←2012-03-19 2012-03-20 2012-03-21→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:45:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: This is SURPRISINGLY the WEIRDEST CHEESE you will ANNOTATE all RAMADAN: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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02:08:17 <Sgeo> tswett, there was a muffin if you didn't see it
02:10:59 <shachaf> I didn't see any muffings!
02:11:04 <shachaf> s/g//
02:11:13 <shachaf> s/g//g
02:12:24 <Sgeo> The muffin exists if and only if tswett didn't see it
02:34:43 * tswett checks.
02:34:50 <tswett> Why yes, there is a muffin.
02:34:53 <tswett> And, sure enough, I didn't see it before.
02:46:11 <tswett> Oh look, a second muffin.
02:48:55 <Sgeo> tswett, why are you not in the other channel?
02:49:21 <tswett> I decided to leave after... Pbhead, I think it was, threw a fit.
02:49:55 <Sgeo> o.O
02:49:57 <tswett> He said stuff like, "Well, this is my channel, and I really can't handle the stuff that goes on in it sometimes."
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03:15:41 <tswett> But yeah. I'd be happy to see you on Rizon again, if that's your thing at all.
03:20:08 <Sgeo> I barely remember that network
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03:31:49 <zzo38> I think it should be permitted to suggest your own languages as long as it is not done twice in a row. I also think it should be forbidden to suggest anything if there is no article in the main namespace for it.
03:32:07 <zzo38> (But even if these changes are implemented, I still have no suggestions corrently.)
03:33:20 <zzo38> Actually I do have one more suggestion: That when the list is blanked or something is used, it is commented out with a note saying whether it is used or unused. After it is blanked a second time, all the old comments would be removed.
03:33:48 <zzo38> (Actually, perhaps ones which become used should be strike out instead of commented out)
03:43:57 <zzo38> Once in school there was an assignment to make a PCB from a certain schematic diagram, which was given to all of the students. So I did it, and it didn't work. I eventually found out, it was because the schematic diagram was wrong.
04:21:45 <Sgeo> elliott, when you logread this, the instructions on the Worms2d wiki for Worms under WINE seem to be somewhat up-to-date.
04:21:51 <Sgeo> http://worms2d.info/Installing_WA_on_Linux
04:24:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I should upgrade WINE
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04:26:06 <zzo38> The spring equinox will occur in less than one hour from now.
04:26:36 <quintopia> zzo38: the pollen count says spring sprang several days ago
04:26:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Perhaps; but the equinox is something different.
04:28:00 <quintopia> so which is more useful? "spring begins in the northern hemisphere at this point in earth's orbit" or "spring begins when the plants start having sex and everyone starts sneezing"
04:29:02 <zzo38> quintopia: It probably depends what you are doing, what makes what to be more useful! Chinese seasons says the equinox is in the middle of spring instead of start of spring.
04:30:35 <Sgeo> The Chinese way makes more sense
04:30:40 <zzo38> The equinox is the intersection of ecliptic with equator
04:30:46 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I agree with that.
04:33:31 <Sgeo> elliott, when you see this: With newest WINE, and following instructions on that page, works for me (although before I upgraded WINE I did the registry thing and didn't undo it)
04:35:23 <zzo38> So, the Chinese start of spring is at 315 degrees (15 Aquarius), while the spring equinox is at 0 degrees (0 Aries) by the definition of the 0 longitude. But this is only the north hemisphere; for south hemisphere, the Chinese start of spring is 135 degrees (15 Leo), instead. But nevertheless, the equinox occurs soon
04:36:05 <zzo38> (And then the spring equinox for south hemisphere would be 180 degrees (0 Libra), obviously.)
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04:38:12 <quintopia> zzo38: what do you think the average Earth denizen cares about with respect to the question "is it spring yet?"
04:38:16 <elliott> 16:36:42: <ion> Hi, I'm Brendan Eich, welcome to my homepage. I'm the inventor of JavaScript. http://web.archive.org/web/19990128210124/http://people.netscape.com/brendan/
04:38:23 <elliott> For the unaware, Eich did not create that.
04:38:35 <quintopia> elliott: duh. it's not like we are blind to satire
04:39:08 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know, but they did mention it on the news today.
04:39:44 <elliott> quintopia: "i" "wow" is not the reaction of someone recognising it as a joke.
04:41:46 <quintopia> elliott: well, some are better at analysis than others i suppose
04:43:48 <zzo38> If I worked for a newspaper I would insist the horoscope section of the newspaper to include the exact dates and times as well as a disclaimer.
04:45:09 <quintopia> zzo38: what job would you do if you worked for a newspaper?
04:46:01 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know because I don't work for a newspaper.
04:46:11 <zzo38> (And I also don't intend to work for a newspaper)
04:47:38 <elliott> coppro: who else supported?
04:48:57 <Sgeo> elliott, read logs?
04:49:07 <Sgeo> Particularly, logs shortly before you entered
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04:54:21 <elliott> 04:33:31: <Sgeo> elliott, when you see this: With newest WINE, and following instructions on that page, works for me (although before I upgraded WINE I did the registry thing and didn't undo it)
04:54:26 <elliott> That guide is really out of date, I believe.
04:55:29 <Sgeo> Works for me, so
04:57:36 <elliott> Oh, it was updated.
04:58:21 <elliott> It just tells me to do what I did.
04:58:29 <elliott> What wine version?
04:58:43 <Sgeo> 1.4 is what I'm using now
04:59:08 <Sgeo> Although I had 1.3.28 before and did the regedit instructions before trying to upgrade WINE, so
05:00:12 <elliott> 1.5 here.
05:01:36 <elliott> Sgeo: How big is the ISO?
05:02:16 <Sgeo> ~575.4MB
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05:02:56 <elliott> Apparently someone has Google +1'd http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system.
05:03:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Okay, link me I s'pose.
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05:31:20 <zzo38> I recorded my latest D&D game session. In addition, I have made some corrections and improvements to the "dungeonsrecording.tex" file too.
05:33:03 <kmc> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
05:33:57 <elliott> i flinched
05:34:13 <zzo38> kmc: Is there contents of the block or only heading?
05:34:13 <elliott> use your powers for good not evil kmc
05:40:09 <kmc> just a heading
05:41:56 <elliott> we're all inside the geek code now
05:42:03 <elliott> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
05:51:26 <zzo38> Finally I have done a few more things on TeXnicard today.
06:00:27 <zzo38> If you have anything to send to TeXnicard extra repository, you tell me I will add you.
06:12:57 <fizzie> "Unable to find a geek code in the text you gave me" oh no it is not a valid code :(
06:17:18 <elliott> fizzie: :'(
06:17:50 <zzo38> Then make up a new geek code where it is a valid code.
06:20:28 <fizzie> Make a geek code? Now? In 2012? What a weird idea.
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06:21:57 <zzo38> Do you agree with me that they ought to use the exact date and times and disclaimers?
06:21:57 <Jafet> Make it webscale.
06:22:03 <elliott> By the way, I woke up at 3:45. :(
06:23:55 <elliott> Perhaps shachaf cursed me.
06:24:08 <shachaf> hielliott
06:24:19 <shachaf> Perhaps you cursed yourself!
06:24:25 <shachaf> By being useless.
06:25:04 <shachaf> elliott: I ended up sleep ~10:00-13:00.
06:25:10 <shachaf> Or maybe it was ~08:00-
06:25:51 <elliott> I'm tired.
06:27:56 <elliott> shachaf: Ban Jafet and op fizzie and become a turtle.
06:28:27 <shachaf> fizzie: You are now an op. Ban Jafet and turn me into a turtle.
06:28:42 <elliott> WRONG ORDER
06:29:21 <shachaf> elliott: YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY AN ORDERING
06:29:44 <shachaf> Other than the one you specified, I guess.
06:29:49 <shachaf> But that doesn't count.
06:30:48 <fizzie> Jafet: Be banned. shachaf: Turtlify. (Bam, delegated.)
06:31:11 <elliott> fizzie: Op me so I can ban Jafet and turn shachaf into a turtle and op you.
06:31:30 <shachaf> elliott: WRONG ORDER
06:31:36 <elliott> I changed the order!
06:31:49 <elliott> Don't worry, I only ever ban Jafet for 3 years at the longest.
06:50:01 <zzo38> When was Pluto declared to be not a true planet? Even before 1989 someone believed that it would happen one day.
06:50:40 <shachaf> Pluto didn't even exist before 1930.
06:51:13 <elliott> 2006
06:52:42 <pikhq_> When they first defined "planet" in a vaguely formal sense.
06:53:04 <pikhq_> (though, mind you, even now it's a purely arbitrary term for a subset of the orbiting bodies of a star)
06:54:48 <shachaf> elliott: When are you going to fix client your to autojoin channels?
06:56:35 <elliott> I don't feel like joining #haskell.
06:58:11 <Sgeo> o.O the BZFlag List Server is written in PHP
07:00:19 <Jafet> Is PHP Turing-complete?
07:03:07 <fizzie> PHP: "Pretty Hopeless Privacy"? (By way of analogy with PGP.)
07:03:43 <pikhq_> No, because PHP is defined purely by the php program, which is written in C, which is not TC.
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07:09:50 <fizzie> Oh, you don't accept the usual "there is no standard-imposed upper limit for the size of a file" argument?
07:10:44 <elliott> "Usual".
07:10:50 <elliott> Has that argument ever been made outside of this channel?
07:11:02 <fizzie> Maybe?
07:11:23 <fizzie> I think the topic was discussed on some other channel I'm in.
07:11:50 <pikhq_> fizzie: off_t screws that up.
07:11:52 <pikhq_> :)
07:12:01 <shachaf> fizzie: But there isn't!
07:12:09 <shachaf> The implementation can return any error from ftell()
07:12:30 <shachaf> Some implementations return EOVERFLOW when the position doesn't fit in 64 bits.
07:13:03 <shachaf> However, I doubt php is written in a way that uses files in order to achieve Turing-completeness.
07:13:09 <pikhq_> shachaf: No, but EOVERFLOW can be returned.
07:13:17 <pikhq_> Hmm.
07:13:30 <pikhq_> Okay, so it is possible for the Deathstation 9000 to be Turing complete.
07:13:32 <elliott> shachaf: Are you sure?
07:13:37 <elliott> I am pretty sure PHP exposes a file API.
07:13:38 <shachaf> elliott: Sure about what?
07:13:45 <pikhq_> elliott: PHP probably fucks it up.
07:13:45 <shachaf> Oh.
07:13:52 <fizzie> It has a fseek that probably maps very directly to libc fseek.
07:14:04 <pikhq_> fizzie: It's PHP.
07:14:12 <pikhq_> It probably maps to a Javascript VM.
07:14:23 <fizzie> Also "off_t" is not a standard C term. (ftell returns a long int, and fgetpos a fpos_t.)
07:14:54 <pikhq_> It is, however, a POSIX term.
07:15:17 <elliott> I have a suspicion POSIX thwarts the file method in some manner.
07:15:29 <zzo38> Maybe C is not Turing-complete but POSIX is.
07:15:31 <elliott> It has a rather more gigantic set of requirements, after all.
07:15:34 <shachaf> "On some non-UNIX systems an fpos_t object may be a complex object"
07:15:40 <shachaf> Such as a reference to a file!
07:16:02 <pikhq_> elliott: Not really; it doesn't detail too many file system requirements...
07:16:45 <shachaf> Oh, POSIX specifies EOVERFLOW.
07:16:51 <shachaf> Anyway, this is about C, not POSIX.
07:17:11 <pikhq_> Non-POSIX C is either a tarpit or Windows. :)
07:19:54 <shachaf> "either"
07:20:34 <pikhq_> Anyways. Yeah, ftell can EOVERFLOW, implying that there is no defined bound for file sizes.
07:21:14 <pikhq_> So, you can trivially map a tape onto a file and it'll just work on an implementation without bound files.
07:21:46 <pikhq_> Well, "trivially". Mapping > to fseek is probably pretty annoying. :)
07:22:20 <pikhq_> Not to mention any cell modification doing ungetc.
07:22:40 <shachaf> Why is that annoying?
07:22:48 <shachaf> And why do you need ungetc?
07:23:03 <pikhq_> Either that or another fseek..
07:23:17 <pikhq_> Reading from the FILE* moves where you're reading from.
07:23:41 <shachaf> Oh, well, sure. Just do another seek.
07:24:17 <shachaf> What's the behavior of read(1); ungetc(); seek(+1); etc., anyway?
07:24:34 <fizzie> Seek discards all ungetc'd characters from the stream.
07:24:44 <pikhq_> read(1)? Undefined. fread(1)? Beats me, actually.
07:24:55 <pikhq_> fizzie: Is that spec, or common implementations?
07:24:59 <fizzie> Spec.
07:25:02 <shachaf> I meant fread
07:25:04 <fizzie> "A
07:25:04 <fizzie> successful intervening call (with the stream pointed to by stream) to a file positioning function (fseek, fsetpos, or rewind) discards any pushed-back characters for the
07:25:07 <fizzie> stream. The external storage corresponding to the stream is unchanged.
07:25:24 <fizzie> A fread(1) would rather obviously return the pushed-back character.
07:25:26 <pikhq_> Okay. So, you don't want to ungetc.
07:25:29 <shachaf> So, yes. Just seek.
07:26:31 <elliott> If you have a read-write stream, successive reads are guaranteed to include previous writes, right?
07:26:56 <elliott> Stream.
07:26:57 <elliott> I mean file.
07:26:59 <elliott> Handle.
07:27:14 <shachaf> You mean write("x"); fseek(-1); fread(1)?
07:27:34 <fizzie> No, *you* mean fwrite.
07:27:41 <shachaf> Curses.
07:27:45 <elliott> Yes, apart from the fwrite thing.
07:27:50 <shachaf> I remembered to put the 'f' in front of the other two!
07:27:59 <shachaf> elliott: Presumably other processes can have the file open?
07:28:12 <elliott> Actually, I don't really know how read-write file handles work at all.
07:28:22 <elliott> But my point is that it sounds like it should be fairly easy to implement a BF tape with this.
07:28:29 <shachaf> It does.
07:29:42 <fizzie> POSIX has a very funnily stated bit related to writes and reads in different processes.
07:29:50 <fizzie> "Writes can be serialized with respect to other reads and writes. If a read() of file data can be proven (by any means) to occur after a write() of the data, it must reflect that write(), even if the calls are made by different processes."
07:30:07 <fizzie> I think I quoted this earlier, since the "proven (by any means)" sounds funny.
07:30:30 <fizzie> Proven beyond reasonable doubt by a polygraph test.
07:30:42 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder if you can encode $unsolved_problem with a special arrangement of processes.
07:31:02 <pikhq_> pthread says what? ;)
07:31:24 <pikhq_> elliott: :D
07:31:39 <shachaf> elliot :: D
07:32:00 <monqy> :eliott D:
07:32:21 <fizzie> elliott "el D" elliott.
07:34:20 <shachaf> elliot "eliot" eliott
07:56:04 <elliott> Wait, when did I say that previous line?
07:56:10 <elliott> I honestly don't remember typing it.
07:58:39 <shachaf> "Wait, when did I say that previous line? I honestly don't remember typing it." -- elliot "eliot" eliott
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08:05:59 <elliott> hi ais523
08:06:11 <ais523> hi elliott
08:06:27 <shachaf> `welcome ais523
08:06:36 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:08:30 <elliott> `unwelcome ais523
08:08:34 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
08:09:06 <shachaf> "your not welcome in here, ais523" -- elliott "hi" elliott
08:09:46 <shachaf> ais523: Ban me from this channel!
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08:27:46 <elliott> let's buildings
08:32:14 <elliott> try buildings origami free trial
08:53:40 -!- simpleirc has joined.
08:53:48 <elliott> `welcome SimonRC
08:53:49 <elliott> argh
08:53:51 <elliott> `welcome simpleirc
08:53:52 <HackEgo> SimonRC: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:53:55 <HackEgo> simpleirc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:55:31 <elliott> shachaf: ais523: fizzie: pikhq_: ping
08:55:34 <elliott> does esolangs.org load for you?
08:56:12 -!- simpleirc has left.
08:56:21 <ais523> checking
08:56:25 <ais523> no
08:56:28 <elliott> i can ssh in but not http
08:56:30 <elliott> wtf
08:56:35 <elliott> ok wait
08:56:36 <elliott> http://li278-81.members.linode.com/ works
08:56:49 <ais523> ah, it has loaded
08:56:51 <ais523> but pretty slowly
08:56:57 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ ping solidity
08:56:57 <elliott> PING solidity ( 56(84) bytes of data.
08:56:58 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ ping esolangs.org
08:56:58 <elliott> ping: unknown host esolangs.org
08:57:00 <elliott> what the fuck?
08:57:03 <ais523> and it's working now
08:57:08 <elliott> not here
08:57:25 <ais523> looks like it was some sort of DNS glitch
08:57:27 * elliott digs it to see where it's resolving
08:57:33 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ dig @ns1.afraid.org esolangs.org
08:57:33 <elliott> ;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode.
08:57:33 <elliott> ;; Connection to 2607:f0d0:1102:d5::2#53(2607:f0d0:1102:d5::2) for esolangs.org failed: network unreachable.
08:57:36 <elliott> I guess an afraid.org outage
08:57:44 <ais523> try a couple of other servers
08:57:49 <ais523> DNS servers, that is
08:57:54 <ais523> dig @, dig @
08:58:09 <shachaf> esolangs.org is down
08:58:20 <shachaf> Due to incompetent management.
08:58:43 <ais523> (Google), gave me the right answer straight away, (Level3) took a while then returned no IP
08:58:57 <shachaf> Wait, esolangs.org is back up.
08:59:08 <shachaf> Once in a while even incompetent management gets it right.
08:59:18 <ais523> <Level3> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 7188
08:59:47 <shachaf> Alternative hostname: solidity.slbkbs.org
08:59:54 <elliott> ah, back up here
09:00:10 <elliott> shachaf: That won't send the right Host header.
09:00:19 <shachaf> elliott: It will if you tell it to!
09:00:39 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if it sent the same Host header, it would hardly be an alternative Host name, would it?!
09:01:03 <elliott> See, if I owned esolangs.org...
09:01:09 <elliott> ...then it wouldn't have just stopped loading again.
09:01:19 <shachaf> LFM
09:01:33 <shachaf> "LFM" doesn't stand for "Loads For Me", by the way.
09:01:38 <shachaf> Even though it does.
09:01:44 <elliott> Now it loads.
09:02:47 <monqy> NIL (now it loads)
09:03:42 <shachaf> NIL (end of the list)
09:06:17 * elliott wonders what "slbkbs" means.
09:06:59 <shachaf> It stands for slbkbs "slbkbs" slbkbs
09:07:10 <olsner> presumably, C++ has the same limitations as C when it comes to being TC... a bit funny since templates are obviously turing-complete
09:08:36 <ais523> C++ has rather stricter rules on pointers than C does
09:08:45 <ais523> I'm not offhand sure whether it lets you cast anything into a void* or not
09:09:12 <elliott> esolangs.org is the worst thing about esolangs.org
09:09:27 <shachaf> The management is the worst thing about esolangs.org
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09:12:28 <fizzie> C doesn't let you cast "anything" either, so there.
09:13:15 <shachaf> cpp needs to support <> for macro expansion.
09:13:24 <shachaf> #define foo<arg> bar
09:13:31 <fizzie> Admittedly C++ adds new classes of non-void*-able things.
09:13:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Why?
09:13:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Because it would make it worse.
09:14:08 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you could call those "pretendplates".
09:14:09 <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance
09:14:32 <elliott> olsner: CPP macros and templates are already horrible by themselves. You need a new word for the synthesis of the two.
09:14:49 <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though
09:15:03 <fizzie> elliott: The new word would be "awesome". (Two wrongs make a right.)
09:15:15 <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:15:45 <zzo38> I don't like the <> syntax for C++ templates
09:15:54 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:15:57 <HackEgo> 825) <olsner> combining macros and templates can get horrible... macro(foo<bar,baz>) is two macro arguments, for instance <olsner> variadic macros can work part-way around that though <olsner> the kind of workaround where you end up inside the wall instead of on the other side of the problem
09:16:03 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, don't be dissin' templates!
09:16:21 <elliott> shachaf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates
09:16:27 <elliott> I have earned the right to diss templates for my work.
09:16:58 <olsner> maybe you could do... #define foo(...) foo<__VA_ARGS__> for every template
09:17:02 <zzo38> I do not consider CPP macros to be horrible; I don't know much about C++ templates but I don't think those are very horrible either but I do think that the < > as delimiters for C++ templates is not the good idea
09:17:33 <shachaf> elliott: If you do that, you have to treat Haskell's type sysem the same way.
09:17:41 <elliott> olsner: or just #define template(name, ...) name(__VA_ARGS__)
09:17:42 <shachaf> zzo38: What is the good idea?
09:17:51 <elliott> shachaf: No, the right, not the obligation.
09:17:53 <elliott> olsner: er
09:18:00 <elliott> olsner: or just #define template(name, ...) name##<__VA_ARGS__>
09:18:01 <elliott> or something
09:18:11 <olsner> elliott: yeah, something
09:18:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I think the good idea would be to use () delimiters like the other delimiters in C do (since < > are used for operators instead)
09:18:43 <olsner> probably you'd want to do both, so that you have a shorter shorthand for most templates
09:21:37 <fizzie> What I read as "A Nude Entrepreneurship Course" in the INBOX turned out to be the far less interesting "A Nudge to Entrepreneurship -course".
09:21:49 <olsner> zzo38: calling a function template and constructing a template class needs both a template parameter list and a parameter list ... templatefunc<T>(1,2,3) and templatestruct<T>(1,2,3)
09:23:34 <zzo38> olsner: I think both parameter lists should be using () instead of having <> and ()
09:25:55 <zzo38> If you have a ephemeris function that you input the date/time and the object number, and the output is three set of XYZ coordinates, for the center, north pole, and zero longitude reference. Does this seem sufficient to do all the other calculation from that?
09:28:02 <elliott> ais523: holy crap, the categories list at the bottom of MediaWiki pages is in source order
09:28:09 <elliott> ais523: I assumed it'd sort them...
09:28:24 <ais523> it's more flexible this way, you can order them by hand
09:28:37 <ais523> presumably there's an AWB plugin for sorting them, and a huge row about whether people should use it or not
09:28:41 <elliott> ais523: how is that flexibility useful?
09:28:49 -!- Tiktalik has changed nick to Sleeptalik.
09:28:50 <ais523> you are missing the point of MediaWiki!
09:29:02 <elliott> heh
09:29:16 <ais523> I think it's used to put [[Category:Living people]] first, though
09:29:47 <elliott> ais523: IMO, that should be done by allowing you to establish relations between _categories_
09:29:55 <elliott> but i guess this is simpler, code-wise, for that use-case
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09:30:12 <elliott> I'll just write a bot to reorder categories how I like them at the same time I write a bot to check for dead links
09:30:26 <ais523> did you know that not only can you, in an article, choose where the category goes in the list of categories on the article, but also where the article goes in the list of articles on the category?
09:30:42 <elliott> yes, [[Category:foo | bar]]
09:30:48 <elliott> but that makes sense, more or less
09:31:00 <elliott> albeit, I might argue that only DEFAULTSORT should exist, not the per-category section
09:31:05 <elliott> but it's useful for "X in Y" in [[Category:X]]
09:32:04 <zzo38> I think they also have hidden categories, at least in Wikipedia, which are not shown by default but there is a user preference to make it to display them, but in a separate row
09:32:06 <shachaf> instance Category foo
09:32:59 <ais523> zzo38: indeed
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09:33:44 <elliott> ais523: speaking of bots, how hellish is pywikipediabot?
09:33:55 <elliott> I don't really feel like writing my own library
09:34:22 <ais523> not as bad as rolling your own library, although last I looked it used scraping rather than the API
09:34:26 <ais523> perhaps it's been fixed to use the API since
09:35:03 <elliott> wow, I'm not using it if it uses scraping
09:36:51 <elliott> ok i might if i'm really lazy
09:37:41 <elliott> ais523: err, apparently [[Category:Living people]] exists only for BLP monitoring
09:37:52 <elliott> and therefore has no subcategories, making it completely useless for readers
09:37:54 <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's its purpose
09:37:58 <elliott> that seems like a terrible category to list first...
09:38:06 <ais523> but it's so important when editing something
09:38:10 <ais523> by policy
09:38:13 <elliott> *sigh, wikipedia*
09:38:30 <ais523> Wikipedia isn't really aimed at readers, because they don't make the decisions…
09:39:04 <elliott> Wikipedia isn't really aimed at the editors either, just the very small subset of editors who would like to control who Wikipedia is aimed at
09:40:20 <ais523> yes!
10:02:27 <zzo38> JPL HORIZONS seems broken; it doesn't do anything after a command is entered.
10:07:23 <kmc> i think you don't always need the type parameter on a template function call
10:07:30 <kmc> if the type can be inferred from argument types
10:07:36 <kmc> but the inference is rather weak...
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10:44:37 <ais523_> !glogbot_ignore so am I online now?
10:44:39 <EgoBot> so am I online now?
10:44:43 <ais523_> yay
10:44:52 <ais523_> (!glogbot_ignore: good ping, or the best ping?)
10:46:52 <elliott> ais523_: no
10:46:55 <elliott> you're not online
10:47:28 <elliott> ais523_: Now, er, how much do you know about table styling?
10:48:30 <ais523_> not a huge amount
10:49:28 <elliott> :(
10:51:21 <elliott> 14:17:54: <RocketJSquirrel> The text "More featured languages..." doesn't exactly scream "if you click through here a couple of times, you can suggest a language"
10:51:26 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: BTW, I don't consider this a problem.
10:51:38 <elliott> The kind of person who wants to go from the main page directly to suggesting a language probably shouldn't.
10:55:06 <elliott> ais523_: by the way, I thought of an obvious criterion for the spam user deletion script I missed
10:55:17 <ais523_> go on
10:55:41 <elliott> ais523_: "has an entry in the block log matching %spam%" (note: this is different from "is currently blocked with that entry")
10:55:47 <elliott> because we wiped the blocks
10:55:57 <ais523_> ah, of course
10:56:08 <ais523_> what about "has a 24-year block"?
10:56:21 <ais523_> for when the reason was typoed or not given?
10:56:38 <ais523_> although you'll need to check fake-lament on that
10:57:10 * ais523_ thinks it's vaguely weird to be on a wiki that's had exactly one vandal
10:57:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&limit=500&type=block&month=&year=
10:57:32 <elliott> it seems practically all spam-user entries have "spam" in them
10:57:38 <elliott> even the ones that are sentences talking about other spambots
10:58:00 <elliott> some of them have "vandal" even though we'd call them spammers nowadays
10:58:06 <ais523_> no "spma" or "spa," or whatever?
10:58:09 <elliott> (because they didn't actually link anywhere or promote anything)
10:58:24 <elliott> ais523_: oh, probably (although not "spma", at least), but we can delete users manually after-the-fact
10:58:36 <elliott> I just want to pick off a few thousand automatically to make it less of a drudge
11:00:09 <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years ‎ (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block)
11:00:22 <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello"
11:00:32 <elliott> a martyr for the ages
11:00:39 <elliott> edit summary "just testing"
11:00:52 <elliott> since when do spambots figure out the project namespace and create a sandbox in it?
11:01:16 <elliott> (that's the first block ever)
11:02:54 <elliott> ais523_: also, I'm wondering if lament-impersonator isn't actually lament themselves
11:03:08 <elliott> (show/hide) 00:27, 20 August 2007 (diff | hist) Esolang:Sandbox ‎ (Replacing page with 'cocks')
11:03:09 <elliott> they remind me of lament of recent years.
11:03:37 <elliott> oh, lament reverted them, so I guess not
11:04:23 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ this person, presumably
11:04:30 <elliott> ais523_: it seems it happened when IRP was on reddit
11:04:42 <elliott> so the one vandal we got was when we were in the spotlight; makes sense
11:14:41 <elliott> ais523_: wow, the query is really good now
11:14:50 <elliott> 3058 matches, without the risky duplicate-email query
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11:15:41 <elliott> ais523_: (actually, I'm more surprised there were 3043 matches before adding the log entry criterion)
11:15:47 <elliott> I don't remember it being that effective
11:16:14 <elliott> that would leave 1449 users to be manually checked
11:16:16 <coppro> elliott: apparently F*****
11:16:18 <elliott> I get the feeling ais523_ isn't here
11:16:24 <elliott> coppro: what
11:17:31 <coppro> elliott: supported
11:18:48 <elliott> coppro: ???
11:20:16 <elliott> coppro: what are you on about
11:20:22 <coppro> elliott: you asked who else supported
11:20:41 <elliott> oh
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11:21:05 <elliott> coppro: who the heck is Fasterisks
11:21:08 <elliott> do you mean FKA?
11:22:08 <elliott> ais523_: fun fact: nobody has ever been unblocked on esolang
11:23:33 <coppro> yes
11:26:35 <elliott> note to self: mysql> SELECT user_name, user_email, user_real_name FROM user u WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT 1 FROM spammers s WHERE s.user_id = u.user_id);
11:29:23 <elliott> [[User;The Catholicizer]] has one edit and it's incorrect :'(
11:39:04 <elliott> oh, [[DPEMOFKOXM]] that i deleted was actually a bot
11:40:41 <elliott> ais523: ais523_: another criterion I just thought of: only contribution is to own user or user talk page, which has been deleted
11:40:53 <elliott> ais523: ais523_: (keymaker has deleted lots, but never filled out a reason)
11:41:55 <elliott> I'm /really/ tempted to relax the "no undeleted contributions and has contributions deleted as %spam%" thing to "no undeleted contributions and has deleted contributions"
11:42:04 <elliott> Keymaker has deleted a /lot/ of such pages
11:50:54 <elliott> actually, no, I remember there being a false positive for that
11:51:02 <elliott> oh, no
11:51:06 <elliott> they were blanking the page
11:51:11 <elliott> /creating/ it should be pretty safe
11:51:54 <elliott> I suppose it's plausible that somebody might have put up a page that's a copyvio and it was deleted and they never did anything lese
11:51:55 <elliott> *else
12:02:33 <ais523_> I've been with students all this time
12:03:22 <elliott> I said lots and lots of interesting things! Well, lots of things, anyway.
12:03:34 <elliott> But some of them were amusing!
12:03:38 <elliott> Others were informative!
12:04:01 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ping
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12:43:51 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover
12:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> hello
12:43:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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12:59:20 <ais523_> so, esolang idea inspired by one of my students' code: a language that ignores expressions
12:59:45 <ais523_> as in, it's vaguely C-like, but if(x>3) and if(y>4) mean the same thing
12:59:58 <ais523_> you can write conditionals, but not choose what they're conditionalling on
13:01:43 <elliott> "A colleague of mine recently needed to represent DAGs (directed acyclic graphs) in Coq, and asked around for ideas. Since Coq is not a nice language to program in, I decided to use Haskell instead."
13:01:45 <elliott> Buuuuuuuuuurn
13:02:07 <elliott> ais523_: did you see what I said about the first user ever blocked on esolang, btw?
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years ‎ (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block)
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello"
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> a martyr for the ages
13:02:59 <elliott> <elliott> edit summary "just testing"
13:03:00 <elliott> <elliott> since when do spambots figure out the project namespace and create a sandbox in it?
13:03:02 <elliott> <elliott> (that's the first block ever)
13:04:27 <ais523_> I did
13:04:48 <ais523_> and you can just edit [[Project:Sandbox]] on any MediaWiki wiki, it'll be translated to the appropriate alternative
13:05:05 <elliott> ais523_: I rather doubt spambots are doing that, either
13:05:17 <ais523_> anyway, Coq requires your programs to be proved correct, much like Agda
13:05:27 <ais523_> so it's rather harder to program in than Haskell
13:05:35 <elliott> ais523_: your first statement is completely false (and also nonsensical)
13:05:45 <ais523_> well, yes
13:05:50 <ais523_> but /if/ it made sense, it would be true
13:06:06 <elliott> ais523_: I doubt it
13:06:08 <elliott> Coq requires nothing
13:06:15 <elliott> you can program without using Prop at all
13:06:16 <ais523_> (note: I've been awake for quite a while, you can expect me to make no sense)
13:07:16 <elliott> are you saying you make more sense when you're not tired?
13:07:30 <ais523_> yes
13:07:33 <ais523_> admittedly, not by much
13:07:48 <ais523_> also, I'm usually tired
13:07:58 <fizzie> What was that famous three-letter /^c/-word AI project? Cyc?
13:08:24 <elliott> Cyc, yes.
13:08:31 <elliott> It's a rather silly thing.
13:08:34 -!- MatressDude has changed nick to MDude.
13:08:45 <fizzie> It's COMMON SENSE in the COMPUTER, is what it is.
13:08:52 <fizzie> Billions and billions of rules.
13:08:54 <fizzie> Or so I hear.
13:09:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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13:10:56 <fizzie> (#$genls #$Tree-ThePlant #$Plant) -- did you know that all tree-the-plants are plants?
13:12:14 <ais523_> bleh, that's the wireless malfunctioning again
13:12:18 <ais523_> alternatively, someone stealing my laptop
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13:13:59 <elliott> ais523_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
13:14:17 <elliott> (no, I didn't do that for any reason, I was just bored)
13:14:45 <elliott> <fizzie> Billions and billions of rules.
13:14:53 <elliott> hi oerjan
13:15:03 <fizzie> That's not like speech recognition at all. :'(
13:16:19 <fizzie> Or I guess with a suitably warped view it is. But no-one's spending a hundred man-years to write up them rules.
13:16:26 <oerjan> hi elliott
13:17:19 <fizzie> `@ oerjan @ oerjan welcome oerjan
13:17:22 <HackEgo> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:17:29 <oerjan> a hundred chinese sweatshop workers. the result is pretty good, but somehow cannot recognize "democracy".
13:19:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox ok i made it even better
13:19:34 <fizzie> The sandbox should have one of those falling-sand games embedded in it.
13:20:03 <ais523_> ^ul ((oerjan: )S:^):^
13:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerj ...too much output!
13:20:21 <ais523_> if you're going to recursively ping someone, do it properly
13:20:29 <oerjan> quite so.
13:20:42 <fizzie> It was thrice by intention.
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13:21:43 <oerjan> ^bf >[,>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_:
13:21:51 <oerjan> now what
13:22:00 <fizzie> First [,>] won't run.
13:22:04 <oerjan> bah
13:22:13 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_:
13:22:13 <fungot> ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ...
13:22:41 <fizzie> The ^bf output limit is smaller than the ^ul.
13:22:51 <fizzie> For no particular reason.
13:22:58 <ais523_> I was about to ask, for any particular reason
13:23:01 <ais523_> but I think you answered for me
13:23:08 <oerjan> it's because ^ul is MORE AWESOME. hth.
13:24:39 <fizzie> ^ul (oerjan: )(~:S~:^):^( let's reuse our oerjans to save the environment )
13:24:39 <fungot> oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: oerj ...too much output!
13:24:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox ok i made it the most betterest
13:25:14 <ais523_> fizzie: but we're reusing them anyway
13:25:20 <elliott> hey, an IP edited [[///]] usefully!
13:25:25 <elliott> the featured language thing must be doing some good.
13:25:30 <oerjan> wow
13:25:37 <fizzie> (foo)S *obviously* makes a new foo, as opposed to doing a :S on an existing foo.
13:25:55 <elliott> now i feel guilty about dicking around in the sandbox for the last 10 minutes.
13:25:56 <ais523_> but the (oerjan) is being :ed in both cases
13:26:17 <ais523_> just it's inside another program in one of the cases)
13:26:35 <ais523_> (great things about English #50: it even lets you verb punctuation marks)
13:26:35 <fizzie> You and your facts. I'll have no part with them.
13:27:01 <elliott> ais523_: I think Swedish does that better, they have an actual separator
13:27:09 <elliott> or was it finnish
13:27:14 <ais523_> how many languages allow s/// constructs, with that name?
13:27:26 <ais523_> it might be more fun to link each word of "everybody seems to be doing" to a different language
13:27:32 <ais523_> but that would mean finding five of them
13:27:43 <Jafet> thue
13:27:56 <Jafet> Oh
13:27:59 <oerjan> (oerjan) bliver koloniserad! vad imperialistiskt övergrepp!
13:28:19 <ais523_> thue uses the ::= syntax
13:28:31 <fizzie> (oerjan) kaksoispistetään.
13:28:34 <elliott> ais523_: perl, sed, ed (I think)
13:28:41 <fizzie> It's something like "is being double-put".
13:28:42 <elliott> the s///ing everyone was doing was presumably on IRC, I think
13:28:52 <Jafet> ed, sed, perl, perl6, irp
13:28:56 <Jafet> There you go
13:29:29 <elliott> s/// is not english
13:30:09 <fizzie> Skype does s///, though it's not exactly a language.
13:30:20 <Jafet> And :ing is english, presumably.
13:30:56 <MDude> Huh, I was pretty sure there was a picture on Wikipedia that showed the number line being projected onto a circle.
13:31:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line
13:31:13 <elliott> hth
13:31:39 <Jafet> They couldn't afford an infinite projector.
13:33:52 <elliott> ais523_: hey, mind if I move [[Template:Featured language]] to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]] and [[Template:Featured]] to [[Template:Featured language]]?
13:37:05 <oerjan> <zzo38> quintopia: It probably depends what you are doing, what makes what to be more useful! Chinese seasons says the equinox is in the middle of spring instead of start of spring.
13:37:33 <oerjan> i say the chinese wouldn't do that if they had snow outside the window today.
13:37:39 <oerjan> (yes i do)
13:38:27 <fizzie> The picture in [[w:Real_projective_line]] isn't much of a picture, though. I remember an animooted one that showed the point on the line, and a small disc where it intersected the circle.
13:44:01 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I'm thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Riemann_sphere1.jpg instead.
13:44:09 <fizzie> Though that doesn't move either.
13:44:26 <elliott> It's the dreaded Riemann sphere.
13:44:31 <elliott> (I don't know, it looks hostile.)
13:44:42 <fizzie> It's not very friendly-looking, no.
13:44:57 <fizzie> Though I might be biased, I tend to distrust speheres.
13:45:25 <fizzie> They put these metal spheres on the streets in Helsinki near one harbour area, I swear they switch places when one's not looking.
13:45:31 <fizzie> And then they just stand there, all reflecty.
13:45:53 <elliott> I think they're watching you.
13:45:55 <fizzie> http://photoblogi.blogspot.com/2010/04/metallipallo-helsingissa-olo-no-22.html
13:45:58 <fizzie> Those things.
13:46:17 <fizzie> Okay, it's not so oppressive-looking after it's been "tagged" and dirtied like that.
13:46:29 <fizzie> Actually now I feel a bit of pity. :/
13:46:42 <fizzie> Oh well, e probably deserved it, anyway.
13:47:05 <elliott> Oh, I... thought you were talking about larger spheres.
13:47:10 <elliott> The fear of those made sense.
13:47:18 <fizzie> http://www.flickr.com/photos/raselased/3867863746/ now that's a whole different thing.
13:47:25 <ais523_> elliott: I don't mind
13:47:37 <fizzie> There's all kinds of sizes, from like ~20 cm to maybe a metre or so.
13:47:38 <ais523_> (remember that you can transclude non-templates)
13:47:43 <fizzie> (They keep conspiring.)
13:47:47 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, that one looks a little sinister.
13:47:54 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking of human-to-2x-human-sized spheres.
13:48:08 <elliott> ais523_: obviously, or I wouldn't move {{featured language}} to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]], it'd break the main page :)
13:48:17 <fizzie> Those I would probably just flee from, instead of being slightly unnerved by.
13:48:19 <ais523_> elliott: fun fact: did you know that templates weren't actually added to MediaWiki intentionally?
13:48:34 <elliott> ais523_: you originally transcluded interface messages
13:48:37 <elliott> and people used that to build templates
13:48:44 <elliott> it was {{msg:MediaWiki:foo}} or something
13:48:44 <ais523_> yes, for internationalisation purposes
13:48:50 <elliott> ais523_: I know this because I read a comment where you explained it
13:48:57 <elliott> on Wikipedia, somewhere
13:49:08 <ais523_> and people realised you could put arbitrary stuff in MediaWiki: space even though the software ignored it
13:49:15 <ais523_> and make it think you were internationalising messages
13:49:22 <ais523_> and that's how templates came about
13:49:29 <elliott> ais523_: it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_November_18#Template:Tooltip-article i read it at
13:49:33 <elliott> I got there from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MediaWiki_default
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13:49:42 <ais523_> ah, OK
13:49:54 <elliott> which is hilarious, it has notifications addressed to all bots and proposed deletion notifications
13:49:56 <ais523_> I'm one of the few people to ever have successfully MfDed a MediaWiki:-space page
13:50:06 <elliott> haha, link?
13:50:09 <ais523_> I followed it up by speedying one, I think
13:50:40 <elliott> Comment I've posted the MfD now. Wow, that's the second time I've MfD'd a MediaWiki: page... --ais523 10:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
13:50:43 <RocketJSquirrel> .
13:50:54 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:50:55 <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:50:57 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article
13:51:00 <ais523_> bleh, you beat me to it
13:51:06 <elliott> barely
13:51:10 <elliott> but what was the first one? :)
13:51:47 <elliott> Speedy delete per WP:CSD#R3 - The redirect was created by a bot and there is no evidence that any human has ever used the redirect. It looks like a redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer. Since it was created by a bot, I would say that the "Recently created" aspect of WP:CSD#R3 does not apply. If a human thinks the redirect is needed in the future, they can create it. -- Jreferee t/c 19:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
13:51:47 <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Block_compress_delete
13:51:54 <elliott> ais523_: err, does this person realise you're talking about a MediaWiki-space page?
13:52:06 <ais523_> they probably did, and were intentionally-ignoring the fact
13:52:53 <elliott> [[
13:52:54 <elliott> rebuildMessages.php --rebuild
13:52:54 <elliott> Updates all messages to their current default value, regardless of whether they have been manually edited. This is sometimes used on other wikis when a new messages file has just been created, with a comprehensive set of default messages. It has never been used on the English Wikipedia.
13:52:54 <elliott> ]]
13:52:58 <elliott> I wonder how much it'd break if it _was_ run.
13:53:46 <ais523_> you wouldn't get huge breakage, just lots of messages being less customized
13:54:14 <elliott> yep, but that probably counts as "breakage" for wikipedia
13:54:18 <ais523_> hmm, it's fun to see that in 2006, I wasn't sure what deleting an interface message would do and neither was anyone else
13:54:22 <ais523_> and in 2007, I was explaining it to them
13:54:26 <elliott> all the messages yelling at people about how to edit pages when you click edit would disappear
13:54:48 <elliott> ais523_: you asked if sandbox edits show up in the "edit log" on [[Esolang:Sandbox]] in 2006
13:54:53 <elliott> fast learner, I suppose...
13:55:25 <ais523_> heh
13:55:34 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/doing_it_wrong89.jpg
13:56:12 <ais523_> meanwhile, you might enjoy this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:
13:56:20 <ais523_> it's how I found the relevant MfDs
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14:11:48 <nortti> lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas
14:12:10 <elliott> kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
14:13:04 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:13:27 <fizzie> Kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari is something I always think of first when it comes to longish words.
14:13:41 <nortti> twentytwohourscurrenttimeperiod?
14:17:22 <elliott> nortti: Twentyfour.
14:17:29 <elliott> It's the day of the day of the day of the day!
14:17:40 <nortti> what?
14:17:54 <elliott> http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg, see?
14:19:37 <nortti> http://www.omniglot.com/soundfiles/finnish/hovercraft_fi.mp3
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14:31:37 <elliott> hi ais523
14:31:59 <ais523> try saving and restoring twice
14:34:13 <elliott> ais523: what?
14:34:37 <ais523> I was in the mood for a non sequitur
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14:47:47 <elliott> ais523: hey, can you fix CSS so it supports negative paddings?
14:48:14 <ais523> no
14:48:26 <ais523> would a negative margin work for whatever you're trying to do?
14:48:43 <elliott> unfortunately not, I'm using width: 100%
14:48:58 <elliott> so a negative margin will push it to one of the edges, but leave a space on the other side
14:49:17 <elliott> arguably, a negative margin should apply in all directions, but it doesn't
14:55:46 <ais523> elliott: oh, I fixed my binary diff problem with a bit of out-of-the-box thinking
14:56:30 <ais523> I got the save code to remember, for each thing it wrote out, what it was writing out (with an identifier that wouldn't change over time and was unique for each bit of the save file), and which byte in the save file it started
14:56:42 <ais523> then I compare the files by comparing the tags and going byte-by-byte from there
14:56:48 <ais523> if you believe hashtables to be O(1), it's O(n)
14:57:10 <ais523> and leads to a diff format that has commands seek, copy, edit
14:58:38 <ais523> I'm not even convinced it's an awful hack…
14:58:40 <elliott> i do not believe hashtables to be O(1)!
14:59:46 <ais523> in my case, it's O(n^2) in the limit because I use a linked list upon hash collisions, but O(n) throughout the file sizes that actually happen in practice
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15:09:24 <oerjan> :t (+) . (+) . (+)
15:09:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> ((a -> a) -> a -> a) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
15:10:11 <oerjan> > ((+) . (+) . (+)) 1 2 3 4
15:10:15 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:10:19 <oerjan> wat
15:10:21 <oerjan> > ((+) . (+) . (+)) 1 2 3 4
15:10:22 <lambdabot> 10
15:10:47 <elliott> oerjan: haskell is slow. hth.
15:10:54 <oerjan> O KAY
15:11:21 <elliott> oerjan: thanks for tabling betterave. i was too lazy to.
15:11:26 <oerjan> yw
15:12:21 <elliott> i forget, did i ask you to propose deadfish as a featured language candidate yet :P
15:13:10 <oerjan> you did, but on the other hand the page says to make your suggestion _count_
15:13:26 <elliott> oerjan: hey, counting is one of the few things Deadfish is good at!
15:13:51 <oerjan> although with ais523 and Taneb snatching the very two languages i was considering instead...
15:14:28 <elliott> yes, Glass is a good candidate, but its article needs _work_ before i'll link to it from the main page.
15:14:41 <elliott> for instance, this is not a good lead: "This wiki page describes the structure of Glass, however, it's been described as unintuitive. If you just want to learn Glass, it's recommended that you read the IRC log of #esoteric in which Gregor taught a class on Glass. That log is available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.01.15, and the lesson starts with the line "16:17:57 <GregorR-L> Lesson #1: Classes" Also, Gregor is always willing to ans
15:14:41 <elliott> wer questions about Glass on #esoteric on FreeNode."
15:14:42 <oerjan> i already _did_ work on that ;_;
15:15:02 <elliott> ok well maybe the notice is obsolete then
15:15:17 <elliott> the rest of it certainly seems good quality
15:17:59 <elliott> oerjan: yeah you're right, it's a very good article by our standards
15:18:05 <elliott> just the introduction needs improvement
15:18:10 <elliott> I'll probably do it
15:18:29 <oerjan> yay
15:18:58 <oerjan> i think fixing that up was one of the first things i did after joining the wiki
15:20:11 <elliott> @ask RocketJSquirrel What is the replacement address for http://www.befunge.org/fyb/glass/?
15:20:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:20:23 <elliott> Ah, http://codu.org/eso/glass/.
15:20:50 <elliott> oerjan: is Glass TC?
15:20:58 <elliott> i would presume so, it obviously has the necessary control flow, but are the integers unbounded?
15:21:26 <elliott> (also, do you think it belongs in [[Category:Low-level]]? on the one hand, it involves lots of stack-munging and "VMy" things; on the other hand, it's OOP...)
15:21:41 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot imagine how it wouldn't be with a complete object system, although i have never looked deeply into how using it in real OOP style works
15:22:04 <oerjan> but i'd imagine you can make linked lists and stuff
15:22:08 <elliott> right
15:22:47 <oerjan> ...i think part of glass is being _both_ high and low level in a ridiculous way
15:23:04 <elliott> indeed, i'll leave it without either of the categories
15:23:29 <elliott> oerjan: i really wish there was a wikicode shorthand for <code>.
15:23:48 <elliott> or at least a shortcut for it.
15:23:54 <elliott> erm, shortcut key that is
15:24:01 <oerjan> heh
15:25:22 <oerjan> huh i joined the wiki before i even got my laptop. it may have been part of the reason why i got it, as my aunt got fed up with me using her computer all the time :P
15:25:56 <elliott> [[Glass is considered unique by its creator because it combines the
15:25:57 <elliott> unintuitive postfix notation with object orientation, and also requires
15:25:57 <elliott> extensive use of a main stack, despite being (mostly)
15:25:57 <elliott> object oriented.]]
15:26:07 <elliott> it is also considered unique because it is redundant, and redundant.
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15:28:00 <elliott> !glass poop
15:28:01 <EgoBot> OK
15:28:39 <fizzie> Glass houses.
15:29:07 <elliott> oerjan: ok now i need to work out how to work in the fact that EgoBot interprets it (because most people probably don't want to compile a C++ program)
15:29:59 <elliott> oerjan: also, your /// interpreter is available on your site, right? there's no point duplicating it on-wiki if so.
15:31:12 <oerjan> elliott: er i _made_ it to be included on the wiki. the fact that i also have several versions on my site is incidental.
15:31:26 <oerjan> it is after all quite short.
15:31:47 <elliott> oerjan: well, it is not the ideal place for code...
15:31:53 <elliott> you can Ctrl+S a standalone file
15:32:21 <elliott> (indeed graue has deleted code pages after migrating them to the file archive)
15:32:27 <elliott> i suppose it's short enough that it doesn't matter.
15:39:48 <elliott> oerjan: hey what do you think about swapping the colours of the meta and for readers box on the main page
15:43:25 <oerjan> those are afaict the two most compatible colors in the set and so i don't feel swapping them should make much of a difference
15:43:53 <elliott> blue feels like a meta colour for some reason. also, green is our colour, so it should be on the most important section, or something.
15:44:22 <oerjan> ok
15:44:22 <elliott> done
15:44:32 <elliott> i notice nobody has commented on the last link in the meta section yet :
15:44:33 <elliott> :P
15:44:47 <oerjan> i read about it in the logs.
15:45:37 * oerjan wonders if he should mention that he doesn't really like peach color
15:46:07 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh, i had a hard enough time coming up with acceptable colours in general.
15:46:13 <elliott> that one is meant to be pale red.
15:46:21 <elliott> feel free to suggest a better one :P
15:46:28 <elliott> (well, pale red / orange)
15:46:37 <elliott> (orange was suggested; that was the result of trying to make orange pale enough)
15:48:27 <elliott> oerjan: as in, a better colour, not a better pale red
15:48:39 <elliott> it is a bit close to the featured language colour.
15:49:23 * oerjan is not good with style design
15:51:58 * elliott fixes formatting bug
15:52:02 <elliott> (the boxes were too tall, vertically)
15:52:51 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors will inspire you :P
15:56:16 <elliott> This article definitely needs a different picture, in the one showing at the moment square A is obviously darker than square B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
15:56:16 <elliott> -- comment left on [[Talk:Checker shadow illusion]]
15:59:16 <elliott> You are a liar, sir. They are not the same color. This might work in a real-life example, but the picture is a mock-up to show the effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
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16:00:04 <nortti> ...
16:00:32 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: People are wonderfully stupid.
16:00:32 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:00:37 <RocketJSquirrel> @messages
16:00:37 <lambdabot> elliott asked 40m 26s ago: What is the replacement address for http://www.befunge.org/fyb/glass/?
16:00:45 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: http://codu.org/eso/glass/
16:00:46 <elliott> I found it.
16:00:48 <elliott> Yes, thanks.
16:01:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: There's even a crank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Checker_shadow_illusion#Equivocation
16:02:21 <RocketJSquirrel> Holy lol
16:03:57 <elliott> That guy has posted comments on the page from 2009 to 2011.
16:06:29 <oerjan> bah every attempt either looks worse or too similar to wikipedia's scheme :P
16:06:39 <elliott> oerjan: i don't care about similarity to wikipedia's scheme
16:06:53 <elliott> oerjan: otoh i would like it if it was a three-letter rgb code
16:07:03 <elliott> i.e. #rgb rather than #rrggbb
16:07:09 <elliott> i don't know why that is, it just makes me happier :P
16:07:21 <elliott> if you have any ones that look nice go ahead, I'll try them out
16:07:43 -!- Frooxius has joined.
16:08:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Inflection Well this is a lovely talk page masquerading as an article.
16:08:35 <oerjan> elliott: i was sort of working within that restriction. what i have right now is FE5 for featured and ECF for creators
16:09:13 <elliott> oerjan: er you don't like the featured colour either?
16:09:32 <elliott> i'm rather attached to yellow for that one, it's brighter than the other colours on the page like a highlight.
16:09:39 <oerjan> i thought making it closer to gold might make it sort of more prominent
16:09:51 * elliott takes a look
16:09:54 <oerjan> well yes, with my scheme it's still the only warm color
16:10:04 <elliott> well, it's more prominent, but it also kind of ruins the pastel thing
16:10:10 <oerjan> ah well
16:10:20 <elliott> ECF is quite nice, I was wondering if purple might be good
16:11:12 <elliott> otoh it could do with being a little less close to DDE, the meta colour
16:11:15 <oerjan> as i implied, green-blue-purple is wikipedia's scheme :P
16:12:08 <oerjan> i have a problem getting it less close without giving it the red tint i'm trying to remove in the first place
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16:13:08 <elliott> wikipedia's purple is #DDCEF2, for what that's worth.
16:13:20 <elliott> so roughly #DDF or perhaps #DCF.
16:13:49 <elliott> er, more like DCF.
16:14:04 <elliott> otoh that's even closer to the meta colour
16:14:42 <oerjan> oh well, later ->
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16:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional
16:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Guys tell me this was mocked appropriately at the time.
16:55:43 <elliott> I think I might have.
16:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> phew
16:57:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also oi what do you think of the new Code blocks: They are enclosed with { and }. For example: if (equals(a,b), {print("a equals to b") } )
16:57:56 <elliott> .
16:57:59 <elliott> Argh.
16:58:01 <elliott> The new http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
16:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they were just another sign of the awfulness of it.
16:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't like the colour scheme, needs more contrast between "For creators" and "Featured language".
17:01:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to suggest a better colour for "for creators".
17:01:14 <elliott> oerjan tried and failed.
17:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Orange? Does that not work?
17:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is the result of me trying to make orange pastelly enough.
17:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh; red?
17:01:44 <elliott> Also, if you think orange will make it look *less* like the featured language heading...
17:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is also the result of me trying to make red pastelly enough.
17:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i, um
17:02:03 <elliott> It turns out that light red and light orange are both peach.
17:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> OK you realise that
17:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> there are pastels which are red
17:02:25 <elliott> I suppose I could make it pink but I couldn't find a nice pink.
17:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> have you never used pastels
17:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> look
17:02:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mean pastel.
17:02:50 <elliott> I mean... what's the word.
17:02:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Commercial_pastels.JPG
17:02:55 <elliott> For those light colours.
17:02:57 <elliott> Soft.
17:02:59 <elliott> You know.
17:03:17 <elliott> "Of a soft and delicate shade or color."
17:03:19 <elliott> Okay, I do mean pastel.
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17:19:10 <elliott> yay, I got G. to ragequit!
17:19:18 <elliott> I must get some kind of badge for that
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17:27:24 <fizzie> What's a "G."?
17:27:52 -!- cheater_ has joined.
17:28:13 <fizzie> Also #dce is closer to #ddcef2 than #dcf.
17:28:21 <elliott> fizzie: Formerly Goethe.
17:28:39 <elliott> Very-long-time nomic player (and internet nomic player), current Agora player.
17:28:44 <fizzie> Hokay.
17:29:00 <elliott> A bit on the curmudgeonly site.
17:29:01 <elliott> *side.
17:29:17 <elliott> Also one of them fisheries research biologists.
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17:30:43 -!- Sleeptalik has changed nick to Tiktalik.
17:37:15 <augur> ehhh
17:37:33 <augur> which of you people made computer music?
17:37:49 <quintopia> my computer musics all the time
17:38:06 <augur> :P
17:38:12 <quintopia> (what do you mean "computer music"?)
17:38:23 <elliott> music of computers flying out of windows
17:38:32 <elliott> obviously
17:38:38 <quintopia> if i had that kind of money
17:38:42 <quintopia> it would totally happen
17:39:46 <augur> which of you has a self photo where you're wearing a hat
17:39:49 <augur> thats the question
17:40:07 <augur> maybe its not, but
17:40:28 <Sgeo> Lawlabee
17:40:34 <Sgeo> aka RocketJSquirrel
17:40:40 <augur> no no
17:40:54 <augur> one of you makes piano music on your computer!
17:41:05 <quintopia> gregor
17:41:15 <quintopia> ^
17:41:17 <augur> OH
17:41:19 <augur> I SEE
17:41:26 <RocketJSquirrel> What do you want from me >_<
17:41:31 <augur> http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_rickard_the_beautiful_math_behind_the_ugliest_music.html
17:42:02 <RocketJSquirrel> augur: Yes, I've seen it. It is a very poor attempt at being bad music.
17:42:19 <augur> :P
17:42:30 <augur> i suppose it depends on what you mean by bad but fine
17:42:36 <quintopia> also golomb ruler is p cool. i remember reading about it in a gardner book
17:43:36 <elliott> augur: That thing is a fine example of why TED talks are complete bullshit.
17:43:42 <augur> hah
17:43:58 <augur> do tell why you think this is so
17:44:22 <elliott> The music has melody and rhythm; I found it perfectly listenable. It might not be a pop song, but it's hardly the most ugly or dischordant music by a very long shot.
17:44:38 <elliott> Oh, it's not even a TED talk.
17:44:40 <augur> it had neither melody nor rhythm, i dont know what you're talking about
17:44:51 <elliott> It's a TEDx talk.
17:44:57 <elliott> Relatedly, another TEDx talk was about that vortex math thing.
17:45:25 <augur> what vortex math thing
17:45:38 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzfgq1zv8jg
17:46:06 <elliott> Don't watch unless you want 10 minutes of complete mathematical/scientific crackpottery.
17:46:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Indeed it has neither melody or rhythm, but that's kind of why it's such a poor attempt at bad music.
17:46:53 <RocketJSquirrel> It simply isn't music at all.
17:46:59 <RocketJSquirrel> To be bad music, you have to be an attempt at music.
17:47:18 <RocketJSquirrel> It's like saying that radar blips are bad music.
17:47:26 <elliott> It's definitely music.
17:47:33 <elliott> My standards for melody and rhythm may be lower than others.
17:47:46 <elliott> But I certainly didn't find it an especially unpleasant arrangement of sounds, just boring.
17:47:49 <augur> lolwut
17:47:57 <augur> oh man this is painfully stupid
17:47:59 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> But I certainly didn't find it an especially unpleasant arrangement of sounds, just boring. <-- this is the only part of that I agree with
17:48:29 <augur> i think that's the wrong definition of bad, then
17:48:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The main problem is that it's played way too slowly, so it just sounds like a bunch of notes.
17:48:42 <augur> the goal was clearly laid out
17:48:46 <elliott> You can make anything sound like a bunch of notes.
17:48:55 <augur> the measure of goodness he employed was quite precise, and he achieved the opposite of it
17:49:06 <RocketJSquirrel> augur: Right, yes.
17:49:10 <RocketJSquirrel> It's just a very silly measure of goodness.
17:49:14 <augur> your measure of good or bad is "how pleasing it is"
17:49:14 <nortti> RocketJSquirrel: why does your post contain 0x08 byte before and after < and >?
17:49:15 <augur> which is fine
17:49:30 <augur> but its not the measure he was using
17:49:37 <augur> obviously the measure he was using is crap but
17:49:58 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: Why doesn't YOURS?
17:49:59 <elliott> But seriously, TED talks are basically a tool by which people can make themselves feel excited and enlightened while learning nothing of significance, and by which people can promote themselves and make what they're doing sound vital and perfect, no matter what it is.
17:50:25 <elliott> It's complete bullshit.
17:50:27 <augur> elliott: mostly true
17:50:33 <augur> there are some really good presentations tho
17:50:44 <elliott> Sure. Some people are interesting enough to rescue any venue.
17:51:15 <RocketJSquirrel> Like myself 8-D
17:51:17 <RocketJSquirrel> (See /topic)
17:51:30 -!- augur has set topic: see what now.
17:51:37 <RocketJSquirrel> :(
17:51:40 -!- augur has set topic: This is SURPRISINGLY the WEIRDEST CHEESE you will ANNOTATE all RAMADAN: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:53:39 <nortti> does anyone here have any experience with RISC OS or MorphOS?
17:54:49 <quintopia> i agree with elliott re: definition of music. i do not require such trivialities as melody, rhythm, harmony. i actually have schoenberg, webern, etc. in my collection. klangfarbenmelodie is pretty cool.
17:55:05 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxch-yi14BE <-- this is amazing, watch it now
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17:56:28 <Taneb> Hello!
17:56:32 <augur> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K93dL65Q724
17:58:09 <elliott> augur: i watched the first few videos of the intro by the guy in the tedx talk
17:58:14 <elliott> they were enthralling, we watched them in here communally
17:58:20 <elliott> very enlightening stuff
17:58:23 <augur> oh my god dude this is comedy gold
17:58:43 <elliott> no the other guy's are better
17:58:49 <elliott> i haven't even watched these and i can guarantee it
18:01:35 <RocketJSquirrel> Hmm, is there a from-source package system and archive that makes some sort of attempt to work on multiple OSes?
18:04:15 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]).
18:05:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: rpm?
18:05:26 <elliott> Wait, whaddya mean by OSes
18:05:33 <elliott> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html runs on multiple OSes
18:05:35 <elliott> pkgsrc that is
18:05:43 <elliott> lots of them in fact
18:05:50 <elliott> so does Nix/Nixpkgs
18:06:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Neither of those use package archives though.
18:06:32 <RocketJSquirrel> I suppose that's not the important part.
18:06:37 <RocketJSquirrel> Just that it be able to automate package building.
18:06:39 <elliott> pkgsrc is the typical ports-ish system, Nix uses derivation files on their own that reference external file sources.
18:06:41 <RocketJSquirrel> Not sure why I even thought that.
18:06:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Most people handle the building concern separately to package systems, I think.
18:06:58 <elliott> What's your use case?
18:07:07 <RocketJSquirrel> musl/sabotage ^^
18:07:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, I don't see what you mean by "OS" then.
18:07:56 <elliott> Obviously rpm/dpkg/apt-get will work on anything Linuxy.
18:08:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, and conveniently install glibc over my pretty musl system.
18:08:12 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't want to set up a complete package repository.
18:08:27 <RocketJSquirrel> I just want a way to bootstrap "try to install <this thing>" that doesn't involve me trudging through tons of packages myself.
18:08:32 <olsner> "The implementation should be 100% C++ object oriented"
18:08:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Uh...
18:08:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohhh, package archive
18:08:47 <elliott> As in archive of packages
18:08:54 <elliott> Not as in archive format for packages
18:08:59 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh, hahah, yes.
18:09:00 <elliott> I was thinking you wanted a .rpm/.deb type thing
18:09:03 <RocketJSquirrel> Nonono
18:09:05 <RocketJSquirrel> Not at all.
18:09:11 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, Nix/Nixpkgs uses the system libc, I think.
18:09:17 <elliott> It bootstraps everything else though (its own compilers, etc.)
18:09:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But it works on OS X and Cygwin, so it should work on musl.
18:09:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Of course, that doesn't handle the "OSy" things, but in your situation it couldn't anyway.
18:09:51 <RocketJSquirrel> Yeah, and I don't want it to.
18:10:10 <elliott> pkgsrc would... probably also work, but it's hard to quantify the immense magnitude of superiority Nix has over a bunch of Makefiles.
18:10:23 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, Nix is C++ though, so you'll have to get libc++ working.
18:10:31 <elliott> pikhq_: (Is the C++ support for musl in a release or just the latest git?)
18:10:35 <RocketJSquirrel> Oh bloody frrrp
18:10:47 <RocketJSquirrel> I have a g++, but I suspect it to be nonworking.
18:10:55 <olsner> Nix is C++? :/
18:10:57 <elliott> It's the runtime libraries that matter.
18:11:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You could use Slackware's "package manager" and archive.
18:11:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Since they don't patch, the packages probably work.
18:11:21 <elliott> On the other hand, the package manager doesn't work.
18:11:25 <elliott> It's a trade-off.
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18:11:40 <elliott> olsner: yeah :(
18:11:49 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I feel I'd be safer with an archive that at least makes an attempt to work in multiple places already.
18:12:10 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How about Gentoo Prefix
18:12:17 <elliott> Works on Linux, BSD, OS X and Interix.
18:12:30 <elliott> Sure, emerge sucks, and Gentoo sucks, but it's a *lot* of packages.
18:12:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Hmmmm
18:13:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: OTOH I think it might want to build its own gcc, but I guess if you're bootstrapping that won't be a problem.
18:13:32 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You'll still want to put it as /opt or the like though, obviously, since it can't handle everything.
18:13:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, you could just put it as /usr and use {/bin,/lib}.
18:14:09 <RocketJSquirrel> I'll put it in /opt or something, I have no desire to trudge on /.
18:14:23 <elliott> /usr is more suitable than /opt :P
18:14:37 <elliott> Or, I guess sabotage already uses /usr *shrug*
18:14:44 <RocketJSquirrel> It's an ln -s /
18:14:48 <elliott> /usr/local then :P
18:14:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yeah, and if you change that, /usr/bin/env would break etc.
18:15:11 <RocketJSquirrel> /local could work.
18:15:30 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think Gentoo Prefix uses /opt/gentoo by default, so probably easiest to stick with that.
18:16:08 <RocketJSquirrel> It just seems to have an awfully large number of basic packages it builds into the prefix first >_>
18:16:22 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm fairly sure that just ./configure in gcc won't build a working gcc on musl.
18:17:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It should if you have a bootstrapped system.
18:17:19 <elliott> With musl as system libc and thus no musl-gcc.
18:17:40 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But you won't find any package sets that are widely-portable and use all the system facilities.
18:17:45 <RocketJSquirrel> No, because it will have the wrong dynamic loader, and I think certain components of gcc don't work anyway. sabotage's build of GCC has tons of options.
18:17:45 <elliott> That's basically impossible.
18:17:52 <elliott> They have to be isolationist by design.
18:18:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, fair enough. You can patch the gcc package, though.
18:18:16 <RocketJSquirrel> I just want it to use system gcc, glibc >_>
18:18:22 <RocketJSquirrel> Err, s/glibc/libc/
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18:20:16 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Make a dummy gcc package that installs symlinks, then.
18:20:23 <elliott> Should work.
18:20:56 <RocketJSquirrel> There's the secondary issue that whatever it installs into the prefix will be very GNUy.
18:21:00 <RocketJSquirrel> It'll probably install GNU coreutils etc.
18:21:08 <RocketJSquirrel> Goes against the NoGNU/Linux intent.
18:21:19 <RocketJSquirrel> But yeah, I'll try it first.
18:23:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: If you just want NoGNU/Linux, your system will be sufficiently useless and bare that you will have no need for a package manager.
18:24:05 <RocketJSquirrel> 8-D
18:24:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: P.S. Suggest a featured language candidate.
18:24:26 <RocketJSquirrel> Kipple
18:24:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: On http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates :P
18:24:53 <RocketJSquirrel> Pff
18:25:56 <RocketJSquirrel> I admit upon further observation that its page is rather ... spartan.
18:27:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Doesn't matter, the candidates page is meant to drive people to improve the articles of the candidates they prefer anyway.
18:27:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
18:27:41 <RocketJSquirrel> ???
18:28:01 <elliott> I hate everybody.
18:28:19 <RocketJSquirrel> Alphabetical order is for losers.
18:28:36 <elliott> I just edited the page to fix Taneb's addition right before yours :P
18:29:06 <RocketJSquirrel> Also, the instructions don't say you should sign your addition, but everyone is.
18:29:21 <elliott> ==List of candidates==
18:29:21 <elliott> <!--
18:29:21 <elliott> Use this syntax:
18:29:21 <elliott> * [[Language name]] ~~~~
18:29:21 <elliott> -->
18:29:30 <elliott> Perhaps because of that.
18:29:39 <elliott> In my defence, ais523 added that signature when adding his entry without updating the rest of the instructions.
18:29:46 <elliott> He is ROGUE.
18:38:17 <RocketJSquirrel> But he didn't even use that syntax ...
18:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF, Orisinal updated????
18:39:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i
18:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know what to believe in any more.
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18:41:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Eh?
18:41:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Oh, because he uses ~~~ for his fancy (UTC).
18:41:50 <elliott> Details :P
18:42:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is Orisinal?
18:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
18:42:25 <Phantom_Hoover> That collection of Flash games?
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The one with Winterbells?
18:42:41 <elliott> I take it you are emulating the tone I take when you don't know of a thing.
18:43:19 <elliott> oh my god winterbells
18:43:22 <elliott> bu
18:43:23 <elliott> nny
18:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I was taking the "come on you've heard of Winterbells surely".
18:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> *tone
18:44:36 <elliott> this game is ,,, hard
18:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait had you heard of Winterbells?
18:45:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no
18:45:47 <elliott> but
18:45:49 <elliott> i am so happy i have now
18:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (BtW, the highest recorded score is ~7,531,195,809,589,061,900,000.)
18:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Apparently the author didn't account for the ridiculous heights to which scores could go.)
18:47:14 <elliott> Sounds scripted.
18:47:21 <elliott> My highest score is, uh, 140.
18:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but note that a) the score per bell increases by 10 each bell and b) the birds which double your score are pretty common.
18:49:47 <elliott> Fair enough.
18:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you play that Hexagon game, by the way?
18:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe; I don't know what you're talking about.
18:51:17 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/
18:51:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: From the vvvvvvtoo many vs guy.
18:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> this is horribl
18:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> e
18:52:58 <Phantom_Hoover> why
18:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> would he do this to me
18:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> aaaaa
18:54:15 <elliott> It gets worse on level 3.
18:56:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://jonaslund.com/works/selfsurfing/
18:56:25 <elliott> This is the best thing ever(?).
19:04:47 <RocketJSquirrel> ... these words.
19:04:49 <RocketJSquirrel> They are words.
19:04:54 <RocketJSquirrel> That is all I can say of them.
19:05:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Which words
19:05:48 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The words on that page.
19:06:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's a Chrome extension that mirrors all the pages open in that guy's browser.
19:07:08 <elliott> He is browsing random nonsense for 24 hours in the most pointless performance art ever :P
19:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously?
19:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god.
19:07:43 <RocketJSquirrel> ... wow.
19:08:38 <elliott> Derivative idea: That, but decentralised. Everyone synchronised, and everyone in control.
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19:14:29 <elliott> "I would like to ask this question because of two reasons. First, my only interest in programming is to write Sokoban programs"
19:14:53 <Deewiant> I'm a square.
19:15:24 <elliott> wat
19:16:00 <Deewiant> 2012-03-20 20:51:06 ( elliott) http://distractionware.com/games/flash/hexagon/
19:16:27 <elliott> Ah.
19:16:29 <fizzie> From elsewhere; it was suggested the call stack in a C implementation can give you an arbitrary-sized counter (or an arbitrary-sized finite-alphabet stack) that won't necessarily run into "void * has finite size" problems, as long as you just call functions with no parameters and don't use any auto variables.
19:16:49 <elliott> Deewiant: It's the thick red-band things that do me in; I rotate around them fine, but end up in the wrong rotation for the thing that immediately follows.
19:16:55 <fizzie> Sadly, that's just one stack/counter.
19:17:01 <elliott> fizzie: That's well-known here; the problem is that you only get a PDA.
19:17:11 <Deewiant> elliott: Yeah, they're annoying.
19:21:44 <elliott> About: "I like the puzzle game Sokoban." Website: sokoban.ws
19:21:49 <elliott> I'm sensing a pattern from this person.
19:22:25 <RocketJSquirrel> Yes, you can get a PDA out of C. Still no TC for you.
19:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought PDAs went out of fashion a decade ago?
19:25:08 <fizzie> Public displays of affection will *never* go out of fashion.
19:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe in pansy Finland.
19:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland any public display of anything other than violent hatred towards another human is considered a sign of weakness.
19:30:45 <RocketJSquirrel> ... friendship ... is magic?
19:43:43 <Slereah> Ponies!
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20:10:37 <RocketJSquirrel> Slereah: Indeed.
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20:58:02 <elliott> hi oerjan
20:58:08 <oerjan> hi elliott
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21:04:08 <oerjan> elliott: you talked about using something more pink, what about FCF?
21:04:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Are you still deliberating over front page colours?
21:04:47 <Phantom__Hoover> (Why are you specifying 12-bit colours?)
21:05:08 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Because the other ones are 12-bit!
21:05:08 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i just restarted deliberating as i came back home and had the tabs open
21:05:10 <fizzie> 12 bits should be enough for everyone.
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21:05:27 <elliott> oerjan: a bit too strong: that makes it the brightest section on a page.
21:05:32 <elliott> `welcome jackd
21:05:35 <elliott> *on the page
21:05:35 <HackEgo> jackd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:05:40 <oerjan> elliott: and FDF?
21:05:52 <fizzie> oerjan: And FSF.
21:05:53 <elliott> oerjan: ooh that's good
21:05:55 <oerjan> (i was wavering between those)
21:06:12 <elliott> i'll think about it some more, FDF is the best candidate yet though
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21:06:40 <fizzie> You must try all 4096. It's not that much.
21:06:49 <fizzie> Well-welcomed, again.
21:07:39 <elliott> oerjan: i have to admit, i am slightly attached to the current colour scheme in that it has both the "standard" primary colours and the RGB primary colours.
21:07:54 <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other)
21:08:38 <oerjan> i'm thinking that the _green_ now is a little to strong with the rest, what about DFC?
21:08:41 <elliott> #FDF is tempting, though
21:08:50 <oerjan> *too
21:09:11 <Phantom__Hoover> You know, that instant_reddart bot fascinates me.
21:09:17 <elliott> oerjan: #DFC seems more consistent. otoh that is the _first_ section people should read, so it using a strnoger colour makes sense
21:09:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Why would anyone ever make something like that?
21:09:41 <elliott> oerjan: it is true that the current one seems a little dark though
21:10:16 <oerjan> hm
21:10:20 <elliott> oerjan: i have wondered if colouring the background of the box contents with a lighter version of the header colours might be a decent idea, like wikipedia does.
21:10:32 <elliott> (we're ripping off their design to a point where i don't care about doing so further.)
21:10:37 <oerjan> heh me too
21:10:44 <elliott> the page seems a little bland without it
21:10:47 <elliott> compared to the previous one
21:11:00 <fizzie> elliott: My suggestion: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb.png
21:12:44 <oerjan> <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other) <-- i was trying to get something like "all the non-feature ones are cold, and equally far from each other, while the feature one stands out more"
21:12:52 <oerjan> (and is warm)
21:13:16 <fizzie> (Just always remember to obey http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb2.png and everything will be fine.)
21:14:16 <oerjan> very merry colors, that
21:14:38 <fizzie> They're the official colours of the new "visual whateveritwas" of our university.
21:14:52 <fizzie> Well, "new", it was new two years back, maybe.
21:15:56 <fizzie> The second image is trying to indicate that when you pick a color for the logo, its immediate neighbours are then illegal to use anywhere.
21:17:53 <fizzie> Our official typefaces are Nimbus Sans Bold combined with Sentinel.
21:19:46 <elliott> <oerjan> <elliott> (ok mainly i just like that all the colours seem "equally far apart" from each other) <-- i was trying to get something like "all the non-feature ones are cold, and equally far from each other, while the feature one stands out more"
21:19:47 <elliott> ok
21:20:05 <elliott> oerjan: mind you, "for readers" is arguably more important than "featured language".
21:20:30 <elliott> i think that paler green makes the rest of the page look more pastel, paradoxically.
21:21:41 <oerjan> elliott: btw i have hunch you won't be able to fit even lighter background versions into 12 bit
21:21:44 <oerjan> *+a
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21:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: well i was going to derive them from the header values.
21:22:31 <elliott> with HSV or something of the sort.
21:22:46 <elliott> (ideally the template would do it itself)
21:22:58 <oerjan> ok
21:23:33 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Well, g++ appears to at least partially work.
21:23:45 <RocketJSquirrel> I can compile hello.cc using iostream.
21:28:21 <fizzie> CSS3 added HSL color specifications. fcolor uses that in the canvas-drawing for the hue-bar, and maybe something else too.
21:30:02 <fizzie> Also the weirdest; the HSL color conversion in CSS3 Color Module is given in ABC, of all the possible languages. Though admittedly it does look kinda pseudo like that.
21:30:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Impressive.
21:30:28 <fizzie> It's all "HOW TO RETURN" "PUT x IN y".
21:30:29 <elliott> fizzie: Seriously?
21:30:34 <fizzie> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#hsl-color
21:30:50 <elliott> CSS3 work started circa 1999, so wtf?
21:33:01 <MDude> I'm not sure what http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/argb2.png is meant to convey. Is it minimal distance needed for a color to seem distinct?
21:33:25 <fizzie> MDude: <fizzie> The second image is trying to indicate that when you pick a color for the logo, its immediate neighbours are then illegal to use anywhere.
21:33:40 <fizzie> So I guess that's kinda "yes".
21:34:20 <fizzie> Except the official recommendation is to use colors at least three steps apart, that's just a rule w.r.t. the color chosen for the logo.
21:34:54 <MDude> Well you want stuff next to each toher if you want something like flames in the background.
21:35:16 <MDude> But that's stuff that isn't really part of the logo so much as a texture applied to it.
21:35:47 <fizzie> That's not something you're allowed to do.
21:36:11 <fizzie> There's also three "official" logo colors (116 C, 032 C and 300 C), so if you do what's sorta-recommended and random-select one of those, you either go with 355 C green for the rest, or programmatically select those too.
21:36:34 <MDude> I'm not sure what you're talking about, sicne I tohught this was about general logo design.
21:36:47 <fizzie> No, it's about our university's particular logo.
21:36:48 <elliott> Google Wave University.
21:37:16 <elliott> fizzie: Have you considered opening an English branch in Mexico?
21:37:27 <elliott> Mexican Wave University.
21:38:08 <MDude> So they neet a logo that consists of untextured some kind of shape?
21:38:15 <MDude> Could I see the current logo?
21:38:20 <MDude> Oh wait dinner or something.
21:39:25 <elliott> Their logo is top-left of http://www.aalto.fi/fi/; that's just the guidelines on how you use it.
21:39:32 <elliott> They put all kinds of symbols after it in different colours.
21:39:49 <elliott> fizzie: I see they made the site uglier.
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21:45:52 <fizzie> There's three colors and three punctuation characters, ?, ! and ".
21:46:09 <fizzie> Also there's an irssi script to "aaltofy" text by inserting random punctuation here and there.
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21:49:56 <fizzie> Also what's up with the front page, there's a blatant violation of the guidelines with a blue ! and a violet bar, even though those are neighbour colours.
21:50:27 <fizzie> Yeah, the logo color randomizes, while the page content doesn't.
21:50:28 <fizzie> How rude.
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23:24:44 <olsner> so the compiler is done, but it fails when run in clang, because clang fails to initialize static variables in templates in the right order or something like that
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23:35:56 <olsner> starting to think that the compile-time environment is, sadly, more sane than the run-time environment
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