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00:27:28 <pikhq_> git commit -m "Rewrote the entire thing."
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00:35:14 <Gregor> pikhq_: DOOD lies the first line of all your shell scripts is still the same.
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00:37:21 <quintopia> have your main() declarations changed? "{
00:39:02 <Sgeo_> *sigh* I'm going to download Multimedia Fusion 2
00:40:06 <Sgeo_> I just want to see the IWBTG source
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00:44:49 <BlueProtoman> Has anyone in here written a Brainfuck interpreter? I'd like to know how you handle nested loops. My code doesn't seem to do so, but I'm not sure why.
00:45:07 <Gregor> Has anyone in here NOT written a BF interpreter?
00:45:14 <elliott> try reading daniel b cristofani's
00:45:17 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i never have
00:45:29 <elliott> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/sbi.c
00:45:36 <oerjan> i guess i've translated bf to some esolangs
00:46:07 <oerjan> but that's compiling, at best
00:46:44 <BlueProtoman> Lemme show you my code for it. I've probably got some simple thing wrong.
00:46:55 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: did you get non-nested loops working, then?
00:47:10 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Yes, I've got a simple "Hello World!" program running.
00:47:21 <BlueProtoman> I'm not using the brace table method, since I don
00:47:30 <BlueProtoman> don't have time to figure out how to fix that right now.
00:48:17 <BlueProtoman> That's how I do it. I just use a stack and iterate through the characters until I find a matching ]. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?
00:48:46 <Sgeo_> Bah the trial is limited to 30 days
00:50:28 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: btw a stack is overkill, you just need a counter
00:51:01 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: But then aren't I limited to the range of an int?
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00:52:33 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: yes, but do you really have memory for a stack of sizeof(int) elements?
00:52:49 <elliott> sizeof(int) being 4 or 8 on common platforms :P
00:53:22 <oerjan> sorry, i mean maxint, i'm just sure what it's called in C(++)
00:53:52 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Point taken. OK, switched from stack to int64_t. Still not sure what's wrong with my loop, though.
00:54:17 <oerjan> anyway, any bignum implementation will work better than such a stack for the same amount of memory.
00:54:46 <oerjan> ...mind you you need room for the _program_ somewhere too :P
00:55:27 <BlueProtoman> http://ideone.com/YMbwL Here's where I am right now.
00:56:43 <pikhq_> BlueProtoman: To hit an *int* in your counter, you need to have 4 gigabytes of code.
00:57:00 <tswett> Ooh, you know what would be great?
00:57:13 <pikhq_> If you've got 4 gigabytes of Brainfuck to compile, cry.
00:57:39 <tswett> As everyone knows, 3 decibels is approximately a doubling, and 10 decibels is exactly a factor of 10.
00:57:44 <pikhq_> It's nearly 4 gigabytes too many.
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00:58:01 <tswett> What we need to do is define one "debibel" as a factor of 2^(1/3).
00:58:22 <tswett> Then 3 debibels will be exactly a doubling, and 10 debibels will be exactly a factor of 1,024, which is approximately 1,000.
00:58:57 <pikhq_> tswett: There's a much better unit to use.
00:59:36 <tswett> Well, yeah. A debibel is a third of a bit.
00:59:43 <BlueProtoman> Anyone have any idea why http://ideone.com/YMbwL doesn't handle nested loops?
00:59:50 <tswett> Which makes me want to create a programming language that has a "debibel shift left" operator.
01:00:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i think you may have an off-by-one error in where currentinstruction ends up
01:00:27 <tswett> Gee, I really like this. A programming language where all you can do is arithmetic, and severely limited arithmetic at that.
01:00:35 <tswett> And therefore, computation must be carried out through rounding error.
01:00:45 <oerjan> as in, you go _past_ the last [ or ], but should stop _at_ it
01:01:16 <pikhq_> Yeah, probably off-by-one.
01:01:46 <BlueProtoman> OK, so why should I stop at the ] rather than one past it?
01:02:14 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: because you still have currentinstruction being incremented outside the instruction[...] code, right?
01:02:55 <pikhq_> It'd work just fine if you were having the currentinstruction++ inside each instruction instead of up at your dispatch.
01:02:56 <BlueProtoman> School is getting in the way of learning; I'm most mentally alert in the late morning, when I'm in class.
01:03:33 <oerjan> the other direction (not stopping at [) is harmless, but causes you to do an extra instructions['['], i think
01:05:39 <oerjan> pikhq_: yeah but that would be duplication everywhere else
01:05:50 <BlueProtoman> Still not working...here's my code so far. http://ideone.com/N4GRI Is it always this annoying to be so analytical about my code, or would practice just make perfect?
01:06:04 <pikhq_> Mostly a matter of practice, TBH.
01:06:23 <pikhq_> BTW, though probably not *highly* efficient, I rather like your use of C++11 lambda there.
01:08:16 <BlueProtoman> Or is that a bunch of technical jazz I don't need to worry about right now?
01:08:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: you might want to add some debug print statements so you can see what bf commands your code actually tries to execute
01:08:24 <pikhq_> It probably doesn't matter too much.
01:08:35 <pikhq_> Very few things need stupidly-fast dispatch.
01:09:04 <BlueProtoman> Since I'm here, I might as well ask, would you guys have any advice for a future computer science major? I'm starting college this fall in a pretty good CS program.
01:09:58 <pikhq_> Rule #1 for being a good programmer: do it a lot.
01:10:00 <elliott> BlueProtoman: if they try to teach java, it's probably a bad sign
01:10:00 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: anyway i see nothing wrong with that part of your code now
01:10:34 <elliott> imo don't stop programming yourself, and learn new languages and such
01:10:43 <elliott> especially ones dissimilar to what you're being taught
01:10:52 <Gregor> elliott: Unfortunately, leaving out all the schools that teach Java first year leaves you with almost nothing.
01:11:07 <BlueProtoman> elliott: In what way is that bad? Unless you mean teaching more Java than CS.
01:11:09 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i might still be suspicious if currentinstruction is being incremented at the right time outside it, though.
01:11:40 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, Java is not a good language. CS programs that teach Java tend to teach a lot more "software engineering" type stuff than any CA, and have a tendency to do it badly.
01:11:45 <elliott> But yes, it's disappointingly common.
01:11:58 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Well, my program's heavy on projects that give me freedom, so I plan on putting a lot of love into what I make.
01:12:02 <elliott> Certainly not every single program that teaches Java in the first year is terrible throughout, but it's not ideal.
01:12:13 <pikhq_> Gregor: Leaving out schools that consider !Java to be a "hard" thing, rather than core classes, at least gets you to skip really bad schools, though.
01:12:35 <Gregor> pikhq_: Purdue teaches Java first semester, then C second semester.
01:12:49 <BlueProtoman> And of course I'm going to code. I code on my own time now, I will do so thus summer, I did for a project that was expected to be a PowerPoint.
01:13:06 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Also read SICP! (Disclaimer: I've never read SICP. But read it anyway.)
01:13:29 <quintopia> david_werecat: i think i can improve dreadnought
01:14:13 <david_werecat> I know by changing (-)*31 to (-)*29 I gain 3 points, but lost to one program.
01:14:53 <david_werecat> I know there are several other ways, but I'm interested to see what you think.
01:15:00 <elliott> Also hang out in #esoteric. That's the best way to ensure you never get anything done.
01:15:32 <MDude> On the wiki, I initially read DcScript as DrScript.
01:16:35 <BlueProtoman> What would you say makes a CS program "terrible throughout?"
01:17:01 <elliott> Teaching lots of Java and then doing C really badly and also being awful :P
01:17:11 <elliott> You'll probably know if it's bad.
01:17:19 <oerjan> elliott: add some php classes, right?
01:17:23 <pikhq_> elliott: Sgeo didn't know. :P
01:17:35 <elliott> pikhq_: I tend to assume people are not like Sgeo.
01:17:46 <elliott> This generally works out pretty well for me
01:17:50 <BlueProtoman> My school's actually well-ranked. It's not Caltech, but grads to go on to work at big companies.
01:18:23 <pikhq_> Which school, anyways?
01:18:26 <elliott> more protips: don't work for the nsa
01:18:47 <pikhq_> elliott: Can I ask why? (not that I'm likely to)
01:19:10 <elliott> BlueProtoman: augur went there! Or goes there. Or something. I'm not sure.
01:19:17 <elliott> I think he said they have a good CS program.
01:19:34 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't like it :P
01:21:05 <BlueProtoman> What was the course-load like? I originally wanted to do 18 credits a semester (since there's a lot I want to learn, even outside of CS), but now I'm not so sure.
01:29:29 <quintopia> david_werecat: i am changing it now, and i will test it and if it is better, i will let you change yours to it. if not, you can laugh at me.
01:30:07 <david_werecat> Okay, sounds like a good plan. If you do improve it, I'll give you a mention in the source code.
01:30:26 <elliott> quintopia: shouldn't you be working on your scoring :P
01:30:49 <quintopia> elliott: this is something i can do in a few minutes without much thinking
01:31:13 <quintopia> but yes there is something else i SHOULD be doing
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02:31:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/QahW
02:31:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 65.1
02:33:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
02:35:08 <zzo38> I have two files to use the mzx_ascii.chr with Linux console; as well as mzx_ascii.chr file themself there are two more files: http://sprunge.us/HFFX http://sprunge.us/ZBOd
02:38:09 <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:38:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:38:38 <MDude> You may cease to laugh.
02:39:01 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
02:39:10 <ais523> oerjan: I was about to do that :)
02:39:11 <oerjan> always forget with the reason
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02:39:43 <elliott> pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment
02:39:49 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:40:07 <quintopia> !addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:40:18 <elliott> quintopia: does not follow quoting standards
02:40:24 <elliott> pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment & incorrect quoting
02:40:41 <oerjan> elliott: but... he _does_ get more lines that way, doesn't he?
02:40:43 <ais523> the command /name/ is correct
02:40:47 <ais523> you just pinged the wrong bot
02:40:48 <quintopia> !quoteadd <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:40:56 <elliott> it does not follow the guidelines
02:41:00 <ais523> and elliott insists on two spaces between comments
02:41:07 <ais523> when putting it all on one line
02:41:12 <elliott> sometimes a [...] goes between the two spaces
02:41:16 <elliott> quintopia: there is no link
02:41:41 <quintopia> i don't even know hack's command character
02:41:54 <ais523> I'm pretty sure at least one of the quotes instead has Unicode space that looks like two spaces just to troll elliott, rather than two space characters
02:42:16 <ais523> the great thing is that it trolls you even if there isn't one, because now you'll go looking for it
02:42:21 <ais523> and I can't remember which one it is
02:42:38 <elliott> ban quintopia for calling me stupid
02:42:48 <elliott> why am i not an op so i can execute all these corrections
02:43:15 <oerjan> self-answering questions are _so_ last century
02:43:21 <quintopia> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:43:24 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:43:33 <ais523> quintopia: elliott's about to revert that
02:43:54 <quintopia> i wanted to see if that wasthe command
02:44:07 <oerjan> also, the [...] was redundant
02:44:10 <quintopia> revert and delquote should be removed
02:44:11 <ais523> ^ul (<elliott> ha )::::*:*:****S
02:44:21 <elliott> quintopia should be removed
02:44:28 <quintopia> oerjan: it implied that he said it a lot more than i could fit in there
02:44:48 <quintopia> making it too easy to delete content discourages content creation
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02:44:53 <ais523> +ul (<elliott> ha )::::*:*:****S
02:44:53 <thutubot> <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha
02:45:07 <elliott> im going to ask for clearing to say ha a lot of times
02:45:13 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:15 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:15 <elliott> ais523 can i say ha a lot of times if you say no i will block you
02:45:23 <ais523> is that the correct space around [...]?
02:45:34 <elliott> it's one space before [ and one after ]
02:45:35 <quintopia> i want to delete elliott and the guidelines
02:45:36 <ais523> elliott: and I don't really see how that adds to the channel; there's an #esoteric-blah for that sort of tihng
02:45:42 <elliott> ais523: it's not meant to add
02:45:50 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:53 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:57 <elliott> -blah is sin because i no longer own it
02:45:59 <ais523> wow does that spacing look ugly
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02:46:08 <elliott> ais523: that's an incorrect use of [...], btw
02:46:16 <quintopia> ais523: i agree. double-spacing is atrocious
02:46:26 <ais523> elliott: I was just fixing quintopia's quote
02:46:35 <ais523> it means "out of context things elided", right?
02:46:43 <elliott> yes, but in this case all that was elided is more has
02:46:47 <ais523> I am going to maintain that those has belonged to three different conversations
02:46:50 <elliott> and it's a verbatim quote if you just remove the [...]
02:47:00 <quintopia> ais523: i want it to mean "this went on for a while"
02:47:03 <ais523> not in a particularly predictable interleaving, either
02:47:15 <elliott> just put more ha lines in there
02:47:15 <ais523> elliott is right that it isn't really needed, though
02:47:21 <elliott> so it edges up to the length limit
02:47:24 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:47:27 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:47:27 <elliott> quintopia: idk, HackEgo is a bit conservative
02:47:31 <ais523> elliott: no, then `quote will become a bit useless
02:47:32 <elliott> i think that is probably enough has
02:47:34 <ais523> if it picks that quote
02:47:49 <elliott> this argument has gone on longer than the has
02:48:20 <quintopia> i personally think that `quote is already useless. the function in OTHER channels serves to memorialize quotes forever. #esoteric's quote is so impermanent...
02:48:24 <ais523> so, where's that bot that kicked anyone if they repeated a line that had been said before in the history of the channel ever?
02:48:51 <oerjan> quintopia: lambdabot's quotes can also be removed, iirc
02:48:54 <elliott> ais523: i tried to set that up on #esoteric
02:49:00 <elliott> for some reason lament would not op it
02:49:01 <ais523> do people talk there much?
02:49:08 <elliott> also it segfaulted (it's a perl program) when processing the logs
02:49:22 <quintopia> eh, mostly people just come in and play with the bot for a while
02:49:26 <ais523> does it use extensions written in C?
02:49:36 <ais523> quintopia: that rather defeats the point of signal, I guess
02:49:49 <quintopia> for a while there was a "counting up" movement...see how many verses of 9999 bottles could be got in
02:49:55 <HackEgo> 492) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
02:50:00 <HackEgo> 726) <elliott> I hate you.
02:50:08 <HackEgo> 553) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
02:50:08 <HackEgo> 703) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
02:50:08 <ais523> quintopia: missing out the third line, I take it?
02:50:12 <HackEgo> 362) <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
02:50:21 <quintopia> ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick
02:50:26 <HackEgo> 138) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
02:50:33 <HackEgo> 403) <zzo38> Sanity is insufficient by itself. Many other things are also important.
02:50:37 <HackEgo> 665) <fungot> elliott: young john soon afterward receives as a visitor a fnord spaniard, fnord de moncada, who has escaped from fnord fnord dissolved in the absolute.
02:50:39 <HackEgo> 275) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
02:50:45 <HackEgo> 350) <cpressy> yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input <pikhq> s/done a better job considering input/been shot/
02:51:15 <ais523> elliott: there were five /before/ the no output
02:51:21 <Sgeo_> monqy, elliott has been updated
02:51:31 <elliott> ais523: all those ones were good even 726
02:51:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <cpressy> yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input <pikhq> s/done a better job considering input/been shot/
02:51:39 <oerjan> <quintopia> ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick <-- #irp still exists, doesn't it?
02:51:48 <ais523> oerjan: it's a honeypot for Reddit
02:51:50 <elliott> ais523: i liked that one because it reminds me of chris :'(
02:51:58 <ais523> or at least meant to be, sometimes actual conversation happens there
02:52:09 <quintopia> oerjan: exists? yes. but no more signally than #xkcd-signal
02:52:09 <HackEgo> 603) <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't *use* raw cgi. to my deep fnord i'm only fnord of the job description. it's badly fnord also.
02:52:10 <HackEgo> 712) <Phantom__Hoover> WTF is it with people with Irish names and logic?
02:52:20 <HackEgo> 752) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
02:52:20 <HackEgo> 739) Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced.
02:52:23 <HackEgo> 255) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
02:52:35 <HackEgo> 738) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
02:52:49 <ais523> is 739 out of context?
02:53:14 <elliott> note the extra space after the ?
02:53:16 <elliott> fizzie does that sometimes
02:53:26 <ais523> right, there are three
02:53:32 <ion> At least it’s not before the ?
02:53:39 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
02:53:55 <ais523> (sadly, that's a mutated version, the original line wasn't punctuated)
02:54:11 <ais523> who here hasn't watched the /worst advert ever/?
02:54:30 <ais523> well, probably there are worse ones, but the Enigma one is pretty bad :)
03:01:28 <zzo38> Does a mathematical equation have intelligent thoughts?
03:03:08 <ion> Only when evaluated
03:03:48 <HackEgo> 735) <fungot> [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...]
03:03:51 <HackEgo> 179) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
03:04:00 <HackEgo> 676) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
03:04:01 <HackEgo> 388) <oklofok> "<pikhq> elliott: Americans also have 20 mile one-way commutes." <<< one-way commutes? you have like disposable jobs?
03:04:03 <HackEgo> 361) <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
03:04:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
03:04:55 <HackEgo> 562) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
03:05:00 <HackEgo> 333) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2
03:05:07 <HackEgo> 730) <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:05:11 <HackEgo> 250) <ineiros> HELLWORLD! <fizzie> It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. <ineiros> There is more agony.
03:05:11 <HackEgo> 407) <elliott> im going to resurrect rutian <elliott> with vitamin pills <elliott> and book sales
03:05:51 <oerjan> i have a sense 730 must be out of context
03:06:45 <ais523> 333 is only good if interpreted as a Forte command
03:06:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg
03:06:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7
03:07:02 <ais523> quintopia: what did you change?
03:07:23 <quintopia> it improved his by .2 points! i just changed the very first line
03:07:23 <oerjan> `quote mountain cottage
03:07:23 <ais523> and ripping off other people's programs from the top of the hill is a little antisocial
03:07:26 <HackEgo> 730) <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:07:35 <quintopia> ais523: he agreed to it in advance
03:07:47 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
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03:08:04 <quintopia> ais523: he will resubmit his with my changes when he returns
03:08:24 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
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03:08:41 <HackEgo> 2012-05-31.txt:03:07:47: <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:08:53 <oerjan> `pastelogs mountain cottage
03:09:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1570
03:09:57 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat you can beat elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator by changing the first line to >+++>->>>
03:10:54 <oerjan> ah it was my attempt to interpret the `words output saeteraids as a norwegian word
03:11:30 <HackEgo> 697) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
03:11:34 <HackEgo> 786) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
03:11:36 <HackEgo> 625) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
03:11:41 <HackEgo> 375) <oklopol> are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] <oklopol> like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies
03:11:41 <HackEgo> 265) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
03:11:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg
03:11:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7
03:12:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:12:10 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:12:30 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
03:13:48 <oerjan> 786 isn't particularly funny
03:13:51 <ais523> elliott: you could just run it locally?
03:14:02 <ais523> oerjan: it's another of those never-forget types of quote
03:14:06 <elliott> i'd have to download the whole hill and ugh
03:14:22 <elliott> ais523: i'd have to download the software come on
03:14:41 <ais523> you mean you don't have a local interp already?
03:14:42 <quintopia> the only thing that it doesn't beat with that change is insidious
03:14:44 <ais523> I thought you /wrote/ one
03:15:09 <ais523> quintopia: does it actually beat anticipation? rather than just hitting cases that were removed to save space?
03:15:13 <quintopia> ais523: how does insidious work again?
03:15:27 <quintopia> ais523: i don't understand anticipation dude :P
03:15:38 <ais523> if it beats it on both polarities, it's probably actually beating it
03:15:56 <ais523> and insidious works by rushing to its flag before it sets any decoys
03:16:21 <quintopia> as i recall, all versions of dreadnought lose to anticipation on one polarity on long tapes
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03:16:54 <ais523> yep, that should be both polarities, but I had to remove cases to fit it within size limits
03:17:03 <ais523> you can tell if anticipation's hit a missing case if it just stands there and does nothing
03:17:12 <HackEgo> 443) <ais523> (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that)
03:17:13 <ais523> when you'd expect it to be doing something
03:17:14 <HackEgo> 550) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:17:24 <HackEgo> 248) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000 <Vorpal> probably will suck <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 30.4 <Vorpal> what
03:17:25 <HackEgo> 619) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
03:17:26 <HackEgo> 127) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
03:19:48 <quintopia> why does anticipation set all tripwires and flag to 14
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03:22:14 <ais523> nothing, they just have to all be the same number
03:22:28 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that)
03:23:08 <quintopia> ais523: with the change to line 1 of dreadnought, it beats insidious on long tapes on one polarity. makes me wonder...
03:23:10 <HackEgo> 729) <ais523> is there any evidence that Jesus knew the rules of tic-tac-toe?
03:23:15 <HackEgo> 768) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
03:23:22 <HackEgo> 644) <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
03:23:23 <HackEgo> 722) <zzo38> I have a program to tell you how far away Jupiter is. It is 4.33 units far.
03:23:24 <HackEgo> 119) <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
03:23:32 <oerjan> elliott: that `delquote 8080 is just proof that ais523 will invent feather.
03:23:39 <ais523> quintopia: it does that anyway, it's just hitting a case that was omitted to save space
03:23:57 <quintopia> ais523: i said insidious, not anticipation
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03:24:31 <ais523> elliott: right, 644 I was surprised wasn't zzo38
03:24:39 <ais523> 722 is pretty awesome even if it means AU
03:25:00 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/DCTQ
03:25:02 <ais523> so I think we're agreed
03:25:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.8
03:25:19 <ais523> on which two we don't like
03:25:21 <ais523> someone else break the tie
03:25:23 <oerjan> ais523: don't you see what a marbelus quote it is?
03:25:23 <elliott> 119 is so stupid that it can't really be deleted
03:25:30 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
03:25:38 <quintopia> wololo...now it beats everything but atehwa_test_blah
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03:26:32 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:26:33 <zzo38> Jupiter is now 5.99 AU from the Earth
03:26:44 <elliott> ais523: did quintopia just break BF Joust?
03:27:11 <ais523> I doubt it, beat-everything programs have happened before
03:27:36 <ais523> I could constant-tweak anticipation to beat it pretty easily, although it's counter-beatable
03:28:10 <quintopia> it looks like atehwa_test_blah and insidious differ in exactly the right ways to make them hard to beat simultaneously
03:28:56 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*40<(+)*40(>)*9((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>])%300])%305])%302])%308])%304])%301])%309]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:28:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious_2: 7.1
03:29:12 <ais523> (OK, I doubt that beats anything else…)
03:30:04 <ais523> wait no, loses to dwdmodtest on every length
03:30:10 <ais523> I must have screwed something up somewhere
03:30:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/BDQJ
03:30:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 68.2
03:31:00 <quintopia> now it beats everything BUT dreadnought :P
03:31:08 <quintopia> i think that makes it an improvement
03:31:19 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:31:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious2: 30.9
03:31:23 <ais523> that's the old one, IIRC
03:32:03 <quintopia> now there is an insidious2 and an insidious_2 on the hill
03:33:36 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought
03:34:02 <elliott> your previous message may have been lost
03:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0
03:34:13 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(>)*4(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>])%301])%305])%307])%304])%302])%303])%306]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:34:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking: 7.4
03:34:42 <quintopia> !irp tell david_werecat when he comes around again "changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought"
03:35:08 <ais523> quintopia: huh? that should lose to undermine
03:35:12 <ais523> unless I screwed up somewhere in that
03:35:17 <zzo38> Once very long time ago, someone who didn't know much about computers asked me to write a program to calculate the distance from here to the moon. Now, I have a program that does that and more.
03:35:31 <ais523> and blatant_constant_tweaking beats dwdmodtest on long tapes
03:35:49 <quintopia> beats undermine on every length and polarity
03:36:40 <ais523> tweaks I made to undermine to beat other things cause it to lose against the current version
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03:39:07 <quintopia> ais523: do you have a saved copy of dwdmodtest? i'm about to suicide it
03:39:11 <ais523> !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>((-)*100[-]>)*21])*21
03:39:13 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 12.4
03:39:16 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought
03:39:22 <ais523> quintopia: not saved, although I have one open in egojsout atm
03:39:39 <ais523> quintopia: oh, and undermine_simple also beats dwdmodtest
03:39:46 <ais523> good enough (it's also in the hg history)
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03:40:21 <ais523> dwdmodtest is very easy to beat
03:40:28 <ais523> the issue is beating it with a program that can beat other things too
03:40:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:40:54 <quintopia> remember that dwdmodtest is just dreadnought :P
03:41:09 <quintopia> it is a very good combination of strategies all-in-all
03:41:13 <ais523> !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>([(-)*100[-]]>)*21])*21
03:41:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 21.2
03:42:53 <ais523> as usual, undermine works better at beating my programs than anyone else's
03:44:22 <quintopia> our playing appears to have pushed elliott off the hill
03:45:43 <quintopia> i expect this will lose to *something*...
03:45:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/PgTf
03:45:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 67.7
03:46:17 <ais523> what's the first line?
03:46:48 <ais523> was that just a blatant counter-undermining fix?
03:47:10 <quintopia> but it doesnt hurt it against anything else on the hill afaict
03:47:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:51:42 <quintopia> i think there is a bug on the hill? insidious2 didn't get killed. :/
03:52:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0
03:52:11 <ais523> could have been race condition
03:52:52 <quintopia> looks like someone'll have to remove it manually
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03:56:04 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke >>>>>([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*8(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*9(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*10(>++++[-])*21]>)*8
03:56:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 18.9
03:56:14 <ais523> also beats dwdmodtest, naturally
03:56:22 <ais523> and that's a strategy I haven't seen before, I just invente dit
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04:03:29 <quintopia> i wondered if there was a targeted counter-poke type thing
04:03:49 <ais523> this one still needs work
04:04:01 <ais523> and probably a code generator
04:04:12 <ais523> the idea is that you can tell, from where the opponent is poking, a range in which their flag might be
04:04:18 <ais523> also you can set decoys behind where they poked
04:05:17 <quintopia> yeah makes sense. only works for pokes that leaves trails i assume?
04:05:44 <ais523> or if you happen to catch them in the act of adjusting the current cell to test its value, for a slow poke
04:08:31 <ais523> hmm, tweaked it, it now wins against your test program on every tape length but 10
04:09:16 <quintopia> let me know when you've added the cool ais523 stuff to it :P
04:09:28 <ais523> I'm still working on the general rush algorithm
04:09:37 <ais523> I'll add a decent clear loop to it later, if I remember
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04:12:22 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/XJXd
04:12:24 <ais523> I was still working on it
04:12:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 22.6
04:12:34 <ais523> it doesn't follow an easily compressible pattern any more, although it is a very simple one
04:13:00 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious2 <
04:13:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious2: 0.0
04:13:08 <ais523> it was just a misspelling :)
04:13:23 <ais523> ooh, counterpoke beats ffspg
04:13:56 <ais523> and dreadnought, and juggernaut
04:14:11 <ais523> (and scores a perfect 42 against your tweaked dreadnought)
04:14:37 <ais523> no it isn't, look at the decoy setup
04:14:43 <ais523> regular pokes start building from their flag
04:15:08 <ais523> this one puts a huge decoy at every location a typical poke would check, and none at every location a typical poke wouldn't
04:15:21 <ais523> also, regular pokes start checking just beyond the location they check
04:15:31 <ais523> this skips a distance forwards from there depending on the tape length
04:15:39 <ais523> counter-rule-of-nining the enemy poke
04:16:24 <quintopia> space_elevator leaves small ones intermittently
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04:17:02 <ais523> counterpoke /beats/ space_elevator :)
04:17:25 <quintopia> i'm just saying, counter_poke looks a lot like poke :P
04:17:46 <ais523> just one tuned to counter other pokes
04:17:54 <ais523> than one tuned to counter traditional decoy setups, like regular pokes do
04:17:58 <quintopia> but that's a good idea i never thought of
04:18:10 <ais523> I'm actually surprised pokes do so well, given how easy it is to simply drop a forward decoy
04:18:15 <quintopia> to start from the *next* cell after the one the poke got to
04:19:13 <ais523> oh, I've been doing that for ages
04:19:21 <ais523> triple_tripwire_avoider, etc
04:19:26 <ais523> just not normally combined with a poke
04:20:07 <ais523> also, most things that did that skipped forwards a fixed distance, rather than basing it on tape length
04:21:18 <quintopia> it seems like the time might have come...
04:23:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdtripskip http://sprunge.us/VMXB
04:23:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 63.6
04:25:32 <quintopia> it beats anticipation on both polarities (as expected?)
04:25:54 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/MGcM
04:25:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 27.0
04:26:44 <ais523> some tweaks to make it weaker against pokes but stronger against rushes
04:27:38 <ais523> amusingly, it draws against poke
04:29:15 <ais523> which is just zero-checking so there's no way it can tell where the opposing pointer is
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04:30:59 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/afcb
04:31:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 29.1
04:31:10 <ais523> and that has some improvements against defence on long tapes
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04:31:41 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>[+]]
04:31:44 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3
04:31:53 <shachaf> I have no idea what happened.
04:31:59 <ais523> shachaf: that's, umm, not a very good program
04:32:03 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>>[+]]
04:32:06 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3
04:32:13 <ais523> you can try [>[+]+] so you aren't breaking out of your own loop
04:32:28 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>]
04:32:32 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.3
04:32:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_null: 13.3
04:32:45 <ais523> null was not /meant/ to do well
04:32:53 <ais523> and I'm getting 29.1 on counterpoke atm
04:32:59 <shachaf> And yet it did better than null
04:33:16 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>[+]>]
04:33:19 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.5
04:33:40 <ais523> so that's a vibration program (probably unintentionally)
04:33:40 <shachaf> I have no idea what's going on.
04:33:44 <ais523> and not a very good one at that
04:34:23 <ais523> hmm, counterpoke has a lot of potential, it mostly just needs a better clear loop, I think
04:34:46 <ais523> although I'd prefer to give it enough of a decoy advantage that the clear loop's irrelevant
04:34:50 <shachaf> What's the best score ever gotten?
04:34:57 <ais523> !bfjoust what_did_we_call_this (+)*-1
04:35:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_what_did_we_call_this: 19.5
04:35:16 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration (-)*128(+-)*-1
04:35:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.0
04:35:26 <ais523> haha, vibration gets 26 nowadays?
04:35:33 <ais523> people have been forgetting to build in protection against it :)
04:35:39 <ais523> I guess it beats fast pokes half the time
04:36:24 <ion> http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/zoo-caretaker-licks-monkeys-butt-to-help-it-defecate.html
04:37:01 <ais523> ais523_vibration.bfjoust vs quintopia_dwdtripskip.bfjous t>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -4 2ais523_vibration.bfjoust wins.
04:37:03 <zzo38> That is a strange thing to do
04:37:39 <ais523> wasn't thinking straight for a moment there
04:37:40 <shachaf> Does your program compete against all the other programs or what?
04:37:41 <quintopia> i didn't put any vibration protection on any of my poke programs :P
04:37:51 <ais523> shachaf: it competes against a dynamic top N
04:38:16 <ais523> well, anticipation is basically just a smarter vibration, is one way to think about it
04:38:46 <quintopia> theoretically, though, the poke should get to vibration's flag before it starts vibrating
04:39:39 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1
04:39:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 21.3
04:39:53 <ais523> oh, because it no longer beats the tripskippers
04:40:05 <ais523> that's a more "honest" score than the previous one
04:40:18 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1
04:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9
04:40:42 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*70000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:40:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9
04:40:58 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*4000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.6
04:41:04 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*40000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5
04:41:09 <ais523> not that it's likely to make /much/ difference
04:41:25 <ais523> and now it's a constant-tweaking war against other defend-and-abandon programs
04:41:34 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*23000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5
04:41:43 <ais523> oh dear, I've been hi'd
04:42:07 <ais523> vibration is now equal to triplock2 :)
04:42:24 <ais523> elliott: we're busy trying to break BF Joust again
04:42:35 <ais523> defence might not work, but there still seems to be plenty of life in attack program variety
04:42:39 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 0.0
04:42:50 <ais523> I found a generic way of beating all the slow poke programs that are dominating the hill
04:42:56 <ais523> and it also works moderately well against fast rushes
04:43:17 <ais523> but it's currently hovering at #25
04:43:24 <ais523> despite beating many of the leaders
04:45:26 <quintopia> what happens if a program clears through to anticipation's flag, starts attacking it, and then abandons the attack after a while and goes off to play defense? does anticipation avoid suiciding?
04:46:16 <ais523> (+)*32(-)*32 can never two-cycle-zero a flag that wasn't 0 to start with
04:46:30 <ais523> unless the program abandons at the exact right moment
04:46:51 <ais523> it /might/ suicide on the unrelated grounds of running off the right end during its clear, though
04:47:00 <ais523> if the opponent starts defending its flag (specifically)
04:47:46 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 <
04:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 0.0
04:47:51 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
04:47:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 31.8
04:48:31 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what happens if I put the insidious clear loop in counterpoke?
04:50:14 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke2 http://sprunge.us/HdeH
04:50:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 21.5
04:50:22 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke2 <
04:50:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 0.0
04:50:26 <ais523> thought that might happen
04:50:33 <ais523> different programs need different clear loops
04:50:49 <ais523> counterpoke wants a traditional-style one, I think
04:52:09 <ais523> I'm interested in what clever method david_werecat or quintopia come up with to beat counterpoke
04:54:29 <elliott> ais523: btw, what do you think of my idea to drop anything with negative points
04:54:34 <elliott> to reduce some of the silly hill effects
04:55:01 <ais523> elliott: then you'd lose half the programs with each iteration
04:55:20 <quintopia> ais523: the obvious counter to counterpoke is put a decoy near your flag before beginning a trail-free poke.
04:55:26 <ais523> or to put it another way, you need bad programs for the good programs to compare against to show that they're good
04:55:27 <zzo38> I made up a program to access the entire CP437 graphics by Linux
04:55:43 <ais523> quintopia: right, indeed
04:55:52 <ais523> zzo38: doesn't the Linux console do that by default, if you send it the right escape codes?
04:56:19 <zzo38> ais523: No, there are some it won't; and as far as I can see the default font does not even include all of them.
04:56:45 <zzo38> (Also, this is non-Unicode mode. Unicode mappings are still required, though, even if it is not Unicode)
04:57:12 <quintopia> elliott: i think the silly hill effects could be reduced by permanently freezing a short list of "champions" to stay on the hill forever, even if they suck. it would mean that good programs would *always* have to think about all the strategies out there to be good.
04:57:28 <elliott> quintopia: i strongly dislike that
04:57:31 <elliott> it messes with the metagame
04:57:39 <ais523> any previous winner, perhaps?
04:57:43 <ais523> but yes, I like the fluid metagame
04:57:52 <ais523> counterpoke is likely to get better over time just because people keep making pokes ;)
04:58:05 <quintopia> elliott: i thought the metagame was what you meant by "silly hill effects"
04:58:20 <elliott> well the silly hill effects are what messes with the metagame :P
04:58:26 <zzo38> The one I did it, works with VT100 graphics as well. When shift in, all the printable characters correspond to their CP437 character with that code. When shift out they differ, but the VT100 box-drawing graphics work as expected and others fill in for the codes that cannot normally be printed.
04:59:23 <quintopia> elliott: well, its not like the old standbys won't find their way back onto the hill anyway. people re-add the classics every so often just to see how they stack up against the new flock. so there's no point in *actually* freezing them there.
04:59:47 <zzo38> It includes a Unicode mapping file and a shell script. The shell script also turns off Unicode and sets the locale to C locale (although the environment variable cannot be set if run in a sub process)
04:59:58 <ais523> elliott: hmm, would you freeze something like vibration?
05:00:03 <ais523> it never /should/ do very well
05:00:06 <ais523> but sometimes it does anyway
05:00:26 <zzo38> ais523: Do you have Linux, if so, what distribution and what default fonts and console modes they use?
05:00:33 <elliott> I wouldn't freeze anything
05:00:36 <ais523> zzo38: I'm using Ubuntu Precise at the moment
05:00:46 <ais523> I'm not sure what the console fonts on the Linux console is
05:01:11 <ais523> I use DejaVu Sans Mono in the X terminal, but that's not the default any more
05:01:38 <zzo38> Does the console bell work?
05:02:06 <zzo38> How does it turn on?
05:02:50 <ais523> zzo38: I just turned on all the visible bell settings I could find
05:02:59 <ais523> presumably it'd work if you turned them all off
05:03:17 <zzo38> Why do you ask other people if you should sleep? Figure out by yourself! Look at clock, look on outside, know if you are tired, know if you are appointment, and figure out by yourself please
05:03:43 <ais523> elliott: are you appointment?
05:03:48 <zzo38> ais523: On the computers at FreeGeek I try the console bell it doesn't work
05:03:57 <elliott> ais523: that's a very philosophical question
05:04:03 <elliott> am i appointment? am i indeed.
05:04:19 <ais523> zzo38: I think the kernel module for it was disabled by default, because shutdown(8) causes a beep via the kernel, and they couldn't figure out how to stop it
05:04:38 <ais523> (which is ridiculous…)
05:04:54 <elliott> ais523: i'm not appointment no
05:05:04 <zzo38> I think the shutdown should beep by default, anyways
05:05:12 <ais523> elliott: do you have anything you want to achieve right now?
05:05:15 <elliott> i think computers should never beep
05:05:23 <elliott> except to notify me of irc pings
05:05:27 <ais523> do you have anything you want to achieve tomorrow?
05:05:48 <elliott> I always have things I want to achieve!
05:06:04 <ais523> do you think you're more likely to achieve them if you sleep first?
05:06:24 <elliott> probably, but sleeping is a lot of work
05:06:48 <ais523> do you find it easy to sleep, when you want to?
05:07:06 <ais523> also, slep at 6, wake at 14, is perfectly respectable
05:07:22 <elliott> instead of sleep i could watch awful iphone adverts
05:07:22 <elliott> http://www.apple.com/iphone/videos/#tv-ads-joke
05:07:26 <zzo38> Get a paper write down anything you dream about. And then, if you don't like it, cut off the parts you dislike
05:07:32 <elliott> (my browser opens to an apple.com start page because i'm too lazy to change it)
05:09:49 <ais523> elliott: heh, I manually set my homepage to about:blank
05:10:10 <zzo38> I also prefer it to be set to about:blank
05:10:17 <ais523> perhaps I'll set Chromium's to YouTube, as I don't use it for anything but heavily Flash-dependent or video-dependent websites
05:10:44 <elliott> hwn day and all my haskell answers get upvoted
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05:12:10 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, the default Linux console font is not based on CP437; it is Latin-1, Cyrillic, and VT100 box-drawing
05:14:13 <ais523> zzo38: not the default one
05:14:18 <ais523> there's one you can load using escape codes
05:15:20 <zzo38> Or at least, it is the one set in the computer at FreeGeek that I have used, which is this.
05:15:35 <zzo38> ESC ( U does not set the font, it only sets the translation table
05:21:50 <ais523> elliott: I think so, you may have more ideas about what else to do when you wake up
05:22:00 <ais523> and I often sleep around now
05:22:15 <ais523> and wake up at a reasonable time (i.e. early afternoon) and am refreshed
05:22:28 <elliott> i don't do the refreshed thing
05:22:32 <elliott> i do the waking up drowsy thing
05:22:49 <ais523> you're refreshed an hour or so /after/ you wake up
05:22:52 <ais523> you have to wake up gradually
05:22:56 <ais523> I can take hours to wake up sometimes
05:23:20 <quintopia> !bfjoust test http://sprunge.us/cTQH
05:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 33.5
05:23:46 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 0.0
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05:25:32 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_binary#DOS
05:25:36 <shachaf> An application for polyglots!
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05:28:48 <HackEgo> 830) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
05:34:51 <shachaf> `run echo "quote monqy" > bin/quonqy; chmod +x bin/quonky
05:34:53 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/quonky': No such file or directory
05:35:03 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
05:35:11 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quonqy \ quote \ quotes \ randomanonlog \ roll \ searchlog
05:35:26 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/quonky': No such file or directory
05:36:06 <shachaf> I don't get what's going on, but I knew you would do that.
05:36:21 <shachaf> `run echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf
05:36:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: cannot execute: Permission denied
05:36:58 <shachaf> `run bash -c 'echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf; chmod +x bin/quachaf'
05:37:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found
05:37:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found
05:37:52 <shachaf> elliott thinks he can just do whatever he pleases.
05:38:07 <shachaf> Master of all he/she/it beholds
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07:04:30 <zzo38> Can a computer think? Can a submarine swim?
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07:38:05 <pikhq> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html *cough*assholes*cough*
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07:46:30 <Taneb> pikhq, Microsoft or Red Hat?
07:47:18 <Taneb> Gregor: annoying and ultimately pointless ping
07:48:37 <pikhq> Taneb: All of the above.
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08:05:54 <itidus21> i don't understand the issues involved but it can't end well
08:06:47 <itidus21> they should have done a kickstarter on this linux key thing :-D
08:07:36 <pikhq> itidus21: Basically, Microsoft is strongarming vendors into supporting kernel signature verification...
08:07:46 <pikhq> The issue is, this is a *huge* step towards non-general computing.
08:08:18 <pikhq> Much like the fucking iPod.
08:08:55 <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
08:08:59 <pikhq> Although it'll apparently be trivial *now*, you'll have to *root your own damned PC* to use a kernel Microsoft's not signed on.
08:09:37 <itidus21> and in the same way, microsoft's capacity to strongarm vendors probably isn't going away for the forseeable future
08:10:03 * pikhq curses the US DoJ a bit for good measure
08:10:08 <itidus21> but it appears there is a positive feedback on microsofts capacity to strongarm.. since it is apparently getting better at it
08:10:27 <pikhq> "We find Microsoft to be an illegal monopoly! And fine them some pocket lint."
08:14:48 <fizzie> I think the bestest thing is that that while on x86 they went the "there must be a way for the user to add custom keys" route, possibly because of all the complaints, on ARM their requirements for "Windows 8 hardware" are the exact opposite: it must not be capable of running anything else than Windows in any way.
08:15:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Worse still.
08:15:16 <pikhq> Windows on ARM can't run anything but Microsoft-signed Metro programs.
08:15:31 <itidus21> maybe non-linux using people should just boycott windows 8
08:15:44 <pikhq> Or Microsoft-signed Win32 programs, but only Microsoft will make Microsoft-signed Win32 programs.
08:16:00 <pikhq> (did someone say "antitrust"? ... Oh, fuck, that doesn't matter, I'm going to drink myself into a stupor)
08:16:28 <pikhq> itidus21: Thankfully, Metro is a very poorly designed interface and they're trying to cram it in there, so I wouldn't be surprised to find Win8 flopping.
08:16:56 <itidus21> well i would like to think noone needs Win8
08:17:39 <atehwa> quintopia: wooooooo has somebody been trying out my redcode?-)
08:17:43 <pikhq> Microsoft's got much the same problem now they had with Vista. The previous version is good enough.
08:18:01 <itidus21> maybe one day apple will compete head to head against microsoft on the same hardware
08:18:12 <atehwa> quintopia: oh, I misremembered: not redcode warrior, but a bf one
08:19:12 <pikhq> itidus21: Would require more balls than they have, and Microsoft's non-general computers have removed the window for that.
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08:24:06 <itidus21> prepare for more nonsense.. this parody disclaimer brought to you by the good folks at schweppes australia!
08:26:34 <itidus21> bots know that servers need to stay online. virus-writers know that users need to return to the internet daily. companies know that customers need upgrades and updates.
08:27:04 <itidus21> in other words if people could be contented to stay offline and never upgrade or update their pc then there'd be no problems
08:28:16 <Taneb> Except that people would be offline
08:28:22 <itidus21> as someone once explained to me such things would be homeostasis, which isn't realistically possible or good
08:28:24 <Taneb> Which means my life would be a bit boring-er
08:28:51 <itidus21> you're right.. the benefits outweigh the costs
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09:31:50 <Taneb> pikhq, by the way, the weird consonant in my "eighths" is half-way between a g and a k, it seems
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10:03:07 <Taneb> My plan to buy a computer has gone slightly awry
10:05:18 <pikhq> My plan to go to sleep at a reasonable hour has gone completely off.
10:05:49 <Taneb> It works out as 8 pounds cheaper
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10:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I'm thinking DF's new migrant system may need a little tweaking.
11:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I slaughtered 3 puppies so pikhq_ could make a dog bone crown.
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11:29:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yay, dead puppies everywhere
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12:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Made another pocket island, this time with 500 years of history and a few more civs.
12:08:17 <Taneb> Oh, toady and threetoe
12:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Singed War was waged by The Equal Desert on The Truthful Empire. One of the most significant causes of the conflict was a dispute over truthfulness."
12:11:43 <Taneb> The truthful empire sounds nice
12:12:25 <Taneb> Equal empire: "We should tell the truth and lie EQUALLY! You must die for telling the truth too much!"
12:13:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also apparently one of the mainstays of The Equal Desert's army was giant ticks.
12:15:19 <Taneb> Tick as in the yes symbol or tick as in the parasite?
12:16:42 <Phantom_Hoover> They didn't get up to much in the 5th millennium, though, so maybe they lost to someone else.
12:17:08 <Taneb> I thought you said 500 years?
12:18:45 <Taneb> Maybe they thought there were doing too many things, so stopped in the name of equality
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12:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> They got the crap kicked out of them by The Contingent Keys back in The Age of Dragon and Hill Titan.
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12:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> There are fully ten books titled "The Dwarf The Easy Way", along with commentary in the form of "Before The Dwarf The Easy Way" and "The Dwarf The Easy Way: Fact Or Fiction?".
12:39:00 <Taneb> I want to do the same but it keeps stopping at 30 years
12:39:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's set to stop worldgen when 80% of the megabeasts are dead and 30 years have passed.
12:41:04 <Taneb> I normally don't really care for the history
12:41:09 <Taneb> I generally say 5 year history
12:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably not a good idea these days, since migrant skills are built up during worldgen.
12:43:14 <Taneb> This may take a while
12:43:22 <Taneb> You probably have a better computer than me
12:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH almost everything interesting happens in the first millennium.
12:46:33 <Taneb> Vax, the vacuumy people?
12:49:19 <Taneb> Seeing as it's now gone further than here has since the start of the Roman Kingdom
12:49:50 <Taneb> I may stop it at 3k
12:52:25 <Taneb> Old mainframe versus New Laptop!? Who will win!
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12:54:46 <Taneb> It's on "Twilight Age"
12:54:54 <Taneb> Has been for about 2 millenia
12:56:00 <Taneb> Apparently it's when everyone sucks
12:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The two I tried ended up in Golden Age and Age of the Dwarf.
12:56:37 <Taneb> The population is shrinking
12:57:35 <Taneb> It's about 1900 and seems roughly stable
12:59:49 <Taneb> It's just switched to the Second Twilight Age
13:00:14 <Taneb> It's switching between fairy tales and twilight
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13:01:32 <Taneb> "The Thirteenth Age of Fairy Tales"
13:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR that that indicates near-total dominance by a single race, possibly humans.
13:02:33 <Taneb> I thought it was very few mythological creatures
13:02:48 <Taneb> And what does ISTR stand for again?
13:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway it can't mean megabeasts, because the megabeasts die almost instantly on a pocket world.
13:03:21 -!- nvt has joined.
13:03:37 <Taneb> 90%+ mundane creatures, but fantasy creatures are still about
13:04:37 <Taneb> The example given is "human"
13:05:29 <Taneb> Got over a million events
13:06:14 <Taneb> It's stuck at fairy tales now
13:10:43 <Taneb> Wow, there was a golden age and I missed it
13:10:50 <Taneb> It's sorting the legends
13:13:02 <Taneb> The big dwarf place got attacked by a monster's wife
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13:53:05 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, there's a video on YouTube of a goblin invasion set to that song
14:02:31 <Taneb> I've narrowed elliott's location down to two rough areas
14:02:46 <Taneb> Unfortunately, these amount to "Hexham" and "Outside of Hexham"
14:05:31 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/a3bbb144/save.php?hash=adb838876e2902dbcf20f7ebd96e4408
14:05:31 <lambdabot> david_werecat: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:05:34 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:06:36 <Taneb> I just convinced myself the topic had the word "internatio:)nal"
14:08:55 -!- Taneb has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internatio:)nal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:10:07 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878
14:10:11 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:10:55 <quintopia> david_werecat: as i made them, ais worked to conter them. that was fun.
14:11:04 <Gregor> `pastelogs <[E]goBot> Score for .*: 7[0-9]
14:11:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yay!
14:11:52 <david_werecat> That does sound fun. I see that the new antipoke program beats dreadnought.
14:12:06 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes yes, it's broken, too bad, I don't have time to fix it right now.
14:12:32 <Gregor> quintopia: Whatever you were saying was broken last night.
14:12:49 * Gregor is confused by that pastelogs giving no output...
14:13:30 <Gregor> `pastelogs [>] Score for .*: [7-9][0-9]
14:13:41 <quintopia> david_werecat: it could be modified to beat any poke program that leaves trails as it pokes
14:13:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6962
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14:16:53 <david_werecat> I see why it wins. It leaves decoys that are too large for dreadnought to handle.
14:17:48 <quintopia> more than that...it always leaves them where you will encounter them
14:18:34 <david_werecat> Ah, so that's why it beats dreadnought but not juggernaut
14:21:39 <ais523> are you discussing counterpoke?
14:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, the Ages of Goblins are broken up by brief Golden Ages.
14:22:15 <ais523> I think it's reasonably comprehensive at beating "anything even vaguely similar to dreadnaught"
14:22:28 <ais523> this includes my slowpoke and Gregor's ffspg as well as dreadnaught
14:23:21 <david_werecat> Seems that way. I could theoretically beat it by making several bigger decoys, but that would take dreadnought out of first place.
14:24:47 <ais523> I'm not convinced making several bigger decoys /would/ beat it, unless you were careful about how you made them
14:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The elves were wiped out in the first millennium, though.
14:26:02 <david_werecat> Building 8 size 70 decoys might beat counterpoke, since it would slow it down by a lot.
14:26:45 <ais523> if you're building 8 size 70 decoys, on tapes longer than 18 or so it's going to build more than 8
14:26:51 <ais523> /and/ skip several of them
14:27:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also AFAICT one goblin civ kidnapped tens of dorf children a year.
14:27:34 <david_werecat> Hm. That's now been made apparent looking at the animations.
14:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I will put a convenient bin full of masterwork adamantine arms and armour behind a locked door, build a self-operating danger room, start an adventurer and cut every single goblin to pieces.
14:29:06 <david_werecat> Though I guess the question now is, can that be made into a new #1 program?
14:29:48 <ais523> it's beating a lot of things, but still quite a way down the leaderboard
14:29:48 <quintopia> only if people keep making pokes that do well :P
14:30:08 <ais523> I modified the second half of the program to do decently against rush too
14:30:31 <ais523> it struggles against weirder tactics, although it confuses most of my defence stuff quite adequately because my defence stuff's never seen anything quite like it before
14:30:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yesssss
14:31:15 <david_werecat> I'm surprised it's not higher on the chart, given the number of wins it has.
14:31:45 <ais523> it could be that a lot of them are quite close
14:32:04 <ais523> it got a perfect 42 against quintopia's modification of your program (because it was supposed to :P), but most of its wins aren't so dramatic
14:33:25 <david_werecat> Right now it's got a 38 against dreadnought, it seems to lose on tapes of length 30.
14:33:49 <ais523> that's probably because it's incorrectly detecting rush rather than poke
14:34:00 <ais523> on the basis that the poke's taking an awfully long time to detect
14:34:11 <ais523> fixing that'd make it worse against all the rush programs, so I think this is a decent tradeoff
14:35:57 <Gregor> lol, I love how ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is still top 10
14:36:14 <ais523> four is a very popular value :)
14:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Another goblin civ has meanwhile declared war on the collective wildlife of the south.
14:37:15 <david_werecat> I almost made a program a while ago that exploited the fact that most programs leave even numbers.
14:37:35 <ais523> I love exploiting patterns like that
14:38:06 <ais523> there was the whole turtle phenomenon (which has now mostly died down, to the extent that I don't even bother counter-turtling any more in rush programs)
14:38:32 <Taneb> This is like Pokmon all over again
14:38:47 <Taneb> Rush is not very effective on turtle
14:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm getting the sense that there are no actual goblins running the goblin civs these days.
14:38:52 <ais523> david_werecat: how far?
14:39:05 <ais523> a reasonable turtle will be able to beat small tweaks in the flag value
14:39:07 <ais523> 3 is probably not enough
14:39:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, reavers!
14:39:41 <david_werecat> I also used 3 because it again leaves another odd number.
14:40:22 <david_werecat> Actually, I'll check to see what happens when I change that to 5.
14:40:36 <ais523> it'll slow down the program for no meaningful benefit, I imagine
14:40:45 <ais523> I typically use ranges of 8 or 16 either way when turtling
14:40:56 <quintopia> ais523: counterpoke could do better if it dinged its own flag more. careless clear owns it
14:41:10 <ais523> quintopia: yes, I probably should
14:41:21 <ais523> it wouldn't cost much to adjust it by even 30 or 40 or so
14:41:40 * ais523 tries to remember what a philip is
14:42:10 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/897bccf7/save.php?hash=9ba085da526b684aa1046e0e418f7256
14:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at lists of historical figures shows no goblins at all at the end.
14:42:14 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.3
14:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So I'm getting the sense that the Ages of Goblins largely took place after goblins became extinct.
14:42:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, so... the goblins died out, but their civilization was mainly human?
14:42:51 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878
14:42:54 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:43:05 <ais523> loses only to counterpoke and waterfall2
14:43:24 <ais523> the slaves eventually outnumbered their masters and took over
14:43:55 <ais523> that waterfall2 loss is probably coincidental and fixable with constant tweaking
14:44:36 <ais523> and again, doesn't legitimately beat anticipation, which I really need to find a better way to compress
14:45:04 <david_werecat> Actually, I haven't done much tweaking with dreadnought. Maybe I should...
14:45:26 <ais523> the waterfall series is in general very sensitive to tweaking everywhere
14:45:27 <david_werecat> I'm just not sure how without reposting it a few thousand times.
14:45:32 <ais523> I even wrote a genetic tweaker to help improve it
14:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, filtering for 'Snodub', a goblin name, shows no goblins at all after the first century.
14:46:12 <ais523> you can grab the hill via hg, and use an offline client to do calculations
14:47:32 <david_werecat> Although, writing a custom offline client sounds fun
14:47:51 <ais523> I wrote one because the others were too slow or unreliable
14:48:39 <ais523> and combined it with some scripts, and now it has a whole load of features telling you things like what's changed in terms of what you beat from last time you ran it, and its loss reasons broken down by type, program, length and polarity
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14:48:59 <ais523> (incidentally, according to elliott, the polarities are called "sieve" and "kettle")
14:49:51 <ais523> I think so; it doesn't work on some of the things on the hill, I can't remember whether that's notation differences or something else, it's been a while
14:50:01 <ais523> there are cornercases in whitespace, etc., that interps disagree on
14:51:03 <david_werecat> I also noticed that different interpreters expand programs differently.
14:51:22 <ais523> the best interpreters don't expand them at all, they run the expansions "mentally" to save memory
14:51:35 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/RbWF
14:51:43 <ais523> (runprog.sh, and juiced.c)
14:52:37 <ais523> it even seems to use a sane indentation style
14:52:47 <ais523> I must not have been in a trollish mood when I wrote it
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14:54:28 <david_werecat> One thing that I found odd about the current interpreter on the hill is that it won't accept something like ([+)*3(-)*4([-)2(])*5
14:55:02 <quintopia> if you want to do that sort of thing, use ({})%
14:55:28 <ais523> yep, (a{b}c)%d is equivalent to (a)*db(c)*d
14:55:45 <ais523> except that it allows open brackets in part a to be matched by close brackets in part c
14:55:56 <ais523> these rules are to make it possible to execute even large programs efficiently
14:56:03 <Gregor> s/efficiently/without expansion/
14:56:12 <ais523> expanding would be inefficient
14:56:22 <Gregor> Yes, but there are lots of other inefficiencies in the world ;)
14:56:45 <quintopia> we are amking it possible to execute them efficiently
14:56:52 <david_werecat> Without expanding, the interpreter could store brace jumppoints in a stack rather than explicitly checking them.
14:57:14 <david_werecat> Checking could be a single pass over the program at the start.
14:57:38 <Gregor> !bfjoust nonsense >([ [+++[(-[{>>>>[[-]>]}])%5]] ]+>)*21
14:57:41 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nonsense: 3.2
14:58:00 <ais523> Gregor: what was that about?
14:58:06 <ais523> it looks sort-of like a serious program
14:58:10 <ais523> but on closer inspection it can't be
14:58:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought there weren't any goblins
14:58:45 <Gregor> ais523: It's beats dreadnaught by a narrow margin, and nothing else ;)
14:58:58 <ais523> that's what the >>>> is for
14:59:04 <ais523> I remember doing that in insidious at one point
14:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, there apparently are, they're just a tiny minority.
14:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And *that* goblin was a slave of a human civ (as in human-human, not 'goblin'-human) who settled in a tomb for some reason.
15:00:32 <ais523> david_werecat: I was rushing off dreadnaught-beaters really frequently earlier to needle quintopia
15:01:04 <ais523> insidious was added, and undermine re-added, to beat his beats-everything tweaks to your programs via methods he hadn't thought of
15:01:35 <ais523> undermine is trivially easy to beat if you know how it works, incidentally
15:01:54 <david_werecat> note: the current insidious loses against dreadnought
15:01:57 <ais523> although things that beat undermine tend to lose to counterpoke, so there's a nice pincer movement going on there
15:02:18 <ais523> it's too easy to beat insidious by changing your decoy setup just a bit, and rather hard to compensate
15:02:30 <ais523> I'm not very good at needling people
15:03:02 <quintopia> ais523: fizzie_evo4 beats counterpoke on short tapes. that must be embarassing! (flag-dinging would take care of that)
15:03:33 <ais523> it uses hyper-rush on short tapes because there's no room for decoys and even if they were they'd be skipped by rule of 9
15:03:38 <ais523> but I didn't put a counter-vibration on it
15:03:42 <ais523> probably I should have done
15:04:03 <ais523> counterpoke is still far from optimised, it still uses a mindbogglingly standard offset clear, for instance
15:04:32 <ais523> (and to think, there were days of BF Joust programming where people didn't know about offset clears yet because they hadn't been invented)
15:04:42 <quintopia> yeah i noticed that the tape lengths where collision beats it are those where rule of 9 skips its carefully placed decoys
15:05:23 <david_werecat> Hmmm... I wonder how counterpoke would do with a juggernaut attack?
15:05:39 <ais523> david_werecat: I tried an insidious attack but it made it way worse
15:06:18 <ais523> I imagine an extreme juggernaught attack would also hurt; it's either set so many decoys that its clear speed doesn't really matter, or it's in a race where the opponent hasn't had much of a chance to set decoys
15:06:25 <Sgeo__> http://www.jimblyworlds.com/movies/promo.asf
15:06:32 <ais523> which implies a simple clear loop would be better
15:07:07 <ais523> nonetheless, I should do something like [-[-]][-[-]]> to make sure (which is guaranteed both vibration-proof and triplock-proof, although not immune to regular locks)
15:07:36 <ais523> well, proof against losing to vibration, it can still draw
15:07:48 <ais523> it also needs a timer clear to beat anticipations and regular locks
15:07:56 <ais523> but heavy counterdefence isn't what I'm focusing on atm
15:07:57 <quintopia> ais523: idea: place the first large decoy to the point where you back-off and then the second by the flag for tapes shorter than 20
15:08:10 <ais523> especially as I'm pretty much the only person who writes defence programs good enough to stick around on the hill anyway
15:08:11 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_juggernaut http://tinypaste.com/929dd6d4/save.php?hash=5def4fb0ec698c0c9124f023b2d52e51
15:08:14 <quintopia> that would give rule of 9 skips something to hang up on
15:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 36.5
15:08:28 <ais523> quintopia: wouldn't work unless they set a lot of decoys
15:08:34 <ais523> in which case, they'd outrace us even with the decoy near the flag
15:09:05 <ais523> quintopia: if they don't set a lot of decoys, they reach the flag before we set the flag decoy
15:09:12 <ais523> because any reasonable program can quickly clear a chain of 2s
15:09:29 <Gregor> !bfjoust lunatic (>)*9(+)*127(<(-)*127<(+)*127)*4(>)*8(>(+)*24[-])*21
15:09:30 <ais523> if they do set a lot of decoys, their lots are going to hold us up longer than our one
15:09:31 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_lunatic: 15.4
15:09:33 <quintopia> there are several unreasonable programs :P
15:09:47 <Gregor> OK, I'm done writing things just to narrowly beat juggernaut ;)
15:10:07 <ais523> narrowly beating the top program is fun
15:10:11 <ais523> not as fun when they do it to you
15:10:43 <ais523> although I remember when waterfall3 had 100% win rate, elliott made it all-wins-but-1-which-is-a-draw by submitting /the exact same program/, and I tweaked a constant to beat it to
15:10:45 <quintopia> watch counterpoke vs. jix_wiggle3 or collision
15:10:45 <quintopia> it seems like it might somethimes help there
15:11:07 <ais523> I can't remember how collision works any more
15:12:51 <ais523> it seems it helps against myndzi, and against weird stuff
15:12:56 <ais523> and hurts against ffspg
15:13:04 <ais523> not beating ffspg is close to unforgivable for a counterpoke :)
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15:13:54 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 0.0
15:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh, the XML dump for the legends is larger than Emacs' maximum buffer size.
15:23:48 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:25:43 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: how big is it?
15:26:40 <Taneb> Lumpio-, the LEGENDS OF ROCK
15:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> With the smallest built-in size and the largest possible history.
15:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I did so so I can faff around trying to work things out more easily.
15:28:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises he doesn't know the standard command for "display lines n to m".
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15:30:15 -!- MoALTz has joined.
15:30:53 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: standard command in unix shell or in some text editor?
15:31:15 <Taneb> The closses I can get a fortress name to someone in this channel is "oklinfok sh"
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15:36:16 <Taneb> I'm making a world to /play/, dammit
15:39:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I did that, except I got scared off for a bit when I got slammed with two massive migrant waves which threw off a lot of my plans, and then a human arrived with an FB-style announcement.
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15:40:54 <Taneb> FB-style? You have 1 new friend request, elliott hird has asked you to help with his farm on FarmVille?
15:42:48 <Gregor> You have been invited to the group I'll Bet a Goblin Horde can get More Likes than Dwarves
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16:06:18 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:06:29 <Gregor> I present, for your reading pleasure, a quote by the least eloquent man imaginable:
16:06:31 <Gregor> "It was not only grotesque, it was just very sad, the amount of blood," Sgt. Javier Ortiz, vice president of the Miami Fraternal Order of Police, told the Associated Press. "It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten."
16:06:47 -!- aloril has joined.
16:08:45 <quintopia> Gregor: oh god. whatever happened to picking the best talker for press conferences?
16:09:33 <Gregor> I think this guy's speaking style is more grotesque than the crime ^^'
16:09:43 <Gregor> (OK, that was an awful thing to say X-D)
16:11:21 <Taneb> The gamble of starting on an aquifer hasn't paid off
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16:28:57 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZTE4dw yay, I broke it
16:33:54 <olsner> was that a picture of a cached copy of an error message?
16:34:38 <elliott> olsner: I have no idea why it cached the error :P
16:38:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you realised that you're not a ?
16:38:41 <nortti> http://sourceforge.net/projects/grepgui/
16:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you read about the epic history of Teyo Alino, The World of Dawning?
16:40:55 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
16:40:58 <Taneb> THE WORLD... OF DAWNING
16:40:58 <HackEgo> 843) <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
16:41:36 <HackEgo> 120) <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
16:41:36 <HackEgo> 281) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
16:41:38 <HackEgo> 654) <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:41:46 <HackEgo> 715) <tswett> Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. <tswett> He lives in Detroit. <tswett> I... think we might have found the wrong one.
16:41:47 <HackEgo> 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
16:41:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's a really tiny DF world I generated with history set to 10,000 years.
16:43:25 <fizzie`> <elliott> `log Sgeo <HackEgo> 2011-10-14.txt:06:38:16: <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping? <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:43:49 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
16:43:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: With the >1k year war?
16:44:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The gist of it is that nearly 9600 of those years were spent in five different "Ages of Goblins", in spite of the fact that goblins became a tiny minority by the 3rd century.
16:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The goblin civs are composed almost entirely of the descendents of abducted humans and dorfs.
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16:45:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You *must* start a fortress.
16:45:17 <elliott> Think of the goblin invasions.
16:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (The elves, near as I can tell, were almost totally eradicated.)
16:46:37 <elliott> OK, seriously, we need a new featured language.
16:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't really checked the wars that much because there's so much goddam history.
16:47:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which language should I feature we seriously need a new one.
16:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, anyway Taneb started generating a 5000 year pocket world and it got up to the 14th Age of Fairytales before DF crashed on him.
16:49:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it crashed when I was reading the legends
16:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh also I dumped the history as XML and the file was 3.5GB.
16:51:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how do you dump it as XML?
16:51:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also there's a 9700 year old goblin who was made a slave by the humans but was later freed and settled down in a tomb.
16:56:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:05:19 <elliott> http://www.humblebundle.com/ Again???????
17:05:27 <elliott> Ooh, roman numerals. Classy.
17:05:39 <elliott> Hey it has Psychonauts. It's that game I've never played.
17:05:42 <elliott> I bet shachaf will tell me to buy it.
17:05:55 <elliott> I haven't played Bastion either. Maybe I should buy this thing.
17:05:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I buy this thing?
17:06:10 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:06:20 <elliott> Haha, you can get on the top contributors list by paying $20 right now
17:06:40 <elliott> Buy "irc.freenode.net #esoteric" for $50 before it's too late.
17:07:09 <Taneb> I'm not buying it, the only game there I want to play I've got on steam and doesn't like my video card
17:07:11 <pikhq_> elliott: It's Psychonauts. Worth playing so much.
17:07:16 <Gregor> Why would we want people to come here >_>
17:07:23 <Taneb> Also, I just spent a lot of money
17:07:27 <elliott> Gregor: It would be SO MUCH FUN.
17:07:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internati-anal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:07:55 -!- elliott has set topic: pOJNFSERIYU90J64IOKTRD http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:08:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: Topic redacted http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:08:18 <elliott> Humble Indie Bundle V work
17:08:18 <elliott> on Mac, Windows, and Linux.
17:08:23 <elliott> Psychonauts was ported to Linux?????
17:08:51 <Taneb> elliott: I vote deadfish to be the featured language
17:09:02 <elliott> Taneb: The article... sort of needs a slight cleanup.
17:09:19 <Taneb> I... don't want to be the one who does that
17:09:30 <elliott> TOO LATE YOU JUST VOLUNTEERED
17:11:26 <pikhq_> elliott: Apparently it was ported.
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17:14:57 <Taneb> elliott, is that acceptable!?
17:15:47 <elliott> Taneb: No, since you actually made it factually incorrect.
17:15:57 <shachaf> elliott: HumbleBundle has Psychonauts?!
17:15:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:16:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I said.
17:16:07 <shachaf> elliott: You should buy it!
17:16:31 <elliott> Well it also has Amnesia: The Dark Descent and I might be tempted to play it?
17:17:02 <elliott> Taneb: Deadfish can deal with >8-bit values.
17:17:14 <Taneb> elliott, not until you square it!
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17:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so OK I'm thinking we should do a succession fortress on that 'goblin' world, except then after a while we make loads of masterwork adamantine weapons and armour, build a self-operating danger room and then abandon it, return in Adventure Mode and emerge as the figurehead of goblin^Wbrainwashed human/dwarf death.
17:25:01 <elliott> I'm not playing Adventure Mode.
17:25:14 <elliott> It is the least fun thnig.
17:25:18 <Taneb> zzo38, what does Prelude.Generalize.(<>>=) do
17:28:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK so I don't know how to float.
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17:29:29 <shachaf> elliott: They even have Linux/OS X ports of Psychonauts!
17:29:37 <zzo38> Taneb: Like >>= but the result values are ignored and it uses the other one instead.
17:29:52 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, I noted that too.
17:29:59 <elliott> Hmm, Bastion ported to Linux? But it's XNA, isn't it?
17:30:26 <Taneb> zzo38, because I am bored and writing documentation
17:30:50 <Taneb> I am writing elliott
17:30:54 <Taneb> elliott elliott elliott
17:30:59 <Taneb> It's fun, everyone should try it
17:31:11 <zzo38> For example getLine <>>= putStrLn will result the input even though it is also copied to the output as well, and (<>>= guard . f) is like filter f
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17:32:24 <zzo38> Taneb: If you write a document for Prelude.Generalize then show me what you have, or even just upload a version including the documentation as long as you make no other changes at all to the program
17:32:35 <Taneb> I've just done bool so far
17:34:26 <Taneb> Could someone explain Alternative's some and many?
17:34:31 <Taneb> I don't see what they do at all
17:34:53 <zzo38> Alternative's some and many can be used with parsers
17:36:05 <zzo38> If <|> means the right side is used if the left side failed, then many means try multiple times until they fail and collect the results.
17:36:15 <zzo38> And, some is similar but at least one.
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17:43:42 <fizzie> All of Bastion, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Psychonauts and LIMBO have been so very much recommended, and I haven't any of them. Oh no.
17:43:44 <elliott> fizzie: It has Bastonauts! And Psychion.
17:44:24 <shachaf> fizzie: It's the game to play.
17:45:52 <fizzie> And I've seen people play LIMBO and it looked nice. And of course Bastion, based on Steam's "community" stuff my wife's brother has been playing it a whole lot.
17:46:04 <Taneb> zzo38, why does (!!!) need Alternative? Surely Applicative would do?
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17:57:19 <Taneb> zzo38, what does fair do?
18:06:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:08:10 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that Reddit thread with return . f . unsafePerformIO?
18:08:31 <Taneb> It's returned with a vengeance
18:09:37 -!- monqy has joined.
18:11:23 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:16:46 <Taneb> @tell Ngevd heheheh
18:16:50 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
18:17:04 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
18:17:24 <boily> @tell elliott bonjour!
18:17:30 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:28:39 <fizzie> Taneb: There is no zzo38. (At least not at this moment.)
18:28:54 <Taneb> This is why tab-completion is a good idea
18:29:00 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 What does fair do?
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19:16:47 <quintopia> what is the length limit on egobot's bfj programs
19:18:58 <Taneb> I don't think there is one
19:19:10 <elliott> quintopia: big, but not infinite
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19:31:59 <olsner> omg, the CANNIBAL DRUG has reached sweden
19:32:19 <olsner> it's worse than DEATHDRUGS
19:32:21 <monqy> whats canniabl drug
19:34:33 <nortti_> drug that eats other drugs?
19:35:33 -!- Gregor has set topic: It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:36:53 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:38:01 -!- Taneb has set topic: DISCUSS ESOLANGS OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:38:26 <oerjan> else is such a lovely keyword, isn't it
19:39:41 <nortti_> why I am suddenly remined of KieliX, line number basic with keywords in finnish
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19:41:10 <elliott> There's no contradiction. There are 3.5 billion women on Earth and 3.5 billion men and still it's sometimes hard to find a date ;-) What we need is a Haskell dating service.
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19:42:42 <oerjan> "Are you lazy, yet still functional? Try the Haskell dating service!"
19:44:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Just look at those enormous monads.
19:45:19 <olsner> ... and then the monad transformer spam
19:45:42 <Taneb> If you remove the Monad requirement for MonadPlus's, you end up with something slightly less useful than a Monoid
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19:47:52 <elliott> You end up with exactly a Monoid, don't you? Just lifted a kind higher for some reason.
19:48:09 <Taneb> It's a Monoid, with some broken instances
19:48:33 <elliott> Oh, right, the laws are all messed up.
19:48:43 <elliott> Taneb: Are you buying the Bumble Hundle?
19:48:54 <Taneb> Nah, spending money on other things atm
19:49:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey figure out when the statistical best time to buy the Bundle is to make the average the lowest so that I can get Bastion for the lowest price.
19:49:18 <Taneb> elliott, as soon as possible
19:49:31 <elliott> Taneb: Are you sure? I figure early adopters pay more.
19:49:38 <elliott> As time goes on the cheapskates will pick it up and the average will go down.
19:49:41 <Taneb> People have a reason to pay above the average, so the average keeps rising
19:49:52 <elliott> That's true. But a lot of people already own Bastion.
19:50:03 <Taneb> I already own Amnesia
19:50:09 <Taneb> I paid for it TWICE
19:50:11 <Taneb> Neither time worked
19:51:15 <Taneb> But I've never heard of Bastion, what is Bastion
19:51:31 <fizzie> The average's gone up from $6.68 to $7.20 in the last... two hours or so.
19:51:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISCUSS THIS GENTLEMAN THAT HAD HIS FACE EATEN OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:44 <Taneb> elliott, buy before it is too late!
19:52:24 <elliott> I don't think it's possible for the average to rise above what I'm willing to pay for it.
19:52:29 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:52:47 <Taneb> What are you willing to pay for it?
19:53:28 <quintopia> even though i already own psychonauts on steam...
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19:56:35 -!- boily has set topic: DISCUSS EUCALYPTUS TREES AND OR MAYBE LIKE SO TOTALLY | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:56:47 <boily> I'm ruining myself on all those bundles...
19:57:37 <elliott> I've bought N bundles and played 0 bundle games.
19:58:44 <Taneb> I quite enjoyed Machinarium
20:01:36 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:04:02 <fizzie> I've bought five bundles now; been skipping them, lately.
20:06:18 <elliott> I skipped the Botanica thing because it looked rubbish.
20:06:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:06:32 <elliott> (That wasn't actually Android exclusive, bizarrely.)
20:07:13 <boily> my friend convinced me to try out osmos.
20:07:20 <nortti_> I have this friend who wants to be referred gomrade Osku who apways buys one of these bundles for 10€ or more and then proceeds to download them using bittorrent
20:07:39 <boily> osmos is stressful!
20:08:19 <elliott> boily: I remember that one. I think.
20:08:47 <boily> elliott: it's like a 2D katamari with weird abstract colourful circles.
20:09:28 <boily> very nice and immersive, all with the soothing soundtrack.
20:09:46 <elliott> Doesn't sound stressful :P
20:11:36 <shachaf> I played Machinarium from the bundle!
20:11:54 <boily> elliott: it is. you just don't know you are stressed until you stop playing.
20:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: "play machinarium"
20:12:11 <elliott> boily: hehe, I think that applies to a lot of games
20:14:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:17:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/dfworldgen/comments/thn00/working_on_generating_a_10000year_massive_world/c4okccr
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20:18:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also terrible at assembling a stable computer, apparently.
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20:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also elliott re that Psychonauts Linux port, I've heard that Team Meat made really shitty Linux ports so they could get into the HIB and never updated them again.
20:39:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:39:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes but come on, it's Double Fine.
20:39:44 <elliott> There is *trust* in my heart.
20:40:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It's sad that people are exploiting the Humble Bundle's wonderful cross-platform initiative like that.)
20:41:14 <elliott> I mean, they're practically single-handedly dominating the Linux games market by requiring ports.
20:43:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Tim_Schafer_2011.jpg Doesn't this look like a guy you can trust to make a good Linux port?
20:44:12 <elliott> Apparently Ron Gilbert uses emacs.
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20:48:06 <monqy> tf2 pay what you want
20:56:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's indie?
21:00:30 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:02:43 <monqy> http://store.steampowered.com/sub/14499/
21:04:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, you never realised what was indie?
21:07:44 <nortti_> indie is work done independed of big bad corporations like Touhou Project
21:08:25 <nortti_> erm. Touhou Project is indie work, not corporation
21:09:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, even better, it was 2 steps from an armed marksdorf.
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21:17:24 <itidus20> so the term indie seems ill-defined at best
21:19:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Double Fine has 65 employees.
21:19:57 <elliott> They might not be indie, but they're hardly "mainstream".
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21:23:37 <itidus20> I have had negative, yet enduring, opinions about X since day one.
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21:47:16 <itidus20> if an individual develops a game on their own time, unrelated to any company they are a part of, and if that individual owns all the associated intellectual property, then i imagine that at that point it's an indie game
21:47:34 <itidus20> "unrelated to" probably isn't formal enough
21:50:01 <itidus20> if you have no ties to any companies then it must be indie
21:50:40 <quintopia> indie just means you receive no funds from nintendo, sony, ms, or EA
21:50:58 <itidus20> because thats the publishing side of things
21:51:13 <quintopia> you are independent of major publishers
21:51:18 <itidus20> is the same game indie or non-indie based on who publishes it?
21:52:12 <quintopia> they feel indie, but are very big and have steam
21:52:59 <itidus20> i suppose a game can be indie if it gets re-published by a major publisher after it has already been published
21:53:30 <quintopia> yeah but then it has totally sold out
21:55:29 <itidus20> ok so at this point we see that companies have all started bringing in an appstore of one kind or another
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21:56:23 <itidus20> in the case of xbox the restriction is you have to make it run in dot net..
21:57:11 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: well i'm specficially speaking of XBLIG .. i.. better double check
21:59:02 <elliott> happy australian mailman mailing lists reminder day
21:59:24 <itidus20> well they have to use XNA. and XNA requires dot net
22:02:25 <itidus20> on another note "iPhone applications, like Mac OS X, are written in Objective-C,[3] with some elements of an application able to be written in C or C++."
22:03:40 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: i dunno man.. the actual limits seem quite complicated
22:04:20 <fizzie> Apple is probably the cause of most Objective-C code by now.
22:04:57 <fizzie> At least it's (AFAIK) actually a C superset, unlike C++.
22:05:41 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, nothing's worse than C++.
22:05:45 <elliott> Okay, apart from the things that are worse than C++.
22:05:47 <shachaf> Objective C is a superset of C because they made the syntax so weird that no sane C compile would be able to compile it.
22:05:52 <itidus20> wiki says "After Steve Jobs left Apple Inc., he started the company NeXT. In 1988, NeXT licensed Objective-C from StepStone"
22:06:12 <elliott> It is 2012 and people saying "wiki" for "Wikipedia" still bugs me. :(
22:06:43 <itidus20> i wasn't referring to the esolang wiki
22:06:52 <shachaf> elliott: Wikipedia is the first website that anyone can edit.
22:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I've just realised that there are a lot more married dorfs.
22:09:37 <BlueProtoman> Would you happen to have an idea about why I still can't get loops to work? I've stepped through my code by hand, inserted debugging statements, etc. and I still don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not using any weird gcc-specific or low-level tricks. http://ideone.com/tMRpf
22:09:58 <BlueProtoman> (This is for a Brainfuck interpreter, for those who just joined in on my saga)
22:10:47 <elliott> I assign... fizzie to the case.
22:11:10 <shachaf> I assign elliott to assigning people to cases.
22:12:26 <itidus20> fizzie and oerjan working on the same case... this sounds like a buddy cop movie
22:12:51 <BlueProtoman> I'm trying in particular to run a program that prints factorials infinitely. I know it works because it runs fine on IDEone.
22:13:49 <fizzie> I'm asleep, it's not a good idea to assign me.
22:14:31 <itidus20> i'm pondering whether app store games are indie
22:16:01 <BlueProtoman> I would say most are, you'd really have to look at the company itself to make the distinction.
22:16:24 <BlueProtoman> For instance, the (really, really shitty) Android port of Contra 4 was made by Konami. Yeah, indie, OK.
22:17:19 <itidus20> well to me, the one who runs the app store becomes the publisher
22:17:47 <BlueProtoman> So then Microsoft published everything on XBLA?
22:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> BlueProtoman, is this just a vanilla BF interp in $language?
22:18:39 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's a vanilla Brainfuck interpreter in C++11.
22:18:52 <BlueProtoman> I do plan on implementing Extended Brainfuck later, but now I just wanna get this done.
22:19:26 <elliott> "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck." -- daniel b cristofani
22:19:43 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: well.. XBLIG and iPhone app stores are the cheapest to participate (i think (i havent looked up android) )
22:19:44 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results.
22:20:28 <elliott> Brainfuck derivatives are pretty unpopular in the community because there's a gigantic number of them already and they're rarely interesting
22:20:39 <BlueProtoman> elliott: I'm not making any of my own, just implementing a few.
22:20:45 <itidus20> XBLA is something like WiiWare but i don't know how much it costs to get in
22:20:56 * elliott was just explaining the sentiment
22:21:09 <BlueProtoman> Noted. I promise not to create a new BF derivative.
22:21:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever implemented Csbjogvdl?
22:21:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover doesn't really code.
22:22:03 <elliott> (Actually he doesn't really do much of anything.)
22:22:13 <itidus20> shachaf: is that a welsh brainfuck derivative?
22:22:31 <BlueProtoman> This is a channel that appears primarily to coders. I don't even...
22:23:02 <elliott> Well, you can be a computer scientist without being a coder. (But you won't be a very good one.)
22:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results.
22:23:48 <shachaf> elliott: Thanks for insulting every computer scientist in the first half of the last century!
22:24:08 <elliott> shachaf: (That was more like proto-computer-science.)
22:24:08 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover, I promise not to create a new Brainfuck derivative.
22:24:19 <elliott> BlueProtoman: It may be too late.
22:24:27 <elliott> You never know when your brain might become a brick.
22:24:55 <elliott> Snarky comment about definitely not needing it for that.
22:25:46 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: Keep in mind that elliott *is* school.
22:26:21 <elliott> No, I just *am* school. Apparently.
22:26:28 <elliott> I am the abstract concept of school itself.
22:26:40 <shachaf> What! I thought you were the concrete concept.
22:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, the way BF is normally specified is kind of dumb.
22:26:54 <elliott> We don't have concrete in England.
22:27:00 <elliott> BlueProtoman: (I don't have a degree, though.)
22:27:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i have no idea what's wrong with your program. cut you give a debug trace of a program which fails?
22:27:34 <oerjan> (it _might_ be in the details of c++ i don't know, of course)
22:27:51 <HackEgo> 2012-05-17.txt:17:53:25: <elliott> itidus20 *is* Australia.
22:27:52 <HackEgo> 2009-01-11.txt:23:04:36: <oklopol> dewi is australian
22:28:24 <HackEgo> 2012-05-31.txt:22:27:43: <elliott> `log \*is\* australia
22:29:05 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You should start off at -40, to make it fair.
22:29:28 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Output is here. http://codepad.org/LUozzZvS The BF program's coming up.
22:30:53 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: um your first paste looks like - not much...
22:31:18 <BlueProtoman> And yet the BF program's supposed to go indefinitely.
22:32:09 <oerjan> it doesn't even have any of your debug statements
22:32:28 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: OK, then I'll post another version with them.
22:33:58 <BlueProtoman> It's probably a very tiny error, but I don't know what the hell it could be.
22:34:34 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, those work. The issue is nested loops.
22:36:06 <itidus20> ahh probably the bot isn't here
22:36:50 <BlueProtoman> Ah, this one's broken. Output in a second, just putting in a debug statement.
22:39:06 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax.
22:39:46 <BlueProtoman> Is it bad that I'm trying to write a BF interpreter, but can't actually program in BF?
22:40:06 <BlueProtoman> Would it be if I were trying to implement, say, Lisp or C?
22:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You presumably understand /how/ to program in BF, but can't handle all the accounting required to actually do any complex operation.
22:41:45 <BlueProtoman> I know what each instruction does, I know the standards, etc.
22:42:02 <BlueProtoman> Ask me to write anything in it, and I'll point to the name.
22:42:11 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: um that doesn't look broken to me...
22:42:59 <elliott> i can't write bf programs either
22:43:07 <elliott> it's much harder than writing an interp
22:43:14 <elliott> 23:39 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax.
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22:43:22 <fizzie> There you go; but really, I'm asleep.
22:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there's the informal one Muller gives with his interpreter which is the standard way to specify the language.
22:44:24 <BlueProtoman> Oh, shit. I confused my debug statements as garbage output somehow.
22:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Put it this way, I've never seen it specified another way.
22:44:42 <BlueProtoman> That simple program works fine here. But Factorial's still puzzling me.
22:45:00 <Phantom_Hoover> And definitely not anywhere that a person would learn about it
22:48:23 <itidus20> only barbarian monsters would program with it
22:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm almost tempted to add a section to the esolangs page giving an actual grammar.
22:48:56 <itidus20> oh.. don't pay attention to me................
22:49:24 <BlueProtoman> So, itidus20, how can I fix my interpreter, then? :)
22:49:36 <itidus20> i don't know, thats why i said don't pay attention to me
22:49:56 <BlueProtoman> Running this program; http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/squares.b just brings the pointer below the first element, somehow.
22:50:28 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: it _looks_ to me like the factorial one might be actually ending the main loop and doing the three .'s in the final comment :P
22:50:31 <itidus20> i'm not here for coding or for computer science.. no infact i am here for the social life
22:51:16 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i'm speaking about the debug trace
22:51:35 <BlueProtoman> itidus20: Social life, on IRC. Yeah, and I'm both of New York State's senators.
22:51:44 <fizzie> Have nextInstruction print, before execution, the locations (offsets) of the program and memory pointer and the values at those points; then compare that sort of trace with one you get by running the program on (virtual) pen and paper, and find the place of first deviation.
22:52:48 <fizzie> (And then figure out why it does the wrong thing at that point.)
22:54:50 <elliott> BlueProtoman: this channel is pretty social :P
22:56:13 <BlueProtoman> Odd, currentinstruction ahd index (both of which are char*) show characters when I print them, and not addresses.
22:58:43 <BlueProtoman> How do I convert them to just a pointer, rather than a whole C-string?
22:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all three of the marksdorfs are actually training at the archery range
22:59:54 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: hm after going through the trace as best i can, i suspect that it is _not_ [ and ] that does anything wrong, _assuming_ it's actually taking the right branch at each step, that's consistent with a path through the entire program
23:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I have 66 dorfs, huge amounts of clutter and temperature on and it's still running at 100FPS.
23:00:22 <fizzie> BlueProtoman: If you want a single dubious point, >'s tape-boundary checking looks like it. If the test fires, you're already one past the end (tape.data() + tape.size() does not point to a valid part of tape); so you both append a 0, and increment index, leaving you again at tape.data()+tape.size(), an invalid location. The test should be after ++index, presumably.
23:00:40 <oerjan> i suspect it's actually the tape values. maybe what fizzie said.
23:01:52 <BlueProtoman> Thank you very, very much! You've just saved my AP CS grade!
23:02:56 <elliott> BlueProtoman: You have to write a BF interpreter for your CS grade?
23:03:14 <oerjan> elliott: _very_ hardcore
23:03:14 <elliott> fizzie: Good sleephelping.
23:03:17 <BlueProtoman> elliott: No, I chose to. We were given a final project that we have a lot of control over.
23:03:35 <BlueProtoman> It could be pretty much anything. My classmate did an Android game, for instance.
23:04:11 <BlueProtoman> I had one in the works as a toy project, anyway.
23:09:38 <BlueProtoman> Question. I've got summer break coming up soon, and I'm trying to decide what CS-related venture to take. Which do you think I could learn the most from; creating a game with someone, studying data structures (I mean the theory, I know how to use stack, queue, list, etc. classes), or learning Python? Or maybe something else?
23:10:29 <elliott> what languages do you know already?
23:11:16 <elliott> those horizons need expanding, C++ and Java are not really some of the better languages out there :p
23:11:20 <elliott> (and are ~fairly similar to start with)
23:11:33 <elliott> you could combine the Python thing and the game thing, perhaps
23:11:34 <BlueProtoman> I'm in my university's CS Honors Program. Due to the way the core Honors curriculum is set up, I won't be able to take the Data Structures Honors class until next fall.
23:15:24 <elliott> I don't like Python much, but it's certainly better than C++
23:15:40 <elliott> and you'll probably have fun with it
23:16:18 <elliott> I'm not sure what the best Python learning material is these days. Probably avoid Dive into Python?
23:16:37 <BlueProtoman> I've dabbled in Python before, but nothing serious. I do know that the official docs are really good.
23:16:42 <elliott> shachaf: Is the official Python tutorial any good?
23:16:53 <shachaf> elliott: I don't know. I never read it.
23:17:03 <elliott> ISTR it being a bit dry, but I don't really remember.
23:17:20 <shachaf> The official Haskell tutorial is pretty good.
23:17:28 <elliott> It's not awfully pleasant.
23:17:39 <shachaf> In an elitist "makes me feel good about myself when other people can't understand it" sort of way, of course.
23:17:52 <BlueProtoman> elliott: So what GUI library would you use instead? I hear bad things about wxWidgets. Whatever GUI library I use, it has to be cross-platform and native-looking.
23:17:53 <elliott> BlueProtoman: And it's probably worse to learn it with another programming language, since it generally maps badly to other languages.
23:18:02 <elliott> (Heck, it doesn't even map to C++ well.)
23:18:12 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: HTML5+JAVASCRIPT+CSS=GUI OF THE FUTURE
23:18:13 <elliott> BlueProtoman: I wouldn't learn a GUI library now, unless you really really want to for some reason.
23:18:20 <elliott> They're generally very unpleasant things.
23:18:29 <elliott> (And nothing is "cross-platform and native-looking" everywhere, sorry.)
23:18:48 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: A desktop is just a thin client with a thick server hiding underneath!
23:18:53 <elliott> Not native-looking on plenty of platforms.
23:19:18 <shachaf> You should probably learn Objective C and Cocoa.
23:19:19 <elliott> e.g. OS X, and on X11 (considering native from either a GNOME or KDE or Xfce perspective)
23:19:34 <shachaf> You don't need an iDevice.
23:20:13 <elliott> Is BlueProtoman taking shachaf seriously?
23:20:39 <BlueProtoman> The Android SDK is a real possibility, though.
23:20:46 <elliott> I would suggest not learning that, either.
23:21:07 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: OK, so, seriously, why would you learn a GUI?
23:22:11 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: So I can make non-game/non-console interfaces?
23:22:24 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Even though I have an Android device?
23:22:46 <elliott> One, it's Java. Two, it's awful.
23:22:55 <BlueProtoman> elliott: So what the hell would I use instead, then?
23:23:13 <elliott> Three, even if you have an amazing burning desire to write Android apps that goes deep right into your soul, it's only going to impair you in the future, because you'll have spent a bunch of time learning a really awful API.
23:23:34 <elliott> BlueProtoman: I would write things that aren't GUI apps, at least for a while.
23:23:55 <BlueProtoman> But I want to do game dev. How the hell would I reach Android users, then? Whatever happened to broadening your market?
23:23:56 <elliott> (Hell, I'd avoid touching GUI code even now. It is not a very enjoyable experience.)
23:24:32 <elliott> Well, "GUI" isn't the same thing as "game programming", for a start.
23:24:47 <elliott> Anyway, if your motives are economic rather than learning, then that obviously changes a lot. (But you need the latter for the former.)
23:25:32 <BlueProtoman> Of course. But porting software is great practice for CS majors, is it not?
23:25:54 <BlueProtoman> And just because I do game programming doesn't mean the only programs I write will be games.
23:26:01 <elliott> Well, uh, I wouldn't say so.
23:26:54 <elliott> Porting software is ugly business and does not really exercise any of the truly relevant skills that you'd care about as a CS major.
23:27:34 <shachaf> The greatest accomplishment of many accomplished computer scientists is porting.
23:28:23 <shachaf> Remember that great paper Turing published about how you can port any program to his machine?
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23:31:11 * oerjan thinks this notion of porting may include most of his programs in recent times
23:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Hah, a goblin snatcher grabbed a hunter's baby off her.
23:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for fuck's sake you idiot don't kill things by pouring expensive ammo into them.
23:40:35 <shachaf> I kill things by making them invent BF derivatives.
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23:52:23 <Phantom_Hoover> A goblin snatcher attacks! The troops are sortied! The marksdwarves catch sight of their enemy, draw a bead, fire...
23:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> And successfully cripple a tiger standing in the general vicinity minding its own business.
23:53:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The snatcher, meanwhile, outruns the rest of the soldiers.