←2012-02-02 2012-02-03 2012-02-04→ ↑2012 ↑all
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02:31:34 <zzo38> I think I have figured out how to make a monad from any contravariant functor
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02:44:42 <Sgeo> Opened up the comp, pushed the HD in (and it was quite easy and went in rather far), so I'll see if that fixes it
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05:48:06 <pikhq> Huh. Verisign breach of unknown degree.
05:48:52 <pikhq> The security breach happened *2 years ago* but was only reported to the public *today*, courtesy of Verisign management being horribly fucked up.
05:49:08 <pikhq> There's a chance it extended to their SSL certs.
06:31:38 <zzo38> I think, I have managed to make up the monad from any contravariant functor, a generalization of what is done in the "infinite-search" package.
06:33:23 <zzo38> They use (a -> Bool) -> a while I have used f a -> a where f is contravariant
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12:20:57 <ais523> idiot spambot isn't even getting its links write
12:20:58 <ais523> *right
12:21:01 <ais523> "http:\\"
12:23:47 <fizzie> //:dʇʇɥ -- that's what weblinks look like in Australia.
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12:44:30 <Jafet> Woah how did you make that inverted colon
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12:54:07 <Taneb> Hello
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13:08:10 <Taneb> brb
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13:08:49 <Taneb> Back
13:09:50 <fizzie> Eats, shoots and leaves.
13:10:20 <Taneb> That's pandas, you fool, not Hexhamites
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13:10:40 <fizzie> You never know about Hexhamites.
13:10:56 <Taneb> What esolang is the topic in now?
13:10:57 <fizzie> Also I recently checked the weather in Hexham, since it was the first UK location that came to mind.
13:11:05 <Taneb> Heh
13:11:14 <fizzie> It loogs Glassy to me.
13:11:19 <Taneb> Oh dear
13:11:45 <fizzie> The {M[m bit especially.
13:12:02 <Taneb> Oh, I thought you were talking about the weather
13:14:35 <fizzie> The M.m function does (_o)O! -- that is, construct an O object and bind _o to it -- followed by "blah"(_o)o.? -- so "blah", on the stack, get the O.o method from _o, then run it.
13:15:06 <Taneb> O.o outputs a string?
13:15:13 <fizzie> Yes.
13:15:36 <Taneb> I reckon, if I could use it, Glass would be my favourite esolang
13:15:47 <Taneb> Also, you're fizzie! I was meaning to ask you something!
13:16:04 <Taneb> Where does fungot's "fnord" come from?
13:16:04 <fungot> Taneb: yeah, riastradh is dynamic wind. why doesn't it expand then?
13:16:20 <fizzie> If I'm not mistaken, though, the program could have ben written by using a local variable 'o', as {M[moO!"blah"oo.?]} -- that'd be a bit more compact.
13:16:45 <fizzie> It's the Discordians' fnord.
13:16:51 <Taneb> Okay
13:17:20 <Taneb> I'm not very good at religions
13:18:16 <fizzie> It's a bit of a misuse in that the fnords should be there in-between the "content" part of the sentence, but the way fungot does it replaces the "unknown" word by it.
13:18:16 <fungot> fizzie: i only get one t!
13:18:38 <Taneb> ^style
13:18:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:18:43 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would look pretty silly. And remind people of elliott.
13:18:43 <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice, for a simple language can be used
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13:19:24 <Taneb> I didn't know I had the keyboard shortcut...
13:19:56 <fizzie> Do you know the old "join #2,000 to celebrate the millennium" joke?
13:20:03 <Taneb> No I do not
13:20:38 <fizzie> It's an IRC peculiarity; "JOIN #a,#b,#c" can be used to join multiple channels at once, while "JOIN 0" in fact parts all channels.
13:20:52 <fizzie> So in quite many clients "/join #2,000" will end up parting from all channels.
13:21:00 <fizzie> (In some, it joins #2 and #000 instead.)
13:21:36 <fizzie> It's a bit like the equally old "use /disco to turn on the lights" joke.
13:22:06 <fizzie> (Many clients auto-complete that to a /disconnect.)
13:22:17 <Taneb> Also, fungot seems rather condescending of elliott
13:22:18 <fungot> Taneb: now everything is screwed up a bit on where you are coding. it just exposes you to often irrelevant low-level details.
13:22:48 <fizzie> fungot holds no respect for us meat-sacks in general.
13:22:49 <fungot> fizzie: more like java) perl ml modules that define two different types of source code
13:22:58 <itidus21> fungot
13:22:58 <fungot> itidus21: i don't know until where it should
13:23:12 <itidus21> fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot
13:23:12 <fungot> itidus21: you would have otherwise written in scheme
13:24:29 <Taneb> !addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:29 <fungot> Taneb: just dig out some snippets of code in the wrapper. maybe for these people: it lets me name things fnord, like yours
13:24:41 <Taneb> Wait, it's ^
13:24:48 <Taneb> ^addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:52 <Taneb> No, that's fungot
13:24:52 <fungot> Taneb: because i'm just confused
13:24:55 <Taneb> Aaarhg!
13:25:04 <Taneb> `?
13:25:08 <Taneb> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:25:08 <fungot> Taneb: when the value is x. if it loses fnord, then? :p
13:25:18 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/: Is a directory
13:25:35 <Taneb> `ls bin
13:25:39 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ No \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ searchlog \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ units \ url
13:25:48 <Taneb> `pastequotes
13:25:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29440
13:26:12 <HackEgo> 807) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:26:49 <fizzie> Funny reply for `? there.
13:26:58 <Taneb> It took too many tries to add that quote. I tried /, !, and ^ before getting it right
13:27:32 <fizzie> `? fungot
13:27:32 <fungot> fizzie: aha... mediawiki takes care of such odd cases. so i sad down and wrote 30 lines of c
13:27:36 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
13:27:45 <Taneb> `? Ngevd
13:27:48 <HackEgo> ​JbQ.3IG.m-l6c.'\..=q)^..3.X..7mB3^d.9Z.).a...GlӟM;ew4?쮊8,..^J9;Y4.sX\bj1@'h\rNX}8'/j_-..IΕ.ߎd;.6'_mE.c@K7. \ X.g2&d3.ųM.rJl]]C..d୛t{*bttٍ#j.UZU"V`N_rlI.ZY#. \ ]v6}3rP&n.(7Ns.8evi^jd |..Io<{.+.n`.&7"w.˷$".p;P.%VއvA..wx*PQ6dB^1}u㯗c.
13:28:23 <fizzie> I like the expression "to sad down". (Unless it's just a typo for 'sat'.)
13:28:46 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I believe it's more likely to be the latter
13:29:05 <fizzie> Sadding down is an appropriate prelude for writing some C.
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15:45:19 <pikhq_> Bleh. School's actually open today.
15:45:28 <pikhq_> Not that I'm going in.
15:45:41 <ion> How’s the weather in there?
15:49:31 <pikhq_> Blizzard.
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16:31:44 <Taneb> Hello!
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17:45:15 <Gregor> Wow, Glass in the /topic.
17:47:54 <fizzie> Gregor: Am I right that it could be the more compact {M[moO!"...."oo.?]} too?
17:48:23 <Gregor> !glass {M[moO!"Let's find out!"oo.?]}
17:48:25 <EgoBot> Let's find out!
17:48:28 <Gregor> ^^
17:48:54 <Gregor> Variables that start with lower-case letters are class variables, so it's namespace pollution is all.
17:49:07 <Gregor> (IIRC)
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17:51:37 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth; -- I am trying to think of a kind of ephemeris software in Haskell........
17:52:28 <zzo38> Oops!
17:52:55 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = FixedSphericalCoordinates (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth;
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17:53:51 <zzo38> Any ideas?
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17:57:08 <hagb4rd> wtf is ephemersis
17:57:16 <hagb4rd> oh
17:57:31 <zzo38> Ephemeris is a way to figure out position of planets, sun, moon, etc
17:57:47 <zzo38> By using calculation instead of having to do observation
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18:03:31 <hagb4rd> do you _believe_ the the celectial bodies affect our lifes in some way?
18:04:14 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Mostly the sun and moon; the others wouldn't do much. But I don't believe they affect our lives in the way that astrologers say they do; they are just using superstitious stuff.
18:04:30 <hagb4rd> hehe.. is see
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18:05:25 <hagb4rd> so why that interest in astrology? is just a technical challange?
18:05:45 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure that's just it.
18:06:02 <zzo38> Yes, as well as the things in common to astrology with astronomy, and some things are useful in both even if not common in either, I suppose.
18:09:55 <zzo38> When doing some kinds of calculation (including calendars), conventions of both astrology and astronomy can be useful; in addition, astrology does have some artistic uses even though divination doesn't work. So, functions of ephemeris can be useful for astronomy as well; and I know about their conventions such as right ascensions, declination, hour angle, etc.
18:11:17 <zzo38> Someone once wrote a article about astrology for astronomers. They tell how the conventions are similar and differences, and aspects, and so on. In my opinion, it is useful to combine astrology, astronomy, and calendar date/time stuff, into one program, since all three functions can be used together.
18:13:10 <hagb4rd> sure. there is a common determinator between both of them
18:14:30 <hagb4rd> 'though im not sure if between is the correct proposition
18:15:41 <hagb4rd> there are things known and unknown.. and in between is hagb4rds ignorance
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18:36:45 <Gregor> I think the worst thing about astrology is that the existence of the pseudoscience prevents us from investigating the social science of actual connections between birthdates and personalities, which would naturally stem from the interaction between environment and mating behavior of any animals with a short estrous cycle (e.g. humans).
18:37:35 <zzo38> Gregor: People can do it if they want to! But the exist does make people argue about it probably; still, some people can try to do so.
18:40:38 <zzo38> Do *you* have ideas how to do so more specifically, anyways??
18:41:54 <hagb4rd> i dunno.. guess its like tarot. it helps us to reflect on ourselfs
18:42:49 <pikhq_> Aaah, tarot. European card games used for divination.
18:43:31 <zzo38> hadb4rd: Well, yes, you can reflect on ourselves using various divinatory methods (but not for divination). You probably mean cartomancy rather than tarot; tarot is simply a deck of cards. Psychological cartomancy uses a tarot deck with more art than ordinary decks; you could probably find an article about that.
18:43:56 <hagb4rd> yea, thats i mean
18:44:01 <hagb4rd> +what
18:46:05 <zzo38> I do know a few games involving tarot cards, including a few modern ones, and one which uses icehouse pyraminds in addition to the cards.
18:46:51 <hagb4rd> i was studying crowley for a while
18:47:54 <hagb4rd> guess the problem bout science and axioms is it answers how but not why
18:48:08 <hagb4rd> +its
18:48:32 <zzo38> Science can answer why to a limited extent. Kind of.
18:48:55 <zzo38> Of course there are problems with science but it is the best we have.
18:49:45 <hagb4rd> to quote s.o. i do not know: problems are hidden opportunities ;)
18:50:07 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Yes, that too! Is good.
18:51:09 <zzo38> One example of artistic use for astrology is someone made up a time of birth for Harry Potter. (Of course it is still arbitrary like many arts but at least they have something to do.)
18:57:18 <Sgeo> The best way to reflect yourself is with a mirror.
18:58:27 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I agree
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20:17:47 <oerjan> > reverse "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:17:48 <lambdabot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-...
20:17:54 <oerjan> fff
20:17:57 <oerjan> ^rev test
20:17:57 <fungot> tset
20:18:03 <oerjan> > rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `rev'
20:18:08 <oerjan> ^rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:08 <fungot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille"
20:18:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0>:#,_@.
20:18:34 <oerjan> argh
20:18:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
20:19:03 <zzo38> Can you find the mistake in this program? http://sprunge.us/gbUF
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20:30:44 <oerjan> `welcome wanham
20:30:49 <HackEgo> wanham: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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20:35:12 <oerjan> so he made it more official http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=902
20:43:33 <fizzie> Is this just his second $100k thing? Funny how he's already "that guy who always offers $100k for unlikely things".
20:43:53 <oerjan> actually the first one was $200k
20:44:13 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, "large amount of money" anyways.
20:45:02 <oerjan> i'd suppose gil kalai suggested it in jest, anyway :P
20:45:33 <fizzie> (In not-so-related news, no distribution-related wisdom from the CoaP forum, but 12 views of which only 2 are mine, anyway.)
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20:47:34 <oerjan> make that 13, or something
20:52:07 <oerjan> fizzie: do you have the full sequence of results saved? to check if "every 10 seconds" matters, you might try to graph them in order retrieved or something...
20:53:16 <fizzie> Sure; I guess I'll try that too, when I get to a real computer.
20:54:23 <oerjan> or maybe check if the ratios change much in subintervals
20:55:19 <fizzie> Also a goodie.
20:56:11 <fizzie> I think the same one was quite consistently 1.3 times the mean during the run. But that's just a feeling.
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21:06:50 <Sgeo> What was the first?
21:06:56 <Sgeo> The first prize thing
21:07:48 <fizzie> Was it that P=NP proof?
21:07:49 <oerjan> to vinay deolalikar in case his P != NP proof turned out to be correct / repairable
21:08:14 <oerjan> which quickly started looking rather unlikely
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21:08:39 <Taneb> Hello!
21:08:43 <oerjan> but hi!
21:09:20 <fizzie> oerjan: If only they'd prove P != NP, then we'd finally know that N != 1.
21:09:51 <Taneb> The topic is making me read backwards
21:09:55 * oerjan swats fizzie -----###
21:10:07 <oerjan> doog yrev :benaT
21:10:23 <Taneb> !befunge 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:10:24 <EgoBot> 48 Unsupported instruction 'Y' (0x59) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'A' (0x41) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'W' (0x57) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 121 Unsupported instruction 'E' (0x45) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'L' (0x4c) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'B' (0x42) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'I' (0x49) (maybe not
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21:10:52 <Taneb> Stringmode doesn't seem to work
21:10:52 <oerjan> wat
21:10:54 <fizzie> Oh, it's been Befungized. (Or is that over 80 characters? Funge-98ized in that case.)
21:11:01 <Taneb> !befunge98 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:11:02 <EgoBot> elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.
21:11:10 <fizzie> I see it is.
21:11:19 <oerjan> oh right
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21:12:21 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz
21:12:25 <HackEgo> MoALTz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:12:45 <MoALTz> *nod*
21:13:06 <oerjan> and in a rare moment of on-topicness, too!
21:13:24 <Taneb> Can I return things to normal?
21:13:48 <oerjan> by "normal" you mean "talking about everything except esolangs", right?
21:13:51 <Taneb> Yes
21:13:58 <oerjan> you may.
21:14:06 <Taneb> My gran's in hospital
21:14:07 <fizzie> oerjan: So how're things in the *real* esoteric programming channel that you're spying for? Are they all jubilous for our recent... quietudiness?
21:14:20 <oerjan> wat
21:14:46 * oerjan is a single-channel person
21:14:56 <Taneb> So, new esolang
21:15:56 <oerjan> well, i guess it beats hospital talk.
21:16:07 <Taneb> It's a CA, so can someone experienced with ALPACA help me?
21:16:07 <fizzie> It might still be about that.
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21:16:35 <fizzie> We haven't heard details. Maybe it's a hospitals-and-grandmothers-themed CA.
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21:17:12 <oerjan> i don't consider myself "experienced" with ALPACA, although i've read the spec once, i guess
21:17:24 <Taneb> Nah, it's falling down massive shafts based
21:18:06 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like it'd exclude hospitals, almost the opposite.
21:18:18 <Taneb> It doesn't mention hospitals
21:18:20 <Taneb> Or grandmothers
21:18:31 <fizzie> Okay then.
21:19:30 * oerjan is reminded of the danish "Riget" series (which he's never seen, but which an old student friend loved)
21:19:42 <oerjan> i believe it had both hospitals and shafts.
21:20:00 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure about the shafts.
21:21:47 * oerjan confirms the shafts using google
21:23:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingdom_(TV_miniseries)
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21:28:26 <bbear> hello
21:28:38 <oerjan> `welcome bbear
21:28:41 <HackEgo> bbear: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:30:12 <bbear> I wanted to know :: do you know if it would ever be possible to program a computer with an infinite amount of memory ?
21:30:37 <oerjan> programming is easy. getting one on the other hand...
21:31:01 <Taneb> bbear, in the real world, it is impossible to create a computer with infinite memory
21:31:30 <bbear> Taneb, we had a discussion about this on ##c
21:32:03 <bbear> but a question slightly different would be if ever such a computer exist, would it be possible to program with it ? Would the « programming » word would have a sense ?
21:32:11 <Taneb> Ah, yes
21:32:21 <Taneb> It would definitely be possible to program with it
21:32:47 <fizzie> oerjan: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mezzoseq.png -- Does that look periodic to you? It looks periodic to me.
21:33:32 <oerjan> indeed
21:33:50 <fizzie> (It's the ten thousand visits on the X axis, with the small differences in Y axis giving the index of which thing came out. I've just wrapped it into ten lines to make it a bit more clearer.)
21:35:22 <fizzie> Maybe I should permute the indices a bit so that it'd look even more periodic.
21:36:02 <oerjan> do that.
21:37:29 <oerjan> from that, one _might_ suspect the script is keeping a counter...
21:38:23 <Taneb> bbear, with something like brainfuck, you could do [+>], which would use up all the memory after an infinite amount of time
21:38:28 <oerjan> if so, the irregularities would be others looking at the page simultaneously.
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21:38:36 <bbear> Can you imagine a language to program games ?
21:38:42 <fizzie> Well, *now* it is very periodic indeed. (Same URL.)
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21:39:31 <Taneb> bbear, you could (if you really want to) program games in brainfuck, assuming you didn't care about graphics
21:39:35 <bbear> Taneb, yeah... I was guessing that an infinite memory could make the system unstable because parts of the system could be uncontrolable in a finite time.
21:39:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Doesn't immediately explain why one value would be biased over the others, though.
21:39:45 <bbear> But here we are talking about every language.
21:39:54 <bbear> I mean i want to free my imagination.
21:40:03 <Taneb> bbear, any part of the system you have accessed, you can access again in finite time
21:40:16 <oerjan> fizzie: hm it looks like it relatively frequently jumps back in the sequence. was your 10 sec retrieval very regular or did you take many breaks?
21:41:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't suppose you kept the datestamps? :D
21:42:05 <fizzie> oerjan: The file timestamps are probably still there; but I didn't take any breaks at all.
21:42:12 <oerjan> ok.
21:43:09 <fizzie> Of course it was timed with a "sleep 10", so it's not an accurate frequency; in particular the delay between successive fetches depends on how long the fetch itself takes.
21:44:24 <oerjan> hm so if it's timestamp based, random network delay may explain the irregularities
21:45:52 <oerjan> i have a hunch the graph is not accurate enough to see how much it fetches the same twice in a row
21:47:24 <oerjan> fizzie: could you find the frequencies of the _consecutive_ pairs?
21:48:07 <oerjan> it seems that for each item, there's one particular which is most frequently given next, but the alternatives might also give information
21:48:31 <oerjan> (well that's just 2-grams, isn't it.)
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21:49:19 <oerjan> i suppose timestamps are also necessary to check
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21:50:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, there's a DMM reply.
21:50:34 <fizzie> Turns out it's time()%11.
21:50:39 <oerjan> yay
21:52:02 <fizzie> Also the "Wow!" signal, the most common duplicate, is also the one that is the longest. Presumably it has a higher likelihood of taking longer than the ten seconds required to walk backwards in the time()%11 sequence.
21:52:21 <fizzie> s/duplicate/version/
21:55:01 <oerjan> i suppose if you gave a table of frequencies, usual order in the common sequence, and page length, that should explain most of it...
21:55:38 <oerjan> the longer, the more likely to redo it. hm right.
21:57:51 <oerjan> are frequencies and length in completely the same order?
21:59:04 <oerjan> well no. i'm pretty sure the Langerhans one was shorter than the Xabadunis.
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22:00:43 <Taneb> > (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,)) 12
22:00:44 <lambdabot> 364
22:00:45 <fizzie> I don't think they were, no; just the Wow! signal one was the longest.
22:01:02 <oerjan> since removing the top two made it indistinguishable from uniform, i suppose only the two longest were long enough to overcome the natural variation.
22:01:05 <Taneb> How many things are there on the nth day of christmas
22:01:16 <Taneb> And all preceding ones
22:01:18 <oerjan> fizzie: was the second one at least second longest too?
22:01:26 <Taneb> :t (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,))
22:01:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a, Enum a) => a -> a
22:02:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Counts and byte-sizes: http://sprunge.us/QZPd
22:02:03 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:02:04 <lambdabot> [1,4,10,20,35,56,84,120,165,220,286,364]
22:02:14 <Taneb> That is likely shorter
22:02:22 <fizzie> Some correlation, but not quite the same order.
22:03:02 <fizzie> Anyway, the sequence seems to quite often step back more than one step, so if there's a bias where those skips happen, then the sequence order would also be a factor.
22:03:17 <Taneb> > (last . scanl1 (+) . scanl1 (+) . enumFromTo 1) 12
22:03:19 <lambdabot> 364
22:03:37 <oerjan> maybe it has something to do with exceeding 4096 bytes...
22:04:18 <oerjan> > sum $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:04:19 <lambdabot> 364
22:05:07 <oerjan> Taneb: btw did i mention that using null and head/tail instead of pattern matching is usually considered bad haskell style?
22:05:26 <Taneb> Probably
22:05:37 <oerjan> especially when you use the null to determine whether the head/tail is safe.
22:05:48 <fizzie> Could also have something to do with other boundaries; the standard MTU (max packet size) tends to be 1500, sometimes smaller, and there's the HTTP overhead + TCP overhead + IP overhead + whatever-is-the-network-layer overhead.
22:08:40 <fizzie> (And it might be gzipped over the HTTP wire.)
22:11:12 <oerjan> fizzie: oh hm to get redone there doesn't have to be a _large_ network delay, just enough to wrap from 0.9 seconds to 11.0 instead of 10.9
22:11:33 <oerjan> *extra delay
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22:20:10 <oerjan> Taneb: oh hm have you logged in as Ngevd since i sent those lambdabot messages?
22:20:49 <zzo38> How can we invent Haskell*#?@~ which is a new kind of group of extensions for Haskell which include many strange thing in addition to the normal things
22:21:02 <Taneb> oerjan, you sent them to Taneb
22:21:07 <oerjan> i did?
22:21:17 <Taneb> Yeah, and I cleared them because I logread them
22:21:37 <oerjan> ok then
22:22:44 <fizzie> Ohhh, and here I was thinking you thought there was probably something embarrassing in them and therefore @clear'd instead of @messages'd. (I'm not entirely sure why I thought that, since I suppose you'd just have read them privately in that case.)
22:22:45 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds like what the ghc people are doing all time *badum-tish*
22:22:51 <oerjan> *all the time
22:23:47 <zzo38> oerjan: They are but a lot of things I proposed are the things other people hate. So that is why to invent new one including things too strange for most people in #haskell even though some people in #esoteric might like it, not everyone does
22:24:13 <zzo38> Such as the -XNoEnglishKinds extension which almost everyone in #haskell channel hates
22:24:58 <Taneb> What does -XNoEnglishKinds do?
22:25:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect that if they had considered polymorphic kinds from the start, they would have used alphanumeric kind names from the start too
22:26:20 <zzo38> Taneb: Changes OpenKind back to ? and Constraint to & leaving the alphanumeric names open for custom datakinds and so on
22:26:51 <Taneb> Fancy
22:27:53 <Taneb> Of course, I don't really know enough to appreciate the significance of that
22:28:20 <oerjan> :k (->)
22:28:21 <lambdabot> ?? -> ? -> *
22:29:20 <Taneb> This, I am afraid, means nothing to me
22:29:37 <zzo38> As well as -XMoreNotation, -XImprovedNaturalNumberKinds, -XInstanceDisambiguation, -XDefaultInstances, -XInlineLLVM, -XTemplateHaskellKinds, and so on... most people hate these things
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22:30:21 <zzo38> And the new macro system as well
22:31:04 <oerjan> it means that the -> type constructor takes two arguments, the first being a boxed or unboxed type, the second being that or an unboxed tuple, and returns a boxed type.
22:31:35 <oerjan> the upshot is that you can have haskell function types that handle some unboxed values, although the functions themselves are always boxed.
22:31:46 <Taneb> What do boxed and unboxed mean in this context?
22:32:01 <Taneb> I feel kinda stupid at the moment
22:32:16 <oerjan> boxed is the usual kind of haskell value, implemented as a pointer to a lazy thunk
22:32:16 <Taneb> For that matter, what does tuple mean in this context?
22:33:36 <oerjan> unboxed is a value represented without pointers and laziness, like a sequence of bytes in any other language
22:33:57 <Taneb> Okay, that makes sense
22:34:08 <Taneb> Seems the wrong way round to me?
22:34:09 <oerjan> ghc uses that internally for efficiency
22:34:43 <oerjan> and an unboxed tuple is a tuple of several unboxed values, which can only be returned from functions, not passed into them.
22:35:27 <oerjan> (the values of an unboxed tuple may end up being put directly on the stack or in registers)
22:35:41 <oerjan> @src IO
22:35:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
22:35:50 <zzo38> As well as -XCompatibility703, -XNoParameterTypeClasses, -XCombinedInstances, -XNoUnicode, -XExtendedOperatorNames, and so on
22:35:52 <oerjan> sadly @src has removed that stuff
22:36:40 <Taneb> So, because functions are boxed, they can flit about in the mind of the haskell program without being in a specific place in memory
22:36:58 <Taneb> But can simultaneously look at bits of memory and other things flitting about
22:37:26 <oerjan> Taneb: unboxed things can be copied of course, like in C...
22:37:29 <oerjan> @src Int
22:37:29 <lambdabot> data Int = I# Int#
22:37:52 <oerjan> an example there: Int is implemented as a datatype wrapping an unboxed Int#
22:38:00 <zzo38> I don't know how you call the Haskell that I proposed or how to change GHC or anything like that; write a new one; I don't know how do you know?
22:38:26 <oerjan> ghc's optimizer may frequently remove the entire data wrapping, and handle words in memory instead
22:38:35 <Taneb> Wasn't elliott working on a Haskell Compiler a while back?
22:39:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is a good idea.
22:39:28 <oerjan> (well of course a data type is also implemented in memory, but with all that laziness support included
22:39:31 <oerjan> )
22:40:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't quite remember.
22:40:35 <Taneb> He was trying to think of a name because Hexham Haskell Compiler looked stupid?
22:41:19 <oerjan> anyway, standard haskell has only one base kind * which is boxed types, while ghc adds a heap of others for supporting unboxed things.
22:41:39 <zzo38> And my proposal added two more + and &
22:42:00 <Taneb> What would they be?
22:42:11 <oerjan> and other haskellers already added & except with the name Constraint
22:42:24 <zzo38> + for natural number types and & is what is now called Constraint
22:43:10 <zzo38> Except mine is different where + is a subkind of * which now means that the built-in type (->) is the type of array with a fixed number of elements.
22:45:12 <zzo38> Another idea is a new kind of n+k patterns (different from the old one) usable both in type level and value level, with types of kind +
22:46:13 <oerjan> zzo38: n+k patterns? now you're just _asking_ for them to hate it :P
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22:47:29 <zzo38> I do hate ordinary n+k patterns
22:47:36 <zzo38> But this is a new kind
22:49:21 <zzo38> Which is only usable with values of types of kind + (as well as types of kind + themself in type level patterns)
22:50:33 <Taneb> I've been thinking about a graphical version of Haskell, possibly similar to Scratch, App Inventor, et al.
22:51:06 <Taneb> It's pretty difficult
22:52:04 <zzo38> oerjan: See? These are a new n+k patterns which are different than the old n+k patterns. I also hate the old n+k patterns but this new kind can explain natural numbers in general
22:52:23 <oerjan> mhm
22:54:34 <Taneb> Kinds would make it simpler
22:55:39 <Taneb> Goodnight
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22:57:23 <zzo38> For example: type family X (n :: +) (t :: *); type instance X 0 x = x; type instance X (n + 1) x = X n x -> X n x; is a kind of the new n+k patterns for natural number kinds, at the type level. But they could be used at value level as well.
22:58:17 <zzo38> Is it understand now?
22:58:42 <oerjan> i think so
23:01:36 <oerjan> hm except for notation, won't this be essentially that new type-to-kind lifting extension applied to data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat
23:02:26 <oerjan> (i'm not into the details of that, though)
23:04:18 <zzo38> I have read about that, but I don't think it is exactly the same thing, because my proposal puts + as a subkind of * so for example, (100 -> Bool) is a valid type which means an array of 100 bits
23:05:13 <zzo38> (And like I specified, these new n+k patterns would also be usable in value patterns as well as type patterns)
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23:21:16 <zzo38> Another idea is to write new versions of the list operations: length, (!!), findIndex, and so on, using: class Peanoid x where { zeroP :: x; succP :: x -> x; }; class Copeanoid x where { predP :: x -> Maybe x; }; (These are a specific kind of pointed unary systems, and some variations on them.)
23:21:34 <zzo38> This could be done even in existing Haskell compiler, simply using alternative Prelude
23:21:43 <zzo38> Or other libraries can be written easily.
23:24:01 <zzo38> (h : t) !! i = maybe h (t !!) $ predP i; length [] = zeroP; length (h : t) = succP $ length t;
23:25:43 <zzo38> I don't know whether you would prefer new versions of the list operations defined like this or not
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23:49:32 <Gregor> I think I like the word "ciretose"
23:53:20 <zzo38> There doesn't seem very good document for "preprocessor-tools" package.
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