←2012-05-11 2012-05-12 2012-05-13→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:34:29 <Gregor> Wow, Portal 2 single player.
00:34:31 <Gregor> So. Amazing.
00:34:52 <Gregor> (Multi-player is pretty great too, but everybody fawned over multi-player, and I didn't see too many people praising the single-player game)
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01:10:32 <quintopia> i only ever played multi
01:10:35 <quintopia> :/
01:19:00 <zzo38> Do you understand E Card now?
01:21:45 <Sgeo> Gregor, did you play Portal?
01:22:31 <Gregor> Naturally.
01:22:47 <Gregor> Portal was brilliant, but somewhat lacking in plot (which was fine, since the gameplay was fantastic).
01:23:08 <Gregor> Portal 2 not only improved the gameplay, but had a plot that was spectacular, detailed, and very involving.
01:23:32 <Gregor> And that's to say nothing of coöp mode, which I'm still playing with a friend.
01:23:43 <Sgeo> Gregor, does co-op work across PC/XBox?
01:23:55 <Sgeo> iirc it does but want to double-check quickly
01:23:58 <Gregor> Donno, my friend and I both have it on Steam (PC)
01:27:53 <coppro> Gregor: did you enjoy the part where he kills you?
01:28:50 <Gregor> coppro: OMG DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST
01:29:51 -!- coppro has set topic: spoilers | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
01:30:23 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, you should definitely play the single-player game.
01:30:38 <quintopia> i NEVER HAVE THE TIME
01:30:38 <Gregor> quintopia: Even if /just/ for the plot, although the puzzles are (naturally) great too.
01:31:01 <Gregor> That was either unnecessarily angry or mis-caplocked X-D
01:31:35 <quintopia> no
01:31:37 <quintopia> it eas
01:31:56 * Gregor nods sagely.
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01:32:00 <coppro> win 24
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01:32:35 <zzo38> lose 24.5
01:32:43 <Gregor> tie 24.25
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01:51:43 <zzo38> pathfinder _ g h | g == h = return h; pathfinder s g h = WriterT ((\x -> (x, [x])) <$> (s !! h)) >>= pathfinder s g;
01:58:39 <pikhq> "Cephalic ganglion": best name for the brain?
01:59:19 <coppro> obv
02:01:10 <zzo38> I am trying to invent WizardCard and I wrote some of the codes already
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02:54:07 <Sgeo> <3 Continuity
02:54:11 <Sgeo> http://continuitygame.com/playcontinuity.html
02:59:52 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq, can the brain even be classified as a ganglion?
03:00:47 <cheater> kmc
03:00:56 <zzo38> Which rules of Magic: the Gathering cards do you dislike?
03:04:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I dislike the rule where it has magic.
03:04:23 <shachaf> Shun magic, and shun the appearance of magic!
03:04:27 <shachaf> Shun everything, and then shun shunning!
03:04:29 <zzo38> shachaf: As far as I know it has no such rule.
03:04:36 <shachaf> Oh.
03:04:40 <shachaf> Which rules does it have, then?
03:04:52 <shachaf> Is there a rules where it has gathering? E.g. of the card
03:04:53 <shachaf> s
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03:12:02 <zzo38> It look good to me and I hope I did it correctly: expandPat t = option t (get >>= lift . map (first $ checkPatternMatch [t]) . getBlocks (transEnum KW_macro) >>== \(x, y) -> head . M.foldrWithKey substitute [y] <$> x);
03:12:49 <tilsoun> What's a minimal language that operates on a tape (i.e., jumping to an arbitrary address is assumed to be expensive)?
03:13:27 <zzo38> tilsoun: Do you mean the program or the data?
03:13:33 <tilsoun> Both.
03:14:35 <zzo38> I don't know of one that has both. Perhaps invent one on esolang wiki, or put it in the list of ideas.
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03:30:14 <cheater> Sgeo: A+++++++ would play another 1000 levels
03:47:34 <zzo38> I am trying to think of how to represent some things in WizardCard and other thing about implementation too
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05:28:17 <quintopia> almost done with continuity
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07:22:24 <Taneb> Hello
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07:30:13 <shachaf> Haneb
07:31:01 <Sgeo> BLASPHEMY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dSNAkNdvmg
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07:55:29 <Taneb> Hello, Phantom_Hoover
07:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh no, it's Taneb!
07:55:42 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night
07:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> where i left my laptop in the bath
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08:16:15 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, have you heard the blasphemy?
08:16:25 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh no what
08:17:58 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dSNAkNdvmg
08:18:05 <Taneb> ^^^ that blashphemy
08:18:35 <Taneb> Sho blashphemic it turnsh me into Shean Connery
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08:24:43 <itidus20> `pastelogs dream
08:25:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17369
08:27:45 <itidus20> 2007-06-23.txt:08:24:55: <oklopol> Heh, last night me and a friend decided to walk 40 km... started at midnight... by the end of the trip I was actually having short dreams while walking :DD
08:31:53 <Phantom__Hoover> Can I presume that elliott was not pleased.
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08:47:27 <ion> The China Export symbol looks similar completely by accident, i’m sure. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/CE_marks.jpg
08:47:30 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: That seems to be a safe assumption in any and all circumstances.
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08:54:09 <Taneb> Hello
08:56:04 <ion> o hai
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10:00:21 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: Yes, the brain is in fact a ganglion. Just with a lot of natural selection applied to it.
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10:38:48 <cheater_> kmc: i am about this upset with your recent movie suggestion: this upset: http://inside-logger.com/img/upset_kid.jpg
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11:01:55 <nortti> http://qdb.us/28319
11:12:21 <Sgeo> o.O
11:14:05 <nortti> what?
11:17:21 <cheater_> Sgeo: have you finished continuity?
11:17:32 <cheater_> i'm on the last level, but haven't given it a real effort yet
11:20:56 <Sgeo> cheater_, haven't gotten there yet
11:24:14 <cheater_> oh
11:24:33 <cheater_> i'm talking about the web version btw
11:24:38 <cheater_> are you playing the ipad version already?
11:24:43 <cheater_> the web version was fairly simple
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11:33:29 <nortti> aw shit. I lost all of my work on c2bf.
11:34:30 <nortti> also my own pkgmgr seems to be missing from backups
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11:59:13 <Taneb> Hello!
12:00:19 <cheater_> wow ok the last level is fairly tough
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12:07:49 <cheater_> @tell kmc upset
12:07:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:25:48 <nortti> does anyone know can I make my libc for c2bf available under wtfpl if I include it in c2bf which is under GPL?
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12:30:40 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a mind-map software?
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12:47:08 <sebbu> nortti, double licence ?
12:47:30 <sebbu> GPL is more restrictive than WTFPL
12:49:12 <nortti> sebbu: I am trying to make c2bf usable so I am adding libc but I'd like to keep it under WTFPL
12:54:33 <Gregor> C2BF is a C compiler. It does not impose a license on the code it compiles, just like any other C compiler.
12:54:39 <Gregor> GCC is under GPL, for example.
12:55:35 <nortti> Gregor: I am including my libc in my fork of c2bf
12:56:03 <Gregor> So? My distro includes both GCC and glibc.
12:56:25 <Gregor> (Or eglibc, as it were)
12:57:37 <nortti> Gregor: so I can make my c2bf fork contain both GPL and WTFPL licensed code?
12:59:35 <Gregor> A) Of course, B) yes, even if they actually linked together (although then the aggregate /binary/ would have to be released under GPL, which has implications on the source), C) since they DON'T link together, there isn't even an argument, the two licenses have absolutely no bearing on each other. You could have something GPL-incompatible and it would still make no difference.
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13:56:44 <nortti> http://www.elisanet.fi/~g623951/c2bf-j-0.01.patch
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14:46:26 <elliott> Deewiant: Ping
14:46:29 <Deewiant> Pong
14:47:06 <elliott> Deewiant: What case is the WINDOWS directory in recent Windowses.
14:47:08 <Taneb> This gives me a stupid idea
14:47:12 <elliott> i.e. C:\windows, C:\Windows or C:\WINDOWS
14:47:15 <Deewiant> Windows
14:47:20 <elliott> Thanks.
14:47:24 <Taneb> Server table tennis
14:47:47 <Taneb> Configure servers to append a ping message to all pong messages to a particular server
14:48:26 <Taneb> First server to drop it, the other one gets a point
14:57:14 <Gregor> nortti: I would recommend you properly fork, and link your fork from the esolangs page.
14:57:56 <nortti> Gregor: ok
15:01:56 <elliott> Gregor: Be careful.
15:02:05 <elliott> gcc specifically has an exception to GPL to avoid infecting code it compiles, IIRC.
15:05:54 <kmc> because gcc has library code it links into the output binary?
15:05:54 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:06:05 <kmc> @messages
15:06:05 <lambdabot> cheater_ said 2h 58m 14s ago: upset
15:15:42 <kmc> cheater_: :(
15:22:09 <Gregor> <elliott> gcc specifically has an exception to GPL to avoid infecting code it compiles, IIRC. // yeah, that's for libgcc
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15:22:48 <kmc> it's not clear where the line is drawn though
15:23:09 <elliott> Gregor: You could just relicense C2BF as not-GPL :P
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15:24:04 <nortti> libgcc?
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15:24:29 <nortti> oh. never mind
15:25:23 <kmc> libgcc is a library gcc links into the binaries it produces
15:26:01 <Gregor> nortti: I hereby license all of my code in C2BF under ISC. Feel free to change the headers at your leisure. I think I used a published Yacc grammar for C in there somewhere, so be wary of its license if it's under any.
15:26:21 <Gregor> (ISC is this license: http://opensource.org/licenses/ISC )
15:29:19 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, has nobody else contributed to C2BF?
15:29:21 <elliott> pikhq, perhaps?
15:29:29 * elliott aims to make your life difficult.
15:29:35 <elliott> Or, well, nortti's.
15:30:00 <nortti> Gregor: isn't ISC basically WTFPL with warranty clause?
15:30:38 <elliott> And more legally airtight wording...
15:30:48 <elliott> Actually that's not true.
15:30:56 <elliott> ISC requires reproduction of the license/copyright notice.
15:31:12 <elliott> ISC is basically BSD2/MIT.
15:32:04 <Taneb> The Gedcom standard is so dense
15:32:25 <nortti> Gregor: do you have commit history to c2bf?
15:33:52 <elliott> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF.
15:35:36 <nortti> elliott: what about it?
15:35:49 <elliott> ...It has a link to the SVN repository right there...
15:36:19 <nortti> elliott: and...?
15:36:30 <elliott> nortti: ...SVN repositories give you the entire commit history?
15:45:10 <elliott> E\/TREME E\/PLOSIONS
15:45:10 <elliott> /\ /\
15:45:16 <elliott> Explosions. Bexplosions.
15:45:21 <elliott> Texplosions. Sexplosions. Wait.
15:49:41 <Gregor> <nortti> Gregor: do you have commit history to c2bf? // there are tools to get the commit history out of a svn repo. The name "svnsync" comes to mind.
15:50:13 <kmc> svn :/
15:50:22 <Lumpio-> Is a texplosion something like
15:50:25 <Lumpio-> \kaboom
15:50:26 <elliott> Gregor: git-svn works well for that.
15:50:41 <Lumpio-> \explosion{bang}
15:50:57 <elliott> Lumpio-: Yes.
15:53:50 <kmc> shachaf: it seems GCC 4.4 is the culprit in my fstack-protector slowdown
15:53:58 <kmc> redid the benchmarks with 4.6 and it's more what i expected
15:55:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: SPOILER ALERT: He dies in the end | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
15:57:00 <elliott> I, too, die in the end.
15:57:19 <Gregor> It's what makes the story so relatable.
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16:01:04 <elliott> What is THE ALAN DIPERT doing on /r/programming?
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16:04:07 <Taneb> Hello!
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16:05:37 <elliott> hello
16:11:17 <Taneb> elliott, is it dwarf fortress time?
16:11:26 <elliott> I don't know. Is it Dwarf Fortress time?
16:12:39 <Taneb> Is it a time such that, if I stream myself playing Dwarf Fortress, you will watch?
16:12:47 <elliott> Sure.
16:14:13 <kmc> kinky
16:15:05 <cheater_> kmc
16:15:08 <cheater_> have u seen my url?
16:15:13 <cheater_> :D
16:15:16 <kmc> no
16:16:03 <cheater_> <cheater_> kmc: i am about this upset with your recent movie suggestion: this upset: http://inside-logger.com/img/upset_kid.jpg
16:16:58 <kmc> i see
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16:17:35 <rszeno> hello everybody
16:17:39 <elliott> hi
16:17:54 <elliott> Taneb: You realise you're not termcasting, right?
16:18:00 <Taneb> I'm not!
16:18:03 <Taneb> !?
16:18:20 <cheater_> kmc: hey, you should know
16:18:32 <rszeno> hi, elliot
16:18:44 <cheater_> kmc: when making a steak with "steak pepper" (a mixture of salt, pepper, paprika, mustard seeds, etc)
16:18:59 <cheater_> do i put this spice mix on the steak before putting it in the frying pan?
16:19:02 <cheater_> or after it's ready?
16:19:11 <elliott> :(
16:19:58 <Taneb> How about now?
16:20:16 <kmc> cheater_: i'd put it on before, and maybe rub it in a bit
16:20:28 <kmc> but idk
16:21:41 <cheater_> that's what i did
16:21:48 <cheater_> we'll see in a couple of minutes if it worked
16:22:23 <Taneb> I... I may have got my ratry login wrong?
16:22:35 <elliott> Taneb: Just pick a new username.
16:22:36 <elliott> It's what I do.
16:22:48 <elliott> Taneb: (This is why you store the ratry_login stuff in a file.)
16:23:45 <Taneb> elliott, got corrupted
16:23:53 <elliott> What.
16:24:04 <Taneb> In the mess I had over the past two days
16:24:53 <elliott> Okay.
16:28:30 <cheater_> kmc: i'm not upset anymore though
16:28:49 <cheater_> except this morning when i woke up dreaming someone electrocuted me and the flesh was falling off my legs
16:29:02 <cheater_> that's ok though
16:29:06 <cheater_> <3
16:29:30 <Taneb> elliott, now!
16:29:44 <elliott> You should play Adventurer.
16:29:46 <elliott> It's... "fun".
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16:34:03 <cheater_> i think the words "seared clump, bloody cold inside" describe this steak quite well
16:34:07 <cheater_> i hope i can still save it
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16:36:04 <Taneb> Any suggestions for fortress names?
16:37:40 <cheater_> sgc
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16:38:15 <cheater_> this thing came out quite good actually
16:38:52 <elliott> Taneb: Fortressfortress.
16:38:54 <elliott> Dwarffortres.
16:38:56 <elliott> *ss
16:39:15 <cheater_> DwarfDwarfFortressFortressFactoryFactory
16:39:22 <itidus22> Fortress of Solidity (not really... this is like a nightmarish name)
16:40:03 <cheater_> frigidity, then?
16:40:10 <itidus22> no ~ity
16:41:20 <cheater_> Frigid Fortress
16:42:01 <cheater_> kmc is bull's eye hickory smoke bbq squce a known brand in the us?
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16:45:12 <Gregor> cheater_: If I recall, Bull's Eye is one of those brands you can find in every grocery store. It's probably a subsidiary of Kraft or something.
16:46:09 <cheater_> yes http://www.kraftbrands.com/bullseyebbq/
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16:53:54 <elliott> Taneb: Oops, I forgot to raise the uxterm window.
16:54:00 <elliott> I missed the last, like, half an hour.
16:54:17 <Taneb> Nothing interesting happened
16:58:38 <itidus20> i was thinking of fortress craft when i made my suggestions.. because, just because
16:59:05 <itidus20> i havent ever owned a ~craft though
16:59:56 <Taneb> Minecraft for PC and XBox 360 + Fortress Craft here
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17:22:13 <Taneb> Not sure what happened there...
17:25:26 <elliott> did df crash or something
17:28:06 <Taneb> I think I lost internet and df crashed
17:28:08 <Taneb> AT THE SAME TIME
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17:29:08 <elliott> monqy: crawl people are so wrong about hunger
17:29:21 <monqy> what are they saying
17:29:39 <monqy> "good thing monqys-crawl is right"
17:29:52 <elliott> monqy: mostly defending hunger in any shape or form
17:30:10 <elliott> while at the same time asking for nausea to be removed on the grounds that it's tedious and unimportant
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17:30:40 <monqy> ha-ha-ha
17:30:59 <elliott> monqy: apparently you need hunger because it minorly inconveniences berserkers
17:31:19 <elliott> (also for conjurers and summoners but "i don't know anything about them" so i can't comment)
17:32:16 <monqy> spells hunger you; bigger spell level means more hunger, and having spc/int means less hunger
17:32:37 <elliott> right
17:32:37 <monqy> so at low skill/int the hunger serves to prevent you from spamming big spells
17:32:41 <elliott> so you could just
17:32:45 <elliott> not regen mp naturally instead
17:32:51 <elliott> and use mp for that
17:32:52 <monqy> right
17:32:57 <zzo38> Reduce permanent food
17:33:04 <elliott> and for berserkers
17:33:06 <elliott> make exhaustion last longer
17:33:16 <elliott> or just
17:33:20 <elliott> make it not wear off unless you $do_something
17:33:23 <elliott> but
17:33:35 <elliott> frankly the only times i've been unable to berserk because of hunger is when i get out of a tight situation and immediately into another
17:33:38 <elliott> so
17:33:46 <elliott> making exhaustion last longer would fulfil that fine
17:33:49 <monqy> i'd go more for the latter since lasting longer means like pillar dancing it off or something
17:33:51 <elliott> admittedly it's susceptible to just pressing 5 a lot
17:33:54 <elliott> "nerf 5"
17:33:55 <monqy> yes
17:34:00 <zzo38> In ADOM, spitting acid reduces your satiation level
17:34:06 <elliott> make kills reduce your exhaustion
17:34:08 <monqy> ideally in monqys-crawl you should never have to press 5
17:34:09 <elliott> because $rationale
17:34:28 <monqy> killing the rat invigourates you
17:35:06 <elliott> "invigourates", good british english
17:35:32 <zzo38> Why should kills reduce your exhaustion? I don't see how that makes a lot of sense; resting should reduce your exhaustion (perhaps make the area danger and stuff, so that there is a penalty to resting, now you have to figure out what balance is best per circumstances)
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17:36:25 <monqy> realism is less important than gameplay
17:36:55 <elliott> monqy: you could also make exhaustion last longer and just make you lose hp over time "because"
17:37:04 <monqy> hmmmmmmm
17:37:05 <elliott> and then because hp on kills is great "the problem is solved"
17:37:50 <monqy> consistency is also important though and monsters losing hp over time or only berking once is silly so i'd have to do something about that, like give the player a horrible disease to explain away the discrepency
17:37:57 <monqy> "you need the deep deep down orb of zot to cure your self"
17:38:13 <zzo38> monqy: Hence why I have said so, make area danger and stuff a penalty to resting
17:38:19 <elliott> "ur dyinge. but on your bucket list it says : - get the orb of zot because nobody ever got it."
17:38:31 <elliott> "also, yuou're a sociopath and you like to see things diye it gives you reson to live"
17:38:36 <elliott> "hav fun"
17:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> important question, will this perfect roguelike go the way of both of elliott's other perfect games
17:39:06 <elliott> wee're talking about monqy's roguelike
17:39:08 <elliott> or just
17:39:09 <elliott> roguelikes in general
17:39:12 <monqy> which of my roguelikes
17:39:13 <elliott> or even crawl
17:39:16 <elliott> monqy: all of them
17:39:18 <monqy> :o
17:39:25 <elliott> how many do you have
17:39:35 <monqy> there's monqys-crawl and then there's "my roguelike"
17:40:11 <elliott> more like
17:40:12 <elliott> "roguelife"
17:41:01 <monqy> and then there's the possibility i'll split "my roguelike" into numerous "my roguelikes"
17:41:11 <elliott> monqy: what's bad about crawl light btw
17:42:14 <monqy> mostly: it still has things that are bad from crawl, maybe lacks some of crawl's post-fork improvements (which?)
17:42:22 <elliott> dunno
17:42:25 <monqy> like resting and big levels
17:42:30 <elliott> i hear it reversed a lot of nerfs perhaps unfairly
17:42:35 <monqy> oh that too
17:42:41 <monqy> you could try it and see how it goes
17:42:41 <elliott> what about LOS do they plan squarelos
17:42:46 <monqy> idk
17:43:22 <monqy> but the nofood and noid and stuff like that give it a big goodness advantage over crawl also so
17:43:35 <elliott> "im ask"
17:43:36 <monqy> yeah i dunno i'd have to try it
17:43:49 <elliott> #crawllight is scary "so few people"
17:43:53 <elliott> im scared of big channels and small channels
17:44:02 <monqy> i used to be in there but nothing ever happened so i left
17:44:33 <ais523> <elliott> while at the same time asking for nausea to be removed on the grounds that it's tedious and unimportant <--- the amusing thing is, they added nausea because sickness was tedious and unimportant…
17:44:35 <elliott> i think the last scary channel membership is like
17:44:37 <elliott> 40 people
17:44:46 <elliott> as long as they're not friends
17:44:53 <elliott> 30-40 people who don't know each other
17:45:06 <ais523> I remember arguing against nausea, on the basis that it always either did nothing or killed you arbitrarily and unavoidably
17:45:14 <elliott> ais523: you set #CrawlLight's topic; do they plan to squarelos, or are they about to kick me for trolling? :p
17:45:15 <monqy> well, sickness is bad too
17:45:34 <ais523> elliott: I mostly didn't set it; I just added a meme to it
17:45:36 <ais523> bee castle!
17:45:51 <elliott> hi
17:45:56 <ais523> I don't think they'd consider a squarelos suggestion trolling, although I'm not sure if they're planning it or not
17:46:07 <ais523> they'd take it seriously if you made it
17:46:42 <elliott> 18:43 <elliott> what about LOS? :P
17:46:42 <elliott> 18:45 <quairlzr> err
17:46:42 <elliott> 18:45 <quairlzr> i'm not aware of the issue :P
17:46:43 <elliott> 18:45 <elliott> circle vs. square
17:46:45 <elliott> 18:45 <quairlzr> unchanged, and i don't know of plans
17:46:47 <elliott> 18:46 <quairlzr> what is the issue with circular?
17:46:49 <elliott> 18:46 <elliott> it's inconsistent with movement geometry (euclidean rather than chebyshev distance)
17:46:53 <elliott> im "squarelos ambassador"
17:47:07 <ion> Circle vs. square? Pfft. I want a triangular LOS.
17:47:20 <elliott> los in the shape of a giant spider
17:47:29 <monqy> well squarelos is still inconsistent but it has gameplay benefits over circle los
17:47:54 <elliott> 18:47 <quairlzr> hmm, well, I'm unsure
17:48:10 <elliott> 18:48 <elliott> ask monqy if you want more/better arguments :p
17:48:12 <elliott> monqy: enjoiye
17:48:15 <monqy> :(
17:48:39 <elliott> monqy: did you know centaurs used to be speed 20 "facts"
17:48:47 <monqy> whoa
17:48:53 <elliott> (in 1997)
17:49:36 <elliott> monqy: are yoju being asked about squarelos as we speak
17:49:40 <monqy> nop
17:49:47 <elliott> what !!
17:49:54 <elliott> join #CrawlLight immediately
17:49:57 <elliott> im only saying it in
17:49:59 <elliott> uppercases because
17:50:03 <elliott> thats what quairlzr said it in
17:50:08 <elliott> and now
17:50:12 <elliott> what my irc client is convinced its called
17:52:37 <elliott> "perfect disguise "
17:56:16 <elliott> monqy: square lose "talk of the towne"
17:56:47 <zzo38> Do you know the game with the capture rule of go and the win condition of gomoku?
17:57:06 <itidus20> zzomoku
17:58:50 <elliott> monqy: im exhaust my knowledge and stuffe "you take over"
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18:01:06 <elliott> thanks monqy
18:01:15 <monqy> yw np
18:01:22 <itidus20> problem 1 def: tomorrow i will have car seat agoraphobia. solution: minimize that by sleeping well beforehand. problem 2 def: my sleeping pattern is way out. solution: three pronged strategy to induce sleep.
18:01:44 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
18:02:05 <elliott> monqy: im was sarcasm!!!
18:02:24 <elliott> the squarelos cause "dying because of monqy "
18:02:26 <monqy> i know
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18:02:58 <monqy> if you want to get an answer ask dtsund
18:03:04 <elliott> "dying"
18:03:05 <elliott> "because"
18:03:07 <elliott> "of"
18:03:08 <elliott> "monqy"
18:03:35 <elliott> wait for it ........ ... .
18:03:36 <elliott> its ded
18:04:01 <monqy> oops
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18:07:51 <itidus20> phase 1: milk + hot water = triptophane
18:08:11 <monqy> good phase
18:08:30 <itidus20> well i know its in the bible so its a sure thing
18:08:56 <monqy> cool
18:09:10 <itidus20> something about milk putting someone to sleep
18:11:07 <itidus20> #2 equip jacket so flimsy a kobold could attack right through it
18:11:28 <monqy> i don't like where this is going !!
18:11:32 <itidus20> and finally, #3 some asthma medicine
18:11:54 <monqy> do you have asthma
18:12:36 <itidus20> a bit.. but its mild.. but the salbutamol is strangely relaxing even though it's a stimulant
18:12:53 <monqy> "drugs"
18:13:55 <itidus20> no no you got me all wrong before
18:13:57 <elliott> "drugs"
18:15:17 <itidus20> i just meant that jacket is thin compared to chainmail or platemail designed but still designed to insulate and increase my core body temp. not quite seal skin though
18:17:04 <itidus20> i just can't stand being in a car when i haven't had any sleep.. it's like cia torture
18:22:38 <zzo38> In a program like Astrolog, in addition to be able to plot additional data on the calendar, and supporting artificial objects such as ISS, another features of interest would be more features related to navigation. Still, again, all features should be able to work with each other.
18:24:17 <monqy> maybe you can sleep in the car
18:24:27 <monqy> I've done that, it's pretty fun
18:25:16 <monqy> the fun part is not being bored because car or tired because tired
18:25:32 <monqy> "a great experience"
18:27:21 <cheater_> kmc: what's hackin'
18:27:38 <kmc> just got back from eating thai food
18:27:45 <kmc> i'm in nyc for the weekend
18:27:49 <cheater_> why so
18:27:59 <kmc> why nyc? just visiting friends
18:28:04 <cheater_> k
18:28:15 <cheater_> did you want to re-enact that movie you had me watch
18:28:21 <kmc> no
18:28:40 <cheater_> no jumping fridges?
18:28:42 <kmc> getting addicted to smack is not on my list of goals for this trip
18:28:54 <cheater_> double space before "trip"
18:28:55 <kmc> or going ass-to-ass
18:28:56 <cheater_> sign of hesitation
18:28:58 <kmc> indeed cheater_
18:29:07 <cheater_> freudian slip
18:30:03 <cheater_> what about getting gangrene and having your arm cut off while your best buddy is left in a high security prison washing cotton
18:30:51 <cheater_> you have lived in nyc as a teenager right?
18:30:53 <cheater_> which was like half a year ago
18:33:51 <kmc> no
18:34:05 <cheater_> have you ever lived in nyc?
18:34:08 <kmc> i lived in NYC when i was 20 through 22
18:34:48 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:35:39 <kmc> yeah i'll pass on the gangrene as well
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18:44:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:46:28 <cheater_> oh ok
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18:55:19 <fizzie> Twenteen through twenty-tween.
18:56:16 -!- rszeno has left.
18:56:35 <kmc> wouldn't it be tenteen through twelveteen?
18:56:57 <kmc> cheater_: did you at least like the music in the film
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18:59:56 <cheater_> kmc: i knew of kronos quartet long before
19:00:06 <kmc> i'm glad
19:00:31 <cheater_> so i'm glad i got burned?
19:00:47 <cheater_> think of all the things we learned?
19:00:59 <cheater_> glad you're still alive?
19:02:20 <cheater_> too many glados references
19:02:40 <cheater_> lol @ programming arduino with sound card: http://dangerousprototypes.com/wp-content/media/2011/09/audioino_programming_arduino_with_sound.jpg?
19:03:41 <kmc> nice
19:03:52 <cheater_> so kmc are you anywhere near the twin towers of babylon
19:04:06 <kmc> no?
19:04:26 <kmc> ok so it needs a special bootloader
19:04:34 <cheater_> by this i mean the 9/11 convention center
19:04:36 <kmc> i guess that's expected, and it's still kinda cool
19:04:38 <cheater_> yeah
19:04:50 <cheater_> it's pretty damn nice
19:05:01 <kmc> but you could just as well use V-USB with a similar part count
19:05:25 <cheater_> what's the V?
19:05:32 <kmc> in that sense http://www.pjrc.com/hub_isp/ is probably cooler
19:05:36 <kmc> V-USB is a software USB stack for AVR
19:05:44 <cheater_> yeah but this one you can always program from your walkman
19:05:48 <cheater_> just have different data tapes
19:05:52 <cheater_> and a small patch cable
19:05:53 <kmc> heh
19:05:56 <cheater_> lolz
19:06:00 <kmc> or your phone
19:06:10 <cheater_> phone is not hipster enough
19:06:16 <cheater_> has to be a walkman
19:06:25 <cheater_> better option: portable cassette player
19:06:35 <kmc> the hub thing requires a few more parts but no programmer
19:06:38 <cheater_> like one of those desktop ones
19:06:44 <cheater_> what hub thing?
19:06:58 <cheater_> oh
19:07:15 <cheater_> looking
19:09:21 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:11:03 <cheater_> wait
19:11:05 <kmc> cheater_: no i'm not near the freedom hole
19:11:07 <cheater_> let me guess before i read on
19:11:10 <kmc> i'm in east harlem right now
19:11:23 <cheater_> does he program the stuff by turning voltage on and off?
19:11:28 <cheater_> as in power supply voltage?
19:11:30 <kmc> i used to live pretty close to the freedom hole
19:11:47 <kmc> 22 River Terrace, at the north end of Battery Park city
19:12:11 <kmc> about a 5 min walk to the WTC site
19:12:37 <kmc> in fact, on land created during the construction of the original WTC
19:13:08 <cheater_> i'll make sure to stalk you by calling up your landlord and requesting personal information
19:13:30 <kmc> k
19:13:41 <cheater_> you moved in after it got torn down right?
19:13:49 <cheater_> or was that during
19:13:53 <kmc> which
19:14:05 <kmc> i lived in NYC from 2008 to 2010
19:14:25 <cheater_> right, the freedom fighter attack was in like what
19:14:28 <cheater_> 2001?
19:14:31 <kmc> yes
19:14:41 <kmc> the building i lived in already existed at the time
19:14:56 <kmc> so our air vents were probably full of asbestos
19:17:36 <cheater_> mmm, yum asbestos
19:17:50 <cheater_> so what's the green wire in usb?
19:18:00 <cheater_> i'm totally liking this article u linked me 2
19:18:04 <kmc> USB uses differential signaling
19:18:23 <kmc> there are two data lines; they switch off which one has the higher voltage
19:18:28 <kmc> indicating 0 or 1 by it
19:18:53 <cheater_> is green part of the differential pair?
19:19:46 <kmc> i believe the standard code is green and white for data, black for ground, red for +5V
19:20:01 <kmc> i don't remember which voltage pair is 0 and which is 1
19:20:17 <cheater_> meanwhile in ##electrollnics: <Prot> anyone know if 3d printers can print conductive material for leds, chip communication, etc? <cheater_> Prot: no. <Prot> cheater_: so if you try to design electronics, you have to soldier and wire everything manually?
19:20:42 <kmc> haha
19:20:43 <cheater_> kmc: ok gotcha
19:20:53 <kmc> there has been some work with 3d printing electrical connections
19:20:54 <cheater_> kmc: i have no idea how he's getting pulses out the green line ???
19:20:59 <kmc> but home PCB fabrication is much easier
19:21:05 <kmc> also pro PCB fab is pretty cheap
19:21:37 <cheater_> ya
19:21:38 <kmc> cheater_: read the sidebar on the right side of the page
19:21:47 <cheater_> you just do everything in ChinaPCB
19:22:59 <cheater_> right
19:23:01 <cheater_> now i got it
19:24:42 <kmc> it's super slow
19:25:01 <cheater_> ya 13 minutes
19:25:10 <cheater_> maybe he should instead make a Tempest based programmer
19:25:18 <kmc> i think a parallel port programmer has a comparable part count and is much faster
19:25:21 <kmc> but who has a parallel port these days
19:25:27 <kmc> (i do)
19:25:34 <cheater_> i do too
19:25:38 <cheater_> here's a thought
19:25:45 <cheater_> make a SATA programmer
19:26:07 <cheater_> possibly a large parts count though
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19:30:57 <cheater_> kmc: i'm thinking you could possibly take an 8 bit DAC and bitbang through an audio port though
19:31:24 <cheater_> or better yet
19:31:29 <cheater_> no dac, just a slope detector
19:31:37 <cheater_> and a high pass filter
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19:32:49 <kmc> maybe
19:32:55 <cheater_> or yet better: use left and right in differential mode. first start up by outputting nothing and charge a capacitor which will hold the DC voltage between the channels' respective zeros
19:32:56 <kmc> you need two outputs and one input
19:32:59 <nortti> Gregor: I only found three revisions of c2bf and all of them were made by you.
19:33:02 <kmc> yeah
19:33:13 <cheater_> then you start outputting stuff in the signal
19:33:23 <cheater_> a comparator makes it either 0 or 1
19:33:34 <Gregor> nortti: Sounds about right.
19:33:43 <cheater_> then you deserialize
19:33:56 <cheater_> and you have your 4 bits or whatever
19:33:59 <kmc> why can't you just use each channel as an independent output
19:34:08 <kmc> with a capacitor to low pass filter
19:34:15 <cheater_> because i don't know
19:34:22 <cheater_> well
19:34:33 <cheater_> think about what would happen if you had a very long string of 0's
19:34:40 <cheater_> or very long string of 1's
19:34:56 <kmc> oh you'd need a diode too
19:35:04 <cheater_> i guess you could mitigate the issue by having a three-pulse code like this
19:35:06 <kmc> yeah cap + diode + resistor
19:35:07 <cheater_> 01x
19:35:13 <cheater_> where x is the bit you want to send
19:35:16 <cheater_> and 01 always repeat
19:35:25 <kmc> then you can effectively control an output voltage
19:35:50 <kmc> to send a 1, you turn on an audio tone and charge the cap through the diode
19:35:53 <cheater_> wait why do you want an lpf there, you want a hpf there
19:36:01 <kmc> to send a 0, you turn it off and let the cap discharge through the resistor
19:36:09 <kmc> i think we're talking about different applications cheater_
19:36:14 <cheater_> we probably are
19:36:17 <cheater_> haha
19:36:19 <nortti> Gregor: has there been any other revisions of c2bf before revision 1 in trunk or have you put code written by enyone else repo?
19:36:19 <kmc> i'm talking about an iterface from an unprogrammed AVR to a sound card
19:36:27 <cheater_> me too
19:36:29 <kmc> so fancy codes and the like are out
19:36:41 <cheater_> the problem is how to spit data out of the card
19:36:48 <kmc> whatever you put into the chip digitally has to conform to the AVR's programming state machine
19:36:50 <cheater_> it's not a fancy code
19:36:54 <cheater_> you just use a counter of 3
19:36:56 <kmc> not some bootloader you write
19:37:21 <cheater_> every third bit goes to the avr programming state machine sadist
19:37:35 <kmc> ok
19:37:40 <kmc> you still need a counter circuit though
19:37:40 <cheater_> the other two bits get thrown away and are there just to make sure the signal is locally AC at every moment
19:37:48 <cheater_> that's a single chip
19:37:54 <kmc> yeah but not a super common one
19:38:04 <kmc> i think my scheme would work better
19:38:06 <cheater_> ya think
19:38:08 <Gregor> <nortti> Gregor: has there been any other revisions of c2bf before revision 1 in trunk or have you put code written by enyone else repo? // no, no. I'm very careful about copyright headers, if there's code by anybody but me, it's marked as such.
19:38:10 <kmc> but i don't know how to do input
19:38:13 <cheater_> what about a demultiplexer
19:38:17 <kmc> because a microphone port won't detect DC levels
19:38:20 <cheater_> that's common isn't it
19:38:34 <cheater_> a demultiplexer can be used instead
19:38:41 <kmc> cheater_: my scheme doesn't have any ICs or transistors in the output path
19:38:50 <cheater_> why do you need input
19:38:52 <cheater_> at all
19:39:23 <cheater_> wow
19:39:25 <cheater_> how about this one
19:39:26 <cheater_> i got it
19:39:30 <cheater_> one LDR
19:39:32 <cheater_> and one webcam
19:39:36 <cheater_> and one LED
19:39:43 <cheater_> you blink the LED to the webcam as input
19:39:50 <cheater_> you output a blinking square to the LDR
19:40:01 <cheater_> that's fucking minimal isn't it
19:40:06 <kmc> heh
19:40:08 <cheater_> come on
19:40:21 <cheater_> you know it won't get any more ghetto than that
19:40:39 <cheater_> so why do you need input?
19:41:29 <kmc> i'm not sure, but hub_isp has it
19:41:59 <cheater_> or
19:42:14 <cheater_> how about using the numlock, scroll lock and capslock LEDs
19:42:16 <cheater_> and 3 ldr's
19:42:47 <cheater_> that's probably even slower
19:42:54 <cheater_> and would take 5 hours to program a chip
19:43:05 <zzo38> What are you trying to make?
19:43:37 <cheater_> kmc: hey can't you use ethernet with some measurable amount of success in a ghetto circuit?
19:43:53 <cheater_> from what i remember ethernet really lends itself to ghetto interfaces
19:44:16 <kmc> i think that's false
19:44:26 <cheater_> what about banging out packets full of 1's or 0's
19:44:40 <cheater_> and putting that through an LPF
19:44:42 <cheater_> and then using a comparator
19:44:54 <cheater_> or a diode
19:44:56 <cheater_> or something
19:45:10 <cheater_> and by packets i mean frames
19:45:54 <cheater_> can you force an ethernet port to come on and send out frames, even if there was no layer 2 negotiation?
19:46:04 <zzo38> But, what exactly is it that you are trying to make these things for?
19:46:13 <cheater_> scroll up zzo38
19:46:23 <cheater_> we're trying to make a minimal avr programmer
19:46:34 <cheater_> without the use of a parallel or serial port
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19:50:36 <nortti> Gregor: strip/bfstrip.c is written by Erik Bosman and it is under GPL2
19:51:28 <zzo38> The things I can think of are, audio port
19:51:58 <zzo38> You may need to do such things as adjust impedance and so on with resistors and other components
19:51:59 <nortti> Gregor: otherwise all files carry copyright notice that it is yours or doesn't have copyright rule
19:53:51 <cheater_> kmc: http://www.slashdong.org/2011/10/15/pen15-board/
19:53:53 <Gregor> bfstrip is a separate tool, so that shouldn't be a big deal. All the stuff that's mine is now ISC.
19:54:15 <kmc> cheater_: haha
19:54:50 <kmc> cute, but I'm not sure why a teledildonics board would be different from any other robotics board
19:56:12 <kmc> except for having the safety isolation of a legit medical device
19:56:15 <kmc> which this one clearly doesn't
19:56:29 <cheater_> kmc: penis on silk screen
19:56:29 <zzo38> I am not sure what other way there is best other than audio port; parallel port would probably work best but you say you cannot use that
19:56:49 <cheater_> zzo38: it's ok, the moment has passed
19:56:58 <cheater_> we're talking about teledildonics now apparently
19:59:59 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:00:26 <cheater_> or not
20:01:34 <cheater_> kmc: hey, i've been looking at my disk problem more. i think it may be that disk operations incur a noticable cost in cpu
20:01:39 <cheater_> any idea why that might be happening?
20:02:00 <kmc> DMA being disabled, but you checked that already
20:02:10 <kmc> does some kernel thread show up as using CPU in top
20:02:31 <cheater_> no
20:03:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:09:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:20:05 <kmc> why do you think it's a cpu cost
20:22:32 -!- xander345 has joined.
20:22:45 <xander345> hello
20:22:51 <ais523> hi
20:23:15 <ais523> `@ xander345 welcome
20:23:17 <xander345> i own http://codecompiler.info
20:23:19 <HackEgo> No output.
20:23:24 <elliott> `? welcome xander345
20:23:26 <HackEgo> welcome xander345? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:23:28 <ais523> HackEgo: behave yourself
20:23:28 <xander345> i've added an esolang section
20:23:29 <elliott> what
20:23:30 <elliott> oops
20:23:31 <elliott> `welcome xander345
20:23:33 <ais523> `welcome xander345
20:23:34 <elliott> we get it right eventually
20:23:37 <HackEgo> xander345: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:23:37 <HackEgo> xander345: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:23:44 <ais523> I got it right first time, HackEgo was just being naughty
20:23:47 <ais523> `@ xander345 welcome
20:23:50 <HackEgo> No output.
20:23:50 <ais523> I think, at least
20:23:52 <ais523> hmm
20:23:56 <ais523> `cat /bin/@
20:23:59 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/@: No such file or directory
20:24:06 <ais523> someone deleted it, that's what happened…
20:24:11 <elliott> `help
20:24:14 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:24:29 <elliott> nortti: Why did you delete quote 600?
20:24:43 <xander345> is the owner of esolangs.org here?
20:24:43 <ais523> `quote 600
20:24:46 <HackEgo> 600) <Gregor> You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? <Gregor> Monads are like that, only worse.
20:24:47 <elliott> ais523: why did you expect it's in /bin?
20:24:50 <elliott> xander345: that's me
20:24:57 <nortti> elliott: because I was asked to
20:24:57 <elliott> unless you mean the domain; that's owned by Alan Dipert, but I control its DNS
20:24:59 <ais523> elliott: because I thought it was in /bin
20:25:04 <elliott> nortti: hmm, by who?
20:25:06 <ais523> elliott: wow, you forgot the "the"
20:25:15 <nortti> ais523: what did @ do?
20:25:16 <elliott> ais523: I also forgot the capitals
20:25:19 <elliott> I'm professional!
20:25:39 <elliott> `which @
20:25:42 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/@
20:25:59 <ais523> nortti: aim a message at someone
20:26:03 <ais523> `cat bin/@
20:26:05 <elliott> nortti: oh, ignore shachaf when he tells people to delete quotes
20:26:06 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
20:26:08 <ais523> forgot it didn't start in /
20:26:14 <elliott> `revert 384
20:26:16 <nortti> elliott: ok
20:26:17 <HackEgo> Done.
20:26:19 <elliott> xander345: this place is usually less hectic than this
20:26:33 <ais523> elliott: it /was/ less hectic than this until he/she joined
20:26:35 <ais523> I'm guessing he from the username
20:26:37 <elliott> xander345: anyway, I'm available for any esolangs.org related question and/or request
20:26:43 <nortti> elliott: where did you get the number 384?
20:26:59 <elliott> nortti: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/f21648f87766, the revision prior to the delquote
20:27:07 <elliott> although `revert -2 would have worked too, I think
20:27:47 <nortti> elliott: oh yes. I forgot hackego's PWD was repo
20:28:43 <kmc> ┌────────────────────────────┐
20:28:46 <kmc> │ you can't ignore my techno │
20:28:49 <kmc> └────────────────────────────┘
20:28:54 <kmc> ┌────────────────────────────┐
20:28:56 <monqy> yes i can
20:28:57 <kmc> │ you can't ignore my techno │
20:29:00 <kmc> └────────────────────────────┘
20:29:02 <elliott> uh
20:29:05 <elliott> ais523:
20:29:36 <ais523> elliott: ?
20:29:43 <elliott> i forget
20:30:13 -!- xander345 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:30:49 <elliott> xander345: i'm glad to have helped you as the owner of esolangs.org
20:30:58 <elliott> Is there an op present?
20:32:03 <elliott> Someone needs to say "yes" so I can go silent for the next five minutes as a hilarious joke. :(
20:32:11 <ais523> it wouldn't be that funny
20:32:13 <zzo38> No.
20:32:16 <ais523> and you know how to check the access list
20:32:18 <kmc> if you see the police... warn a brother!
20:32:34 <elliott> thanks zzo38
20:33:47 <kmc> ┌──────────┐
20:33:47 <kmc> │ cheater_ │
20:33:47 <kmc> └──────────┘
20:33:58 <Kray> _______________________________
20:33:58 <Kray> < Esoteric languages fuck yeah! >
20:33:59 <Kray> -------------------------------
20:33:59 <Kray> \ _
20:33:59 <Kray> \ (_) \
20:34:02 <Kray> ^__^ / \
20:34:04 <Kray> \ (oo)\_____/_\ \
20:34:07 <Kray> (__)\ ) /
20:34:09 <Kray> ||----w ((
20:34:12 <Kray> || ||>>
20:34:12 <elliott> can we not do this
20:34:15 <Kray> hmm, I think that broke
20:34:19 <kmc> YA THINK
20:34:21 <monqy> rip cow
20:34:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:34:42 <kmc> your cow is so bad it killed PH
20:34:43 <monqy> rip hover
20:36:12 <ais523> is that an apt cow?
20:36:21 <ais523> ah, no
20:36:26 <kmc> it's a butfuckt cow
20:36:28 <Kray> should I try again
20:36:31 <kmc> no
20:36:34 <ais523> $ aptitude moo
20:36:36 <ais523> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
20:36:53 -!- ddd has joined.
20:36:56 <elliott> `welcome ddd
20:37:00 <HackEgo> ddd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:37:20 -!- ddd has quit (Client Quit).
20:37:23 <ais523> meh, plain gdb is better
20:37:26 <monqy> `unwelcome ddd
20:37:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
20:37:39 <ais523> oh, ddd = xander345, btw
20:37:42 <fizzie> ais523: I suppose you know aptitude --verbose moo.
20:37:47 <elliott> ais523: i suspected
20:37:48 <ais523> fizzie: no, let me try that
20:37:56 <elliott> ais523: i'm not sure what is "up with them"
20:37:56 <ais523> haha
20:38:01 <fizzie> You can keep adding more -v's up to some point.
20:38:18 <elliott> presumably ais523 has also tried apt-get moo
20:38:28 <ais523> stops at -vvvvvv
20:38:39 <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's what I was referencing, I wasn't sure if it was the same cow or not
20:38:58 <kmc> that cow is from cowsay
20:39:26 <ais523> incidentally, ddate seems to have disappeared from the repos altogether
20:39:36 <ais523> it's no longer in coreutils, and it isn't anywhere else either
20:39:48 <kmc> sucks!
20:39:55 <ais523> ~$ sdate date
20:39:56 <ais523> Sat Sep 6829 21:39:47 BST 1993
20:39:59 <ais523> that one's still there, though
20:40:18 <kmc> what's it?
20:40:23 <ais523> although not in coreutils
20:40:32 <fizzie> There was the bugreport about removing ddate, where it was (IIRC) first closed as "no, we won't remove it", but then they flipflopped and did.
20:40:39 <ais523> kmc: sdate's a library injection thing that causes date-related syscalls to return values in september 1993
20:40:47 <kmc> why?
20:40:48 <nortti> tazpkg doesn't have cow hidden but my own pkgmgr has if cowsay is installed
20:40:53 <elliott> kmc: eternal september
20:40:55 <ais523> kmc: because september 1993 never ended
20:41:01 <kmc> i get it
20:41:18 <kmc> stupid though
20:41:23 <zzo38> I suppose it would allow you to see what happens in case of strange values returned by date-related syscalls
20:41:37 <elliott> how can you tell http://www.df7cb.de/projects/sdate/mutt.png stupid
20:41:38 <ais523> zzo38: indeed, many programs act oddly or brokenly under sdate
20:41:49 <elliott> (bonus: it does the same to outgoing Date headers)
20:42:14 <ais523> obviously
20:42:59 <kmc> someone made a library injection thing for Random Standard Time too
20:43:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:43:09 <ais523> kmc: is that just random timezones?
20:43:19 <kmc> i'm not sure if RST would fit in POSIX locale framework
20:43:20 <kmc> no
20:43:30 <kmc> it's the timezone used in Random Hall at MIT
20:43:32 <zzo38> Does sdate have an option to change the reference month, or to do other things to date syscalls? (Possibly, add these features to same program including the ones for Random Standard Time and so on)
20:43:41 <kmc> which is really not a timezone but an alternate way of writing time
20:44:14 <kmc> where hours 00 through 05 are spelled 24 through 29
20:44:26 <kmc> so that the day rolls over at a time when fewer people are awake
20:44:27 <fizzie> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=149321 "tags 149321 + wontfix; ddate is staying, and as indicated, 180737 is already fixed." Then there's #650321 where util-linux made ddate optional and people were asking Debian folks to add the --enable-ddate to the package. Too bored to search for when it finally went away.
20:44:59 <ais523> zzo38: it lets you change the reference month, but nothing else
20:45:23 <ais523> fizzie: splitting it into a different package is an obvious thing to do
20:46:17 <fizzie> Possibly, though it's upstreamistically part of util-linux. Or at least was.
20:46:34 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people have objected to it, especially it being part of the base install.
20:46:43 <fizzie> Like #583503 "Subject: ddate: this useless joke program has no place in a base debian install" -- "I do not want this program on my machines and it has outstanding i18n/l10n bugs."
20:48:15 <fizzie> There was a bit in 2003 in Debian when util-linux 2.11z-3 "Drop ddate. Closes: #149321, #174459, #180737" and then seven hours later util-linux 2.11z-4 "Put ddate back in, just to keep the natives quiet".
20:48:45 <fizzie> But I see it's totally gone in latest util-linux versions even without an entry in the changelog. Perhaps the upstream dropped it.
20:50:39 <fizzie> Oh, I was looking at an old changelog.
20:52:05 <fizzie> In fact util-linux 2.20.1-2 in debian stable says "Re-enable ddate, disabled by default upstream in 2.20". But a search for the file name in Debian unstable doesn't find it, so I don't quite know what's up with it.
20:52:10 <fizzie> s/stab/unstab/
20:52:14 <fizzie> Unstabbed debian.
20:53:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
20:53:25 <kmc> it's much easier to stab than to unstab
20:59:57 <cheater_> kmc, i just can't ignore your techno
21:01:01 <cheater_> <kmc> why do you think it's a cpu cost < because on youtube the videos are stuttering while they're caching. also, the caching is much slower while i'm doing playback.
21:03:33 <cheater_> kmc, have you finished the game continuity yet
21:03:37 <cheater_> it's really cool
21:03:45 <cheater_> cooler than porificetal
21:04:02 <cheater_> not cooler than portal2 though which i haven't pld yet
21:04:11 <cheater_> http://continuitygame.com/playcontinuity.html
21:04:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im bring it
21:04:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: los euclidaen los is bad hi
21:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus christ monqy just tell me why using Euclidean LOS for lighting is Bad.
21:05:29 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:46 <monqy> which aspects are euclidean here
21:07:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Just the LOS.
21:07:54 <elliott> that's unspecific
21:08:02 <elliott> you can have euclidean circlelos and euclidean squarelos
21:08:13 <monqy> the shape of the lines i assume he means, not how they're bounded
21:08:26 <elliott> euclidean circlelos looks like an approximation of a circle on a euclidean display, euclidean squarelos looks like a square on a euclidean display
21:08:27 <elliott> monqy: right
21:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea what the hell you're going on about
21:09:13 <monqy> for the shape of the lines: i'm sure i have my reasons for disliking it but the only ones i can recall at the moment are "wow it feels ugly and i just don't like it" and "it's harder for players to predict/measure when something will be in los from a certain position"
21:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> LOS can't look like either a square or circle, it's just a line.
21:09:34 <elliott> oh
21:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You're confusing it with the distance metric.
21:09:41 <elliott> that's not how los works
21:09:43 <elliott> nno
21:09:44 <elliott> we're not
21:09:52 <elliott> in crawl-likes
21:09:57 <elliott> los is the region around you that you can see
21:10:07 <elliott> (you still see a map around the rest if you've been there but it's dimmed and you don't get any updates to it)
21:10:24 <elliott> in crawl it's a circle so if you stand in a featureless plane you'll see an illuminated circle-approximation around you
21:10:37 <elliott> and can't see or target anything outside (and the same applies to monsters)
21:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, well fair point wrt prediction, but in this case it's the lighting engine: you don't really need to be able to predict lines of sight, just make them look natural.
21:10:57 <quintopia> and continuity finished
21:11:05 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: you do need to predict lines of sight for ducking around corners to avoid monsters, etc.
21:11:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:11:11 <elliott> you do
21:11:12 <elliott> see above
21:11:13 <elliott> it's what monsters see
21:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, you were doing this for the /player's/ LOS?
21:11:20 <elliott> los is a very game-relevant thing
21:11:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: player and monsters
21:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover> OK your algorithm is even more batshit insane.
21:12:07 <elliott> thanks
21:12:15 <elliott> im not defending my algorithm but
21:12:23 <elliott> im undefending a euclidean algorithm
21:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well it seems like the best option by far.
21:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously it can be unintuitive and it's a hack, but it's still closest to what you expect.
21:13:15 <elliott> not
21:13:16 <elliott> really
21:13:40 <elliott> in crawl i just take it on faith that where i'm running will get me out of los of the spellcaster/ranged-attack enemy
21:13:45 <monqy> "closest to what you expect"?
21:13:46 <elliott> and i'm often wrong
21:14:21 <monqy> maybe i'm weird but i wouldn't expect a game on a square grid to approximate euclidean stuff
21:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well what else would you expect?
21:16:28 <monqy> something between "something based on the distance metric" and "no expectations because everyone runs to euclidean so it'd be unwise to expect people do things other than that"
21:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is that when you have a distance metric without even remotely unique shortest paths calculating lines of sight is inevitably arbitrary.
21:18:36 <monqy> sure
21:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And the Euclidean shortest path seems to be the most intuitive one.
21:21:06 <monqy> doesn't seem like that to me but whatever. if you're basing this on your intuition i don't think there's anything i can do to stop you???
21:23:21 <elliott> that was a live replay of the infamous 2012 monqy–Phantom_Hoover "battle of the losses"
21:23:37 <elliott> within a week the human race was extinct :(
21:24:34 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:24:58 <kmc> ┌───────────────────────┐
21:24:58 <kmc> │ whoever wins, we lose │
21:24:59 <kmc> └───────────────────────┘
21:25:21 <elliott> stop doing that box thing
21:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, well I have to admit I've never played Crawl so I don't know the gameplay considerations beyond having seen a similar system in Dwarf Fortress.
21:27:04 <elliott> sounds like you should play crawl!!!!
21:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry i cant im windows user now
21:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: most people play online
21:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (dont version its all lies)
21:32:04 <elliott> if you have putty you can play the same as everyone else does!!
21:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry windows user
21:33:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: putty is for windows !!!
21:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> um
21:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> windows 3 user??
21:34:41 * ais523 suggests Big Idea to improve Unity on Unity mailing list
21:34:58 <ais523> I have some small ideas too, but I want to get the big one done first to make the small ones more palatable
21:35:39 <elliott> what's the idea
21:35:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think windows 3 had telnet
21:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i doubt that it supported curses
21:36:37 <elliott> uhhhh
21:36:40 <elliott> do you know anything about telnet
21:37:02 <elliott> monqy: ph is going to play crawl lets watch
21:37:22 <monqy> cdo?
21:37:36 <elliott> yaep
21:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that it didn't work on Windows when I telnetted into that crawl server.
21:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Holy ping, Batman!
21:38:47 <elliott> crawl.akrasiac.org may be faster if you're in america!!!
21:39:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also choose "trunk"
21:39:33 <elliott> dont play stable versions theyre so unfashionable
21:39:41 <elliott> i was going to say except for 4.1 but
21:39:43 <elliott> that's an alpha!
21:40:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: we,re waitinge
21:40:40 <ais523> I am enthusiastic enough about Unity to write patches for it /even though it's written in C++/!
21:40:57 <elliott> ais523: what was the big idaees
21:41:11 <ais523> elliott: allowing you to pin things more precisely than applications
21:41:27 <elliott> I don't think they'd want to move away from an application-centric model
21:41:41 <ais523> so I can pin a "compose email" window, or a "terminal running telnet to nethack.alt.org", or a particular folder in my filesystem (it's pretty shocking that you can't do that already, btw)
21:41:57 -!- nortti has joined.
21:41:58 <ais523> and it's not moving away from an application-centric model; it's just blurring the boundaries of what an application is
21:42:04 <ais523> do you consider gmail to be an application?
21:42:18 <elliott> I'm not agreeing with their position
21:42:23 <ais523> I'm arguing that both gmail and chromium should be considered applications, even though one runs within the other
21:42:25 <elliott> but "application" is an artificial boundary anyway
21:42:33 <elliott> ais523: chromium already supports saving as an application, anyway
21:42:35 <ais523> yep, I'm just making the boundary configurable
21:42:45 <elliott> my point is that the application-centric ideology is incoherent
21:42:47 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but the OS doesn't know that
21:42:55 <elliott> you can't attempt to disprove that by telling me it's arbitrary
21:43:02 <ais523> I'm not trying to disprove you
21:43:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im waitinge!
21:43:09 <elliott> monqy: are you waitinge
21:43:12 <monqy> yes
21:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: were waitinge
21:43:18 <ais523> I'm trying to make it a little more coherent by letting the user specify where their mental boundaries are
21:43:42 <elliott> ais523: I didn't say it wasn't an improvement
21:43:54 <ais523> indeed
21:43:56 <elliott> but since they hold an application-centric ideology, they will probably be quite tied to the current definition of application
21:43:58 <ais523> are we disagreeing with each other or not?
21:44:05 <elliott> so I suspect they'll not be fond of the change, at least to start with
21:44:10 <elliott> I may be overly-cynical and proven wrong
21:44:26 <ais523> elliott: well, the fun thing is, it's possible to do that already, but with a lot of manual work in config files, and it's buggy
21:44:48 <ais523> (to be precise, you have to use your new manual files to start things rather than starting them from places other than the launcher, e.g. a terminal window)
21:44:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ok playing crawll
21:45:15 <ais523> "you can do this already let's make it not so stupidly user-unfriendly" is the sort of line I expect to work well on the Unity people
21:45:16 <elliott> im watching
21:45:18 <elliott> uhhh
21:45:24 <elliott> monqy: recommend Phantom_Hoover a combo or somethinge
21:45:26 <monqy> im watche
21:45:29 <monqy> aaahhhhhhh
21:45:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: demonspawn is ok
21:45:32 <monqy> elliott: you recommend
21:45:37 <elliott> maybe berserker or abyssal knight
21:45:44 <elliott> uhhh
21:45:45 <cheater_> what's up kmc
21:45:46 <elliott> no
21:45:49 <elliott> dont't do that
21:45:58 <elliott> ph
21:45:59 <elliott> no
21:46:08 <elliott> ph
21:46:10 <elliott> stop playing naie
21:46:22 <kmc> not much
21:46:30 <kmc> i wrote a program to put stuff in boxes
21:46:32 <ais523> btw, it's kind-of fun when you accidentally introduce a segfault into your window manager
21:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> how to i throw
21:46:42 <monqy> f
21:46:47 <monqy> z to spelle
21:46:50 <elliott> no Phantom_Hoover you have to actually playe now
21:46:59 <ais523> I've had quite a bit of practice at recovering from that; alt-f1 is useful, so is having lots of windows open that can run arbitrary shell commands (Emacs, etc)
21:49:11 <ais523> did you know you can start a window manager from a Linux (i.e. non-GUI) terminal and have it work on the X display? (actually, probably you did)
21:49:33 <nortti> ais523: what wm are you using and how do you manage to segfault it?
21:49:47 <ais523> nortti: compiz, and by patching Unity (which is implemented as a compiz plugin)
21:50:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hi
21:50:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try o
21:50:35 <elliott> and
21:50:36 <elliott> don't play naie
21:50:47 <monqy> have you tried naie elliott
21:51:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:51:30 <monqy> oh
21:52:36 <nortti> ais523: did you know that you can start X without anything that starts when using startx by typing X (or Xorg or Xvesa or Xfvdev depending on your system)
21:52:49 <ais523> nortti: yes, I did
21:52:55 <ais523> found that out while developing weboflies
21:53:15 <ais523> or Xvfb if you don't want it to contact your hardware at all
21:54:14 <nortti> ais523: have you used Xvfb?
21:54:23 <ais523> yes, well sort of
21:54:35 <ais523> I haven't yet used it in an environment where it doesn't automatically segfault
21:54:49 <ais523> due to mapping things too close to the growing end of the stack
21:54:56 <ais523> need to fix that weboflies bug…
21:57:59 <elliott> ais523: web oflies
21:58:00 <cheater_> kmc: what do you mean put stuff in boxes?
21:58:08 <cheater_> kmc: btw, http://jimblog.me/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/c++map2.png
22:02:50 <kmc> nice
22:03:18 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:03:48 <kmc> huh i didn't know about std::rope
22:05:54 <ais523> elliott: well, someone on the mailing list seems to agree with me, but that's not very surprising, there are lost of people on the list
22:06:11 <elliott> lots of lost people
22:09:20 <ais523> there were a bunch of people trying to persuade the Unity devs to add click-to-minimize for applications with one window open, which would be massively confusing and inconsistent, so I can see why they said no
22:09:41 <ais523> but in a diplomatic way, along the lines of "we want that to do something else in the next version, so there's no point in changing it now"
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22:46:25 <elliott> hi ph bye ph
22:50:15 <cheater_> kmc: well obviously i linked you to it, which means i know more about c++ than you!
22:50:23 <cheater_> kmc: i will now perform seppuku.
22:52:06 <ais523> hmm, what's the easiest way to get a list of all functions in curses? nm? the man page (I think there's a list there)?
22:52:33 <elliott> bash keys randomly and press enter every sixth letter or so
22:52:45 <elliott> avoid too many vowels
22:53:00 <ais523> err, a /correct/ list
22:53:08 <elliott> you'd be surprised how effective that would be
22:53:45 <cheater_> kmc: did u know of the "select" keyword in bash
22:53:50 <cheater_> select f in aaa bbb ccc ddd ; do echo $f ; break ; done
22:54:00 <ais523> anyway, here is my Grand Plan for Unity: https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg09410.html
22:54:40 <elliott> ais523: it's Gmail, not GMail, by the way
22:54:55 <ais523> I don't care :)
22:55:00 <ais523> perhaps I'll get it right in the future
22:55:05 <ais523> actually, it's Googlemail, in the UK
22:55:07 <ais523> for trademark reasons
22:55:07 <elliott> no, it's not
22:55:11 <elliott> it's been Gmail everywhere for years
22:55:18 <ais523> oh, did they manage to buy a license?
22:55:30 <elliott> probably
22:55:31 <elliott> or sued the company out of existence or something
22:55:37 <elliott> or killed everyone who works there
22:55:41 <elliott> it's Google, who knows?
22:55:59 <elliott> hmm, I just realised how weird it is for an originally-Google Google product to not start with Google
22:56:03 <elliott> "Gmail" is a strange word
22:56:54 <elliott> ais523: btw, how could you pin a nethack server with a file?
22:57:01 <elliott> write an .sh file?
22:57:11 <ais523> elliott: you'd pin "telnet nethack.alt.org"
22:57:19 <elliott> that's rather hopelessly vague
22:57:22 <ais523> this is actually technically possible right now, but you have to write the .desktop file by hand
22:57:25 <ais523> and no, that's a shell command
22:57:28 <elliott> why not simply pin files directly, and open them in the relevant application?
22:57:38 <elliott> so you'd pin an .sh for a terminal, or a folder for Nautilus
22:57:55 <elliott> well, make it a URI, so you can do the browser thing too
22:58:01 <ais523> elliott: because if you do "telnet nethack.alt.org" in a terminal /not/ via the .sh file, it wouldn't be detected as the thing you'd pinned
22:58:05 <elliott> everything /already supports/ opening a URI in an appropriate application
22:58:14 <elliott> and you could use telnet://nethack.alt.org/
22:58:17 <ais523> likewise, things like the compose email window in Evolution, I want to be able to pin that
22:58:28 <elliott> ais523: err, that's going to require /way/ too much cooperation with applications to work
22:58:31 <Lumpio-> What's the point of "nethack servers"
22:58:32 <ais523> and it can't reasonably be described with a URI, /and/ I want it to be detected if you click on "new mail" in Evolution
22:58:39 <Lumpio-> They got something that the usual distribution doesn't?
22:58:46 <elliott> Lumpio-: you can't cheat, and people can watch
22:58:49 <ais523> Lumpio-: people can watch you, it proves you aren't cheating, you can get other people's bones
22:58:54 <elliott> more or less every serious nethack player plays on servers
22:58:56 <Lumpio-> oh ok
22:59:04 <elliott> (except for really oldschool people, I guess)
22:59:04 <Lumpio-> Spectating is a good point
22:59:06 <elliott> (and the DevTeam)
22:59:09 <ais523> elliott: the "/way/ too much cooperation with applications" is the route I'm going through
22:59:25 <ais523> I don't think it's that much of a problem, really
22:59:33 <ais523> have you seen how much cooperation already exists?
22:59:34 <Lumpio-> nethack pr0gamers
22:59:37 <Lumpio-> ¬u¬
22:59:38 <elliott> ais523: seems like mine gives 80% of the benefits with 20% of the effort
22:59:54 <elliott> ais523: and your original email describes my scheme
22:59:57 <ais523> elliott: nah, pinning the compose mail window (so it doesn't group with my inbox) is actually the change that I most want
23:00:00 <elliott> you don't say anything about shell lines or anything, just files
23:00:09 <ais523> I use "file" in a general sense, perhaps that's misleading
23:00:18 <elliott> a compose mail window is not a file
23:00:30 <ais523> it is in this model
23:00:35 <ais523> which implies it's badly named
23:00:44 <elliott> ais523: how can Unity know how to open the compose mail window in Evolution, just because you tell it about the window?
23:01:03 <ais523> elliott: because Evolution tells it how
23:01:04 <elliott> it'd require a /lot/ more code in applications to handle this sort of stuff
23:01:23 <elliott> ais523: for every single window Evolution can open?
23:01:32 <ais523> if you think this is unreasonable, try, say, right-clicking on Chromium, or Nautilus, or Firefox in Unity
23:01:33 <elliott> the translation to the codepath required to open them won't be trivial
23:01:39 <elliott> I know about that
23:01:52 <elliott> that's much less code than would be required for this
23:01:58 <ais523> and I wouldn't bother doing it for, say, preferences dialogs
23:02:14 <ais523> alternatively, I guess you could pin the inbox and then have all the other windows Evolution opens under Evolution rather than Inbox (Evolution)
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23:32:50 <shachaf> elliott: Why? It was a bad quote.
23:34:42 <ais523> elliott: anyway, the work will need to be done anyway so that you can pin files from having them open in applications, rather than just from Nautilus or whatever
23:35:03 <ais523> /me: making things slightly more usable even if it takes five times the effort
23:52:43 <ais523> bleh, why does tcgetpgrp only work on a terminal you're currently connected to?
23:53:30 <ais523> I can understand wanting to compare users, but not to compare controlling terminals
23:53:42 <ais523> why can't my program on terminal 1 check to see which program is currently running on terminal 2/
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