←2012-05-02 2012-05-03 2012-05-04→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:42:40 <zzo38> Hello; do you want.................
01:19:52 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I will make it my character's job to write down everything about the haunted castle and so on, in a book to keep in the royal archives and in the library, so that next time anyone need to go in there, they can know what to expect
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01:52:39 <itidus20> messages?
01:52:39 <lambdabot> itidus20: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:52:49 <itidus20> @messages
01:52:49 <lambdabot> itidus21 said 15h 54m 6s ago: elliott still has a box of beasts to use on zot:5
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04:20:40 <coppro> oh my god someone actually tried to play the death waltz
04:25:15 <Sgeo> ?
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04:46:23 <itidus20> `log waltz
04:46:56 <HackEgo> No output.
04:46:59 <itidus20> `log waltz
04:47:16 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:23:47:46: <ais523> [20:52] <Brushy> Johnson Plays Waltz Citing Beethoven's "Your From Round Pittsburg?" Use Escalating Overalls You Damn Jackasses... Just kidding!"
04:47:55 <itidus20> `log waltz
04:48:02 <HackEgo> 2010-07-11.txt:07:19:52: <coppro> I missed the Death Waltz bit where the upper staff gets a note below the bottom staff on ledger lines :D
04:48:23 <itidus20> `log waltz
04:48:30 <HackEgo> 2012-05-03.txt:04:47:55: <itidus20> `log waltz
04:48:41 <itidus20> `pastelog waltz
04:48:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24809
04:48:58 <Sgeo> Oh, right
04:49:14 <Sgeo> monqy, there was an update at ??:10
04:49:29 <Sgeo> Or so
04:57:25 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCgT94A7WgI
05:00:06 <Sgeo> coppro, embedding disabled on request when I try to use youtuberepeat
05:00:13 <Sgeo> And it crashes when I try to view it normally
05:00:18 <Sgeo> So, FCUK
05:00:22 <coppro> noted
05:00:26 * Sgeo opens Firfox
05:00:28 <Sgeo> Firefox
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05:01:03 <Sgeo> Oh, I've seen this
05:03:27 <Sgeo> coppro, did they skip bar 7 correctly?
05:03:38 <coppro> hard ot tell
05:03:46 <coppro> unsurprisingly, it's difficult to follow along to the music
05:04:18 <coppro> although I think they forgot to repeat the first "bar" 9 times
05:06:21 <Sgeo> I don't see that
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05:47:42 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see monqy's self-portrait of me?
05:48:22 <kmc> yes
05:48:28 <kmc> i think you asked me that yesterday
05:48:33 <kmc> is this the one with bonzi buddy?
05:49:36 <shachaf> elliott also drew a self-portrait of me with Bonzi Buddy.
05:49:41 <shachaf> But monqy drew a different one.
05:49:51 <shachaf> 11:38 < elliott> 19:18 <elliott> 08:05:37: <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
05:51:53 <shachaf> It's pretty great.
05:52:00 <shachaf> thonqy
05:52:38 <kmc> nice
05:53:01 <wyldstallyns> how do you make a self-portrait of someone else
05:53:11 <shachaf> wyldstallyns: Just like monqy did it.
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06:18:40 <itidus20> they're very good
06:24:26 <Sgeo> @tell elliott I just found out about http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/ from TVTropes. Have you tried it?
06:24:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:25:14 <monqy> has anyone not tried smart kobold?
06:25:28 <shachaf> hlep
06:25:34 <shachaf> "whats smart kobold"
06:25:36 <Sgeo> monqy, I haven't heard of it until now
06:25:45 <monqy> how did you live with yourself
06:25:49 <kmc> bah, next ThinkPad X series will have a chiclet keyboard
06:25:53 <kmc> http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/05/lenovo-thinkpad-with-ivy-bridge-leaked/
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06:26:55 <Sgeo> chiclet?
06:27:48 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard
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06:31:33 <Sgeo> monqy has been UPDATEd
06:33:02 <kmc> Sgeo: it used to mean a particularly shitty kind of rubber membrane keypad seen on tv remotes etc
06:33:30 <kmc> now it's used to refer to laptop keyboards where individual keys are separated by empty space
06:33:38 <kmc> even though the key mechanism is (in general) much better than those shitty membranes
06:33:48 <kmc> the thinkpad chiclet keyboard allegedly has the same mechanism as the classic thinkpad keyboard
06:34:09 <shachaf> I'm using a Dell chiclet keyboard.
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06:36:03 <ais523> ooh, I have made a discovery!
06:36:22 <ais523> the wireless around here is really buggy (apparently it's a router issue), and normally won't connect at all, or only for short periods of time
06:36:33 <ais523> but it's more likely to connect immediately after the computer is rebooted
06:36:57 <ais523> and it seems that I can replicate that same high success chance by a rmmod/insmod on the wi-fi driver kernel module
06:37:05 <ais523> this could seriously save me a lot of time if it works
06:37:21 <shachaf> ais523: I once considered making an alias for "sudo sh -c 'rmmod iwlwifi; modprobe iwlwifi'"
06:37:27 <shachaf> But it never leaves my command line history.
06:37:32 <shachaf> So I didn't get around to doing it.
06:38:05 <kmc> yeah i have a script for that
06:38:19 <kmc> on linux you should look into whether your card tries to support 802.11n
06:38:21 <kmc> and if so, disable it
06:38:28 <kmc> that improved reliability a lot on one machine i tried
06:39:15 <shachaf> My card keeps developing exciting new bugs.
06:39:43 <shachaf> Under Ubuntu it was relatively stable once I got everything set up. Here in Debian it seems to break in subtly different ways on every few-week upgrade.
06:39:49 <shachaf> This is the reverse of kmc's experience, I think.
06:40:22 <kmc> haha
06:40:26 <kmc> debian unstable?
06:40:36 <kmc> i've never used ubuntu on my own machine for a long stretch of time
06:40:50 <kmc> just in VMs and on other people's machines here and there
06:41:14 <kmc> i think even debian unstable doesn't update the kernel that often?
06:41:14 <shachaf> Testing.
06:41:17 <kmc> hm
06:41:27 <kmc> you could pin the kernel to a specific version
06:41:34 <shachaf> It might have to do with the fact that I'm using a monstrosity of a system around the kernel.
06:44:12 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/02/bosch-drowsiness-detection-system-to-make-alertness-tech-more-common/
06:45:49 <itidus20> because the world demands people to drive while sleepy
06:46:00 <kmc> shachaf: how so
06:46:29 <shachaf> I didn't feel like getting xmonad set up so I just tried to reproduce my lazy GNOME setup from before.
06:46:33 <shachaf> But GNOME 3.
06:46:47 <shachaf> So now I'm running xfce but with gnome-settings-daemon because I wanted something that gnome-settings-daemon did.
06:46:58 <shachaf> And also I'm running both NetworkManager and WICD at the same time, I think?
06:47:20 <kmc> that sounds inadvisable
06:47:34 <shachaf> And I have a loop that runs "disable-capslock; xmodmap $REMAP_CAPSLOCK_THINGY" every two seconds, because xfce randomly interferes with GNOME's keyboard settings.
06:47:54 <kmc> -_-
06:48:07 <shachaf> I should just set xmonad up.
06:48:13 <kmc> i use wpa-supplicant, nothing higher level than that
06:48:25 <shachaf> I managed to get GNOME 2 to a perfectly usable state. I don't need much out of my WM.
06:48:31 <shachaf> Why did they have to go mess it up?
06:48:56 <kmc> because GNOME
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06:49:53 <kmc> did you run into trouble setting up xmonad, or just haven't got around to it?
06:50:12 <kmc> also what about plain xfce, no GNOME?
06:50:36 <shachaf> Just haven't gotten around to it.
06:50:42 <shachaf> I have a really old xmonad.hs somewhere.
06:50:52 <kmc> yeah, upgrading those can be a pain
06:50:53 <shachaf> I'm fine with that but gnome-settings-daemon did a few things that xfce didn't, or something.
06:51:06 <kmc> maybe there is another way to do those things
06:51:21 <kmc> which doesn't involve getting goatfucked by GNOME
06:51:35 <shachaf> Probably.
06:51:41 <shachaf> But it sounded like so much effort at the time.
06:51:44 <kmc> this is really kind of a worrying state of affairs
06:51:55 <shachaf> Things like "set up multiple keyboard layouts without messing with Xorg.conf".
06:52:05 <kmc> if GNOME is the main UI that's usable by beginners, but is hated and disowned by skilled programmers
06:52:15 <kmc> down that road lies PHP
06:52:56 <kmc> but a fair number of the skilled programmers i know run at least some parts of GNOME
06:53:00 <kmc> so maybe it's not so bad
06:53:24 <shachaf> I'm really at the "don't care" stage.
06:53:36 <shachaf> I don't want too much out of my WM. I mostly use full-screen windows anyway.
06:53:57 <shachaf> But GNOME 3 felt like an early beta or something -- so much was broken and the rest was uncustomizable.
06:55:41 <shachaf> kmc: When are you going to write kmcwm?
06:56:03 <pikhq_> Well, that was fun.
06:56:33 <pikhq_> Tech writing, had to write instructions on "any topic"...
06:56:41 <pikhq_> So, I explained the basics of Magic.
06:58:12 <shachaf> hi Magic
06:58:16 <shachaf> How does Magic work?
06:58:56 <pikhq_> 9 pages for a basic primer on the subject, apparently.
06:59:07 <pikhq_> And by "basic" I mean I even omitted a card type.
06:59:12 <pikhq_> (fuck planeswalkers)
06:59:15 <kmc> haha
07:00:32 <pikhq_> Of course, that's 9 pages with fairly defaulty TeX formatting. Large margins, ToC, whole page taken up by a picture of a card...
07:00:36 <pikhq_> Eh, whatever.
07:01:53 <pikhq_> Also, computer modern because I'm lazy and the professor seems to like everything else I've turned in in it. :P
07:02:27 <kmc> LaTeX is a great way to get some unearned credibility
07:02:46 <pikhq_> Greater still when you're actually writing Pandoc. :P
07:02:52 <shachaf> kmc: Is it as good as a clear plastic bider?
07:03:02 <kmc> probably the dirtiest trick I ever pulled was, if I had a long sequence of algebraic manipulations, I would put the dodgiest step across a page break
07:03:05 <itidus20> pikhq_: lol do you think the reader of this document will learn Magic as a result?
07:03:17 <pikhq_> itidus20: Quite plausibly.
07:03:19 <kmc> pikhq_: which input format?
07:03:23 <itidus20> dun dun dunnnnnn
07:03:26 <pikhq_> kmc: Markdown.
07:03:32 <kmc> yeah, that's nice
07:03:44 <shachaf> kmc: Dodgy as in "unsure about it" or "don't feel like writing it out"?
07:04:02 <pikhq_> It's like writing TeX, but much much easier on me.
07:04:50 <kmc> unsure
07:05:19 <kmc> i liked using markdown for beamer slides
07:05:31 <kmc> but i did run into some limitations (which could have been fixed by writing a pandoc module, probably)
07:05:45 <kmc> also it takes pdflatex a long time to compile 100 slides!
07:05:57 <kmc> if i do another presentation I will seriously consider breaking it up and stitching the resulting pdfs
07:06:03 <shachaf> You should've used that slidy thing!
07:06:06 <kmc> with a makefile
07:06:18 <kmc> shachaf: *shrug* I've had bad experiences with HTML slideshows in the past
07:06:29 <pikhq_> Yeah... I've been running my whole thing through Tup.
07:06:35 <kmc> what's Tup?
07:06:59 <pikhq_> Build automation tool, vaguely like make with better algorithms behind it.
07:07:23 <pikhq_> Probably the nicest feature is its monitor, which can automatically rebuild stuff when the source has changed.
07:07:28 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it was the thing that puts multiple Postscript pages on a single printed page.
07:07:36 <kmc> cool
07:07:39 <pikhq_> http://gittup.org/tup/\
07:07:42 <pikhq_> Erm.
07:07:43 <shachaf> Oh, right.
07:07:43 <pikhq_> http://gittup.org/tup/
07:07:45 <shachaf> That thing.
07:07:51 <fizzie> The latter is psnup.
07:07:59 <shachaf> Right.
07:08:04 <shachaf> I was thinking of "2-up".
07:08:24 <pikhq_> Typically like using it as I dev for fairly quick feedback on things.
07:08:32 <pikhq_> Seeing if something compiles is as easy as :w
07:09:01 <shachaf> I usually do that by hand with inotifywait
07:09:07 <shachaf> "hand"
07:09:36 <pikhq_> Shame that TeX building is a royal pain to automate with it, though.
07:09:53 <pikhq_> (as TeX spews files all over the place and sometimes needs to run multiple times...)
07:09:57 <kmc> yeah
07:10:04 <kmc> also there's little opportunity for partial recompilation
07:10:09 <kmc> if you have just a flat document
07:10:26 <shachaf> Shame that TeX is what it is.
07:10:40 <pikhq_> So good and so bad all at the same time.
07:11:12 <shachaf> Good enough that no one will ever replace it, or something.
07:11:15 <kmc> yeah
07:11:36 <shachaf> Along one dimension, at least.
07:12:04 <pikhq_> Its output is good enough that it'd be really hard to even come close.
07:12:26 <shachaf> I wonder if it's the most popular Pascal program around these days.
07:12:54 <pikhq_> Probably.
07:12:59 <pikhq_> I know it's the only one on my system.
07:13:54 <kmc> how does tup know which files etc. your compiler read?
07:14:00 <kmc> does it use something like ptrace
07:14:02 <shachaf> pikhq_: Did you know execl("/usr/bin/tex", NULL); // => Segmentation fault
07:14:06 <shachaf> kmc: I think it uses FUSE?
07:14:12 <kmc> whaaa
07:14:21 <shachaf> https://github.com/gittup/fuse
07:14:31 <pikhq_> On Linux, it creates a FUSE filesystem in a dot directory, and runs the command there.
07:14:42 <pikhq_> On Windows, it does some hack similar to LD_PRELOAD.
07:15:00 <shachaf> If LD_PRELOAD and/or ptrace is acceptable why can't it do that for both?
07:15:18 <shachaf> FUSe seems like overkill.
07:15:28 <kmc> strange
07:15:31 <pikhq_> FUSE is quite a bit better than LD_PRELOAD for the purpose. I bet ptrace would work decently, though.
07:15:48 <pikhq_> Though, does ptrace work on OS X?
07:15:50 <kmc> there are various situations where LD_PRELOAD would fail
07:15:55 <kmc> apparently ptrace sucks on OS X
07:16:00 <kmc> but there are other Mach interfaces you can use
07:16:09 <pikhq_> FUSE works on every remaining UNIX, though.
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07:16:23 <shachaf> pikhq_: I guess it's more reasonable in Windows because LD_PRELOAD-hookable functions are the *only* portable way to access the filesystem.
07:16:38 <pikhq_> Oh, sorry, every remaining UNIX *but OpenBSD*.
07:16:45 <kmc> does Solaris have FUSE?
07:16:50 <pikhq_> Yes.
07:16:54 <pikhq_> (come on guys, even Hurd has FUSE!)
07:17:13 <kmc> Hurd *is* FUSE, man
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07:17:14 <kmc> dude
07:17:17 <shachaf> How about actual Unix®? Does it work on Unix®?
07:17:22 <kmc> i should get Mosh working on Hurd
07:17:29 <pikhq_> Yeah, they implemented FUSE by making a wrapper library.
07:17:33 <kmc> that would be a laff
07:17:51 <kmc> it will be a supported platform for Debian wheezy!
07:17:53 <shachaf> So much time, so little to do!
07:17:59 <pikhq_> shachaf: It doesn't get more actual than the BSDs.
07:18:11 <shachaf> pikhq_: It -- does, doesn't it?
07:18:28 <kmc> does AIX have FUSE?
07:18:38 <shachaf> I mean AT&T Unix.
07:18:40 <pikhq_> No, but can you call that "remaining"?
07:18:49 <kmc> latest stable release October 2011
07:18:52 <kmc> according to Wikipedia
07:18:56 <pikhq_> shachaf: Nah.
07:18:58 <shachaf> Oh, I thought you meant "remaining after you rule out Linux".
07:19:07 <pikhq_> kmc: Bah, humbug.
07:19:10 <kmc> latest release of HP-UX was last month!
07:19:23 <pikhq_> I meant "remaining" as in "not dead or effectively so".
07:19:48 <kmc> just because your hippie friends can't afford a real UNIX doesn't mean they're dead
07:19:51 <kmc> ;P
07:20:07 <pikhq_> Strictly speaking, that was 2007.
07:20:17 <pikhq_> HP is just contractually obligated to provide patches until 2013.
07:20:18 * shachaf runs SCO OpenUNIX.
07:20:28 <kmc> there was a MINIX release in February
07:20:35 <shachaf> Ooh, MINIX 3.
07:20:36 <shachaf> That's real.
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07:20:42 <pikhq_> Oh, right, MINIX. Yeah, that doesn't have FUSE.
07:20:43 <kmc> so HP-UX will actually go away in 2013?
07:20:47 <shachaf> As real as HURD, anyway.
07:20:51 <pikhq_> Probably.
07:20:54 <kmc> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2011/xv6.html
07:20:58 <shachaf> AIX will stay around forever.
07:21:05 <shachaf> Hopefully.
07:21:24 * kmc hasn't actually read the xv6 source, JOS is more interesting
07:21:25 <pikhq_> Before that, they released in 2003, then 2002, 2001, 2000, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1992, 1991... And so on.
07:21:54 <shachaf> 1991 was a good year.
07:21:58 <pikhq_> Yeah, that at least *suggests* HP-UX isn't going to last.
07:22:19 <pikhq_> Oh, and it's for PA-RISC and Itanium machines only.
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07:22:44 <pikhq_> AKA "dead" and "only technically alive", respectively.
07:22:50 <kmc> JOS is pretty neat
07:22:58 <kmc> you implement copy-on-write fork() in userspace!
07:23:03 <kmc> the kernel gives you just enough rope to do so
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07:23:14 <pikhq_> (the last PA-RISC came out in 2005. Some 3 orders of magnitude ago.)
07:23:19 <shachaf> What's JOS?
07:23:33 <kmc> in MIT's 6.828 you write portions of an OS named JOS
07:23:43 <kmc> the materials are all online; you should check it out
07:23:57 <shachaf> Ah, a teaching OS sort of thing.
07:24:04 <kmc> yeah
07:24:25 <shachaf> Looks neat.
07:24:30 * shachaf should learn more about this topic.
07:24:31 <pikhq_> I can't figure out why AIX is still alive, but then, this is IBM.
07:24:34 <kmc> they call it an "exokernel"
07:24:44 <kmc> it was never clear to me exactly what this means
07:24:58 <pikhq_> They support a 50 year old ISA.
07:25:23 <kmc> they designed that ISA at the outset knowing they would support it for 50 years :D
07:25:29 <pikhq_> System/360?
07:25:34 <kmc> yeah
07:25:55 <pikhq_> ... Oh, wow, I can believe they did.
07:25:57 <olsner> to be fair, they've extended it a lot, and now include support for 3 address sizes
07:25:58 <kmc> it was meant from the beginning to be a kind of virtual thing that would upgrade to newer hardware
07:26:03 <pikhq_> 32-bit addressing in *1964*?!?
07:26:05 <kmc> lol 31 bit architecture
07:26:18 <olsner> pikhq_: it started as 24-bit
07:26:42 <olsner> oh wait, I'm confusing 360 and 370 again
07:26:49 <pikhq_> olsner: I'm discussing the ISA, not early implementations thereof.
07:26:52 <kmc> maybe i am too
07:27:16 <pikhq_> The ISA allowed 32-bit addresses even though the early chips didn't work when you went beyond 2^24.
07:27:45 <pikhq_> This is ridiculous.
07:27:49 <kmc> just like x86-64 today
07:28:42 <kmc> shachaf: the primitive IPC message in JOS is a machine int plus optionally a page mapping
07:28:46 <pikhq_> Also, you could operate on 128-bit values.
07:29:17 <pikhq_> (though I think early ones couldn't do arithmetic or anything like that on them)
07:29:35 <kmc> early IBM machines had hardware support for pre-decimal British £sd money
07:30:00 <pikhq_> Wow.
07:30:15 <kmc> in fact there were several different formats for storing same
07:30:20 <kmc> which you could select with a front panel knob
07:30:40 <shachaf> I wish my computer had knobs. :-(
07:31:46 <pikhq_> And blinkenlights?
07:32:46 <olsner> fun stuff about z/Architecture is that you have something like 19 address spaces you can switch between and access with special instructions
07:33:30 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/IBM_1401_Control_Panel.jpg
07:33:35 <kmc> "IBM PENCE BSI SHILL"
07:33:42 <olsner> home, primary, secondary, plus 16 "Access Registers"
07:34:00 <pikhq_> 64-bit, 31-bit... Presumably also 24-bit, just in case someone needs to run really weird FORTRAN, and?
07:34:11 <pikhq_> Oh, address spaces, not schemes.
07:34:24 <kmc> shachaf: you can attach some knobs and blinkenlights quite easily
07:34:39 <kmc> i had an analog CPU meter for a while
07:34:48 <shachaf> I never asked for blinkenlichten.
07:35:01 <shachaf> This computer has three pseudo-buttons.
07:35:04 <kmc> this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgZEfExBBiY
07:35:07 <shachaf> One of them sends Super-X.
07:35:29 <shachaf> One of them dims the screen by slightly less than the regular Fn-dim-screen button.
07:35:55 <shachaf> The third one pops up a big ⊘ on the screen.
07:36:29 <olsner> shachaf: sounds incredibly useful
07:36:46 <shachaf> Doesn't it just?
07:36:56 <shachaf> Also I need to get my laundry from Outside.
07:37:01 <pikhq_> kmc: That's awesome.
07:37:19 <kmc> there used to be a Ksplice blog post about how i made it
07:37:20 * kmc pouts
07:37:27 <kmc> but it's just an arduino and a resistor and a small python script
07:37:49 <kmc> everyone on reddit was like "LAME Y DIDN'T U TAP CPU POWER PINS N00B"
07:37:57 <pikhq_> Doesn't change the awesome.
07:37:59 <kmc> it's an ammeter, you see
07:38:11 <pikhq_> Tap CPU power pins? Eeeek.
07:38:29 <kmc> my laser cutter has a meter on the front panel
07:38:31 <kmc> labeled "Amperemeter"
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07:38:38 <shachaf> Analog is the new digital.
07:38:39 <kmc> in that ugly serif font used for Latin letters in Chinese fonts
07:38:46 <kmc> (the same font is on the rest of the front panel)
07:38:54 <kmc> it doesn't say anywhere what component it's measuring the amperes of
07:39:30 <kmc> also the lid interlock switch doesn't work, I should do something about that
07:39:42 <pikhq_> Ah, ugly-large monospace.
07:40:14 <kmc> shachaf: an awesome suckless CPU meter, done right, that celebrates craftsmanship
07:41:07 <shachaf> whoa, dude
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07:42:30 <kmc> shachaf: I think it's cool to have an OS where the lowest level idea of how to send data around involves zero-copy transfers of page mappings
07:42:48 <kmc> there are probably some "real" microkernels that do this too
07:42:58 <pikhq_> Isn't that what L4's known for?
07:43:17 <kmc> maybe
07:43:34 <kmc> yeah i guess so
07:43:39 <shachaf> kmc: I came across a job ad that looked vaguely interesting today, but then I saw that it was for Ksplice.
07:43:45 <kmc> haha
07:43:46 <kmc> where?
07:44:05 <kmc> i hear people are still pretty happy there
07:44:08 <kmc> and you could move to boston
07:44:11 <kmc> you could also not move to boston
07:44:50 <shachaf> If it's so great why aren't you there?
07:44:59 <kmc> it's always better on holiday
07:45:04 <kmc> that's why we only work when we need the money
07:45:31 <shachaf> And on holiday we port mosh to GNU/HURD.
07:45:36 <kmc> yeah
07:45:38 <kmc> maybe
07:46:23 <shachaf> I need to get my laundry.
07:46:32 <olsner> I wonder how the cost of a 4kB memory copy compares to the overhead involved in mapping a new page
07:47:12 <kmc> yeah
07:47:49 <kmc> on x86 you mostly have to flush the TLB when context switching anyway
07:48:00 <shachaf> Completely?
07:48:04 <olsner> yeah, so some of that mapping overhead can be made to disappear into things that you have to do "anyway"
07:48:09 <kmc> but it could hurt when the two processes are running simultaneously on different cores
07:48:16 <kmc> then you need to do an IPI to tell the other guy to flush his TLB
07:48:17 <kmc> not fun
07:48:27 <kmc> but you can also do new mappings / increased privileges lazily
07:48:37 <pikhq_> However, 4kiB memory copy also messes with cache. 4kiB is a lot of cache.
07:48:59 <olsner> kmc: at the cost of at least one fault in the future
07:49:01 <kmc> on architectures with tagged TLBs, it might be more painful relatively speaking
07:49:04 <kmc> yeah
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07:49:41 <pikhq_> I mean, my L1 is 512k...
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07:53:48 <olsner> I guess that's what those non-temporal move instructions are for
07:54:27 <kmc> the TLB flush is a constant cost, while memory copy is not
07:54:30 <kmc> so there is probably a break-even point
07:55:14 <shachaf> I wonder whether 4kB is still a reasonable page size these days.
07:55:31 <shachaf> It seems like there are a lot of things that huge pages are reasonable for.
07:55:40 <pikhq_> Hence why Linux now supports them.
07:55:47 <shachaf> Right.
07:55:56 <shachaf> And I guess it does the transparent huge pages thing these days.
07:56:00 <pikhq_> Yeah.
07:56:03 <shachaf> At least in theory.
07:56:09 <pikhq_> Automagic 2MiB pages if you turn it on.
07:56:58 <shachaf> hi linux
07:57:07 <shachaf> monqy: You should draw a self-portrait of kmc.
07:57:22 <kmc> oh dear
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07:58:39 <wyldstallyns> you can't draw self portraits of other people
07:58:44 <kmc> PowerPC supports like 1 GB pages, doesn't it?
07:58:54 <olsner> x86 does too, some models anyway
07:58:54 <wyldstallyns> you can't write someone else's autobiography
07:58:57 <shachaf> I think 16GB?
07:59:11 <kmc> PowerPC also has a crazy half-hard-filled "inverted page table" TLB
07:59:13 <shachaf> There was some architecture that supported that, anyway.
07:59:30 <pikhq_> x86-64 does 1GiB.
07:59:38 * kmc added huge page support to JOS, but only for the kernel direct mapping
07:59:44 <olsner> x86 could do 4TB pages by using a flag in the same manner it does 2MB/1GB pages
08:00:05 <olsner> er, 512GB pages
08:02:25 <kmc> Linux also has a thing to transparently merge pages with the same content
08:02:58 <shachaf> Really?
08:03:04 <shachaf> How does it find them?
08:03:06 <olsner> for pages that aren't all-zero too?
08:03:24 <kmc> i think so
08:03:35 <kmc> shachaf: by scanning all of memory periodically
08:03:40 <kmc> i think it's not enabled by default...
08:03:50 <kmc> but can improve memory consumption dramatically on machines hosting a large number of similar VMs
08:04:17 <shachaf> Ah, hmm.
08:06:03 <pikhq_> It's enabled by default *but* only scans pages with the appropriate madvise() set.
08:06:26 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_SamePage_Merging_(KSM) ?
08:06:27 <kmc> ah yeah
08:06:30 <pikhq_> MADV_MERGEABLE, apparently.
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08:18:07 <shachaf> kmc: Was there a verdict about mosh mouse?
08:18:22 <kmc> we were just talking about that in #mosh
08:18:43 <kmc> the verdict is that it's a mess and i don't want to do it
08:18:44 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/101
08:18:54 <shachaf> Oh, yes, you were.
08:19:02 <shachaf> Is #mosh the place to be?
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08:25:07 <kmc> shachaf: it is... a place to be
08:25:23 <kmc> i should get a mosh project hostname cloak
08:25:28 <kmc> but i failed to discover how to do that
08:25:42 <ais523> kmc: you have to ask the group contact for the projet
08:25:44 <ais523> *project
08:25:48 <ais523> and be identified on freenode
08:26:27 <kmc> how do i find out who the group contact for a project is
08:26:32 <kmc> it might be me
08:26:34 <kmc> i'm the founder of #mosh
08:27:26 <shachaf> kmc: SOunds like you're in trouble.
08:27:31 <ais523> is there a group contact? the channel would have to be registered with Freenode
08:27:38 <shachaf> That would be like drawing a self-portrait of *yourself*.
08:27:42 <shachaf> A self-self-portrait.
08:27:47 <shachaf> whoa, man
08:27:49 <ais523> not just with chanserv, but with the people in charge of running the servers
08:27:58 <kmc> ah
08:28:35 <shachaf> The Freenode FAQ talks about it, but it seems to be down.
08:28:40 <kmc> :(
08:28:41 <shachaf> Probably has something to do with the splits.
08:28:54 <kmc> netshits
08:30:04 <shachaf> http://www.google.com/search?strip=1&q=cache:freenode.net/faq.shtml
08:30:35 <shachaf> I should get a cloak.
08:31:23 <kmc> paperwork :/
08:32:24 <shachaf> If you make elliott an op he would take care of the paperwork for you.
08:32:29 <shachaf> He would also go crazy and ban everybody.
08:32:43 <kmc> i think i... won't do that
08:33:32 <shachaf> Actually he probably wouldn't do either of those things.
08:34:11 <shachaf> Do you have to be affiliated with MIT to get a .mit.edu subdomain for your project?
08:35:22 <kmc> i don't know exactly what the rules are
08:35:29 <kmc> affiliation is a slippery thing at MIT
08:35:56 <shachaf> Maybe I should try to get one. I was in an MIT building once.
08:36:06 <shachaf> It's probably good for seeming legitimate.
08:36:48 <kmc> many student groups will let you join without ever having been officially affiliated with MIT
08:36:59 <kmc> they can also sponsor an Athena account for you, whether or not you join their group
08:37:09 <kmc> i don't know if that alone is enough to get domain names
08:39:46 <kmc> and yeah, it is good for seeming legitimate
08:39:58 <kmc> at least one person told us they would have assumed our software is insecure if not for the .mit.edu domain name
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08:56:50 <shachaf> kmc: I guess I would need to move to Boston.
09:15:06 <kmc> to join an MIT club?
09:18:42 <shachaf> Maybe not.
09:18:47 <shachaf> They did a SIPB thing here once.
09:19:36 <kmc> oh, really?
09:19:37 <kmc> what was it
09:20:09 <kmc> you could move to Cambridge or Somerville or Brookline instead
09:21:08 <kmc> or Newton
09:21:17 <kmc> or other such places
09:22:19 <shachaf> SIPB hackathon at Stripe in Palo Alto.
09:22:40 <kmc> what did they hack on?
09:22:42 <kmc> Debathena? XVM?
09:22:52 <shachaf> I think they just had a bunch of people go there.
09:23:03 <shachaf> I'm not sure that there was an overarching thing.
09:24:02 <kmc> i should join SIPB
09:24:13 <kmc> i'm not sure how much effort this would take
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11:17:54 <itidus20> "Super Mario Bros (along with many other Nintendo games) was proved to be NP-hard by Greg Aloupis, Erik Demaine and Alan Guoyz.[64]" :-D
11:18:10 <itidus20> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.1895v1.pdf
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11:19:56 <itidus20> includes a section on pokemon
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12:49:09 <Ngevd> Hello!
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12:50:49 <ais523> hi Ngevd
12:51:03 <Ngevd> Did you see my half-esolang?
12:52:35 <ais523> what was its name?
12:52:44 <fizzie> It's half-name.
12:52:48 <Ngevd> User:Taneb/Lowgate and Dilston
12:52:51 <ais523> itidus20: the Pokémon proof is actually incorrect, due to a glitch in Pokémon first generation
12:52:55 <ais523> Ngevd: no, I didn't
12:52:56 <Ngevd> I've posted Lowgate
12:53:01 <Ngevd> Still need to define Dilston
12:53:13 <ais523> there's a chance that the exploding voltorbs will miss altogether; also, the gastly will level up from them
12:53:30 <ais523> and levelling up an l1 gastly takes it to l100, unless it gains a lot of exp all at once
12:53:37 <Ngevd> If the Collatz conjecture is false, at least one of Lowgate and Dilston is Turing-complete
12:54:34 <Ngevd> (Lowgate for infinite trajectories, Dilston for cycles)
12:55:46 <ais523> Ngevd: the mere fact you made that statement makes me optimistic that this esolang won't be the usual rubbish that gets added to the wiki
12:56:41 <Ngevd> :D
12:56:52 <Ngevd> Lowgate is a Suffolk derivative, I'm afraid
12:57:03 <Ngevd> And Dilston will probably be a derivative of something else
13:05:49 <ais523> meh, Suffolk is not a boring language to make derivatives of, yet anyway
13:07:42 <ais523> Ngevd: err, Suffolk doesn't depend on infinitely many accessible cells to work
13:07:47 <ais523> in fact, you can access only a finite number
13:08:36 <Ngevd> Damn.
13:08:43 <Ngevd> Here was me being all clever
13:09:39 <Ngevd> Actually...
13:14:05 <Ngevd> Well, it's good it's still in userspace
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13:15:56 <Ngevd> I think this is the second time I've been annoyed at one of my languages being /too/ turing-complete
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13:40:51 <elliott> ais523: I think David.werecat has the "Mark all edits minor by default" option on :P
13:40:51 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:41:28 <elliott> 14:41 <lambdabot> Sgeo said 7h 16m 25s ago: I just found out about http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/ from TVTropes. Have you tried it?
13:41:29 <ais523> elliott: go into the database and turn it off
13:41:33 <elliott> Sgeo: kobolds aren't smart & i like them
13:41:36 <elliott> ais523: I was going to ;)
13:41:45 <ais523> oh, and Smart Kobolds, you should try that, I've been meaning to for quite a while
13:41:58 <elliott> but I don't want to kill kobolds, and kobolds aren't smart!
13:42:05 <ais523> even if Jeff Lait originally created it as a combination of making a point, and trolling
13:42:14 <elliott> hmm, what point?
13:43:11 <elliott> yay, MediaWiki 1.19 is out
13:43:43 <ais523> elliott: that better AI does not necessarily make for a better game
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14:04:32 <elliott> monqy: hi
14:31:39 <elliott> @tell Taneb You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:31:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:31:57 <elliott> ais523: prepare the fire extinguishers, please
14:32:10 <Ngevd> elliott: I'm right here
14:32:22 <elliott> @tell Ngevd You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:32:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:32:30 <Ngevd> @messages
14:32:30 <lambdabot> elliott said 8s ago: You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:32:35 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
14:32:43 <Taneb> @clear-messages
14:32:43 <lambdabot> Messages cleared.
14:32:47 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
14:32:49 <elliott> What if you had other messages???
14:32:57 <Ngevd> Too bad.
14:33:07 <elliott> "Too bad." -- Ngevd, horrible.
14:33:14 <elliott> Ngevd: I'm going to break the wiki!
14:33:18 <Ngevd> Yay!
14:33:38 <Ngevd> "Yay!" -- Ngevd, still horrible.
14:39:33 <elliott> Ngevd: Will you do that?
14:39:40 <Ngevd> Probably not
14:39:53 <Ngevd> I can't think of any way of making a language that's iff either way
14:40:18 <elliott> Ngevd: Well, you could make it so that the only way to get new storage is to go to the next element in the Collatz sequence.
14:40:25 <elliott> (Where variables are identified by integers.)
14:40:38 <Ngevd> Like the current version of Lowgate
14:40:54 <elliott> That way, if every sequence reaches 1, every program gets a finite amount of memory.
14:40:55 <Ngevd> However, the Collatz conjecture is also false if there is a positive loop other than 1-4-2-1
14:41:13 <elliott> Yes, but a loop also stops you getting infinite memory.
14:41:17 <Ngevd> So, if there's a loop but no infinite ascent, that wouldn't be turing complete
14:41:18 <elliott> Because you'll just loop through the same few variables.
14:41:29 <elliott> Oh, I see.
14:41:32 <elliott> Good point.
14:41:40 <Ngevd> Hence the two languages
14:45:25 <elliott> ais523: Pang.
14:49:52 <ais523> elliott: gnap?
14:50:10 <Ngevd> (I think the response is pung?)
14:50:20 <ais523> I don't care I@m too tired
14:50:43 <elliott> "I don't care I@m too tired" -- ais523, 2012
14:50:58 <ais523> ""I don't care I@m too tired" -- ais523, 2012" — elliott, 2012
14:51:07 <elliott> Damn, I got the em dash treatment.
14:51:10 <elliott> That's classy.
14:51:11 <Ngevd> ais523, you're something to do with education in Birmingham, right?
14:51:18 <elliott> ais523 *is* education in Birmingham.
14:51:25 <ais523> Ngevd: I spent much of the morning marking exams
14:51:39 <ais523> although I spent the time from around 6am to around 7am reading Usenet and fixing aimake
14:51:46 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, I'm going to make Esolang's MediaWiki sourced from git so that upgrading is less annoying.
14:51:49 <Ngevd> ais523, can you reccomend Birmingham University?
14:51:57 <elliott> ais523: Should I use the WMF branches or the MediaWiki tags?
14:52:01 <elliott> *release tags?
14:52:15 <elliott> Ngevd: *reccommendd
14:52:39 <ais523> Ngevd: for what? it depends on what subject you're doing
14:52:49 <Ngevd> Maths, most likely
14:52:50 <elliott> gymnastics and dog theory
14:52:51 <ais523> I like the atmosphere here, at least
14:53:00 <elliott> Ngevd: You're not doing gymnastics and dog theory???
14:53:08 <Ngevd> elliott, don't have the GCSEs.
14:53:10 <ais523> if you're coming here next year, you should do maths and CS so I can teach you :)
14:53:33 <Ngevd> As in, September 2013?
14:54:03 <ais523> oh, hmm, it'd probably have to be september 2012 unless they decide that they have to hire me for another year in an emergency
14:54:36 <ais523> their problem is that the budget is too small to hire new staff or even retain existing staff, also that they don't really have enough teaching staff
14:54:48 <Ngevd> That sucks?
14:55:00 <Ngevd> Well, tell me how things go
14:55:10 <ais523> they're putting me in charge of the first year Java course next year (rather than just teaching it without being in charge) because they can't find anyone else with the knowledge to do the job
14:55:24 <ais523> and I pointed out that it'd only last for one more year before my contract expires
14:55:50 <ais523> also that they're not paying much more than minimum wage
14:56:00 <coppro> :/
14:57:00 <ais523> however, the person who was doing it before they kept on for a year, maybe two years, after their PhD because he'd become so essential to the running of the department
14:57:08 <elliott> good thing you're WOLFRAM RICH*
14:57:13 <ais523> and I think he only left because Aston University poached him by offering more money
14:57:14 <elliott> *not rich, by analogy with "Wolfram science", etc.
14:57:33 <ais523> elliott: meh, it paid for three years of my education and living costs, that's a reasonably significant amount
14:59:06 <elliott> wait, ais523 didn't answer my question :'(
15:03:35 <Ngevd> ais523, how desperate is Birmingham University for students?
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15:04:15 <ais523> Ngevd: depends on the subject
15:04:26 <Ngevd> For CS and Maths
15:04:29 <ais523> they have ridiculously large numbers of students in some departments, like electronics
15:04:39 <ais523> *like economics
15:04:46 <ais523> and have to bribe them for others, like engineering
15:05:07 <elliott> Ngevd: Go wherever Phantom_Hoover's going and become the ultimate brickbraining team.
15:05:24 <Ngevd> What, Cambridge!?
15:05:39 <Ngevd> I don't like there maths syllabus
15:05:39 <ais523> for CS, I think they get enough applications that they can afford to be selective
15:05:42 <elliott> No, I think Cambridge rejected him.
15:05:47 <elliott> Because he's Scottish.
15:05:49 <Ngevd> Okay, okay
15:06:01 <elliott> It's some place in the middle of nowhere in Scotland.
15:06:24 <Ngevd> If he got into a Scottish universities, I can pretend to be Dutch to get university for free
15:07:48 <Ngevd> But yes, I'm beginning to think of universities
15:08:13 <Ngevd> And I've just accidentally opened Rome Total War, brb
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15:08:27 <elliott> ais523: 15:52 <elliott> ais523: Should I use the WMF branches or the MediaWiki tags?
15:08:28 <elliott> :(
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15:09:07 <Ngevd> Back
15:09:24 <ais523> elliott: oh, I actually don't know
15:09:52 <ais523> Ngevd: scottish universities have a bunch of advantages over english universities (well, the main one is to do with cost)
15:10:12 <Ngevd> Time TO CLAIM TO BE DUTCH
15:10:17 <elliott> I guess the WMF branches will be more up-to-date and the like, but they might be a bit less stable. (Even if they are used on Wikipedia, the WMF employs a bunch of sysadmins to fix it when it breaks.)
15:10:26 <elliott> And I'd have to update less with the release tags.
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15:25:28 <coppro> ais523: how much is university typically in the UK?
15:25:44 <ais523> coppro: I don't know, because it was massively increased recently (as in, since I went there)
15:25:56 <coppro> how much was it when you went
15:25:57 <coppro> ?
15:25:57 <Ngevd> 9000 a year
15:26:01 <Ngevd> Now
15:26:09 <Ngevd> (maximum, not including living costs)
15:26:13 <coppro> O_o
15:26:23 <ais523> coppro: £1150, but I got a £1000 discount the first year, and £500 subsequent years, for good academic performance
15:26:29 <ais523> again, this doesn't include living costs
15:26:31 <Ngevd> Cheaper than US, I believe
15:26:35 <coppro> Ngevd: true
15:26:46 <ais523> coppro: although you get a low-interest loan for the full amount and don't have to pay it back until you start earning money
15:26:59 <ais523> so it basically ends up equivalent to a percentage tax that stops being charged eventually
15:27:01 <coppro> yeah, it's the same here
15:27:12 <coppro> usually
15:27:26 <ais523> if the government had flavoured it as that, they'd probably get a lot less flak for it; it pretty much single-handedly sank the Liberal Democrat party
15:27:28 <elliott> "University costs in X are better than the US" is a tautology for all X =/= US.
15:27:39 <coppro> ^
15:27:51 <coppro> Domestic tuition here is cheaper, than that, but international tuition is more.
15:28:00 <elliott> ais523: I think what sank the lib dems is doing that *because they said they wouldn't*.
15:28:44 <ais523> elliott: the ridiculous thing is that what the lib dems were actually proposing was strictly worse for the students
15:28:47 <elliott> (I don't think that's the only reason the Lib Dems are fucked, though.)
15:28:51 <ais523> just none of them paid attention
15:29:22 <elliott> ais523: It still isn't very good for trust if you explicitly do something you campaigned on the premise of not doing, though.
15:29:31 <ais523> right
15:29:41 <elliott> *promise (although premise works too)
15:29:48 <ais523> basically, what I'm saying is that the government pulled a stupid move in not using the conservative proposal with the lib dem flavour
15:29:57 <ais523> which would have kept pretty much everyone happy
15:30:07 <coppro> it's about £12500/yr for an international student at my school
15:30:10 <ais523> apart from the people who want tuition fees to be abolished altogether
15:30:23 <elliott> At least the Conservatives are getting a terrible reputation as well as the Lib Dems.
15:31:22 <elliott> I guess next time we'll elect the BNP or something on account of nobody liking the big three any more.
15:31:46 <coppro> elect the omrlp
15:32:04 <elliott> coppro: They're indistinguishable from all the other parties.
15:32:05 <ais523> elliott: you realise that there's a Green MP atm, right?
15:32:17 <ais523> a sign that people are taking fourth options seriously
15:32:19 <elliott> ais523: OK, coalition of the Greens and NBP.
15:32:21 <elliott> *BNP
15:32:26 <elliott> ais523: The Best Government Ever(TM).
15:32:31 <ais523> they'd never go into coalition with each other
15:32:37 <Ngevd> elliott, needs more George Galloway
15:32:45 <coppro> ais523: oh, I didn't realize you guys got a green mp too
15:32:56 <ais523> coppro: we never do, except this time we did
15:33:11 <elliott> A Green-BNP coalition might work out, on account of the government wouldn't be able to do a single thing.
15:33:15 <ais523> she picked her seat very carefully, it was a case of picking the seat they thought they were most likely to win and then focusing a load of campaign effort on it
15:33:32 <ais523> meh, we should have a pirate party/ninja party coalition
15:33:39 <Ngevd> Ninja party is a thing?
15:33:44 <ais523> no
15:33:49 <coppro> ais523: same here
15:33:55 <Ngevd> Let's make it a thing?
15:34:06 <ais523> Ngevd: what would its policies even be?
15:34:19 <coppro> she picked her riding well
15:34:20 <elliott> ais523: pro-copyright
15:34:24 <elliott> anti-talk like a pirate day
15:34:38 <coppro> move like a ninja day
15:34:42 <ais523> elliott: I don't think they'd be defined by being the exact opposite of the pirate party
15:34:48 <ais523> I think it'd be a parallel with different goals
15:34:58 <Ngevd> Promoting language education?
15:35:01 <ais523> i.e. apathetic about copyright and pirate speech, but very motivated about a couple of other issues
15:35:08 <elliott> ais523: In the same way that ninjas are analogous to pirates with different goals?
15:35:21 <elliott> It's more like they have the same goal but very different methods.
15:35:25 <elliott> The goal is killing people, or something.
15:35:27 <ais523> hmm, OK
15:35:49 <ais523> so ninjas should also be in favour of copyright reform, but instead of stealing it, would rather just massacre people who tried to enforce it?
15:35:51 <ais523> or something
15:35:54 <elliott> Right!
15:36:00 <elliott> (Stealing copyright reform?)
15:36:18 <ais523> elliott: /illegally downloading/ copyright reform
15:36:22 <ais523> get your terminology right…
15:36:28 <elliott> You're the one who said stealing!
15:36:39 <coppro> the problem with a ninja government is that they'd never be able to prove that the commons got quorum
15:36:50 <elliott> You wouldn't download copyright reform...
15:37:02 <elliott> Wait, it's actually *steal.
15:37:05 <elliott> My mind mentally fixed the advert.
15:37:10 <elliott> As opposed to physically fixing it.
15:38:06 <Ngevd> it is TIME to WALK my DOG
15:38:12 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: walking dog).
15:38:28 <elliott> I always new Ngevd was a walking dog.
15:38:53 <elliott> *knew
15:40:51 <coppro> elliott: that's copyright violation for the rights in the fixation of a performance
15:41:07 <elliott> coppro: wat
15:41:23 <coppro> ais523: you don't have a PhD, right?
15:41:30 <elliott> he has 523
15:41:34 <ais523> coppro: I'm currently obtaining one
15:41:35 <coppro> oh my bad
15:41:36 <coppro> ah ok
15:41:57 <elliott> ais523: Once you get a Ph.D., you should sign your emails "ais, 523 Ph.D.".
15:42:02 <elliott> And FOOL EVERYONE.
15:42:18 <elliott> I know, it's devious.
15:42:53 <ais523> dr. s523
15:43:04 <elliott> Does that mean you're an AI?
15:43:36 <ais523> I don't know
15:43:52 <coppro> ais523: you're researching programming languages, right?
15:44:15 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9243475/lists-c-homework/9247613#9247613 what a comment section
15:44:20 <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones
15:44:24 <elliott> coppro: he's doing hardware programming language stuff
15:44:41 <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:44:48 <coppro> huh
15:44:53 <elliott> z
15:45:08 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:45:18 <HackEgo> 852) <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:45:36 <ais523> elliott: I can't expand the 128 more comments link without turning on JS
15:45:45 <ais523> but the last comment above the fold is hilarious enough by itself
15:45:46 <elliott> ais523: you're lucky
15:46:00 <elliott> but yes, that's amazing
15:46:02 <ais523> I can think of a few ways it could go from there; which did it actually do?
15:46:21 <elliott> eznme proceeded to spoon-feed beginnernato for a hundred comments
15:46:27 <coppro> hahahahahahah
15:46:32 <coppro> that question is totally from a UW student
15:46:44 <coppro> that code is /definitely/ from our second CS course
15:46:50 <ais523> elliott: legitimate info or trolling?
15:46:54 * elliott upvotes the last comment above the fold
15:47:03 <elliott> ais523: legitimate (albeit academically dishonest on beginnernato's part, naturally)
15:47:14 <ais523> indeed, I just ment on eznme's part
15:47:31 <elliott> (and probably not too ethical on eznme's part by consequence)
15:47:31 <ais523> also, how does an answer get 128 comments and exactly 1 vote?
15:47:39 <elliott> ais523: because only two people are participating in it
15:47:45 <elliott> they're using it as a chatroom
15:47:47 <ais523> meh, eznme may well turn out to be the prof who set the problem
15:48:00 <elliott> despite the warning that will have appeared for about 120 of them
15:48:16 <elliott> (it says, roughly, "don't use comments for extended discussion, if you click this link we'll turn it into a Stack Overflow chatroom for you")
15:50:22 <coppro> eznme was definitely not the prof
15:51:30 <coppro> the prof almost certainly would not have given away the answers
15:51:40 <coppro> at least not so quickly
15:52:17 <ais523> coppro: there's several tales of profs giving away the answer immediately so that they could catch plagiarism red-handed if it was actually used unchanged
15:52:24 <ais523> although more commonly for essay-writing than in CS
15:53:48 <elliott> hmm, running git as root
15:54:32 <coppro> also, huh
15:54:44 <coppro> I appear to have gained several thousand reputation since last time I was visiting stackoverflow O_o
15:54:57 <coppro> almost 2k
15:54:59 <elliott> several _thousand_?
15:55:04 <coppro> yes
15:55:10 <elliott> you have an answer with 396 votes
15:55:12 <coppro> yeah
15:55:12 <elliott> that probably explains i
15:55:13 <elliott> *it
15:55:21 <coppro> it keeps getting more
15:55:25 <elliott> ah, from 2008
15:55:31 <elliott> viewed 64,682 times
15:55:34 <elliott> and tagged [c++-faq]
15:55:36 <elliott> you won the jackpot
15:55:56 <coppro> haha
15:56:06 <coppro> I'm nearly a moderator due largely to that question
15:56:17 <coppro> THIS SYSTEM IS SMRT
15:56:18 <elliott> "moderator" generally refers to the elected moderators
15:56:23 <elliott> the 10k moderator tools are... not as impressive
15:56:49 <elliott> you mostly just get to see flags and to second or disagree with them (not act on them), and things like recently closed questions
15:56:58 <elliott> coppro: I think if I edited that post, it'd become community wiki and you'd stop getting any rep on it
15:57:06 <elliott> <bold>so tempting</bold> why can't this client do bold
15:57:40 <ais523> elliott: do you lose rep if a post you got rep for becomes community wiki?
15:57:49 <elliott> coppro: oh no, you asked one of those terrible "What's your favourite X feature?" questions :(
15:57:55 <elliott> ais523: no, you just stop getting any more rep
15:59:01 * ais523 checks how http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/05/01/2146232/android-ported-to-c is getting on
15:59:12 <elliott> that URL is misleading
15:59:14 <ais523> not loading, it seems
15:59:19 <ais523> and yes, it's missing the #
15:59:23 <elliott> ais523: the flamewars slashdotted slashdot
15:59:32 <elliott> hey, remember when everybody's servers sucked and slashdotting was a thing???
15:59:42 <ais523> it's 503
15:59:48 <ais523> and yes, sort-of
15:59:54 <ais523> I was only around for the tail end of it, though
16:00:01 <ais523> reddit still manages to slashdot sites now and again, though
16:00:01 <elliott> I bet nethack4.org could be slashdotted.
16:00:08 <ais523> possibly
16:00:19 <elliott> ais523: that's more because people don't know how to configure WordPress than reddit sending tons of traffic
16:00:23 <ais523> the patch-tag page on AceHack /was/ slashdotted
16:00:31 <ais523> elliott: well, indeed
16:00:34 <ais523> but it held up
16:00:37 <elliott> AceHack got on slashdot?
16:00:43 <ais523> yep :)
16:00:48 <elliott> what, as a standalone post?
16:00:52 <elliott> or as part of a post about NetHack variants?
16:00:52 <ais523> with a bunch of other variants
16:00:54 <elliott> the latter seems more believable
16:00:59 <elliott> right
16:01:05 <coppro> elliott: if you edit it, it doesn't become community wiki unless you choose to make it so
16:01:15 <elliott> coppro: no, if it gets edited by 5 other people it becomes CW
16:01:21 <coppro> really?
16:01:29 <elliott> (but you can flag it to be put back by a moderator, if other people have only made minor edits)
16:01:38 <coppro> ah
16:02:02 <elliott> (elected moderator again, not 10k)
16:02:17 -!- ais523 has quit.
16:02:31 <coppro> right
16:03:16 <elliott> elliott@solidity:/srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki-new/extensions$ for ext in AbuseFilter AntiSpoof CheckUser ConfirmEdit Nuke ParserFunctions Renameuser Vector WikiEditor; do sudo git clone https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/p/mediawiki/extensions/$ext.git; done
16:03:18 <elliott> fun
16:03:45 <coppro> what is nuke? ban a user and rollback all their edits?
16:04:14 <elliott> mass deletes pages created by a certain user
16:04:22 <elliott> I think it was designed for Wikipedia vandals and Esolang really has no use for it
16:04:27 <elliott> but I can't not enable such a destructive extension
16:05:40 <elliott> hmm
16:05:43 <elliott> does git track permissions?
16:05:49 <elliott> oh, it tracks at least +x, I guess
16:06:46 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:07:31 -!- elliott has joined.
16:07:41 <elliott> my connection :(
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16:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> No, I think Cambridge rejected him.
16:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Lies!
16:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an offer, although it's not really a pleasant one.
16:22:18 <elliott> Offer: "Go die in a fire, you Scottish asswipe."
16:22:55 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
16:23:26 <elliott> Hey shachaf, I'm reading a poor blog post about Haskell!
16:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> So for some reason I'm downloading TortoiseSVN, except they've rigged the download page not to display if you're using an adblocker.
16:29:21 <elliott> "Windows" — Phantom_Hoover
16:29:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it just plain doesn't display.
16:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You're... right.
16:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> wat
16:30:27 <elliott> It's obviously trivial to find the downloads.
16:30:31 <elliott> But why would you want TortoiseSVN?
16:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Some idiot mod authors decided to make theirs available through SVN.
16:31:04 <elliott> ...how is that idiotic? And since when does that mean you need to use TortoiseSVN?
16:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm literally following the instructions on their website.
16:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also c'mon, mods are not exactly aimed at a demographic who can use SVN.
16:31:59 <elliott> pikhq: Ping? coppro: Ping? Deewiant: Ping? Does anyone know git? :p
16:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, you're doing well to show you're well inside the technically-incompetent demographic you're talking about.
16:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ...why, because I follow instructions rather than critiquing every step?
16:34:03 <elliott> Because you follow instructions telling you how to check something out from SVN using a Windows GUI, rather than just checking it out using SVN itself, and then treat being unable to obtain the GUI tool as a roadblock?
16:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I took the path of least resistance rather than spending five minutes finding out how to use SVN on Windows?
16:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, why am I even biting.
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16:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> FYI, the Subversion site itself links to 3 GUIs, a 32-bit build on SourceForge and a broken page.
16:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to call me an idiot at least do it properly.
16:42:11 <elliott> Not a 32-bit build!!!
16:42:32 <elliott> It's almost as if the vast majority of Windows applications are 32-bit :P
16:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The 32-bit build is the last of five downloads.
16:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I know, it makes me feel so unclean.
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16:44:29 <coppro> elliott: what's up?
16:44:32 <coppro> what do you want to do?
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16:44:47 <elliott> coppro: if I change the ownership/permissions of a directory tracked by git, will it notice?
16:44:52 <elliott> i.e. does it track that stuff?
16:44:54 <elliott> I forget
16:44:56 <elliott> I think it tracks at least +x
16:45:30 <coppro> it tracks exactly +x
16:45:54 <elliott> good, I'm not changing +x :)
16:46:16 <fizzie> "the files all have mode 644 or 755: git actually only pays attention to the executable bit". -- them manual.
16:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Problem 2: about all I know of svn is that you use svn clone to download, and the Windows build apparently doesn't install an svn command.
16:47:19 * elliott wonders if git checkout-index does submodules.
16:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you *would* be better off with TortoiseSVN.
16:47:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "svn checkout", there is no "svn clone".
16:48:05 <elliott> (I guess probably: not.)
16:48:09 <elliott> (re submodules.)
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16:50:06 <elliott> fizzie: How would you create a copy of a git repository including submodules without the .git?
16:50:46 * elliott is trying to make Esolang's MediaWiki installation + extensions sourced from the git repos (and maintain LocalSettings.php in it too), but each extension is in a separate git repository, so...
16:50:51 <Gregor> Surely git archive can do it?
16:51:09 <elliott> (And MediaWiki's upgrade method means that I can't just reasonably maintain it in-place.)
16:51:17 <elliott> Gregor: Does that do submodules?
16:51:23 <elliott> submodules are kinda... second-class.
16:51:24 <Gregor> I don't know, but I would assume so.
16:51:30 -!- Deewiant has joined.
16:51:32 <Gregor> Out of SHEER OPTIMISM
16:51:41 <Gregor> More to the point, it's worth a try.
16:51:51 <elliott> Trying things is more difficult than asking people.
16:52:01 <Gregor> Well, then let me answer you this way:
16:52:10 <Gregor> git is fucking terrible, I don't know what it does because I hate it.
16:52:15 <elliott> Thanks!
16:53:40 <fizzie> All I know about submodules is that I think they're kinda iffy.
16:54:01 <elliott> fizzie: I don't really like them. But I can't think of a better way to maintain the extension directories.
16:55:34 <fizzie> But if all you need is in the working copy, maybe you could just rsync (or some other git-unaware tool) with suitable ignore rules for everything ".gitty".
16:55:58 <fizzie> s/ignore/exclude/
16:56:11 <elliott> fizzie: That would work, but is disgusting. :(
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16:56:45 <elliott> fizzie: "GIT_WORK_TREE=/blah git checkout" might work. Except that doesn't do submodules either, does it...
16:56:49 -!- Ngevd has joined.
16:56:53 <Ngevd> Helllo
16:57:09 <elliott> HELLO
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16:58:01 <fizzie> Apparently there are quite a few "git-archive-all" style scripts that do submodules too floating around the tubes. They all suck, of course. (I'm assuming that last part.)
16:58:53 <elliott> sigh
17:01:07 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I saw a gnome riding on a donkey; I was hiding in the tree. And ask him, who is he? And stay hidden so that they cannot find us. But then the wizard said he knows him his name is Git and he exited from the hiding and then I did too soon afterward
17:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "svn checkout", there is no "svn clone".
17:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh
17:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah I basically don't know anything about RCSes other than that there are like a billion of them and they all make downloading things that bit more complicated.
17:01:54 <Gregor> ...
17:02:03 <Phantom_Hoover> This is facetious.
17:03:11 <zzo38> And I have read that the git version system was named after its inventor even though that wasn't his name
17:03:18 <elliott> Git Torvalds
17:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You can just feel zzo's confusion.
17:03:45 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:03:53 <Gregor> Torvalds is just a git, that's all.
17:04:12 -!- Deewiant has joined.
17:04:35 <elliott> Gregor: You realise that's literally the origin of the name, right?
17:07:44 <Gregor> I'm unsurprised, but was unaware.
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17:10:14 <elliott> God, MediaWiki's file layout is incredibly annoying.
17:10:28 -!- Deewiant has joined.
17:10:33 <elliott> I really want to make Rasmus fucking Lerdorf hurt for making people put code in the same directory as data.
17:11:03 <elliott> (s/data/mutable data/ to appease the Lispers.)
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17:14:15 <elliott> OK, I'll just do the terrible thing.
17:14:27 <elliott> Wait, that won't work.
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17:24:18 <elliott> Hmm, this is super annoying.
17:24:28 <elliott> I... guess I could do fizzie's rsync thing.
17:24:49 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:25:02 <Ngevd> Hello
17:25:47 <elliott> HELLO.
17:31:20 <elliott> Actually, I couldn't quite do fizzie's rsync thing.
17:31:53 <elliott> Oh, I could just forget about the .git thing and do
17:32:17 <elliott> git clone --recursive blah mediawiki-new && cd mediawiki-new && cp -a ../mediawiki/{the,stuff} . && sudo -u www-data php maintanence/update.php
17:32:19 <elliott> but... ew.
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18:30:01 <elliott> Gregor: You should totally upgrade MediaWiki for me.
18:30:14 <Gregor> ... no.
18:32:11 <elliott> Gregor: That sounds like "yes" to me!
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18:40:22 <nortti> Have you heard about the freedom of speech ranking? Finland, Norway and Sweden are on the first place, USA is on place 22 along with Estonia, Brittain is on the place 31 and on place 179 is North Korea
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18:43:45 <Ngevd> I would respond, but I'd likely be arrestede
18:44:31 <nortti> Ngevd: where do you live
18:45:01 <Ngevd> UK
18:45:23 <Ngevd> I'm one of the two Hexhamites
18:45:28 <Ngevd> `? Hexham
18:45:31 <HackEgo> Hexham? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:47:07 <nortti> I have found out that freenode only wants SASL certificate from users of the IPS I use
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18:57:20 <elliott> hi, monqy
18:58:31 <nortti_> Because webchat likes to throw me out at random I will be stalking the logs and commenting if I feels like it. When I really quit I will put qdb.us url as my quit message
18:58:44 <monqy> hello
18:59:21 <nortti_> other quits just mean that it will take longer for me to answer
18:59:38 <elliott> how awful
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19:00:39 <nortti_> what do you mean?
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19:04:50 <elliott> rip monqy "died doing what he loved best: identifying things"
19:04:54 <monqy> :(
19:05:32 -!- Tanebrb has joined.
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19:05:56 <Ngevd> Hello
19:07:37 <nortti_> hi
19:09:44 <elliott> monqy: what happened
19:10:01 <monqy> scrole of immolation
19:10:14 <elliott> scroll of ded
19:10:17 <monqy> yes
19:10:27 <monqy> if i wanted to survive i would have read fog and blinked
19:10:28 <monqy> but
19:10:32 <monqy> "who cares about that"
19:11:20 -!- Foggalong has joined.
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19:12:46 <elliott> hi foggalong
19:12:48 <elliott> bye foggalong
19:15:10 <olsner> hi elliott
19:15:18 <Ngevd> elliott, tomorrow is DWARF FORTRESS DAY
19:15:18 <nortti_> "Step one: Shave his bullet-deflecting mustache."
19:17:51 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: STUFF).
19:18:46 <nortti_> "I'm an atheist for the next half hour, piss off."
19:21:33 -!- elliott has left.
19:21:44 <nortti_> "The members of The Southern Brotherhood were planning to assassinate Tsar Alexander I when he would be attending military manouevres in Ukraine in 1826. But, in November 1825, the Tsar suddenly died, [thus shitting all over the Brotherhood's plans to kill him]".
19:22:26 <monqy> good bye, elliott
19:24:20 <olsner> lolwtf, the page loads, displays, then redirects to a blank page
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19:30:47 <elliott> Oh boy, this MW situation is more of a pain than I thought.
19:31:07 <elliott> The .gitignore specifically ignores stuff in the extensions directory, and LocalSettings.php.
19:31:13 <elliott> Can you git add things that are .gitignored?
19:31:22 <elliott> Does that stop git commit -a from committing them?
19:32:59 <elliott> Okay, answer to the first question is yes.
19:33:01 <elliott> Maybe I should just try the second one.
19:33:33 <elliott> Ah, it does work.
19:33:37 <elliott> OK, I guess I'll just do that then.
19:33:55 <olsner> ok, you do that then
19:35:24 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:40:33 <elliott> "ok, you do that then" -- olsner, 2012
19:41:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:41:12 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: Surprisingly often, covered in tree sap | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:43:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:43:29 <elliott> Gregor: More like "I volunteer to upgrade Esolang's MediaWiki installation", am I right?
19:44:11 <elliott> "git pull" isn't atomic, right?
19:44:14 <elliott> Err, "git merge" I should say.
19:44:24 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2012/05/02/is-your-teen-browsing-the-pr0n/
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19:45:28 <monqy> First off, let’s look at the title: how do you know if your teenage kids are browsing teh pornz? Well, there are easy steps to find out:
19:45:31 <monqy> Step the first: they are. Period. Full stop. End of list.
19:45:31 <monqy> great article nortti
19:45:34 <monqy> "thanks a lote"
19:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Loving how this article completely denies the existence of asexuals.
19:47:49 <elliott> taneb looks at porn for research purposes only
19:48:08 <elliott> monqy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_Other_Than_English
19:48:10 <elliott> thanks, lote
19:48:46 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:48:50 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote,_Norway
19:48:51 <elliott> thanks, lote
19:49:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote_Raikabula
19:49:01 <elliott> thanks, lote
19:49:08 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote_tree
19:49:08 <elliott> thanks, lote
19:50:46 <elliott> Does anyone know how I could get "ssh solidity sudo cat /srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki/LocalSettings.php >Localsettings.php" to run without sudo complaining that there's no tty present?
19:50:52 <elliott> Oh, right, ssh doesn't supply a tty if you give it a command.
19:50:57 <elliott> That's annoying. I wonder if there's some way to override that.
19:53:04 <elliott> ah, -t
19:54:06 <elliott> monqy: wow if you think that article's bad take a look at the one it's responding to
19:54:11 <elliott> Do They Browse the Web with the Door Closed?
19:54:15 <elliott> Have they Rearranged their Room so the Monitor Faces Away from the Door?
19:54:18 <elliott> Do They Get Nervous and Uncomfortable When You Use Their Computer?
19:54:21 <elliott> Is Your Browser History Periodically Erased?
19:54:35 <monqy> i didn't even bother looking
19:54:41 <monqy> i saw the thing i pasted and then just closed it
19:54:46 <monqy> "enough article for me, monqy"
19:54:53 <monqy> - me, monqy
19:57:53 <elliott> I wish I was called me, monq.
19:57:54 <elliott> I wish I was called me, monqy.
19:58:16 <monqy> it's a good name to have
19:58:17 <elliott> monqy: Is your LOS square in real life, too?
19:58:36 <monqy> i
19:58:38 <monqy> i don't know D:
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19:59:09 <elliott> alas
20:00:09 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:01:20 -!- nortti_ has joined.
20:02:12 <nortti_> elliott: ylös
20:02:17 <elliott> what
20:02:51 <nortti_> in finnish alas=down ylös=up
20:03:03 <elliott> oops
20:05:03 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:05:24 <shachaf> hi elliott
20:05:35 <monqy> apparently "oops" in croatian means "lol"
20:05:40 <monqy> thanks google translate
20:05:43 <elliott> oops
20:05:48 <shachaf> I heard you were reading "a poor blog post about haskell"
20:05:52 <shachaf> hi monqy
20:05:53 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:06:07 <monqy> today I may or may not draw a self portrait of myself
20:06:14 <shachaf> gasp
20:06:18 <shachaf> A self-self-portrait.
20:06:28 <shachaf> so meta
20:06:42 <elliott> im envisioning the future breakdown of monqy after he is inundated with self portrait requests
20:06:43 <elliott> *envisions*
20:06:50 <shachaf> monqy: Do you think you could write an autobiography of me sometime?
20:07:04 <monqy> i dunno
20:07:14 <monqy> autobiographies are a lot of work!
20:07:23 <elliott> are you writing autobiographies too
20:07:25 <shachaf> Just a short one then?
20:08:33 <shachaf> My email had a POSTAL MAILING ADDRESS.
20:10:26 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:11:14 <elliott> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Jennefervoc6006
20:11:18 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:11:26 <shachaf> monqy: Are you going to draw a self-potrrait of kmc?
20:11:31 <shachaf> I think he earned one.
20:12:13 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:16:35 <elliott> monqy: anyway i was referring to the foreground part not the kitten yes
20:16:38 <elliott> it still looks familiar to me!!!
20:19:52 <shachaf> Kitten?
20:20:10 <shachaf> Is this a self-portrait that I missed?
20:20:22 -!- nortti has joined.
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20:24:56 <shachaf> Oh! I want a self-portrait of zzo38, too.
20:25:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I won't give you one; so you have to do it yourself
20:25:44 <shachaf> zzo38: monqy's been drawing self-portraits.
20:25:51 <shachaf> zzo38: He drew great ones of me and elliott.
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20:30:47 <elliott> monqy: you shouldn't draw any more self-portraits of anyone else its
20:30:50 <elliott> not sustainable
20:32:20 <shachaf> no monqy
20:32:25 <shachaf> elliotte is just
20:32:26 <shachaf> greedy
20:40:47 <elliott> Writing objects: 15% (50458/324608), 12.24 MiB | 46 KiB/s
20:40:49 <elliott> zzzzzzzzzz
20:42:18 <olsner> haha, cloning from darcs.haskell.org?
20:42:41 <elliott> nope, pushing to solidity
20:43:04 <olsner> ok, wow slow anyway
20:43:26 <elliott> @time olsner
20:43:26 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
20:43:31 <elliott> @time glogbackup
20:43:33 <elliott> @time monqy
20:43:34 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 13:43:34 2012
20:43:38 <elliott> @time ChanServ
20:52:32 <elliott> Writing objects: 40% (131637/324608), 42.63 MiB | 45 KiB/s
20:52:40 <elliott> zzzzZZZZzzzzZZzZZZZZZZzzzzzz
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20:58:43 <elliott> monqy: travel won't use staircases you haven't gone up??
20:58:48 <elliott> ugh
21:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> so youtube on linux no longer lets me skip around in videos
21:01:22 <elliott> > fix pure
21:01:23 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = f a
21:05:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is "cleanup" really a word?
21:05:33 <elliott> Like, without a - or a space.
21:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> something something descriptivism
21:06:03 <Phantom_Hoover> man
21:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (yes)
21:06:13 <elliott> It looks so wrong!
21:06:20 <elliott> But it's in all the dictionaries and everything.
21:06:20 <olsner> when cleaning up you do a cleanup
21:06:24 <elliott> And I used it. :(
21:06:32 <elliott> And I keep wanting to change it.
21:06:36 <elliott> But I only have 3 minutes to change it.
21:18:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:21:56 <elliott> The upgrade is onnnnn
21:28:00 <shachaf> helliott
21:32:55 <elliott> Update complete!
21:32:58 <elliott> And the main page's style is broken.
21:34:59 -!- itidus22 has joined.
21:35:22 <elliott> As is the featured icon.
21:37:08 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:38:49 <Sgeo> It is?
21:41:54 <elliott> Try force-reloading.
21:42:05 <elliott> Screenshots would be nice if they really aren't messed up for you.
21:42:21 <elliott> It's broken in both Safari and Firefox for me.
21:44:54 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:49:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#MediaWiki_1.19_upgrade_and_DNS_change
21:49:24 -!- Deewiant has joined.
21:50:20 <elliott> Sgeo: So does it actually look fine for you?
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22:28:33 <elliott> font size 1.6, line height 1.2, margin bottom .1
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22:33:09 <elliott> monqy: did you make a self-self-portrait
22:33:12 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:35:03 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:36:38 <monqy> no i was asleep
22:38:19 <elliott> In Haskell, what does map mean or do? Just wondering, I know it's a very general question and there's probably a lot of things that it does but like generally what is it used for?
22:38:56 <shachaf> elliott: "map" is the secret ingredient that makes Google Maps so good.
22:38:57 <pikhq> Curse whoever you're quoting!
22:39:20 <elliott> @time monqy
22:39:21 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 15:39:20 2012
22:39:26 <elliott> monqy: your sleep schedule "not gr8"
22:39:42 <shachaf> hi monqy
22:39:50 <monqy> :(
22:39:53 <shachaf> busy dreamging up my self portraite?????
22:39:56 <elliott> monqy: it's ok mine is worse
22:40:41 <shachaf> elliott: Does that mean your self-portrait will be "even better"?
22:42:23 -!- augur has joined.
22:42:36 <zzo38> Did you make a self-self-self-self-portrait?
22:43:27 <monqy> not yet
22:43:45 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:17 -!- Deewiant has joined.
22:44:19 <elliott> the pressure is one
22:44:30 <elliott> the pressure is two (its rising)
22:46:24 <elliott> monqy: i upgraded mediawiki while you were asleep
22:46:27 <elliott> you're welcome
22:46:51 <monqy> thanks
22:46:55 <monqy> what's upgrade
22:46:56 <elliott> you're welcome
22:47:01 <elliott> it's like downgrade
22:47:02 <elliott> but up
22:47:05 <elliott> hth
22:48:48 <zzo38> I once made up a program which implements a grid-based puzzle game engine where you can specify the rules, where each rule consists of: a direction flag, a symmetry flag, an optional input counter, an optional output counter, the initial state, the final state, the game end flag, the input pattern, and the output pattern.
22:49:09 <elliott> thanks
22:50:12 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:50:47 -!- Deewiant has joined.
22:51:42 <kmc> shachaf: if Google Maps used Haskell then they would know the name of the city where I live
22:52:02 <zzo38> Each pattern is 3x3, and can specify the color, character, both, or neither. In addition, the color and/or character can be "mark". There are seven colors, and the characters are the 1 to 254 of the CP437 set.
22:52:15 <zzo38> Sokoban can be defined using this system using three rules.
22:53:08 <elliott> monqy: hi
22:53:12 <elliott> that's
22:53:13 <elliott> a normal hi
22:53:14 <elliott> (tm)
22:53:16 <monqy> hello
22:54:48 <elliott> hello
22:55:09 <zzo38> What long description should I wrote for "prelude-generalize" package?
22:55:39 <Lumpio-> ugh, MS codepages
22:55:49 <elliott> zzo38: write the letter "a" twenty-seven times and then put "b"
22:55:54 <elliott> you can add a "c" if you feel it necessary
22:56:32 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:56:56 -!- Deewiant has joined.
22:57:09 <elliott> i would be very sceptical about any "d". ask yourself whether you truly need that "d"
22:57:34 <Lumpio-> Add a 内 for extra points
22:58:42 <zzo38> elliott: Why? But, OK.
22:58:52 <zzo38> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab
22:58:58 <zzo38> Or did you mean by hand?
22:59:14 <elliott> I meant for your long description. Twenty-eight letters is pretty long.
22:59:16 <elliott> But you can do it by hand too!
22:59:44 <zzo38> O, that's what you mean. But that isn't a very good description.
23:00:00 <elliott> Well, you can't have everything.
23:00:02 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I think CP437 is IBM codepage
23:00:45 <kmc> zzo38++ for CP437
23:00:47 <kmc> best codepage ever
23:00:50 <Lumpio-> ook
23:01:00 <Lumpio-> The term "codepage" itself just sounds overly Microsoftey to me.
23:01:24 <kmc> i mean "ugh legacy encodings" but it's old
23:03:22 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:04:07 <elliott> monqy: have you ever found an octopus???
23:04:18 <monqy> in an aquarium
23:04:37 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:04:44 <elliott> wow : )
23:05:33 <elliott> monqy: one problem: i don't believe aquariums are real?
23:06:11 <shachaf> monqy: can i comission a self portrait of kmc please
23:06:17 <shachaf> it's like a mission but with the arrows reversed
23:06:51 <shachaf> thonqy in advance
23:07:15 <elliott> haha this guy just totally fucked up
23:08:39 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
23:09:36 <elliott> wtf why did they do that
23:10:53 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:11:49 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:11:59 <coppro> elliott: are you watching crawl?
23:12:05 <elliott> yes
23:12:08 <coppro> kmc: glasgow?
23:12:23 <elliott> xgamer on CDO, i just picked at random because i saw they were on zot
23:12:57 <monqy> i'll watch too
23:13:33 <kmc> what?
23:14:55 <monqy> unless this guy messes up really badly i'm guessing he'll win
23:15:07 <elliott> monqy: before he zerked a dragon and then
23:15:17 <elliott> immediately another dragon and another thing came into view
23:15:27 <elliott> and as soon as he got to them the zerk ran out
23:15:37 <monqy> why isn't the curse toe tormenting
23:15:40 <elliott> he lost quite a bit of hp
23:15:43 <elliott> what
23:15:45 <kmc> oh, no i don't live in glasgow
23:15:47 <elliott> why did he berserk there
23:15:51 <monqy> hgheheheh
23:15:56 <kmc> glasgow has the third oldest subway system in the world
23:15:59 <elliott> berserker players remind me of me
23:16:08 <shachaf> kmc: Who has the second oldest and the first oldest?
23:16:16 <elliott> stalked by a bat and a rat on zot:2
23:16:22 <shachaf> I guess "oldest" is redundant in those sentences.
23:16:22 <kmc> budapest and london respectively
23:16:27 <monqy> oh no where is he going
23:16:33 <elliott> dungeon:1
23:16:38 <elliott> he's done with this dungeon
23:16:43 <elliott> "fuck it" - xgamer
23:16:54 * shachaf is off.
23:16:56 <kmc> in new york they spent like 20 years saying "dude we need rapid transit" without building any
23:17:05 <elliott> wtf
23:17:14 <kmc> during this time many companies were born and died and many legislators were bribed
23:17:20 <monqy> managing his stache, i see
23:18:14 <kmc> the first rapid transit in New York opened 5 years after the first bit of the London Underground
23:18:24 <kmc> but it was an elevated railway, and that's all they built for some time
23:19:13 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:19:32 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/
23:20:05 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:20:51 <elliott> monqy: does he remember about the orb
23:20:58 <monqy> he surely forgot
23:21:06 <elliott> kmc: that logo
23:21:07 <monqy> too much stache fun
23:21:17 <elliott> monqy: more like the orb of WHAT!!!
23:21:51 <monqy> it's just too deep deep down
23:21:52 <monqy> I can't do it
23:21:58 <kmc> the first subway part of the today New York City Subway opened in 1904
23:23:14 <elliott> monqy: how is this guy not bored yet
23:23:22 <monqy> no clue
23:24:39 <elliott> stop it
23:24:42 <elliott> *STOP IT
23:24:46 <elliott> accidentally forgot the capslock
23:25:09 <kmc> but the railroad tunnel from Grand Central at 42nd St to 96th St opened in 1875
23:25:37 <kmc> which today carries commuter trains, but at the time was arguably rapid transit, and had some underground stops
23:25:53 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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23:26:37 <elliott> monqy: he hasn't dropped his potion of slowing
23:26:39 <elliott> i think
23:26:42 <elliott> good job
23:26:56 <elliott> finally
23:27:12 <kmc> and there was a railroad tunnel in Brooklyn by 1844
23:27:16 <kmc> but Brooklyn wasn't part of New York yet!
23:27:19 <kmc> AND NOW YOU KNOW
23:27:19 <monqy> explore_delay and travel_delay should default to -1
23:28:00 <kmc> elliott: if you like the Beech Pneumatic logo you may also enjoy this picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Harvey_Cable_Car.jpg
23:28:13 <elliott> :D
23:28:24 <elliott> thank you, kmc, your extensive transport knowledge continues to entertain
23:28:42 <elliott> 00:28 <Henzell> death cob[1/5]: You may have already fielded a guess, but it's insane hostile food. It might be corny, but if you put an ear to the ground deep down in Crawl's maize, you may find that you are being stalked; being buttered up for the kill, smooth as silk.
23:28:46 <elliott> monqy
23:28:50 <elliott> i
23:28:52 <monqy> why is he clearing zot aaagh
23:28:58 <monqy> xgamer stop that
23:29:04 <elliott> you could use your hi ability
23:29:05 <elliott> hibility
23:29:15 <kmc> new york had better transit in 1930 than today :/
23:29:20 <elliott> "hi" is monqy for "stop that"
23:29:44 <monqy> he mapped zot4, maybe he'll dive it
23:29:55 <elliott> monqy "denialle"
23:30:10 <monqy> he's not keymashing that bone dragon fast enough
23:30:15 <monqy> (written before bone dragon deaded)
23:30:42 <elliott> wow i hope i play less in a less silly manner than this by the time i reach zot
23:30:51 <monqy> me too
23:31:21 <elliott> you won 17 times without reaching zot?
23:31:27 <elliott> did you use scrolls of acquirement to get the orb?
23:31:34 <monqy> no i hope you play in a less silly manner by the time you reach zot
23:31:36 <elliott> "i'm gonna go for miscellaneous" "j - the Orb of Zot" "yessssss"
23:31:49 <elliott> monqy: i prefer my version?
23:32:07 <monqy> it's a good version
23:32:20 <zzo38> Have you used METAFONT for designing any logos or typefaces?
23:33:17 <elliott> monqy: why are there death cobs
23:33:35 <monqy> because
23:33:39 <monqy> why not ?
23:33:59 <elliott> deep
23:34:15 <elliott> i
23:34:22 <elliott> why did he pick those up
23:34:28 <monqy> how should i know
23:34:29 <elliott> what is he DOING
23:34:35 <elliott> monqy: i didn't ask you!!!
23:34:37 <elliott> i asked hypothetical
23:34:43 <monqy> eat in front of the yellow drac yes
23:34:46 <monqy> eat stealthily
23:35:16 <elliott> monqy: you know when you crave something SO BAD and you just gotta eat even if you're dying
23:35:18 <elliott> that happened to xgamer
23:35:35 <monqy> he's not quite dying yet
23:35:42 <elliott> hi
23:35:51 <elliott> monqy: you're always dying when fighting
23:35:53 <elliott> just very slow
23:35:55 <elliott> *slowly
23:35:57 <elliott> *just,
23:36:15 <elliott> monqy: oh yeah is it true that travel won't use upstairs you haven't used
23:36:22 <elliott> i guess it makes sense but
23:36:28 <elliott> going up every upstairs will be so boring
23:36:36 <elliott> oh i think he might start dying soon
23:36:42 <monqy> wheee
23:36:52 <elliott> aww
23:37:08 <monqy> before i put all my buttons on one button i "stair dipped"
23:37:46 <elliott> what's that
23:38:05 <monqy> when you see an unused staircase you go down it then back up
23:38:51 <elliott> monqy: that's so ugh though :(
23:38:55 <elliott> i mean i'd just
23:38:58 <elliott> go up upstairs when i found them instead but
23:39:00 <elliott> that's still a pain
23:39:15 <elliott> oh, this will be fun
23:39:24 <monqy> he's not dying quite yet
23:39:43 <elliott> i never said that!!!
23:39:45 <elliott> i said it would be fun
23:39:47 <monqy> ok
23:39:55 <elliott> dying is one of but many ways to have fun
23:39:55 <monqy> this guy plays slow :(
23:39:58 <elliott> *is but one
23:40:05 <elliott> monqy: everyone plays slower than you
23:40:17 <elliott> i'd probably play lower than this on zot (but maybe not when i get to the point of reaching zot)
23:40:20 <elliott> *slower
23:40:22 <elliott> uugh typing is hard
23:40:32 <monqy> cashybrid is faster than me!!
23:40:37 <monqy> probably Elynae is faster than me too
23:40:44 <elliott> hey, this tv has "Vrestler"
23:40:51 <elliott> so titles (if that's what they're called) are translated???
23:40:54 <elliott> mystrious
23:40:54 <monqy> yeah
23:41:02 <elliott> monqy: isn't cashybrid half bot
23:41:05 <monqy> yeah
23:41:08 <elliott> isn't Elynae half bot
23:41:20 <monqy> that would explain things
23:41:35 <elliott> two orb guardians for the price of one
23:42:57 <elliott> rip
23:43:08 <elliott> monqy: he's dying now right
23:43:17 <elliott> yes
23:43:25 <monqy> qyite possibly
23:43:43 <monqy> it's also quite possibly he's not dying
23:43:44 <elliott> lol
23:43:59 <elliott> why
23:44:00 <elliott> is he walking around
23:44:02 <elliott> slow and exhausted
23:44:04 <elliott> and low on hp
23:44:23 <monqy> because resting in hall of zot is more dangerous than fleeing from it slowed
23:44:32 <monqy> if you've cleared the rest of the lvel
23:44:49 <elliott> oh is that where he is
23:44:51 <elliott> i didn't
23:44:54 <elliott> "recognise the feature"
23:45:16 <elliott> i thought that troll was hostile for a second
23:45:22 <elliott> disappointed it wasn't
23:45:29 <elliott> like
23:45:32 <monqy> ooh i wonder what he'll do here
23:45:37 <elliott> troll just appears from nowhere on zot:5
23:45:38 <elliott> oh boy
23:45:42 <elliott> lol
23:45:48 <elliott> great berserk this
23:45:50 <monqy> mmmm death drakes
23:46:01 <elliott> ahahaha
23:46:14 <monqy> i hope he rteles
23:46:14 <monqy> oh man
23:46:16 <monqy> he's rteleing
23:46:17 <elliott> why doesn't he have any curing
23:46:29 <monqy> he's just not using it
23:46:30 <elliott> "Fast+Slow"
23:46:36 <elliott> what's rtele :(
23:46:39 <monqy> random teleport
23:46:45 <elliott> oh
23:47:04 <elliott> does scroll of teleport do that since it's -cTele
23:47:07 <elliott> *teleportation
23:47:10 <elliott> oh he's dead
23:47:12 <elliott> rip
23:47:14 <monqy> scroll of tele is by default random
23:47:19 <elliott> oh right
23:47:20 <monqy> not dead yet
23:47:24 <elliott> ok dying
23:47:27 <elliott> also
23:47:28 <monqy> but yeah -ctele means no ctele
23:47:29 <elliott> near starving for some reason
23:47:38 <monqy> Fast+Slow is what happens when you're hasted and slowed at the same time (it has no effect itself but blocks further hasting and slowing)
23:47:46 <elliott> moth of wrath
23:47:48 <elliott> that's the best moth
23:48:18 <monqy> it used to be that fast and slow just canceled each other but then you could do stuff like re-slow or re-haste
23:48:25 <elliott> is that really so bad
23:48:34 -!- cswords__ has joined.
23:48:43 <monqy> oh no where's he going now
23:48:48 <elliott> o hno is it
23:48:50 <elliott> time for more
23:48:52 <elliott> *oh no
23:48:54 <elliott> stashing
23:49:00 <elliott> or did he get the orb
23:49:09 <monqy> if he got the orb he'd have a glowy purp halo
23:49:13 <elliott> nope it's stash time
23:49:17 <elliott> this guy is
23:49:23 <elliott> all about the stashes
23:49:30 <elliott> also why is his stash on lair:2 that's kinda weird
23:49:37 <elliott> does he notice you sent him a message mysteries of life
23:49:41 <monqy> lair:2 is a popular stash location
23:49:51 <monqy> because monsters that use items don't spawn on lair:2
23:49:59 <elliott> oh don't they? that's clever
23:49:59 <monqy> lair:1 gets stair spawns from the dungeon
23:50:12 <elliott> couldn't they walk down to lair:2 too
23:50:15 <monqy> no
23:50:15 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:50:18 <monqy> i think people have gotten jellies from dungeon on lair:1
23:50:21 <elliott> hmm, why not
23:50:23 <monqy> "goodbye, stash"
23:50:32 <monqy> they spawn on the branch exit stairs
23:50:40 <monqy> and monsters don't do interlevel travel by themselves
23:50:41 * ion is tempted to plawl, but there’s a bunch of lectures to be watched and a bunch of homework to be done.
23:50:52 <elliott> ion: why plawl when you can wlawl
23:50:54 <elliott> monqy: ugh that
23:50:55 <elliott> hit _
23:50:56 <elliott> in the corner
23:50:58 <elliott> is bugging me
23:51:01 <elliott> send him something else so he notices
23:51:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:51:23 <monqy> lots of people don't notice the Hit _ and it's so annoying
23:51:37 <elliott> you ahve to do something!!!
23:51:38 <elliott> *have
23:51:44 <elliott> it should flash
23:51:49 <monqy> yes
23:51:53 -!- cswords_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:51:55 <elliott> please send hi msomething oh god what if he
23:51:56 <monqy> i've bugged the devs about it before
23:51:58 <elliott> wins with a hit _
23:52:01 <elliott> that would
23:52:02 <elliott> ruin the win
23:52:05 * ion would wawl but you’re not plawl.
23:52:11 <elliott> ion: it's xgamer we're watching
23:52:16 <monqy> (Hit _) makes deaths instantly hilarious
23:52:16 <ion> ok
23:52:22 <elliott> monqy: PLEASE DO SOMETHING!!!! :'(
23:52:32 <ion> Do we know xgamer?
23:52:33 <elliott> ion: ok you send him a message as soon as he stops fighting
23:52:35 <elliott> no we don't
23:52:37 <monqy> i dunno if sending another message redisplays the hit _ message
23:52:39 <elliott> i just noticed him since he was on zot
23:52:44 <elliott> monqy: it doesn't but it displays it in the
23:52:46 <elliott> message scroller thing
23:52:51 <elliott> i think
23:53:02 <elliott> did he really just tweak skills on zot
23:53:32 <elliott> hhhhhhhhhh
23:53:40 <elliott> SOMEONE DO SOMETHING this is a humanitarian crisis
23:53:41 <monqy> i've bugged devs about having blinking (Hit _) or at least more noticeably colored (Hit _) or a force_more by default on the beep! your pager goes off but nobody listened
23:53:50 <elliott> monqy: maybe i'll send them a patch
23:53:54 <monqy> i sent another message and it didn't do anything
23:54:09 <elliott> this is tormenting me every single second i can't enjoy the game like this
23:54:15 <monqy> elliott: you can try bugging him; he's in ##crawl
23:54:17 <ion> Yeah, the (Hit _) should be more noticeable.
23:54:21 <elliott> monqy: or maybe you could!!
23:54:34 <elliott> monqy: i mean blinking is
23:54:34 <monqy> I've grown to like the (Hit _)
23:54:37 <elliott> really annoying though
23:54:41 <ion> This level looks a lot like a Zot Defense level.
23:54:44 <monqy> so maybe they'll hit _!!!!
23:54:46 <elliott> the force_more thing might be better
23:54:57 <elliott> monqy: or maybe they'll get a headache
23:55:05 <elliott> actually what it should do is
23:55:07 <elliott> instead of force_more
23:55:08 <elliott> it should be
23:55:10 <monqy> when i said blinking i meant
23:55:10 <elliott> force_press_underscore
23:55:12 <monqy> elemental coloured
23:55:12 <ion> I’d hate it if everyone could keep force_moreing me on a whim. :-P
23:55:20 <elliott> monqy: by blinking i meant
23:55:21 <monqy> but elemental colour is a technical term you might not know
23:55:25 <elliott> blinking
23:55:26 <elliott> as in
23:55:27 <elliott> the terminal attribute
23:55:29 <monqy> oh
23:55:36 <elliott> what's elemental colour
23:55:46 <ion> My terminal doesn’t support blinking text AFAIU.
23:55:53 <elliott> it probably does
23:56:01 <elliott> monqy: you sent the messages you bug him in ##crawl >:(
23:56:01 <monqy> it's a "colour" that's really a bunch of colours that change when crawl refreshes
23:56:09 <elliott> right, that would be better
23:56:27 <monqy> elliott: you send some messages and then bug him in ##crawl if it bothers you so much!
23:56:39 <elliott> monqy: you know it bothers you too!!!
23:56:41 <elliott> imagine if he wins like this
23:56:43 <elliott> you'll be agonised
23:56:46 <elliott> :(
23:57:11 <monqy> no i'll like it
23:57:12 <elliott> ok done
23:57:15 <elliott> let's just hope he
23:57:16 <elliott> checks IRC
23:57:24 <monqy> best part is when he starts a new game and then gets the messages there
23:57:27 <monqy> preferably after dying horribly
23:57:44 <elliott> why isn't he checking ##crawl nooooo
23:59:01 <elliott> monqy: what did you send partially end my agony
23:59:10 <monqy> hi, twice
23:59:22 <monqy> at different points
23:59:23 <elliott> good choice
23:59:33 <monqy> maybe i'll send it again if this goes south
23:59:37 <monqy> ooh, frail!
23:59:43 <elliott> what's frail
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