←2012-06-05 2012-06-06 2012-06-07→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:11:28 <Sgeo> Blah
00:11:41 <Sgeo> There will be other transits in my lifetime, right? Not of venus, but... wait, hmm
00:12:27 <oerjan> i'd guess mercury would be more frequent?
00:12:56 <Sgeo> According to Wikipedia, yep
00:13:01 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Mercury
00:13:02 <oerjan> "Transits of Mercury with respect to Earth are much more frequent than transits of Venus, with about 13 or 14 per century, in part because Mercury is closer to the Sun and orbits it more rapidly."
00:13:29 <Sgeo> Other planets don't have transits, right?
00:13:53 <oerjan> they don't tend to come between the earth and the sun, no
00:14:56 * oerjan str he saw the one in 2004, anyhow
00:15:33 <pikhq_> Sgeo: If they do, the end is not merely nigh.
00:24:06 <quintopia> well the sun has set :/
00:24:11 <quintopia> scumbag sun
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00:27:50 <oerjan> should be coming up here in a while
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00:28:04 <oerjan> i don't have any proper viewing equipment, alas
00:28:32 <quintopia> you can make it
00:28:46 <quintopia> buy a mylar balloon or pop tarts or emergency blankets
00:28:55 <quintopia> tape it to binoculars or sunglasses
00:32:33 <oerjan> well of course i could have made it if i'd bothered to get such stuff in time :P
00:33:34 <oerjan> i suspect it's cloudy, anyhow
00:35:10 <zzo38> Currently I have: ecliptic longitude of Sun 75.72, ecliptic longitude of Mercury 87.08, ecliptic latitude of Mercury +1deg46arcmin.
00:35:52 <zzo38> I can give the right ascension and declination as well if wanted
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00:36:48 <zzo38> How do you mean the other planets do not have transits? They do, but they are hidden because the Sun is in the way.
00:38:48 <zzo38> Anyways, I have not seen even the transit of Mercury, because it would be dangerous to look at the sun
00:39:18 <quintopia> zzo38: have you constructed a solar filter for yourself? there is still time to look
00:39:56 <zzo38> quintopia: O, no I have not. How to do?
00:40:22 <quintopia> zzo38: can you get a mylar balloon or pop tarts at the grocery store?
00:40:58 <zzo38> Not at this time.
00:42:25 <quintopia> o, well, the transit ends in 4 hours
00:42:38 <zzo38> I could still look at photographs and I have looked at the one mentioned above
00:43:17 <zzo38> I cannot see it anyways; there is stuff in the way
00:44:09 <oerjan> weird, grey, puffy stuff
00:44:49 <quintopia> zzo38: in about 6 hours after the transit ends, SDO will release a HD video of the whole thing
00:44:55 <zzo38> I mean like houses and so on
00:46:52 <zzo38> And trees too
00:50:12 <monqy> i'd look at the sun but then my eyes would hurt
00:50:23 <monqy> even looking out the window makes my eyes hurt wow
00:50:40 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't want HD video; HD wastes too much energy.
00:51:26 <zzo38> Not only that, but I do not have a wide screen TV set.
00:52:59 <zzo38> Ecliptic longitude of Venus 75.76 degrees and ecliptic latitude 1deg 47arcmin, so it is very close to Sun.
00:53:19 <zzo38> But sometimes it is on the other side and cannot be seen. This time it is on the closer side
00:56:20 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm sure people with release a downsampled version very quickly after it is released
00:57:10 <quintopia> SDO jusut released a video
00:58:52 <quintopia> zzo38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdHM55XDhJ0
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01:14:24 <MDude> Well I guess that's a bit more impressive than the version my dad projected onto a wall with binoculars.
01:15:01 <MDude> It was still neat seeing it more in-person, though.
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01:46:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/JORU
01:46:29 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_poke: 48.0
01:47:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/ZFOf
01:47:25 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_poke: 48.4
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02:03:53 <MDude> Ok, now I'm connected again I think.
02:04:04 <MDude> I tihnk I made some kind of dirtbike emulator.
02:04:05 <MDude> http://entropedia.co.uk/generative_music_1.2_beta/#b64MzQw0DbQMwACE63izDwNjRJ9U007O0NDTS2NEq0SOzuTGt%2FEkgy94sKiEo0STU0A
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02:48:45 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you have a Theora version of the video which is also not HD?
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03:02:06 <ais523> "This opcode ANDs the contents of the A and X registers (without changing
03:02:08 <ais523> the contents of either register) and transfers the result to the stack
03:02:09 <ais523> pointer. It then ANDs that result with the contents of the high byte of
03:02:10 <ais523> the target address of the operand +1 and stores that final result in
03:02:12 <ais523> memory."
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03:03:03 <zzo38> For what computer?
03:04:20 <ais523> oh, but not /always/, it seems to depend on the video behaviour
03:04:27 <ais523> and 6502
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03:17:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust test http://sprunge.us/GVHP
03:17:41 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_test: 46.7
03:18:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust test <
03:18:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_test: 0.0
03:18:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/GVHP
03:18:15 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 47.1
03:20:05 <quintopia> well that double-check was more important than i though XD
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03:24:40 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QPjQ
03:24:44 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
03:24:51 <quintopia> grah stupid syntax errors
03:25:13 <zzo38> ais523: Why not always?
03:25:34 <ais523> zzo38: it's unclear, but seems to have something to do with the video system
03:25:46 <ais523> the instruction wasn't added to the CPU deliberately, it's what happens if you feed it particular invalid data
03:26:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/fjRh
03:26:14 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
03:26:19 <quintopia> wat
03:26:24 <zzo38> But, isn't the CPU supposed to be separate from the video?
03:28:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/YILB
03:28:59 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 47.3
03:32:17 <quintopia> ohhhhh
03:32:19 <quintopia> right
03:35:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/OHfC
03:35:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.3
03:54:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QKbN
03:54:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.5
04:00:05 <tswett> Suppose a process has a file, A, open for appending. While that's true, I delete A. What happens?
04:00:25 <Sgeo_> "Clojure multimethods go further still to allow the dispatch value to be the result of an arbitrary function of the arguments."
04:00:35 <Sgeo_> Hmm, that's interesting
04:00:43 <tswett> Can the process still say "append to this file" just like it did before? Will the data simply be discarded immediately?
04:00:56 <Sgeo_> I think I'm starting to see Clojure as an interesting language crippled by being tied to the JVM
04:01:53 <ais523> <zzo38> But, isn't the CPU supposed to be separate from the video? <-- in those days there generally wasn't a separate GPU, so the video stuff ran on the CPU
04:02:07 <zzo38> What are multimethods?
04:02:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/bQiL
04:02:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 45.0
04:02:42 <quintopia> huh
04:02:57 <Sgeo_> The way the page describes them, they're like CLOS's generic functions, except with more flexible dispatch
04:03:10 <Sgeo_> http://clojure.org/runtime_polymorphism
04:05:32 <oerjan> tswett: i vaguely recall it becomes an inode not referred from any directory and so is purged when the file is closed
04:05:44 <oerjan> _very_ vaguely
04:06:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/JJIW
04:06:20 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 50.8
04:06:20 <tswett> Ah, that would make sense.
04:06:45 <tswett> Would it be possible for the process that has it open to create another link to it?
04:07:02 <oerjan> i don't know
04:07:32 <oerjan> read the manual :P
04:08:56 <oerjan> http://www.tutorialspoint.com/unix_system_calls/unlink.htm
04:09:10 <oerjan> i think that's the underlying system call
04:14:48 <oerjan> tswett: presumably you could create another hard link _before_ it's deleted, at least
04:20:41 <oerjan> xkcd :P
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04:40:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/UUJa
04:40:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.2
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05:13:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust myndzi_slowrush_fixed >(+)*22>(-)*22(>++++++>------)*1>+>->->+(>[[-(+)*22[-]]+>[+(-)*22[+]]->][-]+)*21
05:13:08 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_myndzi_slowrush_fixed: 29.5
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05:15:07 <quintopia> @tell myndzi help us kill vibration by modifying slowrush to >(+)*22>(-)*22(>++++++>------)*1>+>->->+(>[[-(+)*22[-]]+>[+(-)*22[+]]->][-]+)*21
05:15:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
05:15:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust myndzi_slowrush_fixed <
05:15:24 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_myndzi_slowrush_fixed: 0.0
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05:22:50 <quintopia> `welcome canaima172422
05:22:58 <HackEgo> canaima172422: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:13 <canaima172422> :-D
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05:44:39 <quintopia> @tell asiekierka_ hi
05:44:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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05:56:53 <zzo38> asiekierka_: Did you add the XKCD variation of Deadfish? If so, why?
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06:18:40 <quintopia> @tell Gregor is possible to have egojsout stop printing lines of a round after 2000 (and put in a "load more lines" link)? it takes forever to load defense runs and most of the time the interesting stuff happens in the first 2000 cycles
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06:35:01 <Taneb> Hello
06:35:20 <quintopia> hi
06:45:12 <ion> Max Payne 3: Dramatic Chilling Simulator http://youtu.be/eWMiIJ6B-7k
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07:14:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust impomatic_lessdumb <
07:15:03 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_impomatic_lessdumb: 0.0
07:17:26 <fizzie> How dumb is dumb is '<' is less dumb?
07:17:33 <fizzie> s/is '/if '/
07:19:31 <quintopia> lessdumb used to have a higher score than dumb
07:19:58 <quintopia> but changes to the scoreboard had caused dumb to be beating lessdumb
07:20:08 <quintopia> so, i deleted it
07:30:29 <Sgeo> Why is Clojure interesting me?
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07:56:28 <Taneb> Hello
07:57:09 <graue> hi
07:57:24 <zzo38> Can you show me what some of the documentations for Prelude.Generalize that you have written? I will add some of them on
07:57:37 <Taneb> zzo38, it's a bit skeletal at the moment
07:58:01 <Taneb> But I'll paste it somewhere
07:58:38 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69580
07:59:57 <Taneb> Also, I'm unsure if that's correct Haddock markup
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08:36:30 <Taneb> zzo38, haddock doesn't like something
08:37:37 <fizzie> Perhaps Haddock doesn't like you.
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08:39:32 <Taneb> Perhaps
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08:50:55 <Sgeo> WTF
08:50:57 <Sgeo> "If this were written as a function instead of a macro, we would have to pass #(Math/sin %) instead of simply Math/sin for the function."
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09:01:57 <Taneb> This is frustrating me
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09:11:56 <Sgeo> "java methods aren't first class objects"
09:12:00 * Sgeo bibbles insanely
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09:42:39 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3450418413289 ; the latest in my Facebook-status novelization of my China trip.
09:43:46 <Taneb> Gregor, that is getting a Like
09:45:50 <ion> gregor: hehe
09:49:29 <Gregor> I'm afraid I've set the bar too high though X-D
09:49:32 <Gregor> I can't go up from here.
09:57:01 <mroman> Sgeo: ?
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10:06:22 <Sgeo> mroman, it feels inconsistent, and something I wish I didn't have to care about
10:06:46 <Sgeo> Although I guess it makes sense, but I'm not exactly looking for Java interop
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10:27:02 <Sgeo> Argh
10:27:17 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or would Clojure be great if it weren't for the whole Java interoperability thing?
10:37:23 <mroman> Clojure would be great if it hadn't anything to do with java
10:37:30 <mroman> i.e not running on jvm an such.
10:37:43 <mroman> *and
10:38:42 <Sgeo> I don't think the JVM's the bad part, it's more that it tries to match the JVM's model so that it works with Java
10:39:11 <Sgeo> If it ignored Java interop yet ran on the JVM, I think it would still be able to do things like TCO and condition system (I might be mistaken)
11:14:31 <fizzie> JVM has all kinds of curious restrictions on the bytecode, I'm not entirely certain that would be completely true.
11:15:59 <fizzie> If you can get somewhere via multiple branches, all the branches must provably have the same stack effect. and there's no "tail-invoke" opcode.
11:17:34 <fizzie> The latter could I guess be workarounded by having your entire program be a single JVM function, but I think that might hit some other limitations.
11:18:38 <fizzie> At least it would limit all programs to be less than 64k bytes.
11:19:03 <fizzie> (That's the maximum size for the code of a method.)
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13:16:25 <elliott> atehwa: hi
13:16:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:35:40 <elliott> > compare "Deadfish~" "Deadfish x"
13:35:41 <lambdabot> GT
13:35:50 <elliott> > compare "Deadfish~" "Deadfishx"
13:35:51 <lambdabot> GT
13:35:56 <elliott> > compare "a" "b"
13:35:56 <lambdabot> LT
13:36:05 <elliott> hmmm
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13:36:44 <olsner> > sort "~ x"
13:36:45 <lambdabot> " x~"
13:38:25 <ion> > sort "hi"
13:38:26 <lambdabot> "hi"
13:39:45 <olsner> > sort "ion"
13:39:46 <lambdabot> "ino"
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13:42:26 <fizzie> A sortino is the fundamental particle of sorting algorithms.
13:44:27 <ion> > sort "alphabetsoup"
13:44:27 <lambdabot> "aabehloppstu"
13:44:41 <ion> > sort "discostu"
13:44:42 <lambdabot> "cdiosstu"
13:46:44 <olsner> sortinos come in a range of bogosities, from the bogosortino to the quicksortino
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13:48:42 <elliott> atehwa: Out of curiosity, do you still have the ability/time/will to administrate the lang@esoteric.sange.fi mailing list? Someone has proposed reviving it on the wiki.
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14:04:04 <elliott> 8/7
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14:10:40 <elliott> shachaf: "I would much rather write in C/pythonic notation and have Haskell figure out its monadic translation by itself. It does figure out the types, why not monads?"
14:11:05 <olsner> C/pythonic :D
14:11:11 <elliott> Brought to you by the author of the "Monad" HaskellWiki page!
14:15:58 <ion> :-D
14:16:31 <elliott> (Don't read that page.)
14:16:33 <elliott> (It's really bad.)
14:16:40 <ion> I would much rather write in APL/Java notation.
14:16:50 * ion reads that page.
14:16:57 <elliott> APL/Java sounds bad enough that it could probably be great.
14:17:41 <elliott> ion: The best part is that the only monad it describes is Identity.
14:17:57 <ion> There are other monads than Identity, huh?
14:18:05 <elliott> No. I lied!
14:19:08 <ion> The essence of monad is thus separation of composition timeline from the composed computation's execution timeline
14:19:10 <ion> ಠ_ಠ
14:20:17 <elliott> ion: You forgot the ITALICS.
14:20:45 <elliott> Anyone who uses bold italics exclusively when just bold will do is terrible. That is my law.
14:22:15 <ion> He also uses both simultaneously.
14:22:28 <elliott> ion: That's what I meant.
14:22:34 <elliott> Bold italics is text that is both bold and italic.
14:22:57 <ion> Whoops, i missed the first “bold” in your line.
14:22:59 <olsner> apparently the combination of APL and Java is not completely unexplored
14:23:14 <elliott> ion: No, using bold when just italics would do is probably another sin.
14:23:18 <elliott> olsner: I think J has a Java interface.
14:23:28 <olsner> I also found a couple of papers about "Using an APL approach with Java" and "An interface between Java and APL"
14:23:47 <olsner> also, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9795215/apl-and-java-interface
14:29:49 <elliott> @pl [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:49 <lambdabot> [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:53 <elliott> @undo [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:53 <lambdabot> concatMap (\ (y, n) -> [(y, IM.toAscList n)]) IM.toAscList m
14:29:57 <elliott> @. pl undo [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:57 <lambdabot> m
14:29:59 <elliott> what
14:30:08 <olsner> m
14:30:08 <elliott> oh
14:30:11 <elliott> undo is broken
14:30:18 <elliott> @pl concatMap (\ (y, n) -> [(y, IM.toAscList n)]) (IM.toAscList m)
14:30:18 <lambdabot> uncurry (flip flip [] . ((:) .) . (. IM.toAscList) . (,)) =<< IM.toAscList m
14:30:21 <elliott> ew
14:38:24 <elliott> E[C E[1C
14:43:41 <elliott> Backup to self: http://sprunge.us/jPKh
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14:56:15 <elliott> Oh, Ray Bradbury died.
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14:57:03 <Taneb> Hello
14:57:07 <elliott> Hi.
14:58:23 <ion> elliott: Manual escape sequences are eeeevyl.
14:58:37 <elliott> ion: Have you seen the curses API recently?
14:59:21 <ion> Is http://hackage.haskell.org/package/terminfo- horrible? (A sincere question, i haven’t looked.)
14:59:48 <elliott> I don't know, but terminfo is a Bad Idea for my purposes.
15:00:18 <elliott> Manual escape sequences are much better.
15:00:47 <nortti> yeah. everything should support ANSI escape codes
15:01:46 <elliott> ion: In particular, using terminfo and such has the tendency to mess up ttyrecs.
15:02:00 <elliott> Because, e.g. rxvt's terminfo stuff likes to use escape sequences that don't work on xterm.
15:02:10 <elliott> So, e.g. all the dark grey text shows up as black on xterm.
15:02:19 <elliott> Even though there's a way to show dark grey text that works on both.
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15:10:28 <ion> If you’re building on a pile of ancient crap that would need an entire rewrite, why not make a good architecture from the very beginning? The storing of ttyrecs doesn’t need to have *anything* to do with that is presented to the user’s big 256-color Unicode terminal or web tiles interface.
15:11:17 <ion> I agree, manual escape codes for the lowest common denominator might be the way to go with ttyrecs.
15:13:16 <Taneb> If you're building on a pile of ancient crap, the archaeologists and anthropologist might get angry.
15:13:27 <nortti> :P
15:13:27 <Taneb> Or the paleontologists, depending on how ancient the crap is.
15:13:57 <ion> On the other hand, the scatologists might appreciate your efforts.
15:15:20 <elliott> ion: People still use termcast, regardless of whether it's the best way to present replays and so on.
15:15:53 <elliott> ion: More importantly, there's only about 40-50 lines of my program that care about ANSI escape codes. Why bother using a library?
15:16:04 <elliott> Everything supports ANSI escapes, and they're trivial to output.
15:16:09 <ion> So make one of the pluggable “interfaces” one that feeds the same data to a termcast server as to a ttyrec file. :-P
15:16:29 <elliott> ion: Feel free to send a patch. It must be less than 50 lines.
15:16:59 <elliott> ion: (Preferably it would also include a URL to a modern terminal emulator that does not support basic ANSI escape codes.)
15:17:42 <nortti> does widows command line window support ANSI?
15:17:59 <elliott> There's an ANSI.SYS thing.
15:18:08 <elliott> But it's bad.
15:18:11 <elliott> But I don't think Windows supports terminfo, either!
15:18:23 <nortti> but wasn't ANSI.SYS for dos
15:18:23 <ion> AJAX doesn’t support ANSI natively.
15:18:33 <elliott> ion: That is not a terminal emulator.
15:18:41 <elliott> nortti: Oh, probably.
15:19:06 <Deewiant> curses supports Windows!
15:19:35 <nortti> Deewiant: but doesn't that require importing different headers or something?
15:19:37 <elliott> Deewiant: curses has the curses API.
15:19:43 <elliott> nortti: I'm not using C.
15:19:55 <nortti> elliott: what language are you using?
15:20:02 <Deewiant> The curses API is fine enough
15:20:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, I can trivially make something that draws the terminal via SDL or such, given my API.
15:20:10 <elliott> And not really.
15:20:11 <elliott> nortti: Haskell.
15:20:19 <Deewiant> It's the implementation that's annoying, with it calling exit() on some errors and such.
15:22:35 <elliott> @hoogle [(a,[(b,c)])] -> [((a,b),c)]
15:22:36 <lambdabot> No results found
15:22:45 <elliott> Deewiant: You should implement that for me! ^
15:23:18 <elliott> \xs -> concatMap (\(x,ys) -> map (\(y,v) -> ((x,y),v)) ys) -- so ugly. :(
15:23:21 <nortti> hoogle?
15:23:25 <Deewiant> ?ty \xs -> [ ((a,b),c) | (a,ys) <- xs, (b,c) <- ys ]
15:23:26 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2. [(t, [(t1, t2)])] -> [((t, t1), t2)]
15:23:27 <elliott> nortti:
15:23:29 <elliott> @hoogle a -> a
15:23:29 <lambdabot> Prelude id :: a -> a
15:23:29 <lambdabot> Data.Function id :: a -> a
15:23:29 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a
15:23:31 <elliott> @hoogle map
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
15:23:39 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> b -> c) -> (b -> a -> c)
15:23:39 <lambdabot> Prelude flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
15:23:40 <lambdabot> Data.Function flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
15:23:40 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap fold :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> IntMap a -> b
15:27:09 <elliott> ion: http://sprunge.us/TeiN -- the only place that deals with ANSI stuff is renderActions, which is fairly ugly, but I'm going to rewrite it to be a bit less ugly.
15:28:04 <elliott> And you could just as easily write, e.g. renderActionsSDL :: [Action] -> IO ().
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15:29:41 <elliott> Actually you wouldn't want to use [Action] there.
15:29:45 <elliott> Just the updates list.
15:29:50 <elliott> But that doesn't matter.
15:33:11 <elliott> ion: So what reason is there to avoid ANSI escapes, anyway?
15:36:47 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/acme-colosson/0.1/doc/html/Acme-Colosson.html
15:37:27 <elliott> That's kmc's package.
15:37:36 <Taneb> kmc is real?
15:39:28 <Taneb> I may make Numberwang into a fully fledged joke language
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15:41:18 <nortti> @ping
15:41:18 <lambdabot> pong
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15:44:31 <elliott> Backup to self: http://sprunge.us/EiYY (What's version control?)
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15:58:59 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, does autopickup actually *save turns* in NetHack?
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16:09:13 <elliott> @ask ais523 Did you fix that NetHack 4 message fix yet? :(
16:09:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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16:10:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/PSEi
16:10:53 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.2
16:11:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/UUJa
16:11:36 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.4
16:13:38 <quintopia> Gregor: schoolchidren wanted pictures with me when i was in china. what does this say about the differences between us?
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16:42:56 <elliott_> fizzie: Hey.
16:43:06 <elliott_> fizzie: You know stuff that futzes with the terminal and then puts it back?
16:43:09 <elliott_> fizzie: How do they reset the colour?
16:43:11 <elliott_> When quitting.
16:43:27 <elliott_> Oh, just by switching to the alternate screen stuff?
16:43:29 <elliott_> (How do you do that?
16:43:31 <elliott_> s/$/)/
16:45:11 <fizzie> That, maybe, or DECSC/DECRC, "save/restore current state (cursor coordinates, attributes, character sets); \e7 and \e8.
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16:47:18 <elliott_> fizzie: Right. I think I'd like to use the alternate screen anyway, though.
16:47:28 <elliott_> Is that guaranteed to be in any particular state when you switch to it?
16:48:45 <fizzie> Well, it's a common thing to do. If you were doing terminfo, it would be the 'smcup' (start) and 'rmcup' (stop) properties. I would think it could be in any sort of state.
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16:50:14 <Gregor> <quintopia> Gregor: schoolchidren wanted pictures with me when i was in china. what does this say about the differences between us? // Nothing good for you, I'm afraid.
16:50:24 <elliott_> fizzie: So there's no fairly-reliable cross-terminal way to use it?
16:50:48 <fizzie> \E[?1049h and \E[r\E[?1049l for my rxvt-unicode, and I think it's the same for xterm and anything else that's "modern".
16:50:57 <elliott_> Wow, how ugly.
16:51:00 <elliott_> What does that do on the console?
16:52:41 <nortti> what should it do?
16:52:46 <fizzie> \E[r seems to be a "reset scrolling region to default". console_codes(4) doesn't list 1049 in the list of DECSET/DECRST stuffs it supports, so perhaps nothing.
16:53:57 <elliott_> So how does stuff go to the alternate screen on the console? Or is that not a thing you can do?
16:54:04 <nortti> for me it only moves cursor to 1,1
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16:54:17 <fizzie> I don't think it has an alternate screen, no.
16:54:42 <fizzie> There's no smcup/rmcup in my 'linux' terminfo entry.
16:54:54 <elliott_> fizzie: So how does vi reset the colours on the console? I guess the \e7 and \e8 things.
16:54:59 <elliott_> (Is that really \e7 and not \e[7?)
16:55:05 <fizzie> It's really \e7.
16:55:19 <elliott_> It upsets me a bit that you have to rely on some internal piece of state to do this.
16:55:26 <elliott_> I mean, what if I want to do another \e7 later???
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16:56:00 <fizzie> Perhaps you'd better not want to.
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16:57:02 <elliott_> Mayhaps.
16:57:04 <elliott_> It upsets me still.
16:57:36 <fizzie> It's also not perfectly clear how much state \e7 / \e8 save/restore. Seems to depend a bit on the terminal.
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17:01:49 <fizzie> FWIW, screen's "alternate screen" sequences are also \E[?1049h and \E[?1049h, so those seem quite widespread. (It lacks the rxvt-unicode scrolling region reset, but certainly doing that won't *hurt*. Of course if you don't change it, it's probably not necessary either.)
17:02:38 <nortti> on fbcon it seems that \e7 saves cursor position and colours
17:03:49 <fizzie> It seems to save colours also on urxvt.
17:03:59 <nortti> how do those "alternate screen" sequences work?
17:04:17 <fizzie> "Xterm maintains two screen buffers. The normal screen buffer allows you to scroll back to view saved lines of output up to the maximum set by the saveLines resource. The alternate screen buffer is exactly as large as the display, contains no additional saved lines. When the alternate screen buffer is active, you cannot scroll back to view saved lines."
17:04:23 <fizzie> They enable and disable that.
17:05:01 <nortti> okay. but why?
17:05:37 <fizzie> It's meant for full-screen terminal applications that want to do their stuffs, yet not mess with whatever you've got going on in your terminal. Plus scrolling around when that's on is just confusing, perhaps.
17:06:33 <fizzie> (To be strict, 1047 enables/disables the alternate screen, 1048 does the same as \e7 and \e8, and 1049 combines both, so you need just one sequence to get back.)
17:06:56 <elliott_> nortti: Run vi. Quit. Notice the lack of vi screen in between two shell lines
17:07:13 <nortti> elliott_: i see it
17:07:43 <elliott_> Not in xterm/rxvt, you don't.
17:08:19 <nortti> elliott_: well I don't have X handy right now
17:08:30 <elliott_> Your problem.
17:09:59 <fizzie> nortti: You can run it inside screen if you want to taste the power.
17:10:09 <nortti> fizzie: I still see it
17:10:28 <fizzie> Apparently. Just tested.
17:10:43 <fizzie> Well, then; maybe screen doesn't bother emulating it when it's not hardwaristically supported. Funny, though.
17:10:58 <fizzie> altscreen on|off
17:10:58 <fizzie> If set to on, "alternate screen" support is enabled in virtual terminals, just like in xterm. Initial setting is `off'.
17:11:02 <fizzie> Oh, it's just an option.
17:11:37 <nortti> is that in .screenrc?
17:11:56 <fizzie> You can turn it on temporarily with ^A:altscreen on
17:12:03 <fizzie> Seemed to work for me.
17:12:19 <fizzie> It'll say "will do alternate screen switching".
17:12:37 <nortti> I still see it
17:13:05 <fizzie> Well, I didn't, in Linux console, under screen, with :altscreen on. Don't know what's up with that.
17:13:39 <fizzie> Maybe you could try vim or something, if that's not your vi. Or just plain echo -e'ing those escapades.
17:13:46 <nortti> got X running. I see it even in xterm
17:14:05 <nortti> oh. my vi is busybox vi
17:14:09 <fizzie> Well, then.
17:14:26 <fizzie> It perhaps doesn't bother with anything so bourgeoisie.
17:15:32 <shachaf> elliott_: Yes, autopickup actually saves turns.
17:15:38 <shachaf> It's ridiculous, isn't it?
17:17:21 <elliott_> shachaf: :(
17:17:51 <shachaf> elliott_: Haven't you heard that automatic things are time-savers?
17:18:12 <elliott_> shachaf: :(
17:18:23 <elliott_> shachaf: I think I will go back to playing Crawl.
17:18:36 <elliott_> (You should play Crawl. I'd watch and laugh at you!)
17:18:38 <shachaf> elliott_: You gotta ascend at least once, man!
17:18:51 <elliott_> Yes. Later in my life.
17:19:09 <elliott_> "If pickup_types is left as all, then autopickup can be used whenever it is necessary to pick up items on a teleport trap or hole (for example, in Sokoban) where the player would otherwise not have a chance to pick up the items before being whisked away."
17:21:25 <elliott_> shachaf: i;m sad
17:21:41 <elliott_> 18:21 <Sequell> 551 games for shachaf: 551x cao
17:21:45 <elliott_> shachaf: You play on the Wrong Server.
17:21:54 <shachaf> I don't play at all.
17:22:33 <elliott_> Played. Same thing.
17:24:06 <elliott_> fizzie: So, uh, that escape isn't working for me.
17:24:10 <elliott_> ( execWriter $ tell "\ESC[0m\ESC[2J\ESC[?1049h" >> switchAll plainAttribs
17:24:17 <elliott_> -- yet it just uses the normal screen.
17:27:43 <quintopia> Gregor: why are you in china anyway?
17:30:14 <elliott_> fizzie: :'(
17:32:36 <Gregor> quintopia: I've been Shanghai'd to Beijing.
17:32:59 <quintopia> Gregor: there are worse places. why?
17:33:27 <fizzie> elliott_: I'unno. It works in this urxvt with echo -e '\e[?1049hfoo' and goes back with echo -e '\e[?1049l properly.
17:33:33 <Gregor> quintopia: Conference.
17:34:03 <quintopia> Gregor: who is hosting it?
17:34:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Oh, that actually works.
17:34:11 <elliott_> I was just hallucinimating that it wasn't.
17:34:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Hosting in what sense >_>
17:34:19 <Gregor> quintopia: It's PLDI and ECOOP.
17:34:25 <quintopia> ah
17:34:42 <quintopia> when must you take your last chinese massage and return home?
17:37:09 <elliott_> Gregor: he;s stalking yuo
17:37:16 <elliott_> quintopia: is yuore' scorin g done
17:40:23 <quintopia> elliott_: no. i prefer my scoring medium rare.
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18:07:49 <nortti> "Death by sneezing"
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18:47:06 <ion> Dumbest Girls Ever Steal Girl Scout Money from a 9 year old http://youtu.be/CAcLGSFMFiQ
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18:59:43 <Taneb> Hello!
19:01:00 <Phantom__Hoover> OK Psychonauts' absolutely terrible controls have actually reached the point that I can't progress due to having no idea which key changes page in the inventory.
19:01:30 <Phantom__Hoover> I *think* it said 'z' but the message went away too quickly to be sure.
19:01:37 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, what is it for you?
19:01:50 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: It's "2".
19:01:55 <shachaf> I know, confusing.
19:02:01 <shachaf> I was confused too.
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19:02:12 <shachaf> And it means you can't switch straight to abilities from inventory anymore?
19:02:35 <shachaf> I don't know.
19:02:41 <shachaf> Which levelplacething are you at?
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19:05:31 <Phantom___Hoover> shachaf, Milkman Conspiracy.
19:05:45 <shachaf> Good level.
19:05:54 <shachaf> place
19:05:54 <shachaf> thing
19:06:47 <ion> yes
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19:08:39 <shachaf> ion: Did you play Psychonauts?
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19:10:39 <shachaf> kmc: Did you?
19:10:43 <kmc> did i what?
19:11:30 <shachaf> Play Psychonauts?
19:11:38 <kmc> no
19:11:38 <Phantom___Hoover> shachaf, I keep falling off though because I'm impatient and always use levitate to move around.
19:11:40 <kmc> i hear it's good
19:11:43 <shachaf> kmc: It's good.
19:11:52 <shachaf> You can get it at http://www.humblebundle.com/
19:12:01 <shachaf> They even have a GNU/X11/Linux version.
19:12:06 <quintopia> huh
19:12:14 <quintopia> i never had trouble with that stuff last time i played it
19:12:21 <olsner> GNU/X11, because X11 is only the kernel
19:12:36 <shachaf> Phantom___Hoover: So did I.
19:12:49 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, i had Psychonauts and Amnesia even before the HB.
19:13:15 <ion> I’ve loved Amnesia, Psychonauts and Bastion. I have yet to try the other two.
19:13:26 <shachaf> I had Psychonauts and I think Bastion before the HB.
19:13:44 <shachaf> But last time I tried Bastion it seemed uninteresting.
19:13:49 <shachaf> Admittedly it was only for a few minutes.
19:14:24 <Taneb> I have Amnesia on Steam
19:14:49 <ion> It seems to have a story that is revealed bit by bit, and i love how beautiful it looks and sounds.
19:14:52 <Taneb> Never played it
19:14:52 <Taneb> It doesn't like my video card or something
19:14:54 <ion> Bastion, that is.
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19:15:24 <ion> Amnesia has an amazing atmosphere. It should preferably be played in a dark room with headphones. :-)
19:15:32 <Taneb> I've been told that, yeah
19:16:08 <kmc> "it should be played in a dark room with headphones while coming up on shrooms"
19:17:23 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, you know what makes no sense.
19:17:26 <Sgeo> kmc, do you have thoughts on Clojure?
19:17:37 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Lotsa things?
19:17:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Even if you're invisible those agents will still catch you.
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19:18:17 <quintopia> of course it makes sense
19:18:56 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: They're agents! They're extremely competent, as you can tell.
19:19:21 <kmc> Sgeo: have used it only a little bit
19:19:24 <quintopia> it's in the super paranoid milkman's mind. invisibility is the art of making yourself very uninteresting, but a paranoid mind can't be fooled by such tricks
19:19:27 <kmc> seems pretty cool
19:19:49 <kmc> i like metaprogramming, i like lisps, and clojure is more likely than other lisps to be something you can use on "real" projects
19:20:08 <kmc> the main clojure guy really Gets It in terms of the relationship between functional and imperative programming
19:20:17 <Sgeo> To me, Java interop seems to poison it though
19:20:23 <kmc> he has a talk about the difference between identity, value, and state
19:20:34 <kmc> which is something clojure and haskell get right, and practically every other languages gets wrong
19:20:44 <kmc> clojure and haskell are technologically very different but philosophically close
19:20:55 <kmc> Sgeo: why is having that option a bad thing?
19:21:22 <Sgeo> It causes the language to be less useful
19:21:25 <Sgeo> erm, not useful
19:21:32 <Sgeo> Beautiful. It makes it less beautiful
19:21:42 <Sgeo> Try (map Math/sin [0 1 2 3])
19:21:59 <Sgeo> Then (map #(Math/sin %) [0 1 2 3])
19:23:13 <kmc> one of these does not work?
19:23:49 <Sgeo> The first does not.
19:24:12 <shachaf> I like how in JavaScript you can't say "var foo = console.log; foo(5);"
19:24:23 <shachaf> You can say foo = console.log.bind(console) or something like that, though.
19:24:39 <shachaf> Thnaks, cnosole.lgo)(!
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19:25:22 <ion> Ah, i was bitten by an equivalent problem just recently.
19:25:30 <kmc> Sgeo: that sucks :/
19:25:37 <kmc> is there a fundamental reason for that
19:25:39 <ion> I expected var foo = bar.baz; foo(…) to work.
19:25:47 <shachaf> ion: Now you know why!
19:25:53 <shachaf> (Maybe you knew why before too.)
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19:26:11 <shachaf> ion: Do you like how "eval(...);" isn't the same as "(5,eval)(...);"?
19:26:16 <ion> Actually, i still don’t know *why*. :-P
19:26:18 <kmc> only a silly egghead FP academic would expect that to work
19:26:29 <ion> shachaf: I like how ",,," == new Array(4)
19:26:35 <kmc> :O
19:26:40 <kmc> oh
19:26:45 <shachaf> ion: Because when you say foo.bar(), "this" is set to foo in bar's evaluation context thing.
19:27:23 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, i figured as much, but that just explain the problem, not *why*. :-P
19:27:33 <shachaf> Well, how would you do it?
19:27:36 <Sgeo> kmc, I think it's due to Math/sin being a Java static method?
19:27:50 <shachaf> Keeping in mind JS's prototypical OO thing and all that.
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19:28:11 <kmc> Sgeo: but why shouldn't those be callable like functions
19:28:13 <ion> shachaf: I haven’t actually thought about this that thorougly.
19:28:43 <kmc> does it go against some philosophical rule of Clojure, or is there some implementation difficulty, or they just haven't got around to making it work?
19:29:45 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2208865/how-do-i-pass-a-static-method-to-comp-in-clojure
19:30:21 <Sgeo> I'm guessing it goes against the philisophical rule of being a slave to easy Java interop
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19:31:46 <kmc> wait i'm confused
19:31:55 <kmc> are you saying they care too little about java interop to make this work?
19:31:56 <kmc> or too much?
19:32:02 <kmc> and in the latter case, how does that make any sense
19:32:53 <Sgeo> Too much... or maybe it's an efficiency thing? I don't actually know
19:32:58 <Sgeo> I'm not a Clojure designer
19:33:06 <Sgeo> #clojure does exist
19:33:31 <kmc> if they cared too much about java interop, then wouldn't they work hard to make java methods be first-class in clojure?
19:34:13 <Sgeo> kmc, do I have any chance of getting you to ask in #clojure , because I'm curious too
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19:36:58 <fizzie> shachaf: And if your browser isn't quite new enough to say console.log.bind(console), fortunately you can say something as obvious as http://p.zem.fi/jsbind to almost make it work except not really with the same semantics.
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19:37:56 <kmc> Sgeo: no
19:37:58 <kmc> sorry
19:38:06 * Sgeo asks
19:38:07 <kmc> but you could ask in #clojure ;P
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19:38:56 <Sgeo> <gtrak> Sgeo: clojure functions are each actually classes, java methods are just bytecode
19:42:39 <kmc> my question isn't so much "why are they different" as "why can't one be implicitly converted to the other"
19:45:28 <Sgeo> kmc, is this an adequate way to ask your question? <Sgeo> gtrak, is it not possible to, when Clojure sees a Java method being used in a context where a clojure function is expected, implictly make a clojure function or something like that?
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <amalloy> Sgeo: sorta
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <gtrak> Sgeo: it's very easy to do
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <gtrak> ,(#(.toString "hello"))
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <amalloy> what function does ".foo" represent? (fn [x] (.foo x))? or (fn [x y] (.foo x y))? or...
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19:50:00 <Sgeo> Severe netsplit now occuring
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19:50:27 <shachaf> fizzie: Or just var log = function() { return console.log.apply(console, arguments); };
19:51:42 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, oh also did you try clairvoyance everyone?
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <amalloy> hiredman: at some point we talked for a few minutes about how you could automatically turn Foo/bar into a function, if it's used in a context where it can't be anything else. i couldn't remember if you'd actually done it
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <hiredman> definitely not
19:51:58 <Sgeo> * johnmn3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <hiredman> definitely doable
19:52:20 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Not everyone but lots of people/things.
19:52:29 <shachaf> Do you mean in general or inside the milkworld?
19:55:37 <Phantom__Hoover> In general.
19:55:42 <Phantom__Hoover> It works on like everyone.
19:56:14 <Sgeo> ....WTF
19:56:22 <Sgeo> WTF did I just listen to?
19:56:45 <Sgeo> http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/sbtechno4.mp3
19:56:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: You just listened to:
19:57:04 <shachaf> http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/sbtechno4.mp3
19:57:13 <shachaf> "Hope That HTHs"
19:57:20 <quintopia> it's a light switch rave!
19:57:28 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Isn't Dr. Loboto great?
19:57:36 <shachaf> I wish he was *my* doctor.
19:57:58 <shachaf> (I was surprised to discover that Dr. Loboto was referred to as "he".)
19:58:10 <quintopia> Sgeo: do you not like strongbad?
19:58:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Everyone in Psychonauts has a screechy voice.
19:58:17 <Phantom__Hoover> It's because they're psychic.
19:58:20 <quintopia> yes
19:58:27 <quintopia> and because they are "characters"
19:58:35 <quintopia> except for the milo spy german dude
19:58:38 <quintopia> i like his voice
19:58:45 <shachaf> I don't think Dr. Loboto is psychic?
19:59:20 <Sgeo> quintopia, I needed to adjust my volume, at the volume it was at, it was screechy
19:59:31 <Taneb> Does anyone know how Haddock plays with fixity declarations for class methods?
20:00:06 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: What rank are you at?
20:00:23 <shachaf> I have it "on goode authority" that you want to get to at least 90 before The Big Fight.
20:00:53 <quintopia> Phantom__Hoover: belay that authority. i had no trouble beating the game with ~60/65 exp
20:01:20 <quintopia> you don't need regeneration or whatever. i never got it.
20:01:36 <quintopia> you do need to sleep before you fight the butcher the first time
20:01:37 <shachaf> quintopia is probably right.
20:01:43 <quintopia> and run the meat circus
20:01:46 <shachaf> Sleep?
20:01:53 <quintopia> shachaf: like, in real life
20:02:08 <quintopia> he's impossible to beat if you've been playing for 8 hours and been up for 18
20:02:08 <shachaf> ...Oh.
20:02:13 <quintopia> but easy if you just got up
20:02:19 <shachaf> quintopia: Apparently:
20:02:34 <shachaf> "PS One of the self-funded improvements we made to the game was fixing some bugs that made Meat Circus harder than it was meant to be. So please give the new build a try! :)"
20:02:45 <quintopia> wat
20:02:47 <quintopia> lame
20:02:53 <quintopia> :P
20:04:44 <Phantom__Hoover> <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: What rank are you at?
20:04:46 <Phantom__Hoover> 34.
20:07:05 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not completely sure the designers accounted for how floaty the levitation jump is.
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20:07:54 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: One of the least pleasant parts of the game was the levitation-training-course. :-(
20:11:03 <Phantom__Hoover> I quite liked it.
20:11:15 <Phantom__Hoover> I didn't fall that much.
20:19:09 <quintopia> once you learn it it becomes super handy
20:27:48 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, besides the stupidity of some people in #clojure, and the excessive Java focus, are there any big problems with Clojure?
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20:38:49 <Vorpal> ah, what a beautiful sunset. I should get my camera out. Might need HDR to do it justice though.
20:44:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm I quite liked that level
20:44:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of which, I panoramizzed Norway quite a bit, I don't think I mentioned. Though I don't have a selection handy.
20:45:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I found that my camera battery was not charged, so no photography for me atm
20:45:26 <Vorpal> (and it isn't just an AA, it is a custom form factor)
20:45:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, nothing uploaded?
20:46:00 <Vorpal> I would love to see some panoramas
20:46:01 <fizzie> Oh, there's quite a pile, I just don't have a good selection.
20:46:05 <Vorpal> oh okay
20:46:08 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/20550-1/d07-133622-133717.jpg is I think kinda fancy, even though the waves are all messed up for the obvious reason, and I left the tripod in the car so the horizon is kinda snakey.
20:46:14 <fizzie> But it's got that snow+sand thing going on.
20:46:21 <fizzie> Well, snow+sand+sea thing.
20:46:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, hugin can straighten horizons quite well
20:46:59 <Vorpal> and yeah it is cool
20:47:08 <Vorpal> when was this?
20:47:33 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the horizon is straight, I meant the black border thing, since I didn't want to clip out too much.
20:47:48 <Vorpal> ah right, take two passes, one high and the other low
20:47:48 <fizzie> Around Easter, this particular one was April 7th.
20:47:51 <Vorpal> that tends to work
20:48:22 <Vorpal> also, maybe less zoomed in would have helped with the waves, reducing the number of cuts at least
20:48:41 <Vorpal> what sort of camera did you use?
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20:50:06 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> quintopia, I needed to adjust my volume, at the volume it was at, it was screechy <-- I did have to play around with the levels, but mostly the issue I had was that the music was way too loud compared to the voice
20:50:07 <ion> One of the least pleasant parts of the game was the meat circus, but since then Tim Schafer has said “One of the self-funded improvements we made to the game was fixing some bugs that made Meat Circus harder than it was meant to be. So please give the new build a try! :)”
20:50:22 <Phantom__Hoover> OK this game is getting obnoxiously hard.
20:50:28 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should tell elliott that Psychonauts is good!
20:50:36 <shachaf> Vorpal: Also encourage Phantom__Hoover.
20:50:42 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Which part is obnoxiously hard?
20:50:43 <Vorpal> ion, I haven't got to meat circus yet, though I think I'm just before it.
20:50:57 <fizzie> The only sort I have, it's this "compact-zoom" thing. Some of them do have two passes for higher vertical FOV. I'll try to find some others.
20:51:07 <Vorpal> ion, is it just after the boss battle against the tank (not the tank in the mind that is, the other tank)?
20:51:24 <ion> Hmm, i don’t remember exactly.
20:51:29 <shachaf> Vorpal: Yes, pretty much.
20:51:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, not a DSLR?
20:51:41 <shachaf> There might be a short thing beforehand but it's the next major level.
20:51:42 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, I'm at Gloria's Theatre, but I'm hemorrhaging health.
20:51:47 <Vorpal> shachaf, yeah then I last saved just before that boss battle
20:51:58 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Because of those undestructible creatures that breathe fire at you?
20:52:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, since I'm a completionist I'm unlikely to continue playing for a while :P
20:52:26 <Vorpal> well, the story that is
20:52:37 <Vorpal> I will try to pick up everything that I missed, cobwebs and so on
20:52:38 <shachaf> Completionist?
20:52:40 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
20:52:51 <shachaf> The point where you can't get back to the real world.
20:52:55 <Phantom__Hoover> <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Because of those undestructible creatures that breathe fire at you?
20:52:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Just everything.
20:53:05 <shachaf> Vorpal: Note that you *can* get back to other minds past that point.
20:53:07 <shachaf> Just not the real world.
20:53:14 <Phantom__Hoover> The censors at the top of stairs on narrow, short catwalks aren't helping either,.
20:53:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, exactly, since it said "autosaving: point of no return" I went like "Okaaaaay..."
20:53:36 <shachaf> So go finish the scavenger hunt and find all the cards and such.
20:53:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, I would need to go buy cores and so on
20:53:44 <shachaf> But you don't need to worry about cobwebs, I don't think.
20:53:50 <Vorpal> oh?
20:53:59 <Vorpal> how would you cash them in for levels then?
20:54:03 <shachaf> Vorpal: If I remember correctly you don't need to buy cores anymore past that point.
20:54:10 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, just psi blast them?
20:54:21 <Vorpal> oh
20:54:23 <Vorpal> interesting
20:54:27 <Phantom__Hoover> The operative words here are 'narrow' and 'short'.
20:54:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: No. It's the sort of midway-but-not-quite. Built-in zoom lens that goes up to... "12x" or some-such, 432mm in 35mm-equiv terms. But the sensor is still tiny, so it's very noisy especially at ISO > 100.
20:54:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
20:54:44 <Phantom__Hoover> I can't blast them because they just close and corner me.
20:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, similar to my camera then, except mine is only really noisy above ISO 200
20:55:19 <Vorpal> and it is 10 years old or so by now
20:55:25 <shachaf> Vorpal: Oh, and the brains.
20:55:29 <shachaf> Find all the brains, maybe
20:55:35 <Vorpal> shachaf, right, I'm missing one brain still
20:55:44 <shachaf> Fun.
20:55:45 <Vorpal> that blue guy who blasted squirrels
20:55:50 <Vorpal> no clue where his brain is
20:55:53 <shachaf> Dogen?
20:56:14 <Vorpal> shachaf, err probably, I suck at remembering names (even in real life)
20:56:43 <shachaf> The first one who loses his brain?
20:56:57 <Vorpal> yeah
20:56:57 <ion> David Rees and Blackwing Pencils: Artisanal Pencil Sharpening http://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8
20:57:01 <Vorpal> shachaf, that guy
20:57:20 <shachaf> I think that one was tricky.
20:57:30 <Vorpal> shachaf, he blasted some squirrels if you talked to him at one point earlier.
20:57:36 <shachaf> Yep.
20:58:01 <Vorpal> anyway where was that brain
20:58:22 <shachaf> In the place with the rats.
20:58:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hmm, here's another. It's taken by walking around this thing http://zem.fi/g2/d/20784-2/d08-074718-p1120942.jpg so there's a bit of parallax-caused "chain cuts off in air" sort of stuff, but not too much: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20789-1/d08-074812-074922.jpg
20:58:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so a huge section of the tower then?
20:58:53 <Vorpal> not a lot of help that
20:59:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should have climbed onto the top of it
20:59:30 <Vorpal> ;P
20:59:53 <fizzie> I think there was a locked hatch. (Or maybe I just didn't feel like it.)
20:59:58 <shachaf> Vorpal: I don't remember exactly.
21:00:16 <shachaf> I assume I can look it up as well as you can...
21:00:20 <ion> fizzie: Pretty. Hugin? I’d suggest straightening the horizont.
21:00:28 <ion> It’s quite easy with Hugin.
21:00:30 <Vorpal> hm wasn't the latest photoshop version supposed to have some sort of fancy thing that filled in missing stuff based on surrounding image areas, and that even worked quite well
21:00:36 <Vorpal> seem to remember hearing about that
21:00:53 <Vorpal> might be useful with panoramas
21:01:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: It has that thing, yes. And Gimp has that "Resynthesizer" plugin, which... works less well.
21:01:42 <fizzie> (But it does work not too shabbily sometimes.)
21:01:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, well I could just google it and find some walkthrough, but using a walkthrough just feels like failing the game to me
21:01:51 <Vorpal> heh
21:02:14 <fizzie> ion: It's gone through one iteration of the "Straighten" button already. I had too many of these to join to actually really look at the output, and people wanted to see the photos already.
21:02:24 <shachaf> Vorpal: What's the difference between that and asking on IRC?
21:02:33 <shachaf> Vorpal: Being a completionistperson seems like pain enough to me, anyway.
21:02:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, at least I don't risk seeing anything else that would be a spoiler by asking on IRC :P
21:02:52 <ion> I’m not sure the straighten button actually straightens the horizon. You need to add some control points for that.
21:03:00 <shachaf> Vorpal: Ah, I see. You want me to look it up and paste it in here?
21:03:00 <Vorpal> photoshop is so confusing nowdays, they have all sorts of different editions it seems...
21:03:03 <ion> And then just optimize as usual.
21:03:08 <Vorpal> shachaf, that would be very kind
21:03:35 <shachaf> "Dogen's Brain: In the large tower, from the left end of the lowest wooden walkway around the rim, jump and float along the wall to a small crumbled ledge below. Step out one of the windows here to find the far on an outdoor landing."
21:04:03 <Vorpal> I did manage to clear all the cobwebs in several minds btw already. Need to go back to some of the early ones to clean them up. And then there are all those figments of imagination around. That is going to take ages to clean up
21:04:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's one straight off the road: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20130-1/d06-122503-122700.jpg
21:04:26 <Vorpal> and then it isn't even useful to look up guides, because who knows which one I missed
21:04:46 <Vorpal> shachaf, thanks
21:04:48 <fizzie> (The weather was quite... variable.)
21:05:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Looks the same across that pano at least?
21:05:36 <shachaf> Vorpal: You know that the only benefit to going from level 95 to level 100 is that it shows you a little movie?
21:05:36 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, just in general, across the trip.
21:05:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, ouch
21:05:52 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway I'm on like 89 atm
21:05:53 <fizzie> Got stuck in snow once and all.
21:05:59 <shachaf> Vorpal: At level 90 you get regeneration.
21:06:07 <shachaf> At 95 you get unlimited ammo.
21:06:16 <Vorpal> shachaf, wait, was it 89? Hm, what was it that you got at 85?
21:06:33 <fizzie> Quite a few of these are hotel room photos, it's too useful in tight corners to be able to fake a wide-angle objective.
21:06:34 <shachaf> Double confusion?
21:06:37 <Vorpal> wrecking ball is the last one I remember getting, though I was rather sleepy when I stopped playing
21:06:47 <Vorpal> (yesterday night)
21:07:15 <Vorpal> shachaf, btw, what is the video about?
21:07:21 <Vorpal> (is it worth watching?)
21:07:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't your camera do wide angle? Mine goes down to 28mm (35 mm equiv)
21:08:13 <Vorpal> which is reasonably wide angle
21:08:30 <Vorpal> I think it is 28-370 or something like that.
21:09:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it stops at the "standard-ish" 36mm. The next model did 28-<something>, it became a popular thing to do around that time. Oh well.
21:09:51 <fizzie> (I mean, more popular; certainly cameras that did 28mm already existed at that time; I think it's from 2007 or so.)
21:10:20 <Vorpal> hm
21:10:38 <Vorpal> well, my camera is from 2002 or 2003 or so
21:10:53 <Vorpal> so yeah they existed :P
21:12:15 <Vorpal> (and it has really amazing macro, I can get like 5-10 cm away from the subject, depending on the zoom level)
21:13:11 <fizzie> Here's another full-circle one from a road rest stop: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20413-1/d07-102527-102558.jpg -- it's right next to this fancy bridge http://zem.fi/g2/d/20432-2/d07-102747-p1120558.jpg -- that's behind the snow-heap there.
21:13:22 <fizzie> (You can just see the top of the bridge.)
21:14:05 <Vorpal> nice bridge
21:14:21 <fizzie> Oh, I've managed to have a seam right in our car. :/ (Well, it *is* quite close.)
21:14:32 <Vorpal> btw, did firefox change something or why is the background for the image page not white?
21:14:37 <Vorpal> or is it actually a html page?
21:14:45 <fizzie> It might be a HTML page, actually.
21:14:46 <Vorpal> and where is the view source alternative then
21:14:56 <fizzie> It's one of those Gallery2 URLs, it might be doing weird stuffs.
21:14:56 <Vorpal> hm it is grayed out
21:15:05 <Vorpal> view source is grayed out though
21:15:18 <fizzie> It's white for me. Dunno.
21:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, also wtf is up with the redirect: http://β.zem.fi/g2/d/20432-2/d07-102747-p1120558.jpg
21:15:31 <Vorpal> fancy DNS
21:15:35 <Vorpal> (why?)
21:15:44 <fizzie> I'm sort of regretting the β, honestly.
21:15:51 <Vorpal> oh?
21:16:00 <fizzie> It's nice when it works, but xn--nxa.zem.fi is less optimal.
21:16:04 <Vorpal> heh
21:16:09 <fizzie> Some browsers are very asinine about when they show IDNs and when not.
21:16:16 <Vorpal> oh?
21:16:20 <Vorpal> which ones?
21:16:21 <fizzie> I had to add Greek to my list of languages in order for Chrome to show that letter.
21:16:27 <Vorpal> hah
21:16:42 <Vorpal> let me open chromium and check
21:16:43 <fizzie> (Whereas Firefox just has a TLD whitelist of domains where there's an official protocol for avoiding confusing names.)
21:16:54 <Vorpal> yeah it doesn't do it
21:17:09 <Vorpal> firefox seems a lot more sensible there
21:17:29 <fizzie> It's not terribly sensible to apply TLD-specific rules when it comes to non-second-level domain name components, though.
21:17:36 <Vorpal> well yeah
21:18:02 <shachaf> Vorpal: You can watch the bonus video online if you want to.
21:18:13 <shachaf> I doubt it's worth the agony.
21:18:19 <shachaf> Therefore you don't need to complete past level 95.
21:18:34 <fizzie> Anyway, it's redirected because "zem.fi" is on the VPS nowadays, but there's just 6G of disk there total, and the Gallery2 data directory is already 19G, so I host it locally.
21:20:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm still, gah
21:21:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, the pricing plans for VPS disk space tend to be absolutely terrible in my experience
21:21:37 <Vorpal> same for RAM really
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21:22:34 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm I wonder what is the lowest level you could complete the game on, certainly you do need some of the skills you get from leveling
21:22:40 <Vorpal> like invisibility iirc
21:23:31 <shachaf> Ah, the reverse-completionist.
21:24:44 <Vorpal> that is quite interesting as well
21:24:50 <fizzie> I seem to remember a Chrono Trigger low-level-run with Crono at level 1.
21:24:57 <Vorpal> shachaf, it would certainly be much harder to do
21:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the other characters?
21:25:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: More, sadly. Some of them join at quite high levels. I'll see if I can figure out how to Google for it.
21:26:03 <Vorpal> anyway just getting chrono at level 1 is quite an achievement. I can't actually see how it would be possible
21:26:14 <Vorpal> s/getting/keeping/
21:26:19 <fizzie> You don't get exp when knocked-out, so Crono spends quite a lot of time unconscious.
21:26:42 <shachaf> What about keeping a Chrono Legionnaire unpromoted?
21:26:45 <shachaf> Should be pretty easy.
21:26:57 <fizzie> The initial on-party-join levels are apparently 1, 1, 2, 5, 10, 18 and 37 for Crono, Marle, Lucca, Frog, Robo, Ayla and Magus, respectively.
21:27:01 <Vorpal> shachaf, what game is that?
21:27:08 <shachaf> Red Alert 2.
21:27:13 <Vorpal> I see
21:27:14 <shachaf> "goode game"
21:27:32 <Vorpal> I have no clue what sort of game red alert is
21:28:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm kock out happens at 0 HP right?
21:28:10 <fizzie> Yes.
21:28:23 <ion> Please put it back in.
21:28:30 <Vorpal> amusing that chrono actually dies as well. Ah the power of the cut scenes.
21:28:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: "Real-time strategy"
21:28:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, final levels in this run-through were Crono at level 1, Marle at level 4, Lucca at 15, Frog at 15, Robo at 16, Ayla at 20 and Magus at 37. (There's the item called "Wallet" which turns gained exp into gold, but you can only get that in the Zeal era, i.e. quite late in the game.)
21:28:54 <Vorpal> shachaf, right
21:29:12 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should acquire a copy!
21:29:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
21:29:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, not really into RTS
21:29:47 <Vorpal> apart from possibly dwarf fortress, and that isn't strictly an RTS, it is a lot more than that.
21:30:31 <fizzie> (The full description of the run is in GameFAQs, Chrono Trigger (SNES), "Low-Level FAQ/Walkthrough", but it's some >4000 lines of text...)
21:30:38 <Vorpal> heh
21:31:26 <shachaf> RA2 is, like, a special case, man.
21:32:06 <Vorpal> mhm
21:34:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently during the game Crono gains a total of 9+6=15 exp, from a total of two fights. (Level 2 comes at 20 exp.) Rest of the time you just let him die before the end of every fight.
21:34:39 <Vorpal> heh
21:34:55 <fizzie> Must not be a very pleasant run-though from the point of view of the characters.
21:35:29 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:36:09 <Vorpal> heh
21:36:23 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:36:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess after you gain robo you can just move him out of your party
21:37:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:37:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think they mostly keep the currently highest-leveled character as the single conscious-at-end-of-battle character, since the gaps between gaining levels are largest for him/her/it.
21:37:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, and I think there's a level-1 run of Final Fantasy IX too. It ends up finishing the final boss with a party of four level-1 characters.
21:38:42 <coppro> shachaf: chrono legionnaires were the best
21:38:48 <coppro> you could totally bust the allied campaign up with them
21:38:56 <coppro> if you used the waypoint trick
21:39:01 <shachaf> coppro: Waypoint trick?
21:39:16 <coppro> shachaf: A legionnaire doesn't time out if it moves a short distance
21:39:27 <coppro> so you set up a bunch of waypoints to move it across the map very quickly in short hops
21:39:30 <shachaf> Oh.
21:39:34 <shachaf> Weird.
21:39:36 <Vorpal> back
21:39:43 <shachaf> Anyway, RA2 is the future, man.
21:39:50 <coppro> just get enough of them into a weakly-defended location in order to freeze all the defenses
21:39:56 <coppro> really really powerful on, say, the kremlin level
21:40:20 <coppro> the AI is braindead so it doesn't go "oh hey things behind my lines I should stop them"
21:40:25 <coppro> it assumes that the defenses present will be enough
21:40:31 <coppro> which they aren't, because you're vaporizing them
21:40:46 <Vorpal> sounds like a terrible game
21:40:50 <Vorpal> if the AI is that bad
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21:41:12 <coppro> Vorpal: in campaign mode the AI mostly executes a series of preplanned things
21:41:20 <coppro> like "build up X force then attack with it"
21:41:26 <Sgeo> It looks different
21:41:32 <coppro> it's fairly old so AI still rather sucked back then
21:41:40 <coppro> oh, and the harder AI just cheats.
21:42:09 <coppro> like building multiple buildings simultaneously, which a player can never do
21:42:14 <coppro> shachaf: ever played RA3?
21:42:17 <coppro> it's pretty good
21:42:19 <Vorpal> terrible
21:42:21 <shachaf> coppro: Yep!
21:42:24 <coppro> although it leans too far to micromanagement I think
21:42:28 <shachaf> Yes. :-(
21:42:28 <coppro> (with special abilities)
21:42:34 <shachaf> RTSes all do that.
21:42:36 <shachaf> I don't get it.
21:42:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, there are some that lean the other way
21:42:59 <Vorpal> they tend to feel dumbed down though
21:43:13 <shachaf> Scriptability would seem to be the obvious way to fix that.
21:43:16 <coppro> RA3 was particularly bad
21:43:29 <coppro> since a force that you were watching carefully could do notably better
21:43:30 <Vorpal> shachaf, like the macros in df?
21:43:40 <coppro> since you could tell it to use special weapons at appropriate times
21:43:47 <coppro> for some units this makes a huge difference
21:43:54 <shachaf> Vorpal: I don't know anything about df.
21:43:56 <shachaf> df -h
21:44:00 <coppro> ever played Majesty?
21:44:00 <Vorpal> shachaf, dwarf fortress
21:44:04 <shachaf> Yes, I know.
21:44:06 <Vorpal> shachaf, you should play it
21:44:08 <Vorpal> it is cool
21:44:15 <coppro> That was a great (if occasionally frustrating) RTS that didnt' have you micromanage
21:44:16 <shachaf> coppro: Nope.
21:44:24 <coppro> since you were just the king, you couldn't order your units around
21:44:32 <coppro> if you wanted them to kill stuff, you had to put a bounty on it
21:44:36 <Vorpal> heh
21:44:44 <shachaf> coppro: Do you still have RA3 set up?
21:44:48 <coppro> shachaf: No.
21:44:54 <coppro> I don't have a computer capable of playing it atm
21:45:05 <Vorpal> how old is that game?
21:45:12 <Vorpal> RA3 that is
21:45:12 <shachaf> RA2 is from ~2000
21:45:18 <coppro> Vorpal: 3-4 years I think?
21:45:18 <shachaf> RA3 is from -- ~2007?
21:45:27 <shachaf> 2008
21:45:27 <Vorpal> well, anything modern should be able to play RA2 then :P
21:45:36 <Vorpal> RA3 might be a different matter
21:45:36 <coppro> oh, I can definitely play RA2 on Wine
21:45:38 <coppro> works fine
21:45:39 <shachaf> RA2 has this annoying DRM.
21:45:42 <coppro> yeah
21:45:45 <shachaf> "i h8 ur drm ra2"
21:45:49 <shachaf> "as they say"
21:46:10 <shachaf> How does it work on WINE?
21:46:13 <Vorpal> the only good DRM ever was the monkey island DRM, it was amusing
21:46:31 <Vorpal> (the dial a pirate stuff)
21:47:41 <shachaf> coppro: Do you know why RA3 runs so well under WINE?
21:48:40 <shachaf> Answer: Because EA explicitly made it run well under wine in order to "port" to OS X: http://transgaming.com/cider/games?page=2
21:50:06 <Vorpal> btw I downloaded bastion for linux from the humble bundle (I owned it on steam already). It was news to me that XNA games worked under mono, but it came with mono included so...
21:50:27 <Vorpal> couldn't get it to work on the laptop I had at hand at that point though, intel graphics
21:53:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway the last humble bundle is amazing
21:53:36 <Vorpal> best one ever I think.
21:53:55 <shachaf> They should make one bundle that has all the good games.
21:54:00 <ais523> <fuzzyfuzzyfungus> Y'know what fools the black-hats every time? Store the passwords in plaintext; but require all users to create a password consisting of exactly 64 hexadecimal characters...
21:54:00 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:54:03 <ais523> @messages
21:54:03 <lambdabot> elliott asked 5h 44m 50s ago: Did you fix that NetHack 4 message fix yet? :(
21:54:21 <fizzie> 3184900.62 dollars cannot be wrong.
21:54:29 <ais523> @tell elliott during the tournament, I'm avoiding all but critical fixes
21:54:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:54:45 <fizzie> It is kinda-sorta sad, though, that there's a brony on top of the contributor list.
21:56:29 <Vorpal> shachaf, so... Trine, Psychonauts, Bastion, Avadon: The Black Fortress (I love Spiderweb Software!), Braid, Botanicula, Darwinia, VVVVVV?
21:56:46 <Vorpal> possibly limbo and amnesia too, though I'm not a fan of horror games
21:57:28 <fizzie> World of Goo is not a bad waste of time either.
21:57:56 <Vorpal> well, not if you run out of other things no
21:58:35 <Vorpal> anyway it annoys me when I own some of the games previously, like Avadon or Bastion. Owned those before the respective bundles
21:59:08 <fizzie> Anyway, using the objective "total purchases" measure, this last one is indeed the most glorious bundle.
21:59:13 <Vorpal> didn't get the bundle with Avadon because of that. Got the bundle with bastion due to psychonauts
21:59:36 <fizzie> Though (at least at the moment, anyway) not if using the "average price" measure.
22:00:28 <Vorpal> that tends to raise slowly, it still got several days to go
22:00:57 <fizzie> It needs to go up to $9.18 to match the first bundle, it might well not get that far.
22:01:14 <Vorpal> yeah probably not that much
22:01:44 <fizzie> It was around $6.68 or so when I bought, about one day in.
22:02:05 <fizzie> I'm sure someone has a graph somewhere. :p
22:02:34 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:03:11 <fizzie> I don't know why, but if I hover my mouse over the pie graph of Windows/Mac/Linux, it turns grayscale.
22:03:38 <Vorpal> huh, *tries*
22:03:56 <Vorpal> yeah true
22:04:22 <Vorpal> very weird
22:08:26 <coppro> shachaf: for RA2, you need to get nocd patches and pray hard
22:08:30 <coppro> shachaf: for RA3, dunno
22:08:39 <coppro> never tried since my computer can't run in anyway
22:09:20 <shachaf> coppro: Are these "nocd patches" official?
22:09:27 <coppro> no
22:09:36 <fizzie> All hail the Sun God, he sure is a fun god, RA RA2 RA3.
22:09:44 <coppro> but you also need them for the other option, which is a VM
22:09:52 <coppro> please detach the debugger FUCK YOU
22:10:19 <shachaf> coppro: In a VM you can use a CD image.
22:10:24 <shachaf> (Of the right kind.)
22:10:28 <coppro> shachaf: no, you can't
22:10:35 <coppro> shachaf: RA2 mistakes the VM for a debugger
22:10:40 <shachaf> Not .iso, but some other kind.
22:10:42 <shachaf> ...Oh.
22:10:57 <coppro> DRM again
22:11:08 <shachaf> Yay, DRM.
22:14:00 <coppro> it may not exist with hardware virtualization
22:14:06 <coppro> but it does exist with software
22:14:56 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined.
22:15:08 <ion> vorpal: Yeah, they apparently used http://monogame.codeplex.com/ with good success.
22:17:24 <Vorpal> hm
22:17:54 <Vorpal> ion, should try magicka with that, though that might be steamworks as well, not sure
22:19:39 <fizzie> I think you're supposed to have the sources of the game in question, at least in the usual way of using that thing.
22:19:55 <ion> Yeah, probably.
22:21:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
22:21:54 <Vorpal> so not ABI compatible?
22:23:28 <fizzie> I don't *know* anything. At least it might involve fiddling.
22:23:51 <nortti> @ping
22:23:51 <lambdabot> pong
22:24:05 <nortti> wow. I have lag of 30.08
22:24:17 <fizzie> Is that really something to be proud of?
22:25:22 <nortti> good. now it is gone
22:25:25 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:25:38 <fizzie> Hey, it's that IPv6 launch day today. (Well, yesterday already, as seen from here.)
22:26:31 <nortti> #echo ^echo foo
22:26:31 <oonbotti> ^echo foo
22:27:47 <quintopia> bwahaha
22:28:03 <nortti> ?
22:28:24 <quintopia> #echo `run echo "foo"
22:28:24 <oonbotti> `run echo "foo"
22:28:29 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
22:28:33 <HackEgo> foo
22:28:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, IPv6 launch day?
22:28:40 <Vorpal> what?
22:28:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:28:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.worldipv6launch.org/
22:28:55 <Vorpal> IPv6 has been around for ages, but no one uses it
22:29:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Facebook, Google, Youtube and Yahoo now do.
22:29:21 <Vorpal> oh right
22:29:29 <Vorpal> there has been ipv6.google.com for ages
22:29:36 <fizzie> Yes, but "google.com" is now v6.
22:29:53 <Vorpal> great, now my tunnel is counterproductive -_-
22:29:54 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric foo
22:30:08 <Vorpal> my ADSL modem doesn't even support ipv6
22:30:13 <Vorpal> nor does my ISP afaik
22:30:28 <fizzie> As is "youtube.com" and "facebook.com" and "yahoo.com". And then some lesser fish (microsoft.com, aol.com, netflix.com, mozilla.org) but those four are the top four Alexa-ranked pages of the entire interwebs.
22:30:53 <Vorpal> so I should now stop my ipv6 tunnel if I ever want to watch a youtube video
22:30:54 <Vorpal> great
22:31:15 <Vorpal> (the bandwidth is not as good as native, obviously)
22:31:20 <fizzie> A couple of network operators (Verizon Wireless, Comcast) also default-enabled v6, for some definition of the term.
22:31:28 <Vorpal> (and I can /just/ about manage 1080p on my native connection)
22:32:24 <fizzie> Funet, the Finnish university network, is on the list. Maybe it means they'll finally get some native v6 at the university. Probably not, though. (The student housing network has been v6-enabled for ages, as I recall.)
22:32:57 <fizzie> Possibly it just means that Funet is willing if the client is interested, which has also been the case long now.
22:33:08 <Vorpal> heh
22:33:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is the list?
22:33:26 <Vorpal> is tele2 there?
22:33:43 <fizzie> http://www.worldipv6launch.org/participants/?q=2 -- not too many names.
22:34:05 <fizzie> Funet seems to be the only thing from Finland.
22:34:32 <Vorpal> hm
22:34:37 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu.
22:34:45 <shachaf> "slbkbs.org: now brought to you with the power of ipv6"
22:35:19 <fizzie> It's probably mostly a matter of finding someone in the organization willing to put a name there. Certainly SUNET gives out IPv6 addresses too.
22:35:22 <Vorpal> slbkbs.org?
22:35:24 <fizzie> http://stats.sunet.se/ipv6/
22:36:39 <fizzie> I see facebook has decided to be "clever" with their addresses.
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:10:8f01:face:b00c:0:25
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:2110:3f01:face:b00c::
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:10:1f02:face:b00c:0:25
22:36:49 <fizzie> face:b00c, yes yes, very "heh".
22:37:04 <Vorpal> indeed
22:37:27 <shachaf> Vorpal: My domain name!
22:37:32 <Vorpal> oh
22:38:03 <shachaf> "doing my part"
22:38:23 <fizzie> zem.fi should also be accessible for v6-only hosts nowadays, I think I finally got some IPv6 glue in the .fi registry when they upgraded their infrastructure earlier this year.
22:39:01 <fizzie> Yes, "dig @a.fi zem.fi" gives out one v6 address too. "Yay."
22:39:37 <olsner> I think I have no ipv6 connectivity at all
22:40:08 <olsner> ... except at work
22:41:05 <fizzie> aalto.fi, our university, at least has IPv6able DNS by virtue of having ns-secondary.funet.fi as a secondary DNS server. That's all, though.
22:45:20 <fizzie> http://www.ams-ix.net/sflow-stats/ipv6/ -- well, that's somewhat of a bump there for today.
22:45:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it needs ipv6 glue? Only for the DNS surely?
22:46:16 <fizzie> Yes, but I didn't have that earlier. The .fi roots have been v6-enabled again for ages, but IIRC the domain administration webterface didn't let you stick in glue, and my DNS server used to have an in-zem.fi name.
22:46:29 <Vorpal> ah
22:47:36 <fizzie> Which is of course important for that huge number of v6-only hosts that don't have any IPv4 connectivity at all.
22:49:24 <fizzie> Oh, and the rather large subset of that who frequent zem.fi.
22:49:32 <fizzie> I think in integer terms that rounds up to... 0 hosts.
22:54:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:54:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
22:54:37 <fizzie> That was fast.
22:56:52 <ais523> fizzie: a.fi is one of the .fi root servers?
22:57:42 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, they're named a.fi, b.fi, ... up to some letter. Us Finns are not known for creativity, after all.
22:58:05 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember what the root servers are called
22:58:11 <ais523> I know they're single letters too, but forget the domain
22:58:27 <fizzie> They go up to i, apparently.
22:58:46 <fizzie> Those are X.root-servers.net.
22:59:15 <fizzie> And X.gtld-servers.net handle .com and some others.
22:59:17 <Vorpal> iirc they are usually written in upper case
22:59:23 <Vorpal> in the DNS that is
22:59:34 <fizzie> Yes, that too. The .fi roots aren't.
22:59:40 <Vorpal> right
22:59:50 <Vorpal> $ host
22:59:50 <Vorpal> domain name pointer k.root-servers.net.
22:59:51 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
22:59:57 <Vorpal> hm maybe it normalizes the casing?
23:00:04 <Vorpal> wtf is that bot?
23:00:06 <Vorpal> $ help
23:00:06 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
23:00:11 <fizzie> $ words
23:00:12 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:00:18 <fizzie> It's a Forthy thing.
23:00:20 <Vorpal> oh, Forth
23:00:21 <Vorpal> right
23:00:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, ANS Forth?
23:00:32 <Vorpal> hm probably not
23:00:39 <Vorpal> at least not if that is the complete word list
23:00:40 <fizzie> I don't think so. (It's not mine.)
23:00:48 <ais523> what's the minimum Forth subset needed to implement the rest, without involving asm anywhere?
23:00:52 <ais523> I guess there are multiple such subsets
23:01:05 <Vorpal> well obviously.
23:01:28 <fizzie> ais523: There was a comp.forth (IIRC) thread about that recently. Some of the constructions were rather bizarre, especially after expanding.
23:01:51 <fizzie> s/comp/comp.lang/.
23:01:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you mean bizarre?
23:02:06 <Vorpal> as in word like : are just weird?
23:02:09 <Vorpal> words*
23:02:21 <Vorpal> actually, : is not a proper word is it? I don't remember
23:02:34 <Vorpal> I do remember the definition of ; is weird
23:03:22 <nortti> Vorpal: not even close. oonbotto doesn't even have conditional execution or loops
23:03:42 <Vorpal> ouch
23:04:06 <Vorpal> nortti, it is your bot?
23:04:08 <nortti> ais523: I could get it to : ; r> >r r@ if then begin while repeat -
23:04:11 <nortti> Vorpal: yes
23:04:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:04:16 <Vorpal> nortti, why so few words?
23:04:30 <ais523> begin but not end? neat
23:04:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just that if you build the "primitive" stack manipulations out of >R and R>, and then the "bit less primitive" ones (nip, etc.) out of those, the more complicated ones, expanded out, will look rather horrible.
23:05:17 <Vorpal> well yeah
23:05:20 <nortti> Vorpal: I haven't really worked with that forth interpreter that much. I will make if and while available
23:05:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one is "nip" now again?
23:05:45 <nortti> fizzie: well oonbotti actually implements stack manipulation with them
23:05:49 <Vorpal> nortti, you want DOES> too
23:05:52 <fizzie> I could find references to a 9-word set in comp.lang.forth.
23:05:58 <nortti> Vorpal: why?
23:06:22 <Vorpal> nortti, how else can you implement separate run time and compile time semantics?
23:06:27 <nortti> $ forget drop
23:06:30 <Vorpal> properly I mean
23:06:31 <nortti> $ forget swap
23:06:34 <nortti> $ forget dup
23:06:37 <nortti> $ forget nip
23:06:45 <nortti> $ forget +
23:06:50 <Vorpal> ouch
23:06:51 <nortti> $ words
23:06:51 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:06:59 <Vorpal> nortti, hm what is the definition of of FORGET now again?
23:07:08 * Vorpal considers running $ forget :
23:07:13 <Vorpal> (that would be evil)
23:07:37 <nortti> Vorpal: run it if you want. I have commad to restore the entire environment
23:07:42 <Vorpal> right
23:07:47 <nortti> $ : dup >r r@ r> ;
23:07:57 <nortti> $ : drop dup - - ;
23:08:06 <Vorpal> nortti, that is a terrible definition of dup :(
23:08:13 <Vorpal> and of drop too
23:08:19 <nortti> $ : + >r 0 r> - - ;
23:08:23 <nortti> Vorpal: why?
23:08:29 <Vorpal> inefficient
23:08:34 <Vorpal> those should be implemented in asm
23:08:35 <Vorpal> :P
23:09:23 <nortti> Vorpal: I wanted to create small subset I could expand in forth. those are actually the original implementations
23:09:39 <nortti> +of oonbottis forth interpreter
23:09:56 <nortti> $ : swap over >r >r drop r> r> ;
23:10:20 <nortti> $ : nip swap drop ;
23:10:23 <nortti> $ words
23:10:24 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:10:36 <nortti> $ forget MOD
23:10:37 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'MOD' cannot be forgotten
23:10:54 <nortti> oh. I haven't rewritten that one in forth yet
23:11:14 <Vorpal> nortti, ouch
23:11:34 <Vorpal> $ FORGET FORGET
23:11:34 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
23:11:36 <Vorpal> ouch
23:11:41 <Vorpal> safety is stupid
23:11:50 <Vorpal> nortti, dammit where is @
23:11:58 <nortti> only words that are written in forth can be forgotten
23:12:08 <Vorpal> well that is annoying
23:12:20 <Vorpal> $ FORGET ;
23:12:20 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ';' cannot be forgotten
23:12:28 <nortti> $ resetenv
23:12:29 <Vorpal> well ; can be written in Forth
23:12:34 <nortti> Vorpal: how?
23:12:50 <Vorpal> nortti, it uses EXIT and some restarting of the interpreter using ] iirc?
23:13:06 <Vorpal> in ANS at least
23:13:14 <Vorpal> hey resetenv is not listed in WORDS :/
23:13:37 <nortti> Vorpal: that is because it is not part of interpreter
23:14:02 <nortti> it just throws the old interpreter instace out of window and creates new
23:14:20 <Vorpal> nortti, well yes
23:14:24 <Vorpal> obviously
23:14:44 <nortti> also:
23:14:49 <nortti> $ RESETENV
23:14:49 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
23:14:50 <fizzie> Aw, I can't find the discussion. I think it even had some esolanger suggest a shorter r> >r mess and all.
23:14:52 <Vorpal> nortti, ^
23:14:54 <Vorpal> there it is
23:15:01 <Vorpal> some trickery yes
23:15:14 <Vorpal> you are lacking the IMMEDIATE word too
23:15:21 <Vorpal> can't see how you can do that in Forth itself
23:16:04 <nortti> Vorpal: I can really see how you can create whole ans forth using those
23:16:08 <nortti> *can't
23:16:24 <Vorpal> nortti, well no, you need a few more things
23:16:27 <Vorpal> obviously
23:16:36 <Vorpal> but that bit is enough for defining ;
23:16:56 <nortti> it uses ; to declare ; :P
23:17:11 <Vorpal> nortti, how so? the [ handles that
23:17:42 <Vorpal> hm actually
23:17:45 <Vorpal> right
23:17:53 <Vorpal> nevermind then
23:19:27 <fizzie> Oh, here is a discussion; I remember reading at least this one.
23:19:35 <fizzie> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html
23:19:39 <fizzie> It has oklopol in the comments.
23:20:16 <fizzie> Anyway, there have been comp.lang.forth minimalism threads too. Nothing very conclusive.
23:20:29 -!- monqy has joined.
23:20:36 <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r>"
23:20:47 <fizzie> It's kind of a thing.
23:20:47 <nortti> fizzie: interesting how over is exactly the same as mine
23:21:42 <fizzie> The thing quoted above is I think ROT.
23:21:54 <fizzie> Or at least it's claimed to be.
23:22:21 <nortti> $ : rot >r swap r> swap ;
23:22:36 <nortti> that one is pretty elegant
23:23:30 <nortti> $ : 1+ 1 + ;
23:23:48 <nortti> $ : 0 r@ dup - ;
23:24:06 <nortti> $ 0 1+ 1+ 1+ .
23:24:06 <oonbotti> 3
23:24:08 <fizzie> The best zero.
23:24:18 <nortti> actually
23:24:27 <nortti> $ : 0 r@ r@ - ;
23:24:30 <nortti> $ 0 1+ 1+ 1+ .
23:24:30 <oonbotti> 3
23:24:45 <Vorpal> <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r>" <-- which command is that?
23:24:54 <nortti> Vorpal: swap
23:25:00 <fizzie> No, rot.
23:25:09 <Vorpal> ah
23:25:22 <nortti> $ : rot >r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r> ;
23:25:25 <Vorpal> that is a terrible implementation in practise :P
23:25:27 <fizzie> I mean, look at the >r >r >r at start, can't be swap.
23:25:36 <nortti> $ 3 2 1 rot . . .
23:25:37 <oonbotti> 3 1 2
23:25:38 <fizzie> There was a bit shorter one later on.
23:25:48 <Vorpal> that isn't rot
23:26:02 <Vorpal> or wait
23:26:03 <Vorpal> it is
23:26:05 <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - -"
23:26:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:26:11 <fizzie> Using the okoswap.
23:26:12 <Vorpal> reading the stack the wrong way
23:26:35 <Vorpal> hm I wonder...
23:26:37 <Vorpal> $ : FORGET >r ;
23:26:46 <Vorpal> I guess I can replace words?
23:26:56 <Vorpal> $ WORDS
23:27:00 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET FORGET + DROP 1+ 0 SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:27:02 <nortti> yes
23:27:16 <Vorpal> well I guess you can't get at the real FORGET without resetting the env
23:27:20 <Vorpal> :P
23:27:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:27:22 <nortti> $ forget forget
23:27:29 <nortti> $ resetenv
23:27:32 <Vorpal> yeah
23:27:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:30:00 <nortti> actually $ is just alias for #forth
23:30:03 <nortti> #help
23:30:03 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
23:30:23 <nortti> #writefile test.forth 1 2 3 . . .
23:30:35 <nortti> #loadforth test.forth
23:30:36 <oonbotti> 3 2 1
23:30:45 <nortti> #rm test.fortj
23:30:47 <nortti> #rm test.forth
23:31:59 <quintopia> #welcome nortti
23:32:00 <oonbotti> nortti: Welcome to this completely useless channel!
23:32:31 <nortti> it was designed to run on #esoteric-en
23:32:49 <pikhq_> $ forget :
23:32:50 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ':' cannot be forgotten
23:33:18 <nortti> pikhq_: only words defined on forth can be forgotten
23:33:19 <pikhq_> Lame.
23:33:40 <pikhq_> $ : : ;
23:34:01 <nortti> pikhq_: that worked
23:34:11 <nortti> $ : test 1 . ;
23:34:14 <nortti> $ test
23:34:14 <oonbotti> 1
23:34:27 <quintopia> $ forget forget ;
23:34:28 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
23:34:29 <nortti> $ forget test
23:34:32 <nortti> $ forget :
23:34:33 <nortti> $ forget :
23:34:34 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ':' cannot be forgotten
23:34:40 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:34:45 <nortti> $ words
23:34:45 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:34:52 <nortti> $ forget +
23:34:55 <nortti> $ forget drop
23:34:58 <nortti> $ forget swap
23:35:00 <nortti> $ forget dup
23:35:03 <nortti> $ forget nip
23:35:05 <nortti> $ forget over
23:35:59 <nortti> and later I will implement MOD in forth
23:40:54 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:47:32 <nortti_> $ : 2dup over over ;
23:47:44 <nortti_> $ 1 2 2dup . . . .
23:47:44 <oonbotti> ERROR:Stack underflow
23:48:15 <nortti_> $ 1 2 over . . .
23:48:16 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
23:48:25 <nortti_> $ resetenv
23:48:29 <nortti_> $ : 2dup over over ;
23:48:32 <nortti_> $ 1 2 over . . .
23:48:32 <oonbotti> 1 2 1
23:48:38 <nortti_> $ 1 2 2dup . . . .
23:48:39 <oonbotti> 2 1 2 1
23:49:05 <nortti_> $ : mod 2dup / * - ;
23:49:24 <nortti_> $ 31 2 mod .
23:49:24 <oonbotti> 1
23:49:30 <nortti_> $ 31 3 mod .
23:49:31 <oonbotti> 1
23:49:38 <nortti_> $ 7 3 mod .
23:49:39 <oonbotti> 1
23:49:45 <nortti_> $ 7 4 mod .
23:49:46 <oonbotti> 3
23:52:55 <nortti_> $ : 1+ r@ r@ / + ;
23:53:16 <nortti_> $ : 0 r@ r@ - ;
23:53:37 <nortti_> $ : 1 0 1+ ;
23:53:58 <nortti_> $ : 2 1 1+ ;
23:54:07 <nortti_> $ : 3 2 1+ ;
23:54:19 <nortti_> $ : 4 2 2 * ;
23:55:22 <nortti_> $ 4 3 * .
23:55:22 <oonbotti> 12
23:56:05 <nortti_> who needs number when you can define them on the fly?
23:56:53 <nortti_> +built in
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