←2011-06-29 2011-06-30 2011-07-01→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:12:46 <Lymee> > [1..] \\ [1,2,3,4,5]
00:12:46 <lambdabot> [6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,...
00:17:41 <ais523> [1..] \\ [2..]
00:17:44 <ais523> > [1..] \\ [2..]
00:17:48 <ais523> timeout, presumably
00:17:48 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
00:17:51 <ais523> although it would be amazing if it worked
00:18:29 <Lymee> It would be easy, wouldn't it.
00:18:41 <Lymee> Create a new infinite list which checks if the element is in the second list before yielding it.
00:18:50 <Lymee> Do a linear search which short circuits.
00:18:54 <Lymee> Is this hard in Haskell?
00:19:15 <Lymee> > [1..] \\ [2,4..]
00:19:19 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
00:19:22 <Lymee> Oh right.
00:19:31 <Lymee> If it doesn't exist, you end up with an infinite loop.
00:19:34 <Lymee> > [1..] \\ [1..]
00:19:38 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
00:28:44 <lifthrasiir> > let r = 1 : map (* 2) r in [1..] \\ r
00:28:51 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
00:29:03 <Patashu> why can't haskell do proper strength reduction!!!!
00:29:47 <oerjan> > let odiff [] _ = []; odiff l [] = l; odiff xss@(x:xs) yss@(y:ys) = case compare x y of LT -> x:odiff xs yss; EQ -> odiff xs ys; GT -> odiff xss ys in odiff [1..] [2,4..]
00:29:50 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5...
00:30:11 <oerjan> Patashu: what?
00:30:15 <Patashu> nevermin
00:40:13 <Lymee> >[1,3..]
00:40:17 <Lymee> > [1,3..]
00:40:18 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5...
00:40:22 <Lymee> Do I win?
00:42:00 <ais523> I think you missed the point of the question
00:42:02 <oerjan> a very small trinket, perhaps.
00:52:01 <CakeProphet> oerjan: that above only works on ordered lists right?
00:52:14 <oerjan> yes, that was the idea
00:55:39 <oerjan> and it could fail on data types other than integers, if infinitely many elements of the first list are larger than all of the second infinite one
00:56:38 <oerjan> ...actually, if _any_ element of the first list is larger than all of the second one
00:57:13 <CakeProphet> ah, yes.
00:57:38 <oerjan> > let odiff [] _ = []; odiff l [] = l; odiff xss@(x:xs) yss@(y:ys) = case compare x y of LT -> x:odiff xs yss; EQ -> odiff xs ys; GT -> odiff xss ys in odiff [Left 10, Right 1] [Left n | n <- [1,3..]]
00:57:41 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
00:57:50 <CakeProphet> but if the second list is ordered in increasing order to infinity this is usually not the case, unless your data type has some sort of non-linear ordering.
00:58:13 <oerjan> CakeProphet: um that's what i meant by "non-integer"
00:58:25 <oerjan> and that was an example above
00:58:54 <oerjan> (technically that Left 10 should have got through, but i guess the timeout didn't keep the output)
01:00:32 <oerjan> also that's not non-linear, there are just two consecutive copies of the Integers.
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01:01:45 <oerjan> > let odiff [] _ = []; odiff l [] = l; odiff xss@(x:xs) yss@(y:ys) = case compare x y of LT -> x:odiff xs yss; EQ -> odiff xs ys; GT -> odiff xss ys in odiff [-1/10 :: Rational, 1] [-1/n | n <- [1,3..]]
01:01:49 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
01:04:35 <oerjan> "The Soviet Soyuz 11 spacecraft suffered an uncontrolled decompression during reentry, killing cosmonauts Vladislav Volkov, Georgiy Dobrovolskiy and Viktor Patsayev—the only human deaths to occur in space."
01:05:18 <oerjan> so as far as we know, no human being has ever got _lost_ in space...
01:06:28 <quintopia> major tom did
01:06:40 <quintopia> his capsule knew which way to go, though
01:06:48 <quintopia> so he's probably alright
01:06:59 <oerjan> O KAY
01:08:31 <oerjan> so if i calculate correctly, today agora is an adult
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01:08:51 <quintopia> 18 years old?
01:08:55 <oerjan> yeah
01:15:27 <augur> so finns
01:15:30 <augur> tell me about july 27th
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01:26:51 <zzo38> Today I was trying to figure out how to switch the Linux console into codepage 437 (at FreeGeek). I eventually figured out but it was a bit difficult. It required using the dd command with another dd command in a ` ` piped to awk and other things like that.
01:27:00 <zzo38> Is there simpler ways?
01:46:29 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: i don't know; btw why do you need codepage 437?
01:50:01 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Some programs use it (including NetHack) and I wanted to the Linux console using not unicode. I have root access on those machines but it can be configured to work on individual sessions easily using the way I have, so it won't affect anything anyone else does (especially if using X).
01:51:15 <zzo38> The way I did it required a command structure something like this: dd if=/dev/mem skip=`dd if=/dev/mem | od | awk`; consolechars
01:51:33 <zzo38> Note I omitted most of the command-line parameters
01:52:14 <zzo38> Actually, I also used echo -e
01:53:31 <zzo38> echo -e is required to send the codes to turn off unicode and it is also necessary to turn off the character mapping by using the "console chars" program.
01:54:12 <zzo38> However, at least it could be done without rebooting (some documents said you needed to reboot)
01:54:24 * pikhq is distro-shopping. Again.
01:55:08 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder how usable NixOS is.
02:20:48 <CakeProphet> 55 usability points.
02:22:03 <CakeProphet> not satisfied with the usual ambiguities of degree in language, I seek to quantify everything with silly point systems.
02:27:39 <lifthrasiir> 10 ambiguity points.
02:27:51 <lifthrasiir> (silly point) systems or silly (point systems)?
02:28:39 <quintopia> i much like the former
02:28:44 <quintopia> silly points are the best
02:28:47 <monqy> silly ((silly point) systems)
02:29:29 <Lymee> -1 fake lisp points
02:30:43 <CakeProphet> it was more like ((((silly)) ((((point)) ((systems))))))
02:31:04 <CakeProphet> ()()()()()()()()()()()()()
02:31:20 <monqy> quite silly
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02:31:55 <CakeProphet> in cases like the one quintopia likes, I usually hyphenate. silly-point systems.
02:32:25 <CakeProphet> unless it's just clear from context or whatever.
02:32:44 <oerjan> > 28e9/200000**(1/3)
02:32:45 <lambdabot> 4.787932650694753e8
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02:47:13 <CakeProphet> > foldr' (*) 33 (replicate 99999999999 1)
02:47:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `foldr''
02:47:33 <CakeProphet> > foldr \$! (*) 33 (replicate 99999999999 1)
02:47:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b -> b'
02:47:34 <lambdabot> against inferred type `[...
02:47:49 <CakeProphet> :t foldr
02:47:50 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
02:48:30 <oerjan> foldr' makes little sense as a direct recursion
02:48:47 <CakeProphet> this isn't about making sense!
02:48:57 <CakeProphet> it's about inefficient id functions
02:49:16 <oerjan> you'd have to reverse the list first to make it efficient without exhausting the stack
02:50:25 <oerjan> since (*) is strict, you can probably get the same result by just using foldr?
02:51:10 <CakeProphet> > foldr (*) 33 (replicate 99999999999 1)
02:51:11 <lambdabot> *Exception: stack overflow
02:51:25 <CakeProphet> unexpected.
02:51:40 <CakeProphet> > foldr (*) 33 (replicate 9999999 1)
02:51:40 <oerjan> now since (*) is also commutative, foldl' might be equivalent...
02:51:41 <lambdabot> *Exception: stack overflow
02:51:52 <CakeProphet> oerjan: but more efficient right?
02:52:16 <oerjan> well sort of, it won't overflow the stack...
02:52:26 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
02:52:28 <oerjan> and can probably be optimized into a loop
02:52:38 <CakeProphet> > foldr (*) 33 (replicate 9999 1)
02:52:39 <lambdabot> 33
02:52:42 <CakeProphet> > foldr (*) 33 (replicate 999999 1)
02:52:43 <lambdabot> *Exception: stack overflow
02:52:45 <CakeProphet> > foldr (*) 33 (replicate 99999 1)
02:52:46 <lambdabot> 33
02:52:49 <CakeProphet> there we go.
02:54:07 <CakeProphet> > let id1 x = foldr (*) x (replicate 99999 1); id2 = (!!999999999999 . iterate id1;
02:54:08 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
02:54:10 <CakeProphet> oops
02:54:33 <CakeProphet> > let id1 x = foldr (*) x (replicate 99999 1); id2 = (!!999999999999) . (iterate id1) in id2 33
02:54:37 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
02:55:08 <CakeProphet> ..success. Time to write a library for inefficient chaining of inefficient id functions.
02:58:10 <oerjan> i have a hunch that that would have overflowed the stack if it actually got to finish building the thunks...
02:58:35 <oerjan> > let id1 x = foldr (*) x (replicate 99999 1); id2 = (!!999) . (iterate id1) in id2 33
02:58:38 <lambdabot> *Exception: stack overflow
02:58:41 <oerjan> yup
02:59:59 <pikhq> Apparently, NixOS does not currently install.
03:00:24 <oerjan> you can only have NixOS if you already have it. *MWAHAHAHAHA*
03:02:52 <Lymee> NixOS seems interesting.
03:02:55 <Lymee> I'd love to see how it turns out.
03:03:11 <Lymee> > let id1 x = foldl (*) x (replicate 99999 1); id2 = (!!999999999999) . (iterate id1) in id2 33
03:03:15 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a very clever concept.
03:03:20 <lambdabot> *E
03:03:29 <pikhq> But with a completely and utterly broken installer, I have to rate its usability as "0".
03:03:39 <pikhq> (estimation: locks up on boot in qemu)
03:03:43 <Lymee> "if you change the kernel, Nix will ensure that external kernel modules such as the NVIDIA driver will be rebuilt as well"
03:03:55 <coppro> welcome to every sane distroy
03:04:03 <Lymee> :c
03:04:43 <pikhq> coppro: What's more interesting about NixOS is that it makes it very, very difficult to break an install.
03:05:00 <pikhq> For instance, it is pretty much impossible for a library update to break packages.
03:05:15 <pikhq> Well. That's a feature of Nix, which NixOS uses. But you know what I mean.
03:05:54 <quintopia> wow, nix apparently is being developed on ARM
03:06:18 <Lymee> pikhq, sudo rm -rf /usr/lib
03:06:19 <Lymee> Done.
03:06:20 <Lymee> Broken
03:06:25 <quintopia> here's the thing that bothers me about it
03:06:29 <pikhq> Lymee: No such directory.
03:06:35 <Lymee> pikhq, sudo rm -rf /nix
03:06:57 <quintopia> since it never deletes old packages
03:07:00 <pikhq> Yesss, that would break it.
03:07:09 <quintopia> doesn't it slowly eat your storage up?
03:07:22 <pikhq> quintopia: You can call for a collection cycle.
03:07:24 <Lymee> quintopia, I assume it would have an "clean" command or something to manually purge things.
03:07:32 <Lymee> If they didn't think of it, I would be shockced.
03:07:34 <Lymee> shocked*
03:07:51 <pikhq> Thereby telling it to garbage collect any packages not currently referenced by a configuration.
03:07:57 <quintopia> pikhq: so like "delete all configurations before X"?
03:08:17 <pikhq> quintopia: No, you'd do "delete all configurations before X", and then "garbage collect".
03:08:28 <quintopia> ah
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03:17:00 * pikhq is so very tempted to NIH a distro.
03:17:05 <pikhq> This is not a good thing.
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03:27:42 <Lymee> I assume that installing Nix on an existing system is a bad idea.
03:32:43 <quintopia> why
03:32:43 <quintopia> y
03:32:58 <pikhq> Not really.
03:33:03 <pikhq> That's an intended use-case.
03:34:45 <quintopia> so
03:35:03 <quintopia> what if you get bad packages
03:35:13 <quintopia> what if the maintainers fuck up your shit
03:35:25 <pikhq> Okay, so you have a bad package.
03:35:33 <pikhq> And?
03:35:46 <quintopia> yep and you need that package. it's the most important thing you need on your system
03:36:02 <quintopia> how hard is it to fix the build?
03:36:09 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is basically, "imagine that libc fucked up".
03:36:34 <quintopia> yes, or that the package that installs it fucks up or something
03:36:56 <pikhq> Only packages that depend on that specific package will be affected by it.
03:36:57 <quintopia> because packages here seem to be doing a lot more than traditional packages
03:37:09 <pikhq> All others will be depending on the previous libc.
03:38:08 <quintopia> do you think the userbase will be able to keep up with the demand for new packages?
03:39:36 <pikhq> Do you even understand how Nix works?
03:39:53 <pikhq> You're asking questions that make about as much sense as "What if the cat jumps over the moon?"
03:40:35 <quintopia> not completely, but i wouldn't be asking otherwise
03:40:52 <quintopia> but i do understand that a distro is only as good as its userbase
03:41:04 <oerjan> yeah everyone knows it's cows who do that
03:42:21 <pikhq> Okay, so each package has its files in /nix/HASH-pkgname/, where HASH is a cryptographic hash of all its dependencies concatenated (IIRC, things like "configuration settings" are part of that, and I know that build-time dependencies are)
03:42:49 <pikhq> Each package basically refers to files *in those directories*.
03:43:12 <pikhq> So, a package update literally cannot affect other packages unless those packages update.
03:48:07 <quintopia> yeah i got that much
03:48:21 <quintopia> i just wanted to know hard it would be to fiddle with a package
03:48:44 <quintopia> say "this package is broken, but i want this package, and the other users aren't fixing it"
03:49:08 <pikhq> No real problem.
03:49:55 <pikhq> Which packages are active (i.e. have symlinks in ~ for the sake of your PATH) is per-user.
03:50:11 <pikhq> You could just build your own packages, and voila.
03:50:13 <quintopia> and you say you can have multiple versions of the same package simultaneously. how much of a troubleshooting headache would this cause? seems like it would make the system dependency graph a bit hairier.
03:50:31 <pikhq> I don't see why.
03:51:07 <quintopia> because every time you want to fix something, you have to know which versions of which packages it depends on. is there a tool to make that easier?
03:51:26 <pikhq> Yeees, the package manager.
03:52:02 <pikhq> You don't maintain all this *manually*.
03:52:16 <quintopia> obviously, but that's what bothers me you know :P
03:52:43 <quintopia> it makes it harder for me to visualize the weak points in the system
03:53:18 <pikhq> You might wish to read up on the Nix expression language.
03:54:05 <quintopia> okay
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04:18:59 <BeedaWeeda> do you think that if you were a kid and you were told growing up that jack and the bean stalk was religion that by the time you got older you would be defending jack and the bean stalk instead of jesus christ?
04:21:07 <monqy> sorry i dont religion
04:21:55 <coppro> ^
04:22:29 <pikhq> BeedaWeeda: No, because I do not defend the myth of IESVS.
04:23:01 <pikhq> But those who do? I'd certainly imagine so.
04:24:10 <pikhq> It is quite demonstrable that religious belief is primarily correlated with the beliefs of ones parents, followed quite closely by the common beliefs of the region.
04:24:19 <monqy> I'd imagine so too, though perhaps not as many
04:24:36 <pikhq> Well, yes; Jack and the Bean Stalk is a much less self-defending meme.
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04:30:57 <BeedaWeeda> if you look back in history
04:31:08 <BeedaWeeda> in ancient civilizations
04:31:38 <BeedaWeeda> they had religious beliefs that are very similar to the ones commonly held today
04:31:45 <BeedaWeeda> messiahs
04:31:46 <BeedaWeeda> gods
04:31:51 <monqy> believable
04:31:57 <BeedaWeeda> and they denounced everyone elses gods
04:32:10 <BeedaWeeda> you can study this and see for yourself
04:32:18 <BeedaWeeda> it just proves that history repeats
04:32:43 <monqy> theory: people are silly
04:33:50 <coppro> proof:
04:34:29 <BeedaWeeda> did you guys see this months edition of national geographic?
04:34:53 <BeedaWeeda> it features that archaeological site in turkey they discovered some decades ago, gobekli tepe
04:34:57 <BeedaWeeda> its funny
04:35:05 <BeedaWeeda> because according to them
04:35:22 <BeedaWeeda> the site was built by primitive cave men, hunter gatherer type people
04:35:30 <pikhq> BeedaWeeda: No argument with that. It is *indeed* quite amusing that most current religious beliefs are very similar to ancient and dead beliefs.
04:35:36 <BeedaWeeda> but then you see
04:35:56 <BeedaWeeda> these huge pillars
04:36:05 <BeedaWeeda> very finely carved
04:36:25 <BeedaWeeda> very complex structures
04:36:47 <BeedaWeeda> they say the cavemen did this all on their own with some rope and logs
04:37:13 <BeedaWeeda> i held my head down in shame, i cant believe anyone could believe
04:37:33 <pikhq> More plausibly, it wasn't "cave men".
04:37:35 <BeedaWeeda> some primitive hunter/gatherer's could build a structure like tha
04:38:11 <pikhq> Such complex structures require, at a minimum, agriculture. Such that you can have people dedicated to such inessential crafts.
04:39:18 <BeedaWeeda> i think civilization goes back much further than is commonly believed in the scientific community
04:39:53 <pikhq> What makes you think that?
04:40:18 <pikhq> What's commonly believed in the scientific community is based upon evidence.
04:40:42 <BeedaWeeda> yes
04:40:55 <BeedaWeeda> but unfortunately in a lot of cases, that notion becomes dogma
04:42:40 <BeedaWeeda> is this an occult chatroom?
04:43:11 <pikhq> For instance, the origin of civilization is believed to be somewhere about 9500 BCE, because this is the approximate age of the oldest found sedentary, agricultural culture.
04:43:32 <pikhq> If we find an older such culture, then we can push the founding of civilization further back.
04:44:08 <pikhq> No, this is not an occult chatroom.
04:44:13 <coppro> "I don't put scientists on my committees. Give them more data and they'll just change their minds."
04:46:07 <quintopia> zzo38: where are you?
04:46:18 <quintopia> zzo38: i invoke your mystical power!
04:48:08 <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
04:48:17 <zzo38> What kind of mystical power are you trying to invoke?
04:48:39 <oerjan> whatever it was, i think it was successful
04:48:40 <quintopia> zzo38: BeedaWeeda is interested in Magic
04:49:28 <pikhq> quintopia: :D
04:49:30 <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
04:52:24 <quintopia> `addquote <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
04:52:25 <HackEgo> 475) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
04:52:50 <oerjan> i am not sure that works very well without context
04:52:56 <quintopia> anyone who sees that in the future will think it is two quotes
04:53:06 <quintopia> but that is the format that has been accepted
04:53:12 <quintopia> add context if you like
04:53:50 <oerjan> and then they will try to correct the spacing, and we must undo it
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04:54:56 <quintopia> well you can delete it if you like too
04:55:02 <quintopia> but know that i also received the mystery
04:56:16 <BeedaWeeda> you mean magick
04:56:45 <BeedaWeeda> its interesting yea, but i wouldnt dedicate the time necessary to learn it
04:56:50 <zzo38> We very often have quotations without proper context so don't worry about it too much
04:56:53 <oerjan> with zzo38, it's mostly Magic
04:57:36 <oerjan> yeah but elliott has been known to delete them
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05:13:21 <zzo38> Let's play pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1
05:16:43 <zzo38> Can you do it?
05:20:29 <coppro> what is the goal?
05:21:42 <zzo38> coppro: Goal is win.
05:22:01 <zzo38> (Obviously)
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05:22:47 <coppro> in one turn
05:22:49 <coppro> ?
05:22:50 <zzo38> Reload the file if necessary; I have clarified a bit
05:22:58 <oerjan> how would one make a game in which the goal was to lose, anyway
05:23:01 <coppro> ok
05:23:05 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, in one turn.
05:23:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Some chess puzzles might do that possibly (lose without resigning)
05:23:39 <zzo38> (I think in chess they are called "reflex mate")
05:25:19 <zzo38> coppro: Note that if you fail to win this turn, you will lose due to running out of cards!!
05:25:36 <coppro> zzo38: not if you restock your deck with garbage run
05:25:40 <coppro> zzo38: is it something other than gust of wind the porygon, move the damage from the hypno on to it, and then attack it?
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05:26:50 <zzo38> coppro: Yes. Doing that will knock out only one opponent's pokemon and you need to knock out 2 opponent's pokemons to win. Note opponent can knock you out in one turn you lose.
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05:27:30 <zzo38> You can restock your deck but it won't help much (opponent will probably knock you out; they have some cards you cannot see)
05:29:28 <zzo38> One hint: At the end of the game your hand will contain only the 2 cards you picked up from knocking out 2 of opponent's pokemons (what the cards are is irrelevant)
05:30:25 <coppro> oh right I forgot how prizes work
05:32:35 <zzo38> If you win, you make up a puzzle game of pokemon cards next.
05:32:51 <zzo38> (Actually you don't have to make up one if you don't want to)
05:34:44 <zzo38> Also, you cannot use CURSE to move damage from your own cards to opponent's cards. You can only move damage from one of opponent's card to another.
05:34:47 * pikhq has discovered a build system infinitely superior to Make.
05:34:52 <pikhq> I call it "/bin/sh".
05:35:10 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is what I use for my own programs.
05:36:27 <coppro> zzo38: can you please include pokemon's types somewhere?
05:36:32 <coppro> *pokemons'
05:36:56 <zzo38> coppro: They are included. That is what the "E:" means.
05:37:52 <coppro> zzo38: oh ok
05:38:03 <pikhq> time sh -c './configure && make'; 2.807 seconds.
05:38:06 <zzo38> (It is short for "Energy type")
05:38:14 <pikhq> time ./build.sh; 0.275 seconds.
05:38:30 <pikhq> Heck time make; 0.349 seconds
05:38:33 <coppro> zzo38: so why does "use power to move damage from hypno to porygon, retreat to hypno, gust of wind mr mime, attack and deal the extra damage to porygon" not work?
05:38:52 <pikhq> (okay, okay, so time make -j3;0.180 seconds)
05:38:54 <pikhq> coppro: XD
05:40:24 <pikhq> If we decide to permit use of GNU parallel:
05:40:44 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, it doesn't work. For one thing, you cannot use CURSE to move damage from your cards to opponent's cards.
05:41:32 <pikhq> ... 0.406 seconds.
05:41:39 <zzo38> Actually I found an error in my text which I have now corrected. Opponent should have *two* of MR. MIME cards.
05:41:40 <pikhq> GNU parallel is slower than I'd like.
05:43:29 <coppro> zzo38: I mean from my opponent's hypno... oh
05:43:41 <coppro> oh wait, the damage is on the dark muk
05:43:42 <zzo38> Opponent has no HYPNO.
05:43:43 <coppro> I meant the dark muk
05:43:52 <zzo38> Yes, DARK MUK, that makes sense.
05:44:11 <zzo38> Still, I have correct it and now opponent has two MR. MIME cards, so what you say won't work.
05:44:35 <coppro> then I would use gengar's power, use gust of wind, use itemfinder to get back goop, play goop, and then retreat and attack
05:45:00 <zzo38> coppro: Note that ITEMFINDER requires two other cards in your hand in order to do so.
05:46:34 <coppro> zzo38: does it?
05:46:38 <coppro> it doesn't say that it does
05:46:58 <zzo38> Another typo, thanks I will correct it.
05:47:23 <coppro> ah ok
05:49:43 <coppro> aha!
05:50:09 <coppro> I'm not sure what the garbage run and bill are for
05:50:39 <zzo38> Some of the cards that do not say "irrelevant" can still be irrelevant.
05:50:44 <coppro> oh ok
05:51:08 <coppro> but I would go with: use my power to put the damage on porygon. gust of wind so that dark muk is active. retreat the gengar to the spearow; retreat the spearow to the hypno paying the two recycle energies, getting them in hand
05:51:28 <coppro> itemfinder discarding them to get back the goop gas attack, use it, attack dealing 6 damage to dark muk and 1 to porygon, giving two kos
05:51:40 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, good! That is correct.
05:52:43 <coppro> I, sadly, am not very good at puzzle composition
05:52:52 <coppro> much less with Pokemon cards, which I haven't played with in a long time
05:53:19 <coppro> also when you say old-style rules, what has changed?
05:53:35 <zzo38> coppro: I don't know what has changed actually, sorry.
05:54:55 <coppro> ok
05:55:13 <coppro> I was not under the impression that there were any major rules changes
05:56:56 <zzo38> Yes, this puzzle is in one such case where opponent's cards can be helpful to you!!
05:57:31 <coppro> Yes, that's quite often the case
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06:00:26 <coppro> at least in Magic
06:01:37 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, in Magic: the Gathering such things are more common.
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06:32:44 <zzo38> VanillaIsotope: What is that picture for?
06:32:57 <VanillaIsotope> to show you guys how i feel
06:33:06 <VanillaIsotope> ;)
06:33:18 <zzo38> OK
06:33:27 <VanillaIsotope> Well, especially after every chakra is opened
06:33:32 <VanillaIsotope> thats how I feel
06:33:45 <VanillaIsotope> Especially after doing the breath of fire
06:34:00 <VanillaIsotope> ;)
06:34:44 <coppro> wonky
06:35:08 <VanillaIsotope> pranyama is good for you :D
06:40:53 <VanillaIsotope> http://psychedelic-information-theory.com/
06:42:27 <VanillaIsotope> http://psychedelic-information-theory.com/toc.php
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07:02:37 <pikhq> Y'know, the miracles of Jesus really do reflect the time that the gospels were written in.
07:02:46 <pikhq> I mean, curing blindness and leprosy?
07:02:54 <pikhq> Sure, that may have been impressive back then.
07:03:33 <pikhq> But we can replace human vision, and leprosy is a probable target for extinction in the next, oh, 50 years.
07:04:15 <pikhq> It's all a bunch of things that a bunch of 0 CE Jews would've thought impressive.
07:04:39 <pikhq> Most of which a well-prepared time traveller could have pulled off.
07:05:07 <zzo38> Yes, they would call it impressive. Time traveller might be able to do it except that probably time travel cannot be done that way anyways.
07:05:09 <Lymee> Jesus as a time traveler?
07:05:11 <Lymee> Win.
07:05:30 <zzo38> I do not believe time travel can be done that way.
07:05:35 <Lymee> Starting Christianity?
07:05:36 <Lymee> Not so much.
07:06:00 <pikhq> We can even improve the amount of miracles doable if we allow for clever tricks to make it *appear* that the miracle happened, rather than actually doing it.
07:06:47 <pikhq> Not going to be able to handle the "rose from the dead" thing without a suicidal double, though.
07:07:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes you can figure out such kind of clever tricks, possibly, maybe. It might work. But I doubt the time travel idea will work.
07:08:45 <pikhq> zzo38: I am not proposing this as something someone should/could do.
07:08:53 <pikhq> Just as something to think about.
07:09:09 <pikhq> Ones thoughts need not actually be possible. ;)
07:09:15 <pikhq> s/Ones/One's/
07:09:17 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is at least something to think about.
07:10:32 <Lymee> pikhq, "rise from the dead?"
07:10:46 <Lymee> Depends on the level of technology.
07:10:55 <Lymee> If you have, say, brain transfers?
07:11:06 <pikhq> Ah, true. I was merely discussing present technology.
07:11:22 <Lymee> Hmm....
07:11:25 <pikhq> If we allow for future but plausible technology, then bam.
07:11:48 <pikhq> The gospels could then be interpreted as a time traveller playing god.
07:12:16 <Lymee> If Jesus was a time traveler, wouldn't the Bible already exist in their time?
07:12:19 <Lymee> Or something.
07:12:23 <Lymee> Gah time travel.
07:15:23 <zzo38> I doubt time travel can work that way. The laws of physics are not to be broken (it is OK to be bent slightly, though). The Old Testament probably already exist in their time, not the New Testament. But even if it is the case they wouldn't have necessarily brought it back in time with them!
07:16:11 <coppro> obligatory: wibbly wobbly
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07:47:18 <zzo38> repo.or.cz seems some problem I cannot edit the project settings.
07:47:59 <pikhq> The image is not doctored.
07:48:17 <pikhq> The person, obviously, is.
07:50:57 <coppro> O_O
07:51:12 <coppro> that is disturbing
07:51:49 <pikhq> Would it make you feel better to realise that it's a combination of heavy makeup, contacts, and bizarre camera angles on someone with slightly odd proportions?
07:52:09 <coppro> yes
07:52:35 <coppro> it's still disturbing
07:52:57 <pikhq> Well, yes, it is in the uncanny valley.
07:53:16 <coppro> I do feel better than there is no plsatic surgery involved
07:53:54 <coppro> that was my first reaction
08:05:38 <zzo38> I tried to make the Redmine tracking system for TeXnicard, so that now you can post issue report, document, wiki, forum, etc. There are some things isn't very good but at least it can work. However I might have done some things wrong too. https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard
08:07:06 <zzo38> Maybe I did it wrong I don't know
08:08:20 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I did when I saw the picture, must think it must be some combination of makeup, contacts, camera angle, odd proportions, etc
08:08:45 <pikhq> Still fucking creepy.
08:09:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Is that what you think?
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08:16:08 <coppro> zzo38 thinks differently, not that it is a bad thing. It's actually quite interesting to watch zzo38 think.
08:16:38 <pikhq> zzo38: It's "uncanny valley" kind of creepiness.
08:17:05 <pikhq> Nothing *inherent*, just the picture triggering my brain into going "WTF THATS NOT RIGHT".
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08:23:44 <VanillaIsotope> do u guys like my jewfro
08:44:39 <Lymee> pikhq, it has not fallen that low yet.
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09:18:10 <zzo38> Make a pokemon card puzzle involving the "IMAKUNI?" card.
09:18:34 <coppro> imakuni?
09:19:35 <zzo38> Your active pokemon is now confused. Imakuni? wants you to play him as a basic pokemon but you can't. A strange creature not listed in the pokedex, he asks people "Who is cuter, Pikachu or me?"
09:20:32 <coppro> what
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09:21:04 <zzo38> I have no link sorry
09:22:34 <zzo38> This card is only in Japan and in Pokemon Card Gameboy
09:23:33 <coppro> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Imakuni%3F_(CoroCoro_promo)
09:23:51 <zzo38> It is, as far as I know, the only trainer card in the game that Pokemon Card Gameboy lets you play even if it would have no effect (where discarding cards from your hand does not count as an "effect" but shuffling your deck does count)
09:26:28 <coppro> huh
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09:47:19 <zzo38> In addition to IMAKUNI? card, I would like to see RAINBOW ENERGY used in some pokemon card puzzle.
09:49:55 <zzo38> RAINBOW ENERGY: Can be used as any kind of energy but causes 1 point of damage to the card it is attached to when you play this energy card to attach.
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10:00:23 <zzo38> Make some puzzle involving knock out all six of opponent's pokemons and five of your own, all on the same turn. Is it possible somehow?
10:02:30 <zzo38> Make one where the game lasts multiple turns (maybe you have seen the opponent's cards already somehow)
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11:35:34 <Vorpal> aiee, grub has a different device map when booting and when running grub-install
11:35:35 <Vorpal> gah
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11:56:37 <Vorpal> the hell /dev/md1 got renamed to /dev/md126 somehow
11:56:41 <Vorpal> hell,*
12:10:54 <CakeProphet> how do I convert hex to byte value in Haskell?
12:16:20 <Deewiant> > read "0xff" :: Int
12:16:20 <lambdabot> 255
12:16:49 <CakeProphet> oh.. :)
12:20:38 <lambdabot> [(255,"")]
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13:03:48 <CakeProphet> it would be cool if we used hex instead of decimal.
13:04:14 <CakeProphet> > 16 ** 3
13:04:15 <lambdabot> 4096.0
13:04:32 <CakeProphet> > map (16 **) [1..]
13:04:33 <lambdabot> [16.0,256.0,4096.0,65536.0,1048576.0,1.6777216e7,2.68435456e8,4.294967296e9...
13:04:40 <CakeProphet> > map (16 ^) [1..]
13:04:41 <lambdabot> [16,256,4096,65536,1048576,16777216,268435456,4294967296,68719476736,109951...
13:04:58 <CakeProphet> we could rarely need more than 5 digits to really talk about most things.
13:07:56 <CakeProphet> same with scientific communication if you employ scientific notation. Though I guess the same could be said about decimal, since then the only thing that matters is your precision.
13:08:07 <Deewiant> > iterate (*16) 1
13:08:07 <lambdabot> [1,16,256,4096,65536,1048576,16777216,268435456,4294967296,68719476736,1099...
13:10:13 <CakeProphet> not really very different in elegance. I guess it's more efficient.
13:12:47 <Deewiant> Aye, but I think it's less more efficient than I first thought
13:13:38 <Deewiant> I think both do a number of multiplications that's linear in the length of the list
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13:19:15 <CakeProphet> @pl fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
13:19:15 <lambdabot> fibs = fix ((0 :) . (1 :) . ap (zipWith (+)) tail)
13:19:29 <CakeProphet> how... beautiful?
13:20:17 <CakeProphet> I guess that actually is a nice definition.
13:21:07 <CakeProphet> oh okay, now I see how ap makes sense...
13:21:09 <CakeProphet> :t ap
13:21:09 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
13:21:22 <CakeProphet> for functions, anyways.
13:21:24 <Deewiant> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
13:21:26 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
13:22:37 <CakeProphet> @pl (n:) . ap (zipWith f) tail
13:22:37 <lambdabot> (n :) . ap (zipWith f) tail
13:22:46 <CakeProphet> @pl scanl f n = (n:) . ap (zipWith f) tail
13:22:46 <lambdabot> scanl = flip ((.) . (:)) . (`ap` tail) . zipWith
13:22:59 <CakeProphet> ...right?
13:24:18 <Deewiant> @check \n xs -> scanl (+) n xs == ((n:) . ap (zipWith (+)) tail) xs
13:24:18 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n-3\n[3,0,-3]\n"
13:24:58 <CakeProphet> oh. I just took what you replaced with scanl (+) 1
13:25:04 <CakeProphet> and assumed they were equivalent.
13:25:16 <Deewiant> They're not :-)
13:27:28 <CakeProphet> @check \xs -> scanl (+) 1 xs == ((1:) . ap (zipWith (+)) tail) xs
13:27:29 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n[-1,-2]\n"
13:30:12 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in take 10 fibs
13:30:13 <lambdabot> [-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13]
13:30:22 <CakeProphet> I went one step back. :)
13:31:00 <Deewiant> > take 10 \$ fix ((-1:) . scanl (+) 1)
13:31:02 <lambdabot> [-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13]
13:31:45 <CakeProphet> but really you could do that with any n and -n pair so... it's not really unique or anything.
13:32:26 <CakeProphet> I don't really know if you could coherently go "backwards" from 0 in the fibonacci sequence.
13:32:40 <CakeProphet> -s
13:33:08 <Deewiant> > take 10 \$ fix ((-1:) . scanl (+) 0)
13:33:10 <lambdabot> [-1,0,-1,-1,-2,-3,-5,-8,-13,-21]
13:33:25 <Deewiant> > take 10 \$ fix ((0:) . scanl (+) (-1))
13:33:27 <lambdabot> [0,-1,-1,-2,-3,-5,-8,-13,-21,-34]
13:33:36 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 2 : -1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in take 10 fibs
13:33:37 <lambdabot> [2,-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8]
13:33:52 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -3 : 2 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in take 10 fibs
13:33:53 <lambdabot> [-3,2,-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5]
13:34:36 <CakeProphet> well you you can just alternate sign as you count up in absolute value.
13:35:05 <CakeProphet> er wait
13:35:26 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 5 : -3 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in take 10 fibs
13:35:27 <lambdabot> [5,-3,2,-1,1,0,1,1,2,3]
13:36:18 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -8 : 5 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
13:36:19 <lambdabot> [-8,5,-3,2,-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,...
13:37:14 <CakeProphet> so it's actually just the original fibonacci sequence but in reverse and with alternating signs.
13:37:54 <CakeProphet> -gasp- amazing.
13:40:10 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 55 : -34 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
13:40:10 <lambdabot> [55,-34,21,-13,8,-5,3,-2,1,-1,0,-1,-1,-2,-3,-5,-8,-13,-21,-34,-55,-89,-144,...
13:40:26 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -55 : 34 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
13:40:26 <lambdabot> [-55,34,-21,13,-8,5,-3,2,-1,1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,...
13:41:55 <CakeProphet> alternating the sign correctly is important. Otherwise you'll end up with the negative Fibonacci sequence. He's a real curmudgeon.
13:44:53 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -55 : 34 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in foldl1 (+) \$ take 21 fibs
13:44:53 <lambdabot> 110
13:46:41 <CakeProphet> sum of the odd elements..
13:46:52 <CakeProphet> from the first 11 numbers.
13:47:03 <CakeProphet> er, 10
13:47:25 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = -55 : 34 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in foldl1 (+) \$ take 20 fibs
13:47:26 <lambdabot> 55
13:48:06 <CakeProphet> heh
13:49:13 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 89 -55 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in foldl1 (+) \$ take 23 fibs
13:49:17 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
13:49:40 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 89 : -55 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in foldl1 (+) \$ take 23 fibs
13:49:41 <lambdabot> 288
13:49:48 <CakeProphet> > let fibs = 89 : -55 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in foldl1 (+) \$ take 22 fibs
13:49:49 <lambdabot> 199
13:49:57 <CakeProphet> yeah, just a coincidence...
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13:53:14 <CakeProphet> iterate (putChar 'y' >>) \$ return ()
13:53:56 <CakeProphet> or you know, just forever (putChar 'y') or something
13:54:53 <CakeProphet> or fix (putChar 'y' >>) I believe would work.
13:57:05 <Gregorrrrr> Blap
13:57:49 <CakeProphet> so many ways to affirm.
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15:40:56 <zzo38> Probably the reason my repo.or.cz password stopped working is someone reset it.
15:46:05 <zzo38> Now I reset it by myself too and now it works.
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16:15:51 <zzo38> Did I put enough issue categories in here? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/issues/report
16:16:23 <zzo38> Is there any one I forgot?
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16:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Pictured: perspective.
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16:36:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the pistons in mc 1.7 are cool btw
16:36:49 <Vorpal> in case you didn't notice, it is out
16:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so yeah, pistons are cool, but I can't really think of an original use offhand.
16:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Holy crap Painterly is updated already.
16:52:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And MC.net is down. As ever.
16:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, Vorpal, can I have your bin directory?
17:08:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't updated yet, I'm running thermal stress test on my new computer
17:08:12 <Vorpal> if you want 1.6 I can give it however
17:08:50 <Vorpal> and wow, this GPU fan is quiet
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19:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
19:31:10 <oerjan> evening
19:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover, actually.
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19:40:22 <oerjan> <Deewiant> I think both do a number of multiplications that's linear in the length of the list
19:40:45 <oerjan> surely the map (16^) and map (16**) duplicate work more...
19:41:21 <Deewiant> ** does, but ^ is specialized for integers so it should be able to do a logarithmic number of multiplications
19:41:33 <Deewiant> It's still more work but I think it's asymptotically the same
19:41:40 <oerjan> not just integers, Integrals
19:41:50 <oerjan> hm maybe
19:41:54 <Deewiant> That is to say, integers :-P
19:42:11 <oerjan> and non-negative ones at that
19:43:11 <oerjan> well O(n log n) i guess, which is still somewhat more than O(n).
19:43:17 <oerjan> or wait
19:43:27 <oerjan> hm...
19:43:38 <oerjan> log 1 + log 2 + ... + log n
19:43:51 <oerjan> hm that's log (n!)
19:44:55 <oerjan> mind you this is still ignoring the exact complexity of each multiplication
19:45:03 <Deewiant> True that
19:47:22 <oerjan> stirling's approximation: ln n! = n ln n - n + O(ln(n))
19:47:34 <oerjan> so O(log (n!)) = O(n log n)
20:05:47 <evening> Quick, someone tell me if Clojure is A Bad Thing.
20:06:06 <evening> Logreading elliott: YES I KNOW SHUT UP OK
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20:18:45 <oerjan> jew jould alwaje look for clojure in evjything
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20:20:25 <oerjan> c'est boily!
20:31:43 <boily> oui, c'est moi.
20:35:45 <quintopia> boily!
20:36:03 <quintopia> how lovely to meet you!
20:36:09 * quintopia shakes hand
20:38:20 * boily shakes back
20:39:21 <boily> sorry, but I'm going to disappear for the weekend for a long paint-job.
20:39:28 <boily> back by monday, I guess!
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21:23:06 <elliott> oh that google+ thing came out
21:23:06 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:27:05 <quintopia> yeah i should check if my invite is valid yet
21:29:08 <elliott> who cares
21:30:17 <quintopia> does anyone know if it's possible to make it so i don't get emailed about replies to my comments on a particular youtube video?
21:30:35 <quintopia> people keep replying even though i posted it a month ago and haven't said a thing since
21:30:46 <elliott> reply saying everyone is a faggot
21:30:55 <Gregor> Literally everyone.
21:30:58 <Gregor> Every last human being.
21:31:02 <Gregor> Human race: Doomed.
21:31:44 <oerjan> Gregor: nah there's still artificial insemination
21:31:48 <Gregor> True
21:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, not enough, I'm afraid.
21:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> The slightest spark and we're all alight.
21:32:39 <oerjan> oh dear
21:32:47 <oerjan> yeah that could be awkward
21:33:03 <quintopia> Gregor: i just invented human parthenogenesis. we can be gay and still live on!
21:33:36 <oerjan> except for very sparsely populated countries, maybe
21:33:51 <oerjan> india would go down in flames
21:34:32 <oerjan> norway will greatly regret our insistence on building houses out of wood
21:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> people keep replying even though i posted it a month ago and haven't said a thing since
21:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> What'd you post?
21:35:29 <elliott> comex: go make gmail think that you send your messages
21:35:34 <elliott> maybe by removing the .s :P
21:35:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait did you just invent us catching fire rapidly for no reason or is there a link I'm missing.
21:36:13 <oerjan> elliott: no you did. pay attention.
21:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, faggot as in bundle of wood.
21:36:22 <elliott> Oh.
21:36:41 <elliott> I liked it better when it was just "gays are really flammable for no reason at all".
21:37:16 <oerjan> i think the term is "flamboyant"
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21:38:12 <oerjan> augur ran away before we remembered asking him to confirm
21:42:15 <quintopia> oh i figured out the problem
21:42:25 <quintopia> somehow people upvoted my comment to second place
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21:42:40 <quintopia> so it never dies!
21:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Which video?
21:44:58 * Phantom_Hoover boggles again at the sheer stupidity that is MathML.
21:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, eeeeewww, you subscribed to Vihart.
21:49:42 <quintopia> yes.
21:49:47 <quintopia> she's pretty cute
21:50:02 <quintopia> and i have some interest in techniques of math education
21:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, protip: good techniques don't think tau is an important thing.
21:51:54 <quintopia> that is a matter of hotly contested opinion
21:52:07 <quintopia> and i distrust your expertise in the matter
21:52:19 <quintopia> (also, i was into vihart long before tau got popular)
21:52:30 <elliott> hotly contested opinion lol
21:52:37 <elliott> maybe among people who don't actually do any mathematics
21:53:34 <quintopia> among math educators. people who actually do mathematics couldn't give a rat's ass
21:54:30 <elliott> ok show me someone who actually teaches mathematics who gives a rat's ass, also, someone who's level of education actually involves teaching people pi
21:54:38 <elliott> as opposed to like a preschool teacher
21:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, protip 2: if you're teaching maths properly, i.e. to people who would benefit from it, tau vs. pi is irrelevant.
21:55:43 <quintopia> "peole who would benefit from it" is everyone
21:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, I'm not so deluded as to think everyone's time is worth learning calculus.
21:56:41 <quintopia> obviously
21:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, it's good to build up your reasoning skills; but tau vs. pi is irrelevant to that.
21:56:56 <quintopia> calculus is not even a field of math
21:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, ...what.
21:57:09 <quintopia> it's a set of tools required by ... engineers mostly
21:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Shut up this very minute.
21:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Shut. Up. Now.
21:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> There is nothing you can say now that will salvage this.
21:57:41 <quintopia> there are fields of math that require calculus, but calculus would not be called calculus if it weren't meant to be just that: a set of tools
21:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You are now firmly marked down as An Idiot in my mind.
21:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I told you to shut up.
21:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> You're just digging yourself deeper.
21:58:13 <quintopia> you're pretty annoying, you know that?
21:58:26 <oerjan> quintopia: if you exclude calculus from math, then you have also excluded every level of "math" at which tau vs. pi could conceivably matter.
21:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, I don't suffer fools gladly, if that's what you mean.
21:59:04 <quintopia> oerjan: it doesn't really matter to me.
21:59:35 <quintopia> i think tau is slightly more elegant in the grand scheme of things, but i have no data as to its pedagogical value
21:59:42 <elliott> <quintopia> calculus is not even a field of math
21:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If you hadn't just said calculus isn't a field of maths, I wouldn't be doing this.
21:59:46 <elliott> <quintopia> it's a set of tools required by ... engineers mostly
21:59:48 <elliott> is oerjan still here
21:59:53 <elliott> is he available for laughing purposes
21:59:56 <elliott> i cant do it all by myself
22:00:10 * oerjan throws a pie in elliott's face
22:00:12 <elliott> <quintopia> there are fields of math that require calculus, but calculus would not be called calculus if it weren't meant to be just that: a set of tools
22:00:23 <elliott> hurr calculus is a bunch of integration rules not a set of formal definitions hurrrrr
22:00:39 <elliott> hurr it's actually really hard to act this stupid i'm going to have to stop
22:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's very, very hard to laugh at thiss.
22:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *this
22:00:58 <quintopia> i think we're pretty much at the poin that there is no way to make myself understood. there is no reason for me to try.
22:01:43 <elliott> oh, right
22:01:45 <elliott> quintopia: i have an imagination
22:03:50 <quintopia> alright, if you must have it to prove me wrong...what is the latest groundbreaking theorem in the field of calculus?
22:04:10 <elliott> OK, so something has to be a full field to be mathematics?
22:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot even *believe* you just said that.
22:04:22 <elliott> OK, so if a certain branch of mathematics ends up being mostly solved somehow, it is no longer part of mathematics?
22:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Is geometry not a field of mathematics?
22:04:24 <oerjan> it is not entirely unreasonable to consider calculus to be the mindless part of the field of math otherwise called analysis
22:04:38 <elliott> Of course calculus is analysis? :P
22:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, sure, but it was certainly cutting-edge mathematics when it was developed, and it's still mathematics regardless of the fact that it's been superseded by more developed fields.
22:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the same with geometry.
22:05:51 <quintopia> oerjan's point is my point exactly
22:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing new comes out of it because it advanced to the point that the new stuff got different names.
22:06:10 <quintopia> newton called it "the calculus"
22:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, OK, run by me why, exactly, calculus is not a field of mathematics.
22:07:15 <quintopia> from the dictionary: "a method of calculation"
22:07:47 <elliott> Newton: literally God.
22:07:51 <elliott> Dictionary: literally God.
22:07:58 <elliott> Newton + dictionary: you have now won the argument.
22:08:02 <elliott> I bow before thee.
22:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, I really don't see how you can't view it as mathematics.
22:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What else can it *be*?
22:08:17 <quintopia> it is mathematics
22:08:29 <quintopia> addition and subtraction is mathematics too
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22:08:41 <oerjan> didn't he add some "of ..." to the phrase for distinction? the latin word "calculus" would include plain arithmetic...
22:08:59 <quintopia> oerjan: "calculus of integration" etc. yes.
22:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the Latin word calculus just means 'pebble', doesn't it?
22:09:15 <oerjan> well true
22:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, wait, you're basing this on pedantry of the very hazily-defined word 'field'?
22:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Which seems to mean, in your mind, an area of mathematics in which active research is being pursued?
22:10:00 <quintopia> of course. i consider a field to be a branch of the science/art where research takes place.
22:10:08 <elliott> you said that "calculus wasn't mathematics"
22:10:13 <elliott> you must defend this statement, not any other
22:10:15 <quintopia> things you can get a doctoral degree in
22:10:24 <elliott> so addition is not mathematics?
22:10:25 <elliott> it is just a tool
22:10:28 <elliott> you can't get a doctorate in addition
22:10:52 <quintopia> it is a tool of mathematics, but boasts nothing of the art
22:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, ...what?
22:11:04 <oerjan> elliott: now division on the other hand...
22:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Calculus boasts the art of mathematics in *spades*.
22:11:26 <elliott> this is stupid and you're stupid
22:11:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Its history alone is a perfect illustration of the reasons for rigour.
22:12:18 <quintopia> it is not a field. this is what i said, and this is what i mean. it is useful in a couple of fields, but it is not (although it might once have been) a field unto itself
22:12:25 <oerjan> stupid est et stupidi estis
22:12:33 <oerjan> *stupidum
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22:20:16 <pikhq> oerjan: stultum est et stulti estis?
22:22:06 <oerjan> they're both latin words...
22:23:47 <elliott> You're a stult.
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22:30:54 <nooga> help
22:32:25 <elliott> ok
22:34:55 <nooga> i've got 16 girls in my apartament and they can drink more than me
22:35:16 <nooga> my gf invited them
22:35:46 <quintopia> really. 16 people can drink more than one?
22:35:50 <nooga> what should i do
22:35:56 <nooga> i mean
22:36:05 <nooga> every single one can
22:36:19 <quintopia> i think you best hide the alcohol
22:37:08 <oerjan> maybe they're secretly refilling your drink while you're not watching
22:37:36 <oerjan> being 16, should not be hard
22:41:30 <nooga> we drink shots man
22:41:37 <nooga> this is Poland
22:41:38 <nooga> ;p
22:42:39 <oerjan> maybe they're secretly watering out their _own_ shots
22:45:53 <nooga> beh
22:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, cut a hole in your chin.
22:48:15 <oerjan> ah the classical reverse trolling
22:49:43 <elliott> nooga: turn into an architecte
22:49:44 <elliott> nooga: turn into an architect
22:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god SMBC Theatre is going to make a space opera.
22:53:03 <elliott> Will it be a space rock opera.
22:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt it, which is sad.
22:54:46 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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22:58:21 <elliott> How do HTTPS query strings work?
22:58:26 <elliott> Hmm.
22:58:31 <elliott> Wait, the path is sent encrypted, right?
22:58:35 <elliott> So HTTPS query strings aren't sent in plaintext.
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23:31:08 <pikhq> So, I've found a usage where redo fucking makes sense.
23:31:09 <nooga> ah
23:31:20 <nooga> atom heart mother
23:32:51 <nooga> 1364 seconds of joy
23:36:57 <pikhq> Distroing.
23:37:16 <pikhq> It makes sense because all you really want in your build setup is a shell script that happens to handle dependencies.
23:37:22 <pikhq> And redo offers just that.
23:37:51 <elliott> so does tup
23:37:57 <elliott> also everything that can run a shell script
23:38:15 <pikhq> elliott: tup fails pretty horribly at this, actually.
23:38:48 <elliott> why
23:39:17 <pikhq> Doesn't much like things like "directories".
23:39:34 <pikhq> You can't have a Tupfile build a file in a seperate directory from what it's in.
23:40:07 <pikhq> Nor can you easily have a Tupfile untar, cd, ./configure&&make&&make install.
23:41:50 <pikhq> And make handles the case pretty poorly, because in order to do even slightly more complex package builds, I pretty much need to have it call into a seperate shell script.
23:42:08 <pikhq> And having dependency info seperate from the actual rules to make it is a pain.
23:47:03 <elliott> fair enough
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23:55:04 <oerjan> nough, made by fairies
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