←2012-06-01 2012-06-02 2012-06-03→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:03:42 <david_werecat> Optimization 37% done and I'm not even optimizing the decoy setup
00:04:00 <david_werecat> Besides the maximum number of decoys
00:04:40 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/ejTG
00:04:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_anticipation: 0.0
00:04:48 <ais523> bleh, size limit again…
00:05:14 <david_werecat> Is that the full anticipation?
00:05:24 <ais523> no, I added in the cases needed to beat dreadnaught
00:05:33 <david_werecat> Of course.
00:05:34 <ais523> I'm going to delete some of the five-cycle offset clear cases that aren't used in practice
00:06:07 <ais523> I feel justified in this sort of constant-tweaking because it's working around hill limitations rather than program limitations
00:06:17 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/PBLP
00:06:22 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_anticipation: 35.9
00:06:45 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust vs david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
00:06:46 <ais523> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -30
00:06:48 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust wins.
00:07:09 <ais523> I can generate the full anticipation easily enough but the hill won't accept it
00:07:41 <ais523> interestingly, it manages to get dreadnaught to run off the tape (!)
00:07:50 <ais523> at least on sieve polarity
00:07:54 <ais523> (on kettle it locks it in place instead)
00:08:36 <david_werecat> I think that's because of the way I put in the anti-triplock in the attack scheme.
00:08:48 <david_werecat> I still don't know how to do that properly...
00:10:01 <ais523> basically, [+[+]][+[+]]> is the sort of pattern you want if you want to be 100% immune to both triplocks and vibrations
00:10:24 <ais523> (although it won't beat anticipation, incidentally)
00:11:15 <ais523> a triplock requires three ] in a row, and there aren't there
00:11:33 <ais523> and a vibration relies on you not checking for two cycles in a row, and that does
00:12:20 <david_werecat> Okay, I think I understand that now.
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00:13:13 <david_werecat> I'm going to try to quickly plug that into dreadnought and see the results.
00:14:18 <ais523> that's a [+] replacement
00:14:35 <ais523> if you wanted a different sort of clear loop, you'd replace each of the +s with everything you wanted inside the loop
00:15:15 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_vibration_and_triplock (>)*8(>[+[+]][+[+]])*21
00:15:18 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_beats_vibration_and_triplock: 20.8
00:15:20 * ais523 vaguely wonders if it beats anything else
00:15:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/8ff271d4/save.php?hash=bb8ae3da6cffef9d87d8764331b10e7c
00:15:42 <ais523> huh, all of olsner's programs, for one
00:15:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.4
00:15:53 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:15:56 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.0
00:16:01 <ais523> also, waterfall2
00:16:19 <ais523> and counterpoke, hahaha
00:16:59 <ais523> the other results are expected (it beats programs that require the opponent to use decoys, and the things it's tuned to beat)
00:17:16 <ais523> so now, you're beating everything but anticipation and counterpoke
00:17:23 <ais523> I actually really really like anticipation
00:17:45 <david_werecat> It's a really good idea, just a little big.
00:17:47 <ais523> such a pity it doesn't compress well
00:17:59 <ais523> it's a very simple program really, just all the cases have to be written out by hand and there are thousands
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00:20:08 <david_werecat> If only the hill allowed something like bzip2 compression
00:20:21 <ais523> you can't run a program while it's bzipped :)
00:20:49 <david_werecat> Server side unpack?
00:21:19 <ais523> I think the issue's space used in memory while the program is running, rather than bandwidth
00:21:31 <ais523> hmm, the waterfalls beat dreadnought on one polarity
00:21:48 <ais523> I guess it's misdetecting on the other polarity, and the fallbacks don't work
00:22:27 <ais523> dreadnaught seems far from unbeatable, the more I look at it
00:22:48 <ais523> and, heh, on very long tapes there are draws, I'm guessing due to time out
00:24:29 <david_werecat> Dreadnought shouldn't be too hard to beat, it'll just take some time.
00:25:17 <ais523> counterpoke seems to beat it comprehensively, but I'm thinking more of tweaking existing strategies to beat it
00:25:35 * ais523 watches waterfall2 beat dreadnought on a long tape on kettle polarity
00:25:45 <ais523> then I guess I'll watch it lose on sieve, to see why
00:28:39 <david_werecat> It looks like waterfall2 waits for dreanought even when dreadnought has passed onto the next space
00:29:16 <ais523> 3 has fallbacks against that sort of thing
00:29:20 <ais523> but they probably won't work
00:29:28 <ais523> it falls back to triplocking in emergencies, and you have counter-triplock code
00:30:27 <david_werecat> It looks like the reason why dreadnought continues past is also due to the counter-triplock code
00:33:25 <david_werecat> Actually, it seems that dreadnought moves onto the [-] part of the clear routine on normal polarity and so it move on after 2 cycles instead of 3
00:33:43 <david_werecat> *moves*
00:34:13 <david_werecat> So really dreadnought wins by accident.
00:35:13 <ais523> this is quite common against waterfall, it's really complex /and/ really fragile
00:36:05 <ais523> getting it to the top of the hill required lots of constant-tweaking just to avoid coincidences where enemy programs got knocked onto a different part of their clear algo
00:36:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if an inline clear can be modified to take constant time?
00:37:02 <ais523> it'd be awesome if it could
00:37:28 <ais523> but it seems awkward, it has beautifully hard to time constructs like [>] in
00:40:36 <ais523> hmm, the duration depends on the distance it has to move and the amount it has to clear
00:40:56 <ais523> using an inefficient clear where we only change the value by 1 at a time until it's zeroed makes one of the values constant
00:42:03 <ais523> and I guess we could use a counter or something for the tape length, copying it back and forth between a cell and the next one
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00:48:37 <ais523> doable, but may end up too long /and/ too slow
00:50:01 <david_werecat> It might not be too long
00:52:32 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:52:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 23.2
00:52:54 <ais523> not bad
00:54:04 <david_werecat> That gives me an idea...
00:54:43 <ais523> ooh, I think I've found the perfect clear loop for counterpoke :)
00:55:11 <ais523> although this will suck against defence
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00:57:46 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/e0870cd3/save.php?hash=d8e637c825b5fda9f9a5256ab546e67d
00:57:50 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 66.2
00:58:18 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:58:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 69.8
00:59:02 <david_werecat> I just remembered why that was a bad idea.
00:59:37 <elliott> it seems to be getting worse
00:59:39 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>[>>>>(+)*128[+]]>>>[<<<(+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:59:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 27.9
00:59:51 <ais523> beats dreadnaught :)
01:00:14 <ais523> beats quite a lot of things, actually
01:00:17 <itidus20> 69.8 is a good score though eh
01:00:40 <david_werecat> Yeah, even with it's new losses.
01:01:00 <itidus20> scrolls up.. oh wow 71
01:01:18 <ais523> I came to the realisation that /even if/ you have a really really large offset on your offset turtle, it's still going to go faster than a standard clear
01:02:08 <david_werecat> 71 was before countermeasures, so a little unrealistic.
01:02:18 <itidus20> don't get me wrong i couldn't write a bfjouster for the life of me, but i know that 71.2 has got to be a serious score
01:02:24 <ais523> countermeasures = everyone coming up with creative new ways to beat your program?
01:02:29 <ais523> itidus20: well, I consider 30 to be a nice solid score
01:02:35 <david_werecat> Yes.
01:02:40 <ais523> over 70, you have to have a serious attempt at beating /every/ other program
01:03:55 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/TLKR
01:03:59 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:04:01 <ais523> huh?
01:04:26 <david_werecat> itidus20: The average on the hill is around 28 or so.
01:04:35 <elliott> ais523: syntax error, probably
01:04:42 <itidus20> i guess it's not about twinking
01:04:53 <ais523> missed an open paren somewhere, I think
01:05:11 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/eQgF
01:05:14 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:05:16 <ais523> bleh
01:05:27 <ais523> "unmatchd ]"
01:05:31 <ais523> *"unmatched ]"
01:05:59 <david_werecat> Lots of unmatched loops and perenthesis, looking at egojsout.
01:06:18 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/IdEN
01:06:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 11.4
01:06:26 <ais523> hmm, not as high as I'd hoped
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01:06:46 <ais523> and now it loses to juggernaught
01:08:07 <ais523> seems the clear loop in omega_counterpoke is just impractically slow for the situations it ends up in
01:08:24 <ais523> counterpoke's strength in skipping decoys, the strength of a careless clear is that it doesn't care about decoys
01:08:54 <ais523> so both omega_turtle and counterpoke are better than omega_counterpoke
01:08:58 <ais523> interesting experiment, anyway
01:12:14 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_o8 http://tinypaste.com/592fbfd1/save.php?hash=7e4c4922ec72a14c90a7e6312b821d59
01:12:17 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 26.5
01:13:02 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_o8 <
01:13:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 0.0
01:13:27 <david_werecat> It seems that increasing the range of the offset clear doesn't help much either.
01:17:51 <ais523> I wouldn't expect it to
01:17:59 <ais523> 3's enough to get past trivial trails and the like
01:18:12 <ais523> anything else, it's probably not going to be worth doing anything other than brute-forcing it
01:21:08 <ais523> because it's quite likely to be a flag
01:22:17 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:23:50 -!- MDude has joined.
01:24:10 <david_werecat> Hmm, the optimizer just found a better config for dreadnought, but I can't extract it in mid-run.
01:25:53 -!- yiyus has joined.
01:27:43 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<([{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:27:46 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 9.4
01:27:58 <ais523> it's pretty experimental, I didn't expect it to work well
01:28:02 <ais523> now to see how it fails
01:29:48 <ais523> oh, duh, that was really really stupid
01:30:29 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:30:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 12.2
01:34:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:17 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
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01:34:27 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:30 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.0
01:34:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.2
01:34:50 <ais523> looks like I guessed right first time :)
01:35:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>[((>>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:17 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:25 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:29 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:39 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:36:16 <ais523> ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust vs ais523_triplock3.bfjoust XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX -2 ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust wins.
01:36:18 <ais523> hahahaha
01:38:03 <ais523> oh, obviously, they're just both waiting for each other
01:39:24 <david_werecat> That's the problem with programming defense, it doesn't work so well again other defense programs.
01:39:43 <Gregor> ais523 is, I'm sure, ruefully aware of that.
01:40:14 <ais523> not really rueful, it's pretty easy to change to a counter-defence rush after a few tens of thousands of cycles
01:40:57 <ais523> oh, /ouch/, there's an obvious bug in skyscraper
01:42:26 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:42:29 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:44:18 <ais523> and another, which is less easily fixable
01:47:03 <david_werecat> Optimization 89% done... it'll probabbly only be another tenth of a point anyways.
01:47:58 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*20[]<(+++++[[[[[[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[--
01:47:59 <david_werecat> Dreadnought was surprisingly close to what the current optimizer found, despite being unoptimized
01:47:59 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:48:00 <ais523> -[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%45
01:48:06 <ais523> err, that didn't fit all one line :)
01:48:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper http://sprunge.us/VjDE
01:48:52 <david_werecat> I wondered what would happen with long lines on irc...
01:48:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 14.8
01:49:00 <ais523> heh, and it was worse anyway
01:49:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:49:08 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:50:32 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:50:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 17.2
01:51:16 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.9
01:51:27 <ais523> experimenting with different sorts of clear loop
01:51:33 <ais523> I thought a large offset clear might work well with that algo
01:51:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:54 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 20.9
01:52:01 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:04 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:52:11 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:14 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 19.2
01:52:22 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:25 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.6
01:52:34 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:37 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 22.1
01:52:45 <ais523> let's stick with this version
01:53:57 <ais523> I guess I could plausibly call it attack9
01:54:01 <ais523> because it's defend9 but a rush program
01:54:32 <ais523> and thus can be defeated by all the usual sorts of things that beat defend9
01:56:23 <david_werecat> It seems that a major loss area is around where Deewiant and Gregor's programs are.
01:57:21 <elliott> monqy: do you have me for converting to jiyva
01:57:22 <elliott> just checking
01:58:11 <monqy> don't worry the character is actually ok now that ive gotten used to it
02:01:17 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:01:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:03:41 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256])%768
02:03:44 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.1
02:03:46 <ais523> turtle fix
02:04:21 <ais523> but yes, there's a very easy way to beat skyscraper, which is something that some players do out of habit and some don't
02:04:57 <ais523> heh, and now insidious, skyscraper and counterpoke are all next to each other on the leaderboard
02:05:44 <ais523> btw, dreadnaught has started losing to slowpoke, if I read the leaderboard correctly; I'm not sure why
02:06:04 <ais523> have you figured out skyscraper's strategy yet, btw?
02:08:04 <david_werecat> From what I can see, it detects the polarity of the enemy and builds several large decoys that are more difficult for that polarity.
02:08:15 <david_werecat> Although I'm not sure that's correct.
02:09:38 <ais523> yep, that's it
02:09:53 <ais523> it's setting the decoys to whatever polarity the enemy has trouble clearing
02:09:58 <ais523> effectively making there twice as many
02:10:01 <elliott> ais523: thank you for using the correct polarity names btw
02:10:47 <ais523> you have an interesting definition of "correct" :)
02:13:56 <ais523> combining skyscraper with counterpoke could be interesting
02:14:05 <ais523> but I'm not sure if I have the mental energy to write that right now
02:14:18 <ais523> probably only on long tapes, skyscraper sacrifices short ones
02:16:45 <david_werecat> Optimization complete!
02:16:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:16:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 23.8
02:17:10 <ais523> hmph
02:17:20 <ais523> and that /looked/ like a straight improvement, as well
02:18:06 <ais523> oh, I completely messed up the c/p
02:18:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:18:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:18:49 <ais523> that's better :)
02:19:47 <ais523> now it's mostly Gregor it isn't beating
02:20:06 <ais523> and huh, that clear loop is written in a nonsensical manner
02:21:09 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:21:12 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:21:19 <ais523> that's better, even though it's equivalent
02:21:42 <ais523> next step is timer clear, I guess, as it's struggling against defence
02:21:54 <ais523> or, hmm
02:22:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:22:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:22:13 <ais523> much simpler :)
02:22:27 <david_werecat> And better scoring too!
02:23:16 <ais523> I meant, a much simpler fix than timer clear
02:23:23 <ais523> now it's getting triplocked…
02:23:27 * ais523 checks whre
02:23:28 <ais523> *where
02:26:40 <ais523> found it
02:27:46 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%256])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:27:49 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 30.5
02:27:59 <ais523> huh, what did that screw up?
02:28:04 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:28:07 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:29:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 29.1
02:29:20 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:23 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:36 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:39 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:57 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:00 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 24.6
02:30:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])}])%2560])}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:54 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:31:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:09 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:31:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.6
02:32:25 <elliott> hi
02:33:01 <ais523> hi!
02:33:24 <ais523> now skyscraper's doing better than slowrush
02:33:28 <ais523> this program isn't meant to do this well help
02:33:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/dbb9314c/save.php?hash=62e33e11c2a65678f411f084883c46a4
02:33:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 67.4
02:33:59 <ais523> heh, dreadnought and skyscraper /draw/
02:34:44 <david_werecat> funny, I didn't even have skyscraper in the optimization set
02:35:55 <myndzi> i'm not feeling well, what is all this mess
02:35:56 <myndzi> :P
02:36:04 <ais523> myndzi: we're jousting
02:36:18 <ais523> david_werecat came up with dreadnought which /almost/ beat everything
02:36:23 <shachaf> \o/
02:36:23 <myndzi> |
02:36:23 <myndzi> /|
02:36:27 <ais523> but I came up with a range of new programs to beat it
02:36:31 <shachaf> hi myndzi\o/
02:36:33 <shachaf> hi myndzi \o/
02:36:34 <myndzi> |
02:36:34 <myndzi> >\
02:37:29 <david_werecat> Now I'm optimizing only against skyscraper
02:37:46 <elliott> that sounds unwise
02:37:58 <david_werecat> Just for fun
02:38:28 <ais523> oh wtf, that was a pretty amazing reason for skyscraper losing on sieve
02:38:30 <myndzi> well, i mean what all is new? ;)
02:38:58 <myndzi> i just got done coding for like 4 days @ 16 hours so my brain doesn't want to read these
02:39:18 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{.(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:39:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 31.5
02:39:24 <myndzi> i just saw a bunch of symbols and was like o, people be playing around eh?
02:39:30 <ais523> err, whoops
02:40:08 <ais523> not easily fixable, apparently :)
02:40:30 <myndzi> go go slowrush hang in there!!!
02:40:31 <myndzi> ;)
02:40:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%100}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%156])%768
02:40:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_skyscraper: 34.8
02:40:56 <ais523> better :)
02:41:32 <ais523> that makes it work a bit better against dreadnought and space_elevator
02:41:36 <ais523> and is a nicely generic fix, I hope
02:41:55 <myndzi> i think you guys are just throwing the symbols in a random number generator anymore
02:41:58 <myndzi> ;)
02:42:01 <quintopia> i need to get around to fixingspace elevator
02:42:15 <ais523> was space_elevator ever #1? I can't remember
02:42:17 <ais523> I guess so
02:42:24 <ais523> what would you be fixing it for? modern strategy?
02:42:39 <quintopia> it does a great decoy build butit clears too slow to win
02:42:51 <quintopia> somainnly fixing the rush part
02:43:08 <ais523> sometimes the simple clear loops are the best
02:43:15 <quintopia> yep
02:43:26 <ais523> elliott: you'll be glad to hear that skyscraper is probably the best moderately good program that sacrifices short tape lengths
02:43:38 <ais523> which was your strategy, IIRC
02:43:43 <ais523> err, first moderately good
02:43:55 <elliott> hehe
02:44:02 <elliott> it was indeed
02:44:05 <quintopia> how does it?
02:44:12 <ais523> it doesn't sacrifice them just to get a head start, though; it sacrifices them to give more space to build decoys
02:44:15 <quintopia> rule of12?
02:44:21 <ais523> yes, there's a rule of 12 in there
02:44:32 <ais523> although if it detects a short tape, it switches to omega_turtle
02:44:44 <ais523> so it's only sacrificing short tapes it can't detect, which is typically 3 or 4 lengths
02:45:07 <quintopia> what is omega turtle
02:45:08 <ais523> the rule of 12 is because if it hasn't lost already, the tape is probably quite long
02:45:15 <ais523> it's a turtle with a very large offset
02:45:53 <quintopia> i have a new program but it is almost certainly too long
02:46:53 <ais523> even if pastebinned?
02:47:03 <quintopia> i'd like to add something to bfj language to make complex strategies smaller and clearer
02:47:19 <quintopia> but it would probably obsoleteall currentstrategies
02:48:16 <myndzi> not if it doesn't change instruction size?
02:48:26 <myndzi> some kind of macro compiler could be useful
02:48:38 <myndzi> i'm not quite sure what kind of directives you would quantify these with though
02:48:45 <myndzi> but there are patterns so i'm sure it's possible
02:50:04 <david_werecat> Macros would be very useful.
02:50:44 <david_werecat> If the macros had submultipliers, it would be even better.
02:51:31 <elliott> david_werecat: problem is the macros have to be expanded server-side
02:51:36 <elliott> which doesn't work when you have very complex constructions
02:51:50 <elliott> the thing with the existing repetition facilities is that they can be interpreted efficiently, without expansion
02:51:58 <elliott> (egojoust expands them, which is why it's so slow)
02:52:09 <david_werecat> and memory consuming
02:54:52 * ais523 rages at sucralose_philip
02:54:57 <ais523> and the other programs based on it
02:55:29 <ais523> changing strategy after four decoys makes all my strategy detection kind-of useless
02:57:29 <david_werecat> Whoa, what's triplock3 doing that near to the bottom?
02:57:47 <ais523> david_werecat: triplock3 is a simplified but less accurate triplock2
02:57:52 <ais523> so it should be doing somewhat worse than triplock2
02:58:01 <ais523> also, everyone knows about triplocks nowadays
02:58:11 <ais523> although I don't think anyone else actually /uses/ them
02:58:41 <ais523> haha, I'd forgotten that waterfall3 actually /deleted its own decoys/ in order to stop sucralose_philip changing strategy :)
02:59:42 <david_werecat> That's an interesting way to beat it
03:00:06 <ais523> yep
03:00:13 <ais523> delete your decoys, change your flag, and it falls off the end :)
03:00:36 <david_werecat> How did that affect its performance against other programs though?
03:00:50 <ais523> not a lot, it only did it if it detected a turtle/philip
03:01:13 <ais523> waterfall3 is pretty much made of special cases
03:01:15 <myndzi> interesting, i just read the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3
03:01:16 <myndzi> ;)
03:01:30 <ais523> I don't /quite/ think it's the case that every program sent it down a different codepath
03:01:34 <ais523> but it must have been quite close ;)
03:01:50 <ais523> and then I only wrote a couple of lines about slowpoke
03:01:57 <ais523> because waterfall3 really is that much more complex than slowpoke is
03:02:15 <myndzi> funny that it took so long for the ideas wrt: timing detection to show profit
03:02:35 <myndzi> but nice to see :)
03:02:43 <myndzi> to be honest i never thought programs that complex would succeed
03:03:03 <myndzi> this game has stayed interesting longer than i figured on
03:03:04 <myndzi> :P
03:03:15 <myndzi> but it's way too annoying to actually participate in now haha
03:03:24 <ais523> I don't know, you still have programs on the hill
03:03:30 <ais523> you can just try some simple programs and see what sticks
03:03:31 <ion>
03:03:44 <ais523> !bfjoust the_first_program_ever [>[-]+]
03:03:44 <myndzi> yeah, but that's not as interesting ;)
03:03:45 <ion> “the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3” – URL, please. :-)
03:03:48 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_the_first_program_ever: 9.3
03:03:51 <myndzi> lol
03:03:58 <myndzi> it's on the wiyki
03:04:01 <myndzi> i closed the page
03:04:06 <ion> Ok, thanks
03:04:07 <ais523> ion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011 and scroll down a bit
03:04:17 <ion> Thankes.
03:04:18 <ais523> stop when you reach the wall of text
03:04:21 <myndzi> lmao.
03:04:29 <myndzi> on the topic of updating the language
03:04:37 <ais523> the first program ever doesn't do to well nowadays
03:04:39 <myndzi> there seems to be one thing that was enabled by the better interpreter
03:04:41 <ais523> *too
03:04:48 <myndzi> that is somewhat common
03:04:56 <myndzi> which is basically setting up nested loops to operate as conditionals
03:05:05 <myndzi> it's a waste of memory and they never get processed
03:05:07 <ais523> yes
03:05:09 <myndzi> they just get used as ifs
03:05:23 <myndzi> so i think it would be fair to add something like an if-not-zero
03:05:37 <myndzi> since theoretically you can accomplish the same by nesting a bunch of loops to ridiculous length
03:05:37 <myndzi> s
03:05:40 <ais523> in fact, I strongly considered an alternative BF Joust where doing that was banned in order to make defence more interesting
03:05:42 <myndzi> it would make programs simpler to read etc.
03:05:53 <elliott> I strongly oppose the idea of adding an if construct
03:06:04 <elliott> the underlying language is still pure BF in bf joust now and it should stay that way IMO
03:06:14 <myndzi> as i just pointed out
03:06:20 <myndzi> it's simply a convenience
03:06:25 <myndzi> much like the % and * loops
03:06:31 <myndzi> it doesn't alter the language any
03:06:38 <elliott> well, it's a lot heavier a layer than a simple repetition system
03:06:47 <myndzi> except to make possible "larger" programs
03:06:58 <myndzi> not really.. it basically IS a simple repetition system
03:07:03 <myndzi> "start a loop that i don't expect to end"
03:07:14 <ais523> well, "a ifnonzero(b) c" is a[bc]c but unfortunately, that doesn't abbreviate to anything, not even using %
03:07:16 <myndzi> "i am only gonna write the first character, you can just assume the last one is there"
03:07:38 <ais523> however, it's quite common for b never to return, in which case if and while are equivalent
03:07:55 <myndzi> i forgot about the failure case
03:07:56 <myndzi> lol
03:08:25 <myndzi> i dunno, it would be nice to make things more readable
03:08:50 <ais523> note that at least one program of mine, I was going to do that but it didn't fit into size limits, so I had to be more BFy
03:09:04 <ais523> also note: if you had arbitrary control structures, you'd never use the tape for computation ever
03:09:15 <ais523> (admittedly, generally you don't /anyway/, but waterfall3 does)
03:09:18 <myndzi> the size limits are merely practical, not theoretical ;p
03:09:37 <ais523> using the tape for computation is awkward because the opponent has a tendency of scribbling on it
03:09:43 <ais523> although you can safely do it /behind/ the opponent
03:10:26 <myndzi> what about this
03:10:30 <myndzi> i realize this is rather off the wall
03:10:36 <myndzi> 1) number lines
03:10:43 <myndzi> 2) provide a mechanism for "if not zero, goto"
03:10:46 <myndzi> 3) only goto forwards
03:11:14 <monqy> are we making a new game in the spirit of bfjoust
03:11:14 <monqy> ?
03:11:17 <myndzi> naw
03:11:26 <myndzi> i'm just talking about notation differences that might make it rather easier to read
03:11:35 <myndzi> the idea here is that things of the form
03:11:35 <itidus20> a joust with a new language
03:11:45 <itidus20> which has yet to become self aware
03:12:20 <myndzi> you know what i should just write explanations before i offer ideas
03:12:20 <myndzi> haha
03:12:40 <myndzi> [a][b][c] isn't what i was trying to address
03:12:49 <myndzi> but i guess actually
03:12:59 <myndzi> [a[b[c]]] can also be covered by that case
03:13:09 <myndzi> the need is for a time penalty of the appropriate amount of cycles
03:13:32 <myndzi> which i think is calculable
03:13:39 <myndzi> but i'm not sure this would really clean anything up much
03:13:39 <ais523> "time penalty" would be fatal to programming
03:13:45 <ais523> because it makes you vulnerable to triplocking
03:13:47 <myndzi> by 'time penalty' i mean ]]]]
03:13:55 <myndzi> doesn't get processed as if it was ]
03:14:23 <myndzi> but what am i even talking about, we don't indend to end/loop with this
03:14:29 <myndzi> i'm sick, i will just be quiet ;)
03:15:11 <itidus20> i have no relevance to bfjoust. but i can see that the nice thing about the bfjoust page on the esolang wiki is it's the sort of thing that could show up as a paperback at a flea market.
03:15:37 <elliott> what
03:16:38 <itidus20> its the sort of text someone could just pick up and read .. with an introductory chapter explaining what brainfuck is and what bfjoust is
03:16:45 <elliott> david_werecat: btw, you should link to a specific version of the file
03:16:48 <elliott> like the other links do
03:16:52 <elliott> on the strategies page
03:16:57 <elliott> in case it falls of the hill or gets changed
03:17:04 <elliott> (if it gets changed, then you can update the link when you update the description, ofc)
03:17:07 <elliott> *off
03:17:12 <myndzi> i regret fucking with slowrush
03:17:16 <myndzi> hehe
03:17:40 <myndzi> after wix stopped fucking with wiggle3
03:17:42 <david_werecat> elliott: The file link is to the most recent version, do you mean the animation version?
03:17:43 <myndzi> like a year later i was like
03:17:45 <myndzi> HA I GET THE LAST WORD
03:17:49 <myndzi> so i tweaked the constants
03:17:54 <elliott> david_werecat: not latest, that's the point
03:17:57 <myndzi> and it didn't really help so i put em back
03:17:59 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/80f20eeecd87/ais523_slowpoke.bfjoust
03:17:59 <elliott> vs.
03:18:00 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
03:18:06 <elliott> the latter breaks when it falls off the hill
03:18:08 <myndzi> but now it's not technically an uninterrupted run since... god i have no idea when
03:18:14 <elliott> the former doesn't (it points to a specific version and will never change)
03:18:35 <david_werecat> Oh, okay. I'll change that.
03:19:51 <david_werecat> BTW, I don't think dreadnought is going to be knocked off anytime soon.
03:20:06 <myndzi> it might well be changed though ;p
03:20:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>([(+)*24[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*23[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*22[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*21[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*20[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*19[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*18[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*17[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*16[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*15[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*14[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*13[-{[+++[+++]]}>]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256)*-1
03:20:20 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 15.8
03:20:29 <ais523> elliott: so there you go, the strategy which I believe beats all defence strategies
03:20:43 <elliott> it does not do very well
03:20:51 <myndzi> that's not really the point
03:20:54 <myndzi> hehe
03:21:04 <myndzi> it makes an interesting counterexample?
03:21:08 <ais523> it isn't tuned to beat attack strategies /at all/
03:21:14 <elliott> myndzi: well, it's meant to trivialise the game
03:21:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:21:26 <elliott> I suppose the problem is there's too many attack programs on the hill
03:21:28 <elliott> ais523: ah
03:21:33 <elliott> why not try it with one of your warriors?
03:21:40 <ais523> hmm, it loses to the waterfalls
03:21:43 * ais523 checks why
03:23:12 <ais523> oh, typo
03:23:47 <ais523> hmm, maybe not
03:26:17 <ais523> yes
03:26:23 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:26:26 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 13.9
03:26:33 <myndzi> lol
03:27:49 <ais523> beats anticipation, defend9.75, triplock2/3, waterfall2/3
03:27:54 <ais523> various other assorted programs too
03:28:11 <ais523> /doesn't/ beat vibration, because it needs a separate countervibrate and I didn't bother to add one, but doing that is simple enough
03:28:48 <ais523> (the base program for that is the standard (>)*8(>[-])*21, btw, it just has a much more complex clear loop)
03:29:07 <ais523> (which is a two-cycle offset clear, except against defence)
03:29:29 <ais523> and defence is detected via a 100% reliable mechanism
03:30:00 <ais523> (the opponent /must/ be changing their flag value during the clear in order for it to be detected)
03:30:19 <ais523> the different numbers on the offset clear are to beat anticipation
03:31:09 <myndzi> i don't know what anticipation does
03:31:19 <myndzi> i suppose it anticipates? ;p
03:31:33 <ais523> it sets its flag to nonzero the cycle /after/ the opponent zeroes it
03:31:38 <ais523> by measuring the opponent's timings
03:31:45 <myndzi> ha
03:31:52 <ais523> this puts it into its anti-vibration loop (because it would, wouldn't it?)
03:32:02 <ais523> then it uses a counter-anti-vibration lock
03:32:20 <myndzi> and then an anti-counter-vibrating-furry-leather-strapon lock-and-chain
03:32:32 <ais523> that sounds like what Gregor would come up with :)
03:33:45 <ais523> I was going to add this to skyscraper, but come to think of it, there's no real need
03:33:50 <ais523> skyscraper detects defence well enough as it is
03:34:44 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:34:47 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 21.0
03:34:51 <ais523> let's put some decoys in there, give it a chance
03:35:03 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*4(>-----)*4(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:35:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 23.5
03:36:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:36:15 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:36:18 <ais523> whoa
03:36:41 <ais523> #8, just below space_elevator
03:36:45 <david_werecat> That's looking impressive
03:37:28 <elliott> why 999 instead of -1, out of curiosity?
03:37:38 <ais523> elliott: it has to be a finite number higher than 256
03:37:49 <elliott> why finite?
03:37:53 <ais523> and I wanted to avoid multiples of 256 due to weird coincidences
03:37:59 <ais523> and that's the time at which it breaks out of the original clear loop
03:38:03 <ais523> and moves onto the counterdefend loop
03:38:12 <ais523> ([+++[+++]] in this example)
03:38:38 <elliott> fair enough
03:38:51 <elliott> isn't 999 a bit big, because of the cycle limi?
03:38:53 <elliott> *limit
03:39:08 <ais523> it won't get anywhere near the cycle limit, which is 10000
03:39:12 <ais523> well, maybe it will
03:39:16 <ais523> but I'm not seeing timeout draws
03:39:22 <ais523> oh, it's 100000, not 10000
03:39:24 <ais523> right, nowhere near
03:39:33 <elliott> OK
03:40:30 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:40:33 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:40:40 <ais523> thought that'd be equivalent, and it's shorter
03:42:23 <elliott> such an uncreative name :p
03:42:54 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/dcIN
03:42:58 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.7
03:43:01 <ais523> haha
03:43:02 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:43:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:43:12 <ais523> it drops /that far/ if I add a simple antishudder?
03:43:43 <ais523> nope
03:43:51 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:43:54 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.1
03:43:54 <ais523> typo, again
03:44:33 <ais523> I got that antishudder from waterfall3; it's a bit long, but it's tried and tested
03:45:07 <elliott> !bfjoust
03:45:08 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:45:15 <david_werecat> Hey, 2.7 points away from 5th place.
03:45:44 <elliott> I see it loses to counterpoke
03:46:01 <elliott> ais523: you should try using that as the clear loop in an existing good program or something
03:46:23 <ais523> I thought about it
03:46:35 <ais523> but none of my recent existing good programs would benefit from it
03:46:49 <elliott> pick someone else's!
03:46:51 <ais523> except perhaps counterpoke
03:47:00 <elliott> the game hasn't had enough modification and blending of other people's programs for ages
03:47:07 <ais523> but the amazing score here doesn't seem to be due to the clear loop
03:47:20 <elliott> well, you said it was a drop-in to another program
03:47:23 <elliott> which is why I suggested that
03:47:25 <ais523> it's just a simple fast rush program which doesn't have to worry about defence
03:48:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*19[-])*21
03:48:15 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 38.1
03:48:20 <ais523> see what I mean?
03:48:39 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop <
03:48:41 <elliott> fair enough
03:48:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 0.0
03:48:46 <elliott> you misinterpreted me though
03:48:52 <elliott> i did not mean s/dtd's clear loop/someone else's/
03:49:02 <elliott> i meant
03:49:19 <ais523> someone else's program =~ s/clear loop/dtd's clear loop/
03:49:20 <elliott> 04:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:49:25 <elliott> right
03:50:06 <ais523> oh, it's also important that the 999 is not even approximately divisible by 256
03:50:14 <ais523> or you can create a modified anticipation to beat it
03:50:34 <ais523> …999 is sort-of divisble by 256, isn't it
03:50:35 <myndzi> sounds like you just want something relatively prime with a large step
03:50:44 <myndzi> kinda like corewars bomb steps
03:51:07 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/UgLO
03:51:08 <elliott> ais523: pick the number least divisible by 256
03:51:10 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 32.6
03:51:16 <ais523> what did I do wrong there?
03:51:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:51:25 <elliott> hill effects
03:51:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 40.4
03:51:31 <elliott> nice
03:51:34 <ais523> not that large of hill effects
03:51:43 <ais523> that's the one that was scoring 41 earlier, hill effects have pushed it down to 40
03:52:25 <ais523> it seems to be winning just by out-decoying everyone else
03:53:00 <ais523> it is kind-of vulnerable to pokes, though
03:53:42 <ais523> oh well, that'll just mean more points for counterpoke :D
03:55:06 <myndzi> you're going for the triforce of bfjoust
03:55:18 <myndzi> it's like i'll form the head!
03:55:37 <elliott> quintopia: we need yr scoring system btw
03:55:54 <elliott> ais523: so does it really beat every defence strategy?
03:56:03 <ais523> yes
03:56:07 <ais523> that I know of, at least
03:56:10 <elliott> :(
03:56:11 <elliott> rip
03:56:21 <ais523> and anything that relies on locks that only work against one type of clear loop, it beats
03:57:12 <elliott> so how does it do it
03:58:25 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/XUOQ
03:58:28 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.4
03:58:32 <ais523> trying out something that skips zeros
03:58:33 <myndzi> oho
03:58:33 <ais523> oh wow
03:59:03 <ais523> anyway, it beats it by changing strategy after a clear has failed for too long
04:00:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:00:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:00:31 <ais523> tweaks for very long tapes
04:01:08 <myndzi> [..+++++------] is very distinctive looking :)
04:01:26 <myndzi> it's like LASERS PEW PEW
04:01:27 <ais523> myndzi: it's an anti-shudder
04:01:35 <david_werecat> Whoa, death_to_defense is looking very nice
04:01:38 <myndzi> i know.. i invented them! ;p
04:01:40 <elliott> 52.1? yow
04:01:44 <elliott> how did that happen
04:01:47 <ais523> it's not up into the 70s
04:01:54 <ais523> and it's basically a good old-fashioned slow rush program
04:02:07 <ais523> using a 2pass decoy setup (the first 2/3 of 3pass)
04:02:18 <elliott> ais523: less than .5 before you're at #4
04:02:21 <elliott> score, I mean
04:02:39 <elliott> (though be careful of over-fitting...)
04:02:55 <david_werecat> When did Gregor take back 3rd place...?
04:03:18 <myndzi> probably shifting scores?
04:03:23 <elliott> david_werecat: probably as a result of hill effects caused by new programs
04:03:33 <ais523> all the good poke programs beat death_to_defence
04:03:42 <ais523> I need to put some sort of antipoking in, I guess
04:07:33 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/AdUJ
04:07:37 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 51.0
04:07:37 <ais523> this'll probably drop the score
04:07:43 <ais523> but not by much, it seems
04:08:01 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:08:04 <ais523> didn't give it any new wins, anyway
04:08:04 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:08:07 <ais523> so it's not really worth doing
04:09:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/cMiQ
04:09:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 45.8
04:09:24 <ais523> hmm
04:09:26 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:09:28 <ais523> was worth a try
04:09:29 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:10:30 <ais523> dtd and counterpoke have most (all?) of the programs covered between them
04:12:50 <david_werecat> Not quite, Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys, ais523_undermine, atehwa_test_blah and david_werecat_juggernaut beat both of them
04:12:58 <ais523> ah, OK
04:13:17 <ais523> …how does undermine beat death_to_defence? I'll have to check
04:13:54 <ais523> ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is surprisingly hard to beat with a good program, you need at least four decoys to be competitive nowadays :)
04:14:48 <ais523> seems undermine simply does it with tripwire avoidance
04:16:41 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/gZUM
04:16:42 <myndzi> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.8
04:16:44 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.8
04:16:53 <myndzi> :P
04:17:03 <myndzi> 'wat?!'
04:17:06 <elliott> seems like it got worse
04:17:32 <ais523> trying something experimental
04:17:48 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NiFH
04:17:51 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 47.8
04:18:42 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/WSZF
04:18:45 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.2
04:19:02 <ais523> OK, I'll stop that
04:19:08 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:19:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:19:31 <ais523> (I was adding in some tripwire avoidance, but it didn't help against enough and hurt against lots more)
04:20:20 <ais523> !bfjoust defend7 http://sprunge.us/BTjd
04:20:23 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_defend7: 11.8
04:20:27 <ais523> let's see how it works nowadays
04:20:29 <ais523> answer: not very well
04:21:04 <ais523> !bfjoust defend5 http://sprunge.us/DVdY
04:21:07 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_defend5: 10.5
04:21:15 <elliott> remember when your name wasn't autoprefixed
04:21:33 <ais523> it's a bad day to be a defence program
04:21:35 <ais523> and no
04:22:16 <ais523> !bfjoust tripstridewire (>)*9[(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*7[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*5[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*3[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*1[[+]]]>[[+]]>[[+]]
04:22:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_tripstridewire: 20.4
04:22:19 <ais523> trying some old programs again
04:22:23 <ais523> to see if they even touch the hill
04:22:25 <ais523> that one did
04:23:15 <elliott> ais523: you don't remember
04:23:15 <elliott> ?
04:23:20 <ais523> no
04:23:21 <elliott> people just added programs without any name prefix
04:23:25 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
04:23:27 <elliott> then we started prefixing our names manually
04:23:28 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_speedy1: 20.1
04:23:28 <elliott> to avoid conflicts
04:23:29 <elliott> it was great
04:23:30 <ais523> was that before or after the hill was upside-down?
04:23:38 <elliott> much before
04:23:41 <elliott> first few days or week or so
04:24:00 <ais523> so it seems we're not facing hill effects really; the programs have just got /that/ much better
04:26:53 <david_werecat> I guess it would be possible to get an archive of all the old programs from the repository?
04:28:51 <elliott> the hill is kept in hg
04:28:55 <elliott> !bfjoust
04:28:56 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
04:29:01 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/
04:29:26 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/shortlog/9a683e7e8d50 the beginning
04:29:54 <elliott> ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/rev/45eec5187d79 people named them like this
04:30:05 <david_werecat> elliott: thanks for the link
04:30:09 <elliott> looks like you might have started the "nick_program" thing
04:30:15 <elliott> david_werecat: np
04:30:49 <elliott> !bfjoust ais523_vff_experimental >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(--++)*2500[[[>[---]+]+]+]
04:30:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for elliott_ais523_vff_experimental: 21.1
04:30:55 <elliott> not bad
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust
04:33:11 <elliott> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -42
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust wins.
04:33:12 <elliott> ais523: no fair
04:33:45 <ais523> vibration_fool_fast :)
04:34:00 <ais523> and yes, that's a defence program, what did you /expect/ to happen?
04:34:20 * ais523 adds flexible timer clear to the wiki
04:35:12 <ais523> I think in future, the main use of defensive elements will be for things like skyscraper
04:35:28 <ais523> which feel like a defence program, but doesn't use any sort of lock (although it /does/ use a tripwire)
04:38:24 <elliott> so, BF Joust lives another day?
04:38:36 <ais523> elliott: david_werecat_juggernaut.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjous t<><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><>< 2elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust wins.
04:38:42 <ais523> it's not hopelessly broken, just shallower than I'd like
04:38:45 <elliott> ais523: IMO, death_to_defence is probably notable enough for a description even if it hasn't gotten to #1
04:38:58 <ais523> I put its main strategy on the wiki in the strategies section
04:39:04 <elliott> someone should tell G. that BF Joust is still being innovated on today :)
04:39:09 <ais523> well, the one that doesn't really matter
04:39:12 <ais523> elliott: you can if you like
04:39:17 <elliott> btw, your code block is broken
04:39:38 <ais523> that's intentional, if you mean the line of non-codeblock in it
04:39:49 <ais523> because it isn't code
04:40:06 <elliott> it's ugly
04:43:12 <ais523> well, it's a wiki, if there's a formatting you'd prefer that isn't misleading you can fix it
04:43:51 <elliott> im laze
04:45:40 <elliott> "Note that no defense programs are simple (the very nature of a defensive strategy makes this so)"
04:45:41 <elliott> who wrote this
04:45:43 <elliott> it's kind of stupid
04:46:01 <myndzi> not really
04:46:08 <myndzi> he doesn't mean the strategy is simple
04:46:08 <elliott> yes really
04:46:11 <myndzi> but the implementation
04:46:15 <myndzi> which is certainly true
04:46:17 <elliott> well all the defence concepts are as simple as attack concepts
04:46:28 <elliott> it's just that you need complex implementations to be effective in practice -- but the same applies to attack too
04:46:28 <myndzi> but he didn't say the strategy is simple
04:46:31 <myndzi> he said the *programs* are
04:46:38 <elliott> ok, it's the parenthical that's wrong then
04:46:42 <myndzi> no
04:46:48 <elliott> (but plenty of defence programs are simple, they're just bad too; same as attack)
04:46:56 <myndzi> the nature of a defensive *strategy* makes defense *programs* complex
04:47:02 <elliott> why
04:47:22 <myndzi> i don't think anyone would count shudder-class programs as "defensive" even though that's technically true
04:47:33 <elliott> I would
04:47:35 <myndzi> but it's possible to write effective attack programs much more simply than equally effective defense programs
04:47:37 <elliott> in fact, so does the article
04:47:42 <elliott> so
04:47:44 * myndzi shrugs
04:47:54 <myndzi> just saying, i took the meaning of the sentence and it makes sense to me :)
04:48:14 <elliott> i still disagree :P
04:48:23 <myndzi> you're welcome to!
04:51:01 <ais523> elliott: leave vff_experimental on the leaderboard, btw
04:51:11 <elliott> i was going to
04:51:19 <ais523> it beating dreadnought is just too hilarious
04:52:33 <ais523> if only by the smallest of margins that doesn't involve a draw
04:55:35 <david_werecat> So that anti-triplock is still causing suicides off the tape...
04:58:59 <ais523> working around triplocks can be awkward if you haven't had practice
05:00:36 <david_werecat> Yes, especially since I have 13 brackets in a row
05:01:12 <david_werecat> I've tried double bracketing the main clear loop, but it hurts the score.
05:01:44 <ais523> there's a lazy way, which is just to, just after the place in your code where a cell is cleared, put a > then copy your entire attack loop there
05:03:36 <david_werecat> That's what I tried. I'm still working out a better way to do that.
05:05:32 <monqy> @ping
05:05:32 <lambdabot> pong
05:05:59 <shachaf> @sing
05:05:59 <lambdabot> pong
05:06:03 <shachaf> :-(
05:06:29 <ion> @ding
05:06:29 <lambdabot> pong
05:06:39 <shachaf> @ring
05:06:39 <lambdabot> pong
05:06:41 <shachaf> WRONG
05:06:44 <ion> @pong
05:06:44 <lambdabot> pong
05:06:51 <shachaf> @hang
05:06:52 <lambdabot> pong
05:06:56 -!- elliott has left.
05:07:04 <ion> @elng
05:07:04 <lambdabot> pong
05:07:05 <david_werecat> @null
05:07:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell url
05:07:07 <ion> @ellg
05:07:07 <shachaf> @iong
05:07:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
05:07:07 <lambdabot> pong
05:07:11 <myndzi> @lolg
05:07:12 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:07:12 <myndzi> :P
05:07:22 <shachaf> @pynge
05:07:22 <lambdabot> pong
05:07:58 <ion> @bling
05:07:58 <lambdabot> pong
05:08:11 <ion> @strin
05:08:11 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:08:12 <ion> @string
05:08:12 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:08:22 <shachaf> @boing
05:08:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: join ping
05:08:48 <ais523> @list
05:08:48 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:08:50 <ion> > join ping
05:08:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `ping'
05:08:54 <ais523> hmph
05:09:06 <shachaf> @list-all
05:09:06 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
05:09:07 <ion> @fliszt
05:09:07 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:21 <ion> @f.liszt
05:09:22 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:23 <shachaf> @telemarketer
05:09:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:23 <ais523> @li‌st
05:09:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:25 <shachaf> @papaya
05:09:25 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:27 <shachaf> @cadmium
05:09:27 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:27 <ais523> yay, got it
05:09:31 <ais523> @li‌st
05:09:31 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:09:39 <shachaf> > "@li‌st"
05:09:40 <lambdabot> <no location info>:
05:09:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
05:09:47 <ion> @list
05:09:47 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:57 <ais523> it seems lambdabot ignores stray BOMs, but not stray zwnjs
05:09:59 <ion> @list
05:09:59 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:10:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/af8efaef/save.php?hash=56c3bf21ce6661a6bc28e93a41a73e7c
05:10:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.1
05:10:29 <shachaf> !bfjoust ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:29 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:10:36 <shachaf> !bfjoust HI ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:36 <david_werecat> Nice, better anti-triplock for +3
05:10:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for shachaf_HI: 10.7
05:11:31 <ais523> david_werecat: draw with skyscraper?
05:11:32 <myndzi> !bfjoust lol (-)*127
05:11:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for myndzi_lol: 11.0
05:11:53 <shachaf> !bfjoust myndzi
05:11:54 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:12:00 <shachaf> !bfjoust myndzi myndzi
05:12:02 <EgoBot> ​Score for shachaf_myndzi: 7.9
05:12:10 <david_werecat> ais523: Seems that way
05:12:29 <ais523> and the losses are counterpoke, omega_turtle, and waterfall3
05:12:46 <ais523> insidious wasn't likely to stay beating it for long
05:13:32 <ais523> myndzi: lol presumably works better than a nop only against turtles?
05:13:45 <david_werecat> I might update juggernaut with this code too...
05:13:51 <myndzi> i dunno :)
05:14:15 <ais523> there has to be some reason why flag at 1 beats flag at 128
05:14:25 <myndzi> oh sure
05:14:36 <myndzi> stuff that ignores or decoys the first nonzero
05:14:43 <myndzi> or just overwrites it without noticing maybe
05:14:52 <myndzi> or isn't specifically designed to attack 128
05:14:59 <myndzi> or just a little luck ;)
05:15:31 <ais523> it'd have to be zeroing the cell in order to distinguish 1 from 128
05:15:51 <ais523> in order to avoid winning at that point, it'd have to unzero it again the next cycle
05:16:21 <myndzi> well, yes
05:16:28 <myndzi> there's plenty of-- around
05:16:29 <myndzi> :P
05:16:35 <myndzi> i was just curious what would happen
05:16:55 <ais523> !bfjoust stupid_vibration >(+-)*-1
05:17:00 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_stupid_vibration: 6.5
05:17:08 <ais523> worse than a NOP :)
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05:18:03 <ais523> hmm, challenge: write a program that beats exactly one other program on exactly one length and polarity (and loses to every other program on every length/polarity)
05:18:45 <myndzi> lol, how about
05:19:03 <myndzi> eh, well nah
05:19:08 <myndzi> i was gonna make two programs ;)
05:19:12 <myndzi> but even then it's kinda hard
05:19:16 <myndzi> .< vs < lol
05:19:38 <ais523> exactly one length is easy, but with polarity, not so easy
05:20:08 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:09 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:20:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:17 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:20:48 <ais523> wtf, it's actually /beating/ some programs
05:20:54 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](<)*1000
05:20:57 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:21:05 <ais523> oh, I see
05:21:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:17 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:21:49 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>--[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:22:06 <elliott> good score
05:22:12 <ais523> there we go
05:22:19 <ais523> beats counterpoke on length 12 kettle
05:22:29 <ais523> and no other single-case wins anywhere
05:22:42 <myndzi> nice :P
05:22:45 <ais523> that wasn't too hard to construct…
05:22:55 <myndzi> 'kettle'?
05:22:59 <ais523> (pretty interesting given that it can't even flag-clear on length 12 kettle
05:23:02 <ais523> myndzi: non-reversed polarity
05:23:05 <ais523> reversed is sieve
05:23:08 <ais523> elliott's names
05:23:10 <myndzi> lol ok
05:23:27 <elliott> it's not really reversed!
05:23:33 <elliott> they're both as normal as each other
05:23:43 <myndzi> one is the opposite of what you wrote though
05:23:44 <elliott> that's why you need neutral names, like sieve, and kettle
05:23:48 <elliott> ais523: actually, kettle is reversed, I think
05:23:57 <elliott> pretty sure it's "sieve and kettle", "normal and reversed"
05:24:02 <myndzi> i'd totally just call em positive and negative
05:24:02 <myndzi> :P
05:24:08 <myndzi> negative = opposite of
05:24:11 <elliott> myndzi: that's really confusing
05:24:14 <elliott> because it works both ways round
05:24:19 <myndzi> only if you never took grade 1 math
05:24:31 <myndzi> oh wait
05:24:34 <myndzi> you mean *combinations*?
05:24:38 <elliott> what
05:24:42 <elliott> ps re math
05:24:45 <myndzi> + v +, - v +
05:24:46 <myndzi> etc.
05:24:48 <elliott> `quote hours.*subtract
05:24:51 <HackEgo> 698) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
05:24:59 <myndzi> i don't remember what grade they taught the negative sign in
05:25:06 <myndzi> but it was early
05:25:06 <myndzi> :P
05:25:10 <ais523> beautiful: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=2f375a1d0bc6000e54ea3e14763f90dd87b5888c&r=ee72388f6d3cd927ddb7762853c3b4275c920ec1&t=12
05:25:15 <ais523> the (-)*128 is completely irrelevant
05:25:26 <ais523> unless it affects the behaviour of some program, which is unlikely
05:25:42 <elliott> nice fleeing
06:08:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:19:43 <zzo38> Which calendar and year numbering do you like? * BC/AD * BCE/CE * Discordian * Stardate * Holocene * Tropical year * UNIX * Pax * International Fixed * Astronomical year numbering * Mayan long count * Chinese * ISO week date *
06:19:54 <Sgeo> Unununium
06:22:45 <elliott> hi
06:25:49 <myndzi> http://xkcd.com/1061/
06:25:52 <myndzi> i'd do it.
06:26:49 <Sgeo> elliott, no way you don't know what I
06:26:52 <Sgeo> I'm talking about
06:26:55 <elliott> hi
06:27:32 <Sgeo> I once promised that I'd modify an open-source script that was competing with my product, I never got around to it
06:27:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should do that soon
06:27:48 <Sgeo> Person thought that I was reselling the open-source script, but I wasn't
06:28:56 <Sgeo> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=discussions&ItemID=374979 click cancel
06:34:03 <elliott> hi
06:37:35 <Sgeo> hi
07:02:54 <zzo38> That kind of Earth Standard Time is too strange
07:05:23 <zzo38> It is funny
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07:10:53 <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform?
07:10:56 <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term>
07:11:39 <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:12:54 <itidus20> i guess nintendo games are more on my level than esolangs.. but i am studying how it actually works..
07:14:20 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:14:28 <HackEgo> 843) <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
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08:19:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:19:51 <Taneb> Hello!
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08:26:09 <UN_MANITAS_MADRI> #madrid
08:26:31 <Taneb> `welcome UN_MANITAS_MADRI
08:26:32 <elliott> hi
08:26:34 <HackEgo> UN_MANITAS_MADRI: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:23:43 <itidus20> "Looked for a secret base in a dream" http://oi46.tinypic.com/16leoo3.jpg
09:26:06 <olsner> "Home of boiled cat"
09:27:49 <itidus20> beat that, fungot
09:27:49 <fungot> itidus20: i thought nne? fnord?) altitude info and whatnot... i gave up
09:28:04 <itidus20> you win, fungot
09:28:05 <fungot> itidus20: i also seem to forget it. the reason member confused me is that i need
09:29:52 <itidus20> /clear
09:31:28 <itidus20> olsner: yeah.. i like that
09:31:35 <itidus20> it's almost like advertising a restaurant
09:31:55 <itidus20> welcome to the home of fried chicken
09:32:23 <olsner> the main branch of a big chain of boiled cat restaurants
09:33:07 <itidus20> nightmare fuel
09:34:45 <elliott> hi
09:34:59 <itidus20> whoa...
09:35:53 -!- qfr has left.
09:36:12 <itidus20> Language C/C++ Perl PHP Java/-Script brainfuck Engrish
09:36:32 <nortti> ?
09:37:06 <itidus20> its from the same website as the link to the home of the boiled cat
09:37:18 <itidus20> i am surprised to see brainfuck on the list though
09:40:46 <itidus20> sorry.. i'm in nonsense mode
09:42:00 -!- Taneb has joined.
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09:43:44 <Taneb> Hello
09:45:09 <elliott> /\'
09:45:22 <itidus20> hi elliott
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09:49:05 <itidus20> theres no way these translations are remotely accurate
09:49:12 <itidus20> unless this guy is insane
09:51:32 <elliott> /\'
09:51:47 <Taneb> \o/
09:52:53 <itidus20> "I had come out a rainbow on my way home last Friday. I say it's large enough for the first time may not fit on the camera can see the both ends are rare."
09:54:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:55:14 <itidus20> and... i'll try to wrap it up with "Yesterday was the end of student drinking in pairs. Grilled chicken pieces and a thorn bird of fear. Students are high 6,500 yen."
10:01:07 <itidus20> "Made to seek good and quiet. It is the only resonance in trouble. What a little anxious Woonsocket"
10:01:55 <olsner> enjoy your matrix of woonsocketry
10:02:26 <itidus20> this is not good for my thinking
10:02:48 <itidus20> but it's incredibly fun for my imagination
10:03:02 <itidus20> almost like drugs might be
10:04:13 <itidus20> oh. this diary entry is titled "Idol collage which is made ​​by superimposing the photo of a celebrity's face on a pornographic image by using a computer [2008/11/01 00:44:00]"
10:05:20 -!- ais523 has set topic: warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:05:28 <olsner> ais523: hi
10:05:34 <ais523> aargh
10:06:37 <olsner> `quote hi
10:06:39 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 13) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his
10:07:03 <olsner> hmm, that was not entirely successful
10:07:10 <Taneb> `quote cereal
10:07:13 <HackEgo> 460) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
10:12:18 <olsner> nice usability failure, they have a contact lens working as a camera and screen, and when it recognizes the face of an assassin he gets a message
10:12:20 <olsner> ... on his cell phone
10:13:37 <olsner> hmm, "usability"? not sure, but fail anyway
10:13:45 <olsner> misfeature perhaps
10:19:25 <olsner> nice that they included simon pegg for comic relief though
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10:32:43 <rszeno> hi
10:36:16 <ais523> rszeno: ouch
10:36:50 <rszeno> ais523, ouch?
10:36:57 <ais523> see topic
10:37:27 <rszeno> oops, sorry
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10:38:33 <rszeno> i usualy read logs before i join the channel, but not today
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10:42:23 <ais523> we've been advancing the state of BF Joust
10:42:40 <ais523> david_werecat has been making programs that beat almost everything, I've been coming up with creative ways not to lose to them
10:50:35 -!- olsner has joined.
10:54:00 <rszeno> is a zero sum game, Nash equilibrium?
10:54:56 <rszeno> i have no idea how to define the problem to be solved
10:55:23 <Taneb> I don't think it's a Nash equilibrium
10:57:00 <Taneb> But I'm far from an expert at Game Theory
10:57:27 <ais523> rszeno: a nash equilibrium is a set of strategies a game, where no single player can get better off by changing their strategy
10:57:32 <ais523> *strategies for a game
10:57:33 <rszeno> i don't know too
10:57:56 <ais523> as in, given that all the other players follow their plan, you should follow yours too
10:58:57 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:59:02 <rszeno> yes but sometime is possible to exists a strategy to win all times, in same cases
11:01:30 <rszeno> i don't remember the name of the game, something with 0 and 1, three in a line or more. I remember the one who start first and follow a 'plan' always win
11:02:59 <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
11:03:12 <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
11:03:20 <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
11:13:22 <rszeno> maybe i'm wrong but some constraint imposed by bf joust rules like number of cycles 100000, set of input chars, and aditional the lenght of the program could make possible to generate, brute force, a huge number of possible programs( strategies in our case) and select or at least analize them
11:14:47 <rszeno> will too many combination?
11:15:38 <rszeno> i speculate in fact
11:16:20 <rszeno> when i see a interesting 'problem' i always look for a possible solution
11:35:27 <Taneb> The first bit of my computer arrived today
11:43:17 <Gregor> There is no feeling worse than needing to buy something, but being awake before the store is open.
11:47:13 <olsner> how about waking up after it closes?
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11:49:36 <ssue> hello world!
11:49:48 <Taneb> `welcome ssue
11:49:51 <HackEgo> ssue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:50:21 <Taneb> Hello
11:50:27 <ssue> hello
11:50:33 <Taneb> You new?
11:50:38 <ssue> yes
11:50:45 <Taneb> Two questions:
11:50:49 <Taneb> Do you live in Hexham?
11:50:56 <ssue> no
11:51:03 <Taneb> Do you live in Finland?
11:51:07 <ssue> no
11:51:10 <Taneb> Okay
11:51:31 <Taneb> How did you get into esolangs?
11:52:02 <ssue> by someone's introduction
11:52:09 <ssue> actually... in here
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11:58:52 <ais523> welcome, anyway
12:00:46 <ssue> thank u
12:01:50 <Taneb> What's your favourite esoang?
12:02:24 <ssue> well...
12:03:07 <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
12:03:41 <ssue> it's made of "Hangul" characters
12:03:47 <Taneb> Hmm
12:03:54 <ssue> but not in Korean language, actually
12:03:55 <Taneb> I've never used that one
12:04:37 <Taneb> I like Piet
12:04:40 <ssue> http://puzzlet.org/personal/wiki.php/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification here you can find more details
12:04:46 <ssue> hmm...
12:04:57 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
12:07:04 <ssue> looks interesting
12:07:42 <ssue> colours are the source code?
12:08:08 <ais523> source code's in image form, indeed
12:08:14 <ais523> so it makes sense to lex it as colours
12:08:24 <ais523> (although it's ceased to be color-related by the time it's parsed)
12:08:55 <ssue> oh
12:15:46 <quintopia> @tell elliott shaddup
12:15:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:21:23 <Taneb> Hello
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13:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so the HIB Psychonauts binary is crashing with a floating point error and I can find no documentation of this anywhere else on the internet.
13:48:10 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:32:25 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: probably it's dividing by zero
14:34:03 <olsner> try using a number that is not zero
14:34:52 <ion> Indeed
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14:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, so overwite the binary with 0xFF?
14:47:22 <olsner> if that's what you want, sure
14:47:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to download that but it's 4G
14:47:38 <ais523> I'll wait until later, I think
14:47:49 <ais523> when I can better figure out space management and have a more reliable connection
14:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so liberating to have a hard drive that I'm basically never going to have to grub for space on.
14:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember when I was stuck on the family laptop and there was like 2G of free space.
14:51:02 <fizzie> There are too many games in the Bundle. I did a bit of LIMBO yesterday, and the intro of Bastion today, but haven't gotten to Psychonauts at all.
14:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> That floating-point bug happens like right at the start of actual gameplay.
14:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Bastion was good, if short.
14:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The shortness may come from my superfluous free time, though.
14:52:53 <fizzie> Based on the intro bit, I kinda-sorta suck at it, but that's what I do when it comes to anything at all actiony.
14:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I spent most of it alternating between mashing space and the mouse buttons with the machete and musket and running away and sniping with the machete's alt-fire thing.
14:58:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure what space does, I've been playing it with a pad.
15:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Evade.
15:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It does that dodge thing which results in some good old Zelda-style "roll across the map" action.
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15:07:00 <fizzie> Oh, of course.
15:08:15 <fizzie> They're A, B and X, respectively. Well, cross, circle and square physically, but it says "gamepad not detected" unless I enable the X360 controller fakery mode.
15:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Does the Limbo port work well?
15:20:35 <fizzie> I've just used the Steam versions.
15:27:01 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/caab8d2c/save.php?hash=da1da4f0baff73448dd35a69484e9670
15:27:04 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.4
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15:39:49 <Taneb> Hello
15:40:02 * Taneb reached Axe Proficiency level 1!
15:49:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:52:55 <olsner> ... looks like Taneb exercised his Axe Proficiency on his internet connection
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16:06:44 <fizzie> david_werecat: Did you just win?
16:07:13 <david_werecat> I've been in first place for around 2 days now.
16:07:38 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I tend not to check.
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17:30:26 <Taneb> Hello
17:33:31 <Taneb> zzo38, some of these functions in Prelude.Generalize are too general to describe easily with my limited describing ability
17:38:40 <zzo38> Taneb: O, well, it could be described as a generalize version of something else, giving some examples of the generalizations
17:38:56 <Taneb> choice and count right now
17:41:22 <zzo38> Both of those names are based on Parsec but for any Alternative
17:41:48 <Taneb> This is the downside of never having used Parsec, heh
17:42:28 <zzo38> The type is too restrictive f should be Applicative rather than Alternative; I will fix that in next version.
17:42:34 <Taneb> There are a couple of very small changes I'd make, mostly using liftM instead of fmap in a couple of places to make the thingy smaller
17:42:44 <Taneb> Type restriction?
17:42:57 <zzo38> I mean the constraint
17:43:08 <Taneb> That's what I was talking about too
17:43:50 <Taneb> So, (<>>=) and (>>==) don't have the Functor requirement
17:44:25 <Taneb> Also, please put null next to unnull in the export list?
17:44:30 <zzo38> I just dislike that Functor is not a superclass of Monad
17:44:35 <zzo38> Taneb: OK, I will move that too
17:45:17 <Taneb> The Functor/Monad problem is a problem, but it's a problem
17:45:24 <Taneb> That made a lot more sense in my head
17:45:48 <Taneb> It's a problem that exists, and the problem being fixed won't break anything
17:46:09 <zzo38> I moved unnull/null in the export list and changed the constraint of count
17:48:21 <zzo38> I will upload the changes later today
17:51:33 <zzo38> But show me what you have so far?
17:53:01 <Taneb> I've just begun changing my style, because I'm indecisive and excessively terse
17:54:59 <Taneb> So hang on?
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17:56:35 <quintopia> david_werecat: what did you change with that last sub?
17:56:51 <david_werecat> Of dreadnought?
17:57:18 <david_werecat> I improved the anti-triplock code, which also made it much faster.
17:57:45 <quintopia> what is the anti triplock code?
17:57:49 <quintopia> timer clear?
17:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey david_werecat fix psychonauts for me
17:58:24 <quintopia> i coldnt download it Phantom_Hoover
17:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you use the torrent.
17:58:39 <quintopia> but i dont have enough ram to run it anyway
17:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> You're meant to use the torrent.
17:58:56 <quintopia> the torrnent kept sayingpermissin denied from thewebseed
17:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It even tells you when you click the direct download link, use the torrent.
17:58:58 <david_werecat> The anti-triplock is a dual nested loop that leads into a copy of the clear routine.
17:59:08 <Taneb> zzo38, why is option called option, rather than, eg., snocA?
17:59:25 <quintopia> so yeah
17:59:35 <quintopia> couldnt download it by either method
17:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also how do you not have the ram to run a 7-year-old games.
17:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> *game
17:59:48 <quintopia> netbook
17:59:54 <quintopia> only got 1gig
18:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ...did computers normally have more ram than that in 2005?
18:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I honestly don't remember
18:00:49 <quintopia> the windows version onlyreqires 512mb
18:00:56 <quintopia> which is all that wasavailable then
18:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I see your netbook also has a very unreliable spacebar.
18:01:21 <quintopia> mac and linux require 2gig
18:01:31 <quintopia> yeah my phonne space bar is teh suck
18:01:36 <quintopia> it got wet
18:01:51 <quintopia> the keys near itdouble tap or dont tap sometimes too
18:04:32 <zzo38> Taneb: It is called option simply because that is its name in Parsec.
18:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Giant_sperm_whale
18:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god I need to capture one of these.
18:18:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't care how, I am going to do this. At some point. Maybe.
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18:35:23 <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
18:36:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:41:58 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I would find it extremely helpful.
18:42:13 <zzo38> OK
18:44:43 <zzo38> OK, I have done that.
18:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Can I have a link to the source?
18:47:07 <david_werecat> [14:35:18] <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
18:47:09 <david_werecat> [14:36:19] Taneb [~Taneb@host-84-13-68-182.opaltelecom.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
18:47:11 <david_werecat> [14:41:53] <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I would find it extremely helpful.
18:47:13 <david_werecat> [14:42:08] <zzo38> OK
18:47:15 <david_werecat> oh crap
18:47:15 <david_werecat> [14:44:38] <zzo38> OK, I have done that.
18:47:26 <david_werecat> Stupid KVIrc
18:47:43 <david_werecat> Sorry
18:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Dude the lines are right above, did you have to paste oh all right.
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19:02:13 <Taneb> HEllo
19:05:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I have added snocA, it is the same as option.
19:05:51 <Taneb> :)
19:12:22 <Taneb> CSI:
19:12:33 <Taneb> "My god, there are bits in this image! Maybe it's a code?"
19:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so DF now has giant sperm whales.
19:13:08 <Taneb> As opposed to regular sperm whales?
19:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> They're eight times the size of a fully-grown dragon.
19:13:19 <Taneb> SO MUCH AMBERGRIS
19:23:23 <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
19:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you know that there are, like, websites for that?
19:24:04 <quintopia> yep
19:24:10 <quintopia> i tried
19:24:13 <quintopia> its too hard
19:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Whilst conducting a financial transaction with a random stranger over IRC is easy.
19:25:02 <quintopia> you're a stranger
19:25:10 <quintopia> several people in here are cool
19:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am genuinely curious whom you would trust to actually pay significant amounts of money.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Bitcoins, I heard they're only used by criminals for illegal things.
19:29:13 <fizzie> Like for buying drugs and I think assassinations?
19:29:35 <quintopia> exactly fizzie
19:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, don't forget pretentious programmers!
19:29:57 <quintopia> i want to buy an assassin
19:30:11 <fizzie> A pretentious programmer assassin.
19:30:24 <quintopia> who will sell me BTC for an assassin
19:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Who can I assassinate?
19:30:45 <quintopia> if the transaction does not go through, i send the assassin after you
19:30:55 <fizzie> Buttbuttinate.
19:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're going to send an assassin after everyone?
19:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> This is just like that one Neil Gaiman short story!
19:32:26 <quintopia> i would trust ais to complete the transaction
19:32:30 <quintopia> and gregor
19:32:46 <quintopia> people who are easily stalked by my assassin
19:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, OK I'm going to try a DF worldgen the same as previously except this time I will set the megabeast count to $ridiculous.
19:33:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Or perhaps even to BTCridiculous?
19:34:16 <monqy> the most ridiculous
19:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> ridiculous.
19:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (Pronounced lridiculous.)
19:38:44 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, see how many cities get covered in ambergris
19:41:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, oh, fun fact: children born to members of hostile civs in your fort have a 50/50 chance of being on your side from some reason.
19:41:10 <Taneb> Heh
19:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think this might be exploitable to use elf children as cannon fodder.
19:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They'll even fight with their parents and siblings.
19:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I only found this out because I was playing Fortress Defence and some of the added civs breed like crazy.
19:42:39 <Taneb> with meaning agaist here, I presume?
19:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:43:09 <Taneb> As opposed to alongside
19:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I used prisoners for target practice they actually did pretty well when given fire support.
19:43:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, challenge: make a fortress populated entirely by elves
19:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> They could clear out the jail given time.
19:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you can't give them orders or anything and ISTR that they don't play nicely with dorfs.
19:44:13 <Taneb> Aww
19:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't engineer a Cacame, which is a bit sad.
19:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hmm, these days non-dorf migrants are possible, since they don't all grow from spores right outside the boundaries of your embark zone,.
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19:56:24 <elliott> 11:02:59: <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:12: <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:20: <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
19:56:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:56:31 <elliott> seems trivial it's not, then
19:56:41 <elliott> @tell quintopia no
19:56:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:57:08 <elliott> 12:03:07: <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
19:57:11 <elliott> hehe, isn't that lifthrasiir?
19:59:50 <elliott> 19:23:23: <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
19:59:59 <elliott> :D
20:02:27 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:02:30 <kmc> -ouch-
20:03:25 <Taneb> Could be worse
20:04:18 <Taneb> It could be the Microsoft Windows 8 team, writing in Visual J#
20:12:41 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:12:44 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/u8fe6/response_to_conduit_bugs/
20:14:10 <elliott> 21:02 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:14:13 <elliott> kmc: that guy is a troll
20:14:58 <elliott> he's shitting over that entire thread (ok, the thread is mostly shit to start with) with anti-yesod nonsense to the point that even the writer of the conduit bugs post says he's misinterpreting him
20:15:39 <elliott> I think he might have been the person who made that big stink about Yesod on Hacker News a while ago, too (it annoys me that I know this solely because it got on /r/haskell for some godforsaken reason)
20:17:02 <elliott> 21:12 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:17:07 <elliott> kmc: this is kind of unfair
20:17:20 <elliott> it's easy to do that, just use regular, strict handle IO, the same as you would in any other language
20:17:38 <elliott> (and anyway when you're dealing with something like a socket "loading it all into memory" isn't an option, because it's streaming, so that's not really the problem being solved)
20:18:07 <kmc> it's kind of unfair but kind of fair too
20:18:14 <elliott> i see
20:19:51 <kmc> interleaving strict handle IO with your logic is a lot more awkward in Haskell than other languages
20:20:17 <kmc> it pushes your code further from nice idiomatic Haskell
20:21:02 <kmc> so the enumeratoritataritaratee drama is relevant to the high level question of "can you do webdev / whatever nicely in idiomatic Haskell"
20:21:09 <zzo38> :kmc: What do you mean by that, exactly?
20:21:21 <zzo38> What does "interleaving strict handle IO with your logic" mean?
20:22:30 <elliott> kmc: Sure it's awkward, but it's still possible.
20:22:33 <kmc> it means every piece of code is an IO action and is like "do { computeFoo; x <- readMoreShit; computeBar x }"
20:22:42 <elliott> And it's, e.g. less awkward than C because of all the concerns you don't have to worry about.
20:22:46 <elliott> (But more awkward than Python or whatever.)
20:23:05 <kmc> "better than C for webdev"
20:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, finished that megabeast-infested world.
20:23:09 <kmc> what a high bar you've set elliott
20:23:11 <elliott> kmc: Yes!
20:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It's... a total shithole, it seems.
20:23:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's it like?
20:23:19 <elliott> Anyway, it's not as if processing streaming data is all *that* relevant to web dev.
20:23:23 <elliott> Especially if you don't need file uploads.
20:23:25 <kmc> yeah yeah
20:23:37 <kmc> i'm not trying to be the "Haskell is broken, CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" guy
20:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well the most common cause of death seems to be werebeast.
20:23:42 <elliott> Anyway I don't really think the argument is very relevant, but that's mostly because I have a strong position on it :)
20:23:47 <kmc> but i think this is pretty important
20:23:52 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:23:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like inner-city Glasgow
20:24:13 <kmc> there are a lot of tasks which are much easier in Haskell than other languages
20:24:17 <kmc> but there are also some which are much harder
20:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact I get the impression that basically everyone's either dead from megabeasts, dead from werebeasts, or a werebeast.
20:24:30 <kmc> i gotta go eat lunch now though
20:24:31 <kmc> ttyl
20:24:48 <zzo38> kmc: Why does every piece of code need to be IO action? I find that doesn't need like that at all
20:25:07 <Taneb> "ttly"!?
20:25:14 <Taneb> ta-ta you later?
20:25:57 <Sgeo> Isn't there some library that's supposed to make Webdev in C++ nice?
20:26:01 <Sgeo> (Or is it C, I forget)
20:26:19 <olsner> Sgeo: PHP is written in C, iirc
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20:26:34 <Sgeo> http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
20:26:47 <Taneb> olsner, does that count as making it "nice"?
20:27:08 <zzo38> kmc: What is "interleaving strict handle IO"?
20:28:45 <elliott> 21:23 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:29:30 <elliott> I agree with Tekmo a lot more than Snoyman (although I think both of them approach the argument terribly making it essentially fruitless), but I also don't think Tekmo's solution is all that good :P
20:29:41 <elliott> Disagreeing with everyone is usually the best position.
20:30:02 <ion> I disagree.
20:30:04 <olsner> disagreeing with everyone must mean that you're the only one who's right
20:30:20 <elliott> Yes!
20:30:33 <monqy> can i disagree with everyone too
20:32:01 <Taneb> No, that'd be stupid
20:34:01 <olsner> monqy: yes, but unfortunately it seems you have to agree with either me or Taneb about whether or not you can disagree with everyone
20:34:19 <Taneb> olsner, no he doesn't
20:34:26 <Taneb> He could take a third option
20:35:05 <olsner> which third option?
20:35:25 <Taneb> "No, but it's not stupid"
20:37:56 <olsner> Breaking news from Sweden: "Boy and grandfather seriously injured"
20:38:37 <Taneb> No they weren't
20:38:43 <olsner> oh well, at least the cannibal drug has disappeared from reporting
20:40:20 <Taneb> No it hasn't
20:41:10 <olsner> Taneb: I am glad you agree
20:42:21 <Taneb> So am I
20:44:03 <zzo38> I have written the "dvi-processing" package which use IO and non-IO together and it doesn't need every piece of code to be an IO action like your example code above, and I don't think any program needs to be like that
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21:46:21 <Sgeo> Was going to write a quick thing in Racket, but I need formatting directives, and it seems like a bit of a pain
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22:17:52 <Hybris> hi
22:19:00 <Gregor> `welcome Hybris
22:19:03 <HackEgo> Hybris: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:20:10 <Hybris> Oh, so that's what this is. Like brainfuck?
22:20:49 <Sgeo> Yes
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22:24:05 <elliott> im enjoying myself
22:29:50 <itidus20> that's not a bad idea
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22:41:18 <monqy> @ping
22:41:18 <lambdabot> pong
22:41:25 <monqy> :'(
22:41:29 <fizzie> @ding
22:41:30 <lambdabot> pong
22:41:38 <fizzie> That really should say "dong".
22:42:03 <fizzie> ("Haha, you said 'dong'." Okay, maybe not.)
22:43:30 <Sgeo> @pong
22:43:30 <lambdabot> pong
22:43:32 <Sgeo> @dong
22:43:33 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do docs ping
22:44:55 <nortti_> @plng
22:44:56 <lambdabot> pong
22:45:03 <nortti_> @pmng
22:45:03 <lambdabot> pong
22:45:07 <Sgeo> I did a bad thing
22:45:29 <Sgeo> I accidentally caused my gf to start focusing more on LSL than on Haskell
22:45:33 <fizzie> @p1ng
22:45:33 <lambdabot> pong
22:45:34 <fizzie> So 31337.
22:45:43 <Gregor> !tink
22:45:44 <fizzie> @91ng
22:45:44 <lambdabot> pong
22:45:48 <Gregor> Err, dahell
22:45:49 <Gregor> @tink
22:45:49 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: kind ping time
22:45:51 <Gregor> Pff
22:46:15 <fizzie> @p1n6
22:46:16 <lambdabot> pong
22:46:22 <Gregor> @hell elliott I'M GIVING YOU HELL
22:46:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: help tell
22:46:25 <Gregor> *snaps*
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22:46:44 <fizzie> Very good. Sadly 91n6 is one typo too many.
22:48:36 <fizzie> @73ll f1zz13 ur s0 1337 h4x0r
22:48:36 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:49:02 <itidus20> @nightmare
22:49:02 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:49:26 <fizzie> Is there an expiration time for messages, incidentally?
23:03:28 <itidus20> Sgeo: via google, is that linden scripting language?
23:03:43 <Sgeo> itidus20, yes
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23:39:39 * Sgeo wonders what Shen is like
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