00:03:49 <CakeProphet> elliott_: how does ghci handle the IO monad?
00:06:02 <CakeProphet> does it execute IO actions if they're top level?
00:06:23 <elliott_> Yes, it acts like a "do" block in the IO monad.
00:06:27 <CakeProphet> for instance, will it modify IOrefs if you tell it to.
00:06:35 <elliott_> Except you can also put expressions in.
00:06:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `...'
00:12:02 <CakeProphet> I was thiking one improvement to these demonstrations would be a way to pass around mutable IOref parameters to these sound generators.
00:12:20 <CakeProphet> but I think that would greatly complicate the syntax.
00:13:16 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies (:=) :: a -> b -> Assoc a b
00:15:59 <elliott_> CakeProphet: what are you looking for
00:16:11 <elliott_> and what you demonstrated looked totally pure
00:16:15 <elliott_> why force it into the IO monad?
00:18:49 <Sgeo> I hope what I just posted to the LSL list wasn't downright stupid
00:19:02 <elliott_> Sgeo: the odds are not on your side.
00:19:05 <CakeProphet> elliott_: and I was seeing what other operators looked like that, as I was thinking of my own operators to use.
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00:20:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/60bknz58chvetmttccch0w
00:21:48 <CakeProphet> elliott_: though with his emacs interface he really doesn't need to use IOref. He just changes the parameters by hand and reloads it via some black magic.
00:23:33 <CakeProphet> I wish Google could search for non-alphanumeric characters better.
00:24:27 <elliott_> CakeProphet: it's IORef not IOref btw
00:24:36 <elliott_> <CakeProphet> elliott_: and I was seeing what other operators looked like that, as I was thinking of my own operators to use.
00:24:43 <elliott_> it's reserved for types and type constructors
00:24:57 <elliott_> s/type constructors/constructors/
00:26:29 <CakeProphet> elliott_: Hoogle doesn't show the fixity declaration though, which is what I'm looking for.
00:27:15 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base.$' [infixr 0] of a section
00:27:31 <elliott_> oerjan knows the proper trick for that
00:27:33 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.+' [infixl 6] of a section
00:27:40 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] of a section
00:27:52 <elliott_> ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b -- Defined in GHC.Base
00:28:14 <CakeProphet> I wonder if Haskell will let me define a negative precedence level. :3
00:29:48 <elliott_> actually using 0 is a bad idea...
00:29:53 <elliott_> because it will stop people using $
00:30:33 <CakeProphet> "name" := someUngodlyFunction $ someUngodlyParameters ...
00:31:06 <CakeProphet> ah well I guess I'll just have to settle with parenthesis
00:31:13 <CakeProphet> or, you know, I might not even implement something like that at all.
00:31:33 * Sgeo is impatient for a reply
00:31:44 <elliott_> CakeProphet: enjoy creating the worst haskell library of all time :x
00:32:16 <CakeProphet> don't worry, I haven't created anything yet.
00:32:33 <Sgeo> Is Haskell's printf type-safe? I mean, it type-checks just fine, but
00:33:20 <elliott_> and there's a way to do much the same thing safely
00:33:40 <elliott_> it just looks like: printf ("foo " $$ str $$ " bar") "abc"
00:34:00 <CakeProphet> the thought was that in a live coding environment the less typing you have to do the better. Also, being able to put everything in one line is a place. Anything besides string requires previous setup of some kind. If I can do that and have it not be a pain then I'll use that approach, but otherwise I am using strings and you will hate it. :P
00:34:02 <elliott_> printf ("foo " $$ (int % pad0 9) $$ " bar") "abc"
00:34:06 <elliott_> printf ("foo " $$ (int % pad0 9) $$ " bar") 9
00:34:10 <elliott_> which is easier to read anyway.
00:34:29 <elliott_> CakeProphet: then don't use haskell
00:34:43 <elliott_> CakeProphet: variables need initial values
00:34:57 <elliott_> default all integers to 0 and lists to [] and the like with a typeclass? ahahaha
00:35:17 <CakeProphet> er, no. The idea is that the names refer specifically to one type. a sound generator of some kind.
00:35:51 <elliott_> i thought you didn't want that which was why you were using strings.
00:36:52 <CakeProphet> I just wanted to use strings as names in, perhaps, a mutable map or something, instead of passing around IO refs. It's one option of many.
00:37:12 <elliott_> I'm just saying that strings, apart from being totally type-unsafe and ugly and not even giving you any kind of error for using an undefined variable,
00:37:20 <elliott_> don't absolve you of the need to initialise -- i.e. declare -- variables
00:38:02 <CakeProphet> right, but they save you effort in that they're effectively global throughout IO, without the need to pass around the reference. I'll probably end up using IORef if anything for mutable parameters.
00:38:08 <pikhq_> Man. For coming from the guy who brought us PulseAudio, systemd actually seems like a sane, intelligent design.
00:38:42 <pikhq_> elliott_: Are there any non-aesthetic complaints you have?
00:38:52 <elliott_> those are technical complaints
00:38:58 <elliott_> ini files are terrible, especially the way it uses them
00:39:13 <elliott_> and the only reason it exists is because Poettering hates sh
00:39:32 <elliott_> if Lennart Poettering is behind it, you can basically assume it'll be horrible shit and also, that he'll be a jackass about it
00:39:59 <elliott_> IIRC he responded to a criticism of -- was it systemd? -- at a presentation, by accusing the criticiser of hating disabled people :)
00:40:19 <pikhq_> At least how sh is used *currently* in init, sh seems to suck for the purpose.
00:40:31 <pikhq_> That is a motherfucking *fuckton* of boilerplate.
00:40:39 <elliott_> when did i say that was a good idea
00:40:53 <elliott_> but his whole goal is "omg sh should never be called during boot"
00:41:00 <pikhq_> You seemed to say that "no sh" was a technical complaint against systemd.
00:41:15 <elliott_> yes, because it means you can't do tons of shit easily
00:41:21 <elliott_> "i want sh exactly like it is in current init omg"
00:41:46 <pikhq_> Admittedly, it's probably a good idea to also have a more flexible language in your init system.
00:41:55 <pikhq_> By all means, make it so the common case is easily configurable.
00:42:18 <pikhq_> But you should make the easy bits easy and the hard bits possible.
00:42:18 <elliott_> pikhq_: the people in #musl know more about systemd than me anyway, but i heard enough to make me dislike it
00:42:28 <elliott_> (note: going in to #musl to ask about systemd may not be a good idea :P)
00:42:29 <pikhq_> Rather than the easy bits easy and the hard bits akin to getting raped.
00:42:31 <CakeProphet> pikhq_: so you're saying init should be in Perl?
00:42:45 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: No, no, just in *a* flexible language.
00:42:51 <pikhq_> sh is not terrible for the purpose.
00:43:05 <pikhq_> If you can get rid of the pointless, irritating boilerplate.
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00:43:18 <elliott_> how is there any boilerplate in starting e.g. an httpd with sh
00:43:32 <elliott_> nobody is advocating /etc/init.d here, that is a strawman
00:43:54 <pikhq_> elliott_: Obviously, the means of getting rid of boilerplate is not necessarily getting rid of sh.
00:44:07 <elliott_> there is no boilerplate to get rid of
00:44:17 <elliott_> that's assuming we're all talking from the "systemv init" frame of reference
00:44:36 <pikhq_> Just making it so that you literally don't have to stick the basic, barebones logic of the *entire* init system in the configuration files for it.
00:44:42 <CakeProphet> so, I'm little murky on the differences between sh, bash, and dash. Can someone enlighten me?
00:44:47 <pikhq_> elliott_: I have been talking from a systemv init frame of reference.
00:45:04 <pikhq_> If we talk from other frames of reference, there may well be little to no boilerplate.
00:45:13 <elliott_> CakeProphet: sh is too vague to define, be more specific; bash is GNU's shell
00:45:27 <elliott_> dash is the Debian Almquist shell
00:45:29 <pikhq_> Certainly, there's no boilerplate to: for /etc/services.d/*;do sh $i;done
00:45:39 <CakeProphet> as in, is sh just the name for the system's shell program, whatever it may be?
00:45:39 <elliott_> a descendent of NetBSD's version of the Almquist shell
00:45:55 <elliott_> CakeProphet: yes. POSIX defines what sh has to be, but it's a rather minimal specification.
00:45:55 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: The system's *Bourne-like* shell.
00:46:21 <pikhq_> CakeProphet: There's a few requirements on that beyond "it can spawn processes"... In practice, though, that means "any shell but csh and tcsh".
00:46:26 <CakeProphet> I notice when I "man sh" I get a page for dash, when originally I thought sh was bash on Ubuntu.
00:46:44 <pikhq_> sh is now dash on the Debian family distros.
00:46:54 <CakeProphet> is there like, a huge difference I should note?
00:47:08 <elliott_> Unless you use bash's advanced features.
00:47:14 <elliott_> (Hint: You probably don't. Not in your scripts anyway.)
00:47:26 <CakeProphet> yes I doubt it. I don't even know what those are.
00:47:29 <elliott_> ((I mean really advanced, not "the advanced section of My First Bash Script".)
00:48:00 <pikhq_> Yeah, a barebones Bourne shell offers like 99% of what *anyone* uses in shell scripting.
00:48:10 <CakeProphet> I think the most obscure thing I've used so far is the ${foo%bar} thing
00:48:45 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's Bourne, I'm pretty sure.
00:49:38 <elliott_> dash is quicker and leaner for scripts
00:49:42 <pikhq_> Bash is a superset of the capabilities of the Bourne shell.
00:49:44 <elliott_> and using bash for scripts leads you into the trap of using bash-only features
00:49:47 <elliott_> which makes your scripts non-portable
00:50:07 <pikhq_> elliott_: Oh, is it? Hmm.
00:50:14 <elliott_> CakeProphet: basically: obviously you don't want to use dash for interactive use.
00:50:24 <elliott_> but if you are writing scripts then dash will probably do you fine, and will produce more portable scripts.
00:50:35 <elliott_> you will not notice any difference
00:50:40 <CakeProphet> when I'm using terminal in Ubuntu I'm using dash right?
00:50:55 <pikhq_> Aaah, the language that dash supports is POSIX *and* a few BSD extensions.
00:51:19 <elliott_> GNU bash, version 4.1.5(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
00:51:31 <pikhq_> (which, being extensions that made their way into Korn, are essentially ubiquitous, anyways)
00:52:15 <pikhq_> The Bourne shell itself, BTW, is basically the first UNIX shell that was reasonably useful for programming.
00:52:39 <pikhq_> And replaced the Thompson shell in V7.
00:53:26 <pikhq_> Which itself was the first shell ever, and only really had pipes and file redirection.
00:54:47 <pikhq_> Huh. rc and mk were originally written for UNIX.
00:56:19 <pikhq_> Shame rc's not ubiquitous; it's got such a better language.
01:01:39 <pikhq_> And would you look at that. Sabotage, that distro using musl as its libc, builds with mk.
01:04:34 <elliott_> isn't it a heap of shell scripts mostly :)
01:05:08 <pikhq_> elliott_: Well, yes, probably.
01:05:16 <Lymia> That ' in the middle looks suspicious.
01:05:28 <Lymia> I can't help but laugh when myndzi does that to Perl code.
01:05:38 <Sgeo> elliott_, do you think CoffeeScript is a decent language?
01:10:46 <pikhq_> elliott_: Inquiry: what do you think is an actually decent init system?
01:18:30 <pikhq_> Hey, non-revolting use of sh.
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01:28:29 <jwest> Hi, could anyone give me an idea on how you'd, go backwards in the data list in brainfuck until a counter is 0?
01:28:42 <jwest> not sure where else to ask
01:30:54 <elliott_> i.e. "repeat < the number of times as indicated in the current cell"
01:31:02 <jwest> but n being an input
01:31:33 <elliott_> jwest: you may be interested in an array type solution
01:31:47 <elliott_> 1 | element | 1 | element | 1 | element | 0
01:32:03 <elliott_> making it very convenient to seek around, etc.
01:32:11 <elliott_> and you can use these "indicator" cells to pass around a counter
01:32:16 <elliott_> letting you move N places in the array, etc.
01:33:01 <jwest> yeah i'll look into that
01:33:39 <pikhq> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HU3XrGrDAZ4/TeVGS5sea-I/AAAAAAAAADk/r4hnr1X5YKQ/s1600/Netflix%2BPerformance%2Bon%2BTop%2BISPs%2B-%2BUSA.png This makes me sad.
01:33:45 <pikhq> Note the units on the graph.
01:34:15 <elliott_> jwest: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms is sometimes helpful
01:34:33 <elliott_> oh wow, the netfuck saga continues
01:34:49 <elliott_> he can write interpreters in qbasic and has developed simple chats over nullmodem :o
01:35:08 <pikhq> elliott_: ... Wut?
01:35:08 <jwest> what do the temp1 etc things in the example code mean?
01:35:53 <elliott_> pikhq: "I still don't get your problem. This is so petty and you search every error in my sentense to critisize me... I have already written a full functional interpreter in QBasic and developed simple chats over nullmodem, so I don't really see why NF should be so worse in your opinion. --87.165.166.97 00:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)"
01:36:18 <jwest> thanks for your help
01:37:31 <elliott_> Lymia: talk:netfuck on the wiki
01:38:13 <pikhq> Hmmm. Maybe I should actually upload all my code somewhere again.
01:38:44 <Lymia> I've failed to find it.
01:38:51 <elliott_> see recent changes, i have a headache and closed the tab
01:38:53 <elliott_> pikhq: I have a VPS I'm doing nothing with that runs thttpd :P
01:39:05 <elliott_> (Note: I am an unreliable person.)
01:39:11 <elliott_> pikhq: ooh, do the NetFuck challenge and you'll get
01:39:22 <pikhq> elliott_: I was thinking more like one of those git hosting sites.
01:39:52 <pikhq> Be nice to have dimensifuck up somewhere.
01:39:58 <pikhq> And PEBBLE and PFUCK.
01:40:02 <Lymia> This is Brainfuck... with support for two IO channels?
01:40:03 <elliott_> pikhq: I was going to go "GIT :( USE DARCS" but then I realised that the darcs hosting sites suck.
01:40:07 <pikhq> And other random snippets.
01:40:13 <elliott_> Well, darcsden is alright but it's... barebones.
01:40:28 <elliott_> oh hm, it seems to have been made less barebones as of late, nice
01:42:36 <pikhq> Opinions on git hosters?
01:43:17 <elliott_> pikhq: If you're looking to be ais-style obnoxiously legalistic and principled about things, something that isn't GitHub. Otherwise, seriously, just use GitHub.
01:43:45 <pikhq> elliott_: What negatives exist at all?
01:44:37 <elliott_> pikhq: Uhh... their terms of use once disallowed people to block ads on the site (note that GitHub has never even had ads, and this clause is now long-gone). Also, things like issues, the wiki system, and pull requests are "lock-in" features in that they're not implemented with any standard protocol and don't interoperate with non-GitHub sites.
01:44:48 <elliott_> Oh, and the issue system requires JS.
01:45:02 <elliott_> But it's a well-designed, fast site with lots of good functionality, and it's incredibly popular /shrug
01:45:22 <elliott_> And the inability to use the pull request system directly if the person who made the changes doesn't use GitHub is... not the biggest issue ever.
01:45:38 <pikhq> Mmkay, then I suppose GitHub, then.
01:45:46 <elliott_> GitHub is the only host which offers dynamic tarball downloads of the tip too I think, which is nice because you can link to them.
01:45:47 <pikhq> If I don't like it, well, it's not hard to migrate elsewhere with git.
01:46:28 <elliott_> Honestly, in my mcmap development I look at exactly two things on GitHub:
01:46:36 <elliott_> - The commit list (and the commits themselves)
01:47:14 <elliott_> Developed by fizzie; I wrote some parts.
01:47:31 <pikhq> Un momento; time to use ssh-agent again.
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01:52:49 <jwest> Hey, just one more question, does the fact that brainfuck is turing complete mean that anything written in another turing complete language can be written in brainfuck? I suspect not.
01:53:28 <pikhq> jwest: That is *precisely* what Turing completeness means.
01:53:36 <jwest> it's just hard to believe
01:53:38 <Lymia> Note that Turning Complete only considers computational power.
01:53:48 <Lymia> Things like IO, Networking, etc are not covered.
01:53:52 <jwest> i guess i should look it up and study it a bit
01:54:30 <Lymia> jwest, you could, for example, write an x86 emulator in Brainfuck.
01:54:34 <Lymia> This has obvious implications.
01:56:39 <CakeProphet> finding a well-documented low-level audio playback library in Haskell is proving difficult.
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01:57:17 <jwest> Lymia: does the 30000 byte limit stop this at all?
01:57:26 <jwest> (assuming that is taken as necessary)
01:57:43 <Lymia> Turning Complete, assuming infinite memory.
01:58:14 <Lymia> Does the C spec break down with infinite memory, and infinite word size?
02:00:33 <CakeProphet> I assume the only problem the C spec would have with infinite memory would be addressing it all. With infinite word size, that wouldn't be a problem.
02:01:16 <Patashu> Infinitely long typecasts would be a problem
02:01:36 <Lymia> With infinite word size...
02:01:38 <Lymia> What is sizeof(int)
02:02:29 <Patashu> If everything is infinitely large then sizeof() is useless
02:02:48 <jwest> i gotta go, thanks for the help and interesting info, see ya
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02:03:22 <Lymia> Patashu, but what would sizeof(int) return?
02:03:59 <Patashu> How would you express negative numbers? The most infinite bit is set to 1? But infinity has no last bit
02:04:19 <Lymia> You don't use twos compartment.
02:04:31 <Lymia> You could use sign and magnitude, right?
02:04:42 <CakeProphet> malloc(sizeof(int)) would return the starting address of the infinite memory you just allocated in your infinite memory heap... which I'm pretty sure wouldn't terminate.
02:05:07 <CakeProphet> but then again, I don't really know how malloc works.
02:05:07 <Lymia> Would infinite memory C be a Deathstation 9000?
02:05:43 <CakeProphet> C with infinite memory is possible, provided you address memory with bignums. However, infinite word size makes things difficult, it seems.
02:05:46 <Lymia> What about the various undefined interactions?
02:05:57 <Lymia> undefined behavior, etc.
02:07:54 <Patashu> How are you going to make this work with the guarantee that you are able to touch every bit in memory, e.g. chars are consecutive and leave nothing out
02:08:31 <CakeProphet> I don't really understand what you mean exactly.
02:09:36 <CakeProphet> hmmm, well. you could have a floating point addressing scheme.
02:09:55 <Patashu> Let me see if I can find it
02:11:04 <Patashu> Hmm I don't know where it is, but I know that the C programming language guarantees that chars are consecutive and allow you to touch every bit of memory
02:11:07 <CakeProphet> ptr+1 points to the next char in the string, and all of the bytes of the infinite width char are represented as decimal points (but then they become uncountable, which is another problem I think)
02:11:14 <Patashu> How do you reconcile this with words being infinitely large?
02:11:24 <Patashu> It doesn't make sense to have an infinity after an infinity, I guess
02:12:09 <pikhq> Hmmmm. What else should go up?
02:12:32 <Lymia> Does C break down when you do crap like that?
02:13:49 <Patashu> Can I address memory in smaller than infinitely large chunks, e.g. 8 bit chunks?
02:14:04 <Patashu> If so, what is the address of the 8 bit chunk at the start of the third infinitely large chunk?
02:14:09 <CakeProphet> well, yes. as it currently stands, I think every implementation of C would not be able to handle infinite memory. Especially considering that no physical computer can do that.
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02:15:28 <Lymia> Basic question is, does the C spec hold up under infinity.
02:15:44 <Lymia> The word size is infinitely large, right?
02:17:01 <CakeProphet> to have infinite memory and word size, the cardinality of our set of memory addresses has to equal that of the real numbers. For finite word size and infinite memory, that would be the same cardinality as the natural numbers.
02:18:13 <CakeProphet> so basically, if you ask "what's the second bit in the fourth word of our computer memory", there is no answer...
02:18:29 <CakeProphet> it would be like asking, what's the next real number after 4?
02:19:08 <pikhq> Mmkay, a few bits of code are now up on git. Whooo.
02:20:25 <CakeProphet> Lymia: but, let's assuming you have a arithmetic processing unit that can handle addition of infinite words. Then you don't need to reference those bits individually, you just have your miraculous device perform basic arithmetic for you.
02:20:57 <CakeProphet> and to get the next word in memory, you just say char_ptr+1
02:22:11 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq A handful of things.
02:22:14 <CakeProphet> and because you can refer to consecutive words, you can make assertions such as "an integer is 4 words long"
02:23:40 <CakeProphet> which malloc can happily allocate, most likely.
02:24:10 <CakeProphet> with its magic algorithm, operating on magical infinite-sized words.
02:24:16 <Patashu> But what do I do if I want to reference memory in smaller chunks than a word
02:24:21 <Patashu> I guess I wouldn't really need to
02:24:27 <Patashu> If I needed byte arithmetic I can fake it with modulus
02:24:33 <Patashu> And my copmuter is apparently infinitely fast now
02:24:54 <CakeProphet> I don't see how it would be possible for bitwise operations, including arithmetic, to ever terminate on an infinite word, however.
02:26:41 <CakeProphet> well, to contain infinite memory I think a computer would need to occupy infinite space.
02:27:25 <CakeProphet> so if you have an infinitely large ALU with infinite circuitry to handle infinite bytes, etc...
02:28:02 <CakeProphet> then we don't have to worry about "terminating" in the algorithmic sense because we have an endless supply of physical space to simultaneously move electrons around.
02:30:08 <CakeProphet> ...though I can't imagine what that adder circuit would look like. You'd need a "..." in the schematic.
02:35:05 <CakeProphet> I think that's enough speculation for me tonight...
02:43:43 <pikhq> For the first time in ages, I actually have a place to shove code at.
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02:49:17 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/pebble Anyone give a fuck?
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02:52:47 <pikhq> Something I wrote back in 2006 through 2007, due to boredom with classes in high schoo.
02:52:56 <CakeProphet> pikhq: so it's a high level brainfuck of sorts?
02:53:06 <pikhq> Macro language for Brainfuck, rather.
02:53:24 <pikhq> It directly targets Brainfuck.
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02:55:48 <CakeProphet> so whatever happened to giving brainfuck better IO capabilities?
02:56:28 <CakeProphet> heh, bash is brainfucks advanced IO platform? :D
02:57:25 <CakeProphet> this is cool though. It's like a high-level assembler for BF. :)
02:57:55 <pikhq> Yeah, it was pretty fun to write.
02:58:08 <CakeProphet> can you mix brainfuck code into the language?
02:58:16 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/pfuck You might be interested in this.
02:58:29 <pikhq> You *could*, but it'd break on non-Brainfuck backends.
02:59:37 <pikhq> It also has a C backend, and an interpreter.
03:00:34 <CakeProphet> I like pebble because I could write complex code, compile it, and then claim I wrote it all in brainfuck.
03:01:49 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, does PSOX count for your better IO capabilities purposes?
03:02:51 <CakeProphet> I still never really learned how it worked.
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04:22:03 <elliott_> <Lymia> With infinite word size...
04:22:08 <elliott_> we've been over this a thousand times
04:22:10 <elliott_> <CakeProphet> Lymia: presumably infinity.
04:22:17 <elliott_> infinity is not a valid value for size_t in any C system
04:22:21 <elliott_> and sizeof must return a size_t
04:22:38 <elliott_> Lymia: <Lymia> Patashu, but what would sizeof(int) return?
04:22:55 <elliott_> Lymia: but you can have char be a bignum
04:23:25 <Patashu> Yeah, that's what we ended up deciding on
04:23:27 <elliott_> <Lymia> Basic question is, does the C spec hold up under infinity.
04:23:30 <Patashu> The minimum word size is (infinity)
04:23:42 <elliott_> im mostly skipping all of this since its a rehash of a discussion we've had about a hundredtimes
04:24:09 <elliott_> oh, and note that you can't have a hosted (= with stdlib) C with bignum char
04:25:04 <elliott_> because ftell and the like are explicitly allowed to just fail if you're too far in to the file to represent in an int
04:25:17 <elliott_> so you can just have an infinite disk
04:25:34 <Patashu> Wait, so what do you do in C for managing files over 4GB
04:25:51 <elliott_> For a start, you still use a thirty-two bit computer?
04:26:04 <elliott_> For a second, it's actually two gigs (int is signed)
04:26:10 <elliott_> For a third, you keep track of your own file position :P
04:28:25 <CakeProphet> aren't things like int defined by word size though? So sizeof(int) would be the same number of words as before.
04:29:00 <pikhq> CakeProphet: No, things like int simply must be a multiple of char sized.
04:29:07 <elliott_> sizeof(t) is equal to the number of chars you need to store a t, basically
04:29:26 <pikhq> There is absolutely, positively no guarantee that an int is a system word.
04:29:56 <pikhq> In fact, there is at least one system in common use where int isn't a system word.
04:30:12 <pikhq> On most x86_64 system, sizeof(int) is 4.
04:30:23 <pikhq> sizeof(void*), however, is 8.
04:30:37 <Gregor> On most 64-bit systems, sizeof(int) is 4, as otherwise there aren't enough type names to cover 1, 2 and 4 :P
04:35:04 <pikhq> Actually, I should specify. On most x86_64 systems, sizeof(void*) is 4.
04:35:48 <pikhq> There's a set of toolchain patches floating around to give you x86_64 with 32-bit pointers as an ABI on a Linux system.
04:36:23 <pikhq> Lemme see if I can find it again...
04:37:42 <pikhq> https://sites.google.com/site/x32abi/ Thar we go.
04:39:07 <copumpkin> you get the extra registers without the extra pointer overhead
04:39:16 <copumpkin> if you're short on memory, it's not bad
04:39:26 <elliott_> you also don't have to deal with the pesky additional address space <:)
04:39:27 <copumpkin> it's very noticeable in certain haskell code I run often
04:39:39 <copumpkin> elliott_: in my case, I have 4G of RAM
04:39:39 <elliott_> well yeah but haskell is really pointer-heavy
04:39:46 <elliott_> probably because of []'s unfortunate ubiquity
04:39:46 <copumpkin> and my program was getting killed at 3G for allocating more than that
04:39:51 <copumpkin> so I recompiled it with the 64-bit GHC
04:40:02 <pikhq> Saving space on pointers can really help with cache.
04:40:07 <copumpkin> and now it swaps and exceeds 4 and doesn't terminate in any reasonable amount of time
04:40:30 <copumpkin> just cause of enormous terms in memory
04:40:33 <elliott_> copumpkin: to be fair, in that case your only recourse without changing the program is to buy more ram :P
04:40:50 <elliott_> coppro: macbook air sbuddies /hifive
04:41:16 <elliott_> well it's nice... apart from the fact that the fan is ridiculously noisy and goes on whenever you do anything
04:41:25 <elliott_> and also the terrible linux support although that isn't really apple's fault :)
04:41:34 <elliott_> also the BREAKING NUMBER KEYS, that's the worst feature imo
04:41:42 <elliott_> copumpkin: it's the newest of the new.
04:41:56 <elliott_> copumpkin: I have really obnoxious standards for fan noise.
04:42:20 <elliott_> It doesn't sound "broken" or anything, but it's a lot louder than the fan on my previous laptop
04:42:27 <elliott_> Which was, admittedly, an ULV processor
04:42:42 <elliott_> It probably is great if you use OS X :)
04:42:46 <pikhq> elliott_: There should be at least *some* better support in Linux 3.0.
04:42:54 <elliott_> pikhq: I thought it had no new features :)
04:43:26 <pikhq> elliott_: Bug workarounds are not new features. :P
04:44:25 <elliott_> copumpkin: Really, I got it because (a) the specifications are quite decently above what I had before and (b) it's not a fragile plastic piece of crap like [insert large PC manufacturer here]
04:44:37 <elliott_> If they still made ThinkPads like they used to, the choice would have been obvious :)
04:45:14 <pikhq> There wouldn't have been a choice, really.
04:47:29 <elliott_> I tried to be an Apple fanboy but they were too crap, whoops
04:48:00 <copumpkin> I just mean to say that thinkpad-of-olde worshippers aren't much better :P
04:48:38 <elliott_> copumpkin: At least with ThinkPads the reputation is well-deserved >:)
04:48:46 <elliott_> OHHHH SNAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP ok that wasn't actually much of a snap
04:49:05 <copumpkin> I don't really care that much, just commenting :)
04:49:09 <elliott_> impossible ive caught you in my snap now
04:49:23 <elliott_> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110 best thinkpad
05:05:37 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:13:07 -!- Zwaarddijk has joined.
05:20:33 <elliott_> "In true academic style they define the problem and exhaustively test its parameters. Let's just build something quick and hacky that usually works :)"
05:20:54 <elliott_> are advice dog derivatives dead yet? can we make Terrible Programmer?
05:21:02 <elliott_> FIND DETAILED PAPER ON THING YOU'RE TRYING TO IMPLEMENT
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05:28:39 <CakeProphet> I mean, I don't see why they need to be dead in order for you to do that.
05:29:41 <elliott_> CakeProphet: no i'd just like them to be dead because they are terrible
05:29:45 <oerjan> 17:10:17 <elliott_> hm maybe this is the trick
05:29:56 <CakeProphet> I don't know some of Courage Wolf is good.
05:30:52 <oerjan> er wait that was right, or...
05:31:51 <oerjan> 17:12:28 <elliott_> actually using 0 is a bad idea...
05:31:51 <oerjan> 17:12:33 <elliott_> because it will stop people using $
05:32:05 <oerjan> indeed that annoyed me about parsec's <?>
05:32:31 <elliott_> admittedly, in this case (a := b) would never be a function, so $ would not be so useful :)
05:32:39 <oerjan> (even that _could_ have worked well if they had switched the arguments of <?>)
05:33:24 <oerjan> > (0$0 <?>) -- is it in lambdabot?
05:33:56 <oerjan> :t (0$0 Text.Parsec.<?>) -- is it in lambdabot?
05:34:09 <oerjan> :t (0$0 Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.<?>) -- is it in lambdabot?
05:34:09 <lambdabot> The operator `Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim.<?>' [infix 0] of a section
05:34:10 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
05:34:11 <elliott_> :t (0$0 Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.<?>)
05:34:11 <lambdabot> The operator `Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim.<?>' [infix 0] of a section
05:34:11 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
05:34:58 <oerjan> infixr 0 and switched arguments, and it would have mixed well with $
05:36:12 <coppro> elliott_: I chose the thinkpad
05:36:38 <elliott_> coppro: there's no way i'm buying a thinkpad since about the time they went widescreen
05:36:56 <oerjan> 17:13:13 <CakeProphet> "name" := someUngodlyFunction $ someUngodlyParameters ...
05:36:59 <oerjan> 17:13:28 <CakeProphet> replace the := with something else
05:37:07 <elliott_> coppro: well, I am not the biggest fan of widescreen formats, but no, that isn't the /reason/
05:37:16 <elliott_> coppro: that was about the time when Lenovo started making new models of their own, though
05:37:25 <oerjan> that too would also have worked with infixr 0, although := is a constructor not a function
05:37:32 <elliott_> this isn't like "zomg chinese maek bad computar" or anything, they're just not as well-designed or constructed IMO
05:38:21 <coppro> they're still, in my opinion, some of the better constructed ones out there
05:38:24 <coppro> and they have mouse nibs
05:38:39 <elliott_> oh, they're one of the better-constructed ones, yeah, I just have a pretty low tolerance for this stuff
05:38:49 -!- lambdabot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:39:11 <oerjan> WHAT DID YOU DO TO HER
05:40:13 <elliott_> its hould be illegal to type wrods
05:40:16 <oerjan> 17:15:13 <Sgeo> Is Haskell's printf type-safe? I mean, it type-checks just fine, but
05:40:20 <oerjan> 17:15:53 <elliott_> Sgeo: no
05:40:33 <elliott_> was that an answer via quote :D
05:41:01 <oerjan> unless you have a strange definition of type-safe
05:41:25 <elliott_> Prelude Text.Printf> :t printf "%d" "abc"
05:41:25 <elliott_> printf "%d" "abc" :: PrintfType t => t
05:41:25 <elliott_> Prelude Text.Printf> printf "%d" "abc"
05:41:25 <elliott_> *** Exception: Printf.printf: bad argument
05:41:31 <elliott_> it's not type-safe in the way sgeo means
05:41:36 <elliott_> as he says, "it type-checks just fine"
05:41:40 <elliott_> but it does not ensure type-/safety/
05:41:49 <oerjan> oh right the type-checking is dynamic
05:41:51 <elliott_> it is easy to commit a type error that is only caught at runtime
05:41:58 <elliott_> which means it's not a type-safe method of doing formatted printing
05:42:47 <elliott_> I should write an ``industrial-strength'' library for the kind I described later, I think Oleg's even done it :P
05:42:57 <elliott_> it would be easy and distract me from the horrors I've been coding lately
05:46:36 <oerjan> elliott_: which reminds me, programming in haskell's type system is essentially dynamic typed >:)
05:46:50 <elliott_> oerjan: indeed, although if you do
05:46:58 <elliott_> class (Result r) => Blah a b r | ...
05:47:05 <elliott_> then it does some "compile-time" checking
05:47:09 <elliott_> and I think you can apply it to the arguments too
05:47:19 <elliott_> class (Foo r) => Blah a r | a -> r
05:47:27 <elliott_> instance Blah (SpecialThing r) r
05:47:31 <elliott_> instance (Foo r) => Blah (SpecialThing r) r
05:47:39 <elliott_> but if you recurse it's all ok and works out
05:47:52 <elliott_> but yeah, it is essentially dynamically typed
05:49:48 <elliott_> ducks are telling me to go to sleep, they are standing here and saying it
05:50:06 <CakeProphet> I'm just glad I'm not a 3 oz. bag anymore.
05:51:02 <elliott_> your all doing really badly at telling me to go to bed
05:58:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
05:58:43 * oerjan has a cold but is out of iced coffee :(
05:58:58 -!- copumpkin has joined.
05:59:26 * pikhq has a glass of wine, and it is pleasant.
05:59:33 <elliott_> i kind of want a http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110 now as shitty as it is :D
06:02:21 <elliott_> just tried to ?tell someone something
06:03:36 <elliott_> oerjan doesn't appreciate my pain
06:05:29 <elliott_> http://www.writemypapers.org/examples-and-samples/essay-about-friendship.html oh googling keyboard bashes is productive... this really amuses me
06:05:44 <elliott_> "I got used to believe that friendship is an everlasting phenomenon and it is truly forever. I stick to the opinion, that true friendship is never-ending. Life is unpredictable and we never know what may happen tomorrow. I’ve a lot of friends but only few of them are real. We’ve gone through many difficulties together and now my heart is aching at the thought that we are living in different countr
06:05:45 <elliott_> ies because of life circumstances."
06:06:14 <elliott_> oerjan non-human did you write this . . .
06:06:29 <oerjan> elliott_: why the heck don't you register elliott_. or change nick.
06:06:41 <elliott_> id have to type the password for elliott
06:06:52 <elliott_> which involves googling that number to copy it........
06:07:25 <oerjan> when i log in, freenode remembers i logged in even if i change my nick
06:07:57 <monqy> change your password or fix your keyboard
06:08:15 <oerjan> i guess the initial automated login won't work if i'm not on one my nicks
06:09:02 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to Kallisti.
06:09:08 -!- Kallisti has changed nick to CakeProphet.
06:09:08 <monqy> my automated login works even when I'm not on one of my nicks. I'm too lazy to do it properly, though; maybe it wouldn't work, then
06:09:32 <elliott_> -MemoServ- You are not logged in.
06:09:46 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
06:09:47 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
06:09:49 <elliott_> Requested Range Not Satisfiable
06:10:04 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
06:10:23 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Ian/LARSA_Interpreter
06:10:30 <elliott_> quality wiki comments from Maharba
06:13:37 <CakeProphet> your moms vast range is also not satisfiable.
06:14:08 <elliott_> dfgjofhoifgivnigfjioinogvj fpoohignkjbcfiovncixodnvbjidb fnjhfb nvjhbnjhb uiob uib huib hu
06:14:16 <elliott_> im badass cuz i type without words
06:14:50 <elliott_> no please everybody, please, back off, i cannot serve you all at once
06:14:50 <CakeProphet> is a sane base structure that can represent any kind of time varying signal.
06:14:55 <elliott_> my awesomeness is rate-limited
06:15:00 <elliott_> CakeProphet: flavours of frp...
06:15:07 <elliott_> CakeProphet: but um, (Time -> Value) IS A PRETTY GOOD STRUCTURE
06:15:14 <elliott_> time can be a double or just any member of fractional or whatever
06:15:36 <elliott_> i mean come on, a sine wave... what's sin... oh yeah a function over the reals :)
06:15:37 <CakeProphet> and then have derived structures for things like repeating patterns by specifying some kind of period or something.
06:16:47 <CakeProphet> also should probably carry around some information about samplerate.
06:17:27 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:NetFuck oh god this is great
06:17:36 <elliott_> monqy: hes so upset with our insults
06:17:47 <elliott_> monqy: HE HAS A DEGREE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE
06:17:51 <elliott_> monqy: HE HAS WRITTEN A QBASIC CHAT CLIENT
06:17:53 <CakeProphet> oh but wait, if I just specify time -> value then I don't really need to worry about sample rate because all sample rate will do is vary the input numbers...
06:18:29 <elliott_> CakeProphet: It would be nice if you could use rationals as time for that extra imaginary "precision" and slowness, but
06:18:46 <elliott_> CakeProphet: So I'd pretty much just fix it to Double
06:18:59 <elliott_> CakeProphet: hmm, samples are actually fractional too, aren't they?
06:19:09 <elliott_> You just map a certain range to N bits to actually quantise it
06:19:14 <elliott_> So you just have (Double -> Double)
06:19:34 <CakeProphet> right, but not everything is a double necessarily.
06:19:52 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Well, you want to be able to use sin, right?
06:20:01 <CakeProphet> right, Double -> Double is the usual case.
06:20:02 <elliott_> Rationals aren't an instance of Floating
06:20:06 <elliott_> So I dunno what else you would use
06:20:24 <CakeProphet> but, for example, if you just have an on/off signal controlling some sample, then that would be Double -> Bool
06:20:34 <elliott_> CakeProphet: ah, but that wouldn't be a signal itself
06:20:46 -!- Vorpal has joined.
06:20:48 <CakeProphet> (or Double -> Double if you just have the result wave as the amplitude, 0 for off, 1 for full)
06:21:24 <elliott_> well, the Double result would be [0,one] right?
06:21:37 <elliott_> so Bool is just it restricted to 0 and 1 :P
06:21:50 <CakeProphet> in the case of a volume on/off signal, yes.
06:22:08 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Erm, in the case of a sample result too, no?
06:22:32 <elliott_> Sixteen-bit or whatever is just a way of mapping a reduced range of [0,1] to some bits
06:22:34 <CakeProphet> well, yes. You could have a [0,1] trigger a sample when it's non-zero, or one, or however you want to do it.
06:23:14 <elliott_> you can just make Signal an instance of Num
06:23:17 <CakeProphet> if you normalize it, then yes it would be [0,1]
06:23:32 <elliott_> CakeProphet: wouldn't you want to do that, so that programs would be sample size independent? :)
06:24:58 <oerjan> what worries me conceptually about Double -> Double without a sample rating is that it cannot be serialized in a reasonable time...
06:25:06 <CakeProphet> for a sampler trigger though multiplying by an on-off signal isn't enough. You would want a True event to trigger the sample to play at that point in time.
06:25:13 <elliott_> CakeProphet: http://sprunge.us/jNQZ
06:25:26 <elliott_> but that's not really related to signals
06:25:52 <elliott_> oerjan: for N khz, just call with sequential values at appropriate precision
06:25:57 <elliott_> scale the resulting doubles to your sample size
06:26:13 <oerjan> elliott_: um that's setting a sample rate in order to serialize, surely?
06:26:31 <elliott_> I'm not sure what you would prefer, nothing else would be this flexible
06:26:47 <elliott_> oerjan: it is kind of like saying the Fran (Coords -> Colour) images are not serialisable in that sense
06:26:53 <elliott_> they're not, but that's where their power comes from
06:27:01 <elliott_> and if you want the "serialisation"... it's the program's source
06:27:27 <CakeProphet> yeah.. I don't really see why it would be a problem to ignore sample rate until you actually want digital audio.
06:28:49 <CakeProphet> but... -ahem- I might end up mucking all of this purity up in IO.
06:29:00 <elliott_> what? there is no reason for a signal to have an IO result type
06:29:10 <elliott_> that is terrible, ruins the entire thing, and is completely pointless :)
06:29:55 <CakeProphet> well, not entirely. Let's say I'm modulating a sound generator with parameters that I want to be able to mutate later on, anywhere else.
06:30:09 <elliott_> yes but that is an _environment_ thing
06:30:21 <elliott_> you really want the "performance" file format to be something else entirely
06:31:16 <CakeProphet> I'll have to wait until I get there I guess. I agree it's best to keep a least the basic processing units pure.
06:31:33 <CakeProphet> and then a more complex "synthesizer" could mess around with IORefs and IO in general.
06:32:30 <elliott_> i'm tempted to mess around with this now
06:32:59 <CakeProphet> well, I'll be starting sometime tomorrow maybe.
06:33:09 <elliott_> bah, who cares about _your_ code
06:33:16 <CakeProphet> I took like 8 mg of melatonin so I should be passing out soon. It's only 2:33 AM here though..
06:33:28 <CakeProphet> elliott_: my code will be awesome you don't even KNOW.
06:33:47 <pikhq> CakeProphet: If you're using IO and not interacting with the outside world, you're doing it wrong.
06:33:57 <elliott_> that's a rather insanely excessive dose, dude
06:34:04 <elliott_> also pikhq is right, if you just want references you want ST
06:34:16 <elliott_> but the topic is now you taking way too much melatonin
06:34:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Argh).
06:34:38 <CakeProphet> elliott_: well, in the future having both mutable references and interaction with the outside world would be a benefit, so, IO I'd say.
06:34:46 <pikhq> CakeProphet: BEAT BEAT BEAT
06:34:50 <pikhq> CakeProphet: DON'T BE STUPID
06:34:55 <elliott_> CakeProphet: my professional opinion is that you don't know what the hell you're talking about :)
06:35:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, I finished the last exam before the summer holidays. Now it is time to turn my focus towards 1) driving exam 2) ordering that computer
06:35:17 <pikhq> In Haskell, good style involves IO being minimal.
06:35:21 <elliott_> MY CODE WILL THEREFORE BE BETTER NIH TIME
06:35:23 <pikhq> Ideally, 1 line of code.
06:35:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: try driving a lot, driving is great
06:35:38 <CakeProphet> yes I know all about that. You seem to think I'm just going to fill my code with IO now.
06:35:42 <elliott_> computers are terrible they crash and break a lot
06:35:48 <elliott_> CakeProphet: you're proposing putting every signal into io :)
06:35:57 <elliott_> Vorpal: when do cars break? nevre.
06:36:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: To a Haskellian, you are.
06:36:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm I should invite you to planet Earth sometime
06:36:32 <Vorpal> might be fun to see your reaction
06:36:42 <pikhq> Perhaps I should sleep.
06:37:06 <elliott_> thanks for clarifying with that t
06:37:12 <CakeProphet> elliott_: no, I propose putting IO around the code that operates on signals. I think that's a bit more reasonable, since, you know, they have to play audio and stuff. And maybe pull data from websites or files, etc.
06:37:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, wait what, you are still awake?
06:37:18 <elliott_> id assume you meant the zeroth day of the thirty-seventh month otherwise
06:37:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: no this is just an illusion
06:37:36 <pikhq> CakeProphet: NO, NO, NO THEY DO NOT.
06:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott_, carry on then.
06:37:59 <CakeProphet> pikhq: hey you don't know what I plan to do.
06:38:09 <pikhq> CakeProphet: To play audio, you take the output from them and then interact with it in IO.
06:38:25 <pikhq> You don't need your signals to be IN IO for that.
06:38:27 <CakeProphet> I fail to see how we're talking about different things.
06:38:32 <pikhq> You just need your signals to be pure functions.
06:38:43 <pikhq> If it's not what you mean, say what you mean, please.
06:38:45 <elliott_> IF YOU TALK ANGRILY IN CAPS THAT FUCKWIT WILL LISTEN TO YOU.
06:39:04 <pikhq> So, then you claim what you said isn't what you said.
06:39:08 <pikhq> Please, elucidate.
06:39:18 <CakeProphet> as in, the very most recent lines of text. my attention span is somewhat short since I'm drugged and all. :P
06:39:20 <elliott_> im declaring a ten minute silence
06:39:26 <elliott_> no more talking starting from now
06:40:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, you broke it yourself :P
06:40:05 <pikhq> I have infinite health.
06:40:31 <pikhq> You cannot defeat me, I have Single Player Commands!
06:40:43 <elliott_> are you fucking suicidal you idiot youre going to die
06:41:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, this should give you plenty of time to research computer components!
06:41:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: why would i make a computer for a dead man
06:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, well, since when did that stop anyone? Just look at discworld
06:41:55 <elliott_> I AM GOING TO FUCKING RIP OUT YOUR SKULLS
06:42:07 <elliott_> YOU WILL HAVE TO FUCKING CODE IN NETFUCK
06:42:30 <elliott_> I AM TAKING CONTROL OF THIS CHANNEL
06:42:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, you yourself spoke during this period of silence.
06:42:38 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'M ABOVE THE FUCKING LAW.
06:42:38 <Vorpal> so you have to kill yourself.
06:42:47 -!- elliott_ has set topic: TRANSITIONARY MILITARY GOVERNMENT | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:42:49 <CakeProphet> I'm not entirely sure why elliott is screaming at me right now.
06:42:57 <elliott_> CakeProphet: TALKING IS DISALLOWED
06:43:10 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, I think it is because he is sleep deprived.
06:43:13 <elliott_> THE LOUDEST TEN MINUTE SILENCE EVER THANKS TO ME
06:43:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, you're all just being really stupid right now.
06:43:28 <elliott_> i'm still awake for various complicated reasons
06:43:33 <elliott_> that mostly involve time management
06:43:59 <Vorpal> we will fill the log for you to read when you wake up
06:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, the supreme court find that this period of silence is unconstitutional!
06:44:53 <CakeProphet> pikhq: so anyways, perhaps I explained poorly, but I wasn't suggesting that the signal generators themselves have anything to do with IO, just the code that uses it for whatever nefarious purpose.
06:45:34 <CakeProphet> elliott_: you're making lambdabot cry in heaven.
06:46:26 <pikhq> CakeProphet: If they do IO, they should be in IO.
06:46:33 <pikhq> If they do not do IO, they should not be.
06:47:03 <elliott_> can you feel it about to happen
06:47:06 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: now).
06:48:37 <fizzie> Let's not count our chickens before they hatch; if you say something sufficiently outrageous, it's possible he'll be log-snooping and rejoining just to reply.
06:49:22 <Vorpal> what about this one: <elliott> Haskell would be better with side-effects.
06:49:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't seem to have worked. Oh well.
06:50:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: In other news, http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/prague-congress-hall.jpg
06:51:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm needs some vertical control lines
06:51:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, otherwise: nice
06:51:29 <fizzie> There's a bit of parallax problems in the chairs nearby, but that's just to be expected.
06:51:31 <Vorpal> err... s/otherwise/other than that/
06:51:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, adding some vertical lines on wall features would help a lot
06:52:30 <fizzie> Yes; I'll try that when at home some point.
06:52:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh where are you now?
06:52:59 <fizzie> At work; it's almost 10am already here.
06:53:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, weird they added an extra chair there, there isn't any lack of free seats
06:53:58 <fizzie> The guy in the chair has a video camera on a tripod in front of him; not very clear from the picture.
06:53:58 <Vorpal> or wait, is he recording the thing?
06:54:20 <fizzie> They showed the speaker video on that smaller (rightmost) screen.
06:54:27 <fizzie> And probably archived it somewhere too.
06:54:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what is the thin vertical screen for?
06:55:09 <fizzie> I think that's just a lit-up painted piece of cloth/paper with the conference logo fixed on it.
06:55:18 <fizzie> So that we wouldn't forget where we were.
06:56:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, ever played ultima 7?
06:56:44 <Vorpal> I tried it out a few days ago... Interesting. Though the interface is annoying to say the least.
06:56:47 <fizzie> Very little; some moments with exult, that's all.
06:56:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I used exult too
07:02:17 <Vorpal> whoa, lyx has an option "--without-included-boost"
07:02:41 <Vorpal> that anyone would embed a copy of boost that is.
07:03:08 <fizzie> There's that one site about craziness in Ultima 7; e.g. http://www.it-he.org/ultima7.htm#gambling
07:03:25 <fizzie> (It's an unfortunately messy page.)
07:03:59 <pikhq> ... *Embed a copy of Boost*?
07:04:02 <pikhq> Jesus that's scary.
07:04:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, in the source yes...
07:04:44 <pikhq> That is fucking scary.
07:04:55 <Vorpal> ~/src/lyx/lyx-2.0.0 $ du -sh boost/
07:05:06 <Vorpal> not the whole thing I guess
07:06:38 <pikhq> KKK counterprotesting Westboro Baptist.
07:06:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, aren't they roughly on the same side?
07:07:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not quite.
07:07:19 <pikhq> Westboro Baptist is convinced that America is horribly evil.
07:07:26 <pikhq> The KKK is hypernationalist.
07:07:44 <pikhq> And Westboro Baptist protests the military quite extensively.
07:07:49 <pikhq> Which the KKK considers almost holy.
07:08:45 <pikhq> Y'know you're bad when a hate group is protesting your hate. :P
07:10:08 * Vorpal wonders how to get data out a RAID-1ed disk of a shut down computer with just one external hd cabinet. Without declaring one disk failed first that is
07:10:25 <Vorpal> I'm only interested in read access... I wonder if it is possible
07:10:45 <pikhq> RAID-1? Uh, just treat it like a single drive.
07:11:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes well it is mdraid
07:11:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, I doubt linux will be all that happy to mount it without both disks accessible
07:11:40 <pikhq> You can just mount it directly.
07:11:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, how? some device mapper thingy to skip the mdraid metadata block at the start?
07:12:06 <Vorpal> or wait, was it at the end
07:12:44 <Vorpal> besides it is lvm2 on top of mdraid, and blindly ignoring the metadata block there sounds... dangerous...
07:13:48 <pikhq> Are you going to write to it?
07:14:02 <pikhq> Then there is nothing that can possibly go wrong.
07:14:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the metadata block for mdraid? Won't you need to somehow map it out
07:15:13 <Vorpal> oh hm mdadm has --run to assemble it seems
07:16:02 <pikhq> Eh, just start the RAID up. It'll work just fine off a single disk, since it *is* RAID-1.
07:16:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but when I put these back together, won't it complain hm
07:16:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, even if I mount read only I'm not sure lvm will not touch anything
07:17:02 <pikhq> LVM will only touch things if you directly modify things.
07:17:19 <pikhq> Say, by creating a new volume.
07:17:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, so no updating of last timestamps in metadata blocks or such?
07:18:01 <pikhq> There are no timestamps in the LVM metadata.
07:18:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, well if this doesn't work I know who to blame :P
07:18:25 <pikhq> Nor any means of updating the LVM metadata without directly executing one of the LVM utils, for that matter.
07:19:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I will need to execute vgscan and vgchange to detect and enable/disable the vg
07:19:44 <pikhq> Yeah, those only read, so...
07:21:06 <Vorpal> I wonder what use this screwdriver is... the flat head is less than a mm wide
07:22:31 <olsner> for driving 0.6mm screws, of course
07:23:08 <fizzie> The metadata block's at the end of the disk, so you can use it "directly" too; it's just that the default lvm.conf sets md_component_detection = 1, so it will ignore partitions that have md superblocks in order to not be confused when it sees the same physical volume three (or more) times.
07:23:08 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah but come on, even the screws on glasses aren't that small. They are usually 1 mm
07:23:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, that's nice and sane.
07:23:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, was that sarcastic?
07:24:29 <pikhq> Makes sense with how LVM literally scans all attached volumes for LVM physical volumes...
07:25:24 <Vorpal> annoying... I need to remove the AGP card to be able to get the hdd out. Sigh
07:26:04 <Vorpal> makes you wonder how they managed to fit those huge old ISA cards...
07:27:05 <pikhq> Well, you could use an IBM XT in lieu of cinderblocks.
07:28:19 <fizzie> If you want to be extra careful, mdadm has a --readonly command that you can use to mark an array read-only, before running any LVM ops.
07:29:03 <fizzie> The md superblock has a timestamp, but as far as I know it isn't touched unless you do a write request on the array.
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07:36:56 <Vorpal> I wonder if this external cabinet handles large disks correctly
08:05:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, another thing that annoys me with Ultima 7: The font.
08:05:10 <Vorpal> sure it looks all nice. But it *is* hard to read.
08:05:28 <Vorpal> I'd much rather have a boring sans-serif
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08:21:31 <Vorpal> why did cdparanoia decide to rip at 1x
08:22:13 <fizzie> It makes the experience more authentic.
08:22:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, sometimes it rip at 8x
08:23:05 <Vorpal> I just don't understand how it decides what speed to use
08:24:49 <Vorpal> considering the cd is almost full this is indeed annoying
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09:52:06 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that he has an exam in a couple of hours with the guy in his school who reads it.
09:53:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good luck. Yesterday I finished my last exam for a while.
09:53:42 <Vorpal> Well apart from the driving one in a few weeks
09:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It is exactly the kind of boring procedural thing you do with an air of infuriating smugness.
09:54:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? Well I heard that Sweden have amongst the hardest driving exams in the world
09:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You're taking the exam in a few weeks and all you have is international gossip to go on?
09:55:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I think I will manage it. The theoretical part should not pose any issue.
09:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, atm I'm playing Ultima VII. My main issue with that game is that the font used for dialogs and so seems to be "Old English" or such.
09:56:57 <Vorpal> rather hard to read anyway
09:57:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you sure how that typeface is spelled?
09:58:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because iirc the typeface I'm referring to is named "Old English"
09:58:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm referring to the typeface, not the language
09:59:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and some signs use god damn runes. And no this isn't just a case of your character doing a lore check like in D&D to decode it... The manual has a mapping table
09:59:23 <Vorpal> the rest... is up to you.
09:59:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and it uses "thou" and so on instead of "you". The language is fake Olde English.
10:01:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, example of the typeface: http://www.it-he.org/u7/u7_bpot2.gif
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10:01:53 <Vorpal> while it looks great.... it is harder to read. If it was just the occasional bit of text it wouldn't matter. But every single in game text is either that sort of font, or runes.
10:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/hnzwx/til_that_a_majority_of_biologists_believe_earth/c1wxejf
10:15:18 <fizzie> I've heard the same gossip w.r.t. the US/UK driver's license tests, in the sense that the UK is notably more difficult. I don't really know where other countries fall in that spectrum.
10:15:44 <fizzie> At least failing it is not considered especially surprising in Finland; though on the other hand passing it on the first try isn't particularly rare either.
10:16:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds like Sweden there
10:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the impression from people at my school doing the test isn't one of insurmountable difficulty, but I wasn't really paying attention to the people taking it.
10:17:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Do you have night-driving/winter-driving sessions in the training part?
10:17:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, the latter at least. And you get the former during winter automatically :P
10:18:20 <fizzie> We do it in a special track when it's summer.
10:18:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, the latter we do on a special track.
10:18:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I did it during autumn. They put some bio-degradable oil on the track to simulate slippery surface.
10:19:15 <fizzie> I don't know what they used here, some sort of liquid anyway.
10:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, ah, over here when the roads get slippery we smear them with salt and act like it's unusual.
10:21:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, over here that isn't realistic :P
10:21:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (There was grit on the path in front of my school until well into spring.)
10:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The particles are larger, and there's a lot of salt in it.
10:23:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well we do put sand, and salt on roads. Well salt mostly on the highways and other large roads.
10:23:17 <fizzie> The thing they use for "sanding" (which is what it's called if you just translate literally) is quite a coarse mixture too.
10:23:44 <Lymia> fizzie, where do you live?
10:23:47 <Vorpal> I have never looked closely of what it is made of, but it is called "sanda" in Swedish, so I assumed it was indeed sand
10:23:54 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, lowers the freezing tempature, right?
10:23:56 <Vorpal> Lymia, and Sweden for me
10:24:19 <Vorpal> not nearly enough though
10:24:25 <Vorpal> iirc it stops working below -15 C or so
10:24:48 <Lymia> How did I accidentally omit a subjcet?
10:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Although according to WP CaCl_2 is preferred since it dissolves exothermically.
10:25:56 <Vorpal> "While salt was once a scarce commodity in history, industrialized production has now made salt plentiful. Approximately 51% of world output is now used by cold countries to de-ice roads in winter, both in grit bins and spread by winter service vehicles." <-- heh, 51%... that is quite a bit
10:26:50 * Lymia thinks Japanese is getting to her brain, even though she doesn't really know that much
10:26:54 <Lymia> Guh. What's with my k key.
10:27:21 <Phantom_Hoover> According to WP it's -21°C theoretically, although you can practically go down to -22°.
10:27:38 <Lymia> Can you make it go lower with other chemicals?
10:27:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is unusual. Often the theoretically limit is further out than the practical one!
10:28:14 <Vorpal> Lymia, you mean like glycol?
10:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> While salt... I think we get it mostly from a mine in Ireland here.
10:28:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah you don't need much.
10:30:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I mean, aren't there palms in south UK iirc. Not native, but as far as I heard, they survive along the south coast in some places.
10:30:11 <Vorpal> not sure if this is true
10:32:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, btw, they do use antifreeze on runways sometimes. And on the outside of planes
10:33:25 <Vorpal> specifically ethylene glycol
10:33:38 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, if antifreeze doesn't work, wood + fire will.
10:33:54 <Vorpal> Lymia, where do /you/ live?
10:34:12 <Vorpal> somewhere hot probably
10:34:22 <Vorpal> because that idea is outright silly for deicing roads.
10:35:18 <Lymia> Vorpal, it's a joke.
10:35:41 <Lymia> Burning stuff on the roads is never a good idea, don't you think?
10:35:46 <Lymia> Because roads are near houses.
10:36:03 <Vorpal> Lymia, only sometimes. Most of the time roads are next to forests rather
10:36:21 <Vorpal> Lymia, plus of course it would block the road for non-fireproof cars
10:36:32 <Lymia> Vorpal, screw that.
10:36:35 <Lymia> All cars should be fireproof.
10:36:36 <Vorpal> Lymia, yes, quickly defrosts a large area. There might be side effects
10:37:19 <Vorpal> but I doubt wildfires are likely during winter. The snow would melt ant quickly put it out.
10:37:29 <Lymia> If fire doesn't work, use bombers.
10:37:38 <Vorpal> Lymia, how would that help?
10:37:44 <Lymia> By blowing up the ice.
10:37:54 <Lymia> Explosions always, help, right.
10:38:02 <Lymia> Uh.. the road being damaged?
10:38:08 <Lymia> Acceptable collateral damage.
10:38:21 <Vorpal> Lymia, what when the ice is the road though?
10:38:43 <Vorpal> Lymia, we have some lake roads during winter when the ice is thick enough to drive a car on.
10:39:00 <Vorpal> I think Finland have a few of those too
10:40:34 <Lymia> Vorpal, apply napalm.
10:40:50 <Vorpal> Lymia, that would make the road non-functional :P
10:42:37 <Lymia> The goal is deicing, right?
10:42:52 <Vorpal> hm this one looks like it is in bad condition... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ice_road_saimaa.JPG
10:43:26 <Lymia> People actually use shortcuts like that often?
10:43:39 <Lymia> Vorpal, the solution to that is a sander.
10:43:41 <Vorpal> Lymia, mostly they go to islands that have ferry services during summer.
10:43:56 <Lymia> So during winter...
10:44:07 <Vorpal> Lymia, I heard they use hovercrafts during the periods neither cars nor boats can pass them.
10:44:17 <Vorpal> Lymia, coolest school bus ever.
10:44:24 <Lymia> Technology to the rescue..
10:44:33 <Lymia> Why don't they use hovercrafts when boats work?
10:44:55 <Vorpal> you mean, even during the periods when cars work?
10:45:24 <Lymia> Even during the periods when the boats work.
10:45:40 <Lymia> How much more expensive is it?
10:45:49 <Vorpal> Lymia, more expensive. Besides I don't we have many gigantic hovercrafts in Sweden. While there are quite a lot of ships.
10:46:09 <Vorpal> and there are always the ubiquitous yellow public service free ferries.
10:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <Lymia> Why don't they use hovercrafts when boats work?
10:48:19 <Vorpal> Lymia, typical Swedish ferry: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:MSFredrika.jpg
10:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to run the fans on the bottom, and they can't be very fuel-efficient.
10:49:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I know for a fact that they use hovercraft for schoolbus service during the period neither boats nor cars work on an island some 30-40 km from here.
10:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Although we did have one going across the Firth of Forth for 12 days, apparently.
10:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is odder still, since there are not one but two perfectly functional bridges going across it already at about the same place.
10:49:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for 12 days? Not a long term investment there
10:50:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (Well, OK, it cut out a large U-turn between Portobello and Kirkaldy, so it was probably faster.)
10:51:03 <Vorpal> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:By%C3%A4lvan1.JPG<
10:51:15 <Vorpal> come a bridge there would be cheap
10:52:26 <fizzie> We do have ice roads, too; though only four official ones, and they're all pretty short.
10:52:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think we have some 8-12 or so
10:53:26 <Vorpal> Lymia, which country? You never told me when I asked above.
10:53:31 <fizzie> The Vuonislahti/Koli one is quite a shortcut, though; it drops the Lieksa-Koli trip from 92 km to 41 km, even though the road itself is short.
10:53:52 <Vorpal> Lymia, really? I would have expected some in Alaska
10:54:05 <Vorpal> Lymia, wikipedia claims Canada have a few though
10:54:05 <Lymia> I'm currently in China on a visit to family.
10:54:27 <fizzie> Aw, Google Maps doesn't show the ice roads.
10:54:39 <Lymia> fizzie, does it use it in instructions?
10:55:03 <fizzie> Maybe they alter the maps when it's open.
10:55:18 <fizzie> OpenStreetMap has a line for it.
10:55:30 <fizzie> http://osm.org/go/02NwdNs--
10:56:22 <fizzie> Sounds like university entrace exams out there.
10:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, no ferry service during summer?
10:56:38 <fizzie> There's a ferry service directly to Lieksa.
10:56:45 <fizzie> For some reason it's only shown one zoom-level deeper.
10:57:07 <fizzie> Or maybe that dashed line is something else.
10:57:11 <fizzie> There's a ferry, anyway.
10:57:27 <Vorpal> the island named "Vinön" on here http://osm.org/go/0ZoOVcB has a winter road
10:58:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://p.zem.fi/mzt7 -- Google Maps has the ferry line.
10:58:14 <Vorpal> Vuonislahti, 81590 Lieksa, Finland to Koli
10:58:14 <Vorpal> Lieksa, Vuonislahti, Finland to Koli
10:58:35 <fizzie> Oh, it must not know all the context in the link or something.
10:58:35 <Vorpal> weird, worked when I retried it
10:58:43 <Lymia> Does Google still tell you to swim to China?
10:59:18 <fizzie> They removed the "swim across the Atlantic Ocean" one, but I think they left the "kayak across the Pacific" in.
10:59:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, the link for the ferry line prefers the line route
10:59:58 <Lymia> Does it path things that would have been "swim across the Atlantic" across the Pacific now?
11:00:05 <Vorpal> "We could not calculate directioWe could not calculate directions between Westminster, London, UK and Beijing, China.ns between Westminster, London, UK and Beijing, China." <--- aww
11:00:42 <Vorpal> hm "We could not calculate directions between Westminster, London, UK and Beijing, China." now it worked
11:00:56 <Vorpal> why did it not work properly first time, and no I didn't double paste
11:01:21 <fizzie> Lymia: I think it does say "can't route" to some. But if you ask for driving directions from, say, San Francisco to somewhere in Japan, it'll say "Kayak across the Pacific Ocean (6243 km)" as one step.
11:01:57 <fizzie> "We could not calculate directions between New York, NY and Helsinki, Finland." :/
11:02:37 <Patashu> I wonder if the 'swim across the ocean' thing is a google joke
11:02:48 <fizzie> San Francisco, CA, United States → Nagoya, Aichi Prefecture, Japan gives you a nice 35-day trip, though.
11:02:57 <Patashu> It was giving directions that made you go across the ocean, or it was found that it could
11:03:04 <Lymia> fizzie, Alaska->Daiichi?
11:03:15 <fizzie> It also does "Kayak across the Pacific Ocean" twice; first to Hawaii, then from there on.
11:03:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, gah you beat me to that.
11:04:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't seem to follow great-circle paths though hm
11:04:37 <fizzie> I assume they've added single ferry-line style "kayak across" links there.
11:04:47 <fizzie> Instead of being able to just kayak everywhere.
11:04:58 <fizzie> It doesn't route me from Anchorage, Alaska to Japan at all.
11:05:02 <Lymia> If I was a programmer, I would add in code for that just for the lulz.
11:05:14 <Lymia> Cacluate a few roads of minimum kayak distance.
11:05:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, since it doesn't go from SF directly out, but first up to Seattle, I think you are right
11:05:47 <fizzie> It also doesn't route you through the Bering Strait at all.
11:05:51 <Vorpal> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=sv&geocode=FVJmQAIdKAe0-CkhAGkAbZqFgDH_rXbwZxNQSg%3BFRCUIAIduoZTCCnnVy7whxtdYDGJG1cii2EBLg&q=San+Francisco,+Kalifornien,+USA+till+Tokyo,+Japan&aq=&sll=37.714245,-122.500305&sspn=0.646385,1.466675&ie=UTF8&ll=47.6468,-122.341089&spn=0.017203,0.045834&z=15&saddr=San+Francisco,+Kalifornien,+USA&daddr=Tokyo,+Japan
11:06:41 <fizzie> You sometimes get ridiculous-looking walking directions since it considers taking a ferry "walking", and those don't count in the distance. I think I had a screenshot and/or link somewhere.
11:07:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait it suggested water scooter from Japan to china!!
11:07:52 <fizzie> Yes, I thought there was some third one like that.
11:08:16 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/google-walk.png -- from Copenhagen to Amsterdam, the best way to walk is via two cities in Norway and one in the UK.
11:08:45 <fizzie> At least you'll see the sights.
11:09:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you actually want those walking directions=
11:09:32 <fizzie> I wanted train routes, but it didn't do trains at that point.
11:09:33 <Lymia> Why does Google not have a warning asking "are you sure you want walking directions?"
11:09:44 <fizzie> The driving directions were a better approximation, though.
11:10:18 <fizzie> It does public transit, but only in a very limited set of locations.
11:10:22 <fizzie> "Your search for transit directions from Copenhagen, Denmark to Amsterdam, Netherlands appears to be outside our current coverage area. Please consult our list of participating public transit agencies."
11:11:13 <fizzie> I think it only does intra-city public transportation, mostly.
11:11:57 <fizzie> Helsinki and Oslo have "transit layer" maps, but no schedules; nothing in Sweden.
11:14:29 <fizzie> The "transit layer" for Helsinki seems pretty pointless, too. From what I can tell, it has our single subway line, and then a map of the tram network but not even the routes designated, just the tracks in single color.
11:15:10 <fizzie> Oh, if you zoom in enough it shows the tram stops too.
11:15:15 <fizzie> But the tooltips are in Japanese.
11:15:51 <fizzie> I wonder if that's because the first thing I did this session was the driving directions from Nagoya, Japan to the US.
11:15:57 <fizzie> Maybe it remembers that.
11:16:49 <fizzie> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&hl=en&mra=ls&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&sll=51.628248,-0.241699&sspn=1.239506,2.458191&ie=UTF8&ll=60.161593,24.945188&spn=0.007762,0.019205&z=16&lci=transit_comp&start=0
11:17:02 <fizzie> I think that should open Helsinki and the transit layer too after a moment.
11:17:19 <Vorpal> Japanse busstop tooltips for me yea
11:17:39 <fizzie> Opening them gives the proper (Finnish) name of the stop, as well as list of trams that stop there.
11:17:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, report the bug?
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11:18:46 <fizzie> One tooltip is with the Cyrillic alphabet.
11:19:41 <fizzie> Too amusing to report.
11:19:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, cyrillic too? heh
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11:20:58 <Vorpal> Lymia, wikipedia says there is an ice road in mainland US
11:22:14 <fizzie> What an egoistic name for a lake.
11:22:17 <Vorpal> and at least two in Alaska
11:22:24 <fizzie> What, it's better than all the other lakes, huh?
11:22:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Superior#Name
11:23:04 <Vorpal> or at least that is the reason for the name
11:25:12 <fizzie> Admittedly it's quite big.
11:25:24 <fizzie> Something like three times the surface area of the Gulf of Finland; and something like 20% of the Baltic Sea.
11:25:36 <fizzie> To put it in more familiar context as seen from this end of the world.
11:27:18 <fizzie> (18.7 times the size of the largest lake in Finland.)
11:29:07 <Lymia> "Lake Superior is the largest freshwater lake in the world by surface area"
11:29:17 <Lymia> At least it isn't a misleading name.
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11:31:52 <fizzie> It's not the size of the lake, it's... uh, how you... use it? Anyway. It's still a pompous name.
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11:36:20 <Sgeo> Why _shouldn't_ I randomly lose my Internet connection?
11:36:27 <Vorpal> Lymia, what about volume?
11:36:54 <fizzie> "Water volume 2,900 cu mi (12,000 km3)"
11:36:55 <Vorpal> Lymia, besides you can't model a lake as a rectangular box.
11:37:05 <fizzie> Sounds like a bit rounded figure.
11:37:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, slipped on the keyboard?
11:37:39 <Lymia> Vorpal, no, but it is a good estimation.
11:37:44 <Lymia> As long as they provide average depth.
11:38:10 <Lymia> Actually, isn't average depth*surface area equal to the total volume
11:38:39 <Vorpal> Lymia, how do you define average depth? sampling lots of points on a regular grid and taking the mean value?
11:39:02 <fizzie> Integrating over the lake, obviously.
11:39:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... was that a joke?
11:39:29 <Lymia> Vorpal, I was talking more mathematically, but that works as an approximation, I guess.
11:39:53 <fizzie> That's funny; the Lake Superior article is inconsistent. In the intro paragraph it says "It is the second largest freshwater lake in the world by surface area, after Lake Michigan-Huron (which though traditionally considered two lakes is hydrologically one lake),[2][3][4] and is the world's third-largest freshwater lake by volume.[5]"; while inside the article it says: "Lake Superior is the largest freshwater lake in the world by surface area, and empties into
11:39:53 <fizzie> Lake Huron via the St. Marys River and the Soo Locks. Lake Baikal in Russia is larger by volume, as is Lake Tanganyika."
11:40:56 <Lymia> By surface area vs volume.
11:41:05 <Vorpal> Lymia, even so they manage to confuse that
11:41:14 <Patashu> what if I want to go 1D and compare them by perimeter
11:41:42 <fizzie> The "by volume" part is consistent -- "third largest" and lists two larger ones in the article itself.
11:41:57 <Vorpal> Patashu, you have a fractal issue then
11:42:05 <fizzie> But the "by surface area" part is not; it can't be both the second largest and the largest by surface area.
11:42:27 <Lymia> (which though traditionally considered two lakes is hydrologically one lake)
11:43:39 <fizzie> The data table has a "Shore length is not a well-defined measure" footnote for the perimeter, though it does list a number there.
11:43:42 <Vorpal> Patashu, basically depending on if you follow the contour of every stone along the lake's edge or measure it as a number of straight line segments of longer length you will get different results.
11:43:57 <Vorpal> Patashu, the latter is what measuring it on a map would give you
11:45:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is if you give the algorithm used for it. Say, the perimeter of inscribed polygon that encloses the largest surface area where the length of each polygonal segment is 10 meters.
11:45:34 <Vorpal> I *think* that should be well defined
11:45:41 <Vorpal> how useful it is is another matter
11:46:21 <Vorpal> oh and you should be able to give upper and lower bound by listing the same value but with minimal area and the lake inscribed in the polygon
11:46:42 <Vorpal> I'm not sure how tricky this would be to calculate though...
11:47:21 <fizzie> That wouldn't give you an upper bound for the perimeter.
11:47:40 <Vorpal> would just give me lower bounds
11:47:51 <fizzie> You can have a lower bound by taking the straight-line segments of any arbitrary subset of points on the boundary.
11:48:23 <fizzie> The exact boundary gets a bit ambiguous down there, though; especially if you have rivers that flow in/out the lake.
11:48:30 <Patashu> people would argue lividly about which length for polygon segments should be used, because they want their lake to be longer
11:48:33 <fizzie> (That's a problem for the surface area/volume measures too.)
11:48:45 <Vorpal> Patashu, well sure 1 cm works fine
11:48:58 <Patashu> but if you lower it to 1mm my country's lake will be bigger than yours
11:49:02 <Patashu> and I want that spot in the record books
11:49:12 <Patashu> so we get tourism for 'lake with the biggest perimeter in the world'
11:49:22 <Patashu> not catchy but we'll work on it
11:49:24 <Vorpal> Patashu, all lakes would have to use the same length for the values to be comparable
11:49:25 <fizzie> "Lake with the least amount of sense".
11:49:47 <Patashu> what I'm saying is that lake X might have perimeter > Y for 1 cm, but the opposite might be true for 1mm
11:49:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, upper bound isn't infinite though, is it? After all the universe is not infinitely dividable
11:49:57 <Patashu> e.g. if you remeasured both this way
11:50:22 <Vorpal> Patashu, they are only lower bounds though
11:50:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's probably even harder to say where exactly the boundary of the lake goes when you start shuffling single particles, I would assume.
11:54:04 <Vorpal> Sweden has the third largest lake in Europe, and the 29th in the world. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4nern It is unclear if it is volume or surface area.
11:55:16 <fizzie> Surface area is my guess; it's the most usual measurement.
11:55:49 <fizzie> Our Saimaa is the fourth largest; a bit less than 80% of Vänern.
11:55:53 <Vorpal> it says it is Sweden's largest lake both when it comes to surface and when it comes to volume
11:55:58 <fizzie> (Fourth largest in Europe.)
11:56:08 <fizzie> (80% of surface area.)
11:56:14 <fizzie> (More clarifications.)
11:56:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems the top two lakes in Sweden get the same ordering for volume and for surface
11:57:13 <fizzie> Your lake is more single-blob-ish[1] though. [1] Single-blob-ish is not a well-defined measure.
11:57:29 <Vorpal> link to photo of your one from above
11:57:37 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GreaterSaimaa.gif
11:57:42 <fizzie> That's a highlighted satellite photo.
11:58:03 <Vorpal> yeah that looks like two ones at least
11:58:11 <Vorpal> are you sure they are connected there in the middle?
11:58:56 <fizzie> It's connected, though the connections are pretty narrow at points.
11:59:14 <fizzie> "Most of the lake is spotted with islands, and narrow canals divide the lake in many parts, each having their own names (major basins include Suur-Saimaa, Orivesi, Puruvesi, Haukivesi, Yövesi, Pihlajavesi, and Pyhäselkä)."
11:59:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, this one is tricky, it is connected (through central Stockholm) to the sea: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4laren
12:00:14 <Vorpal> it is fresh water however
12:00:23 <fizzie> "Finland is known as The Land of the Thousand Lakes, (actually there are 187,888 lakes in Finland, of which 60,000 are large),[7] and the U.S. state of Minnesota is known as The Land of Ten Thousand Lakes. The license plates of the Canadian province of Manitoba used to claim 100,000 lakes[8] as one-upmanship on Minnesota, whose license plates boast of its 10,000 lakes.[9]"
12:00:31 <fizzie> Everyone wants a piece of the "most lakes" action.
12:00:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, is "large" well defined there?
12:01:31 <fizzie> There is a rather arbitrary threshold that's often used; it's not mentioned there, but maybe [7] itself mentions it.
12:02:12 <fizzie> Heh, [7] just links to the front page of Statistics Finland, the national institution of statistics and stuff.
12:02:30 <fizzie> Anyway, I've heard that number earlier; can't recall what constituted "large" there.
12:02:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, check the link, maybe they moved things around and it redirects everything to the front page
12:02:56 <fizzie> Nope, it's directly to /index_en.html in the Wiki side too.
12:03:16 <Vorpal> hm an image that is 24,576×24,576 pixels. I don't think I will open that one in a browser
12:03:17 <fizzie> The Lake page does already talk of the vagueness between lake and pond, though.
12:05:11 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake#Notable_lakes sorts by coastline length too, without mentioning how it was measured.
12:05:19 <Patashu> I told you guys that there was big money in lakes
12:05:30 <fizzie> "Lake Manitou, located on Manitoulin Island, is the largest lake on an island in a freshwater lake."
12:05:44 <fizzie> How about the largest lake on an island in a lake on an island in a freshwater lake?
12:06:11 <Patashu> Except to have an island with a lake on it wouldn't it then be surrounded by a -sea-
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12:07:39 <fizzie> I guess that depends on the definition; many would insist on saline water for seas.
12:08:57 <Vorpal> what about semi-saline ones?
12:09:02 <fizzie> There's at least one recursive island -- an island in a lake (probably pretty small one) on an island, which in this case I think is in the sea -- somewhere here nearby, though I've forgotten where.
12:09:10 <fizzie> That's either a "lea" or a "sake".
12:10:03 <fizzie> http://blog.toddstadler.com/entry/711 -- related.
12:10:12 <fizzie> That's the same Manitoulin island mentioned above.
12:11:32 <Lymia> fizzie, recursive islands?
12:15:41 <fizzie> Google's zoomed-in satellite photo of Suvisaaristo (a group of islands near the cost here) is... subpar: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.102339,24.711342&spn=0.124411,0.307274&t=h&z=12
12:16:28 <fizzie> Yes; if you zoom one level out it uses a different, cloudless photo.
12:16:55 <Vorpal> what is the difference between continents and islands
12:17:18 <Vorpal> I know australia is a continent and greenland an island
12:17:28 <fizzie> "They [continents] are generally identified by convention rather than any strict criteria, with seven regions commonly regarded as continents --"
12:25:10 <Sgeo> I'm a bit weirded out by Europe and Asia being considered separate continents
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12:31:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, generally they aren't
12:32:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, Eurasia is quite common name on it. Sometimes even Africa is considered part of it (and would be except for a channel)
12:32:41 <Vorpal> same as North and South America is really one single continent
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14:55:09 <ais523> There seems something rather wrong with my connection
14:55:27 <ais523> I'm on a connection that's normally very reliable
14:57:56 <ais523> and the only connection I'm making is this IRC one via telnet, together with some standard stuff like NTP
14:57:56 <ais523> I've seen no response for over a minute from a simple PING command
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15:15:16 <ais523> that's better, I think
15:15:26 <ais523> it seems that the wireless router here had decided to give both me, and someone else here, the same IP
15:15:29 <ais523> for reasons I don't fully understand
15:16:10 <CakeProphet> ais523: maybe IPv4 ran out of address space.
15:16:19 <ais523> CakeProphet: it's on 192.168
15:16:26 <ais523> and that has plenty enough space for two computers
15:16:29 <ais523> (it's actually being NATted)
15:17:32 <ais523> IRC and email are being sane now, at least
15:17:35 <ais523> let's see if HTTP is too
15:17:44 <Vorpal> ais523, what happened before then?
15:18:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also you should probably file a bug about that dupe ip thingy
15:18:16 <ais523> Vorpal: well, it was like the network was being really buggy
15:18:27 <ais523> it was full of duplicate packets, out-of-order packets, connections dropping, lag...
15:18:37 <ais523> and there was a huge spate of stuff being blocked by the firewall
15:18:46 <Vorpal> ais523, was there a MAC collision?
15:18:52 <ais523> I traced the IP in the end, it was HTTP responses from Facebook that were being sent to my computer
15:18:54 <Vorpal> they aren't actually that unique in practise
15:19:01 <ais523> I could check the MAC at the other side to make sure
15:19:26 <Vorpal> well if there was a MAC collision it would explain it all
15:20:01 <ais523> I don't think there's one
15:20:08 <ais523> also, this doesn't explain why the same thing happened after rebooting the router
15:20:17 <Vorpal> ais523, uh indeed. File a bug.
15:20:22 <Vorpal> ais523, is this at university?
15:20:30 <ais523> I fixed it by repeatedly bringing my own network interface down and up until it got a different IP over DHCP
15:20:33 <ais523> and no, it's at a friend's house
15:20:55 <Vorpal> ais523, well... maybe the other computer is configured for static ip
15:20:55 <ais523> and the router is just a supplied one with default settings (other than password because we're not that stupid)
15:21:05 <ais523> the other computer is dynamic IP too
15:21:17 <Vorpal> ais523, report a bug definitely then
15:21:27 <Vorpal> ais523, unless there is a MAC collision that is
15:21:28 <ais523> and complained about an IP collision for a bit, then decided everything was fine when we clicked the more-info button (it runs Windows)
15:22:16 <Vorpal> ais523, well checking MAC should be a high priority, and if no collision report a bug
15:29:17 <ais523> how do you check MAC under Windows?
15:29:39 <ais523> also, can you just "report a bug" against a commercial home router that's completely uncustomized? it's not like it's one of those crazy DD-WRT things
15:39:17 <olsner> if you have WINDOWS it's not MAC
16:12:37 <Gregor> We have free deluxe soda here at Mozilla. The brand is "Natural Brew". It's easily the worst soda I have ever had the displeasure of trying.
16:13:59 <ais523> Gregor: you work for both Microsoft and Mozilla now?
16:14:13 <Gregor> ais523: Yup. Gonna get Google in there and have the trifecta.
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16:15:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, well yeah, but your judgement can't be trusted, other than on matters of fnarf.
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16:30:48 <Vorpal> <ais523> how do you check MAC under Windows? <-- network interface details iirc
16:31:01 <ais523> I was trying just ipconfig, but it didn't show up there
16:31:36 <Vorpal> ais523, well if it is xp go to network iirc, find the interface, click status. Should get you a dialog with two tabs and some buttons. iirc there is a button on the second tab for it
16:32:06 <Vorpal> ais523, if you have the network card interface symbol in the corner next to the clock you can click on that iirc
16:32:16 <Vorpal> no idea for later versions
16:37:04 * Phantom_Hoover wonders which of the new tracks will be the end of act flash.
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16:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the songs is the music from *http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002655*
16:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> That's at *least* a year and around 11 albums until it was released.
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17:03:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, funnily enough, guess what part of the year I was born
17:08:27 <cheater_> would a 1V5 tube deliver 300V?
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18:20:03 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> so is irssi what all the cool kids use?
18:24:22 <oerjan> zeus, lan a canal, suez
18:29:17 * oerjan laughs at today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/
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19:16:26 <pikhq_> It actually installs .la files.
19:17:00 <pikhq_> Which, BTW, do something vaguely similar to pkgconfig --libs. ... If you link all your programs with libtool.
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19:35:46 <elliott> 07:02:17: <Vorpal> whoa, lyx has an option "--without-included-boost"
19:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: you're _meant_ to use boost by including the header files in your source tree
19:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, about 15 MB of boost included. plus some library parts of it
19:37:05 <oerjan> templates for disaster
19:39:22 <pikhq_> I *despise* embedding libraries in a package's source tree.
19:39:30 <pikhq_> In UNIX land, it is always the Wrong Thing.
19:39:45 <elliott> pikhq_: Yeah but this is Boost, it doesn't even have object files. :p
19:39:51 <elliott> It is literally composed of headers.
19:40:07 <pikhq_> ... Which makes that even more pointless, TBH.
19:43:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: It is a cardinal sin many people are guilty of.
19:44:01 <pikhq_> Some packages even go out of their way to make it difficult to do otherwise.
19:44:06 <pikhq_> (looking at *you*, ffmpeg)
19:44:26 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I think in part because it's standard practice in Windows development.
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20:01:18 <elliott> http://pedrocr.net/text/how-much-gnu-in-gnu-linux
20:01:26 <elliott> DESKTOP LINUX SYSTEMS CONTAIN NOT ACTUALLY THAT MUCH GNU???
20:01:42 <elliott> Clearly Stallman will now change his nomenclature to KDE/Linux.
20:03:02 <elliott> "/Some/ of Linux code can be built with toolchains other than GCC (e.g. clang). But surely, other portions of it depend on nonstandard GCC extensions and are useless (or require rewrite) without GCC."
20:09:22 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, nowadays I'm of the opinion that there's just no good way of referring to various distributions of a conglomeration of various bits and pieces into an OS, with Linux as the kernel.
20:10:20 <pikhq> Just "Linux" is a misnomer, and GNU really isn't a more important part, and, uh... Yeah.
20:10:26 <pikhq> There's just no good nomenclature for it.
20:11:10 <elliott> "Linux system" is good enough :P
20:11:23 <elliott> It's common and not entirely inaccurate, so.
20:11:37 <pikhq> I dislike that nomenclature, too, though it at least has common use in favor of it.
20:12:48 <pikhq> It's particularly confusing to the ignorant, as Linux really isn't The Defining Feature in the various Unix-likes built on top of Linux.
20:13:05 <pikhq> It can be replaced, just like every other piece.
20:13:22 <elliott> Yeah but nobody really gives a shit about that. :p
20:13:46 <elliott> I mean, most people who use "Linux" don't even know what Linux is or what a kernel is, so it's fairly irrelevant to them.
20:14:03 <elliott> pikhq: But really, "Unix-alike" is... ugly and inaccurate, but decent.
20:14:30 <elliott> Only useful for the technical-minded, but then the non-technical-minded don't give a shit, just say "Ubuntu" or whatever you're installing for them :P
20:14:57 <pikhq> Yeah, if a specific distro is being discussed, then nomenclature gets really, really easy.
20:15:05 <ais523> elliott: I thought both clang and icc had implemented enough gcc extensions that they could do huge amounts of linux, possibly even the whole thing
20:15:21 <Deewiant> clang can't do the whole thing, at least
20:15:24 <elliott> ais523: Obviously I quoted that and then commented on the ignorance of redditors to show that I agreed with them :P
20:15:31 <pikhq> ais523: I think there's one or two bits that prevent it still.
20:15:31 <elliott> Oh right, it's icc that got a bootable kernel.
20:15:40 <olsner> didn't clang compile the linux kernel already? or was that just a BSD kernel?
20:15:55 <pikhq> Something to do with clang not supporting *all* of the embedded ASM that Linux uses.
20:17:38 <pikhq> Ah, it's possible to build most of Linux with clang, but there's still a few bits broken.
20:17:51 <Deewiant> http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=9254 is a WONTFIX that Linux depends on
20:18:05 <pikhq> Module loading straight-up doesn't work, and the VDSO and boot stuff don't build right.
20:18:40 <pikhq> Building the VDSO and boot with GCC gets you a booting Linux kernel, though some non-essential subsystems won't work.
20:18:51 <pikhq> Source: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2010-October/011711.html
20:19:00 <elliott> array in structure' extension will never be supported
20:19:39 <elliott> "I agree. This an nested functions are two things we really really don't want
20:19:44 <elliott> Deewiant: clang isn't implementing nested functions?
20:20:15 <pikhq> Nested functions are a total bitch to support right, and GCC's support for it is an epic hack, TBH.
20:22:06 <TeruFSX> this might be the wrong place to ask but do you know where I could find somebody who can use CDC Cyber BASIC
20:32:55 <lambdabot> Prelude class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a
20:33:13 <elliott> does anything actually use RealFrac...
20:33:25 <elliott> oh wait, RealFloat requires it, ugh
20:36:42 <elliott> isIEEE seems like it should be a constant
20:39:35 <ais523> I seem to remember that Algol 68's standard prelude defines + in terms of -
20:41:28 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/portaudio-0.0.1 ;; bleh, this is rather incomplete
20:41:46 * elliott looks at the other bindings
20:42:34 <elliott> *Main> length (second (sin :: Signal Double))
20:42:38 <elliott> hmm, that's an off-by-one, isn't it?
20:45:04 <lambdabot> forall a b. (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
20:45:28 <elliott> oerjan: I'm defining instances for functions, so all my RealFrac functions are const (error "...") :P
20:46:22 <oerjan> > isIEEE (undefined :: Double) -- as close to constant as you can get
20:47:07 <elliott> isIEEE f = isIEEE (f 0) -- ???
20:47:31 <oerjan> i believe not looking at the argument is a requirement for that function
20:47:36 <elliott> Now all my instance functions are point-free ;D
20:48:01 <elliott> oerjan: So I should do "isIEEE _ = isIEEE (undefined :: a)"?
20:48:22 <elliott> Oh, don't even need ScopedTypeVariables.
20:50:18 <lambdabot> Data.Ix range :: Ix a => (a, a) -> [a]
20:50:19 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax data Range
20:50:35 <lambdabot> System.Random genRange :: RandomGen g => g -> (Int, Int)
20:50:49 <oerjan> > genRange (undefined :: StdGen)
20:50:58 <elliott> I wish they used Tagged instead
20:51:36 <oerjan> i guess that wasn't invented
20:52:08 <elliott> It's an obvious invention :P
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21:14:53 <elliott> Disasterisk sounds like a metal band.
21:15:00 <elliott> DISASTER + RISK = DISASTERISK
21:20:50 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/hoxbo/how_do_i_apply_to_join_the_haskell_cult_yes_i/c1x80kt it's all clear now
21:25:27 <oerjan> > oerjan `elem` REDACTED
21:25:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `oerjan'Not in scope: data constructor `REDACTED'
21:26:37 <Gregor> "was that it was to be a" <-- greatest fragment of English ever.
21:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The greatest flaw of C++ was that it was to be an OO language based on C, which is just idiotic.
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21:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <merijn> Phantom_Hoover: Consistent type system -> strong termination -> not Turing complete
21:44:40 <elliott> It's true that the type system has to be sub-TC.
21:44:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: consider that Haskell's type system is inconsistent
21:45:11 <elliott> So yes, a TC language has an inconsistent logic as its type system.
21:45:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But in terms of the actual _type system_, not in terms of the logic it represents.
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21:46:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: define consistent
21:59:39 <augur> elliott: hey kiddo
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22:29:49 <elliott> > concatMap (replicate 9) [0,9,0,9]
22:29:49 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9]
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23:42:26 <CakeProphet> this is by far the most active channel I frequent that isn't a programming language channel.
23:48:11 <Gregor> But it IS a programming-language channel!
23:48:23 <elliott> CakeProphet: thanks to MEEE
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