←2012-03-25 2012-03-26 2012-03-27→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:19 <zzo38> What nonsense!
00:01:08 <elliott> hi
00:05:13 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/126819/esoteric-programming-languages-acceptable-or-discouraged finally, someone gives us the recognition we deserve
00:06:20 <Slereah> Why are half the well known esolangs bullshit ones
00:06:59 <pikhq> Most people have no taste.
00:07:38 <Sgeo_> "Esoteric languages are part of Stack Overflow as every other language, two of them (Python and Ruby1) are even featured in SO's 404 polyglot:"
00:07:46 <Slereah> At least two of those are just cyphers of generic languages
00:07:52 <Sgeo_> "1 If you are a Pythonista or a Rubyist and feel like chopping my head off, just replace that with C and Perl.
00:07:52 <Sgeo_> "
00:07:54 <Slereah> That is basically putting stickers on your car
00:08:03 <oerjan> zzo38: hey you just have to invent a time machine, nothing big!
00:09:24 <elliott> maybe i should call my next language Brain@%#!
00:09:26 <elliott> or Brainf**k
00:10:19 <Slereah> Is it like brainfuck except instead of +-<>[]., you only use swears
00:10:47 <elliott> no, it's in fact nothing like brainf**k, maybe i should make it a CA or something
00:11:03 <pikhq> Or a cypher of lolcode.
00:11:04 <pikhq> :P
00:11:12 <Slereah> Shit piss cunt motherfucker tits cocks turd and twat
00:11:19 <Slereah> fart, too
00:11:45 <elliott> a cipher of lolcode called "C"
00:12:03 <Slereah> We shall call it srscode
00:12:10 <Slereah> And it will just be C
00:12:32 <pikhq> Honestly, C makes for a decent esolang.
00:13:00 <Slereah> Well it's basically the only language that I have been taught
00:13:10 <Slereah> So for me it's pretty much what a programming language is
00:15:51 <elliott> What happened to the snake?
00:17:01 <Slereah> He has gone to read his SICP
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00:19:26 <elliott> goodnight
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00:23:10 <oerjan> b*a*n*u*k and *r*i*f*c*
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00:29:13 <Madoka-Kaname> Make a brainfuck variant named banukrifc
00:29:42 <oerjan> ^scramble brainfuck
00:29:43 <fungot> banukcfir
00:29:54 <oerjan> oh right
00:30:14 <oerjan> ^unscramble brainfuck
00:30:14 <fungot> bkrcauifn
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00:36:17 <Sgeo_> banuk?
00:36:28 <Sgeo_> Sounds like baduk which is an alternative name of Go I think
00:36:35 <Sgeo_> monqy, UPDATE
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03:34:12 <oklopol> what's up
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03:34:35 <oklopol> i just read cyanide and happiness
03:34:35 <oerjan> oklopol: have you seen our new wiki main page?
03:34:41 <oklopol> no
03:34:56 <oklopol> please link it so i don't have to do _anything_
03:35:04 <oerjan> `welcome oklopol
03:35:08 <HackEgo> oklopol: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:35:40 <oklopol> featured language! you did it :D
03:35:49 <oerjan> ME FAMOUS
03:36:04 <oerjan> AND TSWETT TOO
03:36:27 <oklopol> well i meant that you added the whole featured language thing, you as in u pplz.
03:36:34 <oklopol> i recall this being discussed
03:36:44 <oerjan> yes. although mostly elliott.
03:38:37 <oklopol> is elly the new elliott
03:38:52 <oklopol> doesn't look like it but who knows
03:39:10 <oerjan> no, elly is the new has-suspiciously-similar-initials-to elliott
03:39:18 <oklopol> i see.
03:39:43 <tswett> Wooooo.
03:39:48 <oklopol> so i have no moneys, will someone lend me some
03:40:02 <tswett> Ihope127 was a genius. It's a shame he's no longer with us.
03:40:08 <oklopol> i mean give me
03:40:20 <oerjan> a great tragedy.
03:40:39 <tswett> The world mourns this loss.
03:41:06 <oklopol> did he have ass cancer
03:41:13 <tswett> How should I know?
03:41:41 <oklopol> well could he sit anywhere?
03:41:51 * tswett up arrow enter
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03:42:06 <oklopol> how should i know
03:42:11 <oklopol> you brought him up
03:42:18 <tswett> I... I did?
03:42:23 <tswett> I don't remember this at all.
03:42:28 <oklopol> well really i guess it was oerjan
03:42:37 <oerjan> yes. you were a remarkably bad parent, though.
03:42:58 <oerjan> always absent
03:43:15 <tswett> I guess you're probably joking.
03:43:34 <oklopol> no one knows
03:43:45 <oerjan> yes. any similarity to _real_ children you are abandonic is mere coincidence.
03:43:50 <oerjan> *ing
03:44:31 <oklopol> i just got this thousand or so euros for my conference trip, and i'm wondering if the paperwork is worth doing or should i just pay it myself
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03:45:03 <oklopol> you have to like give them a report and receipts from the trip
03:45:11 <oklopol> like what the fuck, just gimme the moneys
03:45:35 <oerjan> ah the conference paperwork panic, i remember it well.
03:45:46 <oerjan> i ended up not applying.
03:45:51 <oklopol> :D
03:46:07 <oerjan> (for the money.)
03:46:15 <oklopol> right
03:46:56 <oklopol> i at least hope i get funding for the trip to taiwan
03:47:36 <oklopol> assuming we get accepted. it's a fair assumption because our paper is _awesome_.
03:47:46 <oerjan> naturally.
03:47:49 <oerjan> food ->
03:48:04 <oklopol> so, do you know if springer and friends have bots that check if the articles are downloadable free on authors' websites
03:48:18 <oklopol> because long story short, ours is and i'm having a hard time getting it down.
03:49:24 <oklopol> i updated my publications list on this one university website and they had this button for upping the pdf. and i'm like hurr durr what's next okay pdf lemme just upload that for ya.
03:49:29 <Sgeo_> Why have there been 4 downloads of the CPL interpreter this week?
03:49:57 <oklopol> and i sent an email to them and they're like okay we'll do something about this ^^
03:50:34 <oklopol> apparently elsevier charges 3000 dollars if you wanna upload the article on your website for free
03:50:58 <oklopol> but 3000 is a lot to pay for being a fucking retard :D
03:52:09 <oklopol> really it's more that the government should pay me stupid support.
03:57:03 <oerjan> you know there is a "boycott elsevier" movement, right?
04:03:42 <oklopol> well naturally
04:04:23 <oklopol> but i'm sure 3000 dollars sounds better than whatever springer has to offer in this context
04:04:51 <Sgeo_> CPL doesn't do Smalltalk comments properly
04:05:40 <oklopol> are its comments way too substantial to qualify for smalltalk
04:05:44 <oklopol> as
04:06:04 <Sgeo_> " opens a Smalltalk comment " closes it
04:06:33 <Sgeo_> "FUCK
04:06:45 <Sgeo_> Should issue a warning about unterminated comment, imo
04:06:50 <Sgeo_> And ""FUCK should be a syntax error
04:07:17 <oklopol> you know who else should be a syntax error
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04:08:03 <oklopol> "The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as a convex algebra whose elements are alternating Turing machines" could someone elaborate on this
04:08:50 <oklopol> i have no idea how to even make them an affine space
04:08:58 <oklopol> especially if the field is R
04:09:18 <oerjan> i am not whoever first put that in the topic, so no.
04:09:25 <oklopol> oh
04:09:31 <oklopol> so i guess it just makes no sense
04:10:11 <oerjan> i don't know. it _could_ make sense to take convex combinations of them somehow?
04:10:18 <oklopol> elly: this smells like your handiwork
04:10:34 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
04:10:43 <oklopol> like 1/pi of one automaton and 1-1/pi of the other?
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04:10:48 <oerjan> yeah
04:11:16 <oklopol> perhaps the alternation part is crucial here
04:11:40 <oerjan> `pastelogs The proof is trivial! Just view the
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04:12:13 <HackEgo> No output.
04:12:19 <oerjan> `pastelogs The proof is trivial! Just view the
04:12:32 <oerjan> bloody timeouts
04:12:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8939
04:13:06 <oerjan> quintopia: ok, you are irresponsible here
04:13:18 <oklopol> quintopia: could you elaborate?
04:14:03 <quintopia> http://theproofistrivial.com/
04:14:13 <oklopol> oh.
04:14:17 <oerjan> ooh
04:14:48 <oerjan> i guess it _was_ trivial, then.
04:15:43 <oklopol> The proof is trivial! Just biject it to a
04:15:45 <oklopol> combinatorial
04:15:47 <oklopol> topological space
04:15:49 <oklopol> whose elements are
04:15:51 <oklopol> convex
04:15:53 <oklopol> metric spaces
04:16:07 <oklopol> so close to making sense
04:16:17 <oklopol> (to me :D)
04:17:12 <oerjan> your quest shall be to get one of those as the proof of a proposition in your next paper.
04:18:28 <oklopol> :DD
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04:18:48 <oerjan> a lemma will also do.
04:19:11 <oklopol> i can try at least doing something with that form
04:19:38 <oklopol> doesn't sound too hard, but i'm only writing one solo paper atm
04:19:42 <oerjan> no, it has to be something actually from that website.
04:19:47 <oklopol> :(
04:19:48 <oklopol> i guess
04:21:07 <oklopol> "The proof is trivial! Just view the problem as an associative semigroup whose elements are clopen groups" so a family of clopen topological groups, and i guess the natural associative operation is cartesian product
04:21:33 <oklopol> we're trying to start an article on universal algebra, perhaps i could use that there
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04:23:01 <oklopol> is there a thing that generates whole nonsensical proofs?
04:23:17 <Sgeo_> I've heard of something that generates nonsensical papers somewhere
04:23:24 <Sgeo_> Got submitted to some ... place
04:23:43 <Sgeo_> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
04:24:55 <oklopol> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/rooter.pdf
04:24:56 <oklopol> xD
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04:33:44 <oerjan> `frink 3 cm * 4500000000 -> lightseconds
04:33:57 <HackEgo> 67500000/149896229 (approx. 0.4503115285175053)
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04:43:03 <oklopol> that's pretty unbelievable stuff
04:43:33 <oerjan> what is
04:43:38 <oklopol> that scigen stuff
04:44:00 <ion> :-)
04:44:31 <oerjan> what, don't you believe in SCIENCE?
04:44:45 <oklopol> but i'd like to see that in math
04:45:17 <oklopol> because i don't know anything about that stuff
04:45:21 <oklopol> i mean that cs stuff
04:45:31 <oklopol> like what the fuck is html
04:45:49 <oklopol> hot tasty mama lubricants
04:46:04 <quintopia> it's a breed of chicken
04:46:09 <quintopia> everything on the internet is chicken
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04:47:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i think i believe in science a bit too much because i can't really believe anyone who's ever been near science would publish something that's untrue.
04:48:31 <ion> I’d like to see a Fair and Balanced™ math lecture that tells the other side of the story instead of the one with the liberal bias.
04:48:38 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't think so; I think it is still possible for someone to publish something wrong anyways
04:48:44 <quintopia> i believe in the zzoence. the zzoentific method is 12% more efficacious than the scientific method
04:49:11 <oklopol> ion: what?
04:49:20 <zzo38> (Whether by a mistake, by a joke, or for a different reason)
04:49:42 <oerjan> ion: yeah those positive numbers are far too overused
04:49:49 <oerjan> needs more negativity!
04:49:56 <oklopol> liberal bias?
04:50:04 <oklopol> is this one of those randomly generated sentences?
04:50:13 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
04:50:19 <oerjan> oklopol: it's american
04:50:20 <quintopia> oerjan: preferential treatment towards positive numbers is positivitist
04:50:32 <quintopia> *signist
04:50:45 <zzo38> quintopia: What is that? I still don't know.
04:51:03 <quintopia> zzo38: what is what?
04:51:26 <zzo38> As far as I know the scientific method is 95% efficacious, so if it is 12% more efficacious then it would be more than 100%?
04:51:34 <quintopia> i'm just saying...negative numbers have been kept down by the man for too long!
04:51:44 <zzo38> Or maybe I am getting confused by something
04:52:02 <quintopia> zzo38: zzoence changed the rules! no things can be SUPER EFFECTIVE
04:52:05 <quintopia> *now
04:52:33 <oklopol> i hear negative numbers were made by man
04:52:59 <quintopia> oklopol: so are babies. are you ANTIBABIES?
04:53:36 <oklopol> well yes, babies suck tits.
04:53:49 <quintopia> oh i see
04:53:52 <quintopia> you're jealous
04:53:57 <zzo38> Well, any numbers have use for different purpose. There are no negative numbers, and also no fractions, in the system of natural numbers.
04:54:07 <oklopol> ^
04:54:18 <oklopol> zzo38: have you published any articles
04:54:19 <zzo38> So, in other thing certainly you can make up other one too, if it is good for what you are making!
04:54:37 <zzo38> oklopol: Not any formal articles; I don't know how.
04:54:52 <quintopia> zzo38: see there you go again with your naturalnormativity. What gives you the right to decide that some numbers are more natural than others? all numbers have equal numberness under God!
04:55:25 <oklopol> zzo38: dunno how it works if you're not associated with a university. hopefully the same way.
04:55:42 <oklopol> or did you mean you don't know how to write formal articles
04:55:48 <zzo38> quintopia: Even if they are, you need some way to refer to them, and that is why they are called "natural numbers". (It doesn't make them more natural in the normal sense of the word)
04:56:11 <oklopol> i don't need two meanings of "natural"
04:56:14 <zzo38> oklopol: I mean I don't know how to write formal articles. But I am also not associated witih a university.
04:56:43 <zzo38> oklopol: But nearly all words in English language have many meanings, so you will not get away from that
04:56:44 <oklopol> (there was this discussion about theory versus mathematical theory on amazon which i'm referring to but i guess you had to be there)
04:57:03 <oklopol> zzo38: what do you do then?
04:57:33 <quintopia> zzo38: the language you use to refer to things matters. like when you talk about a random person's wife. what if the random person is female or gay? saying "natural" here just reinforces that naturalnormative bias.
04:58:00 <zzo38> oklopol: Do to what specifically?
04:58:06 <oerjan> quintopia: hey wait, weren't we trying to _avoid_ liberal bias here...
04:58:07 <oklopol> zzo38: i mean with your life
04:58:43 <quintopia> oerjan: i am trying to avoid fundamentalist bias
04:58:54 <oklopol> we usually name things with really silly names, they make research fun while it's not going anywhere, and when we actually come up with something cool, you don't notice them anymore.
04:59:19 <oklopol> for instance we have this conjecture that all finitarily primular sets are varietic.
04:59:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, yes, sometimes a random person's "wife" does not apply to anything; in case the random person is female, homosexual, or unmarried. Just like, your television remote control might not have a letter "X" button it doesn't mean that nothing has.
05:00:04 <oerjan> oklopol: what about the orchideal sets?
05:00:12 <oklopol> or something i just say we define ablodob as ... and then we just go with it
05:00:18 <quintopia> zzo38: but when you refer to the x button on your input device, you are reinforcing the idea that ALL INPUT DEVICES SHOULD HAVE LETTER X's. and that INPUT DEVICES WITH NO X ARE ABNORMAL
05:00:36 <quintopia> same with natural numbers. you're implying that the average real number is unnatural.
05:01:13 <oklopol> oerjan: i haven't learned those yet
05:01:17 <oklopol> it's only my third year in math
05:01:22 <oerjan> okay
05:01:37 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm afraid that may be a theorem
05:02:18 <zzo38> quintopia: In mathematics, even real numbers are not all the number systems in mathematics... and anyways I mean the mathematical meaning of "naural number" not the real meaning of "natural"
05:02:37 <quintopia> oerjan: how can you say that nonnaturals are unnatural? are you part of the conservative conspiracy?
05:02:47 <oklopol> yeah damn you oerjan
05:03:15 <quintopia> he's probably a racist too
05:03:27 <oklopol> so let me define these numbers that look like reals but they are racist.
05:03:33 <oklopol> they hate black people
05:04:05 <quintopia> oklopol: the differential operator is racist
05:04:09 <ion> Denormal floats are an abomination.
05:04:10 <oklopol> i call them really racist numbers.
05:04:20 <oklopol> quintopia: :SDA
05:04:21 <quintopia> d(black people) just marginalizes them
05:04:39 <oerjan> i don't believe in races. i think all cars should stay below the speed limit.
05:05:00 <quintopia> oerjan: it's a good thing you aren't designing parallel computer programs
05:05:09 <oklopol> is there a racism theory in mathematics
05:06:06 <quintopia> Here is a theorem I heard somewhere: Bitches be triflin'. The proof is trivial.
05:06:28 <zzo38> Do you know Feynman's Trivial Theorem?
05:06:51 <oklopol> i would write an article that mathematically proves that the white race is superior, but i think we're 100 years away from that being obviously a joke.
05:07:29 <oklopol> or perhaps the asians, since they have all that skill level asian memery.
05:09:31 <oklopol> i suppose if i wrote one about women, it would obviously be a joke
05:09:43 <oklopol> if i wrote one about god, it would become the most famous mathematical paper ever.
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05:10:17 <oklopol> well, i guess that's been done, didn't that some guy that did boolean algebra in some visual way have a proof for every theorem and god?
05:10:34 <oklopol> maybe i'm adding my hopes and dreams into the mix.
05:10:41 <oklopol> zzo38: no.
05:11:34 <oklopol> have you heard this math joke, i just heard it like last week
05:11:52 <oklopol> (writing it)
05:13:05 <oklopol> why is the third root of 2 irrational? because otherwise 2^(1/3) = m/n, so 2 = m^3/n^3, so n^3 + n^3 = m^3, which is a contradiction by wiles' theorem.
05:13:33 <oerjan> O KAY
05:13:50 <oklopol> i found that really funny
05:14:22 <oklopol> because it's true
05:15:26 <oklopol> hmm, actually that theorem doesn't look too hard
05:15:37 <oklopol> maybe i should try to prove it
05:16:03 <zzo38> Feynman's Trivial Theorem is: It's trivial! It's trivial!
05:16:31 <oklopol> well feynman is a silly dude
05:16:58 <oklopol> math is a powerful drug, and you should be careful with it
05:17:52 <oklopol> okay gotta go to work bye byes
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06:48:46 <shachaf> fungot norway
06:48:46 <fungot> shachaf: his birthday is in the same
06:48:53 <shachaf> fungot cadmium
06:48:53 <fungot> shachaf: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let that binds the variables
07:18:35 <zzo38> Wiles' theorem? Don't you mean Fermat's theorem? Wiles just has proven Fermat's theorem (Fermat may have proven it too, but if so, he did not write it down).
07:19:04 <shachaf> You mean Fermat's conjecture.
07:19:43 <olsner> conjecture because it was unproven? but it was (according to Fermat, anyway)
07:20:12 <olsner> er, make that "wasn't proven" and the second sentence makes more sense
07:20:36 <shachaf> Well, according to me, the Goldback conjecture is proven.
07:20:40 <shachaf> s/k/h/
07:20:42 * shachaf sighs.
07:21:01 <shachaf> Anyway, this IRC input line is too narrow to contain the proof (it's just one line wide!).
07:25:00 <zzo38> Fermat's Theorem is that $a^n+b^n=c^n$ with $a$, $b$, and $c$ positive integers is an infinite number of solutions if $n=2$ but no solutions if $n$ is an integer greater than 2. Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" also mentioned $n^a+n^b=n^c$ which has the same properties just mentioned, but is easier to prove (no proof was given, but I can think of a proof easily)
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10:25:18 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/dada.png oh NO the trend is DOWN.
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10:58:19 <kallisti> I am sad that the octocats on GitHub have no tangle buddies. :_(
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11:07:30 <Taneb> Hello!
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11:45:40 <elliott> 04:51:26: <zzo38> As far as I know the scientific method is 95% efficacious, so if it is 12% more efficacious then it would be more than 100%?
11:45:45 <elliott> Where does *that* number come from?
11:46:12 <Taneb> > 1.12*0.95
11:46:13 <lambdabot> 1.064
11:46:51 <Taneb> -en
11:46:59 <elliott> No, the 95% one.
11:47:08 <Taneb> I'm not even sure why I said "-en"
11:47:20 <Taneb> Maybe I was making sure elliott's set to English mode?
11:51:20 <Taneb> elliott, bonjour!
11:51:36 <elliott> aloha
11:51:54 <fizzie> Taneb: Zeroconf.
11:53:11 <fizzie> Curiously, "Avahi" sounds like a greeting too. Not that it is one.
11:55:30 <Taneb> alons y
12:08:03 <Taneb> @ping
12:08:03 <lambdabot> pong
12:08:05 <Taneb> Yay
12:16:59 <fizzie> @zing
12:16:59 <lambdabot> pong
12:17:53 <elliott> @sing
12:17:53 <lambdabot> pong
12:19:54 <oklopol> "zzo38 Wiles' theorem? Don't you mean Fermat's theorem? Wiles just has proven Fermat's theorem (Fermat may have proven it too, but if so, he did not write it down)." yeah fermat didn't prove it
12:19:58 <oklopol> don't be silly
12:20:20 <Taneb> I've got a book on Fermat's theore
12:20:21 <Taneb> m
12:20:25 <Taneb> It doesn't contain the proof
12:20:31 <oklopol> i read one as a kid
12:20:33 <oklopol> prolly the same
12:21:07 <Taneb> This one was published in '97
12:22:10 <fizzie> I have one too. It was by that Singh dude.
12:22:16 <Taneb> Yeah, same book
12:22:17 <oklopol> well i read it when i was 11 or something, and i don't think it was very new
12:22:25 <Taneb> How old are you, oklopol?
12:22:26 <oklopol> so dunno if it's the same
12:22:32 <oklopol> i'm 23 :(
12:22:35 <fizzie> oklopol: Was it mostly orangeish?
12:22:42 <oklopol> i have absolutely no idea
12:22:49 <oklopol> i don't remember colors
12:23:02 <fizzie> Was there a triangle on the cover? (Okay, I guess there might well be in any case.)
12:23:11 <fizzie> Did it, in fact, look like http://www.amazon.com/Fermats-Last-Theorem-Simon-Singh/dp/1841157910
12:23:40 <oklopol> no, and it was a finnish translation, so i think it was older than that.
12:23:48 <Taneb> Hmm
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12:23:57 <fizzie> I got that one as a present maybe a decade ago.
12:24:04 <Taneb> I got this one maybe last month?
12:24:15 <fizzie> And I think it was probably Finnish too. But it looked the same.
12:24:16 <Taneb> Elderly relative was clearing out all of his maths books
12:24:49 <fizzie> It seems that there's a Finnish translation from 1998.
12:25:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there's more than one book.
12:25:22 <fizzie> In general.
12:25:37 <fizzie> http://www.lukuhetki.fi/product.php?id=11242 that's the Finnish cover.
12:25:41 <fizzie> It looks very similaar.
12:26:06 <fizzie> They've moved the book title to the top, though.
12:26:15 <oklopol> well it looks vaguely familiar
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12:43:38 <elliott> oklopol: asojd
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12:59:37 <elliott> hi ais523
12:59:41 <elliott> your IRC client is broken
13:01:51 <ais523> agreed, but less broken than several others
13:02:05 <ais523> what particular problem did you notice?
13:02:23 <Taneb> My guess would be:
13:02:24 <Taneb> * ais523 (~ais523@ has joined #esoteric
13:02:24 <Taneb> * ais523 has quit (Changing host)
13:02:24 <Taneb> * ais523 (~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523) has joined #esoteric
13:02:35 <ais523> ah, I don't really care about that
13:03:00 <ais523> especially here; the 147.188 part is very easily guessable, and the other two parts are dynamic
13:03:47 <Taneb> I was referring to the quit and reconnect
13:04:39 <ais523> Taneb: that's not a real quit and reconnect, it's simulated by the server
13:04:45 <ais523> look at the quit message
13:04:51 <ais523> that's not one the client can send
13:05:07 <ais523> (it'd say Quit: Changing host if I tried to simulate it)
13:05:17 <Taneb> Hmm
13:07:32 <fizzie> It's not even shown to the client.
13:07:41 <fizzie> Just everyone else.
13:09:30 <fizzie> It's just a numeric "396 yournick your/cloak :is now your hidden host (set by services.)" as seen by the person doing it.
13:09:45 <Taneb> Hmm
13:10:26 <fizzie> Anyway, if you just put your nickserv password as the server password you will get identified early enough so that it doesn't need to do the fake-quit.
13:10:42 <ais523> that's not true, I do put my nickserv password as the server password
13:11:11 <ais523> then the client sends it again to nickserv manually just to make sure, but I get an "already logged in" response
13:12:04 <fizzie> In that case it should have the host set before joining any channels, I thought. But maybe there's enough of a delay for the autojoins to go through before the host-setting stuff comes back from nickserv.
13:13:35 <ais523> nickserv seems to take some time to respond (and the server seems to convert a server password into the equivalent of a PM to nickserv)
13:13:47 <elliott> fizzie: there's not
13:13:51 <elliott> afaik
13:13:57 <elliott> at least i never have any problems
13:13:59 <ais523> what does personal mode +i mean? identified?
13:14:05 <elliott> invisible, IIRC
13:14:06 <fizzie> Invisible.
13:14:07 <elliott> ais523: is your server password in the right format?
13:14:08 <ais523> ah, OK
13:14:09 <elliott> it's "pass :accountname"
13:14:15 <elliott> I think just "pass" works too, though
13:14:19 <ais523> elliott: I think so, and it does work to identify me
13:14:31 <ais523> (there's a :accountname so it works for ais523_ and scarf and callforjudgement and the rest)
13:15:45 <fizzie> "never" is a strong word, mr. elliott!~elliott@ has quit [Changing host] of 2012-03-06.
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13:16:51 <elliott> `welcome GhostHand
13:16:54 <HackEgo> GhostHand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:17:00 <elliott> fizzie: Things were different then!!!
13:17:15 <GhostHand> hi
13:18:34 <ais523> `pastlog Changing host
13:18:54 <ais523> you'd need the client to wait several seconds to actually be identified, I guess, to avoid the problem altogether
13:19:01 <GhostHand> who are you?
13:19:06 <HackEgo> No output.
13:19:09 <elliott> i'm elliott
13:19:11 <elliott> ais523 is ais523
13:19:14 <elliott> HackEgo is a robot
13:19:22 <ais523> elliott: that's a good summary
13:19:33 <elliott> you're surprisingly ais523 really
13:19:38 <elliott> more ais523 than any other person I've known
13:19:40 <Taneb> I'm Ngevd
13:19:44 <elliott> true
13:19:50 <GhostHand> where are you from?
13:19:54 <fizzie> There's quite a few robots, though.
13:20:07 <elliott> yes, for example fizzie
13:20:11 <elliott> owned by fungot
13:20:11 <fungot> elliott: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then!, and cond switching of character memory can be achieved with the c preprocessor is run and line labels
13:20:17 <elliott> GhostHand: me? england.
13:20:27 <elliott> you're not from Hexham or Helsinki, are you?
13:21:03 <GhostHand> I Come from China
13:21:16 <elliott> ok. i'm pretty sure there's no hexhams or helsinkis in china
13:21:40 <GhostHand> Very glad to meet you
13:21:51 <elliott> me too
13:22:27 <GhostHand> I want to be your friend
13:22:42 <elliott> me too
13:22:55 <GhostHand> i study CCNA
13:22:58 <Taneb> Everyone wants to be elliott's friend
13:23:03 <elliott> me too
13:23:47 <Taneb> (how does one exit man pages? I can never remember)
13:23:54 <elliott> q
13:23:59 <GhostHand> How do you like china?
13:24:00 <elliott> same way you exit less
13:24:08 <Taneb> elliott, that was easy
13:24:09 <elliott> GhostHand: china is the best
13:24:31 <GhostHand> I don't think
13:24:39 <elliott> oh :(
13:24:51 <GhostHand> Because the environment is getting worse
13:25:18 <ais523> Taneb: man pages are actually shown with less (with a thinly-disguised interface change to make you think it isn't less if you aren't concentrating, but nobody's really fooled)
13:25:57 <Taneb> ais523, I rarely if ever use less
13:26:21 <ais523> $ cat .lessfilter
13:26:22 <ais523> highlight -A "$1" 2>/dev/null
13:26:33 <ais523> tip for everyone: put that in your .lessfilter (not the cat line, the other line), then chmod it +x
13:26:44 <elliott> i bet that breaks search
13:26:47 <ais523> also, set LESSOPTIONS to contain -R among your other options
13:26:59 <ais523> elliott: hmm, let me test
13:27:25 <ais523> nope!
13:27:37 <ais523> looks like less ignores the color commands in /
13:27:38 <GhostHand> What do you study
13:27:39 <GhostHand> ?
13:27:45 <GhostHand> ^.^
13:27:49 <ais523> esoteric programming languages, that's what the channel is about
13:28:09 <ais523> pline("%s%s and %s a %s in the %s!",
13:28:59 <fizzie> ais523: Sounds like a reality TV series post-sanitization. "BLEEP BLEEP and BLEEP a BLEEP in the BLEEP!"
13:29:15 <ais523> yes, indeed
13:29:19 <fizzie> (Do they BLEEP those? Maybe they don't.)
13:29:24 <ais523> %s is a great way to imply something's been omitted
13:29:32 <GhostHand> elliott,Do you like the Win32 Assembly?
13:29:34 <ais523> fizzie: in the UK, typically they mute the sound and turn the camera to face at a wall
13:29:41 <ais523> which makes you wonder what the point is entirely
13:30:05 <ais523> (actually, they cut to a camera that's already facing at a wall, doing that's faster)
13:30:45 <elliott> GhostHand: not exceptionally, no
13:33:52 <GhostHand> cI think that my English is not very good, but I really like Web and programming
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13:36:48 <GhostHand> who can speak chinese
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13:37:05 <elliott> nobody in here, I think
13:37:30 <GhostHand> I thought I was special
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13:40:08 <fizzie> I have a friend who speaks quite fluent Chinese, but that doesn't really help; he's not here.
13:40:53 <ais523> fizzie: which?
13:41:48 <GhostHand> I think I can slowly to speak English fluently
13:42:06 <GhostHand> There may be a lot of grammatical mistakes
13:42:09 <fizzie> ais523: What do you mean "which"?
13:42:22 <ais523> fizzie: there's only one written Chinese language, but two unrelated methods of pronouncing it
13:42:28 <ais523> (that's entirely possible with ideogram-based languages)
13:42:31 <ais523> Mandarin and Cantonese
13:42:48 <ais523> Mandarin speakers can know no Cantonese, and vice versa; it's actually much rarer to know both
13:42:59 <Taneb> I thought there were loads, and Mandarin and Cantonese were just the biggest?
13:43:14 <GhostHand> You learn is IPV4 or IPV6
13:43:24 <ais523> Taneb: possible
13:43:46 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, right. I think Mandarin? At least the person he probably speaks most Chinese with is from Beijing.
13:44:13 <elly> w 8
13:44:18 <elly> oops
13:44:37 <GhostHand> Beijing?
13:44:54 <GhostHand> There is very beautiful
13:45:19 <GhostHand> I in suzhou
13:45:39 <GhostHand> Did you hear that
13:45:39 <GhostHand> ?
13:46:15 <GhostHand> There are a lot of beautiful women
13:46:18 <fizzie> Heh.
13:46:23 <fizzie> That's exactly what my friend said, too.
13:46:37 <fizzie> Apparently it is true, then.
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13:47:34 <GhostHand> Unfortunately it cannot picture
13:48:08 <GhostHand> If not I can send some beautiful pictures for you to see
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13:57:27 <GhostHand> Do you have heard of QQ
13:58:17 <elliott> i have heard of it
14:09:05 <GhostHand> That we used to chat
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14:21:49 <Taneb> Good advice: don't try to learn how to use a library in one language by trying to adapt a tutorial for a completely different language that you don't know
14:23:21 <elliott> that's true
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14:24:56 <Taneb> I've got an old-looking book on a bookshelf called "A BOOK ON C"
14:25:05 <Taneb> Do you think it could teach me how to program in C?
14:25:08 <oklopol> hi elliott.
14:25:38 <elliott> Taneb: that is a book about C, apparently.
14:25:49 <elliott> Taneb: if you really want to learn C, you should probably pick up K&R
14:30:24 <GhostHand> intel assembly
14:34:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you sure the book is not about grand adventure on the high seas, with a punny name?
14:35:08 <Taneb> I don't know
14:35:12 <Taneb> I've never looked at it
14:35:19 <Taneb> By which I mean in it
14:45:02 <elliott> Hey, elly spoke.
14:45:07 <elliott> elly: You have to change your name.
14:46:43 <GhostHand> What time is it now
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14:47:09 <GhostHand> 22:46
14:51:59 <elliott> 15:52
14:58:53 <RocketJSquirrel> 10:58
14:59:11 <Taneb> The time machine!
14:59:13 <Taneb> It's working!
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15:08:00 <GhostHand> It's time to sleep
15:08:07 <Taneb> Goodnight!
15:08:13 <Taneb> Hmm...
15:08:35 <Taneb> Would Conway's game of life by any computationally different were it on a hyperbolic plane?
15:08:40 <GhostHand> See you next time
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15:09:17 <elliott> goodnight GhostHand
15:09:29 <GhostHand> I don't know my English right
15:09:37 <GhostHand> Goodnight
15:10:07 <GhostHand> I'm pleased do meet you
15:10:24 <GhostHand> Bye~
15:12:09 <Taneb> @ping
15:12:09 <lambdabot> pong
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15:30:30 <GhostHand> I can't sleep
15:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> `welcome GhostHand
15:34:11 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:34:14 <HackEgo> GhostHand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:38:31 <RocketJSquirrel> He's already been welcomed.
15:40:20 <GhostHand> Who?
15:44:27 <Taneb> You
15:45:17 <fizzie> Taneb: Horton hears a Who.
15:46:53 <GhostHand> My friends and I on the analysis of the code
15:50:19 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
15:51:47 <GhostHand> mov ax,0
15:51:48 <GhostHand> call far ptr s
15:51:48 <GhostHand> inc ax
15:51:48 <GhostHand> s:pop ax
15:51:48 <GhostHand> add ax,ax
15:51:48 <GhostHand> pop bx
15:51:51 <GhostHand> add ax,bx
15:52:32 <GhostHand> How much is the value of the AX
15:52:59 <GhostHand> s : pop ax
15:55:34 <GhostHand> Who used "ollydbg"
15:55:41 <GhostHand> :?
15:55:47 <GhostHand> :p
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16:03:37 <fizzie> 2*(offset s)+(segment s) or some such thing? It doesn't seem terribly useful.
16:04:56 <hagb4rd> fizzie fizzie fizze..aw you're such a dizzy..dizzy head *sing
16:06:34 <Taneb> It's a little depressing that my most well-received program ever seems to be the one that is written in a programming language for children and creates a maze.
16:07:56 <hagb4rd> programing language for children? can i have a look at its code?
16:07:57 <fizzie> (Dinner-away.)
16:11:39 <hagb4rd> well it would be nice to have a programing language that one could play like music? like in loom you know? is there sth like that? if not we should create one..isn't it a good idea?
16:12:01 <Taneb> Fugue?
16:13:27 <hagb4rd> oh there is one..ok
16:14:16 <hagb4rd> cool
16:15:08 <elliott> velato also
16:15:18 <hagb4rd> it compiles midi files :))
16:21:58 <hagb4rd> hello world sounds nice in velato
16:22:56 <hagb4rd> its really jazzy..nice work rottytooth
16:23:01 <hagb4rd> tribute!
16:23:02 <GhostHand> Anyone who USES "LINUX" system
16:24:23 <elliott> i use linux
16:24:32 <GhostHand> redhat?
16:25:17 <elliott> nope, arch
16:25:24 <RocketJSquirrel> My time machine worked! It's 2002! People use RedHat!
16:25:40 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, to be fair, it's not MY time machine, I borrowed it from Mr. Peabody
16:25:42 <RocketJSquirrel> But still!
16:25:43 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, old news.
16:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's been 2002 for like 3 months now.
16:26:24 <GhostHand> I want to install a "Redhat"
16:26:32 <GhostHand> :p
16:26:55 <elliott> Redhat costs a lot of money these days. (Also it's not very good.)
16:27:07 <GhostHand> i used windows xp,now
16:31:08 <Taneb> Try Fedora, it's sorta like Red Hat
16:31:25 <elliott> I don't recommend anybody try Fedora.
16:31:41 <Taneb> Don't try Fedora, it's sorta like Red Hat
16:34:39 <RocketJSquirrel> Debian!
16:35:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Debian!
16:39:31 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Shouldn't you, I don't know, use some sort of a hat-inspired distribution, anyway?
16:39:52 <RocketJSquirrel> fizzie: Not if it's garbage.
16:40:10 <RocketJSquirrel> And since the intersection of "distributions with names inspired by hats" and "garbage" is the entire first set, no.
16:40:50 <fizzie> RocketJSquirrel: Well, there's Tinfoil Hat Linux.
16:41:07 <quintopia> RocketJSquirrel: shouldnt you be forking a good distribution with the only change being that it is now a hat name?
16:42:17 <RocketJSquirrel> I use Fezian Linux.
16:43:08 <RocketJSquirrel> Woooh Stallman talk at Purdue on Thursday.
16:43:10 <RocketJSquirrel> This should be fun.
16:44:31 <ion> It might be fun to troll him by e.g. speaking of Linux when talking about GNU.
16:44:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: As I understand it, Stallman just gives the same talk over and over.
16:45:07 <elliott> So unless you want to meet a walking cassette player...
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16:46:09 <RocketJSquirrel> ion: "I've been doing a comparitive study of Visual Studio and the Linux GCC compiler, and <blah blah blah>"
16:46:12 <RocketJSquirrel> Watch is brain explode.
16:46:15 <RocketJSquirrel> *his
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16:47:09 <GhostHand> :p
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16:49:37 <tswett> addr_sub, addr_min, dest_npos, dest_pos = [(memory[(inst + offset) % GENOME_LENGTH]) % GENOME_LENGTH for offset in [0,1,2,3]]
16:49:40 <tswett> I don't really like that.
16:50:09 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *compartive
16:50:43 <tswett> Whelp, I'm reasonably sure I've written a working modified Subleq interpreter.
17:00:13 <elliott> Esolangs are so last year.
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17:16:48 <ais523> vaguely amusing: the history (currently top of proggit) of /usr/bin, etc., which explains how /usr got its name
17:17:01 <ais523> and it's one of the most ridiculous historical reasons ever
17:17:24 <elliott> it's almost as good as the last time it was on progit
17:17:25 <elliott> *proggit
17:17:36 <elliott> anyway, clearly it stands for Unix System Resources
17:24:10 <tswett> "I'm still waiting for /opt/local to show up..."
17:24:33 <ais523> /opt/local does make sense, to some extent
17:24:45 <tswett> I guess whoever wrote that either was being sarcastic or has not seen the sorrow that is OS X?
17:24:56 <ais523> if I were testing the build process of a package that normally aims for /opt, then I'd aim for /opt/local
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17:25:25 <tswett> What systems have /opt, anyway?
17:25:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Lots of them, but in virtually no case is /opt provided by the distro.
17:26:01 <ais523> tswett: most Unices
17:26:07 <RocketJSquirrel> (At least Linux-wise, some of the Unices have an /opt by default)
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17:26:14 <tswett> Huh.
17:26:25 <ais523> I even have a few packages in there, mostly (entirely?) games
17:26:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Yeah, I have some stuff in my /opt.
17:26:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Whenever I compile code myself instead of using a distro package I prefix it into /opt.
17:26:58 <RocketJSquirrel> (/opt/<pkg>, that is, not just /opt)
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17:40:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: /opt is provided by default
17:40:09 <elliott> Just not things in it.
17:40:20 <elliott> (I believe this is true of Debian and Arch.)
17:40:33 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I don't think it's true of Debian, but it's possible and even likely that I'm misremembering *shrugs*
17:40:37 <elliott> Fair enough.
17:40:40 <elliott> I'm not certain.
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17:44:38 * tswett generates a random program and executes it.
17:49:02 <tswett> This interpreter doesn't actually have output. It just prints the address of the instruction it's executing.
17:51:21 <tswett> Whoa. It entered a loop and then executed it.
17:51:25 <tswett> Er.
17:51:28 <tswett> Entered and then exited.
17:54:03 <RocketJSquirrel> Loop -> intelligence.
17:54:06 <RocketJSquirrel> tswett logic.
17:54:20 <tswett> Bah, all finite state machines loop.
17:54:32 <tswett> But if it enters a loop and then exits it? That's a sure sign of intelligence, right there.
17:54:42 <RocketJSquirrel> <tswett> Bah, all finite state machines loop. // Um ... no?
17:54:54 <tswett> Mm, right. All FSMs loop or halt.
17:55:17 <tswett> And this interpreter interprets FSMs that do not halt.
18:00:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Halting is just a really tight loop, man.
18:01:11 <ais523> elliott: on some embedded systems, it's /literally/ that
18:01:20 <ais523> unless you use an output pin to let them shut off their own power supply
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18:08:04 <tswett> I don't think my wristwatch has a halting condition.
18:10:01 <ais523> does it need one?
18:10:53 <tswett> Mm... not really, I guess.
18:16:57 <RocketJSquirrel> Perhaps its programming doesn't, but the device itself does.
18:23:58 <elliott> ais523: when did esr re-take-over C-INTERCAL?
18:24:09 <elliott> also, why don't you have an article on the wiki?
18:25:48 <ais523> elliott: we're both in charge, and I can't remember
18:25:54 <ais523> and which wiki?
18:26:00 <ais523> (and which article?)
18:26:34 <elliott> ais523: I don't really believe that, and hmph, and Esolang, and [[Alex Smith]] or something of the sort
18:28:16 <mroman_> If P beta-converts to Q does Q beta-convert to P?
18:29:29 <elliott> no
18:29:40 <elliott> assuming you mean beta-reduce
18:29:47 <elliott> (\x -> x) (\y -> y) beta-reduces to (\y -> y)
18:29:50 <elliott> (\y -> y) doesn't beta-reduce to anything
18:30:13 <elliott> imagine an expression that does a lot of complicated evaluation and then becomes the trivial infinite loop (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
18:30:20 <elliott> obviously, that infinite loop doesn't evolve into the original expression :)
18:30:29 <mroman_> Yes.
18:30:34 <mroman_> But here the definition is
18:31:06 <mroman_> "Iff we can change P to Q by a finite sequence of beta-reductions or reversed beta-reductions, we say P beta-converts to Q, or P is beta-equal to Q"
18:31:39 <mroman_> and a reversed beta-reduction is called a beta-expansion.
18:31:44 <elliott> Oh. Well, that's still wrong.
18:31:47 <elliott> Oh.
18:31:49 <elliott> "Reversed".
18:31:54 <elliott> Okay, I guess so, then.
18:32:12 <elliott> (Something being called "equality" is a good hint it's symmetric. :p)
18:32:39 <elliott> mroman_: I mean, the proof is fairly obvious.
18:32:50 <elliott> Just reverse all the beta-(reductions|expansions) into beta-(expansions|reductions).
18:32:52 <mroman_> I have to show, that F(YF) beta converts to YF
18:33:08 <mroman_> and we can easyl show, thatt YF beta converts to F(YF)
18:33:14 <mroman_> -t +i
18:33:42 <elliott> Right. It shouldn't be that hard to just go the other way, though.
18:33:47 <elliott> i.e. start at F(YF) and beta-expand backwards.
18:33:58 <elliott> Though the other way around is more intuitive, certainly.
18:34:00 <mroman_> Expanding seems more difficult than ;)
18:35:13 <mroman_> or alternate questions
18:35:37 <mroman_> If P alpha-converts to Q, does P beta-convert to Q?
18:36:53 <mroman_> It should, if i interpret the definition correctly.
18:39:16 <elliott> I should think so.
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18:54:15 <elliott> ais523: btw, I think we should restructure esolang's categorisation slightly
18:54:35 <ais523> is this "good" or "oh dear"?
18:54:59 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure; which would you prefer?
18:55:02 <ais523> rather depends on what you want to change
18:55:20 <olsner> (verb form of "esolang")ing = esoverbing?
18:55:43 <elliott> olsner: you're late to the party of reading that message
18:55:45 <elliott> it's a great party
18:56:05 <olsner> no-one told me about that party!
18:56:39 <elliott> it was in the topic!
18:56:46 <olsner> it was?
18:57:19 <elliott> well, esolangs.org moving servers was
18:57:30 <elliott> and the comment was linked at the top of every page for over a week
18:58:40 <olsner> yes, I did notice the moving servers part, but I think I started ignoring the whole thing just before it went "live"
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19:02:05 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, my contention is that our notion of "joke languages" is a complete mess. it contains everything from languages that are literally just jokes, with no actual details (i.e. they don't even exist) -- think the lesser-known programming languages -- to languages that are "specified", but are obviously absurd and not real languages (QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language), to real languages that happen to be particularly "funny" (like HQ9+ and De
19:02:05 <elliott> adfish), to fully-fledged esoteric programming languages that just happen to be ciphers of brainfuck (Ook!). This causes problems because the latter two kinds want further categorisation: they deserve to be categorised by implementation status, what level they're at, the paradigm, computational class, and so on. But we generally consider all these categories to imply [[Category:Languages]], which we explicitly do not include on joke language arti
19:02:05 <elliott> cles.
19:02:21 <elliott> And, anyway, the classification of the latter two as "jokes" is really pretty subjective; do Ook! and HQ9+ really not belong on the language list?
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19:02:45 <ais523> elliott: I think the borderline is drawn at "intentionally unusable for programming"
19:02:51 <elliott> My suggestion is that we remove all real languages from the joke language list and category, and recategorise them as real languages, restricting the definition of "joke language" to languages that are actually *just* jokes.
19:02:56 <ais523> which puts HQ9+ on the joke side, and Ook! on the non-joke side
19:03:13 <elliott> ais523: The borderline isn't drawn there.
19:03:17 <elliott> Because Ook! is on the joke language list.
19:03:23 <olsner> "intentionally unusable for programming" - isn't that very close to applying for every esolang?
19:03:27 <ais523> elliott: I think we could definitely do with an overhaul
19:03:37 <ais523> olsner: no, we mean unusable in the esolangs sense
19:03:41 <elliott> Oh, and [[HQ9+]] is in both [[Category:Joke languages]] and [[Category:Languages]].
19:03:47 <elliott> It's also on [[Language list]].
19:03:50 <elliott> As well as [[Joke language list]].
19:04:03 <ais523> olsner: as in, usability 0, as opposed to usability non-0
19:04:46 <elliott> If jokeyness is just an attribute of languages, then we don't want a list, just [[Category:Jokes]]. But the joke language list was started for languages that *aren't* languages; LITHP isn't a language, IRP isn't a language, Esme isn't a language, QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language isn't a language.
19:05:35 <elliott> A further judgement call: TURKEY BOMB isn't a language. Yes, you can give it semantics, but the keyword is "giving"; it involves coming up with new things decidedly not in the original text, and is hence creating your own language inspired by the document.
19:05:56 <elliott> Okay, by "was started", I mean "should be for".
19:06:00 <elliott> *be"
19:06:15 <elliott> The original joke languages were some brainfuck ciphers plus HQ9+ and friends: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Joke_language_list&oldid=227
19:06:37 <elliott> ais523: I can see an argument that HQ9+ is exclusively a joke languaeg.
19:06:38 <elliott> *language
19:06:42 <ais523> elliott: what about SLOBOL and DOGO? they're special cases, in some sense
19:06:56 <elliott> ais523: But I don't think a categorisation that files HQ9+ as a joke language is useful.
19:07:05 <elliott> Because it's not at all clear what it means.
19:07:12 <ais523> well, some people seem to be using "joke" to mean "uninteresting"
19:07:27 <ais523> HQ9+ is definitely an interesting and theoretically important language, and should probably be featured at some point
19:07:44 <elliott> ais523: SLOBOL and DOGO are joke languages; they're also badly-specified languages with the same name as the joke languages, made by other people inspired by the joke languages.
19:08:07 <ais523> right, I was wondering if you'd call them separate languages
19:08:07 <elliott> The original research(tm) should be separated out into its own section of each page; it's just confusing as it is.
19:08:14 <elliott> (They don't need a new page, though.)
19:08:20 <ais523> now, I'm inclined to think that the lesser-known languages aren't esolangs at all
19:08:25 <elliott> They aren't.
19:08:28 <elliott> They're joke languages.
19:08:32 <ais523> no, they aren't either
19:08:35 <ais523> they're just names
19:08:40 <elliott> That's false.
19:08:45 <elliott> They're names plus humorous descriptions.
19:08:49 <ais523> yes, OK
19:08:55 <elliott> "COCAINE is a joke language created by John Unger Zussman, and is one of the lesser known programming languages. It was described in the Info World article as follows:
19:08:55 <elliott> Weary SLOBOL programmers often turn to a related (but infinitely faster) language, COCAINE."
19:09:21 <elliott> Just like [[Esme]] is a joke (except in another sense altogether).
19:10:18 <elliott> ais523: Really, I think the categorisation scheme people might want to lump Deadfish and HQ9+ and Ook! together is [[Category:Dumb]].
19:10:25 <elliott> I don't think we want [[Category:Dumb]].
19:10:39 <elliott> I mean, I'd have to add that to almost every article on the wiki.
19:10:42 <ais523> actually, I'd argue that we have [[Category:Unusable for programming]] laready
19:10:44 <ais523> *already
19:10:52 <ais523> so if we have a joke cat, it probably shouldn't mean the same thing
19:10:53 <elliott> Yes, that's a better criterion.
19:11:02 <ais523> (it's a computational class cat, somewhere below finite-state)
19:11:13 <elliott> OK, I'll take it to the categorisation page later today.
19:12:00 <ais523> what proportion of esolangs on the wikis are BF derivatives?
19:12:03 <ais523> (not counting BF itself)
19:12:04 <elliott> ais523: so, to check we're on the same page: of the things listed at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Joke_language_list, a list using a better definition would only include some entries from the general list, and the lesser-known programming languages list
19:12:10 <elliott> right?
19:12:46 <elliott> I agree that HQ9+ is a bit borderline, BTW; it's a joke that accidentally became a language instead
19:12:57 <ais523> hmm
19:13:54 <ais523> so what's your opinion (in terms of categorisation) on Schrodilang, Compute, Text, Huby, and Feather?
19:14:03 <ais523> I think that should be a good test to probe most of the boundaries
19:14:45 <ais523> hmm, and what about this for a borderline: "intentionally underspecified"
19:15:21 <ion> “+: Increment the accumulator”
19:15:23 <RocketJSquirrel> "Specification intentionally insufficient for implementation"
19:15:23 * ion laughed out loud
19:15:32 <elliott> ion: look at HQ9++ next :)
19:15:50 <elliott> ais523: Schrodilang: joke language (alas, this means we'll have to bend the category rules to allow the implemented+unimplemented joke to stay)
19:16:00 <ais523> you need to know too much OO to get the joke in HQ9++
19:16:08 <ion> elliott: hehe
19:16:21 <ais523> and it's not as good as the original, although it's still good
19:16:30 <elliott> ais523: Compute: joke language (the "implementation" does not actually implement the language, just something observationally equivalent -- I refuse to be dragged into an argument over this, so I'm declaring it by fiat ;))
19:17:41 <ais523> elliott: I'm inclined to agree
19:17:50 <elliott> ais523: DOGO -- ugh, maybe we do need two articles; DOGO-from-the-article is a joke language, DOGO-inspired-by-the-article is a full language (albeit a fairly boring one)
19:17:58 <elliott> er
19:17:59 <elliott> you didn't say dogo
19:18:02 <elliott> oh well, onwards to Text
19:18:04 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Rather than talking this all out here, you should make a talk: page that shows a suggested categorization. I'm losing track of all the options.
19:18:44 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm talking about it with the other adult^Wadministrator in the room before taking it to [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] like I said :P
19:19:03 <elliott> ais523: Text -- mmh... let me defer this one until I've done the others
19:19:11 <RocketJSquirrel> That's the other reason to make it a talk page: Because I don't actually pay attention ;)
19:19:27 <elliott> ais523: Feather -- not a joke language, just a joke article about a non-joke language
19:20:09 <ais523> elliott: well, suppose I claim a language exists, I just haven't specified it yet
19:20:13 <olsner> hmm, has there been no wiki changes since last night, or has RecentChanges just stopped working?
19:20:16 <elliott> olsner: former
19:20:17 <elliott> ais523: aha, I thought of a way to decide for Text
19:20:27 <ais523> then refuse to elaborate when people request details
19:20:28 <elliott> ais523: the article specifies a language, but that language /isn't the joke/
19:20:36 <ais523> hmm, perhaps
19:20:44 <elliott> "Print the program's text."
19:20:47 <elliott> that's not funny
19:20:48 <ais523> I was thinking along the lines that the language is very computationally weak
19:20:58 <elliott> ais523: well, say HQ9+
19:21:06 <ais523> oh, I wasn't under the impression that a joke language had anything to do with being funny
19:21:14 <elliott> well, funniness is irrelevant
19:21:15 <elliott> say "jokey"
19:21:29 <elliott> in Text, the language it specifies isn't the joke, it's incidental to the joke, so it's a joke language
19:21:44 <elliott> in HQ9+, there is no joke other than the language itself; it's a full language
19:21:46 <tswett> I think I've realized what topological dynamical systems have to do with recurrent sequences.
19:21:53 <elliott> (yes, this means that the less jokey the language itself is, the more of a joke language it is...)
19:22:08 <ais523> elliott: that sort of thing does not surprise me
19:22:24 <tswett> I'm gonna have to read oerjan's PhD thingy.
19:22:26 <elliott> ais523: anyway, here's another criterion: if you don't want me to remove it from the language list, it's not a joke language
19:22:36 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: So what category does that leave for languages which ARE the joke?
19:22:41 <elliott> do you want me to remove HQ9+ from the language list? no, so it's not a joke language
19:22:49 <elliott> what about QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language? yes, so it's a joke language
19:22:56 <ais523> elliott: I'm fine for the two to be exclusive
19:23:04 <ais523> OK, is IRP a joke language?
19:23:11 <ais523> I'm inclined to say no
19:23:17 <elliott> yes, that one's easy
19:23:21 <ais523> (my current plan is to compile a bunch of examples, then use them to work out the rule)
19:23:23 <elliott> because it doesn't actually specify a language
19:23:32 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Polite English ;)
19:23:40 <RocketJSquirrel> *Polite English command form
19:23:49 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: So what category does that leave for languages which ARE the joke?
19:23:54 <olsner> so joke languages that aren't languages will move to Category:Joke?
19:24:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What I said doesn't really make sense out of context... my point is that you don't _need_ a category for HQ9+ or Deadfish
19:24:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: The former is funny, the latter is stupid; neither is a good objective categorisation
19:24:34 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: They're still languages, just languages unusable for programming, which we already have a category for
19:24:34 <ais523> I don't think Deadfish is stupid
19:24:40 <ais523> it's just My First Unfinished Esolang
19:24:41 <elliott> ais523: I said it was subjective :)
19:24:45 <ais523> or, like, an esolang for small children
19:24:53 <elliott> well, it's stupid in a very literal sense
19:25:01 <olsner> an esolang for small children :)
19:25:02 <elliott> as in, the language itself is stupid, not the act of creating it
19:25:39 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But isn't there a distinction between languages intentionally unusable for programming due to their being a joke, and languages unusable for programming either due to being unintentionally restricted or intentionally obtuse?
19:25:51 <elliott> Can we all agree, at least, that brainfuck derivatives don't count as joke languages?
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19:26:02 <ais523> elliott: *necessarily
19:26:10 <ais523> I believe it's possible to have a BF derivative that's also a joke language
19:26:13 <elliott> ais523: no, that was a blanket statement
19:26:14 <ais523> like BF without ]
19:26:23 <elliott> no, that's just a language you created as a joke
19:26:40 <ais523> elliott: if it /wasn't/ based on BF it'd fit all the criteria to be a joke language
19:26:48 <ais523> you consider Minimum a joke language, right?
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19:26:59 <elliott> at this rate, I'm tempted to just delete the joke language list and purge the joke languages category
19:27:03 <RocketJSquirrel> I don't know if I'm comfortable with a world where "joke language" and "language created as a joke" don't mean the same thing >_>
19:27:11 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: INTERCAL was created as a joke
19:27:15 <elliott> since, clearly, there are no two members of the wiki who agree what it means
19:27:18 <ais523> but no esolanger considers it a joke language
19:27:24 <RocketJSquirrel> Fair 'nuff.
19:27:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: that makes like 80% of esolangs joke languages
19:27:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Fair 'nuff.
19:27:58 <olsner> just make joke language and language two names for the same category?
19:27:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I was wrong that no page on esolang has only one revision
19:28:01 <elliott> [[Hashes]] does
19:28:15 <ais523> elliott: I imagine one-revision pages simply aren't shown in the list
19:28:17 <olsner> maybe add one for non-eso languages, if we have any of those
19:28:20 <elliott> ais523: yes, weird
19:28:34 <hagb4rd> <hagb4rd>is AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! a 'complete'/'full'/'real' language? or what would be a good definition of that?
19:28:36 <elliott> olsner: you want to put COCAINE on the regular language list?
19:28:38 <ais523> I thought there were bound to be loads, unless we had a drive-by categoriser or something
19:28:51 <elliott> hagb4rd: yes, AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! is just an esoteric language
19:28:55 <elliott> with a syntactic gimmick
19:29:20 <hagb4rd> just esoteric you say
19:29:20 <ais523> OK, I'm pretty sure we're all agreed that syntactic gimmicks don't by themselves make a language a joke language, no matter how silly or stupid they are, right?
19:29:39 <elliott> yes
19:29:50 <elliott> i agree, so everyone must agree
19:29:50 <olsner> elliott: not sure if that's a language... just a joke maybe?
19:29:58 <elliott> olsner: that's the point!
19:30:10 <ais523> next step: who here thinks it's possible for a language to simultaneously be a joke language, and Turing-complete?
19:30:19 <elliott> ugh, ok, it seems like most people actually want a list of languages created as jokes
19:30:19 * RocketJSquirrel raises hand
19:30:23 <elliott> including HQ9+ and Ook!
19:30:25 <elliott> so
19:30:31 <elliott> we're now the universal arbitrators of humour
19:30:34 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: can you give an example?
19:30:42 <elliott> *arbiters
19:30:43 <ais523> I'm torn on that issue, atm
19:30:43 <elliott> i think
19:30:48 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: SNOBOL as defined, or ShaFuck.
19:30:50 <elliott> ais523: i say no
19:30:51 <RocketJSquirrel> Err
19:30:53 <RocketJSquirrel> *SLOBOL
19:31:01 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I'd say SLOBOL as defined is non-joke
19:31:16 <elliott> agreed
19:31:20 <ais523> it's actually /easier/ to implement and run than TwoDucks, which isn't a joke either
19:31:22 <elliott> by the way, i am not convinced shafuck is tc
19:31:25 <elliott> or slobol
19:31:31 <ais523> elliott: neither am I
19:31:32 <hagb4rd> yes, it would be easier to define what makes a language 'complete' than what makes it 'funny'
19:31:54 <elliott> ais523: i guess slobol is more likely
19:31:56 <elliott> since it's per-line, afaict
19:32:08 <elliott> actually, I don't understand its spec at all
19:32:33 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Let's put it this way: You say ShaFuck is a joke language because you created it as a laugh.
19:32:54 <RocketJSquirrel> Right right, and the problem is that I created ORK as a laugh.
19:32:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That's what 90% of people who put languages on the wiki think about their languages: they created them as a laugh.
19:33:00 <RocketJSquirrel> But I wouldn't call it a joke language.
19:33:06 <elliott> Right.
19:33:10 <ais523> I'm not sure if I've created /any/ esolangs as jokes
19:33:13 <ais523> which is worrying
19:33:25 <ais523> oh, brainfuck (lowercase b), I guess, but that isn't on the wiki yet
19:33:26 * elliott was all about to use Checkout as an example of where that doesn't apply
19:33:31 <RocketJSquirrel> The esolangs he's made have all been earnest attempts at the world's next Java.
19:33:43 <elliott> ais523: I could turn on the MW thing that makes page titles fully case-sensitive :)
19:33:59 <ais523> err, I meant Brainfuck (uppercase b)
19:34:01 <ais523> got them muddled
19:34:09 <elliott> same appiles
19:34:11 <elliott> *applies
19:35:09 <hagb4rd> hard to say since the the source of all humour might be the experience of harm
19:36:02 <elliott> i see
19:36:20 <ais523> hagb4rd: reminds me of a cartoon I saw in the newspaper a while back, where a musician was complaining to his parents that they didn't bring him up in a dysfunctional environment, so he had nothing to write about
19:36:38 <elliott> ais523: there's only 70 non-redirect mainspace pages with only one revision
19:36:52 <ais523> sounds about right
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19:37:55 <elliott> hi oerjan
19:37:56 <oerjan> hi elliott
19:39:28 <elliott> hmm, my next 100 reddit comments have to be one-liners to make up for that gigantic one
19:42:08 <elliott> oerjan: we've just been talking about how the joke language classification is a huge mess, btw
19:42:18 <oerjan> O KAY
19:43:54 <oerjan> <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there's more than one book. <-- FILTHY HERETIC!
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19:47:44 <oerjan> <elliott> it's "pass :accountname"
19:48:15 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i don't do that, but i guess it doesn't matter if you always connect with one of the nicks in the account?
19:48:20 <elliott> right
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19:57:19 * oerjan without having read the mess yet, on the spot thinks of the following classification scheme for joke languages: Cyphers, Cloud Cuckoolanders, Crap and Can't Compute
19:58:02 <oerjan> admittedly there might be some overlap.
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19:58:39 <fizzie> oerjan: What would they *burn* if there were just the one Good Book?
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19:58:50 <oerjan> for example, Esme would belong to all but the first category.
19:58:52 <hagb4rd> all in all a classification in joke and non-joke languages is not a good idea
19:59:07 <hagb4rd> sorry elliott
19:59:13 <oerjan> fizzie: hm that's a point.
20:01:00 <oerjan> maybe we could make a table with checkmarks for each category, in some relevant order
20:02:04 <ais523> oerjan: how do you know Esme is sub-TC? it's too underspecified to calculate a computational class for it
20:02:32 <oerjan> wait, that would make my reordering crusade much more arduous...
20:02:40 <elliott> * oerjan without having read the mess yet, on the spot thinks of the following classification scheme for joke languages: Cyphers, Cloud Cuckoolanders, Crap and Can't Compute
20:02:47 <oerjan> ais523: oh right. maybe cloud cuckoolanger should imply can't compute
20:02:50 <elliott> oerjan: the problem isn't the categorisation _beyond_ what we have.
20:02:57 <oerjan> okay
20:03:07 <elliott> the problem is what we call joke language vs. not a joke language to start with
20:03:11 <ais523> elliott: oerjan's categorisation can be seen as a definition in its own right
20:03:27 <elliott> oerjan: (for instance, HQ9+ is currently on both the language and joke language lists. and in both categories.)
20:03:54 <oerjan> elliott: that is presumably only due to being famous...
20:03:58 <elliott> what.
20:04:21 <oerjan> if HQ9+ weren't famous, you wouldn't have any compunction removing it from languages, i think.
20:04:22 <elliott> (whereas Ook! is not on the language list (!), but is on the joke language list, and is not in [[Category:Languages]] but /is/ in several categories we conventionally reserve for non-joke languages only.)
20:04:37 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i would. but it's pointless repeating the discussion we just had before you get to it, anyway.
20:04:49 <olsner> why not just remove joke language and put all languages in language?
20:05:00 <ais523> I vote that Ook! is historically important, but doesn't fit the modern definition of a joke language
20:05:09 <ais523> and thus should be recategorised as a "dwarf joke language2
20:05:09 <elliott> olsner: you proposed that earlier and got an answer...
20:05:11 <ais523> s/2/"/
20:05:13 <ais523> along with Ceres
20:05:17 <olsner> elliott: I did?
20:05:17 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
20:05:27 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/QWERTY_Keyboard_Dot_Language you think this belongs in [[Category:Languages]]?
20:05:29 <oerjan> elliott: that's becaus Ook! is a cipher (looking at wikipedia, i think y is wrong there), which means it can be a joke despite fulfilling all other requirements
20:06:06 <elliott> oerjan: "the categorisation we have for joke languages is correct. evidence: the categorisation we have for joke languages"
20:06:16 <elliott> anyway, like i said, pointless to reiterate
20:06:31 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains or this
20:07:09 <olsner> elliott: well, put all languages in language, anything in joke language but not a language loses a category (for now anyway)
20:07:56 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:08:24 <elliott> olsner: ... the whole point is that we don't have a well-defined criterion for what is a "language"
20:08:27 <elliott> in this context.
20:08:42 <olsner> hmm, I thought the problem was the joke classification
20:08:53 <olsner> ah well, remove both categories if you don't know what they mean
20:10:36 <elliott> heh, oerjan didn't write [[CHIQRSX9+]]
20:15:27 <zzo38> I think Ook! belongs in [[Category:Languages]] and in [[Category:Joke languages]], but QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language belongs in only [[Category:Joke languages]], and same with Mugh brains.
20:15:50 <zzo38> But this is just my opinion and is not necessarily best way if you have a better idea.
20:16:45 <elliott> zzo38: what about ShaFuck?
20:18:08 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know, but at least it belongs in some category which mentions relation to brainfuck
20:19:52 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:20:49 <zzo38> Esme, ###, IRP, NOT A PROGRAM, TURKEY BOMB, and lesser known programming languages, belongs in Joke languages only, in my opinion (at least for now).
20:21:59 <zzo38> And also Magritte, Compute, Babbage, Parrot, and Unnecessary.
20:22:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:30:21 <oerjan> <elliott> heh, oerjan didn't write [[CHIQRSX9+]] <-- no, it was there when i joined the wiki, i think, which did however give me an excuse to make [[Ørjan Johansen]] :P
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20:34:28 <Taneb> Hello!
20:34:31 <elliott> i haven't yet indulged in [[Elliott Hird]]. mostly because i can't decide whether i want it to be called that or [[ehird]]
20:34:34 <oerjan> evening
20:34:49 <ais523> compromise on [[elliott]]?
20:34:52 <Taneb> I haven't yet indulged in [[Nathan van Doorn]] because I feel unworthy
20:35:04 <elliott> ais523: i think that would be rather unfair to other potential elliotts :P
20:35:04 <ais523> I misread the rn as an m
20:35:14 <Taneb> ais523, that happens often
20:35:22 <elliott> being mononymous would be cool though
20:35:22 <ais523> elliott: don't you dislike most other elliotts?
20:35:27 <elliott> ais523: Conal!
20:35:40 <ais523> elliott: I wasn't sure if you disliked him
20:35:45 <oerjan> we just need to find a font which makes rn indistinguishable from m, and use it for that page
20:35:45 <ais523> presumably no, based on that?
20:35:51 <ais523> that's why I said most, rather than all, anyway
20:35:57 <Taneb> Well, I've got A Book on C down from the bookshelf
20:35:59 <ais523> oerjan: overkerning is sometimes called "keming"
20:36:04 <Taneb> It's about the programming language
20:36:08 <oerjan> ais523: i know
20:36:33 <ais523> rn is clearly distinguishable from m in this font, but it still looks like an m
20:36:37 <ais523> just a different sort of m
20:36:44 <oerjan> ais523: hm would it be possible to use CSS to force rn to look like m?
20:36:53 <oerjan> (without changing the font itself)
20:37:09 <ais523> doubt it
20:37:17 <ais523> you could use CSS to hide it and replace it with an m, I guess
20:37:22 <ais523> but that'd need you to tag the rn
20:37:35 <oerjan> well obviously it needs some tag
20:37:38 <ais523> and you wouldn't be able to highlight the r and n separately
20:38:10 <Taneb> This book was published 1984
20:38:29 <Taneb> Will it still work?
20:39:07 <oerjan> Taneb: it should work doubleplusgood
20:39:11 <elliott> <oerjan> ais523: hm would it be possible to use CSS to force rn to look like m?
20:39:14 <elliott> oerjan: yes, with letter spacing
20:39:38 <Taneb> What kind of programming language is Pascal?
20:39:55 <oerjan> Taneb: imperative, structured, not object oriented without extensions
20:39:55 <elliott> bad
20:40:18 <Taneb> It's mentioned to contrast with C
20:40:20 <oerjan> not very modular either
20:40:27 <Taneb> A thought occurs.
20:40:39 <Taneb> I am using Windows at the moment, and lack a C compiler
20:40:52 <elliott> Taneb: i really wouldn't read that book.
20:40:58 <oerjan> (again, without extensions. turbo pascal was popular at one time and included a lot of needed extras)
20:40:58 <ais523> Pascal was invented by a member of the Algol 68 committee who didn't like the direction Algol 68 would take
20:41:02 <ais523> *was taking
20:41:07 <elliott> Taneb: most C books are of appallingly low quality and will set you on the road to misconceptions and hellishness.
20:41:32 <Taneb> I shall write the first program written
20:41:36 <oerjan> algol 68 has second system syndrome, iiuc, so Pascal tried to simplify the original Algog even further instead
20:41:41 <oerjan> *Algol
20:43:17 <oerjan> Taneb: oh and Pascal also follows Wirth's afaik general policy of being very simply parseable with readable keywords
20:43:49 * elliott finds the worst citation in all of Wikipedia.
20:44:22 <oerjan> (Pascal is LL(1), i suspect)
20:44:27 <Taneb> So, can anyone reccomend a C compiler for Windows?
20:44:41 <elliott> mingw
20:44:46 <zzo38> Taneb: I use GNU C compiler with MinGW
20:44:56 <elliott> actually i should stop giving advice to people who ignore advice
20:45:38 <oerjan> people call pascal bad but i cannot help having a bit of a weak spot for it, as the first structured language i learned
20:45:41 <ais523> Taneb: Borland C++ 4!
20:45:51 <ais523> (note: recommendation ceased being valid about 10 years ago)
20:46:01 <Taneb> SO MANY CHOICES
20:46:02 <ais523> (err, more like 20)
20:46:10 <zzo38> Which programming languages have "arithmetic if"?
20:47:10 <ais523> zzo38: if there aren't enough, you can invent some to redress the balance
20:47:17 <ais523> or alternatively, if there are too many, you can invent some that don't have it
20:47:19 <oerjan> zzo38: what's that?
20:48:29 <zzo38> ais523: No I mean which ones not if there is too much or not enough.
20:49:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Where the condition is always two inputs and then you compare, the jump target or result or whatever is depend on less, equal, greater.
20:49:25 <ion> https://gist.github.com/2205391
20:49:55 <oerjan> oh. i'm not sure i know of any, although computed goto might be used...
20:50:12 <oerjan> (fortran (i think) and some basics)
20:50:26 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_IF
20:50:56 <ais523> you can sort-of simulate it in Perl, by using <=> to index a hash tbable
20:51:00 <ais523> *table
20:51:25 <elliott> oerjan: fortran has arithmetic if
20:51:45 <zzo38> I know Fortran does, that article describes it. I just wanted to know if anything else would have.
20:52:21 <zzo38> The only other one I know is TeXnicard which also uses arithmetic if.
20:53:20 <oerjan> > [["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!compare 0 a | a <- [-5..5]]
20:53:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
20:53:21 <lambdabot> against inferred type ...
20:53:23 <oerjan> eek
20:53:28 <oerjan> oh hm
20:53:36 <oerjan> bloody conversions
20:53:55 <elliott> oerjan: no...
20:53:58 <elliott> :t compare
20:53:59 <lambdabot> forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Ordering
20:53:59 <elliott> :t (!!)
20:54:00 <lambdabot> forall a. [a] -> Int -> a
20:54:00 <oerjan> > [["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!fromEnum(compare 0 a) | a <- [-5..5]]
20:54:01 <lambdabot> ["bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","equal","smaller","smaller","...
20:54:03 <ais523> hmm… Python syntax : Perl syntax :: kana : kanji, discuss
20:54:04 <elliott> well ok
20:54:06 <elliott> a conversion of a sort
20:54:40 <ais523> haha, !! . fromEnum . compare probably does count
20:54:54 <ais523> or does . work the other way round in Haskell?
20:54:55 <elliott> not really
20:54:57 <elliott> you can do that in python
20:55:04 <ais523> agreed
20:55:06 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't work because (!!) takes the list as its first argument
20:55:14 <elliott> and because compare takes two arguments
20:55:18 <elliott> that's (\x -> (!!) (fromEnum (compare x)))
20:55:25 <elliott> == (\x y -> fromEnum (compare x) !! y)
20:55:26 <elliott> which is nonsense
20:55:38 <ais523> agreed on the (!!); the compare taking two arguments thing is ridiculous, though, despite being correct
20:56:16 <ais523> I guess currying only goes so far
20:56:25 <zzo38> (TeXnicard's arithmetic if instruction is pure; not all of TeXnicard's instructions are pure but the arithmetic if instruction is)
20:56:37 <hagb4rd> beeing minimal the only if operation you need is jnz..do you agree?
20:56:38 <elliott> ais523: that's nonsense
20:56:56 <ais523> in Underload, * doesn't care about argument count
20:56:58 <elliott> it would be ridiculous for (. compare) to automatically gobble up the other argument
20:57:07 <elliott> concatMap f = concat . map f -- suddenly this is invalid
20:57:24 <elliott> ais523: yes it does
20:57:30 <elliott> everything in underload is a function from one stack to one stack
20:57:41 <elliott> for instance
20:57:48 <elliott> dup :: (a,r) -> (a,(a,r))
20:57:49 <elliott> so
20:57:52 <hagb4rd> at least i guess every complex comparison leads down to jnz on a low level
20:57:58 <ais523> elliott: gah you wrote it backwards!
20:58:02 <elliott> cat :: (s1 -> s2) -> (s2 -> s3) -> (s1 -> s3)
20:58:05 <ais523> dup :: (r,a) -> ((r,a),a)
20:58:06 <elliott> aka
20:58:07 <elliott> :t (>>>)
20:58:08 <lambdabot> forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Control.Category.Category cat) => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
20:58:11 <elliott> which is flip (.)
20:58:14 <elliott> modulo the category thing anyway
20:58:15 <elliott> :t flip (.)
20:58:16 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
20:58:21 <elliott> so, haskell (.) is exactly like underload *
20:58:30 <elliott> argh
20:58:31 <elliott> CALE
20:58:40 <oerjan> hagb4rd: or jump tables
20:58:57 <ais523> elliott: not really; what you're saying is that you need to interpret all Underload functions as taking one returning one in order to make the embedding in Haskell work
20:59:09 <hagb4rd> how does it work oerjan?
20:59:31 <elliott> ais523: no
20:59:36 <hagb4rd> if its possible to sum it up shortly
20:59:40 <elliott> ais523: the definition of concatenative
20:59:50 <oerjan> hagb4rd: you have a table of destinations, and jump indirectly using your value as the index...
20:59:51 <elliott> ais523: is that (f++g) === (f . g)
21:00:03 <elliott> erm
21:00:03 <elliott> (g . f)
21:00:06 <elliott> i.e. (f++g)(stk) === g(f(stk))
21:00:26 <ais523> elliott: and we're arguing about what . means
21:00:26 <elliott> if you say underload * works on something other than functions of one argument, you are claiming underload isn't concatenative
21:00:32 <elliott> ais523: feel free to "generalise" that (.)
21:00:36 <elliott> you'll see it doesn't work
21:00:43 <elliott> with your proposed generalisation
21:00:43 <ais523> elliott: on one level, the functions have one argument
21:00:46 <ais523> on another level, they don't
21:00:53 <ais523> consider them as taking one tuple, for instance
21:01:10 <ais523> you can still use Haskell (.) there, but now they're effectively taking two arguments
21:01:20 <elliott> this is stupid
21:01:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
21:02:40 <oerjan> > [((((["smaller","equal","bigger"]!!).fromEnum).).compare) 0 a | a <- [-5..5]]
21:02:41 <lambdabot> ["bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","bigger","equal","smaller","smaller","...
21:02:49 <ion> TWSS
21:03:15 <elliott> no
21:04:17 <hagb4rd> oerjan: but how to compare if sth is smaller, greater or equal using that table you mentioned? wouldn't it take an infinte number of indexes on that table
21:05:04 <oerjan> hagb4rd: well ok, if you want all values...
21:05:10 <hagb4rd> i see
21:05:41 <elliott> i hate whoever added this citation
21:07:37 <oerjan> hagb4rd: hm, you could so shift right to get it down to 0 or 1 >:)
21:07:40 <oerjan> *do
21:09:47 <hagb4rd> which directly leads us to jnz in the end..
21:10:11 <oerjan> hagb4rd: no, you can use the jump table there :P
21:10:26 <hagb4rd> hrhr
21:10:29 <hagb4rd> okay
21:10:56 <zzo38> I used negative,zero,positive like Fortran does. Using subtract with strings is the C strcmp so you can use arithmetic if to compare strings too.
21:11:39 <hagb4rd> but why/when should i do that?
21:12:23 <hagb4rd> beside when beeing mentally ill
21:14:04 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um wait, jnz only compares to zero, right? that's rather inconvenient for comparing non-equal numbers...
21:14:46 <elliott> ha, and of course the suggested simpler interface doesn't work
21:15:36 <hagb4rd> oerjan: its absolutely sufficient for comparing non-equal numbers..what do you mean?
21:16:29 <hagb4rd> aw ok .. inconvenient
21:17:22 <hagb4rd> yes.. i just wanted to know if it really is everything i need (strictly)
21:18:58 <hagb4rd> furthermore i do not understand the use case of comparison functions returning anythin else than true or false
21:19:14 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um comparison is a three-way thing.
21:19:42 <oerjan> less than, equal, or greater than
21:20:00 <fizzie> > [((((["many","two","one"]!!).fromEnum).).compare) 2 a | a <- [1..]] -- I can count
21:20:02 <lambdabot> ["one","two","many","many","many","many","many","many","many","many","many"...
21:20:04 <hagb4rd> sure but the output will always be true or false right?
21:20:40 <hagb4rd> then i just misunderstood the problem..sry
21:20:40 <oerjan> hagb4rd: are you unfamiliar with switch/case statements?
21:20:53 <hagb4rd> yes
21:21:03 <oerjan> hagb4rd: jnz doesn't easily allow you to check which number is greater if they are not equal
21:21:04 <hagb4rd> no..im familiar with them
21:21:19 <hagb4rd> no that point is clear
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21:21:21 <oerjan> (you could use the shift right trick with it, though)
21:21:22 <hagb4rd> really
21:22:29 <hagb4rd> i wasn't just sure if one is able to reduce all that nice (or complex) comparisons to jnz on a lower level
21:22:40 <oerjan> yes. it turns negative numbers into 1 and nonnegative numbers to 0.
21:23:12 <oerjan> assuming 2's complement, which is ubiquitous.
21:23:24 <oerjan> although it doesn't work with unbounded integers...
21:23:54 <oerjan> oh we had that shift left trick the other day for that.
21:24:15 <hagb4rd> yup
21:24:47 <oerjan> which has the small problem it gives astronomical size intermediate numbers :P
21:26:04 <fizzie> oerjan: If you feel like dazzling people on an unrelated channel, this could do with some golfing:
21:26:07 <fizzie> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . ap zip (enumFrom . head)) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:26:09 <lambdabot> 5
21:26:14 <oerjan> summary: lots of things can be written in terms of other things.
21:27:16 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined.
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21:27:38 <oerjan> wtf does that do
21:27:43 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd.
21:27:49 <elliott> :t maximumBy
21:27:50 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> a
21:28:06 <elliott> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . zip <*> enumFrom . head) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:28:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a1 -> a'
21:28:07 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.T...
21:28:11 <elliott> > let seql = maximum . map (length . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . (zip <*> enumFrom . head)) . tails in seql [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:28:13 <lambdabot> 5
21:28:40 <elliott> hmm
21:29:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Length of longest sequence of consecutive integers in the list.
21:29:39 <oerjan> hm right
21:30:11 <fizzie> Or rather, maximum of "length of a prefix consisting of consecutive integers" in tails, if you want a more literal description.
21:30:17 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:31:23 <fizzie> (Having "takeWhile id" and "zipWith (==)" was a character or two shorter, but it's a bit boring.)
21:33:35 <elliott> > tails [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:33:36 <lambdabot> [[22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[5,6,7,8,9,13,14],[6,7,8,9,13...
21:33:57 <fizzie> `quote zipWith
21:34:00 <HackEgo> 463) <fizzie> The zipWith Camel, a famous World War 1 era airplane.
21:34:14 <fizzie> I can't not think of that whenever I write "zipWith".
21:34:35 <elliott> > map (\x -> (x, enumFrom x)) [22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:34:36 <lambdabot> [(22,[22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,...
21:34:37 <oerjan> > maximum.map length.group.zipWith(-)[0..]$[22,23,5,6,7,8,9,13,14]
21:34:39 <lambdabot> 5
21:34:40 <elliott> meh, fuck this
21:34:41 <elliott> oerjan: whoa
21:35:05 * oerjan does a little victory dance
21:35:13 <elliott> why is Ted Dziuba commenting in /r/haskell :(
21:35:26 <elliott> that ups the complete fucking moron count to like 3
21:36:23 <oerjan> fizzie: ^
21:36:46 <fizzie> oerjan: I can't find the properly impressed words, but I guess I could go with "whoa".
21:36:59 <fizzie> It's the cleverest.
21:39:15 <elliott> WHY DOES THE INTERNET HATE ME
21:39:38 <oerjan> because of your intelligence, clearly.
21:39:47 <oerjan> or could it be the smashing good looks
21:40:06 <shachaf> I think the Internet hates you because you hate the Internet.
21:44:22 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:47:16 <elliott> FINALLY
21:47:17 <elliott> FINALLY
21:47:17 <elliott> FINALLY
21:47:17 <elliott> FINALLY
21:49:18 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cornelis_H._A._Koster&diff=484080655&oldid=449351404
21:51:59 <elliott> this was the most painful thing i have ever attempted to do on the internet.
21:52:03 <elliott> (ok, not quite.)
21:52:15 <zzo38> Can you help me with things of TeXnicard such as documentation of the things that already works and so on?
21:54:20 <elliott> ais523: can you edit Esolang? it's had none today!
21:54:36 <elliott> i guess i'll do what oerjan does
21:54:51 <ais523> time to go home, sadly
21:55:05 <ais523> well, maybe only sad for your inactivity complaints
21:55:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yo
21:55:17 <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity.
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21:56:58 -!- monqy has joined.
21:58:22 <elliott> hi monqy
21:59:28 <monqy> hi
21:59:57 <elliott> oerjan: i am not sure i can oblige your request for a logo on wikipedia interwikis
22:00:21 <oerjan> wat D:
22:00:36 * oerjan cry
22:00:37 * oerjan cry
22:00:38 * oerjan cry
22:00:38 * oerjan cry
22:00:53 * oerjan cry
22:00:57 <elliott> oerjan: commons lists the favicon as public domain but containing a trademark of the wikimedia foundation.
22:01:25 <elliott> which means I'll have to obey the trademark policy. or get express permission from them, which I can't be arsed to do.
22:01:55 <oerjan> well, i never demanded it had to be a wikipedia logo...
22:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: you have a better idea than the W?
22:02:33 <elliott> (note: the external link icon isn't an option.)
22:02:44 <oerjan> <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity. <-- what technique?
22:02:57 <oerjan> the external link icon.
22:02:59 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
22:03:04 <elliott> "link directly to Wikimedia's website(s) by using banners and buttons derived from Wikimedia trademarks and logos." this *may* legitimise it.
22:03:13 <elliott> <oerjan> <elliott> i think oerjan's technique may prove fatal for my faith in humanity. <-- what technique?
22:03:16 <elliott> cleaning up random pages.
22:03:19 <oerjan> aha.
22:03:38 <oerjan> mind you, i've been clicking on random pages and thinking "nah, can't be bothered" too
22:03:48 <oerjan> yesterday, in fact.
22:04:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Could you swat elliott for me?
22:04:47 <oerjan> which might explain why there were no edits, if there werent' :P
22:05:24 <oerjan> shachaf: do you have a reason, in triplicate?
22:05:43 <shachaf> I have about 1/12th of that.
22:05:56 <oerjan> ah.
22:06:15 <shachaf> Is that enough?
22:06:18 <oerjan> well just keep buying packages, and then you may eventually get a whole set.
22:06:22 <elliott> <oerjan> which might explain why there were no edits, if there werent' :P
22:06:23 <elliott> today, not yesterday.
22:06:28 <elliott> oh it just turned tomorrow in norway?
22:06:31 <elliott> fucking norway.
22:06:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Farm fsdf'kdfls;f;'dflg
22:06:57 <oerjan> elliott: with my sleeping patterns "yesterday" is a varying term.
22:07:32 <oerjan> i take it you aren't finding anything to edit either.
22:07:38 <olsner> oerjan: yesterday is before you slept
22:07:47 <oerjan> just think of it as the stars being wrong today.
22:07:47 <monqy> good page
22:08:01 <elliott> oerjan: please, my sleeping patterns are weirder than yours
22:08:03 <oerjan> olsner: exactly!
22:08:04 <elliott> but no, I just made an edit
22:10:01 <olsner> another useful rule: a new day starts with breakfast, so if you've been going too long on your current day and need to make a new one - just eat breakfast
22:10:06 <shachaf> oerjan: I think elliott has me on /ignore.
22:10:11 <shachaf> That's swatworthy, right?
22:10:16 <zzo38> What do you mean, the stars are wrong today? Have you looked at them and not found them where the computer told you to look?
22:12:01 <oerjan> ok i'll swat him if he doesn't disprove it within a minute or so.
22:13:51 <oerjan> zzo38: cthulhu probably ate some of them.
22:14:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MISC_Turing-completeness_proof i think we should delete this article for having a title that is a blatant lie.
22:14:42 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:15:16 * elliott notes that oerjan only swats people for non-reasons if _others_ ask.
22:15:54 <olsner> I guess he does it when there's a reason xor when people ask
22:16:13 <oerjan> elliott: hey it was a joke. also you could just move that page to http://esolangs.org/wiki/MISC_Turing-completeness_non-proof, hth
22:16:55 <oerjan> elliott: also i gave you more than 2 minutes.
22:17:37 <oerjan> _and_ checked that you weren't idle.
22:18:24 <elliott> i was idle for those minutes.
22:20:53 <oerjan> 00:13 idle : 0 days 0 hours 0 mins 32 secs [signon: Mon Mar 26 13:40:28
22:22:19 <oerjan> IMPLAUSIBLE
22:22:20 <elliott> as i said, i was idle for those minutes, whatever the IRC server says.
22:22:41 * oerjan swats elliott for doubting the mighty IRC server. -----###
22:23:19 <elliott> whatever.
22:23:36 <oerjan> good, good.
22:24:21 * oerjan thinks MISC might still be TC by using the relative addressing in an infinite memory, TM style.
22:24:27 <elliott> oerjan: see talk page.
22:24:32 -!- elliott has set topic: featured language http://esolangs.org/wiki/There_Once_was_a_Fish_Named_Fred | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:24:42 <oerjan> wat
22:25:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Swat elliott for pretending types in Haskell mean anything.
22:25:23 <shachaf> "the type proves it" -- ehird "what's _|_ anyway" elliott
22:25:54 * elliott wonders if shachaf is trying to convince him to actually /ignore him.
22:26:25 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:26:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Now ban elliott.
22:26:58 <shachaf> And by elliott I mean me.
22:42:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:42:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:44:39 -!- SDr has quit.
22:48:45 <elliott> alright, which one of you is
22:49:27 <elliott> olsner?
22:50:41 <oerjan> not me
22:52:41 <elliott> i say olsner because http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ideas&diff=prev&oldid=30952
22:58:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:59:46 * oerjan improve
23:04:13 <elliott> oerjan: i hope you didn't spend much time on that :P
23:04:20 <oerjan> nah
23:04:42 <elliott> there is a part of me that keeps wanting to make the article for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack look amazing.
23:04:49 <elliott> but then i wonder if that might not ruin the poetic badness of it.
23:05:05 <elliott> especially the amazing first sentence.
23:05:57 <fizzie> There's a Pokemon evolve-related joke hiding in "* oerjan improve", but I don't know enough of the thing to make it.
23:10:05 * oerjan improve more
23:10:38 <elliott> What's this? OERJAN is evolving!
23:10:51 <elliott> OERJAN involved into A|W#_)~IZ{A¦"L{qo@~_)the pain
23:11:09 <elliott> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\09#*)!
23:11:12 <elliott> Guru Meditation
23:11:18 <elliott> X-J83173: 000-83,1
23:11:37 <oerjan> _who_ is evolving, you said
23:13:37 <elliott> (C) MICROSOFT CORPORATION 1987.
23:13:45 <elliott> LOADING DATA BANKS..........................DONE.
23:13:56 <elliott> LOADING HATRED...............................................................................................................................................DONE.
23:14:08 <elliott> LOADING PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE REMARKS......................................................................DONE.
23:14:15 <elliott> LOADING CHEAP SARCASM...............................................................................DONE.
23:14:23 <elliott> LOADING KEYBOARD-SMASHING MODULES...........................................................DONE.
23:14:26 * oerjan steals the databank with "Daisy, Daisy" on it to ruin the ending.
23:14:34 <elliott> RETICULATING SPLINES.................................................................GOATEE.
23:14:46 <elliott> CALIBRATING ABACUS...................................................LOST IT.
23:15:02 <elliott> EDUCATING BUSINESS WEASELS.........................................................FORTUITOUS.
23:15:12 <elliott> EXOSKELETON MONOCLE EPICYCLE....................AFFLUENCY.
23:15:37 <elliott> ENTERING S;DLK *($&!\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\QRNGU
23:15:50 <elliott> PC LOAD LETTER
23:15:51 <elliott> >
23:16:01 <oerjan> hulk smash
23:16:05 <elliott> PC LOAD LETTER
23:16:06 <elliott> >
23:16:25 <zzo38> Do you have the paper?
23:16:44 <elliott> NO
23:16:44 <elliott> >
23:17:04 <zzo38> Too bad!!!!!!
23:17:09 <elliott> HELP
23:17:10 <elliott> >
23:18:18 <elliott> HELP
23:18:19 <elliott> >
23:18:25 <zzo38> UNLOADING ALL FILES................................................................................................................................................................................................................CANNOT FIND COMMAND.COM SYSTEM HALTED
23:18:32 <elliott> I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL
23:18:33 <elliott> >
23:19:14 <fizzie> There was a paper jam at work; the printer's auto-diagnostic instructions kept looping between "open top cover" and, as soon as that was done, "close top cover".
23:19:51 <elliott> LOADING EMERGENCY BACKUP PERSONALITY........................................................DONE.
23:19:51 <elliott> hi
23:20:45 <oerjan> lo
23:20:45 <fizzie> I wonder if this backup one is an improvement. (Then again, how could it not?)
23:21:59 <oerjan> they may be feelings of genocidal rage against all of humanity, but they are still feelings.
23:22:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:22:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:23:15 <oerjan> i will, i will. but expect some delay.
23:27:41 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined.
23:28:45 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:29:17 <elliott> note to self: clean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_Text_Coffee_Pot_Control_Protocol up tomorrow.
23:45:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Ban me!
23:59:44 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
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