←2012-03-16 2012-03-17 2012-03-18→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:01:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to derive the Applicative laws from saying (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid? (Note that the Applicative itself is not constrained, and that the types of these things are more general then what I specified here)
00:01:51 <zzo38> O, I missed one thing: Also that it is a Functor.
00:02:01 <zzo38> has to be assumed too
00:03:57 <elliott> oerjan: hey is "What hath I wrought" valid.
00:04:35 <oerjan> no.
00:04:43 <elliott> oerjan: how do i make it valid.
00:04:52 <oerjan> what have I wrought
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00:05:12 <elliott> thx
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00:07:58 <oerjan> yw
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00:28:23 <elliott> oerjan: (the context is a certain answer to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9745539/how-do-i-create-haskell-functions-that-return-functions. which one will become apparent if you read the page.)
00:36:50 <oerjan> O KAY
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00:46:27 <zzo38> Is it ever useful that a continuation can form a ring? Is the free Alternative instance for continuations every useful?
00:49:14 <elliott> yes.
00:49:50 <elliott> or no.
00:49:51 <elliott> one of the two
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01:01:20 <itidus21> i have a fairly dumb question to throw out there.. im wondering what sort of computational class i would have if programs consist of a sequence of optionally labelled lines: goto line and print text
01:02:58 <itidus21> so it would be like: 1:goto 10. 5: print world. goto 11. 10: print hello. goto 5. 11:undocumented end command
01:12:10 <Sgeo> Something that can print a finite or infinite amount of text. I don't think printing counts as computation?
01:12:16 <Sgeo> But maybe I'm missing something
01:12:39 <Sgeo> Either it terminates or it doesn't, and it's easy to determine statically.
01:17:23 <elliott> what
01:17:52 <elliott> ???
01:17:59 <kmc> it's not really a computational class, because it always does the same thing
01:18:14 <kmc> it doesn't accept/reject strings, or return values based on inputs, or anything like that
01:18:25 <kmc> it's just a graph
01:19:14 <elliott> we'd probably categorise it as [[Category:Finite state automata]].
01:21:42 <Sgeo> kmc, so do turing machines.
01:21:56 <Sgeo> Well, unless the tape counts as input?
01:22:07 <Sgeo> I thought turing machines start with blank tape
01:22:25 <Sgeo> Although I guess that doesn't make sense.
01:24:08 <kmc> nope
01:24:52 <kmc> Turing machines accept/reject a string
01:25:24 <kmc> the string is given as the initial contents of the tape
01:25:35 <kmc> and the machine can enter an accept or reject state
01:26:11 <kmc> or, you can talk about Turing machines implementing functions, in which case the input is the starting tape and the output is the final tape
01:28:07 <kmc> Turing machines which accept/reject strings give you the computational classes R (recursive languages) and RE (recursively enumerable languages)
01:28:55 <kmc> a language is just a set of strings
01:29:17 <kmc> a language is in RE if there exists a TM which accepts all strings in the language
01:29:24 <kmc> a language is in R if there exists a TM which accepts all strings in the language, and rejects all strings not in the language
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01:30:51 <kmc> if the initial tape is always blank then you cannot use your TMs to define languages; however they are still interesting in other ways, for example deciding whether one halts is still uncomputable
01:32:13 <kmc> in fact there is an alternative definition of RE which uses TMs that have blank input and a second write-only 'output tape'
01:33:22 <kmc> in that formulation, a language L is RE iff there's some TM such that any string in L is eventually output by the TM
01:33:36 <kmc> exercise: prove that the two definitions of RE are equivalent
01:33:58 <elliott> thank you, professor kmc
01:36:17 <kmc> when i said 'accepts all strings in the language' i should have also said 'and no others'
01:36:32 <kmc> thelliott
01:38:02 <elliott> thofessor kmc
01:38:24 <ion> thall
01:38:45 <elliott> thion
01:39:08 <elliott> thaxiom of choice
01:39:44 <quintopia> thod it's over
01:40:46 <elliott> the lord
01:40:47 <elliott> wait.
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02:25:26 <RocketJSquirrel> Hexhiom of choice.
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02:46:38 <coppro> I was asleep for several hours and nothing happened Oo
02:47:23 <RocketJSquirrel> pooppy: Nothing exists while you slumber.
02:47:28 <RocketJSquirrel> We are merely your delusions.
02:49:13 <coppro> oh ok
02:49:16 <coppro> hi elliott
02:51:41 <elliott> hi
03:01:29 <quintopia> halp!
03:02:43 <quintopia> what is the minimum value of x such that if i adversarily give you x of the n^2+2 "obvious" data about an n-category venn diagram, you can completely solve it?
03:04:07 <coppro> define an 'n-category Venn diagram'
03:04:31 <quintopia> strike that n^2+2 part. that's too subjective.
03:05:48 <quintopia> coppro: a set of n finite sets in a finite universe where all the elements are indistinguishable except by which of these sets they are members of
03:10:46 <coppro> so you have n sets
03:11:28 <quintopia> yes
03:11:30 <coppro> call the set of these sets S
03:11:36 <quintopia> ok
03:12:19 <coppro> what is the least x so that, given a function from P -> N, where P \subseteq P(S), defined by taking the size of the intersection of those sets, you can extend the function to be total on P(S)?
03:12:26 <elliott> 4
03:12:51 <quintopia> basically, yes
03:13:03 <elliott> i was joking
03:13:07 <coppro> 2^n-n+1
03:13:15 <quintopia> how do you get that?
03:13:28 <coppro> Because it's just a system of linear equations
03:13:55 <coppro> And there are 2^n powersets, n of which contain a given set
03:14:04 <coppro> no wait I can't count
03:14:06 <coppro> lol
03:14:11 <coppro> 2^(n-1)+1
03:14:27 <coppro> you can drop the +1 if you aren't considering the empty set
03:15:28 <quintopia> um. would keeping the +1 account for the elements in the universe that are in none of the sets?
03:15:43 <quintopia> aka "the set of all elements not in any set we care about"
03:16:17 <quintopia> this formula isnt jibing with the base cases i have
03:16:46 <quintopia> cuz it takes 6 to solve n=3
03:18:51 <quintopia> i'm having trouble visualizing the generalized system
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03:23:12 <coppro> hmm... how do you get that it takes 6 to solve n=3?
03:30:57 <quintopia> hmm i don't actually.
03:31:19 <quintopia> i have a problem where 7 are given
03:31:35 <quintopia> i would have guessed 2^n-1 as the formula based on that
03:32:53 <quintopia> so how did you get 2^(n-1)+1?
03:42:21 <quintopia> Found it: http://mdm4u1.wetpaint.com/page/5.1+Organized+Counting+with+Venn+Diagrams
03:44:19 <quintopia> 2^n-1 is correct
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04:35:25 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9740747/android-application-will-rock-the-world
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05:29:25 <Sgeo> tswett, elliott monqy update
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05:45:23 <zzo38> Hello
05:45:54 <elliott> hello
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07:04:03 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/ this is completely impossible
07:11:20 <elliott> aaaargh
07:12:44 <shachaf> elliott: Can you make it so that people stop bringing up xmonad as an example of a Haskell project?
07:15:47 -!- cheater has joined.
07:17:21 <elliott> shachaf: Why?
07:25:25 <shachaf> elliott: Because it's annoying. :-(
07:26:55 <elliott> shachaf: Why?
07:35:08 * Sgeo wants examples of Common Lisp projects
07:35:53 <elliott> 1.
07:35:55 <elliott> 2.
07:35:56 <elliott> 3.
07:36:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I suck at that game
07:38:17 <elliott> Not as much as me.
07:38:22 <elliott> I've got to like 20 seconds in. :(
07:54:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Golf&diff=24233&oldid=16338 sigh
07:58:58 <monqy> :(
08:01:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27%27 i don't want these to exist
08:01:51 <monqy> why do they exist
08:04:33 <Sgeo> Wait, what's the complain against generic superclass? (Except that Java's isn't actually effective due to not containing primitives)
08:04:52 <Sgeo> Java'' is just nonsensical
08:05:35 <Sgeo> Oh, without generics
08:06:05 <Sgeo> Isn't that just called old Java?
08:07:33 <zzo38> I suggest merging the articles into a single article.
08:14:01 <elliott> Then we'd have one article that's twice as bad!
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08:18:09 <shachaf> elliott: But it would also be twice as good.
08:18:49 <zzo38> And you wouldn't have two articles like that.
08:20:46 <elliott> shachaf: How good are you at that game?
08:21:02 <shachaf> What game?
08:21:12 <shachaf> Oh, hexawhatever?
08:21:19 <shachaf> Probably worse than you.
08:21:28 <shachaf> So you can feel happy about it.
08:30:05 <elliott> :(
08:50:48 <elliott> Aargh, now everything is rotating hexagonally in my mind.
08:53:35 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know System.Random defines a monad?
09:06:01 <shachaf> elliott: Ꙭ
09:07:04 <elliott> What.
09:09:16 <Sgeo> DOUBLE MONOCULAR O
09:10:12 <Sgeo> Or maybe that's CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DOUBLE MONOCULAR O, the rather bizzare way in which I chose to determine it was rather silly
09:11:26 <Sgeo> I pasted that character into another channel for no reason, THEN realized it could look like something other than eyes
09:17:27 <shachaf> elliott: WHY IS MY LAPTOP SO HOT
09:17:42 <shachaf> elliott: What steps could I have taken in the relatively recent past to avoid this problem
09:18:53 <elliott> You know, I don't think the effort I put into responding to things shachaf says pays off.
09:19:14 <Sgeo> shachaf, you could stop posting ASCII boobies?
09:19:42 <Sgeo> (Note: Not actually intended to help with an issue of laptop heating)
09:20:03 <elliott> "boobies"? Is Sgeo 3?
09:20:26 <Sgeo> I have no idea why I chose that word.
09:20:51 <shachaf> I think the word is "eyes".
09:23:24 <zzo38> Is not ASCII, isn't it?
09:23:36 <Sgeo> zzo38, indeed, it is not ASCII
09:23:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Extended ASCII
09:25:17 <elliott> Wait, Rayman Origins is coming out for PCs?
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09:32:02 <shachaf> elliott: Is Typeable evil?
09:34:08 <elliott> Are you evil?
09:34:30 <shachaf> elliott: Is Blizzard evil?
09:34:37 <Sgeo> Is Wikia evil?
09:34:43 <shachaf> They put nasty always-online DRM in Diablo III.
09:34:49 <shachaf> Why, Blizzard? Whizzard?
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09:54:12 <kmc> java's so stupid for not boxing primitives
09:54:21 <kmc> instead they should have put 10 years of research into automatic unboxing
09:54:31 <kmc> and then exposed the unboxed versions anyway because people neeeed speeeeed
09:55:50 <elliott> They should have just boxed them.
09:55:52 <shachaf> kmc: Is that in response to anything in particular?
09:56:00 <kmc> it's what GHC did ;)
09:56:11 <kmc> kids these days, you have it so easy
09:56:15 <elliott> After all, applets Swing would seal Java's reputation for slowness.
09:56:19 <shachaf> Boxed values in Haskell are very different from boxed values in Java.
09:56:25 <elliott> So they could sacrifice unboxed primitives and not lose much in terms of speed rep.
09:56:32 <kmc> back in my day every function had to start with a guard | x `seq` y `seq` z `seq` False = undefined
09:56:35 <kmc> EVERY FUNCTION.
09:56:36 <elliott> *applets and Swing
09:56:52 <shachaf> When was your day?
09:56:54 <shachaf> 2007?
09:57:05 <kmc> i started learning Haskell in 2006
09:57:21 <shachaf> Wow, what a dinosaur.
09:57:31 <kmc> boxing serves a common purpose in Haskell and Java
09:57:34 <shachaf> 2006 was 6 years ago. :-(
09:57:35 <elliott> What? That's only one or two years earlier than me.
09:57:42 <kmc> which is to enable polymorphism
09:57:45 <shachaf> elliott: What a dinosaur.
09:57:48 <kmc> yes, i'm not actually an old-timer, it just amuses me to say such things
09:58:04 <shachaf> elliott and I first joined #haskell within a week of each other.
09:58:06 <elliott> kmc must be like 7. :(
09:58:15 <kmc> aiui you can't have an ArrayList<int> for roughly the same reason you can't have an [Int#]
09:58:18 <elliott> shachaf: No, you first joined #haskell in 2002, and are 28.
09:58:22 <elliott> These are facts I know.
09:58:50 <shachaf> Apparently I was wrong.
09:58:50 <kmc> but maybe these days ArrayList<int> is secret code for ArrayList<Integer>?
09:59:13 <kmc> i know some automatic conversions were added in Java [1.]5
09:59:15 <shachaf> Just do what C++ did.
09:59:20 <shachaf> It's foolproof.
09:59:40 <kmc> better fool, etc
09:59:59 <shachaf> elliott: nickserv says I registered on Freenode in 2004.
10:00:04 * shachaf is such a dinosaur. :-(
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10:00:28 <elliott> That's because NickServ reset in 2004.
10:00:33 <elliott> You actually registered your nick in 2001.
10:00:37 <elliott> FACTS I KNOW.
10:00:51 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, Java should basically just have been Lisp instead.
10:00:54 <elliott> Then it would have been good
10:00:56 <kmc> of course
10:00:56 <elliott> *.
10:01:11 <kmc> it would be the Most Powerful Language ™
10:01:34 <shachaf> Little-known fact: John McCarthy invented Java in 1957.
10:01:49 <elliott> I just want to say that whoever came up with the <> syntax for C++ templates should, e.g. start a home for orphaned kittens or something.
10:01:56 <elliott> If they want a good afterlife.
10:02:05 <elliott> No, not a home. A hospital.
10:02:10 <elliott> A hospital for injured, orphaned kittens.
10:02:14 <shachaf> Then he hid the manuscript describing it, which was only rediscovered by James Gosling in 1995.
10:02:16 <kmc> john mccarthy richard nixon studebaker television
10:02:40 <shachaf> elliott: What's wrong with that syntax?
10:02:52 <shachaf> The only improvement they could make would be to add close tags at the end of a template definition.
10:03:07 <kmc> elliott, did you know that interpreting >> as double close template rather than right shift can change a valid C++03 program into another valid program which does something different?
10:03:08 <shachaf> template<typename T> struct Foo { ... } template</typename T>;
10:03:42 <elliott> kmc: So C++11 changed the meaning of existing programs?
10:03:46 <elliott> shachaf: Because <> are The Ugliest Brackets.
10:03:52 <elliott> Especially when nested.
10:03:55 <kmc> think so, i doubt that's the only way either
10:03:55 <elliott> Oh, you were being unserious.
10:03:56 <elliott> Figures.
10:04:12 <shachaf> «» for template brackets!
10:04:14 <kmc> std::cout << (Y<X< 1>>::c >::c>::c) << '\n';
10:04:17 <kmc> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG21/docs/papers/2005/n1757.html
10:04:22 <kmc> shachaf, nooooooo
10:04:45 <shachaf> kmc will need to find ever more esoteric quotation marks.
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10:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I am not going to put up with SMBC any longer.
10:04:56 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It is now STRUCK FROM MY SUBSCRIPTIONS
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10:05:24 <kmc> shachaf, 「i've always been fond of these」
10:05:47 <kmc> shachaf, oh hey 「halfwidth」
10:06:24 <shachaf> That's halfway there! But I prefer: zerowidth
10:06:39 <shachaf> Hmm, that joke doesn't really work when you can't tell there are quotation marks around it.
10:06:40 <kmc> i will use zero-width non-breaking non-space
10:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know you could put "typedef" almost anywhere in a type definition?
10:08:32 <shachaf> int typedef x;
10:08:41 <kmc> great
10:08:44 <shachaf> struct foo { ... } typedef foo_t;
10:09:03 <shachaf> That latter one is actually a reasonable-looking syntax.
10:09:21 <kmc> struct foo { ... } `typedef` foo_t;
10:09:27 <shachaf> Hmm.
10:10:08 * shachaf was trying to figure out a way to make Ruby accept that syntax but doubts that it's possible. :-(
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10:10:35 <kmc> well, you got it to segfault, right?
10:10:42 <kmc> just exploit the interpreter and monkeypatch the parsing routines
10:10:51 <kmc> just exploit the interpreter and monkeypatch the parsing routines
10:10:59 <kmc> shit, a glitch in the matrix
10:11:05 <shachaf> But the segfault doesn't happen in 1.9.3. :-(
10:11:11 <kmc> submit a patch
10:11:28 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, your time is up.
10:11:34 <shachaf> Where should I go eat a burrito in SF?
10:12:07 <kmc> http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&cid=13452708831306342560
10:12:40 <kmc> also, were you the one who told me about Maru Ichi in Mountain View?
10:12:48 <shachaf> I mentioned it, at least.
10:12:52 <shachaf> Did you go?
10:12:53 <kmc> (well, I think at least three people told me)
10:12:54 <kmc> yes!
10:12:56 <kmc> it was really good!
10:13:31 <shachaf> Did you have the kuro ramen?
10:13:36 <kmc> think so
10:13:40 <shachaf> I hear it's very good.
10:13:49 <shachaf> Their one vegetarian soup is also good.
10:13:58 <elliott> <shachaf> kmc: Did you know you could put "typedef" almost anywhere in a type definition?
10:13:58 <elliott> <shachaf> int typedef x;
10:13:59 <elliott> Are you serious?
10:14:31 <shachaf> elliott: "typedef" is a "storage class specifier" syntactically.
10:14:33 <shachaf> Like "const".
10:14:51 <shachaf> Er, not like "const".
10:14:53 <kmc> int typedef const x;
10:14:55 <shachaf> Like "statuc".
10:15:00 <shachaf> s/u/i/
10:15:36 <shachaf> Hmm. I'm going to be in SF Mon and Wed.
10:15:39 <shachaf> But 16th St. is a bit far.
10:15:42 <kmc> what for?
10:15:48 <kmc> you can ride the BART
10:16:08 <shachaf> True. I'll see how much time I'll have.
10:16:21 <kmc> where in SF will you be?
10:16:29 <elliott> const typedef int foo;
10:16:33 <elliott> The typedef can't change.
10:16:37 <kmc> elliott++
10:16:48 <fizzie> Storage-class-specifiers are pretty much identical to type-specifiers, type-qualifiers and function-specifiers, syntactically, so "like const" is not so far off.
10:17:18 <shachaf> fizzie: You can't int (*typedef foo)();
10:17:55 <kmc> thank god
10:17:56 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not what I said.
10:18:02 <fizzie> "inline" is a function-specifier.
10:18:32 <elliott> shachaf: But if you could!
10:18:34 <shachaf> But "const" *does* fit there.
10:18:48 <shachaf> kmc: Mostly pretty close to the 4th St. Caltrain, I think.
10:18:54 <shachaf> Which is my main reference point in SF. :-)
10:19:22 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:19:32 <kmc> 'Driving directions to 16, Mission, TX 78572'
10:19:34 <kmc> no, google
10:20:00 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:20:05 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:20:07 <shachaf> Get your directions right.
10:20:14 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:20:21 <shachaf> Hamericans.
10:20:30 <kmc> shachaf, I would walk to Mission and take a bus on Mission
10:20:32 <kmc> but i like walking
10:20:42 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:21:02 <kmc> however "32, cambridge ma" is useful
10:21:06 * shachaf doesn't mind walking.
10:21:09 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:21:21 <shachaf> The question is whether I'll have enough time.
10:21:24 <kmc> and it even gets the city name right!
10:22:02 <shachaf> Why is it that when I mark an email unread in Gmail, the Android Gmail client beeps?
10:22:05 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:22:19 <shachaf> I don't need that notification, Android Gmail client. I just marked that email unread. I know about its existence.
10:22:25 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:22:26 <kmc> we all living in amerika
10:22:29 <kmc> amerika ist wunderbar
10:22:51 <elliott> ...
10:22:51 <elliott> ...
10:22:53 <elliott> Ha, Americans.
10:22:56 <elliott> Dammit.That was only
10:22:59 <elliott> meant tob e one ellipsis.
10:23:03 <elliott> I cant computer
10:23:46 <elliott> hello.
10:23:59 <shachaf> So I can make Ruby handle all of: uint32_t multiple, values; char string[12], val; uint32_t bit:1, fields:7; char matrix[256][256]; char *ptrs[5], byte, *ptr_matrix[8][8]; bool **ptr_to_ptr; uint32_t * ptr_array_with_whitespace[256]; char byte_arr_with_other_whitespace [256];
10:24:20 <elliott> monqy made another edit! Im so proude.
10:24:56 <elliott> @tell monqy Well done , son .
10:24:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:25:00 <shachaf> kmc: What's the best train?
10:26:02 <kmc> of them all?
10:26:06 <shachaf> Yes.
10:26:11 <kmc> eep
10:26:15 <kmc> i don't know
10:26:18 <kmc> i am no train expert
10:26:31 <elliott> the best train
10:26:33 <elliott> is
10:26:41 <elliott> the jumbo jet train
10:26:43 <elliott> it can train
10:26:44 <elliott> AND fly
10:26:55 <elliott> it could be just going along happily training
10:26:55 <shachaf> kmc is no train expert⸘
10:26:56 <elliott> and then
10:26:59 <elliott> lift up into the air
10:27:04 <elliott> and find another railway to land on
10:27:06 <shachaf> My worldview is ruined. :-(
10:27:07 <elliott> it could happen to you
10:27:11 <shachaf> Hey, who flipped my interrobang?
10:27:19 <elliott> i feel as if my wisdom is not being appreciated here
10:27:20 <shachaf> ⸘How did that happen‽
10:27:30 <kmc> the first TGV was turbine powered
10:28:07 <elliott> -- kmc "no train expert" kmc
10:28:33 <shachaf> elliott: kmc's last name is McAllister.
10:28:39 <shachaf> kmc "no train expert" McAllister
10:28:56 <elliott> No.
10:28:58 <elliott> It's kmc.
10:29:05 <kmc> km"kmc"c
10:29:11 <elliott> No.
10:29:13 <elliott> kmc "kmc" kmc
10:29:25 <elliott> #1=(kmc #1# kmc)
10:29:28 <elliott> (Is that the right syntax?)
10:29:43 <shachaf> Common Lisp is never the right syntax.
10:29:49 <kmc> yaml has syntax for that
10:29:58 <elliott> YAML has syntax for everything.
10:30:00 <shachaf> Yes, & and *
10:30:23 <shachaf> YADGL
10:30:33 <shachaf> Did you know "YAML" originally stood for "Yet Another Markup Language"?
10:30:40 <kmc> yes
10:30:50 <elliott> shachaf is a YAML MVP.
10:31:00 <kmc> employee of the month
10:31:02 <elliott> He's got all the YAML facts.
10:31:22 <shachaf> elliott: I can't help it! I have YAML pushed on me by -- certain members of the YAML community.
10:31:31 <kmc> the radical YAML agenda
10:31:46 <kmc> they want to teach YAML in public schools
10:31:48 <elliott> shachaf: Plural?
10:32:03 <elliott> Did you know I once tried to make a Lisp dialect whose syntax was YAML? Spoiler: it didn't work out because YAML is terrible.
10:32:42 <shachaf> 02ED7 CJK RADICAL YAML
10:32:45 <kmc> oh, I could use ⸘‽ for quotes!
10:32:57 <elliott> shachaf: You should tell those certain members that OGDL is way nicer.
10:33:08 <shachaf> elliott: Well, mostly just one of them.
10:33:59 <shachaf> Silly elliott, YAML is for data
10:34:12 <elliott> OGDL isn't?
10:34:13 <kmc> code is data, dude
10:34:15 <elliott> It's even in the name.
10:34:17 <elliott> Oh, the Lisp thing.
10:34:30 <kmc> and codata is cocode
10:34:50 <shachaf> The "co" Desktop Environment.
10:35:01 <elliott> kmc: *de
10:35:56 <elliott> Did you know that smuggling weasels is illegal in 24 states, including Alaska, Hawaii and the Philippines?
10:37:52 <elliott> shachaf: If you want, you can join #haskell.
10:38:03 <shachaf> elliott: If you want, you can ENLARG3 Y0UR MORTGAG3 QUICK AT xn--80afbi5amoq.info
10:38:09 <shachaf> Curses, you beat me to it.
10:39:01 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, you're meant to report spam in #freenode, right?
10:39:05 <elliott> I always forget how these things work.
10:39:22 <shachaf> I think you're meant to not care.
10:39:24 <elliott> * Fifo2 (58d42422@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #freenode
10:39:24 <elliott> <elliott> spammer in #haskell: <Fifo> raichoo: If you want, you can /join ##iPhoneFifo.
10:39:29 <elliott> LOOK AT MY EXCELLENT TIMING.
10:39:35 <shachaf> APATHY will lead us to VICTORY
10:39:48 <elliott> shachaf: But if I do this, then I sometimes get personal attacks from the spammers.
10:39:50 <elliott> It's hilarious.
10:40:00 <kmc> dist_man_MANS = mosh.1 mosh-client.1 mosh-server.1
10:40:02 <kmc> moar mans
10:40:26 <shachaf> kmc: autowhatever should have a pluralization engine like Rails.
10:40:34 <kmc> yes
10:40:38 <kmc> dist_man_MEN
10:40:51 <elliott> <Fifo2> elliott: I'm NOT a spammer!
10:40:51 <elliott> <elliott> well... you asked someone to join your completely unrelated channel out of the blue... which is spam
10:41:02 <elliott> My one mistake:
10:41:03 <shachaf> elliott: How exciting.
10:41:13 <elliott> Spam is actually a canned meat product.
10:41:15 <kmc> when I was in SF i saw a bird that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but isn't
10:41:18 <shachaf> Now I don't even need to report spammers to deal with their complaints.
10:41:20 <elliott> On this technicality Fifo shall ROAM FREE
10:41:20 <kmc> (a duck)
10:41:35 <shachaf> kmc: Don't tell all the Ruby people there!
10:41:40 <kmc> it was a coot!
10:41:41 <elliott> <Fifo2> elliott: Fuck you!
10:41:43 <elliott> You're welcome, shachaf.
10:42:32 <kmc> elliott, in PM?
10:42:35 <kmc> i don't see it in logz
10:42:36 <elliott> No, in #freenode.
10:42:40 <kmc> ah heh
10:42:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:42:50 <kmc> why would the spammer be in #freenode
10:42:57 <elliott> They joined about 5 seconds before I reported it.
10:43:06 <elliott> Guilty conscience, perhaps?
10:43:11 <elliott> Maybe they're just trying to see how quickly they can get k-lined.
10:43:18 <shachaf> kmc: Wouldn't it be easier to keep a #haskell tab open than to look at logs?
10:43:23 <kmc> i tried to get k-lined but all i got was this lousy t-shirt
10:43:26 <elliott> I like that they said "hi" before spamming, though.
10:43:30 <elliott> And waited for a reply.
10:43:33 <elliott> Mighty considerate of them.
10:43:39 <oerjan> kmc: so you just got t-lined, then?
10:43:44 <kmc> shachaf, that would reduce the energy barrier of replying to a dangerous level
10:43:46 <elliott> /kline oerjan
10:44:01 <oerjan> a k-shirt might be something weird to wear
10:44:09 <elliott> kmc: What if I set up a bot in here that lets you send messages to #haskell with a single command?
10:44:11 <kmc> perhaps i should patch XChat to forbid sending messages to #haskell
10:44:13 <elliott> Would you leave?
10:44:18 <kmc> probably not
10:44:26 <shachaf> C++11 supports "for (int &x : array)"?
10:44:33 <kmc> yes, it's the best
10:44:35 -!- cheater has joined.
10:44:38 <shachaf> I guess only for arrays whose length is known at compile-time.
10:44:41 <elliott> kmc: What if I set up a bot in here that forwarded everything you say to #haskell?
10:44:43 <kmc> works for iteratable things too
10:44:50 <kmc> elliott, what if Fuck you!
10:45:08 * elliott hurt.
10:45:12 <kmc> :(
10:45:12 * elliott report kmc to staffers.
10:45:20 <kmc> elliott, if you want you can join #esoteric
10:45:26 <elliott> If you want, you can /query kmc.
10:45:35 <kmc> we can dance if we want to
10:45:36 <elliott> Then you'll be talking TO YOURSELF.
10:45:52 <shachaf> Talking to yourself in /query is an interesting experience with somewhat high latency.
10:46:17 <elliott> I take this to mean that shachaf regularly /queries himself.
10:46:24 <elliott> Enough to notice the oddity of increased latency.
10:46:43 <shachaf> elliott: Little-known fact: I'm kmc.
10:46:56 <shachaf> I have to keep the /queries going so the NSA won't suspect anything.
10:47:20 <kmc> # chmod 777 mosh-client
10:47:20 <kmc> # ls -l
10:47:20 <kmc> ----rwxr-x system sdcard_rw 5081976 2012-03-14 22:11 mosh-client
10:47:23 <kmc> did i mention i hate android
10:47:37 <shachaf> The NSA: The most intrusive of the "A"s.
10:47:50 <elliott> No, that'st he FBI.
10:47:52 <elliott> *that's the
10:48:17 <shachaf> kmc: Does the Mosh exist for the Android? Or are you porting it?
10:48:21 <kmc> porting it
10:48:24 <kmc> kinda
10:49:14 <shachaf> kmc: Is this why you were writing ARM shellcode?
10:49:18 <kmc> no
10:49:26 <elliott> So, what is the Mosh?
10:49:33 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh
10:50:24 <elliott> More like: Mostly Shit.
10:50:28 <kmc> burn
10:50:29 <elliott> Or MoENTIRELY Shit???
10:50:41 <elliott> I do not like how it links to http://mosh.mit.edu which redirects back to the page itself.
10:50:45 <elliott> That makes me want to hurt things. :(
10:50:55 <kmc> you have a low anger threshold
10:51:09 <shachaf> It's the mosh that broke the camel's back.
10:51:11 <elliott> Okay, that prediction thing is cool.
10:51:15 <shachaf> Where elliott is the camel.
10:51:25 <elliott> Although the fact that line-editing is done remotely is just a flaw of SSH anyway.
10:51:41 <kmc> i wouldn't blame SSH in general
10:51:44 <kmc> in cooked mode, sure
10:51:55 <kmc> but mosh's prediction works even in fullscreen curses apps
10:51:56 <shachaf> elliott: What I mean to say is: You're a camel.
10:52:10 <shachaf> I would've said that in another channel, except that... Oh.
10:52:14 <elliott> kmc: Well, what I mean is that the entire SSH model is broken and everything is wrong and sucks, but I decided to focus my complaint.
10:52:24 <kmc> if by 'SSH' you mean 'Unix' then sure
10:52:27 <elliott> Yes.
10:52:33 <elliott> Again, focus.
10:52:38 <shachaf> Does @ support SSH?
10:52:48 <elliott> No.
10:52:59 <shachaf> Trick question: @ doesn't support anything
10:53:02 <elliott> :'(
10:53:12 <oerjan> it supports the revolutionary @sec
10:53:34 <shachaf> @sec id
10:53:34 <lambdabot> id x = x
10:53:35 <elliott> I think I @told oerjan some things in the log. Maybe?
10:54:04 <oerjan> nope, that was yesterday
10:54:06 <shachaf> kmc: Can you help me reset my sleep schedule?
10:54:16 <shachaf> It's broken.
10:54:30 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, I don't need mosh because I have a LOCAL ORAGNIC FARM-GROWN SERVER in my HOMELAND.
10:54:43 <elliott> And I'm prepared to be UNBEARABLY SMUG ABOUT IT.
10:55:27 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ sudo apt-get install mosh
10:55:27 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
10:55:27 <elliott> Reading package lists... Done
10:55:27 <elliott> Building dependency tree
10:55:27 <elliott> Reading state information... Done
10:55:27 <elliott> E: Unable to locate package mosh
10:55:31 <elliott> It's not even in the Best Debian Release.
10:55:40 <elliott> (That's woody.)
10:55:52 <shachaf> It is. You just need to use äpt-gët
10:55:57 <elliott> By woody, I mean hamm.
10:56:01 <elliott> hamm is the best Debian release.
10:56:05 <elliott> What was Debian 1.0 called?
10:56:18 <oerjan> elliott: why are you doing mad-libs
10:56:20 <shachaf> There WAS NO DEBIAN 1.0
10:56:32 <elliott> oerjan: What?
10:56:32 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure Potato was the best release.
10:56:57 <elliott> "Debian 1.0 was never released: Accidently InfoMagic, a CD vendor, shipped the development release of Debian and entitled it 1.0. On December 11th 1995, Debian and InfoMagic jointly announced that this release was screwed."
10:56:58 <elliott> Awesome.
10:56:58 <oerjan> elliott: <elliott> kmc: Anyway, I don't need mosh because I have a LOCAL ORAGNIC FARM-GROWN SERVER in my HOMELAND. <elliott> And I'm prepared to be UNBEARABLY SMUG ABOUT IT.
10:57:10 <elliott> oerjan: That's an incredibly specific mad-lib template.
10:57:18 <elliott> shachaf: OK, but Debian 1.1 was released.
10:57:21 <elliott> buzz, apparently.
10:57:34 <shachaf> I was in #llvm on oftc recently.
10:57:48 <shachaf> That channel made me feel bad.
10:57:52 -!- nortti has joined.
10:57:55 <elliott> Why?
10:58:11 <elliott> Heh, Debian 1.1 didn't come out until after Ian Murdock stopped being project lead. An eventful career.
10:58:29 <shachaf> Their SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO is so high that even asking my VAGUELY ON-TOPIC QUESTION decreased it.
10:58:48 <elliott> apt only came out in 1999?!
10:59:11 <elliott> shachaf: #haskell's signal-to-noise ratio isn't that bad right now! Admittedly, they're not talking about Haskell.
10:59:18 <elliott> <Rc43> gaze__, hm, I am newbe in sound, five minutes ago I just used 6 parametrix EQs per a track with statically gained notes
10:59:18 <elliott> <Rc43> gaze__, so If I coded a plugin, I did the same, without any analysis
10:59:18 <elliott> <gaze__> I'd use the D vst api or the python one, and play with filters in matlab or something
10:59:20 <elliott> Haskell.
10:59:26 <oerjan> now shachaf is doing mad-libs too. freaky.
10:59:29 <elliott> <gaze__> I mean you could write a haskell vst api but haskell doesn't buy you anything here
10:59:33 <elliott> Oblig. "other than on-topicality".
10:59:39 <elliott> kmc must appreciate my #haskell commentary.
10:59:40 <elliott> I know I do.
11:00:28 <elliott> "Please, don't use plain String's (especially when you are processing >100m files). Just replace them with ByteString's"
11:00:29 <shachaf> oerjan: That was the point, yes.
11:00:29 <elliott> *sigh*
11:00:54 <elliott> Bonus from the code they suggest: " filename <- liftM getArgs"
11:01:09 <oerjan> shachaf: ah i guess i MISINTERPRETED it AS A COINCIDENCE
11:01:34 <elliott> Wow, woody -> sarge took an awful long time.
11:01:45 <elliott> Wait, not that long.
11:01:47 <elliott> But longish.
11:01:54 <oerjan> just a CASE of bad GIRAFFE
11:02:15 -!- Jafet has joined.
11:02:28 <shachaf> elliott: You don't remember the time when Debian had a REPUTATION of never RELEASING?
11:02:44 <elliott> I DO remember THAT TIME.
11:02:52 <kmc> http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/automake.html#Complete
11:02:55 <elliott> Albeit I DIDN'T REALLY EXIST until AFTER IT.
11:02:57 <kmc> zardoz_SOURCES = main.c head.c float.c vortex9.c gun.c
11:03:21 <elliott> kmc: "Let's suppose you just finished writing zardoz, a program to make your head float from vortex to vortex."
11:03:27 <elliott> No system is complete without a copy.
11:03:36 <kmc> how else will you control the outlands
11:03:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is LIKELY the MOST IMPORTANT THING you will READ all SEPTEMBER: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:04:07 <kmc> zarday 3 5 2, twenty brutals exterminated
11:04:18 <fizzie> The Penis is evil! The Penis shoots Seeds, and makes new Life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the Gun shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill! Zardoz has spoken.
11:05:10 <kmc> the GNU project will touch-teach you
11:05:20 <fizzie> "KGlobal::locale::Warning your global KLocale is being recreated with a valid main component instead of a fake component, this usually means you tried to call i18n related functions before your main component was created. You should not do that since it most likely will not work"
11:05:49 <elliott> zzo? is that you?
11:06:16 <kmc> that's a bit more polite than gnome's usual "GObject: *** CRITICAL:: FATAL ..."
11:06:20 <shachaf> C++ didn't have "long long int" before C++11?
11:06:28 <fizzie> I don't know why these warnings are so enthusiastic! "Attempt to use QAction "view_projects" with KXMLGUIFactory!"
11:06:29 <kmc> scrolling by at hundreds per second with no apparent consequence
11:06:32 <elliott> kmc: I found a bug in mosh.
11:06:37 <kmc> oh yeah?
11:06:41 <elliott> It's written in C++.
11:06:45 * kmc rimshot
11:07:21 <elliott> I do wonder if the GNOME people have ever thought to look into those critical errors.
11:07:42 <Jafet> Who cares about those critics.
11:07:58 <kmc> haters gonna hate
11:08:21 <oerjan> CRITICAL:: FATAL mismatched parentheses
11:08:28 <shachaf> When I'm cloning something from GitHub, is there a reason to prefer https:// or git://
11:08:34 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure what git: is, really.
11:08:51 <Jafet> Self-aggrandization?
11:08:58 <shachaf> Apparently git: has its own protocol.
11:09:02 <elliott> shachaf: Just use the default one it presents you.
11:09:07 <elliott> Which is https.
11:09:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:10:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:10:34 <elliott> shachaf: I have headache.
11:10:49 <elliott> I am... in possession of headache.
11:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> how much headach
11:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> e
11:11:57 <shachaf> Too many to count!
11:12:23 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, you're in the mosh THANKS file.
11:12:27 <shachaf> Right after Richard Stallman.
11:12:58 * shachaf wonders whether kmc and nelhage are secretly the same person.
11:13:03 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb).
11:13:09 <oerjan> i think there's something weird about being next to richard stallman, but i cannot quite put my toe on it
11:13:25 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:13:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: headache am uncountable noun
11:13:40 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:13:57 <elliott> #freenode is an interesting place.
11:14:10 <elliott> That's not an invitation to join.
11:14:49 <kmc> shachaf, why would we be the same person?
11:15:32 <shachaf> I was thinking of something along the lines of "have they ever been seen together", but in this case I guess you're always seen together.
11:15:33 <fizzie> QLayout: Attempting to add QLayout "" to QFrame "", which already has a layout
11:16:46 <shachaf> Wait, ./configure builds and compiles a separate C program for uint16_t and uint32_t and ... and ...?
11:16:54 <kmc> yes, that's how configure works
11:16:56 <shachaf> Why can't it do a binary search?
11:17:14 <elliott> kmc: I found another bug in mosh!
11:17:16 <shachaf> I mean, I'm not surprised that it does that, given that the lines are separate and come after the other.
11:17:21 <shachaf> s/af/one af/
11:17:46 <Jafet> shachaf: you're assuming that all systems, if they have uint8_t and uint32_t, have uint16_t
11:18:08 <elliott> kmc: It uses autoconf.
11:18:15 <kmc> elliott, you're so helpful
11:18:16 <Jafet> If systems were like that, we wouldn't need configure scripts
11:18:17 <shachaf> Jafet: No, I'm assuming that you can test all of those at once, and then check them individually if one of them fails.
11:18:24 <elliott> kmc: Let me know when they're fixed.
11:18:30 <kmc> kk
11:18:38 <kmc> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mosh-devel
11:18:39 <elliott> Jafet: Some would say we don't.
11:19:14 <elliott> kmc: Post troll messages to MIT mailing lists?! I'D BE LUCKY TO SURVIVE
11:19:51 <kmc> RMS regularly trolls the MIT CS department list
11:19:57 <Jafet> Is it failure? I wonder how many programs even care what named unsigned word sizes are available
11:20:09 <elliott> kmc: Yes, but he's immortal.
11:20:14 <elliott> Also, *rms.
11:20:15 <kmc> true
11:20:47 <elliott> Are archives of that list publicly available? I mean, watching rms embarrass himself is always fun.
11:20:53 <kmc> don't know
11:21:01 <shachaf> Jafet: The point is that if it needs the information and all four of those are available with overwhelming probability, can't it just do one check?
11:21:39 <elliott> shachaf: Being reasonable is not an autoconf design goal.
11:21:46 <shachaf> Maybe I should implement that and submit a patch to autoconf.
11:21:55 <shachaf> Think of how much time would be saved waiting on ./configure scripts.
11:22:02 <Jafet> Yes. Then again, you're assuming optimizing tendencies of people who write programs that write shell scripts.
11:22:10 <kmc> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html
11:22:17 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, for Cygwin users that might actually help.
11:22:22 <elliott> ./configure usually takes 30s there.
11:22:29 <shachaf> elliott: It takes too long everywhere.
11:22:33 <elliott> kmc: Seen & read & tshirt-bought.
11:22:54 <elliott> "Following your example, I might send the list an announcement whenever a new GNU program is written. That happens less often than babies are born, it does the world a lot more good, it reflects more conscious creativity and hard work, and some of the readers might actually find the information useful."
11:23:04 <elliott> I wonder if rms has ever felt like an ass.
11:23:05 <kmc> "Hundreds of thousands of babies are born every day. While the whole phenomenon is menacing, one of them by itself is not newsworthy."
11:23:09 <kmc> i think i would buy that on a tshirt
11:23:42 <elliott> [[
11:23:42 <elliott> Fuck you. -Paul Traina
11:23:43 <elliott> No, thanks. I don't want to have children. -RMS
11:23:43 <elliott> good -Peter Shipley
11:23:43 <elliott> ]]
11:23:57 <elliott> I must avoid reading the original messages behind these summaries.
11:24:00 <elliott> It would ruin them.
11:24:14 <kmc> i mean, he's not wrong that babies are overrated
11:25:10 <elliott> So's TV; that doesn't make Area Man any less annoying.
11:25:19 <kmc> yeah
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11:30:55 <fizzie> This thing keeps complaining to me.
11:30:59 <fizzie> "Application asked to unregister timer 0x72000001 which is not registered in this thread. Fix application."
11:31:16 <elliott> :D
11:32:03 <nortti> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php
11:35:31 <nortti> "You are Apple Dos. Simple and primitive with a good understanding of the common man. You're still a work in progress, but a good start."
11:37:52 <fizzie> I got TRSDOS in 2003.
11:38:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should retry to see if it has changed.
11:38:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, mooz was Windows 95 then. :p
11:38:43 <fizzie> And there were two other TRSDOSes on the channel where it was discussed.
11:39:12 <nortti> Because I am not completely sure about some questions I also sometimes get OS/2
11:39:19 <elliott> Well, Windows 95 is the perfect operating system, you know.
11:41:17 <elliott> http://www.bbspot.com/Images/News_Features/2003/01/os_quiz/windows_95.jpg
11:41:19 <elliott> See.
11:41:20 <elliott> Told you.
11:41:56 <fizzie> elliott: Incidentally, the very next comment from him after "arg, I'm windows 95" was about Slaves to Armok.
11:42:20 <fizzie> <@mooz> most people would implement the turning of gargoyles into stone in daylight by adding a condition
11:42:23 <fizzie> <@mooz> in armok one makes the gargoyle skin material react with sunlight
11:42:43 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I didn't interpret that as quiz talk at all.
11:42:56 <elliott> I thought you meant you acquired (and presumably started using) TRSDOS in 2003.
11:42:59 <elliott> And mooz used Windows 95.
11:43:04 <fizzie> Oh. No.
11:43:04 <elliott> And two other people in the channel used TRDOS too.
11:43:14 <elliott> In retrospect, that's... not the most likely thing.
11:43:27 <elliott> But, I mean.
11:43:28 <elliott> Finland.
11:44:11 <oerjan> land of snow, knife fights and killer robots
11:44:18 <elliott> <shachaf> PathFinder's ping style is awesome.
11:44:41 <shachaf> elliott: What?
11:44:53 <elliott> <shachaf> See #haskell.
11:45:03 <shachaf> <elliott> Oh.
11:45:19 <olsner> so apparently I'm windows 95
11:45:20 <nortti> elliott: I have used Amiga Workbench 1.3 as my main os in 2009 and I propably could use Apple DOS as my main os.
11:45:25 <shachaf> <elliott> If you want, you can /join #haskell
11:45:38 <fizzie> Oh, today I'm Apple DOS 3.1.
11:45:49 <elliott> nortti: Amiga in 2009?
11:45:57 <elliott> nortti: You're hardcore.
11:46:05 <elliott> Chris would be proud.
11:46:06 <fizzie> "Told U I was"
11:46:17 <nortti> elliott: What about DOS in 2010?
11:46:46 <fizzie> s/U/u/
11:47:00 <Jafet> If Amiga is hardcore, DOS is dubstep.
11:47:22 <shachaf> ... ./configure "checking whether build environment is sane" takes such a long time because it has a "sleep 1" in it.
11:47:37 <elliott> shachaf: No, it's just a really intense sanity test.
11:47:52 <shachaf> ./configure, psychlogist
11:48:24 <oerjan> if it doesn't drive you crazy, you're definitely sane
11:48:57 <nortti> I got Windows 95 when I answered the least likely choice for me.
11:50:53 <elliott> Did you know I once used Windows 95 as my only OS for ~a WHOLE WEEK?
11:51:34 <elliott> shachaf: Did you read about cmccann's iteratee-thing?
11:51:35 <shachaf> Did you know I once used Windows 95 as my only OS for ~a WHOLE LONG TIME?
11:51:42 <shachaf> And I was so excited about Windows 98.
11:51:50 <shachaf> Do you know what exciting features Windows 98 had?
11:51:56 <elliott> Windows 98 was like Windows 95 except terrible.
11:52:10 <nortti> elliott: I used Windows 95 as my only os for a year. After that I started using MS-DOS with DOSSHELL
11:52:18 <itidus21> I had fun with win 3.1
11:52:20 <shachaf> elliott: Windows 98 had the exciting Quick Launch bar!
11:52:23 <nortti> it was in 2004
11:52:57 <elliott> The only good thing about DOS is BASIC.
11:53:03 <shachaf> elliott: Windows 98 Hebrew Edition also reversed a bunch of things, so that the Close Restore Minimize buttons were on the left side and the Start Menu was on the right side.
11:54:08 <elliott> http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93_%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%99
11:54:12 <itidus21> i got qbasic 1.0 including nibbles.bas and gorilla.bas with dos (like everyone, i know)
11:54:14 <nortti> elliott: It is also fucking fast on hardware where Win95 crawls
11:54:19 <itidus21> i had a lot of fun with that
11:54:20 <elliott> RTL languages are terrifying.
11:54:55 <itidus21> i found the code of nibbles and gorilla to be too difficult to understand though
11:55:02 <elliott> shachaf: didn't answer my question. :(
11:55:05 <elliott> s/://
11:55:23 <shachaf> elliott: What question -- oh.
11:55:25 <shachaf> Iteratees?
11:55:30 <shachaf> I don't read about iteratees.
11:55:31 <nortti> I got QBASIC 1.1 with DOS and installed Borland C++ 3.1 afterwards
11:55:35 <elliott> shachaf: They're not iteratees, though!
11:55:39 <elliott> shachaf: It's just linear logic.
11:55:48 <elliott> Except variables represent streams.
11:56:02 <elliott> And negation turns outputs into inputs.
11:56:09 <shachaf> Sounds CRAZY.
11:56:12 <itidus21> i eventually got given turbo pascal 6
11:56:14 <shachaf> Maybe I should read it.
11:56:42 <elliott> e.g. Stream (In a `Join` Out b) is a length-preserving (== always outputs one after reading one) transformation from streams of as to streams of bs.
11:56:47 <nortti> itidus21: is turbo pascal really as fast as they say
11:56:50 <itidus21> i started trying to do stuff with egavga.bgi graphics library but it was so unbearably slow the way i was using it
11:56:54 <elliott> But Stream (In a `Or` Out b) can read and write according to its own whims.
11:57:08 <elliott> (Stream (In a `Or` Out b `Or` Run m) is Pipe, supposedly.)
11:57:19 <elliott> Also you can zip them and things???
11:57:32 <itidus21> nortti: i wouldn't know. i'm just here in #esoteric as a tourist from newbie island
11:57:32 <fizzie> I got Borland C++ 4.52 on one of them CDs they used to tape onto the covers of PC magazines.
11:58:27 <itidus21> fizzie: oh yeah.. i got something like that too once was excited too.. but somehow disc got lost or something.
11:58:40 <nortti> I actually learned programming by reading trough my father's old programs written in C when I was 8.
11:59:09 <elliott> I learned programming when I was 8 too
11:59:12 <elliott> *too!
11:59:15 <elliott> Except that was in 2004.
11:59:50 <nortti> elliott: I lerned it in 2005
11:59:50 <itidus21> i had a train wreck of a time learning to program.. many would say i never learned :D
11:59:51 <fizzie> Actually, I wonder if I still have that disc. I seem to have "PC Plus SuperCD no. 43b" with full PartitionMagic 2.0 on it. It's worth £80!
12:00:05 <elliott> nortti: Oh. Not another person younger than me.
12:00:11 <elliott> There's too many of you now; I feel old.
12:00:23 <elliott> I was here when I was 11, you whipper-snappers!
12:00:26 <elliott> :(
12:00:39 <itidus21> fizzie: why is it worth so much?
12:00:55 <oerjan> elliott: don't worry, you can borrow my cane
12:01:00 <elliott> Thank you.
12:01:10 <fizzie> Ooh, truespace. "The legendary 3D package complete and unrestricted. As sold for £550."
12:01:18 <fizzie> (This is the July 1998 SuperCD.)
12:01:48 <shachaf> elliott: I LEARNED PROGRAMMING in Q4 2011
12:01:49 <shachaf> SO THERE
12:01:56 <shachaf> Actually I still don't know programming.
12:02:00 <fizzie> "The brand new SuperCede for Java Standard Edition is the fast way to create your own powerful JDK 1.1 applications for the Web. Worth £99 (provisional price)"
12:02:11 <fizzie> Man, I've got like £thousands worth of stuff here.
12:02:31 <shachaf> What's a £ worth these days?
12:02:38 <elliott> $NaN
12:02:54 <itidus21> fizzie: i recall some article talking about treasure chests in java games
12:03:13 <fizzie> Hey, I've got both trueSpace 1.0 on this SuperCD and trueSpace 3/SE on another.
12:03:42 <itidus21> i cant quite recall if that was the same magazine i got some kind of c++ with.. also some article about expert systems comes to mind
12:03:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can I have your seedies?
12:04:10 <fizzie> I can't find the Borland. :/ It was probably not in a jewel case so it's in some big pile of those.
12:04:12 <itidus21> maybe i was in hospital or something at the time so they got me magazines
12:04:20 <shachaf> <elliott> The best way to learn Haskell is to read http://learnyouahaskell.com/
12:04:56 <elliott> What.
12:05:12 <olsner> hmm, so system32 has 64-bit binaries and syswow64 has 32-bit ones
12:05:24 <fizzie> elliott: "Home Page: This is the complete commercial HTML editor from Claris. It will enable you to create your own WWW site pages without ever needing to know a single HTML tag."
12:05:58 <fizzie> Someone's also bundled an IE4 beta for Windows 3.1 on this.
12:06:07 <itidus21> this old mag claims the cd contained: webgenie shopping cart professional 2.09a valued at 750AUD
12:06:25 <elliott> fizzie: I WANT IT.
12:06:30 <fizzie> One of those things had a £345 "personnel management" software.
12:06:53 <fizzie> A 30-day trial of "Klik and Create"! Great stuff.
12:06:59 <shachaf> olsner: What would you expect?
12:07:21 <itidus21> oh i see.. i had pc plus may 98
12:07:27 <itidus21> cd is guaranteed to be gone
12:07:44 <fizzie> Hey, I have PC Plus July 98 here.
12:07:46 <itidus21> but the mag is here in bad nick :D
12:07:54 <shachaf> Man, 1998 was the year.
12:08:00 <shachaf> elliott: Remember 1998?
12:08:16 <itidus21> includes c++ builder stuff
12:08:20 <elliott> Yes.
12:08:32 <elliott> I got a computer. I think I watched some tennis.
12:08:39 <elliott> I remember very little of my early life.
12:08:43 <fizzie> Hmm.
12:09:06 <fizzie> Jan 98, Oct 97 SuperCDs are also here. But not May 98. Wonder where that's went.
12:09:10 <itidus21> c++ builder as sold for 80 pounds >.<
12:09:27 <itidus21> curse them and their cheap compilers
12:09:49 <itidus21> ooh dance ejay
12:09:57 <fizzie> CD-ROM Today, December 1995: "[8] Endorfun (Win): Subliminal messages? See what all the fuss is about."
12:10:01 <fizzie> Oh, I remember this.
12:10:08 <fizzie> There was even an article in one of the Finnish magazines.
12:10:13 <itidus21> thats probably why this cd got taken.. cos it had dance ejay on it
12:10:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorfun -- Wikipedia remembers it too, but not the "controversy", really.
12:10:37 <oerjan> elliott: imagine if you had gone with the tennis instead of the computers
12:10:48 <fizzie> They were all "computer DRUGS oh no" about it.
12:10:59 <fizzie> It wasn't exactly fun to play, I think.
12:11:59 <fizzie> And there's "Klik & Play", the precursor of "Klik & Create", I think.
12:13:32 <oerjan> in this world, elliott does computers, and the world gets destroyed by his evil AI. in that other world, elliott does tennis, and the defenseless world is destroyed by invading aliens.
12:13:44 <oerjan> or maybe he beats them with a megaracket.
12:14:19 <elliott> That reminds me of that comic.
12:14:33 <elliott> You know the one.
12:14:34 <oerjan> comic?
12:14:38 <itidus21> everything is elliott's fault
12:14:41 <oerjan> not on the spot
12:15:54 <elliott> I bet fizzie knows it.
12:15:57 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, I ended up doing what you suggested, an in-browser gcolor that just doesn't bother about sharing the results. But it uses Flickr for images, so the results are also worse; Flickr isn't so good about ranking by relevance. Anyway, http://zem.fi/misc_fcolor.html -- hasn't been tested much.
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12:16:26 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) == (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating [a])
12:16:27 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Floa...
12:16:29 <oerjan> i think i have read very little superhero comics since the 80s
12:16:35 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) ! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Arr.Array i e'
12:16:36 <lambdabot> against inferred t...
12:16:40 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) !! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
12:16:41 <lambdabot> against inferred type `a1 -> [a1]'
12:16:41 <oerjan> if that's the genre involved
12:16:45 <Taneb> > iterate (\x -> 1 + (1 / x)) 1 !! 38== (sqrt 5 + 1) / 2
12:16:46 <lambdabot> True
12:16:53 <Taneb> Hello
12:17:02 <Taneb> I've just understood infinite fractionny things
12:17:26 <elliott> fizzie: I still demand a web interface to the real thing.
12:17:47 <elliott> The animation is nice though.
12:17:54 <elliott> Except I searched for "poop" so I can't watch it.
12:18:05 <elliott> oerjan: This one: http://www.kiwisbybeat.com/minus37.html
12:18:11 <fizzie> I'll put a CGIfication of actual gcolor on the to-do list.
12:18:46 <itidus21> WE CANNOT DO A THING! PROBABLY!
12:18:46 <elliott> fizzie: CGI? You are so "old schoole".
12:18:53 <elliott> fizzie: Make sure it has ALL THE FEATURES I demanded!
12:19:45 <oerjan> elliott: oh right, i remember it was linked from SROMG
12:20:13 <oerjan> (it was part of the "sounds like minus" meme)
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12:20:14 <olsner> after about 1/4th of the images analyzed, the color of fizzie is apparently #916756 (brown)
12:21:14 <elliott> fizzie: Can you make it make a bleep noise when it's done so I know when it's safe to observe the poop?
12:21:22 <oerjan> > fix (\x -> 1 + (1/x)) :: CReal
12:21:26 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
12:21:27 <oerjan> :(
12:21:56 <oerjan> INSUFFICIENTLY LAZY
12:22:15 <oerjan> i guess you need some range restriction for convergence
12:22:35 <oerjan> but can CReal do that
12:23:31 <oerjan> > fix (\x -> abs $ 1 + (1/x)) :: CReal
12:23:35 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
12:23:48 <oerjan> i'm sure _that_ could have worked in theory.
12:24:01 <elliott> in theory.
12:24:06 <elliott> but that CReal sucks.
12:24:08 <elliott> try Few Digits.
12:24:15 <oerjan> what?
12:24:40 <elliott> "what?"?
12:25:51 <elliott> oerjan: hjalp
12:25:54 <oerjan> what's Few Digits
12:26:11 <elliott> http://r6.ca/FewDigits/
12:26:16 <elliott> the better CReal library :P
12:27:07 <oerjan> "Currently the show throws an error."
12:27:52 <elliott> oerjan: it has a function to show to # digits...
12:29:37 <fizzie> elliott: It'll leave the last poop image on the analysis display, though.
12:30:37 <elliott> fizzie: Thankfully it was a smiley poop. (Why don't you have a link trail?)
12:31:30 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZDF4cw
12:31:37 <elliott> Smiley poop.
12:31:45 <elliott> #906b4d is a very poop colour.
12:32:09 <fizzie> 'poop' is a good search, since most of the "returns all kinds of images" searches end up brown.
12:34:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://math-classes.org/
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13:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I don't need math classes :|
13:03:02 <elliott> fizzie: DYK the colour of zem is #805548?
13:03:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But Coq!
13:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> but elliott i already know all the maths
13:03:50 <elliott> ok what am collatz
13:06:34 <itidus21> formal diagrams get pretty ugly pretty fast
13:08:14 <fizzie> I K it now.
13:08:15 <itidus21> maybe this is the primary indicator i cannot understand a diagram
13:13:54 <elliott> All I K is I K nothing.
13:17:06 <itidus21> one area i especially struggle in computation models is having an intuitive sense of what is reasonable and unreasonable uses.
13:17:43 <itidus21> like the "rain man" is unreasonable at counting.
13:18:58 <itidus21> and i know that many things are unreasonable to do with a turing tarpit. but at the same time haskell isn't a turing tarpit
13:19:25 <itidus21> even lisp isn't from what i can infer
13:19:52 <nortti> itidus21: why?
13:20:41 <itidus21> because the thought of sitting down to actually study really really offends me
13:21:49 <itidus21> i need to use some form of casual self therapy to become a student
13:24:43 <itidus21> a few weeks ago i read the first 30 pages of war and peace (in english of course).. i'd once read the first 12 before
13:25:42 <itidus21> by the end of it i was just feeling tense
13:26:47 <itidus21> but i don't think it is anything to do with the book itself
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13:28:56 <itidus21> one option on the table is to watch video lectures :-D
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13:29:39 <itidus21> i have a link someone posted somewhere which led me to some but havent tried em yet
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14:01:28 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaPm_SFJnpY
14:01:33 <elliott> fizzie: Please explain yourselves, Finland.
14:05:02 <fizzie> There was some sort of an issue about Hevisaurus, something related to the record label company, I think they lost their case quasi-recently.
14:05:22 <fizzie> "In early 2011, the founder of the band, Mirka Rantanen, got into a disagreement with the band's record label Sony Music. Because of this, Rantanen and three other band members belonging to the band's live assembly founded a new band called Sauruxet, which has continued making children's power metal music with the original concept and nearly identical artist names. The band Hevisaurus keeps ...
14:05:28 <fizzie> ... its lead singer, its producers and the original stage costumes."
14:05:34 <fizzie> Something about the newer band not being able to use the old characters.
14:05:52 <fizzie> Anyway I'm not sure what's there to explain.
14:06:03 <elliott> It's not a real metal story until someone gets killed.
14:06:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Tinisaurus).
14:06:09 <elliott> Them's the rules.
14:06:33 <elliott> Also, the thing to explain would be why your children's bands are metal-playing dinosaurs.
14:06:49 <fizzie> Dinosaurs are heavy, aren't they?
14:07:21 <fizzie> "The usual heavy metal fan may not be a five-year-old girl in pigtails, but she is typical of hardcore following of Hevisaurus, a metal band that has hooked the kiddie crowd in Finland.
14:07:25 <fizzie> The group, which rocks on about homework and monsters, played its first gig, a charity event, only last September but its fan base of mainly five-to-seven-year-olds has grown rapidly."
14:08:26 <elliott> It all started a few years ago when Rantanen attended a children's concert with his own kids, now five and 11.
14:08:26 <elliott> "What if I started making music for kids?" he thought. "What if it was heavy metal, since that's what I've been doing for 25 years?"
14:08:34 <elliott> I see not much thought went into this thing.
14:10:01 <fizzie> "“I’m a kind of 1980s relic. You could call me a dinosaur,” said Rantanen, now better known as an Apatosaurus called Komppi Momppi."
14:10:41 <fizzie> "“It’s the best because it’s heavy,” said five-year-old Rico, who attended a packed concert in the southern city of Haemeenlinna wearing a Hevisaurus sweater and hat, and waving a Hevisaurus flag made by his dad."
14:10:47 <fizzie> Well, I think that makes sense.
14:11:39 <elliott> I admit, the logic is impeccable.
14:14:59 <tswett> Before reading the context, I thought the quote about Rantanen was a joke.
14:15:17 <tswett> Like, he says, "Oh, I'm really old, you could call me a dinosaur," and so suddenly everyone does.
14:15:52 <elliott> That would be funnier.
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14:44:45 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what should I name a CSS class meaning "all <pre> children of this won't have the ugly border"?
14:45:45 <fizzie> class="allprechildrenofthiswonthavetheuglyborder"
14:46:03 <elliott> THX
14:46:15 <fizzie> That's the audio thing.
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14:50:16 <Taneb> Hello!
14:50:39 <elliott> hi
14:50:54 <Taneb> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> map (\(x,y) -> (a*x,y)) (f b)) xs
14:50:54 <lambdabot> (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip ((.) . map . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . ((,) .) . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:50:58 <Taneb> Yay
14:51:29 <Deewiant> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> map (first (a*)) (f b)) xs
14:51:29 <lambdabot> (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:51:45 <Deewiant> @pl \xs f -> concatMap (uncurry $ \a b -> map (first (a*)) (f b)) xs
14:51:45 <lambdabot> (. (uncurry . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:52:00 <elliott> Beautiful.
14:52:15 <Deewiant> @pl flip $ \f -> concatMap (uncurry $ \a -> map (first (a*)) . f)
14:52:16 <lambdabot> (. (uncurry . flip ((.) . map . first . (*)))) . (>>=)
14:52:40 <Deewiant> @pl concatMap (uncurry $ \a -> map (first (a*)) . f)
14:52:40 <lambdabot> (uncurry ((. f) . map . first . (*)) =<<)
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14:54:18 <Taneb> "hoogle first
14:54:22 <Taneb> Aaah keyboard
14:54:27 <Taneb> @hoogle first
14:54:27 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid First :: Maybe a -> First a
14:54:28 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid newtype First a
14:54:28 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow first :: Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
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14:59:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You're a CSS line-wrapping wizard, right?
14:59:34 <Deewiant> Nope
15:00:08 <elliott> Deewiant: What!
15:00:12 <elliott> Deewiant: Which Finn is an expert in that?
15:00:46 <Deewiant> Beats me
15:02:23 <elliott> Deewiant: All I want is visible indicators of wrapping. :(
15:03:38 <Deewiant> http://blog.iany.me/2012/02/css-line-wrap-indicator/
15:03:59 <elliott> Deewiant: OH WELL AREN'T YOU FANCY.
15:04:10 <elliott> Bourgeois scum!
15:04:16 <elliott> Deewiant: "First, the code block in pre must be split by lines and add markup so that CSS can be applied."
15:04:26 <elliott> Yeah, of course it's trivial if you do that.
15:04:36 <Deewiant> In other words, you can't do it.
15:04:40 <elliott> MediaWiki doesn't give me that choice.
15:04:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Eh? A proof of a weaker statement doesn't mean the stronger statement is false.
15:05:01 <elliott> It just means the blog author wasn't smart enough to come up with one.
15:05:08 <elliott> *a proof
15:05:31 <Deewiant> When my hunch and the first google result match, it's true.
15:06:23 <elliott> Deewiant: How does that result match with a disproof?
15:06:31 <elliott> "must" is in the context of describing one particular technique.
15:06:34 <elliott> Yes, it must be done for that code to work.
15:08:07 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors/#selection
15:11:36 <elliott> I wonder if "p :not(:first-line) :first-line" will work.
15:13:25 <elliott> Sigh, nope, because it's a "pseudo-element"
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15:14:18 <elliott> Deewiant: What did you google for, FWIW?
15:15:13 <Deewiant> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=css%20line%20wrapping%20indicator
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16:14:26 <coppro> anyone here familiar with engraving music?
16:15:39 <elliott> INTENSELY.
16:15:45 <coppro> excellent
16:16:17 <coppro> I have a triplet where the first two notes are tied. Should I engrave this as a quarter note and an eigth note under the triplet, or two tied eighths and a third eighth under the same bar?
16:16:36 <elliott> Five hams and a quart of rum.
16:16:46 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: You can answer!
16:16:52 <elliott> Doesn't LilyPond have an answer?
16:16:56 <elliott> I hear LilyPond is good.
16:17:03 <coppro> I'm using lilypond
16:17:21 <coppro> but it just engraves what I tell it to
16:17:22 <RocketJSquirrel> coppro: Quarter and eighth under the triplet. Tying is gross unless absolutely necessary. You can always put a bar under the '3' if it's unclear.
16:17:34 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: Thanks
16:17:38 <coppro> (I think I agree)
16:17:45 <elliott> I still think you should go with four hams and a quart of rum.
16:17:53 <elliott> You can add a footnote to clarify your meaning.
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16:18:33 <coppro> RocketJSquirrel: Just since I feel like asking: do you consider tying across a bar to be a necessity versus putting a note whose duration is longer than the rest of the measure?
16:18:53 <RocketJSquirrel> That case I consider necessary, yes.
16:19:02 <coppro> Ok, good.
16:19:12 * coppro stabs everyone who thinks otherwise
16:19:15 <RocketJSquirrel> In the list of horrible sins, notes implicitly going over barlines is worse than ties X-D
16:19:16 <coppro> with a flute
16:20:56 * coppro now has a good melody
16:21:03 <coppro> or four bars of one, anyway
16:21:42 <elliott> More like a good MAMMARY.
16:21:47 <coppro> featuring an infinite sequence of notes, each with duration 2/3rds of a beat less than the previous
16:21:57 <coppro> aww, elliott discovered hormones
16:24:19 <elliott> coppro: It's not my fault "melody" has like NO words that sound vaguely like it.
16:24:27 <elliott> Anyway, more like I just discovered MORMONS.
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17:10:08 <elliott> kmc: You know how you asked if #haskell got better in your absence?
17:10:39 <elliott> kmc: It didn't, it got worse.
17:11:01 <Sgeo> Someone asks how to get a UTCTime out of an IO UTCTime, someone suggests unsafePerformIO
17:13:05 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:13:43 <Taneb> Hello
17:13:58 <Taneb> I've got the start of a new esolang formulating
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17:14:38 <mroman> hello
17:14:47 <Taneb> By which I mean I've got all the commands in some sort of format that only makes sense to me
17:15:24 <mroman> Then document it in a way others can unterstand?
17:15:28 <Taneb> Now I just need to decide whether the memory word should be 4-bit or 8-bit
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17:15:31 <Taneb> NEVER
17:16:23 <Taneb> By which I mean SOON
17:16:35 <Taneb> I think it's Turing-complete
17:17:33 <Taneb> Hang on, I don't need all these commands
17:18:34 <Taneb> Bye
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17:18:41 <mroman> o_O
17:19:33 <elliott> mroman: Taneb is always like that.
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17:19:48 <elliott> We have an adequate supply of crack to help you keep pace.
17:20:55 <mroman> No thanks ;) @crack
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17:22:45 <Sgeo> I'm on a Common Lisp kick, how do I get my mind in Haskell mode.
17:22:55 <Sgeo> Although what I really want is utterly demented Haskell mode.
17:23:32 <mroman> Less braces.
17:23:36 <mroman> more pure.
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17:24:00 <mroman> *brackets
17:24:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Common Lisp sucks. Haskell doesn't suck as much.
17:24:07 <elliott> Hope this helps.
17:24:08 <mroman> whatever you call (
17:24:15 <elliott> mroman: Parentheses.
17:24:20 <mroman> Damn :(
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17:27:07 <Sgeo> "Haskell is a strict, imperative, strongly-typed language."
17:27:15 <Sgeo> Wait, strict?
17:27:16 <Sgeo> Blargh
17:27:27 <elliott> Wait, imperative?
17:27:28 <elliott> Blargh
17:27:36 * Sgeo fixes strict with "eager"
17:27:46 <mroman> What?
17:27:47 <elliott> Haskell is not eager.
17:27:51 <mroman> Haskell is no way eager.
17:28:00 <Sgeo> Bet I can fake it
17:28:04 <fizzie> Haskell is the laziest guy I know. Seriously, such a drain-on-societys-resources.
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17:29:44 <Sgeo> Also, I'm wondering if I should replace "strongly-typed" with ... well, dynamically typed is still not necessarily weakly typed.
17:29:47 <elliott> List of ways Common Lisp sucks: (1) Terrible standardisation (basic facilities such as threading and networking are unportable and have to be abstracted behind numerous APIs); (2) Packaging situation might even be worse than Haskell's; (3) Baroque warts of complexity lying around (yes, Haskell has them, but far fewer); (4) Namespace upon namespace without any orthographic distinction (like Haskell's initial capitals) making a huge mess out of thi
17:29:47 <elliott> ngs (e.g. if you name a variable "list"); (5) Sub-par static checking
17:30:09 <elliott> (7) Fairly stagnant community, esp. as far as new general-purpose libraries goes, esp. "outside-world" interfacings tuff
17:30:30 <elliott> (8) All the usual language flaws of impurity, wimpy type system, etc.
17:30:37 <elliott> (9) More I've surely forgotten.
17:31:37 <elliott> Oh yeah, (10) Unsafe/difficult-to-use/error-prone/ugly macro system
17:31:50 <mroman> defmacro!!
17:32:10 <mroman> Although Haskell has Template Haskell.
17:32:14 <elliott> (11) LOOP and FORMAT, 'nuff said.
17:32:23 <mroman> Which is kinda not-understandable at all.
17:32:31 <elliott> Template Haskell isn't all that difficult.
17:32:48 <mroman> It's poorly explained
17:33:00 <elliott> That's true.
17:33:04 <Sgeo> Anyways, I'm just doing Haskell stuff until a certain date
17:33:12 <elliott> What happens after that date?
17:33:17 <Sgeo> I'm still preferring Common Lisp, but this project only makes sense in Haskell.
17:33:23 <elliott> fizzie: You forgot a mapostrophe.
17:33:30 <Sgeo> elliott, the deadline for this project to make any sense passes.
17:33:34 <Sgeo> At least for a year.
17:33:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You forgot the part where Common Lisp is inferior to Haskell in basically every conceivable way.
17:33:40 <mroman> And I might not understand the type magic behind it ;)
17:33:51 <mroman> As I know nothing about type theory.
17:34:14 <elliott> mroman: Template Haskell has exactly 0 type magic.
17:34:22 <elliott> It practically has negative amounts of type theory.
17:34:25 <elliott> It doesn't even type its splices.
17:34:53 <Sgeo> Crud, if I suggest NoImplicitPrelude, I'm going to need to export a lot of stuff from the Prelude
17:34:58 <Sgeo> Like ($) and (+)
17:35:11 <elliott> Dare I ask what this project is?
17:35:42 <Sgeo> An April Fools Haskell tutorial
17:35:57 <elliott> See, I knew I would regret asking.
17:36:06 <elliott> But I asked anyway.
17:39:13 <Sgeo> Hmm. Variables, variables, variables. How to do variables.
17:39:41 <Sgeo> Does every non-referentially-transparent function need NOINLINE?
17:39:57 <Sgeo> I'm guessing so. Can I have an entire file be assumed to have NOINLINE everywhere?
17:40:22 <elliott> I don't see why it would need NOINLINE. Or conversely, what the hell you think NOINLINE will prevent.
17:41:02 <Sgeo> The IO being executed too early?
17:41:11 <elliott> What does that mean?
17:41:57 <Sgeo> If I have a unsafeCurrentTime :: UTCTIme, does that need to be noinlined if I want every place that it's used to see the current time and not the time that it was when ... bluh
17:42:54 <elliott> Sgeo: You can't do that, fulls top.
17:42:56 <elliott> *full stop.
17:43:04 <elliott> It's a CAF.
17:43:11 <elliott> It will be evaluated once and replaced by its value.
17:43:14 <elliott> That's just how it works.
17:44:35 * Sgeo looks for an option to disable that
17:44:42 <elliott> You can't.
17:44:45 <elliott> That's how GHC works, fundamentally.
17:44:50 <elliott> That's how the entire evaluation model works.
17:44:51 <mroman> Shouldn't IO prevent that?
17:45:13 <Sgeo> mroman, my entire goal is to be stupid in Haskell.
17:45:29 <mroman> although the question would be
17:45:44 <mroman> why :: UTCTime behaves differently than :: IO UTCTime
17:46:44 <Sgeo> I don't want to use the IO monad, that's cheating.
17:47:14 <elliott> mroman: Because IO a is State# RealWorld -> (# a, State# RealWorld #).
17:47:50 <mroman> Ok.
17:47:56 <mroman> That makes sense then.
17:48:37 <mroman> but..
17:48:38 <mroman> hm.
17:48:53 <mroman> foobar :: Int -> IO Int
17:49:09 <mroman> actually foobar MUST yield the same result everytime, when called with the same argument.
17:49:19 <elliott> Don't say "MUST".
17:49:21 <elliott> This is GHC.
17:49:32 <elliott> The (->) in that IO definition is the arrow of impure functions.
17:49:36 <elliott> And State# isn't really anything at all.
17:49:42 <elliott> It's all a big con to fool the compiler internals.
17:50:11 <mroman> Hu @ (->) ?
17:50:18 <mroman> What does that mean?
17:50:57 <elliott> It means what it means: the (->) being used in that definition of IO allows impure side-effects.
17:52:26 <mroman> But IO is just a Type?
17:53:11 <elliott> Eh?
17:53:18 <mroman> If I have a function
17:53:18 <mroman> like
17:53:28 <mroman> foobar :: a -> m b
17:53:37 <mroman> And I call it twice with the same argument
17:53:37 <elliott> This is all about black magic implementation details. As far as Haskell is concerned, IO has no definition.
17:53:45 <elliott> GHC breaks the rules to define IO.
17:53:54 <mroman> It should only be evaluated once.
17:53:57 <elliott> WHat?
17:53:58 <elliott> No.
17:54:03 <elliott> No Haskell compiler does automatic memoisation.
17:54:06 <elliott> That's a one-way ticket to space leaks.
17:54:19 <elliott> (And slowness, for that matter.)
17:54:22 <mroman> like
17:54:42 <mroman> do { a <- foobar 1; b <- foobar 1; return (a,b); }
17:54:50 <mroman> => do { a <- foobar 1; return (a,a); }
17:55:00 <elliott> No.
17:55:02 <elliott> That's complete and utter nonsense.
17:55:05 <elliott> foobar = print
17:55:15 <elliott> do { a <- print 1; b <- print 1; return (a, b) }
17:55:20 <elliott> => do { a <- print 1; return (a, a) }
17:55:22 <elliott> I think not.
17:55:37 <mroman> Yeah, but why?
17:55:51 <elliott> Because
17:55:57 <elliott> print 1 >> print 1 >> return (a,b)
17:55:58 <elliott> ===
17:56:04 <elliott> erm
17:56:07 <elliott> print 1 >> print 1
17:56:07 <elliott> ===
17:56:09 <elliott> let x = print 1 in x >> x
17:56:10 <mroman> Referential transparency should allow that to happen?
17:56:13 <elliott> but that does not ===
17:56:16 <elliott> let x = print 1 in x
17:56:20 <elliott> any more than 1+1 must equal 1
17:56:26 <elliott> x >> x does not necessarily equal x
17:56:39 <mroman> No.
17:58:21 <mroman> But why should it bother to evaluate x twice?
17:58:32 <mroman> You already know the result of x based on the result of the first.
17:59:03 <elliott> You are mistaking monadic execution with evaluation.
17:59:06 <elliott> Consider the list monad.
17:59:10 <elliott> > [1,2,3] >> [1,2,3]
17:59:11 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3]
17:59:29 <elliott> Why would it evaluate [1,2,3] twice? Well, whether it does or it doesn't, it's irrelevant.
17:59:38 <elliott> (>>) is just a function like any other, and it gets passed through the same.
18:00:27 <Sgeo> mroman, print 1 can be evaluated as many times as you like. When evaulated, it doesn't print anything. It just becomes a value saying "When I'm executed, print 1"
18:02:33 <coppro> ^
18:02:35 <coppro> best explanation
18:03:17 <elliott> Not best, it's slightly inaccurate.
18:03:18 <elliott> But adequate.
18:03:50 <Sgeo> Hm?
18:04:12 <elliott> It doesn't "become" a value.
18:04:40 <Sgeo> results in
18:04:47 <elliott> You can say it evaluates to an action saying "On execution, print 1", but that seems unnecessarily operational to me.
18:04:55 <elliott> "It is an action saying 'On execution, print 1'" conveys the exact same.
18:05:48 <Sgeo> elliott, except that that fails to mention the role that evaluation plays, in terms of not being execution
18:06:22 <elliott> Well, the role that evaluation plays is precisely nothing.
18:06:33 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, and that needs to be clarified.
18:06:48 <Sgeo> Maybe.
18:13:21 <elliott> Taneeeeeeeeeeb.
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18:36:16 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to update my esolangs page.
18:36:22 <Taneb> Hello
18:36:43 <elliott> hi Taneb
18:36:48 <elliott> i am disappoitned in you >:(
18:37:01 <Taneb> What have I done now?
18:37:18 <elliott> you're the second person in a few days to add their own language to a concept's list of languages :P
18:37:46 <Taneb> I did acknowledge my narcissism
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18:42:16 <Taneb> And it is appropriate to the article
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18:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I saw the topic, and for a minute I thought it was September,
18:45:32 <Sgeo> elliott, I can play Worms again
18:45:40 <elliott> I can't.
18:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought elliott couldn't?
18:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Indee.d
18:46:20 <Sgeo> I have my (legal) ISO, if that's any help
18:47:31 <elliott> I don't think it's an ISO problem, unfortunately. But I might try tomorrow, if you can think of a reasonable method of transfer.
18:50:37 <Sgeo> Having a hard time thinking of a reasonable method of transfer, unfortunately
18:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Carrier pigeon.
18:51:51 <elliott> Sgeo: There's mediedmiedimdimedieidififafiafiafyre.
18:57:25 <Sgeo> I need a mousepad :/
18:59:34 <Sgeo> Oops! You have selected a file that is too large.
18:59:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I can use dropbox or something?
19:00:34 <elliott> dropbox would probably work. but no point until tomorrow
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19:02:24 <Sgeo> If I paste to something other than Public, could Is till share that file?
19:08:12 <Sgeo> The file appears to not be showing up on the website
19:10:09 <Sgeo> Because I didn't have dropbox running. Brillian
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19:41:11 <itidus21> Sgeo: the worms where a bunch of worm sprites wander about a bitmapped terrain with tnt that works like an image editor erasor?
19:41:16 <Taneb> Hello!
19:41:23 <ais523> hi
19:41:31 <Sgeo> itidus21, that series, yes
19:41:35 <itidus21> woooo
19:41:57 <Sgeo> Although if you have older worms in mind, Worms: Armageddon looks better
19:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
19:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> if elliott gets it working
19:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> we can play with iti
19:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> it will be
19:42:19 <Phantom_Hoover> the smoothest thing
19:42:24 <Phantom_Hoover> like
19:42:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the curvature
19:42:31 <itidus21> i used to have worms united cd.. but it broke
19:42:39 <Sgeo> 12 minutes left
19:42:41 <Phantom_Hoover> will be closer to zero than zero itself
19:43:01 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, do you have an iso?
19:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Not on Vax, no.
19:43:09 <Sgeo> Because if not I'm uploading one to dropbox.
19:43:30 <itidus21> im not asking to play.. im just saying worms is one of the great games :d
19:43:40 <Sgeo> itidus21, yes, yes it is.
19:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, no you must play
19:44:26 <Phantom_Hoover> you are so stupid
19:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> you will be
19:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> so smooth
19:45:07 * itidus21 starts to imagine esolangers in worms
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19:52:11 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what should I name a CSS class meaning "all <pre> children of this won't have the ugly border"? <-- yay!
19:52:37 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm not sure "yay" is such a descriptive name.
19:52:52 <oerjan> IT IS FOR ME
19:53:05 <oerjan> mainly because i suggested such a feature.
19:53:37 <oerjan> (well, something reasonably equivalently useable.)
19:53:56 <oerjan> or well, i guess i was asking if it already existed.
19:54:30 <pikhq> I suggest nougly
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20:09:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I saw the topic, and for a minute I thought it was September, <-- september 1993, to be precise.
20:09:50 <oerjan> mind you i wasn't thinking of that when setting the topic.
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20:48:13 <kallisti> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78
20:48:16 <kallisti> Erlang: The Movie
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20:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
20:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> The only true Erlang movie.
20:51:17 <itidus21> oh i heard about that
20:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
20:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i
20:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
20:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> it is the UNCOMFORTABLY PARALLEL one
20:51:45 <itidus21> i think it gets referenced when i am being dumb or annoying
20:52:26 <itidus21> people start greeting each other
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21:52:09 <ais523> ooh, reading the diff algo you linked me to here, and I think I see where this is going
21:52:32 <ais523> previous algorithm's equivalent to Dijkstra's in state space, and it's doing A* or an equivalent instead
21:53:33 <ais523> huh, the example code is in Pascal
21:53:45 <ais523> with operators replaced with mathematical notation, the same way papers sometimes do for Haskell
21:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for.
21:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> pacman -Syu is failing because of an invalid signature.
21:56:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: please tell me that program has a filename clash with the game Pacman ;)
21:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Somehow I doubt it.
21:58:13 * oerjan should have asked elliott about that pre thing before :P
21:58:21 <oerjan> *<pre>
21:58:51 <oerjan> now most of the formatting weirdness for the Qdeql tables is gone
22:03:04 <oerjan> it only remains for someone to actually understand them :P
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22:29:56 <zzo38> I found on Wikipedia, they do have a 0 longitude on Mars.
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22:42:23 <zzo38> ais523: WEB replaces some Pascal operators with mathematical notations, but it also includes support for named chunks, pool strings, and octal and hexadecimal constants.
22:42:56 <zzo38> (TeX is written in WEB)
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23:56:06 <Sgeo> So the packaged BZFlag is obsolete
23:56:07 <Sgeo> Bleh
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