←2010-12-29 2010-12-30 2010-12-31→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> So I suppose you could make a creeper farm or something, then set them all off at once once you had 186000 of them.
00:01:15 <Ilari> How do 186000 creepers explode?
00:01:38 <elliott> Ilari: Explosively.
00:03:18 <Ilari> What's their kapow/gram ratio?
00:03:41 <Sgeo> elliott, so what's a good way to learn?
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00:03:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Three goats and a pile of ratios.
00:04:01 <elliott> Ilari: Approximately creeper kapows to the gram. :p
00:04:16 <elliott> Creepers are 1/4 less powerful than TNT, with explosion power of 3. The harder the surrounding material, the less damaging the explosion will be. So secure homes need to be built with a stronger material to avoid creeper damage.
00:04:21 <elliott> Ilari: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion
00:04:29 <elliott> Ilari: You can work out the kapow/gram from that + explosion power = 3 :P
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00:07:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Guess what an OUTDATED GHC I am installing.
00:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have no idea!
00:07:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: 6.12.3 OH GOD
00:07:43 <elliott> (Note: GHC 7 is not meant to be used by regular people yet :P)
00:07:58 <nooga> minecraft cannons amaze me
00:08:01 <elliott> Oh wait, there's a Haskell platform package
00:08:02 <elliott> .
00:08:08 <elliott> I'll just install that.
00:08:23 <olsner> elliott: isn't there a HP beta/alpha/something for GHC 7 yet?
00:08:40 <elliott> olsner: probably
00:08:46 <elliott> nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN-CeXyTmBE
00:08:58 <elliott> olsner: but homebrew doesn't have it :)
00:09:17 <olsner> obviously...
00:09:35 <elliott> olsner: your obvious
00:10:27 <Ilari> 186000 creepers... Huh.
00:10:37 <nooga> elliott: this is awesome
00:10:46 <elliott> Ilari: Might be a BIT hard to get them into one place :P
00:10:50 <elliott> Ilari: You'd need a very very big trap.
00:11:04 <elliott> Ilari: And also a way to set them off and then get VERY FAR AWAY VERY QUICKLY.
00:11:08 <elliott> (Perhaps with a Nether portal.)
00:11:14 <olsner> elliott: btw, I was reading about L4 in the holidays... turns out it's pretty much exactly what I was going to build with my OS thingy
00:11:24 <elliott> olsner: this is why i tried to golf your kernel
00:11:28 <elliott> olsner: to beat L4 at its own game
00:11:35 <elliott> olsner: but did you listen?!
00:12:46 <olsner> well... I did listen, I just rejected all your ideas afterwards
00:13:00 <Ilari> Even 500 resistance is apparently enough to resist any explosion that can occur...
00:15:12 <elliott> olsner: but WHY :D
00:15:13 <Ilari> 100k explosions occuring at once won't help if damage isn't cumulative...
00:17:24 <nooga> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=P78EgF_u1b1Ac68qVGQ4aPUxKZk9QNha7b6ooPb8gAQ
00:17:36 <oerjan> <elliott> olsner: but homebrew doesn't have it :) <-- * suddenly realizes what this macho mebrew talk was about
00:17:47 <elliott> lol
00:17:57 <elliott> oerjan: :-D
00:18:14 <elliott> oerjan: well OS X does use the Mach-O object format
00:18:23 <nooga> what is it all about with this Racket, what is this language? :P
00:18:28 <elliott> nooga: PLT Scheme
00:18:35 <nooga> i saw the webpage but looks like another Scheme
00:18:37 <elliott> oerjan: so one could say -- Mac Homebrew: "Mach-O, me brew"
00:18:40 <nooga> at first glance
00:18:41 <elliott> nooga: it used to be called PLT Scheme.
00:18:47 <elliott> nooga: you know of it. it's that famous one.
00:18:53 <nooga> ah
00:18:55 <elliott> they decided it wasn't very scheme any more and rebranded
00:19:36 <Ilari> Hole with lots of creepers on bottom might be nasty for who falls into it...
00:19:36 <nooga> uhm
00:19:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh! http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-December/087788.html oleg wrote that :-D
00:19:49 <elliott> Oleg writing about Peter Landin being a genius, is there anything better?
00:19:59 <elliott> Ilari: Hell, a handful of creepers is already very close to fatal even with full armour.
00:20:30 <elliott> Ilari: Have a bunch of pressure plates activating a redstone circuit that detonates a huge amount of TNT below you, going way down near bedrock, where there are 20 creepers...
00:20:39 <elliott> Ilari: Death trap, but requires a lot of rebuilding for each victim :-)
00:21:28 <nooga> how about traps with sand and water
00:21:51 <elliott> nooga: well, probably -- i don't know how to do them :-(
00:22:47 <Ilari> What about digging hole 3x3 blocks in size and two deep. Filling the bottom with TNT blocks and above with something like sand. Then rig a trigger on the center block on ground level...
00:26:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Ponzi is better than Racket, anyway.
00:26:48 <elliott> Ilari: Do you play Minecraft? If not, your evil genius is going SORELY to waste not doing so.
00:27:19 * Sgeo is uncertain whether that's a joke
00:27:20 * Sgeo wikis
00:27:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Ponzi Scheme is the name I have eternally reserved for my Scheme dialect.
00:27:51 <elliott> It's just SO PERFECT.
00:27:59 <elliott> (1) Ponzi is memorable and short, and a good name for binaries;
00:28:02 <elliott> (2) The pun is awesome.
00:28:13 <Ilari> Pressure plate to detonate TNT block immediately behind wall/floor/ceilling would probably be bad enough anyway...
00:28:31 <Sgeo> (3) It will be talked about a lot, and get people interested, but never pay dividends
00:28:44 <elliott> Ilari: But rather a pain to put back after some poor sap dies.
00:28:48 <oerjan> clearly ponzi scheme is destined to take over the world. and then cause its collapse.
00:29:52 <elliott> the one disadvantage is googlability :D
00:30:00 <elliott> but then, tech things tend to rank higher than their non-tech meanings on google...
00:30:04 <elliott> nerds rule the internet
00:30:26 <Ilari> Or some TNT blocks hidden behind a wall and a creeper there...
00:30:52 <Ilari> Oh, put the creeper also behind a wall...
00:31:05 <elliott> Ilari: At this point, I think I'd just start stabbing people when they walk into my house.
00:31:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: ponzi's scheme paid dividends.
00:32:00 <elliott> that's why it was perfectly all right!
00:32:08 <oerjan> of course!
00:32:15 * elliott worries briefly about why oerjan knows about ponzi's scheme
00:32:26 <oerjan> elliott: wikipedia?
00:32:37 <elliott> oerjan: CUT IT OUT, WITH YOUR LOGIC
00:32:43 <elliott> and your, and, and your LOGIC
00:33:11 <elliott> oerjan: you know what makes me sad?
00:33:12 <Sgeo> I'm trying to talk about hotswapping, they're now talking about eval
00:33:20 <elliott> scheme's inconsistency with mathematical operators.
00:33:35 <elliott> > (+)
00:33:35 <elliott> 0
00:33:35 <elliott> > (*)
00:33:36 <elliott> 1
00:33:38 <elliott> but (-) gives an error
00:33:40 <elliott> and (- x) = -x
00:33:42 <elliott> rather than x
00:33:44 <elliott> (-) should = 0 of course
00:33:55 <elliott> and (/) should result in 1
00:33:57 <elliott> BUT THE WORST
00:34:01 <elliott> (min) and (max) are errors
00:34:06 <elliott> (min) should = infinity
00:34:08 <elliott> and (max) = -infinity
00:34:11 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see why, they're not monoid operations
00:34:11 <elliott> for obvious reasons
00:34:21 <oerjan> (- and /)
00:34:30 <oerjan> min and max i might agree
00:34:30 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just being silly
00:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: but it would be more consistent to have (op x (op)) = x
00:34:42 <elliott> for all op
00:34:44 <elliott> (and x obvs)
00:35:07 <elliott> oerjan: (and also you could use it to implement a fold where you don't have to specify the zero :))
00:35:19 <elliott> in fact such a fold could just be (apply op lst)
00:36:16 <elliott> [[Knowingly entering a Ponzi scheme, even at the last round of the scheme, can be rational economically if there is a reasonable expectation that government or other deep pockets will bail out those participating in the Ponzi scheme.[2]]]
00:36:19 <elliott> that's just silly :)
00:36:20 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was some language where you could register identity elements for functions in that way
00:36:37 <oerjan> perhaps one of the CASes
00:37:14 <elliott> probably
00:37:53 <elliott> can i just say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania is the most amazing thing ever
00:38:17 * oerjan learned about that from a Phantom comic
00:48:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Want to invest in code-money with Ponzi Scheme Developments?
00:48:23 <elliott> (I figure I can develop this on a Ponzi scheme model, using payments of code to pay other people who want implementations of that feature.)
00:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> XD
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00:50:00 <elliott> Oh man, this display has so much better colours than my old laptop.
00:50:05 <elliott> It is insane how differently things look.
00:51:29 <elliott> Sgeo: have you played the PLT GAMES yet
00:51:38 <Sgeo> No?
00:56:27 <elliott> Sgeo: it's in the racket folder
00:56:33 <elliott> PREPARE FOR AMAZING
00:58:10 <Sgeo> ...
00:59:32 <elliott> Sgeo: CARD - MOTHER - GAMES - FUCKIN' - PLT - YEAH
01:00:03 <Sgeo> Is it suppose to show that these sorts of games are easy to implement?
01:01:31 <elliott> Sgeo: I have no idea why it exists.
01:01:38 <elliott> Presumably as a demo of ... its abilities?
01:01:58 <Sgeo> I think Factor and Racket are related
01:02:10 <Sgeo> Are we sure Slava isn't part of the PLT team?
01:03:25 <elliott> Sgeo: Umm ... no he isn't.
01:03:37 <Sgeo> I was joking, kind of
01:03:56 <Sgeo> Both Racket and Factor seem to love the ability to include other languages inside itself
01:04:23 <Sgeo> Racket and Factor both have slideshow libraries
01:04:31 <Sgeo> Documentation DSLs
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01:08:42 <elliott> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that if your whole screen goes pink that's not a good thing.
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01:12:40 <elliott> hi j-invariant
01:16:00 <j-invariant> hey
01:16:22 <j-invariant> elliott: it takes about 3 mins (= forever) to typecheck a single definition I have now :/
01:16:36 <elliott> j-invariant: wow :-D
01:16:46 <j-invariant> not even a proof search, just Definition make_product : Hom X A -> Hom X B -> Hom X AxB
01:16:51 <elliott> j-invariant: seriously? wow
01:16:55 <elliott> j-invariant: how big is the printed term?
01:16:57 <j-invariant> := fun f g => pi1 (pi1 ... f g))
01:17:02 <j-invariant> oh never thought of checking that
01:17:23 <j-invariant> yeah it's not big at all
01:17:46 <elliott> j-invariant: huh
01:17:50 <elliott> j-invariant: how good is your machine :-P
01:18:09 <j-invariant> well everything happens quickly except for this single definition
01:18:21 <j-invariant> http://coq.pastebin.com/MJCUF7MT
01:19:22 <j-invariant> I think internally, it's got a situation like to A x = A' y to check, and it unfolds A to get B C D and it unfolds all those for layers and layers and them normalizes these huge terms
01:20:15 <elliott> yeah
01:20:26 <elliott> i don't think there's anything you can do
01:20:32 <elliott> j-invariant: are you low on ram? maybe that would help
01:20:40 <elliott> if it's expanding REALLY huge terms :p
01:20:41 <j-invariant> it's not very promising.. what if you wanted to actually USE this stuff?
01:21:33 <j-invariant> top says 100% CPU but it's only getting up to 3.3% MEM
01:21:40 <elliott> j-invariant: why would you do anything useful in Coq :D
01:21:49 <j-invariant> oh now it's climbing up to 7%
01:24:12 <j-invariant> its still going :/
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01:27:11 <j-invariant> elliott: I still like this idea of having a category theory language that checks with Coq to make sure everything is sound
01:27:28 <j-invariant> elliott: although I only know how to make simple data types in catgeory theory and they're no fun!
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01:31:04 <j-invariant> left object nat with pr is
01:31:08 <j-invariant> 0: 1 -> nat
01:31:11 <j-invariant> s: nat -> nat
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01:31:20 <j-invariant> end object;
01:31:29 <j-invariant> elliott: that's natural numbers and primitive recursion
01:31:36 <elliott> j-invariant: nice
01:31:39 <elliott> j-invariant: what are lists :-P
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01:32:06 <j-invariant> right object colist(X) with coprl is delist: colist -> coprod(1,prod(X,colist))
01:32:09 <j-invariant> end object;
01:32:17 <elliott> j-invariant: any non-co version? :p
01:33:02 <j-invariant> left object list(a) with foldr is
01:33:07 <j-invariant> nil: a -> list(a)
01:33:11 <j-invariant> oops
01:33:14 <j-invariant> nil: 1 -> list(a)
01:33:18 <j-invariant> cons: a -> list(a)
01:33:20 <j-invariant> end object;
01:33:34 <j-invariant> no that's wrong
01:33:49 <j-invariant> that was maybe
01:34:36 <j-invariant> cons: prod(a,list(a)) -> list(a)
01:35:00 <j-invariant> elliott: best one is this:
01:35:00 <j-invariant> right object exp(a,b) with curry is
01:35:00 <j-invariant> eval: prod(exp,a) -> b
01:35:01 <j-invariant> end object;
01:35:08 <j-invariant> they define lambda
01:35:14 <elliott> j-invariant: that is awesome.
01:35:16 <j-invariant> (in order to do ackermann)
01:35:31 <elliott> j-invariant: have you actually implemented this syntax?
01:35:38 <j-invariant> no this is someone else
01:35:57 <j-invariant> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/CPL
01:36:07 <elliott> j-invariant: aww, boring! prior art is teh suck :)
01:36:20 <elliott> i'd like to live in a bubble where nobody has done anything so i get to figure it all out myself
01:37:29 <Sgeo> Time for more DS9
01:37:35 <Sgeo> It is supposed to improve soon, right?
01:38:17 <elliott> ds9 is good all the way through. but most especially in the later seasons
01:38:27 <elliott> (note: if you think "oh i'll just skip to the later seasons!" you fail everything forever)
01:38:50 <Sgeo> When does the Dominion War start?
01:38:57 * Sgeo <3 Odo
01:41:07 <j-invariant> elliott: you know Charity
01:41:14 <elliott> j-invariant: I know of it, yes
01:41:19 <j-invariant> I think it's basically the same as that
01:41:21 <j-invariant> except nicer
01:41:38 <j-invariant> charity is so ugly
01:41:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Season two is when the DOminion are introduced.
01:42:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Then it takes until season five and six for the war machine to actually explode.
01:42:15 <elliott> Sgeo: It's a slow series, live with it.
01:42:43 <Sgeo> elliott, but are many of the episodes before 5 and 6 about the Dominion?
01:43:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Plenty, it's all a long, slow buildup... but seriously, there are good non-Dominion episodes.
01:43:10 <elliott> Stick with the series.
01:43:14 <elliott> j-invariant: is charity category based?
01:43:15 <elliott> I never knew
01:43:23 <elliott> huh it is
01:43:45 <elliott> j-invariant: this page has always amused me http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/wofm/wofm1.html
01:43:51 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah charity is totally 50% practical
01:43:56 <j-invariant> yeah lol
01:44:01 <elliott> what with its complete lack of IO and strong termination requirement
01:44:13 <elliott> and lack of any development or libraries at all :)
01:44:40 <elliott> j-invariant: can you not have a constructor A->B->C in category theory?
01:44:43 <elliott> I guess it all has to be A->B
01:44:45 <elliott> that seems kind of ugly
01:46:19 <j-invariant> did anyone answer zzos question?
01:46:32 <j-invariant> Is there a sub-turing language that has an undecidable halting problem?
01:46:43 <elliott> j-invariant: he answered it himself
01:46:46 <elliott> no, there is not
01:46:49 <j-invariant> why not?
01:46:51 <elliott> or was it that you answered it
01:46:55 <elliott> j-invariant: well
01:47:02 <elliott> j-invariant: there was that cheat answer (he?) gave
01:47:06 <elliott> so "yes" technically i guess
01:47:09 <elliott> but no interesting ones :)
01:48:16 <elliott> i dunno
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01:52:48 <j-invariant> elliott: btw CPL is a single category
01:53:06 <j-invariant> elliott: and it's equivalent to simple lambda calculus
01:53:21 <elliott> j-invariant: ah ... so those are not actually defining categories?
01:53:25 <elliott> well
01:53:27 <elliott> i guess that makes no sense
01:53:35 <j-invariant> elliott: would be interesting to have one that lets you use multiple categories and equivalent to dependent types
01:53:35 <elliott> j-invariant: the problem with category theory is that it's basically a meta-type-system
01:53:40 <elliott> and generally you want to work in a type system :)
01:53:56 <j-invariant> yeah I have been thinking about the idea of category theory as a meta-type-system
01:54:09 <j-invariant> so you have (terms : types) :: CATEGORY THEORY
01:54:22 <j-invariant> types make sure your syntax is good, category theory makes sure your semantics are good ?
01:54:29 <j-invariant> (i.e. that the program is correct)
01:54:46 <elliott> maybe
01:54:53 <elliott> j-invariant: you need to make... METAGORY THEORY
01:55:20 <elliott> ((terms : types) :: CATEGORY THEORY) :::::::::::: <H1><BOLD><BIG><BIG><BLINK><MARQUEE>METAGORY THEORY</HTML>
01:55:23 <j-invariant> llol
01:56:56 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.lfcs.inf.ed.ac.uk/reports/87/ECS-LFCS-87-38/ this is the lang that haskell thing implements apparently
01:57:09 <elliott> "Ph.D. thesis - Price £7.00" <- fuck that
01:57:11 <elliott> anyone wanna pirate it
01:57:18 <j-invariant> heh you can get it off Haginos ste
01:57:25 <j-invariant> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=
01:57:29 <elliott> j-invariant: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=
01:57:30 <elliott> indeed
02:03:47 <Sgeo> I think I've seen this episode before
02:04:01 <Sgeo> elliott, is HtDP decent?
02:04:13 <elliott> Sgeo: I've never read it and I don't care.
02:04:16 <j-invariant> HtDP sucks
02:04:31 <elliott> j-invariant: really, why?
02:04:34 <j-invariant> it's all faux pragmatism and getting stuff "done"
02:05:11 <elliott> sicccppppppppp
02:05:31 <elliott> j-invariant: HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY
02:06:15 <j-invariant> heh
02:06:45 <elliott> (RIP /prog/ being interesting some time -- some other time)
02:09:37 <Sgeo> hm?
02:11:53 <elliott> Sgeo: what?
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02:22:26 <Sgeo> What's wrong with /prog/?
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02:22:36 <Sgeo> Oh wait, you don't mean /r/programming do you
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02:28:19 <zzo38> If you have accessed by gopher server by a proxy, it will not work anymore, except Floodgap (there is two reasons I did not block Floodgap). Direct connection is prefer. If you do not want direct connection, you can use Tor.
02:31:02 <elliott_> Sgeo: Indeed, "/prog/" is not the same thing as "/r/programming" ... but /r/programming is terrible too.
02:31:05 <elliott_> zzo38: Why can I not use a proxy?
02:32:00 <zzo38> elliott_: I blocked the proxies from accessing it to prevent the gopher service from being indexed by Google. (You can still use Veronica to search it if you want to, though.)
02:32:15 <elliott_> zzo38: What is wrong with Google indexing it?
02:33:52 <elliott_> j-invariant: Our slogan is: “category theory can provide a better and more natural understanding of mathematical objects than set theory”, so we use it to guide our tour around the world of data types. Note that we do not mean to abandon set theory by this. We will still heavily rely on it, but our intuition should not be obstructed by it.
02:33:56 <elliott_> j-invariant: that is the least catchiest slogan ever
02:34:01 <elliott_> *catchy
02:34:18 <zzo38> elliott_: Two things. One thing is I don't want Google to index it (use Veronica if you want to search gopher). The other thing is the proxy requests indexed by Google waste power (but it is OK for Veronica and other things like that to index it, I am OK with these things).
02:34:37 <elliott_> zzo38: Why do you not want Google to index it?
02:35:14 <zzo38> elliott_: What do *you* think??
02:35:33 <elliott_> zzo38: I don't know. I am asking why you do not want Google to index it.
02:35:51 <j-invariant> elliott_: LOL
02:35:52 <j-invariant> what's that from?
02:35:56 <elliott_> j-invariant: this thesis you mentioned
02:35:59 <elliott_> j-invariant: with CPL
02:36:03 <j-invariant> ahh
02:36:25 <elliott_> CATEGORY INDUSTRIES -- category theory can provide a better and more natural understanding of mathematical objects than set theory
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02:36:31 <elliott_> nope, still not very ctachy
02:36:32 <elliott_> *catchy
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02:37:04 <zzo38> elliott_: That isn't their job. One thing Google is not suited for gopher search, and I don't particularly like Google and those other service, anyways. It is OK if Google indexes HTML pages linking to my gopher, that is OK with me and I have no problem with that.
02:37:14 <zzo38> If you want to search gopher, please use a gopher search service, such as Veronica.
02:37:27 <elliott_> zzo38: Why do you not like Google and other indexing services?
02:38:46 <j-invariant> zzo38: why not like google?
02:39:26 <zzo38> Actually there are many thing I do not like about Google (not only the search engine, but other things too). I also do not want Copyscape to be able to find it (Copyscape uses both Google and Yahoo! to search), and I don't want someone to find the proxy page and not learn about the protocol.
02:39:38 <zzo38> And there are many more reasons that I will not list here it takes too much time.
02:39:44 <elliott_> zzo38: What are the things you do not like about Google?
02:39:56 <elliott_> And what is wrong with copyscape?
02:40:44 <zzo38> Well, one thing is the search engine. I don't like the way they tried to make it much more user-friendly, or they try to steal everyone's information (even if before they tried not to, they still do now), etc.....
02:41:24 <elliott_> zzo38: What do you mean by steal everyone's information?
02:41:26 <zzo38> If you want to use Copyscape you can use it. But I have some files protected by Anti-Copyscape (a program I wrote).
02:41:29 <elliott_> And what is wrong with user-friendly?
02:41:38 <elliott_> Why did you write anti-copyscape?
02:41:46 <elliott_> I do not understand what is wrong with copyscape.
02:42:19 <zzo38> elliott_: Actually the original reason I wrote Anti-Copyscape is that someone had no PDF reader and I wanted to copy it out for them. The PDF was protected by Copyscape.
02:42:38 <elliott_> zzo38: Excuse me? Copyscape is just a search engine.
02:42:42 <elliott_> They do not protect PDFs.
02:42:50 <elliott_> zzo38: You must be thinking of something else.
02:43:04 <zzo38> But there is only one file on my service affected by Anti-Copyscape, and it is not linked anywhere, so it doesn't matter much.
02:43:09 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyscape As you can see here they do not do any PDF things.
02:43:13 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/et6tb/anyone_else_see_eating_food_as_a_chore/
02:43:36 <zzo38> elliott_: Actually they do PDF, since Google does PDF, so does Copyscape.
02:43:46 <Sgeo> Someone who understands me!
02:43:48 <elliott_> zzo38: OK, but I do not know what protected means here.
02:43:54 <elliott_> zzo38: How did it prevent you from copying the file?
02:44:53 <zzo38> elliott_: There is PDF encryption (anyone without PDF software cannot read it), but that was not the reason for writing Anti-Copyscape. Basically, there is a "Protected by Copyscape" sign.
02:45:30 <elliott_> zzo38: OK, well, what does it matter if someone put that there? All it means is that they'll search with Copyscape for plagiarised works based on theirs every now and then.
02:45:38 <elliott_> What does Anti-Copyscape do?
02:45:59 <zzo38> elliott_: Forces the user to enter a number before entering. (It tells the user what number to type in)
02:46:15 <elliott_> zzo38: What does that accomplish?
02:47:19 <zzo38> It also disable indexing as well.
02:47:27 <elliott_> zzo38: What does having to enter a number accomplish?
02:49:21 <zzo38> elliott_: Nothing much. But that's old and I really have no use for it anymore. I wrote it only for someone's request because they wanted to access a specific PDF file but they had no program to access it.
02:49:37 <elliott_> Okay. Did they request you write Anti-Copyscape?
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02:56:36 <Sgeo> "This episode was ranked last in Entertainment Weekly's evaluation of the first two seasons of the show.
02:56:36 <Sgeo> "
02:56:40 <Sgeo> WTF? I liked it
02:56:40 <zzo38> elliott_: No; they couldn't have known about the Copyscape without seeing the PDF document. So I just had to make an assumption.
02:56:50 <elliott_> Sgeo: What show.
02:56:58 <Sgeo> DS9
02:57:01 <Sgeo> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Move_Along_Home
02:57:02 <elliott_> Sgeo: What episode.
02:57:26 <elliott_> Sgeo: BTW you liking a thing is inversely correlated with it being good.
02:57:46 <Sgeo> I like Smalltalk!
02:58:48 <elliott_> Sgeo: Probably for all the wrong reasons.
02:59:19 <zzo38> (If they could see the PDF document, they would not need me to do this, isn't it?)
03:01:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you like the wrong reasons for all the wrong reasons?
03:06:07 <elliott_> http://manifestoism.com/post/2183131490/manifestoist-manifesto Manifestoist Manifesto.
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03:07:43 <elliott_> Right, if someone wants to stop me making some kind of linkblahg to replace /r/programming so I can sleep at night, now is the time.
03:08:02 <j-invariant> linkblahg??
03:08:05 <j-invariant> on reddit or what
03:08:15 <zzo38> elliott: What does linkblahg means? And what are you doing anyways?
03:08:39 <elliott_> j-invariant: linkblahg = linkblog = a bunch of summarised links and short commentary with an RSS feed.
03:08:53 <elliott_> think http://chneukirchen.org/trivium/, except cooler because it's me.
03:09:15 <elliott_> admittedly i doubt i'll be able to stop myself posting long-form crap but at the same time my laziness will ensure that it is vanishingly rare
03:09:57 <zzo38> I don't really care whether or not you make that. Decide by your own opinion, please.
03:10:06 <elliott_> http://excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html this is VERY cool! 16-bit Forth CPU in _200 lines of Verilog_! w/ TCP/IP stack, system can fit in 8 kbytes!
03:10:21 <Sgeo> What's wrong with /r/programming ?
03:10:25 <elliott_> http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/invaders.fs.html space invaders!
03:10:27 <elliott_> Sgeo: it's terrible.
03:10:33 <j-invariant> the thing about reddit is the comments are stupid
03:10:40 <j-invariant> and everything crap gets upvoted
03:10:42 <elliott_> it used to be excellent but now it's all uninteresting bullshit
03:10:45 <elliott_> and all the comments are retarded
03:10:51 <j-invariant> y;eah it used to be a great site
03:11:00 <elliott_> /r/haskell is still really good - but is of course haskell specific
03:11:08 <elliott_> if /r/programming was as consistently good as /r/haskell I wouldn't mind at all
03:11:12 <Sgeo> It's how I found out about Factor iirc... or at least where I first heard of it
03:11:27 <elliott_> Sgeo: from our perspectives that is not a good thing as you have not shut up about it since
03:11:30 <Sgeo> Someone said that they liked Factor and J, but they were frustratingly ungoogleable
03:11:49 <Sgeo> elliott_, I've slowed down about it
03:12:07 <j-invariant> elliott_: I don't like the commericalish/markety silliness that is taking over haskell
03:12:22 <elliott_> j-invariant: yeah, well ... I think it peaked a while back and is slowing down now
03:12:25 <j-invariant> "Download Haskell" instead of "Download GHC", "apps" etc..
03:12:34 <elliott_> j-invariant: right yes download haskell pissed me off
03:12:39 <elliott_> j-invariant: nothing wrong with "Download Haskell Platform"
03:12:41 <elliott_> which is what it /is/
03:12:54 <elliott_> Haskell Platform as a brand name I can live with ... the capital P makes it ok imo
03:13:26 <elliott_> anyway the link blog would basically be like all the silly links i post here, except with more coherent commentry, more often, and in a feed :P
03:15:13 <j-invariant> elliott_: you know I feel like the web could be more useful than it is right now, I'm not sure if that's because I just don't know about good sites though
03:15:45 <coppro> useful in what sense?
03:16:43 <elliott_> j-invariant: well. the basic problem is that crap increases. so you need a filter, an aggregator to let you know what's good. the problem is that: filters run by one person can't keep up with the amount of content, and fundamentally rely on *other* filters (directly or indirectly, to find the content); and filters run by multiple people often get drowned out by noise as time goes on and they increase in popularity (e.g. reddit)
03:17:15 <coppro> not only that
03:17:29 <coppro> but each person has a different filter criterion
03:17:54 <elliott_> coppro: well, yes. but it's easy enough to be your own meta-filter (lol Metafilter) on a filter that matches closely enough
03:17:58 <elliott_> which /r/programming was circa 2007
03:18:03 <elliott_> since you can basically do it in real-time
03:18:14 <zzo38> Is there any Free (as in speech) FPGA? Is there any other hardware programming languages?
03:18:21 <elliott_> MetaFilter is actually quite nice incidentally, but it's rather generalised and so more of a timewaster than anything else
03:18:33 <elliott_> zzo38: VHDL and Verilog are the only ones I know of.
03:23:08 <zzo38> I would like to see one that you write the hardware program in terms of gates and macros of gates, and that you can do preprocessing with powerful.
03:24:11 <elliott_> I preprocess with powerful all day.
03:33:10 <variable> Increasing generality: finite automata < pushdown automata < linear bounded automata < Turing machines I get what one first and last are
03:33:16 <variable> what are the middle two?
03:34:43 <j-invariant> what are pushdown automata
03:35:10 <variable> j-invariant, that is my question
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03:35:29 <j-invariant> finite automata which carries around a stack
03:36:26 <variable> and linear bounded automata ?
03:37:32 <variable> A turing machine is just a automata with unbounded memory
03:37:41 <variable> how could memory be linearly bounded?
03:38:48 <zzo38> Is there any Free (as in speech) FPGA or similar devices?
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03:46:46 <Gregor> Pornography: Are we getting enough of it? A new study by Future Lechers of America suggests that we are not.
03:48:34 <elliott_> hi
03:50:35 <elliott_> "Please donate to keep Wikipedia free" I FUCKING HATE THIS TEXT
03:50:39 <elliott_> it suggests -
03:50:40 <elliott_> don't donate
03:50:43 <elliott_> and we'll start charging
03:50:45 <elliott_> ads all over the place
03:50:46 <elliott_> bullshit
03:50:49 <elliott_> fuck you wikimedia
03:52:54 <variable> elliott_, adblock
03:53:54 <elliott_> variable: irrelevant
03:54:02 <elliott_> variable: whether i see them or not it's still stupid as fuck
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03:59:38 <elliott> SO ANYWAY,
03:59:43 <elliott> the back of my copy of SICP
03:59:49 <elliott> refers to Hal Abelson as
04:00:00 <elliott> a Class of 1922 Professor
04:00:03 <elliott> it is actually 1992
04:00:12 <elliott> but i prefer thinking that Hal Abelson is like 100 years old
04:00:19 <elliott> and thank the back cover for this exciting alternate history
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04:13:40 <elliott> `pastequotes
04:13:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19947
04:22:57 * Sgeo WTFs at some of those
04:24:15 <variable> (23:14:15) A?? ???: ??? - want to write a program in a new language I invented? TOD?
04:24:15 <variable> (23:17:05) B?? ???: Sure
04:24:15 <variable> (23:17:53) A?? ???: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD
04:24:15 <variable> (23:20:48) B?? ???: I'M NOT WRITING A PROGRAM IN THAT LANGUAGE
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04:26:36 <elliott> variable: bahaha
04:26:42 <elliott> Sgeo: What's the WTF
04:27:18 <Sgeo> Some of them aren't that funny, I guess. Just weird
04:27:51 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not meant to be funny, it's meant to be amusing.
04:28:21 <variable> 66) <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
04:28:22 <variable> :-}
04:29:02 <elliott> variable: basically half our time is spent laughing at Sgeo :)
04:32:39 <Sgeo> My cat is trying to eat my hand
04:46:07 <Sgeo> Why am I still interested in Racket despite the lack of hotswapping stuff... I mean, it's theoretically doable, but I see nothing that makes it convenient
04:47:36 <j-invariant> because it's got a cool macroexpander
04:48:24 <Sgeo> And of course people in #racket had no idea what I was talking about
04:48:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Because hotswapping is a very niche feature?
04:48:47 <elliott> And I find it likely they know what hotswapping is and you just explained it terribly.
04:49:18 <Sgeo> I find it more likely that I got a bad impression based on one person
04:50:13 <coppro> Sgeo: why do you care about hotswapping all of a sudden?
04:50:37 <Sgeo> I've always cared about it. It's just that most of the languages I've obsessed over before had it.
04:50:45 <elliott> coppro: Because he's a moron who has no clue what he likes and basically just grabs onto things that are shiny, criticise things made by people many times more experienced than he is with greater expertise, basde on misconceptions, in here, for us all to see, 24/7.
04:50:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Factor doesn't have hotswapping as far as I know.
04:51:04 <Sgeo> Also, the AW stuff I was working on would have benefitted from it
04:51:09 <elliott> Nobody gives a shit.
04:52:13 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-vocabs.refresh.html
04:52:28 <elliott> That's about as "hotswapping" as Python's reload function.
04:52:38 <elliott> You have no idea what hotswapping is.
04:54:39 <Sgeo> I think it's somewhere between what you call "hotswapping" and Python's reload function
04:55:07 <coppro> do you consider Erlang to have hotswapping (both of you)?
04:55:28 <Sgeo> coppro, don't know Erlang that well, but I think so
04:59:00 <elliott> coppro: Erlang is pretty much _the only_ lang with hotswapping.
04:59:15 <elliott> Sgeo is presumably planning to write important, long-running network servers -- in which case -- god help us all.
04:59:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Please don't.
04:59:50 <Sgeo> elliott, how about a "only-important-to-the-players-of-a-game" long-running network server?
05:00:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Perhaps a component of Active Worlds going down for a few minutes will have you reflect on how much of your life you plan to spend obsessing over it.
05:00:23 <Sgeo> elliott, what does Smalltalk count as?
05:07:50 <elliott> Has anyone in here done Perl 6?
05:13:33 <coppro> not really
05:13:55 <coppro> I will look at it when they bother finishing it
05:14:45 <elliott> coppro: the spec is very close to being "final" actually
05:14:57 <elliott> just nobody wants to admit it :)
05:20:47 <coppro> yeah I know
05:21:03 <coppro> but the thing is damned hard to read
05:21:08 <coppro> it sort of assumes you know the history
05:26:07 <elliott> coppro: yeah :-P
05:26:15 <elliott> coppro: well it's better than perl 5's spec!
05:26:18 <elliott> with such nice properties as existing
05:29:30 <elliott> coppro: now let me amuse you, last person who spoke
05:29:32 <elliott> coppro: [[On a completely diffrent side note, it might be cool to have a new type of game playable on computer where all things in game are represented with ASCII like the art form just like I demonstrated up above. Imagine ASCII Castlevania, ASCII Mario Bros or ASCII Zelda. LOL just a passing thought.]]
05:29:55 <elliott> http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/132116-porting-the-original-classic-castlevania-to-the-2600/page__view__findpost__p__1593512?s=bcada80a7c4f8d16bdf1b84820d4a2c9 <-- seriously, the guy reinvents NetHack's display system in like 15 lines
05:30:18 <elliott> "And the ASCII thing was a non Atari related side thought. Like a remake of any general popular game where ALL graphics in game are represented by ASCII only. though in color though where each ASCII character is its own color."
05:30:19 <elliott> gahaaha
05:32:58 <elliott> coppro: maybe #esoteric should make its own Perl 6, a hodge-podge language consisting of everything useful/fun we can think of golfed to hell
05:34:17 <quintopia> i would have thought you'd be sleepy by now mr. hird
05:34:47 <j-invariant> elliott: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uAgda- interesting
05:34:53 <coppro> ahahahah
05:35:08 <elliott> quintopia: it's only 5:30 am ... going to bed soon though
05:35:12 <elliott> coppro: WHAT'S SO FUNNY LITTLE MAN
05:36:07 <coppro> 2 ... Ke7
05:36:09 <coppro> and winning with it
05:37:37 * Sgeo is turning into elliott
05:38:09 <coppro> no you are not
05:38:12 <elliott> Sgeo: how.
05:38:17 <elliott> i find the notion offensive
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05:38:25 <Sgeo> Not going to sleep at decent times
05:38:48 <elliott> Yes. That is what defines me.
05:39:22 <elliott> Sgeo: It's 0:38 in New York. You are ful
05:39:26 <elliott> *full of shit if you think that's late.
05:39:35 <Sgeo> elliott, I didn't eat dinner yet
05:39:45 <Sgeo> And last night, I didn't go to sleep. I was reading about Racket
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05:40:40 <elliott> coppro: IMO, this is the greatest Perl 6 feature: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/day-19-whatever/
05:40:44 <elliott> coppro: It, literally, means anything.
05:41:08 <elliott> coppro: It is a single character that can do almost anything you want, and whose meaning is completely overridable and context-dependent in every way, having no common properties between them.
05:41:25 <elliott> It is utterly hilarious (the world's first joke told with a language feature?) and yet beautiful somehow.
05:42:47 <elliott> G'night.
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05:53:37 <zzo38> Can you figure out this code golf http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?List+of+numbers+to+factor I figured it out maybe I can write 2 hint?
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05:55:40 <quintopia> zzo38: does the list of numbers differ between different programs?
05:57:09 <zzo38> The list of numbers has to be the specified list in order to solve the problem. You can make up this list of numbers using any algorithm you want to that produces this list.
05:57:38 <quintopia> so the list of numbers from the sample output is always the list/
05:59:58 <zzo38> 2 hint: * It has something to do with the root directory! * Look at the individual numbers (on the left side) more carefully!
06:02:03 <quintopia> no idea man
06:02:05 <zzo38> (you can also use a embedded solution if you prefer, this is also valid for many problems; but you might prefer not to)
06:03:01 <quintopia> i don't think you can get down to 27 chars that way :P
06:03:55 <zzo38> You are right you probably cannot do it that way, but you can try and score anyways, it just won't be the best score.
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08:05:54 <Ilari> Hmm... IPv4 allocation rate of APNIC has slowed a bit... Currently the pool is at 2.75. I guess it'll pick up after new year...
08:09:01 <Sgeo> Does it usually?
08:12:37 <Ilari> I haven't looked into that. But the days between xmas and new year tend to be slow anyway...
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08:14:44 <Ilari> Or then APNIC suprise-allocates around new years, bringing immediate X-day...
08:35:33 <Ilari> Hah... This piece of news gats IPv6 address space size wrong. First it says the number of addresses is 340 undecillion (right), but then it says "which is a 34 followed by 35 zeros". Except that 340 undecillion is 34 followed by _37_ zeros.
08:37:01 <Sgeo> Would that be the same as 340 trillion trillion trillion by any chance?
08:37:07 <Sgeo> Wait, no, that makes no sense
08:38:01 <Sgeo> Wait, just googled 340 trillion trillion trillion, and the first few hits are about IPv6
08:39:54 <Ilari> Yes.
08:40:40 <Sgeo> For every meter I travelled upwards in Second Life, there's an IPv6 address >.>
08:42:10 <Ilari> There is one IPv6 address for every possible key AES-128 has...
08:45:20 <Ilari> BTW: A while ago I patched git built-in git:// client and server to deal with IPv6 properly and sent the modifications upstream. :-)
08:46:24 <Sgeo> Ilari, you're awesome
08:48:53 <coppro> <3
08:51:33 <Ilari> Basically the problem was that neither the client or the server could parse bracket notation properly.
09:00:35 <coppro> oh
09:00:52 <coppro> how much underlying stuff to establish ipv6 connections/
09:01:10 <coppro> and can it do ipv6 DNS too?
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09:13:15 * Sgeo sighs at User Friendly
09:13:29 <Sgeo> Illiad forgot to put the "This 'toon is a repeat" thing up
09:13:38 <Sgeo> So now it's displaying pre-Y2k stris
09:13:40 <Sgeo> strips
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09:27:58 <hagb4rd> hi
09:28:27 <Sgeo> hi
09:38:58 <olsner> hmm, so strchr(':') is actually a very bad way to find the port number of an address, if you want IPv6 support
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10:10:43 <coppro> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Conservapedia
10:13:14 <j-invariant> curse those liberals!!
10:14:25 <Ilari> LOL: 8 billion IP addresses.
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10:18:46 <coppro> see also: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Conservatroll
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11:15:19 <Sgeo> Dear Notepad++: "Encode in UTF-8 without BOM" should be called "Encode in UTF-8". UTF-8 does not have a BOM.
11:18:04 <nooga> http://patrickthomson.tumblr.com/post/2499755681/the-best-debugging-story-ive-ever-heard
11:22:20 <Sgeo> Why am I not going to sleep?
11:22:44 <nooga> "Linda was developed by David Gelernter and Nicholas Carriero at Yale University and is named for Linda Lovelace, an actress in the porn movie Deep Throat, a pun on Ada's tribute to Ada Lovelace[1]."
11:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because you are using your computer?
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12:28:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, down?
12:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no,,
12:34:01 <coppro> Dear Sgeo: Unfortunately, Windows doesn't appear to subscribe to this belief
12:34:17 <coppro> (also BOMs are legal if utterly retarded in UTF-8)
12:34:34 <coppro> I actually have a script to prepend a UTF-8 BOM to deal with retarded programs
12:34:53 <coppro> (like some Windows text editors...)
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13:10:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so how goes the repair (the server is back up again)
13:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I finished it ages ago.
13:11:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... no... ?
13:11:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you must have lagged out before server saw it
13:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the stone I was smelting is all there.
13:11:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still 5 blocks missing
13:11:55 <Vorpal> sec
13:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> About 8 blocks.
13:12:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 8 blocks as cobble, no coal in there
13:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Gyaaaa
13:12:25 <Vorpal> oh another furnace
13:12:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there were 8 stone in another furnace
13:12:37 <nooga> hm
13:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that's mine.
13:12:48 <nooga> this whole former PLT-Scheme looks quite nice
13:12:59 <nooga> but i don't like it's nomenclature
13:13:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, repaired the remaining hole. want the 3 remaining stone?
13:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Not reall.
13:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> *really
13:16:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I'm sure we all have hidden away chests. But I have some pretty much mcmap-safe hide aways too.
13:16:14 <Vorpal> won't tell you any details
13:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming you either embedded the chests in stone to make them hard to see or placed them in the middle of nowhere.
13:17:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the latter. I have a file with coordinate pairs
13:17:41 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell do you have worth hiding?
13:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> TNT would seem to be about it.
13:18:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not TNT no.
13:18:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see /msg
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13:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? OBSIDIAN?
13:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> That's really not something worth keeping secret.
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13:19:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, meh. Some mystery never hurt
14:01:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is it down?
14:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> LUCH
14:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> *LUNCH
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14:47:44 <elliott> 04:34:17 <coppro> (also BOMs are legal if utterly retarded in UTF-8)
14:48:04 <elliott> coppro: Is it really legal if the inventors of UTF-8 will kill you if you do?
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15:34:15 <vinu143_> Bailout
15:34:25 <vinu143_> Happily
15:34:33 <vinu143_> Hai
15:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Bail in!
15:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sadly!
15:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bai!
15:34:44 <elliott> Bail sideways!
15:34:48 <elliott> Ambivalently!
15:34:51 <elliott> ...blah!
15:34:57 <vinu143_> Hellowww
15:35:28 <elliott> Hello world wide web!
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15:36:02 <vinu143_> elliott:
15:36:07 <vinu143_> H r u
15:37:08 <elliott> Harigo.
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15:40:24 <nooga> mol
15:41:06 <oerjan> ecule
16:11:34 <fizzie> asses.
16:14:46 <elliott> I like big molecule asses and I cannot lie.
16:17:04 <Vorpal> elliott, still missing one door. where did you put it
16:17:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I destroyed exactly one door and put it in the chest.
16:17:27 <Vorpal> elliott, who has the inner door then?
16:17:54 <Vorpal> elliott, PH I guess? And he seem to be acting like a 10 year old, so I doubt I'll get that back
16:17:59 <elliott> Vorpal: What a stupid question. I'll go grab my telepathy device and figure it out.
16:18:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it was a rhetorical question.
16:19:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think you understand what rhetorical questions are.
16:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not have any doors.
16:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, also, I'll have you know that I am 22, not 10.
16:20:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what did you do to the inner door in order to get out?
16:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I was 22 at it.
16:21:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, waiting for an answer
16:21:31 <Phantom_Hoover> IT WAS ALL SUCH A BLUR
16:21:33 <elliott> I like the idea of ageing something.
16:21:42 <elliott> Except just before you're 70.
16:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably PTSD from being kidnapped.
16:21:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right. You still owe me one iron door.
16:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you're in the wrong here!
16:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Kidnapping is WRONG!
16:22:22 <oerjan> How stupid do you have to be not to understand rhetorical questions?
16:22:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, break in is also wrong
16:22:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the word you are looking for is not kidnapping. I acted in self defence
16:23:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, BY KIDNAPPING ME!
16:23:30 <elliott> oerjan: As stupid as Vorpal! (Yes, yes, I got it.)
16:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, that was a meeting to foster corporate coöperation, not a break-in!
16:23:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no. By filling up a room in my house. Why did you not use /spawn
16:23:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no it wasn't
16:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It WAS!
16:25:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so is that why you changed a sign to read "Vorpal sucks"
16:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep!
16:25:09 <Vorpal> remember, that was BEFORE I filled the room
16:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a complement in HHI circles!
16:25:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pull the other one.
16:25:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Hoovers, after all, suck!
16:26:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was the second text now again?
16:26:12 <Vorpal> the second time you change it
16:26:15 <Vorpal> changed*
16:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't get a chance, since you messed it up.
16:27:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you changed it a second time.
16:27:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and no I didn't mess it up. It was you who did in the first place
16:27:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover sucks.
16:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why thank you.
16:28:42 <Vorpal> elliott, so was it you or PH who dug away in the side of a wall of my place? Below boat loop
16:29:17 <elliott> What.
16:29:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well there is a hole in a wall above the sign saying "boatloop ^\n\nfarming v"
16:30:04 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly new as of today
16:30:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I am really uninterested in your insane allegations of things I've done; please stop pinging me.
16:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume it was PH then
16:36:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gee, thanks for stealing metals too.
16:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Zuh?
16:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I gave them back.
16:36:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh where? They are not in the chest where they were taken from
16:37:19 <elliott> Ugh, there is an awful J maze solver on Rosetta Code.
16:37:31 <elliott> The most important part of the code is an imperative loop.
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16:43:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about all those mushrooms?
16:43:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I ate them.
16:43:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wasn't there like 30?
16:43:55 <elliott> hey, they did anagolf at 27C3
16:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, let's learn some maths!
16:44:07 <elliott> approve
16:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> 8 + 8 = 16!
16:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> 16 < 30!
16:44:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so there was 8 in there of each. Right
16:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> 16 - 4 = 12
16:44:42 <Vorpal> I didn't remember how many were in there
16:44:47 <elliott> open F,</v*/*/*/p>;eval<F>
16:44:48 <elliott> What.
16:44:51 <Vorpal> which is quite different from math
16:45:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now, when can I expect those back? Along with the iron door?
16:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, when the cows come home.
16:46:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I see. Well a cow just jumped outside my front door. So I guess now then
16:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that doesn't count
16:46:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh?
16:47:43 <oerjan> cows can't count
16:47:51 <oerjan> scientific fact
16:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, EXACTLY.
16:48:35 <oerjan> also, alligators always alliterate
16:49:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, there?
17:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the HHI PR department is asking questions about the new message at our headquarters.
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17:36:05 <elliott> oerjan: if I name Ponzi Scheme's editor Madoff, will you arrest me for being an unlicensed punster?
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18:15:33 <elliott> I wish the button on this thing was easier to press ... enabled tap to click for now.
18:21:18 <coppro> http://www.theonion.com/articles/internet-explorer-makes-desperate-overture-to-beco,6338/
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18:27:22 <elliott> 2.210 +[19:45:51] < fizzie> personally when I find enough money I don't have any use for I'll buy these. so I consider my usage just some kind of far-fetched "advance-preview" thing.
18:27:29 <elliott> fizzie: So did you ever buy C99 and C++?
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18:31:36 <elliott> 2.310 +[20:32:44] < fizzie> freaky. I've been a slackware-user since when I found linux, but recently I've been thinking about converting to a debianist. installed debian on this ppc-macintosh I have here.
18:31:38 <elliott> LORE AND HISTORY
18:39:07 <Vorpal> elliott, which year is it from?
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19:03:52 <elliott> Bahahahahaha Minecraft.
19:04:01 <coppro> BOXES!
19:04:19 <coppro> (the official working title for what I have been calling netcraft)
19:04:27 <elliott> coppro: That ... worst ... ever ... title
19:04:39 <coppro> it's pretty epic so far; it uses vertex shaders to make the world "round"
19:04:53 <elliott> coppro: Minecraft may spill into Agora for a few message Real Soon Now (or B)
19:05:02 <coppro> elliott: I'm on Holiday
19:05:03 <elliott> I apologise!
19:05:12 <elliott> coppro: Bah, Agora is like a magnet.
19:05:16 <elliott> You can't take a holiday from a magnet.
19:08:01 <oerjan> unless you have a magnetic monopoly
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19:31:55 <elliott> DAMMTI GEOMTRYOMFEOGP
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19:45:28 <coppro> oerjan: I just got the pun
19:45:30 <coppro> you're horrible
19:45:53 <oerjan> you're welcome
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19:48:43 <coppro> magnetic monopoly should be a game
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19:54:56 <oerjan> might raise a bit of a trademark issue
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19:55:44 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
19:55:50 <elliott> :(
19:56:02 <oerjan> IT'S TRADITIONAL
19:56:07 <FireFly> Heh
19:56:07 <elliott> oerjan: cruelty!
19:56:23 <FireFly> Good evening anyway
20:06:03 <elliott> Wow, apparently my anagolf challenge is rather famous ...
20:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Link?
20:07:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just the "minimal Scheme interpreter" one; it's famous for being a complete and utter failure.
20:07:15 <elliott> Not only is one of the example programs invalid (unmatched parens), but the output is incredibly trivial to just embed.
20:07:51 <oerjan> heh
20:08:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In which dirt and gravel also become glass: http://abemiller.imgur.com/778N2
20:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, clearly not gravel.
20:11:20 <elliott> Well, okay.
20:29:48 <oerjan> grievously groveling gravel
20:29:58 <Sgeo> elliott, you promised me Minecraft in Agora
20:30:09 <elliott> Sgeo: What.
20:30:11 <coppro> Sgeo: I object
20:30:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, no, I didn't mean like that.
20:30:25 <elliott> And I promised nothing?
20:30:25 <Sgeo> <elliott> coppro: Minecraft may spill into Agora for a few message Real Soon Now (or B)
20:30:30 <elliott> I pinged coppro once.
20:30:31 <Sgeo> Oh
20:30:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, I mean Minecraft-related matters.
20:30:39 <elliott> It's complicated.
20:31:10 * oerjan recalls Agora had some geography-like game at one time
20:31:21 <oerjan> hm was it an Agora map
20:31:30 <elliott> oerjan: COME BACK AND FIND OUT
20:31:36 <oerjan> eek
20:31:56 <elliott> oerjan: we're fluffy :<
20:33:13 <oerjan> or possibly a more refined sauce
20:33:23 <elliott> oerjan: yes
20:33:32 <oerjan> hm... tempting
20:35:26 <elliott> oerjan: or you could be like michael norrish; just post occasionally and have people gawp :D
20:35:37 <oerjan> hm... even more tempting
20:36:38 <elliott> oerjan: in fact, the rarer it is, the larger a spectacle you get
20:38:17 <oerjan> you realize that logically this implies that i should wait as long as possible
20:38:50 <elliott> oerjan: well, no, it ends after a while
20:38:55 <elliott> oerjan: at least for the first post
20:38:58 <oerjan> ah.
20:38:59 <elliott> nobody knows who the fuck you are :D
20:39:16 <elliott> except us, obviously
20:39:17 <elliott> and probably goethe since he's older than time itself
20:39:17 <elliott> SORRY *G.
20:39:22 <oerjan> well michael norrish would know. maybe i could get a chain effect.
20:39:51 <oerjan> i don't think goethe is on this channel to hear you?
20:39:54 <elliott> oerjan: Michael Norrish is the most prolific of the people who never post :-P
20:40:07 <oerjan> ...how logical.
20:40:26 <elliott> oerjan: IIRC his second-last (memorable, at least) post was dissing Spivak pronouns, and the last was denouncing nomic that's based on scams and rule trickery as boring, vs. one grounded in politics
20:40:34 <elliott> I guess he only posts when he's sick of our shit :)
20:40:51 <oerjan> heh
20:40:52 <oerjan> afk
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20:50:18 <elliott> Realisation: All OS X package managers suck.
20:50:38 <coppro> yes
20:50:39 <coppro> also
20:50:43 <coppro> my bedroom is farting
20:50:54 <elliott> coppro: I thought you were going to say "also, OS X sucks" but ... what.
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20:51:07 <elliott> Maybe I'll start maintaining my own packages with stow.
20:51:13 <elliott> That doesn't sound like a half-bad idea actually.
20:51:13 <coppro> something in my bedroom is making farting noises
20:51:27 <elliott> After all, all the OS X package managers compile anyway ... yes, I think I will do that.
20:51:54 <elliott> I wonder if I can make stow use hardlinks instead of symlinks.
20:53:01 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/software/stow/ TOTALLY EASY TO FIND TARBALLS FROM THIS PAGE
20:53:46 <elliott> hmm, is stow even *maintained*?
20:53:55 <elliott> last release is from 2002
20:55:53 <oerjan> it's been stowed away
21:01:57 <elliott> wish pikhq was here, he knows about stow
21:03:42 <Gregor> "Yes, witnesses to the Jehovahs incident"
21:03:58 <elliott> Gregor: wat
21:04:11 <elliott> Gregor: have you used gnu stow
21:04:17 <Gregor> elliott: No
21:04:23 <elliott> Gregor: use it so i can ask you questions about it
21:04:30 <Gregor> elliott: Nuh-uh
21:04:57 <elliott> Gregor: plz
21:05:54 <Gregor> elliott: Nuh-uh
21:05:59 <elliott> Gregor: :{
21:06:01 <oerjan> the curious incident of the Jehovah in the night-time
21:08:52 <coppro> lol
21:13:04 <elliott> the FHS is so restrictive
21:13:11 <elliott> /usr/local is overloaded :(
21:13:21 <elliott> /usr/local is "shit the sysadmin wrote" but *also* "shit the sysadmin installed"
21:13:26 <elliott> with the latter, something like gnu stow is useful for managing it
21:13:32 <elliott> with the former, obviously you don't want stow trashing your shit
21:13:41 <elliott> which it will if you use the same directory
21:13:43 <elliott> so ...?
21:15:02 <elliott> coppro: you, random person I'm going to annoy. solve my problem
21:15:33 <elliott> 2.970 +[23:18:07] < fizzie> now that was just plain wrong. it's like killing twelve live kittens and stuffing a pentium inside each one.
21:16:24 <elliott> 2.984 +[23:43:14] < fizzie> I went to see the 'spirited away' movie today, and they showed the trailer for a new star trek film, 'nemesis', before it.
21:16:24 <elliott> 2.985 +[23:43:43] < fizzie> looked like lot of explosions and spaceflight, and then few people/things kissing in between.
21:16:28 <elliott> these logs are the best ever
21:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Was this when #esoteric was really #fizzie?
21:21:09 <coppro> elliott: no
21:21:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I'm just only quoting fizzie.
21:21:28 <elliott> everyone else in 2002 is boring.
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21:22:10 <elliott> 2.1339 +[02:50:11] < mooz_> am talkink
21:22:10 <elliott> 2.1340 +[02:51:30] < mooz_> sadly, pitr hasn't had much of a role in UF lately. one could even say the standard of the comic has lowered...
21:22:10 <elliott> 2.1341 +[02:54:25] < navigator> i haven't read it for about a couple of months
21:22:12 <elliott> 2.1342 +[02:54:37] < navigator> it was getting from silly to idiotic
21:22:14 <elliott> 2.1343 +[02:54:46] < mooz_> quite
21:22:16 <elliott> a lesson that Sgeo has still not learned
21:22:55 <elliott> 2.1380 +[03:16:13] < fizzie> colin is my primary computer, it's "about the first genuinely useful" thing here, as ford says about colin in the book.
21:22:55 <elliott> 2.1381 +[03:16:32] < fizzie> random is a girl, and macs are of course girls.
21:23:10 <elliott> 2.1392 +[03:17:46] < fizzie> zem is a laptop, so it somewhat resembles a mattress.
21:23:15 <elliott> (Some lines snipped.)
21:23:19 <elliott> This naming logic is horrific, fizzi.
21:23:21 <elliott> *fizzie.
21:23:38 <elliott> 2.1395 +[03:18:30] < fizzie> and epun is really insignificant, and in reality here epun is a C128. 2.1398 +[03:19:16] < fizzie> yup. I'm trying to write an ipv6 stack for it, therefore it has a name :p
21:26:05 <elliott> so is anyone FHS-savvy :)
21:26:19 <Sgeo> elliott, it's not getting from anything to anything right now.
21:26:27 <elliott> Sgeo: No, it's just bad.
21:26:34 <elliott> And Iliad is dying of cancer or something.
21:26:46 <Sgeo> ..?
21:27:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Or something :P
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21:28:51 <Sgeo> Illiad's a plagiarist? :(
21:30:02 <elliott> Sgeo: What?
21:30:11 <elliott> OK, I think I'll stow in /opt:
21:30:17 <elliott> "The directories /opt/bin, /opt/doc, /opt/include, /opt/info, /opt/lib, and /opt/man are reserved for local system administrator use. Packages may provide "front-end" files intended to be placed in (by linking or copying) these reserved directories by the local system administrator, but must function normally in the absence of these reserved directories."
21:30:20 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Friendly#Plagiarism
21:30:35 <elliott> However, I am not sure what to name the stow directory...
21:30:56 <elliott> /opt/stow isn't strictly correct, especially as ... oh fuck it, I'll go with /opt.
21:31:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Hardly a worthy accusation considering all the punchlines are tired, tired lines heard a billion times before.
21:35:05 <coppro> you know what really has issues?
21:35:08 <coppro> Natioal Geographic
21:35:53 <coppro> *National
21:36:09 <Sgeo> That may have been funnier if it were a bit longer before you said it
21:36:23 <Sgeo> Then again, I should not be giving advice on humor
21:36:24 <coppro> probably
21:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, hm.
21:36:30 <coppro> but it was supposed to be a lame pun
21:36:32 <coppro> so me
21:36:33 <coppro> *meh
21:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god.
21:36:46 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans coppro --==\#/
21:37:30 * elliott goes towards compiling GHC
21:37:32 <oerjan> more like quadriplegic
21:37:39 <elliott> i.e.
21:37:41 <elliott> 1. Download GHC.
21:37:43 <elliott> 2. Download GHC's source.
21:37:47 <elliott> 3. Use (1) to build (2).
21:37:50 <coppro> you know what is a nice sound?
21:37:52 <coppro> an hourglass
21:37:58 <elliott> 4. Call up Douglas Hofstadter -- tell him you just did something that'll BLOW HIS MIND.
21:38:04 <Sgeo> I don't get it
21:38:22 <coppro> I do
21:38:28 <coppro> It's funny
21:38:41 <elliott> I think Sgeo means he doesn't get coppro's joke.
21:38:50 <coppro> Oh, it wasn't a joke
21:38:55 * oerjan doesn't either
21:38:58 <elliott> Presumably coppro was referring to my line, then.
21:39:09 <coppro> I was
21:39:15 <coppro> But the hourglass comment was no joke
21:39:28 <coppro> I like the quiet flowing sound of an hourglass
21:39:31 <Sgeo> I don't quite get elliott's thing either
21:39:38 * coppro was given an hourglass for his birthday
21:39:55 <elliott> Douglas Hofstadter's career is built on making recursion sound like an amazing thing that solves all questions of consciousness.
21:40:13 <coppro> That man is strange
21:40:18 <coppro> (and not just in a looping fashion)
21:40:27 <oerjan> to understand consciousness you must first understand consciousness
21:40:50 <Sgeo> Aren't most compilers compiled by themselves these days?
21:40:50 <elliott> Hofstadter seems like an intelligent guy who should have really been stopped from writing GEB.
21:40:58 <elliott> Sgeo: You have a strange definition of most ...
21:40:59 <coppro> The funny thing about his writing is that he seems to have a reasonable grasp at mathematics, except it just sort of goes out the door and becomes a weird mysticism when he mentions strange loops
21:41:03 <elliott> GCC, GHC.
21:41:05 <elliott> That's about it.
21:41:06 <coppro> clnag
21:41:10 <coppro> *clang
21:41:10 <elliott> Oh, the Lisps too, but they're weird.
21:41:14 <elliott> coppro: no, clang compiles with GCC too.
21:41:18 <elliott> GHC compiles only with GHC.
21:41:20 <elliott> GCC compiles only with GCC.
21:41:35 <elliott> SBCL compiles with CMUCL too, even, so even as a Lisp it doesn't qualify.
21:41:39 <elliott> I suspect SBCL could compile CMUCL, as well.
21:41:41 <coppro> elliott: you could build a working GCC with a few other compilers
21:41:51 <elliott> coppro: Well, it's dark magic.
21:41:56 <elliott> coppro: And nobody actually does afaik.
21:42:01 <coppro> elliott: ./configure -no-bootstrap
21:42:06 <coppro> or something like that
21:42:12 <Sgeo> Anyone done diverse double-compiling on GCC?
21:42:19 <coppro> double-compiling?
21:42:20 <Sgeo> How would you go about doing that?
21:42:21 <elliott> Sgeo: It is one of the examples in the paper.
21:42:23 <coppro> compiling GCC once is bad enough
21:42:23 <elliott> Read it
21:42:27 <Sgeo> Ah
21:42:33 <elliott> coppro: Diverse Double-Compiling is the name for the technique to circumvent Trusting Trust.
21:42:41 <coppro> WAIT WHAT
21:42:43 <elliott> coppro: It lets you figure out if a system has been compromised in that way.
21:42:52 <elliott> coppro: See http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/.
21:45:01 <elliott> checking for path to top of build tree... dyld: Library not loaded: /opt/local/lib/libgmp.10.dylib
21:45:02 <elliott> by depends on xcode
21:45:06 <elliott> they meant depends on xcode and macports
21:45:21 <elliott> Compiling GHC is a bitch :-(
21:46:03 <coppro> the thing about the trusting trust attack is it is so difficult to actually pull
21:46:27 <elliott> coppro: well, if the compiler gets modified too much, then the heuristic might fail
21:46:35 <elliott> coppro: it was more practical with 70s era compilers
21:46:39 <coppro> yeah
21:46:39 <elliott> elliott: coppro: well, if the compiler gets modified too much, then the heuristic might fail
21:46:43 <elliott> but note that if the original guy is still around
21:46:45 <elliott> he can easily fix this
21:46:49 <coppro> but what I mean is
21:47:11 <coppro> if you are trying to backdoor every system as described in the paper
21:47:28 <coppro> the amount of extra stuff you need to backdoor with your compromised compiler is very high
21:47:28 <elliott> coppro: you mean in the diverse doublecompiling paper?
21:47:31 <elliott> i haven't actually read it yet
21:47:48 <coppro> elliott: It's the part describing a trusting trust attack
21:47:48 <elliott> coppro: really, Trusting Trust is more theory than practice -- I don't know of anyone who isn't ken that's done it, and ken is basically a god
21:47:53 <elliott> coppro: right.
21:47:57 <elliott> coppro: well, it's an academic paper.
21:48:00 <coppro> true
21:48:06 <elliott> coppro: the point is to prove "even when all seems hopeless, we can still trust computers" :)
21:48:13 <elliott> well, if you're willing to trust the second compiler.
21:48:16 <elliott> you could always write your own.
21:48:21 <coppro> but the thing is, in practice, you'd need to backdoor the compiler in such a way as to at least backdoor every other compiler
21:48:26 <Sgeo> Who says that I can trust the hardware?
21:48:30 <coppro> this is non-trivial
21:48:34 <elliott> coppro: compile the compiler on another machine, duh
21:48:47 <coppro> elliott: but for instance, let's say you backdoored GCC
21:48:55 <coppro> you would then need to make sure it could backdoor clang when it was compiling clang
21:49:02 <coppro> (as well as, of course, backdooring GCC)
21:49:04 <elliott> coppro: the point is a backdoor on one system
21:49:14 <elliott> coppro: well, at the minimum, you need a binary of a compiler you trust.
21:49:24 <elliott> coppro: You can always write your own compiler, in machine code, from scratch, in theory.
21:49:27 <coppro> elliott: to perform the attack?
21:49:31 <coppro> or to defend?
21:49:34 <elliott> coppro: to defend
21:49:41 <coppro> I'm talking about attacking
21:49:44 <elliott> coppro: oh, were you saying that attacking is impractical?
21:49:46 <coppro> yes
21:49:46 <elliott> right, i totally agree
21:50:12 <coppro> defending, yes, needs to start with something trusted
21:50:13 <elliott> sigh, the other binary depends on the macports lib too
21:50:24 <coppro> and it could well be a machine-code compiler for something simple
21:50:53 <coppro> e.g. a machine code assembler makes an assembly C subset compiler makes a full C compiler makes everything else
21:52:02 <elliott> Hmm, my inst(1) program might actually come in useful.
21:52:14 <elliott> For compiling stuff into /opt/stow/foo.
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22:02:43 <Sgeo> I should probably go eat breakfast
22:02:48 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:03:53 -!- BMG has joined.
22:03:54 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, it's 17:00.
22:04:16 <Sgeo> I haven't left my bed since... maybe 7AM or so?/
22:04:21 <Sgeo> And that wasn't to eat
22:04:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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22:07:35 <hagb4rd> i notified sgeo very often having problems with the very basic sustainment functions :)
22:08:17 <elliott> verily
22:08:19 <Sgeo> My only problems are with sleeping and eating!
22:08:44 <hagb4rd> so breathing works fine..last but not least
22:08:49 <hagb4rd> so far
22:10:54 <Ilari> One of the bad sides in IPv4 depletion is GCN. Forum trolls and wiki vandals are absolutely going to love it...
22:12:49 <elliott> Ilari: gcn?
22:13:01 <Ilari> Oops, CGN
22:13:24 <elliott> coppro: lol you would hate how old this clang is
22:13:32 <elliott> $ clang --version
22:13:32 <elliott> Apple clang version 1.6 (tags/Apple/clang-70)
22:13:42 <elliott> coppro: apple can't even ship the latest version of the products they fund :)
22:14:21 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:16 -!- elliott has joined.
22:17:34 <Sgeo> GCN?
22:17:38 <Sgeo> Oh
22:17:42 <Sgeo> CGN?
22:17:51 <Ilari> Carrier Grade NAT.
22:18:39 <coppro> what's that?
22:18:44 <coppro> remind me
22:19:49 <Ilari> NAT by ISP.
22:20:12 <coppro> nope, rings no bells
22:20:31 <Ilari> You know what NAT is (and why it is bad)?
22:20:36 <Sgeo> 20000users 1 IP
22:20:37 <coppro> nope
22:20:48 <coppro> I'm dumb in IP matters
22:20:49 <Ilari> Pretty much...
22:20:54 <coppro> also hah http://politics.slashdot.org/story/10/12/30/213246/Democrats-Crowdsourcing-To-Vote-Palin-In-Primaries?from=rss
22:20:58 <coppro> oh
22:21:01 <coppro> wait I thought IPv6 got rid of this
22:21:15 <coppro> every machine/location pair will effectively have its own IP
22:21:20 <elliott> coppro: thus "IPv4 depletion"
22:21:20 <Sgeo> coppro, yes. IPv6 hasn't been widely deployed yet
22:21:24 <elliott> also ipv6 has some nat i think
22:21:41 <elliott> coppro: that article is everything wrong with ameirca
22:21:42 <elliott> *america
22:21:45 <elliott> well no not nearly everything
22:21:47 <Sgeo> Wait, every _machine/location pair_? Not just every machine? Hmm
22:21:47 <elliott> but the voting system
22:21:48 <elliott> definitely
22:21:50 <coppro> yes
22:21:52 <Sgeo> Well, that makes sense
22:21:52 <coppro> Sgeo: yes
22:22:10 <coppro> Sgeo: individual organizations will get /64s
22:22:16 <coppro> where organization might mean your house
22:22:28 <coppro> the other half is allocated based on your MAC address
22:22:34 <coppro> (so as to obviate DHCP)
22:22:51 <coppro> (since every computer can theoretically say "give me this IP" and it will be available)
22:23:17 <Sgeo> I'd vote in the Republican primary against Palin (unless the only other serious contender was Huckabee)
22:23:28 <Ilari> Oh, IMS (3G/4G IP Multimedia(?) Service) is IPv6-only and assigns /64 per handset.
22:23:30 <Sgeo> What if a computer lies about its MAC address?
22:24:08 <coppro> Sgeo: then you might get collisions
22:24:30 <Ilari> There's DAD (Duplicate Address Detection).
22:25:02 <Ilari> And also privacy extensions that make the computer hop the host part of the address.
22:25:39 <Sgeo> Who's worse: Palin or Huckabee?
22:25:52 <elliott> Your mother.
22:26:18 <Sgeo> Deceased people really don't make great presidents
22:26:30 <elliott> They make the best presidents!
22:27:08 <Ilari> I think Palin... Huckabee might be crazy, but at least he might be somewhere near competent...
22:27:55 <elliott> I think I need to amend my GHC compilation process.
22:27:58 <elliott> 1. Install GHC.
22:28:09 <elliott> 2. Install tons of Haskell libraries and programs to enable building all the GHC documentation.
22:28:10 <elliott> 3. Download GHC.
22:28:15 <elliott> 4. Compile GHC with GHC.
22:28:16 <elliott> 5. Install GHC.
22:28:19 <elliott> 6. Uninstall the other GHC.
22:28:21 <elliott> 7. Why god why
22:29:25 <elliott> For building library documentation, you'll need Haddock [6]. To build
22:29:25 <elliott> the compiler documentation, you need a good DocBook XML toolchain and
22:29:25 <elliott> dblatex.
22:29:28 <elliott> BUT I DON'T WANNA
22:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you doing it that way for ghc?
22:31:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Because GHC depends on GHC.
22:31:39 <elliott> GHC depends on recent GHC, even.
22:31:41 <Vorpal> elliott, couldn't you just get the haskell platform thingy?
22:31:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt that thinks it's installed in /opt, and GHC is not very relocatable.
22:32:07 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, is this for kitten?
22:32:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Plus the platform is on GHC 6.12; I want the new, shiny, breaks-everything GHC 7.0.1.
22:32:19 <elliott> No, this is for my OS X box.
22:32:23 <Vorpal> ah
22:32:25 <elliott> There is literally no good OS X package manager.
22:32:34 <Sgeo> Homebrew isn't good?
22:32:35 <elliott> I've tried MacPorts, Fink, and Homebrew. They are all terrible.
22:32:53 <elliott> So I'm just compiling stuff myself and using 2002-vintage GNU Stow.
22:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott, so what is are the major news in ghc 7?
22:33:07 <elliott> Vorpal: What.
22:33:11 <Sgeo> is are
22:33:13 <Sgeo> IS ARE
22:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you said it breaks everything
22:33:22 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oops
22:33:28 <elliott> It has more bunnies.
22:33:42 <Vorpal> (that is what you get for changing a sentence midway and then not proof reading)
22:33:51 <Sgeo> All that I was is lost to the waves. I was is lost. was is.
22:33:59 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:34:55 <Sgeo> I think elliott's fleeing me
22:36:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:39:52 -!- elliott has joined.
22:39:58 <elliott> guess my wifi password
22:40:42 <coppro> sgeosucks
22:41:03 <elliott> coppro: nope, although good idea
22:41:12 <elliott> it's actually opticiansareactuallybearsindisguiseokay. based on a true story.
22:41:40 <elliott> Scenes from 2002:
22:41:41 <elliott> 2.1712 +[02:47:45] < navigator> hey have any ascii anime porn links?
22:42:08 <oerjan> so they can barely see?
22:42:48 <elliott> 2.1749 +[17:03:19] < navigator> i need either somebody to help me with dialup ppp from solaris or somebody to give me a lot of drugs
22:42:48 <elliott> 2.1750 +[17:04:32] < fizzie> heh, I was actually thinking of trying solaris/sparc too.
22:42:48 <elliott> 2.1751 +[17:04:51] < fizzie> maybe I should restock my supplies of drugs before I try that, then.
22:43:29 <Sgeo> Yay, I ate!
22:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the major change seems to be haskell2010 support?
22:43:49 <elliott> Sgeo: CONGRATULATIONS
22:43:52 <elliott> Vorpal: probably. who cares. it's shiny & new
22:44:11 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but I was wondering what the shiny and new parts were (found the release notes)
22:44:13 <elliott> I think I'm starting to see the use of a package management system ... tempted to write installation shell scripts now
22:44:31 <elliott> so I can do /usr/local/install/ghc
22:44:38 <elliott> and it'll make /opt/stow/ghc-7.0.1 for me
22:44:46 <elliott> Vorpal: higher version number than previous versions.
22:45:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err, package management system, you mean, like those distros use? If so, how long have you been thinking they were useless? (I completely missed this)
22:45:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i was half-joking
22:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, phew
22:45:46 <elliott> i do believe most of what package managers do is useless though :)
22:46:12 <elliott> if it's not @'s cryptography-based API-based ultra-general system, then it better be Kitten's basically-no-runtime-dependencies minimalist extravaganza
22:46:43 <Vorpal> hah
22:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott, checksumming the API sounds cool.
22:47:23 <elliott> Vorpal: i stole it from tuomov :)
22:48:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but a bit tricky for the general case of a distro. Since you need to handle everything from C API (how do you extract /that/? Checksumming AST of headers or something? Remember macros and so on)
22:48:05 <elliott> ok it'll actually be /usr/local/share/install/ghc-7.0.1... and then I can say "install ghc" and it'll run that in a temporary directory for me
22:48:07 <elliott> with any luck!
22:48:09 <olsner> Vorpal: ghc 7 it has a COMPLETELY NEW type inference engine thingamajig
22:48:20 <Vorpal> olsner, ah cool
22:48:20 <coppro> win 2
22:48:49 <Gregor> Hackiki + Node.js: Best idea ever?
22:49:08 <elliott> Gregor: Oh dear god.
22:49:18 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is just the ABI, not the API
22:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, since the API would include *behaviour* too
22:49:41 <olsner> apparently the new thing supports stuff like interactions between GADT:s and other type-system features much better than before, and adds stuff like flexible kinding
22:49:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is node.js?
22:50:23 <Vorpal> olsner, heh
22:50:24 <Sgeo> Vorpal, server-side Javascript
22:50:48 <Vorpal> hm
22:50:59 <Gregor> "Server-side" is a bad name for it.
22:51:01 <Vorpal> that sounds crazy
22:51:13 <Gregor> Node.js is to JavaScript as CPython is to Python.
22:51:13 <olsner> istr ghc 7 includes the llvm backend too
22:51:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, is the filename node.js (if so, what executes that?)
22:51:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, wow
22:51:44 <Vorpal> for javascript?
22:51:47 <Vorpal> huh
22:51:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: Like all other JavaScript projects, it has the worst name it could possibly have.
22:52:12 <olsner> wikipedia: "Node.js is an evented I/O framework for the V8 JavaScript engine on Unix-like platforms. It is intended for writing scalable network programs ..."
22:52:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, which js environment does it call out to for stuff it can't compile (assuming the analogy of cython works on that level)
22:52:38 <Sgeo> Wait, isn't V8 the Chrome thing?
22:52:58 <Vorpal> olsner, that doesn't sound like cython for js at all
22:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes.
22:53:15 <Sgeo> Vorpal, CPython. Not Cython.
22:53:16 -!- elliott_ has joined.
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22:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Just you wait until I implement @'s Javascript engine, I'll show you all.
22:53:22 <Vorpal> oh misread
22:53:24 <Vorpal> right
22:54:28 <elliott_> does ghc no longer depend on gmp?
22:55:09 <olsner> elliott_: no, I don't think it doesn't
22:55:21 <elliott_> hm.
22:55:24 <elliott_> i guess os x ships with it then
22:55:47 * Sgeo reads DS9's article on M-A
22:55:51 <Vorpal> olsner, was that double negative intended, or was it just an error on your side?
22:55:56 <Sgeo> Changelings aren't the only ones in the Dominion?
22:56:16 <elliott_> Sgeo: facepalm
22:56:18 <olsner> Vorpal: yes :)
22:56:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, well it probably does, since iirc gcc depends on mpfr which depends on gmp.
22:56:36 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah. but this is apple, so who knows.
22:56:49 <Gregor> I just don't like calling it "server-side JavaScript", because that's used to distinguish it from in-browser JavaScript, but there's nothing about Node that necessitates writing server apps.
22:56:56 <Vorpal> olsner, is that "yes" the logical "at least one of the alternatives is true"?
22:56:59 <elliott_> their unix development story is anything but logical
22:57:14 <olsner> Vorpal: i.e. I'm pretty sure gmp is still used by ghc
22:57:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, fair enough
22:57:20 <Vorpal> olsner, ah
22:57:36 <elliott_> hmm, I have a bootstrapping problem with the stow package
22:57:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, GNU stow!?
22:57:47 <elliott_> Vorpal: yes :-)
22:57:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, didn't you say it sucked?
22:58:02 <Sgeo> Vorpal, get with the picture, he's been talking about it nonstop
22:58:03 <elliott_> Vorpal: anything I wrote for the purpose would basically be a reimplementation, so I'll use GNU's finest 500-line Perl script to do the job
22:58:12 <elliott_> yes, it sucks. but I don't want to fuck around with FUSE and Gregor's cunionfs on OS X .
22:58:16 <elliott_> and unionfs is linux-only.
22:58:20 <elliott_> Sgeo: nonstop?
22:58:23 <elliott_> Ive mentioned it like thrice
22:58:24 <elliott_> *I've
22:58:27 <elliott_> keyboard adjustment period ...
22:58:38 <olsner> ooh, only 500 lines? isn't that 10x shorter than gnu's hello world? :)
22:58:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, speaking of keyboards. How is the air keyboard?
22:58:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, and is it full size?
22:59:14 <olsner> that stow sounds like what macports does with installation
22:59:21 <elliott_> Vorpal: It is just as nice as every other Apple keyboard (i.e. perfectly decent if you're okay with a short-key-travel scissor switch; in that area, they are perfectly high quality); and yes, it is completely full size.
22:59:30 <elliott_> well, apart from the arrow keys. but they're not full-sized on other apple laptops, either.
22:59:35 <elliott_> and even i think on the mini apple keyboard
22:59:37 <Vorpal> ah
22:59:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:59:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: one annoyance is that Fn is to the left of Ctrl.
22:59:58 <elliott_> which any god-fearing American can see is an abomination.
22:59:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, full size F<n> keys?
23:00:14 <Vorpal> if so, strange for a laptop
23:00:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: full-width, yes; about half as high, but really, what laptop doesn't have shrinked F keys?
23:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, indeed
23:00:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: they don't do Fn by default, though, they do brighten/dim display, expose, volume, blah blah blah, you have to Fn+ to get F-keys
23:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, also arrow keys are normally shrunk as well. Well not on all, but most
23:00:48 <elliott_> dunno fi that's OS X or the hardware
23:00:48 <elliott_> *if
23:00:53 <elliott_> but F keys rarely do anything on OS X anyway
23:00:56 <Vorpal> hm
23:01:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, might be an issue in minecraft (F5 and so on)
23:01:28 <elliott_> well. you just have to hold fn. and sometimes fn-shift- to bypass the *other* meaning :)
23:01:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, they have menings on fn- too?
23:01:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: well, they do whatever that F key would normally do.
23:02:03 <elliott_> usually nothing, but still
23:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh which of them does something like that?
23:02:36 <Vorpal> or is that application specific?
23:02:38 <elliott_> I think f11
23:02:43 <elliott_> yup
23:02:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, and what it is?
23:02:49 <elliott_> F11 increases volume one notch (har har notch)
23:02:51 <elliott_> as in
23:02:52 <elliott_> not F11
23:02:59 <elliott_> the key labeled F11 in small, with a big audio symbol in main
23:03:04 <elliott_> Fn+F11 hides all windows and shows desktop, like F11 does
23:03:07 <Vorpal> ah
23:03:13 <elliott_> Fn+Shift+F11 just sends F11 to the app, which is what you need for MC!
23:03:28 <elliott_> nobody seems to have figured that out because all os x minecraft screenshots appear to be maximised only
23:03:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wonder what would happen if the app made a difference between shift-f11 and f11
23:04:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: um. it would break and apple wouldn't care, like usual.
23:04:13 <Vorpal> right
23:04:23 <elliott_> but what kind of app would do that anyway :)
23:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, one written for non-apple?
23:05:13 <Gregor> <elliott_> yes, it sucks. but I don't want to fuck around with FUSE and Gregor's cunionfs on OS X .
23:05:20 <Gregor> Last I checked, FUSE on Apple was no problem.
23:05:21 <elliott_> Vorpal: would you use an app that assigns things to both F11 and Shift+F11?
23:05:38 <elliott_> Gregor: it isn't, but it's still a thing you have to download etc
23:05:44 <elliott_> and i don't trust you :-)
23:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wouldn't use that as the main criteria for the program if there didn't exist an in other aspects comparable alternative
23:07:02 <elliott_> #!/bin/sh -e
23:07:02 <elliott_> pkg=$(basename $0)
23:07:02 <elliott_> curl -O http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/stow/$pkg.tar.gz
23:07:04 <elliott_> tar xzf $pkg.tar.gz
23:07:06 <elliott_> cd $pkg
23:07:07 <Vorpal> I would live with it, and if used too often I would complain a bit about it
23:07:08 <elliott_> ./configure --prefix=/opt
23:07:10 <elliott_> make install prefix=/opt/stow/$pkg
23:07:12 <elliott_> /opt/stow/$pkg/bin/stow --dir=/opt/stow --target=/opt -v $pkg
23:07:14 <elliott_> i wonder if i can make this shorter, it's ugly.
23:07:15 <Vorpal> (since it is rather awkward to press)
23:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, have you picked a name for your computer yet?
23:08:04 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Nope. It's still Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air.
23:08:09 <elliott_> (Thanks, Apple.)
23:08:17 * Sgeo misread that as Elliott-Ehirds
23:08:26 <olsner> elliott_: ... you must change its name
23:08:33 <elliott_> olsner: I just can't think to what. :-)
23:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, so what is $pkg typically?
23:08:38 <elliott_> olsner: It's kind of comical how long my shell prompts are.
23:08:42 <elliott_> Vorpal: stow-1.3.3, in this case :P
23:08:56 <elliott_> Vorpal: I just kept typing stow-1.3.3 over and over and I thought god I hope they never release a new stow version.
23:09:04 <elliott_> I still can't get over the fact that this computer refused to let me use it until it took a picture of me.
23:09:13 <Sgeo> o.O
23:09:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, it what?
23:09:20 <elliott_> Vorpal: To set the account picture.
23:09:25 <elliott_> OK, maybe if I selected to choose from the photo gallery I could have picked some stock thing.
23:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, I hope so
23:09:35 <elliott_> But I was too lazy to, and subjected myself to its lens.
23:09:49 <elliott_> I technically cannot prove it did not immediately send it to Apple. :p
23:09:59 <elliott_> (It also wanted to be internet-connected by that point.)
23:10:03 <Vorpal> elliott_, hrrm
23:10:26 <elliott_> (To probe my Apple ID out of me.)
23:10:33 <olsner> this means apple now have your soul
23:10:37 <elliott_> It also asked what I'd be using the computer for, I think.
23:10:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, "apple id"?
23:10:44 <elliott_> olsner: I find that very probable.
23:10:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yes, as in an apple.com account.
23:10:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, do you actually need that?
23:11:08 <elliott_> Vorpal: I think it offered to let you register one if you don't have one. :p
23:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, and was there no "no thanks"?
23:11:18 <elliott_> I think it's possible to skip that first-time application but I don't know how.
23:11:21 <olsner> google actually do much of the same thing when you set up an android phone
23:11:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: I don't know, I didn't try, since I already have one.
23:11:33 <Vorpal> hm
23:11:44 <Vorpal> evil
23:11:48 <Vorpal> all of them
23:11:53 <olsner> "give us all your accounts and passwords, we won't be evil. we promise."
23:12:45 <olsner> only a matter of time until google reveal themselves as a 10-year massive identity theft plot and/or destroy the world
23:12:52 <elliott_> Vorpal: to be fair, the Apple procedure, while annoying, isn't all that intrusive, since they *already* have all my details and the fact that I own an Air by virtue of ... it being bought
23:13:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, you could have bought it over counter, would it have asked the same then?
23:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, and then they wouldn't have the details (at least if you paid with cache)
23:13:39 <Vorpal> (cash*)
23:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Cache as a token of exchange.
23:14:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: Well, perhaps, sure. But who pays ~£1.5k in cash?
23:14:12 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I approve. Please develop.
23:14:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, SRAM is rather expensive
23:14:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm true :P
23:15:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: (Answer: People who voted for Ron Paul.)
23:15:15 <elliott_> (Although they probably try and pay in gold first.)
23:15:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, republicans in other words?
23:16:25 <elliott_> Vorpal: Uh.
23:16:38 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Please try and explain to Vorpal the vast, vast chasm that exists between "Republican" and "voted for Ron Paul".
23:16:50 <elliott_> I don't think Swedish has words to describe such subtleties that far right on the spectrum.
23:16:57 <olsner> what's ron paul and who's republican?
23:17:03 <Vorpal> :D
23:17:12 <elliott_> Their word for "right-wing authoritarian nutcase" is "social democrat".
23:17:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, isn't it that Ron Paul wants rich people to do whatever the hell they like, while Republicans want them to do whatever the hell God likes?
23:19:09 <Vorpal> oh so he is extremely right wing
23:19:18 <elliott_> Vorpal: Ron Paul is a libertarian.
23:19:42 <elliott_> He thinks the gold standard is a stonking good idea, he likes giving the states lots of power and the federal government very little,
23:19:56 <Sgeo> Wait
23:19:58 <elliott_> he's a conservative Christian but doesn't try and legislate this in his policies -- and, despite being a complete and utter right-wing nutjob --
23:20:04 <elliott_> he managed to be saner than all the other Republican candidates.
23:20:04 <Vorpal> elliott_, suuuure
23:20:05 <nooga> 0xFA1L
23:20:10 <elliott_> Vorpal: This is because America is fucked up.
23:20:12 <Sgeo> Isn't BitCoins gold-standard-esque, or am I missing something?
23:20:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, I did not fall for that one
23:20:16 <nooga> is it valid in C?
23:20:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: Fall for what?
23:20:20 <elliott_> Everything I said was factual.
23:20:27 <elliott_> He is, of course, a right-wing nutjob.
23:20:36 <elliott_> But if you really have to vote for a Republican ...
23:21:05 <elliott_> I mean, pretty much the only respectable US politicians are Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul, and the only sane respectable US politician is Dennis Kucinich. But at least he's respectable.
23:21:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, so he is more left that most republicans?
23:21:08 <Vorpal> or more right?
23:21:15 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's not even left vs. right here.
23:21:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: Republicans don't even fit on the spectrum.
23:21:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh, it's the other axis?
23:21:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:21:26 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's neither!
23:21:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, you thoroughly confused me
23:21:42 <zzo38> What do you think is the computational class of [[Memfractal]]?
23:21:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: Ron Paul is very much on the economic deregulation end and the social liberties end, yes. So right-wing. And this would be a terrible thing for America.
23:22:09 <elliott_> Vorpal: Republicans you can't even consistently place, they're just smack bang at the crazy end.
23:22:14 <elliott_> Make it a cube.
23:22:20 <elliott_> When you're at the crazy end, the other positions don't even matter any more.
23:22:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm
23:22:24 <elliott_> You're just crazy.
23:23:40 <elliott_> hmm, what's the return status of "x=$(foo)"
23:23:43 <elliott_> the return status of foo?
23:23:46 <elliott_> or do I have to consult $?
23:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, well, they do have the consistent "death to poor people" of the right.
23:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, that depends
23:24:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: what
23:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, local x=$(foo) will give you return status of local
23:24:31 <Vorpal> I think the same applies for export
23:24:37 <elliott_> Lol, sh.
23:24:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, but on it's own, then yes should be the return status of foo
23:25:02 <zzo38> What do you think is the computational class of [[Memfractal]]?
23:25:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway the same applies for $? when it comes to local/export
23:25:27 <Vorpal> (so at least that is consistent
23:25:27 <olsner> zzo38: What do *you* think is the computational class of [[Memfractal]]? :)
23:28:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm I wonder if you can write any shell script as a single expression? If you could handle that way
23:28:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: ( x )
23:28:20 <Vorpal> loops you could do with recursion
23:28:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, well no I meant as in no ; or newline kind of sense
23:28:44 <elliott_> eval '...' :-P
23:28:48 <nooga> what is Memfractal?
23:28:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:28:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, okay, sure, but that is not the spirit of what I'm wondering about :P
23:29:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, you can do if else by using || and &&
23:29:15 <elliott_> no you can't
23:29:23 <elliott_> (x&&y)||z fails if y fails
23:29:23 <zzo38> olsner: I don't know. You can have infinite memory but only access by fractal and only enter the block in four directions. I don't know how well you can make the program make a decision in any other way.
23:29:29 <zzo38> nooga: See esolang wiki.
23:29:30 <elliott_> fails as in works improperly
23:29:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, depends on order of || and && of course
23:29:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, you need || first
23:29:46 <Vorpal> I think
23:29:50 <Vorpal> (not 100% sure)
23:29:54 <elliott_> Vorpal: (x||y)&&z -- y succeeds, z rus
23:29:55 <elliott_> *runs
23:29:57 <nooga> am i still here?
23:30:00 <elliott_> nooga: no
23:30:19 <elliott_> (x||(y;false))&&z would work, but you lose the error code obviously
23:30:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm. Perhaps it is still enough to express stuff in. And loops are easy: exec $0 other args
23:31:47 <elliott_> grr
23:31:48 <elliott_> ln -s /opt/stow/$pkg/bin/stow /opt/bin
23:31:52 <elliott_> (hack from the end of my stow build script)
23:31:53 <elliott_> doesn't work
23:32:08 <elliott_> it's meant to put a temporary stow, so that build(1) can do
23:32:15 <zzo38> I wrote something about computational class on it.
23:32:19 <elliott_> stow -v $(basename $pkg)
23:32:20 <elliott_> and have it stow stow
23:32:24 <elliott_> but it complains about a conflict
23:32:45 <zzo38> What might be the minimum amount of things to add to make turing-completeness?
23:33:56 <olsner> wiki no worki
23:34:09 <nooga> it does
23:34:17 <elliott_> hey how do you regexp match in bash again
23:34:19 <elliott_> [[ ~= ]] ?
23:34:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes
23:34:22 <nooga> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Memfractal
23:34:39 <elliott_> [ "$pkg" ~= "stow-.*" ] || stow -v $(basename $pkg)
23:34:40 <olsner> ah, I was using the voxelperfect address since that was higher up on google
23:34:41 <elliott_> doin it rite?
23:34:46 <elliott_> olsner: voxelperfect expired
23:35:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, uh. [[ ]] not [ ]
23:35:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, won't work in [ ]
23:35:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: er yes.
23:35:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, also I think you need to drop the quotes in [[ ]]. You used to need to drop quotes at least
23:35:52 <elliott_> /usr/local/bin/build: line 15: conditional binary operator expected
23:35:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: I don't suppose it might require bash 4, mightn't it?
23:36:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, no, bash 3.12 or such iirc
23:36:10 <elliott_> OS X uses, uh, 3.2.48(1).
23:36:13 <Vorpal> err
23:36:13 <elliott_> Vorpal: Well. There's the problem!
23:36:18 <elliott_> Unless you mean 3.1.2.
23:36:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, 3.2.12
23:36:20 <Vorpal> I meant
23:36:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: Ah.
23:36:31 * elliott_ waits for Vorpal to recoil in horror at the ancient bash version.
23:36:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, they are at 48 now, wow
23:36:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: "now" -- this is from 2007!
23:36:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, even more wow
23:36:53 <elliott_> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ bash --version
23:36:53 <elliott_> GNU bash, version 3.2.48(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin10.0)
23:36:53 <elliott_> Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
23:37:17 <Vorpal> elliott_, wait, isn't it =~ ?
23:37:27 <elliott_> Vorpal: um. maybe. is it?
23:37:27 <Vorpal> yes it is
23:37:29 <elliott_> it isn't in perl.
23:37:30 <elliott_> is it?
23:37:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, well it is =~
23:37:48 <elliott_> I thought we all learned to not to do =x after C's =-.
23:38:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, =- hm right that is ambig. Never thought about it
23:38:25 <Vorpal> what /does/ x=-4; do in C
23:38:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: x = -4;
23:38:36 <elliott_> Vorpal: pre-K&R, it was x -= 4;
23:38:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: then they realised oops.
23:38:42 <elliott_> and fixed it.
23:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes quite
23:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway in bash it doesn't matter since you need spaces around it anyway
23:39:53 <elliott_> ok, so, i need dblatex next i think.
23:39:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, idea for confusing language, make >= and <= be some sort of assignment operators
23:40:06 * elliott_ decides to use debian download mirrors rather than sourceforge.
23:40:08 <elliott_> because fuck sourceforge
23:40:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: I've actually occasionally thought an unary != would be nice.
23:40:19 <elliott_> != foo;
23:40:22 <elliott_> same as foo = !foo;
23:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm. looks a bit awkward though
23:40:40 <zzo38> elliott: I have also sometimes thought of that unary !=
23:41:08 <zzo38> But with C if you are using boolean and you know the value 0 and 1 you can type foo^=1;
23:41:16 <Vorpal> XD
23:41:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, you mean _Bool?
23:42:10 <elliott_> _Bool is why the C committee needs to be fired.
23:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, you mean the name of it?
23:42:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: No I just mean if you are having a variable that stores boolean values.
23:42:26 <elliott_> Yes.
23:42:27 <elliott_> I like how they made it _Bool, but then RESERVED "I" IN THE GLOBAL NAMESPACE.
23:42:34 <elliott_> _HOW RETARDED IS THAT?!_
23:42:54 <elliott_> For complex number support that I have not seen *one* use of. Apparently CPLX_I is just too much I guess.
23:42:54 <nooga> -,-
23:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, wait a sec. what is I ?
23:42:59 <elliott_> Vorpal: Complex unit.
23:43:07 <elliott_> Squares to -1, you know the thing.
23:43:09 <elliott_> Reserved.
23:43:10 <elliott_> In C99.
23:43:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh, isn't that in some header?
23:43:12 <elliott_> In the global namespace.
23:43:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yes. But it's reserved anyway and IIRC compiling something that defines I fails with gcc because of it.
23:43:28 <zzo38> Very retarded I think. I think GNU C uses gnu89 by default so it doesn't enable any of the stupid C99 features, only the non-stupid ones are enabled.
23:43:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, ... how retarded
23:43:45 <zzo38> But if you type gnu99 then it will use all GNU features and all C99 featurse.
23:44:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, at least stdbool.h defines bool
23:44:46 <zzo38> So I use gnu89 mode which is the default mode.
23:45:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:45:24 <zzo38> Even if they do reserved "I" is a reserved word maybe you can use the #define (or @d) command?
23:45:28 <elliott_> /usr/local/share/install/dblatex-0.3: line 6: ./configure: No such file or directory
23:45:29 <elliott_> Oh dear.
23:45:36 <elliott_> "setup.py"
23:45:38 <elliott_> Oh. Ohd ear.
23:45:40 <elliott_> *Oh dear.
23:46:03 <elliott_> I. Don't think Python lets you have two separate prefixes.
23:46:06 * Phantom_Hoover listens to "Little Mouse".
23:46:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, PYTHONPATH ?
23:46:12 <elliott_> HEY THERE LITTLE MOUSE
23:46:16 <elliott_> Vorpal: No, no, as in
23:46:19 <elliott_> ./configure --prefix=/opt
23:46:19 <elliott_> make
23:46:23 <elliott_> make install prefix=/opt/stow/foo-3.1
23:46:30 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: HEY NOW LITTLE MOUSE
23:46:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, DESTDIR?
23:46:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, this might work
23:46:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: It's Python. It's too elegant to look at environment variables.
23:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> SHOW ME WHAT TO DO
23:47:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, well surely it supports destdir of some sort. Every distro I know uses staged install
23:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (little mouse!)
23:47:20 <variable> zzo38, I assure you I could hold more than just Boolean values
23:47:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: Every distro I know of uses a chroot.
23:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> variable!
23:47:39 <elliott_> Vorpal: Debian, Fedora. :p
23:47:44 <elliott_> Gentoo too I think.
23:47:52 <elliott_> Vorpal: Anyway destdir won't help.
23:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, gentoo didn't use to use a chroot for it.
23:47:56 <zzo38> What I think maybe C should have though, is some attribute to tell it what value a variable is supposed to have so that the optimizer can use that information, and code analysis can also use that information. Maybe it can be a pragma to do that?
23:47:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh?
23:47:59 <elliott_> It'll put things in /opt/stow/foo/opt/bin
23:48:05 <Vorpal> oh right
23:48:26 <elliott_> Vorpal: Although I could set DESTDIR to build dir plus "root".
23:48:30 <elliott_> And then mv them into the right place.
23:48:35 <Vorpal> might work
23:48:36 <elliott_> Because I'm all for the hacks, ye ken.
23:48:49 <variable> zzo38, I've advocated for this before
23:48:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm going to try just "python setup.py install --prefix=/opt/stow/foo" first and grep to see if it tries and remembers where it was installed :-P
23:48:56 <variable> elliott_, warns me it may come to Coq
23:48:57 <variable> :-}
23:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, well I doubt you have any other option that will give you a successful install
23:49:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: See above.
23:49:37 <elliott_> Error: not found: latex, makeindex, pdflatex, kpsewhich
23:49:38 <Vorpal> mmm
23:49:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, aiee
23:49:43 <elliott_> Oh man, this is great 'cuz I get to install TeX Live!
23:49:47 <elliott_> Which isn't like 70 gigabytes!
23:49:52 <elliott_> And I'm not on WiFi right now!
23:49:53 <elliott_> Nosiree!
23:49:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, 700 MB rather
23:50:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: 70 gigabytes on OS X :P
23:50:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: Or, more like 3 gigs the last I looked.
23:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, dude, you will be limited by your link to your ISP, not by your wifi
23:50:22 <elliott_> It's technically MacTeX, which is made out of TeX Live.
23:50:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: No, I'm not.
23:50:25 <Vorpal> unless you have awesome internet
23:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, what
23:50:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, 100 mbit fibre or what?
23:50:35 <elliott_> Vorpal: You have no idea how much consumer routers suck at WiFi.
23:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh right, true.
23:50:48 <elliott_> Vorpal: I get 200-500 KiB/s generally on WiFi, 700-800 KiB/s generally on Ethernet.
23:50:56 <zzo38> variable: And be specific? Can it be a pragma to do this?
23:51:02 <elliott_> The current distribution is MacTeX-2010.
23:51:02 <elliott_> To obtain the distribution, click the link below.
23:51:02 <elliott_> MacTeX.mpkg.zip
23:51:04 <elliott_> [ approximately 1.6G- 08 September 2010 ]
23:51:06 <elliott_> OH WELL, IT'S SMALLER THAN XCODE
23:51:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, weird, I have a speedtouch, and I get 700-800 on both
23:51:31 <zzo38> Why are all TeX distributions too large?
23:51:35 <elliott_> oh god
23:51:37 <Vorpal> <variable> elliott_, warns me it may come to Coq <-- as in, coq would get it?
23:51:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: As in he'll turn $language into Coq. :p
23:51:49 <Vorpal> ah yes
23:51:59 <elliott_> Computers need to have a "take note of what I just did these past 30 minutes" when getting some software to install is a bitch.
23:52:08 <elliott_> Then you could just edit the actions and remove all the stuff that doesn't work, and it becomes your build script.
23:52:18 <variable> elliott_, script? make -n ?
23:52:22 <variable> they generally have it
23:52:26 <elliott_> variable: What?
23:52:32 <Vorpal> variable, have you seen frama-c. frama-c + why + <various SMT provers> might do what you want (except not for the optimiser)
23:52:33 <elliott_> I mean a script to automate the configuration & compilation of a package.
23:52:40 <variable> Vorpal, no
23:52:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: Sshh, he's learning Haskell.
23:52:45 <elliott_> Don't recommend evil C tools :-)
23:52:59 <Vorpal> variable, iirc why can also export the problem to coq
23:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, not recommending. Just informing
23:53:17 <zzo38> Can they have any TeX distribution that doesn't have LaTeX and PDF and all of that stuff?
23:53:18 <elliott_> Vorpal: 800 KiB/s on WiFi, guess I'll eat my sock.
23:53:25 <elliott_> zzo38: Yes, it's called tex.web.
23:53:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, you have only one sock?
23:53:36 <elliott_> Vorpal: Indeed. I had to sell the rest to buy this computer.
23:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, if not: left or right one
23:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah
23:54:04 <variable> elliott_, why are C tools evil?
23:54:12 <elliott_> variable: BECAUSE C IS OF THE DEVIL
23:54:15 <zzo38> elliott_: I tried compiling tex.web with GNU Pascal and although it compiles with very few changes, it then complains about "his.tex" which does not exist and is not mentioned anywhere.
23:54:31 <elliott_> variable: Or just because I'm trying to ensure your swift indoctrination into the Church of (Alonzo) Church ;-)
23:54:46 <variable> elliott_, I am already a sworn Pastafarian and Googlist
23:55:04 * variable could be cast to a different religion though
23:55:13 <elliott_> variable: Get off my invisible pink unicorned lawn, you FSM poseurs.
23:55:22 <Vorpal> pastafarian?
23:55:25 <Vorpal> what the heck is that
23:55:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
23:55:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh right
23:55:48 <variable> elliott_, don't say his name in vain!
23:55:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:55:53 <Vorpal> <elliott_> variable: Get off my invisible pink unicorned lawn, you FSM poseurs. <-- says the user of gnu stow
23:56:01 <zzo38> Do you think they are going to walk into the unicorn by mistake?
23:56:14 <Vorpal> ....
23:56:16 <elliott_> Worthless imitators of the One True, which worships the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
23:56:16 <variable> zzo38, no, the IPU takes up no space
23:56:28 <Vorpal> variable, international postage union?
23:56:30 <nooga> C
23:56:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: Invisible Pink Unicorn.
23:56:37 <Vorpal> oh duh
23:56:55 <variable> Vorpal, :-}
23:56:56 <elliott_> I say the IPU Prayer every day before I get out of bed:
23:56:58 <elliott_> "Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them."
23:57:00 <zzo38> variable: Then why do you have to get out of the lawn? Probably for a different purpose, like they just don't want other people walking on it.
23:57:27 <elliott_> "This image features a pink unicorn but it has an alpha channel that makes the unicorn transparent, thus approximating the appearance of the Invisible Pink Unicorn." --Wikipedia
23:57:33 <elliott_> BUT ONLY APPROXIMATING
23:57:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, what wikipedia has that?
23:57:52 <elliott_> Vorpal: [[Invisible Pink Unicorn]].
23:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, this sounds like uncyclopedia!!!
23:58:05 <elliott_> *like awesome!!!
23:58:12 <zzo38> Maybe Uncyclopedia has it too, you can check.
23:58:13 <elliott_> If every Wikipedia page was like that I would adore it forever.
23:58:26 <elliott_> Nothing says encyclopedias can't be occasionally humorous.
23:58:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:58:50 <elliott_> I think Wikipedia's editors have forgotten that they're editing what is essentially a gigantic book to be read by humans -- not a practically-mechanical, dry reference work containing tables of pure fact.
23:59:13 <zzo38> Is there any free Pascal compiler that will compile TeX and METAFONT exactly as is (once it is tangled)?
23:59:24 <elliott_> zzo38: Yes, the one Knuth used. :p
23:59:33 <elliott_> Although that probably wasn't Free as in FSF.
23:59:47 <Vorpal> "(once it is tangled)" <-- tangled?
23:59:57 <Vorpal> what does that mean in this context
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