←2012-05-20 2012-05-21 2012-05-22→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:01:55 <elliott> shachaf: i don't get the pattern
00:02:39 <shachaf> length (...x...x'...xs) == length xs - 1
00:02:44 <shachaf> Er, length xs + 1
00:02:55 <shachaf> I guess it's a bit of a strange pattern.
00:03:31 <elliott> length [x] is not x
00:04:05 <zzo38> Unless x is 1
00:04:05 <shachaf> ?
00:05:58 <shachaf> Really [] is the wrong thing to use here anyway.
00:06:01 <shachaf> So never mind. :-)
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00:08:20 <zzo38> Is (Free (Writer x)) like (Writer [x]) ?
00:16:17 <zzo38> If in Haskell you have a random bit interface, then the class to generate random values of a type could be: class GenRandom x where { genRandom :: Free ((->) Bool) x; }; And now you can od this: instance (GenRandom x, GenRandom y) => GenRandom (x, y) where { genRandom = liftPair (genRandom, genRandom); };
00:19:18 <zzo38> instance GenRandom Bool where { genRandom = Free Pure; }; instance GenRandom () where { genRandom = Pure (); };
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00:32:10 <elliott> monqy: ha ha ha
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00:35:02 <monqy> whats so funny
00:35:53 <elliott> removing the spel you cast every 3 turns is funy
00:36:03 <monqy> no it's not
00:36:14 <elliott> it is if i want it to be!!!
00:36:30 <monqy> im plan to remove all sources of flight/lev in monqys-crawl
00:36:38 <monqy> take that, science
00:36:43 <elliott> but why
00:37:19 <monqy> because all reasons for it existing are awful and should be undone
00:37:42 <elliott> what are the reasons
00:38:10 <monqy> well boosting swiftness was already removed in vanilla so that's not one of them
00:38:45 <monqy> in particular levitation is awful because of the whole being flight but you have to wait for it to time out before you can interact with items thing
00:39:36 <monqy> maybe it has "interesting tactical uses" in few cases but normally if you're in an area with deep water or lava you maintain it, and if you don't have it, you don't go there
00:40:39 <elliott> monqy: yeah im fine with items being interactable all the time
00:40:47 <elliott> so "merge 'em"
00:41:32 <monqy> i don't know what to do with water/lava since i don't quite want to do the full mcrawl with them but they're awful as-is too
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01:20:38 <elliott> monqy: hi
01:20:44 <monqy> hhhelo
01:21:25 <ion> hi
01:21:42 <ion> I just finished this week’s electronics homework.
01:21:53 <monqy> which week
01:22:41 <ion> this
01:23:15 <monqy> there are many weeks containing today !
01:23:35 <ion> Whichever week it is in Massachusetts.
01:23:47 <monqy> that's not helpful
01:24:07 <elliott> monqy: what week is it in california :(
01:24:50 <monqy> there are many weeks containing today !
01:24:55 <monqy> which week do you mean
01:25:00 <elliott> that one
01:25:02 <monqy> hlep
01:25:20 <monqy> there's a week starting today, a week ending today, a week with today as the second day,
01:25:37 <monqy> there is no week with today as the eighth day because weeks do not have eight days
01:26:24 <ion> The deadline is in 2½ hours AFAIU.
01:26:32 <elliott> monqy: maybe some weeks do!
01:26:40 <monqy> my weeks don't
01:26:58 <ion> monqy: Weeks don’t have eight days? Which planet are you on?
01:27:10 <monqy> plauto
01:27:37 <quintopia> ion: you doing the MIT course?
01:27:46 <ion> quintopia: yeah
01:27:59 <quintopia> i considered it
01:28:01 <elliott> monqy: the only planet ever founded by the ancient roman plato
01:28:24 <ion> quintopia: It has been great. I’ve wanted to learn electronics since i was a kid.
01:28:30 <quintopia> elliott: who was the ancient roman plato
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01:29:05 <quintopia> ion: i learned some electronics by reading the ARRL handbook and various websites. i find it is better to learn by doing.
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01:30:57 <elliott> quintopia: the ancient roman plato was the founder of the planet plauto
01:31:41 <quintopia> elliott: thanks for the circularity. the real question is whether the ancient roman plato was a philosopher like plato was
01:31:51 <elliott> who's plato
01:31:54 <elliott> you mean the ancient roman?
01:32:20 <quintopia> no i was referring to the greek philosopher, student of socrates
01:32:32 <elliott> stop making people up
01:32:54 <quintopia> well, who is going to inhabit your made-up planet if i don't?
01:33:19 <elliott> monqy: what is quintopia on about
01:34:38 <quintopia> monqy: what is elliott off about
01:35:21 <monqy> off about?
01:35:25 <monqy> he's dead on
01:35:30 <monqy> about the ancient roman plato
01:36:04 <monqy> very dead and very on
01:36:36 <quintopia> is elliott "ancient roman" also?
01:37:23 <elliott> monqy: oh no your client puts a space after the <
01:37:28 <elliott> please fix, please fix, please fix
01:37:35 <elliott> it hurts me more than anything
01:38:32 <monqy> i'm not going to fix it
01:38:45 <monqy> i actually kind of like it??
01:38:54 <elliott> no
01:38:55 <elliott> monqy
01:38:56 <elliott> stop
01:38:59 <elliott> you can't do this to me
01:39:00 <monqy> no
01:39:01 <elliott> fix it
01:39:03 <elliott> correct
01:39:03 <monqy> im gojing to do it
01:39:04 <elliott> it\
01:39:06 <elliott> no
01:39:07 <monqy> no
01:39:08 <monqy> no
01:39:08 <elliott> you can't!
01:39:09 <elliott> no
01:39:10 <elliott> stop
01:39:10 <monqy> i can
01:39:12 <elliott> fix it
01:39:14 <elliott> fix it now
01:39:16 <monqy> il never stop
01:39:19 <monqy> 18:39:10 < elliott> stop
01:39:20 <monqy> 18:39:12 < elliott> fix it
01:39:20 <monqy> 18:39:14 < elliott> fix it now
01:39:26 <elliott> what client
01:39:29 <elliott> do you use
01:39:31 <monqy> i'd bold the spaces but
01:39:34 <monqy> cant bold spaces
01:39:40 <monqy> irssi
01:39:40 <elliott> tell me monqy
01:39:44 -!- elliott has quit.
01:39:46 <monqy> you could just VERSION me
01:39:51 <monqy> what a jerk !!!
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01:40:11 <elliott> i did
01:40:12 <elliott> version you
01:40:13 <elliott> but
01:40:15 <elliott> my internet
01:40:15 <elliott> died
01:40:17 <elliott> so
01:40:19 <elliott> the
01:40:21 <elliott> connection dropped
01:40:26 <elliott> monqy: ok
01:40:27 <monqy> oh
01:40:57 <elliott> /set show_nickmode_empty off
01:40:57 <elliott> just
01:40:58 <elliott> try it
01:40:59 <elliott> for me
01:41:18 <ion> Don’t do it.
01:41:26 <monqy> i;m not going to do it
01:41:27 <elliott> just try it monqy
01:41:29 <elliott> come on
01:41:31 <elliott> pal
01:41:32 <elliott> try it
01:41:33 <elliott> friend
01:41:40 <ion> I’m not your buddy, pal!
01:41:42 <monqy> what's your problem with the spaces
01:41:46 <elliott> one
01:41:51 <elliott> they're asymmetric wrt the >
01:41:51 <elliott> two
01:42:02 <elliott> the < looks horribly disconnected from the nick itself, esp. as <> aren't really the greatest enclosers in the first place
01:42:05 <elliott> three
01:42:06 <ion> They’re symmetric wrt. the @, +
01:42:06 <elliott> it's hideous
01:42:09 <elliott> four
01:42:11 <monqy> yes what ion said
01:42:15 <elliott> it means that you break everyone else's awk scripts
01:42:21 <elliott> monqy: nobody's @ and + on freenode!!!
01:42:21 <elliott> and also
01:42:24 <elliott> if you're going to align things like that
01:42:25 <ion> Everyone else’s awk scripts suck.
01:42:26 <elliott> then
01:42:26 <monqy> their awk scrips can go die
01:42:27 <monqy> yes they are
01:42:29 <elliott> you should be using right-aligned nicks
01:42:33 <monqy> i see @ and + all the time
01:42:34 <elliott> like xchat does
01:42:37 <monqy> cf crawl-dev
01:42:44 <elliott> if you don't want that : don't put a space after the <!
01:42:52 <elliott> monqy: well they're ~breaking network guidelines~ so there
01:42:54 <elliott> turn off
01:42:55 <elliott> the space
01:42:56 <elliott> immediately
01:42:57 <monqy> no
01:43:00 <monqy> shut up!!!
01:43:00 <elliott> yes
01:43:02 <elliott> no
01:43:02 <elliott> !
01:43:04 <monqy> !
01:43:04 <elliott> it's wrong
01:43:06 <elliott> and immoral
01:43:08 <monqy> you;re wrong
01:43:08 <elliott> and horrible
01:43:10 <elliott> turn off the space
01:43:11 <monqy> and horrible
01:43:12 <elliott> you;re awful
01:43:15 <elliott> die :(
01:43:27 <monqy> maybe it'd look better if you used monospac font
01:43:42 <elliott> ive used monospaced font on irc you shit!!!!!!!!! :'(
01:43:45 <elliott> it was still hideous even then!
01:43:47 <zzo38> What awk scripts do you mean?
01:43:47 <elliott> its always been hideous
01:43:48 <elliott> youre hideous!
01:44:21 <elliott> monqy: i can;t believe youre so wrong
01:44:28 <monqy> youre wronger
01:44:37 <elliott> no
01:44:39 <elliott> no
01:44:39 <elliott> you
01:44:40 <elliott> are wrong
01:44:43 <monqy> youre wrongest
01:44:43 <elliott> you are so wrong about this
01:44:47 <elliott> no
01:44:48 <elliott> listen
01:44:49 <elliott> you don't understand
01:44:52 <elliott> how wrong you are
01:44:53 <elliott> turn it off
01:44:56 <elliott> now
01:44:56 <monqy> you havent given me one good reason !!!!!
01:44:58 <elliott> yes i have
01:45:01 <elliott> ive given you like three
01:45:05 <elliott> actually four
01:45:06 <elliott> the inconsistency
01:45:07 <monqy> no
01:45:09 <monqy> they all suck
01:45:12 <elliott> wrt. not aligning the >s but aligning the @s and non-@s
01:45:16 <monqy> it's consistent with @ and + etc
01:45:18 <elliott> theres no justifiable reason to "align"
01:45:21 <monqy> which is what matters to me
01:45:24 <elliott> when there's no alignment of the messages itself
01:45:25 <elliott> it's inconsistent
01:45:26 <elliott> you're terrible
01:45:28 <elliott> turn it off now
01:45:33 <monqy> no!!!
01:45:35 <elliott> yes
01:45:45 <elliott> olsner: you have good opinions right
01:45:51 <elliott> olsner: "< nick> blah" is an abomination right
01:46:56 <elliott> monqy: stop
01:47:05 <elliott> every message you receive with that setting is a personal affront against me
01:47:24 <monqy> 18:46:56 < elliott> monqy: stop
01:47:28 <monqy> as u can see: i have not stoped
01:50:15 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/mirc.png
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01:51:02 <monqy> perhaps it also looks better on my client than eliots because the < and > are all dark grey and so is the timestamp
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02:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:33 <monqy> ----
02:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:36 <monqy> 19:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:38 <monqy> 19:08:36 <monqy> 19:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:45 <ion> noooooooo
02:08:53 <monqy> everything looks weird
02:09:02 <ion> ma050833 monqy 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:09:07 <monqy> this will take some "getting used to"
02:09:22 <ion> Don’t succumb to eliot’s whims!
02:09:53 <monqy> he finally got me with `addquote
02:10:42 <elliott> vision of a terrifying world:
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02:10:48 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/</< /g' quotes
02:10:52 <HackEgo> No output.
02:10:54 <elliott> `quote
02:10:54 <elliott> `quote
02:10:55 <elliott> `quote
02:10:56 <elliott> `quote
02:10:58 <elliott> `quote
02:11:07 <HackEgo> 390) < oklofok> what would you ever need petrol for < oklofok> newsflash: it doesn't actually taste that good
02:11:10 <monqy> oh no what if you messed up something importante
02:11:12 <HackEgo> 428) < ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 621) < fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. < fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 486) < pikhq> I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age.
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 147) < fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
02:11:37 <elliott> `revert
02:11:40 <HackEgo> Done.
02:11:41 <elliott> monqy: "messing fixed"
02:11:56 <elliott> imo 428 or 390
02:12:29 <elliott> `delquote 428
02:12:33 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
02:12:38 <elliott> @tell ais523 sorry get out of the ay bug im writing an important message
02:12:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:12:42 <monqy> ok im actually starting to be bothered by the lack of spaces after <s help
02:12:45 <elliott> @tell ais523 sorry
02:12:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:12:50 <monqy> i need to fix this in some way
02:13:01 <monqy> (help)
02:13:08 <shachaf> monqy: I hate spaces after <s. :-(
02:13:08 <elliott> monqy: replace the <>s with {}s "it'll burn in a different way"
02:13:27 <elliott> monqy: imo just set them to background colour
02:13:27 <shachaf> "< nick>"s are the devil.
02:13:30 <elliott> who needs to see the <>s
02:13:30 <monqy> maybe i'll just use nospaces until i get used to it
02:13:43 <elliott> shachaf: do you hate coloured nicks too
02:13:44 <monqy> elliott: they're almost the background colour
02:13:48 <elliott> like where the nicks are coloured based on their text
02:13:50 <elliott> that upsets me
02:13:56 <elliott> i dont mind if other people use it
02:13:57 <shachaf> elliott: Are you calling me an IRC racist. :-(
02:13:59 <elliott> but it upsets me
02:14:36 <shachaf> I can't be racist, I use so much Unicode!
02:14:55 <shachaf> Some of it even non-ASCII Unicode.
02:15:03 <elliott> is any of it big endian
02:15:53 <shachaf> My IRC client doesn't support that. :-(
02:16:23 <shachaf> (Really, something in the IRC->me translation is messing up non-BMP Unicode characters.)
02:17:32 <zzo38> If you don't like that then change it
02:18:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you racist too?
02:19:15 <zzo38> I try not to be, but since I use language it makes me a little bit racist anyways
02:19:36 <shachaf> ^style
02:19:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:19:39 <shachaf> ^style discworld
02:19:39 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
02:19:55 <shachaf> fungot < sourbot_ :'(
02:19:56 <fungot> shachaf: ' ah?' said nanny. " it's you, son. you're too skinny. i've seen these little stones around, too.
02:20:46 <shachaf> ^style irc
02:20:47 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
02:20:49 <shachaf> fungot
02:20:50 <fungot> shachaf: that's a good question for the plt mailing list. there the only ones that that could be a fnord to run the
02:22:54 <shachaf> fungot
02:22:55 <fungot> shachaf: this is all related to sigsegv?) if you didn't operate on text representations and particular character sets?
02:22:58 <shachaf> fungot
02:22:59 <fungot> shachaf: so i was wondering why all my applications had become slow on old computers that use dimms? my taskbar just moved to our nation's grand capital, and the
02:23:18 <shachaf> my taskbar just moved to our nation's grand capital, and the
02:24:22 <shachaf> kmc: You would enjoy #haskell currently.
02:24:25 <shachaf> 19:21 < lambdabot> Einskell says: Make everything as monad as possible, but not monadder.
02:24:29 <shachaf> 19:23 < JoeyA> Monad monad monad monad monad monad.
02:24:31 <shachaf> And such.
02:25:49 <kmc> -_-
02:26:13 <kmc> i bet some of these IOCCC entries would be more comprehensible after a run through a C compiler and decompiler
02:26:36 <kmc> i bet this would be a lot more useful than the standard source-level prettifiers
02:26:43 <ion> Which decompilers suck the least?
02:26:53 <shachaf> The standard source-level prettifier probably wouldn't be *that* bad.
02:27:15 <kmc> shachaf: indent(1) makes a total hash of most of them
02:27:26 <kmc> the guidelines basically say that if indent makes your code look ok, don't bother submitting
02:27:48 <shachaf> I was thinking of something smarter than indent(1).
02:27:56 <elliott> kmc: have you seen Gregor's?
02:27:58 <elliott> also, try astyle, perhaps
02:28:11 <kmc> maybe i should look at LLVM output from clang
02:28:11 <shachaf> E.g. renaming variables, expanding #defines
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02:28:26 <kmc> shachaf: yeah, that usually doesn't help too much either
02:28:33 <elliott> indent just chokes on a lot of perfectly ok code IME
02:28:56 <kmc> you really want stuff like dead code elimination and reordering big chains of , and ?: operators into saner sequential/conditional control flow
02:29:03 <kmc> which is why I think a pass through a proper compiler might help
02:29:08 <ion> IME is Finnish for SUCK.
02:29:21 <shachaf> Fair enough.
02:29:34 <shachaf> Perhaps just looking at the disassembled output would be enough.
02:29:53 <kmc> the one i'm looking at now (2001/herrmann2) in particular has a *ton* of dead code
02:30:09 <kmc> more specifically, side-effect-free expressions to the left of ,
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02:30:26 <kmc> well, it also depends on whether you just want to understand how the program works, or also how it's obfuscated
02:30:49 <kmc> yeah i saw gregor's entry
02:30:51 <kmc> good stuff
02:30:56 <kmc> i didn't dig into it yet
02:31:45 <shachaf> I like how in JavaScript (1,foo) can be a different value from (foo).
02:31:49 <kmc> really?
02:32:04 <shachaf> No. I don't *really* like it.
02:32:13 <kmc> :D
02:32:15 <kmc> shachaf++
02:32:38 <elliott> I'm so cool I saw Gregor's entry BEFORE IT WAS SUBMITTED.
02:32:53 <shachaf> kmc: http://perfectionkills.com/global-eval-what-are-the-options/
02:35:13 <shachaf> Oh, this explains a JS annoyance of mine, actually.
02:35:26 <shachaf> You can't say var foo = console.log.
02:35:45 <shachaf> Previously I was just using var foo = function(x) { console.log(x); }
02:35:57 <shachaf> But I guess you can var foo = console.log.bind(console).
02:35:59 <shachaf> ...Or something.
02:36:35 <elliott> yes, that's correct
02:36:39 <elliott> the bind one, that is
02:36:45 <shachaf> Right.
02:37:14 <shachaf> It's not so much "this explains" as "I just thought about what could actually be causing it and came to this conclusion".
02:38:27 <elliott> SO question: "Can Haskell pretend to be a database, and if so, how?"
02:39:09 <zzo38> What do you mean by that?
02:39:31 <kmc> ln -s /usr/bin/ghc /usr/bin/mysql
02:39:49 <elliott> monqy: hmm, what's that "two planes at once" message
02:39:59 <monqy> phase shift
02:40:04 <monqy> it's free evasion
02:40:05 <monqy> i forgot i had it
02:40:09 <zzo38> "Can Haskell pretend to be a database" This question does not seem to even make sense?????
02:40:22 <elliott> zzo38: indeed
02:40:58 <zzo38> OK, Famicompo Mini 8 is now finished and available for download.
02:41:13 <shachaf> Free evasion a = a | evasion (free evasion a)
02:41:30 <elliott> i think you mean Free
02:41:43 <shachaf> My language is case insensitive.
02:42:39 <shachaf> Did you know Noël Coward was born in the 19th century?
02:42:59 <shachaf> @quote
02:42:59 <lambdabot> synx says: webdev is like doing one of those stupid little kids toys where you fit the circle block into the circle hole
02:43:12 <shachaf> I don't get it.
02:43:46 <kmc> fare evasion?
02:44:41 <kmc> shachaf: Did you know that different kinds of citrus tree can be easily grafted onto each other?
02:44:49 <shachaf> The problem with fare evasion is that it's unfare.
02:44:56 <kmc> you can have a single tree which grows oranges on some branches, lemons on others, limes on others
02:45:16 <shachaf> kmc: Yes! Well, I knew it about some specific cases, at least.
02:45:18 <kmc> this is industrially important too
02:45:53 <kmc> cause you can graft a branch which grows the kind of fruit you want onto a tree that's of a variety that's better at being a tree
02:46:28 <shachaf> Isn't this how most oranges are grown, or something?
02:46:39 <kmc> i've heard as much
02:46:58 <shachaf> Seedless oranges, I suppose.
02:47:09 <zzo38> Do you like the GenRandom I have written for the random generators or is there a better way?
02:48:20 <shachaf> I wish humans could be grafted.
02:48:33 <zzo38> Onto trees or onto humans?
02:48:34 <quintopia> at least they can be grifted
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02:49:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Ontohu mans.
02:49:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:56:28 <zzo38> Famicompo mini vol.8 has some multi-track files, unlike the others.
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03:03:02 <shachaf> Ugh, Linux now uses the term "x32".
03:03:14 <elliott> noooo
03:03:17 <shachaf> Admittedly it uses it for something different from "32-bit x86".
03:03:19 <elliott> oh
03:03:20 <elliott> that's X32
03:03:25 <elliott> totally different
03:03:33 <shachaf> Oh.
03:03:44 <elliott> capital x
03:03:45 <elliott> not abominable
03:03:47 <shachaf> Remember the bit about my language being case-insensitive?
03:04:38 <shachaf> reMEMBeR thE bIT aBoUt my LanGuAgE bEINg casE-iNseNSitIVe?
03:04:55 <shachaf> ^rainbow reMEmbEr THE BIT abOut mY LAngUAGe being caSE-InSeNsItive?
03:04:55 <fungot> reMEmbEr THE BIT abOut mY LAngUAGe being caSE-InSeNsItive?
03:08:13 <shachaf> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
03:09:45 <kmc> yeah x32 ABI is in Linux 3.4
03:10:57 <kmc> 32-bit pointers in native x86-64 long mode
03:11:59 <elliott> monqy: i'm arguing this badly :(
03:12:13 <shachaf> elliott: arguing what :(
03:12:57 <zzo38> edwardk is not on, a few days ago I was asking about fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower and said it doesn't work for (Density []) but actually [] is not even a comonad, it lacks extract and doesn't follow the law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate
03:13:53 <shachaf> That depends on your definition of duplicate!
03:14:30 <shachaf> According to http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/category-extras/0.53.5/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Density.html , the argument to Density just needs to be a functor.
03:14:36 <zzo38> But the fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower does seem to work with actually comonads and seems to be the law for homomorphism
03:15:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually the argument to Density can be anything; it does not even have to be a functor. But Density is also a comonad transformer, and Codensity is also a monad transformer even though the argument to Codensity can also be anything.
03:17:10 <elliott> monqy: why did you argue for the bad thing :(
03:17:19 <monqy> huh?
03:17:24 <elliott> multiple at a time
03:17:50 <monqy> the extend to which i argued for it is saying one at a time would be ridiculous
03:17:56 <monqy> just imagine how ridiculous it would be
03:17:57 <shachaf> least common multiple at a time
03:18:06 <elliott> monqy: it wouldn't!
03:18:11 <monqy> it would
03:18:17 <monqy> cf v5
03:18:24 <monqy> it would be the most ridiculousest
03:19:00 <zzo38> shachaf: How do you mean, depends on your definition of duplicate? What are you saying depends on that? Only certain definitions are correct to follow the comonad laws (which are just dual to the monad laws)
03:20:01 <shachaf> zzo38: According to you, none of them follow the comonad laws. :-)
03:20:14 <shachaf> But you didn't give a definition of duplicate, so how can you say that it doesn't follow the law?
03:20:40 <monqy> anyway the proper way to handle it is not having upstairs. i'm gone for a while so have fun w/ yr argument "ha ha"
03:21:52 <zzo38> shachaf: None of what follow the comonad laws? duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate is mentioned in the documentation
03:22:25 <shachaf> You said "[] is not even a comonad, it lacks extract and doesn't follow the law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate"
03:22:28 <shachaf> What's duplicate?
03:22:39 <zzo38> duplicate is the dual to join
03:23:02 <zzo38> Monad have return and join, comonad have extract dual to return and duplicate dual to join
03:23:02 <elliott> zzo38: shachaf is asking what definition of duplicate you are using for [].
03:23:19 <zzo38> I am using the one that comes with it.
03:23:37 <shachaf> You just said [] isn't a comonad.
03:23:42 <zzo38> But since there is no extract for [] it is not a comonad anyways so it doesn't count
03:23:43 <shachaf> Where does duplicate come from?
03:23:43 <elliott> zzo38: what one
03:23:52 <elliott> oh wait
03:23:56 <elliott> shachaf: duplicate _is_ defined for [] in the comonad package
03:23:59 <elliott> Extend is a different class
03:24:05 <shachaf> It is?
03:24:07 <shachaf> Oh.
03:24:11 <shachaf> That's silly.
03:26:04 <zzo38> The law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate is mentioned for Comonad, not Extend, but ComonadTrans class method lower is with something having Extend class, not Comonad.
03:26:45 <shachaf> cowmonad
03:32:22 <zzo38> But is fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower supposed to be the law for homomorphism?
03:35:28 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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04:42:26 <zzo38> I have five days to figure out part of the strategy for the situation in Dungeons&Dragons game, and I have some ideas. I may use Correspond spell to call the chancellor, but he will probably be able to recognize me and I do not know what things to say. I try to lead him into a trap. In case he comes and then tries to hide, I have already considered that and know what to do about that.
04:44:54 <zzo38> I may need one or two scrolls of Locate Creature (I already have Locate Object).
05:25:29 <oklofok> "elliott it was still hideous even then!" evil
05:25:39 <elliott> oklofok: waht
05:27:30 <oklofok> i _thought_ you said that you have used monospaced font on irc and it was still hideous
05:27:39 <oklofok> but i guess that would've been too silly to be true
05:28:46 -!- ellisonch has joined.
05:28:52 <elliott> it was < foo> that was hideous
05:30:22 -!- ellisonch has quit (Client Quit).
05:44:26 <zzo38> Then don't use < foo> if you dislike it
05:45:23 <elliott> the problem is other people using it
05:46:08 <Sgeo> What is < foo>?
05:46:45 <shachaf> An esoteric programming language, of course.
05:47:28 <Sgeo> Oh, < foo> as in how some client shows nicks on IRC?
05:47:30 <Sgeo> I assume?
05:47:32 -!- augur has joined.
05:47:34 <Sgeo> And that space is annoying?
05:48:04 <elliott> yes
05:48:19 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%3C%20foo%3E
05:49:26 <Sgeo> Which client?
05:49:33 <Sgeo> shachaf, too bad that link doesn't work
05:49:47 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo exists
05:50:24 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo%20exists
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05:56:12 <quintopia> i use < nick> but i try to delete the space when copypasta into channels
05:57:28 <monqy> gross
05:57:35 <monqy> either keep the space or don't use < nick>!!!
05:57:46 <shachaf> My IRC client shows < nick>.
05:57:54 <shachaf> I usually delete it when I copy into a channel.
05:57:55 <elliott> shachaf: is it irssi
05:57:58 <elliott> you can fix that
05:58:00 <elliott> ask monqy!
05:58:03 <shachaf> hi monqy
05:58:06 <shachaf> how do i fix that
05:58:15 <monqy> ask elliott
05:58:22 <shachaf> elliott: help
05:58:30 <monqy> oh it's
05:58:31 <monqy> 19:08:23 show_nickmode_empty = OFF
05:58:36 <monqy> that must be it
05:58:50 <zzo38> When I copy to a channel I will only quote the part which is necessary to quote
05:59:02 <shachaf> Someone say something!
05:59:06 <shachaf> Oh, I just did.
05:59:17 <shachaf> Hmm.
05:59:19 <monqy> hm
05:59:21 <monqy> h
05:59:23 <monqy>
05:59:23 <shachaf> What if someone becomes an op?
05:59:28 <monqy> then ther'es a @
05:59:33 <shachaf> Will their lines stop a-lining?
05:59:35 <Sgeo> We are worms we're the best and we've come to win the war
05:59:36 <monqy> yes
05:59:40 <monqy> no mor a-lining
05:59:41 <shachaf> monqy: That's the devil. :-(
05:59:51 <monqy> :-(
05:59:55 <monqy> text doesnt really align anyway
06:00:02 <monqy> if you dont make it align
06:00:02 <shachaf> I'd rather have a space before the <
06:00:04 <elliott> shachaf: turn off the @ display then
06:00:06 <shachaf> To keep it consistent.
06:00:08 <elliott> it's "stupid", say experts
06:00:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, clearly you should join #shachaf and see
06:00:18 <shachaf> elliott: That's the devil too. :-(
06:00:32 <shachaf> Sgeo: I expect you just joined that channel so that I won't be an op in it?
06:00:40 <shachaf> What do you know!
06:00:55 <Sgeo> I opped you before you left...
06:01:32 <Sgeo> BRB
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06:02:22 <zzo38> How many different alignments of IRC messages are there?
06:02:27 <Sgeo> back
06:02:34 <Sgeo> shachaf, I left #shachaf
06:02:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: So did I!
06:03:02 -!- augur has joined.
06:03:05 <shachaf> I joined after you joined and left before you left.
06:03:23 <shachaf> It's like an shachaf Sgeo #shachaf sandwich!
06:05:35 * Sgeo can't wait to eat food today
06:05:36 <Sgeo> >.>
06:05:41 <monqy> <.<
06:06:21 <shachaf> ∧.∧
06:06:37 <lambdabot> ∨.∨
06:07:07 <quintopia> <y3di> https://twitpic.com/show/large/9nild1 -- guess God really does use lisp
06:07:19 -!- Taneb has joined.
06:07:21 <lambdabot> ⊂.⊂.⊂.⊂ombo breaker
06:07:23 <Taneb> Hello!
06:07:26 <shachaf> lambdabot: :-(
06:15:30 <oklofok> "elliott it was < foo> that was hideous" ohh
06:16:26 <oklofok> _why_ is the space there in some clients?
06:16:43 <kmc> cause if you're an op it shows as <@foo>
06:16:45 <elliott> oklofok: because @ goes there
06:16:46 <elliott> if they're an op
06:16:47 <elliott> it's stupid
06:16:48 <elliott> stuuuupid
06:16:50 <shachaf> oklofok: To make it align with "<+foo>" and "<@foo>", I assume.
06:16:56 <kmc> elliott, shachaf: beaten
06:17:02 <elliott> :'(
06:17:04 <shachaf> kmc: :'(
06:17:05 <elliott> creys
06:17:05 <shachaf> GRR
06:17:09 <kmc> 8D
06:17:12 <oklofok> ah yes, come to think of it, i have realized that multiple times.
06:17:12 <shachaf> <elliott> shachaf: beaten
06:17:33 <monqy> it's the status slot, where the status symbol goes, and empty status slot is a space
06:17:39 <monqy> "more viewpoints"
06:17:43 <monqy> "thanks monqy"
06:17:44 <shachaf> monqy++
06:17:59 <shachaf> "i'm setting show_nickmode_empty back to ON now"
06:18:03 <oklofok> oklofok: it's for @ and +
06:20:58 <elliott> shachaf: no you're terrible
06:21:36 <shachaf> elliott: Don't worry "i didn't really do it"
06:21:42 <elliott> thanks
06:21:44 <shachaf> I was lying. Which I guess makes me terrible. :-(
06:21:49 <monqy> :-(
06:21:50 <shachaf> Except it was in quotation marks.
06:22:07 <shachaf> ^rainbow quotation marks
06:22:07 <fungot> quotation marks
06:22:12 <shachaf> That's a depressing rainbow.
06:22:20 <itidus21> <elkng> ()ing with portals. Now you're think()
06:22:26 <zzo38> Why does it have to align?
06:22:34 <Sgeo> What happens if you're both
06:23:13 <shachaf> Both what?
06:23:17 <elliott> +ov
06:23:25 <monqy> only @ displays
06:24:06 <shachaf> elliott doesn't like < nick> because it symbolizes the non-existence of @
06:24:43 <itidus21> sorry bout that
06:25:27 <itidus21> oh i read that wrong
06:27:05 <itidus21> wiki has some info on @
06:27:14 <fizzie> The ^rainbow rainbow is slightly depressing partially because it doesn't go up to eleven, let alone 15; it only goes up to 9.
06:27:23 <itidus21> "The fact that there is no single word in English for the symbol has prompted some writers to use the French arobase[4] or Spanish arroba or to coin new words such as apserand and ampersat - but none of these has achieved wide currency.
06:27:38 <fizzie> Someone could fix it to use the same color ordering as
06:27:40 <fizzie> ^rainbow2
06:27:40 <fungot> ...too much output!
06:28:13 <kmc> aspergand
06:28:32 <shachaf> Does = secretly mean ⊆?
06:29:53 <itidus21> i hope one day @ has it's own wikipedia page
06:30:24 <shachaf> Mathematicians overload way too much.
06:30:34 <shachaf> if = means ⊆, does (+) mean liftM2 (+)?
06:31:02 <shachaf> (In Set.)
06:32:30 <monqy> I too hope one day @ has it's own wikipedia page
06:33:07 <shachaf> SPOILERS: IT ALREADY DOES
06:33:08 <shachaf> [[@]]
06:33:16 <shachaf> hi @
06:33:18 <shachaf> hat
06:34:01 <shachaf> @-hat: ̂@
06:34:01 <lambdabot> I know nothing about @.
06:34:14 <shachaf> thambdabot
06:34:33 <Madoka-Kaname> ^show rainbo2
06:34:34 <kmc>
06:34:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
06:34:34 <Madoka-Kaname> ^show rainbow2
06:34:35 <fungot> ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(█)S:^):^
06:37:49 <itidus21> shachaf: i think that it's a good thing when you don't have to have much information to use a piece of a language
06:40:13 <itidus21> in the case of a function or procedure i think it's nice when a summary is good enough
06:41:21 <itidus21> this is probably not actually relevant
06:42:43 <fizzie> It would be the funniest if "/nick @foo" would give you ops on every channel you're on. (And double-ops where you already had some.)
06:43:10 <elliott> fizzie: needs a backspace before the @
06:43:12 <elliott> to overwrite the space
06:43:50 <itidus21> it would also be funny if "/nick @foo" was a backdoor password into most login screens
06:44:43 <itidus21> but i should stop re-peddling jokes
06:47:07 <Sgeo> Just for IRC makes more sense
06:47:29 <Sgeo> Idiopathic autoreferent
06:47:45 <Sgeo> ^^message I got when I tried to /nick to @Sgeo
06:51:31 <fizzie> "Erroneous Nickname", says the server.
06:52:19 <fizzie> Boringly.
06:55:18 * Sgeo did it on a different server
06:55:19 <Sgeo> >.>
06:55:58 <shachaf> Sergeant Eo
06:56:34 <monqy> <.<
06:58:20 <elliott> v.v
06:59:01 <shachaf> v∨
07:01:10 <elliott> v
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08:33:35 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2AeSsOcJv4 This... Should not work.
08:34:29 <pikhq> (Daft Punk, "Around the World", orchestral. Arrangement by Walt Ribeiro)
08:38:08 <elliott> this is going to be one of those shitty basically-just-a-midi-version-run-through-a-vst things isn't it
08:38:13 <elliott> yes it is
08:38:37 <elliott> ok its not as bad as i was expecting
08:39:10 <pikhq> Yeah, I was expecting utter ear-rape.
08:39:16 <pikhq> Why I clicked I don't know.
08:39:32 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:39:43 <pikhq> Clearly it killed elliott.
08:58:11 <Sgeo> Vorpal doesn't play BZFlag, does he?
08:58:20 <Sgeo> There was someone, with the name... AnSomething
08:58:31 <Sgeo> I forgot what the something was, but I was thinking Vorpal
08:58:56 <Sgeo> And someone else, who apparently has played BZFlag for a very long time, claimed that that person used cheats. (Claimed this after that person was offline)
08:59:41 <monqy> anmaster?
08:59:53 <Taneb> ^quote not markov
08:59:58 <Taneb> `quote not markov
09:00:02 <Taneb> wrong symbol
09:00:07 <HackEgo> 626) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
09:01:41 <itidus21> scary
09:02:02 <Sgeo> monqy, right, AnMaster is Vorpal, but I don't remember if the name I saw in BZFlag was AnMaster or something else
09:02:23 <Sgeo> And if it was AnMaster, it could be a coincidence
09:03:03 <pikhq> There can't be that many people playing BZFlag though.
09:03:09 <pikhq> ... Or caring enough to cheat for that matter.
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09:36:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I don't play BZFlag
09:36:09 <Sgeo> Ah, ok
09:36:14 <Vorpal> I know it is a game, that is all
09:36:19 <Vorpal> I don't even remember what type of game
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09:36:39 <elliott> holy shit
09:37:03 <Vorpal> what happened?
09:37:05 <elliott> look at what i get when loading http://thepiratebay.se/:
09:37:07 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZHU2bg
09:40:01 <Taneb> elliott, government's told all the ISP's to block Pirate Bay
09:40:07 <Taneb> Try switching DNS
09:40:55 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17894176
09:44:03 <pikhq> Or https://tpb.pirateparty.org.uk/
09:44:36 <fizzie> elliott: Did you choose "yes" or "no"?
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10:46:41 <Sgeo> I love how both yes and no are ambiguous answers to that question
10:47:12 <Taneb> So's "elephant"
10:53:54 <Gregor> "Elephant" isn't ambiguous, just irrelephant.
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11:16:04 <Sgeo> oliphuant
11:16:45 <Sgeo> Was going to say not a typo, but the source I took that name from has a persistent typo
11:16:55 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/pieces.10s.html
11:17:00 <Sgeo> Search for oliphuant
11:17:06 <Sgeo> Then click the link to Oliphuant
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11:47:10 <Sgeo> el
11:47:17 <Sgeo> Neither elliott nor PH are here
11:47:30 <Taneb> That does happen occasionalyl
11:47:34 <Taneb> I am here
11:47:36 <Sgeo> @tell elliott Tube Trap changed around, so now water rises at Sudden Death
11:47:36 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:47:46 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover Tube Trap changed around, so now water rises at Sudden Death
11:47:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:48:05 <Taneb> Aww, now I want to play GIRP
11:49:02 <Sgeo> GIRP?
11:50:08 <Deewiant> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
12:48:05 <Sgeo> http://www1.reocities.com/SiliconValley/drive/2069/SimCity/SC3KNewsTicker.html
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13:24:55 <Phantom__Hoover> @messages?
13:24:55 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
13:25:22 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, you have excessive underscores
13:26:00 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm Phantom_Hoover's evil twin.
13:26:06 <Taneb> Aaaah!
13:26:31 <Taneb> You... don't seem that evil
13:26:51 <Phantom__Hoover> And in a way, isn't that the most evil thing of all?
13:27:02 <Taneb> No
13:27:05 <Taneb> Not really
13:28:40 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, you'd have messages if you had one underscore
13:28:51 <Sgeo> @messages Phantom_Hoover
13:28:51 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
13:28:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
13:28:54 <Sgeo> Worth a shot
13:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> @messages?
13:28:55 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry i dont know what tube trap is
13:29:49 <Sgeo> Scheme for Worms: Armageddon
13:29:56 <Sgeo> I played it with either you or elliott, I forgot which
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13:37:08 <Sgeo> `welcome david_werecat
13:37:12 <HackEgo> david_werecat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:12:12 <oklofok> where's oerjan :(
14:13:09 <oklofok> we found a topological space which is countable and not first-countable, and the 5 (out of 143) spaces in counterexamples in topology which are countable but not first-countable share almost none of its properties
14:13:23 <oklofok> (we found it by accident, it was supposed to be a really nice space :()
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14:38:26 <itidus21> i have always classified worms and lemmings as pixel terraforming games, but not by that name
14:38:44 <itidus21> theres very few such games notable in that style i think
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15:48:15 <Gregor> "Palindromes are rasemordnilap!"
15:59:01 <oklofok> the joke is that's a palindrome
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16:00:50 <Gregor> And yet NOÖNE has acknowledged my BRILLIANT joke in the /topic :(
16:02:43 <ais523> it's not /that/ brilliant
16:02:43 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:03:14 <ais523> @ask elliott ?
16:03:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:05:33 <Gregor> ais523: :'(
16:07:28 <olsner> Gregor: what is the brilliant joke?
16:08:07 <Gregor> ... the one in the /topic.
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16:31:52 <andkerosine> Does anybody know off the top of their head if I've accidentally made a clone? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Headsecks
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16:34:31 <Gregor> andkerosine: You want the category "Brainfuck derivatives", not "Brainfuck equivalents"
16:35:03 <Gregor> Or maybe both, but the latter is barely-used and probably shouldn't exist (elliott?)
16:36:26 <andkerosine> It doesn't deviate from Brainfuck in any meaningful way...
16:36:28 <Deewiant> andkerosine: You mention ignoring values 8 or 9 modulo 8, but those are respectively 0 and 1 modulo 8...
16:36:40 <andkerosine> 0 % 8 == 0
16:36:46 <Deewiant> 8 % 8 == 0
16:37:09 <andkerosine> I'm sure you've misinterpreted.
16:38:00 <Deewiant> I'm sure that 8 % 8 == 0. Maybe I have misinterpreted the article, though.
16:38:50 <andkerosine> Well, yes, that's obviously what I meant. I wasn't questioning your ability to do arithmetic
16:39:17 <Gregor> andkerosine: Hm hm hm, I misunderstood slightly, you're right. Still, probably everything in the latter should additionally be in the former.
16:39:36 <andkerosine> Fair enough.
16:39:59 <andkerosine> "each character of the source code is interpreted as its ordinal value modulo 8"
16:40:00 <Gregor> But I don't know what I'm talking about, trust elliott's opinion if he chooses to appear.
16:40:06 <andkerosine> "characters for which a value of 8 or 9 is produced"
16:40:23 <andkerosine> The "produced" bit in the latter pretty clearly refers to the former, I'd say.
16:41:18 <Deewiant> Yes, and I don't see how you get anything other than the range [0,7] when you take positive integers modulo 8.
16:41:27 <andkerosine> Precisely!
16:42:03 <Deewiant> So the statement is meaningless and just there to confuse?
16:42:05 <andkerosine> Or... heh, whoops. I suppose it could be worded a bit better. My apologies for hastiness.
16:42:30 <Deewiant> Any characters which are congruent to 8 modulo 8 are also congruent to 0 modulo 8, so they'll map to 0 when you take the remainder.
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16:46:03 <andkerosine> Which... will work as intended, I believe.
16:47:01 <andkerosine> At least, nothing suspect showed up during preliminary testing, but that could be a result of running them all through the converter.
16:47:14 <Deewiant> > ord ' ' `mod` 8
16:47:15 <lambdabot> 0
16:47:19 <Deewiant> Space is plus.
16:47:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't match with what I understand "silently ignored" to mean.
16:48:08 <andkerosine> Note that the line has been removed.
16:49:03 <Deewiant> What line?
16:49:10 <andkerosine> Yeah, never mind.
16:49:32 <andkerosine> Went to change it, saw I wasn't logged in, am login-banned, so switching browsers to change it now.
16:49:39 <andkerosine> The line about silently ignoring, obviously.
16:50:11 <Deewiant> Just asked to confirm since that sentence obviously wasn't removed. :-P
16:50:21 <ais523> andkerosine: what were you login-banned from?
16:51:12 <andkerosine> I reckon I need more coffee. Registered, forgot my password, tried to login five or six times, apparently too quickly. : /
16:51:34 <ais523> on Esolang?
16:51:51 <ais523> I thought it just put up a CAPTCHA when you did that, but maybe it's misconfigured
16:52:05 <itidus21> you probably don't need more coffee really
16:54:47 <andkerosine> ais523: Well, it does display a captcha, but answering it correctly seems to serve no function.
16:54:57 <ais523> huh
16:54:59 <andkerosine> itidus21: How do you mean? : )
16:55:31 <itidus21> andkerosine: it may have been your coffee in the first place which made you re-login so much
16:55:50 <itidus21> but then you may be right... i forget what programming feels like
16:56:19 <itidus21> ahh you weren't talking about programming -- I reckon I need more coffee.
16:56:33 <andkerosine> Well, this is certainly a strange place for you to have wound up. ; )
16:56:47 <ais523> andkerosine: I'm not convinced that switching browsers will work, anyway
16:57:01 <ais523> that sort of auto-ban, unfortunately I can't override; rebooting your router might help if you have a dynamic IP
16:57:19 <itidus21> One does not simply qwop into #esoteric
16:58:24 <andkerosine> ais523: For what it's worth, switching browsers worked...
16:58:30 <ais523> huh, hmm
16:58:42 <andkerosine> Double indecision.
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18:03:25 <nortti_> wtf is the topic about?
18:04:31 <olsner> nortti_: ask Gregor, it's some kind of joke apparently
18:04:43 <nortti_> ok
18:05:06 <nortti_> Gregor: wtf is the topic about?
18:05:10 <kmc> presumably it's a joke about austria and australia
18:08:43 <nortti_> is there a limut how many lines can you send per minute before you get kicked out for flooding on freenode?
18:08:51 <nortti_> *limit
18:10:00 <Gregor> You all (except for kmc) suck at jokes.
18:12:38 <nortti_> well I didn't know that austria was named that in english and I couldn't figure out how someone could mistake switzerland could be confused with australia
18:12:59 <nortti_> -could mistake
18:14:27 <olsner> I think the joke is missing some alps in australia
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18:17:35 <olsner> (P.S. I'd just like to point out that I got the joke from the start)
18:19:12 <ais523> I got it immediately, but it isn't actually funny
18:19:30 <ais523> <nortti_> is there a limut how many lines can you send per minute before you get kicked out for flooding on freenode? <-- yes, also a limit to how fast you send lines before ops get annoyed and kick you
18:19:42 <olsner> ais523: exactly
18:19:47 <ais523> nortti_: what's austria called in your native language?
18:19:58 <nortti_> itävalta
18:20:09 <olsner> wow
18:20:25 <nortti_> eastrule is a crude literal translation
18:22:04 <olsner> I managed to confuse austria and switzerland for a while though, got to thinking that the swedish for austria was a lot weirder than it is
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18:22:37 <ais523> nortti_: hmm, not that far from the German name "Österreich"
18:23:21 <nortti_> I know. I expected english to have something similar
18:23:50 <olsner> austria probably means east kingdom in french or latin or whatever language that is
18:24:13 <ais523> "aust" is quite close to "east"
18:24:40 <olsner> could be a mangled form of österreich
18:25:30 <olsner> ah: The name "Austria" is a Latinization of Österreich, which was first recorded in the 12th century.
18:25:33 <olsner> This has led to much confusion as German Ost is "east", but Latin auster is "south".
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18:32:04 <nortti_> Ugh. Rube Goldberg would be proud of my shellscripts
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18:51:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: This just in: #esoteric has no sense of humor | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:54:55 <Taneb> Hello
18:55:13 <Taneb> That's funny
19:00:30 <nortti_> has anyone here used TWENEX (also known as TOPS-20)?
19:08:08 <nortti_> if not you should. sdf offers free shell account§ at twenex.org
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19:21:01 <nortti_> *www.twenex.org
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19:30:09 <Gregor> I don't trust any domain that doesn't resolve without www. ...
19:30:17 <Gregor> Even extra-www.org resolves.
19:31:18 <ais523> Gregor: wow, not only does www.org resolve, so does org.
19:31:55 <ais523> oh, that's probably Firefox automatically adding the www
19:32:05 <ais523> doesn't work in dig or w3m
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19:32:33 <Gregor> www.org is just a normal TLD, there's nothing interesting in the fact that it resolves *shrugs*
19:32:37 <coppro> chrome appears to resolve http://org/ to about:blank
19:32:48 <Gregor> Erm
19:32:49 <Gregor> *SLD
19:32:49 <pikhq_> Lame.
19:32:52 <coppro> and fails on other TLDs
19:33:14 <Taneb> Hello, elliott
19:33:16 <ais523> Gregor: well, org. resolving /would/ be interesting, but it doesn't :(
19:33:22 <elliott> hi Taneb
19:33:22 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:33:25 * ais523 wonders why people habitually omit the trailing dot on domain names
19:33:31 <elliott> ais523: http://ai./
19:33:32 <Gregor> ais523: Neener neener.
19:33:38 <ais523> elliott: I know
19:33:50 <coppro> ais523: because that is the convention
19:33:53 <ais523> but org. is much more major, and therefore having an A record would be more surprising
19:34:06 <elliott> 20:33 <lambdabot> ais523 asked 3h 30m 21s ago: ?
19:34:07 <elliott> ais523: hi
19:34:08 <coppro> also how do you participate in this conversation? I thought you filtered URLs
19:34:21 <coppro> ais523: and because domain names are no more ambiguous without the trailing dot
19:34:34 <ais523> I stopped filtering URLs ages ago
19:34:36 <ais523> hi elliott
19:34:46 <ais523> just didn't tell people in the hope they'd stop pinging me with them
19:35:07 <elliott> you did tell people
19:35:12 <ais523> oh, just didn't tell everyone
19:35:14 <ais523> I probably told elliott
19:35:49 <elliott> you told the channel, at least
19:37:00 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Headsecks‎; 16:24 . . (+2,800)‎ . . ‎Andkerosine (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Headsecks is born!)
19:37:05 <elliott> noooo
19:37:12 <ais523> elliott: he came here and asked if it had been done before
19:37:20 <elliott> what, a brainfuck derivative?
19:37:25 <ais523> that particular BF derivative
19:37:35 <ais523> that's showing a surprising amount of genre knowledge :)
19:37:43 <elliott> unfortunately, there are too many BF derivatives for one to ever repeat
19:37:47 <elliott> *possible BF
19:38:08 <elliott> ais523: we should put up an editnotice with a box saying "Is your language a brainfuck derivative? Please consider something more creative."
19:38:14 <elliott> for new pages
19:38:19 <ais523> haha
19:38:25 <ais523> sadly, it should come up before people even come to the site
19:38:34 <elliott> maybe we should buy ads
19:38:38 <ais523> because normally they design the language first, /then/ come here to document it
19:38:39 <elliott> on the web, billboards, etc.
19:39:44 <elliott> 09:44:36: <fizzie> elliott: Did you choose "yes" or "no"?
19:39:46 <elliott> fizzie: I chose "no".
19:39:52 <elliott> CAN'T TAME ME
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19:40:16 <elliott> ais523: Did you know your ISP DNS is probably censored now? :(
19:40:31 <ais523> DNS? I thought it was using CleanFeed
19:40:33 <ais523> (and yes)
19:40:40 <elliott> 09:37:05: <elliott> look at what i get when loading http://thepiratebay.se/:
19:40:40 <elliott> 09:37:07: <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZHU2bg
19:40:55 <ais523> at least, IIRC the court order was "and don't just change the DNS, block it properly", but in more legal language
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19:41:19 <ais523> there are almost certainly hundreds of ways round it, ofc
19:41:39 <elliott> well, Taneb said
19:41:40 <elliott> 09:40:01: <Taneb> elliott, government's told all the ISP's to block Pirate Bay
19:41:40 <elliott> 09:40:07: <Taneb> Try switching DNS
19:41:51 <elliott> 09:44:03: <pikhq> Or https://tpb.pirateparty.org.uk/
19:41:55 <elliott> must just be DNS, then, since that link works
19:42:18 <ais523> does it resolve to the same IP, I wonder?
19:42:30 <elliott> it resolves to the pirate bay
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19:43:41 * ais523 feels vindictive at Facebook's share price
19:43:48 <elliott> 16:34:31: <Gregor> andkerosine: You want the category "Brainfuck derivatives", not "Brainfuck equivalents"
19:43:48 <elliott> 16:35:03: <Gregor> Or maybe both, but the latter is barely-used and probably shouldn't exist (elliott?)
19:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: The latter is for things like Ook!.
19:43:58 <ais523> nice to see the shares are doing badly; it's pretty rare for a company's share price to fall from the IPO
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19:44:21 <nortti_> well actually twenex.org resolves but it is a different machine (PDP-10)
19:44:24 <ais523> Gregor: BF equivalents is for things where all the commands map 1:1 to BF's, with nothing added or removed
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19:46:07 <elliott> oh well, I want to switch to another ISP anyway
19:46:36 <Taneb> elliott, TalkTalk haven't blocked it yet
19:46:37 <elliott> 16:36:26: <andkerosine> It doesn't deviate from Brainfuck in any meaningful way...
19:46:43 <elliott> ais523: this is a shocking level of self-awareness
19:46:55 <ais523> yes, that's what I was commenting on
19:46:57 <coppro> ais523: yeah, they deserved it
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19:47:37 <coppro> I wish I could buy GOOG now :(
19:47:42 <elliott> 16:54:47: <andkerosine> ais523: Well, it does display a captcha, but answering it correctly seems to serve no function.
19:47:52 * ais523 wonders if andkerosine already got the brick ready
19:47:55 <elliott> coppro: so you could have stocks in the /other/ crappy social network?
19:48:05 <elliott> ais523: hmm, maybe our CAPTCHA is too hard
19:48:16 <ais523> elliott: I'm wondering if he got it right or wrong
19:48:18 <coppro> elliott: no, because they got hammered due to FB, and are bouncing back up.
19:48:21 <elliott> 16:57:01: <ais523> that sort of auto-ban, unfortunately I can't override; rebooting your router might help if you have a dynamic IP
19:48:28 <elliott> "serving no function" I bet means "displays another CAPTCHA"
19:48:31 <coppro> I can't buy since it would be insider trading, even though the impulse to buy isn't based on insider information.
19:48:33 <elliott> which is how it handles invalid entries
19:48:41 <elliott> (ConfirmEdit's UI is terrible...)
19:48:47 <ais523> coppro: you work for a social network?
19:48:48 <elliott> coppro: It was a: joke.
19:48:57 <elliott> ais523: he works for Google
19:49:02 <ais523> aha
19:49:13 <elliott> spam I just got:
19:49:36 <elliott> From: "Antelmo Alvarado García" (with the quotes)
19:49:37 <elliott> Subject: Re
19:49:38 <elliott>
19:49:41 <elliott> loan offer,reply back for more info.
19:49:44 <elliott> (that's it)
19:50:50 <elliott> 18:17:35: <olsner> (P.S. I'd just like to point out that I got the joke from the start)
19:50:51 <elliott> i also
19:50:56 <elliott> 18:19:12: <ais523> I got it immediately, but it isn't actually funny
19:50:57 <elliott> this
19:51:16 <elliott> 18:22:37: <ais523> nortti_: hmm, not that far from the German name "Österreich"
19:51:17 <elliott> ostrich
19:52:01 <elliott> heh, www.org is the W3C
19:52:01 <elliott> cute
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19:55:40 <nortti_> brainfuckxt.... why do people keep making brainfuck derivatives
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19:59:37 <elliott> ais523: [http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Kryptonx User:KryptonX]
19:59:38 <elliott> how absurd
19:59:54 <ais523> not everyone has to know wikisyntax
20:00:03 <ais523> also, note that that corresponds to a piped link, not a regular one
20:00:05 <elliott> they do
20:00:06 <elliott> == External resources ==
20:00:07 <elliott> * [[Brainfuck++|Brainfuck++ -- A Brainfuck extension]]
20:00:12 <ais523> oh dear
20:00:15 <ais523> perhaps it's an srlink
20:00:19 <elliott> srlink?
20:00:29 <ais523> see {{srlink}} on Wikipedia, I invented it
20:00:42 <ais523> it's for self-links that conceptually point to "Wikipedia" rather than "this site"
20:00:51 <elliott> ah
20:01:35 <elliott> "Articles about online communities may well discuss Wikipedia as an example, in a neutral tone, without specifically implying that the article in question is being read on—or is a part of—Wikipedia."
20:01:43 <elliott> I really love Wikipedia's self-reference policy.
20:01:56 <elliott> It makes the articles so much more fun to read.
20:03:03 <ais523> hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Template%3ASrlink&namespace=0 is quite an interesting list
20:03:22 <elliott> List of people associated with the Revolt of the Comuneros (transclusion) ‎ (links)
20:03:30 <elliott> I smell a misuse...
20:03:40 <elliott> wow that article cites answers.com
20:03:47 <ais523> ooh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WP_on_Getty_images_with_watermark.jpg is reasonably confusing
20:04:06 <elliott> ais523: it's used as an example on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud
20:04:08 <elliott> which is brilliant
20:04:14 <elliott> "An image of the Main Page of Wikipedia watermarked, claimed as copyrighted, and sold by Getty Images and Agence France-Presse. Wikipedia text is licensed CC-BY-SA 3.0 which requires the same or similar free license on all derivative works."
20:04:15 <ais523> I know, that's how I found it
20:04:34 <ais523> the best thing is the deletion notice, there's a raging debate as to whether it's copyvio or not
20:05:10 <elliott> ais523: I think it might be original enough to count
20:05:31 <elliott> you can see distortions from the screen, the browser chrome, the border of the laptop, the blankness behind it, and several watermarks
20:05:37 <elliott> and also it's rotated
20:05:45 <elliott> so I'd say it's probably a license violation
20:05:49 <ais523> apparently, the deletion discussion's been going since January
20:05:50 <elliott> and a copyvio
20:06:12 <ais523> my guess is that Wikipedia and Getty are copyvioing each other
20:06:18 <elliott> that doesn't surprise me, given that Commons is apparently seriously dysfunctional
20:06:25 <nortti_> brainfuckxt article: "make the language more powerful ... 100,000 ASCII Character slots"
20:06:36 <elliott> nortti_: it's more powerful in that it's sub-TC
20:06:42 <elliott> because there's only one level of loops
20:06:55 <elliott> ais523: btw, can you give your assessment as to the computational class of BrainfuckXT? FSA or LBA, I suspect
20:07:02 <elliott> I'm wikifying it and want to put it in a computational class category
20:07:14 <ais523> that'd mean actually reading the article
20:07:17 <ais523> do I /have/ to? :)
20:07:24 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuckXT
20:07:26 <elliott> yes :)
20:07:27 <ais523> let's go
20:07:58 <Sgeo> Wait
20:08:12 <elliott> ais523: "The image is a derivative of a CC-BY-SA image, so by the plain reading of the CC-BY-SA license must be (and is) licensed CC-BY-SA."
20:08:19 <ais523> hmm, we have infinite memory, but awkward control flow
20:08:20 <elliott> ais523: these people need to play nomic...
20:08:21 <Gregor> <elliott> nortti_: it's more powerful in that it's sub-TC <elliott> because there's only one level of loops // the interesting thing is that we don't need infinite levels of loops to simulate a UTM, so the question is, how many depths of loops renders it TC (OH GOD FANCY L)
20:08:27 <Sgeo> If Getty violated Wikimedia's terms, Wikimedia cannot then go use the illegally licensed image itself?
20:08:29 <ais523> elliott: that's not true; there's also the possibility that it's illegal
20:08:30 <elliott> SHALL but didn't
20:08:46 <elliott> ais523: indeed
20:08:50 <ais523> this is something that people keep getting wrong about the GPL, incidentally
20:08:51 <elliott> Sgeo: of course not, Getty hold the copyright to it; if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to license it as CC-BY-SA
20:08:55 <elliott> which is what they're required to do, of course
20:08:58 <ais523> it's commonly used to spread FUD
20:09:02 <Gregor> There's also the possibility of fair use, lest we forget.
20:09:10 <elliott> it's copyrighted to them and not released under any free license, so it's illegal for Wikimedia to use it
20:09:13 <ais523> elliott: I believe Getty and Wikimedia both hold the copyright to parts of it
20:09:15 <elliott> OTOH, Getty are also breaking the law
20:09:17 <elliott> but that's a separate matter
20:09:19 <ais523> as does whoever wrote the main page blurbs on the day in question
20:09:30 <elliott> Gregor: well...
20:09:35 <elliott> Gregor: I doubt you could use that under fair use
20:09:38 <elliott> you can hardly argue it's irreplacable
20:09:44 <elliott> I could make a similar image in 10 minutes
20:09:47 <Gregor> Probably not, but it's an angle of argument.
20:09:54 <elliott> Gregor: also, it's probably being misused as fair use
20:09:58 <elliott> it's being used to illustrate copyfraud
20:10:01 <elliott> rather than Wikipedia, or... computers
20:10:03 <ais523> actually, this is confusing; it has while and an if that can go inside it, but the tape is 100000 elements long, but it also supports arbitrary-length strings
20:10:09 <elliott> or photography at weird angles
20:10:14 <elliott> so it's being used for a sort of meta-use
20:10:21 <elliott> which is probably not OK fair use
20:10:29 <elliott> ais523: are you sure it supports arbitrary-length strings?
20:10:35 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: also, it's probably being misused as fair use // I actually meant fair use the other way, Getty may be able to argue free use.
20:10:39 <Gregor> Erm
20:10:41 <Gregor> *fair use
20:10:50 <ais523> elliott: there's no indication anywhere that the strings are bounded in length
20:10:56 <elliott> Gregor: err, hmm
20:10:59 <pikhq_> elliott: If it makes you feel better, that image is currently marked for deletion due to potential copy vio.
20:11:02 <elliott> that's interesting, but I don't know if it's true
20:11:05 <ais523> if the "indexing integer" has unlimited range, I think it's TC
20:11:07 <elliott> pikhq_: that's what we're discussing
20:11:07 <olsner> but... would a similar image really be a suitable example of copyfraud?
20:11:23 <elliott> ais523: if it's an indexing integer, presumably the maximum value is 100,000
20:11:24 <Gregor> elliott: Neither do I, I'm just saying it's a possible argument for Getty :)
20:11:26 <ais523> wait, no
20:11:36 <elliott> olsner: no, but that doesn't change the fact that Wikipedia are probably misusing it and so it doesn't count as fair use for them in the first place
20:11:43 <ais523> elliott: no, there's the tape ("ASCII slots"), which is 100000 characters long
20:11:54 <ais523> and also 30,000 "string slots" which hold arbitrary-length strings
20:12:08 <elliott> hmm
20:12:27 <ais523> wait, no, there's no way to read the value of a string or a character in a string, only to print it out
20:12:30 <ais523> that language has far too many print operators
20:13:34 <elliott> hmm, maybe i should tell dtsund he's probably violating the Crawl license
20:14:09 <nortti_> how?
20:14:23 <ais523> haha, Randall Munroe CC-by-saed exactly one panel of xkcd, so that Wikipedia could use it to illustrate the article
20:14:26 <elliott> he's importing commits from Stone Soup, but not attributing their authors
20:14:41 <Gregor> <ais523> haha, Randall Munroe CC-by-saed exactly one panel of xkcd, so that Wikipedia could use it to illustrate the article // lolwut? Which? Where?
20:14:45 <ais523> I always make sure to attribute the authors when importing in NetHack 4
20:14:50 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xkcd_philosophy.png
20:14:53 <elliott> actually
20:14:57 <elliott> why is he even making new commits?
20:14:58 <elliott> it's git
20:15:02 <elliott> he can just cherry-pick the commit
20:15:07 <elliott> and have git track the authorshi
20:15:08 <ais523> "just", hahahaha
20:15:08 <elliott> p
20:15:15 <elliott> ais523: oh shush, it's not that difficult
20:15:22 <ais523> it usually doesn't work
20:15:30 <elliott> anyway, maybe I won't bother telling him, probably nobody cares
20:15:35 <ais523> also, git doesn't track the authorship specially, just appends something to the commit message
20:15:52 <elliott> (but I feel bad about it)
20:16:27 <ais523> there are a few other CC-by-saed xkcd panels, mostly ones that refer to Wikipedia itself
20:16:36 -!- jobes has joined.
20:16:51 <Gregor> Whoaaaah, we have a visitor from the land of ipv6.
20:17:11 <elliott> `welcome jobes
20:17:14 <HackEgo> jobes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:17:15 <elliott> Are you from... the future?
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20:17:32 <jobes> hello
20:18:00 <nortti_> hi
20:18:29 <elliott> ais523: hmm, simply adding the authors of all the imported commits to a file in a new commit should be sufficient, right?
20:18:43 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:18:53 <elliott> good way to avoid giving legal advice
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20:30:28 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:30:39 <Sgeo> I want to give illegal advice, but how...
20:31:07 <Sgeo> I am a laywer and a doctor. I recommend taking your heart out and carving your will into it.
20:32:01 <elliott> ok
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20:35:02 <Sgeo> As a lawyer, I wholeheartedly recommend misrepresenting yourself as a lawyer.
20:35:30 <kmc> as your attorney i advise you to rent a very fast car with no top
20:41:16 <zzo38> Now I think this may be the proper way to define an improper religion: "who use deceptive recruitment practices and use advanced psychological manipulative techniques to reduce their followers to near-zombie state. They entrap followers within the group and destroy their ability to think logically."
20:41:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: It would probably be difficult to do anything if your heart has been removed, isn't it?
20:42:07 <Sgeo> I am high on SLEEP DEPRIVATION
20:42:20 <elliott> hi
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21:05:19 <elliott> OK, I'm terrified of mine and/or ais523's powers now.
21:23:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZHU2bg <-- I heard using google translate on the page usually works
21:23:37 <Vorpal> (if you are still looking for a solution)
21:24:08 <elliott> That sounds a lot more painful than just using a different DNS server or the alternate domain name... or not using TPB, which has been working fine for me.
21:24:12 <Vorpal> and with magnet links, there is no tracker to block
21:24:25 <Vorpal> elliott, ah okay, the google translate trick is for when the IP is blocked too
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21:44:12 <elliott> someone misusing the <cite> tag :(
21:46:04 <Vorpal> night
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22:05:28 <Gregor> Something very strange has happened ...
22:05:44 <Gregor> Either my sense of smell /markedly/ and inexplicably improved during the night between Saturday and Sunday,
22:05:57 <Gregor> or I'm having some kind of multi-day psychotic event in which I imagine that my sense of smell has markedly improved.
22:07:40 <Gregor> The fact that I mostly seem to smell something akin to the taste of rust, which I interpret to be blood, lends credence to the latter explanation.
22:08:17 <elliott> Gregor: Your fnarfitude is fnarfolving.
22:09:03 <elliott> Gregor: If it helps, blood is quite metallic for normal people, too :P
22:09:26 <Gregor> The point is that I don't think I should be smelling blood.
22:09:30 <Gregor> What with the lack of blood around me.
22:09:42 <elliott> Gregor: Blood is INSIDE you, man.
22:09:50 <elliott> You're fnarfing YOURSELF.
22:10:04 <Gregor> Uhh
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22:13:03 <Gregor> JESUS
22:13:10 <Gregor> My eye is burning
22:13:14 <Gregor> I just smelled mints
22:13:53 <elliott> Mmmmm
22:13:56 <elliott> Gregor: Mints smell lovely.
22:14:03 <elliott> They also taste lovely.
22:14:11 <elliott> They might clear up that rusty smell!
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22:19:24 <ion> Note to self: add to vocabulary: noöne
22:19:44 <elliott> "no-one" is an awful word
22:19:45 <elliott> say nobody
22:20:02 <Gregor> No, say nopony.
22:20:06 <Gregor> HAW HAW HAW *runs*
22:20:14 <ion> noöne looks even better (as in more awful).
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22:26:58 <madbr> p
22:27:06 <elliott> q
22:27:09 <ion> r
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22:27:40 <monqy> q
22:27:47 <elliott> p
22:27:53 <ion> q
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22:28:07 <madbr> ю
22:28:26 <ion> ʞ
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23:07:17 <zzo38> I think that if the tax brackets are 10% up to $50.00 and 20% up to $100.00, then if you earn $51.00 then the amount of tax you pay should be $5.20
23:08:20 <madbr> yeah that's how tax brackets work
23:08:28 <madbr> otherwise it would be totally braindead
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