00:07:44 <oerjan> "Nough (Persian: نوق) is a small village in Rafsanjan, south of Iran in the province of Kerman."
00:37:06 <oerjan> assuming those 16 girls mentioned above actually exist
00:38:44 <oerjan> ...are we _sure_ of that?
00:38:56 <elliott> well nobody could be good enough at rping a shithead to be cheater
00:39:03 <elliott> and cheater could never be anyone who isn't a shithead
00:39:14 <elliott> nooga: if you're cheater, you're an excellent actor, put this talent to good use
00:41:04 <oerjan> also, who is to say nooga actually wrote that. there are 17 (18?) possible suspects...
00:42:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:43:11 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=723&bih=717&q=women%20in%20poland&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3049l4153l0l15l6l0l0l0l0l176l176l0.1l1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
00:44:55 <NihilistDandy> Lemma: All women from Poland are stock photo models.
00:45:30 <oerjan> i've seen putative polish women. admittedly they were in norway, not poland. maybe they've all left.
00:45:47 <NihilistDandy> Well, with men like 'nooga' around, it's hardly a wonder
00:47:29 <zzo38> Why does using the -m option of the "setfont" program in Linux also set the keyboard input map? Even though I am trying to set output only map.
00:48:35 <elliott> This supposed ... ``nooga''
00:48:38 -!- tclifton has joined.
00:48:47 <elliott> oh tclifton looks new, should we lynch him now or later or...
00:49:23 <quintopia> how long i gotta stay in this tree?
00:49:28 <zzo38> dd if=/dev/mem bs=1 count=2048 skip=`dd if=/dev/mem bs=1 count=4 skip=268 | od -t u1 | awk 'NR==1{print $5*0x1000+$4*0x10+$3*0x100+$2*0x1}'` of=rom8x8font
00:49:42 <NihilistDandy> Are you decrementing me, commenting me, or attributing that to me? :D
00:49:49 <zzo38> setfont -v rom8x8font # This part also works
00:50:00 <zzo38> seq 0 127 | awk '{print ($0+128) " " $0}' > G1consolemap # And this one
00:50:08 <zzo38> grep '^[0-9]' < $0 >> G1consolemap # And also this one
00:50:52 <zzo38> setfont -u /dev/null -m G1consolemap; kbd_mode -a; echo -e '\e%@\e(U\e)K' # This seems to set the keyboard map too even though I am trying to set output map only!
00:51:04 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why?
00:51:10 -!- tclifton has left.
00:52:29 <zzo38> So, pushing some of the keys causes it to input the wrong characters (but it works if using the number pad or using ALT+numbers)
00:52:50 <elliott> <NihilistDandy> Are you decrementing me, commenting me, or attributing that to me? :D
00:52:57 <elliott> you totally said "* tclifton (~tclifton@212.101.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) has joined #esoteric"
00:59:00 -!- tibuda has joined.
00:59:09 <nooga> NihilistDandy is a nolife
00:59:21 -!- nooga has left.
00:59:25 -!- nooga has joined.
00:59:28 <monqy> bye nooga hi nooga
00:59:36 <nooga> pg dn does not work
00:59:43 -!- tibuda has left.
01:01:51 <elliott> NihilistDandy: you're a nolife
01:09:23 <NihilistDandy> Of course. I thirst for attention, and tiny validation I get everytime someone highlights me is the only thing that keeps me going in the vortex of depression that is my existence.
01:12:57 <zzo38> Do you know why setting the console map does that?
01:13:06 <zzo38> And how to prevent it?
01:14:49 <elliott> lol i read nooga and monqy as the same from "hhhhh"
01:15:14 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I will try.
01:16:34 -!- zzo38 has left.
01:23:14 <oerjan> that's not germanium to the discussion
01:29:18 <oerjan> if he speaks like that he just has to sulphur the consequences.
01:32:47 <oerjan> this is not precisely fluoride prose
01:34:57 <oerjan> CakeProphet: how boron
01:35:26 <nooga> carbon, hydrogen, oxygen
01:36:43 <nooga> goddamn oerjan is the master of puns
01:36:56 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:37:21 -!- elliott has joined.
01:37:28 <nooga> elliott: seen that?
01:38:19 <nooga> 03:35 < oerjan> how iron-nickel
01:38:19 <nooga> 03:36 < nooga> goddamn oerjan is the master of puns
01:38:24 <nooga> 03:36 < oerjan> yeah they're all gold
01:39:00 <oerjan> oh no, where will this lead
01:39:12 <nooga> thank god i understand this games
01:39:54 <oerjan> it's always good to have a silver of understanding
01:42:29 <NihilistDandy> And either cut out your tungsten or feed you to the wolfram
01:43:16 <oerjan> you're making a mercury of this
01:43:35 <nooga> you speak manganese
01:44:40 <nooga> what an antimony...
01:48:09 <coppro> pikhq: as in you do or you want?
01:48:50 <pikhq> There's a single fundamental problem with this: invite only sucks.
01:48:53 <oerjan> i guess the pun war is cesium
01:49:00 -!- nooga has left.
01:49:31 <elliott> pikhq: invite only social network #badideas
01:50:20 <coppro> pikhq: it's still in rollout phase. right now you can invite people by sharing with their email address
01:50:53 <pikhq> Strange, I literally *just* got an invite.
01:51:08 <NihilistDandy> Maybe the situation's changed in the last few hours
01:51:10 <coppro> They're doing rate limiting
01:51:22 <coppro> if you F5 the link your invite has, you'll get a slot
01:52:14 <elliott> pikhq: hey give me an invite i will add nobody
01:53:00 <elliott> i will add you though because
01:54:17 <oerjan> it's because elliott is ugly with his 1 meter wide mouth
01:54:29 <pikhq> elliott: What was your email again?
01:54:44 <oerjan> ostrichofhell@microsoft.com
01:54:55 <elliott> pikhq: penguinofthegods@gmail.com
02:02:04 -!- elliott_ has joined.
02:02:04 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:02:21 <elliott_> pikhq: oh thanks first friend :))))
02:02:28 <elliott_> Google may use my information to personalize content and ads on non-Google web sites.
02:03:49 <elliott_> MAKING MY FIRST COMMENT ZOMG I SPECIAL
02:06:13 <elliott_> Error saving profile. Please enter valid start and end years.
02:06:15 <elliott_> omg it erased all my hard work
02:06:48 <monqy> start and end years what
02:07:01 <elliott_> for al lmy various employments
02:07:06 <elliott_> microsoft,ibm,sun microsystems.....spies....
02:07:24 <monqy> employed in the future
02:07:42 <elliott_> oh my god i can add agora-business
02:07:54 <pikhq> Yeah, the interface seems to show at least some polish.
02:09:06 * elliott_ hopes pikhq realised what he signed up for when he added me... to his CIRCLES...
02:09:19 <elliott_> oh man i am already in other peoples' cirlces
02:09:34 <pikhq> elliott_: The nice thing is, I can partition you off from other people. >:D
02:10:04 * elliott_ wonders: Can you stop people in certain circles from seeing that you have people in other circles? for instance, I can see that pikhq has Steven Wallace in a circle
02:10:17 <elliott_> which is like crossing the streams :( unless steven wallace is some other internet person you added i guess
02:11:08 <pikhq> Steven Wallace is a good friend of mine that I originally know from the Internet.
02:11:24 <elliott_> oh sorry if you didn't want me to say his name i'm tired
02:11:38 <pikhq> He's been in here a couple of times.
02:11:52 <pikhq> (when I was doing Dimensifuck, IIRC)
02:11:52 <elliott_> but yeah, is he in a different circle? because it'd suck if you could see all the terrible people that bug me
02:11:56 <elliott_> (note: above is joke but yeah)
02:12:02 <pikhq> He's in a different circle ATM.
02:12:17 <elliott_> ok, so i can see people in your other circles... that worries me, I wonder how you can stop that
02:12:39 <elliott_> nice, it has data liberation in the settings
02:12:50 <pikhq> It seems to me like the partitioning really need to be a bit... More.
02:13:06 <elliott_> ah, i can hide people in my circles altogether
02:13:26 <pikhq> Imperfect, but workable.
02:14:42 <elliott_> "Bragging rights - Examples: survived high school, have 3 kids, etc."
02:15:29 <oerjan> have 42 kids, most of which survived high school
02:18:27 <elliott_> "Each post has an indicator that summarizes who the post is shared with (Public, Limited, and so on). Click the indicator for details about who the post is shared with. Remember that anyone a post is shared with can see all comments to that post, who else it's shared with, and share the post with others."
02:18:34 <elliott_> it seems like there should be a way to segregate off comments from various circles
02:18:50 <elliott_> (maybe i should just have two accounts with my kind of total internet segregation practices)
02:19:28 <elliott_> how do you edit the sharing of a post...
02:39:38 <elliott_> <pikhq> oh no all my friends will think im frainds with an insane man called elliott
02:52:35 -!- augur has joined.
03:24:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:25:13 <lambdabot> The operator `:' [infixr 5] of a section
03:25:13 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
03:25:28 <elliott_> that's one of my haskell wishes
03:26:06 <CakeProphet> what would you even call it? "better sections"?
03:26:53 <lambdabot> The operator `+' [infixl 6] of a section
03:26:53 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
03:27:15 <elliott_> along with IdiomBrackets and MLModules :)
03:27:53 <elliott_> do you even know what idiombrackets are
03:28:01 * CakeProphet doesn't actually know what idiom brackets are.
03:28:08 <elliott_> read you some conor mcbride, fool
03:31:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:31:23 <monqy> are idiom brackets the things that do (pure f <*> a1 <*> a2 <*> ... <*> an)
03:31:33 <monqy> or do they do more than that
03:32:08 <elliott_> conor mcbride makes me want a twitter
03:32:24 <monqy> is she any good then?
03:32:41 <monqy> all I know about it is it's a haskell preprocessor thing does idiom brackets
03:32:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:33:00 <elliott_> monqy: yes it's great, it also lifts data to constructorless datatypes, emulating datakinds
03:33:19 <elliott_> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/faking.html
03:33:19 <elliott_> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/pi.html
03:33:27 <elliott_> oh and http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/idiom.html
03:33:34 <monqy> I read the idiom one earlier today
03:34:05 <monqy> I hate constructors so I'll probably like this
03:34:11 <elliott_> monqy: the only features apart from that are http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/patsy.html and http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/higpig.html
03:34:16 <elliott_> also is that srs, what's wrong with constructors
03:34:16 <monqy> rather, I hate messes of nested constructors
03:34:40 <monqy> (to form complex structures)
03:34:56 <elliott_> monqy: scrap your boilerplate could help there
03:35:06 <elliott_> by letting you abstract your data traversal to avoid explicit pattern matching
03:35:15 <elliott_> e.g. everywhere lets you just apply a function everywhere in a structure where it's well-typed
03:35:26 <monqy> mm that sounds nice
03:35:32 <elliott_> and ofc you can define your own traversal strategies with the basic tools
03:35:36 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/syb try it
03:35:58 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:36:04 <elliott_> (see also the http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.3.1.0/doc/html/Data-Data.html module from base that it's based upon, dunno why the rest of syb isn't in base)
03:37:02 <monqy> will read eventually
03:37:24 <monqy> my reading list is a bit too big so I'll have to read some stuff soon
03:37:32 <elliott_> just read mcbride tweets first, they'll make you all happy
03:37:42 <monqy> (my reading list is a bunch of open tabs it's really messy)
03:38:28 <elliott_> "A Gentle Introduction to Category Theory" ;; this title sure doesn't bode well
03:38:37 <elliott_> "Heh, heh... yes, it is rather brutal, but unfortunately it is the easiest-to-understand on-line tutorial I've found so far."
03:43:24 <pikhq> My hatred of distros is probably a bit too far ATM.
03:43:32 <pikhq> At the moment I'm even thinking LFS does everything wrong.
03:43:37 <pikhq> And LFS does hardly anything!
03:43:52 <pikhq> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter05/chapter05.html This is at least 50 lines too long.
03:44:32 <pikhq> It should read "Binutils, GCC, Linux headers, glibc, Busybox".
03:45:42 <monqy> nice how binutils and gcc each have two passes
03:45:56 <pikhq> It's pointless cargo culting.
03:46:23 <pikhq> Also, GCC has *4* passes.
03:46:25 <Deewiant> "This system will contain just enough tools to start constructing the final LFS system in Chapter 6 and allow a working environment with more user convenience than a minimum environment would."
03:46:26 <pikhq> The first build bootstraps.
03:46:38 <pikhq> Deewiant: They lie.
03:46:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: Busybox would be much more comfortable.
03:47:11 <pikhq> Busybox is, surprisingly, a fairly full-featured userspace.
03:47:43 <pikhq> Yeah, but it beats GNU.
03:48:10 <elliott_> it would be nice if there was an actually good coreutils
03:50:07 <coppro> pikhq: second build is to do the other half of the bootstrap right?
03:50:13 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Yeah.
03:50:30 <pikhq> coppro: No, it's to make a GCC linked against your new libc.
03:50:40 <NihilistDandy> My feeling on the whole LFS thing was "Here are some neat instructions, but do whatever the hell you want."
03:50:57 <NihilistDandy> I built two of them, and I never followed everything to the letter
03:50:57 <pikhq> I told you, it's fucking cargo cult.
03:51:25 <NihilistDandy> If you're a Linux user who's content following directions because the internet told you to, you deserve the cargo cult
03:51:48 <elliott_> Pop quiz: What are the complexities of many common (codepoint-based) operations on a structure which consists of a raw block of UTF-8 bytes, plus another list as long as the number of codepoints with offsets into the string saying where those codepoints start?
03:52:15 <elliott_> e.g. inserting into the middle
03:53:34 <elliott_> pikhq: how did you invite me btw
03:53:42 <pikhq> elliott_: I sent you a message.
03:53:55 <pikhq> It autoinvites people that you send messages to.
03:53:58 <elliott_> (btw by raw block I actually meant like a cord srtucture or whatever)
03:55:51 <elliott_> NihilistDandy: dunno, it's me asking you guys
03:56:28 <elliott_> pikhq: does it have to be just them?
03:56:53 <pikhq> elliott_: I dunno, maybe?
04:04:55 <elliott_> "The problem is right there. Always has been. People who think that
04:04:56 <elliott_> userspace filesystems are realistic for anything but toys are just
04:11:18 <CakeProphet> http://www.bioinformatics.org/benchmark/results.html
04:11:27 <CakeProphet> I wonder why these programs are generally faster in Windows...
04:14:01 <pikhq> I'd need more information to say.
04:14:32 <pikhq> Though the odds are good glibc is to blame.
04:16:30 * CakeProphet is trying to find a Perl vs Python benchmark that isn't a) lacking in information b) biased towards one language in some way
04:16:53 <CakeProphet> this site obviously has a bias towards Perl...
04:17:40 <pikhq> Benchmarking languages is the wrong question.
04:19:36 <pikhq> In other news, Stephen Colbert is now a so-called "Super PAC".
04:20:08 <pikhq> Which means that he is personally a lobbying organisation that can be handed infinite amounts of money by corporations.
04:20:16 <CakeProphet> elliott_: well, considering both Python and Perl both have one major implementation, this isn't unreasonable.
04:20:37 <pikhq> US politics has devolved into comedy.
04:20:46 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Still not comparing language speed.
04:20:51 <pikhq> Implementation speed, perhaps, but hey.
04:20:53 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: No.
04:20:58 <elliott_> CakeProphet: they're not even real languages, there is no definition
04:21:25 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Here's the Perl spec. "What /bin/perl does."
04:21:32 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Here's the Python spec. "What /bin/python does."
04:21:40 <CakeProphet> is this some trivial formalism thing you guys are talking about? If so, I don't care about that.
04:21:42 <pikhq> That's just shitty.
04:21:58 <coppro> pikhq: Python is actually interpreter-is-correct? I thought it was spec-based
04:22:03 <coppro> pikhq: Also Perl 6 has a spec
04:22:05 <coppro> although it's a messy one
04:22:12 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Show me the definition of Python.
04:22:15 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Show me the definition of Perl.
04:22:30 <coppro> Any inconsistency in Perl between docs and program is officially a bug in the docs
04:22:32 <NihilistDandy> The ad released by "Turn Right USA", another Super PAC
04:22:34 <elliott_> if you point to an implementation, then you're saying that the language has defined segfaults
04:22:49 <NihilistDandy> Probably NSFW, and definitely unsafe for nonracists
04:23:21 <CakeProphet> elliott_: Python has a grammar spec. Does that count?
04:23:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:23:53 <pikhq> coppro: Non-officially; they don't even go so far as to say "the implementation is correct".
04:24:03 <pikhq> Python, de jure, DNE.
04:25:06 <CakeProphet> I would say this http://docs.python.org/reference/ is pretty close to being a spec.
04:26:02 <pikhq> Documentation != spec.
04:27:13 <pikhq> There is no such thing as a compliant Python interpreter.
04:27:15 <zzo38> But I would say in the case of TeX, the program book and documentation book together make up a specification of how standard TeX should work
04:27:24 <CakeProphet> What makes that document not a language specification?
04:27:34 <coppro> CakeProphet: It is not considered authoritative
04:27:46 <coppro> Someone could implement that document entirely and it would not necessarily be considered correct
04:28:02 <pikhq> There are only interpreters which happen to execute input similarly to the "CPython" program.
04:28:30 <CakeProphet> coppro: well, it would be missing the standard library.
04:28:57 <pikhq> CakeProphet: And certainly not be bug-for-bug compliant.
04:29:29 <zzo38> How would you know if it is correct or not? And what if there is some ambiguous things mentioned in the document?
04:29:47 <CakeProphet> ...but this has nothing to do with benchmarking the most commonly used implementation of a language.
04:30:21 <pikhq> Yes it does, because there is no language.
04:30:35 <pikhq> There are only interpreters
04:31:00 <pikhq> And yes, we are just being picky.
04:31:06 <pikhq> That doesn't make it any better.
04:31:11 <elliott_> it means they're not languages, though
04:31:41 <CakeProphet> There is an entire set of documentation on the language, standard libraries, and grammar of the CPython implementation that is considered standard for any practical purpose. I don't see why it matters that it's not called a specification.
04:32:40 <elliott_> if the implementation violated the documentation (not in an obviously buggy way like segfaulting), which would be fixed?
04:32:52 <elliott_> if you can't answer "the implementation, no question whatsoever", then it is not a specification.
04:33:29 <zzo38> And that is one purpose to use literate programming; is so you do not have this problem.
04:34:08 <CakeProphet> ..but you can't say "there is no Python language" as a result.
04:34:31 <CakeProphet> because there clearly is one. It is documented to exist.
04:34:49 <pikhq> There is "the CPython interpreter's behavior".
04:35:03 <elliott_> theres some other programs that try to imitate it
04:35:09 <pikhq> To create a "Python" interpreter, one is imitating CPython.
04:35:10 <zzo38> Yes, you can't say "there is no Python language" as a result unless perhaps you have some philosophy and you are being very philosophical about it then you might prefer to say there is no such thing, maybe....... maybe not......
04:35:13 <CakeProphet> ...this is a completely pointless discussion. I am done.
04:35:21 <pikhq> zzo38: We're being philosophical about it.
04:35:25 <monqy> the language specified by what cpython does
04:35:52 <pikhq> Dang, Congress is even more disfunctional than usual.
04:36:04 <pikhq> 18 bills have passed this year.
04:36:25 <pikhq> No, utterly trivial bills.
04:36:29 <pikhq> 15 of them name buildings.
04:36:36 <elliott_> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/?p=955 i never understand mcbride, but he always makes me happy
04:36:45 <coppro> pikhq: and the other three?
04:37:01 <CakeProphet> elliott_: this man-crush is becoming somewhat eerie.
04:37:04 <zzo38> I suppose you can be philosophical about it, or whatever else you want to be about it; especially, this is esoteric programming channel, but even in non-esoteric programming you can think about such things for whatever reason whatsoever, even.
04:37:20 <monqy> man-crush is that when one man crushes another man
04:37:33 <monqy> murder is okay when it's manly
04:37:38 <coppro> for some definition of crush
04:37:43 <elliott_> CakeProphet: i just had the tab open
04:37:49 <elliott_> and he linked to the new e-pig post
04:38:07 <monqy> do you dream about conor mcbride
04:38:40 <elliott_> im going to go into his house and take off his skin and wear it and become him
04:38:49 <monqy> make yourself happy
04:38:54 <pikhq> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Acts_of_the_112th_United_States_Congress
04:39:41 <CakeProphet> zzo38: I just don't see how not making a spec for a language /invalids all benchmarking ever/. Which was how this topic started.
04:40:02 <pikhq> We're travelling fast towards default.
04:40:10 <pikhq> AKA "The end of economy".
04:40:27 <monqy> sorry I pretty much just got back but why do you want benchmarking
04:40:34 <monqy> isn't benchmarking an implementation thing anyway
04:40:45 <elliott_> CakeProphet: you were talking about benchmarking the implementations of a language
04:41:11 <monqy> this depends on the definition of language doesnt it
04:41:17 <zzo38> CakeProphet: It doesn't (with the exception of a few kinds of philosophical ideas) but it is helpful. But benchmarking is helpful for implementation mostly is in fact correct. But can be compared
04:41:23 <elliott_> but you can't refer to it as a language
04:41:35 <monqy> if languages can be specified by the behavior of a program then yeah python is a language
04:41:48 <elliott_> that's a specification that nobody believes
04:41:56 <elliott_> because people report bugs in the python program for implementing Python wrong
04:41:58 <zzo38> Such as, the program "python" and the "python" snake and the "Monty Python" and so on
04:42:02 <CakeProphet> okay, yesterday I wrote a program in the python interpreter. It was not a programming language. I just programmed thin air.
04:42:02 <elliott_> "this behaviour is incorrect", etc.
04:42:06 <monqy> heheheheheheheehehe
04:42:22 <elliott_> CakeProphet: you programmed a Python program. but Python is not a programming language.
04:42:33 <monqy> python is a human language
04:42:42 <monqy> for communicating between humans
04:42:45 <CakeProphet> right, the Python program was written in nothingness. Python is pretty mystical sometimes.
04:42:47 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes, it does make difficult. Is it just the idea of the people who have programmed it, or the collective? So, one could say either the document or implementation might be the wrong one possibly?
04:42:58 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, I got a miscount.
04:43:03 <pikhq> Still utterly ridiculous.
04:43:17 <pikhq> zzo38: They could both be wrong.
04:43:24 <coppro> pikhq: also I definitely do not see 15 for naming buildings
04:43:27 <pikhq> zzo38: If van Rossum says so.
04:43:39 <pikhq> coppro: So further research told me I was wrong?
04:43:44 <elliott_> ok, python is a language whose spec is a physical brain
04:43:46 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes maybe they could both be wrong. Maybe. (It is, again, another kind of philosophical idea)
04:43:49 <pikhq> coppro: Still. Utterly ridiculous.
04:44:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Slightly less philosophical, because Python runs on the benevolent dictator model.
04:44:23 <monqy> it's been a while since I've done anything in python. I don't think I've ever used any of its really fancy features either. those things are spooky.
04:44:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps. OK.
04:44:53 <zzo38> monqy: What kind of realy fancy features?
04:45:00 <monqy> I dunno I forgot them all
04:45:17 <monqy> they're probably really simple too but they spook me out
04:45:20 <CakeProphet> I often wonder what language I'm writing in when I write a Python program. It is deeply confusing to me. This conversation has clarified things for me.
04:45:40 <zzo38> I have done two things in Python. I wrote some solitaire card games and I have modified a drive wipe script for FreeGeek Vancouver.
04:45:40 <monqy> i write my python programs in perl btw
04:46:21 <monqy> oh wait perl doesn't exist either
04:47:05 <monqy> I guess I really am confused about what language I'm writing in when I write a Python program.
04:47:44 <CakeProphet> if only you had some kind of document that described the language to you. A document that may in fact be subject to change in the future.
04:48:05 <NihilistDandy> Stick to SKI, then. At least that's a mathematical fact.
04:48:05 <monqy> a formal specification?
04:48:08 <CakeProphet> as the language changes, for whatever reason. These things are ephemeral.
04:48:45 <zzo38> Perhaps instead of saying you wrote the program in Python you say it is written in python instead (that is, without uppercase "P"), which is used to indicate that, you have the program "python" which can be used to interpret the program in the language whatever it happens to be, if anything...
04:48:46 <monqy> what if you define a language by a spec and then leave that spec alone and make a new spec when you want to change it
04:49:04 <zzo38> monqy: Then you should give them version numbers, or, if they don't have them, refer to them by dates.
04:49:22 <monqy> NihilistDandy: or scheme
04:49:24 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Haskell is versioned.
04:49:28 <monqy> or a bunch of other languages
04:49:42 <monqy> I thought it meant singing
04:49:48 * CakeProphet wrote a program in the C language yesterday.
04:50:03 <pikhq> There's two such languages.
04:50:20 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Strange, I thought it was a vaguely sing-songy type thing. だね〜？
04:50:34 <zzo38> And then there are variants of C and implementation specific features of C programs, in addition to others too.
04:51:02 <monqy> would you like me to find the spec~
04:51:47 <CakeProphet> I don't know. I thought I explained this...
04:52:11 <zzo38> I happen to like a subset of the "GNU89" version of C
04:52:44 <monqy> quines as specified by which version of C
04:52:45 <NihilistDandy> pikhq: In Japanese I've always thought of it more as an extension of the vowel, but I suppose many speakers make that sound fairly sing-dongy
04:53:06 <pikhq> Fuck it, I'll presume ISO C99+POSIX 2008.1
04:53:11 <pikhq> CakeProphet: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm
04:53:47 <CakeProphet> monqy: The C that is implemented by the gcc, I think.
04:53:48 <pikhq> NihilistDandy: Fair 'nough.
04:53:50 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Not knowing because is explained and how you go in circles is one of the kind of philosophical because sometimes making philosophy, if it is of the confusing kind, results in this kind of things. So that is how you learn (kind of)!
04:54:04 <pikhq> CakeProphet: So ISO C99!
04:54:32 <CakeProphet> oh okay. Yeah sometimes I get confused because people are like "go write programs in C", and I assume C is a language.
04:54:59 <monqy> C is a family of languages
04:56:41 <zzo38> CakeProphet: They don't know.
04:57:07 <CakeProphet> the thing about Python is that the language changes between CPython versions, pretty much.
04:57:41 <zzo38> Another thing is what parts should be considered "the language"
04:58:05 <monqy> the language defined by cpython's behaviour at verison (version here)
04:58:37 <CakeProphet> I would Python is a family of languages, with specific languages being versioned.
04:59:03 <CakeProphet> I remember in #python it would sometimes help to specify which version of Python you were talking about
04:59:37 <monqy> if only python were formally specified
04:59:47 <CakeProphet> yes, then it could be one language, like C.
05:00:05 <monqy> proper implementations of python _must not have_ tail call optimisation
05:00:42 <monqy> by the cpython. by the guidos brain.
05:02:12 <monqy> what just happened :(
05:02:34 <monqy> !perl print $x = 5 => $x = 6;
05:03:14 <monqy> !perl print $x = 5 => $x = 6 => $x = $x;
05:03:20 <CakeProphet> I'm actually not sure what is happening now...
05:03:53 <monqy> !perl print $x = $x => $x = 5 => $x = 6;
05:04:33 <CakeProphet> ..yeah, assignment precedence does weird things.
05:05:01 <CakeProphet> that and the fact that , does two completely different things.
05:05:33 <monqy> !perl print ($x = (print ($x = print ($x = 5))))
05:06:06 <CakeProphet> see, it would be nice if print actually returned what it printed, but instead it returns 1
05:06:28 <monqy> !perl print $x => ($x = print ($x = 5)) => $x
05:07:10 <monqy> !perl print $x => ($x = 5) => $x
05:07:20 <monqy> how did it figure that out
05:07:47 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
05:09:01 <monqy> !perl $a = 5; ($a, $b) = ($b, $a); print $a;
05:09:24 <CakeProphet> yeah see I have no clue why it printed 555 above.
05:09:25 <monqy> unification failure there perl
05:09:52 -!- fizzie has joined.
05:10:49 <monqy> !perl print ($x=5), $x
05:11:10 <monqy> !perl print ($x=5) => $x
05:11:25 <elliott_> <monqy> !perl print $x => ($x = 5) => $x
05:11:27 <monqy> but with one special thing so why not have another
05:11:37 <elliott_> if you look at how this evaluates
05:11:41 <monqy> it allows a bareword on the left right?
05:11:47 <elliott_> maybe it evaluates assignments first
05:12:01 <monqy> but then what about ($x=5), $x
05:12:11 <elliott_> print "$x", ($x = 5), ... no wait
05:12:15 <CakeProphet> it seems to be exclusive to the print operator.
05:12:15 <elliott_> that wouldn't explain the last one
05:13:38 <CakeProphet> !perl @x = ($x, $x, $y); $x=5;$y=2; print @x
05:13:43 -!- zzo38 has left.
05:14:06 <CakeProphet> might have something to do with how Perl uses lists in assignment operators.
05:14:33 <elliott_> i always hate when people post about areas of my expertise because they'll be wrong
05:15:24 <EgoBot> Can't declare scalar assignment in "my" at /tmp/input.18475 line 1, near "))"
05:16:29 <CakeProphet> !perl (@z = ($x=$y, $y=2)) = ('a','b'); print @z, $x, $y;
05:16:50 <CakeProphet> !perl (@z = ($x=$y, $y=2)) = ('a','b'); print @z, ' ', $x, $y;
05:17:16 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:17:56 <CakeProphet> !perl (@z = ($x=$y, $y=2)); print @z, ' ', $x, $y;
05:18:42 <CakeProphet> but now I don't know what is expected and what is unexpected...
05:18:53 <monqy> what if perl had a real spec
05:19:16 <monqy> (no that was a trick question it would be too much of a mess)
05:19:29 <monqy> ((that was a joke of course it would help))
05:19:32 <monqy> (((what am I saying)))
05:20:22 <monqy> is it a good place
05:22:38 <CakeProphet> more often than not I get assaulted with useless pickiness, which is weird because it's Perl we're talking about..
05:22:56 <monqy> theres only one way to do it
05:23:47 * elliott_ notes that CakeProphet considers everything useless pickiness
05:23:54 <monqy> do they get mad about doing obscene things with perl
05:23:57 <monqy> i.e. anything with perl
05:24:03 <monqy> (perl jokes are funny)
05:24:41 <monqy> seriously though is there any sort of perl that's considered abusive
05:25:37 <monqy> obfuscated too far for respect
05:25:48 <CakeProphet> depends on who you talk to. I generally don't care. others do.
05:25:55 <monqy> exploited a bug in the spec
05:26:07 <elliott_> obfuscated too far for respect / exploited a bug in the spec
05:26:12 <elliott_> opening lyrics of Abusive Perl
05:31:18 <CakeProphet> < tm604> eval: [ $x, $x - 3, $x = 5, $x - 3 ] # they're processed left-to-right but since $x is an lvalue it'll stay as $x in the resulting expression
05:31:26 <CakeProphet> < SpiceMan> anyway, assigning in a list is wrong
05:31:44 <CakeProphet> I didn't know programming style was such a deep, ethical issue.
05:31:56 -!- zzo38 has left.
05:32:04 <monqy> there's more than one way to do it but that isn't one
05:32:55 <CakeProphet> < tm604> It'll evaluate to 5 when converting to the arrayref in the above example - but would stay as an lvalue if you passed that list to a function call.
05:33:18 <elliott_> "is wrong" -- oh noes ethical judgement
05:37:46 <monqy> im having trouble grokking the concept of perl style pedantry
05:37:58 <monqy> isnt perl for dirty hacks why else would anyone use it
05:38:29 <CakeProphet> I guess there are pedants for every language...
05:39:10 <NihilistDandy> Perl pedants are former C pedants who decided they wanted something more opaque.
05:40:20 <NihilistDandy> Actually, I don't think I've known anyone that used perl for long without developing their own particular brand of pedantry about it
05:40:38 <NihilistDandy> Except the ones who switched to python because it was the sexy new (nonexistent) thing
05:41:03 <CakeProphet> !perl @x = ($x,$x,$x=2); ($x[0],$y) = (3,4); print @x,' ',$x,$y
05:41:14 <monqy> my perl pedantry is i cant stand perl code that doesnt cave in to heinous obfuscation
05:41:23 <CakeProphet> NihilistDandy: I switched from python to perl, so...
05:41:41 <CakeProphet> so far I am not pedantic about Perl. But I'm not pedantic about any language really.
05:42:54 <NihilistDandy> Any language is dangerous if you buy into the hype
05:43:07 <CakeProphet> so apparently the lvalues evaluated after the list evaluates. So it's just a weird case that happens inside lists.
05:43:17 <monqy> "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with fingernail clippings mixed in." -- literally god
05:44:55 <CakeProphet> !perl sub test {$_[0] = 2} $x = 1; test($x); print $x;
05:46:14 <CakeProphet> usually this "feature" is disabled when you reassign @_ or use shift, which is what 99% of Perl functions do.
05:47:18 <CakeProphet> !perl sub test {shift = 2} $x = 1; test($x); print $x;
05:47:18 <EgoBot> Can't modify shift in scalar assignment at /tmp/input.20928 line 1, near "2}"
05:48:47 <CakeProphet> you /can/ define subroutines that can be used as lvalues.
05:52:57 <CakeProphet> !perl sub take : lvalue {$_[0]} sub test { &take = 3} $x = 0; test($x); print $x;
05:59:04 <CakeProphet> I actually enjoy Perl's depravity. This is what stands out to me.
06:03:40 <CakeProphet> You could actually write programs in a style similar to Python.
06:05:13 <CakeProphet> well no, you would actually want to /declare/ your variables. This is counter-intuitive to Python style.
06:06:36 <CakeProphet> in which variables magically appear at runtime like the hash table keys they are.
06:08:28 <CakeProphet> in a class definition? don't want a hash table? no worries, you can just define a huge list of strings named __slots__. Very clean and pythonic.
06:09:56 <CakeProphet> actually it might be a tuple. I can't recall.
06:40:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:50:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:54:28 <zzo38> Yes, it is true! It is not true!
07:02:05 <zzo38> I do not think pi has anything to do with circles. I think circles has to do with pi. Some people think tau (2pi) should be used instead of pi but I am one of those who disagrees with that idea. Even if you somehow believe that the ratio of a circumference to the diameter is 3, that doesn't mean pi is 3.
07:04:06 <elliott_> fyguhijokp[l];';kljhgfdrt90iuhgvui09-hviop0jhbvi90jio0-9ijnbjio0-
07:09:10 <zzo38> Can you please write it more clearly this time?
07:10:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
07:10:13 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
07:10:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
07:13:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:14:00 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:16:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:29:24 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:29:33 -!- foocraft_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:56:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:25:35 <elliott_> Deewiant: vertex object things
08:25:41 <elliott_> GL.bufferData GL.ArrayBuffer GL.$= (fromIntegral size, ptr, GL.StaticDraw)
08:25:47 <elliott_> that ptr could literally be a pointer to ()s
08:25:53 <elliott_> at least use a typeclass, jeez
08:26:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:34:38 -!- Vorpal has joined.
08:39:55 <elliott_> Deewiant: A typeclass, since the a should always be one of the GL value types :P
08:39:58 <elliott_> (Unless I'm missing something)
08:40:18 <Deewiant> I think it really can be anything
08:41:52 <Deewiant> You can use it to just store arbitrary data on the GPU AFAICT
08:43:50 <elliott_> Deewiant: That sounds like a terrible idea if you have e.g. Ptr (a -> b)
08:44:05 <elliott_> GC doesn't look at GPU memory :P
08:44:32 <Deewiant> If you move GC data away from the GC then obviously you have to handle it somehow, yes :-)
08:52:12 <elliott_> "Someone should be paying you full-time to actually make all of these things that will be so much better than all the other versions of those things."
08:52:17 <elliott_> the nicest thing i have ever been told ;_____;
09:23:56 -!- wth has joined.
09:24:22 -!- wth has changed nick to Guest41798.
09:24:30 -!- Guest41798 has left.
10:05:56 -!- foocraft has joined.
10:21:16 <lambdabot> Source not found. My pet ferret can type better than you!
10:22:03 <elliott_> Deewiant: yeah, then i realised that's not relevant
10:22:10 * elliott_ is trying to make the code in http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/Kleisli.pdf work
10:22:19 <elliott_> instance (IFunctor f ,IFunctor g) ⇒ IFunctor (f :+: g) where
10:22:19 <elliott_> imap h (InL fp) = InL (imap h fp)
10:22:19 <elliott_> imap h (InR gp) = InR (imap h gp)
10:25:14 <elliott_> /home/elliott/Code/outrageous-fortune/outrageous-fortune.hs:58:33:
10:25:15 <elliott_> from the context (IFunctor f, IFunctor g)
10:25:15 <elliott_> bound by the instance declaration
10:25:15 <elliott_> at /home/elliott/Code/outrageous-fortune/outrageous-fortune.hs:3:10-55
10:25:15 <elliott_> `g' is a rigid type variable bound by
10:25:22 <elliott_> at /home/elliott/Code/outrageous-fortune/outrageous-fortune.hs:3:32
10:25:24 <elliott_> `f' is a rigid type variable bound by
10:25:27 <elliott_> at /home/elliott/Code/outrageous-fortune/outrageous-fortune.hs:3:20
10:25:33 <elliott_> In the second argument of `imap', namely `gp'
10:25:36 <elliott_> In the first argument of `InL', namely `(imap h gp)'
10:25:37 <elliott_> In the expression: InL (imap h gp)
10:27:55 <elliott_> (This after I added kind signatures to :+:.0
10:37:19 -!- azaq23 has joined.
10:49:34 <elliott_> no simpler way to write that, right
10:49:46 <Deewiant> ?ty \a b -> const id <$> a <*> b
10:49:47 <lambdabot> forall a a1 (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => f a1 -> f a -> f a
10:50:01 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f b
10:50:22 <Deewiant> Well, that's where you got it from I guess, heh
10:51:58 <elliott_> haha wow, the arrows of outrageous fortune are...
10:52:24 <elliott_> So, choose a big text file, a Shakespearean tragedy, perhaps, and invoke
10:52:24 <elliott_> runFH $ fileContents "Hamlet.txt"
10:52:37 <elliott_> im running it on /usr/share/dict words and my computer isnt showing what im typing any more oh
10:53:42 <elliott_> i just watched the oom killer kill chrome
10:54:11 <elliott_> oh and THEN he tells us how to do it fastly
11:05:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
11:21:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, gnome 3 is a disaster, I gave up on it when I couldn't even locate the setting for changing window decorations theme after 10 minutes of searching in the preferences...
11:22:02 <Deewiant> After all, configurability is bad and confusing
11:22:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, gave lxde a try but it was crashy. Could be due to catalyst drivers since it was X itself that crashed from trying to change lxde desktop bg colour, but the backtrace from X segfaulting seemed free from catalyst things
11:22:25 <Vorpal> xfce seems to work well
11:22:38 <Deewiant> Why do people use desktop environments
11:22:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, as opposed to just a window manager?
11:24:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm, for me, because I haven't found a window manager that I liked yet. I tried a few.
11:24:21 <Vorpal> I don't like tiling window managers I found out
11:25:40 <Deewiant> So you like gnome 2 / lxde / xfce but not any WMs, or?
11:26:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well lxde I have been unable to decide if I like yet
11:26:26 <Vorpal> due to it crashing on some stuff
11:26:49 <Vorpal> but lxde had a few other issues as well
11:27:11 <Vorpal> like not being able (as far as I could tell) to use the default X cursors, instead of fancy ones.
11:27:26 <Vorpal> and also I didn't find a non-horrible window decoration theme in it
11:27:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, gnome 2 I like. KDE 3.5 and older too. xfce4 is quite nice
11:28:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I tried a few WMs and twm is kind of nice when it comes to behaviour, but it looks ugly as fuck, even if you change the colours with xresources or whatever it was
11:28:41 <Vorpal> tiling WMs I don't seem to like so far
11:28:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, any suggestions for non-tiling WMs?
11:29:23 <Deewiant> And shall now relocate to a bus stop -->
11:29:28 <Vorpal> hm, I haven't tried that one actually
11:29:34 <Vorpal> I think I tried some other *box?
11:49:57 <Deewiant> I found small nits in all the other boxes (no I can't remember what they were)
11:56:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
12:43:23 <elliott_> yess rayman installer launches
12:43:43 <elliott_> "Full installation MMX for DirectX [six].[one]"
12:43:48 <elliott_> ah...yes, this is what i want...
12:47:01 <elliott_> ah, i need dlinput.dll for this
12:47:10 <elliott_> quintopia: Deewiant: CakeProphet: do any of you use windows ever
12:50:08 <elliott_> In my case, I used a Windows Vista "dinput.dll" file, as the one from my "Rayman 2" CD didn't work for me.
12:50:13 <elliott_> Sgeo: do you have access to a windows partition
12:50:23 <Sgeo> The one I'm currently using
12:50:31 <Sgeo> Is 7 close enough/identical?
12:50:47 <elliott_> Sgeo: can i have your \windows\system[thirtytwo]\dinput.dll file?
12:52:57 * Sgeo takes elliott's email address from Agora
12:53:32 <elliott_> in return you can have a useless google+ invite
12:57:13 <Sgeo> Huh, I have to link Google+ with Picasa
12:57:23 <Sgeo> Maybe this will make Picasa on my phone work?
12:57:53 <Sgeo> The choices given were to link, or not to join Google+
12:58:20 <elliott_> "SITE RAYMAN2" <-- good english in menus
12:59:05 <elliott_> todo: get antialiasing enabled in it somehow, maybe dare to try widescreen, fullscreen
12:59:12 <elliott_> sgeo you've played rayman right
12:59:18 <elliott_> then you can UNDERSTAND MY DELIGHT
12:59:25 <Sgeo> I've... heard of it. Might have seen it being playe
12:59:33 <Sgeo> Unless I'm thinking of a different game
12:59:45 <elliott_> go pirate it and play it it's the best three-dimensional platform game ever created :{
12:59:56 <Deewiant> elliott_: Yes, I dualboot Windows 7 for gaming
13:00:12 <Deewiant> I didn't really want to help you anyway
13:00:26 <Sgeo> elliott_, does it have glowy sphere things called lums?
13:01:04 <Sgeo> Ok, yeah, I've watched my friend play it a long time ago
13:02:03 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:09:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:12:37 -!- elliott has joined.
13:12:43 <elliott> Stupidly hard to get this to fullscreen right
13:12:50 <elliott> Is there a way to get wine to do everything as a virtual desktop, just a fullscreen one :P
13:18:26 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:34:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:34:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
13:34:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:34:42 <CakeProphet> perhaps virtual box has what elliott is looking for
13:34:54 <CakeProphet> also, installing Windows will likely have a similar effect.
13:36:04 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, I thought VirtualBox doesn't work well with 3d
13:43:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:44:58 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:45:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host).
13:45:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:56:47 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
14:01:33 -!- azaq23 has joined.
14:05:24 -!- elliott has joined.
14:14:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:15:24 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:25:18 -!- elliott_ has joined.
14:25:18 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:18:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:22:01 <elliott_> olsner: you konw how you were oh and i want with and but yeah its let me knwo if?
15:33:03 <elliott_> unsafePerformIO (>>= #0 #1) = seq# #0 (#1 #0);
15:33:03 <elliott_> unsafePerformIO (return #0) = #0;
15:35:40 <elliott_> wait i can do that better, unsafePerformIO could be id
15:38:30 <Sgeo> Unboxed? I'm generally clueless about that. Why is #1 being used like a function?
15:50:42 <elliott_> olsner: yeah i pretty much invented the best
16:27:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:37:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:37:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:38:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:38:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
16:38:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:47:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
16:51:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:02:28 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:18:56 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
17:21:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:23:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:24:00 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:32:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
17:35:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:35:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:36:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:59:55 -!- monqy has joined.
18:02:04 -!- nooga has joined.
18:16:04 -!- elliott has joined.
18:16:04 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:30:54 <Sgeo> I should be able to use calibre to work around Nook Touch's file support limitations, right?
18:40:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
18:41:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:01:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:13:46 -!- nooga has joined.
19:17:59 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
19:18:52 -!- nooga has joined.
19:24:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:27:06 <elliott> hey oerjan unsafePerformIO $0 = $0;
19:27:33 -!- micahjohnston has left ("〆").
19:34:27 <elliott> Gregor: Can GGGGGGGGGGGGC handle two consecutive non-pointer members?
19:34:37 <elliott> You can't really tag the previous field in that situation.
19:35:17 <elliott> kanji of some kind, it seems
19:35:21 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
19:35:23 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:35:26 -!- elliott has joined.
19:38:26 -!- derrik has joined.
19:41:02 <Gregor> elliott: I assume you're referring to Fythe?
19:41:11 <elliott> Gregor: No I am referring to GGGGGGGGGC
19:41:24 <Gregor> GGGGC only uses tagging w/ Fythe.
19:41:28 <elliott> GGGGC with Fythe's model of distinguishing literal values
19:41:38 <elliott> Can that model handle consecutive non-pointers?
19:41:50 <Gregor> Remember what a Fythe value is?
19:42:04 <elliott> Yes, but that doesn't answer my question :P
19:42:27 <elliott> It tells me you didn't do it that way.
19:42:32 <Gregor> It cannot handle consecutive non-pointers, and it doesn't need to.
19:42:33 <elliott> It doesn't tell me it can't be done that way.
19:42:53 <elliott> I'll probably just put a tag on every word, then.
19:43:44 -!- derrik has left.
19:45:45 <oerjan> <elliott> hey oerjan unsafePerformIO $0 = $0; <-- wat
19:46:30 <oerjan> = $0; does not parse afaik
19:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: who said it was haskell
19:47:19 <elliott> _start = (>>) main (return Unit);
19:47:19 <elliott> main = (>>) (putStrLn _Cstr_0) (putStrLn _Cstr_1);
19:47:20 <elliott> _Cstr_0 = (:) 72 ((:) 101 ((:) 108 ((:) 108 ((:) 111 ((:) 44 ((:) 32 ((:) 119 ((:) 111 ((:) 114 ((:) 108 ((:) 100 ((:) 33 []))))))))))));
19:47:20 <elliott> _Cstr_1 = (:) 71 ((:) 111 ((:) 111 ((:) 100 ((:) 98 ((:) 121 ((:) 101 ((:) 44 ((:) 32 ((:) 99 ((:) 114 ((:) 117 ((:) 101 ((:) 108 ((:) 32 ((:) 119 ((:) 111 ((:) 114 ((:) 108 ((:) 100 ((:) 33 []))))))))))))))))))));
19:47:28 <elliott> (>>=) $0 $1 = seq# $0 ($1 $0);
19:47:34 <elliott> #foreign import "std" "putStrLn#"
20:01:45 <elliott> Gregor: Erm, did prgmr create a default account called codu on your system? X-D
20:01:51 <newsham> elliott: is that output from some program?
20:03:10 <newsham> I see. do you want a psychological referral?
20:03:35 <elliott> newsham: been there, done that.
20:03:35 <Gregor> elliott: I don't recall. I don't think so, I think I created it.
20:03:41 <newsham> next q: whats it input for? :)
20:03:47 <elliott> newsham: a hypothetical program
20:04:02 <elliott> Gregor: What, an account called "codu"? Why would you want an account named that?
20:04:08 <elliott> (My reasons for assuming they do are COMPLICATED)
20:04:14 <newsham> and does "seq# $0 ($1 $0)" work because of some kind of memoization?
20:04:37 <elliott> I don't see how memoisation is relevant
20:04:39 <newsham> if its just hypothetical, why not use teh infexes? :)
20:04:40 <elliott> Don't you just mean sharing?
20:05:04 <newsham> elliott: yes, sharing of the result of seq# on $0
20:05:15 <elliott> Prelude System.IO.Unsafe> let x = unsafePerformIO (print 99 >> return 0)
20:05:15 <elliott> Prelude System.IO.Unsafe> x `seq` id x
20:05:19 <newsham> memoizing the result the first time its computed
20:05:21 <elliott> That's a basic property of all functional languages
20:05:25 <elliott> It's just reducing a thunk
20:05:29 <Gregor> elliott: My main account is codu, because why not?
20:05:33 <elliott> Well, sure, that's a kind of memoisation, but that seems backwards to me
20:05:47 <newsham> elliott: yah, replacing the thunk with its result.. memoization.
20:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham, hey, why is your name an example of the Curry-Howard isomorphism?
20:06:14 <elliott> newsham: it's more like memoisation is ak ind of thunk reduction.
20:06:46 <newsham> the whois is that because i think CH is wikkit cool
20:08:35 <oerjan> elliott: you are of course aware that haskell permits implementations to assume referential transparency and evaluate x more than once.
20:09:11 <elliott> oerjan: I'm just saying that any implementation that _didn't_ reduce thunks in such a way would be completely braindead
20:09:14 <oerjan> and that ghc may have inlining optimizations which risk doing that.
20:09:19 <elliott> since sharing is integral to doing just about /anything/ circular with Haskell
20:09:36 <elliott> i.e., non-sharing implementations don't scale in a very major way in the physical universe
20:10:52 <newsham> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2245
20:11:17 <elliott> newsham: Anyway, there is no sharing or thunks as such in my model
20:11:20 <elliott> It's purely based on symbolic term rewriting
20:11:27 <elliott> So the "sharing" is just in that it literally reduces the term
20:11:48 <elliott> Because otherwise your IO actions would happen in a totally random order?
20:12:12 <newsham> elliott: but if there's no sharing, they can still happen in an odd order
20:12:15 <newsham> because they can happen two times
20:12:23 <oerjan> elliott: in ghc you are _not_ guaranteed that a is evaluated first in a `seq` b
20:12:43 <newsham> also when does io "happen" in term rewriting?
20:12:55 <elliott> oerjan: what's the explicit guarantee?
20:13:04 <elliott> newsham: Of course there's sharing
20:13:09 <elliott> It's implicit in the term reduction model
20:13:16 <oerjan> the explicit guarantee is that both will be evaluated before the seq returns...
20:13:18 <newsham> [10:08] < elliott> newsham: Anyway, there is no sharing or thunks as such in my model
20:13:26 <elliott> yes, because it's not explicit
20:13:39 <elliott> newsham: Anyway, it "happens" completely unsafely; whenever (putStrLn# s) gets reduced, it prints out the line.
20:13:45 <lambdabot> http://cs.hubfs.net/forums/thread/16353.aspx
20:13:45 <lambdabot> Title: hubFS: THE place for F# - Using PSeq from powerpack
20:13:49 <elliott> Of course it is totally unsafe and impure, but this is just the low-level, untyped implementation.
20:13:50 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel pseq :: a -> b -> b
20:13:52 <elliott> The focus is simplicity and speed.
20:14:19 <oerjan> elliott: pseq does give such a guarantee though, and exists precisely because seq doesn't
20:14:40 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/prelude.lam
20:15:16 <elliott> oerjan: In my model, the semantics are simple: when reducing (seq# a b), if a can be reduced, then it will be, within the seq# application; otherwise, the expression will be replaced by b.
20:20:12 <elliott> pikhq_: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ie7ze/lambdas_in_c/ post ur real lambdas
20:22:46 <monqy> who needs closures when you have c
20:23:03 <monqy> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ie7ze/lambdas_in_c/
20:23:12 <monqy> 13:20:13 < elliott> pikhq_: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ie7ze/lambdas_in_c/ post ur real lambdas
20:23:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:24:31 <newsham> phantom: at the very least I wanted a way to display numbers as ascii
20:24:35 <newsham> i do have numbers as lambdas, too
20:25:04 <elliott> (\f -> f a b c d (... sixty four arguments ...))
20:25:38 <newsham> phantom: actually I dont see numbers as lambdas in the prelude.. but i've written em! :)
20:26:35 <elliott> Pah, I implement numbers in the place they _should_ be: the type system.
20:26:55 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I can see nothing wrong with glogbot's rsync.
20:27:20 <copumpkin> elliott: real men implement numbers in a language that doesn't have a distinction between type system and values
20:27:32 <pikhq_> elliott: It's actually pretty close to the same thing.
20:27:35 <elliott> coppro: real men implement numbers in epigram two
20:27:53 <newsham> elliott: my "lambda" is just plain ole vanilla untyped lambda calc
20:28:00 <elliott> newsham: vanilla, more like villain
20:28:14 <pikhq_> elliott: Mine just return a struct with closed variables instead of a raw function pointer.
20:28:24 <newsham> would a villain help me do this? http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/obf2.py
20:28:53 <monqy> that looks like the work of a villain alright
20:29:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... fail.
20:29:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: glogbot tells you the rsync path for the channel you ask it in.
20:29:41 <Gregor> If you ask it in PM, it'll tell you where the hypothetical PM logs would be.
20:29:52 -!- foocraft has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:30:03 <newsham> obf2.py is a translation of http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/primes2.lam with a very minimal evaluator
20:30:03 <oerjan> Gregor: that sounds somewhat noisy
20:30:46 <oerjan> E_GLOGBOTBANNEDFORSPAMMING
20:30:51 <newsham> perhaps I should translate it to SKI.
20:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, more relevantly, it's not at all clear that it works that way.
20:31:14 <Gregor> oerjan: E_FORONEITRESPONDSINNOTICEANDFORTWOITONLYRESPONDSWHENASKEDJUSTLIKEEVERYOTHERBOT
20:31:45 <oerjan> E_GREGORTHINKSIMSERIOUS
20:32:46 <pikhq_> That Lazy K interpreter sucks. It leaks memory like a seive.
20:33:18 <newsham> ph: i'd still have to write the code to expand macros, and translate, and minimize the number of parens.
20:33:24 <Gregor> (You incompetent morons >_< )
20:33:29 <newsham> oh and also write a small set of ski prims
20:35:56 <Gregor> elliott: Ohhey, you can type symbols above numbers (and presumably numbers, too)
20:36:27 <elliott> im waiting for the new os x so i dont have to reinstall twice
20:36:34 <elliott> (once to wipe it for sending to apple)
20:36:38 <elliott> (once to inevitably upgrade after)
20:38:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <newsham> ph: i'd still have to write the code to expand macros, and translate, and minimize the number of parens.
20:38:58 <oerjan> one install to wipe them all
20:39:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is yours just state realworld?
20:39:48 <elliott> where realworld is i guess the input and output streams in lazy k
20:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember the details; realworld is a triple of somethin.
20:42:55 <newsham> in mine I just used a state monad that passes around a dummy value to sequence my "io"
20:43:11 <elliott> coppro: stop being named coppro
20:43:39 -!- foocraft has joined.
20:44:40 <elliott> well his io model is probably different
20:44:50 <newsham> phantom: i've used it successfully :)
20:45:37 <newsham> yah. i'm using builtin ints. and I have the ability to print a builtin string (but not manipulate it.. its more of a symbol than a string)
20:46:09 <newsham> here's an example program that uses bind_ to sequence IO http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/hanoi.lam
20:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone recommend one of the Schemes in Debian's repository to me; I can't pick.
20:48:59 <elliott> it's java, but it's rigidly rfivers-compliant.
20:49:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: get the deb from http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/main/sisc then
20:49:33 * oerjan thought elliott was misspelling sigh there
20:54:38 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham, wait did I link you to my quasi-monadic IO thing?
20:57:20 -!- myndzi has joined.
20:57:35 <newsham> i dont know if you did, i dont know if i care.. more info required
20:57:44 <monqy> i agree with newsham
20:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover/io.scm
20:58:32 <newsham> ty, i'll take a looksy (but not right now)
20:59:17 * Phantom_Hoover notes that he still hasn't cleaned up the bind function after it was strictified to no avail.
21:02:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/D1ffe7e45e no top
21:02:13 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:30 <monqy> elliott did you see madk's pogo interpreter('s source code)
21:02:52 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10116881/esoteric/PoGo.zip
21:03:01 <elliott> oh dropbox famous code distirbution service
21:03:34 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure which is sadder, the video or the Christians trying and failing to explain why it's wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myfZ8hmmApE
21:03:50 <monqy> it does a case to assign every command a number
21:03:57 <monqy> and then does a case on the numbers
21:04:00 <Sgeo_> Oh, there's one that hits a relevant point
21:04:11 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/21.html
21:04:11 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/83.html
21:04:13 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:04:13 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
21:04:13 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:04:23 <elliott> monqy: this is impressive code
21:04:58 <elliott> <Sgeo_> I'm not sure which is sadder, the video or the Christians trying and failing to explain why it's wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myfZ8hmmApE
21:05:04 <elliott> --Sgeo "I disproved God with Prolog" Sgeo
21:05:06 <monqy> see Function masculinity
21:05:10 <monqy> (and where it's called)
21:05:21 <elliott> this is good soundtrack for god disproving
21:06:01 <monqy> i like lines 294-302
21:06:50 <elliott> disproving that god exists to the song: Beer
21:07:14 <elliott> want to archive it forever
21:07:41 <NihilistDandy> And the little cop-out at the end just makes it all the sweeter
21:08:02 <monqy> i like the comments
21:08:08 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, what's wrong with it this time?
21:08:12 <Sgeo_> monqy, I'm SJGster >.>
21:08:18 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu6lgNgAH38
21:08:31 <elliott> "Location: Admiring them boobs"
21:08:51 <elliott> "I do suspect that the idea of an omniscient being can be mathematically disproven, but I don't think your video does that."
21:09:48 <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
21:09:55 <elliott> `addquote <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
21:09:59 <HackEgo> 476) <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
21:10:02 <HackEgo> 278) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
21:10:07 <HackEgo> 72) <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
21:10:08 <HackEgo> 251) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
21:10:10 <HackEgo> 297) <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott_> I'm a bit 'tarded. <Vorpal> (NOTHING PERSONAL!)
21:10:11 <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
21:10:11 <HackEgo> 408) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
21:10:13 <HackEgo> 173) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 115) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
21:10:24 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't finished manually making sure nothing links to anything malicious
21:10:31 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, what directory do you want?
21:10:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, fix your crack pairings so they include all 4 quadrants.
21:11:05 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, the crack pairings generator is obsolete
21:11:09 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:11:16 <elliott> why am i reading these words on my screen
21:11:17 <Sgeo_> More tables have been added to the thread it's based off, but then the thread was closed
21:11:44 <elliott> Nisstyre: who's nissing my tyres
21:12:00 <elliott> NihilistDandy: youtueb intelectual
21:12:07 <elliott> Nisstyre: i want my tyres unnissed
21:12:13 <elliott> nissing probably does bad things to my car
21:12:25 <elliott> so which was it, wiki or /list
21:12:33 <elliott> that's the only two ways anyone ever finds us
21:12:43 <Nisstyre> so, this channel is for Brainfuck, GolfScript, etc..?
21:13:03 <elliott> also the official bf joust channel
21:13:05 <elliott> ...but usually we're offtopic
21:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, we were actually talking about esolangs only 10 minutes ago or so.
21:13:11 <elliott> NihilistDandy: oh well that's just personal recruitment.
21:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> NihilistDandy, you didn't come through during the Great Channelling, did you?
21:13:55 <NihilistDandy> I think elliott dropped into #haskell and said "hey, somebody come to #esoteric"
21:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I dropped into #haskell and told them to come to here, and then I told the one guy who showed up to join #ooc-lang.
21:14:52 <Nisstyre> I got here by doing /j #brainfuck out of curiosity
21:15:13 <elliott> Nisstyre: well, you're in the right place
21:15:19 <elliott> unlike the people who somehow think freenode has religious channels...
21:15:20 <NihilistDandy> Latest comment on that 2+2=5 video: Aλγεβρα. the best part of mathematics. God i adore it.
21:15:40 <newsham> #esoteric is like the only place #haskell isn't considered esoteric.
21:15:43 <monqy> i remember the guy who thought this was a hiphop channel but i forget his name
21:16:04 <elliott> newsham: i would say that the top tier intellectuals of #haskell are #esoteric quality :D
21:16:11 <elliott> unlike all those terrible _practical_ folk
21:16:26 <NihilistDandy> monqy: Three people in the last 24 hours seem to have thought it's some kind of tech support channel
21:16:31 <elliott> oerjan became so top-tier he miraculously stopped being in #haskell any more, he was just that #esoteric
21:16:41 <Nisstyre> elliott: surprising amount of people in #python are Schemers/Haskellers
21:16:50 <elliott> Nisstyre: you may be interested in our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:16:59 <Nisstyre> and occasionally MLers and Ocamlers
21:17:07 <elliott> yeah, there's a lot of people in #python who are there because of... bad life decisions i guess?
21:17:13 <elliott> rather than innate character flaws such as enjoying python
21:17:21 <Nisstyre> NihilistDandy: no, PHP's not a language
21:17:26 <newsham> elliott: seems like they'd rather join #coq though ;-)
21:17:31 <NihilistDandy> Nisstyre: It's a reference to an earlier conversation
21:17:40 <elliott> newsham: better than those ruffians in #agda
21:17:50 <elliott> NihilistDandy: [asterisk]trolling session
21:18:09 <newsham> #python has got to be the least useful channel on all of ircdom
21:18:32 <Nisstyre> it's too fascist about staying on topic
21:18:41 <elliott> fifteen people who don't know the answer
21:18:43 <elliott> waste five hours of your time
21:18:47 <newsham> nihil: they talk about how stupid whatever question was just asked is
21:18:48 <elliott> by trying to get the source code to your entire project
21:18:54 <elliott> then they tell you to completely restructure and write everything
21:18:56 <Nisstyre> elliott: #ubuntu is the same way
21:18:59 <elliott> because they don't know how to solve your problem
21:19:02 <Nisstyre> and part of the reason I switched to arch
21:19:12 <elliott> Nisstyre: my experience with #ubuntu is that it's so high-traffic you literally never get a response.
21:19:17 <elliott> unless someone just pipes ubottu at you unjustifiably
21:19:32 <elliott> no but theres a ##programming
21:19:44 <Nisstyre> and it's a pretty boring channel
21:19:46 <elliott> Nisstyre: also, you could have just switched to Debian :-) ...although #debian isn't that good either
21:19:55 <elliott> although it _is_ unofficial, IIRC, maybe it's actually ##debian
21:20:00 <elliott> the official Debian is on OFTC
21:20:01 <Nisstyre> elliott: well I can't even remember why I decided to try Arch now
21:20:07 <elliott> NihilistDandy: full of Gentoo users, I'd presume, so... "yeah"
21:20:10 <Nisstyre> I think it was just on someone's recommendation
21:21:18 <elliott> yeah i think #ubuntu is objectively the least helpful channel on irc
21:21:21 -!- variable has left ("I found 1 in /dev/zero").
21:21:38 <monqy> I've never been in any of these channels
21:21:43 <Nisstyre> NihilistDandy: it's full of this guy http://www.filehurricane.com/photos/7162007115229PM_ricer_10.jpg
21:21:51 <elliott> monqy: go to ##php its like going to a zoo
21:22:00 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:22:11 <Nisstyre> elliott: using php is like going to a zoo
21:22:19 <elliott> oblig. http://funroll-loops.info/
21:22:20 <Nisstyre> a zoo where all of the animals are in the same cage
21:22:28 <Nisstyre> (aka one massive namespace for everything)
21:22:29 <elliott> Nisstyre: no, it's interviewing for the position of an animal at the zoo
21:22:57 <newsham> gentoo http://funroll-loops.info/computer.jpg
21:22:58 <quintopia> elliott: that is not true. i have determined that like 10% of #ubuntu users actually get answers. #plover is now the least useful.
21:23:16 <NihilistDandy> Hey, now, you can't blame the PHP users. They lack the higher cognitive functions to operate as we do.~
21:23:20 <quintopia> since there are only four people there counting me, and i haven't gotten an answer to the question i've asked three times now
21:23:33 <Nisstyre> you only get an answer if your problem is something like "I accidentally removed the gnome panel how do i get it back???"
21:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> NihilistDandy, yeah, I feel bad for mocking elliott about it.
21:23:42 <quintopia> so it's not like there's too much traffic for people to see my question
21:24:10 <elliott> starting on php when i was eight years old is like
21:24:11 <pikhq_> Man, CVS is *so freaking bad*...
21:24:15 <elliott> those documentaries about ELEVEN YEAR OLD CHAIN SMOKERS
21:24:22 <elliott> thats exactly what its like to grow up on php
21:24:33 <elliott> you don't know any world outside of your infestation
21:24:55 <pikhq_> I cannot believe there exists any CVS repositories still.
21:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, there should be a minimum age before you can be exposed to programming.
21:25:08 <elliott> cvs is great, it's like c++
21:25:17 <elliott> if you forget it's serious
21:25:18 <Nisstyre> replace_this_one_character_in_a_string() <- how you name php functions
21:25:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: or maybe we should just ban PHP altogether
21:25:35 <newsham> i disagree completely.. you should be able to program as early as 5yrs old, but you shouldnt be allowed to use a computer until you're 12.
21:25:38 <NihilistDandy> I thought it had gone the way of the dinosaurs and the Dodge Dart
21:25:45 <quintopia> hurray! i got a question answered!
21:25:46 <pikhq_> git cvsimport is pretty much the only way to make it usable.
21:25:50 <elliott> newsham: reminds me of that eler strip...
21:26:19 <pikhq_> Likewise, git-svn is the only way to make Subversion usable.
21:26:25 <elliott> newsham: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/wp-content/images/ep032.jpg
21:26:27 <elliott> newsham: pretend this loads.
21:26:42 <pikhq_> It probably doesn't help that I've only started to understand *any* version control system after figuring out Git.
21:26:55 <pikhq_> The various distributed VCSs make sense.
21:26:55 <elliott> oh, over two years since eler updated
21:27:17 <elliott> (over four since the last _real_ update)
21:27:17 <newsham> can you pretend to describe it?
21:27:18 <monqy> im reading http://esolangs.org/wiki/D1ffe7e45e now
21:27:24 <pikhq_> Non-distributed ones *literally make no sense*, and I have no idea how anyone uses them without resorting to pulling it into git.
21:27:31 <elliott> monqy: should i do a world-famous dramatic reading is it required...
21:27:32 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: I prefer git, but hg's alright.
21:27:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: which prophec
21:27:46 <monqy> Its command set is an expansion of BrainFuck.
21:27:56 <pikhq_> elliott: The differences are slight, I agree.
21:28:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the one that it gets updated in December 2012, and the shock brings the net down,
21:28:13 <NihilistDandy> http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/git-vs-mercurial/
21:28:14 <pikhq_> elliott: Making it not like "emacs vs. vim" but more like "emacs vs. xemacs". :P
21:28:42 <Nisstyre> so uh, I met be getting paid to write php. I'm not sure if the disgust I'll feel every second is worth the money.
21:28:42 <elliott> pikhq_: and either side you take youre still advocating for a system whose central idea is "lets just store the entire tree on every commit and compress it if it gets too much"
21:28:52 <elliott> so like "version control system" more like "tree list system"
21:29:01 <elliott> Nisstyre: no. homelessness is better.
21:29:23 <Nisstyre> elliott: maybe I can write a php code generator in Haskell
21:29:31 <elliott> everyone loves capitalising brainfuck
21:29:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Well, yes, the model is more "Let's implement a filesystem that's amenable to versioning" than "Let's implement a version control system".
21:29:45 <elliott> Nisstyre: just do ghc core -> php
21:29:48 <elliott> Nisstyre: it'll be slow as fuck, but, ...
21:30:09 <elliott> failed at the capitalisation
21:30:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there is universal agreement on that, the only disagreement is when its the first word in a sentence
21:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> There is no evidence beyond a single word in the readme that you're right, and you're being idiotically pedantic about it.
21:30:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: er, you realise that there has never been any dispute about this?
21:31:05 <elliott> the only argument i had with ais was about first-sentence positioning.
21:31:14 <elliott> we agree unanimously that its first-letter uncapsed in the middle of a sentence.
21:31:21 <elliott> there is absolutely no evidence in the original distribution to suggest otherwise whatsoever.
21:31:29 <elliott> and a few pieces of evidence in favour.
21:31:40 <monqy> Equivalent of BrainFuck [-]
21:32:02 <monqy> Although d1ffe7e45e has all the commands that BrainFuck does, the language may or may not be able to achieve an Arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point so it is difficult to determine whether or not it is Turing-complete.
21:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, in any case, 'Brainfuck' is well within the bounds of acceptability; 'BrainFuck' is not.
21:32:48 <pikhq_> elliott: And, of course, the only really fundamentally important and *so absurdly better* bit about git/hg/etc. is that they're distributed. This is what they get right that everything else does not.
21:32:49 <elliott> yeah but if youre gonna brick peoples heads in for capitalisation
21:32:52 <elliott> its pretty ironic to get it wrong yourself
21:33:12 <elliott> pikhq_: whats your excuse for not using darcs
21:33:24 <elliott> Nisstyre: you're not capitalising your statements, you're already outside the bounds of "standard" written english
21:33:45 <elliott> <Nisstyre> I am laughing out loud.
21:33:48 <elliott> <Nisstyre> elliott: maybe I can write a php code generator in Haskell
21:33:59 <elliott> <Nisstyre> Elliott, perhaps I can write a generator for PHP code in the Haskell language.
21:34:05 <elliott> <Nisstyre> so uh, I met be getting paid to write php. I'm not sure if the disgust I'll feel every second is worth the money.
21:34:12 <elliott> <Nisstyre> It is possible that I am going to be paid to write PHP code. [...]
21:34:13 <monqy> the language defined by which haskell specification
21:34:41 <Nisstyre> monqy: the Glasgow Haskell Compiler.
21:34:59 <Nisstyre> whatever revision is the latest
21:35:03 <pikhq_> Nisstyre: That's not a spec, that's an implementation of a spec.
21:37:05 <elliott> its great to be last nite cuz when youre last nite everythings so awesome
21:37:18 <Sgeo_> I think the mathematical disproof that I'm thinking might work is a bit as shaky as "Can God make a rock..." except applied to omniscience. Like asking God to make 1+1=3, but knowledge-wise
21:37:43 <monqy> its easier to disprove things when you throw omnipotence into the mix
21:38:02 <Nisstyre> Sgeo_: have you ever heard of theological noncognitivism?
21:38:30 <Nisstyre> no, theological noncognitivism
21:38:35 <elliott> "Theological noncognitivism is the argument that religious language, and specifically words like "god", are not cognitively meaningful."
21:38:46 <Nisstyre> elliott: it's more or less true
21:38:49 <elliott> you instantly win every argument because they use words you don't like
21:38:59 <Nisstyre> it doesn't really have any primary attributes that you can use to describe it
21:39:08 <elliott> yeah but its kind of like saying "Russell's set" doesn't mean antyhing
21:39:12 <elliott> just because it's paradoxical
21:39:23 <Sgeo_> Nisstyre, I guess to an extent, I agree, since unless you define "God", it's meaningless to have a discussion. Any two people will have two or more different ideas about what God is.
21:39:25 <elliott> and therefore Russell's paradox isn't real
21:39:25 <Nisstyre> you can only define it in terms of "God isn't this, or God is like this"
21:39:50 <Nisstyre> you can't debate something where you have a completely different idea of what the subject is
21:40:14 <NihilistDandy> Well, considering that the definition of God seems to be a moving target when the subject of proof or disproof comes up, it seems like a futile effort
21:40:59 <Sgeo_> Which is why any disproof should contain a description of what sort of God is disproved.
21:41:24 <elliott> god cant exist wnhere god=onkey: proof: if evoluations is true then why monkeys??
21:41:57 <Nisstyre> it can't literally be anything you want
21:42:09 <Sgeo_> NihilistDandy, does Zeus count as a god?
21:42:10 <Nisstyre> "I believe that God is really all of the whales in the ocean"
21:42:30 <elliott> Nisstyre: thats a rather useless definition
21:42:31 <NihilistDandy> If you can disprove one god, I don't see why you couldn't disprove them all.
21:42:43 <monqy> useless definitions of god are best definitions of god
21:42:43 <Sgeo_> Do sufficiently advanced aliens count as gods? Do the Nox count as gods? Does Q count as a god?
21:42:44 <elliott> in that, you might as well have a word fodijg, which means nothing.
21:42:58 <NihilistDandy> Nisstyre: A category can be anything you want, it still satisfies basic rules.
21:43:21 <Nisstyre> NihilistDandy: okay, it has to be un-observable
21:43:38 <Nisstyre> which my definition of whales wouldn't fall under
21:43:38 <Sgeo_> Are the Goa'uld gods? Are the Ori? (Not too keen on SG-1's ever-changing definition of "god", which in order to exclude the Ori, IMO, requires "good")
21:43:40 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo_: First we have to define first principles, then we can decide what qualifies. :D
21:44:54 <Sgeo_> Nisstyre, the God of Abaham, Isaac, and Jacob is observable when it wants to be observable...
21:45:01 <Nisstyre> They all have in common the fact we don't know how they work NihilistDandy
21:45:22 <NihilistDandy> Nisstyre: People didn't know how groups worked until they tried. :/
21:45:54 <NihilistDandy> Benevolence, for instance, is not an axiom of godhood. There are evil (or at least dickish) gods in mythology.
21:45:54 <Sgeo_> Nisstyre, God speaking to Moses is something that Moses is capable of noticing
21:46:17 <oerjan> <elliott> LMAO Aλγεβρα <-- no one told them it's arabic, not greek?
21:46:35 <elliott> the most artistic of sciences
21:46:47 <monqy> no.1 axiom of gods: theres no axioms of gods
21:47:07 <NihilistDandy> monqy: Fight Club is not a well-defined mathematical object.
21:50:35 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:51:31 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:52:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I go to clean up the shrapnel from a teabag and you're discussing the definition of god out of nowhere.
21:52:50 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I go to clean up the shrapnel from a teabag and you're discussing the definition of god out of nowhere.
21:52:52 <HackEgo> 477) <Phantom_Hoover> I go to clean up the shrapnel from a teabag and you're discussing the definition of god out of nowhere.
22:01:56 <Sgeo_> "So it follows that to proove the existence or necessity of the number one will be to prove the existence of God."
22:01:59 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lD4Ze9KtHI
22:02:53 <elliott> re you searching for youtube vieos just so you ancomment on them
22:03:04 <Sgeo_> (Basically, he used the Bible to say "God can be identified with 1", and I think is running with it... despite previously having claimed that this won't require the viewer to trust the Bible as an authority)
22:03:18 <Sgeo_> elliott, no, not just so I can comment
22:03:18 <monqy> this music isnt classy enough
22:04:01 <elliott> play him off keyboard cat started playing in another cat as it started
22:04:20 <elliott> @TheDcac i didnt say if you hated him i just said why dont you want him to exist?
22:04:20 <monqy> this proof is boring
22:04:21 <elliott> besides half of what we believe in science is an educated guess anyway
22:04:21 <oerjan> monqy: not enough inheritance?
22:04:33 <elliott> http://www.walkinginfreedom.blogspot.com/
22:08:44 <monqy> im going to look at the d1ffe7e45e interpreter
22:09:08 <monqy> code.txt "your code goes here"
22:09:46 <elliott> you invent your own interp
22:09:56 <monqy> The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells.
22:11:08 <elliott> `quote "The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells." --d1ffe7e45e interpreter
22:11:17 <elliott> `addquote <d1ffe7e45e interpreter> The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells.
22:11:18 <HackEgo> 478) <d1ffe7e45e interpreter> The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells.
22:12:45 <monqy> the source code still has a bunch of functions left in from the pogo interpreter
22:12:57 <monqy> like bottles and masculinity
22:13:10 <elliott> The problem was posed by John McCarthy as follows. We pick two numbers a and b, so that a>=b and both numbers are within the range [2,99]. We give Mr.P the product a*b and give Mr.S the sum a+b. The following dialog takes place:
22:13:10 <elliott> Mr.P: I don't know the numbers
22:13:10 <elliott> Mr.S: I knew you didn't know. I don't know either
22:13:11 <elliott> Mr.P: Now I know the numbers
22:14:27 -!- eitan_ has joined.
22:14:46 -!- eitan_ has changed nick to variable.
22:15:26 <elliott> oh erm what is this mail i have received
22:16:11 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:18 <monqy> female enhancement
22:16:23 -!- variable has joined.
22:16:49 <elliott> gmail why are you being slow
22:16:55 <elliott> im going to slit your throat and eat your blood-- thanks for being fast
22:17:03 <elliott> oh now youre not loading the mail
22:17:06 <elliott> ill slit your throat and eat your bl
22:18:04 <monqy> firefox 5 whatsnew screen has a picture of windows im not using windows. it also asked me if i wanted to make firefox my default browser. how rude
22:18:12 <monqy> whats an "awesome bar"
22:18:18 <monqy> I don't seem to have one
22:18:47 <elliott> if its insufficiently awesome beat your head against a wall until it is
22:18:49 <monqy> oh it's just the "location bar"
22:19:58 <monqy> yeah i usually use chromium
22:20:06 <monqy> but i also have firefox for reasosn
22:20:28 <monqy> http://support.mozilla.com/media/img/wiki/morehelp.nurse.png
22:23:24 <monqy> my gmail is fast...
22:27:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:42:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:52:54 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:00:49 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:04:13 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:08:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: MigoMipo = copumpkin = variable = elliott = hagb4rd.
23:10:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:10:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
23:10:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:12:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you're just saying that to hide the fact that they are all your sockpuppets
23:12:36 -!- variable has joined.
23:19:46 <quintopia> or to hide the fact that it was your fault no one spoke in this channel for over half an hour
23:20:02 <zzo38> Now I invented the second pokemon card puzzle, which is also "win this turn". Maybe the third one will then, instead, be "maximize your chances of winning".
23:22:33 <zzo38> Even more goals can be added in files written in the future.
23:23:26 <zzo38> Or some with special rules during the game (Pokemon Card GB2 has some opponents who play with a special rule)
23:26:49 <pikhq_> Well, that's fun. musl now seems to have hit a compile bug.
23:33:14 <zzo38> Try to win at these two games: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 and http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.2
23:33:56 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:24 <NihilistDandy> zzo38: I THROW THE CARDS ON THE FLOOR AND CALL THE OTHER KID A BITCH
23:34:38 -!- variable has joined.
23:35:02 <HackEgo> 161) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
23:35:20 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Calling your opponent a bitch and stuff isn't going to help you to win the game. Especially since your opponent will not even get a turn.
23:35:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19033
23:38:00 <zzo38> Can you find the proper way to win?
23:39:19 <Sgeo_> "I think we're about due for an album anyway."
23:40:10 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, someone on Reddit
23:40:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/ie7s5/hussie_is_not_working_on_the_eoa_but_hes_making/c231wtz
23:45:04 <Sgeo_> ...we JUST HAD 2 albums released
23:45:28 <Sgeo_> End Of Act 5 is coming sometime soon, presumably
23:51:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).