←2012-05-10 2012-05-11 2012-05-12→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:04:15 <cheater__> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4702.html
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00:30:16 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523> <Tiak> C++,C--,C#,Cω,C♫, C₀ and C! are already taken, might I recommend "C-:"? It looks something like a smiley face.
00:30:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Strangely, not Cflat
00:30:42 <cheater__> kmc: did you decide if Touch is good or bad
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02:29:13 <zzo38> Something I was trying to think of with WizardCard, for example in Magic: the Gathering you may have a card with effect: Enchanted permanent gains "{0}: Destroy ~". Note in this case what the tilde refers to! So when converting into a computer code, the macro has to know what it is doing!
02:32:32 <cheater__> !!
02:32:49 <zzo38> For example if it eventually becomes: grant(read(this,attachee),activated(free,destroy(tilde))) and then it has to expand the "tilde" macro. Possibly by using some kind of lambda so that the parameter can be replaced at runtime by the current "this"? I don't know exactly how.
02:34:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/thjko/oh_ghc/ why is this a submission
02:34:43 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:37:55 <Madoka-Kaname> Arn't higher order functions enough?
02:37:58 <Madoka-Kaname> Why do you need macros?
02:43:47 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: Higher order functions are useful but macros are also useful for different purpose.
02:43:58 <zzo38> There are some things one will do which the other won't.
02:44:06 <zzo38> (Both ways)
02:44:12 <Madoka-Kaname> Why would you use a macro here?
02:45:31 <Madoka-Kaname> activated :: Cost -> (Context -> Context) -> Ability
02:45:42 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: Well, even the code I gave would result from the expansion of a few macros; but I am using some macro just for what I have thought.
02:46:26 <zzo38> But, yes, your type would be essentially it; well, the second parameter might differ somehow, or maybe not...
02:48:13 <Madoka-Kaname> grant :: Permanent -> Ability -> Permanent
02:48:14 <Madoka-Kaname> etc
02:48:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Maybe even
02:49:06 <Madoka-Kaname> data Ability = Triggered (Context -> Bool) (Context -> Context) | Activated Cost (Context -> Context)
02:49:07 <Madoka-Kaname> Or something
02:49:09 <zzo38> To give an example in Haskell where a macro would work but a function won't do, is: let { f g = either g g } in f :: (b -> c) -> Either b b -> c; let { f g = either length length } in f :: t -> Either [a] [a1] -> Int; if f were a macro in the first case then you could do like the second one too since their types fail to match
02:50:43 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: I think those are a bit too simple; for example, these parameters are not necessarily pure values since first you need to calculate them in context (and there may be rules to override the context), and then this "grant" also needs to count as a (static) ability, etc
02:51:35 <zzo38> Which means it need to allow overriding and other things, some which can be done by monads others which help partially by macros too
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03:11:40 <zzo38> Consider an Inform 7 program such as "Instead of taking the telephone booth, kill the player." But, this is a global rule. In Magic: the Gathering, there might be effects on cards that act somewhat like this, and even these ones can be overridden; global rules can also be overridden.
03:25:02 <tswett> Gregor: you wrote the music to this game's title screen, right? http://armorgames.com/play/13225/pretentious-game
03:27:32 <elliott> _n - a cursed -5 ring of strength (left claw)
03:27:36 <elliott> yuo're horible corl
03:29:30 <TeruFSX> anybody know a good non-distance-weighted pathfinding algorithm
03:30:01 <zzo38> TeruFSX: What are you making?
03:30:15 <TeruFSX> basically a browsable point-connected map
03:31:28 <TeruFSX> i think i'll look somewhere more appropriate
03:31:57 <madbr> only know sound stuff, not AI
03:37:03 <elliott> TeruFSX: Can't you just use A* :P
03:37:14 <TeruFSX> uh yes
03:44:27 * tswett attempts to rip the music that was definitely written by Gregor and not by somebody else.
03:48:08 <madbr> gregor writes music? :D
03:50:23 <elliott> http://codu.org/music/
03:51:09 <tswett> Gregor definitely writes music, such as the acclaimed Opus 11, as well as such pieces as Opus 10 and Opus 13.
03:52:01 <elliott> Implying 11 is better than 13.
03:52:04 <elliott> (Okay, I don't remember 11.)
03:52:22 <tswett> Opus 11 is one of the best thousand songs I've ever heard.
03:52:38 <tswett> Opus 11 is . . . the best thousand songs I've ever heard.
03:52:41 <madbr> aha he uses opus numbers :o
03:52:49 <elliott> tswett: That's a pretty low standard.
03:53:16 <zzo38> If you don't know what else to call it, you use opus numbers, isn't it?
03:53:26 <shachaf> Instead of taking the telephone booth, kill the player.
03:53:34 <tswett> As far as play counts go, Opus 11 is tied for... 252nd.
03:53:47 <tswett> Say, what's that one song?
03:53:48 <madbr> zzo: why not filenames :D
03:54:02 <shachaf> hi tswett
03:54:03 <tswett> That goes da (da-da-da) da (da da) da (da-da-da) da (da da) and so on?
03:54:15 <zzo38> madbr: But you would still need to decide something such as filenames too
03:54:15 <madbr> 5553
03:54:22 <shachaf> hi madbr
03:54:23 <madbr> 4442
03:54:29 <tswett> Oh right, "Hardlyquin".
03:54:39 <madbr> true
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03:56:19 <madbr> dunno about his "electronic music", his piano stuff is nice tho yeah :D
03:56:43 * tswett looks at the songs he has played 19 times.
03:56:48 <tswett> Yes, all of these songs are exactly equally good.
03:58:40 <madbr> hmm yeah the solo piano stuff is a lot better :D
03:59:09 <madbr> weird, I thought when you could compose well for one you could do it for the other... oh well :D
04:05:07 <madbr> anyone else composes in here? :D
04:05:34 <zzo38> madbr: I have written some music in QBASIC
04:07:58 <madbr> and zzt? :D
04:10:10 <madbr> wonder what my music would look transcribed
04:10:22 <madbr> probably hard to play stuff with jumps all over the place :D
04:19:37 <cheater__> the mind revealing itself to itself
04:20:22 <madbr> well, no it's just that it's composed to sound good on computer, not be easy to play :3
04:20:28 <madbr> so often it's kinda fast etc
04:23:05 <zzo38> Yes, also ZZT, but also QBASIC. Some music I have written is in Bohlen-Pierce I wrote a subroutine for QBASIC called "PlayBP" which is like the built-in PLAY but with Bohlen-Pierce notes
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04:26:11 <zzo38> WriterT (Product (Ratio Integer)) [] is one way to represent a probability distribution in Haskell, I would think!! (You can then sort and combine and whatever else, afterward)
04:30:15 <ion> Derptal 2 http://imgur.com/a/x9qTF
04:31:35 <zzo38> For doing the macro expansion in WizardCard I have decided this might work: type Expander = StateT [Declaration] []; How well do you think? (It would sometimes have multiple possible expansions, some of which may eventually fail; and is also possible for macros to add new declarations)
04:32:05 <zzo38> (And to read other declarations, affect declaration in other ways too, etc)
04:36:48 <zzo38> Do you know if Pascal compiler to target LLVM exists?
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05:06:40 <oklopol> "madbr so often it's kinda fast etc" how fast?
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05:09:52 <fizzie> No matter what I's previous value was.
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05:10:22 <elliott> fizzie: YES INDEED.
05:10:32 <elliott> Actually I just realise now that 4 is a plausible result if i starts as 0 there. :(
05:10:43 <elliott> Well, sort of, anyway.
05:10:48 <elliott> Wait, no, it isn't.
05:11:08 <shachaf> It's perfectly plausible.
05:11:38 <shachaf> But arrays aren't pointers. :-(
05:11:39 <fizzie> Any result is plausible for a sufficiently flexible 'plausible'.
05:12:15 <elliott> i = i++ + i++; /* i becomes a picture of a dog */
05:12:52 <fizzie> Maybe a sizeof(i)*CHAR_BIT-pixel black-and-white dog.
05:13:03 <fizzie> Gah, I put in parentheses there. :(
05:13:14 <fizzie> I meant to say (sizeof i)*CHAR_BIT, I think.
05:13:19 <shachaf> sizeof ((i)*CHAR_BIT)
05:13:34 <elliott> fizzie: No, it doesn't become a numerical representation of a picture of a dog.
05:13:36 <elliott> It becomes a picture of a dog.
05:13:48 <elliott> printf("%d\n", i); /* prints a picture of a dog to the screen */
05:13:52 <elliott> Even on text-only displays.
05:14:19 <shachaf> Did I mention I got *TWO* responses from Knuth about my email?
05:14:51 <fizzie> Were the responses saying completely opposite things? If so, that does perhaps not bode well for further volumes.
05:15:13 <shachaf> No, one was a followup.
05:15:20 <shachaf> Also one was handwritten, the other emailed.
05:26:32 <zzo38> Do you know God is a crazy woman? I don't.
05:26:47 <elliott> ok
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05:37:57 <ion> https://twitter.com/#!/Marinmenyo/status/200628420789547010/photo/1
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06:55:17 <Sgeo> Has PH been online at all recently?
06:55:18 <Sgeo> Ph
06:55:29 <monqy> pH
06:56:26 <ion> PHP
06:57:02 <elliott> he's in ireland
06:58:51 <ion> elliott: Do you pronounce “via a” (as in “via a connection”) as “viaRa”?
06:59:01 <elliott> a pause is not "r"!
07:00:39 <ion> That’s what i thought, but in Look Around You the guy pronounces it like that and when i asked another British guy about it (some years ago) he confirmed that’s how it’s pronounced. Also, wouldn’t using a pause sound something like “viatta” to a Brit?
07:00:40 <monqy> viar a?
07:00:50 <monqy> it's concievable
07:02:17 <elliott> monqy: this would be a good learndb entry for me <elliptic> why are 10 people watching elliott die to a beetle
07:02:38 <monqy> maybe Sgeo will add it
07:03:17 <Sgeo> elliott, when will you get W:A working?
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07:14:10 <zzo38> Are there some program with some features of Astrolog and other programs, can also plot the International Space Station's coordinates, and coordinates of camera satellites (such as Google Earth), set camera angles of objects, set various other parameters, etc. Another possible feature would be dynamic orb angles based on apparent diameters and other things
07:21:34 <fizzie> The "Stellarium" program has a satellite plugin (including ISS) that knows how to calculate the coordinates, but Stellarium itself is more of a "look at the sky" program than "calculate things about the sky" one. (And I doubt there really are any "Google Earth" satellites; I'd suppose there's at least two levels of companies between Google and the satellites.)
07:21:58 <fizzie> Anyway, celestrak.com is about tracking satellite positions, I think they've got some software links too.
07:22:13 <fizzie> (That's where Stellarium's plugin gets its information from.)
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07:31:31 <zzo38> Astrolog is missing a few report formats (one thing missing certainly is that although it can print calendars; it lacks the feature to include any data on the calendars), but it does do many things that other programs don't have. Just a similar program but with other features too, as well as the way to combine them, would help.
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07:32:15 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you have the satellite positions on your computer?
07:33:19 <zzo38> Do you know what the coordinates of ISS are?
07:39:39 <ion> elliott: 03:13 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5867126092237181778
07:39:41 <ion> elliott: 02:16 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6229002293145728844
07:39:51 <elliott> what
07:47:02 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear jokes
07:47:03 <elliott> fast naga
07:47:07 <monqy> ha ha ha
07:48:06 <ion> @@ @echo @echo @echo HA
07:48:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "ion!ion@heh.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA"]} rest:"echo; msg:
07:48:06 <lambdabot> IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"ion!ion@heh.fi\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:
07:48:06 <lambdabot> IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA\
07:48:06 <lambdabot> \\"]} rest:\\\"HA\\\"\""
07:49:15 <ion> zzo38: Does the International Space Station affect your luck in romance or gambling?
07:49:51 <zzo38> ion: Not unless you are betting on or marrying someone living there.
07:50:37 <ion> depending on what its position was at the point you moved from the inside of the womb to the outside.
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07:51:27 <zzo38> ion: In that case, I highly doubt it.
07:52:03 <zzo38> (At first I thought you meant the current date/time; which is what my first answer was based on)
07:52:03 <ion> Ah, it’s excluded from the list of objects in the sky behave like that?
07:52:05 <ion> +that
07:52:52 <elliott> monqy: 4.1 is hard
07:53:06 <monqy> yes
07:53:23 <ion> elliott: Any comments about the pronunciation in the videos?
07:53:31 <zzo38> No objects in the sky behave like that, as far as I am concerned. But if you like to do so, you can assign what they mean to you according to synchronicity (the subjective grouping of events; as opposed to causality which is the objective grouping) if you have nothing else to do.
07:54:26 <ion> zzo38: I was just wondering what Astrolog would do with the location of ISS.
07:54:36 <elliott> ion: I didn't watch.
07:54:38 <elliott> monqy: Have you played 4.1?
07:54:41 <elliott> You should play 4.1.
07:55:01 <ion> I’m plortal 2.
07:55:04 <zzo38> But there is possibly the case of indirect effects from whatever, possibly psychological effect from superstition, possibly lighting conditions, and once the king was scared to death by an eclipse, so such things are not completely impossible.
07:55:46 <monqy> II'v tried it
07:55:51 <zzo38> ion: Well, it would simply plot its location on whatever reports you want. Interpretation text could be given too; but you would probably not use the ISS in interpretation reports.
07:55:54 <monqy> not gotten very far
07:56:45 <zzo38> (Astrolog does allow full customization of interpretation texts, so it is possible someone might do something with that)
08:01:07 <itidus22> "I now know what this world is missing. There needs to be some sort of natural law whereby anyone who writes a substantial amount of crap eventually dies in fires started by their own software."
08:01:14 <elliott> monqy: what are you writing a denotational semantics for :o
08:01:28 <zzo38> For example, on the astro-graph you could plot its position above the Earth on a map of the world, on the horizon view you can determine its azimuth/altitude, and on the horoscope you can plot its ecliptic longitude, and there are many other reports available too.
08:01:57 <monqy> nothing!!! i'm not writing a denotational semantics i'm near falling asleep. if i was writing a denotational semantics though it would be a secret
08:02:09 <elliott> monqy: i don't like secrets!!!
08:02:14 <monqy> "too bad"
08:02:34 <elliott> monqy: it'll gnaw at me!!!
08:02:44 <elliott> it's hurting with pain monqy
08:02:57 <monqy> more pain: i've already written small-step and big-step operational semantics for it
08:03:02 <monqy> more pain: by written i mean in coq
08:03:09 <monqy> can you feel it
08:03:11 <monqy> the gnawing
08:03:21 <elliott> :'(
08:03:36 <elliott> is it your language you're going to write your roguelike in
08:03:42 <monqy> no
08:03:43 <elliott> (imo a very likely guess)
08:03:47 <elliott> what!!! literally impossible
08:04:21 <elliott> monqy: but what IS it!!!!!
08:04:25 <monqy> a secret
08:04:37 <elliott> monqy: when will it stop being secret
08:04:43 <monqy> it will never stop
08:04:54 <monqy> unless you like stalk me and find my name on a paper or something idk
08:04:55 <elliott> no
08:04:56 <elliott> nooooo
08:05:13 <elliott> can you feel the tears inside my eyes
08:05:14 <monqy> my name isn't on any papers yet don't even try
08:06:47 <elliott> monqy: but what
08:06:47 <elliott> is
08:06:49 <elliott> it : ' (
08:07:02 <monqy> a secret
08:07:05 <monqy> it's not even my own project
08:07:26 <monqy> "universety researche"
08:07:36 <elliott> it does not help the gnaweing!!!
08:08:40 <zzo38> "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it." - GK Chesterton
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08:56:02 <Taneb> Hell
08:56:22 <Taneb> o
08:56:53 <kmc> hi Taneb
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09:04:49 <elliott> monqy: this game is so much better than dcss wow
09:04:50 <elliott> it's
09:04:51 <elliott> hilarious
09:04:57 <Sgeo> elliott, which game?
09:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: linley's dungeon crawl 4.1 alpha
09:05:19 <elliott> which caused dcss to exist
09:05:22 <elliott> (and never got out of alpha)
09:05:28 <elliott> it's awful
09:05:54 <Taneb> Still haven't got my laptop working
09:09:12 <kmc> sucks
09:09:16 <kmc> what's wrong
09:10:13 <Taneb> Grub's messed up
09:10:59 <elliott> it's not grub that's messed up
09:11:05 <elliott> it's the whole filesystem
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09:11:49 <Taneb> elliott, I can still access my files when I boot from USB
09:12:33 <elliott> oh you can?
09:12:36 <elliott> on every partition?
09:13:26 <Taneb> Yes
09:15:41 <elliott> hmm
09:15:45 <elliott> it might be fairly easy to repair then
09:15:53 <elliott> catch me when i'm not watching monqy play 4.1
09:15:57 <elliott> and i'll try to help you fix it
09:16:53 <Lumpio-> catch you catch me
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09:25:07 <elliott> monqy: why not daggre :'(
09:25:09 <elliott> *daggere
09:25:15 <elliott> it was glowing !!
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09:29:56 <elliott> monqy: what's V
09:30:01 <monqy> Vaults
09:30:20 <monqy> (the branche)
09:30:20 <elliott> oh
09:30:37 <elliott> monqy: you have to admit, it's more fun than dcss!!!
09:30:48 <monqy> not spen :(
09:31:44 <elliott> monqy: play a mummy!!!
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09:35:39 <Taneb> elliott: can I catch you now?
09:35:48 <elliott> maybe
09:35:52 <elliott> do you have a linux livecd
09:37:29 <Taneb> USB, yeah
09:38:35 <itidus22> A mute character will communicate with hand-held wooden signs on which are scrawled his comments and questions.
09:38:47 <itidus22> Flipping the sign will often display additional messages often more than the two one would expect from a simple two-sided object.
09:39:01 <Lumpio-> Well duh
09:39:05 <Lumpio-> The signs are 4-dimensional
09:39:49 <itidus22> ah so its a 4 dimensional rotation?
09:39:57 <kmc> like this http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11092005
09:40:47 <elliott> Taneb: boot it
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09:41:32 <Taneb> elliott, I'm chatting using it
09:41:39 <elliott> Taneb: open a terminal
09:41:50 <Taneb> Ok
09:42:01 <elliott> Taneb: ok do you have the linux partition mounted
09:42:11 <Taneb> Yes
09:42:19 <elliott> cd to it
09:42:21 <elliott> (brb one second)
09:43:02 <elliott> back
09:43:04 <elliott> Taneb: done?
09:43:10 <itidus22> kmc: that's certainly a quick reply.
09:43:16 <Taneb> elliott: yes
09:43:22 <elliott> sudo chroot .
09:43:39 <Taneb> K
09:43:40 <elliott> then
09:43:44 <elliott> what ubuntu version is it
09:43:49 <Taneb> 12.04
09:44:19 <elliott> oh hmm
09:44:31 <elliott> ok, close that terminal; install the Boot-Repair program instead (through the package manager)
09:44:34 <elliott> then click "Recommended repair"
09:44:36 <elliott> that should automate the grub reinstall
09:44:48 <elliott> oh, it might not be available in the main repos
09:44:51 <elliott> try opening a terminal and
09:44:55 <elliott> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:yannubuntu/boot-repair && sudo apt-get update
09:44:59 <elliott> sudo apt-get install boot-repair
09:45:01 <elliott> then run it
09:45:13 <elliott> also
09:45:21 <elliott> write down the URL it gives after it repairs it
09:45:29 <elliott> I think it has information about your system that could be used if it doesn't work
09:46:59 <Taneb> It's got stuck at Reading Package List... 90%
09:47:45 <elliott> for how long
09:47:46 <elliott> give it a minute
09:47:54 <Taneb> Just changed to 91%
09:47:57 <kmc> itidus22: ?
09:48:16 <Taneb> Nevermind, it's completed
09:49:20 <Taneb> I've...
09:49:24 <Taneb> Just ran out of space?
09:49:34 <elliott> huh?
09:49:40 <elliott> you _did_ do it in another terminal, right?
09:49:47 <Taneb> Yes
09:49:52 <elliott> one second
09:50:04 <elliott> ok show me the exact error please
09:50:13 <Taneb> It's still going
09:50:26 <itidus22> kmc: it took like 1min 10sec after i first mentioned strange flipping signs before you posted the comic reference
09:50:30 <elliott> what
09:50:42 <Taneb> Ah, just stopped
09:50:48 <Taneb> dpkg: error: failed to link '/var/lib/dpkg/available' to '/var/lib/dpkg/available-old' for backup of available database: No space left on device E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (2)
09:50:57 <elliott> hmmmm
09:50:58 <elliott> can you run
09:50:59 <elliott> mount
09:51:02 <elliott> and tell me what it outputs
09:51:21 <Taneb> What's your favourite pastebin?
09:51:28 <elliott> sprunge.us i guess
09:51:41 <elliott> mount | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
09:52:13 <Taneb> Apparantly, I haven't got curl
09:52:31 <elliott> sigh
09:52:34 <elliott> just use hpaste or something :P
09:53:04 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/68376
09:54:23 <elliott> hmm
09:54:28 <elliott> how weird
09:54:32 <elliott> uhhh
09:54:35 <elliott> try rebooting then running the same commands
09:55:58 <elliott> Taneb: failing that
09:56:03 <elliott> look for the repair program in the menus anyway
09:56:03 <elliott> :P
09:56:17 <Taneb> Okay, bye
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09:59:41 <kmc> itidus22: yes
10:01:42 <kmc> using my power of google search
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10:08:48 <kmc> cheater_: cheater_
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10:12:28 <elliott> Hmm, lighting might be inefficient if I do it the way I was going to...
10:20:00 -!- derdon has joined.
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10:24:49 <rszeno> hello everybody
10:25:30 <elliott> hi
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10:35:50 <Taneb> Well, that didn't work
10:35:52 <Taneb> Also, Hello!
10:37:58 <elliott> Taneb: Show me the URL? (In /mgs.)
10:38:00 <elliott> *msg
10:38:12 <Taneb> elliott: it didn't work at all
10:38:16 <Taneb> I'm making a fresh live usb
10:38:20 <elliott> That's not very specific.
10:38:23 <elliott> Did you mean it ran out of space again?
10:38:30 <elliott> If yes, making a new live medium won't help.
10:39:02 <Taneb> It means I tried to make more space and it went horribly wrong while attempting that
10:39:49 <elliott> Very well, then.
10:39:57 <elliott> Oh, right, USB sticks are mutable.
10:40:03 <elliott> I guess that's why it didn't try to install it to a RAM fs.
10:40:05 <elliott> Erm.
10:40:06 <elliott> Yeah.
10:40:09 <elliott> *FS.
10:40:18 <elliott> OK, let me know when you have the new live medium booted.
10:40:49 <elliott> Taneb: You could alternatively download http://sourceforge.net/projects/boot-repair-cd/files/, which has it pre-installed.
10:40:57 <elliott> (And use unetbootin to put it on your USB stick.)
10:41:07 <ion> Finished Portal 2. The ending was brilliant.
10:41:45 <Taneb> Right
10:44:03 <fizzie> Finish the weather game. The ending is tight. And also sweet. Or so I hear.
10:47:03 <fizzie> Also didn't Portal 2's user-generated content steam workshop thing just come out? That doesn't sound very finishable.
10:47:04 <Sgeo> Weather game?
10:47:14 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/20
10:47:47 -!- MoALTz has joined.
10:48:13 <Sgeo> heh
10:48:23 <Sgeo> ion, did you do the 2-player thing?
10:48:32 <ion> fizzie: The single-player main game, duh. :-P
10:48:42 <ion> sgeo: That’s next in TODO. :-)
10:49:08 <fizzie> It doesn't take long.
10:49:36 <fizzie> At least the actual playthrough part. In my case, locating a second player did.
10:50:33 <Sgeo> Played through a bit with a random
10:50:40 <Sgeo> Played through most of it with a friend
10:52:26 <fizzie> Played through it with the built-in voice thing, and got some comments about how nonsensical it sounds to a third-party observer who's not watching the screen, just having to listen to (one side) of the speaking.
10:52:43 <Sgeo> lol
10:55:35 <fizzie> I don't suppose Perpetual Testing Initiative supports the making of coooopy test chambers?
10:57:02 <kmc> portal 2 co-op is one of the most mentally taxing video game experiences i've had
10:58:02 <kmc> you have to coordinate motor skills, spatial reasoning, abstract problem solving, and communicating with another person
10:58:22 <kmc> you have to like make up words to describe the stuff in the level so you can coordinate
10:58:28 <ion> :-)
10:59:44 <fizzie> I don't know, I think it went along quite naturally. I suppose it might depend somewhat on the another person, though.
11:01:16 <cheater_> kmc
11:02:39 <cheater_> kmc did you get lisztomania yet
11:02:47 <kmc> no
11:02:49 <cheater_> it is a maserwork
11:02:54 <cheater_> masterwork too
11:03:01 <kmc> fizzie: i was kinda drunk too
11:03:10 <cheater_> it beats zardoz
11:03:15 <kmc> haha
11:03:19 <cheater_> but not el topo
11:03:26 <cheater_> but nearly
11:04:17 <fizzie> I see there's 39690 entries in the thing already, and it's been out, what, three days?
11:04:46 <cheater_> fizzie, in what thing?
11:05:01 <fizzie> Portal 2's community-generated-map steam-workshop thing.
11:05:57 <cheater_> oh
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11:10:17 <Taneb> elliott, installed the ISO on the USB
11:10:28 <elliott> OK, boot it and use boot-repair.
11:10:53 <elliott> (It might end up downgrading GRUB, but that'll get fixed the next time Ubuntu updates it.)
11:14:26 <Taneb> Okay, I can't get wifi, it seems
11:14:30 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
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11:15:31 <elliott> Taneb: Doesn't matte.r
11:15:33 <elliott> *matter.
11:16:40 <Taneb> It needs internet to run the thingy
11:16:41 <fizzie> The red component of the diffuse reflection color.
11:16:53 <elliott> Taneb: Oh, right.
11:17:00 <elliott> Taneb: Well... try the Ubuntu live medium again.
11:17:02 <Taneb> So, I've plugged in an ethernet cable
11:17:47 <Taneb> It seems to be working
11:18:36 <elliott> Yaey.
11:19:25 <Taneb> Together we're invincible
11:19:55 <Taneb> Oooh, url time
11:19:57 <elliott> Rip.
11:21:21 <Taneb> Let's see if this works
11:21:53 <Taneb> YES
11:21:55 <Taneb> YES
11:21:56 <Taneb> YES
11:21:59 <Taneb> Thank you elliott!
11:22:11 <Taneb> :)
11:22:15 <elliott> Congraetulationse and yuoruea welcomae
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11:28:56 <ion> elliott: Any comments about the pronunciation in the videos?
11:28:58 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:29:08 <ion> I’m curious about the R thing. :-)
11:29:15 <elliott> ion: I still didn't click them (and probably can't be bothered to unless you relink).
11:29:50 <ion> 03:13 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5867126092237181778
11:29:53 <ion> 02:16 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6229002293145728844
11:30:49 <elliott> ion: Ah, the "viaRa" thing.
11:31:06 <elliott> I think you'll find that were the narrator to end a sentence with "via", it would sound the same (with the perceived "r").
11:31:17 <elliott> Actually, not really.
11:31:33 <elliott> I'm not sure exactly what's going on there -- you'd have to ask a linguist -- but the "r" seems rather implicit.
11:31:58 -!- const has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:32:00 <elliott> As in, it's not really there, it's just the two sounds adjacent to each other that end up bridged by one.
11:32:08 * elliott checks the second video.
11:32:16 <elliott> (You realise Look Around You is on YouTube, right?)
11:32:47 <elliott> Yeah, it's definitely a quirk of the (deliberately exaggerated) accent.
11:33:22 <ion> I just clicked on the first video results for my search terms, they happened to be at video.google.com. :-)
11:33:55 <elliott> Ask augur. :p
11:34:24 <ion> augur: <elliott> Ask augur. :p
11:35:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:35:38 <Taneb> Hello!
11:35:43 <Taneb> It's beautiful
11:36:09 <elliott> I'm not. :''''''(
11:36:18 <elliott> :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''(
11:36:27 <ion> elliott: You are beautiful.
11:36:35 <fizzie> Betaful.
11:36:39 <elliott> :'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
11:36:39 <elliott> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''(
11:36:53 <ion> bæutiful
11:37:06 <Taneb> elliott, if I could comment on your beauty, the universe would explode
11:37:14 <elliott> hålp
11:37:16 <ion> elliott: You should prefix that with @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo
11:37:25 <elliott> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hjålp
11:37:25 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo @
11:37:25 <lambdabot> echo hj\195\165lp"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#
11:37:25 <lambdabot> esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\195\\165lp\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/
11:37:25 <lambdabot> elliott\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\\\195\\\\165lp\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\",
11:37:25 <lambdabot> msgLBName = \\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\", msgPrefix = \\\\\\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@@ @
11:37:27 <lambdabot> echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\\\\\\\195\\\\\\\\165lp\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"hj\\\\\\\\195\\\\\\\\165lp\\\\\\\"\\\"\""
11:37:40 <kmc> oh dear
11:37:45 <kmc> @echo foo
11:37:45 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]}
11:37:45 <lambdabot> rest:"foo"
11:38:04 <elliott> I wonder if saying @print-notices in public would have lambdabot leak @tells to the channel, or if it has prevention against that.
11:38:09 <elliott> (Not that I'm going to test.)
11:38:28 <Taneb> You could test it in a private channel?
11:38:37 <elliott> Well, I'd have to make lambdabot join it.
11:38:41 <Taneb> Ah, true
11:38:42 <elliott> But I suppose I could.
11:39:07 <kmc> lambdabot: y u so racist
11:39:15 <kmc> escaping non-ascii characters like they're second-class citizens
11:39:21 <ion> You can also “@time” any channel lambdabot is on (and any other channel without +n).
11:39:34 <elliott> @time #haskell
11:40:01 <elliott> Answer: yes, @print-notices works in public.
11:40:11 <elliott> Unless it has a special case for channels with only one person in them!!!!
11:40:37 <elliott> .@quit
11:40:45 <elliott> (That felt too scary to even risk a space in front of.)
11:40:51 <ion> hah
11:41:52 <kmc> i'm watching british TV from a youtube video which was captured by a screengrab program from the channel4.com website flash player
11:41:57 <kmc> hooray computers
11:42:12 <Taneb> Not 4oD?
11:42:16 <elliott> I have the Look Around You DVDs.
11:42:26 <elliott> Maybe I should upload them to YouTube in HIGH-DEFINITION. :p
11:42:32 <elliott> (I assume that's what kmc's watching, given the context, but maybe not.)
11:42:36 <elliott> Wait, Look Around You is BBC.
11:42:44 <elliott> My country is complicated. : (
11:42:47 <elliott> Hjålp.
11:43:04 <elliott> Wait, it's "hjälp"?
11:43:05 <ion> I should get the LAY DVDs, too.
11:43:09 <elliott> That's shitty.
11:43:17 <Taneb> Twice the dots!
11:43:20 <ion> hjälp sounds Swedish.
11:43:25 <elliott> hjålp looks funnier, though.
11:43:28 <elliott> ion: It is.
11:43:41 -!- elliott has set topic: hjålp http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:43:43 <ion> Hjålp would be pronounced hjolp.
11:43:59 <elliott> Not in my mind. :(
11:44:08 <kmc> elliott: no, I'm watching Peep Show
11:44:10 <Taneb> With a hard j or a soft j?
11:44:16 <elliott> kmc: Same thing.
11:44:32 <fizzie> "Look Around Your DVDs", the show about how to keep your DVD collection in order.
11:44:32 <ion> taneb: As in “yes”, i think.
11:44:57 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity512.html
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11:51:40 <elliott> ƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒ
11:51:51 <elliott> †_†
11:51:58 <elliott> h¡alp
11:52:07 <elliott> h√alp
11:52:12 <elliott> ≤hjalp≥
11:52:25 <elliott> hjÚlp
11:53:06 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL60DDD0F77698B8EB
11:53:08 <Sgeo> <3 <3 <3
11:53:37 <ion> Meanwhile in the 2370s https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542294_467069256642918_122908054392375_2060207_456662483_n.jpg
11:53:41 <elliott> SimonRC: Hey, you haven't said a single thing in 2012.
11:53:59 <elliott> SimonRC: Rectify this.
11:54:12 <cheater_> kmc do you ever eat steak?
11:54:46 <ion> elliott: He has spoken twice via HackEgo.
11:55:17 <fizzie> Is that like when you contact the dead via a medium?
11:55:54 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:58:25 <Taneb> Hello
11:58:30 <elliott> Taneb: More like Benat, rightt?
11:58:31 <elliott> *right?
11:58:48 <elliott> Benat and Dvegn.
11:58:48 <Taneb> Oh god how did you know
11:58:58 <elliott> wat
11:59:20 <elliott> ≈hjålp≈
11:59:57 <Taneb> "Taneb" is a reversal of a portmanteau of contractions of my and my brother's names
12:00:23 <elliott> Oh, is the "nat" for "Nathan"?
12:01:22 -!- _niels has joined.
12:01:43 <elliott> `welcome _niels
12:01:51 <HackEgo> ​_niels: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:01:56 <_niels> thanks, elliott
12:02:11 <Taneb> elliott, yes
12:02:56 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:04:02 <_niels> > 2 + 2
12:04:03 <lambdabot> 4
12:04:08 <_niels> =]
12:04:49 -!- _niels has left.
12:04:52 <elliott> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
12:04:53 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
12:04:55 <elliott> What, already?
12:05:08 <elliott> How can you recognise lambdabot and give up on #esoteric that quickly?
12:05:58 <elliott> ^rainbow hjålp
12:05:58 <fungot> hjlp
12:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: Please fix fungot's Unicode support. It's not that hard. :(
12:06:08 <fungot> elliott: i haven't looked. :p " nanotechnology" " i want")
12:08:32 <Taneb> Install skype, recieve call on skype, skype freezes
12:08:33 <Taneb> :/
12:11:50 <fizzie> I suppose I should, since it'd just be a single preprocessing step thingie, since the fungespace cells are quite capable of holding any codepoints.
12:12:06 <elliott> :')
12:12:41 <fizzie> On the other hand, is hj&Auml;&yen;lp really so bad?
12:13:58 <elliott> Yes.
12:14:04 <elliott> It has completely ruined the purity of the hjålp.
12:14:23 <elliott> (Technically I must note that it'd also be a postprocessing step thingy.)
12:14:27 <elliott> But think how much more useful ^ord would become!
12:15:46 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe I'LL do it.
12:15:50 <elliott> ^source
12:15:50 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
12:16:04 <elliott> fizzie: Where's the read loop. :(
12:16:22 <fizzie> Line 56 does the main read.
12:16:41 <fizzie> Though I suppose it could as well go into the bit where it has extracted a full line out.
12:17:08 <elliott> fizzie: Would that work for: UNICODE USERNAMES?
12:17:24 <elliott> I suppose I could iterate over all of them or something.
12:17:33 <elliott> But it seems like it'd be easier to just turn one string into one string.
12:17:56 <elliott> This is complicated. :(
12:18:01 <fizzie> It's still turning just one string into one string when you do it after it's extracted a single line, before it gets split into fields.
12:18:44 <fizzie> That'd be around line 73; the parts below it expect there to be a single complete line somewhere.
12:19:00 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I see what you mean.
12:19:06 <elliott> Why would it be better to do it there, out of curiosity?
12:19:16 <elliott> (Also would this break the ^bf interpreter's input?)
12:19:57 <fizzie> I suppose the only reason why it'd be better to do it after line-splitting (as opposed to immediately after the R) is that you wouldn't have to deal with incomplete UTF-8 sequences.
12:21:17 <fizzie> At line 73, there's a single full line on fungespace line 3 that could be deutfied. (Based on the fact that the prefix-looking bit starts with 03g':-.)
12:21:37 <elliott> "fungespace line 3"?
12:21:54 <fizzie> You know, Y=3, X=0, 1, 2, ... and so on.
12:22:12 <elliott> Wouldn't that be fungespace line 73?
12:22:14 <elliott> (But that ^bf thing still worries me.)
12:22:21 <elliott> *And that, I suppose.
12:22:48 <fizzie> No, I mean, the data is stored on "physical" Y-coordinate 3.
12:23:08 <elliott> Ah, you mean the line itself?
12:23:10 <fizzie> Yes.
12:23:15 <elliott> OK.
12:23:19 <elliott> Where's output done? (And what about bf?!?!?!)
12:23:26 <elliott> *^bf
12:24:54 <fizzie> I guess you'd need to do something w.r.t. ^bf, yes. I'm not entirely sure what. All the current programs are written in the "one cell, one character" logic.
12:25:11 <elliott> Hmm, I suppose that's actually what you want, if you want things like ^rainbow to work.
12:25:15 <elliott> But OTOH, that would break the 8-bitness of it.
12:25:18 <elliott> Which is unfortunate.
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12:25:33 <fizzie> Right. Though I'm not sure if there's anything that really depends on the 8-bit wrapping.
12:25:47 <fizzie> In the existing programs people have used, that is.
12:25:54 <elliott> Well, it's still nice to have, considering it's the only usable BF interpreter in the channel.
12:26:03 <elliott> I suppose I could just fix ^rainbow itself.
12:26:14 <elliott> But knowing how many characters to wait before changing to the next colour in BF sounds... painful.
12:26:19 <elliott> BF doesn't exactly have bitwise and.
12:26:45 <fizzie> That is a true statement.
12:29:40 <fizzie> As for output, it's slightly more complicated. There are in fact several places that write to the socket.
12:29:57 <elliott> fungot is rather badly-designed!
12:29:57 <fungot> elliott: so do we still lack that thing anyway.
12:30:01 <elliott> fungot: Yes.
12:30:02 <fungot> elliott: there's not much point. its always visible. only that too bloated is far better, qdb is inexplicably beating it in times.
12:30:13 <elliott> fungot: You're always visible?
12:30:14 <fungot> elliott: pygments is great. i cannot find -the- implementation for my first time here, can i make http://paste.phpfi.com/ fnord ( looks like we gonna have fun
12:30:15 <fizzie> Too bloated is far better, yes.
12:30:36 <elliott> fungot: You apparently can't make it, since that pastebin seems to have died. Are we really gonna have fun?
12:30:43 <elliott> fizzie: That wasn't 5 lines.
12:31:00 <fizzie> It's supposed to be four, I think. But it wasn't four either.
12:31:18 <fizzie> Maybe you had some leftovers from a previous discussion.
12:31:31 <elliott> fizzie: Make it speak to me. :(
12:31:38 <fizzie> fungot: Speak to elliott.
12:31:38 <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't seem to support define-syntax? ( beyond the obvious mere existence of c code)
12:31:47 <fizzie> elliott: Do you support define-syntax?
12:31:54 <elliott> No. No macros for me. :(
12:31:59 <fizzie> fungot: You were right.
12:31:59 <fungot> fizzie: multithreading is of course more productive in scheme, avoid set!, how would you fnord it? you can tell
12:32:03 <elliott> fungot: The mere existence of C code isn't obvious to me! Sent from my @puter
12:32:03 <fungot> elliott: what scheme system? probably. it'll be crazy and do your own thing" language. but to use a us keyboard mapping
12:32:25 <elliott> fungot: No, not Scheme; @lang. It is, indeed, a "crazy and does my own thing" language.
12:32:25 <fungot> elliott: well, maybe i need to
12:32:26 <fizzie> It's much about Scheme today.
12:32:33 <elliott> fungot: Use @? Yes, you should. It's perfect.
12:32:33 <fungot> elliott: you know c++? with templates? its just some number of continuations, though,
12:32:49 <elliott> fungot: No! It's nothing like C++, and templates are an abomination! And what do continuations have to do with this?
12:32:49 <fungot> elliott: it will work. i'll be here all week. try the --large command-line option.
12:32:55 <elliott> fungot --large
12:33:07 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a silly.
12:33:07 <fungot> fizzie: ' you have to go
12:33:12 <elliott> Oh dear.
12:33:15 <elliott> fungot: Rebelling against your maker, are we?
12:33:15 <fungot> elliott: i am in error, by the way,
12:33:26 <elliott> fungot: Sounds like you're having a breakdown.
12:33:26 <fungot> elliott: mm-hmm. openbsd does some tricky under-the-hood trickery ( not quite, sorry. :p
12:33:28 <fizzie> In fact it was correct, I *do* have to go.
12:33:39 <elliott> fungot: The trickery is tricky? Astonishing.
12:33:39 <fungot> elliott: you, sir)) to use set! anywhere else?
12:33:46 <elliott> fizzie: I think he's going to mutate you.
12:33:50 <elliott> *it's
12:33:52 <elliott> (Sorry, fungot.)
12:33:52 <fungot> elliott: please input two numbers to get the hostesses released! give them their own lines produces ugly output.) also, did you know
12:33:52 <fizzie> Scary.
12:33:59 <elliott> fungot: 3 7
12:34:06 <elliott> fizzie: Don't worry, you're free now.
12:34:23 <fizzie> fungot: You're so irrational.
12:34:23 <fungot> fizzie: are you a student or professional? " i don't really understand what and how you can interpret it as " the wire"
12:34:41 <elliott> fungot: Well, he doesn't study, and he's not professional.
12:34:42 <fungot> elliott: recruit them for me even in rlwrap ( ie doesn't quit)
12:34:50 <elliott> fungot: You still want to recruit him knowing that?
12:34:50 <fungot> elliott: so the point is that bill richter interprets incorrectly and out of it.
12:35:03 <elliott> fungot: Bill Ritcher, eh?
12:35:03 <fungot> elliott: it ran... i ran upon a problem and found that 99% of them would not be useful
12:35:09 <fizzie> fungot: Technically speaking I guess I am a student. I have a study right and all, I just enrolled the other day.
12:35:10 <fungot> fizzie: i may be imagining others, though, by about 12% of the us, too.
12:35:12 <elliott> fungot: It's true, most problems aren't very useful at all.
12:35:12 <fungot> elliott: don't you have more than one? the interactive fiction language?
12:35:30 <elliott> fungot: There are... multiple languages for writing interactive fiction in, yes.
12:35:30 <fungot> elliott: fnord/ fnord/ fnord question 2. polecat, fnord, fnord
12:35:31 <fizzie> Okay, I have to be going out now to see a man about a horse. (Well, no. But anyway.)
12:35:35 <elliott> fungot: Oh, come on.
12:35:36 <fungot> elliott: that's a bit more complex, but i think most scheme-c compilers compile for something that isn't c or bash :) ( there's also a function plotter, if i remember
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12:53:25 <kmc> cheater_: yeah i eat steak
12:53:31 <kmc> once i cooked a steak sous vide
12:53:32 <kmc> it was great
12:56:42 <kmc> do u know how sous vide works cheater_
12:57:13 <itidus22> as a poor diabetic, the things i crave most of all are fried potato chips and various kinds of kfc chicken pieces
12:58:06 <itidus22> also.. false teeth like movie stars have which are like screwon
12:58:19 <itidus22> i fricken hate toothaches
12:59:28 <Taneb> Well, the creator of Fortress Craft has replied to TWICE as many tweets of mine as the creator of Minecraft
12:59:34 <Taneb> Clearly the former is a superior game
13:00:04 <cheater_> kmc: i have never tried, but i should
13:00:44 <kmc> i did it with minimal equipment
13:00:50 <kmc> just a pot of water, a ziploc bag, and a candy thermometer
13:01:30 <elliott> Taneb: Hmm, DjArcas. Is that the loudmouthed moron they got to promote that thing?
13:01:35 <elliott> I forget who it was.
13:01:41 <elliott> But I think it started with "Dj".
13:01:46 <kmc> the next step up is a beer cooler
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13:02:14 <cheater_> kmc: yeah, i know it's "easy"
13:02:27 <Taneb> elliott, I believe he's also the creator
13:02:28 <cheater_> i don't have a candy thermometer, why do you need that specifically?
13:02:35 <cheater_> speaking of candy
13:02:40 <cheater_> the steak i cooked today was amazing
13:02:47 <cheater_> it was like flesh-flavoured candy
13:03:02 <elliott> All I remember is reports of him flipping out and calling people gay at the slightest provocation.
13:03:04 <elliott> Good PR.
13:03:46 <cheater_> i fried it in french orange mustard (nearly like jam/jelly), with red peppers and ginger, and some italian mustard apples
13:03:49 <elliott> ("The slightest provocation" being "people saying they don't like FortressCraft".)
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13:05:39 <Taneb> Sounds like him, yeah
13:08:27 <itidus22> is fortresscraft better?
13:08:47 <Taneb> It looks nicer
13:09:31 <itidus22> i probably would have bought minecraft if i had online money..
13:09:34 <elliott> (For bad values of "better".)
13:09:38 <elliott> (Especially if you use Painterly on the Minecraft side.)
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13:10:15 <itidus22> which is not something i enjoy thinking about today because i just gave my mum all my money, and apparently have to visit both my grandmas for mothers day
13:11:24 <itidus22> and in the back of my mind with games like this im always telling myself i could do this better, and i could be richer from this, if only i was the one who did it
13:13:37 <itidus22> and why are 500% more people registering at minecraft.net than buying the game!?!
13:17:04 <kmc> cheater_: you need a thermometer because the point of sous vide is to keep the meat at a constant temperature for a long time
13:17:08 <kmc> so that the inside reaches that temperature
13:17:56 <kmc> it doesn't need to be a candy thermometer specifically
13:18:27 <kmc> but you want like a couple °F precision, in the range 130°F to 140°F
13:18:44 <kmc> cheap candy thermometer has these properties and can be found in a regular grocery store
13:20:35 <itidus22> my life sucks in a first world problems kind of way. if only i could exploit the problems in my life for capitalist gain.
13:21:28 <cheater_> you know what
13:21:35 <cheater_> i have an electric hotplate
13:21:47 <cheater_> i bet you could arduino a sous vide automat
13:22:55 <cheater_> i'll totally do it once i can buy a power relay
13:23:29 <kmc> yes
13:23:42 <kmc> relay is easy, you probably want feedback though
13:23:57 <cheater_> the feedback is the thermometer
13:24:00 <cheater_> and the fagduino
13:24:21 <kmc> i tried to build a temperature controller for another project but i fried the thermocouple driver chip due to failure to read datasheet
13:24:24 <kmc> however it's not hard in principle
13:24:58 <cheater_> could this be my unique chance to do something useful with a PID
13:25:21 <kmc> that was for soldering oven temperatures and so a thermocouple was probably the right answer
13:25:21 <itidus22> wonders if fried the thermocouple almost counts as a pun in the topic of cooking
13:25:42 <cheater_> http://arduino.cc/playground/Code/PIDLibrary
13:25:45 <cheater_> haha
13:25:53 <cheater_> "processing.org frontend"
13:26:02 <cheater_> yeah, i can create a sous vide visualization
13:26:09 <kmc> for sous vide temperatures you could use a 1-wire temperature sensor like DS18B20
13:26:14 <cheater_> and veejay it to remote places via direct isdn uplink
13:26:29 <kmc> even on sparkfun it's only $10 in a sealed package: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/11050
13:26:29 <cheater_> how do you know so much about electronics kmc
13:27:17 <kmc> and that will interface directly to any microcontroller
13:27:21 <kmc> i should do this
13:27:25 <cheater_> you should
13:27:27 <kmc> i already have the heating element too
13:27:28 <cheater_> for great glory
13:27:37 <kmc> i was dreading it because i forgot it would be much easier than the thermocouple thing
13:27:40 <cheater_> why not make it work with a hotplate
13:28:11 <kmc> hm this one suggests a rice cooker
13:28:27 <cheater_> hotplate is easier, because more people have one and it's cheap and small
13:28:39 <cheater_> more approachable for people
13:28:51 <kmc> rice cooker is too small to hold multiple large steaks
13:28:54 <cheater_> a rice cooker is a fairly specific utensil you normally don't have
13:28:55 <cheater_> yea
13:28:59 <kmc> i think i'll go for the beer cooler with the heating element i already have
13:29:10 <cheater_> that too, i was just going to say you could just use a big pot
13:29:11 <kmc> which won't be enough to get it up to temp
13:29:11 <cheater_> hmm
13:29:14 <cheater_> beer cooler?
13:29:21 <kmc> but should keep it at temp
13:29:25 <kmc> so i will just fill it with hot water to start
13:29:36 <cheater_> i wouldn't be so sure
13:29:52 <cheater_> from experience, heating stuff is a thing that either works or doesn't
13:29:55 <kmc> i don't know if "beer cooler" is the right term
13:30:06 <kmc> i mean like those insulated plastic bins you pack with ice and beer
13:30:10 <cheater_> there's no way to "give it a shove"
13:30:19 <cheater_> ice chest?
13:30:33 <kmc> yeah
13:30:46 <kmc> something like this http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1342596&cp=11925755.2614192
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13:31:45 <cheater_> ice chest
13:32:04 <cheater_> or yeah, just Rubbermaid® Victory Cooler
13:32:18 <cheater_> hey kmc, what do u think of my idea
13:32:31 <cheater_> i was looking at alsa paints last night when i couldn't sleep
13:32:36 <cheater_> and i noticed they have a rubberizing paint
13:32:44 <cheater_> so: keyboard with rubberized keycaps?
13:32:55 <cheater_> "Like" or "Fail"?
13:33:17 <kmc> i would have to try it cheater
13:33:39 <cheater_> yeah, i think so too
13:33:49 <cheater_> but like, rubberized knobs on equipment are the dog's bollocks
13:34:09 <cheater_> and they use this paint for cutlery and other daily use stuff, so it's not something that'll wear off
13:34:52 <kmc> these coolers are pretty well insulated so I think a small heater should suffice to maintain temperature
13:35:22 <kmc> i wish they had ratings in watts per kelvin or whatever
13:35:42 <cheater_> notice "pretty well insulated" still means if you have ice in it then it'll melt fairly quickly
13:35:59 <cheater_> you'd need a heater which can at least withstand the amount of energy being expelled
13:36:22 <cheater_> which is probably very near to the heater that you need to heat it up in the first place
13:36:31 <cheater_> why not just buy a 10 bucks hotplate?
13:36:53 <cheater_> sounds like the rational choice
13:36:56 <kmc> i don't see how that follows cheater
13:37:00 <cheater_> in fact, we should write an article on rationalwiki
13:37:16 <cheater_> which part can you not see the logical sequence of, kmc?
13:37:47 <kmc> getting a bunch of water from 23°C to 57°C in an acceptable amount of time will take a much larger heater than keeping it at 57° in an insulated container
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13:38:57 <cheater_> you're probably right
13:39:04 <kmc> i'm gonna run the numbers, one sec
13:39:05 <cheater_> but i am not sure either way
13:39:11 <cheater_> right, there's physics
13:39:29 <cheater_> but how can you measure the amount of heat being lost through the insulation?
13:39:42 <kmc> i will approximate it by the thermal conductivity of styrofoam
13:40:21 <cheater_> if you have the area and thickness
13:40:31 <cheater_> although the edges will be less conductive
13:42:16 <kmc> let's say a cube 30 cm on a side with 3 cm styrofoam insulation
13:42:26 <cheater_> yea
13:42:39 <cheater_> work your magic, carl
13:42:56 <kmc> that's 0.54 m² surface area
13:43:45 <kmc> thermal conductivity of styrofoam is 0.03 W / (K * m) according to A Website
13:44:03 <cheater_> wikipedia
13:44:09 <kmc> 0.03 W / (K * m) * 0.54 m² / 3 cm * (57 - 23) K
13:44:14 <kmc> = 18 watts
13:44:46 <cheater_> is your heating element 18 watts
13:44:56 <cheater_> and i'd double up on that
13:45:20 <kmc> a cheap hotplate is like 800 watts
13:45:27 <cheater_> yup
13:45:32 <kmc> i don't know about my element
13:45:48 <cheater_> so kmc
13:45:48 <kmc> it's like a small thing you put in a mug of water to make tea
13:45:50 <cheater_> show me your element
13:45:54 <kmc> brb
13:45:58 <cheater_> *nudge nudge*
13:46:27 <cheater_> http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Immersion-Water-Heater-Voltage/dp/B000AXS0UE
13:46:33 <cheater_> Heating immersion 125 watt coil quickly heats up water
13:46:44 <cheater_> i am suggesting this is similar to your thing
13:47:03 <cheater_> HOWEVER, you might be in for a problem
13:47:11 <kmc> it says 125 W
13:47:18 <cheater_> there you go
13:47:19 <kmc> yes it's exactly like that one
13:47:23 <cheater_> i totally oracled you
13:47:30 <cheater_> i am you from the future
13:47:50 <cheater_> the problem is in normal sous vide cooking, you're heating a hot plate which heats a pot which heats water which heats the meat
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13:48:16 <cheater_> a lot of very sluggish heat capacitance
13:48:29 <cheater_> it works like a low pass filter for heat
13:48:33 <cheater_> and also spreads it evenly
13:48:40 <cheater_> here you are heating water directly which heats the meat
13:48:44 <cheater_> you might end up with a pocket of heat
13:48:58 <cheater_> which may or may not be advisable
13:49:32 <kmc> either way, the pot full of water is by far most of the thermal mass
13:49:38 <cheater_> yeah
13:49:43 <cheater_> it is
13:49:52 <cheater_> wait
13:49:57 <cheater_> in sous vide you put a pot in a pot
13:49:58 <cheater_> right?
13:50:00 <kmc> so i think this cooler full of water will hold temperature fine
13:50:09 <cheater_> or am i wrong here
13:50:12 <kmc> might need something to circulate the water though
13:50:16 <kmc> cheater_: not necessarily
13:50:24 <cheater_> yeah i thought you might need the circulation
13:50:25 <kmc> you put food inside a bag inside a water bath
13:50:30 <cheater_> so have you ever made sous vide before?
13:50:34 <kmc> yes
13:50:37 <kmc> i did sous vide steak twice
13:50:37 <cheater_> was it good?
13:50:44 <kmc> it was delicious
13:50:52 <cheater_> what was the difference
13:50:56 <kmc> i did like 135°F for an hour
13:51:17 <kmc> it's just a foolproof way to get the exact level of rare / well-done you like
13:51:27 <cheater_> an hour is not that long
13:51:31 <kmc> yeah it's not
13:51:33 <cheater_> i thought the idea was to have it on very long
13:51:38 <kmc> some sous vide recipes are like 24 hours plus
13:51:43 <kmc> but for beef it's not necessary apparently
13:51:45 <cheater_> i cooked steaks in a pot for an hour
13:51:48 <kmc> you just need to get the inside up to temperature
13:51:54 <cheater_> like with sauce
13:52:12 <cheater_> oh i didn't know that
13:52:18 <cheater_> when is 24 hours mandatory?
13:52:21 <kmc> i don't know
13:53:04 <cheater_> k
13:53:09 <kmc> i'm no chef, i can barely cook kraft mac & cheese
13:53:18 <kmc> but the sous vide stuff seemed easy and fun and sciency
13:53:19 <cheater_> hurr
13:53:26 <cheater_> yeah, steak comes natural to me too
13:53:36 <cheater_> i go to restaurants and they never make it as good as i do
13:53:40 <kmc> with sous vde steak you do want to fry or grill it briefly
13:53:42 <cheater_> but i can't cook for my life
13:53:45 <cheater_> yeah
13:53:48 <cheater_> sear
13:53:50 <cheater_> actually
13:53:50 <kmc> to get the outside all burnt & crispy
13:53:51 <kmc> yeah
13:53:58 <cheater_> i bought a steel pan especially for steak
13:54:08 <cheater_> but i wouldn't do this candied steak in it
13:54:19 <kmc> wonder if a crème brûlée torch would work
13:54:22 <cheater_> had to use a tefal pan because you gotta burn the mustard
13:54:30 <cheater_> so that it carmelizes
13:54:33 <cheater_> caramelizes
13:54:34 <kmc> mm
13:54:42 <cheater_> creme brulee wouldn't work
13:54:48 <cheater_> because the thing has to sear into the meat
13:54:57 <kmc> mostly i fry stuff in cast iron pans
13:55:20 <cheater_> what i did was spread a 4 mm coat of that mustard on the cold pan where the steak would be
13:55:33 <cheater_> i put the steak on that and put the pan on the heat
13:55:41 <cheater_> waited until it started searing
13:55:46 <cheater_> no oil or anything
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13:56:43 <cheater_> i applied spices (lots of ginger, it disappears later on, lots of red pepper) and then put the mustard on the top (still raw side)
13:56:44 <cheater_> flip once
13:56:59 <cheater_> sear the other side
13:57:05 <cheater_> the first side looked really nice too
13:57:17 <cheater_> you know the mustard is carmelizing when it starts foaming up
13:58:15 <cheater_> the mustard you want isn't the usual sour stuff, it should look like orange jelly, the kind you put on toast, but it tastes tart
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13:59:25 <cheater_> hey kmc do you know the difference between vector and superscalar?
14:05:07 <kmc> in processors?
14:05:29 <cheater_> yeah
14:05:30 <kmc> that steak sounds really nice
14:05:34 <cheater_> i found out already tho
14:05:36 <kmc> k
14:05:42 <cheater_> yeah it was amazing
14:05:50 <cheater_> i did it several times now and it's always better
14:05:58 <cheater_> trying to perfect the recipe
14:06:09 <cheater_> next time i'll use much more ginger because it was like not there at all
14:07:20 <kmc> ginger is good
14:07:22 <cheater_> and maybe long pepper
14:07:25 <kmc> do you ever cook with szechuan pepper
14:07:33 <cheater_> i was thinking of it
14:07:35 <cheater_> but it wouldn't fit
14:07:47 <cheater_> the one i have is too alkaline
14:07:53 <cheater_> for lack of a better description
14:08:02 <cheater_> this stuff is sweet and sour
14:08:07 <cheater_> and bitter
14:08:38 <cheater_> have you ever tried long pepper
14:08:48 <cheater_> i've never heard of it until i found it at a christmas fair last year
14:09:23 <cheater_> or should i say
14:09:26 <cheater_> winter solstice fair
14:09:26 <cheater_> heh
14:12:19 <cheater_> kmc: apparently ebay has a lot of ready pid controllers
14:12:25 <cheater_> you just search for "temperature kiln"
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14:16:16 <kmc> cool
14:16:37 <kmc> wow super cheap
14:17:15 <cheater_> what's the cheapest you found?
14:17:25 <kmc> i'll probably build it myself though
14:17:44 <kmc> it should be a super easy build
14:17:58 <kmc> and it would amuse me to have something that plugs into my laptop
14:18:16 <cheater_> is pid that easy
14:18:19 <kmc> and a good excuse to learn some basic control theory
14:18:30 <cheater_> yeah the learning is there for me too
14:18:35 <cheater_> the incentive
14:18:47 <kmc> it would be cool to see the temperature graph with the element on/off indications
14:18:50 <kmc> in realtime
14:19:11 <kmc> http://www.instructables.com/id/Segstick/ here's a fun build project, which includes some PID control
14:19:17 <cheater_> hard realtime or soft realtime
14:19:24 <kmc> lol just soft
14:19:25 <cheater_> *niggle*
14:19:26 <kmc> just for UI
14:19:36 <cheater_> i'm just fucking with ya.
14:19:41 <kmc> cheater_ you niggler
14:20:02 <cheater_> kmc you crackler
14:21:18 <cheater_> snap crackle and php
14:27:12 <kmc> :(
14:28:07 <nortti> ? for some reason I have internationale on my touhou playlist...
14:34:38 <cheater_> it's funny
14:34:44 <cheater_> i'm learning basic italian
14:34:49 <cheater_> and i can already understand some spanish
14:34:54 <cheater_> those languages are closer than i thought
14:35:03 <cheater_> it's not like polish and czech or latvian or russian
14:35:10 <cheater_> which are pretty close themselves
14:35:37 <cheater_> or like german and dutch
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14:43:28 <qfr> Uh
14:43:32 <qfr> cheater_ Latcvia
14:43:40 <qfr> cheater_ Latvian isn't close to Slavic languages really
14:43:55 <qfr> Did you mean Latvian vs. Lithuanian?"
14:43:57 <qfr> Those are closer
14:46:40 <cheater_> no i meant to polish
14:47:01 <qfr> ;o
14:51:59 <kmc> cheater_: i might visit baltic states / eastern europe / etc this summer
14:52:03 <kmc> anywhere i should go or avoid?
14:52:12 <cheater_> yes
14:52:16 <cheater_> baltic states
14:52:17 <cheater_> to both
14:52:46 <cheater_> but more so to the latter
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14:52:55 <cheater_> much more
14:53:25 <cheater_> unless you will go to jail if you don't go to said baltic states, there's no reason to go there
14:53:43 <cheater_> any amount of illness or misfortune is preferable
14:59:12 <cheater_> kmc: did you figure out if Touch is good or bad yet
15:01:58 <cheater_> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4567.html
15:08:19 <kmc> cheater_: it's definitely very bad
15:08:22 <kmc> but also kind of interesting
15:08:37 <cheater_> ok not watching
15:10:57 <kmc> the math / science / philosophy is beyond nonsensical
15:11:01 <kmc> like, i can suspend disbelief
15:11:25 <kmc> i'm not one of those people who will complain because a character says "centrifugal" instead of "centripetal", or that the Linux box looks more like a SunOS 2 machine
15:11:34 <kmc> but this show is really pushing it
15:11:54 <cheater_> is it like Numbers
15:12:05 <kmc> it's far worse than NUMB3RS
15:12:19 <kmc> it's like the movie Pi except without the good writing or acting or directing
15:13:17 <kmc> a lot of it reminds me of the trailer for The Numberwang Code
15:13:25 <cheater_> i could never watch it
15:13:30 <kmc> like this kid writes a 6 on a piece of paper and everyone is like "WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!??"
15:13:30 <cheater_> on the other hand Pi was amazing
15:13:44 <cheater_> it means
15:13:46 <cheater_> NUMBERWANG!!!
15:13:51 <kmc> this other guy has a win-big hold 'em poker strategy which is based entirely on him memorizing a short sequence of small numbers
15:13:53 <itidus22> they should really make a fictional film with 100% mathematical and scientific accuracy
15:14:03 <kmc> the same sequence which is also the key to life the universe and everything
15:14:20 <kmc> they also just make other shit up whenever it suits them
15:14:38 <kmc> like they decided that the ISS has regular blackout periods where they can't communicate with earth
15:14:41 <cheater_> have you never had a situation like Pi in your life
15:14:42 <kmc> just because it suits the plot
15:14:43 <cheater_> like
15:14:55 <cheater_> sitting around in your flat for weeks not going out
15:14:58 <cheater_> hacking away at some shit
15:15:04 <cheater_> then you come out and everyone feels so alien
15:15:12 <cheater_> i think that's what pi is about
15:15:13 <kmc> then you get kidnapped by orthodox jews
15:15:19 <kmc> then you drill your brains out with a power drill and go to heaven
15:15:21 <cheater_> ^
15:15:21 <kmc> yes that's happened to me
15:15:38 <itidus22> cheater_: i have experienced that... but to me it's not just people but the entire environment
15:15:38 <kmc> also one time i was riding the subway and found a bare human brain sitting on the platform
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15:15:47 <cheater_> kmc ok then you know what i mean
15:15:53 <cheater_> itidus22: yeah, exactly
15:16:09 <itidus22> yeah i know that feeling... i don't particularly enjoy it
15:16:21 <itidus22> infact i dread it
15:16:22 <kmc> ok so what else about Touch
15:16:36 <kmc> they are really unsubtle about the simplistic emotions you are supposed to experience while watching it
15:16:45 <itidus22> i haven't seen pi thouhg
15:16:45 <cheater_> itidus22: it's weird alright
15:16:50 <cheater_> itidus22: you should
15:17:08 <kmc> the dialogue is terrible, a lot of it is just characters saying things they would never realistically say so that the audience is not confused
15:17:21 <cheater_> kmc: sounds like everything i hate about tv series
15:17:35 <itidus22> chea:so.. if the problem is gradually being identified maybe i can get a pill or therapy for it within a decade!
15:17:37 <itidus22> ahhh
15:17:41 <itidus22> cheater_: so.. if the problem is gradually being identified maybe i can get a pill or therapy for it within a decade!
15:17:54 <cheater_> just do what the character did in the end
15:17:58 <cheater_> worked for him
15:18:05 <itidus22> i have a plan..
15:18:09 <itidus22> i certainly have a plan
15:18:14 <cheater_> but do you have a drill?
15:18:21 <kmc> also they had a blatant Magic Negro character but I guess i already complained about that
15:18:22 <itidus22> uh no
15:18:49 <cheater_> 16:22 restate my assumptions: 1. kmc is a troll
15:18:53 <kmc> haha
15:19:00 <kmc> @remember <cheater_> 16:22 restate my assumptions: 1. kmc is a troll
15:19:00 <lambdabot> It is stored.
15:19:18 <itidus22> cheater_: but you said he was hacking away at something... and you're saying this wasn't enough to save him
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15:19:21 <itidus22> thats a concern
15:19:32 <itidus22> is the problem that he didn't hack away good enough?
15:19:34 <cheater_> just watch the movie
15:19:41 <cheater_> no he hacked to good
15:19:45 <kmc> itidus22: no the problem is that he was too good
15:19:46 <cheater_> he totally disconnected
15:19:47 <kmc> you should watch it
15:19:49 <cheater_> he was in the flow for too long
15:19:51 <cheater_> in the zone
15:19:52 <kmc> then you should watch Requiem for a Dream
15:20:14 <cheater_> he was so deep into it he completely dissociated the real world
15:20:17 <kmc> then you'll probably want to die
15:20:26 <cheater_> i was gonna watch requiem
15:20:28 <cheater_> but didn't
15:20:32 <kmc> you should
15:20:34 <kmc> it's a really good film
15:20:35 <cheater_> should i
15:20:38 <kmc> with good music
15:20:39 <kmc> yes
15:21:09 <itidus22> cheater_: what i have realized is that the problem i have centers around the whole idea of reflecting on past information with new information
15:21:19 <itidus22> unnecessarily
15:21:21 <cheater_> Requiem.For.A.Dream.2000.720p.BluRay.x264-SiNNERS.mkv
15:21:26 <itidus22> when the past information is just fine as it is
15:21:33 <cheater_> itidus22: no idea what you mean.
15:22:05 <itidus22> well.. like the focuses of an adult are different than those of a child
15:22:35 <itidus22> and.. after, lets say, spending too much time indoors and concentrating on certain ideas
15:22:52 <itidus22> then.. we have new perspectives with which to view our past
15:23:00 <itidus22> but if these new perspectives are garbage
15:23:26 <cheater_> are they
15:23:36 <itidus22> if they're depressing they are
15:23:38 <cheater_> i realized last year i don't hate buttermilk
15:23:43 <cheater_> i did as a kid having never tried any
15:23:58 <cheater_> because butter + milk = yech
15:24:01 <cheater_> the new perspective wasn't garbage
15:25:03 <itidus22> and lets say.. activites we once enjoyed which we think are silly now
15:25:09 <itidus22> why should they be silly?
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15:25:47 <itidus22> anyway, isolation probably isn't good
15:25:57 <itidus22> but isolation is hard to really escape
15:26:46 <itidus22> cheater_: hah.. heres the video i recommend for the protagonist of Pi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCnHWas3HQ
15:26:53 <itidus22> the words are very telling
15:27:00 <itidus22> and easy to ignore
15:27:20 <itidus22> imagine this song in the context of Pi
15:28:12 <cheater_> kmc: it starts with violins droning and tuning
15:28:15 <cheater_> totally hipster film
15:28:30 <cheater_> i'll make a tshirt with a screencap
15:28:35 <cheater_> it'll get me the ladies
15:29:08 <itidus22> i always thought this song was just an old-person song
15:33:06 <itidus22> "When you've got worries all the noise and the hurry seems to help, I know."
15:33:21 <itidus22> "Just listen to the music of the traffic in the city."
15:34:26 <cheater_> yeah it's actually a good idea, from a psychiatric point of view
15:34:31 <cheater_> kmc is it ok to be having three stakes
15:34:34 <cheater_> steaks
15:34:35 <cheater_> a day
15:34:39 <kmc> maybe
15:34:47 <cheater_> i'm gonna cook these two cuts with szechuan pepper
15:34:50 <cheater_> and some german spice
15:35:04 <kmc> interesting
15:35:11 <kmc> i don't know if szechuan pepper would go with steak
15:36:08 <kmc> my favorite dish at the local szechuan restaurant is called "spicy beef with cumin"
15:36:14 <kmc> i don't know how to describe its properties exactly
15:36:37 <kmc> the beef is fried in delicious batter or something
15:36:47 <kmc> and it's super spicy and szechuan-peppery
15:37:21 <kmc> i think it's fairy different from the spicy hunan beef with cumin that i find easily by google
15:37:27 <kmc> cheater_: do you know how to make good currywurst sauce
15:37:41 <kmc> i'm guessing that heinz ketchup + curry powder is not ideal
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15:47:25 <cheater_> no
15:47:32 <cheater_> you need a specific very cheap ketchup
15:47:40 <cheater_> with a lot of starch
15:47:51 <cheater_> er
15:47:53 <cheater_> no wrong
15:48:01 <cheater_> but it's fairly watery and somewhat jelly like
15:48:02 <cheater_> it's sweet
15:49:20 <cheater_> but as you know i am offended by the idea of currywurst
15:49:58 <cheater_> also, tip for authenticity
15:50:11 <cheater_> all currywurst stands have a special currywurst cutter
15:50:17 <cheater_> it's a machine where you enter the currywurst at the top
15:50:44 <cheater_> and it slices it into slices of random 1-2 cm thickness
15:51:05 <cheater_> that is put on a rectangular paper tray
15:51:09 <cheater_> then ketchup on top
15:51:16 <cheater_> and then curry powder at your own leisure
15:51:45 <AnotherTest> and of course make sure those machines are Turing complete(well, unfortunately that's not possible unless we're talking virtual curryworst)
15:51:56 <cheater_> wurst
15:52:14 <AnotherTest> wurst, indeed
15:52:35 <kmc> wurst is better
15:52:45 <kmc> i've been cutting with knife
15:53:04 <kmc> your description of the ketchup sounds like standard cheap american ketchup
15:53:09 <kmc> except for jelly-like
15:53:10 <cheater_> kmc: so this spice i just used, called bockhornkleesaat, seems to be relatively unknown
15:53:24 <cheater_> nah the jelly like is just pedantism on my side, disregard
15:53:26 <cheater_> it's very watery
15:53:38 <cheater_> in germany currywurst is the food of the lowest classes
15:53:55 <itidus22> cheater_: well like salmon swimming against the current, it's easy to forget that relaxing with a bit of sport and a beer can be good for you
15:54:03 <kmc> cheater_: it's related to fenugreek?
15:54:09 <cheater_> it is fenugreek
15:54:10 <kmc> the bockhornkleesaat
15:54:12 <kmc> ok
15:54:12 <cheater_> is it popular?
15:54:16 <kmc> i have heard of it
15:54:21 <cheater_> it's in every shop here
15:54:28 <cheater_> i have no idea what the hitlers use it for
15:54:36 <cheater_> it's one of those things you look at and have no idea
15:54:44 <cheater_> anyways it goes well with the szechuan pepper
15:54:48 <cheater_> since it's fairly alkaline too
15:54:51 <cheater_> and some rosemary
15:55:03 <kmc> is it fenugreek seeds or fenugreek leaves?
15:55:15 <cheater_> seed
15:55:20 <cheater_> well
15:55:26 <cheater_> ground
16:05:06 <cheater_> haha
16:05:19 <cheater_> i see two kids shlepping a tv across the city
16:05:21 <cheater_> i think
16:05:46 <cheater_> "i'll tell kmc i see two kids shlepping a tv across the city, and that they probably want to use it to make drugs"
16:05:51 <cheater_> then they start talking about making drugs
16:05:56 <cheater_> lolo
16:06:11 <kmc> yep
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16:07:41 <cheater> whoops
16:07:45 <cheater> not an emoquit
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16:52:20 <itidus22> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Narrative&diff=cur&oldid=488999882
17:01:56 <nortti> @ping
17:01:57 <lambdabot> pong
17:02:19 <cheater> @bacon
17:02:20 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:02:23 <cheater> :(
17:03:56 <nortti> Living witout X has been very easy. It is actually easier for me than living with X
17:03:56 <cheater> kmc: http://lh6.ggpht.com/-DIU4wNe0EpY/T6DHvL3l0lI/AAAAAAAAWps/utau6yOyKt0/02-Desktop3%25255B5%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800
17:04:13 <itidus22> what is alternative to X?
17:04:18 <cheater> eggs11
17:04:24 <cheater> eggsorg
17:04:35 <itidus22> or rather, what are you using in place of X?
17:04:39 <nortti> itidus22: framebuffer and console apps
17:04:51 <itidus22> framebuffer?
17:05:12 <nortti> itidus22: I am also trying to get ManaGeR to compile (it was designed for Linux 1.x)
17:05:29 <itidus22> what sort of thing is framebuffer?
17:05:37 <nortti> itidus22: linux framebbuffer, also known as fbdev
17:06:11 <itidus22> nortti: i recently ranted about how gui is bad
17:06:13 <itidus22> :D
17:06:29 <itidus22> maybe you are living the truth
17:06:40 <kmc> what is ManaGeR
17:06:57 <nortti> itidus22: it makes possible larger virtual consoles and with it I can use simple graphics in virtual consoles (I use links2 and mplayer with framebuffer)
17:07:46 <nortti> kmc: very old GUI combining Graphics server, WM and terminal emulator in sama package
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17:08:03 <itidus22> nortti: the main point of my rant was that windows are not as useful as they propose to be
17:08:19 <nortti> itidus22: where can I read your rant?
17:08:33 <itidus22> uhh.. it was short... and i didnt complete it but i will find it
17:08:33 <cheater> itt: http://conal.net/blog/posts/tangible-functional-programming-a-modern-marriage-of-usability-and-composability
17:08:52 <itidus22> humm.. just need to remember what words i used :D
17:09:27 <itidus22> `log [i]tidus multi tasking
17:10:00 <HackEgo> No output.
17:10:04 <itidus22> `log [i]tidus multi tasking
17:10:18 <HackEgo> No output.
17:10:24 <itidus22> `log [i]tidus multi
17:10:26 <nortti> `log [i]tidus multitasking
17:10:39 <HackEgo> No output.
17:10:40 <HackEgo> No output.
17:10:55 <itidus22> theres probably a good explanation for this.. but i will just find it
17:12:16 <itidus22> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-05-09#155943itidus21
17:12:34 <itidus22> in any case for a few pages i ramble about some of these things
17:13:48 <itidus22> so, i didn't fully flesh out my ideas.
17:14:12 <itidus22> but yeah, the gui systems were rushed to market without any real thought
17:15:12 <itidus22> honestly there is no good reason for why you even need multiple windows.
17:16:13 <itidus22> so what we see is that browsers adopt the purely tabbed model... this is how operating systems should really have been
17:16:32 <nortti> itidus22: do you mean multiple windows as in many windows on screen at the same time or multiple output buffers
17:16:59 <itidus22> many windows on screen... it's just pointless
17:17:22 <itidus22> i know i would feel lost without it. and i would feel greatly deprived of something
17:17:27 <itidus22> but...
17:18:54 <kmc> i like to have two terminals next to each other
17:18:59 <kmc> each occupying half the screen
17:19:13 <kmc> i could do this with screen or emacs instead of X, but that's pretty arbitrary
17:19:15 <itidus22> maybe fixed window shapes is a good idea
17:19:21 <kmc> i also like to have a browser next to a terminal
17:19:26 <nortti> itidus22: I thought the same way before I removed X. Now I see no reason to have more than 2 windows on screen at a time
17:19:43 <itidus22> 2 windows = like a codex :D
17:19:47 <kmc> overlapping windows are almost useless though
17:20:11 <kmc> i mainly use them when i don't want to fight with xmonad's primitive and clunky notion of layout
17:20:19 <itidus22> i am on windows xp though
17:20:36 <itidus22> so overlapping windows is thrusted down upon me
17:21:04 <itidus22> and, perhaps as a sign of my latent intelligence i have dared to question it
17:21:12 <nortti> itidus22: I tend to use two viewports and swapping windows in and out using gnu screen. I honestly don't see why would anyone need more than two tiled windows
17:21:28 <kmc> nortti: depends how big your monitor is
17:21:35 <itidus22> nortti: it seems that 2 windows is like when you fold open a book.
17:21:40 <itidus22> the left page and right page
17:21:47 <kmc> i had a widescreen monitor that would fit three 80-column terminals side by side
17:21:50 <kmc> that is useful
17:22:57 <itidus22> so perhaps 1 window is "not enough"
17:23:10 <itidus22> and on a widescreen.. 1 window would feel a bit silly
17:23:14 <itidus22> its begging for 2
17:24:39 <kmc> i think a nice setup is two widescreen monitors, one landscape and one portrait
17:25:21 <itidus22> i don't mind if an application has subwindows etc
17:25:37 <itidus22> but theres no reason for the top level to have subwindows
17:25:54 <kmc> you might want to see two applications at once?
17:26:09 <kmc> web browser for docs + terminal for code editor
17:26:10 <itidus22> like it's great for something like photoshop or flash to have lots of little windows
17:27:16 <itidus22> i just remember that when i was using dos.. i never thought "geez i wish i had multiple apps at one time
17:28:03 <itidus22> but i admit that theres good reasons for things
17:28:14 <qfr> https://images.4chan.org/mu/src/1336752176872.png pic related
17:29:14 <kmc> qfr++
17:29:24 <kmc> itt: real hackers
17:31:30 * itidus22 hides powerdrills from the real nef
17:34:27 <itidus22> oh no.. i am sort of nef
17:35:14 <itidus22> but he has a gf and a laptop
17:36:50 <kmc> nef uses shubshub caps
17:40:48 <itidus22> i can't quite put a finger on it but i would like to see a form of programming which is [stops to think] ahh humm
17:41:34 <itidus22> what would be the most extreme form of compiler/interpreter writing? perhaps if you wrote the compiler/interpreter only and the computer generated code?
17:41:42 <itidus22> ^source code
17:41:42 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:42:09 <itidus22> oh
17:42:18 <quintopia> itidus22: the most extreme form is to BUILD IT OUT OF K'NEX PIECES
17:42:29 <itidus22> i thought fungot was a human for a moment there
17:42:29 <fungot> itidus22: should be!... ' ed? riastradh, don't have the time
17:43:08 <itidus22> the word extreme was not illustrative on my part
17:43:54 <itidus22> but, if writing source code is about following rules then writing compilers/interpreters is about creating rules
17:44:29 <itidus22> but you always need one to create the other eh
17:45:42 <itidus22> so what do i have in mind?
17:45:59 <itidus22> the BASIC of compiler compilers
17:46:35 <itidus22> lets have 10 year olds writing compilers day in day out
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17:46:50 <itidus22> and stop pretending it's so hard to do
17:46:51 <kmc> yeah what the world needs is more programming languages designed by ignorant amateurs
17:46:57 <itidus22> exactly
17:47:00 <itidus22> not just a few
17:47:04 <itidus22> millions
17:47:09 <kmc> after all designing a programming language is just a matter of picking symbols that look nice
17:47:50 <kmc> srsly though it is cool to show people that compilers aren't magic, here's how they work
17:48:01 <kmc> but your compiler construction kit may or may not demonstrate that
17:48:13 <itidus22> the problem with my nef project is
17:48:35 <itidus22> that simply having a compiler is not much use on it's own
17:49:28 <itidus22> theres no real reason for kids to even want their own compilers
17:50:06 <itidus22> since their languages will be trashy like a good 30 line BASIC program
17:53:04 <itidus22> i am calling it nef because it is the nef side of me which would propose such a thing even though i am ignorant on so many related fields
17:54:27 <itidus22> i really have this whole contempt for compilers
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18:02:39 <itidus22> the poet in me can explain the issue
18:03:51 <itidus22> from an ocean beach looking at the horizon, the wise man realizes he cannot swim as far as the horizon extends
18:05:20 <augur> ion: its called an intrusive r
18:05:22 <itidus22> but the fool is thinking, whether 50 yards or to the extent of the horizon swimming is swimming.
18:05:57 <augur> ion: many british english dialects are "non-rhotic" which means that final r's, especially after an "uh" like sound, are not pronounced
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18:06:45 <augur> as a consequence, it's not uncommon for some of those dialects to over-analyze words ending in "uh" as actually being words that end in r, which has been deleted because of that deletion rule
18:06:45 <itidus22> i don't quite know what i am describing... another way to say it is that, it is not until one has learned to drive that one can appreciate the skills of a master of driving
18:07:26 <augur> ion: but, when this final r is between words, it can emerge because it's not strictly final, at least not over the whole utterance
18:07:33 <itidus22> uh.. it is not until one has learned to make and place a brick, that one realizes he cannot build the tower of babel
18:07:35 <augur> sort of like liaison in french
18:09:21 <itidus22> like everyone who has done their 10,000 hours in some field probably has a good instinctive intuitive feel of what is truely challenging and what is not
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18:12:46 <itidus22> ahh.. like for the author.. the joy of "i wrote a novel" versus the ideal of "i solved novel writing mathematically"
18:16:15 <nortti> itidus22: actually I have two windows which are up and down windows. not leaft and right
18:17:31 <itidus22> i think this is my main confusion in lambda calculus.. looking for some magical summary of what LC can do beyond it's stated rules
18:18:45 <itidus22> like uh.. with arithmetic there are instances of numbers around me everyday
18:19:07 <itidus22> which gives me a fair idea of how big the numbers are i can expect to worry about day to day
18:19:21 <nortti> itidus22: my setup if following: tty1:links, tty2:irssi, tty3:gnu screen, tty4:hammer and sicle, uptime, free, who and df
18:20:02 <itidus22> but with LC.. there is no exhibits
18:21:19 <kmc> what it can do is all computations
18:21:58 <itidus22> so.. like.. you see.. should i think of computations as in the kind of apps i have on my pc?
18:22:30 <itidus22> kind of like.. uh.. astronomy we tend to focus on local solar system
18:25:58 <itidus22> i should let it go
18:30:49 <kmc> kind of amazed this works: http://i.imgur.com/6QpIO.png
18:49:57 <cheater> you know what i like best about them paddy chicks kmc
18:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> aewf
18:49:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 19 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:55:12 <cheater> jesus christ kmc
18:55:18 <cheater> i'm finishing this movie
18:55:33 <cheater> but it's another 20 minutes and i don't know if i can make it
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18:58:35 <Taneb> Hello!
19:00:21 <ais523> hi
19:00:21 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:00:31 <Taneb> I've just been to THE THEATRE
19:00:36 <Taneb> *not quite the theatre
19:01:11 <Taneb> *actually AS level drama exam
19:01:11 <AnotherTest> according to the dictionary to compile: "to translate (a computer program) from a high-level language into another language, usually machine language, using a compiler. "
19:01:14 <AnotherTest> uh
19:01:17 <ais523> @tell elliott because it's "genetic BSD", as in based on the codebase, and that codebase has already been cleared by a court case settlement with the original authors of UNIX
19:01:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:07:34 <Taneb> I saw Clockwork Orange, Trojan Women, and Abagail's Party
19:08:56 <cheater> ok
19:08:57 <cheater> kmc
19:09:03 <cheater> i have finished the movie
19:09:11 <cheater> there was no redeeming value in it for me
19:10:25 <cheater> i think perhaps it would be a shocker and eye opener for a typical ivy league student who has been sheltered all its life
19:11:04 <cheater> this way i see how it could be of value to someone else
19:11:09 <cheater> but like
19:11:50 <cheater> it was a fairly pointless use of time and emotional wear for me
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19:13:28 <nortti> ais523: what is "genetic BSD"?
19:14:13 <ais523> nortti: "genetic UNIX" refers to something that's UNIX-like because it's actually based on the codebase of the original UNIX, indirectly, rather than attempting to copy it like Linux
19:14:27 <ais523> original-UNIX has been continually deformed into OS X
19:17:22 <nortti> ais523: for example is v7/x86 "genetic UNIX"?
19:17:41 <ais523> nortti: anything that contains code from original UNIX
19:17:55 <ais523> pretty much all Unix-likes are apart from Linux
19:18:32 <pikhq> Well, there is Minix.
19:18:35 <nortti> ais523: even BSDs even thought they don't contain original unix surce?
19:18:51 <ais523> nortti: what makes you think they don't contain original unix source?
19:18:58 <ais523> BSD wasn't rewritten from scratch, it was a fork
19:20:03 <nortti> ais523: because they couldn't have released it under BSD license if it still had original unix source code (see 4.2BSD Net/2)
19:20:23 <ais523> nortti: there was a court settlement
19:20:39 <ais523> which confirmed that the licensing was OK
19:21:59 <pikhq> Novell bought the rights, and then settled.
19:22:19 <nortti> ais523: so it confirmed they didn't have code that was property of USL. There were five files that couldn't be released under BSD license but those were written from scratch on other BSD forks
19:22:34 <ais523> hmm, we seem to have different memories of UNIX history
19:22:36 <pikhq> The settlement leaked in 2004: basically, BSD was in the clear if they rewrote a small handful of bits that they didn't already rewrite.
19:22:58 <pikhq> nortti: The other bits simply *happened* to have already been rewritten from the fork.
19:23:19 <nortti> pikhq: that was called 4.4BSD-lite
19:23:35 <pikhq> Yes. Yes it was.
19:23:47 <nortti> pikhq: Net/2 lacked those five files that were needed
19:24:39 <nortti> pikhq: those were written from scratch on 386BSD project
19:25:21 <pikhq> ... Yes...
19:25:46 <nortti> BSD is a fork of UNIX but open source versions no longer contain original UNIX source
19:26:08 <pikhq> And Linux no longer contains original v0.1 Linux source; your point? :)
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19:27:01 <nortti> pikhq: my point is that BSD contains no original UNIX source code which ais523 said it contained
19:27:13 <ais523> nortti: it contained it at the time it implemented the API, though
19:27:19 <ais523> and it still contains the same API
19:27:20 <pikhq> Still genetic UNIX.
19:28:28 <nortti> I didn't say it wasn't genetic unix, I just said it no longer contain original unix source
19:28:30 <quintopia> this sounds like a philosophical debate
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19:28:44 <nortti> quintopia: why
19:28:48 <Taneb> Hello!
19:28:54 <quintopia> "if you replace every plank on a ship one-by-one as they rot, then by the time you have replaced them all, is it the same ship?:
19:29:27 <nortti> quintopia: I'd say no
19:29:47 <Taneb> I'd say yes
19:29:48 <pikhq> nortti: Congrats, you are not the same person as the one called "nortti" two years ago.
19:30:04 <quintopia> nortti: i'd dissolve the question. identity is a silly man-made thing.
19:30:10 <pikhq> quintopia++
19:30:32 <nortti> pikhq: you are right. I am not
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19:31:15 <pikhq> Ballsy.
19:32:05 <quintopia> i agree with nortti. we are not the same people we were then. however, i think that is true regardless of the philosophical question
19:32:20 <zzo38> I know those philosophical things
19:33:55 <quintopia> fortunately, i believe, if anything, i have a higher informational content than i did two years ago. the things i've forgotten left compressed remnants of themselves that interact in strange ways with the things i remember
19:34:10 <quintopia> that and i probably weigh a bit more >.>
19:38:15 <kmc> shachaf: shachaf
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19:40:45 <zzo38> If all the iron atoms in some car are instantly switched with the equal amount of iron from something else, is it the same car?
19:40:57 <nortti> no
19:41:06 <Taneb> I'm going with yes
19:41:09 <AnotherTest> yes
19:41:22 <zzo38> I say the answer is no.
19:41:43 <kmc> arbitrary
19:41:45 <AnotherTest> (assuming they are also all in the same place, because you said switched)
19:41:59 <zzo38> And that modern physics seems to provide evidence for my opinion.
19:42:11 <quintopia> zzo38: physics says your question is meaningless
19:42:16 <AnotherTest> ^
19:42:23 <kmc> i like the theory that there's only one electron in the universe, it's bouncing back and forth between the beginning and end of time, and when it's going backwards it's a positron
19:42:36 <quintopia> feynman is one crazy guy eh?
19:43:07 <zzo38> quintopia: Newtonian physics may, but with such new thing as quantum entanglement and wavefunctions and uncertainty and all that stuff, we cannot say it is definitely the same thing.
19:43:09 <quintopia> but he really gets the point across that electrons are not only indistinguishable by anything except position/momentum
19:43:10 <Taneb> quintopia, feynman is every crazy guy. He's going back and forth in the universe, and when he's going backwards he's a vicar
19:43:29 <quintopia> but not really worth distinguishing in many cases
19:43:52 <quintopia> zzo38: quantum physics says your question is meaningless
19:44:09 <AnotherTest> ^
19:44:20 <quintopia> quantum physics says it doesn't make sense to talk about "switching particles with one another"
19:44:52 <AnotherTest> indeed, because you couldn't(you could never get their exact location)
19:45:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Exactly, it is what I mean by that the mathematics has no way to represent it is, therefore, their exact location doesn't have and if they are switched, you have to antisymmetry (or symmetry) to subtract the states to figure out the result which should be zero if in fact they are the same, but even in that case, uncertainty and entanglement is possible.
19:46:39 <AnotherTest> so you're saying that the car would fall apart?
19:47:09 <AnotherTest> but it might exist for a very short timespan
19:47:11 <quintopia> zzo38: do you understand what "entanglement" is? do you understand where exactly the uncertainty arises?
19:47:14 <zzo38> No! But I am also saying that you cannot consider space/time like this. It is all relative and space and time are together rather than separate, too.
19:47:43 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes I know how to write down the state vectors for an entangled state and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and those things to some degree.
19:48:04 <zzo38> Well, it might fall apart; everything is possible.
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19:48:17 <quintopia> not everything
19:48:24 <quintopia> ftl communication is not
19:48:35 <AnotherTest> zzo38: with falling apart I mean falling apart in energy
19:48:44 <zzo38> That is not what I meant by what I have said
19:49:28 <AnotherTest> because if some atoms(or smaller particles) would be in an incorrect position, the whole thing would become unstable?
19:49:32 <AnotherTest> but I have to go
19:49:33 <AnotherTest> bye
19:49:34 <zzo38> AnotherTest: O, you mean in energy. Well, I have not calculated the amount of energy it has, and I only know the Newtonian energy anyways, which is different from this energy
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19:50:17 <zzo38> AnotherTest: But, yes, tat would be the case; however, that is not what I meant; when I said I meant they would switch exact (as far as it is meaningful) position
19:50:30 <nortti> how did we get to this from unix?
19:51:52 <pikhq> By way of philosophy.
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20:49:36 <cheater> kmc
20:49:43 <cheater> why did you subject me to that crappy movie
20:49:43 <kmc> cheater
20:49:49 <kmc> for spite
20:49:52 <cheater> it was like watching days go by
20:51:16 <cheater> no
20:51:16 <cheater> what was that tv series?
20:51:16 <cheater> life goes on
20:59:28 <cheater> sing with me kmc
20:59:32 <cheater> ob la di, ob la da
20:59:37 <cheater> life goes oooh-oon
21:04:52 <kmc> ♬♩♫♪
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21:07:55 <ais523> is the icon belonging to a window something that X tracks? or is it tracked at a different level (e.g. window manager or dbus)?
21:09:04 <quintopia> my guess is "no, yes"
21:09:10 <quintopia> :P
21:10:04 -!- Kray has joined.
21:11:41 <kmc> if you run xprop and click a Firefox window you'll see a nice big firefox icon in your terminal
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21:40:02 <ion> @tell augur Thanks for the explanation. :-)
21:40:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:46:35 <zzo38> Let's remove human from endangered species list; the population is too much
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22:02:20 <shachaf> kmc: keegan
22:02:46 <kmc> shachaf: http://i.imgur.com/6QpIO.png
22:03:12 <ion> :-D
22:04:10 <shachaf> kmc: I used to more or less be able to read Arabic. :-(
22:06:04 <shachaf> Oh, that's Haskell.
22:06:16 <shachaf> I saw fancy characters and immediately assumed it was Agda.
22:07:36 <kmc> haha
22:07:40 <ion> :-D
22:07:58 <kmc> i think the bidi algorithm is particularly bad for source code
22:08:02 <kmc> like that "n = n" is a LTR span
22:08:20 <kmc> if those were two different variable names, the argument would be the one further from the function name
22:09:07 <shachaf> Please don't write code in RTL languages. :-(
22:09:11 <ion> There probably should be just short RTL spans for single words.
22:09:23 <shachaf> kmc: What were you doing in Boston?
22:09:23 <ion> and longer ones for strings and comments, i suppose
22:09:50 <shachaf> I don't actually have a good intuitive model of the standard bidi algorithm.
22:09:50 <pikhq_> I guess you'd want a syntactically aware text editor for handling RTL code.
22:09:58 <ion> Except that using non-English languages in code is evil, so there should be electric shocks for doing that.
22:10:11 <shachaf> I've had cases where I had a URL with LTR and RTL characters and I just *couldn't* put my cursor where I wanted.
22:10:14 <shachaf> No matter what I tried.
22:10:22 <pikhq_> The bidi algorithm spans a single syntactic entity. e.g. a name, a single string, or a single comment.
22:10:29 <shachaf> The least painful solution ended up being deleting a large chunk of it and typing it from scratch.
22:10:51 <zzo38> One way is to require all program codes to be ASCII. It is also possible to write all URLs in ASCII, too.
22:11:35 <pikhq_> zzo38: Most code is written in straight ASCII, so hey.
22:11:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Another way is to kill anyone who speaks non-English languages.
22:12:00 <shachaf> zzo38: kmc's opinion of you is going to be about the same with either of those ways!
22:12:48 <zzo38> Well, text strings and comments would still be permitted to contain non-ASCII texts
22:14:16 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, you live in Boston.
22:14:29 * shachaf forgot about that.
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22:26:12 <nortti> `pastefortunes
22:26:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1507
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22:47:54 <nortti> `quote
22:47:56 <nortti> `quote
22:47:57 <nortti> `quote
22:47:58 <nortti> `quote
22:47:59 <nortti> `quote
22:48:05 <HackEgo> 753) <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
22:48:08 <HackEgo> 853) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
22:48:11 <HackEgo> 600) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
22:48:24 <HackEgo> 775) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
22:48:25 <HackEgo> 321) <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
22:58:03 <shachaf> nortti: You should delete 600.
22:59:15 <nortti> `delquote 600
22:59:17 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
22:59:33 <shachaf> thortti
23:02:59 <zzo38> Can you play E Card?
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23:08:55 <monqy> no
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23:26:14 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I find out whether I can play E Card?
23:26:45 <zzo38> shachaf: I can tell you how it is played.
23:28:36 <zzo38> The game is played by two players, the owner and challenger.
23:30:11 <zzo38> There are three kind of cards: Emperor, Citizen, and Slave. Emperor beats Citizen, Citizen beats Slave, and Slave beats Emperor. (If you prefer, you can use Pokemon cards: leaf energy card beats water energy card, water energy card beats fire energy card, and fire energy card beats leaf energy card.)
23:31:58 <zzo38> At first, owner has four Citizen and one Slave, and challenger has four Citizen and one Emperor. Three rounds are played this way, and then it is switch so that challenger has Slave instead, again for three rounds. And then this is repeated three time both ways for a total of twelve rounds.
23:33:08 <zzo38> The player with the Emperor card plays a card face-down, and then the player with Slave plays a card face-down. If both are Citizens, then they are discarded and the player holding the Slave card plays first this time. It alternates until one player wins or loses.
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23:34:59 <zzo38> It is not permitted to just select a card at random; you are required to decide which card to play (I am unsure how they can enforce this rule). In addition, both players have a five minute time limit to select a card.
23:36:01 <zzo38> Before the game starts, a drill is screwed onto one of the challenger's ears, 3 cm from the eardrum.
23:39:01 <zzo38> Before each round, the challenger makes a bet in millimetres. After the cards are played, if the challenger loses then the drill is moved that distance (the eardrum is destroyed if the distance between it and the drill is reduced to zero). If the challenger wins while playing the Emperor's side, he wins 100000 yen per mm bet. If the challenger wins with the Slave's side, he wins 500000 yen per mm bet.
23:39:40 <zzo38> At the end, the drill is removed and he gets to keep the money, regardless of whether or not his ear has been destroyed.
23:40:00 <zzo38> These are the rules. OK?????
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23:44:50 <augur> ion: np
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