←2012-05-08 2012-05-09 2012-05-10→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:03:28 <elliottc> 01:01 <Sequell> 5617. KiloByte the Grasshopper (L5 MuWr), slain by a giant newt on D:1 on 2010-01-20, with 265 points after 60641 turns and 0:15:00.
00:03:49 <elliottc> i feel like i'm missing something here
00:06:08 <monqy> 2010
00:06:17 <elliottc> were turns different thing
00:06:18 <elliottc> *then
00:06:23 <elliottc> or was kilobyte just
00:06:25 <elliottc> really fast htne
00:06:26 <elliottc> *then
00:06:47 <monqy> might be a mummybot or from when there was this bug that screwed up realtime
00:07:00 <elliottc> maybe i'll tv it
00:08:01 <elliottc> monqy: anyway just fixing realtime doesn't explain it!!!
00:08:13 <elliottc> dying to a giant newt on D:1 after 60k turns is still impressive
00:08:54 <monqy> could have been a killsteal
00:08:56 <monqy> or suicide
00:09:31 <elliottc> now you're just giving me more options it could be !!!
00:09:34 <elliottc> anyway the log says
00:09:42 <elliottc> You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 1 of its levels.
00:09:43 <elliottc> so
00:09:59 <elliottc> (http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100120-231230.txt)
00:12:25 <ion> Why do you have a centaur attached to your nicke?
00:15:19 <elliottc> ok that log is bizarre
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00:21:53 <monqy> looks like it was a killsteal
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00:37:49 <ion> I’m playing a MfBe and will probably die soon.
00:38:57 <ion> Thawl. A gnoll shaman on D:1.
00:39:14 <elliottc> monqy: what's that
00:39:27 <elliottc> 01:39 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled killsteal in my learndb.
00:39:28 <elliottc> it can't exist
00:39:36 <monqy> oh
00:39:40 <monqy> anyway im gone
00:39:59 <elliottc> i will
00:40:02 <elliottc> never know ........!
00:40:19 <elliottc> anyway its not the actual
00:40:19 <monqy> a killsteal is when one thing does the real work of the killing and something else does the final blow, getting the credit
00:40:20 <elliottc> death
00:40:21 <elliottc> im concerned about
00:40:24 <monqy> oh
00:40:28 <monqy> anyway im gone
00:40:29 <elliottc> its the spending 60k turns on D:1
00:40:36 <monqy> mummyscumming
00:40:36 <monqy> anyway im gone
00:40:37 <elliottc> monqy: oh that? i thought that was too obvious
00:40:40 <elliottc> hi
00:40:41 <elliottc> monqy: are you gone
00:40:44 <monqy> yes
00:40:56 <elliottc> monqy
00:40:59 <elliottc> are you gone
00:41:05 <monqy> yes im still gone
00:41:17 <ion> monqy: I was under the impression Crawl distributes the experience based on how much work everyone did nowadays.
00:41:33 <monqy> ion: im talking about monsters killing the player, not the player and his allies
00:41:36 <monqy> ion: good day
00:41:38 <monqy> ion: im gone
00:41:39 <elliottc> monqy
00:41:39 <ion> ah
00:41:41 <elliottc> i need to know
00:41:43 <elliottc> its important
00:41:44 <ion> bonqy
00:41:44 <elliottc> ...
00:41:45 <elliottc> are you gone
00:41:46 <monqy> am I gone?
00:41:46 <monqy> yes
00:41:48 <elliottc> ok
00:41:50 <elliottc> but
00:41:51 <elliottc> are you gone
00:42:03 <monqy> i said i'm gone but actually i'm drinking this hot water
00:42:08 <monqy> i'll be gone after i finish
00:42:18 <elliottc> drinking hot water is basically like being gone
00:42:22 <elliottc> why is the water hot
00:42:23 <monqy> yes
00:42:27 <elliottc> enlighten us
00:42:29 <monqy> because it's actually tea
00:42:31 <monqy> good day / im gone
00:42:32 <elliottc> ah
00:42:36 <elliottc> why is the tea hot
00:42:43 <elliottc> did it ge tburned
00:42:51 <monqy> room temperature tea is gross
00:43:13 <elliottc> imo tea should be drunk at 0 K
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00:43:19 <elliottc> you never know what those atoms could do otherwise : /
00:44:20 <ion> Agreed.
00:45:22 <elliottc> i think monqy is gone
00:45:36 <elliottc> gonqy
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01:09:31 <elliottc> ^rainbow wobniar^
01:09:31 <fungot> wobniar^
01:09:42 <elliottc> Wobniar sounds like a Pokemon.
01:11:53 <elliottc> ion: Stop playing, I can't decide between watching you and coolrobin.
01:13:33 <ion> :-(
01:13:35 <ion> Watch both!
01:14:06 <elliottc> ion: That's impossible.
01:15:03 <elliottc> ion: You sure do like Trog.
01:18:29 <ion> He likes me, too.
01:19:06 <elliottc> ion: I'm going with coolrobin because you're hugeterm.
01:19:11 <ion> ok
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01:33:30 <ion> Hmm. Glaives chop hydra heads off, halberds don’t, right?
01:34:34 <ion> No, halberds do, too.
01:43:51 <elliottc> ion: So why did you use correctterm that one game?
01:43:59 <ion> Forgot to resize.
01:44:03 <elliottc> :(
01:44:07 <elliottc> You should have kept forgetting.
01:44:30 <elliottc> Honestly, you don't need that many lines of messages.
01:44:48 <ion> It’s not about the lines of messages, it’s about the size of the game map.
01:45:09 <elliottc> Right, so chop off a few lines of messages and you'll get something close in 80x24.
01:46:03 <elliottc> ion: You should abandon Trog for Xom.
01:46:08 <ion> Good idea.
01:46:11 <elliottc> You'd get good mutations.
01:46:27 <elliottc> Or die, but that's also an option you have now, so you're not losing anything.
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01:51:35 <elliottc> ion: What are you doing still with Trog?
01:51:49 <ion> Exploring a labyrinth.
01:52:05 <elliottc> Ditch Trog once you're done with the labyrinth, okay?
01:52:19 <ion> I’ll put that into consideration.
01:54:15 <elliottc> ion: By "put that in consideration", you mean "okay", right?
01:54:22 <elliottc> Come on, you're a merfolk. How hard can it be to deal with Xom?
01:54:26 <elliottc> It's not like you're a mummy.
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01:57:16 <elliottc> ion: C'mon.
01:57:19 <elliottc> Ctrl+F xom
01:58:05 <elliottc> Ctrl+F xom
01:58:20 <elliottc> What?
01:58:25 <elliottc> Ctrl+F temple
01:58:41 <elliottc> Ctrl+F temple
01:59:12 <elliottc> Ctrl
01:59:13 <elliottc> +
01:59:13 <elliottc> F
01:59:14 <elliottc> temple
01:59:23 <elliottc> No.
01:59:25 <elliottc> That's not how you spell temple.
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02:00:13 <elliottc> ion: You're stupid and boring.
02:00:23 <ion> no u
02:01:22 <elliottc> ^rainbow CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY
02:02:48 <elliottc> ion: Xom wants to welcome you!!!!
02:02:54 <elliottc> But he can't because you won't visit him.
02:06:32 <elliottc> ion: He's actually crying.
02:06:38 <ion> goode
02:07:35 <elliottc> ion: Now he's laughing.
02:07:42 <elliottc> WHATEVER YOU DON'T LI nice ring.
02:07:53 <elliottc> Why are you not wearing it?
02:08:28 <elliottc> ion: Why aren't you wearing that ring. :(
02:08:55 <elliottc> Ah.
02:09:01 <ion> I’ll replace the ring of hunger with it when i get a scroll of remove curse. :-)
02:09:03 <elliottc> Nice Robustness.
02:09:17 <ion> I got both from the labyrinth.
02:09:56 <elliottc> berk the plant
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02:22:20 <elliottc> ion: SWITCH TO XOM
02:27:31 <elliottc> ion: GT GT GT GT
02:28:43 <ion> Wow, i didn’t even realize i had this good rF and rC.
02:30:28 <elliottc> ion: See? So there's nothing Xom can do to hurt you.
02:30:43 <elliottc> ion: OK, at least promise me you'll switch to Xom for the orb run if you get that far.
02:31:38 <elliottc> ion: Trog's wrath won't even bother you with that kind of timescale.
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02:34:05 <elliottc> ion: Ping me when you enter a branch or anything interesting happens.
02:34:23 <elliottc> (So I can yell at you to convert to Xom.)
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03:58:05 <elliottc> 2005
04:04:08 <elliottc> ion: So how do you deal with early-game gnolls? :(
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04:32:29 <zzo38> The diamond seem not even one of the characters it uses itself
04:32:57 <shachaf> `quote basically
04:33:01 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 85) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. \ 142) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to
04:44:31 <shachaf> `quasically
04:44:33 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quasically: not found
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05:00:09 <zzo38> You can make Writer into Either by: uncurry (flip $ maybe Right (const . Left) . getFirst) . runWriter (but this is not the case of WriterT)
05:00:42 -!- elliottc has changed nick to elliott.
05:02:10 <ion> elliott: Depends on what you have. :-)
05:02:18 <elliott> ion: assume nothing
05:02:19 <elliott> :p
05:02:26 <ion> flee
05:03:38 <elliott> ion: Polearm.
05:05:16 <elliott> ion: Stop playing, I'm watching FooTV. :(
05:06:30 <elliott> 06:06 <Nomi> casmith789: did you hear about nethack 4?
05:06:33 <elliott> GOSSIP
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05:11:58 <ion> Is the dodging skill worth training when wearing heavy armoure?
05:13:23 <ion> Gonna do L:8
05:14:12 <elliott> ion: No, it's not.
05:14:13 <elliott> Or so I hear.
05:14:47 <elliott> ion: plz resize ur terminal
05:14:54 <ion> elliott: r
05:14:59 <elliott> no *ur*
05:15:01 <elliott> ion: pls convert to xom
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05:15:09 <elliott> pls convert to terminal
05:15:12 <elliott> pls resize xom
05:20:13 <elliott> 06:20 <xnmojo> tiles help you recognize monsters without having to check on the right or put yuor cursor over them. plus it adds flavor to the game
05:20:14 <elliott> oh dear
05:22:40 <ion> :-D
05:23:19 <ion> Ooh, shoals should be nice since i’m a mf.
05:23:41 <elliott> WHY AREN'T YOU AXEOME YET
05:23:43 <elliott> *XOM
05:23:45 <elliott> Axeome.
05:28:20 <elliott> ion: Are you dead yet?
05:28:33 <ion> Almost
05:28:46 <elliott> Great.
05:33:24 <elliott> Rip, Aizul.
05:33:34 <elliott> " In our hearts as they was in mind "
05:45:29 <elliott> ion: Are you still playing?
05:45:32 <elliott> Oh, no.
05:46:13 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear about my exciting email from Prof. Don Knuth?
05:47:08 <elliott> ion: Should I sleep?
05:47:27 <shachaf> <ion> no
05:47:34 <shachaf> "ionno"
05:47:35 <shachaf> GET IT
05:49:23 <zzo38> What message did you get? Knuth has no email, but I did once print out a message, put it in an envelope including address, give it to someone who was traveling there on business, who then gave it to the secretary of Knuth's office.
05:49:55 <shachaf> zzo38: His secretary (or someone) sent it to me.
05:51:20 <zzo38> But what is it?
05:53:02 <shachaf> He spoke with Ken Thompson and they agree that C89 shouldn't have allowed argc==0.
05:53:36 <shachaf> And various things.
05:55:33 <kmc> i wonder if there are any security holes caused by executing setuid binaries with argc = 0
05:55:37 <zzo38> I agree too; argc should be positive since it include program name, it is a part of how C works. Except: Sometimes in case main is not a program loaded from some operating system, but instead is the operating system itself or something like that, then you should not try to access argc at all.
05:56:47 <zzo38> kmc: At least in the case of some programs I have written, there aren't any since all such programs intended to be setuid, I always check if it has correct command-line parameters first and the program terminates if it doesn't.
05:56:50 <shachaf> kmc: Unfortunately there isn't really a way to pass data in.
05:57:06 <shachaf> Although it can certainly cause segfaults. Maybe in some cases?
05:57:11 <shachaf> Hmm, you can pass data in in the environment.
05:57:17 <kmc> yes
05:57:35 <kmc> which comes right after argv on linux
05:57:37 <shachaf> Maybe something that reads too far into argv can be manipulated.
05:57:55 <shachaf> But it seems suspicious.
05:57:56 <kmc> i was thinking while (--argc) { ... }
05:58:05 <kmc> will loop forever if argc=0
05:58:15 <kmc> and read through the environment array on linux
05:58:19 <elliott> No it won't. :(
05:58:31 <zzo38> When I write programs intended to sun with setuid, or meant to be called remotely, I am always careful about these things.
05:58:43 <shachaf> while (--argc) is an idiom that appears in several of Knuth's programs.
05:59:21 <zzo38> shachaf: But are they standard user programs? If so, it isn't such an issue.
05:59:44 <zzo38> If they are meant for setuid or remote, then you have to be more careful.
05:59:49 <elliott> kmc: You infinitist.
06:00:03 <kmc> well really it's undefined behavior
06:00:37 <zzo38> Either it will eventually wrap around or it will segfault before that happens.
06:00:40 <shachaf> kmc: Even if (argc != 2) { printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); } is undefined behavior.
06:00:59 <shachaf> In fact printf %s with NULL used to segfault on Solaris libc until a few years ago.
06:01:03 <shachaf> glibc checks it, though.
06:01:19 <zzo38> shachaf: I have never done a thing like that; I understand C programming.
06:01:25 <kmc> shachaf: i wonder why you know that
06:02:19 <elliott> kmc: Oh, right.
06:02:24 <elliott> I forgot C doesn't specify signed flow.
06:02:29 <elliott> (What's a good word for (under|over)flow?)
06:02:49 <shachaf> kmc: Which part?
06:03:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I've done a thing like that, and so have a bunch of other people.
06:03:28 <shachaf> Under the assumption that why would argc ever be < 1?
06:03:36 <zzo38> Instead of printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); I will hardcode the program name (in a macro if necessary), and use fprintf(stderr,...) instead of sending the usage message to stdout, and include a line break.
06:03:59 <shachaf> zzo38: That was just for illustrative purposes.
06:04:08 <kmc> -_-
06:04:31 <shachaf> zzo38: if (argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s BLAH\n", argv[0]); } is also UB
06:04:42 <elliott> *Is* there a good word for (under|over)flow?
06:05:00 <zzo38> Well, yes, it is; but as I was saying I do not like to use argv[0] like that
06:05:05 <shachaf> optiflow
06:05:21 <shachaf> Er.
06:06:06 <zzo38> You can just call it overflow; I would use "underflow" only for stack underflow; but in case you don't like that then use different
06:06:15 <kmc> secure C programming is easy as long as you don't make any mistakes
06:06:22 <shachaf> kmc: Do you usually bike on "trips"?
06:06:36 <kmc> i think arithmetic underflow is a kind of arithmetic overflow, broadly speaking
06:06:50 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is a kind of arithmetic overflow I agree
06:07:00 <kmc> shachaf: you mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_diethylamide#.22Bicycle_Day.22
06:07:34 <shachaf> kmc: Yes, like that.
06:07:39 <shachaf> I think you linked to that before once.
06:07:55 <shachaf> I think it was on Apr 19, in fact.
06:08:23 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written in C and intend to make safe and secure; I look and am careful, and it probably is; but if you find something wrong with it then feel free to notify me (try to exploit it first if you want, as long as you cause no damage by doing so)
06:08:43 <shachaf> kmc: What's your long Julytrip going to be?
06:08:52 <elliott> kmc is all about the drugs. And trains.
06:09:01 <elliott> kmc: Have you ever been on a train... on acid?
06:09:09 <kmc> elliott: no
06:09:21 <kmc> i took 2C-E for an airplane trip though
06:09:26 <elliott> Close enough.
06:09:57 <elliott> I once walked while on ibuprofen.
06:09:58 <kmc> shachaf: I'm (maybe) biking to Bethel, Vermont for Firefly, which is a New England regional Burning Man sort of thing
06:10:05 <elliott> I'm just that hardcore.
06:10:14 <kmc> or i might get lazy and take the train
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06:10:40 <kmc> it's like 150 miles, probably in 3 days
06:10:45 <elliott> 2C-E is really not a catchy name.
06:10:50 <kmc> yeah
06:10:51 <elliott> They need to work on their marketing.
06:11:06 <kmc> i don't think it has even been popular enough to get a street name
06:11:09 <elliott> Drugs are totally ready for a disruptive startup.
06:11:19 <elliott> Just need some of that Y Combinator funding.
06:11:36 <elliott> Also insert Haskell joke.
06:11:53 <kmc> how about genetically engineered E. coli which produce psilocybin
06:11:58 <kmc> that would be disruptive
06:12:21 <elliott> "Any street name is doomed to failure since 2C-E is simply not that distinctive for the majority of users."
06:12:34 <elliott> Quick, startup joke... uhh...
06:12:42 <kmc> i think it is pretty hard to distinguish the 5HT agonists, honestly
06:12:56 <kmc> everyone has their own pet theory about how shrooms are more foo and acid is more bar, but they don't really match up
06:12:59 <elliott> (I wonder if I'm on some kind of watchlist for that search.)
06:13:06 <elliott> (I hope so.)
06:13:22 <kmc> i think many people could tell them apart in a double-blind test, but their criteria for doing so will not be transferrable
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06:14:22 <elliott> Oh, I was going to sleep, wasn't I.
06:14:34 <kmc> NO
06:14:38 <kmc> YOU WEREN'T
06:14:50 <zzo38> Do you like the Internet Quiz Engine? Do you believe it is not a security breach?
06:15:02 <elliott> kmc: :(
06:15:16 <elliott> But if I don't sleep now, I'll sleep later. And probably not a later enough later to not wake up when it's dark or getting it.
06:15:17 <kmc> interquiz net engine
06:15:43 <zzo38> kmc: I meant the other one.
06:16:13 <elliott> I think "Do you believe it is not a security breach?" is a question that can only be prompted by something that demonstrates "it" is probably a security breach.
06:16:15 <elliott> Or something.
06:17:46 <zzo38> Well, there is no such demonstration I know of at this time, but it is written in C and the source-codes is available to public, and it can be accessed remotely.
06:19:07 <elliott> Hmm, Programming in the 21st Century seems to be devolving into self-reference a bit.
06:23:42 <elliott> zzo38: Should I sleep. :(
06:24:00 <zzo38> elliott: Are you tired? Is it dark?
06:24:12 <elliott> Yes and no.
06:24:18 <elliott> It was dark but then it stopped being dark and got light again.
06:24:34 <zzo38> Sleep if you like to do so, please.
06:24:42 <kmc> elliott: what is it
06:24:58 <elliott> kmc: The, uh, sky, I guess.
06:25:48 <kmc> imeant Programming in the 21st Century
06:25:52 <elliott> Oh.
06:26:04 <kmc> oh that blog
06:26:06 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/. It's a pretty good blog.
06:26:17 <elliott> Not as good as http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/, though!
06:27:45 <shachaf> whowrites arcanesentiment??
06:30:06 <kmc> prog21 claims to be a "super technical programming blog" but i just flipped through a half dozen articles and saw about 3 lines of code total
06:30:18 <elliott> Where does it claim that?
06:30:23 <kmc> http://prog21.dadgum.com/137.html
06:30:53 <elliott> I think that's more than a little joking. It was more code-focused a while ago, anyway.
06:30:58 <elliott> (By "a while" I mean "a few years".)
06:31:03 <shachaf> Perhaps the author has got a different "super technical programming blog"!
06:31:14 <kmc> also here's yet another person who thinks the entire and sole point of Haskell is to never use state
06:31:25 <kmc> (mainly in re the latest article)
06:31:48 <elliott> That's unfair.
06:32:07 <elliott> He's not exactly inexperienced with functional languages.
06:32:11 <kmc> i know
06:32:13 <zzo38> Then they should learn!
06:32:37 <elliott> Anyway, if you're using state, then it's only tenuously "functional programming" in the "declarative programming" sense most people use it to mean.
06:32:45 <elliott> Whether it's Haskell is another matter entirely, of course.
06:33:05 <elliott> ("State" here used as an abbreviation for "mutable state in the usual imperative manner".)
06:33:24 <kmc> yeah
06:33:58 <kmc> it's a common fallacy; this article is not an especially strong instance
06:33:59 <zzo38> You can use state, and a bunch of other things, by using the correct computable mathematical representation of such things. And, isn't there some commands in Haskell to make these imperative kind of state in IO monad?
06:34:00 <shachaf> "functional programming" doesn't mean much.
06:34:18 <shachaf> (Alternatively, means too much.)
06:34:28 <kmc> means too many different things
06:34:31 <shachaf> One of my new goals on the Internet is to avoid arguments that are about words.
06:34:41 <shachaf> Unless they're explicitly about words, maybe.
06:34:41 <kmc> aren't all arguments about words?
06:34:55 <elliott> By that definition, everything is a "correct computable mathematical representation".
06:35:02 <shachaf> No, some arguments just use them.
06:35:03 <elliott> C is a correct computable mathematical representation because you can model it formally.
06:35:06 <elliott> Sounds elegant.
06:35:12 <shachaf> Selegant.
06:36:15 * kmc has a super technical programming blog
06:36:35 <shachaf> kmc: Arguments which stem from unshared definitions or axioms are probably rarely fruitful.
06:37:10 <shachaf> Definition disagreements are reasonably easy to overcome if someone notices and clarifies things.
06:37:23 * elliott is a super technical programming blog.
06:37:50 <shachaf> If two people have unshared axioms then an argument about theorems resulting from those axioms is mostly pointless.
06:38:11 <kmc> unless they explicitly acknowledge it, and are trying to justify their respective axioms informally
06:38:20 <elliott> http://ehird.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html -- is this super technical enough? (Okay, I never made any other posts to that thing. And also I broke the code before posting it because I didn't understand why "instance (C a) => D a" wouldn't work.)
06:38:27 <shachaf> I heard a rumour that a tradition in Indian philosophy is to say "these are my axioms; OK, these are your axioms; for the purpose of this argument let's just use the intersection"
06:38:59 <shachaf> That sounds too reasonable to be true, though. :-)
06:39:02 <elliott> kmc: Not every argument is about words. Some are about irreconcilable differences in value systems.
06:39:12 <elliott> I suppose you can make those to be arguments about words, too. (Such as the definition of "good".)
06:39:44 <pikhq> You can *make* nearly any argument be about words.
06:39:50 <pikhq> This is the art of "politics".
06:39:57 <elliott> what
06:40:00 <kmc> also it's pretty cheeky for him to claim to be on "the cutting edge of functional programming research"
06:40:02 <shachaf> I can't work out whether elliott's /ignore is on the IRC level or on the elliott level.
06:40:18 <shachaf> kmc: Didn't you hear? "cutting edge" is the old "mainstream".
06:40:25 <elliott> kmc: Yes, cheeky, as in the position of his tongue when writing that.
06:40:28 <shachaf> You have to be on at least the "bleeding edge" to be worth anything.
06:40:33 <elliott> You're taking him way too seriously. :p
06:40:56 <kmc> sure it's tongue in cheek, but implicit in that joke is the assertion that actual published FP research is worthless
06:41:11 <zzo38> You should test it at first before writing the report.
06:41:21 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear how the number of unordered n-tuples of elements of k is (n + k - 1) choose k?
06:41:28 <shachaf> Oh, I guess I did mention that while you were here.
06:41:43 <kmc> "look at this shit essay i wrote, and it's super popular now, I guess that invalidates everyone else working in this field"
06:41:45 <elliott> I don't think that's necessarily true; I think he was commenting more on the prominence of what he wrote in searches for the same thing, which had artificially made him resemble an authority. (But this is a silly thing to argue about.)
06:42:55 <elliott> I haven't used Icon. Maybe I should use Icon.
06:43:41 <elliott> "But any language that can implement its own interpreter isn't total!" Hmm, that sounds too vague to be strictly true.
06:45:03 <elliott> kmc: Have you used Icon?
06:47:47 <elliott> (Hey, does that statement correspond to Goedel's theorem?)
06:47:59 <elliott> (And is the vagueness fixed by requiring the same things it does?)
06:49:07 <kmc> i haven't
06:49:10 <elliott> Should I sleep. :(
06:49:50 <kmc> no
06:50:06 <lambdabot> go to sleep elliott
06:50:10 <elliott> kmc: Why. :(
06:50:18 <zzo38> Yes at least to me it does seem like Goedel's theorem, too
06:50:55 <kmc> i think i agree with the prog21 guy more often than not
06:51:05 <kmc> i've linked a lot of people to "Advice for aimless excited programmers"
06:51:13 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, I think it does. You want to construct the program P = interpret(encoding of P).
06:51:20 <elliott> And that gets you _|_.
06:51:39 <kmc> and i've frequently ranted about how "Let's reimplement all existing software, but in Haskell!" is dumb
06:51:56 <elliott> kmc: It's exceptionally dumb. They should do it in @lang intsead.
06:51:58 <elliott> *insetad.
06:52:00 <elliott> *fuck.
06:52:01 <kmc> yeah
06:52:11 <kmc> extern "Haskell" { ... }
06:52:21 <elliott> Ew.
06:52:24 <elliott> @lang can't talk to Haskell.
06:52:24 <lambdabot> pong
06:52:33 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that GCC has extern "Java" { ... }
06:52:43 <shachaf> kmc: Yes.
06:52:58 <elliott> kmc: Shouldn't I sleep?
06:53:04 <pikhq> elliott: Nein.
06:53:11 <lambdabot> elliott: you should sleep
06:53:13 <pikhq> You should implement extern "@lang" { ... }
06:53:27 <elliott> No.
06:53:29 <elliott> Nothing can talk to @lang.
06:53:34 <elliott> Come on.
06:53:37 <elliott> It's pure.
06:53:50 <kmc> elliott: then how will i write a video game??
06:53:54 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:53:55 <kmc> checkmate atheists
06:54:07 <zzo38> How is the computer going to do anything if the nothing can talk to the @lang?
06:54:10 <elliott> kmc: divine intervention
06:54:16 <Sgeo> I'd use a device with a crappy UI if I understand the UI because I made it
06:54:20 <Sgeo> :/
06:54:20 <kmc> are there any ahead-of-time native compilers for C#
06:54:22 <zzo38> There must somehow be some command to do so.
06:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: It will mumble to an x86-64 computer if it has to.
06:54:42 <zzo38> Even if it is only the other way!
06:54:48 <elliott> But it will refuse to rise to the level of "talking".
06:55:08 <elliott> Also it'll be really rude about it, should I sleep.
06:55:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Should I sleep.
06:56:30 <kmc> it's weird that there are no high-level "mainstream" languages with AOT native compilers
06:56:45 <elliott> AOT native compilers are sort of horrible to use.
06:56:55 <shachaf> kmc: There's gcj, isn't there?
06:57:04 <elliott> kmc: Does D count as: high-level; "mainstream"?
06:57:05 <kmc> yeah
06:57:08 <shachaf> Admittedly that's not a mainstream compiler.
06:57:11 <kmc> maybe i should have put "mainstream" on "compilers" as well
06:57:15 <elliott> If so, checkmate Pythonistas.
06:57:15 <kmc> i don't think D is mainstream
06:57:20 <elliott> (...It had to sound similar.)
06:57:25 <elliott> kmc: It's in TIOBE!!!!
06:57:31 <kmc> omg tiobe
06:57:41 <elliott> TIOBE, also known for: absolutely fucking nothing else.
06:57:44 <shachaf> The Index Of Bad Estimates
06:57:50 <elliott> *nothing fucking, perhaps.
06:57:50 <kmc> burn
06:58:06 <elliott> LOOKING FURTHER AT THE TIOBE INDEX (this is my catchphrase), Lisp sort of counts.
06:58:09 <elliott> Also... Logo?
06:58:20 <elliott> They think Logo is the 19th most popular programming language.
06:58:22 <kmc> maybe COBOL is high level
06:58:27 <kmc> nobody my age knows anything about COBOL
06:58:28 <elliott> I'm... not sure what's up with that.
06:58:47 <elliott> Probably a bunch of false matches for the word "logo".
06:58:54 <elliott> What the fuck is NXT-G?
06:58:59 <elliott> Oh.
06:58:59 <shachaf> kmc: Does Algol 68 count as mainstream and/or high-level?
06:59:00 <elliott> Lego.
06:59:09 <elliott> Apparently that's the 20th most popular programming language!
06:59:09 <kmc> shachaf: I guess so
06:59:22 <kmc> maybe Vala counts as both
06:59:25 <elliott> Algol 68 counts as "mainstream"?
06:59:34 <pikhq> It was at one point at least.
06:59:40 <elliott> It was?
06:59:47 <elliott> My understanding was that nobody used Algol 68.
06:59:51 <shachaf> I have an Algol 68 interpreter installed on my machine.
06:59:53 <elliott> Because it's complicated as shit.
07:00:00 <shachaf> It's a weird language.
07:00:01 <kmc> Vala is used to write desktop apps, which we all know is the criterion for language success
07:00:02 <elliott> "ALGOL 68 is substantially different from Algol 60 and was criticised partially for being so, so that in general "Algol" refers to dialects of Algol 60."
07:00:14 <pikhq> Oh, sure 'nough.
07:00:41 * shachaf wonders whether there can be such a thing as cynicism overflow.
07:00:41 <elliott> There's a fork of the GNOME note-taking application Tomboy that tries to be completely identical in every way except it's written in C++ rather than C#.
07:00:43 <elliott> Because Mono.
07:00:50 <shachaf> Perhaps we can figure out a way to exploit kmc.
07:00:54 <kmc> Haskell might be used in financial analysis and bioinformatics and NSA cryptography, but it won't truly be mainstream until someone uses it to write a GTK+ app for downloading cat pictures
07:01:06 <kmc> actually ManateeLazyCat probably did that already
07:01:08 <elliott> I'm sure manatee can do that WHY THE FUCK AM I AWAKE
07:01:11 <elliott> snap
07:01:13 <kmc> :)
07:01:32 <kmc> i always thought haskell isn't and shouldn't be a "mainstream" language
07:01:35 <elliott> pikhq: "Should I sleep."
07:01:36 <shachaf> Oh, I mentioned Algol 68 and then elliott mentioned it.
07:01:37 <kmc> but rather a language of many interesting niches
07:01:41 <pikhq> elliott: What time is it?
07:01:45 <shachaf> I guess elliott is reading my messages, just not replying.
07:01:45 <pikhq> And when did you wake?
07:01:46 <elliott> @time pikhq
07:01:48 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq is Wed May 9 01:01:46 2012
07:01:52 <pikhq> @time elliott
07:01:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:01:52 +0000
07:01:53 <pikhq> I mean.
07:01:58 <elliott> (I'm in BST.)
07:02:04 <pikhq> When did you wake?
07:02:12 <elliott> Like 19:00. :(
07:02:33 <zzo38> That seem to be late for wake up!!
07:02:41 <elliott> :'(
07:02:45 <pikhq> elliott: Only 12 hours awake, then?
07:03:02 <elliott> I don't know, that's too much arithmetic for how tired I am.
07:03:20 <pikhq> ... You tired shouldn't be.
07:03:29 <elliott> Well, I didn't sleep much.
07:03:51 <kmc> shachaf: hey, i'm not *only* a cynic
07:03:56 <elliott> kmc: You aren't?
07:04:22 <shachaf> Not *only* a cynic. A cynic with a super technical programming blog.
07:04:26 <shachaf> There's a difference!
07:04:26 <zzo38> Some other programming language not used anymore is BLISS (there is a lack of modern implementation); C became common. Although, I (and some others too) think some ideas of BLISS are better designed than C. (LLVM is also better designed than C)
07:04:28 <kmc> right
07:04:51 <elliott> "LLVM is better than C" is my favourite zzo38 opinion.
07:05:16 <kmc> depends what you're using it for
07:05:23 <elliott> Programming.
07:05:25 <shachaf> ghc backend
07:05:31 <elliott> (Not just compiling to.)
07:05:43 <shachaf> Why would you write actual code in C?
07:06:04 <kmc> i still think C is a pretty good language in its niche
07:06:16 <shachaf> Its niche being "languages that are C"?
07:06:28 <elliott> HEY SHOULD I SLEEP
07:06:29 <kmc> but it's not "close to the machine" or "a portable assembler"
07:06:34 <elliott> pikhq never even answered me. :(
07:06:34 <zzo38> elliott: Well, LLVM does lack macros and so on; but if we can make something that has some features of BLISS and also all the LLVM commands, and then translates everything that isn't direct LLVM command into the LLVM commands, and then it will compile; would be good idea.
07:06:46 <kmc> shachaf: who's the cynic now :(
07:06:46 <pikhq> elliott: I vote "not unless you're tired".
07:06:55 <elliott> kmc: it's a portable PDP assembler, which doesn't contradict anything you said :P
07:07:04 <elliott> I miss real CISCs. (note: I've never used a real CISC)
07:07:09 <elliott> pikhq: I am :'(
07:07:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Should've voted: "iff you're tired"
07:07:32 <zzo38> kmc: C is, I suppose, pretty good language in its niche, but it has some bad designs
07:07:36 <kmc> yes
07:07:47 <pikhq> It continues to bother me that people think C is "close to the machine". It's not all that close to x86 ASM, which itself is pretty abstracted from the hardware.
07:07:49 <kmc> also by "C" i mean C99 with a variety of GNU extensions
07:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: So is that yes if you are tired?
07:08:07 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
07:08:10 <shachaf> Once it was easy to tell what C's bad designs were.
07:08:12 <elliott> What's 8+8.
07:08:17 <pikhq> And the idea that it's "portable assembler" makes for some astonishingly bad C.
07:08:17 <shachaf> But then I forbade de signs of the bad designs
07:08:20 <pikhq> elliott: 16
07:08:20 <elliott> (I know, it's 17.)
07:08:21 <kmc> pikhq: well I think "close to the abstraction presented by the hardware" is a valid meaning of "close to the machine"
07:08:25 <kmc> so i try to reserve judgement
07:08:36 <kmc> but yes many people are misinformed here, and it bothers me
07:08:39 <shachaf> elliott: I bet I'm more tired than you.
07:08:41 <shachaf> @time shachaf
07:08:42 <shachaf> @time elliott
07:08:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:08:43 +0000
07:08:47 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed May 9 00:08:41 2012
07:08:47 <shachaf> QED
07:08:51 <kmc> C isn't particularly close to the absraction presented by the hardware, either
07:08:52 <elliott> kmc: You would have fit in here great a few years ago when I was complaining about all the same things.
07:08:58 <pikhq> kmc: 'Cept it's not *that* close to x86.
07:09:02 <kmc> but it's a good deal closer than most languages people use
07:09:05 <elliott> It should only take you a few months to decide to write an OS.
07:09:10 <pikhq> I mean, memcpy is a single instruction.
07:09:19 <kmc> C compilers do a lot of fancy non-local optimization
07:09:21 <elliott> Then some bad things happen though, SORRY THAT'S FATE.
07:09:24 <zzo38> I want a computer that can be programmed in Checkout
07:09:31 <kmc> elliott: you were complaining about this before it was cool?
07:09:36 <elliott> kmc: :(
07:09:50 <pikhq> Well, strcpy, sorry.
07:10:05 <shachaf> pikhq: memcpy too, no?
07:10:05 <kmc> isn't memcpy also?
07:10:13 <pikhq> Oh, bleh. Right.
07:10:18 <shachaf> There's an instruction that decrements ecx and checks if it's 0 or something.
07:10:29 <kmc> but there's also rep movs
07:10:32 <ion> There’s a Portal 2 sale.
07:10:41 <shachaf> hion
07:12:31 <elliott> The consensus is that I sleep, right?
07:12:33 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:12:51 <shachaf> Yes.
07:12:57 <shachaf> ion: Huh, Portal 2 supports user-made puzzles these days?
07:13:23 <pikhq> shachaf: As of, uh, today.
07:13:42 <kmc> i guess strcpy is repne movsb
07:13:45 <shachaf> pikhq: Oh.
07:13:57 <shachaf> rep ret
07:14:06 <shachaf> rep nop
07:14:09 <shachaf> All these great instructions.
07:14:22 * kmc <3 those instructions
07:14:25 <pikhq> Alas, those have undefined behavior.
07:14:33 <elliott> Wow, you're all useless.
07:14:42 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm pretty sure an Intel and/or AMD manual defines the behaviors of those.
07:14:47 <kmc> there are particular chips which define both
07:14:47 <pikhq> elliott: 寝る方が良い
07:14:57 <shachaf> kmc: I want a disassembler that shows what each instruction actually does!
07:15:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Sweet jesus on a stick.
07:15:03 <elliott> How to sleep better
07:15:07 <kmc> intel calls rep nop "pause" but it's encoded as rep nop
07:15:10 <ion> shachaf: Apparently something like that, yes.
07:15:22 <kmc> it's a spin loop hint
07:15:25 <shachaf> The Intel manual has a pretty precise description of each instruction in sort-of pseudocode.
07:15:51 <shachaf> Probably a lot of it could be cut out to fit the context (you know whether you're in long mode and so on).
07:15:53 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian#DEC_VAX
07:15:58 <pikhq> elliott: 日本語で寝られるの
07:16:01 <shachaf> This would be a useful feature of a disassembler program.
07:16:03 <shachaf> Does one exist?
07:16:17 <kmc> and "rep ret" is a workaround for a bug in some AMD branch predictors
07:16:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400
07:16:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Yay, I can read the first three characters of that!
07:16:31 <elliott> (kmc might like those.)
07:16:32 <kmc> but the new advice is to use "ret 0" instead
07:16:38 <shachaf> Actually I can read the first two and then make a heuristic guess at the third.
07:16:49 <kmc> nice
07:16:59 <pikhq> shachaf: The heuristic guess is almost certainly right. :)
07:17:07 <shachaf> pikhq: Yep.
07:17:23 <elliott> Note to self tomorrow: fix unsigned tempalte on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing-complete.
07:17:34 <shachaf> What does "で" mean?
07:17:38 <elliott> Also correct myself wrt hosted C and CHAR_BIT.
07:17:39 <shachaf> Is it a particle? What's a particle?
07:17:43 <shachaf> Does it mean "in"?
07:17:55 <shachaf> As in "in Japanese"?
07:18:01 <pikhq> shachaf: In this context, yes.
07:18:15 <shachaf> To which question?
07:18:21 <elliott> I'm going to sleep assholes.
07:18:32 <pikhq> shachaf: Actually, all the ones where "yes" is a sensible answer.
07:18:42 <elliott> All these assholes are so slept.
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07:18:52 <pikhq> "で" is a particle meaning something along the lines of "by means of"...
07:19:24 <shachaf> Hmm, is "ら" a ra?
07:19:28 <pikhq> Yes.
07:19:34 <shachaf> Weird font.
07:19:46 <pikhq> The sentence translates as "You can sleep in Japanese"
07:19:49 <shachaf> And れ is re.
07:19:54 * pikhq nods
07:20:00 <shachaf> rareruno?
07:20:06 <pikhq> Yup.
07:20:09 <shachaf> What does that even mean?
07:20:17 <pikhq> "nihongo de nerareru no"
07:20:33 <shachaf> That big complicated thing is just pronounced "ne"?
07:20:46 <pikhq> japanese-language by-means-of sleep-able explanation
07:20:49 <pikhq> Yes.
07:21:29 <shachaf> So why not just write "ne"?
07:21:35 <shachaf> RIDDLED YOU THERE, DIDN'T I
07:21:56 <zzo38> Perhaps, so that it can be understood
07:22:00 <pikhq> Cause that'd be ね, not 寝.
07:22:12 <zzo38> That is why not just write "ne"
07:22:16 <pikhq> See, so much harder to read.
07:22:27 <shachaf> goode pointe
07:22:45 <zzo38> It has nothing to do with how hard it is to read, but with how hard it is to understand, which is different.
07:22:52 <shachaf> め looks too much like ぬ
07:23:08 <pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:23:28 <shachaf> What does that say?
07:23:37 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of China"
07:23:44 <shachaf> Let's see.
07:23:45 <pikhq> Longest all-kanji phrase I could pull out of my ass.
07:23:48 <shachaf>
07:24:25 <shachaf> 中?
07:24:51 <pikhq> Yes. China is the "middle country" donchano
07:25:14 <pikhq> (they literally thought they were the center of everything so they called themselves that.)
07:25:43 <shachaf> I'm trying to figure out what 中 is.
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07:25:56 <shachaf> Without looking it up. Too easy, right?
07:26:05 <shachaf> pikhq: To be fair, everyone thought they were the center of everything.
07:26:14 <shachaf> What a pity they were all wrong until America came along!
07:26:17 <pikhq> "Middle", "center".
07:26:33 <shachaf> Should I look at it as mouth-thing + line-thing or something?
07:26:42 <pikhq> That is how it's written, yes.
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07:26:50 <shachaf> What's the line-thing?
07:26:56 <pikhq> Just a line.
07:27:02 <zzo38> I am even play mahjong. I know it means center, and in Japanese mahjong this tile is called "chun"
07:27:16 <pikhq> Single line going top-to-bottom.
07:27:33 <pikhq> If you write really fast it ends up looking a little bit like ゆ
07:28:17 <shachaf> OK.
07:28:27 <shachaf> 00:23 < pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:28:38 <shachaf> 華 looks like it has a bunch of things.
07:28:44 <shachaf> Like a rice-field-thing?
07:28:58 <shachaf> I don't really know.
07:29:11 <pikhq> It's... Weird.
07:29:20 <shachaf> What's 華?
07:29:27 <pikhq> I don't think I ever see it outside of 中華.
07:29:40 <shachaf> Which is pronounced how?
07:29:46 <pikhq>
07:29:51 <pikhq> I don't even remember the semantics, cause it's basically only there.
07:29:53 <shachaf> I mean 中華
07:29:58 <pikhq> ちゅうか
07:30:31 <shachaf> OK.
07:30:42 <shachaf> 人 means "life" or "person" or something like that?
07:30:50 <shachaf> I don't remember.
07:30:56 <pikhq> "Person".
07:31:08 <Kray> person or human
07:31:09 <pikhq> Also, I did the wrong damned phrase.
07:31:23 <pikhq> It's only 中華人民共和国
07:31:31 <shachaf> Oh.
07:31:33 <pikhq> "People's Republic of China".
07:31:38 <pikhq> They're not officially democratic.
07:31:57 <shachaf> So, 民
07:32:06 <shachaf> "trombone player"?
07:32:08 <pikhq> "People", in the sense of "people's"
07:32:17 <shachaf> I thought we already had "person".
07:32:35 <pikhq> Yup.
07:33:50 <shachaf> So person-people?
07:34:09 <pikhq> Yeah.
07:34:27 <pikhq> 人民 is "people's", as used in the names of communist countries.
07:34:56 <shachaf> Hm.
07:35:02 <shachaf> What of 和?
07:35:14 <shachaf> That looks like a thing-thing next to a mouth-thing.
07:35:14 <pikhq> "peaceful"-ish
07:35:40 <pikhq> 共和国 cooperative-peaceful-country ish = republic
07:35:54 <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
07:37:33 <kmc> strongly typed pointers, unified ram/disk address space, hardware garbage collection
07:37:37 <kmc> these all sound great
07:38:42 <kmc> also AIUI the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
07:38:57 <shachaf> AS/400 sounds fancy.
07:39:43 * shachaf needs to go to sleep.
07:45:26 * shachaf does.
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07:53:54 <TheConsultant> hi
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10:17:42 <cheater_> kmc: the problem with doing all that in hardware is that you're stuck with it.
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10:19:08 <shubshub> I have a new idea!
10:19:12 <cheater_> i think we've seen many OSes and langs improve considerably especially because they've been designed for a comparably fairly minimal hardware platform
10:19:14 <cheater_> shubshub: do it
10:19:22 <shubshub> Wanna hear about it?
10:19:32 <cheater_> no i want to download an exe
10:19:39 <cheater_> no exe = i have no time for u
10:19:59 <cheater_> j/k what's your idea?
10:20:10 <shubshub> My idea is to create a language built specifically to make games in batch
10:20:18 <cheater_> batch?
10:20:27 <shubshub> Basically you have a script telling it what to d eg
10:20:28 <cheater_> wat
10:20:42 <shubshub> move sprite to newpos
10:20:51 <shubshub> and it will move
10:21:10 <shubshub> Its Geniusi thought it up in a split second
10:21:33 <shubshub> or sprite do shoot enemy at position x y
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10:22:11 <shubshub> if sprite do shoot enemy at x y results miss do sprite do shoot enemy at new position x y
10:22:41 <shubshub> Its going to be so AWESOME!
10:22:56 <shubshub> I shall call it
10:23:10 <shubshub> BatchMove
10:23:29 <kmc> cheater_: well like i said the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
10:23:39 <kmc> and i think you can use those native instructions too
10:24:10 <kmc> if you specify garbage collection instructions then in the worst case you implement them in software, as now
10:25:31 <shubshub> game start with player at position x y and enemy at position x y and not win
10:26:02 <shubshub> anyway ima go work on this new language wish me luck
10:29:02 <cheater_> kmc: yeah but you also mentioned hardware features
10:29:07 <cheater_> hw gc..
10:29:25 <cheater_> were typed pointers a hw thing?
10:29:58 <kmc> that one is probably hard to emulate without hardware support
10:30:10 <cheater_> man, i've spent way too much time reading up on vintage op amps.
10:30:21 <kmc> haha, why
10:30:23 <cheater_> kmc: you just have a software gc, no?
10:30:27 <cheater_> because i am interested
10:30:36 <cheater_> i'm big on recording equipment and stuff
10:30:50 <cheater_> and i hit a link about the jensen 990 randomly
10:30:58 <cheater_> last time i searched for that stuff i could find nothing
10:31:05 <cheater_> now the web's full of that stuff
10:31:30 <cheater_> $ ls op\ amps/ -1A | wc -l
10:31:30 <cheater_> 66
10:31:57 <cheater_> that's mostly just info about 4 different op amps
10:32:08 <cheater_> so that was my last 3 hours
10:32:38 <cheater_> did u kno: the first op amps were just pcb's with components on 'em
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10:33:06 <cheater_> then they started potting that stuff in resin and calling it an "integrated circuit"
10:33:22 <cheater_> the nice thing about discrete op amps is that they have amazing headroom
10:33:29 <cheater_> and lots of current capability
10:33:39 <cheater_> so they are really good for like, high-end mixers
10:34:22 <cheater_> you can get really low noise too
10:35:07 <cheater_> in the meantime i ended up listening to biosphere - cirque and it totally put me in the zone gathering info about that stuff
10:35:20 <cheater_> that guy's music is fairly hypnotic
10:36:47 <cheater_> hey kmc, do you know of anything in linux that could slow down disk io considerably?
10:37:11 <cheater_> maybe some sort of debug libs or a misconfiguration
10:38:19 <cheater_> i've noticed for some time my pc's disk operation was very slow, but i thought it was just a bit older than usual, but now i started comparing that with network IO and it's much faster when i get data from the network directly, without hdd access
10:38:37 <cheater_> e.g. browser using or not using a local squid instance
10:39:02 <kmc> it's expected that network IO to a good server over a fast pipe will be faster than a shitty local hard drive
10:39:03 <cheater_> flash videos while it's buffering vs while it's done downloading (the former really ends up skipping around)
10:39:12 <kmc> this sounds severe though
10:39:25 <kmc> echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/block_dump
10:39:27 <cheater_> well notice that just a pending download in youtube can slow things down
10:39:34 <kmc> that will start to spew block layer events to the system log
10:39:38 <kmc> maybe you see something in there
10:39:46 <kmc> misconfiguration of the block device can do it too
10:39:53 <cheater_> this is an old ubuntu
10:39:58 <kmc> check hdparm, maybe dma is disabled or something
10:39:59 <cheater_> i think i started with 8.something
10:40:03 <cheater_> i will
10:40:06 <kmc> boot a livecd and see if block performance gets better
10:40:13 <cheater_> is there a filemon for linux?
10:40:22 <kmc> i don't know what filemon is
10:40:37 <cheater_> filemon is a windows thing from sysinternals, shows you all file operations happening on your pc
10:40:43 <cheater_> debugger
10:41:07 <cheater_> i thought maybe linux is doing something like that and reporting it to some api and hogging down because of this
10:41:38 <kmc> i don't know how to get all file events on linux
10:41:45 <cheater_> how about some file events
10:41:46 <kmc> you can get them for individual files/directories using inotify
10:41:47 <cheater_> or most file events
10:41:52 <cheater_> hmm
10:41:58 <cheater_> maybe there's some sort of inotify fuckup
10:41:58 <kmc> oh also check iotop
10:42:04 <kmc> and see if some program is hogging the IO bandwidth
10:42:19 <cheater_> i'd know that, the hdds would be running constantly
10:42:20 <cheater_> but it's not that
10:42:31 <kmc> ok
10:42:33 <cheater_> it's like, every time there's file io it has a constant wait time
10:42:47 <cheater_> or constant cpu time
10:43:18 <kmc> how about IO scheduler settings
10:43:20 <kmc> cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
10:43:31 <kmc> and then i think there are a bunch of tunables
10:43:35 <kmc> but i don't know what to do with them
10:44:06 <cheater_> example: in gnome press alt-f2 and you get a popup for running a program
10:44:18 <cheater_> i press alt-f2 and while i'm typing it tries to autocomplete or something
10:44:27 <cheater_> and the window freezes for like half a second
10:44:55 <cheater_> however if i quickly type, e.g. nm-applet, and press enter, then it closes the window immediately and starts the program
10:45:32 <cheater_> while doing that i look at iotop but nothing conclusive happens
10:45:59 <cheater_> gnome-panel (which is what spawns the window) shows up at the top of iotop but for a split second and it doesn't bump any summaries
10:46:46 <cheater_> actually the last one was a lie, it does bump "total disk read" but only to like 800 K/s
10:47:09 <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops
10:47:09 <fizzie> There's that new blktrace thing for IO tracing.
10:48:21 <cheater_> # hdparm -d /dev/sda4
10:48:21 <cheater_> /dev/sda4:
10:48:21 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:30 <cheater_> # hdparm -d /dev/sda
10:48:30 <cheater_> /dev/sda:
10:48:30 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:54 <cheater_> manual says: -d get/set using_dma flag
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10:49:22 <fizzie> "hdparm -i" should show the mode it's using with a *.
10:49:54 <fizzie> I suppose using_dma is some sort of a specific thing for a specific case.
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10:51:19 <cheater_> UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
10:52:46 <cheater_> hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s, that shouldn't be so bad then
10:52:58 <cheater_> can it be that something in linux is eating cpu while i'm writing to disk?
10:53:32 <cheater_> i'm using gvfs for some things, but of course not for the root (which is what would be written to and read from by all the cases i described)
10:56:54 <cheater_> maybe it's even something in gnome - do e.g. flash or firefox use some sort of gnome api for fs access?
10:57:45 <kmc> flash would use firefox for fs access
10:57:51 <kmc> i don't think firefox uses gvfs but it's possible
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11:00:41 <cheater_> oh the gvfs thing and the flash/firefox disk access thing were separate ideas
11:00:56 <cheater_> i don't think firefox would be like.. specifically using some sort of gvfs api.
11:02:52 <kmc> well you said "some sort of gnome api"
11:02:59 <cheater_> yeah you're right
11:04:32 <cheater_> # cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
11:04:32 <cheater_> noop deadline [cfq]
11:04:56 <kmc> ok, cfq is the default and is usually sensible
11:05:18 <cheater_> "hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s" < that should've been -t
11:05:47 <mroman_> What's the smallest turing-complete esolang?
11:05:54 <mroman_> And by smallest i mean "least instructions"
11:06:14 <kmc> one instruction
11:06:19 <mroman_> (without production rules or i/o)
11:06:31 <kmc> subtract and branch if negative
11:07:38 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq
11:08:30 <cheater_> <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops < there's not much gnome to kill really, i've got gnome-panel, gdm-simple-slave, gnome-keyring-daemon, gnome-session, polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1, gnome-power-manager, gnome-screensaver, /usr/lib/gnome-disk-utility/gdu-notification-daemon,
11:09:26 <cheater_> why a disk utility needs a daemon is beyond me though
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11:20:06 <cheater_> kmc: do you use gnome 2?
11:20:29 <kmc> i'm... not really sure
11:20:37 <cheater_> what ubuntu are you on?
11:20:45 <kmc> the one that's actually debian
11:20:49 <kmc> debian unstable
11:20:56 <kmc> i don't have a gnome login session
11:21:01 <kmc> my preferred amount of gnome is 0
11:21:11 <cheater_> oh
11:21:16 <cheater_> :(
11:21:23 <kmc> but i like to use certain applications which in turn launch various of those gnome daemons
11:21:37 <kmc> every so often I will get annoyed and try to disable most of them
11:21:37 <cheater_> yeah i need you to be using gnome-panel though
11:21:48 <kmc> why
11:21:52 <kmc> i have no panel or status bar of any kind
11:21:57 <cheater_> because i want someone to strace their gnome-panel
11:22:01 <cheater_> so that i can compair
11:22:12 <kmc> you should ask #ubuntu
11:22:15 <kmc> [troll suggestion]
11:22:24 <cheater_> they use gnome 3
11:22:26 <cheater_> which is inferior
11:22:48 <kmc> not all of them do
11:23:07 <cheater_> tru troll
11:23:21 <kmc> 10.04 LTS desktop is still supported
11:23:21 <cheater_> !trollcoins kmc +20
11:23:29 <kmc> and was the most recent LTS until like last week
11:23:37 <cheater_> it only gets strong arm support
11:23:50 <cheater_> if you know what i mean
11:23:53 <kmc> no
11:24:09 <cheater_> kinda like those parents that beat their children because they "love them"
11:24:35 <cheater_> 10.04 is that kind of abuse case i guess
11:24:43 <kmc> right then
11:24:55 <cheater_> i'll troll #gnome
11:27:49 <kmc> cheater_: what should i do next for mosh
11:29:57 <cheater_> make it use 1 port
11:30:21 <cheater_> also: 32 bit color
11:32:07 <qfr> Add an audio player
11:33:01 <cheater_> troll suggestion: hidden cmdline switch that engages a plasma visual
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11:35:39 <kmc> screw 32-bit color
11:35:44 <kmc> double-precision HDR floating point
11:37:33 <cheater_> ++
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13:08:54 <nortti> Yay! Got my system unfucked. ^_^
13:12:33 <kmc> what was the fuckage?
13:13:45 <nortti> kmc: /sbin/init was broken
13:15:03 <kmc> that'll do it
13:15:10 <Lumpio-> Happens
13:15:19 <kmc> how does it happen?
13:15:32 <Lumpio-> dunno
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13:15:47 <Lumpio-> I once fixed a server that had an error in a shellscript inside initrd
13:15:56 <Lumpio-> Or well, busybox itself didn't quite run correctly
13:15:59 <Lumpio-> Weird, weird boot failures.
13:16:51 <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
13:17:53 -!- augur has joined.
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13:19:02 <Lumpio-> ...my thing had somehow gotten a busybox that wouldn't work correctly in an early boot environment
13:19:15 <Lumpio-> It wanted procfs to be mounted to work correctly
13:19:28 <Lumpio-> Which was one of the things the shellscript it was supposed to run was supposed to do.
13:19:35 <Lumpio-> So it didn't quite work.
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13:25:29 <kmc> out of curiosity, which distros were the two of you using
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13:55:49 <qfr> Arch Gentoo
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15:25:59 <esolang_1234> Hey... I have an idea for an esolang
15:26:33 <esolang_1234> but I don't have a wiki account :(
15:26:54 <esolang_1234> Can someone create it for me?
15:26:59 <esolang_1234> I'
15:27:08 <esolang_1234> I'll give the info.
15:33:02 -!- esolang_1234 has left.
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15:36:05 <esolang_1234> I guess I left by accident.
15:36:18 <esolang_1234> Anyway, i'm leaving anyway.
15:36:31 <esolang_1234> Does anyone have a BF quine?
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15:47:03 <Gregor> @tell esolang_1234 1) You don't need an account on the wiki to make a page, anonymous editing is allowed. 2) There are no sensitive credentials required to create an account, why not just make one?
15:47:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:48:09 <kmc> there should be esolangs named BF and Brainf*ck and Brainf**k, each vastly different from Brainfuck
15:49:02 <Gregor> BF is Befunge ;)
15:50:25 <kmc> of course
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15:59:43 <itidus21> i wonder if multitasking increases cases of internet addiction. as drowning in browser tabs can tell us, when men (i simply do not know about women) have the opportunity to multitask they create for themselves task-debt
16:01:03 <itidus21> moreover that one of the fundamental differences between how we do things with a computer and without is probably the multitasking
16:01:32 <kmc> i like how you assume this is gender dimorphic for no reason
16:01:51 <kmc> and by "like" i mean "kill all humans"
16:02:02 <itidus21> reason = a lifetime of growing up being told women are better at multitasking
16:02:42 <itidus21> as for the task thing, im wrong about that too of course since multi tasking is about cpu time more than user interface time
16:03:23 <itidus21> and maybe that xerox didn't get a chance to finish these GUI ideas before they got rushed out the gate by apple/microsoft
16:05:49 -!- itidus20 has joined.
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16:08:49 <itidus22> *&^&*$$^%$%^$^%
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16:12:31 <kmc> looks like you're multitasking itidus21
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16:26:58 <cheater_> but only 3-way
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16:30:33 <itidus21> back
16:31:26 <itidus21> so my concern is not so much with process or application multitasking, but specifically user interface multitasking
16:33:03 <itidus21> although it has it's uses, theres probably better ways it could be done.. i guess unix/linux command line users have already known this a long time
16:34:23 <itidus21> like.. in windows.. i often find myself opening a notepad to transfer a piece of text between two apps
16:34:58 <itidus21> but somehow i imagine on a command line theres just "better" ways such needs are met
16:35:49 <itidus21> and often it's for formatting... like to remove linebreaks when posting in irc.
16:37:55 <itidus21> to make matters worse, with regard to the broswer, each tab having it's own history.. there should really be a tree to map those links
16:38:21 <itidus21> instead of an array of tab histories
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16:40:17 <itidus21> in general, i don't think it is of much benefit for me to start doing 30 things with computer before i have finished the first 1
16:41:32 <olsner> you should probably start by making sure it's of benefit for you to do anything at all
16:41:56 <olsner> (I have decided that it's better for me to do nothing at all, for example)
16:43:21 <itidus21> i don't think anyone else here has any such problem.. so yeah.. if anyone wants to buy deranged ranting services.. you know where to call
16:43:41 <kmc> but why would i pay when i get it for free?
16:44:35 <itidus21> even snake venom is useful for developing antivenom
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16:45:20 <elliott> 07:35:54: <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
16:45:42 <elliott> yeah, but I suspect it'd have been doomed to slowness with the rest of the "true" CISCs
16:46:01 <olsner> oh noes, did I miss a discussion about mainframes?
16:46:13 <elliott> sort of
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16:50:18 <itidus21> olsner: i will consider that. (those 2 posts) is as good as anything the chinese have ever written.
16:50:51 <kmc> what
16:51:11 <itidus21> the 2 lines he put before elliott arrived
16:51:18 <kmc> what about the chinese
16:51:44 <itidus21> well it sounds like the kind of thing they would say in their ancient philosophies
16:52:02 <itidus21> now i didnt word this well
16:52:20 <itidus21> but i actually think the chinese elucidated some of the most concise and minimialist philosophical advice
16:52:45 <olsner> A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!"
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16:53:06 <olsner> itidus21: stuff like that is what they say in "the ancient philosophies"
16:53:27 <itidus21> hmpf
16:53:28 <olsner> itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
16:53:43 <itidus21> ahh koans.
16:53:47 <olsner> Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?
16:53:53 <itidus21> ive not really looked into them
16:53:58 <nortti> does anyone know how to change keyboard config for linux virtual consoles
16:54:06 <elliott> 13:16:51: <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
16:54:12 <elliott> and this is why package managers need atomic updates
16:54:14 <elliott> (*cough* nix)
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:25:59: <esolang_1234> Hey... I have an idea for an esolang
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:33: <esolang_1234> but I don't have a wiki account :(
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:54: <esolang_1234> Can someone create it for me?
16:54:48 <kmc> yeah i was trying to remember if Debian did this right or if I've just never interrupted an upgrade this way
16:54:50 <elliott> 15:26:59: <esolang_1234> I'
16:54:52 <elliott> 15:27:08: <esolang_1234> I'll give the info.
16:54:53 <nortti> elliott: How would that have helped? the binary itself was corrupted
16:54:54 <elliott> lol
16:54:58 <elliott> kmc: debian doesn't do it right in the general case
16:55:07 <elliott> nortti: because the power would have cut before the binary would be swapped
16:55:13 <elliott> which would happen at the very end of the update process, atomically
16:55:31 <elliott> kmc: but it might have some special hacks for important packages, dunno
16:55:42 <elliott> I don't know of any package manager than Nix that can update more than one package atomically
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16:57:29 <elliott> olsner: like two hands clapping but half as loud
16:57:30 <elliott> because there's only one
16:57:33 <elliott> hope that helps
16:57:39 <olsner> elliott: thanks
16:57:57 <kmc> elliott: you cracked the code
16:58:04 <kmc> we need to get you on the phone to the Pope of China immediately
16:58:11 <elliott> buddhism is over
16:58:14 <kmc> yep
16:58:17 <kmc> checkmate buddha
16:58:30 <elliott> silly hindus and their koans
16:58:38 <kmc> ice cream koan
16:58:59 <elliott> Isn't it ko-AN?
16:59:36 <kmc> isn't it?
16:59:42 <elliott> Well, "cone" isn't pronounced ko-AN.
16:59:52 <elliott> It's COH-nn or something.
17:00:08 <Gregor> Yes, it's pronounced ko-ahn. That's not really enough to ruin the pun.
17:00:27 <kmc> a good pun is impossible to ruin
17:00:53 <elliott> Puin.
17:01:49 <elliott> Shoe-in for a puin.
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17:03:33 <elliott> Gregor: Where's all the economy giraffes?
17:03:55 <Gregor> elliott: No soap, radio!
17:04:19 <elliott> How dare you.
17:04:47 <olsner> no soup, no radish
17:09:07 <kmc> radish sort
17:09:50 <cheater_> bobble sort
17:32:59 <Gregor> Bubble bobble sort
17:33:06 <Gregor> (Best sort)
17:35:40 <cheater_> i already implied that Gregor
17:35:43 <cheater_> mensch Gregor
17:42:47 <elliott> kmc: look at this great haskell question http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/10521189/1
17:44:00 <kmc> how can i resist
17:44:25 <cheater_> you've trolled newbies a million times
17:44:40 <cheater_> you don't go for easy things like that any more
17:47:05 <kmc> elliott: nowhere is it advertised as a haskell question
17:47:10 <elliott> wrong
17:47:12 <elliott> take a look at the bottom
17:47:20 <elliott> they tagged it [haskell]
17:47:38 <kmc> edited one minute ago by don stewart
17:47:39 <kmc> haha
17:48:32 <kmc> i like that it allows the input file to inject arbitrary code
17:48:34 <cheater_> i guess he's back from his hiatus
17:48:40 <cheater_> when are you back from your hiatus kmc
17:48:48 <kmc> dunno
17:48:58 <kmc> arbitrary code injection is par for the course in C hacks
17:49:07 <kmc> but it takes some skill to get it in Python hacks
17:49:43 <kmc> "Convert it to a while loop. You are hitting recursion limits, basically, so if you remove the recursion, your problem should go away"
17:52:26 -!- nortti has joined.
17:53:36 <elliott> that's python for you
17:53:54 -!- rszeno has joined.
17:53:54 <elliott> oh wait
17:53:57 <elliott> i didn't actually read the code
17:53:59 <elliott> heh
17:54:09 <elliott> `welcome rszeno
17:54:17 <HackEgo> rszeno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:55:13 <rszeno> thank you elliot, alredy read it, this is why i'm here
17:56:49 <zzo38> Good.
17:58:03 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:58:15 <Ngevd> Hellooooooo!
17:58:55 <zzo38> I say the free category is not a forward category transformer any more than the free monoid is a forward monoid transformer, but both are valid backward transformers.
17:59:09 <zzo38> Is it?
17:59:48 <Ngevd> Category transformers: monads in disguise
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18:00:36 <zzo38> Ngevd: No, I mean functors, where it is a general functor which can act on any category to a new one, instead of a normal functor which is only from one category to another
18:01:05 <Ngevd> zzo38, I'm still less than a novice at category theory. I was making a Transformers pun
18:01:23 <zzo38> (The free monad is also a backward monad transformer, not a forward one)
18:02:32 <zzo38> Ngevd: Then learn, from Wikipedia and so on
18:04:52 -!- itidus20 has joined.
18:08:20 <Ngevd> itidus20, want to learn category theory with me?
18:08:46 <elliott> stop
18:08:55 <itidus20> probably not a good time considering i keep having connection dropouts
18:09:06 <elliott> stope
18:09:08 <elliott> tope
18:09:09 <elliott> topee
18:09:11 <elliott> opee
18:09:15 <elliott> opeee
18:09:17 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:09:18 <elliott> peee
18:09:19 <elliott> peeee
18:09:21 <elliott> eeee
18:09:23 <elliott> eeees
18:09:27 <elliott> eees
18:09:28 <elliott> eeest
18:09:30 <elliott> eest
18:09:32 <elliott> eesto
18:09:35 <elliott> esto
18:09:36 <elliott> estop
18:09:37 <elliott> stop
18:10:19 <itidus20> i must say i have recently seen videos advising people about the difficulty of getting a math phd.. and i am probably more out of my ballpark than i realize
18:10:34 <itidus20> even though, category theory is 2 innocent words.. both of which i already feel familiar with
18:11:06 <Ngevd> Words mean little, they only work in combination
18:11:08 <itidus20> category being.. lets say.. horror movies.. versus romance movies.. theory being
18:11:50 <itidus20> for people like me it's an imagined explanation for something... more formally it means something more formal
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18:13:38 <itidus20> i assume (wrongly) that all i need to know about category theory could be summarized in 2 - 3 neat paragraphs written in simple english.
18:13:52 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦ dafuk
18:14:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:♦
18:14:57 <elliott> If you don't want a confusing page that breaks the site layout like that, bring it up on the talk page :P
18:16:24 <zzo38> itidus20: If you think so, then see if the Simple English Wikipedia has such an article
18:16:31 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:16:37 <Ngevd> Hello!
18:16:37 <itidus20> i don't think so
18:16:47 <itidus20> i wishfully think so
18:16:59 <elliott> hgfrtyuiolpo
18:17:05 <zzo38> Then look at the normal Wikipedia
18:17:31 <itidus20> i probably couldn't learn it in 5 years
18:18:30 <itidus20> i havent tested my intellect.. i don't know in practice what i am capable of or not
18:18:42 <itidus20> but then..
18:18:58 <itidus20> the ability to overcome laziness certainly must help a lot.. and easily discountable
18:20:51 <zzo38> Simply, a category consists of a set of objects, and morphisms, each of which has a source and target. If you have a morphism with source A and target B, and another with source B and target C, they can be composed, and composition is associative. There is also an identity morphism for each object, with the source and target both that object.
18:21:19 <zzo38> That is what it is. Is this OK?
18:21:37 <itidus20> it will shut me up :D
18:21:44 <kmc> amazing
18:24:37 <elliott> I didn't know that was possible.
18:25:01 <elliott> 19:24 <playings> I have to login there at mantis main_page. My online gaming account does not seem to qualify for this
18:31:14 <nortti> remotely rebooting machine is a bit strange experience
18:31:49 <elliott> Oh, pyralspite finally died.
18:32:04 <elliott> Or at least, it doesn't respond to pings.
18:32:35 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/ieMS weird
18:39:46 <zzo38> I don't like Haskell's deleteBy function; whose idea was that? I have replaced them by: deleteF :: MonadLogic m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x;
18:40:55 <rszeno> elliot: is up and running but reject icmp
18:40:59 <elliott> zzo38: congrats, you have replaced deleteBy with filter . (not .)
18:41:26 <elliott> rszeno: strange. its httpd is dead too. it's a VPS, so I guess the machine itself is down but their routing is doing something funny
18:41:34 <elliott> it'll probably disappear soon
18:41:36 <zzo38> elliott: No, it only delete the first one!!
18:41:43 <elliott> zzo38: oh
18:42:18 <zzo38> (That is what the MonadLogic constraint is for, so that you can tell which one is first; if you don't care then you use MonadPlus, which is what my version of filter uses)
18:43:08 <cheater_> kmc: what's hackin'
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18:52:08 <elliott> Taneb: Hey, remind me to ask Graue to redirect esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/* to the corresponding esolangs.org archive.
18:52:47 <cheater_> kmc: i thought of your brain feedback device when i saw: http://www.valkee.com/uk/science.html
18:55:19 <itidus20> brain feedback.. well i certainly have some views about such things which would not sit well
18:55:43 <oklopol> itidus20: category theory isn't really a very active field afaik
18:55:45 <itidus20> but naturally that means i am going to go ahead
18:55:59 <nortti> (think I (are s-expressions (pretty easy to understand)))
18:57:01 <itidus20> the slowness of the muscles of the fingers, and of the eyes scanning text, etc.. provides a buffer to prevent humans being overworked
18:57:24 <itidus20> but.. if the brain is reached directly bypassing the rest.. then the buffer is in danger
18:57:43 <zzo38> oklopol: However, category theory can make a lot of things! (Including, category with one object for a monoid, a thin category of a partial ordering (since they have the same laws), etc)
18:57:46 <oklopol> itidus20: well you've seen all you need to know about categories now, so let's do number theory. 0 is a number and if n is a number then S(n) is a number.
18:57:56 <itidus20> the work required will expand to meet the labour available, and everyone will basically be a lot sadder for it
18:59:01 <Taneb> elliott, I'm too busy trying not to fall asleep
19:00:00 <itidus20> and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?) will be lost.. further removed from potential utopia
19:00:41 <elliott> Taneb: rip
19:00:49 <itidus20> oklopol: i didn't say i read what zzo said >:)
19:02:06 <oklopol> zzo38: for me at least, category theory is most useful in that you can describe certain ubiquitous phenomena with universal properties. because that is nice.
19:02:50 <itidus20> afk--
19:03:14 <itidus20> i don't need to say that.. sorry
19:04:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, that is one of the things it does. But it also does a large number of other things.
19:06:47 <oklopol> i don't think the fact that groups, monoids and partial orders can be thought of as categories is very useful for the common working mathematician.
19:07:27 -!- esolang_1234 has joined.
19:08:21 <oklopol> "itidus20 and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?)..." it is true that work makes life easier for people, yes.
19:08:45 <oklopol> if no one worked, there would be nothing to eat.
19:09:09 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:09:29 <elliott> hi esolang_1234
19:09:34 <esolang_1234> hi elliott
19:09:34 <lambdabot> esolang_1234: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:09:53 <oklopol> zzo38: btw disclaimer: it is possible that you know more about category theory than me, since i don't know anything about it.
19:10:07 <esolang_1234> Oh. Ok Gregor.
19:10:11 <elliott> esolang_1234: I saw your messages in the logs; you can edit the wiki anonymously, you just have to fill out a CAPTCHA
19:10:23 <elliott> but the registration process is simple (it doesn't require an email or anything)
19:10:27 <oklopol> with category theory, i feel i have to mention this fact, since in all other branches of mathematics, none of you ever compare to my divine excellence.
19:10:33 <esolang_1234> But I really * Ack(4,3) don't like giving my ip address to the public.
19:10:43 <oklopol> oerjan is just me in a disguise
19:10:47 <elliott> register an account, then; that doesn't expose your IP to anyone but administrators
19:10:58 <esolang_1234> I also don't like registering :(
19:11:05 <elliott> it's just a username and password :p
19:11:07 <esolang_1234> I know. I don't know why.
19:11:14 <elliott> esolang_1234: but uh
19:11:16 <elliott> hate to break it to you but
19:11:19 <elliott> 20:07 esolang_1234 has joined (40d8777d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
19:11:23 <kmc> hi, i want to edit your website but i am unwilling to do it in any of the supported ways
19:11:26 <esolang_1234> I know.
19:11:32 <kmc> so plz accommodate me specially
19:11:39 <esolang_1234> Not as many people read the logs, though.
19:11:44 <esolang_1234> At least I think...
19:11:54 <oklopol> could someone please put that ip on the front page
19:12:04 <elliott> a few people read the logs regularly... probably slightly less than read recentchanges
19:12:08 <elliott> oklopol: don't do that
19:12:10 <oklopol> esolang_1234: anyway i'm like you, i understand.
19:12:14 <elliott> I'll hide the revision if anyone does
19:12:14 <esolang_1234> Thanks
19:12:27 <oklopol> took me years to make an account, and i don't like using it
19:12:29 <esolang_1234> Still, I don't have experience editting.
19:12:47 <Taneb> Oh, that reminds me
19:13:00 <elliott> esolang_1234: a few of the users (mostly me and oerjan) clean up pages formatting-wise after they're created
19:13:02 <Taneb> I still need to define Dilston
19:13:17 <oklopol> Taneb: what's dilston?
19:13:25 <esolang_1234> elliott: I'm at school, and esolangs.org is blocked
19:13:28 <Taneb> It's a hamlet to the East of Hexham
19:13:33 <esolang_1234> Suprising, this isn't.
19:13:34 <elliott> we're blocked from schools? :D
19:13:37 <oklopol> elliott: don't do what btw, say things like that or actually do it?
19:13:39 <esolang_1234> the wiki is
19:13:40 <elliott> what does it block us as?
19:13:46 <elliott> oklopol: don't put the IP on the main page
19:13:48 <esolang_1234> Let me check.
19:13:59 <esolang_1234> "unknown"
19:14:05 <oklopol> elliott: do you think i know how to do that? :D
19:14:05 <Taneb> oklopol, also a future esolang that can only be Turing complete if the collatz conjecture is false
19:14:09 <esolang_1234> conwaylife.com is also blocked.
19:14:11 <elliott> :( lame, they couldn't even give us a proper reason
19:14:16 <Taneb> esolang_1234, email of the people blocking?
19:14:18 <elliott> i bet they just block all wikis or someting
19:14:20 <esolang_1234> They do that for almost everything.
19:14:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:14:39 <Taneb> Hello ais523
19:14:40 <elliott> hi ais523
19:14:59 <esolang_1234> Hi ais523
19:14:59 <Taneb> Hang on
19:15:09 <elliott> hanging
19:15:10 <oklopol> elliott: it's all because brainfuck isn't censored.
19:15:10 <Taneb> esolang_1234, esolangs.org is blocked, but IRC isn't!?
19:15:14 <ais523> hi people who said hi to me
19:15:21 <ais523> hi everyone else
19:15:22 <oklopol> hi ais523
19:15:30 <elliott> oklopol: i'll move the page to b****fuck :)
19:15:43 <oklopol> okay, then i'm sure everything will be fine
19:15:48 <elliott> ais523: what about the people who neither said hi to you nor didn't?
19:15:55 <elliott> oh, hmm
19:15:56 <esolang_1234> Taneb: Yeah.
19:16:03 <elliott> you phrased it in such a way as to avoid the excluded middle
19:16:03 <elliott> pah
19:16:10 <elliott> although, hmm
19:16:10 <oklopol> so i was reading up on ordinals today
19:16:15 <oklopol> that shit is fucked up
19:16:17 <Taneb> esolang_1234, weird
19:16:17 <oklopol> seriously
19:16:23 <elliott> I guess you could say that there could be elements of S in neither S nor S - T
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19:16:33 <Taneb> esolang_1234, can you upload a screenshot of the "this page is blocked" page?
19:16:36 <oklopol> i was like o__o the whole time
19:16:42 <elliott> Taneb: it'll probably be a boring standard thing
19:16:48 <elliott> I doubt anyone's gone out of their way to block esolangs.org specifically
19:16:52 <Taneb> elliott, at least there may be an email
19:16:54 <oklopol> and by that i mean i felt like an inverse skateboard
19:16:56 <elliott> it's not exactly a massively popular timewasting site...
19:17:00 <oklopol> because it was so absurd
19:17:01 <elliott> Taneb: they probably consider the block valid
19:17:14 <esolang_1234> Taneb: No, I don't use file uploading things.
19:17:36 <Taneb> esolang_1234, does the block page list an email address?
19:17:50 <esolang_1234> No.
19:17:56 <esolang_1234> At least I don't think so
19:18:13 <Taneb> I remember once the recent pages page of the wiki was blocked in my school
19:18:16 <rszeno> proxy or firewall?
19:18:16 <Taneb> For gambling reasons
19:18:24 <elliott> We do a lot of gambling on Esolang.
19:18:33 <Taneb> http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/ohno.png
19:18:37 <Taneb> Good times
19:18:43 <elliott> Did you call the number?
19:19:01 <Taneb> Yes, the office was closed
19:19:02 <elliott> Man, remember when the c in Special:Recentchanges was lowercase?
19:19:02 <kmc> "i bet you $50 the next esolang is a brainfuck derivative"
19:19:10 <elliott> Good times.
19:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: Have you been sending me /msgs?
19:20:25 <cheater_> what properties would a language need so that the cost of execution of a program can be calculated
19:20:29 <oklopol> was esolang_1234 going to up a lang or what was this about, i haven't really been reading any of the lines?
19:20:34 <cheater_> total cost
19:20:45 <esolang_1234> Sort of.
19:20:57 <esolang_1234> It was based on wires and logic gates.
19:21:01 <esolang_1234> Now don't take my idea.
19:21:13 <Taneb> esolang_1234, been done at least twice?
19:21:15 <oklopol> :D
19:21:43 <nortti> Taneb: three times at leadt
19:21:46 <oklopol> does "don't take my idea" imply "and that's it", because it sounds like it
19:21:59 <elliott> esolang_1234: but that's what one of My Name is Johny, What the F**K?'s designs was basde on too!
19:22:03 <elliott> you might want to check out WireWorld, btw
19:22:03 <esolang_1234> Taneb: I don't think so.
19:22:11 <elliott> which we don't have an article on; what an injustice
19:22:27 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sir._Cut for one
19:22:28 <oklopol> or do you have a CRAZY twist
19:22:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb too, perhaps
19:22:34 <oklopol> does your language have ordinals
19:23:01 <esolang_1234> Well, mines more like (-1,-1)Input (0,0)Xor (1,1)Out (-1,-1)>(0,0) (0,0)>(1,1)
19:23:06 <esolang_1234> Wait
19:23:10 <esolang_1234> Change the Xor to not
19:23:17 <ion> Finished Portal 1. It was very good but quite short.
19:23:29 <esolang_1234> And that would be a sort of bitinvertercat
19:24:44 <oklopol> k
19:25:13 <esolang_1234> Basicly, signals travel on wires, and get input at STDin and output at SDTout
19:25:19 <esolang_1234> *STD
19:26:16 <esolang_1234> Not=If no sig, sig Or=If at least one sig, sig And=If all possible sigs, sig (like vNCA) Xor=If sum of sigs is odd, sig
19:26:57 <oklopol> yeah i got it
19:27:03 <esolang_1234> Probably TC
19:27:24 <esolang_1234> and if you make a page for it, (IDK if you don't) can you name it LogicWire?
19:27:26 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, no.
19:27:41 <esolang_1234> Lol, like anyone would want to make a page for it.
19:28:15 <oklopol> how much do you know about logical circuits?
19:28:30 <esolang_1234> Not much. Just Xor, and, flipflop...
19:28:33 <nortti> esolang_1234: why do you think it is TC?
19:28:36 <esolang_1234> Idk
19:28:42 <elliott> esolang_1234: does it have any kind of looping?
19:28:43 <esolang_1234> Random thought.
19:28:48 <oklopol> flip flop is already something
19:28:50 <elliott> can you write a program that runs forever, for instance?
19:28:58 <esolang_1234> Each sig affects the logic gates it points too.
19:29:01 <nortti> esola
19:29:02 <esolang_1234> elliott:
19:29:05 <esolang_1234> Yes.
19:29:14 <oklopol> if there's a concept of time, then this is probably tc
19:29:29 <esolang_1234> Just make a loop with Or gates, and connect one of the wires to STDout.
19:29:35 <oklopol> in the sense that a periodic infinite configuration can do arbitrary computation
19:29:36 <elliott> OK
19:29:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight stupid sleep cycles).
19:29:47 <nortti> esolang_1234: is is possible to use unlimited amount of memory
19:29:54 <esolang_1234> Should be.
19:29:59 <oklopol> ?
19:30:27 <esolang_1234> Well, I guess you should be able to define unlimited wires.
19:30:50 <esolang_1234> (0,0)Xor (0,1)And... (0,2)>(3,5)Sig
19:30:56 <esolang_1234> And so on.
19:31:52 <esolang_1234> I guess (x,y)<gate> defines a gate at x,y
19:31:57 <nortti> esolang_1234: unlimited as in unbouded storage machine's tape, not as in LBA's tape
19:32:05 <esolang_1234> Oh.
19:32:09 <esolang_1234> Hadn't thought about that :(
19:32:17 <esolang_1234> Well, finite state automaton?
19:32:52 <nortti> esolang_1234: seems like it
19:33:43 <oklopol> if you allow a way to describe infinite configurations, this will be more interesting though.
19:33:58 <esolang_1234> Hmm... Possible.
19:34:06 <nortti> "Crowd of people gathered on a street to watch two criminals being hanged to death, which was like the 19th century equivalent of a reality show (but somehow more tasteful)."
19:34:20 <oklopol> it's not really something that's been explored much
19:34:32 <esolang_1234> Maybe a "Copy (x,y)...(x,y)>(a,b) 15 Units"
19:34:48 <esolang_1234> And you might be able to make a TC
19:34:55 <esolang_1234> I mean TM :P
19:34:56 <oklopol> you mean at runtime?
19:35:45 <esolang_1234> I don't know. I never thought this would be so confusing. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be TC
19:36:16 <oklopol> see if, once the program has been written, there's a limit on the amount of states where it can be during the run of the program, then you cannot have TCness with most definitions.
19:36:16 <esolang_1234> And making a copy command will make the interpreter solve the halting problem.
19:37:21 <esolang_1234> Of course, makeing a build "gate" might make it TC, but it would be TC (too complicated).
19:37:59 <oklopol> because if you can bound the maximal number of states the program can use before you start running it, then you can, algorithmically, decide whether it halts or not (or whether it will behave in a certain way)
19:38:27 <oklopol> i don't really get what you're saying
19:38:35 <oklopol> why would the interpreter need to solve the halting problem?
19:38:38 <nortti> esolang_1234: how does adding copy command make interpreter solve halting problem?
19:39:22 <esolang_1234> IDK. I was thinking about mutiple TMs interacting.
19:39:49 <oklopol> okay i was thinking about butterflies when i wrote mine
19:40:07 <esolang_1234> ...Maybe make a butterfly sim program?
19:40:11 <oklopol> ooh
19:40:21 <oklopol> they are very pretty
19:40:30 <esolang_1234> but "LogicWire" isn't TC, so its probably not possible.
19:40:59 <esolang_1234> And you might not be able to see them. Remember the first GoL metacell?
19:41:14 <oklopol> i don't know what logicwire is
19:41:26 <oklopol> might not be able to see what?
19:41:30 <esolang_1234> My hypothetical lang.
19:41:34 <oklopol> i remember _a_ gol metacell
19:41:44 <oklopol> or rather, i remember that one exists
19:41:46 <oklopol> okay
19:41:48 <oklopol> right
19:41:55 <esolang_1234> conwaylife.com is blocked, so I can't link it :(
19:42:12 <esolang_1234> Anyway, I have to leave in a few minutes.
19:42:13 <oklopol> you just did
19:42:24 <esolang_1234> Not that, the actual page in the wiki :P
19:43:18 <oklopol> well right, i found it
19:43:31 <oklopol> i didn't know about this wiki, should probably look at it :D
19:43:41 <esolang_1234> 500x500 metacell or something
19:43:43 <oklopol> yeah
19:44:15 <oklopol> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Topology okay this wiki sucks
19:44:16 <esolang_1234> The only indicator is a block or something.
19:44:32 <oklopol> (topology is the main tool in the study of cellular automata)
19:44:56 <oklopol> and that's not even about the topology that's used
19:45:00 <esolang_1234> Well, I have to leave.
19:45:04 <oklopol> yes
19:45:07 <elliott> oklopol: lifewiki is mainly focused on documenting the patterns
19:45:08 <oklopol> *byes
19:45:17 <oklopol> yeah i guessed
19:45:28 <oklopol> still worth taking a glance at
19:45:31 <oklopol> i like patterns
19:46:15 <elliott> oklopol: Did you see http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Gemini when it came out?
19:46:17 <elliott> It's quite impressive.
19:46:27 <elliott> It's a replicator-based spaceship.
19:46:43 <elliott> (The first replicating pattern constructed; it replicates itself and then deletes the praent.)
19:46:45 <elliott> *parent
19:47:01 <oklopol> elliott: still, having a topology page like that is like if conservapedia had a page on god that said "God is a concept in theoretical religion theory."
19:47:16 <oklopol> except topology is so much better than god
19:47:31 <elliott> "God is the sovereign creator and eternal ruler of all things and beings that exist, whether in the physical universe or in the spiritual realm (Heaven). Not only is God the creator and ruler of the things and beings within those two realms, but he is also the creator of the realms themselves. God created the physical universe, and before he acted in this creation, the universe did not exist. Likewise God did with the spiritual realm.
19:47:31 <elliott> "
19:47:33 <elliott> Thanks, Conservapedia.
19:47:58 <elliott> Thonservapedia.
19:48:13 <oklopol> well pretty much what you expected, no?
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19:49:30 <kmc> that paragraph reads like legal boilerplate
19:50:27 <nortti> yeah. I still can't believe conservapedia is not a joke
19:50:42 <oklopol> yeah unlike those many other paragraphs on god that mean something
19:50:45 <kmc> i assume at least large parts of it are
19:51:02 <elliott> There are really only about six serious editors of Conservapedia.
19:51:24 <elliott> But they're all sufficiently mad that it's highly likely they consider many satirical edits legitimate.
19:51:40 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.6902 have you seen this
19:51:42 <ais523> do they still have the threat to sue anyone who vandalises it?
19:51:47 <kmc> i thought a lot of it was written by homeschooled christian kids
19:51:52 <elliott> ais523: I think so, yes.
19:52:01 <elliott> Did you know Conservapedia disproved relativity as liberal?
19:52:06 <kmc> oklopol: lolwut
19:52:06 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc²
19:52:08 <kmc> i love arxiv so much
19:52:14 <elliott> E=mc² is a meaningless, almost nonsensical, statement that purports to relate all matter to light.[1] In fact, no theory has successfully unified the laws governing mass (i.e., gravity) with the laws governing light (i.e., electromagnetism), and numerous attempts to derive E=mc² in general from first principles have failed.[2] Political pressure, however, has since made it impossible for anyone pursuing an academic career in science
19:52:14 <elliott> to even question the validity of this nonsensical equation. Simply put, E=mc² is liberal claptrap[3] .
19:52:19 <kmc> elliott: relativity = moral relativsm
19:52:22 <elliott> (That's not trolling, most of that was actually written by Schlafly.)
19:52:29 <elliott> It continues: "Biblical Scientific Foreknowledge predicts that a unified theory of all the laws of physics is impossible, because light and matter were created at different times, in different ways, as described in the Book of Genesis."
19:52:31 <oklopol> the author is not a crackpot btw
19:52:39 <elliott> See also: http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:52:50 <elliott> "In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether."
19:53:28 <elliott> kmc: "Comments:Please note that the publication date is April 1st 2012"
19:53:40 <elliott> I wonder if arxiv adds that automatically.
19:54:15 <oklopol> also see keywords.
19:54:27 <elliott> Really, Conservapedia would be much less entertaining if it was just Fox News: the wiki.
19:54:34 <elliott> It's far worse than that in reality.
19:54:37 <oklopol> also it's very tastefully done, i liked it
19:54:49 <elliott> oklopol: Which keywords?
19:54:51 <nortti> also read conservapedia's articles on evolution, atheism and socialism
19:54:56 <oklopol> in the pdf
19:55:20 <oklopol> in the god article
19:55:43 <elliott> nortti: No, those are all the boring, tame stuff.
19:56:39 <oklopol> does it at least define atheist as someone who worships the devil
19:57:26 <kmc> the demon god Atheor
19:57:27 <elliott> "Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.[2][3][4]" *yawn*
19:57:39 <kmc> anyway I think quoting conservapedia is poor form
19:57:44 <kmc> trolling by proxy
19:57:45 <oklopol> they're being wrong wrong.
19:58:15 <elliott> kmc: Most trolls are not nearly as entertaining as Conservapedia.
19:58:28 <elliott> Especially IRC trolls. I'm upping the standards!
20:00:46 <oklopol> playing with ordinals feels so wrong... and yet somehow so, so right.
20:01:12 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity Okay, I'll give them credit for this title.
20:01:23 <elliott> Wow, it's 49 sections long.
20:01:23 <oklopol> xD
20:01:35 <elliott> "Stephen Fry is a homosexual and an atheist." Good caption.
20:02:44 <Sgeo_> I feel like an outlier
20:03:01 <Sgeo_> I still don't quite understand their point, though
20:03:16 <kmc> that's like http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg&oldid=61691747
20:03:35 <nortti> "Their irrational closed-mindedness against the Bible obstructs the advancement of science ."
20:03:46 <elliott> kmc: :D
20:04:01 <kmc> "accurate but does not describe picture"
20:04:39 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Biblical_Scientific_Foreknowledge
20:09:56 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Feminist "often condemn the God-Given order of gender roles, as laid out in the Holy Bible" :D
20:11:04 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Essay:_Penn_Jillette%27s_walrus_slide_vs._thin_Indian_Christian_lady_dancers Nobody tell me what this article is about, I want to enjoy it solely based on the title.
20:12:00 <oklopol> holy shit these guys are retardedaiosdjfoasdjfoasdjfklasdjl;f
20:12:06 <oklopol> i will explode.
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20:12:44 <oklopol> Unlike atheists, Christians have a great many songs including dance music.
20:14:05 <oklopol> okay the walrus side article is perhaps the most insane thing i've ever seen.
20:14:06 <oklopol> ever
20:17:14 <oklopol> seriously, that has to be a joke
20:19:11 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Global_warming
20:20:37 <rszeno> hm, http://conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics
20:22:03 <ais523> rszeno: does that have a conservative bias too?
20:22:36 <rszeno> i was thinking that at least are not so many, :)
20:23:32 <nortti> ais523: don't you know that there is no conservative bias. Jusl liberal lies and conservative truth!!!!!!111!!!!
20:24:15 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/b2wsEtbA
20:24:26 <mroman_> ^- Would that stand a chance being turing-complete?
20:24:30 <rszeno> remember me about comunist party from my country, small amount of people knowing everything, :)
20:27:22 <nortti> rszeno: whete do you live?
20:27:51 <rszeno> romania, :) is not communist anymore but it was
20:28:22 <rszeno> imo is no difference between fanatics
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20:28:55 <nortti> rszeno: I don't undesrtand your sentencw
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20:29:41 <oklopol> i od ndurestnad emth
20:30:32 <rszeno> communist or religious like the ones from conservapedia.com when they are so sure they are right, is only fanatism
20:31:20 <nortti> rszeno: well actually romania has never been communist. It has only been "communist" (read: dictatorship)
20:31:46 <nortti> rszeno: you are right
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20:34:26 <fizzie> mroman_: It sounds like one-bit-cell brainfuck maps rather directly to the L, U, E, [, ], P, I instructions. (You'd stay in the leftmost branch all the time.)
20:34:38 <oklopol> mroman_: i don't see why it couldn't be possible
20:34:54 <fizzie> mroman_: Oh, I didn't read E properly. But anyway if you can flip from 1 to 0.
20:35:38 <oklopol> oh there was a loop instruction, i thought that was just a stub
20:37:21 -!- elliottasdf has joined.
20:37:27 <oklopol> hi elliottasdf
20:37:33 <elliottasdf> hi oklopolasdf
20:37:44 <oklopol> i'm not asdf.
20:37:52 <oklopol> only you are asdf.
20:38:36 <elliottasdf> Don't tell me who is and isn't asdf.
20:38:46 <ion> helliottaoeu
20:39:22 <oklopol> i will tell whatever i like whenever i like who is and isn't and when is and when is not someone asdf or not asdf.
20:40:17 <elliottasdf> oklopol: Fuck you. I'm king of the asdfs.
20:40:26 <oklopol> fuck U
20:40:30 <oklopol> fuck
20:40:31 <oklopol> U
20:40:35 <elliottasdf> ion: Play Crawl for my amusement.
20:40:44 <oklopol> seriously, dudde, take a fuck and U.
20:40:51 <oklopol> yeah ion it's func
20:41:01 <oklopol> *fun
20:41:17 <mroman_> fizzie: You can flip depending on your location and the value under it, yes.
20:41:56 <ion> I’m too tired.
20:42:05 <ion> I’ve been awake for 22 hours.
20:42:13 <elliottasdf> ion: Perfect Crawl-playing mode
20:42:17 <elliottasdf> *mode.
20:42:18 <oklopol> i've been awake more than 13
20:42:24 -!- jix_ has joined.
20:42:33 <elliottasdf> I've been awake 6.
20:42:37 -!- shachaf_ has joined.
20:43:05 <nortti> I've been awake 14
20:43:14 <oklopol> well that's good too, don't believe people if they call you an ass-dancing faggot because you've been awake only 6
20:43:19 <mroman_> hm yes.
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20:43:35 <oklopol> would be cool if your memory was just your location
20:43:44 <oklopol> so some kinda stack machine
20:43:46 <mroman_> by setting the left to 1 you can always flip the right.
20:43:55 <oklopol> then again this may be just due to my tree-walking automata fetish
20:44:06 <mroman_> Brainfucks > would probably be then R
20:44:11 <mroman_> and < would be U
20:45:07 <mroman_> Flipping then must be
20:45:39 <mroman_> LEEE to set up left to 1 and not flipping the right.
20:45:44 <mroman_> then E again to actually flip
20:45:45 <oklopol> a two-headed tree automaton can simulate a binary tape which i guess is kind of fun
20:45:48 <mroman_> so LEEEE should work.
20:46:40 <mroman_> so it is one-bit-brainfuck "compatible" yes :(
20:46:56 <mroman_> I don't like languages too easaly compatible to brainfuck variants.
20:47:00 <mroman_> *easily
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20:47:08 <mroman_> so back the drawing board :)
20:47:14 <mroman_> I want something with trees.
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20:49:14 <mroman_> oklopol: Location is memory. That means: The nodes contain no actually data?
20:49:19 <mroman_> *actual
20:49:33 <mroman_> My typo rate is awfully high tonight.
20:50:16 <oklopol> yeah
20:50:29 <oklopol> just a full infinite binary tree
20:50:43 <oklopol> a finite set of states and two heads
20:50:56 <mroman_> two heads?
20:51:07 <oklopol> yeah, otherwise you just have a stack
20:51:19 <mroman_> Yes.
20:51:39 <mroman_> Then you have two stacks?
20:52:01 <oklopol> yeah, which is as good as a tape (although way nicer to program for)
20:52:26 <mroman_> so, LRU (head 0) and lru (head 1)
20:52:43 <oklopol> then again it's enough to have two heads and a unary tree.
20:52:59 <mroman_> unary = 1?
20:53:16 <mroman_> So it's just a comman tape.
20:53:17 <oklopol> yeah
20:53:19 <mroman_> *common
20:53:22 <oklopol> yeah without data
20:53:23 <mroman_> No fun :(
20:53:28 <mroman_> oh.
20:53:39 <rszeno> nested stacks?
20:53:42 <mroman_> "without data" fun is coming back.
20:53:43 <oklopol> so just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine
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20:55:14 <oklopol> but if you have multiple heads on a dataless binary tree with only local interactions, you might get something fun
20:55:56 <oklopol> (my first two-head suggestion was the usual multiheaded automaton where you can read both heads at all times and change a global state based on that info)
20:56:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
20:56:15 <oklopol> (here the local data is just whether you're in a left or a right child)
20:56:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:56:37 <nortti> `? itidus12
20:56:38 <mroman_> Hm.
20:56:42 <HackEgo> itidus12? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:56:50 <nortti> `? itidus22
20:56:54 <HackEgo> itidus22? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:57:05 -!- Deewiant_ has joined.
20:57:20 <mroman_> If I have LRU and an H, which creates a new head at the root node.
20:57:21 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:57:23 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:57:26 <mroman_> so
20:57:37 <mroman_> LHR would mean
20:57:44 <mroman_> Head[0]: Left
20:57:53 <mroman_> Head[1]: Right
20:57:58 <mroman_> Head[0]: Right
20:59:00 <mroman_> and some conditional instructions based on the location of the heads.
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20:59:46 <oklopol> yeah but then that's just a rather direct n-stacks thing
20:59:46 <mroman_> That might in fact be fun.
21:00:13 <ion> Too much Crawl? I interpreted “:c” someone said as “a book, a centaur”.
21:00:36 <oklopol> the heads should be running different programs, and only seeing each other when close enough
21:00:45 <oklopol> or something
21:01:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7).
21:01:14 <mroman_> hm.
21:01:16 <mroman_> ic.
21:02:01 -!- elliott has joined.
21:02:14 <mroman_> Ok.
21:03:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:03:45 <mroman_> I have an idea, then.
21:04:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:08:41 <elliott> ais523: welcome to washington dc!
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21:17:40 <elliott> Gregor: I forget, did you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
21:18:34 <Gregor> Apr 28 11:12:28 <Gregor> " is the best identifier.
21:18:50 <elliott> ...not that kind of quote identifier.
21:21:40 <nortti> what kind of quote insentifier then?
21:21:53 <elliott> Insentifier :D
21:22:00 <elliott> `quote
21:22:02 <elliott> Those kinds.
21:22:03 <HackEgo> 552) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
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21:23:40 <tswett> ais523: happy 5:23 EDT.
21:23:47 <elliott> `welcome tswett
21:23:49 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:24:04 <ais523> tswett: heh, I get amused when I look at the clock and it's a numerically significant time (sometimes 5:23)
21:24:31 <elliott> ais523: Were you born at 05:23?
21:24:41 <ais523> I don't know
21:24:52 <ais523> can't remember, it was so long ago…
21:24:59 <ais523> don't think I could read then either
21:25:03 <elliott> So you *might* have been born at 05:23?
21:25:12 -!- variable has joined.
21:25:15 <tswett> I might have been born at 05:23.
21:25:20 <elliott> I *am* 05:23.
21:25:21 <oerjan> ais523: you don't have a watch that says DIE every wednesday just after midnight, i assume
21:25:25 <tswett> I know it was early in the morning.
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21:25:45 <elliott> oerjan: wat
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21:26:00 <ais523> oerjan: I don't have a wristwatch at all, nor a functioning pocketwatch (and arguably not a nonfunctioning pocketwatch depending on your definition)
21:26:50 <oerjan> elliott: it's basically the first three letters of the weekday for the previous day, in german.
21:27:01 -!- cheater_ has joined.
21:27:08 <elliott> oerjan: wait, I recall you saying something like this before.
21:27:14 <oerjan> yes, i did.
21:27:32 <elliott> is this a true story
21:27:37 <oerjan> yes
21:27:56 <elliott> can i have your watch
21:28:05 <oerjan> right now it says WED. in a few hours it will briefly say MIT.
21:28:19 <oerjan> and no.
21:30:05 <oerjan> the brand is lorus, fwiw.
21:31:04 <elliott> So why does it show those, exactly?
21:32:36 <oerjan> presumably it has both english and german weekday markings, and every day after midnight it briefly passes over the language you haven't adjusted it for
21:33:35 <oerjan> as it rotates the ring with the markings
21:35:13 <elliott> Ah.
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21:38:53 <ais523> oerjan: are you two hours east of me, then?
21:39:07 <ais523> or are you just anticipating it to happen at the end of tohour?
21:39:10 <oerjan> one, i assume
21:39:35 <oerjan> anticipating, and it's not _exactly_ at midnight.
21:39:54 <oerjan> and by "briefly", i mean possibly a couple of hours.
21:40:09 <elliott> @time ais523
21:40:10 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed May 9 22:40:10 2012
21:40:11 <elliott> @time oerjan
21:40:11 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Wed May 9 23:40:11 2012
21:40:23 <ais523> I was assuming one too
21:40:24 <oerjan> i see the date number has already started changing
21:40:34 <elliott> scary
21:40:42 <elliott> how do clocks work anyway
21:40:53 <oerjan> i think that depends on the clock, elliott
21:41:04 <elliott> how does depending work
21:41:49 <oerjan> presumably it has a quartz crystal or something, but then translates that into mechanical movement.
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21:43:32 <ais523> well, digital clocks work the same way computers do
21:43:38 <ais523> completely mechanical clocks use gears
21:43:50 <ais523> but I imagine they're commonly somewhere in between nowadays
21:44:52 <oerjan> it has a battery, at least.
21:45:42 <elliott> i was assuming it was clockwork for some reason
21:45:44 <ais523> hmm, do wrist-sundials actually exist?
21:45:54 <elliott> can you get clockwork watches
21:46:09 <ais523> elliott: yes, they exist, although I'm not sure how popular they are nowadays
21:46:14 <ais523> you have to wind them up every now and then
21:46:17 <elliott> googling just turns up some stupid steampunk crap
21:46:21 <elliott> ais523: i mean
21:46:23 <elliott> ones that go on your wrist
21:46:48 <ais523> elliott: yes
21:46:57 <ais523> all watches were like that once
21:47:00 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Wrist_Watch_WWI.jpg wow way to make it fucking impossible to read with a metal thing
21:47:02 <ais523> they're not so popular nowadays, though
21:47:22 <elliott> ais523: YES THANK YOU FOR THE HISTORY LESSON but pocket watches were what used to be popular aiui
21:47:39 <elliott> and i didn't know if anyone made wristwatches before we figured out how to power them with fire
21:47:44 <ais523> elliott: within my lifetime once
21:47:49 <ais523> not entirely sure if within yours
21:47:56 <elliott> once what?
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21:48:09 <ais523> "all watches were like that once"
21:48:12 <ais523> well, maybe not /all/ of them
21:48:17 <ais523> but they were still pretty common when I was young
21:48:17 <elliott> what, clockwork?
21:48:19 <ais523> yes
21:48:59 <ais523> elliott: luckily there are some older people around
21:49:20 <ais523> 40 years ago is the right timeframe for mechanical wristwatches dominating, it seems
21:49:25 <ais523> I just asked
21:49:50 <elliott> "Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."
21:52:21 <elliott> anyway ais523 is old
21:52:24 <elliott> not as old as oerjan though
21:52:42 <ais523> the watches probably weren't available when I was young, come to think of it
21:52:49 <elliott> which watches
21:52:57 <ais523> but 40-year-old watches were pretty expensive when new, and also pretty durable
21:53:00 <ais523> so there are some around
21:53:09 <ais523> and purely mechanical watches, isn't that what this discussion is about?
21:53:16 <elliott> ah
21:53:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls having hand-cranked watches at one time
21:54:02 <rszeno> i have a pocket watch and few wirst watches, all mechanical
21:54:48 <rszeno> to be honest i dislike all this digital stuff, :)
21:54:51 <elliott> pls tell me you use a mechanical typewriter w/ your computer too
21:55:16 <rszeno> i would like, :)
21:56:04 <ais523> I've seen mechanical typewriters, but never used one
21:56:11 * oerjan had a mechanical typewriter once
21:56:24 <ais523> I've used a mostly mechanical typewriter that had some electronics in, you typed a line at a time then it printed it out
21:56:32 <rszeno> i start programing with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card, :)
21:56:36 <ais523> sort-of like typewriter keyboard -> microcontroller -> daisywheel printer
21:56:43 <nortti> http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/freedom.jpg
21:56:54 <ais523> rszeno: my parents were programming on punch cards when I was very young, they gave me some (unpunched) ones to play with
21:57:08 <elliott> If only Babbage had built the Analytical Engine, then rszeno's dream would have been realised.
21:57:39 <elliott> ais523: You... played with punchcards?
21:57:42 <elliott> They're not very exciting.
21:57:56 <ais523> I used to post them through chairs, apparently
21:58:09 <ais523> very young children are amused by things like that, apparently even if they're me
21:58:26 <elliott> This explains a lot.
21:58:33 <elliott> Though I'm not sure what.
21:59:14 <ais523> elliott: that comment you just made /also/ explains a lot and I'm not sure what
21:59:23 <elliott> Oh no.
21:59:29 <ais523> hm, you hate past-elliott, right?
21:59:44 <coppro> he was an asshole
21:59:50 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client Sucks @$$( http://www.androirc.com )).
22:00:13 <elliott> He's not nearly as bad as present coppro.
22:00:19 <elliott> Or President coppro.
22:00:47 <coppro> O_O
22:00:55 <ais523> I don't really hate past-ais523
22:00:58 <ais523> they were pretty naive
22:01:08 <ais523> but not really hateable
22:01:37 <elliott> coppro: If you become President, I'm leaving America forever.
22:03:23 <elliott> coppro: By the way, please make Agora not boring.
22:03:38 <coppro> elliott: but but
22:04:06 <elliott> Do it.
22:04:06 <elliott> Now.
22:04:09 <elliott> You may enlist ais523 for help.
22:04:31 <ais523> elliott: but you aren't in America?
22:04:40 <ais523> you'd have to go there first in order to leave it again
22:04:44 <coppro> ais523: he'll go to America just so that he can... yeah
22:04:45 * ais523 refuses to travel to the US
22:05:04 <coppro> ais523: he can even do it in style and get deported
22:05:15 <coppro> purpose of trip: "deportation"
22:05:19 <ais523> actually, I dislike international travel a lot, it seems so heavily unnecessary
22:05:27 <ais523> abroad is depressingly similar to nearby
22:05:28 <coppro> ais523: by which you mean overseas?
22:05:35 <coppro> or all international travel?
22:05:40 <ais523> coppro: I live on an island, there's no distinction
22:05:48 <coppro> you know what I mean
22:05:55 <ais523> no I don't
22:06:01 <coppro> do you include Europe?
22:06:11 <ais523> I include everywhere non-UK
22:06:14 <coppro> ok
22:06:18 <ais523> dislike travelling much even within the UK
22:06:34 <coppro> colocation is key
22:06:38 <ais523> I'm happier if I'm within walking distance of home (that is, I /could/ walk it, not necessarily that I actually /do/)
22:06:39 <coppro> travelling is sometimes needed for colocation
22:06:47 <ais523> what do you mean by colocation, here?
22:06:57 <coppro> being in the same place as someone else
22:07:08 <ais523> isn't that what the Internet's for?
22:08:42 <coppro> it's not the same
22:08:58 <coppro> there's a reason conferences generally haven't gone digital
22:09:42 <ais523> I haven't found it yet
22:09:53 <ais523> going off to Canada for a conference disrupted my life for several weeks
22:09:53 <coppro> for starters, you can't chat over dinner
22:10:05 <coppro> overseas is nasty due to the really large travel time
22:10:20 <ais523> I couldn't chat there over dinner either, almost bankrupted by the first one
22:10:26 <coppro> ouch
22:10:27 <ais523> and then spent most of my mealtimes eating at Subway
22:10:53 <ais523> I was too moral to claim it on expenses because I would have needed to eat anyway
22:11:56 <ais523> academic expenses are pretty much all a scam, apart from travel (and accommodation if that's necessary, e.g. when going abroad)
22:15:02 <coppro> yeah, but the standard is that you get to claim them
22:15:39 <coppro> yet as a general rule, eating out isn't that much more costly than cooking yourself if you factor the time in
22:16:25 <ais523> well, I eat "out" at lunch pretty much every day, although it's typically university canteen or supermarket ready meal
22:18:08 <coppro> yeah
22:19:54 <elliott> back
22:20:31 -!- davidwerecat has joined.
22:20:35 -!- david_werecat has joined.
22:21:36 <elliott> ais523: I assign you to cleaning up [[list of ideas]]
22:21:48 <ais523> elliott: I assign zzo38 to cleaning it up
22:22:00 <elliott> thanks
22:23:46 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to ask for advice on what Star Trek episode me and my gf should watch
22:23:55 <Sgeo> (Not enough details in prior statement for actual advice)
22:26:31 <elliott> ais523: hi, welcome to Asia
22:26:58 <ais523> Sgeo: there are a few really really infamous ones
22:27:37 <Sgeo> Well, full details: She loves the Stargate franchise, but I don't think has seen any Star Trek, so what would appeal to her
22:27:50 <Sgeo> Although we're probably going to watch some SG-1 now
22:28:42 <ais523> wait, Sgeo has an actual girlfriend now?
22:28:54 <Sgeo> Yes
22:29:35 <ais523> same person you were alluding to before, or someone else?
22:30:17 <Sgeo> When was the alluding?
22:30:37 <ais523> I can't remember
22:30:42 <ais523> `pastlog alluded to
22:31:13 <elliott> I think it was "alluded-to".
22:31:15 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:16 <Sgeo> If it was earlier ago than March, no
22:31:31 <ais523> `pastlog Sgeo.*alluded to
22:31:44 <oerjan> i think it was years ago
22:31:47 <HackEgo> 2010-12-21.txt:21:58:59: <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I assume he assumed it was Alluded To Female.
22:32:02 <Sgeo> So no
22:32:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it was already a meme in december 2010, apparently
22:32:06 <ais523> and OK
22:32:44 <elliott> ais523: how is to create javascript in xml???
22:33:05 <ais523> elliott: use a JS to XSLT compiler, I guess
22:34:30 <elliott> ais523: how to enable PHP with ajax and compiling
22:35:37 <ais523> bleh, can't think of a good and sufficiently facetious answer
22:36:08 <elliott> ais523: how to develop facebook with visual studio node.js
22:36:27 <ais523> elliott: first you need to go work at facebook
22:36:39 <elliott> ok
22:36:44 <elliott> how to work for facebook
22:37:07 <ais523> they have competitions every now and then, facebook hacker cup
22:37:11 <ais523> you can search for it on bing
22:37:25 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:37:27 <elliott> how to search on bing
22:38:02 <elliott> how to breathe :(
22:38:38 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:40:08 <elliott> help
22:41:13 <elliott> how to receive help
22:43:47 <elliott> ,
22:48:06 <elliott> how to solve problems
22:48:13 <elliott> how to do things
22:49:44 <elliott> how to surprise sheep
22:50:35 <rszeno> show them a wolf
22:50:53 <Sgeo> how to ask how to
22:51:01 <Sgeo> Oh, elliott already made that joke
22:51:42 <elliott> how to wolf
22:51:53 <rszeno> sheep
23:00:07 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Quit: Quitting...).
23:01:27 <david_werecat> ?
23:01:49 <elliott> hi
23:01:56 <david_werecat> hello
23:02:08 <david_werecat> it appers that I quit when I login...
23:02:19 <elliott> davidwerecat =/= david_werecat
23:03:05 <david_werecat> probably that was my shadowbot then
23:03:34 <david_werecat> so, how are things today on #esoteric?
23:04:59 <elliott> #esotericy
23:06:37 <david_werecat> even more so than http://esolangs.org/wiki/? ?
23:08:20 <Gregor> ALWAYS
23:15:20 <elliott> the wiki is nothing like #esoteric
23:16:27 <david_werecat> judging by the logs, looks a lot more social in here
23:17:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:18:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:19:44 <elliott> the logs are all fabricated by Gregor
23:21:43 -!- david_werecat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:08 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:26:34 <Gregor> It's a lot of work fabricating all those logs, but it helps me practice for my erotic fan fictions.
23:26:57 <elliott> Your erotic fan fictions read like IRC logs?
23:27:39 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:28:53 <david_werecat> if erotic fan fiction can be written like IRC, then I might still have some hope...
23:29:28 <elliott> Everyone knows the money is in erotic fan fiction.
23:29:43 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. "fictions" reads so awkwardly.
23:29:51 <elliott> Interestingly "fanfics" doesn't.
23:31:55 -!- rszeno has left.
23:32:00 <david_werecat> wait, then where do eroge come in?
23:33:14 <elliott> I defer to Gregor. He's the expert.
23:33:32 -!- rodgort has joined.
23:34:23 -!- monqy has joined.
23:34:50 <Gregor> He sat, nonchalantly, one finger running unthinkingly but tantalizingly up and down his strong, toned thigh. It wasn't unusual for oklopol to be here, waiting for elliott's arrival, but something was different today. oklopol was not typically nude.
23:35:03 <elliott> thanks Gregor
23:35:12 * Gregor takes a bow.
23:35:26 <elliott> i think that line is probably illegal in several countries
23:36:33 <monqy> oh dear
23:36:33 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:36:36 <monqy> oh dear
23:36:46 <elliott> hello monqy
23:37:02 <monqy> hi
23:37:20 <elliott> hello monqy
23:37:37 <monqy> good memos
23:37:39 <monqy> thanks lots
23:38:09 <zzo38> Does someone stolen your clothing?
23:38:14 <elliott> yes
23:38:28 <elliott> monqy: i knew you'd be really sad if you didn't get updated on all the best #esoteric
23:39:16 <zzo38> Do you think this is a correct way? getBlocks n = sortBy (on antispecificness fst) . (>>= \(Declaration x y z) -> (y, z) <$ guard (n == x));
23:39:42 <elliott> monqy: are you alive
23:39:57 <monqy> no
23:40:09 <monqy> im nothing but a jerk's ghost
23:40:26 <elliott> but
23:40:28 <elliott> that's me :'(
23:40:28 <zzo38> monqy: How can you type on computer while dead, then?
23:40:41 <david_werecat> teletype
23:41:32 <zzo38> Is it a crime for dead people to act as if still alive?
23:42:20 <monqy> yes im in ghost jail
23:42:32 <elliott> me too
23:42:33 <zzo38> OK
23:42:42 <elliott> monqy: you missed a great tv
23:43:01 <elliott> someone tried to escape purgy by running up from D:4 and exiting the dungeon
23:43:14 <elliott> but they died on the upstairs leading out of the dungeon
23:43:37 <monqy> same outcome, really
23:43:43 <zzo38> Are some of the stairs broken?
23:43:51 <zzo38> s/stairs/steps/
23:44:04 <elliott> no purgy just hit them
23:44:08 <monqy> in ancient crawl you got more points for exiting alive but nowadays it's the same as any other death
23:44:19 <elliott> monqy: also someone else committed very slow suicide to a killer bee larva!
23:44:20 <elliott> very
23:44:21 <elliott> very slow
23:44:30 <elliott> gotta keep monqy updated
23:44:51 <monqy> im updated
23:45:19 <monqy> 16:44:19 < CIA-97> elliptic * rfea3bfef4d52 /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Improve felid UC and Fighting apts.
23:45:25 <monqy> felids "un nefred"
23:45:46 <elliott> monqy: the joke is that elliptic is playing a felid right now
23:45:54 <elliott> being a dev reasons
23:46:28 <monqy> 16:46:17 < CIA-97> kilobyte * rabd22f24f12b /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Nerf felid Summ aptitude: +1 -> 0
23:46:32 <monqy> felids "re nerfreD"
23:46:35 <elliott> i was just about to quote that
23:47:07 <elliott> by tomorrow felids will have a completely different set of aptitudes but be no better or worse
23:47:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:51:49 <elliott> 00:51 <xnmojo> anyone have thoughts on my jackal sprites? http://i.imgur.com/xxKOi.png
23:52:16 <monqy> which are old and which are new help
23:52:30 <elliott> you also missed: that guy defending tiles!
23:53:07 <monqy> im not even going to pay attention
23:53:15 <monqy> tiles arguments are awful
23:53:16 <elliott> no that was ages ago
23:53:19 <monqy> oh
23:53:29 <elliott> it didn't even become an argument everyone just snickered
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