←2012-03-17 2012-03-18 2012-03-19→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:09:55 <shadwick> hello
00:11:11 <Sgeo> Hi
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00:13:49 <zzo38> Completely unintentionally, Icosahedral RPG differs from D&D 3E in almost the completely opposite way to 4E differing from 3E. I started Icosahedral even before 4E was announced. 4E keeps challenge rating and discards level adjustment, while Icosahedral keeps level adjustment but discards challenge rating. 4E keeps class skills but not skills ranks; Icosahedral keeps skill ranks but not class skills. And so on.
00:14:13 <zzo38> I wanted to get rid of the d10 because it is not a Platonic solid, but I cannot easily do so.
00:17:02 <zzo38> (Also, I made it, level adjustments are actually replaced by a slightly more general concept of "pseudolevels", which work mostly in the same way; and it now applies to all creatures instead of only some.)
00:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oi, someone tell me if it's reasonable to dismiss anyone who thinks Feyerabend was on to something as an idiot.
00:17:27 <shadwick> zzo38: you're writing something called Icosahedral?
00:23:19 <zzo38> shadwick: I have not yet written a lot, but it is a role playing game; I have written parts of the document. I have also written the markup language for it, called Icoruma, in PHP; but I might reimplement Icoruma in C or Haskell later on.
00:23:39 <shadwick> huh, nice
00:24:23 <zzo38> But I can tell you that much of it is mathematical. A "mana" is a kind of mathematical thing, with primes and composites, multiplied together, like ordinary numbers; but there are only five prime manas. There is also multimana, which is the sum of zero or more manas.
00:25:23 <zzo38> And then "less than or equal to" can be defined on multimanas, which is also important to the spellcasting in this game.
00:25:58 <zzo38> It just happens that a multimana forms a continuation (this was not the intention, but it happens to be the case anyways).
00:26:33 <shadwick> ...sounds kinda insane
00:29:20 <zzo38> Like D&D 3E, the game has skills, feats, etc. One difference is that there are no separate race stat blocks and creature stat blocks; they are unified. Another difference is that spellcasting is very different. You increase in ability scores less often than 3E. There are many other differences too.
00:31:07 <zzo38> And there is no "epic" either; classes simply go up to level 100 (but you can still multiclass).
00:31:53 <zzo38> Also, nearly all experience points is "ad hoc" in Icosahedral; there are not standard methods for gaining experience points.
00:33:56 <zzo38> A few of the standard rules of Icosahedral RPG are possible to use as optional rules in D&D 3E, and I will describe two of them. One is resurrection, in which you age twice as fast while dead (there are also a few other minor differences in resurrection). Another is that alignment entries in creature stat blocks mostly describe superstition rather than reality.
00:34:23 <zzo38> I suggest using these two rules even in D&D because it makes the game more interesting in my opinion.
00:40:25 <shadwick> I'm not a D&D player so most of that went over my head
00:40:57 <shadwick> so your Icosahedral will be a table-top game like that?
00:44:36 <zzo38> Yes, a table-top game.
00:44:50 <zzo38> Using pencil, paper, book, and dice.
00:46:03 <shadwick> nice
00:46:33 <zzo38> The Icoruma markup language can be used to document other role playing games too, though.
00:46:55 <zzo38> ("Icoruma" is actually short for "Icosahedral Rules Markup" since that is its original use.)
00:49:15 <zzo38> Instead of "dungeon master", the term used in this game is "referee".
00:50:48 <zzo38> The Fundamental Rule of Icosahedral RPG says: "All rules have exceptions, including this one."
00:51:18 * Phantom_Hoover -> sleep
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01:06:39 <zzo38> A multimana x is less than or equal to a multimana y if and only if you can match each mana in x with a mana in y such that: Each mana in x matches to a distinct mana in y (although there can be multiple equal manas in y, and you do not have to use all the manas of y), and the mana in y which each mana in x is matched up with, the one in x must be a factor of the one it is matched up with it in y.
01:06:43 <zzo38> Does this look correct to you?
01:19:33 <fizzie> It *sounds* like an okay partial order, at least at a glance.
01:20:32 <zzo38> Notice that, just if x is not less than or equal to y does not necessarily make y less than or equal to x; this is intentional.
01:22:32 <fizzie> Yes, thus 'partial'.
01:52:52 <shadwick> Finally got my interpreter for the Alchemy language working and written nicely
01:52:52 <shadwick> https://bitbucket.org/shadwick/alchemy/wiki/Home
01:53:13 <shadwick> I'll update the esolang wiki page soon to fill in info its missing..
02:04:26 <Sgeo> tswett, UPDATE
02:04:27 <Sgeo> monqy,
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04:02:42 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently I accidentally joined #trains without noticing.
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04:03:01 <shachaf> Not that I mind trains, but that particular virtual channel seems to keep growing...
04:03:06 <kmc> lols
04:03:23 <kmc> sometimes people are wrong about trains
04:03:27 <kmc> on the internet
04:03:41 <shachaf> You gotta turn the wrong people into right people.
04:04:01 <kmc> you understand
04:04:25 <shachaf> By calling them communist.
04:04:35 <shachaf> Wait, lexande isn't the wrong one.
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04:06:51 <kmc> right
04:18:50 <kmc> <kmc> rocket sleds go much faster, but are not generally used in revenue service
04:35:07 <coppro> How come SIGSTOP has the effect of killing processes that are in the middle of dying but not dying for some reason?
04:35:24 <shachaf> coppro: What does that mean?
04:35:43 <coppro> sometimes firefox gets into a hang, SIGTERM won't get rid of it
04:35:46 <coppro> but SIGSTOP will
04:36:02 <coppro> but SIGSTOP isn't supposed to actually kill, only suspend
04:39:31 <zzo38> Is there Haskell library for geometry?
04:42:19 <kmc> coppro, strange, I've never seen that
04:42:47 <kmc> hm you can't catch SIGSTOP either
04:42:58 <kmc> so it's not a matter of a signal handler un-wedging the process
04:43:18 <coppro> yeah
04:43:34 <shachaf> Maybe the process's parent kills it?
04:43:35 <coppro> kmc: it's actually a nice trick since SIGKILL is nasty
04:44:11 <coppro> seems unlikely
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05:44:46 <kmc> so is m4 actually a bad language or is it just associated with things people hate (autoconf, sendmail)
05:46:40 <shachaf> kmc: It's a slightly weird language.
05:46:54 <shachaf> In my limited experience, it's not particularly great but it's not horrible either.
05:47:08 <shachaf> And it doesn't have many competitors, especially portable/generally-available ones.
05:50:45 <kmc> *nod*
05:51:01 <kmc> has anyone seen actual Haskell code which uses m4?
05:51:19 <kmc> when i complain about the lack of a good Haskell preprocessor people always suggest m4
05:51:23 <kmc> but i get the impression they're trollin'
05:51:35 <kmc> shachaf, what have you used m4 for?
05:51:39 <shachaf> That sounds like a correct impression.
05:51:58 <shachaf> kmc: At RDB we used it for making package description files and things like that.
05:52:31 <shachaf> My experience with it isn't very extensive or anything, but that was the impression I got.
05:53:08 <shachaf> I actually wish there was a viable alternative to CPP for preprocessing C code. :-(
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06:00:11 <zzo38> shachaf: There is CWEB and Enhanced CWEB which allows you to use CPP as well as other things, maybe that will ehlp?
06:00:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, WEB is a possibility.
06:01:03 <shachaf> But it's a pretty big change to how you write programs.
06:01:34 <zzo38> shachaf: WEB is for Pascal, but it is a very good preprocessor for Pascal. CWEB is the similar thing for C codes.
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06:02:37 <shachaf> Yes.
06:02:53 <kmc> what's the big change?
06:05:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Can you be specific please?
06:07:53 <shachaf> I'll admit that I haven't read many WEB-style programs, so I only have a vague impression of it. The programs I've seen have been split up and spread out in an order completely different from execution order. Well, not that normal C programs are written in "execution order" exactly, but this is much more extreme.
06:08:16 <shachaf> It might be better -- Knuth says it is -- but reading a CWEB program is a completely different experience from reading a C program.
06:08:28 <zzo38> TeX is a program written in WEB; you can see that as one possible example.
06:09:07 <zzo38> (It is published as a book, although you can also download it.)
06:09:52 <shachaf> There are lots of programs written in CWEB at http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/programs.html :-)
06:11:09 <zzo38> WEB adds macros, octal constants, hexadecimal constants, ASCII character code constants, and pool strings, to Pascal, as well as named chunks reordering. C already has some of this stuff, but CWEB adds named chunks. There are also a few other features. And my own Enhanced CWEB adds even more things, such as being able to execute C codes at compile-time to generate C codes which will be compiled.
06:12:54 <shachaf> https://github.com/ascherer/mmix/blob/master/mmixal.w
06:13:06 <zzo38> Which exactly are features you have wanted to use?
06:13:43 <zzo38> Cackala: What is all that mess?
06:16:04 <zzo38> I have also written some programs in CWEB, such as the BytePusher implementation.
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06:22:47 <shachaf> Maybe literate programming would solve all my problems.
06:23:10 <zzo38> Probably not all of them, but possibly many of them, depending on what your problem is!
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07:12:05 <zzo38> Why is there no ephemeris program in Haskell?
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07:24:42 <kmc> ime, literate programming is great for blog posts and the like
07:24:55 <kmc> not as good for "real programming"
07:25:16 <kmc> but that's based on using plain lhs, not any of the fancy systems which let you jump between source files, etc
07:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: .lhs is very different from WEB.
07:25:58 <shachaf> It's just a different comment syntax for Haskell.
07:27:00 <kmc> well, the philosophy behind literate programming is more than "comments are default"
07:27:07 <kmc> and you can realize that within lhs to some degree
07:27:51 <shachaf> Is that the philosophy?
07:28:16 <kmc> is which? i didn't say what i thought the literate programming philosophy is
07:28:27 <zzo38> That is true; .lhs does not have the features of WEB. But it is possible for a .lhs file to be the format of other files such as TeX or MediaWiki or HTML or whatever. It can be done without needing a program to convert from one format to another, even.
07:28:53 <kmc> in particular, Markdown
07:29:32 <shachaf> Oh, I misread what you said.
07:29:42 <zzo38> (In HTML, use <XMP> and in XHTML, use CDATA. In TeX, you need some macros to make it work but there are a few such things and I have written one called "birdstyle.tex". For MediaWiki, just surround the code in <pre> or <pre><nowiki> tags.)
07:29:59 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know much about Markdown
07:30:06 <kmc> markdown+lhs is a nice format
07:30:09 <kmc> i use it a lot for my blog
07:30:18 <kmc> pandoc can render it to html with syntax highlighting
07:31:00 <zzo38> However blog posts usually do not actually work like I specified so you cannot simply wget the article and run it.
07:31:12 <kmc> yeah
07:31:21 <kmc> sometimes i provide a link to the code on github or somewhere
07:32:09 <zzo38> Can you do it so that you can use wget or the save webpage function?
07:32:14 <kmc> not easily
07:32:19 <kmc> but there are probably ways
07:32:28 <kmc> aiui the literate philosophy is that your source should be a document written for humans which explains how the program works
07:32:35 <zzo38> Yes, I told you how; there is one way for HTML and one way for XHTML.
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07:33:35 <zzo38> Are you able to do using XMP and CDATA?
07:35:51 <zzo38> I have made up some new commands in the .cabal file for printing literate Haskell programs, but as far as I know, there are no programs which will read those commands. But they start with "X-" so that it is not error if unrecognized.
07:37:03 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I just found a "bug" shared among a large number of the C programs on Knuth's website.
07:37:12 <shachaf> At least according to C99.
07:37:14 <zzo38> shachaf: What one is that?
07:37:16 <shachaf> Probably C89 too.
07:38:06 <shachaf> In fact, it looks like I can make most of those programs crash under Solaris.
07:38:15 <zzo38> Do you think this is good? http://sprunge.us/BaDc It is incomplete; you can suggest to add more things
07:39:13 <zzo38> (If you look at my own packages on Hackage, you will see that they use that.)
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09:25:12 <shadwick> hello
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09:36:16 <Taneb> Hello!
09:39:18 <shadwick> hi
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10:27:34 <Taneb> This is a silly channel
10:28:40 <fizzie> No, you're the silly.
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10:37:29 <kmc> "Their fluorescent nipples were drawn with a special rendering mode usually reserved for fog-piercing runway landing lights, so they could easily be seen from long distances in bad weather."
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10:54:27 <Taneb> Hello!
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11:37:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is ALMOST the TALLEST CHUPACABRA you will SING all MIDSUMMER: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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11:39:32 <oerjan> hi elliott
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11:43:16 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Basic Input/Output Commands‎; 02:21 . . (+2,938) . . (Talk | block)‎ (Reimagined even more - wait, the old examples are now obsolete.)
11:43:16 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Basic Input/Output Commander‎; 02:21 . . (-169,556) . . (Talk | block)‎ (Renamed: Basic Input/Output Commands) [rollback]
11:43:41 <elliott> oerjan: please go back in time and kill so i do not have to do a history merge.
11:44:24 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_Operating_System&curid=8322&diff=31213&oldid=31116 also, tell them to stop editing comments that people have already replied to.
11:44:25 <oerjan> i'm afraid my time machine still has some fundamental problems.
11:44:41 <elliott> wait, they edited /other people's comments/
11:44:46 <elliott> to make them in line with their edits
11:44:52 <oerjan> why are you asking me to do things you know i'm even _worse_ at than you?
11:45:02 <elliott> I can't tell whether they just don't understand wikis, or don't care...
11:45:06 <elliott> oerjan: so I don't feel the obligation to
11:45:50 <elliott> "Warning: this procedure may only be undone by spending quite silly amounts of time. To undo a merge, see below. Do not do this if you're not sure what you're doing."
11:46:33 <myname> oh, esoteric OSs
11:46:36 <myname> i remember one
11:46:55 <myname> this "do something"-system
11:47:17 <elliott> petrovich?
11:47:29 <oerjan> do something, abbreviated DOS
11:48:31 <myname> elliott: yeah
11:48:51 <myname> liked the idea, but i was too afraid to actually test it
11:50:01 <elliott> myname: it doesn't actually exist :P
11:50:08 <myname> okay!
11:50:41 <elliott> history merge complete!
11:52:15 <elliott> ok now i give myself a brief rest before teaching how to move pages and use talk pages :P
11:56:04 <elliott> coppro: AGAINST, trying to tarnish Agora's fine history of coprophilia
11:56:57 <oerjan> ...i'd expect coppro to not change that...
11:57:54 <elliott> oerjan: he's proposed to change COPPRO STRAIGHT to COOK SCSTRAIGHT in the Map
11:58:03 <elliott> presumably because his name is scshunt these days
11:58:08 <elliott> (has oerjan even seen the map?)
11:58:19 <oerjan> probably not
11:58:33 <elliott> see first rule in http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt :P (Rule 2105)
11:58:47 <elliott> i think it's been around for a while.
11:58:52 <elliott> ah, since 2005
11:59:19 <elliott> tasmania is new though
11:59:29 <elliott> or wait, New Zealand is
11:59:34 <elliott> Tasmania isn't
12:01:09 <oerjan> i see no tasmania, and you got the spelling of the second horrendously wrong. i have this eerie feeling i've seen a similar map before somewhere, though.
12:02:04 <elliott> wait, what did i spell wrong.
12:02:12 <oerjan> New C. Land
12:02:24 <elliott> also, I do see tasmania.
12:02:30 <elliott> it's the thing with the Hobart label.
12:02:55 <oerjan> oh. well how could i know that when the name's not written on it.
12:03:29 <elliott> because hobart is a real place?
12:03:39 <elliott> also, neither Australia nor New Zealand are labelled there either :P
12:03:57 <oerjan> i think elliott is having mighty strong winds overhead right now.
12:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, because it's the same size and shape as Tasmania and it's in the same place?
12:04:46 <elliott> oerjan: i think you've forgotten to make a joke.
12:04:55 <elliott> you have to do that before acting clueless, you see
12:05:00 <elliott> hth
12:05:06 <oerjan> aha
12:05:39 <oerjan> i thought my "eerie feeling" comment would be sufficient.
12:06:06 <oerjan> it's hard to be subtle when Phantom_Hoover is supplying the bricks.
12:06:17 <elliott> oh, the joke is that it looks like australia. ok
12:07:35 <itidus21> which is curiously larger than norway and london combined
12:07:54 <itidus21> except its very desert
12:09:23 <oerjan> i see they haven't colonized the whale-shaped island yet.
12:09:42 <elliott> no, that's a whale.
12:10:06 <elliott> once I was Mad Scientist and got the Map as my randomly-selected rule. that one was tricky.
12:10:13 <oerjan> it looks very big.
12:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wat
12:10:25 <oerjan> or perhaps the rest is very small
12:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, it's a whale, duh
12:10:37 <elliott> (see http://agora.qoid.us/rule/2192#610447, http://agora.qoid.us/rule/2193#610449)
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12:11:24 <elliott> the results of the Map being selected can be seen at the bottom of the latter. (but it will only make sense if you read the former first.)
12:13:02 <oerjan> those two links have no line wrapping in my browser :(
12:13:26 <itidus21> 339,000km^2 + 450,000km^2 + 386,000km^2 + 244,000km^2 < 7,610,000km^2 .. australia's land area can swallow quite a lot
12:13:32 <elliott> it uses <pre>.
12:13:36 <elliott> so i don't see why it shouldn't
12:13:41 <elliott> err, wait
12:13:45 <elliott> the ruleset is in pre-wrapped form
12:13:51 <elliott> you see whitespace but no line breaks?
12:13:55 <oerjan> yes
12:14:02 <elliott> i mean, there are even explicit <br />s in the content it inserts.
12:14:07 <elliott> so your browser is just completely broken.
12:14:16 <elliott> but here
12:14:18 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/oldflr/1.872#rule-2192
12:14:19 <itidus21> wow.. usa is bigger
12:14:22 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/oldflr/1.874#rule-2193
12:14:24 <itidus21> amazing
12:14:42 <elliott> (yes, those are raw RCS files.)
12:14:51 <elliott> http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt,v :P
12:15:30 <oerjan> elliott: view source shows lots of <br \/>
12:15:39 <elliott> oerjan: the other links i gave should work
12:15:44 <elliott> (ok it's not a raw RCS file, it's processed by the script that adds the links and stuff.)
12:16:26 <oerjan> oh right it's a js string
12:16:56 <elliott> ok oerjan is determined to use the broken links i gave :P
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12:17:41 <oerjan> no i was just looking at the source
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12:18:54 <oerjan> this seems much like the frankenstein monster back in my time
12:20:24 <elliott> it lead to some fun scams due to being a person.
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12:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://lparchive.org/Half-Life-2/
12:29:23 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, the difference between http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions&oldid=31203 and http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions&oldid=31223 worries me.
12:29:36 <elliott> somehow <pre class="plain">blah</pre> has _less_ margin than <code>blah</code>
12:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> SINISTER
12:29:46 <elliott> possibly something to do with the line height
12:30:45 <oerjan> elliott: i noted in [[Qdeql]] the lines got less tall, but then i realized it actually looked better that way.
12:31:25 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES
12:31:34 <oerjan> *noticed
12:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, hahahaha i thought this was half-life 2 not harry potter
12:32:50 <oerjan> elliott: also, some of the spacing depends on the height of the cell overall
12:32:53 <myname> the width of the blocks differ, too
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12:34:36 <myname> on the second one everything on css that is applied to the code fills out the whole table cell
12:34:56 <myname> on the first one it only applies on the code itself
12:35:35 <oerjan> (some of this realization was due to looking at both versions, confusing which was the old and new one, and wondering why the new one was so much uglier.)
12:37:22 <oerjan> myname: erm the width looks identical to me
12:38:26 <elliott> the width is the same here
12:38:28 <elliott> what browser?
12:38:39 <elliott> but yes, code being inline and pre being block complicates this
12:38:41 <myname> the width of the cells are
12:38:50 <elliott> <oerjan> (some of this realization was due to looking at both versions, confusing which was the old and new one, and wondering why the new one was so much uglier.)
12:38:50 <elliott> heh
12:39:23 <oerjan> elliott: i had to revert a couple of <pre>'s to <code> because of that inline vs. block thing, i first got confused why it suddenly wrapped lines...
12:39:47 <oerjan> but those were the cells that mixed code and ordinary text
12:39:48 <elliott> oerjan: well the thing about this is that if you add any non-preformatted text in another cell on the same row, it'll grow to the same height as it was before turning into pre
12:39:52 <elliott> that makes it uglier, to me
12:39:59 <elliott> e.g., imagine if you have a table where only some rows have non-preformatted text
12:40:05 <elliott> it'll have varying heights of rows
12:40:11 <elliott> (assuming all the <pre>s are one line)
12:41:42 <oerjan> elliott: ok, but are you sure <code> has the same height as non-preformatted text, anyhow
12:42:57 <elliott> oerjan: well it's an inline element with no padding, margin or line-height, so I'm going to go with yes. but let me prepare a test
12:43:55 <elliott> oerjan: hm
12:43:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31225
12:43:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31227
12:44:03 <elliott> not quite, apparently
12:44:24 <elliott> but otoh
12:44:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31225
12:44:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Sandbox&oldid=31228
12:44:32 <elliott> pre.plain _is_ definitely less tall
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13:22:10 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/FAQ/KeepingTrack.html
13:26:54 <elliott> "During the test phase of the WWW project, the port number to which the daemon listens was 2784. W3 has officially allocated port number 80. Servers should use port 80 and advertise their address with the explicit port number (i.e. http://host:80/etc...)."
13:32:44 <Vorpal> Hm, I wonder if there will be a Portal 3? I just can't see where you would go from the ending of Portal 2 though...
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13:34:46 <fizzie> "Portal 3: Portal in Space"?
13:34:52 <Vorpal> hm
13:35:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, you pretty much have to change the protagonist though
13:35:31 <fizzie> Well, it could be Wheatley.
13:35:34 <fizzie> He's already in space.
13:35:42 <Vorpal> as the protagonist? Oh god
13:35:46 <fizzie> Ooh, or the Space Core.
13:35:59 <Vorpal> nah, that ended up in Tamriel
13:37:35 <elliott> "RFCs that include URLs as generic examples must be careful to use the particular example URLs defined in RFC 2606, "Reserved Top-Level DNS Names", to avoid accidental conflicts with real URLs.
13:37:35 <elliott> "
13:37:45 <elliott> RFC 2606 does not actually define any URLs at all.
13:37:51 <elliott> THANKS, RFC EDITOR!
13:38:09 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, spoilers. :(
13:38:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you haven't played Portal 2?
13:38:33 <elliott> No. I haven't played Portal, either.
13:38:49 <fizzie> And now you NEVER WILL ah ah AH ah.
13:38:54 <fizzie> Because: it was spoiled.
13:39:06 <elliott> I haven't played them because I don't have a computer that can play them.
13:39:19 <elliott> Well, the Mac should be able to. But that's in a box somewhere.
13:39:27 <elliott> And I don't have Windows installed on it.
13:39:48 <elliott> So, no, I haven't played Portal and Portal 2 yet, and would prefer to avoid spoilers for the latter.
13:39:58 <elliott> (Avoiding spoilers for Portal is impossible.)
13:39:58 <myname> play dwarf fortress :p
13:39:58 <ion> I finally have a computer that should run Portal well and perhaps even Portal 2 playably, but it seems something about the combination of Portal, Wine and fglrx doesn’t work very well.
13:40:07 <elliott> myname: I do.
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13:40:14 <myname> good!
13:40:16 <Vorpal> elliott, Portal 1 runs fine in wine btw
13:40:17 <Vorpal> not sure if that runs on OS X
13:40:21 <elliott> myname: It probably has higher system requirements than Portal, though.
13:40:23 <ion> I also have a copy of Portal, perhaps i’ll be able to play it some day. :-P
13:40:31 <elliott> But at least it doesn't suffer for terrible GPUs.
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13:40:34 <myname> elliott: not for the gpu
13:40:36 <elliott> Yeah.
13:40:44 <Vorpal> ion, I ran that very combination just fine. Some artifacts on the main menu though
13:40:45 <elliott> Well, I mean, it *could* simulate the tiles on a GPU.
13:40:48 <elliott> It's a pretty parallel thing.
13:40:56 <Vorpal> ion, (Radeon HD 6850)
13:40:56 <myname> it just cuts battery runtime to it's half here
13:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Wine does run on OS X. But it requires X11.
13:42:00 <elliott> A Windows partition is a better idea, but I'd have to shrink the OS X one, since I've got Linux on there.
13:42:11 <elliott> And the OS X partition doesn't have much wiggle room.
13:42:43 <elliott> Also, I don't really feel like buying the games separately, as opposed to just getting the Valve Complete Pack when I have a computer I *know* will be able to play them all.
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13:43:28 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough
13:43:37 <Taneb> Hello!
13:43:56 <nortti> elliott: What is so bad about X11?
13:44:11 <elliott> nortti: Well, everything. But it's more X11-on-OS X that's the problem here.
13:44:29 <elliott> It's rather irritating to use. Also I'm sceptical of its performance in a hardware-accelerated 3D game scenario.
13:44:30 <myname> :D
13:45:02 <myname> you could play portal on wine with linux *g*
13:45:02 <nortti> elliott: I have had no problems using it under OS X 10.4 on my iBook g4
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13:45:38 <elliott> nortti: And I bet you can't run Portal on it :P
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13:46:16 <nortti> elliott: well it is powerpc, so wine or steam doesn't really on it
13:46:30 <elliott> PRECISELY
13:46:46 <elliott> (You know Leopard runs on PPC, right?)
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13:47:38 <nortti> elliott: I know, but Leopard doesn't offer me anything worth the price and losing Classic mode
13:48:00 <elliott> Pffffft, "price".
13:48:11 <elliott> Those quaint Finns, paying for software and everything.
13:48:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> Also, I don't really feel like buying the games separately, as opposed to just getting the Valve Complete Pack when I have a computer I *know* will be able to play them all. <elliott> Those quaint Finns, paying for software and everything.
13:48:32 <Vorpal> lol
13:48:47 <elliott> (OK, so finding a half-decent Leopard ISO was a hellish experience.)
13:49:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Steam is more convenient than piracy.
13:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:49:44 <nortti> elliott: I strongly oppose piracy, but many people find it weird because I am member of piraattinuoret (Youth organization of pirate party of Finland)
13:49:59 <elliott> Which is annoying, because the things I hate about Steam are completely unrelated to the things that are awful about it.
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13:50:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:50:54 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, have you actually used steam? As soon as there is a sale on it becomes sluggish, and many games refuse to start due to connection issues.
13:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (What're the things you hate about Steam?_
13:51:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't, but I know enough people who have.
13:51:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Compare to torrents, which are ~always sluggish. :p
13:51:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 90% of it is the awful DRM.
13:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Not informed on that front; is it some online thing or other?
13:52:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I have used it, and yes it is convenient when it works. But more than once it had said "too high load to download game right now" or similar. And even when a game is actually installed it can fail to start if the severs are overloaded.
13:52:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, you have to be online to play (unless you turn on "offline mode" beforehand (which likes to turn itself off)).
13:52:15 <Vorpal> unlike a pirated copy, which just works
13:52:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The other 8% is the social nonsense, but that's more personal distaste of it than disliking that it actually exists.
13:52:30 <Vorpal> (well, it consistently either works or doesn't)
13:52:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The other .9% is the automatic, forced updates.
13:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> So, no, I haven't played Portal and Portal 2 yet, and would prefer to avoid spoilers for the latter.
13:52:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Wheatley turns out to be Mitch Calrus.
13:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I managed to get steam to stay in offline mode currently
13:52:55 <Vorpal> no clue how
13:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Pirated copies do not "just work".
13:53:14 <elliott> Ask Phantom_Hoover,.
13:53:18 <elliott> s/,\././
13:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ALTHOUGH:
13:53:21 <Vorpal> elliott, either they are buggy or they work, they don't depend on the load of a remote server.
13:53:25 <Vorpal> that was my point
13:53:30 <elliott> (Who gave in and bought Skyrim on Steam after multiple issues.)
13:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Using Steam is inconvenient when you forget where you left your debit card, hence why I am torrenting Fallout 3 right now.
13:53:49 <elliott> Vorpal: No, Phantom_Hoover managed to play the game just fine, it was just (a) a pain to get the pirated copy working and (b) had multiple issues afterwards.
13:53:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I have Skyrim on steam because I think it was worth the money.
13:54:02 <elliott> I don't care what you have on Steam.
13:54:07 <Vorpal> but I did play the pirated version earlier
13:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well it was mainly because I was too lazy to get the HD textures and I wanted to show up my friend who also pirated it.
13:54:21 <Vorpal> it was just the usual bugginess from a release version
13:54:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also because finding a reliable-looking pirated version of the patch was impossible, etc.
13:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yeah, that.
13:54:58 <elliott> Piracy is a lot more practical when there haven't been updates in the past five years, and there are no mods.
13:55:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, meh, the HD textures aren't really worth it, there are better third party HD textures, that actually improves many of the textures the HD pack didn't
13:55:08 <Vorpal> besides the HD pack is bugged
13:55:16 <Vorpal> or was at least
13:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I mean, the Nexus mods all worked fine with the pirated version.
13:55:31 <Vorpal> well yes
13:55:38 <nortti> "I agree that there should be a newbie subforum where people can ask questions without seven levels of hell immediately being emptied over them if they've asked something lazy or ignorant."
13:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Also shut up Vorpal, it works fine with the exception of one texture.
13:55:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the HD pack uses (used?) the normal map as the texture on something
13:56:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
13:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> One thing.
13:56:12 <Vorpal> indeed
13:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> One thing out of lots and lots of things.
13:56:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Which all look much better with the HD texture pack.
13:56:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe there were some minor issues elsewhere too, like a incorrectly named texture (so the improved one didn't actually show up)
13:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And don't need to conform to the obnoxious aesthetics of most modders.
13:58:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I prefer Nexus Mod Manager. The Steam Workshop 1) auto updates mods 2) is sluggish 3) seems to bug out randomly sometimes 3) Since I use the Script Extender I first have to launch the game from steam to the launcher to let it download updates, then I quit it and re-launch it from the script extender...
13:58:28 <Vorpal> (okay the last one isn't really Bethesda's or Valve's fault, but the other ones)
13:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I use NMM too you idiot.
13:59:22 <Vorpal> I didn't claim you didn't
13:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ...so why bring up Steamworks at all.
13:59:47 <Vorpal> "<Phantom_Hoover> Well, I mean, the Nexus mods all worked fine with the pirated version."
14:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The start of your sentence only makes sense if someone had previously mentioned Steamworks mods as a reason to use it.
14:00:19 <Vorpal> (I actually don't have any steam workshop mods currently, managed to find all on nexus now)
14:00:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, whatever
14:41:23 <elliott> ^celebrate
14:41:23 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:23 <myndzi\> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
14:41:24 <myndzi\> >\ /| /< | |\ |\ /'\ | /< >\ /|
14:41:24 <myndzi\> /\ /'¯|_)
14:41:24 <myndzi\> (_| |_) (_|
14:41:27 <elliott> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:27 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:41:31 <elliott> myndzi\: :(
14:41:39 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, you should add ^. to fungot.
14:41:40 <fungot> elliott: i'm lazy about comprehending things all the functionality is all that is needed by the perl fingerprint docs... hm...
14:44:23 <itidus21> so what I am to take away from this is that people are encouraged to pirate to avert the performance issues associated with DRM? :D
14:45:08 <itidus21> ahh i am so glad it will all be over one day
14:48:00 <elliott> where is ais when you need him.
15:02:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm removing yr matrix of solidity tooltip from the logo.
15:02:58 <RocketJSquirrel> :'(
15:03:02 <RocketJSquirrel> Why would you do that?
15:03:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=esolangs
15:03:29 <elliott> Observe the excerpt from the main page it uses.
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15:03:40 <RocketJSquirrel> LOLOLOL
15:03:43 <RocketJSquirrel> That's awesome.
15:03:46 <RocketJSquirrel> All the more reason to keep it!
15:03:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:04:00 <elliott> OUR CTR ON THAT QUERY IS ONLY 34% ;___;
15:04:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I tell ya what, I'll try and figure out a way to put it lower in the markup but still appear in the same place :P
15:04:43 <RocketJSquirrel> Better.
15:04:52 <itidus21> `pastelogs google matrix
15:05:20 <olsner> oh, now I know who RocketJSquirrel is
15:05:29 <fizzie> Hey, that's crazy: Google's preview screenshot of zem.fi actually shows one of the canvas-driven logos.
15:05:30 <HackEgo> No output.
15:05:36 <fizzie> The "ifsfeedback" one.
15:05:47 <fizzie> It looks a bit like matrix of solidity fanart.
15:05:52 <elliott> fizzie: Weeell, they pretty obviously use a Real Browser to do them, or websites would look terrible.
15:05:58 <elliott> fizzie: Considering how much stuff depends on JS, it's not surprising they run it.
15:05:59 <itidus21> i am not very fluent with pastelogs
15:06:26 <elliott> I imagine they run Chrome fullscreen in a VM, wait until it stops loading, wait a second or two, and then take a screenshot.
15:06:26 <fizzie> I.. guess, but I wouldn't have expected that. Especially since what with all the setTimeouts and such it takes five seconds or so to get that far.
15:06:41 <elliott> fizzie: Consider how many "apps" load the actual content with JS.
15:06:47 <elliott> Could easily take a few seconds, factoring in network delays.
15:06:48 <itidus21> `pastelogs bing matrix
15:07:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32185
15:07:04 <elliott> Admittedly it's not _un_surprising.
15:07:15 <itidus21> `pastelogs [b]ing matrix
15:07:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28959
15:07:28 <elliott> http://β.zem.fi/
15:07:31 <elliott> This is nicely reassuring.
15:07:39 <elliott> Please don't fix.
15:07:39 <itidus21> `pastelogs [b]ing
15:07:43 <fizzie> Oh, right. I should fix that.
15:07:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17633
15:07:55 <elliott> No.
15:07:56 <elliott> Noooooooo.
15:07:58 <elliott> Noooooooooooooooooooooooo.
15:08:02 <elliott> Leave my beta.
15:08:02 <elliott> ;_;
15:08:16 <fizzie> Oh well, I guess it could stay.
15:08:19 <elliott> It's the only thing I can trust to remain constant in this world!!!!
15:08:42 <itidus21> `pastelogs itidus trapped in
15:08:43 <fizzie> Anyway, zem.fi's most-impressions query is "logic gates". Sadly with "<10" clicks a month.
15:08:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16594
15:08:52 <elliott> Ours is "ook".
15:09:02 <elliott> It has a CTR of 0%.
15:09:03 <itidus21> ok ok i give up i leave it alone
15:09:11 <elliott> Despite being the ~4.1th result on the page.
15:09:22 <elliott> Out of 170,000 impressions, there have been 150 clicks.
15:09:22 <fizzie> "logic gates", "logic gate", "4 bit adder", "not gate" and "logički sklopovi" are in the top ten.
15:09:40 <elliott> (CTR /is/ clicks/impressions, right?)
15:09:51 <fizzie> I would certainly think so.
15:09:58 <elliott> Um. Why are the "crawl errors" in Polish?
15:10:03 <elliott> Ni bilo mogoče najti98
15:10:03 <elliott> Ni uspelo0
15:10:03 <elliott> Dostop zavrnjen0
15:10:03 <elliott> Napaka v strežniku0
15:10:03 <elliott> Programska napaka 4040
15:10:03 <elliott> Drugo0
15:11:01 <elliott> For some reason, Google has tried to request http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download.
15:11:08 <elliott> Oh, it was a spma.
15:11:29 <nortti> http://www.qdb.us/134635
15:11:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Ping.
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15:11:44 <Deewiant> Pong.
15:12:24 <ion> That would be an awesome name for an esolang.
15:13:26 <elliott> Deewiant: You still have the archived forum, right?
15:13:30 <elliott> ion: Yes, I was just thinking that.
15:13:45 <ion> Nora’s Hair Salon: 2.6/10. Nora’s Hair Salon II: 3.9/10. Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster: 1.1/10.
15:14:06 <elliott> Nora's Hair Salon II was really the creative pinnacle of the series. A modern classic.
15:14:11 <Deewiant> elliott: Yes
15:14:23 <nortti> it has been deleted by ais523. Does anyone know what it contained?
15:14:55 <elliott> nortti: Yes: <elliott> Oh, it was a spma.
15:15:00 <elliott> By which I mean a spam.
15:15:07 <elliott> But fizzie is around, so I start misspelling things.
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15:15:22 <elliott> nortti: I could show you what it was, but, uh... it's not terribly interesting.
15:16:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Okay.
15:17:09 <elliott> <b>IMDB Rating: </b> 0.0 out of 10 <br>
15:17:18 <elliott> Does including that in their spams really help their cause?
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15:20:21 <itidus21> so notch is going to do the idea of putting computers in a game.. but i can't say i didn't express the same general idea in the logs
15:20:38 <elliott> Deewiant: (I was thinking about putting up a static archive of the forum up at /forum/.)
15:20:51 <elliott> That might not do much good, since it's been 410'd for a while now.
15:21:57 <itidus21> that bastard keeps having all my ideas, improving on them dramatically, and implementing them in a way that makes him famous and wealthy
15:22:34 <itidus21> infact this is true of all bastards
15:24:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I can't figure out a way to get it to position correctly.
15:24:56 <elliott> Oh, hmm...
15:25:14 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:25:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, I could do it, but I'd have to use a table :(
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15:30:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: BUT THOU MUST
15:31:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'll do it if you help me figure out how to get the <h1> not to display in Google's snippet :P
15:31:47 <elliott> The problem is that there's a previous <h1>Main Page</h1> it's ignoring >_>
15:31:59 <elliott> So when it sees the next one it's all "lolol this is page content".
15:32:05 <elliott> Or something.
15:41:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Maybe I can keep the tooltip if I change the main page's <title> to "Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki" X-D
15:42:31 <RocketJSquirrel> PERFECT
15:43:43 <elliott> That has the ostensible mild downside of making bookmarks ugly unless you change the title.
15:43:51 <elliott> Though Wikipedia already do a similar thing (with "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia").
15:46:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Of course, I could also change the page title to "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity" and remove the tooltip.
15:49:10 <RocketJSquirrel> Even better!
15:53:26 <elliott> "Your recent edit(s) to Wikipedia:Sandbox were believed to be unconstructive, and so have been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any further testing, [...]" -- message left on a Wikipedia user talk page
15:53:49 <nortti> ...
16:01:20 <RocketJSquirrel> omg, it is so impossible to build bionic X_X
16:03:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What are you trying to do?
16:03:27 <RocketJSquirrel> ... build ... bionic.
16:03:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's the Y. What's X?
16:04:05 <elliott> I ask out of curiosity.
16:04:26 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm just wasting a day reëxploring the feasibility of NoGNU/Linux.
16:05:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That was my guess.
16:05:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Stop.
16:05:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Use musl.
16:05:47 <elliott> It is (a) just as GNU-free; (b) not GPL (though it is LGPL) and (c) actually works.
16:06:28 <elliott> bionic will be 100x as painful, even if you manage to get it to build, thanks to all the things it omits because Android doesn't need them.
16:06:30 <RocketJSquirrel> Isn't musl the one with the author who doesn't understand licensing?
16:06:38 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: No, that's dietlibc.
16:06:43 <elliott> musl is the new kid on the block (few years old).
16:06:54 <elliott> See http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html, http://www.etalabs.net/musl/faq.html.
16:06:58 <Deewiant> FWIW the AUR package bionic-svn built painlessly for me just now.
16:07:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's also ABI-compatible with glibc, though that's unlikely to matter to you.
16:07:25 <elliott> (It goes to great lengths to maintain that.)
16:08:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, how are you compiling things? I don't think clang works with a stock kernel quite yet...
16:08:40 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm using GCC first. I'll switch to clang when/if practical.
16:08:46 <RocketJSquirrel> I'll only have clang in the actual "distro" though.
16:08:52 <RocketJSquirrel> Linking is a problem.
16:09:35 <elliott> Linking with what?
16:09:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, clang is practical for everything except the kernel (and maybe libc? I don't think musl does anything weird, though.), pretty much...
16:10:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Though musl's C++ support is relatively new (for use with LLVM's libc++, I think).
16:10:25 <elliott> By relatively, I mean the null string.
16:10:40 <elliott> (Relevant because clang is C++ :P)
16:12:16 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Linking as in binutils.
16:13:23 <elliott> Ah.
16:13:39 <elliott> Yeah, gcc + binutils is pretty much the only GNU you need these days.
16:21:28 <RocketJSquirrel> / /tools/i686-linux-gnu/include/features.h:1:2: error: #warning "features.h is bogus" [-Werror=cpp]
16:21:29 <RocketJSquirrel> cc1: all warnings being treated as errors
16:21:39 <RocketJSquirrel> *shakes fist*
16:22:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: ?
16:24:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HEY GO LOOK AT http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page IT LOOKS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT NOW
16:27:28 -!- derdon has joined.
16:28:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: THERE'S MORE THAN THAT YOU IDIOT
16:29:21 -!- Frooxius has joined.
16:29:29 <RocketJSquirrel> Nothing else matters.
16:33:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But they also removed the title, you see!
16:33:13 <elliott> THE MOST HIDEOUS VANDAL
16:35:21 <RocketJSquirrel> conftest.c:1:0: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
16:35:22 <RocketJSquirrel> Classy
16:37:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Are you still trying to compile bionic?
16:38:05 <RocketJSquirrel> No
16:38:10 <RocketJSquirrel> I've got musl goin'.
16:38:13 <elliott> Ah :P
16:38:16 <RocketJSquirrel> But my musl-compiled GCC is fucky.
16:38:23 <RocketJSquirrel> (That's the technical term)
16:38:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Which GCC version?
16:38:32 <elliott> pikhq_ has successfully bootstrapped a musl/gcc system.
16:38:39 <elliott> So he might be of help.
16:38:47 <elliott> IIRC the standard thing is to bootstrap GCC 3 first and then use that to compile 4.
16:38:52 <RocketJSquirrel> I think I had a misconfiguration, I'm trying again.
16:39:39 <sebbu> ppl still use gcc3 ?
16:40:08 <elliott> sebbu: Only for bootstrapping :P
16:41:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Eeyup, my musl-built GCC is fucky.
16:44:04 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: FIX MY GCC KTHX
16:45:47 <elliott> Hey RocketJSquirrel, how the hell do you overlap two CSS gradients >_>
16:45:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is the CERTIFIED CSS EXPERT.
16:48:20 <RocketJSquirrel> With magic.
16:48:22 <RocketJSquirrel> And friendship.
16:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @ping
16:49:11 <lambdabot> pong
16:52:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How many people are still on Firefox 3 these days?
16:53:00 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: "Few"
16:53:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel is the CERTIFIED BROWSER EXPERT.
16:53:14 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But 4 only came out in 2011 :'(
16:55:21 <nortti> elliott: computers at my school. At least they got rid of Firefox 2 installs at the end of 2011
16:56:04 <elliott> You mean I can systematically punish people at your school by merely removing these obsolete vendor prefixes??
16:56:05 <elliott> AWESOME
16:56:50 <nortti> elliott: what do you mean by obsolete vendor prefixes?
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16:57:18 <sebbu> who still use firefox <= 10 ?
16:57:23 <sebbu> :p
16:57:36 <elliott> nortti: <div style="background: #EEF; vertical-align: top; border: 1em solid #EEF; border-bottom-left-radius: 1em; border-bottom-right-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 1em">
16:57:51 <sebbu> oh, browser specific code
16:57:56 <elliott> Firefox has supported the standard versions since 4.0, and changing TWICE THE VALUES is an UNACCEPTABLE BURDEN on me :P
16:58:08 <elliott> sebbu: I use Firefox G_64.
16:58:10 <elliott> (Out next month.)
16:58:15 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: FIX MY GCC FIX IT NOW
16:58:16 <sebbu> G_64 ?
16:58:19 <sebbu> what's that ?
16:58:27 <nortti> I got one teacher to update her computer to Firefox 10, but she doesn't wan't to update to 11. Good thing FF 10 is ESR
16:58:34 <elliott> sebbu: Graham's number.
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16:58:51 <nortti> I use TenFourFox unstable 11
16:59:17 <elliott> nortti: Pfft, Classilla is where it's at.
16:59:21 <sebbu> i'll use wildfox then
16:59:29 <elliott> As far as Mozilla browsers for obsolete Macintosh computers goes.
16:59:38 * elliott has ACTUALLY USED Classilla.
16:59:57 <sebbu> well, i used k-meleon
17:00:02 <nortti> elliott: I also have Classilla 9.3 and I use it at least one day a week
17:00:25 <elliott> OK, yer weird.
17:01:39 <nortti> I have used K-Meleon, Firebird, Pathworks Mosaic and Netscape 5(pre-alpha) and I still use Classilla, Camino and Mosaic-CK
17:02:54 <elliott> I didn't use Firefox before it became Firefox.
17:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:03:35 <nortti> I own 3 C64s and I plan to connect one of them to Internet, I have working MacMINIX install on weekly use and I have programmed my own OS in 16bit asm
17:03:58 <nortti> so you can call me weird if you want
17:05:01 <elliott> You're in the middling ranks of weird at best; call me when you rewrite that OS with your own assembler and start using your own Conkeror fork (with an insane license) to browse.
17:06:28 <nortti> elliott: I plan to build my own computer with my own processor architecture, then write my own OS to it and start using my own browser
17:06:42 <nortti> also I hate emacs key bindings
17:07:18 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:08:09 <nortti> I could also program my OS in a version of my own SSBPL programming language
17:09:57 <nortti> How many weirdopoints do I get if I start to use RISC OS as my main os?
17:11:25 <elliott> I have decided to stop offering public advertisements weirdopoints.
17:14:39 -!- cheater has joined.
17:29:57 <elliott> I like how our main page circa 2006 looks like it evolved into the current main page over the years, despite actually going through a completely different design in the middle: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=next&oldid=5672
17:30:06 <elliott> (I didn't see that old one before making the new one.)
17:31:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Did you add the day of the day in response to http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=17414? :P
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17:32:49 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: lol, no, somebody on #esoteric said we should have a page of the day.
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17:35:24 <elliott> Ah :P
17:36:13 <nortti> does anyone know where I can download BeOS 5 PE?
17:38:06 <elliott> I thought you strongly opposed piracy.
17:38:57 <nortti> elliott: it is the freeware version¨
17:39:01 <elliott> Ah.
17:39:03 <elliott> Wikipedia has a link.
17:39:09 <elliott> http://www.bebits.com/app/2680
17:39:26 <elliott> I managed to get a pirated BeOS' installer to run in a VM once. But never the thing itself.
17:40:21 <nortti> there is no download for BeOS itself on that page
17:41:29 <elliott> Then what is "BeOS R5 Personal Edition for Windows"?
17:41:39 <elliott> And "BeOS R5 Personal Edition for Linux".
17:42:11 <nortti> not the standalone versions
17:42:56 <elliott> Was there a standalone version?
17:43:06 <RocketJSquirrel> New idea: NoGNU/Linux by way of OpenWatcom's shitty libc ^^
17:44:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: btw
17:44:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: were you using the musl-gcc wrapper?
17:45:20 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes? Shouldn't I have been?
17:46:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes.
17:46:38 <elliott> Just wondering if you were doing some wild gcc hack to get it working that was causing you troubles instead.
17:48:32 <RocketJSquirrel> The musl page only reports GCC 3 as working ...
17:49:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The musl page is fairly old.
17:49:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But I recommend you try GCC 3 anyway.
17:49:27 <elliott> (And then bootstrap 4 with it.)
17:49:38 <elliott> That seems to be what most people do.
17:49:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: #musl is helpful, anyway.
17:49:44 <elliott> The dev is there.
17:50:08 <RocketJSquirrel> Hm hm hm.
17:53:05 <RocketJSquirrel> *builds gcc3*
17:57:04 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You might need that fixinc.sh thing.
17:57:07 <elliott> Dunno if it's still required.
18:01:19 <RocketJSquirrel> GCC thinks it's i686-linux-gnulibc1
18:01:20 <RocketJSquirrel> lol
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18:04:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That shouldn't be a problem.
18:04:41 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I mean, ABI-compatibility means that all the internal structures have the same in-memory layout and all.
18:04:46 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
18:05:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:05:03 <elliott> The observable difference is mostly in header files (musl is much stricter about not leaking additional non-standard names or names from other headers into the namespace).
18:06:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:06:26 <RocketJSquirrel> "musl is much stricter about not leaking additional non-standard names or names from other headers into the namespace" I find this extraordinarily difficult to believe.
18:06:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:08:05 <RocketJSquirrel> glibc's DEFAULT is very lax, but if you use -std=c99 or -ansi or what have you, it's unbelievably strict.
18:09:10 <RocketJSquirrel> I notice that pikhq_ has a self-bootstrapping musl-based DISTRO in github.
18:09:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Why was I not informed.
18:11:50 <RocketJSquirrel> Unfortunately it uses busybox, which is not quite FSF-free.
18:11:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I implied it!
18:12:03 <elliott> busybox is waaaay not FSF free.
18:12:09 <elliott> IIRC half of it is basically ripped from coreutils.
18:12:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Christian Neukirchen has such a distro too.
18:12:29 <elliott> Might be more complete.
18:12:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:12:45 <elliott> https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage
18:12:54 <elliott> Make that https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage.
18:12:57 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yeah, but I think that there exists some not entirely terrible subset of busybox that is FSF-free X-D
18:12:59 <elliott> Argh
18:13:02 <elliott> Make that http://chneukirchen.github.com/sabotage/.
18:13:15 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: And I looked at sabotage too, but unless I'm completely misunderstanding, it actually uses a GCC statically compiled against glibc.
18:13:35 <RocketJSquirrel> At least that's what the scripts seemed to imply.
18:14:53 <RocketJSquirrel> Or not, what do I know ^^
18:15:05 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That would be weird, since he called it a bootstrapping distro, but OK.
18:15:13 <elliott> (Well, "I bootstrapped a distro".)
18:15:18 <elliott> (I don't think "bootstrapping distro" means anything.)
18:15:29 <elliott> (Well, I guess it does, by analogy with "bootstrapping compiler".)
18:15:39 <RocketJSquirrel> Yeah, I don't rightly have any idea what I'm babbling about *shrugs*
18:17:22 * elliott wonders wtf the "By e-mail" button on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UserLogin/signup does.
18:17:58 <elliott> Oh, chooses a password randomly and emails it to you.
18:18:19 <elliott> Ahhh
18:18:21 <elliott> It's for admins
18:18:26 <elliott> To create accounts for other users without compromising them
18:19:47 <elliott> No, it's for anyone, not just admins. Okay.
18:20:00 <elliott> No, not anyone, it's for admins.
18:26:49 <fizzie> Flip, flop, flip, flop.
18:29:04 * Sgeo shoots elliott with a SuperBullet
18:29:14 <Sgeo> Oh, that reminds me, want the ISO?
18:30:02 <monqy> hi
18:30:03 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:30:12 <elliott> Not today. I'm unlikely to play today and it'd hog my bandwidth.
18:30:17 <monqy> what a cryptic message
18:30:41 <Sgeo> Oh, sorry
18:32:07 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I can't get any of this shit to build X_X
18:32:48 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I bet it's Debian's fault.
18:33:15 <RocketJSquirrel> ... probably.
18:34:13 <RocketJSquirrel> What's the easiest distro to bootstrap into a chroot other than Debian ^^
18:35:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ubuntu.
18:35:51 <elliott> As for anything else, just use a VM.
18:35:59 <elliott> BTW, I was joking about it being Debian's fault.
18:36:32 <RocketJSquirrel> I know, but you're probably right, GCC is nutty to build on Debian even when you're NOT using some weird libc it's never heard of.
18:44:49 <olsner> elliott: "[...] it's easier to use the "Move" link from the drop-down menu next to "View history". "
18:44:56 <olsner> I see no such drop-down menu
18:47:01 <elliott> olsner: Hmm.
18:47:09 <elliott> Oh.
18:47:12 <elliott> IPs can't do that. :(
18:51:26 * pikhq_ wakes
18:52:34 <elliott> @ask ais523 Is there any reason not to enable moves for unregistered users on the wiki?
18:52:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:56:00 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that bootstrap-linux is the only thing that *actually* bootstraps ATM.
18:56:33 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: In that sabotage does not?
18:56:37 <pikhq_> Yes.
18:56:38 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: In probably a couple months we should be able to switch to toybox. (Robert Landley's busybox-alike)
18:57:50 <pikhq_> In the meantime, the only necessary FSF stuff is GCC, Binutils, GNU Make, and whatever's in busybox.
18:58:11 <RocketJSquirrel> So, virtually the entire system.
18:58:52 <pikhq_> Trust me when I say that just getting glibc out is huge.
18:59:09 <pikhq_> Getting Binutils out is going to be a major PITA, as is GNU Make...
19:00:57 <RocketJSquirrel> I only care about "user" stuff, so GCC/binutils/make actually aren't that big of a concern to me.
19:01:02 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm more curious about coreutils.
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19:01:23 <pikhq_> Busybox doesn't seem to have much FSF in it from what I've looked at.
19:01:34 <pikhq_> It's merely bad rather than apeshit.
19:01:51 -!- _net_split has joined.
19:02:26 <pikhq_> (FSF coreutils requires the ability to poke libc datastructures, which Busybox certainly doesn't.)
19:03:44 <coppro> pikhq_: what's this?
19:04:26 <pikhq_> coppro: Look at gnulib and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
19:07:32 <RocketJSquirrel> http://sprunge.us/ejID <-- busybox corruption
19:07:54 <RocketJSquirrel> Nowait
19:07:56 <RocketJSquirrel> That's a total lie.
19:09:10 <pikhq_> I'm *quite* confident the LZO code is not GNU. :)
19:09:40 <elliott> <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: In probably a couple months we should be able to switch to toybox. (Robert Landley's busybox-alike)p
19:09:40 <pikhq_> And util-linux is definitely copied from util-linux.
19:09:45 <elliott> s/p$//
19:09:52 <elliott> pikhq_: "Robert Landley's" is amusing, considering he's one of the core BusyBox developers :P
19:10:00 <pikhq_> elliott: Formerly.
19:10:07 <elliott> I'm pretty sure he rejoined.
19:10:09 <pikhq_> elliott: Now he's just a guy who does patches every now and then.
19:10:17 <pikhq_> He's definitely not core.
19:10:21 <elliott> Fair enough.
19:10:28 <elliott> The main thing I remember is that he's delusional about licensing.
19:11:04 <pikhq_> Not very delusional, more just bitter about how GPLv3 has put people off of GPL...
19:11:07 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq_> And util-linux is definitely copied from util-linux. // util-linux isn't FSF, is it?
19:11:37 <RocketJSquirrel> http://sprunge.us/BjNN <-- real coreutils corruption
19:11:42 <RocketJSquirrel> s/coreutils/busybox/
19:11:44 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: util-linux is Linux. :)
19:12:14 <elliott> <pikhq_> Not very delusional, more just bitter about how GPLv3 has put people off of GPL...
19:12:18 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't refer to anything about GPLv3.
19:12:37 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: Right, no shit, so it's not FSF.
19:12:46 <RocketJSquirrel> My goal isn't to get rid of GPL, it's a NoGNU/Linux.
19:12:53 <pikhq_> elliott: So what do you refer to?
19:13:04 <elliott> pikhq_: I refer to his characterisation of Bruce Perens' (i.e. original author of BusyBox) outrage when they unilaterally changed the license without his permission.
19:13:23 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: Likewise... GNU stuff sucks from a technical PoV.
19:13:24 <pikhq_> elliott: ?
19:13:35 <pikhq_> elliott: Seriously, I have no idea that shit happened.
19:13:50 <RocketJSquirrel> So anyway, my conclusion is that bootstrap-linux ALMOST meets my requirements as stands.
19:13:53 <elliott> There is a fair claim that there was none of his work remaining at the time they relicensed it, but (a) he only undertook the analysis of that to "make him go away"; and (b) I'm not sure you can say "I rewrote all the lines piece by piece" as an argument you don't have a derivative work.
19:13:54 <RocketJSquirrel> busybox isn't actually that corrupted.
19:14:18 <elliott> pikhq_: (I believe the outrage was only when they started /litigating/ about the license, too, not just when it happened.)
19:14:20 <RocketJSquirrel> (Still too corrupted, but not CRAZY corrupted)
19:15:02 <elliott> pikhq_: http://www.osnews.com/story/22618/BusyBox_Author_Bruce_Perens_on_the_GPL_Lawsuit http://busybox.net/~landley/forensics.txt
19:15:08 <shachaf> cheater: Hi.
19:15:11 <shachaf> Oops.
19:17:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever finish your Magic: The Gathering software?
19:17:56 <cheater> shachaf: yo what's up little buddy
19:18:01 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you mean TeXnicard? Not quite yet, but in future I might work on it more; and anyone else is free to submit whatever you want that I might or might not include with it.
19:18:33 <shachaf> zzo38: What are you working on these days/
19:19:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Various things
19:19:07 -!- derdon has joined.
19:20:32 <pikhq_> elliott: Amusingly, Landley is now trying to get projects *off* of GPL.
19:25:03 <zzo38> Note that even though TeXnicard is not yet complete, it still does many things far better than MSE and other programs. TeXnicard will do plurals of words better than MSE, and will convert numbers to words all the way up to "nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine", and sorts titles in a natural way including roman numerals, has more options for statistics, etc
19:25:16 -!- nortti has joined.
19:25:36 <zzo38> Even the current version can probably be used if you do not want to print out the actual cards; since that is the only thing missing (although it is partially implemented).
19:25:48 <elliott> zzo38: What about nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine plus one?
19:25:59 <pikhq_> It's probably not even *hard* to do better than MSE.
19:26:02 <pikhq_> MSE *sucks*.
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19:28:24 <itidus21> if i apply a thesaurus word-swapper to a piece of text does that count as rewritten? :D
19:28:42 <nortti> I am going to troll my school tomorow by installing bblean on school computers and setting it as default shell
19:29:07 <itidus21> being or not being. this is the question
19:30:41 <itidus21> Tomorrow my educational center shall be trolled when i install bblean as default shell on computers there.
19:31:13 <monqy> me too
19:31:39 <itidus21> it's my idea
19:32:07 <monqy> I'll credit you
19:32:15 <nortti> itidus21: my idea
19:32:31 <itidus21> i believe that i reworded your idea
19:33:53 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it is not built-in to the "plain.cards", although everything in that file can be overridden. However, numbers are usually limited to 32 bits.
19:35:02 <nortti> yes you did. You reworded it, but it is still my idea I got when my parents watched in horror me using bblean in my own account on our shared computer
19:36:45 <zzo38> Other features I intend which are not yet implemented, include: indexed and searchable card database of many sets together, sales tracking, and a way to parse sentences in card texts into computer codes so that the game can be played by computer including enforcing and automating the rules.
19:37:06 <itidus21> we'll find out in court pinko
19:38:32 <itidus21> i do have a theory though.. tribal source code sharing
19:38:46 <zzo38> pikhq_: I agree; it does have many problems. Although, even WotC uses MSE for doing fake cards and playtest cards and so on.
19:38:53 <itidus21> forming tribes on the internet who freely share code among themselves but exclude everyone else
19:39:04 <nortti> why?
19:39:10 <pikhq_> zzo38: Doesn't make it suck less. :)
19:39:15 <itidus21> because they trust each other
19:39:21 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I agree.
19:39:52 <itidus21> trust.. a strange legal jurisdiction where people are not compelled to sue each other :D
19:40:31 <zzo38> It is also my intention, that if you use a Magic: the Gathering template with TeXnicard, that if you have the correct printing equipment, you can produce better quality cards than the official Magic: the Gathering cards. But it is also my intention that there is nothing specific to Magic: the Gathering built in to the program (unlike MSE, which does have some).
19:44:08 <nortti> itidus21: what if someone leaks the code outside the tribe?
19:44:21 <itidus21> yeah...
19:44:32 <itidus21> its never gonna be perfect
19:44:45 <itidus21> i dunno if tribe is the most apt term or not..
19:45:11 <Sgeo> MSE?
19:45:18 <zzo38> If you have any other ideas about TeXnicard, you can write on: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard
19:45:18 <itidus21> nortti: well yeah trust can fail..
19:45:25 <itidus21> thats the trouble with it
19:45:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know Magic Set Editor?
19:45:42 <itidus21> and the larger a group is the more likely that trust will break down
19:45:47 <Sgeo> No, but now I do. Or at least have heard of it now
19:49:36 <zzo38> (You will need an account to write on the Redmine page for TeXnicard.)
19:50:03 <zzo38> (You can also use the IRC for the project; it is always logged to public file.)
19:50:19 <itidus21> nortti: i do think it will happen though in the long run.. the tower of babel of the internet is due to collapse
19:50:38 <itidus21> for much of the same reasons amusingly
19:50:53 <itidus21> i suspect
19:51:14 <nortti> people starting to speak different languages?
19:51:54 <itidus21> its getting absurd.. guys making something like facebook and becoming multibillionares almost overnight
19:52:11 <itidus21> porn and advertising seeping from every crevice
19:52:44 <itidus21> identity thieves of all sorts
19:53:09 <itidus21> crackers of all sorts.. and corporations with lawyers
19:53:14 <zzo38> One problem with MSE is WYSIWYG; TeXnicard is designed from the start to be not WYSIWYG.
19:53:58 <itidus21> wikileaks, anonymous, SOPA, PIPA
19:55:14 <itidus21> maybe what'll happen is they'll zone off the internet into commercial and residential districts
19:55:42 <itidus21> and different laws for each
19:55:45 <itidus21> ^_^
19:55:50 <itidus21> that could be fun
19:56:25 <nortti> itidus21: there is one funny picture about assange an zuckenberg. assange: "I give private information of companies to people for free and I am criminal" zuckenberg: "I give private infirmation of people to companies for money and I am the man of the year"
19:56:47 <nortti> *asange
19:57:16 <nortti> *assange
19:57:40 <itidus21> since you dont know me that well im esolang/math-illiterate here and i think mostly tolerated for comic relief
19:58:01 <itidus21> but sometimes i wear patience thin
19:58:58 <itidus21> basically im part-troll and found my way here very differently from most here
19:59:57 <itidus21> i just get worried when people entertain my rants
20:00:22 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:01:25 <zzo38> I only intend TeXnicard to support PNG for picture load/save format; using the LodePNG library which happens to be written by a same guy who invented some esolangs too.
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20:06:42 <elliott> Perfect.
20:07:47 <monqy> hi maharba bye maharba
20:08:04 <nortti> `?itidus21
20:08:07 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?itidus21: not found
20:08:33 <nortti> `? itidus21
20:08:36 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
20:08:45 <itidus21> lol thats true!
20:09:07 <zzo38> Do you know if there is anything adding some function to Haskell "gloss" library that can have I/O action inside of something such as: playIO :: forall x y. Display -> Color -> Int -> x -> (x -> Picture) -> (Event -> x -> IO (Either y x)) -> (Float -> x -> IO (Either y x)) -> IO y;
20:09:18 <itidus21> i also have another id itidus20
20:09:19 <zzo38> (A variant of the existing "play" function)
20:09:33 <itidus21> `? itidus20
20:09:36 <HackEgo> itidus20 is horny 60 year olds having cybersex in minecraft
20:09:47 <elliott> Didn't itidus21 add that?
20:09:55 <nortti> ...
20:10:01 <itidus21> i forget
20:10:08 <elliott> `run echo "itidus20's entry has been censored." >wisdom/itidus20
20:10:10 <HackEgo> No output.
20:10:23 <nortti> `? nortti
20:10:26 <HackEgo> nortti? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:10:53 <nortti> `run uname
20:10:56 <HackEgo> Linux
20:11:31 <elliott> inb4 rm -rf /
20:11:35 <nortti> `run uname -a
20:11:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
20:12:06 <nortti> `run cat /etc/passwd
20:12:09 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
20:12:21 <nortti> damn
20:12:46 <nortti> `run pwd; ls
20:12:50 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
20:12:55 <elliott> nortti: You realise /etc/passwd doesn't contain passwords these days, right?
20:13:31 <nortti> elliott: yes I do. I just wanted to get other info
20:13:43 <elliott> `run id -a
20:13:46 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=456962
20:13:49 <elliott> HTH
20:14:03 <elliott> Oh, -a doesn't actually do anything.
20:14:12 <elliott> `id
20:14:13 <elliott> `id
20:14:13 <elliott> `id
20:14:14 <elliott> `id
20:14:15 <elliott> `id
20:14:22 <nortti> `run ps -ef
20:14:29 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=983334
20:14:36 <HackEgo> UID PID PPID C STIME TTY TIME CMD \ 0 1 0 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 /init \ 0 2 0 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [kworker/u:0] \ 0 6 2 0 20:14 ? 00:00:00 [rcu_kthread]
20:14:40 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=843613
20:14:40 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=979185
20:14:42 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=380064
20:14:42 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=380064
20:15:22 <fizzie> `run cat /proc/cpuinfo #just curious
20:15:25 <HackEgo> processor.: 0 \ vendor_id : User Mode Linux \ model name.: UML \ mode..: skas \ host..: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips.: 555.41 \
20:15:37 <fizzie> That's not too many bogomips.
20:15:56 <nortti> `run lshw
20:15:59 <HackEgo> bash: lshw: command not found
20:16:13 <nortti> `run lspci
20:16:16 <HackEgo> bash: lspci: command not found
20:16:17 <fizzie> There's not so much "hw" to "ls" under UML, anyway.
20:16:41 <nortti> UML?
20:16:46 <elliott> User Mode Linux.
20:16:59 <elliott> `run ps -ef | paste # this is how you view larger outputs
20:17:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25163
20:17:13 <fizzie> `run ls /sys/class/
20:17:16 <HackEgo> bdi \ block \ firmware \ mem \ misc \ net \ tty
20:17:22 <fizzie> That's so *sparse*.
20:17:47 <fizzie> There's like 47 classes on /sys/class here.
20:17:57 <elliott> $ ls /sys/class | wc -l
20:17:57 <elliott> 40
20:18:29 <nortti> `run ifconfig | paste
20:18:32 <HackEgo> bash: ifconfig: command not found \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26276
20:22:53 <elliott> `run rm -rf /
20:22:56 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
20:23:01 <elliott> `run rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
20:23:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/uevent': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/modalias': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/subsystem': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/devices/platform/alarmtimer/driver':
20:23:07 <elliott> `run rm -rf .
20:23:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
20:23:12 <elliott> `run rm -rf *
20:23:15 <HackEgo> No output.
20:23:21 <elliott> `ls
20:23:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
20:23:39 <nortti> `ls /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste
20:23:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste: No such file or directory
20:23:56 <fizzie> You forgot 'run'.
20:24:06 <fizzie> It's not a real shell without.
20:24:45 <nortti> `run ls /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin | paste
20:24:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7785
20:25:27 <fizzie> Also the "rm -rf *" demonstration is just begging for someone to "ls | grep -v canary | xargs rm -rf" or something.
20:26:28 <nortti> `run chmod 000 *; chown root
20:26:31 <HackEgo> chown: missing operand after `root' \ Try `chown --help' for more information.
20:26:32 <HackEgo> Failed to record changes.
20:26:48 <elliott> fizzie: Except the people who do that don't know what significance that file has until you tell them.
20:27:04 <elliott> (No, people don't deduce it from the name. I've asked.)
20:27:09 <nortti> `run ls -l
20:27:12 <HackEgo> total 128 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Mar 18 20:27 canary \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 24 Mar 18 20:27 karma \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 8192 Mar 18 20:27 paste \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 95628 Mar 18 20:27 quotes \ drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 share \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Mar 18 20:27 wisdom
20:27:31 <nortti> cat canary | paste
20:27:42 <elliott> You forgot the `.
20:27:49 <fizzie> But it's *right there*, and it's called that. Oh well.
20:27:52 <RocketJSquirrel> <fizzie> Also the "rm -rf *" demonstration is just begging for someone to "ls | grep -v canary | xargs rm -rf" or something. // the canary isn't there to prevent interesting "exploits", it's there to prevent stupid ones.
20:27:56 <nortti> `run cat canary | paste
20:27:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4760
20:28:17 <RocketJSquirrel> Since the first thing anybody does with HackEgo is `run rm -rf *
20:29:03 <fizzie> Also cat ate the canary, I see what happened there.
20:29:34 <RocketJSquirrel> OMG CAT ATE THE CANARY LOLLERS
20:30:19 <nortti> ls | grep -v canary | xargs chmod 000
20:30:37 <nortti> `run ls | grep -v canary | xargs chmod 000
20:30:40 <HackEgo> No output.
20:30:41 <HackEgo> Failed to record changes.
20:33:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:33:35 <nortti> is canary a file that cannot be deleted?
20:35:19 <RocketJSquirrel> `run ls -l canary ; rm canary ; ls -l canary # It can be deleted!
20:35:22 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Mar 18 20:35 canary \ ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
20:35:33 <Sgeo> What's the canary?
20:36:10 <nortti> `run :{ :|: }; :
20:36:13 <HackEgo> bash: :{: command not found
20:36:37 <fizzie> The saddest face.
20:36:59 <nortti> `run :(){ :|: }; :
20:37:02 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:38:26 <zzo38> Ticket #25 of gloss has functions with I/O, but they don't allow having a final result, and I do not think it to be sensible for the (world -> Picture) to also have I/O actions.
20:39:46 <nortti> `run :(){ :|:& };:
20:39:49 <HackEgo> No output.
20:40:11 <nortti> nooo! my fork bomb!
20:42:39 <nortti> `run tty
20:42:40 * Sgeo is currently obsessed with: BZFlag.
20:42:42 <HackEgo> ​/dev/tty1
20:43:17 <monqy> ??cool what is bzflag
20:43:49 <Sgeo> Tank game with flags
20:44:00 <Sgeo> Often Capture the Flag, but not always
20:44:04 <Sgeo> And superflags give you powers.
20:44:11 <Sgeo> http://bzflag.org/
20:44:26 <nortti> `run dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/tty1 bs=1024 count=1024
20:44:29 <HackEgo> dd: opening `/dev/tty1': Permission denied
20:46:07 <RocketJSquirrel> `cat /dev/urandom
20:46:10 <HackEgo> ​..*SZ.$HU.RX.l./.fs|xFe侈*K'Rհ.ĜA, \ ߡ7wXu.W..A.M:.A@ZΫȫD..?..lWYY.
20:47:37 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: To what degree does toybox currently exist?
20:47:47 <elliott> 100%
20:47:51 <elliott> there's a bootstrapping distro that uses it
20:48:02 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: It's just not enough to bootstrap yet.
20:48:04 <pikhq_> elliott: No.
20:48:19 <pikhq_> It's pretty close, though.
20:48:27 <pikhq_> http://www.landley.net/hg/toybox Here's the repo.
20:49:12 <RocketJSquirrel> There seems to be a disagreement between those two answers :0
20:49:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:49:34 <elliott> pikhq_: Didn't Aboriginal Linux used to use toybox?
20:49:40 <elliott> *use
20:50:14 <zzo38> And I agree ticket #28 as well.
20:50:48 <pikhq_> elliott: I don't think so.
20:50:58 <pikhq_> Though soon it will.
20:51:22 <pikhq_> The thing is, toybox only recently came off hold and is now being fleshed out into something useful.
20:52:44 <nortti> so what is the difference between busybox and toybox?
20:53:05 <pikhq_> nortti: Toybox sucks less.
20:53:14 <pikhq_> And is not done.
20:53:18 <elliott> "Eventually, we'll start using toybox again"
20:53:28 <elliott> "again"
20:53:30 <pikhq_> Strange.
20:53:41 <pikhq_> I've not seen it with enough tools to actually be used as coreutils.
20:54:08 <nortti> pikhq_: what sucks about busybox
20:54:14 <pikhq_> At the moment, it's missing some fairly essential tools like grep.
20:54:17 <pikhq_> nortti: Look at the code.
20:54:24 <pikhq_> It's pretty painful.
20:56:55 <nortti> is the idea behind toybox to create nonGNU/Linux?
20:58:59 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
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21:01:55 <RocketJSquirrel> Buildin' me some sabotage.
21:02:56 <elliott> So you're a saboteur.
21:04:26 -!- nortti has quit (Client Quit).
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21:10:54 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It would appear so.
21:12:31 <RocketJSquirrel> suckless.org appears to currently suck more.
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21:24:30 <Sgeo> According to suckless, XChat sucks
21:24:34 * Sgeo sads
21:24:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Howso
21:24:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:25:02 <elliott> hi ais523
21:25:25 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It was down until the INSTANT YOU CHECKED.
21:25:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You and I seem to have that affect.
21:25:45 <elliott> *effect
21:26:10 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes.
21:26:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Now I'm wondering what you were on suckless.org for.
21:26:56 <elliott> Stali?
21:27:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You know, 9base might just be compatible enough to use as a coreutils: http://tools.suckless.org/9base
21:27:24 <elliott> Not sure I'd bet on it, though.
21:27:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I suggest using makepp as your make: http://makepp.sourceforge.net/
21:27:57 <elliott> Since it claims near GNU Make-compatibility. And isn't GNU.
21:28:02 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: sabotage includes 9base.
21:28:15 <elliott> Yah, but does it use them as the main toolset?
21:28:23 <elliott> Or was that the answer to "what you were on suckless.org for"?
21:28:39 <RocketJSquirrel> The latter.
21:28:51 <ais523> hi elliott
21:28:51 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:28:55 <ais523> @messages
21:28:56 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2h 36m 20s ago: Is there any reason not to enable moves for unregistered users on the wiki?
21:29:34 <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert
21:29:39 <elliott> ais523: (context: the Basic Input/Output Commander did a copy-paste-move to a new name, and I had to learn how to do a history merge)
21:29:40 <ais523> if you don't expect anyone to try that, no reason not to
21:29:44 <elliott> (these two facts are related)
21:29:59 <elliott> it wasn't even quite a copy-paste move; it was a copy-modify heavily-paste move
21:30:33 <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:30:37 <ais523> the method used to be to delete the new name, rename the old name to the new name, undelete the new name, revert to the revision that's meant to be top
21:30:42 <elliott> talk about high-maintanence...
21:30:45 <ais523> elliott: hahaha
21:30:47 <elliott> ais523: that still is the method
21:30:54 <elliott> if Wikipedia's manual is up-to-date
21:30:56 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:31:02 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:31:05 <HackEgo> 824) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
21:31:09 <ais523> elliott: well, you've been able to combine the rename and delete for ages
21:31:28 <ais523> and around when I left Wikipedia there were rumours that the devs were writing a less awkward way to histmerge and histsplit
21:31:31 <ais523> looks like that fell through
21:31:33 <ais523> `quote
21:31:34 <ais523> `quote
21:31:34 <elliott> ais523: (their edits were limited to changing the language to the new name, but since they admitted the language changed quite a bit since renaming, it's ridiculous)
21:31:36 <ais523> `quote
21:31:36 <HackEgo> 615) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
21:31:37 <ais523> `quote
21:31:39 <ais523> `quote
21:31:46 <HackEgo> 276) <Gregor> I'm blond with blue (sort of) eyes, so I could totally stealth my way through the holocaust ... or some such logic :P
21:31:49 <HackEgo> 579) <Patashu> But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is
21:31:51 <HackEgo> 120) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
21:31:54 <HackEgo> 27) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
21:32:08 <ais523> hmm, I don't get 27
21:32:15 <elliott> you only got 4
21:32:18 <ais523> the fungot quote is yet again good
21:32:18 <elliott> despite requesting 5
21:32:19 <fungot> ais523: syntax-rules is fairly easy
21:32:21 <elliott> maybe it's just slow
21:32:21 <ais523> and I got 5
21:32:26 <elliott> oh, so you did
21:32:27 <oerjan> ais523: it's part of a series
21:32:28 <ais523> and I got 5615, 276, 579, 120, 27
21:32:34 <elliott> `pastequotes
21:32:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18428
21:32:40 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, but it isn't a /good/ series
21:32:54 <elliott> ais523: see 14, 15, 20-27
21:32:57 <oerjan> 27 is the norwegian version, btw
21:33:02 <elliott> it's far too classic to get deleted
21:33:20 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy Phantom_Hoover UPDATE
21:33:31 <elliott> I love tswett monqy Phantom_Hoover updates.
21:33:51 <ais523> 276 seems out of place because RocketJSquirrel /isn't/ blond, IIRC
21:33:55 <ais523> unless it's a weird definition of blond
21:34:04 <RocketJSquirrel> ...............................
21:34:07 <RocketJSquirrel> I am blond.
21:34:13 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm not particularly light blond.
21:34:27 <elliott> 276 seems out of place because RocketJSquirrel /isn't/ Gregor, IIRC
21:34:38 <elliott> The meme here is to make a false statement and append "IIRC".
21:35:00 <RocketJSquirrel> That meme seems out of place because those statements /aren't/ false, IIRC
21:35:52 <ais523> elliott: seems to also require an italicised word
21:36:25 <pikhq_> *sigh* Windows.
21:36:27 <elliott> "X seems out of place because THING /somethingn't/ THING, IIRC"
21:36:40 <elliott> That snowclone seems out of place because snowclones /don't/ contain placeholders, IIRC
21:36:47 <pikhq_> Fun fact: there is no implementation of C99 on Windows.
21:36:48 <monqy> is this a new thing
21:37:09 <pikhq_> Best you can do is C99-modulo-libc.
21:37:55 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert
21:38:06 <elliott> ais523: I suppose there's unlikely to be page-move spambots :)
21:38:19 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: GCC 3.4.6 WITH MUSL JUST SEGFAULTED
21:38:22 <RocketJSquirrel> I HATE EVERYTHING
21:38:24 <elliott> here's a reason not to enable it: it'll produce a drop-down with only one option
21:38:25 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: #musl
21:38:27 <ais523> elliott: indeed, unless they're Esolang-specific
21:38:34 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But now I'm using sabotage >_>
21:38:55 <RocketJSquirrel> And it may be that sabotage sabotage sabotage.
21:39:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I believe the prime saboteur is in #musl
21:39:37 <elliott> chris2
21:43:06 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:44:59 -!- _net_split has changed nick to PiRSquared.
21:50:51 <ais523> anyway, bleh at this binary diff thing
21:51:08 <ais523> the algorithm as written is still far too slow, also GNU diff doesn't use it despite claiming to
21:52:10 <elliott> ais523: Did you try bps?
21:52:32 <ais523> I have to write this from scratch, pretty much, NHPL isn't compatible with anything
21:52:42 <ais523> /possibly/ two-clause BSD, but I'm not even sure on that one
21:53:36 <elliott> ais523: Yes, and?
21:53:41 <elliott> I proposed you implement bps.
21:53:55 <elliott> It'll probably be a lot simpler than anything else.
21:54:48 <ais523> I've actually been considering doing something that fits with the format
21:55:16 <ais523> by checking what the fixed-length bits and variable-length bits are, and just XORing and RLEing the fixed-length bits
21:55:23 <ais523> and doing something clever with the variable-length bits
21:56:08 <elliott> (bps is a /really/ trivial file format, btw)
21:56:32 <elliott> it's basically a 4-instruction tarpit
21:58:06 <ais523> elliott: oh, my patch format is that too
21:58:12 <ais523> the problem is generating the patch effiicently in the first plcae
21:58:14 <ais523> *place
21:58:46 <ais523> my format uses two bits for command, six for run length
21:59:20 <ais523> the commands are copy, insert, delete, and bignum (for run lengths larger than 63; its runlength is multiplied by 64 and added to the runlength of the next command)
21:59:28 <ais523> and insert is followed by the individual bytes to insert
21:59:53 <ais523> I can generate that format reasonably simply, but not efficiently; O(sn) is too slow in practice
22:03:54 <elliott> ais523: meh, that's more complicated than bps :)
22:04:18 <ais523> elliott: format simplicity is completely missing the point, anyway
22:04:25 <ais523> it's efficiency in finding the diff
22:05:06 <ais523> GNU diff seems to do something crazy involving multiple bisections, and finding lines unique to one side or other on the basis that they can't match anything
22:06:08 <ais523> and it's way faster than my program, even if I convert all the bytes to hex and put a different one on each line, so it's a fair comparison
22:06:22 <pikhq_> ais523: It's quite advantageous for people implementing a patch applier.
22:06:42 <ais523> pikhq_: well, right, and I'd need that too
22:06:54 <ais523> but the patch applier is going to be O(n) with any sane patch format, unless it's heavily compressed
22:07:04 <ais523> so it's the patch determiner I'm worried about the efficiency of
22:07:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:10:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:26:47 <elliott> ais523: by the way, I edited two MediaWiki-namespace pages today
22:26:50 <elliott> i'm still scared when I do it :(
22:54:39 <itidus21> so html was pretty clever
22:55:08 <elliott> oerjan: "Although it shares a daily article with other Scandinavian ones"
22:55:10 <elliott> oerjan: that's hilarious
22:55:27 <oerjan> you think? :P
22:56:26 <elliott> oerjan: i don't like that "no bureaucracy, of course!" is being paired with suggestions of bureaucracy :(
22:56:54 <itidus21> i think html can be summarized as: <a1 b1="c1" b2="c2" bN="cN"> </a1>
22:56:56 <oerjan> wait, does that mean i should scratch my current rules list suggestion? :(
22:57:10 <elliott> oerjan: well, ask me here first :P
22:57:12 <RocketJSquirrel> There's FSF-copyrighted code in the kernel.
22:57:17 <RocketJSquirrel> To this I say, "hyuk"
22:57:22 <oerjan> :*Articles should be well written and formatted.
22:57:23 <oerjan> :*Languages should have an implementation, unless the difficulty of making one is part of its point.
22:57:26 <oerjan> :*Similarly there should be example programs.
22:57:28 <oerjan> :*Languages different from those already chosen should have preference.
22:57:31 <oerjan> :*Languages not from the themes most frequently chosen should have preference.
22:57:32 <oerjan> is what i have so far.
22:57:52 <elliott> oerjan: they're good guidelines. but i was going to implement that by using my freedom to choose from the available options
22:58:03 <oerjan> heh
22:58:08 <elliott> along those lines, i was thinking that we should remove the whole consensus-on-individual-options thing. not a joke :P
22:58:22 <oerjan> er what do you mean
22:58:37 <elliott> well the idea is that anyone could propose a language, but I'd just pick one from that list - this is basically how the english wikipedia's process works
22:58:44 <oerjan> you want to be benevolent dictator, check
22:58:50 <elliott> oerjan: no
22:58:59 <oerjan> ok.
22:59:03 <elliott> oerjan: i wouldn't propose suggestions
22:59:04 <oerjan> another i thought of
22:59:08 <elliott> you really think we'd get more than 3 suggestions per week, ever?
22:59:28 <elliott> all the not-votes would be along the lines of "yes this is great" for good languages and "no this isn't great" for bad languages
22:59:30 <oerjan> oh well right
22:59:41 <zzo38> Just go to [[Special:Random]] and then see if you like that one, and in case you don't like that one then try again
22:59:46 <elliott> i suspect most of the time everyone would be "yes, these are all good" and perhaps one of them would be obviously slightly above the cut
22:59:56 <elliott> oerjan: go on
23:00:02 <oerjan> elliott: there might be some who insist on renominating again and again
23:00:09 <itidus21> you should aim to compete with gregor's rate of hat suggestions per week
23:00:13 <oerjan> er oh right that other one
23:00:17 <elliott> ais523: guess what the norwegian wikipedia's main page is?
23:00:33 <ais523> elliott: a matrix of solidity?
23:00:39 <oerjan> it suddenly seemed like a bad idea if there really will be only 3 suggestions a week :P
23:00:43 <elliott> ais523: no, Portal:[en:main -> no]
23:00:45 <elliott> oerjan: well go on anyway
23:01:00 <ais523> elliott: ah, great :)
23:01:09 <oerjan> :*Articles may not be renominated for a set period
23:01:14 <elliott> oerjan: and yes, my main reason for wanting things to be coordinated by a set group on IRC was to prevent the more enthusiastic and less talented designers getting repeatedly sorely let down.
23:01:29 <oerjan> and then another
23:01:59 <oerjan> :*No one may nominate more than one of their own languages per turn
23:02:04 <elliott> ais523: erm, Portal:[en:Home -> no] actually
23:02:11 <elliott> but close enough
23:02:23 <itidus21> ooh i see a nice idea happening here
23:02:35 <oerjan> (my _first_ idea before seeing your response we "No one may nominate their own language, period"
23:02:38 <oerjan> )
23:02:39 <elliott> oerjan: to be honest, i would rather make it no more than one language per turn, and not your own unless there's few suggestions
23:02:49 <oerjan> hm
23:02:56 <ais523> this is beginning to sound like a nomic
23:02:57 <itidus21> no i don't
23:03:03 <elliott> in fact, just banning self-noms categorically is probably the best idea.
23:03:15 <elliott> (i suddenly had a vision of timwi participating in this process.)
23:03:28 <elliott> if your language is _really_ good, ask someone on IRC to nominate it for you
23:03:30 <oerjan> another idea is that there might be a kind of theme per turn
23:03:37 <elliott> if you can't convince a single person to, then your language sucks
23:04:02 <oerjan> and perhaps a cycle between old and new languages.
23:05:00 <elliott> oerjan: here's my current thoughts as to how it should possibly go: there's a page where everyone can add one (and only one) language (not their own). every $TIMESPAN, i pick a language from that list and remove it. every $LONGER_TIMESPAN, I blank the list and people can propose again
23:05:13 <zzo38> I think self nomination should be permitted but only one each, and only complete articles, and only the main namespace. And you are also allowed to vote for yourself too, but again, only one each. Other artcles can be nominated and voted more than one each, but there should still be a limit.
23:05:20 <elliott> and they can't nominate the same language twice in a row.
23:05:30 <elliott> (i first thought of this without the periodic blanking, but the problem is that the crappy languages would just pile up forever.)
23:05:44 <elliott> (and removing them would be rude. so just blank the whole thing every now and then.)
23:06:01 <elliott> oerjan: how does that sound?
23:06:15 <elliott> it means that people don't have to add new ones all the time for it to work, since the list lasts longer.
23:06:20 <zzo38> Perhaps instead of removing some names, you comment (or strike) them, to remember that it has been used.
23:06:32 <olsner> you could have a list of accepted non-crappy pages, feature a random one from that list each day/week, then only use a "complicated process" for changing the list
23:06:54 <zzo38> I think each day is too often but each week is good.
23:07:14 <elliott> olsner: yeah but you just know everyone would immediately propose their new esolang to be featured.
23:07:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: http://sprunge.us/eaKd <-- here's the current FSF taint state of sabotage.
23:07:31 <elliott> we're not like Wikipedia in that we can have a huge bureaucracy that upsets people, because we're tiny
23:07:52 <oerjan> we could write a language that simulates one!
23:07:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You can trash those architectures.
23:08:00 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And almost certainly the cryptos tuff.
23:08:02 <elliott> *crypto stuff
23:08:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And the math emulation.
23:08:10 <elliott> And UDF.
23:08:11 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Yeah, the only one that's vaguely concerning is the timeconv.c.
23:08:15 <elliott> Dunno about timeconv.c.
23:08:19 <zzo38> Perhaps, do not allow anyone to propse anything which is too recent.
23:08:27 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: sprunge me timeconv.c and I'll tell you how hard it would be to reimplement :P
23:08:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: (So that you don't look at it and get THE TAINT)
23:08:59 <RocketJSquirrel> # wc -l kernel/time/timeconv.c
23:08:59 <RocketJSquirrel> 127 kernel/time/timeconv.c
23:09:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Probably not so difficult.
23:09:16 <elliott> 127 lines of C? It probably implements division or something.
23:09:16 <zzo38> Why are you trying to rewrite the kernel?
23:09:17 <oerjan> otoh this guy on wikipedia presumably only selects from articles that have _already_ got the featured stamp?
23:09:39 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: http://sprunge.us/jYPe
23:09:45 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i was going to say that but didn't
23:10:04 <elliott> oerjan: people suggest articles from the featured pile, there's a rough scoring process, and he picks arbitrarily from those
23:10:25 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: I'm a bit surprised sabotage hasn't removed GNU sed...
23:10:26 <oerjan> i think people might be annoyed if their opinion doesn't count for anything, even if you make the final choice
23:10:35 <pikhq> It's a fairly simple patch to make Linux build without it.
23:10:42 <elliott> oerjan: (the scoring process e.g. favours people on their birthdays or events on their anniversaries and so on, and punishes having too many articles of the same kind (primarily for entertainment/technology related things) on in a short timespan.)
23:10:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Trivial.
23:10:59 <oerjan> ah
23:11:04 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: I think it's only included in "stage1", and to my knowledge sabotage isn't actually trying to be NoGNU/Linux.
23:11:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Has leap year/number of days in month data, and a time_t -> local year/month/day function.
23:11:25 <elliott> (That data is static.)
23:11:34 <pikhq> Still, it's only necessary because of a small bit of brain damage.
23:12:22 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Anyhow, you forgot glibc in that list.
23:12:28 <elliott> If sabotage does use glibc-gcc.
23:12:35 <pikhq> (they use a GNU-specific regexp which can be changed to POSIX-compliant trivially)
23:12:47 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: here's my current thoughts as to how it should possibly go: there's a page where everyone can add one (and only one) language (not their own). every $TIMESPAN, i pick a language from that list and remove it. every $LONGER_TIMESPAN, I blank the list and people can propose again
23:12:52 <elliott> oerjan: what do you think of this process?
23:13:01 <pikhq> elliott: It only uses it for stage1, and the first thing it does with that in stage2 is replace it.
23:13:16 <zzo38> I also suggest that only main namespace articles are allowed to be nominated (if someone finds an article they want to nominate which is not in the main namespace, they could move it or copy it or write a new article about it or post a discussion requesting the move)
23:13:18 <elliott> oerjan: it seems to be minimal-effort for everyone involved, while being driven by the editors.
23:13:32 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Anyhow, you forgot glibc in that list. <elliott> If sabotage does use glibc-gcc. // it doesn't, I misunderstood.
23:13:36 <elliott> zzo38: The idea is that it's for languages.
23:13:38 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK.
23:13:53 <pikhq> Wait, or does it use the musl-gcc wrapper to build that?
23:13:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm shocked LLVM haven't written a binutils yet.
23:14:18 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Apple doesn't need one.
23:14:29 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Hence, LLVM will never get one.
23:14:57 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Last I checked, Apple still needs to link.
23:14:58 <zzo38> But someone outside of Apple could write LLVM binutils if they want to, I suppose.
23:15:05 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: But they don't use binutils.
23:15:08 <elliott> pikhq: Apple have their own object format.
23:15:08 <pikhq> ...
23:15:19 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: What do they use?!?
23:15:24 <elliott> Mach-O.
23:15:27 <pikhq> elliott: binutils is object-format agnostic.
23:15:29 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: Their own, presumably derived from some pile of shit BSD one.
23:15:30 <oerjan> elliott: well we can try that and see if it works
23:15:31 <elliott> Since they invented it, it's their own tools.
23:15:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Do Apple need libc++?
23:15:41 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't think they invented Mach-O.
23:15:50 <elliott> Oh, Mach invented Mach-O.
23:15:53 <pikhq> (this is a major part of *why* binutils is so complicated)
23:16:09 <elliott> "Developed byCarnegie Mellon University/Apple Inc."
23:16:09 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Do Apple need libc++? // Idonno
23:16:11 <elliott> So yeah.
23:16:33 <elliott> pikhq: binutils includes non-object-format-agnostic tools :P
23:16:33 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Well, Apple's basically all that's kept Mach afloat since the beginning *shrugs*
23:16:42 <elliott> Or at least tool, singular.
23:16:49 <RocketJSquirrel> With such successful projects as MkLinux.
23:16:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhhhh, hello? HURD?!
23:16:53 <RocketJSquirrel> lol
23:17:03 <pikhq> Most of them go through libbfd.
23:17:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Also, technically NeXT, then Apple :P
23:17:10 <elliott> So, Apple and Apple.
23:17:17 <pikhq> Which handles most object formats.
23:17:21 <pikhq> Including Mach-O.
23:17:24 <elliott> (Apple when Jobs was absent is instead called unprofitable.)
23:18:39 <oerjan> elliott: although if people cannot nominate themselves, i hope sockpuppets won't become a problem.
23:18:48 <elliott> oerjan: I have CheckUser.
23:18:54 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> Which handles most object formats. <pikhq> Including Mach-O. // uhh, no? I'm pretty sure libbfd doesn't have Mach-O support.
23:18:59 <RocketJSquirrel> I think the patch for it died on the vine.
23:19:00 <elliott> oerjan: I doubt anyone is truly that sad, though.
23:19:02 <pikhq> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/bfd/mach-o.c?rev=1.102&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&cvsroot=src There's the source for it.
23:19:02 <itidus21> lol
23:19:09 <itidus21> hahahhaha
23:19:18 <elliott> oerjan: If they are, their language is probably crap, and so I'll ignore it just like any other crappy suggestions.
23:19:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, does "FSF-copyrighted" really count as GNU?
23:20:12 <pikhq> Anyways, the OS X man page suggests that they're using personally-maintained BSD ld.
23:20:24 <itidus21> oh cherish the day when anyone cares enough about esolangs.org to use a sock puppet to inflience getting a language on main page
23:20:43 <itidus21> <-- naive.
23:21:11 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I don't know what other metric to use *shrugs*
23:21:44 <pikhq> They are probably the only people still using even a fork of BSD ld. Even the BSDs are on GNU binutils...
23:21:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uhh... how about "package is a GNU project"?
23:22:53 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: My metrics involve things I can write into scripts ;)
23:23:04 <RocketJSquirrel> Such as grep '[0-9]{4} +Free Software Foundation'
23:23:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Sure, you just have to remove the things that aren't obviously GNU projects from the resulting list.
23:23:33 <elliott> Such as Linux.
23:23:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OK, "GNU projects or derivatives of GNU projects".
23:23:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But if they include code FROM GNU projects, --- yeah.
23:23:49 <elliott> Does that FSF-copyrighted code come from a GNU project?
23:23:50 <elliott> Yeah, iffy.
23:23:55 <elliott> I wouldn't be surprised if timeconv.c does.
23:24:01 <elliott> The architecture stuff, I doubt.
23:24:09 <elliott> (Who the fuck assigns copyright to FSF before submitting a patch to Linux?)
23:24:13 <RocketJSquirrel> X-D
23:24:17 <itidus21> sorry oerjan
23:24:25 <pikhq> elliott: An FSF employee working on a patch?
23:24:31 <itidus21> it is a good thought
23:24:46 <elliott> I guess assigning copyright to the FSF is like prayer.
23:25:58 <itidus21> the idea is incredibly comical. the frustrated wiki user hunched over the keyboard building up a collection of sockpuppets to secure victory for his/her article of choice
23:27:08 <oerjan> itidus21: but sockpuppets are always comical.
23:27:52 <itidus21> i think i imagined it wrong
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23:33:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw have you been here all this time and i just didn't notice.
23:34:05 <itidus21> according to googles opinions of me as a google user, the first image result i get for explor language is from esolangs.org
23:34:10 <oerjan> elliott: what?
23:34:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:35:28 -!- HashB has joined.
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23:35:44 <elliott> oerjan: i only noticed you when you edited talk:main page
23:35:56 <elliott> somehow I don't think we'll miss HashB
23:36:03 <oerjan> you don't say.
23:36:27 -!- HashB has joined.
23:36:27 -!- HashB has quit (Excess Flood).
23:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: zero, one, infinity
23:37:04 <oerjan> elliott: i've been here for 2 hours.
23:37:06 <elliott> that's two.
23:37:14 -!- HashB has joined.
23:37:14 -!- HashB has quit (Excess Flood).
23:37:16 <elliott> three.
23:37:25 <oerjan> fancy.
23:37:47 <oerjan> anyone here wants to admit to owning the bot? otherwise i'll probably ban it if it continues.
23:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: it has had a different IP each time.
23:37:58 <elliott> no way it's someone in here.
23:38:01 <oerjan> huh. ok.
23:38:03 <elliott> i've asked in #freenode.
23:38:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:38:32 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@82.132.211.*.
23:38:32 -!- HashB has joined.
23:38:33 -!- HashB has quit (Excess Flood).
23:38:37 <elliott> ~HashBot@
23:38:53 <oerjan> oh
23:38:58 <elliott> oerjan: i.e. try HashB!*@* instead
23:38:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@82.132.211.*.
23:39:04 <elliott> <elliott> Is this HashB thing joining a lot of channels, or is the channel I'm in just special? <phillw> elliott: I've just asked the same question :)
23:39:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b HashB!*@*.
23:39:42 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@82.132.*.*.
23:39:52 <elliott> ais523: how many people does 82.132.*.* affect?
23:40:19 <ais523> elliott: not sure, let me rDNS it
23:40:59 <fizzie> is CARNET, http://www.carnet.hr/
23:41:03 <fizzie> That's one half of it.
23:41:26 <elliott> well, who cares about croatia, that's what i always say
23:41:26 <ais523>, more specifically, is O2
23:41:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:41:28 <ais523> the UK ISP
23:41:32 <fizzie> is O2 Online (UK), so.
23:41:34 <elliott> <phillw> elliott: mode (+b HashBot*!*@*)
23:41:35 <elliott> <phillw> what's about IP addresses? :P
23:41:35 <elliott> <elliott> phillw: you realise that pattern doesn't match nick=HashB, right? :P
23:41:35 <elliott> <phillw> not seen it with that nick yet.
23:41:35 <elliott> <elliott> huh.
23:42:01 <elliott> ais523: hmm.
23:42:05 <elliott> so did oerjan just ban a large number of O2 users?
23:42:09 <ais523> not sure if blocking O2 is reasonable, even if most british esolangers use Virgin Media
23:42:10 <elliott> that seems unwise.
23:42:10 <ais523> elliott: I think so!
23:42:13 <fizzie> Who cares about UK, that's what I always say.
23:42:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:42:23 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@82.132.*.*.
23:42:26 <oerjan> SHEESH
23:42:28 <elliott> ais523: FSVO "most" equal to 2? :)
23:42:36 <ais523> and other people too, because it was wider than just the O2 range
23:42:45 <itidus21> i hope it wasn't my comment about sockpuppets
23:42:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:42:48 <elliott> ais523: yes, but nobody cares about croatia.
23:42:53 <elliott> that's what i always asy.
23:42:54 <elliott> *say
23:44:16 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:44:23 <fizzie> elliott: Some dude called "ehirdiphone" has been here from and and other such numbers, but that's probably not a great loss?
23:44:41 <oerjan> fancy.
23:45:02 <elliott> fizzie: I suspect you'll find an awful lot of O2 IPs from 2010.
23:45:14 <elliott> My iPhone was with O2, so...
23:45:16 <fizzie> ~/logs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep -i 82.132 * | wc -l
23:45:17 <fizzie> 4353
23:45:37 <elliott> Well, you know. Half of them will be quits.
23:45:55 <fizzie> Yeah, and the other half is just stuff like "Shrooms man".
23:46:41 <fizzie> (In particular, I'm referring to "2010-04-07 21:26:55 <ehirdiphone> Shrooms man".)
23:46:56 <elliott> Those lines won't have the IPs!
23:47:00 <elliott> But yes, Shrooms man.
23:47:07 <elliott> We can all agree that Shrooms man.
23:47:10 <elliott> ais523: Shrooms man?
23:47:21 <ais523> no!
23:47:33 <oerjan> Shroomsman, the very easily distracted superhero.
23:48:10 <itidus21> i downloaded some underground comics once
23:48:41 <itidus21> i wouldn't be surprised if he was in those
23:50:51 -!- Maharba has joined.
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23:51:49 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:53:06 <elliott> hi Maharba
23:53:12 <Maharba> Hi.
23:53:21 <Maharba> You're ehird, right?
23:53:51 <oerjan> No, I'm ehird
23:53:56 -!- oerjan has changed nick to spartacus.
23:53:56 <elliott> we're all ehird
23:53:59 <elliott> (yes :))
23:54:14 -!- spartacus has changed nick to oerjan.
23:54:48 <Maharba> I was thinking for the "featured esolang", have a template included on the main page, and then the template talk page could be for suggesting featured esolangs.
23:55:38 <elliott> I was planning on using a separate template for each blurb so that there could be an archive page
23:55:56 <elliott> but yes, the talk page of wherever the archive is would be the best place for discussions to go
23:56:13 <elliott> i've been discussing what the simplest viable process would be with oerjan just now actually
23:56:29 <Maharba> A new page each time we change the featured article? Sounds messy.
23:57:08 <elliott> actually, I suppose I could just copy the blurb to the archive page when it's done.
23:57:18 <elliott> it's unlikely to change much while it's up
23:58:07 <elliott> so yeah, you're right, a single template would do
23:59:59 <elliott> fungot: say hi to Maharba
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