←2012-06-06 2012-06-07 2012-06-08→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:42:30 <Gregor> Is it terrible that I'm in Beijing and I want to eat at KFC?
00:42:35 <Gregor> It's just SO popular.
00:42:40 <Gregor> I want to know what all the fuss is about.
00:50:35 <pikhq_> Probably just fried chicken, if it's anything like Japanese KFC.
00:52:41 <quintopia> yes gregor
00:52:59 <quintopia> chin has awesome food
00:53:08 <quintopia> and kfc doesnt capture it
00:53:45 <Gregor> OK, A) All the Chinese food I've had thusfar has disappointed.
00:54:01 <Gregor> B) I have LOTS of time to have authentic food, I need SOME variety anyway.
00:54:04 <quintopia> well, perhaps you shouldnt be eating chinese food
00:54:08 <Gregor> (Yesterday I ate Thai for dinner)
00:54:23 <quintopia> that said, the best chinese food i hac was in shanghi, so you could just be in the wrong part of the country
00:54:49 <pikhq_> Yeah, Chinese food is (I'm told) very heavily regional.
00:54:58 <pikhq_> It could just be that Beijing-area food sucks.
00:55:04 <Gregor> True.
00:55:22 <Gregor> Maybe I should look for a Shanghainese restaurant :)
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00:58:09 <kmc> sichuan food is so good!
00:59:00 <kmc> also there's a restaurant in NYC called Xi'an Famous Foods which has incredible noodles
00:59:16 <kmc> i don't know if this is representative of the food from that area or not
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01:04:20 <Gregor> http://goo.gl/maps/nh6R <-- here, you choose where I should eat Lunch X-D
01:05:39 <pikhq_> Betcha that "western" restaurant's weird... :P
01:07:53 <Gregor> It's probably to "western" food what "Chinese" restaurants are to "Chinese" food O_0
01:09:01 <pikhq_> Yes, exactly.
01:09:07 <kmc> "The toilet recommended a place called Americatown"
01:09:11 <pikhq_> Much like Japanese 'western' food.
01:09:30 <Gregor> pikhq_: But it could be fun for exactly that reason ;)
01:09:47 <pikhq_> Yes.
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07:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Bradbury died.
07:24:15 <Deewiant> 06.17:56:15 ( elliott) Oh, Ray Bradbury died.
07:24:36 <Deewiant> You're a bit over 16 hours late with almost exactly the same message.
07:24:45 <fizzie> Now they'll BradBURY him.
07:24:59 <fizzie> (Well, possibly.)
07:25:12 <monqy> "just normal bury me please" - bradburey
07:25:13 <fizzie> I suppose it could be also bradcremation.
07:25:14 <Deewiant> Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia.
07:25:30 <fizzie> One of those bookwriters.
07:26:00 <Deewiant> Evidently yes. The guy who hated television.
07:26:03 <fizzie> Aged 91; can't perhaps quite call that life tragically cut short.
07:26:33 <pikhq_> That's before the heat death of the universe, so at least *some* would call it cut short.
07:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, and everything else new.
07:34:59 <Deewiant> Well, I suppose that somewhat follows.
07:35:15 <Deewiant> Television isn't generally considered very hate-inducing. Or at least it wasn't back then.
07:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> His WP article actually quotes him saying "We've got too many internets."
07:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, um what, television has always been the go-to thing to bitch about how our culture is totally going downhill from the days when the common man read Dochevsky.
07:36:30 <pikhq_> "We have too many cellphones. We've got too many Internets. We have got to get rid of those machines. We have too many machines now."
07:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, since television became a major part of culture.
07:37:12 <pikhq_> Just when we got to the point where information is forever, too.
07:37:13 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it wasn't that major back then, but maybe I'm wrong.
07:38:20 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Strange concept, that, considering mere universal literacy is relatively young.
07:39:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, well it came out in 1953, so I think it was at least significant and on the rise.
07:40:02 <Deewiant> (it being Fahrenheit 451)
07:41:01 <Deewiant> Maybe so. I'm at least quite sure that it was a very rare thing in Finland at the time, but the UK was somewhat ahead.
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07:42:04 <pikhq_> Took off like crazy in the US.
07:42:37 <pikhq_> Heck, 1953's when NTSC color was introduced.
07:42:41 <Deewiant> Oh whoops, he was American. Well, even more, then.
07:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time.
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07:44:50 <pikhq_> "I Love Lucy" had been running for 2 years by then...
07:45:13 <pikhq_> Heck, Nielsen ratings were introduced in 1950.
07:46:42 <fizzie> "Television was introduced in Finland in 1957. Color television started in 1969. Prior to 1986, YLE monopolized the Finnish television."
07:46:49 <fizzie> We're a bit slow, y'know.
07:46:59 <Deewiant> I was just looking at that stuff. Evidently the first television transmission was in 1955.
07:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god, this conversation has reminded me of the Foundation series.
07:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> That is not a good thing to remember.
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07:47:21 <pikhq_> Yeah, has to first get translated to Japanese, and then put through the Finnish cypher. :P
07:47:24 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: ?
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07:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, well the first parts are OK but once the Second Foundation comes into play it's just this slow, annoying decay into "AHA I am the true force for good in the universe!"
07:48:13 <Deewiant> Sources vary as to the exact year, but 1956-1958 for actual scheduled programs.
07:49:01 <Deewiant> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TV-introduction-world-map.svg
07:49:15 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I seem to recall Asimov being confused as to why people like the Foundation series so much.
07:50:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: At least us scandinavians are mostly in the same group. (Iceland doesn't count.)
07:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Mule is a central character in Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation. Foundation's Edge reveals that he originally came from the planet Gaia, but was regarded as an aberration on a world where mental powers were being developed for benevolent ends."
07:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for fuck's sake Asimov did you really pull that one
07:51:47 <Deewiant> Which one?
07:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Retconning the Mule's origins as being from the stupid psychic planet rather than being a freak of nature, which is a genuinely interesting proposition.
07:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean the whole point of the Mule is that he's basically an outside context problem for the Foundation because they couldn't predict him, which is kind of cheapened by the stupid twist.
07:53:41 <pikhq_> I actually *know* Foundation's Edge was written just to shut up annoying fans.
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07:54:02 <pikhq_> Which is why it, honestly, was uninteresting.
07:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
07:54:37 <pikhq_> Shame, too. I like Asimov when he's not writing on what he obviously doesn't much care for.
07:54:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Outside the "Saha" building there was a sign today advertising an event with the topic "Yhteistyöympäristöt globaaleissa tuoteprosesseissa".
07:55:35 <Deewiant> Sigh.
07:57:46 <fizzie> (Approximate translation: "Cooperation environments in global product processes".)
07:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, I have one of his books of essays and some of them are really good.
08:02:10 <fizzie> I have some Asimov short story collections, and some of those are quite good too. (Some which mention Multivac are sort-of amusingly dated, though.)
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08:22:43 <Taneb> Hello!
08:22:56 <fizzie> Jello!
08:27:02 <shachaf> fizzie: Finnish is a good language.
08:27:09 <shachaf> I wish I knew it. :-(
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08:32:58 <fizzie> Looks fancy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Douyfa7l8
08:35:22 <fizzie> They also have a human-powered street view photography thing: http://googleblog.blogspot.fi/2012/06/never-ending-quest-for-perfect-map.html
08:35:54 <fizzie> (Look how happy the guy is. (I wonder how much that thing weighs.))
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09:50:25 <nortti> shachaf: you can learn it online. really only hard thing is how we put awful lot of junk into a word. ("I sit"->"istun", "you sit"->"istut", "he/she sits"->"hän istuu", "box"->"laatikko", "to box"->"laatikkoon", "in box"->"laatikossa", "from box"->"laatikosta" and so on)
09:51:32 <nortti> "without his box"->"laatikottaan"
09:55:17 <fizziew> "kahvinjuojallekin" - also for a coffee drinker. It's one of our standard examples when talking about the statistical-morphemes-based language model thing we have.
09:56:12 <nortti> "kevytmoottipolttoöljykanisteri"
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09:56:29 <nortti> *moottori
09:57:00 <fizziew> Well, we do a lot of compound words like that, too, but the suffixes are I think more interesting.
09:57:26 <nortti> epäjärjelmällisydettymyydelläkään
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09:58:55 <fizziew> I've most often heard that as "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkään", or some-such. Not that anyone would really go that far, ordinarily.
10:00:16 <nortti> and that is one word with suffixes
10:01:20 <fizziew> Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that.
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10:01:38 <nortti> what files?
10:01:56 <fizziew> It's this collection of newspaper text. We use it for training language models.
10:02:11 <nortti> oh. ok
10:02:42 <fizziew> There's some 145 million words of text there.
10:03:15 <nortti> how large are those files?
10:03:36 <fizziew> Few hundred megabytes. Text compresses well, after all.
10:03:47 <fizziew> It's the audio that takes up space, really.
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10:08:34 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please?
10:08:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:09:21 <fizziew> The Finnish "SPEECON" audio corpus we've used takes up 71 gigabytes of disk, according to du. And it only has three of the four recording channels.
10:09:31 <fizziew> Admittedly it's uncompressed PCM.
10:12:43 <Vorpal> fizziew, four channels?
10:12:52 <Vorpal> what is the point of that?
10:12:56 <Taneb> BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV and Channel 4
10:13:29 <nortti> TV1, TV2, MTV3, Nelonen (four)
10:13:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, I thought he meant audio channels, like stereo has channels
10:13:37 <fizziew> Vorpal: They're recorded with four different microphones -- headset mic, lapel mic, and two more or less far-away microphones -- so that you get the same speech at different noise levels.
10:13:37 <Vorpal> misread
10:13:44 <Vorpal> or not :P
10:13:55 <Taneb> Vorpal, me and nortti were both joking
10:13:59 <Vorpal> right
10:14:25 <nortti> note to self: there are not 32 days in any month
10:15:23 <Vorpal> nortti, why would there be?
10:16:50 <nortti> Vorpal: I fucked up my calendar calculation software and so it thinks that normaly months are either 32 or 31 days long and February is either 30 or 29 days
10:17:25 <Vorpal> whoa, latest firefox update makes firefox empty tab page look like chrome, showing images of commonly visited pages
10:17:26 <Taneb> Subtract 1 day from each month
10:17:32 <Vorpal> not sure I like that...
10:18:07 <nortti> Vorpal: you can disable that
10:18:14 <Vorpal> nortti, where?
10:18:21 <Vorpal> trying to look for that setting atm
10:18:45 <nortti> Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there
10:19:22 <Vorpal> what old tab behaviour? I use tab mix plus addon so I guess it overwrote any changes to that
10:19:32 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway, which about:config setting?
10:22:38 <Vorpal> hm also scrolling with pgup/pgdown (useful since this is a laptop, and I don't use the touchpad, I use the trackpoint) now seems to visibly scroll rather than just jump
10:22:39 <Vorpal> why
10:22:41 <fizziew> Vorpal: New Firefox also default-enables SPDY.
10:22:55 <fizziew> Not that I think any non-Google entities really go all SPDY.
10:23:06 <Vorpal> yeah that would be doubtful
10:23:24 <Vorpal> which httpds even supports spdy?
10:23:33 <fizziew> There's an Apache module, but that's not a surprise.
10:23:39 <fizziew> There's probably an Apache module for everything.
10:23:59 <fizziew> The scrolling is the "smooth scrolling", and I did notice they mentioned default-enabling that too in the change notes.
10:24:11 <Vorpal> what about ngnix?
10:24:26 <Vorpal> fizziew, any idea how to turn off the smooth scrolling, it just takes pointless time
10:24:52 <Vorpal> ah found it
10:24:59 <fizziew> general.smoothScroll is my guess.
10:25:03 <Vorpal> general.smoothScroll
10:25:04 <Vorpal> yeah
10:25:15 <Vorpal> why so much eye candy :(
10:26:09 <fizziew> They have to keep up with the competition, after all.
10:26:13 <Vorpal> is there an RFC for SPDY? I seem to remember reading that firefox wouldn't be implementing SPDY until there was an RFC for it
10:26:53 <fizziew> I don't think there's anything else than the non-RFC drafts that say "this is not a standard yet" in bold at top.
10:26:57 <fizziew> At least last I looked.
10:27:01 <Vorpal> uh, I just checked chrome, it doesn't smooth scroll :P
10:27:34 <fizziew> Well, then, not only keep up, but surpass them.
10:27:39 <Vorpal> hah
10:27:58 <Vorpal> anyway I can't find any option for the new tab in about:config, nor did google turn up anything useful
10:29:45 <fizziew> http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/new-tab-page-show-hide-and-customize-top-sites?s=new+tab+page&r=1&e=es&as=s#w_how-do-i-turn-the-new-tab-page-off
10:30:08 <fizziew> browser.newtab.url from 'about:newtab' to 'about:blank'.
10:30:19 <Vorpal> ah
10:30:57 <Vorpal> yay
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10:33:06 <oklopol> soup
10:33:29 <fizziew> Chicken soup.
10:34:14 <oklopol> chicken it up huh
10:34:24 <fizziew> oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009?
10:34:40 <oklopol> yes, according to elliott
10:34:50 <oklopol> i don't remember doing that, but it's obviously my code.
10:35:29 <oklopol> why ask u
10:35:45 <fizziew> I just independently came across it, and wondered if there could be two of you.
10:35:49 <fizziew> That would be quite a shock.
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10:36:36 <oklopol> actually i've seen a few people called oklopol on the internets, but their existences have been brief
10:36:50 <fizziew> You ate them and obtained their powers?
10:36:53 <oklopol> yes
10:37:10 <Vorpal> does oklopol mean anything in Finnish?
10:37:27 <fizziew> More importantly, do you expect you'd get a straight answer from him?
10:37:37 <Vorpal> I didn't target it at him only
10:37:41 <Vorpal> you could answer too
10:37:42 <oklopol> yes, it means One Who De-fucking-vours His Enemies.
10:37:52 <fizziew> I wouldn't want to spoil the effect.
10:37:53 <Vorpal> fizziew, to me it doesn't seem like an obvious nick at all
10:38:23 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've told the channel where my nick comes from
10:38:55 <oklopol> monopoly => monopoli => olopoli => oklopol.
10:39:27 <Vorpal> ah
10:39:53 <oklopol> after we played olopoli at this scouting event some years ago, there was this whole thing about the bitter aftertaste of oklopol, and the deadly forests of oklopol. we rarely discuss the aftertaste now that i've taken it as a permanick.
10:40:17 <oklopol> dunno where the k came from.
10:40:25 <oklopol> or the aftertaste thing.
10:41:24 <fizziew> What a perfectly straightforward story.
10:41:40 <oklopol> i think so too
10:42:34 <oklopol> so i'm making a webpage, i hear that's the hip new thing
10:43:15 <fizziew> "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan."
10:43:20 <fizziew> Oh, so it's a real thing.
10:43:21 <oklopol> yes
10:43:22 <fizziew> I thought you made it up.
10:43:26 <oklopol> no.
10:43:31 <oklopol> i never lie
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10:43:43 <fizziew> Hey, that's funny.
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10:43:53 <oklopol> it was the hilarioust game of ever.
10:44:31 <oklopol> has it been played on multiple occasions?
10:44:38 <Vorpal> <fizziew> "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan." <-- huh?
10:45:13 <Vorpal> google translate is usually terrible from Finnish so care to give me translation?
10:45:48 <fizziew> Vorpal: Uh... Olopoli is a functional and thought-provoking game about the life of a young person. And then some less important stuff.
10:45:59 <fizziew> I don't really know what "toiminnallinen" means. Action-full?
10:46:02 <oklopol> olopoli is a hip and cool youngster game, you play it with a bunch of buddies, every bunch brings an object (a shoe or some other utensil) and also you need something for your ass.
10:46:04 <fizziew> It's such a vague word.
10:46:11 <Vorpal> fizziew, so what about the monopoly bit?
10:46:18 <oklopol> that's where the name comes from
10:46:22 <oklopol> obviously
10:46:41 <Vorpal> huh
10:46:52 <oklopol> also the board is a 1-dimensional torus like in monopoly.
10:46:56 <fizziew> Does it actually have anything to do with it game-mechanistically speaking, though? (Well, I guess the shoe fits. Isn't one of the playing pieces a shoe?)
10:47:00 <fizziew> Okay.
10:47:24 <oklopol> i don't remember how it was played, i just remember we learned things like always use a condom with a prostitute unless she promises you're her first.
10:47:34 <oklopol> or smth like that
10:47:38 <fizziew> Sounds educational.
10:47:40 <Vorpal> heh
10:47:59 <fizziew> There's a computer game that teaches you important things about puberty too, it's called "Murkku", I've occasionally been trying to re-find it.
10:48:22 <fizziew> (Short for 'murrosikä', puberty.)
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10:49:31 <oklopol> fizziew: did you find anything other than that description
10:49:32 <oklopol> ?
10:49:49 <oklopol> i have to go get my conference proceedings back from my ex soon
10:50:31 <fizzie> oklopol: Some camp schedules with Olopoli hours marked. And a press release mentioning the introducing of Olopoli.
10:50:38 <oklopol> which camp?
10:50:54 <oklopol> we played it at tarus
10:51:25 <fizzie> It's in tarus.fi, yes.
10:51:35 <fizzie> "5. Finnjamboree Padasjoki 28.7.-5.8.2004"
10:52:03 <oklopol> that long ago :o
10:52:08 <fizzie> Also there's an article about it in the proceedings of "Kouluterveyspäivät 2009" at University of Tampere.
10:52:12 <Vorpal> I would never have guessed oklopol used to be a boyscout. Heh.
10:52:32 <oklopol> i still get invited in scouting things.
10:52:36 <Vorpal> ouch
10:52:52 <oklopol> mainly because most of my friends still do it
10:52:58 <Vorpal> heh
10:53:24 <fizzie> "Olopoli's purpose is to challenge the participants to a conversation about e.g. relationships, personal wellbeing, sexuality and drugs."
10:53:50 <fizzie> My wife's brothers did scout stuff.
10:54:49 <fizzie> But the first version was unveiled at Tarus 2004, apparently.
10:55:15 <oklopol> i liked the parts where we did nothing in a cold, wet and dark forest. i hated the parts where we did stuff.
10:56:35 <oklopol> when people tell me about the horrors of the army, it almost makes me want to go. then i realize it's not all freezing to death and being awake weeks at a time. you also have to be part of a social hierarchy.
10:56:44 <fizzie> MURKKU I can't find, though. There's a forum posting from 2007 asking "doesn't anyone remember MURKKU?", but that's about all. :/
10:57:03 <oklopol> :D
10:57:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that from the scouts too?
10:57:11 <oklopol> reminds me of that XKCD comic
10:57:15 <oklopol> no
10:57:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: No. But it was educational. We had a copy at the school's computer classroom.
10:57:31 <Vorpal> ah
10:57:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, which xkcd comic?
10:57:59 <oklopol> the one where the guy has some obscure problem and finds a forum where someone has asked about it.
10:58:02 <oklopol> and no one has answered.
10:58:04 <oklopol> it was great.
10:58:06 <Vorpal> ah right
10:58:07 <Vorpal> that one
10:58:14 <fizzie> It was in the style of one of those "select from a preset list of commands" adventure games.
10:58:28 <fizzie> There was a "listen" command, which played a sequence of random bleeps and said "you hear voices". I'm not sure if it was useful for anything else.
10:59:00 <fizzie> Also you could look at yourself, and get a random word describing your emotional state, plus some other attributes like "you smell bad" if you've taken the sausage for the dog.
10:59:00 <oklopol> "you get your first zit. do you a) kill yourself b) kill your friends c) keep masturbating, but use a less clean mirror from now on"
10:59:10 <fizzie> Or "The VCR you stole weighs your conscience."
10:59:12 <fizzie> Or whatnot.
10:59:35 <fizzie> Also there was something about a rusty bed-frame in a tree.
10:59:43 <fizzie> I may be mixing these things up a bit.
10:59:46 <Vorpal> heh
10:59:48 <oklopol> excuse me but this game sounds awesome
11:00:30 <fizzie> It's not very long. I don't remember what happens when you win.
11:00:47 <oklopol> "yay you're an adult now. you can never play MURKKU again."
11:00:51 <fizzie> I think there were some hobos and a junk heap also involved.
11:01:02 <fizzie> Possibly in conjunction with the bed.
11:04:38 <fizzie> It was made by <something>soft, I think. Where 'something' was a derivation from the "lead programmer"'s first name.
11:05:59 <oklopol> kind of did sound like a computer game, but i wanted to keep the mystery
11:07:12 <fizzie> I'm so displeased about not being able to find this thing in the Internet. Everything's supposed to be there.
11:10:49 <oklopol> the internet is overrated, most things i need daily are more likely found in the small library of the math dep than on the internet
11:11:18 <nortti> Vorpal: the one that tabs open at the end of tab bar. also it seems you can turn disable that new emty tab page by clicking some cube icon at upper right
11:11:38 <fizzie> Not "disable", just hide.
11:11:44 <oklopol> and it's weird what they say about porn on the internet, it's really a very tiny percentage that gets there, you have to order most things directly from the germans.
11:12:35 <oklopol> okay i have to go get my proceedings WHICH YOU CANNOT READ FREELY ON THE INTERNET :(
11:13:12 <fizzie> Academic publishing: it's what's for dinner.
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11:42:20 <fizzie> Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows"
11:42:28 <fizzie> I, uh. Okay.
11:44:24 <nortti> :P
11:45:09 <fizzie> It's recently (Jan 2011 is recent, right?) gotten a new Qt UI.
11:45:46 <nortti> what toolkit did the old UI use?
11:47:12 <fizzie> Xaw, I think.
11:47:26 <fizzie> It was all retro like that.
11:47:43 <fizzie> Not that I ever used the X version, wasn't much point.
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11:48:46 <nortti> is there other than X version of it? is the old Xaw toolkit version still available?
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11:49:08 <nortti> (that would run on linux I mean)
11:49:17 <fizzie> There's a non-graphical version.
11:49:29 <fizzie> It might have had some sort of a curses-like UI, I don't exactly remember.
11:49:43 <fizzie> http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization.
11:50:33 <nortti> imo the old was much better
11:51:27 <fizzie> Well, that's arguable. I've never been much of a fan with the Xaw scrollbars.
11:53:01 <nortti> I like them. Xaw is also light and that is a good thing. on X I se xterm as my terminal emulator and xedit as my text editor
11:53:46 <Vorpal> nortti, does xedit even have syntax highlighting?
11:54:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: You're asking this from a person who uses busybox vi. :p
11:54:18 <Vorpal> oh
11:55:12 <nortti> well I don't normaly use busybox vi. I like unix v6 ed bit more
11:55:22 <Vorpal> you are joking, right?
11:55:27 <nortti> nope
11:55:28 <fizzie> It's the standard text editor, no joking about it.
11:55:34 <Vorpal> nortti, you should use TECO
11:56:05 <nortti> Vorpal: can it be run on modern linux
11:56:13 <Vorpal> no idea
11:56:27 <fizzie> I think there's at least some ports.
11:56:34 <Vorpal> not unlikely indeed
11:56:47 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway why use modern linux? You should use something older
11:56:54 <Vorpal> like a PDP-11
11:57:29 <nortti> Vorpal: I have apout so if it has been ported to unix v7 or older on pdp-11 I can run it
11:57:39 <Vorpal> apout?
11:58:07 <atehwa> elliott: ability and will yes, time no; I'm willing to delegate
11:58:07 <nortti> binary translator/syscall emulator for old unix pdp-11 software
11:58:12 <Vorpal> heh
11:58:32 <fizzie> Speaking of terminals (earlier), the "search for books" public terminals at Helsinki libraries used to be VT-420s. You could twiddle them to the setup mode if you wanted, and get some higher-resolution things going. (And/or break the communications link if you messed with the settings too much.)
11:58:50 <fizzie> I think they've replaced those with plain old x86 PCs a decade or so ago, though.
11:58:57 <nortti> Vorpal: I use it to run my unix v6 binaries (currently ed and dc)
11:59:10 <Vorpal> lol
12:00:15 <nortti> for some reason zzo38's deadfish implementation didn't really run very nicely under my dc...
12:00:31 <Vorpal> you should mention it to him directly?
12:01:09 <fizzie> Also I seem to remember you could quit out from the book-search application, but all that got you was a login screen of some Unix, so it wasn't too exciting. Plus then no-one could again use the terminal.
12:01:41 <Vorpal> hah
12:01:42 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't think he thinks maintaining support for unix v6 dc is important
12:01:53 <Vorpal> don't be too sure with zzo
12:02:36 <nortti> I think it would work with unix v7 dc but I am not building another ancient unix from scracth
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12:12:23 <nortti> wow. teco is 700kB in size
12:12:53 <fizzie> Such bloat.
12:13:37 <nortti> well my ed 6.2kB
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12:15:46 <Vorpal> hm how do you reset zoom level in chrome?
12:16:17 <fizzie> Ctrl-0 sounds familiar.
12:16:28 <Vorpal> ah yes
12:16:29 <Vorpal> that's it
12:16:58 <fizzie> The "wrench menu" zoom tool doesn't seem to have a thing for it.
12:17:17 <Vorpal> okay these results are strange... I tried a font test in the browser (on windows), turns out that while Segoe UI at 8 pt is larger than Tahoma at the same size, the reverse is true at 9 pt
12:17:20 <Vorpal> that is just odd
12:17:49 * Vorpal is trying to find a suitable font to replace Segoe UI with on windows
12:18:05 <fizzie> Sgeo UI.
12:18:10 <Vorpal> because it looks terrible with cleartype off, and with cleartype on everything else looks horrible
12:18:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, no :P
12:18:30 <Vorpal> I need a font with the same metric though
12:19:33 <Vorpal> MS Sans Serif isn't even close either
12:21:36 <nortti> umh. can someone help me with TECO?
12:22:54 <Vorpal> hm MS Sans Serif and Arial have almost the same metric, in fact they look almost identical as well. Very tiny difference there.
12:24:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Google-commissioned "Open Sans" is I think somewhat similar to Segoe. (Not terribly much so, but somewhat.)
12:24:54 <fizzie> Don't know about character set coverage and such.
12:29:02 <Vorpal> why would google want to make a font?
12:29:48 <Vorpal> anyway it looks slightly blurry to me.
12:29:55 <Vorpal> almost like it is forcing cleartype
12:29:56 <Vorpal> ugh
12:30:11 <Vorpal> so yeah, not good
12:31:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, on linux I use full hinting and greyscale antialias. I'm okay with no antialias if the font is good for that (like arial, tahoma and MS Sans Serif)
12:31:45 <Vorpal> verdana is perfectly readable without antialias too btw
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12:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights.
12:36:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which one was a problem?
12:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Nearly finished this area? WELL NOW YOU GET TO PLAY THE SAME FUCKING SECTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN"
12:36:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Phantom.
12:36:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh that, it was fairly easy. Just use the lights
12:37:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, Google does have some user interfaces. I've heard they've got sites in the web, and this mobile thing called Nordraid or something.
12:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I get that you twat.
12:37:11 <Vorpal> I didn't die once during that. Also just buy some of those caramel things that restore your HP if you run out
12:37:17 <Vorpal> that helps a lot
12:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh that's fucking great to know in THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT.
12:37:28 <Vorpal> you can carry a max of 3, but that helps a lot
12:37:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh it is in the shop?
12:37:52 <Vorpal> you surely must have noticed that
12:38:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, har har
12:38:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah Vorpal you realise that beyond mentioning the shop about once the game gives you no indication as to what anything does, and of course all the actual items have cutesy little descriptions which don't actually tell you what they /do/.
12:39:10 <Vorpal> err, you can press some button to show a desc
12:39:23 <Vorpal> forgot which one, it does say on the side
12:39:26 <Vorpal> and it is fairly detailed
12:39:47 <Vorpal> (the voice acting for the item needs to complete first)
12:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how Psychonauts' interface is like this Platonically perfect terrible one.
12:40:12 <Vorpal> sure, it could be more obvious, but it isn't as bad as you make it out to be
12:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean right at the start you have to spend like 10 seconds watching all the animations they put between you and loading a save.
12:40:47 <Vorpal> agree, the interface could be way better, for example: the main menu interface, while cute, is rather annoying
12:40:56 <Vorpal> right
12:41:11 <Vorpal> and that bed system if you don't select "continue"
12:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Not to mention that the controls are painfully obviously a terrible console port.
12:41:29 <Vorpal> well yes
12:41:49 <Vorpal> I would definitely like more ability keys than the three current
12:42:06 <nortti> wow. TECO is awesome
12:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Not just that; things like the inventory paging system which basically ground the game to a halt while I looked for help.
12:43:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? It is kind of slow and cumbersome, but why did you look for help?
12:43:55 <Vorpal> one thing that annoy me is that the 2 and z in the key bindings look like they are the same char
12:44:05 <Vorpal> so I was like "how can that be bound to the same key" for a while
12:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 1 opens your inventory. 2 opens your abilities. Pressing 2 while looking at your inventory opens abilities... unless you have multiple pages of inventory, in which case it flips to the second page.
12:44:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, slow and cumbersome, but why look for help?
12:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> If you miss the brief tooltip saying it's 2 to change pages or confuse it for a z?
12:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Have fun trying to find out how it works, because the game's certainly not going to tell you.
12:45:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Not on the inventory screen, not in the keybindings, nowhere.
12:45:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I /did/ confuse it for a z, until I rebound it to g for a bit, then I went like "hmm, maybe it was actually 2?"
12:45:48 <Vorpal> and changed it back
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12:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> But the point is that the key is really unintuitive, especially on a keyboard, and the game makes no effort to compensate that.
12:46:27 <Vorpal> 2 or z?
12:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> 2.
12:47:02 <Vorpal> not really, the keys are laid out for using with one hand, and the other hand on the mouse, 1 and 2 are easy to reach when using wasd to move around
12:47:11 <Taneb> Hello
12:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm saying that /there is no reason to think that will be the key to change page/.
12:47:50 <Vorpal> hm okay
12:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Not that it's a particularly /bad/ key to do it.
12:48:00 <Vorpal> well true, I did notice when the game told me the first time
12:48:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what I did miss was when it told me to use F to turn around when swinging. Had to google that
12:48:31 <fizzie> I should apparently arrange some time to play that game, I'm all "out" all the time nowadays.
12:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, missed that too.
12:48:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then I died, and restarted so it told me a second time
12:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, you should probably play it on that gamepad you mentioned; you may have gathered that the devs spent absolutely no effort whatsoever on porting the controls.
12:49:32 <fizzie> I've gathered it's a somewhat consoly game, yes.
12:49:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not really /that/ bad. It is not like the game would have told you about turning around while swinging any better on a pad
12:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but things like the inventory system are clearly geared to a gamepad.
12:50:26 <Vorpal> well yes
12:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the targeting system is maybe less abysmal on a gamepad? I don't know.
12:50:43 <Vorpal> hm, not sure
12:50:54 <Vorpal> I don't own a game pad, so I don't really have the required experience for it
12:51:06 <Vorpal> but yes, the lock on is somewhat annoying.
12:51:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also mouse acceleration vertically is off IMO.
12:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I gave up completely on looking up or down.
12:52:00 <Vorpal> also I think I selected inverted up/down, except in first person view it is the opposite of third person view now
12:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The game clearly doesn't want me to do it, why else would they make it so hard?
12:52:21 <fizzie> I don't really have "gamepad reflexes" down very well, I've done so little with it. It's got those sticks, I think they're kinda important nowadays.
12:52:21 <Vorpal> not sure if it is inverted if you didn't change it from the default though
12:53:49 <Vorpal> I wonder how that new Wii U thing with the touch screen is going to affect console ports, are we going to get better mapping of abilities perhaps?
12:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
12:54:04 <Vorpal> hm?
12:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal when have you ever heard of a console port of a Wii game
12:54:41 <Taneb> Alien Syndrome had a PSP port
12:54:49 <fizzie> What was that thing with a touchscreen in the back?
12:54:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well no, but other vendors are going to copy their idea if it is successful. Like the motion control thingy. The Playstation Move, Kinect and so on
12:55:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that is the PS Vita iirc
12:55:12 <Vorpal> handheld
12:55:14 <Phantom_Hoover> s/console port/PC port/
12:55:24 <fizzie> Right, the Vita.
12:55:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, right
12:56:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I find it hard to believe people are going to be looking at the Wii U touchscreen much; it sounds rather tiresome to keep flipping focus between the in-hand mini-screen and the few-metres-away TV.
12:56:05 <Taneb> Wasn't World of Goo orignally for the Wii?
12:56:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, played Bastion yet? That is a good console port.
12:56:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, it is.
12:56:25 <Vorpal> Taneb, surely it must have been for mobile?
12:56:40 <Vorpal> it seems so obvious that it should be a touchscreen or mouse
12:56:43 <fizzie> Taneb: "World of Goo was first released both for Windows and WiiWare in North America on October 13, 2008."
12:56:46 <Taneb> Windows and WiiWare originally
12:56:47 <Vorpal> I can't even see a console controller working
12:56:49 <Vorpal> huh
12:56:49 <Vorpal> okay
12:56:52 <Taneb> I knew it was Wii early on
12:57:13 <Vorpal> WiiWare, is that like xbox live?
12:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right?
12:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also it's Nintendo's software distribution service.
12:57:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, yes
12:57:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so yes then
12:57:40 <Taneb> XBox live arcade or somehting
12:57:41 <fizzie> It's like a stylus except with a big gap. :p
12:57:43 <Vorpal> ah right
12:57:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I was under the impression that the accuracy wasn't all that good
12:57:59 <Vorpal> never used a Wii though myself
12:58:12 <Taneb> It's not awful
12:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's decent, although if you put it against a window it's a bitch to use.
12:58:22 <Vorpal> doesn't it need recentering all the time iirc?
12:58:37 <Taneb> Not really
12:58:43 <Vorpal> watched a bit of an LP of skyward sword, and the guy kept recentering a lot
12:59:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I went mad trying to play Twilight Princess in Ireland because the room was laid out so the TV was right in front of a sweeping vista of some hills and sheep and a few reflective surfaces, and the weather decided to clear up just for me.
12:59:28 <Vorpal> ouch
13:01:16 <fizzie> World of Kinect-Goo would let you get your hands dirty, I suppose.
13:01:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it actually exist?
13:01:33 <fizzie> No clue.
13:01:45 <Vorpal> anyway kinect has horrible accuracy from what I heard
13:02:03 <fizzie> Apparently not officially, but there's a video of people doing it.
13:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Dwarf Fortress adventure mode on the Kinect would be surprisingly elegant.
13:02:12 <fizzie> "The position of your hand is mapped to the cursor, and then we recognize you opening and closing your hand to grab and release the goo."
13:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It just does exactly what you do in the game world.
13:02:38 <fizzie> (Using the PC version and the Kinect SDK, of course.)
13:02:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and that is?
13:03:01 <Vorpal> (or isn't there a punchline here?)
13:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Hacking people's third fingers, right hand off.
13:03:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
13:03:36 <fizzie> The video seems somewhat flailing-aroundy, but maybe not quite as much I expected. It's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0j1YsDmAXA
13:04:12 <fizzie> Not a precision controller by any means.
13:05:06 <Vorpal> indeed
13:05:19 <Vorpal> I heard the PS Move has pretty good accuracy though
13:05:36 <Vorpal> never really seen it used much
13:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Did not realise World of Goo had such an overwrought soundtrack.
13:07:42 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights." yeah why do they have to make them so excruciatingly easy
13:08:02 <Vorpal> hah
13:08:06 <fizzie> Did not realize World of Goo had a soundtrack at all.
13:08:26 <fizzie> oklopol: Only humans count in game discussions, sorry.
13:08:55 <Vorpal> actually all the boss fights (so far, haven't quite finished the game yet) are quite easy once you figure out what the trick is
13:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Difficulty isn't my biggest gripe, it's repetition.
13:09:44 <Vorpal> I think the one against Dogan's brain in the brain tumbler experiment was probably the trickiest one so far
13:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's "do it again, stupid" gameplay, even once you've learnt the trick.
13:11:03 <Vorpal> Do you refer to that the bosses doesn't vary their attacks very much or what?
13:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save.
13:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, buy that candy to avoid that
13:12:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Repeating the same things over and over again isn't 'challenging', it's annoying.
13:12:22 <Vorpal> it will refill your health when you run out, and you can carry three of them
13:12:27 <Vorpal> so more than enough usually
13:13:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it has some really creative level design though. Especially with the mad people in the asylum.
13:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, the level design is amazing.
13:13:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, have you entered the mind of Fred Bonaparte yet?
13:13:47 <Vorpal> I went wow at that
13:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It normally makes up for all the flaws, but when the game sticks a giant, annoying wall in the way of seeing more level design?
13:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I haven't completed the Phantom fight.
13:14:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, I think you can do those minds in any order though
13:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I have this terrible suspicion that if I leave Gloria's mind I'll have to redo everything.
13:15:50 <Vorpal> possibly, you could make a save and try it though
13:15:57 <Vorpal> and there are those teleport creatures
13:17:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway that boss fight is not all that difficult. And you could use the piece of bacon to "regroup at HQ", go out and buy some candy and go back in by talking to Ford Cruller. Should get you back near it at least.
13:17:39 <oklopol> fizzie: you do realize you have beat me in games on multiple occasions
13:17:48 <oklopol> (at least slightly)
13:18:00 <fizzie> oklopol: I recall no such thing.
13:18:16 <Vorpal> not sure what happens to figments when using that option though, since there is a visual effect when using it that looks like figments flying away from you
13:18:22 <Vorpal> never tried it inside a mind in fact
13:18:28 <fizzie> I even gave up that Dot Action 2 thing at some point.
13:19:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you start the fight with full health it is easy. Which level are you at? I was probably around 50 or so at that point I think
13:21:52 <oklopol> fizzie: there was that game where you were a stick figure, and then there was that game where you were a robot which you programmed around town.
13:22:29 <fizzie> oklopol: I vaguely recall the second one, it was that thing with the tiles. But I don't remember what happened. And I don't remember a stick figure.
13:23:01 <oklopol> which i guess we were roughly equally good at and Deewiant was incredibly slow but did some of the really hard puzzles on the first attempt, so comparison was hard. and everyone not finnish of course sucked ass.
13:23:22 <oklopol> stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump
13:23:30 <oklopol> and the other was robozzle or something
13:23:32 <fizzie> That's Dot Action 2, exactly.
13:23:42 <fizzie> And I think you got further in it than I.
13:23:52 <oklopol> didn't we both beat it?
13:23:56 <oklopol> maybe you stopped near the end
13:24:06 <fizzie> There was the labyrinth thing at level ninety-something, I gave up at that, or soon after.
13:24:19 <Vorpal> <oklopol> stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump <-- platformer?
13:24:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Dot action 2. Certainly you remember it.
13:24:37 <Vorpal> don't think I played it
13:24:39 <oklopol> oh right, i think i did that on the second attempt, might have quit if i had been less lucky
13:26:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe so. You apparently asked about it in 2009, and ehird explained what it's like.
13:26:56 <fizzie> It's a web flash thing.
13:27:43 <fizzie> I did dig out the all-levels codes from the swf file, though.
13:28:01 <fizzie> It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones.
13:28:26 <Vorpal> so in fact it has 108 levels?
13:28:53 <fizzie> Yes, but the final 8 don't really count, because you get access to all of them after beating level 100.
13:32:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh so you can access the other 100 in any order you want?
13:33:02 <fizzie> No.
13:33:12 <fizzie> You can access the 8 in any order, after beating level 100.
13:33:33 <fizzie> You can access level 100 after beating level 99, you can access level 99 after beating level 98, and so on.
13:34:03 <fizzie> So the last 8 aren't part of the ordinary progression. (Also, they're in a completely different level list.)
13:34:19 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 14:40:39] < fizzie> I did a half-hearted attempt at 93, but missed one blue dot in the lava room.
13:34:23 <fizzie> I got at least that far.
13:36:05 <fizzie> It might have been at that point that oko blazed past me and I gaved up.
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13:44:10 <elliott> hi
13:44:10 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:45:11 <elliott> 00:45:25: <oerjan> CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME
13:45:19 <elliott> i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway.
13:45:48 <Taneb> elliott, that wall is oerjan's floor
13:46:05 <elliott> ah.
13:47:34 <elliott> 07:25:14: <Deewiant> Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia.
13:47:39 <fizzie> Sure it was; quite a lot of people watched it in Finland.
13:47:40 <elliott> Deewiant: Fahrenheit 451.
13:47:54 <elliott> fizzie: Well, ISTR it wasn't visible in the UK, and what's the difference?
13:48:11 <Taneb> elliott, you may have been thinking of the last one
13:48:19 <fizzie> "Visible in its entirety from Hawaii, Alaska, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific and Eastern Asia, with the beginning of the transit visible from North America and the end visible from Europe"
13:48:20 <elliott> Taneb: This one was visible???
13:48:20 <Taneb> Or being confused by cloud cover
13:48:26 <elliott> I looked at all the websites and all!
13:48:30 <elliott> What did it look like.
13:48:36 <Taneb> Clouds
13:48:41 <elliott> Thanks
13:48:56 <fizzie> I didn't watch it, but in Helsinki there was a break in the cloud cover for approximately a minute.
13:49:10 <fizzie> It looked like a tiny dot in front of a glowy thing (Sun).
13:49:13 <elliott> 07:43:24: <Phantom_Hoover> Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time.
13:49:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I watch that BTW I've always been tempted by the cool name.
13:49:33 <elliott> fizzie: Did you stare at the sun???
13:49:36 <elliott> I'd stare at the sun. :(
13:49:45 <elliott> I stare at the sun quite a lot. Possibly not the best thing I do.
13:49:47 <fizzie> No. I didn't have any protective eqibblement.
13:49:54 <elliott> fizzie: I meant directly.
13:50:04 <fizzie> http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/transit/V_2012/world_2012.png -- the northern tip of Finland I think saw the thing in its entirety, that's what the white part I think means.
13:50:18 <fizzie> Here in "the south" it was just partially visible.
13:51:12 <fizzie> Apparently it looked like this: http://hs10.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305572999091?ts=1053
13:51:22 <fizzie> Exciting!
13:51:24 <elliott> It just looks like the other spots.
13:51:29 <elliott> Are we sure Venus really exists?
13:51:37 <fizzie> It's a bit darker, I think.
13:51:52 <elliott> Yes. A little.
13:52:16 <elliott> 10:01:20: <fizziew> Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that.
13:52:21 <elliott> fizzie: Is that to prevent COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT?
13:52:51 <fizzie> elliott: It's either that, or just that no-one else than Vesa has actually bothered to touch the original files, so no-one has noticed he hasn't made them group-readable.
13:53:03 <fizzie> Anyway, there'll be another Venus transit in 2117, it's not like it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
13:53:21 <elliott> fizzie: Who gave Vesa root? Who is even Vesa anyway???
13:53:28 <elliott> Also, I don't anticipate living that long. :(
13:53:44 <fizzie> I don't think Vesa has root, but the files are owned by him since he presumably put them there.
13:54:05 <fizzie> umask strikes back.
13:54:08 <elliott> Oh, I was assuming 600 with owner root.
13:54:10 <elliott> For Some Reason.
13:54:19 <elliott> For Some Values Of Reason.
13:54:33 <fizzie> I don't think Vesa even works here any more.
13:55:32 <elliott> fizzie: Well, they probably fired em. After all, there are better graphics modes these days.
13:55:34 <fizzie> Yeah, he's that guy who works at Rosetta Stone somewhere in the US nowadays.
13:56:18 <elliott> Well, I can't say the stone is particularly high resolution.
13:56:20 <fizzie> (Rosetta Stone does language-learning software that's somewhat notable.)
13:56:52 <elliott> I know.
13:57:05 <elliott> I considered "pirating" it once, but it looked ineffective.
13:57:27 <fizzie> It's won awards and all. It has Dynamic Immersion technology.
13:57:38 <fizzie> (I don't know what that means.)
13:57:46 <elliott> It immerses.
13:57:47 <elliott> Dynamically.
13:58:42 <oklopol> fizzie: does it say whether i finished the game?
13:59:04 <fizzie> oklopol: I think you did. At least you were in level 98 or so at that point.
14:00:06 <oklopol> okay seems hard to believe i'd have stopped then.
14:00:30 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 15:34:24] < oklopol> bleh i'll do 98 later tonight.
14:00:37 <oklopol> especially as i have this feeling that the last levels were surprisingly easy
14:00:43 <fizzie> Then it was about cyphers for God to solve.
14:00:49 <elliott> Wait.
14:00:50 <elliott> Which game?
14:00:57 <oklopol> dot
14:00:59 <oklopol> action
14:00:59 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 22:49:41] < oklopol> can someone solve 99 for me?
14:00:59 <oklopol> 2
14:01:02 <oklopol> :D
14:01:03 <elliott> oklopol: You're playing Dot Action 2 again???
14:01:04 <fizzie> There you are.
14:01:09 <oklopol> darn
14:01:14 <oklopol> have to check whether i solved it
14:01:17 <oklopol> or solve it just in case
14:01:22 <elliott> fizzie: What started this.
14:01:22 <fizzie> Oh, 99 was a maze too.
14:01:35 <fizzie> elliott: I blamed oklopol for being too good in games.
14:01:55 <elliott> fizzie: Isn't Dot Action 2 the bestest?
14:02:00 <elliott> You should play it too.
14:04:02 <fizzie> I played like seven levels before I remembered I'm at work.
14:04:47 <elliott> 10:18:07: <nortti> Vorpal: you can disable that
14:04:48 <elliott> 10:18:14: <Vorpal> nortti, where?
14:04:48 <elliott> 10:18:21: <Vorpal> trying to look for that setting atm
14:04:49 <elliott> 10:18:45: <nortti> Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there
14:04:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You can just press an X on the screen or something.
14:05:01 <elliott> Or do it in about:config if you want to waste a bunch of time, I guess.
14:05:02 <fizzie> But it's "hide" and not "disable"!
14:05:34 <fizzie> "If you are concerned about your privacy, you can turn this feature off completely: In the Location bar, type about:config ..." -- support.mozilla.org.
14:05:47 <fizzie> Since they say it like that, certainly there's some valid privacy concerns involved.
14:06:09 <fizzie> (I don't know what they could be.)
14:06:50 <nortti> it tracs what sites you visit the most?
14:07:16 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it tracks history no matter what you set "browser.newtab.url" to.
14:07:31 <fizzie> It's not like the ATTAKCER couldn't just type in "about:newtab" to see the page.
14:07:39 <elliott> You mean my browser KNOWS WHERE I GO ON THE INTERNET????
14:07:45 <elliott> ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOO
14:07:51 <elliott> Oi.
14:07:51 <elliott> fungot.
14:07:54 <fizzie> NOOOOOO.
14:07:55 <elliott> fizzie: Fix it.
14:07:59 <fizzie> There was a network problem. A moment.
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14:08:58 <elliott> ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOO
14:08:58 <fungot> NOOOOOOOOOOOO
14:09:01 <elliott> I feel whole.
14:09:43 <fizzie> I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab".
14:09:50 <elliott> 10:34:24: <fizziew> oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009?
14:09:51 <elliott> :D
14:09:56 <elliott> fizzie: That's impomatic's blog, by the way.
14:10:06 <elliott> 15:09 <fizzie> I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab".
14:10:07 <fizzie> Oh, I did not realizibble.
14:10:14 <elliott> Just use IE's "InPrivate" browsing mode!
14:10:29 <elliott> It's designed for gifts but — and don't tell anyone this — it ALSO WORKS FOR PORNOGRAPHY.
14:10:34 <elliott> Or so I hear.
14:11:32 <elliott> fizzie: So is fizziew like fizzie but it doesn't start a console window?
14:11:50 <fizzie> Something like that.
14:11:56 <fizzie> (Actually it's 'w' for 'work'.)
14:12:06 <elliott> Well, you know. Work is all about the GUIs.
14:12:18 <elliott> Since you're a speech recognition researcher, you never do anything valuable like program in a terminal and so on.
14:12:54 <elliott> I see the whole "Do-Not-Track by default thing" has died.
14:13:00 <elliott> (IE and so on.)
14:13:26 <elliott> Seemingly it violates the specification. Sort of.
14:14:01 <fizzie> I vaguely remember "They" had some demands about how Do-Not-Track must user-interfacistically and defaultically behave before they'd agree to actually (pretend to) obey it.
14:14:21 <elliott> "(1) Today we reaffirmed the group consensus that a user agent MUST NOT set a default of DNT:1 or DNT:0, unless the act of selecting that user agent is itself a choice that expresses the user’s preference for privacy. In all cases, a DNT signal MUST be an expression of a user’s preference. []…]"
14:14:33 <fizzie> Oh, right.
14:14:34 <elliott> But you could always just have it be an on-by-default thing in the installer or something.
14:14:42 <elliott> Just like you "choose" to agree with EULAs.
14:14:54 <elliott> (Also s/[]…]/[…]/. [sic] on that.)
14:15:06 <elliott> fizzie: The Do-Not-Track thing is a bit silly. It's like the evil bit.
14:15:07 <fizzie> It can be also on by default if your browser has a privacy theme, because then "that user agent is itself a choice".
14:15:23 <elliott> How did people decide it was a good idea, exactly?
14:15:50 <fizzie> It is a "step toward putting you in control", according to Mozilla.
14:16:13 <elliott> (Don't you just love ad companies?)
14:18:26 <fizzie> EFF's all about Do Not Truck, I've seem mentions in their blag often.
14:19:11 <fizzie> If you set the Do Not Truck header to "1", Google Image search will not return images of trucks, even if they would otherwise match your query. (Not true.)
14:21:26 <elliott> 11:42:20: <fizzie> Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows"
14:21:26 <elliott> 11:42:28: <fizzie> I, uh. Okay.
14:21:27 <elliott> :D
14:22:10 <elliott> 11:49:43: <fizzie> http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization.
14:22:10 <elliott> 11:50:33: <nortti> imo the old was much better
14:22:10 <elliott> Shocking.
14:22:25 <elliott> Gregor: I bet HackEgo still uses bash.
14:24:57 <nortti> `ps
14:25:05 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 272 ? 00:00:00 init \ 274 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 276 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 277 ? 00:00:00 cat
14:25:10 <nortti> `run ps | grep bash
14:25:13 <HackEgo> 276 ? 00:00:00 bash
14:25:22 <nortti> seems to
14:25:44 <nortti> elliott: what shell should HackEgo use then?
14:26:07 <elliott> nortti: You said ash, I think.
14:26:19 <nortti> yes.
14:26:39 <nortti> that or sash bwahahaha
14:27:22 <elliott> 12:29:02: <Vorpal> why would google want to make a font?
14:27:27 <elliott> Chromebooks.
14:27:33 <elliott> (More generally, the Chromium OS thing.)
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14:31:47 <nortti> (If you don't know what it is like to use sash download http://fpaste.dy.fi/oB7/dl That is the better version)
14:32:26 <nortti> that is staticaly linked sash 3.7 with patches I use in my own minidistro
14:33:56 <elliott> 12:57:20: <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right?
14:34:00 <elliott> (It is kind of inconvenient.)
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14:36:10 <elliott> 13:11:26: <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save.
14:36:17 <elliott> Mumble mumble permadeath.
14:36:43 <fizzie> elliott: The FTP client review is, incidentally, only six hours old (was three when I pasted), and written by a "Titus Higginbotham".
14:37:45 <nortti> elliott: why did you say "I bet HackEgo still uses bash." to Gregor?
14:37:53 <elliott> nortti: No reason.
14:38:23 <elliott> 13:28:01: <fizzie> It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones.
14:38:26 <elliott> And they're all impossible.
14:38:28 <elliott> At least for me.
14:38:52 <fizzie> I think one of them was not too bad. But mostly they were horrible.
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14:39:15 <elliott> I might have completed one, I think.
14:39:17 <fizzie> Also rather fanciful. There was a picture of a cat or something.
14:39:27 <elliott> quintopia: Whoa, a *new* spelevator?
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14:40:44 <elliott> 05:56:53: <zzo38> asiekierka_: Did you add the XKCD variation of Deadfish? If so, why?
14:40:50 <elliott> wait, it was not in the original?
14:41:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=10505&oldid=9188 what, he ruined it
14:42:21 <elliott> indeed, asiekierka did add it.
14:42:30 <elliott> probably it should have its own article, then
14:43:29 <elliott> 09:43:46: <Taneb> Gregor, that is getting a Like
14:43:32 <elliott> Taneb: I thought you "deleted".
14:43:41 <Taneb> elliott, I have two accounts
14:43:45 <elliott> Taneb...
14:43:46 <Taneb> One of which is now "deleted"
14:44:03 <Taneb> I made the second when the first one had too many friends to load the chat bar
14:44:24 <elliott> Gregor: "Very cool serendipitous interaction. You should have asked to send the pic to you."
14:44:39 <elliott> "What is this do you think you are Fabio now?"
14:44:44 <elliott> Facebook! I love Facebook.
14:44:50 <elliott> I think I will listen to that Thank You Facebook song later.
14:44:54 <elliott> To show how much I love Facebook.
14:46:45 <elliott> 19:20:08: <kmc> the main clojure guy really Gets It in terms of the relationship between functional and imperative programming
14:47:04 <elliott> kmc: Gets It to the point where its STM implementation just errors out noisily at runtime if you happen to try and do anything "unsafe" in a transaction?
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14:49:32 <nortti> wow. my minidistro compiles userspace in 1m 45s on my machine
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14:54:53 <elliott> 20:56:57: <ion> David Rees and Blackwing Pencils: Artisanal Pencil Sharpening http://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8
14:54:55 <elliott> see http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/
15:02:29 <elliott> 21:26:19: <fizzie> You don't get exp when knocked-out, so Crono spends quite a lot of time unconscious.
15:02:30 <elliott> :D
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15:07:49 <elliott> fizzie: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:51 <elliott> Vorpal: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:53 <elliott> Taneb: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:57 <elliott> shachaf: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:08:07 <Taneb> elliott, what makes you think I've bought it
15:08:13 <elliott> Taneb: Why wouldn't you have?
15:08:15 <elliott> It's the bestest one.
15:08:29 <Taneb> Just spent a lot of money; have little left; already have Amnesia
15:08:55 <elliott> Bastion! Psychonauts!
15:08:58 <elliott> Everyone loves those games.
15:09:09 <elliott> 22:25:38: <fizzie> Hey, it's that IPv6 launch day today. (Well, yesterday already, as seen from here.)
15:09:12 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org is TAKING PART.
15:09:21 <asiekierka> My ISP is not.
15:09:22 <Taneb> Does Humble Bundle accept cash?
15:09:27 <asiekierka> Taneb - not at al!
15:09:32 <Taneb> :(
15:10:13 <elliott> not at al
15:10:19 <elliott> notat al
15:10:23 <elliott> No tat, Al.
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:50: <Vorpal> $ host
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:50: <Vorpal> domain name pointer k.root-servers.net.
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:51: <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
15:11:53 <elliott> nortti: This prefix seems suboptimal.
15:12:43 <nortti> elliott: what do you suggest then?
15:12:59 <elliott> I don't know. There aren't many left.
15:13:05 <elliott> "oonbotti: " would work. :p
15:13:21 <nortti> hmm. is \ used for anything?
15:14:13 <elliott> \o/
15:14:18 <elliott> ... myndzi?
15:14:19 <elliott> Noooooo
15:14:22 <elliott> ^celebrate
15:14:22 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
15:14:24 <elliott> R.I.P.
15:14:26 <Taneb> Pietbot uses ), when it is alive
15:14:35 <Taneb> (I've reserved ) for this channel)
15:14:49 <nortti> elliott: it meant "\ " without the quotation marks
15:15:10 <elliott> I suppose that could work, yes. Ooh, ooh, how about the Euro symbol? :p
15:15:32 <nortti> or £
15:16:02 <nortti> (I have it at AltGr-3)
15:16:07 <elliott> You are not British!
15:17:52 <nortti> or what avout ¤
15:18:14 <elliott> You're not... uh... in international waters?
15:20:04 <nortti> ½ would also be pretty nice
15:20:12 <elliott> œ
15:20:13 <elliott>
15:20:14 <elliott>
15:20:17 <elliott> So many good prefices.
15:20:21 <elliott>
15:20:22 <elliott>
15:20:22 <elliott> ¨
15:20:23 <elliott> ~
15:20:25 <elliott> µ
15:20:26 <nortti> §"
15:20:27 <elliott> ˚
15:20:29 <elliott> «
15:20:31 <elliott> ç®
15:20:33 <elliott> ∑∑∑∑
15:20:35 <elliott> å
15:20:37 <elliott> ¥
15:20:49 <elliott> Oops, that ~ one is ASCII. TOO ASCII.
15:21:04 <nortti> ¡
15:21:20 <elliott> Well, you know what shachaf says.
15:21:24 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
15:21:28 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly Unicode.
15:22:44 <nortti> ñ
15:22:59 <elliott> ¢
15:22:59 <elliott>
15:23:00 <elliott> §
15:23:04 <elliott> ›ÂÏÒ„‰Ï∏
15:23:06 <elliott> Ϙ∏Ø„‰˜∏ØÂ
15:24:40 <elliott> "I am using kaspersky internet security 2012 full version. It is the king of antiviruses."
15:24:50 <nortti> ...
15:30:28 <nortti> #quit
15:30:32 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
15:31:11 <elliott> Add an #esoteric command.
15:31:12 <elliott> :p
15:35:42 -!- oonbotti has joined.
15:35:56 <nortti> $ foo
15:35:59 <nortti> \ foo
15:36:10 <nortti> ' foo
15:36:10 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
15:36:12 <nortti> shit
15:36:15 <nortti> #quit
15:36:15 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
15:37:06 -!- oonbotti has joined.
15:37:10 <nortti> \ foo
15:37:10 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
15:37:22 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZTVrdQ/stackoverflow.com-q-10931271.html
15:37:38 <nortti> \ words
15:37:38 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
15:38:16 <nortti> elliott: what?
15:38:21 <elliott> Ooh, there's another. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10930338/buying-a-so-account (It's identical.)
15:38:23 <elliott> nortti: Yes.
15:39:40 <nortti> someone wants to buy stack overfrow account. but why?
15:39:47 <elliott> For the reps!
15:39:52 <elliott> This is a paragraph.
15:39:53 <elliott> This is a paragraph.
15:39:54 <elliott> This is a paragraph.
15:39:55 <elliott> Thank you
15:40:09 <elliott> Anyway, it even says it in the post! To "start good with the community".
15:40:15 <elliott> Perhaps I'll sell mine.
15:40:23 <nortti> why are the reps so important
15:40:24 <elliott> I'm sure I could make, like, $3.
15:40:31 <elliott> nortti: To start good with the community!
15:40:45 <elliott> (Also you can vote to delete posts and stuff? I'm sure that's important to start good with the community.)
15:45:18 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo
15:45:31 <nortti> ...
15:46:31 <oonbotti> elliott: #esoteric is now implemented by the way
15:46:40 <elliott> Oh dear.
15:47:24 <nortti> what?
15:49:01 <elliott> #esoteric isn't the least common thing to start lines with in #esoteric, I think.
15:49:01 <oonbotti> Nothing here
15:49:10 <elliott> Well, it's accurate.
15:49:49 <nortti> elliott: I can remove that if you want
15:49:59 <elliott> No, it's very accurate.
15:51:08 <nortti> well at least it doesn't post ascii goatse
15:52:17 <elliott> It should!
15:52:26 <nortti> ok. I'll implement that
15:52:32 <elliott> :(
15:53:14 <Taneb> My quest to right unreadable Haskell code has hit a slight hitch
15:53:19 <Taneb> It's unreadable
15:53:21 <elliott> Try wronging it instead.
15:53:28 <nortti> if you don't want it I don't implement it
15:53:32 <Taneb> *write
15:53:36 <Taneb> (I think phonetically)
15:53:43 <elliott> I think ASCII goatse might not be the ideal thing to spam the channel with, no.
15:53:44 <fizzie> elliott: The logo of a nearby driving school has gotten a lot more suggestive since the Internet age: http://www.haaganautokoulu.fi/wp-content/themes/thematic/img/header.jpg
15:54:03 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder what the triangle is.
15:54:20 <Taneb> So, instead of printing the fibonacci sequence, it prints segfaults
15:54:33 <Taneb> And that's what happen when I get confused
15:54:34 <fizzie> Possibly it tries to be a traffic sign, we have many triangular ones.
15:55:02 <elliott> Taneb: Huh?
15:55:11 <elliott> Haskell programs should never segfault unless you use unsafe things like the FFI.
15:55:16 <elliott> You should report a GHC bug.
15:55:19 <Taneb> It uses unsafe things
15:55:29 <elliott> Ooh, then I wanna see.
15:55:29 <elliott> hpaste!
15:55:31 <Taneb> Well, thing
15:55:51 <Taneb> Hold on, let me get it to the thing that doesn't work like it doesn't work
15:56:35 <elliott> (If it's just unsafePerformIO, it still probably shouldn't segfault.)
15:56:38 <nortti> fizzie: :D. On my school there was a band called "Go at sea"
15:56:47 <Taneb> elliott, unsafeCoerce
15:56:53 <elliott> Ah. Well then.
15:57:15 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69662
15:57:38 <nortti> it was pretty funny when whole school starts shouting "Goatsea! Goatsea!"
15:57:39 <Taneb> Most of the unsafeCoerces can be replaced with ids
15:58:42 <elliott> Taneb: That i looks susceptible to the monomorphism restriction.
15:58:47 <elliott> Perhaps give it a type signature.
15:59:00 <elliott> (At the top level, not in the expression, I think.)
15:59:15 <nortti> fizzie: the bands logo has two hand ripping a hole in a cloud
15:59:24 <nortti> *band's
16:01:52 <fizzie> nortti: Heh. I think I've heard Haagan Autokoulu being referred to as "Goatse-autokoulu".
16:02:14 <Taneb> I think pair may be wrong
16:03:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:06:53 <nortti> fizzie: they had to change band's name though. (I suspect one of the teachers ran into goatse.) They renamed it "Meet spin"
16:07:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:09:42 -!- elliott has joined.
16:11:01 <Taneb> zzo38: ping
16:12:06 <Taneb> elliott: I think the problem is, I have no idea what type fibs should be
16:12:11 <Taneb> everyone: brb
16:12:27 <elliott> Taneb: It may very well have no type.
16:12:36 <elliott> When in doubt, try giving it the type "a". :p
16:13:29 <elliott> "Reason for Moderation Work [...] Wants to leave the crowd of normal users and become special member of Stack Overflow with The Diamond Privilege."
16:15:12 <elliott> fizzie: Don't you miss NSQX?
16:15:16 <elliott> I miss NSQX.
16:16:33 <nortti> what? has he stopped
16:18:51 <elliott> He hasn't edited or come here in ~days, at least.
16:18:59 <elliott> Since 2 May, it seems.
16:19:07 <elliott> Also I still have to feature a new language, like, days ago.
16:19:20 <Taneb> Go with eodermdrone
16:19:26 <Taneb> (still brb)
16:21:13 <Taneb> Back
16:22:36 <nortti> elliott: feature HQ9+
16:22:45 <elliott> That's not even a candidate.
16:22:57 <nortti> why?
16:24:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:24:56 <Taneb> BECAUSE I AM ENRAGED
16:25:10 <Taneb> elliott, added top-level type signatures, still segfaults
16:25:44 <Taneb> The only one with a useless type signature was fibs2
16:30:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner).
16:32:16 <nortti> #quit
16:32:17 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
16:32:43 -!- oonbotti has joined.
16:35:16 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
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16:44:47 <oonbotti> `pastefortunes
16:44:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2581
16:48:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:48:54 <Taneb> Hello!
16:51:28 <Taneb> It still doesn't work
16:52:06 <elliott> hi
16:58:06 <zzo38> Taneb: pong
16:58:07 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:59:00 <zzo38> ?messages
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 21h 43m 6s ago: Why is "otherwise" not in Prelude.Generalize? It seems a silly thing to leave out
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 20h 49m 26s ago: What's the point of the application$ rule? The only time it'd get fired, the instance of Function for (i -> o) i o already does it
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 6h 50m 26s ago: Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please?
16:59:38 <zzo38> Taneb: "otherwise" is not useful at all
16:59:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fan Dumb: 2DBoy released the game with no DRM whatsoever because they thought they could trust their audience. Their reward was a 90% pirate rate.
17:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> " -- TV Tropes on World of Goo.
17:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It still feels really weird when people write stupid things on TV Tropes because I've unified it into one 'voice', the same as WP.
17:01:57 <Taneb> zzo38, it makes guards look better than using True
17:02:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have a unified voice for TV Tropes and it *doesn't* typically say stupid things?
17:02:26 <elliott> (Also Wikipedia the Person is the funniest person ever.)
17:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> TV Tropes articles don't usually say stupid things...
17:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, not that stupid.
17:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Also yeah, I love Wikipedia The Person.
17:04:40 <elliott> The best part is that they occasionally break down and start jibbering nonsense.
17:04:51 <elliott> The other best part is that they NEVER LAUGH.
17:05:09 <elliott> Also they keep disclaiming everything they write.
17:05:25 <elliott> "Bill Gates is gay. (I don't have a citation, though.)"
17:05:37 <elliott> "Some people (who? I'm not sure.) say Bill Gates is gay."
17:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> No I prefer how they completely skip around their own presence in the world.
17:06:28 <elliott> "Some people have accused Wikipedia of inaccuracy."
17:06:30 <elliott> ":("
17:07:05 <zzo38> Taneb: I happen to disagree
17:07:24 <Taneb> Okay, it's your library
17:08:20 <Taneb> Next question?
17:10:42 <Taneb> Actually, the third would be the most productive
17:11:40 <zzo38> OK, I will send what it currently is, but even these I might change before next release
17:11:55 <Taneb> This is really so I can figure out an order
17:12:17 <zzo38> The purpose of the "application$" rule is just things I do not completely understand the rewrite rules
17:12:30 <Taneb> I'll trust you on that
17:12:34 <zzo38> Also, if you want to reorder the exports you can do so
17:12:40 -!- aloril has joined.
17:12:46 <Taneb> Yeah, I need to know what's going to be in them first
17:12:55 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/ZTIc
17:13:08 <Taneb> Thanks
17:15:05 <Taneb> Could you explain what Part1 etc do?
17:15:25 -!- monqy has joined.
17:15:26 <zzo38> Taneb: It is a generalization of fst, snd, first, second
17:15:37 <Taneb> Okay
17:15:43 <monqy> @messages?
17:15:44 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
17:15:54 <Taneb> @tell monqy poor monqy hi
17:15:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:16:06 <monqy> @messages
17:16:06 <lambdabot> Taneb said 12s ago: poor monqy hi
17:18:27 <elliott> welcome , monqy
17:20:38 <elliott> monqy: you missed `ansi code fun'
17:20:52 <Taneb> Right, I'm going to write all the things on cards, and order them
17:22:59 <nortti> #help
17:23:00 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
17:24:01 <monqy> #welcome
17:24:06 <monqy> welcome
17:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, needs an Eodermdrome interp.
17:24:11 <elliott> #hello
17:24:18 <elliott> #welcome monqy
17:24:19 <oonbotti> monqy: Welcome to this completely useless channel!
17:24:22 <elliott> hi
17:24:25 <nortti> monqy: #welcome is for #esoteric-en
17:24:30 <monqy> welcome to you too oonboote
17:24:32 <elliott> #welcom-en
17:24:38 <elliott> #velkommen
17:24:43 <monqy> is #esoteric-en a thing
17:24:53 <monqy> is it a good thing
17:24:55 <nortti> monqy: it exists
17:25:03 <monqy> but is it a thing
17:25:47 <elliott> monqy: did you know coppro plays nethack 4 in hugeterm. this was uncovered a few days ago. "things you missed"
17:25:53 <monqy> D:
17:25:54 <elliott> i used hugeterm once!
17:25:58 <elliott> when i started playing nethack a few years ago
17:26:00 <elliott> then i stopped.
17:26:21 <elliott> monqy: ais523 has also said that hugeterm doesn't matter if you have a non-ttyrec recording format that lets others spectate with any terminal size.
17:26:26 <elliott> "giants; felled"
17:27:02 <nortti> elliott: all of oonbottis public (for everyone to use) are listed in #help. commands not listed in #help require you to be listed in .botops
17:27:05 <monqy> but can you watch in "real time" at any size
17:27:13 <elliott> monqy: yes once he gets around to implementing it
17:27:23 <monqy> i dont want hugeterms taking up my whole screen when i spec
17:27:28 <elliott> right
17:27:31 <monqy> well if i can watch in any size when i watch
17:27:34 <monqy> hugeterm doesnt matter to me
17:27:37 <elliott> monqy: it's still wrong!
17:27:40 <monqy> thats really the only reason i hate hugeterm
17:27:51 <elliott> say someone played roguelikes exclusively locally
17:27:53 <elliott> in hugeterm
17:27:58 <elliott> that would stil lbe wrong!
17:28:01 <elliott> *still be
17:28:03 <monqy> it's the locally that's wrong there
17:28:10 <elliott> well ok
17:28:35 <coppro> I play in 139x40
17:28:36 <elliott> it's not AS bad if it doesn't affect other people but
17:28:43 <elliott> if you're going to use a >80x24 terminal might as well just not use a terminal in the first place!
17:29:26 <monqy> why
17:29:27 -!- kmc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:29:43 <elliott> monqy: well, terminals are kind of dumb
17:29:46 <elliott> I'm not sure if you've noticed
17:29:55 <monqy> faketerms are also dumb
17:30:15 <elliott> depends how you define "fake"term
17:30:30 <elliott> I don't think it's unreasonable to have a screen that shows a grid with the elements being unicode characters
17:30:34 <monqy> at least with a terminal i get my beautiful font and can copy text from it !!!!
17:30:36 <elliott> you can make things less termy elsewhere
17:30:43 <elliott> monqy: you can copy text from a good faketerm too!
17:30:50 <elliott> and you could set a font with it etc.
17:30:54 <monqy> and get www. underlined for me
17:30:56 <nortti> what is a faketerm?
17:31:00 <elliott> do you like www. being underlined
17:31:03 <monqy> in crawl krakens make screen a mess
17:31:08 <elliott> that sounds beautiful
17:31:11 <elliott> screenshot it at yr earliest opportunity
17:31:14 <monqy> ok
17:31:26 <monqy> elliott: i make urls into links and the thing i use for that underlines them
17:31:31 <elliott> right
17:31:35 <monqy> havent felt a need to un underline them
17:31:44 <elliott> bad entry vault idea: spell out http://crawl.develz.org/ with dungeon features
17:32:08 <elliott> i guess some monsters, a book, some wands
17:32:10 <elliott> are there any c monsters
17:32:16 <monqy> centaur
17:32:19 <elliott> ah yes
17:32:19 <monqy> yaktaur
17:32:28 <elliott> what about e
17:32:31 <monqy> elf
17:32:33 <elliott> ah yes
17:32:42 <elliott> too bad it'd break the next turn
17:32:47 <monqy> why would it
17:32:53 <elliott> because they'd move
17:32:55 <monqy> oh right the books
17:32:59 <elliott> because the :/. would be movable-onto
17:32:59 <monqy> you could put unseen horrors there
17:33:04 <elliott> good idea!
17:33:09 <monqy> or place the items in walls
17:33:18 <elliott> is that possible
17:33:23 <monqy> if you're ridiculous
17:33:24 <elliott> that's almost as bad as rock worms
17:33:28 <monqy> it's worse
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17:33:35 <elliott> idk rock worms move
17:33:37 <elliott> that's disturbing
17:33:50 <monqy> oh or you could use mimics
17:33:55 <monqy> just'd have to worry about the .
17:33:57 <monqy> and the other .
17:33:58 <elliott> floor mimic
17:34:02 <monqy> perfect
17:34:11 <elliott> entry vault where you're surrounded by inept floor mimics
17:34:13 <monqy> finally a good reason for mimics
17:34:21 <elliott> "a great entry vault"
17:35:30 <elliott> hmm
17:35:39 <elliott> is it possible to get next to the monsters in that entry vault with all the species
17:35:43 -!- kmc has joined.
17:36:24 <monqy> if you dig the grates
17:36:45 <elliott> are they made out of plain rock or something tougher? I forget
17:37:00 <monqy> grates are grates
17:37:15 <elliott> oh there's an actual thing
17:37:32 <monqy> basically transparent rock but you can smite-target through them
17:37:33 <elliott> ok remind me to scum for that entry vault and a D:1 wand of digging/disint sometime
17:37:44 <monqy> you could also grab a rod of ice or something
17:38:17 <elliott> does that have smite-targeting?
17:38:21 <monqy> yeah
17:38:25 <elliott> that would be nice and risk-free
17:38:49 <monqy> you'd want some evo for cloud longevity
17:39:05 <elliott> guess i'll check out the .des, not sure if there's anything expful enough to bother scumming it
17:39:21 <monqy> ghouls probably
17:39:27 <monqy> but they won't go down easily
17:39:38 <elliott> does it matter, if they can't attack you?
17:39:42 <elliott> just set up a macro and spam it for a year
17:39:45 <monqy> maybe if you're a spriggan with dispel and some form of mp regen
17:39:56 <monqy> 10:39:42 <elliott> just set up a macro and spam it for a year
17:39:59 <elliott> oh, because it'll heal faster than you can regen mp?
17:40:01 <monqy> assuming they dont outheal you
17:40:03 <elliott> right
17:40:26 <elliott> this would probably involve too much startscumming for me to bother with
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17:41:00 <monqy> assuming light you'd also have to scum pandoora for rod of destruction [ice] !!
17:41:04 <monqy> or something like that
17:41:12 <elliott> the idea is to do it before leaving D:1
17:41:16 <elliott> so you "breeze through the rest"
17:41:19 <elliott> but I guess diving to Pandoora is probably ok
17:41:27 <monqy> spar; dive to d5
17:41:32 <elliott> more like SpWn
17:41:34 <elliott> for the evo skill
17:41:38 <monqy> what
17:41:43 <monqy> ar has the best evo skill of any background
17:41:46 <monqy> it is the
17:41:47 <monqy> evo class
17:41:50 <elliott> oh
17:41:54 <elliott> i didn't know
17:41:56 <monqy> sp has good evo apt too
17:41:59 <elliott> i guess that works then!!!
17:42:06 <elliott> Wn could theoretically give more though right
17:42:34 <elliott> (is there a way to check those in henzell)
17:42:36 <monqy> idk but ar has a more useful starting kit for diving and is more reliable
17:42:38 <elliott> (the background skills, I mean)
17:42:58 <Taneb> zzo38, you're not exporting (!!!)
17:46:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
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17:55:15 <ion> 5/5, would watch again. http://youtu.be/ertsv-KRnVE
17:55:38 <nortti> #sendmsg #esoteric-en foo
17:56:04 <monqy> #sendmsg #esoteric hello
17:56:17 <ion> #sendmsg #esoteric hi
18:00:08 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:00:31 <nortti> #sendmsg is for botops only
18:01:28 <monqy> am I a botop
18:01:43 <nortti> monqy: botop for oonbotti
18:02:04 <monqy> am I a botop for oonboote
18:02:08 <nortti> if you want to make oonbotti say funny things you can use #echo
18:02:33 <nortti> monqy: yes but you are not in .botops file so you are not for oonbotti
18:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You know...
18:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fairly sure I saw a Nancy Drew game on sale on Steam a while back,
18:03:50 <monqy> #echo hurts norte
18:03:51 <oonbotti> hurts norte
18:04:08 <monqy> oonbot no
18:04:23 <elliott> #echo yes
18:04:24 <oonbotti> yes
18:04:34 <elliott> look at what you have done, monqy
18:07:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:08:24 <elliott> #echo hi
18:08:25 <oonbotti> hi
18:11:47 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:14:45 <Taneb> Hello
18:16:31 <elliott> eh;llo
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18:28:34 <elliott> chirp
18:28:35 <Taneb> You know, the word "esoteric" is related to the word "in"
18:28:37 <elliott> wow
18:28:41 <elliott> we broke the silence
18:28:42 <elliott> simultaneously
18:28:49 <Taneb> :D
18:29:03 <elliott> why does that always happen to me
18:29:10 <elliott> there must be some like
18:29:13 <elliott> standard conversational rhythm
18:29:14 <elliott> that we all adhere to
18:29:19 <elliott> that tells us when to break the silence
18:29:19 <Taneb> Because Phantom_Hoover is right and we are the same person?
18:32:20 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:33:07 <oklopol> you already live in the same town, if you also happened to be the same person, personally i would get a bit suspicious.
18:33:19 -!- shachaf has joined.
18:34:36 <Taneb> oklopol, shut up, you're the same person as oklofok
18:34:53 <Taneb> Me and elliott are allowed to be the same person if we want,
18:35:35 <oklopol> same person, yes
18:35:41 <oklopol> same town, no diddly doo
18:36:13 <Taneb> And you live in Finland! That's like, the same town as half the channel!
18:36:21 <Taneb> `? Finland
18:36:24 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
18:36:31 <Taneb> `? Hexham
18:36:34 <HackEgo> Hexham? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:36:51 <elliott> we don't have an entry on hexham? seriously?
18:36:55 <Taneb> We used to
18:37:38 <Taneb> `learn Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
18:37:40 <elliott> what happened to it?
18:37:41 <HackEgo> I knew that.
18:37:47 <Taneb> I don't know
18:38:28 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:41:18 <Taneb> elliott, can you look at http://sprunge.us/HQIN?haskell again?
18:41:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:42:09 <elliott> Taneb: I really don't know, but I suspect it's the unsafeCoerce that's messing it up. :p
18:42:22 <Taneb> Yes, I presume so.
18:42:43 <Taneb> My one that computed powers worked fine, but that didn't have any loops?
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18:55:05 <zzo38> Taneb: I am exporting (!!!) although the export list is in a messy order. Feel free to change the order of the export list to whatever you want
18:55:23 <Taneb> zzo38, ah, didn't spot it
18:55:34 <elliott> -Fixed a bug that sometimes caused fleeing monkeys to leap into lava if the player was fire-immune, or into chasms if the player was levitating.
18:55:58 <monqy> i should try this new version sometime
18:57:20 <elliott> monqy: are you telling me you don't like your monkeys to leap into lava or chasms
18:57:42 <elliott> the changes seem "pretty minor" (http://brogue.createforumhosting.com/announcing-brogue-v1-6-3-t384.html)
18:58:02 <elliott> "I'm glad some developers are capable of listening to their players and scaling back OOD nonsense, as opposed to declaring it "interesting" and making it even worse." hmm, this person in /r/roguelikes seems bitter
19:00:46 <Sgeo> *sigh*
19:00:52 <Sgeo> Having someone tell me that Clojure is lazy
19:00:59 <Sgeo> Person has no Haskell experience
19:01:40 <mroman> Clojure probably has some lazy structures like lists?
19:01:50 <kmc> i don't think clojure has implicit laziness
19:02:00 <kmc> but any language with closures can emulate laziness easily
19:02:06 <Sgeo> mroman, correct
19:02:18 <elliott> I think "implicit laziness" is a silly term, because "explicit laziness" is just "any language with closures", like you said.
19:02:36 <elliott> If you have to rewrite every data structure to get "lazy" effects, it's useless, so I'd rather just call "implicit laziness" "laziness".
19:02:37 <kmc> well, you need closures + mutation to get laziness as opposed to just non-strict semantics
19:02:45 <elliott> (Or even better, "non-strictness". But that's pedantic.)
19:03:07 <elliott> kmc: Sure, but that isn't really what people think of when talking about that :)
19:04:17 <kmc> i think it's interesting/funny you can't implement laziness in a strict pure functional language but you can in an impure one
19:04:50 <elliott> Well, I am not sure about "can't".
19:04:55 <elliott> You can do it, it'll just be more indirect.
19:04:59 <kmc> oh?
19:05:04 <elliott> Sure.
19:05:11 <elliott> evaluate world thunk (\world' thunkValue -> ...)
19:05:16 <elliott> Where world is your cache of thunk values, and so on.
19:05:34 <elliott> "Implementing laziness" is already indirect emulation, it just takes more of it in a pure language.
19:05:57 <Taneb> Is it possible to truly emulate laziness in a language that is already lazy?
19:06:37 <Taneb> And with that bombshell, goodnight!
19:06:41 <Taneb> (I have a book)
19:06:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:18:14 <elliott> mroman: um.
19:18:22 <elliott> mroman: you have a very nonstandard definition of "reverse".
19:20:38 <Phantom__Hoover> hey fizzie
19:20:44 <Phantom__Hoover> you're good at finding things on the internet
19:21:55 <Phantom__Hoover> find me a temperature monitor that can do an overlay for fullscreen applications that isn't rivatuner (it's a complete mess and the documentation is inconsistent with what turns up on the screen)
19:22:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, linux or windows?
19:22:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Windows.
19:22:41 <Vorpal> eh, no idea then
19:26:14 <Phantom__Hoover> (I keep getting what may or may not be GPU overheats when playing Human Revolution.)
19:27:28 <Sgeo> http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/repeatedly
19:27:31 <Sgeo> Going to puke
19:27:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: How did you rule out CPU overheats?
19:27:47 <Phantom__Hoover> I said "may or may not"!
19:27:49 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with that?
19:27:50 <Sgeo> "Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and
19:27:51 <Sgeo> returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls
19:27:51 <Sgeo> to it"
19:28:02 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with that?
19:28:04 <Sgeo> The reliance on side-effects to do interesting things
19:28:22 <elliott> Yes, Clojure is an impure language. Are you surprised?
19:28:53 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, and anyway ruling out either would require an overlayable temperature monitor.
19:33:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait if it was a CPU overheat why would it only happen in fullscreen.
19:38:07 <elliott> bigger pixels
19:38:29 <Phantom__Hoover> oh
19:45:09 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:46:38 <mroman> elliott: How should I formulate it then?
19:51:14 * Sgeo wonders if X-Setup is the tool he remembers from when he was younger
19:55:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
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19:56:51 <oerjan> 13:45:11: <elliott> 00:45:25: <oerjan> CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME
19:56:51 <oerjan> 13:45:19: <elliott> i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway.
19:57:05 <oerjan> (1) i was paraphrasing zzo38 (2) it actually was visible in norway a bit after midnight, modulo clouds
19:57:28 <oerjan> and much of the rest of europe, iirc that wp map
19:58:47 <oerjan> in fact i think there maybe was a short time after about 6 am when i could have seen it
19:59:27 <oerjan> (it was cloudy most of the night, but a very sunny day)
20:00:11 <oerjan> and by night i mean before 6 am more or less, the sun is up earlier than that
20:01:00 <oonbotti> elliott: it was visible in northern europe
20:01:32 <olsner> it's... visible everywhere that has sunlight at some point during the transit?
20:01:41 <oerjan> olsner: you'd think :P
20:02:00 <olsner> think? I don't think I can think
20:02:15 <oerjan> well technically there is probably somewhere that only got the part of the sun disk where venus wasn't...
20:03:16 <oonbotti> I was going to look at it at 4:29 but I forgot to set the alarm ...
20:03:38 <zzo38> What is the calculation for Venus transit being visible?
20:03:44 <olsner> I wasn't out of bed until noon anyway
20:04:59 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:05:17 <mroman> bffb is part of the languages which are palindromic turing complete ;D
20:05:24 <oerjan> elliott is such a good listener.
20:05:32 <oerjan> also my l key is getting uppity
20:05:46 <zzo38> Apparent diameter?
20:06:10 <mroman> *cally
20:06:58 * oerjan thinks there is probably a crumb under it
20:07:16 <calamari> why not just bfb?
20:07:33 <oonbotti> should I stop sending messages throught my bot?
20:07:45 <oerjan> WHO SAID THAT
20:07:51 <mroman> because brainfuck is usually bf?
20:07:57 <nortti> oerjan: I
20:08:08 -!- elliott has joined.
20:08:28 <oerjan> i think nortti is a bot anyway, same last 3 letters in finish
20:08:31 <oerjan> *finnish
20:08:49 <nortti> oerjan: I didn't notice that
20:09:16 <nortti> and no. I am not a bot
20:09:24 <elliott> i am
20:09:27 <oerjan> you _would_ say that, wouldn't you.
20:09:53 <calamari> mroman: I'm saying bfb vs bffb.. both are palindromes
20:10:01 <mroman> ok.
20:10:07 <oerjan> yeah, elliott is just clever enough to switch the letters around a bit
20:10:19 <elliott> mroman: so about bffb
20:10:20 <oerjan> elliott: also read logs
20:10:25 <elliott> [-] is not a palindrome
20:10:26 <elliott> neither is [>]
20:10:29 <elliott> so wtf is your example abou
20:10:29 <elliott> t
20:11:28 <oerjan> obviously visually mirrored palindromes should count in some way
20:11:38 <shachaf> [-] isn't a palindrome?
20:11:55 <shachaf> It's a "mirror palindrome"
20:12:01 <shachaf> Which is even better than the regular kind.
20:12:13 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you should call yourself "fungotti"?
20:12:15 <fungot> fizzie: what have i done wrong here?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord) and 600 bytes fnord i think.
20:13:17 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BFFB&action=historysubmit&diff=32714&oldid=32712 <- there. happy ;)?
20:13:29 <oerjan> sadly http://paste.lisp.org/display/fnord does not exist
20:13:33 <olsner> I read that as fizzie wanting help with "600 bytes fnord" of lisp code
20:14:05 <shachaf> elliott: You should read/see _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_!
20:16:53 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, 600 bytes*fnord.
20:17:13 <oonbotti> irssi's alias system is pretty nice. I can just type /obmsg channel text instead of /msg -freenode oonbotti #sendmsg channel text
20:17:13 <Phantom__Hoover> (bytes*fnord is the integral of bytes over fnord.()
20:18:00 <nortti> fungot: are you a bot?
20:18:01 <fungot> nortti: fnord. fnord että fnord se mulle moi vai vihaako se mua. lol.)
20:18:10 <nortti> :P
20:18:41 <nortti> ^help
20:18:42 <oerjan> how clever to answer in the secret finnish code
20:18:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:18:52 <olsner> is fungot in finnish mode now?
20:18:53 <fungot> olsner: that explains it
20:19:01 <olsner> indeed it does
20:19:05 <nortti> ^style help
20:19:06 <fungot> Not found.
20:19:11 <nortti> ^style finnish
20:19:12 <fungot> Not found.
20:19:18 <nortti> ^style Finnish
20:19:19 <fungot> Not found.
20:19:27 <oerjan> ^style
20:19:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:19:36 <nortti> ^style ff7
20:19:37 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
20:20:00 <nortti> fungot: what do you have to say?
20:20:01 <fungot> nortti: magic change! we must set a trap... heh, heh... steel! get out. you haven't done anything.
20:20:02 <oerjan> fungot: is that the one which the sword alone cannot stop?
20:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: the one laughing last! everyone is here...? what if she meant. i don't care what the shinra train? what are you!!
20:20:05 <olsner> fungot fantasy
20:20:06 <fungot> olsner: we know you're here!? i tell you all the workings of the cetra to leave the rest to ol' cid! we can use a tent and/ or select *save*.
20:20:25 <nortti> ^style irc*
20:20:26 <fungot> Not found.
20:20:29 <nortti> ^style irc
20:20:30 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:20:40 <olsner> I think the star was there to indicate the currently selected style
20:20:55 <nortti> fungot: what do you find in the logs?
20:20:56 <fungot> nortti: if you really need to go to
20:20:57 <oerjan> olsner is getting pretty good with that thar thinking
20:21:24 <olsner> oerjan: I think I can pretend to think
20:21:41 <nortti> olsner: pretend to think
20:21:53 <oerjan> Does it please you to think you can pretend to think?
20:22:12 <nortti> ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:22:13 <fungot> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:22:17 <olsner> nortti: I think you something something fungot
20:22:18 <fungot> olsner: not /forum, apparently!
20:22:44 <nortti> not eliza
20:23:15 <nortti> but actually thinking about it having eliza/doctor bot would be fun
20:23:24 <olsner> not that fun
20:23:36 <olsner> at least not *that* fun
20:25:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:27:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:30:52 <nortti> #quit
20:30:53 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
20:34:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: wading | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:34:30 -!- jix has joined.
20:41:17 -!- oonbotti has joined.
20:41:29 <nortti> now with eliza
20:42:07 <nortti> #eliza hello
20:42:08 <oonbotti> Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:42:22 <nortti> #eliza Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:42:22 <oonbotti> Hello, how are you feeling today?
20:42:34 <nortti> #eliza Hello, how are you feeling today?
20:42:35 <oonbotti> Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:42:47 <Vorpal> $ WORDS
20:42:51 <Vorpal> you removed that?
20:42:55 <Vorpal> oh well
20:43:10 <nortti> Vorpal: new commandchar is \
20:43:13 <Vorpal> nortti, what language is the bot itself written in?
20:43:20 <nortti> Vorpal: python
20:43:41 <Vorpal> hm I should use ¥ as a command char if I write a bot
20:43:56 <Vorpal> since I keep hitting that instead of $ on this keyboard
20:44:11 <Vorpal> so altgr-6 rather than altgr-4
20:44:16 <olsner> python? blub blub
20:44:22 <nortti> ?
20:44:39 * oerjan suggests the command prefix "hi"
20:44:59 <olsner> :)
20:45:02 <Vorpal> hm didn't someone write an implementation of some language in apache rewrites and it was faster than the reference implementation in python?
20:45:12 <Vorpal> I forgot who did it and what language it was about
20:45:16 <olsner> which would result in us wading in hi, appropriately enough
20:45:21 <olsner> or topically enough?
20:45:49 -!- Vorpal has set topic: wading in hi | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:45:55 <nortti> my bot consists of 4 files: ircbot.py, botcmd.py, sforth.py and eliza.py
20:45:55 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, I did one of thue... but IIRC they were approximately the same speed in the end
20:46:13 <Vorpal> olsner, oh, where did the "faster" bit come from then?
20:46:42 <olsner> well, I just don't recall at all what the exact result was, if I said faster it should've been faster or I'd have been lying
20:46:53 <Vorpal> hm
20:47:16 <nortti> #quit
20:47:16 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
20:48:57 -!- oonbotti has joined.
20:49:09 -!- jix has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:49:22 <nortti> oonbotti: here again?
20:49:22 <oonbotti> Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
20:49:27 -!- jix has joined.
20:49:36 -!- Zuu has left.
20:49:45 <Vorpal> eliza is boring
20:50:09 <Vorpal> \ WORDS
20:50:09 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
20:50:27 <nortti> Vorpal: get me better AI with pytho implementation
20:50:31 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:50:34 <Vorpal> eh
20:50:38 <Sgeo> Is Clojure often used in a work environment?
20:50:44 <Vorpal> nortti, how do you define something like a loop using those words?
20:50:49 <Vorpal> I'm completely lost
20:50:53 <Sgeo> If so, that means I could learn an actually-decent job-relevant language
20:50:54 <olsner> Sgeo: it is in a Clojure work environment
20:51:01 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't. it usn't nearly complete
20:51:09 <Vorpal> right
20:51:16 <Sgeo> But I don't want to learn Java
20:51:21 <olsner> any and all languages should be job-relevant, for the kind of job you want to be having
20:51:24 <Sgeo> Although I know the basics of classes and interfaces
20:51:28 <olsner> (except python and ant)
20:51:36 -!- myndzi has joined.
20:52:32 <nortti> Vorpal: only differences from yesterday are addition of 2DUP and ROT and implemeting MOD in forth
20:52:42 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm, I don't seem to have put the "benchmark" results in writing anywhere on like my blog either
20:53:02 -!- zzo38 has left.
20:53:58 <Vorpal> nortti, I think you need HERE, POSTPONE, DOES>, IMMEDIATE right?
20:54:13 <Vorpal> err and something that ends up in a JMP I guess
20:54:21 <Vorpal> olsner, hm
20:54:39 <Vorpal> olsner, speaking of ant, what about maven?
20:54:46 <Vorpal> I have heard of it, never used it
20:54:56 <Vorpal> when I used java I mostly only used eclipse
20:54:56 <olsner> Vorpal: like ant, but with more xml, I think
20:55:03 <Vorpal> and let that do whatever the hell it wants
20:55:13 <Vorpal> olsner, does eclipse use ant?
20:55:50 <olsner> I think eclipse can if you want to (otoh, why on earth would anyone?), but eclipse mostly does everything its own way
20:55:57 <Vorpal> hm in the project I have here it seems to be invoking android SDK tools rather, so I guess that is nothing like the standard build setup
20:56:17 <Vorpal> oh well, I don't have any non-android projects handy
20:56:50 <Vorpal> (and why would I use eclipse if I wasn't developing for android? NetBeans crashes far less often!)
20:57:29 <Vorpal> olsner, btw it is amusing but eclipse on windows is far less stable than on linux
20:57:50 <olsner> you could e.g. use vim... the android tools kind of push you into using ant for all Java parts of the build though
20:57:53 <Vorpal> at least when working on android projects
20:58:09 <Vorpal> eh I need a GUI layout designing tool :P
20:58:15 <Vorpal> the netbeans support for android lacks that
20:58:27 <Vorpal> so me
20:58:28 <Vorpal> meh*
20:58:54 <olsner> you can write the layouts in XML too
20:59:04 <olsner> using $EDITOR
20:59:07 <Vorpal> olsner, yes but that would be much more painful
20:59:11 <Vorpal> it would involve writing XML
20:59:14 <olsner> true
21:00:18 <Vorpal> eclipse on windows just like to randomly bug out in strange ways... Usually restarting it helps. Things like showing incorrect build errors in the list but not in the file (or vice versa) and no at all errors in that file after restarting eclipse.
21:00:35 <Vorpal> or just null pointer exception in eclipse itself
21:01:05 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway, so far I will take a crashing eclipse over writing XML manually
21:01:26 <Vorpal> but I wonder what working with the NDK will be like.
21:01:28 <Vorpal> if I need it
21:01:35 <Vorpal> I hope not, it seems painful to setup
21:02:13 <olsner> it was possible to get it working magically with eclipse's CDT, but unfortunately I have no memory of how difficult it was to get working in the first place
21:02:38 <Vorpal> CDT?
21:02:42 <olsner> you can even do on-device debugging with that stuff ... once you get it working :)
21:02:43 <Vorpal> oh the C environment
21:02:44 <Vorpal> right
21:03:05 <Vorpal> olsner, you should have written a guide for yourself. I always do that when I'm doing messy embedded stuff
21:03:25 <Vorpal> like getting the environment for developing native code for RCX setup
21:03:44 <Vorpal> that was a PAIN, had to compile old native gcc and use it to compile old cross compiler gcc
21:03:48 <Sgeo> Why does Freenode's webchat have a captcha?
21:03:48 <Vorpal> and lots of patches
21:03:54 <Sgeo> Any bot could just connect directly
21:04:01 <Vorpal> (the target I needed was dropped in GCC 4)
21:04:03 <nortti> yay. I got my c compiler to parse throught itself
21:04:16 <olsner> well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal
21:04:17 <Vorpal> nortti, you wrote your own C compiler?
21:04:18 <nortti> Vorpal: what target did you need?
21:04:29 <Vorpal> nortti, trying to remember, h8300-coff iirc
21:04:33 <Vorpal> or something weird like that
21:04:33 <elliott> Sgeo: csrf, presumably
21:04:39 <Vorpal> nortti, the issue was the coff bit
21:04:39 <elliott> or maybe not.
21:04:40 <elliott> who knows.
21:04:55 <Vorpal> nortti, so old binutils too iirc
21:04:56 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. I am aiming for under 64kB binary size when ran on elks
21:04:59 <olsner> and the eclipse stuff mostly set up the android-like build system in such a way that you can build it outside eclipse
21:05:07 <Vorpal> nortti, oh so not your own parser :P
21:05:20 <Vorpal> or hm?
21:05:32 <nortti> Vorpal: I also wrote my own parser
21:05:33 <Vorpal> the issue with writing a C compiler is the bloody parser
21:05:40 <Vorpal> okay, now I'm impressed
21:05:56 <olsner> hmm, or maybe I just recreated the android project files from scratch on my other computer... it wasn't a terribly complicated project, so that would've worked too
21:06:12 <nortti> Vorpal: well it chockes on K&R style function definitions
21:06:24 <Vorpal> <olsner> well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal <-- well I need the thing to work on linux and windows. I can't work exclusively on linux. So that would make the NDK even more painful I bet
21:07:19 <Vorpal> doing just java development is easy enough though
21:07:46 <olsner> android on windows is just like android on linux, but you add cygwin
21:08:04 <Vorpal> nortti, I assume you target C11?
21:08:08 <Vorpal> or C99 at least
21:08:13 <olsner> (and pain, of course, but that's what happens when you develop on windows)
21:08:13 <Vorpal> so who would need K&R
21:08:27 <nortti> Vorpal: I tried to use yacc and lex but after yacc threw errors on even example code I said fuck it and wrote my own on C. my compiler only has parser currently so it isn't really that usefull. and no. I target c90
21:08:28 <pikhq_> olsner: Writing C for Android is also pain, so.
21:08:36 <Vorpal> olsner, well it is not me as such working on windows, I'm not the only one working on this project
21:08:41 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt we will need the NDK
21:08:46 <kmc> C for Android is not bad
21:08:52 <kmc> but don't expect it to be a POSIX system
21:09:02 <nortti> I've heard that bionic libc is bad
21:09:03 <pikhq_> Or an ISO C system.
21:09:12 <kmc> how does it deviate from ISO C?
21:09:16 <Vorpal> indeed, all we might potentially need is C for heavy number crunching
21:09:31 <Vorpal> it is kind of real time, and would involve threading too so hm
21:09:33 <olsner> heavy number crunching on Android
21:09:33 <nortti> kmc: libc is bit broken
21:09:46 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm doing indoor positioning using WLAN.
21:09:53 <Vorpal> olsner, no way around it
21:10:20 <olsner> just do it in the cloud
21:10:42 <pikhq_> kmc: libm, wchar_t...
21:11:31 <nortti> Vorpal: I am aiming to replace bcc after I found out it is too big to run on ELKS
21:11:42 <Vorpal> nortti, ELKS being?
21:11:53 <Vorpal> olsner, 1) lag (yes really, we tested this! On a moving user, the lag from the round trip is noticeable) 2) connection issues would kill it (you might not be connected to the WLAN in question, you could use mobile data)
21:12:10 <Vorpal> and mobile coverage might be poor in some areas where this could be used
21:12:14 <nortti> Vorpal: Embeddable Linux Kernel Subser (basicaly old linux kernel on intel 8086)
21:12:19 <nortti> *Subset
21:12:23 <Vorpal> heh
21:12:35 * olsner goes back to finding that hello world in brainfuck I used to benchmark that brainfuck in thue interpreter as interpreted by the two thue implementations
21:12:41 <Vorpal> nortti, what is it usually compiled with?
21:12:53 <nortti> Vorpal: bcc
21:12:55 <kmc> ah yes, the lack of useful wchar_t is annoying
21:12:59 <kmc> even though wchar_t is broken on principle
21:13:02 <Vorpal> nortti, then how can it be too large?
21:13:05 <kmc> i think that's fixed in latest NDK
21:13:24 <Vorpal> kmc, people uses wchar_t?
21:13:24 <Vorpal> what
21:13:25 <pikhq_> Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it.
21:13:39 <nortti> Vorpal: you can't build anything on ELKS host but bcc has ELKS target
21:13:42 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Used extensively in Win32, actually.
21:13:43 <Vorpal> kmc, btw, what about that new fancy renderscript thing I saw in the SDK docs...
21:13:48 <Vorpal> I haven't tried it yet
21:13:59 <Vorpal> nortti, ah
21:14:07 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Because the only UTF Microsoft supports is UTF-16.
21:14:20 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but how does it handle chars that need surrogate pairs?
21:14:25 <pikhq_> And wchar_t on Win32 is 16 bit.
21:14:29 <pikhq_> Poorly.
21:14:31 <Vorpal> iirc wchar_t is fixed size?
21:14:37 <olsner> despite all your complaining, the libc and C on Android is overall among the most sane you can find on a mobile platform
21:14:53 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anything less than UCS4 and you need to handle variable size chars!
21:15:05 <pikhq_> Either programs simply don't make the assumption that wchar_t is actually fixed with, or it's actually UCS-2.
21:15:23 <Vorpal> olsner, the java environment on Android isn't that bad. Btw what about C# on Windows Phone?
21:15:27 <pikhq_> olsner: Yes, but the only alternatives in use are glibc and uclibc.
21:15:39 <Vorpal> C# in general isn't all that bad, about as bad/good as Java IMO
21:15:46 <pikhq_> olsner: This is like saying "for all your complaining, getting hit in the nuts is much less bad than getting shot in the head."
21:15:53 <nortti> olsner: well it is pretty good for mobile platform but not stardard compliant. It is based on old BSD code
21:16:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Also, anything *in general* you need to handle variable size chars.
21:16:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, C# has LINQ
21:16:10 <Sgeo> That alone makes it better than Java
21:16:14 <elliott> 22:13 <pikhq_> Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it.
21:16:15 <elliott> doesn't it?
21:16:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you don't have to use LINQ
21:16:20 <Vorpal> oh right, you like that? huh
21:16:26 <elliott> it's not like wchar_t is very common
21:16:32 <Sgeo> It's a touch of functional programming
21:16:38 <Vorpal> well sure
21:16:43 <pikhq_> The more egregious omissions are in POSIX.
21:16:55 <pikhq_> Such as largely broken pthreads.
21:17:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm but there are native Linux programs below. I seen them from the adb shell prompt
21:17:20 <Vorpal> so how could they get away with that
21:17:20 <elliott> Vorpal: there's nothing wrong with linq
21:17:28 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They wrote their own userspace.
21:17:47 <pikhq_> Which also sucks.
21:18:02 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough, I only really used it to wrap SQL, and for that it is often just an annoying broken abstraction (sure /when/ it works it is nice, but often it doesn't do what I want)
21:18:08 <nortti> also does anyone know whose idea was to make android toolbox so horrible
21:18:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, heh, I thought it was busybox
21:18:27 <Vorpal> oh well
21:18:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Nope, they have a no-GPL-in-userspace policy.
21:18:44 <Vorpal> ah I see
21:18:56 <nortti> Vorpal: they created their own broken clone of busybox called android toolbox
21:19:13 <Vorpal> well that explains why some of the commands seem unusually limited in terms of flags
21:19:20 <Vorpal> even more some than in busybox
21:19:23 <Vorpal> so*
21:20:09 <nortti> I hope that they would eventualy replace that with toybox
21:20:15 <Vorpal> btw, does anyone actually use Windows Phone?
21:20:27 <Vorpal> nortti, toybox?
21:20:36 <Vorpal> what an utterly ungooglable name
21:20:51 <nortti> Vorpal: Rob Landley's new project. google linux toybox
21:20:58 <olsner> Vorpal: I've seen one person with a windows phone phone
21:21:00 <Vorpal> hm
21:21:11 <Vorpal> hm
21:21:35 <Vorpal> olsner, same actually. And that guy was evaluating the user experience on different mobile operating systems
21:21:41 <Vorpal> so that doesn't really count
21:21:57 <elliott> nortti: FSVO new.
21:22:09 <elliott> (Values equal to 2006.)
21:22:17 <nortti> FSVO?
21:22:24 <Vorpal> nortti, "September 7, 2006 - Project launched, first commit to mercurial archive."
21:22:29 <Vorpal> I guess elliott means that
21:22:30 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fsvo
21:22:47 <Vorpal> oh he asked what it meant: For some values of
21:22:49 <Vorpal> nortti, ^
21:23:45 <nortti> elliott: well I usually refer to busybox as Landley's old project and to toybox as Landley's new project
21:23:48 <Vorpal> hm what is GCC C11 support like I wonder
21:26:37 <nortti> Vorpal: I use toybox commands in place of busybox commands when I can (basicaly everything that is compiled with default config except df (no -h), tail (no -number that tazpkg needs), head (look at tail) and ls (no -h, no color coding))
21:28:29 <Vorpal> nortti, why?
21:28:36 <Vorpal> what do you have against busybox?
21:29:12 <Vorpal> also I use a bloated GNU userland :P (I love my ls & grep --color=auto ;)
21:29:35 <pikhq_> And 24k /bin/true.
21:29:50 <nortti> Vorpal: because I can
21:29:55 <Gregor> pikhq_: How will my 3TB hard disk cope? D-8
21:30:07 <Vorpal> nortti, right, but is there any advantage to toybox compared to bb?
21:30:23 <Vorpal> $ du -bsh /bin/true
21:30:23 <Vorpal> 35K/bin/true
21:30:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, You are wrong
21:30:29 <nortti> Vorpal: smaller, cleaner aproach, BSD style license
21:30:31 <Vorpal> it is 35K
21:30:42 <pikhq_> Gregor: I'm sorry, that has no business being larger than the smallest possible binary.
21:30:55 <pikhq_> Gregor: Like, really, int main(){return 0;}
21:31:07 <elliott> i remember when i cared about the size of the true binary
21:31:09 <pikhq_> When you make *that* that large...
21:31:10 <elliott> ha
21:31:12 <elliott> ha ha ha
21:31:13 <elliott> me
21:31:16 <elliott> past me, I mean
21:31:29 <olsner> argh, it's broken
21:31:30 <kmc> /bin/true --help
21:31:33 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you are doing embedded development there really isn't much of a reason to care
21:31:34 <Gregor> pikhq_: Dude, I want true --help in Swahili.
21:31:40 <pikhq_> It's really a statement of how much *friggin' terrible code* there is out there.
21:31:41 <olsner> or maybe I've forgotten the magic incantation to make it go
21:32:03 <Vorpal> olsner, what is broken?
21:32:12 <olsner> the rewrite stuff
21:32:16 <Vorpal> ouch
21:32:28 <nortti> my true is 0kB
21:32:49 <olsner> afaict it's not actually doing almost anything of the interpretation that it should be doing
21:34:06 <nortti> my /bin/true is 7 bytes
21:34:43 <Vorpal> nortti, the disk block size being what?
21:34:59 <nortti> Vorpal: I used ls -lh
21:35:14 <Vorpal> nortti, yes but on a normal file system it will still take 4 KB
21:35:15 <pikhq_> "exit 0"?
21:35:16 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:35:16 <olsner> Vorpal: but the python thing is still running after 15 minutes
21:35:23 <Vorpal> olsner, heh
21:35:33 <Vorpal> olsner, what program where you running in it?
21:35:49 <nortti> Vorpal: du -ach says both are 0 bytes
21:36:10 -!- jix has joined.
21:36:15 <olsner> python > thue > brainfuck > hello world
21:37:00 <nortti> Vorpal: my ~/bin/true was generated with touch ~/bin/true; chmod 755 ~/bin/true and my /bin/true is symbolic link
21:37:35 <Vorpal> nortti, okay, and what?
21:37:58 <olsner> vs mod_rewrite-thue > brainfuck > hello world ... which if you think about it is not entirely fair because the thue program is actually compiled into mod_rewrite rules rather than being interpreted
21:38:06 <nortti> Vorpal: why did you say what?
21:38:10 <Vorpal> olsner, heh
21:38:18 <Vorpal> nortti, what is your point?
21:38:53 <nortti> Vorpal: that my true really uses only the disk space of i-node
21:39:18 <olsner> hmm, come to think of it the thue to mod_rewrite compiler could be made self-hosting quite easily
21:39:30 <nortti> why?
21:39:49 <nortti> self hosting thue... do want
21:39:50 <Vorpal> nortti, but the symlink must point somewhere
21:40:07 <Vorpal> nortti, and that file must take more than an inode
21:40:14 <Vorpal> or be useless
21:40:20 <olsner> nortti: well, the compiler is a fairly simple set of string rewrite rules, could be written in anything
21:40:20 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. ths
21:40:26 <Vorpal> nortti, hm?
21:40:28 <olsner> ... but it's currently written in sed for convenience
21:40:54 <nortti> -s+at is true for /bin/true but not for ~/bin/true which is just empty file
21:41:13 <Vorpal> linux will run an empty file?
21:41:14 <Vorpal> really?
21:41:28 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. It is treated as shell script
21:41:28 <Vorpal> well that is strange
21:41:50 <Vorpal> nortti, well then, the memory overhead is much worse than with a real true. You load the entire sh!
21:41:54 <Vorpal> shame on you
21:41:58 <nortti> actually old unixes used empty file as /bin/true
21:42:06 <Vorpal> THINK OF THE RAM!
21:42:15 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but my executable is 0b :P
21:42:29 <Vorpal> nortti, but that doesn't matter. Disks are WAY larger than the RAM
21:42:33 <Vorpal> usually at least
21:42:57 <Vorpal> sure .text and .rodata are shared, but a shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too
21:43:10 <nortti> Vorpal: my sh is busybox, my /bin/true is busybox. I can't see how it would load more to memory
21:43:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Correction, a *GNU* shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too. :)
21:43:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, my /bin/sh is dash iirc
21:44:04 <Vorpal> yeah
21:44:05 <Vorpal> [25] .data PROGBITS 0000000000618300 00018300 00000200 0 WA 0 0 32
21:44:15 <Vorpal> that is MUCH more than a simple /bin/true would have
21:44:21 <Vorpal> (it would have zero)
21:44:26 <Vorpal> [26] .bss NOBITS 0000000000618500 00018500 00002bd0 0 WA 0 0 32
21:44:36 <pikhq_> A glibc-linked /bin/true pulls in rather a lot more.
21:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, indeed, but why would it need to be that
21:45:22 <pikhq_> 1559742 18024 19184 1596950 185e16 /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so
21:45:52 <pikhq_> All that gets mapped in if you dynamic link a program...
21:45:58 <Sgeo> I'm starting to wonder if Clojure might be a sufficiently good language for me to be happy, that could also be directly career relevant
21:46:16 <Vorpal> anyway, the point is moot on a non-embedded system. You have more than enough RAM and disk space usually. This system I'm typing on is a laptop with 2 GB RAM and 250 GB disk. And I'm not worried. Even less so on my desktop with a total of 4 TB disk iirc (this is split by dual booting and RAID 1 though, so 1 TB in practise for linux) and 16 GB RAM
21:46:47 <Vorpal> actually more than 4 TB, I forgot my SSD
21:46:58 <nortti> ok. now I use toybox true which loads 83kB toybox to memory instead of 540kB busybox
21:47:01 <pikhq_> And cache?
21:47:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, on my desktop or laptop?
21:47:12 <pikhq_> Either.
21:47:20 <Vorpal> cache size: 3072 KB
21:47:24 <pikhq_> L1?
21:47:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, laptop is a Core 2 Duo
21:47:30 <Vorpal> so the cache size is silly
21:47:36 <Vorpal> that is L2
21:48:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway L1 doesn't really matter here, /bin/true is not going to run long enough for it to be useful. L1 is useful for tight loops!
21:48:15 <Vorpal> /bin/true doesn't loop
21:48:27 <pikhq_> Anyways, this is all serving more as a *proxy* for something much more relevant.
21:48:35 <pikhq_> Namely, code.
21:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq_, and I can't check on my desktop (Core i7 Sandy Bridge) since it is booted to windows atm
21:48:51 <pikhq_> To get a large /bin/true like that the *code* is large and hard to understand, needlessly.
21:49:04 <Vorpal> now that is a much more relevant point
21:50:05 <Vorpal> in which case a simple #include <stdlib.h>\n int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } makes most sense
21:50:23 <pikhq_> Yup.
21:50:23 <Vorpal> unless POSIX says /bin/true should return 0, in which case you can drop that include
21:50:48 <nortti> I wrote my own true: main(){return 0;}
21:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: return 0 is guaranteed to work like return EXIT_SUCCESS IIRC.
21:51:04 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, perhaps
21:51:05 <elliott> (But return 1 is not guaranteed to work like return EXIT_FAILURE.)
21:51:09 <Vorpal> right
21:51:14 <nortti> it compiles to 348B binary using otcc
21:51:20 <Vorpal> nortti, didn't you use a symlink before?
21:51:28 <Vorpal> you changed your mind?
21:51:36 <Vorpal> also which linker did you use?
21:51:44 <pikhq_> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c This is not as bad as a lot of *other* things in coreutils, but still a bit much.
21:51:49 * elliott thinks it's perfectly reasonable for true to support help, fwiw.
21:52:03 <elliott> Why be inconsistent, UI-wise, just because a program's main purpose is trivial?
21:52:06 <nortti> Vorpal: I used otcc. it has builting cpp, codegenerator and linker
21:52:08 <pikhq_> atexit (close_stdout);
21:52:11 <pikhq_> *WHY*
21:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, :)
21:52:17 <pikhq_> *WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT*
21:52:26 <kmc> i have this notion that most GNU code is terrible
21:52:31 <kmc> even though the programs are useful and work ok
21:52:31 <Vorpal> pikhq_, uh, perhaps they were supporting some old system that was broken?
21:52:53 <pikhq_> Vorpal: But has working atexit?
21:53:02 <elliott> pikhq_: instead of assuming there's no reason and they're just dumb, I'd probably assume there is a good reason and I just don't know it
21:53:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, stranger things have happened
21:53:03 <elliott> ymmv
21:53:21 <kmc> i don't always call longjmp, but when i do it's from an atexit handler
21:53:22 <Vorpal> check the log for the file maybe
21:53:27 <elliott> (not that I'm saying GNU code is good in general)
21:53:28 <Vorpal> or look up the docs for the function
21:53:49 <Vorpal> since it isn't in that file
21:53:57 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:54:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/commit/src/true.c?id=309c1c3e47655f610c3c169bc19de9d4a3fc92a1
21:54:14 <nortti> Vorpal: althought you might not want to use otccelf (otcc that produces elf files. I used that not otcc) for real purposes because it is IOCCC winner
21:54:17 <Vorpal> no idea why yet
21:54:33 <Vorpal> nortti, hah
21:54:42 <elliott> pikhq_: consider true > file
21:54:50 <elliott> needing to close stdout seems more plausible then
21:54:51 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's from the giant chunk of portability-by-invoking-undefined-behavior-special-cased called gnulib.
21:55:26 <Vorpal> nortti, winner which year?
21:55:41 <Vorpal> pikhq_, right, but why
21:56:04 <olsner> does google index the logs of #esoteric?
21:56:11 <elliott> yes
21:56:15 <elliott> sux 2 b u
21:56:19 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't remember
21:57:05 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:57:37 <nortti> Vorpal: 2001
21:57:37 <Vorpal> nortti, didn't you say otcc was the one you wrote?!
21:57:54 <Vorpal> or was that a different one?
21:57:56 <elliott> olsner: why did you ask, out of curiosity
21:57:58 <elliott> *do
21:57:59 <nortti> Vorpal: no. I have my own c compiler that is unnamed
21:58:02 <Vorpal> ah
21:58:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, there?
21:58:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: No.
21:59:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does your JIT dc from IOCCC work?
21:59:13 <Gregor> Quite well, thank you.
21:59:14 <Vorpal> also I can't find the download link
21:59:36 <Vorpal> where the hell is the download link from the last IOCCC!?
21:59:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards
21:59:40 <pikhq_> There appears to be no documentation for why that function exists at all.
21:59:47 <nortti> Vorpal: if you can stand otcc's c dialect it otccelf produces very small files
21:59:53 <pikhq_> Given that, I am inclined to call it cargo culting.
22:00:17 <elliott> nortti: If you can stand cat(1)'s assembly dialect it produces very small files.
22:00:20 <pikhq_> Also, the function in question depends on functions that need to be special cased for each libc.
22:00:21 <Vorpal> nortti, I can only stand using C99 or later
22:00:25 <elliott> s/assembly/machine code/
22:00:32 <olsner> elliott: wanted to find some logs, specifically the one where I say mod_rewrite is faster than python
22:00:39 <elliott> olsner: !logs
22:00:43 <Gregor> elliott: s/machine code/& embedded in a binary format/
22:00:44 <elliott> use rsync + grep
22:00:47 <elliott> Gregor: yes
22:00:49 <elliott> Gregor: "dialect"
22:01:00 <Gregor> Hah
22:01:09 <olsner> "<olsner> it's faster than python now, by 15%"
22:01:31 <nortti> implementation of what?
22:01:32 <olsner> google found http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.04.14
22:01:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, gah I don't want to unravel that. How do you do it? Precompile functions and copy them in?
22:02:03 <olsner> otoh, I think that was with the version that was 10% off the correct answer
22:02:13 <Gregor> Vorpal: My policy remains firm. I'll help you figure it out if you put in a bit of effort, I won't just tell you.
22:02:52 * elliott knows how!
22:02:56 * elliott will also not tell.
22:03:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, sec, needs to load the code on a desktop monitor
22:03:39 <elliott> Gregor: You told me. Does that mean I'm special?
22:03:43 <Gregor> I'm going to go take a shower, so if you're onto something I'll help you then.
22:03:52 <Gregor> elliott: You asked before IOCCC X-D
22:03:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, meh I'm likely going to sleep soon
22:03:59 <elliott> This is true!!!
22:04:00 <Gregor> And hence, before my policy existed.
22:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, can you tell me?
22:04:04 * elliott early & special
22:04:38 <Vorpal> ergh
22:04:41 <Vorpal> too annoying
22:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: just devote a bit of effort to it
22:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, har har
22:04:52 <elliott> it's not that hard to figure out some of it
22:04:59 <elliott> i don't understand this laugh
22:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm half asleep
22:05:07 <elliott> so do it tomorrow :P
22:05:22 <Vorpal> doubt I will remember
22:05:32 <elliott> i'll remind you
22:05:39 <elliott> or rather lambdabot will
22:06:23 <Vorpal> also I will be busy then
22:06:36 <Vorpal> or I could just grep the logs
22:06:40 <Vorpal> for when Gregor told you
22:06:48 <Vorpal> elliott, unless that was outside this channel?
22:06:55 <elliott> it was
22:06:59 <Vorpal> ouch
22:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so why not just tell me. You are a nice guy after all. Right?
22:07:23 <elliott> nice enough to not ruin a puzzle for you, yes
22:08:30 <Vorpal> well I'm going to try to build Gregor's program under Windows. Using MSVC 2010!
22:08:38 <Vorpal> it should be portable right?
22:08:52 <elliott> might work
22:08:58 <Vorpal> not sure about alloca though
22:09:45 <olsner> well, does it require alloca or was that an optional feature?
22:10:12 <nortti> Gregor: it doesn't compile with bcc ;(
22:10:21 <nortti> or otccelf
22:10:47 <Vorpal> nortti, tried the various flags?
22:11:01 <Vorpal> olsner, it requires it
22:11:28 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:12:22 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. it dies on either missing mmap.h or MAP_PRIVATE and MAP_ANON
22:12:40 <Vorpal> nortti, -DNM irc
22:12:41 <Vorpal> iirc*
22:12:47 <Vorpal> read the code to figure out the defines
22:12:54 <ais523> elliott: just got -6 against death_to_defence with a defence program :)
22:12:59 <ais523> and am now furiously constant tweaking
22:13:09 <ais523> looks like defence may be back on after all
22:13:13 <elliott> \o/
22:13:14 <myndzi> |
22:13:14 <lambdabot> myndzi: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:13:14 <myndzi> /|
22:13:18 <elliott> ais523: did you see quintopia updated spelevator?
22:13:31 <ais523> I knew he was doing it, I didn't see the final update
22:13:34 <nortti> Vorpal: It results in missing symbols
22:13:38 <elliott> it now gets 50 points or something
22:13:47 <ais523> which is good, but not leaderboard-topping good
22:13:51 <elliott> right
22:13:55 <ais523> quintopia: what sort of updates did you apply?
22:14:09 <elliott> ais523: how does the defence program work?
22:14:33 <ais523> I'll publish it all at once
22:14:43 <ais523> but it has some similarities to shudder programs
22:14:49 <ais523> and other similarities to lock programs
22:15:03 <elliott> ais523: I was just asking for the strategy info, not the code :p
22:15:07 <ais523> yep
22:15:26 <ais523> it's basically formed of periods of shuddering and periods of clearing
22:15:40 <ais523> and runs out of time on long tapes, and has a lot of potential for constant tweaking
22:17:59 <Gregor> <Vorpal> read the code to figure out the defines // or, read the hints file X-D
22:18:20 <elliott> ais523: it would be nice to have a generic constant-tweaker program
22:18:26 <elliott> that's a much simpler thing to write than a full evolver
22:18:44 <ais523> I already have one, what do you think I'm tweaking with?
22:18:54 <elliott> ah, I assumed you wrote one for the purpose
22:19:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: It should compile with MSVC, but you MAY need to tweak it to include malloc.h, if I recall my Windows alloca properly.
22:19:01 <elliott> what is its input syntax like?
22:19:16 <ais523> you put a t after any number in the code, it mutates it
22:19:27 <elliott> why t?
22:19:37 <ais523> multiple numbers if you want to optimise multiple things against each other
22:19:44 <ais523> and I'm guessing "tweak", although I can no longer remember
22:19:50 <elliott> how fast is it?
22:19:55 <elliott> (and what hill does it use?)
22:19:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, I have a CD with MSVC 6.0 somewhere, should I try it?
22:20:08 <ais523> not all that fast on defence programs, and it uses any hill you like, I'm running it on EgoBot's current hill
22:20:09 <Vorpal> actually I doubt that will run on 64-bit windows 7
22:20:14 <ais523> although atm it's optimising for points not score
22:20:19 <Vorpal> yeah I really don't want to mess up my system
22:20:32 <ais523> ah, MSVC of the ALL-CAPS MENUS
22:20:39 <Vorpal> what?
22:20:41 <Vorpal> I don't remember that
22:20:57 <ais523> it's new
22:21:02 <ais523> people are raging about it
22:21:06 <Vorpal> ais523, 2011?
22:21:09 <ais523> 2012
22:21:10 <Deewiant> I saw a screenshot and they looked reasonable
22:21:12 <Vorpal> oh
22:21:13 <ais523> first Reddit, and now Slashdot
22:21:24 <Vorpal> ais523, all caps menus? what?
22:21:32 <Vorpal> how does that make sense?
22:21:37 <Deewiant> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/unqpz/microsoft_insists_you_will_love_our_all_caps/
22:21:38 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't work.
22:21:43 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
22:21:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, boring
22:22:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, that seems terrible...
22:22:30 <Vorpal> and not 1 april
22:22:32 <Vorpal> wth
22:23:01 <Vorpal> We’ve chosen to use uppercase styling in the top menu for two main reasons: 1) to keep Visual Studio consistent with the direction of other Microsoft user experiences
22:23:04 <Vorpal> HUH?
22:23:11 <Vorpal> where else does microsoft use all caps?
22:23:14 <Vorpal> that is terrible
22:23:31 <Vorpal> oh it lists some places below
22:23:32 <ais523> elliott: anyway, the idea's to beat timer clear by, with appropriately tweaked constants, first locking the main loop, /then/ locking the fallback loop
22:23:39 <ais523> Vorpal: do you agree with the other places?
22:23:52 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't really know anything about them
22:23:54 <ais523> wow, that line would be very zzoish if out of context
22:23:56 <Vorpal> they are not softwares I use
22:24:24 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:24:36 <elliott> Vorpal: do the softwares have codes
22:24:45 <Vorpal> elliott, stop being zzo!
22:24:47 <elliott> ais523: I see
22:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: you're the one who said "softwares"!
22:24:55 <Vorpal> ais523, it works in the web design of azure portal (the linked item)
22:24:59 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough
22:25:10 <Vorpal> ais523, kind of at least. Not terribly nice
22:25:14 * ais523 wonders what will replace Microsoft when they suicide
22:25:20 <Vorpal> but not that bad
22:25:21 <ais523> perhaps they'll survive, who knows
22:25:27 <Vorpal> in a windows UI it is just horrible though
22:25:28 <ais523> windows 8 is going to cause them problems, but they might not be insurmountable
22:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523, I think they are going to get stuck supporting windows 7 for ages, like they got stuck with xp
22:25:54 <elliott> ais523: I'd rather see them do something like Windows 8 than keep releasing the same OS over and over, it's at least more fun to watch
22:26:08 <Vorpal> because windows 7 is a reasonably good, if resource hungry windows version
22:26:12 <Vorpal> far better than vista
22:26:23 <Vorpal> elliott, true
22:26:23 <elliott> vista was not really that bad as i understand it
22:26:25 <ais523> elliott: oh, I'm not talking about my preferences to watch
22:26:31 <ais523> and Vista is my favourite Windows version
22:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, eh I used vista for about half an hour, it was pretty bad
22:26:44 <elliott> anyway, Windows 8 looks pretty badly executed, but I think there's some good sentiment behind it
22:27:01 <elliott> that tends to apply to a lot of things Microsoft does
22:27:50 <elliott> ais523: if Windows 8 ends up being a bad desktop OS, probably the best thing Microsoft can hope for is to give up their desktop OS dominance in turn for the mobile/tablet space
22:27:57 <Vorpal> ais523, "That said, we will enable you to customize the casing, and we are exploring options for how to expose that choice."
22:27:58 <elliott> after all, Windows 8 looks like a pretty good tablet OS
22:28:02 <Vorpal> well it seems like a non-issue now to me
22:28:10 <Vorpal> everyone can get what they prefer
22:28:15 <nortti_> I reistalled Vista 3 times a row because it fucked up itself
22:28:20 <ais523> !bfjoust shudderlock http://sprunge.us/hPLe
22:28:23 <elliott> ais523: what with netbooks and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if they lost that desktop OS grip over a slower period anyway
22:28:34 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_shudderlock: 43.0
22:28:40 <ais523> elliott: it doesn't really fit in with the Windows model well, it seems around as third-party-software-hostile as iOS
22:28:51 <ais523> unapproved third party software, that is
22:28:52 <Vorpal> ais523, what is far more scary is that they will force specific fonts, meaning clear type hell
22:28:57 <elliott> ais523: not really, AFAICT
22:29:14 <ais523> elliott: have you seen that screenshot of Windows 8's metro home page with the Microsoft apps on the left and everyone else's on the right?
22:29:25 <ais523> the contrast is ridiculous :)
22:29:36 <elliott> ais523: that's a far cry from iOS...
22:29:38 <Vorpal> I can't stand cleartype. And Segoe UI and Consolas are unreadable without clear type (everything else is unreadable with it though)
22:29:44 <elliott> everyone promotes their own stuff like that
22:29:47 <ais523> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust
22:29:48 <ais523> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<XX >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<XX 30
22:29:50 <ais523> ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust wins.
22:29:54 <ais523> BF Joust is saved!
22:30:15 <ais523> Vorpal: do you like other subpixel antialiasing systems?
22:30:29 <ais523> as in, is your hatred ClearType in particular or subpixel antialiasing in general?
22:30:32 <ais523> *hatred of
22:30:34 <Vorpal> ais523, the OS X one is somewhat better.
22:30:39 <Vorpal> depends on screen DPI though
22:30:57 <Vorpal> it can be reasonable on a mobile display since they have like 250 dpi or higher
22:31:08 <Vorpal> on a 96 dpi desktop monitor it is painful
22:31:32 <Vorpal> but yeah cleartype is far worse than whatever OS X uses. The linux sub pixel hinting is somewhere in between
22:31:45 <ais523> haha, shudderlock is right next to death_to_defence on the leaderboard
22:31:46 <Vorpal> ais523, still I find fully hinted grayscale antialias easiest to read.
22:32:07 <Vorpal> sure, font nerds are going to cry, but I prefer not getting headaches
22:32:14 <Vorpal> which I /do/ get from cleartype
22:33:39 <ais523> huh, I have no problem with the subpixel antialias used by Ubuntu by default
22:33:56 <Vorpal> I find it terrible
22:33:58 <ais523> except that it's very hard to get a non-anti-aliased font nowadays for situations where you need one
22:34:06 <ais523> perhaps it's to do with the screen you're using
22:34:06 <Vorpal> not using super high DPI though
22:34:17 <ais523> I don't think this screen has larger gaps between pixels than it does within pixels
22:34:22 <ais523> and I make sure to use the screen's native resolution
22:34:26 <Vorpal> same
22:34:33 <elliott> ideally we'd just have high enough DPI screens that antialiasing would be unnecessary
22:34:34 <Vorpal> ais523, still is it a netbook or a laptop?
22:34:35 <ais523> subpixel antialiasing really sucks at non-native resolutions
22:34:39 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed!
22:34:43 <elliott> unfortunately the display tech is not quite there yet
22:34:44 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not sure, it feels like a beefed up netbook
22:34:48 <ais523> designed to run windows 7
22:35:12 <Vorpal> ais523, right, netbooks might have higher DPI. This is a 15.4" laptop display. And it is very much a full laptop
22:35:22 <ais523> oh, it's quite a small screen
22:35:25 <ais523> so higher DPI indeed
22:35:27 <Vorpal> right
22:35:39 <Vorpal> that is why it is usable with subpixel hinting
22:35:57 <Vorpal> ais523, my desktop monitor is 22" or 23" iirc
22:36:01 <elliott> The iPhone 4's DPI looks nice.
22:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc it is lower than that of Samsung Galaxy Nexus still?
22:36:18 <elliott> I suspect it's impossible to see any fringing at a reasonable distance for the human eye on that thing.
22:36:25 <Vorpal> which is like 320 dpi iirc
22:36:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Retina is 326 ppi
22:36:41 <Vorpal> hm
22:36:46 <Vorpal> about the same then
22:36:51 <Vorpal> as close as makes no difference
22:36:54 <elliott> yeah, but apple's font rendering is better :
22:36:55 <elliott> :P
22:36:58 <Vorpal> used a Samsung Galaxy Nexus, very nice phone
22:36:59 <elliott> and the iPhone doesn't use hinting, I think
22:37:06 <elliott> well, almost certain it doesn't
22:37:08 <elliott> since OS X doesn't
22:37:10 <Vorpal> right
22:37:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I still prefer full hinting and greyscale antialias to the OS X default font rendering. Though the OS X font rendering is WAY better than cleartype
22:38:06 <elliott> Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Lone Survivor Added to Humble Indie Bundle V!
22:38:19 <elliott> i like how they keep adding games to bundles most of which i already have
22:38:21 <Vorpal> Lone Survivor? Not sure which one that is
22:38:28 <Vorpal> don't think I have that game
22:38:33 <Vorpal> which bundle was it from?
22:38:34 <elliott> guess i'll buy this thing soon
22:38:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can't complain too much, the deal without those is still excellent
22:39:00 <Vorpal> bastion is just awesome
22:39:06 <Vorpal> best game of 2011 IMO
22:39:14 <Vorpal> (of those I played of course)
22:39:50 <Vorpal> oh Lone Survivor is that game
22:39:52 <Vorpal> right
22:39:54 <Vorpal> seen a video of it
22:42:19 <elliott> ais523: Doesn't "Merfolk" sound like a city in England?
22:42:23 <elliott> Norfolk, Suffolk, Merfolk.
22:43:04 <Vorpal> hm you are right
22:43:28 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... Those cities sound like fantasy races!
22:43:30 <nortti_> anybody know where to download android shell sources?
22:43:51 <Vorpal> nortti_, I guess the system development site for android
22:43:57 <ais523> elliott: a little
22:44:05 <Vorpal> nortti_, that is source.android.com
22:44:11 <Vorpal> seems a reasonable starting place
22:50:05 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:50:36 <ais523> meanwhile, how is kuskelar_a_clatsop_man doing so well? it doesn't make any sense!
22:51:13 <elliott> better ask olsner!
22:51:53 <elliott> hmm, if only I was good at bf joust, so I could name a program something profane
22:52:10 <ais523> `bfjoustcat kuskelar_a_caltsop_man
22:52:13 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoustcat: not found
22:52:30 <elliott> !bfjoust
22:52:31 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:52:44 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust
22:53:00 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/jousturl
22:53:03 <HackEgo> No output.
22:53:15 <elliott> `run echo 'echo "http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/$1.bfjoust"' >>bin/jousturl
22:53:18 <elliott> `run chmod +x bin/jousturl
22:53:18 <HackEgo> No output.
22:53:21 <HackEgo> No output.
22:53:28 <elliott> `jousturl olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man
22:53:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust
22:53:32 <elliott> ais523: yw
22:54:09 <ais523> oh I see, it's mostly a shudder, just with added stupidity
22:54:23 <ais523> (>>.)*3 at the end of the program? seriously?
22:54:29 <elliott> "ask olsner"
22:55:59 <ais523> well, yes
22:56:12 <ais523> I consider it the BF Joust equivalent of trolling, and am wondering if it was evolved
22:57:03 <elliott> ais523: no, interior_crocodile_alligator was "trolling" (i hate that word)
22:57:13 <ais523> well, OK
22:57:17 <ais523> perhaps they both are
22:57:32 <elliott> well, interior_crocodile_alligator won because it did really stupid things that nobody anticipated because they made no sense
22:59:50 <ais523> kuskelar is similar
23:00:06 <ais523> except that some of the things it does not only make no sense, but cannot possibly increase its win chances
23:00:16 <ais523> because they either do nothing or suicide
23:03:31 <elliott> ais523: I think, more probably, olsner just has no idea what he's doing
23:03:34 <elliott> and is winning by luck :)
23:03:55 <elliott> comex: what are you doing
23:06:18 <oerjan> one might hypothesize that no matter the hill, there will be some program which can win it despite being easily defeatable in afterthought
23:07:13 <elliott> oerjan: you sound like itidus :)
23:07:16 <elliott> that seems practically certain to me
23:07:17 <oerjan> basically an extended RPS idea
23:07:29 <elliott> it's generally believed that there is an algorithm that turns a program into a program that beats that program
23:07:33 <elliott> (on all tape lengths and polarities)
23:07:51 <elliott> so "easily defeatable" is a given in some sense
23:08:16 <elliott> oerjan: actually, I think "win it" has to be as strong as "beat every other program on the hill" in general
23:08:21 <elliott> not sure though
23:08:46 <Phantom__Hoover> jesus christ viddler has astonishingly obnoxious ads
23:10:02 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: and it's trying to charge 10¢ per ad to skip them
23:10:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Yep.
23:10:10 <ais523> which is an astonishingly large amount of money
23:10:11 <ais523> for one ad
23:10:21 <ais523> surely ads cost less than 10¢ each on viddler?
23:10:27 <ais523> per view?
23:10:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It's genius in its abject lack of intelligence.
23:10:36 <oerjan> elliott: hm when you put it that way, you could also make the opposite hypothesis - that there's some collection of 50 programs such that at least one of them wins against anything else.
23:10:41 <elliott> ais523: wait, 10 cents /per ad/?
23:10:46 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it's genius in that someone will probably actually pay
23:10:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Yep.
23:10:47 <ais523> elliott: yes!
23:10:51 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:10:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm
23:11:13 <elliott> well, there are plenty of people who could afford that, but it's still exorbitant
23:11:22 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:11:27 <elliott> if you're rich enough, paying 10 cents per ad is cheaper than going to the fuss of blocking them
23:11:45 <ais523> no, because there's fuss in paying the money too
23:12:00 <ais523> you have to get an account with the ad payment people
23:12:05 <ais523> probably /more/ fuss than installing an ad blocker
23:12:19 <ais523> and probably have to log into it, too
23:12:30 <elliott> most people let things stay logged in
23:12:37 <elliott> and if you have your personal details in an autofill thing...
23:12:48 <elliott> it's true that you'd have to be very rich however :)
23:12:52 <ais523> yep, but spontaneous logout for one reason or another is quite common
23:12:52 <Phantom__Hoover> I was about to comment on why Adblock nor Adblock Plus were working on it, but then I realised I have them both turned off on Shamus Young's site.
23:13:27 <ais523> youtube does ads better, and dailymotion better still
23:13:56 <ais523> (dailymotion now allows skipping ads with no downside, even if you don't have an ad blocker; this probably works well in that it doesn't really incentivise you to bother to get an ad blocker, so you still see the very start of each ad)
23:14:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:14:18 <ais523> (youtube has a delay before you can skip a video ad)
23:14:30 <elliott> ais523: i hate that i live in a world where there is something worse than youtube video ads
23:14:41 <elliott> they single-handedly drove me to install an ad blocker
23:14:43 <Phantom__Hoover> I've never really minded YouTube ads?
23:15:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: seriously? the video ones?
23:15:07 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it really depends on what sort of videos you watch, some genres are much ad-heavier than others
23:15:08 <Phantom__Hoover> A few seconds at the start of the video... isn't really what I'd call obnoxious.
23:15:13 <elliott> yes it is
23:15:14 <elliott> you're awful
23:15:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Seriously? I've never had a problem with it.
23:15:49 <nortti_> ais523: youtube has ads before videos? since when?
23:16:10 <ais523> nortti_: as I said, it really depends on what you're looking at
23:16:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Although when they still did the long ads (rarely) I just muted them and tabbed out so I'm pretty tolerant.
23:16:21 <ais523> watch, say, ten to twenty featured videos in a row and you'll start seeing them
23:16:27 <ais523> and yes, I use the mute-and-tab-out method too
23:16:58 <nortti_> ais523: in what kind of videos do you see them?
23:16:59 <pikhq_> I never notice because AdBlock.
23:17:05 <elliott> on tv i watch the ads out of perverse amusement
23:17:10 <elliott> i mean
23:17:10 <ais523> nortti_: featured videos, and videos by youtube partners
23:17:12 <elliott> they're amazing
23:17:18 <elliott> ais523: more than just that
23:17:20 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not sure if the Viddler ads were mutable.
23:17:25 <elliott> i think
23:17:28 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, I won't hear you badmouth TV ads.
23:17:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Have you ever wanted a cup of tea in the middle of an hour-long BBC slot?
23:17:48 <ais523> elliott: and the other category is videos which contain audio or video which has a third-party copyright claim
23:18:25 <ais523> increasingly common nowadays, with the rise of copyright trolls
23:18:59 <nortti_> ais523: I watch videos by youtube partners and I have never seen them. it mat be because I haven't used youtube's official players for over haof a year
23:19:01 <Phantom__Hoover> Apparently Americans don't get those "blocked from your country on copyright grounds" messages.
23:19:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: im not badmouthing they're glorious
23:19:09 <Phantom__Hoover> I refuse to believe that.
23:19:10 <elliott> it's capitalism at its finest!!!
23:19:24 <pikhq_> Phantom__Hoover: We do.
23:19:27 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: they do sometimes, but on different content from other videos
23:19:27 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, OK but seriously why do the 5-second YouTube ads count as obnoxious?
23:19:30 <pikhq_> Just not as often.
23:19:40 <ais523> as in, "blocked in your country" varies from country to country, obvioulsy
23:19:42 <ais523> *obviously
23:20:01 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean... it seems like a decent compromise for me.
23:20:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: i really cba to talk about it
23:20:37 <zzo38> Better way is don't use the YouTube, if you can host your own video file
23:20:45 <ais523> hmm, I should block ads in more places, I think it's vaguely immoral to support an inviable economic model
23:20:47 <kmc> host it on gopher
23:20:53 <Phantom__Hoover> Also what TV ads are you talking about, I'm desensitised to the because I'm too normal
23:20:57 <pikhq_> youtube-dl for winnitude.
23:21:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, shhhh, if they think it'll work don't dissuade them.
23:22:06 <zzo38> kmc: The protocol is not relevant, it can be gopher, HTTP, FTP, or something else; I am just saying host it yourself and convert it yourself, to Theora or whatever
23:22:57 <ais523> zzo38: people don't really use Theora nowadays, WebM was open-sourced and open-patented and is better
23:23:21 <zzo38> I still prefer Theora
23:23:28 <nortti_> pikhq_: that is how I watch my youtube videos nowadays. before I used mactubes
23:23:32 <zzo38> But you could use WebM f you want, too
23:23:48 <david_werecat> BTW, Theora is a video codec, not a container format
23:23:49 <lambdabot> david_werecat: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:24:06 <zzo38> david_werecat: Yes I know. The container format would be Ogg
23:24:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:24:52 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
23:25:31 <zzo38> Wikipedia also uses Theora
23:25:36 <pikhq_> I don't think there's *any* advantage to using Theora over VP8.
23:26:58 <zzo38> Does VP8 support Ogg container?
23:27:26 <pikhq_> The issue is more one of "does Ogg support VP8"...
23:27:46 <zzo38> Yes. But, the Ogg container can contain any data, I suppose
23:28:26 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:30:15 <pikhq_> Also, any reason to prefer Ogg over MKV?
23:30:35 <zzo38> Once I tried to invent Micro-Ogg which is like Ogg but the block headings are smaller and some features are removed
23:30:49 <pikhq_> Aside from "holy mother of fuck MKV is complicated", that is.
23:31:02 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes that is the reason.
23:31:16 <pikhq_> (if it's a feature that can go in a container format, MKV has it)
23:31:31 <pikhq_> zzo38: The subset of MKV that WebM videos can have isn't that bad, though.
23:33:17 <zzo38> I prefer Micro-Ogg
23:35:21 <zzo38> I have worked on writing a video disc format, using headerless Theora to encode videos (PAL systems support Dirac as well as Theora), using the Micro-Ogg container for the video/audio data, and other simple headerless binary formats for some of the other data (such as track names and so on)
23:38:23 <zzo38> So if you want VP8, you should still use Ogg or Micro-Ogg
23:44:31 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:48:02 <zzo38> Why is not allowed to view TOPIC messages if not on that channel?
23:48:15 <elliott> secret
23:55:02 <quintopia> huh
23:55:10 <quintopia> what bad luck for ais leaving just as i arrive :P
23:55:14 <quintopia> (and me too)
23:55:42 <zzo38> Oops now you will have 13 kinds of bad luck
23:56:22 <quintopia> bad luck breeds more bad luck?
23:56:24 <quintopia> that's bad luck
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