptop-for-no-reason.
21:47:11 <elliott> Gregor: You are not clumsy. I am clumsy.
21:47:32 <elliott> Admittedly it's come out once or twice without me wanting it today :P
21:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> Back when I still used the family MacBook the power cord broke at the attachment.
21:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> An entirely new cord was needed, at considerable expense.
21:50:25 <Sgeo> cheater99, the one with the bad guy who enters minds
21:50:26 <Sgeo> ones
21:50:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Was that a magsafe one or an older one?
21:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, magsafe.
21:50:58 <elliott> MAGNETS ARE EXPENSIVE
21:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> They're not even high-end magnets.
21:51:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: IIRC the original MagSafe was really badly designed.
21:51:56 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
21:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you don't need to tell me tha.
21:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> *that
21:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> It *melted* in the end.
21:52:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yeah... Apple like to rush things.
21:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> And overcharge for replacements.
21:53:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: How much did the cord cost?
21:53:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> £60 or so IIRC.
21:54:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Niiiiiiiiiiice.
21:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> For a transformer, some wires and a magnet.
21:54:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, Apple do like to sell AppleCare. :-P
21:54:27 <elliott> (AppleCare? No AppleDon't.)
21:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> I seriously don't understand people who think Apple gives you value for money.
21:55:45 <zzo38> I don't like the removal of mana burn in Magic: the Gathering cards
21:56:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Apple computers are, in fact, well-priced; the components are high quality. It's just that most people don't really care how well-shaped their aluminium computer is.
21:56:10 <elliott> Replacements are a complete ripoff, of course.
21:56:17 <Sgeo> Well, they do offer an easy to use alternative to Windows. Expensive, but still
21:56:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: (For instance, the new iMacs are ridiculously cheap. Let's put it this way: The 27" models are as expensive as the _display they use_ would be by itself.)
21:56:36 <elliott> (IPS.)
21:56:54 <elliott> Ridiculously cheap in relative terms of course ... they still cost a bundle.
21:58:04 <Sgeo> elliott, what's wrong with Racket?
21:58:30 <elliott> Absolutely nothin' (well, some things, but not much).
22:00:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:00:35 <elliott> RIP ais523
22:00:50 <Deewiant> I agree that mana burn should've been kept, in general the game's been dumbed down too much IMO
22:01:41 <Sgeo> Wait, what's the point either way? Are there a lot of things that cause there to be more than one mana put into the pool?
22:01:49 <elliott> OMG.
22:01:49 <Deewiant> Yes
22:01:51 <elliott> Epiphany.
22:02:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: We must make Dwarf Fortress: The Tabletop RPG.
22:02:08 <elliott> All computation done by humans.
22:02:14 <elliott> It would be THE WORST>
22:02:15 <elliott> *WORST.
22:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, on that topic http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Random_number_generator
22:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> A detailed explanation of Elite's RNG.
22:02:40 <zzo38> Deewiant: Yes I think that is correct. Mana burn should kept, and a lot of things have been made badly.
22:02:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> And galaxy-production mechanisms.
22:03:02 <zzo38> I also think it has been dumbed down too much
22:03:14 <Deewiant> Hell, I think they should've kept interrupts :-P
22:03:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "On that topic"? :P
22:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, procedural generation!
22:03:40 <elliott> "Installing this software requires 9.53 GB of space."
22:03:47 <elliott> I think that's in decimal gigabytes. But still.
22:03:51 <zzo38> Deewiant: No, I like how the stack works actually. But there are some rules I never liked, such as the rule that a Aura that is also a creature is destroyed.
22:04:16 <Deewiant> I just liked that interrupts could be played during damage prevention but instants couldn't
22:04:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Is Oolite actually fun?
22:04:47 <Deewiant> Nowadays you can block a creature, have it deal damage, and then return it to your hand with Boomerang for example; in the past I don't think you could
22:04:53 <Deewiant> Have the blocker deal damage, I mean
22:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, depends.
22:05:01 <zzo38> I also don't really like the way that planeswalkers rules work
22:05:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: On?
22:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's pretty boring slog at the start, but it gets better once you have the cash to pay for gadgets and blow things up.
22:05:30 <Deewiant> Well the planeswalker thing is actually a complication so I'm kind of fine with that in terms of "dumbing things down", although mostly they seem overpowered to me
22:05:59 <elliott> It is unnerving for disk activity to be happening with no audial indication.
22:06:45 <zzo38> I have written rules for a "playercard" which is somewhat similar to a planeswalker, but it acts as another player. It doesn't get turns normally, but some spells can give it extra turns if it is a card that can give players extra turns.
22:06:48 <Deewiant> I recommend a RAID-1 array of a few dozen 10000 RPM disks, it should help with that
22:07:17 <elliott> OK, I wonder if this thing is meant to get hot when installing software.
22:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, OTOH, you can always hack your save files to give yourself 10000000 credits and then buy tonnes of stuff, then install some OXPs and go nuts.
22:07:33 <zzo38> Playercards are not allowed to concede, their life total is equal to the number of their loyalty counters, and they are discarded if they win or lose the game (and the game continues).
22:07:40 <elliott> Come on fan! You can do it!
22:08:09 <elliott> SOON I WILL BE INFERTILE
22:08:12 <elliott> YOU MUST HELP ME OUT, FAN
22:08:17 <elliott> SAVE MY CHILDREN
22:09:15 <elliott> Dear god, it's gone into jet engine mode.
22:09:19 <elliott> I'm worried.
22:10:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Vorpal: Recommendation seen on /r/minecraft: -Xincgc.
22:10:48 <elliott> Incremental GC.
22:11:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Oh, time for irony.
22:11:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: [[Problem is, Notch said gold is intentionally useless — to quote him, "it's kind of a political statement". He was interested in the way gold is useless in the real world, but still has such a high value, and wanted to replicate that in Minecraft.]]
22:11:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And yet diamond is the most useful ore in the game.
22:11:28 <Deewiant> And gold is certainly not useless in the real world
22:11:32 <elliott> Minecraft -- sponsored by De BEers.
22:11:33 <elliott> *Beers.
22:11:34 <zzo38> See if you can figure out what any of these things do in Magic: the Gathering cards :
22:11:42 <zzo38> * A card with the type "Instant Land".
22:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, well, diamond is very useful IRL.
22:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> (As is gold, but not as obviously.)
22:12:06 <zzo38> * A creature with "Phasing. When ~ comes into play, it becomes an Instant in addition to its other types."
22:12:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes. But diamond is also not NEARLY as scarce as its price suggests.
22:12:19 <Sgeo> An instant that granted mana makes more sense to me than "instant land"
22:12:29 <elliott> Yet in Minecraft diamond is very rare and very useful, and Notch ... mocks gold for being useless?
22:12:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is not what I am asking.
22:13:01 <zzo38> * A card with "Tribal" as its only type.
22:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, so wait, the rumours about De Beers are true?
22:13:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The "rumours"?
22:14:00 <zzo38> Sgeo: I am asking what you would think would happen if a card's type somehow was "Instant Land", not what would make more sense and that kind of stuff.
22:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> When I was told them I was told they were rumours.
22:14:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: If you mean the fact that diamond's supply is very carefully controlled to keep it expensive and rare-seeming, then I don't know if I'd call them rumours so much as definite facts.
22:14:46 <elliott> Remember that De Beers was a monopoly for god knows how long.
22:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yes, that was it.
22:14:59 <elliott> [[De Beers is well known for its monopolistic practices throughout the 20th century, whereby it used its dominant position to manipulate the international diamond market.[2][16] The company used several methods to exercise this control over the market: Firstly, it convinced independent producers to join its single channel monopoly, it flooded the market with diamonds similar to those of producers who refused to join the cartel, and la
22:14:59 <elliott> stly, it purchased and stockpiled diamonds produced by other manufacturers in order to control prices through supply.[17] However, the De Beers model changed in 2000,[17] due to factors such as the decision by producers in Russia, Canada and Australia, to distribute diamonds outside of the De Beers channel, thus effectively ending the monopoly.[2][16]]]
22:15:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: But the effects -- diamond's ludicrous price -- remain.
22:15:55 <elliott> [[“I plan on adding some kind of overarching narrative to the game to drive the player forward and provide a sense of direction, and add many more new features, like monster towns and alchemy.”]] -Notch
22:16:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think the ruins idea is interesting.
22:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Especially if there were old mines.
22:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hey, you could make it psychological horror or something!
22:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> MC is a very horrific setting in the first place.
22:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> Or at least SSP is.
22:20:05 <coppro> it is a price people are willing to pay though
22:20:51 <elliott> coppro: yes ... because of De Beers marketing them :)
22:21:34 <coppro> the price will likely drop though
22:25:43 <Sgeo> Spam subject: "stop smoking shark"
22:26:06 <elliott> I'll smoke as much shark as I want.
22:28:19 <elliott> #machomebrew is INSUFFICIENTLY ACTIVE.
22:29:07 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:29:58 <Sgeo> Please tell me that that means something other than what I think it means
22:30:08 <elliott> Sgeo: What do you think it means?
22:30:33 <Sgeo> elliott, a way to get binaries not signed by Apple onto Macs. Apple isn't THAT psychotic, is it?
22:30:41 <elliott> Yes, yes they are!
22:31:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, programming on the Mac is *horrible*.
22:31:54 <Vorpal> elliott, drained another two lines today in the cube. You haven't drained any today. No offence meant. Just a fact.
22:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> You need to get *every binary* signed by Apple.
22:32:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, horrible as in, requires assistance from Apple, or horrible as in, .... WTF
22:32:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, you're joking
22:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> Recompile? Need new signature.
22:32:23 <Sgeo> You have to be joking
22:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Nope.
22:32:42 -!- variable has joined.
22:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Heck, even the interpreted languages are restricted.
22:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> They have their own versions of Python and Perl which perform signature checks, and any other interpreters are denied permission.
22:33:31 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not just a fact, you're complaining. What would you prefer I do? Make packages magically install faster so I can compile mcmap?
22:33:37 <elliott> Shall I get out my magic wand?
22:33:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also Ruby!
22:33:48 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I think you're trying to illustrate the silliness of what I thought was going on
22:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, play without mcmap?
22:33:50 <Sgeo> Right?
22:33:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And WALK to the Cube?
22:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, I wish I was.
22:33:57 <elliott> I don't think so.
22:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you have two computers.
22:34:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, link to source?
22:34:23 <Vorpal> elliott, also you don't /need/ mcmap as such.
22:34:33 <Vorpal> sure, it is nice to have
22:34:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I am not walking to the Cube.
22:34:51 <elliott> Ergo I need //goto.
22:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, yeah, but I mean, you'll have to wait to get Apple to sign it as well.
22:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> Might as well break out the old laptop.
22:35:55 <zzo38> The GPLv3 prevents allowing them from doing such things unless you are given a separate key for your own computer so that it can be bypassed in that way
22:36:06 <zzo38> Does Python/Perl/Ruby have this license?
22:36:10 <zzo38> I don't know.
22:36:39 <elliott> None of those are GPLv3'd.
22:37:09 <zzo38> But GNU packages are GPLv3'd.
22:37:29 <zzo38> Are you not allowed to run any GNU packages?
22:37:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:37:37 <elliott> zzo38: You can if you homebrew them.
22:38:12 <zzo38> elliott: What does "homebrew them" mean? What do you do in order to do that?
22:38:22 <elliott> zzo38: Break in.
22:39:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I think, when someone asks if you're being sarcastic, and you obviously are, the polite thing to do is to make fun of them for being slow to figure it out, not keep it going
22:40:01 <zzo38> Why don't they just give you a "unit key" for this purpose? Even the GPLv3 suggests doing this.
22:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, I apologise for nothing!
22:40:10 <elliott> Sgeo: If you're that dense to miss obvious sarcasm, you deserve it.
22:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, it was not, in fact, the truth.
22:40:25 <elliott> And fuck that idea of "politeness"; mocking you is hilarious, fun and easy, like all good things in life.
22:40:52 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: It is unclear what you are refering to.
22:40:58 <Sgeo> You could have mocked me in a less cruel manner!
22:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, the Apple thing.
22:42:28 <elliott> Sgeo: That was not cruel ... that was an obvious joke.
22:42:31 <elliott> You are way too sensitive.
22:47:44 <zzo38> #machomebrew appears a secret unregistered channel.
22:48:17 <elliott> zzo38: Um, it's registered for me.
22:49:25 <zzo38> My computer says it is unregistered and secret but existing.
22:49:36 <zzo38> Why does it say that? Is that a lie?
22:49:42 <elliott> I don't know.
22:50:18 * elliott taints his box with non-LLVM stuff
22:51:07 <elliott> 04:19:42 <fizzie> It probably says "PentiumPro" because PPro is the first CPU to return family=6, which is what pentiums II, III, M, and Core/Core2/Core i7, and Atom, return too. (P4 returns family=15, for some unclear reason.)
22:51:15 <elliott> fizzie: Aren't all the ones listed PIII arcthiecture, and P4 NetBurst?
22:51:20 <elliott> Or, wait, M is NetBurst too isn't it.
22:52:53 <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer.
22:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.1803v1
22:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> Dammit, all the good ideas are taken.
22:53:26 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer.
22:53:27 <HackEgo> 258) <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer.
22:53:41 <Sgeo> Racket has such a ... not-ready-for-prime-time-yet feel to it
22:54:11 <Sgeo> I mean, in their response to those criticisms, for instance
22:54:40 <zzo38> I have to use only components with the following criteria: * Component is not expensive. * No special membership is required. * Public information is available how it works, someone else can make a clone or emulation. * It can be programmed without proprietary software. * Components are user-replaceable.
22:54:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, it is *decades* old.
22:54:43 <elliott> Well, okay, decade.
22:54:52 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, which is why it's a bit concernng
22:54:54 <Sgeo> concerning
22:54:56 <elliott> 1994 apparently.
22:55:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Your complaints are stupid, though.
22:55:06 <zzo38> And possibly a few more criteria, too.
22:55:25 <Sgeo> elliott, what about the complaints of the person I linked to?
22:55:33 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these criteria?
22:55:37 <elliott> Sgeo: I didn't see.
22:55:52 <Sgeo> http://programming-puzzler.blogspot.com/2010/08/racket-vs-clojure.html
22:56:08 <elliott> OK, I need to name my computer. Anyone have any good hostnames?
22:56:10 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:56:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Clojure is terrible so anyone who's comparing X to Clojure and preferring Clojure is a moron unless X is PHP.
22:56:48 <Sgeo> elliott, I get the impression that the person wants to prefer Racket
22:56:56 <Sgeo> And hates a lot of things about Clojure
22:57:00 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:57:04 <elliott> I don't care about some random guy on the internet.
22:57:08 <elliott> Now someone name my computer.
22:57:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You name it.
22:57:14 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know. Are you going to use some dynamic DNS service? Will you get a static address and DNS? Is it only for your private network?
22:57:18 <Sgeo> elliott, ok, but eir criticisms might still be valid
22:57:25 <elliott> (My previous one was called dinky; as this computer is EVEN DINKER, I have no idea what to call it.)
22:57:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, but I don't read every post that says HASKELL SUX either.
22:57:40 <elliott> zzo38: Just for private network.
22:57:41 <Sgeo> Someone defending Racket on that page: "In support of Racket, we have come up with a library of data structures in Typed Racket (a statically typed dialect of Racket). And we are in the process of integrating it into the Racket release"
22:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, the Anguish of Malevolence.
22:57:46 <zzo38> Call it "evendinker", then.
22:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Angy" for short.
22:57:52 <Sgeo> i.e., "We're working on it"
22:57:57 <elliott> *evendinkier
22:58:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Typed Racket is very old.
22:58:08 <elliott> Sgeo: So clearly they are just merging it into Racket itself.
22:58:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Note that you can used Typed Racket with Racket.
22:58:19 <elliott> Racket supports multiple languages in one implementation.
22:58:25 <Sgeo> elliott, I am aware of that
22:58:26 <elliott> They coexist and can use the same libraries.
22:58:36 <Sgeo> It's pretty ... I think Racket wants to take over the world
22:58:41 <Sgeo> Consume all other languages
22:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> Racket = Scheme \cup other cool things, yes?
22:59:03 -!- calamari has joined.
22:59:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Pretty much. Except it's not a strict R5RS superset now.
22:59:13 <elliott> (Conses are immutable)
22:59:14 <Sgeo> There will never be a Racket.NET, because Racket and .NET are almost in competition
22:59:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Something wrong with creating a cohesive environment?
22:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, pleasepleaseplease tell me that's a quote?
22:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> *.
22:59:49 <elliott> Nope.
22:59:49 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, that what's not a quote
22:59:55 <elliott> ...?
22:59:58 <Sgeo> ?
23:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, if you do not call the computer Angy I will be very upset and I won't help you ever again.
23:00:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, the thing I didn't put in quote marks?
23:00:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: BTW, my previous computer names have been Bournemouth (the iMac, named after the computer in Look Around You series 2; previously Deep-Thought), and dinky.
23:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> Look Around You series 2!
23:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> I wish I had it!
23:00:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes! The comedy program slightly worse than Look Around You series 1!
23:00:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> At least series 1 is on YouTube!
23:01:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Bournemouth was a computer so clever it had to be kept in a cage to stop it escaping.
23:01:29 <Sgeo> I'm sure that clip is on YouTube
23:01:33 <Sgeo> I've seen it, so
23:01:40 <elliott> IIRC.
23:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnNSvzvY6VE
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, hmm. Remember it vaguely.
23:02:25 <Sgeo> I think more languages shoud have dual-pane REPLs like DrRacket
23:02:30 <elliott> I'd call it ninja, were it not so cliche.
23:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, explain.
23:02:39 <elliott> Maybe I'll call it REAL-ULTIMATE-POWER.
23:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, ANGY
23:02:51 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, definitions separate from REPL entry
23:02:55 <elliott> fizzie: Got a list of every named object in H2G2?
23:03:12 <Sgeo> So you can just edit the definitions without retyping them or copy-paste
23:03:22 <Sgeo> And without having a file to store the program open
23:03:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, oh, AKA @'s source editor.
23:04:00 <elliott> "Yeah, @ did it first ... or is that will do it later..."
23:04:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I should call it Hotblack Desatio.
23:05:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:05:20 <Sgeo> PLaneT sounds great, but... I think centralization shouldn't be the only answer to module management
23:08:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
23:12:19 <cheater99> Sgeo: i forgot it, what was it about? remind me
23:12:56 <Sgeo> DS9's was a murderer who escaped death by entering other people's minds, and was killed
23:13:04 <Sgeo> (sorry for spoilers)
23:13:23 <cheater99> ds9 and spoilers? ahahahah
23:13:24 <cheater99> dude
23:13:28 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:45 <elliott> cheater99: what's so funny, ds9 is incredibly linear
23:14:05 <elliott> make: pkg-config: Command not found
23:14:22 <Sgeo> FT-1'f jnf Nahovf jnf haxvyynoyr, naq gnxvat bire crbcyr. Ur riraghnyyl rfpncrq, ohg jnf gevpxrq vagb tbvat bagb n sebmra cynarg.
23:14:31 <cheater99> elliott: saying "i spoiled ds9 for you" is like saying "i threw away your two week old pizza leftovers, you can't eat them anymore"
23:14:53 <elliott> Did you know that Snape killed Dumbledore/!??!.
23:15:00 <cheater99> it's not like he told us what's on the desert planet in star trek iv
23:15:10 <elliott> (the answer is Khan)
23:15:16 <cheater99> no, the answer is
23:15:19 <elliott> SG-1's was Anubis was unkillable, and taking over people. He eventually escaped, but was tricked into going onto a frozen planet.
23:15:24 <elliott> Sgeo: fixed that for you
23:15:33 <cheater99> oh him
23:15:56 <cheater99> he was boring
23:16:28 <cheater99> i liked how his avatar in the higher plane was a rotund banker
23:17:25 <Sgeo> Does anyone sane use Insert Lambda in DrRacket?
23:17:56 <cheater99> what if they're sane but they use it to inflict pain on other people who later have to work with that code?
23:18:06 <zzo38> No, Snape did not killed Dumbledore. I did (accidentally)
23:18:12 <cheater99> there's a reason why i write production code with haskell
23:19:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Sure.
23:19:21 <elliott> Unicode lambdas are nice.
23:19:44 <elliott> THE BENEFITS OF LAPTOPS
23:21:22 <Gregor> That's why my preferred means of getting babies is theft.
23:21:35 <cheater99> this is very funny
23:21:43 <Sgeo> λ
23:21:53 <elliott> Gregor: Before they're born?
23:22:08 <zzo38> Before their parents are born?
23:22:20 <elliott> Gregor: I have this mental image of you pulling fetuses out of vaginas now and keeping them all in your lair, laughing manically.
23:22:27 <elliott> It is possibly the best mental image I have ever had
23:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, incidentally, are you really anosmic?
23:23:32 <elliott> ==> ed - config.h < config.h.ed
23:23:33 <elliott> i approve
23:24:06 <cheater99> i have taken all the numbers under 24 million, and grouped them in groups of 24. then i took the 1st, 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, ... 23rd number off those. that's 8 numbers, and if the nth number is a prime number, the bit is 1. i have put this string of bytes in a wave file, and the output is.. white noise?
23:24:41 <elliott> cheater99: ZOMG WHAT IS RANDOMNESS
23:24:42 <zzo38> cheater99: Why did you do that?
23:24:51 <elliott> there are spiral forms if you render the distribution a certain way though IIRC
23:24:54 <elliott> oerjan probably knows more
23:25:03 <cheater99> yes, google "primzahlenkreuz"
23:25:06 <cheater99> that's why i did 24
23:25:24 * Sgeo wonders how difficult it would be to implement a Python subset in Racket
23:25:26 <cheater99> someone came up to me with this idea, i immediately called BS on it
23:25:29 <elliott> Sgeo: been done iirc
23:25:31 <Sgeo> Erm, implement is the wrong word
23:25:33 <elliott> someone did some denotational semantics thing
23:25:37 <Sgeo> Have as a #lang
23:25:56 <cheater99> but i did this silly little calculation, and it proved interesting.
23:26:03 * Sgeo doesn't really know what denotational semantics is :(
23:26:06 <elliott> Interesting as ... white noise?
23:26:22 <cheater99> exactly this amount of interesting.
23:26:27 <elliott> console.c:144: error: ‘rl_mark’ undeclared (first use in this function)
23:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: Compiling mcmap on OS X needs you to manually use GNU readline, FWIW.
23:26:42 <elliott> Since it comes with libedit as libreadline, I think.
23:27:05 <cheater99> why does there have to be readline drama
23:27:09 <elliott> what
23:27:12 <cheater99> all those people are out of their minds
23:27:14 <elliott> ...
23:27:18 <elliott> there is no readline drama
23:27:20 <elliott> what the fuck are you talking about
23:27:22 <cheater99> of course there is
23:27:45 <cheater99> every second language that has an interpreter abandons readline and goes for some sort of alternative bs
23:27:56 <cheater99> because it's gpl
23:27:59 <elliott> yes.
23:28:01 <elliott> perfectly reasonable.
23:28:08 <elliott> libedit is very common and well-known
23:28:10 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty much accurate.
23:28:13 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover_: Hyposmic.
23:28:28 <elliott> cheater99: is it unthinkable to you that some people like licensing code under something that isn't gpl?
23:28:32 <elliott> thus preventing them using readline?
23:28:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, what does that cause?
23:28:55 <elliott> map.c: In function ‘map_init’:
23:28:55 <elliott> map.c:107: error: nested functions are disabled, use -fnested-functions to re-enable
23:28:55 <elliott> map.c: In function ‘map_draw_player_marker’:
23:28:57 <elliott> map.c:399: error: nested functions are disabled, use -fnested-functions to re-enable
23:28:59 <elliott> fizzie: ^
23:29:20 <elliott> world.c: In function ‘world_thread’:
23:29:21 <elliott> world.c:460: warning: no return statement in function returning non-void
23:29:29 <cheater99> elliott: this is too complicated for my simple mind
23:30:13 <elliott> fizzie: return NULL fixes that.
23:30:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover_: It doesn't "cause" anything, it's a symptom, it's a reduced sense of smell.
23:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, oh, of course.
23:30:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: PRINTER IS EXPLODING).
23:32:20 <elliott> Come on mcmap, you can connect.
23:35:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:44:38 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
23:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, will they spare your organs when they make their harvest?
23:45:33 <oerjan> his organs will clearly be saved
23:45:46 <oerjan> now where and which purpose i cannot say
23:45:55 <oerjan> *for which
23:47:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Clearly they'll keep him so that when they get bored after crushing all the dissidents they have someone to RFID tag everyone else.
23:47:56 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:52:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: WHAT SHOULD I DO THAT IS INTERESTING
23:54:21 <quintopia> isn't there an exploration mode in MC that doesn't let you mod stuff?
23:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> There is one planned.
23:55:23 <elliott> quintopia: There's an adventure mode.
23:55:28 <elliott> Mod presumably you mean change blocks.
23:55:32 <elliott> Adventure mode is pre-scripted stuff.
23:55:33 <quintopia> yes
23:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> i.e. it will never happen until Notch gets his act together.
23:55:42 <elliott> I don't see why you'd want to explore and do absolutely nothing.
23:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Which will never happen full stop.
23:55:46 <elliott> You can; just never hit any blocks.
23:55:56 <elliott> But that would be _boring_.
23:56:23 <quintopia> well. i was thinking you could make a true 3d maze and just trust everyone who plays it not to cheat :P
23:57:27 <quintopia> but it would be better if you had a 3d maze where hitting blocks was part of it...but can you even place indestructible blocks? i didn't think you could...
23:57:41 <elliott> quintopia: well obsidian takes 30s or so to mine even with a diamond pickaxe
23:57:44 <elliott> with hand ... minutes
23:57:52 <elliott> quintopia: you can place bedrock as a server op though
23:57:54 <elliott> which is indestructable
23:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> But you can't remove it, so god help you if you place a block wrongly.
23:58:55 <quintopia> so you could just make a map out of bedrock i guess...
23:59:24 <Sgeo> elliott, is Racket's functional reactive stuff a good way to learn functional reactive programming?
23:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> Also, bedrock is destructible in the sense that it doesn't actually have infinite resistance to explosions, just mind-bogglingly high.
23:59:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Doubtful.
←2010-12-28 2010-12-29 2010-12-30→ ↑2010 ↑all