←2012-02-03 2012-02-04 2012-02-05→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:20:51 <zzo38> Those people in #haskell channels, they don't know my program!!! Can you help me why the file it output won't load in another program?
00:27:13 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why my program is bad??????????????
00:33:23 <oerjan> :t asum
00:33:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `asum'
00:33:30 <oerjan> @hoogle asum
00:33:31 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
00:33:50 <oerjan> zzo38: i think choice = asum
00:34:38 <zzo38> oerjan: OK. I put it there just to generalize the Parsec choice function, but thanks for idea
00:35:43 <zzo38> But do you know what is wrong with the MIDI output?
00:36:13 <oerjan> i don't even know MIDI format, alas
00:36:39 <oerjan> i suspect i can only give trivial advice here
00:36:52 <zzo38> Well, if you do find other problems them please notify me anyways
00:37:25 <oerjan> > map sum . tail . inits $ [1,5,7,10]
00:37:27 <lambdabot> [1,6,13,23]
00:37:40 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) [1,5,7,10]
00:37:41 <lambdabot> [1,6,13,23]
00:37:59 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. Thanks
00:40:40 <oerjan> :t until
00:40:41 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
00:41:06 <oerjan> i think that's similar to your <<?, although possibly with reversed test
00:42:21 <zzo38> What module is that?
00:42:40 <oerjan> Prelude, i think
00:44:06 <zzo38> until is different to <<?
00:44:30 <oerjan> i think (<<?) = flip (until . (not .))
00:45:09 <zzo38> <<? is not recursive; until calls itself until it is true but <<? just does once, so it is different
00:45:21 <oerjan> oh right
00:45:29 <oerjan> misread
01:07:55 <oerjan> zzo38: your instance Eq Event looks wrong, and the Ord looks equivalent to a default derivation. i think you might just want deriving (Show, Eq, Ord) on the data declaration?
01:10:26 <zzo38> O yes you are correct.
01:10:53 <oerjan> i don't know if the Eq Event bug might cause some trouble
01:10:58 <zzo38> I thought I fixed that already, but I guess I forgot.
01:12:45 <zzo38> That didn't fix it
01:13:31 <oerjan> aww
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02:04:11 <zzo38> Oops! There seems a mistake in preprocessor-tools package it won't parse things such as 0x7 correctly
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03:22:08 <zzo38> What is your opinion of alternative list operations that use Peanoid/Copeanoid classes instead of numeric classes?
03:26:00 <oerjan> hm do you really need more than data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat for this? it seems to me like all others could easily be converted from/to that
03:27:24 <zzo38> Yes they could, but you still might want the functions to result in various types, including numeric types
03:27:32 <oerjan> toNat x = maybe Zero (Succ . toNat) . predP
03:28:30 <oerjan> fromNat Zero = zeroP; fromNat (Succ x) = succP (fromNat x)
03:28:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that works. Mine was just polymorphic so that you can still have: length :: [x] -> Int and so on would still work. In addition to possibly other uses
03:29:27 <zzo38> Similar to genericLength and so on but with different classes
03:29:37 <Sgeo> kallisti, rapdate if you didn't see it
03:30:27 <zzo38> Of course it can be written in different codes and you do not have to use if you do not like it; it is like, they sometimes have alternative Prelude and so on
03:31:16 <oerjan> i wonder if findIndex and friends should return something lazier
03:31:44 <oerjan> data MaybeIndex = Found | NotFound | Later MaybeIndex
03:32:35 <zzo38> Yes that would be lazier you are correct; they could have a lazyFindIndex function which returns that
03:35:39 <zzo38> It would be possible make alternate prelude compatible with standard prelude, using the default instances extension I have proposed, too.
03:41:53 <zzo38> Now I made up a fixAst function which corrects the problem that preprocessor-tools package will not parse 0x45 and things like that; I also added feature to parse 0b110001 and 0'A' as well.
03:42:26 <zzo38> (Where 0'A' is 65)
03:42:56 <zzo38> It will correctly check first whether or not the tokens are adjacent before combining them, so it won't reparse them if the tokens have space in between
03:46:26 <zzo38> However, it also fails at Template Haskell name quotations
03:46:50 <zzo38> Which is more difficult to fix.
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04:47:45 <oklopol> mornin
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04:48:53 <oklopol> i coded all night. i feel so dirty.
04:49:27 <zzo38> Then go shower
04:55:44 <ion> In what language?
04:58:51 <oerjan> in Clean, of course.
05:08:26 <oklopol> c#
05:08:33 <oklopol> that has nothing to do with feeling dirty
05:08:47 <oklopol> neither does the lack of shower
05:09:10 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'm sure coding in PHP could make you feel dirty
05:09:31 <oklopol> php is horrible. c# is okay, just really annoying.
05:10:54 <zzo38> I know, PHP isn't very good.
05:11:51 <zzo38> Mostly due to some syntax not acceptable (such as f(0)[1] doesn't work) and the way implicit casts work doesn't entirely make sense, and a few other things
05:12:41 <zzo38> JavaScript is clearly better; if you can make library with many stuff of PHP then you can do
05:25:55 <zzo38> Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification?
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05:55:37 <hagb4rd> zzo38: found a soulution?
05:58:17 <hagb4rd> wonder if there is an easier way then using filter on regex condition
05:59:16 <hagb4rd> *than
06:08:05 <kallisti> that already sounds pretty easy.
06:23:16 <hagb4rd> so the answer is no
06:23:30 <hagb4rd> there is none
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06:48:55 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I was watching television so I haven't checked yet
06:50:19 <zzo38> Do you know if a package exists for this purpose?
07:18:15 <hagb4rd> which purpose exactly
07:18:33 <hagb4rd> zzo38 there are several regex packages
07:18:53 <zzo38> Such as if you have wildcards and want to search list all files matching those wildcard
07:20:39 <hagb4rd> get list of files with getDirectoryContents
07:20:48 <zzo38> Yes I found that.
07:21:15 <zzo38> Still, the filespec might include a path; but that can probably be moved too using other functions
07:21:20 <hagb4rd> then use filteredList = filter(regexp files)
07:21:28 <hagb4rd> thats it
07:21:32 <zzo38> OK
07:22:02 <zzo38> But what about: in Windows, filenames are case insensitive, but in UNIX, is case sensitive!
07:22:28 <hagb4rd> learn more about regular expressions
07:22:40 <hagb4rd> [a-z]*
07:22:45 <hagb4rd> small caps
07:22:51 <zzo38> I know how regular expressions works
07:22:53 <pikhq> zzo38: Not (entirely) true.
07:23:07 <pikhq> zzo38: In Win32, filenames are case insensitive.
07:23:10 <hagb4rd> i do not see your problem
07:23:34 <pikhq> zzo38: With the NT API, or the POSIX subsystem, on Windows filenames are case sensitive.
07:23:41 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I just told you; it is that it must be matched differently in different operating systems
07:23:55 <hagb4rd> normally one uses * or ? as wildcard
07:24:03 <hagb4rd> so
07:24:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Doesn't it depend on the filesystem or something like that? I think I read somewhere that the NT internally uses different rules for different filesystems depending on the driver, or something else
07:24:33 <zzo38> Even though Win32 is always case insensitive
07:24:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Not *really*...
07:25:03 <pikhq> FAT with LFNs is actually case sensitive.
07:26:19 <hagb4rd> ok.. if you want to ignore cs just make them all lowerCase before using regex
07:26:24 <hagb4rd> for example
07:26:25 <pikhq> (and, indeed, UTF-16)
07:26:42 <zzo38> hagb4rd: That is no good; because then it won't work on UNIX
07:26:51 <hagb4rd> the question is
07:27:02 <hagb4rd> what do you want
07:27:28 <zzo38> To do different for Windows and UNIX
07:27:43 <hagb4rd> if you want to use ignore caps do so..if not..
07:27:58 <pikhq> hagb4rd: But that's platform specific.
07:28:15 <hagb4rd> sure
07:28:20 <hagb4rd> so what`?
07:28:28 <pikhq> So, you have to handle them seperately.
07:28:42 <pikhq> The computer isn't psychic.
07:31:08 <hagb4rd> listen.. if we have these files on a unix system, for example.. myfile01, myfile02, myFile01 and myFile02 .. and you can search for my[f,F]ile* or myfile*
07:31:41 <hagb4rd> isnt that what you want to do?
07:31:41 <pikhq> And those match two different sets of files on a UNIX system, but precisely the same set on Windows.
07:32:07 <hagb4rd> i give up
07:32:33 <pikhq> Actually. Screw it, I blame zzo38.
07:32:34 <pikhq> :)
07:32:49 <zzo38> pikhq: For what?
07:32:57 <pikhq> I'm not sure. :)
07:33:35 <hagb4rd> <zzo38>Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification? <--
07:34:18 <hagb4rd> so the wildcard will be the argument for your function right?
07:34:42 <hagb4rd> if so.. you can decide which wildcard to use dependig on the case
07:35:12 <hagb4rd> and of course the system
07:37:04 <hagb4rd> sorry, maybe i did not understand the use case of your code
07:41:10 <hagb4rd> im pretty sure i dont
07:41:12 <hagb4rd> :P
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08:24:04 <Taneb> Hello!
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11:36:26 <Taneb> Just finished my implementation of Langton's Ant in Haskell
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13:53:23 <Taneb> There's actually a new esolang!
13:53:33 <Taneb> It's a bf derivative, but that's better than spam
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14:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, WRONG
14:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Spam is at least obviously worth removing.
14:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
14:50:19 <fizzie> They're also a great way to get a rant out of a Phantom_Hoover.
15:44:15 <kallisti> do you guys know who Dale Earnhardt is?
15:44:50 <Taneb> brb
15:44:54 <Taneb> And no
15:47:28 <fizzie> I've heard the namel
15:47:41 <fizzie> Did it have something to do with... driving?
15:47:52 <fizzie> Or some sort of real-world activity.
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15:52:21 <fizzie> I think Something Positive made a bad-taste joke about his death, or something.
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15:53:43 <kallisti> fizzie: yes, and maybe?
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15:55:02 <Taneb> Back
16:00:17 <kallisti> I learned from my mother today that we're distantly related to Dale Earnhardt.
16:00:24 <kallisti> I thought that was slightly hilarious.
16:05:07 <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me.
16:05:22 <Taneb> :/
16:05:36 <Taneb> `quote feudal
16:05:48 <HackEgo> 476) <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
16:06:13 <Taneb> No, past me, it really doesn't
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17:08:05 <variable> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444
17:08:10 <variable> this is an interesting thought
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19:44:52 -!- ais523 has set topic: ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
19:44:55 <ais523> stack starts full of zeroes
19:45:03 <ais523> no need to put one there right at the start of the program
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19:54:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISPLAY 'elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.' LINE 1 POSITION 1. STOP RUN..
19:55:07 <Gregor> I was gettin' tired of backwards ^^
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20:09:04 <fizzie> ais523: Personally I always put a zero in anyway. Code reuse and all that. You never know when your snippet is being run in a context where there's something interesting on the stack. (I guess for the topic one could make a concise-is-good argument, though.)
20:14:47 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:14:51 <HackEgo> 808) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:16:47 <oerjan> <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me. <-- i vaguely recall i'm supposedly related to some norwegian actor or something, but i'm not entirely sure who it was.
20:17:47 * oerjan wonders if it was Toralv Maurstad, although you won't have heard of him anyhow.
20:18:10 <Taneb> That reminds me, it's time to start The Girl Who Played With Fire
20:18:17 <Taneb> Even though that's Swedish
20:18:31 <oerjan> it's a pretty far off relationship i think.
20:19:24 <oerjan> also there's supposedly some dutch aristocracy back in the centuries
20:19:51 <Taneb> I share a surname with a DJ's stage name...
20:20:38 <oerjan> you also share half a surname with Jean Claude van Damme
20:20:46 * oerjan cackles evilly
20:21:07 <Taneb> A mere tussenvoegsel
20:21:30 <oerjan> wat
20:21:36 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel
20:21:58 <oerjan> noted
20:22:21 <Taneb> Not likely to come in handy
20:23:09 <zzo38> How to predict world events by the movement of planets: Step 1. Use computer to compute positions of planets. Step 2. Use a telescope to view those positions in the sky. Step 3. If it doesn't match, then you can predict the end of the world.
20:23:36 <oerjan> also, you have a personal incentive to use fonts with disastrous keming for your future publications
20:24:15 <oerjan> especially the ones with dangerous science in them.
20:24:16 <Taneb> oerjan, and get a doctorate
20:24:53 <Taneb> I mean, if what's the point of being Mister van Doom
20:26:38 <oerjan> zzo38: or maybe you just need to buy a new clock.
20:27:37 <oerjan> now if you see a dark disk of no stars where jupiter was supposed to be, you may start to worry.
20:27:55 <oerjan> especially if the surrounding stars look slightly off-position.
20:28:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, there is the possibility that the clock is incorrect. But if that is the case you can still try different times and look for other clocks and so on. And yes, dark disk and that stuff is another thing you can worry
20:29:14 <oerjan> (note: it doesn't strictly need to be jupiter. jupiter's mass would be far too small for that anyhow.)
20:30:04 <zzo38> But still, there may be other things too that would tell you there is something wrong.
20:30:38 <oerjan> also, i'm totally waiting for that radioastronomy picture of a supermassive black hole which there are apparently at least two teams competing to be the first to produce.
20:30:39 <zzo38> I think you mean black holes? Yes I think Jupiter's mass is too small for that
20:31:01 <fizzie> Something I've wondered at least thrice: how does the JavaScript snippet !(typeof worldHasEnded == "undefined") detect whether the world has ended? I don't think that's in the standard, though I guess it could be a common browser extension. (hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com uses that.)
20:31:03 <oerjan> unless jupiter had already got frighfully close
20:31:48 <Taneb> Shouldn't worldHasEnded be a boolean?
20:32:34 <fizzie> It's not defined in the code. I think it's assuming it gets defined by the environment only when the world has ended, and it's testing for its existence.
20:32:42 <oerjan> fizzie: i believe it is guaranteed that expression won't return false if the world has ended. unless something else has set that variable, i guess.
20:33:17 <oerjan> actually even if so.
20:34:50 <monqy> what if it's being run in space
20:34:58 <monqy> or does space get to end too
20:35:24 <oerjan> i suppose that depends on the exact kind of world ending.
20:36:17 <fizzie> Now I wonder if there is currently any JavaScript running in space.
20:36:45 <oerjan> false vacuum collapse should be particularly reliable
20:37:35 <fizzie> "javascript satellite" is not returning any very promising hits.
20:37:54 <Sgeo> What are the unpromising ones like?
20:38:15 <oerjan> there is at least one person blogging from the iss, i learned the other day
20:38:31 <fizzie> There's some satellite tracking code that you can run in a browser.
20:38:46 <fizzie> And then Google's satellite imagery related things.
20:39:21 <fizzie> And several "this site requires javascript" notes.
20:40:22 <zzo38> Can you track satellites by entering the orbital parameters into the fucticious objects file of Swiss Ephemeris?
20:40:52 <fizzie> Presumably. They're just going around there.
20:41:37 <variable> this is an interesting thought -> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444 interactive compilation with some memory of what you said
20:41:40 <zzo38> And then you can plot artificial satellites on a horoscope too.
20:41:40 <variable> sort of
20:45:18 <oerjan> Gregor: what the heck is that esolang in the topic, i cannot find it on either esolang or codu
20:45:35 <Gregor> lol
20:45:36 <Gregor> COBOL
20:45:39 <oerjan> argh
20:45:48 <zzo38> Forth codes are generally compiled and executed as you type them in, while BASIC allows you to enter commands interactively as well as enter line numbers to enter instructions into the program which will be saved.
20:47:04 <zzo38> The new GHCi could also do that since they added feature to enter any top-level declaration at the prompt.
20:47:35 <Sgeo> Gregor, no it's not. It's missing all sorts of important stuff, like IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
20:47:44 <oerjan> well forth has :
20:48:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's just a code fragment, not a complete program.
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20:48:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, make it a complete program!
20:48:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, the command : enters compile mode defining a new word, although ] will also enter compile mode and there are various other things
20:49:05 <Sgeo> Although COBOL is indentation sensitive IIRC.
20:49:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Does a COBOL program require an IDENTIFICATION DIVISION or is that part optional and only the prorgram division is required? I don't know COBOL programming
20:49:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\/\/codu.org\/logs\/_esoteric\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:31 <Sgeo> zzo38, IDENTIFICATION DIVISION is required I think
20:49:35 <oerjan> oh wait
20:49:46 <Sgeo> I think only ENVIRONMENT DIVISION and ... something else are optional, but I'm not sure.
20:49:54 * Sgeo googles
20:49:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:59 <zzo38> OK, I didn't know that
20:50:26 <Sgeo> Environment and Data are optional, Identification and Procedure (I think it's called) are not.
21:00:22 <Gregor> Some math professor accidentally reply-all'd to an email from 2004 about an apparently-failed initiative to merge some of the major math-related libraries (incl. CS), and for some reason the CS graduate students' mailing list was on the CC. Now a bunch of people are replying, not realizing that the conversation is eight years out of date.
21:02:55 <fizzie> Oh, SDCC... "int foo; /* file-scope */ ... foo = bar();" => call _bar; ld b, h; ld c, l; ld iy, #_foo; ld 0(iy), c; ld iy, #_foo; ld 1(iy), b .. it's like some sort of "most pessimal assembly" competition. (It could be replaced by "ld (_foo), hl".)
21:03:40 <fizzie> (Well, except that wouldn't clobber bc.)
21:03:47 <fizzie> (And iy.)
21:03:50 -!- nooga has joined.
21:04:08 <Taneb> I'm making a webpage for me
21:04:20 <fizzie> Taneb: Remember to kern the name right.
21:12:13 <oerjan> kem eaλy, kem oAen
21:15:36 <fizzie> Just keep keming.
21:16:17 <fizzie> There's a relative lack of ligatures in Unicode. They dare to say it's not the job of the character set.
21:17:13 <fizzie> Of the latin alphabet, there's only "ij", "oe", "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", "ffl", "ft" and "st".
21:17:21 <oerjan> i recall a conversation once with someone who thought distinguishing upper and lower case letters was going too far
21:17:21 <zzo38> You could use something like METAFONT's ligature/kern programs
21:17:34 <oerjan> that there should just be some modifier for it
21:18:00 <zzo38> I think nearly everything in Unicode is going too gar
21:18:18 <oerjan> to boldly go too far
21:18:22 <zzo38> oerjan: I think some character sets do have just a modifier for uppercase/lowercase letters, although they are not commonly used
21:19:23 <zzo38> s/too gar/too far/
21:20:32 <fizzie> oerjan: I'd describe that statement as just loſty, high-flown, perhaps even rarefied.
21:20:44 <fizzie> Gah. I mean statement, of course.
21:22:01 <oerjan> i'd describe those lines as having about half the ligatures invisible in putty
21:22:06 <zzo38> When I subscribed to 2600 I noticed they used ligatures in fixed-pitch text. They shouldn't do that. I don't know if they still do; I have not yet resubscribed. Someoneone should notify them not to use ligatures in fixed-pitch text
21:22:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Aw. Well, the surviving ligatures are just "compatibility characters", anyhow.
21:22:53 <monqy> :(
21:23:21 <zzo38> Computer Modern typewriter style texts do not use ligatures, although the variable-pitch Computer Modern fonts do have ligatures and kerning.
21:41:44 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible for a custom Haskell preprocessor to figure out which C preprocessor symbols exist?
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22:10:08 <oklopol> briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
22:10:11 -!- pir^2 has joined.
22:10:15 <pir^2> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lam%C2%ADent <-- WTF
22:10:44 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
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22:11:06 <pir^2> what control/non-printable character is in there?
22:13:38 <oklopol> (Replacing page with 'cocks')
22:14:52 <Gregor> "Cocks" is not an ANSI control character.
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22:16:24 <pir^2> no
22:16:27 <pir^2> the username
22:16:28 <oklopol> i guess i just assumed it wad
22:16:29 <oklopol> *was
22:16:37 <oerjan> > [0xC2,0xAD]
22:16:38 <lambdabot> [194,173]
22:16:47 <oerjan> ^chr 194 173
22:16:47 <fungot> M
22:17:01 <oerjan> hm
22:17:08 <pir^2> special characters?
22:17:09 <oerjan> ^chr 194
22:17:09 <fungot>
22:17:15 <oerjan> ^chr 173
22:17:15 <fungot>
22:17:27 <pir^2> that 194 lools weird O_o
22:17:36 <pir^2> *looks
22:17:52 <Gregor> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (U+00AD)
22:18:01 <oklopol> makes sense
22:18:02 <Gregor> 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation.
22:18:06 <Gregor> It's like a zero-width space.
22:18:16 <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char
22:18:38 <zzo38> Someone with Android tried the Android gopher client and found a mistake in it. I tried to send message to them but it failed
22:19:19 <oerjan> oh right, 194 _is_ the first prefix
22:19:34 <oklopol> i just ate
22:19:37 <oklopol> (food)
22:19:41 <oerjan> ^chr 32 65 194 173 65
22:19:42 <fungot>
22:19:46 <zzo38> What food?
22:19:51 <oerjan> wtf is fungot doing there
22:19:51 <fungot> oerjan: is it important whether a _constant_ is signed or unsigned btw?
22:19:53 <oklopol> macaroni and stuff
22:19:57 <oerjan> ^show chr
22:19:57 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
22:20:15 <oerjan> oh right, it only handles a single char
22:20:29 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char // yes, 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation of U+00AD.
22:21:30 <ais523> &shy; looks like a zero-width space except at the end of a line
22:22:05 <Gregor> Ohhh, clever.
22:22:09 <Gregor> (But stupid)
22:22:11 * oklopol is watching moomins
22:22:21 <oklopol> i feel so finnish.
22:23:05 -!- dalia has left.
22:23:46 <oklopol> *snoring* "i hear snoring. i shall whistle." *whistle* "the snoring has stopped."
22:30:38 <oklopol> (imagine this articulated excruciatingly precisely)
22:32:10 <oerjan> the moomins animations are made in japan, aren't they.
22:32:16 <oklopol> yes
22:32:33 <oklopol> there are three japanese episodes that were apparently too scary for finland
22:32:39 <oerjan> XD
22:33:47 <oklopol> (i found the finnish ones scarier than jaws when i was 6 or something)
22:34:36 <oklopol> well not all of them are scary ofc
22:35:13 <oklopol> there are also finnish moomin comics but those are mainly about the moomins drinking and having horrible hangovers
22:35:24 <oerjan> wat
22:35:36 <oklopol> i'm serious
22:36:15 <oklopol> "how can one be thirsty after drinking all night!" -- moominpappa
22:36:43 <Taneb> Oh god I remember the moomins
22:36:48 <Taneb> Barely...
22:37:44 <Taneb> I was more of an El Nombre fan
22:37:48 <oklopol> oerjan: did you know that tove jansson originally just wanted to invent the scariest creature ever
22:37:55 <oklopol> and that became the moomin
22:38:03 <oerjan> epic failure, that.
22:38:06 <oklopol> yes.
22:41:28 <oklopol> episode numbeer on: moomin turns into a horrible red creature and no one recognizes him.
22:41:36 <oklopol> *number one
22:42:00 <oklopol> "dad?" "i am not your father."
22:42:11 <zzo38> Then wear a sign so that you can be recognized?
22:42:51 <oklopol> horrible organ music starts playing, moonin starts crying and beating the mirror with his fists
22:43:37 <zzo38> Then they need to hire better organ music musicians
22:43:50 <oklopol> oh not that kind of horrible .
22:43:52 <oklopol> *.
22:44:08 <oklopol> the music is awesome.
22:44:31 <zzo38> OK
22:46:41 <oklopol> tonight, and 18yo girls wanted me to explain cantor diagonalization to her.
22:46:43 <oklopol> *girl
22:47:14 <oklopol> she didn't believe there can be multiple infinities.
22:48:13 <zzo38> That happen to me too, a few people have not believe there can be multiple infinities, so I showed them how
22:48:31 <oklopol> and i was like so i study these zero-dimensional space and she was like omg that's so cool.
22:48:56 <oklopol> well sure but were they hot
22:51:23 <oklopol> although she was more interested in 2^N and N^N having the same cardinality.
22:53:40 <Taneb> Cantor gets all the chicks
22:53:51 <oklopol> i couldn't come up with a nice concrete bijection, so i did this in a roundabout way, anyone have one in mind?
22:58:45 <oerjan> hm i have one from N^N to [0,1), i think.
22:58:57 <oklopol> me too
22:59:16 <oklopol> oh err no i have one between N^N and 2^N except all zeroes
22:59:25 <oklopol> wait. actually it's the same as yours
22:59:27 <oklopol> sorry.
22:59:43 <oklopol> i guess things like 1^n0 will always give you something like that
23:00:01 <oerjan> just .1^a_0 0 1^a_1 0 1^a_2 ...
23:00:06 <oerjan> *just .1^{a_0} 0 1^{a_1} 0 1^{a_2} ...
23:00:16 <oklopol> yeah
23:00:23 <oerjan> it cannot give something ending in infinite 1's
23:00:26 <oklopol> by 1^n0 i meant the code
23:00:36 <oklopol> where you have stuff.
23:00:45 <oklopol> i mean n to 1^n0
23:00:50 <oklopol> but i guess codes cannot give you this
23:00:57 <oerjan> wat
23:01:10 <oklopol> i didn't bother to make sense
23:01:11 <oerjan> by 1^a i mean a 1 digits
23:01:14 <oklopol> yeah
23:01:23 <oklopol> i mean
23:01:35 <oklopol> codes cannot give you the bijection i was asking
23:01:39 <oklopol> but maybe they can
23:01:48 <oklopol> i just have this weird feeling that compactness makes that hard
23:01:55 <oerjan> i have no idea what you mean by "codes", here.
23:02:06 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps because that would be a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N
23:02:07 <oklopol> oh.
23:02:23 <oklopol> i mean n is replaced by 1^n0 in its place and you concatenate into sequence
23:02:53 <oklopol> codes mean that you have a language and you stick its words together to form longer words and you can always decode.
23:07:38 <oerjan> from 2^N to [0,1), you just use binary except that you need to somehow distinguish ...011111111... form ...10000000...
23:08:04 <oerjan> *from
23:08:32 <oerjan> which you could do by handling that slightly differently, say by prepending 0 to the whole number in one case and 1 in the other
23:08:47 <oerjan> (after the point)
23:08:51 <oklopol> yeah
23:09:24 <oklopol> that should do it
23:09:27 <oerjan> hm or wait
23:09:36 <oklopol> oh?
23:09:55 <oerjan> that might _still_ not distinguish .0111111... from .100000... when it's at the very start
23:10:23 <oerjan> or hm
23:10:50 <oklopol> yeah dunno, in any case once i realized codes prolly won't work i gave up.
23:11:09 <oerjan> it's all a matter of fixing up a countable subset, anyhow.
23:11:28 <oerjan> food ->
23:11:31 <oklopol> can you have a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N?
23:11:43 <oklopol> a code would in fact be a homeomorphism so that won't work
23:12:25 <oklopol> or at least a prefix code would. dunno about crazy scientist codes.
23:12:45 <oerjan> why wouldn't there be a homeomorphism, hm
23:12:51 <oerjan> oh
23:12:56 <oerjan> N^N isn't compact
23:13:04 <oklopol> no N^N is the baire space
23:13:08 <oklopol> it's very different from 2^N
23:13:33 <oerjan> er it's product topology of discrete N's, no?
23:13:45 <oklopol> yes
23:14:15 <oklopol> it's a baire space called the baire space
23:14:16 <oerjan> very well i dunno
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23:20:22 <zzo38> O no the version of Haskell that I have does not include the dropWhileEnd function
23:20:37 <zzo38> Therefore I can include it directly in my program instead
23:21:43 <oklopol> i asked #math about the continuous bijection
23:22:14 <oklopol> they asked me what the topology of N^N was. "the usual one" was apparently meaningless.
23:23:30 <zzo38> Why aren't you allowed to hide things that a module does not export? That is one of my suggestion for a Haskell extension, which allows you to specify "hiding" on imports with things that are not exported by that module if you specify -XHidingNonexistent
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23:25:35 <Sgeo> "a blue card with an urza's block symbol? screw this Im not bothering to read it. its 5 stars, its broken, theres a zillion combos and it makes kids cry, right? im getting one. :)"
23:25:45 <Sgeo> ^^some comment on Donate
23:26:26 <zzo38> Donate? I know that card.
23:26:45 <pikhq_> 'Tis a classic.
23:26:46 <ais523> it's reasonably infamous
23:26:47 <Sgeo> What's so infamous about Urza?
23:27:01 <ais523> Illusions of Grandeur is the /most/ infamous combo with it
23:27:02 <zzo38> So, yes probably you can make many combos with it; at least, just from what I know about the text on the card itself; I read nothing else about it.
23:27:03 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Utterly broken.
23:27:05 <ais523> I can't remember which was banned
23:27:28 <pikhq_> Sgeo: This is the set that gave us a land that gave you one mana for each artifact you control.
23:27:30 <zzo38> ais523: O, yes; I have not thought of that.
23:27:47 <pikhq_> (or creature or enchantment... It was a set of 3)
23:28:06 <zzo38> But there were some artifacts costing 0
23:28:31 <Sgeo> There was a Friday Night Magic thing at my school ... on Friday
23:28:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What formats did they play?
23:28:54 <Sgeo> We did a draft, I chose blue-green cards and someone helped me pare it down, he said to go monogreen so I did
23:28:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: It got upgraded from "broken" to "BROKEN" by Mirrodin, I'm sure.
23:29:11 <ais523> pikhq_: Mirrodin was broken enough by itself
23:29:21 <Sgeo> Um, best two of 3 against .. persons
23:29:33 <Sgeo> I tended to play slowly, and time was at a premium :/
23:29:34 <pikhq_> Yup. Makes sense that it made the previous utterly broken set even worse. :)
23:29:46 <ais523> Arcbound Ravager is a card that, where it's legal, people either play, or dedicate half their deck to beating
23:29:49 <zzo38> I always prefer Limited format
23:29:58 <zzo38> And, in Limited format, nothing is banned.
23:30:13 <pikhq_> Fucking Arcbound Ravager.
23:30:21 <zzo38> (Except for cards you bring in which aren't the ones you drafted)
23:30:38 <ais523> hmm, I actually managed to pull off Coalition Victory wins twice in a Limited tournament
23:30:39 <pikhq_> And Isochron Scepter.
23:30:43 <pikhq_> The fuck where they *thinking*
23:30:49 <ais523> the first time was hilarious, five monocoloured creatures, five different basic lands
23:31:02 <ais523> there were general wtfs from around the table
23:31:17 * Sgeo is not quite following this conversation anymore
23:31:31 <Sgeo> Oh, yeah, I saw Coalition Victory
23:31:33 <ais523> Sgeo: you started it!
23:31:45 <pikhq_> Sgeo: magiccards.info will help
23:31:47 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, but I'm not all that familiar with every single card
23:31:47 <ais523> Sgeo: it's very much a Constructed card, people don't expect it in Limited
23:31:53 <ais523> Sgeo: you can look them up
23:32:01 <ais523> Gatherer is the main resource, I think
23:32:09 <ais523> gatherer.wizards.com IIRC
23:32:17 <ais523> it's the "official" one
23:32:20 <pikhq_> The one's we're talking about are ones that most people who've been playing for a while will be aware of.
23:32:45 <Sgeo> Ah
23:33:02 <zzo38> Probably most the problem is that Constructed tournaments are played with those cards, rather than the cards themselves; combos are more difficult to make in Limited so they require both more skill and more luck in order to make any combo at all
23:33:07 <ais523> yep, when talking about the most broken cards of all time, most people will have heard of them
23:33:12 <ais523> (Necropotence, anyone?)
23:33:32 <pikhq_> That SOB.
23:33:35 <zzo38> I know the card Necropotence.
23:34:02 <Sgeo> What's good about Necropotence?
23:34:12 <ais523> Sgeo: pay life, get cards
23:34:16 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe against a milling deck, but... hmm
23:34:28 <pikhq_> It's *insanely* good card draw.
23:34:40 <zzo38> Of course is too bad if you use it too much; you will run out of cards or life or both
23:34:45 <ais523> it's one of only eight cards that's restricted in Vintage
23:34:55 <ais523> and five of them form a cycle
23:35:07 <ais523> zzo38: pay 19 life, draw 19 cards, if you have a combo deck you've probably won
23:35:07 <zzo38> Do you mean, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, etc?
23:35:11 <Sgeo> Power Eight?
23:35:11 <ais523> zzo38: yes
23:35:14 <ais523> Sgeo: yes
23:35:21 <pikhq_> And seven of them cost several hundred each.
23:35:30 <ais523> pikhq_: which one doesn't?
23:35:32 <Sgeo> ...what's the eight cost?
23:35:47 <pikhq_> ais523: Necropotence. It was printed recently.
23:35:57 <ais523> ah, OK
23:35:57 <pikhq_> (From The Vault: Exiled)
23:36:04 <Sgeo> Wait, wikipedia says Power Nine
23:36:09 <ais523> oh, another one's been banned?
23:36:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is a good point; still, you might lose especially depending on turn number and opponent's cards
23:36:18 <ais523> so, what are the three not yet mentioned?
23:36:20 * ais523 tries to remember
23:36:20 <pikhq_> Also, it's more than 8 cards restricted in Vintage...
23:36:37 <ais523> pikhq_: are you confusing it with Legacy? or am I?
23:36:45 <pikhq_> You are.
23:36:56 <pikhq_> The entire Power 9 is banned in Legacy.
23:37:05 <ais523> ah, OK
23:37:20 <pikhq_> Legacy doesn't have a restricted list.
23:37:24 <ais523> and restricted in Vintage, right?
23:37:29 <ais523> so I did get it right, I think
23:37:34 <zzo38> I don't like Constructed anyways, and in Limited nothing is restricted/banned, with the exception of ante and physical dexterity cards.
23:37:34 <zzo38> However, I want to play Limited+Ante.
23:37:34 <zzo38> Where the cards you drafted are put for ante
23:38:17 <pikhq_> Also, 43 Vintage restricted cards.
23:38:28 <zzo38> I think, Alpha cards are also banned in all formats (including Vintage) unless you have card sleeves.
23:38:37 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes, due to being marked.
23:38:51 <ais523> I stopped playing because I didn't like /Lorwyn/, but I played it quite a bit before then
23:39:18 * Sgeo notes Mox Lotus (yes, I know it can't be played in most formats)
23:39:33 <Sgeo> Are there any somewhat easy ways to get the 15 mana?
23:39:54 <ais523> Sgeo: if you badly need 15 mana, you can probably get it, but you're going to need to devote your deck to it
23:40:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Play green. :)
23:40:32 <pikhq_> ais523: Mox Lotus provides infinite mana, so... :)
23:41:05 <pikhq_> (literally; it taps for {infinity})
23:41:13 <ais523> oh right
23:41:20 <ais523> that's the un-set mana-producer, isn't it?
23:41:23 <zzo38> I dislike many of the rules of the game; so, make up a new game with similar but different rules, different cards, and no Constructed formats.
23:41:24 <pikhq_> Yup.
23:41:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: A friend and I have been hashing out ideas for a Magic-alike for quite a while now.
23:42:28 <ais523> I know I had a really good /Time Spiral/ block combo deck that could beat many of the other good decks around then
23:42:33 <ais523> and quite possibly newer good decks too
23:42:39 <zzo38> pikhq_: I have too; I will tell my ideas. We can make up stuff in this channel and so on.
23:42:44 <ais523> it was meant for Standard, but nearly all the cards came from the same block
23:42:57 <pikhq_> zzo38: Among other things: all spells have power/toughness.
23:43:04 <pikhq_> One doesn't counter spells, one deals damage to them.
23:43:10 <ais523> pikhq_: sounds vaguely like the Normish card game
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23:43:13 <pikhq_> Because, frankly, counterspell is utterly ridiculous.
23:43:13 <ais523> that never really got started
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23:43:43 <zzo38> pikhq_: That wasn't my idea, but you can do that. I had different ideas (where there still is counterspells).
23:44:23 <pikhq_> Template for Lightning Bolt now reads: "Lighting Bolt. {R}. Sorcery. Flash. Lightning Bolt strikes target creature or player. 3/1"
23:44:53 <zzo38> * No Constructed formats. * No state-based effect telling you that a aura which is also a creature is discarded. * No rule that Lands are not played as other card types (it is unnecessary; they can't be played as other types without a mana cost).
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23:45:18 <zzo38> pikhq_: Another of my ideas was that instead of damage to "target creature or player" it targets "target permanent or player".
23:45:19 <ais523> zzo38: what if they get a mana cost from somewhere?
23:45:38 <zzo38> ais523: Then they can be played as other types. It is a different game!
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23:45:50 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't much like that as the typical burn spell.
23:46:02 <pikhq_> But certainly "Strike target permanent." is neat.
23:46:26 <ais523> pikhq_: but then you could use lightning bolt to blow up auras
23:46:29 <ais523> that's a pretty non-red thing to do
23:46:31 <zzo38> pikhq_: But, also in my suggestions, even though it says "target permanent or player", most permanents are unaffected by damage.
23:46:40 <pikhq_> ais523: There's a reason I say "not as the typical burn spell"
23:46:54 <Taneb> Right, my webpage is now complete up to MIBBLLII
23:47:04 <Taneb> I just need to add Luigi and Brook
23:47:12 <ais523> I'm not sure if I can think of an effect that hits all of creatures, players, and auras anywhere in Magic
23:47:25 <ais523> or, indeed, just both players and auras
23:47:27 <pikhq_> {B}{B}{B} Sorcery. Strike target permanent. 1/1
23:47:46 <Taneb> Anyone here play Sopio?
23:47:47 <Sgeo> strike?
23:47:51 <ais523> pikhq_: would lands have 1 toughness?
23:47:57 <ais523> basic lands, anyway?
23:48:01 <zzo38> pikhq_: Your ideas sem good but is different game than mine
23:48:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I invented that as a scheme for saying "This deals damage equal to its power"
23:48:42 <pikhq_> ais523: Mmmm, I'd be inclined to give basic lands higher toughness, and more powerful lands lower toughness.
23:48:47 <zzo38> * Mana burn included. * Use TeXnicard, and possibly other program make open source rule enforcement programs. * Drawing a card when you are unable is an immediate loss, not a state-based effect. * Zones are now named as follows: hand zone, draw zone, discard zone, stack zone, in-play zone, exile zone.
23:48:55 <Sgeo> pikhq_, oh, you're talking about your own game?
23:49:42 <pikhq_> ais523: It feels like the difficulty of getting rid of a mana source should be inversely proportional to how good it is.
23:49:46 <ais523> interesting
23:49:50 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
23:49:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Yeah.
23:50:47 <pikhq_> Perhaps give basic lands 2 or 3 toughness. And 0 power, of course.
23:52:24 <zzo38> * Subtypes no longer depend on types (and there is no Tribal type). * Planeswalker are different, now count as players and permanents like my Playercard idea (also change the name to not confuse with "Plainswalk"). * Attack/block/combat damage is assigned and you can do stuff in between, but nonexistent sources never deal damage (even non-combat damage).
23:53:09 <ais523> zzo38: "Plainswalk" is very rarely used just because it sounds too much like "planeswalker"
23:53:43 <pikhq_> Clearly WotC should print Nicol Bolas, Plains.
23:53:59 <pikhq_> And a card with "Nicol Bolas, Plainswalk"
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23:55:26 <zzo38> * Conceding subgames is not allowed; only the main game can be conceded (although you are still allowed to do so during a subgame). * Every object has an initial state or a lack of it. * No state-based effect causing tokens out of play ceasing to exist (it becomes unnecessary; read ahead).
23:55:30 <Sgeo> "(Although it was originally a joke, the mechanic was recycled completely seriously in the Time Travel-heavy Time Spiral block, albeit not for creatures.)"
23:55:34 <Sgeo> That sounds interesting
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23:56:53 <zzo38> * Objects moving between zones cease to exist (except for stack->play, play->phaseout, phaseout->play); a new object is created in the destination zone from the initial state of the old object. If it had none, nothing is created. * Copies of spells on the stack are also tokens.
23:57:37 <pikhq_> There isn't a phased-out zone anymore.
23:58:03 <pikhq_> And objects moving between zones do effectively cease to exist, and you create a new object with the same state.
23:58:34 <pikhq_> (with a few exceptions for particular, very odd things that only happen when you're playing with cards from Alpha)
23:59:14 <zzo38> I know that, but I am doing a entirely different game, with entirely different cards and so on. So, it does use some old rules.
23:59:20 <zzo38> And some new rules. But not all.
23:59:50 <pikhq_> Also, you realise that the current phasing rules are the first ones that have been simple enough to fit as reminder text, right? :)
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