←2012-06-18 2012-06-19 2012-06-20→ ↑2012 ↑all
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02:14:02 <quintopia> get ready for the most amazingly tiny marginal score improvement you've ever seen!
02:14:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/HABh
02:14:20 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 58.0
02:15:13 <quintopia> lol. okay. that's a lowering of score. but it's an improvement according to quintopia_scoring_system so it stays :P
02:15:40 <oerjan> i thought i'd seen sixty-something
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02:41:13 <quintopia> oerjan: it was at 58.3 before that change. it's not much of a loss.
02:41:36 <quintopia> (it dropped below 60 when brachiation started beating it)
02:42:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/NWIE
02:42:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 58.7
02:42:44 <quintopia> hmm. that worked better than expected.
02:55:25 <quintopia> this one is apparently for pippa fans:
02:55:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/PiPa
02:55:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 60.2
03:04:06 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/dUBN.
03:11:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:11:42 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.8
03:11:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:11:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
03:11:59 <quintopia> interest
03:12:04 <quintopia> oh
03:12:09 <quintopia> hm
03:14:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*22]++)*24
03:14:18 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.2
03:14:35 <quintopia> so _sensitive_
03:14:53 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:14:56 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
03:15:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]-)*24
03:15:25 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 25.3
03:15:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]--)*24
03:15:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 44.7
03:15:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:15:47 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
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06:00:31 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett UPDATE
06:30:34 <itidus21> nooga: you are on a train?
06:30:46 <itidus21> oops i forgot to scroll down
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06:46:18 <Taneb> Hello
06:47:36 <fizzie> Uryyb to you too.
07:00:32 <itidus21> waa
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07:51:23 <Taneb> Hello
08:03:04 <itidus21> Uryyb
08:03:22 <Taneb> What is that even about?
08:03:29 <Taneb> "Uryyb"
08:03:40 <itidus21> its a very base joke.. so base even i guessed it
08:03:46 <itidus21> it's a rot13 of Hello
08:03:56 <Taneb> That's...
08:04:03 <Taneb> How does that even qualify as a joke?
08:04:23 <Taneb> Je;;p would almost be a joke
08:04:34 <itidus21> i hope this doesn't mean my influence is rubbing off
08:05:14 <itidus21> maybe i'm getting smarter...
08:07:46 <itidus21> Taneb, I have decided to analyze video games from an unusual direction
08:07:58 <itidus21> It's a burgeoning idea I had for a while.
08:08:09 <Taneb> North by North West?
08:08:19 <Taneb> :P
08:08:23 <Taneb> But go on
08:08:28 <Sgeo> Kata!
08:08:30 <itidus21> Infact I think the premise alone could sell books.
08:09:00 <Sgeo> Kata is the best direction.
08:09:01 <itidus21> but, ok well, comparing games by attributes such as "does the game have jumping? does the game have guns?
08:09:13 <itidus21> does the game have ladders?
08:09:21 <Taneb> You mean like Super Mario Bros 3?
08:09:24 <itidus21> does it have a score?
08:09:33 <Taneb> I believe that has all those elements
08:10:21 <itidus21> I came up with a fairly random list of about 29 games with a nintendo platform bias
08:10:40 <itidus21> uh.. my bias
08:11:10 <kmc> doors that open by themselves, sliding doors, secret doors, doors that lock, doors that don't
08:11:30 <itidus21> like, the trouble I see is that there aren't any websites which store such information in a database in existence
08:11:38 <Sgeo> Clearly, you should get some aliens to design games.
08:11:53 <itidus21> well it's not so much a trouble, as it is some uncharted ground
08:11:55 <Taneb> Assassin's Creed Brotherhood has jumping, guns, ladders, but no score
08:11:58 <Sgeo> Then they won't refernce Earthy things
08:12:11 <Sgeo> And Earthy gaming conventions
08:12:36 <Taneb> Like metal barrels are always explosive
08:12:38 <itidus21> Taneb: well.. as i make up more of these arbitrary categories the whole process can get very drawn out
08:13:04 <itidus21> infact, i think that at some level, such a database could be a behemoth
08:13:38 <itidus21> and it's not the sort of thing people need.. it's just me looking for a niche way of analysis
08:15:04 <itidus21> but i'm probably onto something.. most of my ideas are half-truths and misguided versions of actual good ideas
08:15:32 <itidus21> as it is, you can't look up in any database which video games contain blue hats
08:15:47 <itidus21> but with the "kind" of database i am describing, you might be able to
08:17:20 <nooga> it's called being a data nerd
08:17:45 <itidus21> aha
08:19:30 <itidus21> i just might be a data nerd
08:19:47 <Taneb> I think Team Fortress 2 has blue hats
08:19:53 <Taneb> Team Fortress 2 has all the hats
08:22:06 <fizzie> http://www.gameontology.com/index.php/Main_Page is doing something a bit like that.
08:22:19 <fizzie> For example, http://www.gameontology.com/index.php/To_Shoot is a bit like "does it have guns?"
08:22:23 <itidus21> i am being serious too.. you would goto tidusdatanerd.com and see the box Search: [__________] and type in "blue hats" and it would list (1)Team Fortress 2 (2)[...]
08:22:39 <fizzie> They're probably not the only folks, but they're maybe the most pretentious.
08:22:40 <itidus21> fizzie: gah.... why can't i ever have a niche to myself ;_;
08:23:01 <itidus21> i suppose that tvtropes is sort of doing the same thing in a manner of speaking
08:23:22 <fizzie> And they mostly just list some examples instead of trying to build a comprehensive list.
08:24:02 <itidus21> cool
08:24:30 <itidus21> well as it turns out it's actually quite difficult to prove a negative about a video game
08:24:39 <fizzie> They're trying to do a hierarchical thing, though. And I suppose it's as pointless as anything involving the word "ontology" tends to be, but anyway.
08:25:08 <itidus21> So i guess such a database should be padded out with unknown
08:25:39 <itidus21> and the categorization of some of these things is a nightmare
08:26:22 <itidus21> like, most games which have jumping have a jump button.. but some games require you to press 2 buttons at once to jump...
08:26:58 <nooga> yawn
08:27:02 <fizzie> I see they've put out some game conference papers about their por-ject.
08:27:40 <itidus21> and in link's awakening you need an item to jump
08:28:29 <nooga> who'd input the data?
08:28:32 <itidus21> or in some games you may have to drive a car up a ramp to jump
08:29:24 <itidus21> or basically some environmental jump could be a trampoline or a ramp etc
08:30:41 <itidus21> nooga: well, the main point i think is the data exists
08:30:49 <fizzie> If you want even more of a niche project, http://www.igcd.net/ have a database of which models of cars have been seen in which video games.
08:30:52 <itidus21> but what kind of nutcases care about it
08:31:25 <itidus21> wow.. that IS niche
08:31:50 <itidus21> the fact you know about igcd tells me i am a long way from kansas
08:32:04 <fizzie> I did not know about it four minutes ago.
08:32:23 <itidus21> phew
08:32:30 <itidus21> i would be scared if you had
08:33:21 <itidus21> nooga: basically it's just a mode of exploration.. looking for niches.. looking for a leg up on the rivals
08:33:34 <nooga> you could build akinator-like service only for games then
08:33:44 <itidus21> if such a database existed i would be merely looking for new niches
08:33:51 <nooga> and amaze bunch of bored players
08:34:03 <itidus21> a lot of the fun of a niche is it's exclusivity
08:35:57 <nooga> mmm
08:36:37 <itidus21> i am gonna visit the irc chat of igcd just to see what is there
08:39:52 <itidus21> hmm that server is gone
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08:43:26 <itidus21> nooga: ah yes akinator!
08:44:08 <itidus21> i'm doomed to be to video games as scott mccloud is to comics
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08:46:15 <itidus21> nooga: well it is my job to enter such data
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08:47:42 <itidus21> knowing though, that each search for such a datum could result in new sub-questions, and that well.. it's not computable how long any such question will take to answer
08:48:38 <itidus21> .... ^well maybe it's computable..
08:48:48 <itidus21> but it's not predictable by ordinary means..
08:53:59 <nooga> uh
09:02:38 <Taneb> itidus21, there's someone on #haskell reminding me of you
09:02:44 <Taneb> <kilon> expect a lot more weird questions coming from me in the future :D
09:03:48 <itidus21> when someone such as me is aware of their own weirdness... that is usually a sign of trouble
09:04:13 <Taneb> Or redemption
09:04:33 <itidus21> nah he's comfortable with asking weird questions apparently
09:05:05 <itidus21> my current query is the native resolution of atari asteroids
09:05:41 <itidus21> due to being a data nerd...
09:05:57 <itidus21> (as nooga suggested) i have no practical application of this info though
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09:07:44 <kmc> itidus21: www.philpem.me.uk/elec/vecgen.pdf
09:08:10 <kmc> the short answer is 1024 × 1024
09:08:15 <itidus21> thanks
09:08:26 <kmc> but it's true vector graphics
09:08:37 <kmc> the graphics chip directly controls the deflection of the electron beam
09:08:41 <kmc> there's not a grid of pixels as such
09:09:00 <itidus21> does that mean it could have more res if it had uh i dunno
09:09:05 <kmc> and so it could move very smoothly between line endpoints, or generate circles etc. with analog oscillators
09:09:15 <kmc> i don't know if the DVG actually has these capabilities
09:09:39 <itidus21> i mean, i get the sense that 1024 is just an arbitrary constraint they settled on
09:10:06 <itidus21> probably for addressing
09:10:07 <kmc> the CPU sends coordinates to the DVG over a digital data bus
09:10:12 <kmc> those coordinates are 10 bit
09:10:36 <itidus21> ah ok
09:10:37 <kmc> but you could have a system where, even though the endpoints of lines are locked to a 1024 × 1024 grid, the beam deflection between points is much smoother and does not alias to that grid
09:10:54 <kmc> this could be done with a higher resolution internal counter + DAC, or with analog circuitry
09:11:42 <itidus21> bloody nice answer though.
09:11:51 <itidus21> as if you had been waiting for someone to ask
09:11:54 <kmc> :)
09:11:59 <kmc> i looked this up a while ago for no particular reason
09:12:13 <kmc> i think just because i went to barcade in brooklyn and was impressed by how nice the original asteroids machine looks
09:12:29 <kmc> it has a brilliantly intense white on black CRT
09:12:46 <kmc> objects leave wonderful trails as they move
09:12:51 <itidus21> wikipedia did mention the DVG (with a red link) but i more or less overlooked it's relevance to the question)
09:13:13 <kmc> also http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
09:16:57 <kmc> it sounds like those 10 bits are all the resolution it has on the output
09:17:40 <itidus21> thats a good article.
09:19:16 <itidus21> it's all so funny now, with everyone owning their own framebuffers
09:19:46 <itidus21> but this vector stuff seems to still have advantages over that
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09:26:46 <Taneb> Oh god this exists https://twitter.com/#!/HexhamProblems
09:28:06 <kmc> i'm not sure why this document about the digital vector generator goes off on a long tangent where they basically explain how to design a CPU
09:28:36 <Taneb> Does homestuck.bandcamp.com look dodgy to anyone else?
09:28:54 <itidus21> yeah i knew that part was over my head so i cut to the "final thoughts"
09:29:09 <itidus21> oops no, "a final thought"
09:29:45 <Taneb> Nah, it works now
09:30:58 <fizzie> Taneb: Are those Hexham Problems the kind of problems you have?
09:31:06 <Taneb> Not really, no
09:31:26 <Taneb> I'm out of earshot of the Abbey
09:31:45 <itidus21> donnies and spoons
09:32:06 <Taneb> Never been to Donnies, haven't been to Spoons in ages
09:32:10 <Taneb> brb
09:32:32 <kmc> itidus21: ah, later they talk about analog vector generators
09:32:51 <kmc> which would actually draw those perfectly smooth lines
09:33:35 <itidus21> #hexhamproblems "The awkward moment when your intimidated at the sele by 13 year old chavs"
09:33:37 <kmc> which was used by Battlezone apparently
09:35:10 <itidus21> apparently The Sele = A shitty scumbag of a school. They say they deal with bullying, no they dont. They say they have a good reputation, no they dont.
09:38:17 <Taneb> Back
09:38:25 <fizzie> There's an "elliott" (with a different surname) following HexhamProblems.
09:38:39 <Taneb> itidus21, in this context, the Sele refers to the field and hill, not the school
09:38:54 <Taneb> The oldest pupils of the school are 9
09:39:12 <fizzie> What's "mish"? Is that like a type of going somewhere?
09:39:21 <Taneb> Yeah, short for "mission"
09:39:32 <Taneb> It may be Hexham-specific slang
09:39:33 <kmc> oh man, it had analog clipping to rectangle too
09:39:38 <fizzie> "You know your from hexham when you mish to tescos ten times a day" "The soundtrack to your mish down the street being the harpsicord busker".
09:39:41 <fizzie> Okay.
09:40:09 <itidus21> Taneb: well i'm absolutely sure that all the people from hexham would be happier if hexham slang didn't become a major topic :D
09:40:18 <Taneb> Yeah
09:40:24 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^6^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:40:26 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626387169884407661971693988789488104965184659327495149...
09:40:32 <shachaf> "pretty good eh"
09:40:43 <Taneb> Is that actually pi?
09:40:51 <Taneb> I don't get out much, and elliott probably isn't real
09:40:56 <itidus21> im just gonna let it blow over
09:41:18 <fizzie> Taneb: What's a "geordie"?
09:41:33 <Taneb> Person from Newcastle, with all the stereotypes that entails
09:41:37 <fizzie> Hokay.
09:41:41 <itidus21> Taneb: oh no. it's started :D
09:41:44 <fizzie> You've got quite a lot of these terms.
09:41:48 <Taneb> i.e., tough, hardy, has a cool accent
09:42:09 <itidus21> fizzie: both taneb and elliott would probably rather we didn't explore it.
09:42:22 <Taneb> A combination of English, Scottish, and I think Norwegian accents
09:42:24 <itidus21> i can't really explain why.. i don't know
09:43:03 <shachaf> "oops"
09:43:14 <fizzie> Taneb: Oh, so "spoons" was a place. I was thinking, you know, spoons. I mean, they keep knives away from folk that might do stuff with them, don't they?
09:43:27 <itidus21> most americans can't follow a british accent very well.
09:44:26 <itidus21> but since australia is full of immigrants from that part of the world our accent is well.. compatible i think
09:44:56 <itidus21> i don't know why that would be the case though
09:45:15 <Taneb> itidus21, some british accents aren't compatible at all
09:45:28 <itidus21> well i mean.. some people literally can't parse it
09:45:39 <Taneb> I'd pay good money to see a person from Glasgow, a person from Somerset, and a person of Yorkshire trying to talk to eachother
09:46:02 <itidus21> more likely im full of crap
09:46:32 <Taneb> fizzie, spoons is slang for the pub chain Wetherspoon
09:46:56 <Taneb> Especially the one in Hexham, which is next to the cinema
09:47:21 <itidus21> there was a cool slang word i learned yesterday.. i forget what it was
09:47:29 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:47:31 <lambdabot> Terminated
09:47:35 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:47:37 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
09:47:39 <shachaf> MUCH BETTER
09:47:53 <Taneb> Are... are they different at all
09:48:57 <Sgeo> KQ has the best music.
09:49:33 <itidus21> aha yes
09:49:44 <itidus21> the verb raspberry
09:49:52 <itidus21> raspberry tart = fart
09:52:20 <itidus21> Kings Quest?
09:52:50 <Sgeo> http://kqlives.sourceforge.net/
09:53:21 <Taneb> `echo -e "a\nb"
09:53:30 <HackEgo> ​-e "a\nb"
09:53:48 <Sgeo> `run echo -e "a\nb"
09:53:52 <HackEgo> a \ b
09:54:09 <Sgeo> `ls
09:54:11 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ quotes.new \ share \ wisdom
09:54:21 <Sgeo> `ls quotes
09:54:25 <HackEgo> quotes
09:54:33 <Sgeo> `cat quotes
09:54:37 <HackEgo> ​<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should
09:54:46 <Taneb> `pastequotes
09:54:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32574
09:56:47 <Taneb> What's up with the Alternate Universe quotes early on?
09:57:36 <fizzie> fungot: Is he really a tricycle?
09:57:38 <fungot> fizzie: though the error message and make your head detachable... i downloaded the tex fnord is there a scheme that offers methods on any data type.
09:57:47 <fizzie> ^style ct
09:57:48 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
09:57:53 <fizzie> fungot: A detachable head?
09:57:54 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find!
09:58:07 <fizzie> fungot: I don't have a detachable head.
09:58:08 <fungot> fizzie: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y.
09:59:12 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, I won't use the crane to detach my head. But I'm still unclear on whether he was a tricycle.
09:59:13 <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
09:59:35 <fizzie> I have to say I kind of like that "i, myself, will bring an end to all" thing.
10:00:31 <kmc> "The TMS320P15 was supposedly hack-proof once the Security Bit was set. It wasn't. The reason I know is that in that project I put in an undocumented program that sent out the Atari copyright message in Morse Code. Because of the DSP's speed it could be received by just placing a standard AM radio near the PC Board. The program was called only by grounding an innocuously unused I/O pin during Reset. When Atari received a counterfeited game
10:01:02 <shachaf> kmc: Having trouble in this game of golf.
10:01:10 <kmc> the only winning move is not to play
10:01:38 <shachaf> kmc: edwardk came with a variation so inefficient, lambdabot doesn't manage to compute it all the way to the cutoff point.
10:01:43 <shachaf> That's 74 digits of pi.
10:01:51 <shachaf> But it's several characters shorter. :-(
10:02:09 <shachaf> (In fact maybe no computer would be able to calculate it to the cutoff point ever with that algorithm.)
10:02:15 <kmc> (did my full quote come through just now?)
10:02:24 <shachaf> Reset. When Atari received a counterfeited game
10:02:43 <kmc> "...When Atari received a counterfeited game to examine, I placed an AM radio near the board, grounded the aforementioned I/O pin, gave it a Reset, and heard my Copyright Message on the radio."
10:04:26 <fizzie> I've used a TMS320C5416 for schoolwork, it was a fancy. (Much later thing than a C15, though.)
10:17:29 <nooga> i am shocked
10:17:45 <Taneb> nooga, has the psychology experiment gone wrong?
10:17:58 <nooga> my lisp interpreter actually compiles and runs every single example from various books
10:18:10 <Taneb> Without warnings?
10:18:23 <Taneb> (yours as in you wrote it?)
10:18:30 <nooga> oh, it would just crash if something went wrong
10:18:35 <nooga> yeah
10:18:59 <Taneb> Try running something bigger
10:19:22 <nooga> I don't have backquote and macros
10:19:37 <Taneb> Well, now you know what to do next!
10:19:38 <Taneb> :)
10:19:47 <Taneb> Go out and celebrate!
10:19:52 <Taneb> Go to LegoLand or somewhere!
10:20:20 <nooga> i'd rather buy two beers
10:20:47 <Taneb> Buy three beers!
10:20:49 <Taneb> :)
10:20:59 <fizzie> LeggoLand, where everyone tries to escape.
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11:28:51 <nooga> okay
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13:35:42 <itidus21> nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBl4qH9I54
13:37:07 <elliott> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
13:37:08 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
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13:39:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
13:39:41 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.9
13:39:58 <quintopia> elliott: that basically says "let this list be this list added with itself shifted to the right by one"?
13:40:11 <quintopia> s/right/left/
13:41:14 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
13:41:15 <elliott> quintopia: fibs is a list starting with 0, continuing with 1, and then continuing with fibs added with fibs sans the first element, yes.
13:41:16 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
13:42:22 <quintopia> does "tail" mean the same as "cdr" or does it not use cons lists?
13:43:04 <elliott> It's a linked list, yes.
13:43:10 <elliott> data [a] = [] | a : [a]
13:43:19 <elliott> tail (_:xs) = xs
13:43:22 <elliott> tail [] = undefined
13:43:28 <elliott> Ideally you would use
13:43:35 <elliott> data Stream a = a :> Stream a
13:43:38 <elliott> tail (_ :> xs) = xs
13:43:44 <elliott> and it would not ues the avoid of the partial function "tail".
13:43:46 <elliott> *use
13:43:50 <elliott> But Stream isn't in the standard library.
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13:44:41 <quintopia> what does :> mean
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13:45:47 <elliott> Nothing. It's a user-defined operator.
13:45:50 <elliott> I could just as easily say
13:45:57 <elliott> data Stream a = a :$$$$ Stream a
13:45:57 <elliott> or
13:46:01 <elliott> data Stream a = Cons a (Stream a)
13:46:24 <Taneb> Hello
13:48:18 <quintopia> why is that user-defined operator necessary?
13:49:05 <elliott> Because writing
13:49:14 <elliott> 0 :> 1 :> 2 :> 3 :> ...
13:49:19 <elliott> is nicer than writing
13:49:23 <elliott> Cons 0 (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 (...
13:49:24 <elliott> or even
13:49:30 <elliott> Cons 0 . Cons 1 . Cons 2 . Cons 3 $ ...
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14:30:43 <ion> :> also looks happier.
14:33:48 <ion> 0 `Cons` 1 `Cons` 2 `Cons` 3 `Cons` …
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15:30:37 <Taneb> Hey, Batman's on
15:31:03 <Taneb> They... actuall sing "nanananananana"
15:49:51 * john_metcalf is currently wearing a Batman shirt.
15:51:13 <Taneb> I reckon the riddler would do better if he didn't make riddles that tell batman the answer
15:53:54 <Taneb> "But Batman! You're dead!" "No I'm not"
16:01:52 <fizzie> Bat attack.
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16:27:51 <ais523> question just observed on gameshow: "Alphabetically, which month comes fifth?"
16:28:45 <ais523> <quintopia> … (+[<{}])%28 …
16:28:47 <ais523> that's… new
16:28:53 <ais523> care to explain the strategy?
16:29:40 <john_metcalf> January
16:29:44 <ais523> <quintopia> what does :> mean <-- sometimes I fly around in a spaceship…
16:29:53 <ais523> john_metcalf: indeed, although they only gave a few seconds to work it out
16:32:16 <Taneb> I'd have got that wrong
16:32:25 <Taneb> I forgot about August and June
16:32:31 <Taneb> And July
16:32:35 <Taneb> I'm not a Summer person
16:32:54 <Taneb> ais523, which gameshow?
16:33:21 <Taneb> The Chase?
16:33:57 <ais523> Taneb: yes
16:34:03 <ais523> did you check the UK TV schedules?
16:34:06 <ais523> or are you watching it yourself?
16:34:09 <Taneb> The former
16:34:19 <Taneb> I thought it was, but I couldn't remember the name
16:34:46 <Taneb> I watched a bit of it once when waiting for the chips to be ready at the local Chinese
16:34:50 <Taneb> The questions seemed easy
16:35:05 <ais523> they're notably easier in the endgame than in the rest of the show
16:35:10 <ais523> *noticeably
16:35:17 <ais523> this is the opposite of most programs, but it makes sense the way it works
16:38:00 <Taneb> Yeah, that'd be it
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16:44:18 <fizzie> ais523: I think the month is $(for mon in `seq -f'%02g' 12`; do env LC_TIME=C date --date=1984-$mon-01 +%B; done | sort | tail -n +5 | head -n 1), right?
16:44:21 <fizzie> Oh no, it didn't expand!
16:44:42 <fizzie> I am undone.
16:46:32 <fizzie> (It's December for the fi_FI locale.)
16:46:50 <fizzie> (Not that I have that in place, I just thought it'd be better to be explicit.)
16:48:48 <ais523> what months come before December in alphabetical order in Finland?
16:50:23 <fizzie> The full order is August, July, Februray, April, December, June, October, March, November, September, January, May.
16:50:43 <ais523> ah, you're translating the names into English
16:50:50 <fizzie> (Or, elokuu, heinäkuu, helmikuu, huhtikuu, joulukuu, kesäkuu, lokakuu, maaliskuu, marraskuu, syyskuu, tammikuu, toukokuu.)
16:51:06 <ais523> "English months by alphabetical order of their Finnish translations" is a far from intuitive order
16:51:27 <fizzie> It's one for the challenge level.
16:53:20 <fizzie> Many of them have a seasonally appropriate name. Like fi:loka is like mud, dirt and that sort of stuff, and October is one of the suckiest months w.r.t. weather. (Well, unless you like wet, I guess.)
16:53:29 <fizzie> And "kesäkuu" is just "summer month".
16:53:43 <fizzie> Also "syyskuu" -> "autumn month".
16:53:54 <fizzie> Curiously, there's no "winter month" or "spring month".
17:00:04 <fizzie> Okay, since I started... "elokuu" is like "crop month" (as in stuff-that-grows-in-fields), which I suppose... is something that's somehow relevant in August. (I'm not a country person.) "heinäkuu" is "hay month", I guess something similar. "helmikuu" is "pearl month", and I don't know what's up with that, maybe snow or ice or something? "huhtikuu" is from "huhta", a dated reference to a type ...
17:00:10 <fizzie> ... of cleared woodland, I suppose again something that's done in April. "tammikuu" is "oak month", and... I've got nothing. And so on and so forth; they're very farming-oriented, unsurprisingly.
17:17:41 <Deewiant> "elo" is from "crop" and not "life"?
17:18:05 <Deewiant> I guess it makes more sense that way.
17:18:13 <Deewiant> elonkorjuu and all.
17:18:54 <Vorpal> hm it seems playing gamecube games (in an emulator) without a gamepad is god damn impossible. It usually (depending on game) works fine with n64 games. The extra analogue stick on the gamecube makes it a lot harder to handle with keyboard and mouse
17:19:34 <Vorpal> hm and my joystick have digital hats, so that is useless as well.
17:22:19 <fizzie> Given how they predominantly seem to be about which farming-related activity is supposed to be performed in that particular month, I'd guess that way.
17:24:48 <fizzie> The gamecube controller always looks sorta-kinda weird to me. The four-button corner is so unsymmetric, and somehow I'm also weirded out by the fact that the analog sticks are in that unsymmetric way. (Xbox controller does that too.)
17:25:45 <fizzie> And it doesn't have the N64 controller saving-grace of having a place for the middle hand.
17:26:05 <itidus21> patents have lead to controllers being shitty
17:26:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
17:26:18 <itidus21> well can't entirely blame the patents
17:26:26 <Taneb> itidus21, I don't think it's much about patents
17:27:00 <itidus21> ok button positioning probably isn't
17:27:33 <itidus21> but everything else... ahhh.... i dunno what to say
17:27:39 <Taneb> Neither is analog stick positioning: Compare Playstation controller with Wii Classic Controller
17:27:57 <fizzie> Speaking of the N64 controller, I haven't ever figured out any sensible button mappings from the PS3 one to it, primarily because it has those four yellow semi-directional buttons. The four-button diamond (ABXY in Xbox, cross-square-triangle-circle in PS3) could handle those, but that'd leave the primary A and B buttons unclaimed.
17:27:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, which one do you think is better?
17:28:08 <Taneb> Playstation
17:28:14 <Vorpal> Taneb, PS1, PS2 or PS3?
17:28:16 <itidus21> cross shaped d-pad was patented a long time, both styles of vibration patented, various wireless control techs patented
17:28:26 <itidus21> i can't imagine what else
17:28:27 <Taneb> Vorpal, the only one I had was a PS2
17:28:32 <Vorpal> ah
17:28:54 <Taneb> I miss Ratchet and Clank 3
17:29:23 <fizzie> There's not really any radical differences between the PS controllers, except the PS1 default doesn't have any analog sticks.
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17:30:10 <fizzie> After they added those in the "Dual Analog" PS1 controller, it's mostly been just incremental fiddling.
17:31:48 <fizzie> I mean, look at the right-side sidebars of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualShock -- okay, the first one is light gray instead of dark, but that's about it.
17:32:46 <Vorpal> how much does one of those cost standalone?
17:32:48 <fizzie> Sure, they made the buttons pressure sensitive, and fiddled with the triggers, and added the motion sensing fluff, but the shape's the same.
17:32:58 <Vorpal> I guess it could be used for gamecube games.
17:33:16 <fizzie> I think mine (it's a DualShock 3) cost something like 40 eur?
17:33:33 <Vorpal> hm that is pretty steep
17:33:42 <Vorpal> anyway what about the six axis thingy?
17:33:45 <Vorpal> what was/is that?
17:34:15 <Vorpal> wasn't that Sony?
17:34:27 <fizzie> Plain "Sixaxis" was the first one where they added the thing where you can tilt it forward/backward/sideways/whatever and it senses that, but they also lost vibration while doing that.
17:34:48 <fizzie> DualShock 3 has both the vibration (from DualShock 2) and the motion-sensing (from Sixaxis).
17:34:49 <Vorpal> ah, does the dualshock 3 have all the features?
17:35:01 <Vorpal> right
17:35:07 <fizzie> Yeah, despite them originally saying it's physically impossible to have both or something. :p
17:35:16 <nortti> :p
17:35:26 <fizzie> Not that I have ever used the motion sensing for anything.
17:36:09 <fizzie> My default local (i.e. Finnish) computer-stuff webshop has a DualShock 2 for 24.90 eur and a DualShock 3 for 42.40 eur.
17:36:38 <Vorpal> so what does dualshock 2 miss compared to the third iteration (apart from the tilt stuff)?
17:36:51 <nortti> it is not wireless?
17:37:00 <Vorpal> that's all?
17:37:04 <Vorpal> usb is fine with me
17:37:05 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's that too.
17:37:41 <Vorpal> oh analogue triggers it seems
17:37:50 <fizzie> I think that's pretty much all. Except maybe the triggers in DS3 are "more analog"? The wiki sidebars list L2 and R2 as "pressure sensitive" for DS2 and "analog triggers" for DS3.
17:37:54 <fizzie> Right.
17:37:56 <Vorpal> well that might be useful. Surely there must be some cheaper third party stuff though
17:38:14 <Vorpal> OEM stuff is always more expensive in my experience
17:38:42 <fizzie> If you're going with third-party stuff, you might just consider one that's actually meant for plugging to a computer. The DS3 computer drivers are bit on the hacky side.
17:38:56 <fizzie> The Xbox wireless whatever is also more computer-friendly by default.
17:39:16 <fizzie> Or that's what I've heard, anyway.
17:39:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would need a bluetooth thingy for my computer if I went for wireless
17:39:39 <Vorpal> I'm not playing on a laptop. So that doesn't interest me.
17:40:05 <Vorpal> plus there is the hassle of dealing with batteries
17:40:18 <Vorpal> guess why I use USB mice still? Yeah
17:40:20 <fizzie> On the Windows side, they have that "XInput" thing that the Xbox controller does, and e.g. with Sonic Generations only gamepads doing XInput seem to really work well, so I have to keep the DS3 in Xbox emulation mode often.
17:40:43 <Vorpal> xbox emulation mode? It seriously has that in the hardware?
17:40:53 <fizzie> No, it's a thing of the Windows driver I'm using.
17:41:02 <Vorpal> ah
17:41:13 <fizzie> "MotioninJoy" something.
17:41:17 <Vorpal> so I wonder what gamepads for computers cost. Less I guess
17:41:32 <Vorpal> anyway there is the question of build quality as well...
17:41:43 <fizzie> Not that it really matters, except the games keep saying A, B, X and Y when they mean the PS3 symbols. But it's not like you'd really have time to go hunt-and-pecking for the button, so...
17:42:01 <Vorpal> but yeah I fail hard at playing wind waker using the keyboard and mouse. I can play ocarina of time just fine with such a setup
17:42:45 <fizzie> Official "Wireless Xbox 360" pad is 34.90 in the same shop. (I presume it's only optionally wireless like the DS3 and can be used plugged in, too.)
17:43:47 <fizzie> Bastion's Steam version only worked in x360 emulation mode too, I suppose many people are using those so it's what they test with. I don't have any first-hand quality-difference knowledge since I only have this one pad.
17:44:01 <Vorpal> "Wireless (proprietary 2.4 GHz protocol), USB" says wikipedia
17:44:39 <fizzie> I wonder if they sell the receiver (for computers) if it's some proprietary stuff, then.
17:44:59 <Vorpal> bastion seems suboptimal to play with a pad IMO. While bastion is essentially a twin stick shooter, the aiming would be far more precise using a mouse. And wasd for movement works fine (an analogue input would be better for that bit)
17:45:19 <fizzie> It's got some sort of an auto-aim thing in the pad control mode, I think.
17:45:27 <Vorpal> Anyway bastion is XNA. Probably the issue lies with XNA there
17:45:31 <Vorpal> really? urgh
17:45:53 <Vorpal> I don't like auto aim
17:45:55 <fizzie> Locks to the enemy you're approximately pointing towards, and then I think you can cycle with L1/R1. I really only played just through the intro so far.
17:46:09 <Vorpal> still far less precision I would guess.
17:46:21 <Lumpio-> Wonder what the bastion linux version runs on
17:46:33 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, mono, I checked
17:46:45 <Lumpio-> ah ok
17:46:56 <Lumpio-> I didn't know Mono did XNA
17:47:05 <fizzie> Mono itself doesn't, exactly.
17:47:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you /really/ need to play that game. It is awesome. But yeah, give mouse and keyboard a try. IMO it works perfectly fine and though I haven't tried pad I suspect it might be superior to a pad.
17:47:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Uplink... now has an iPad version
17:47:18 <fizzie> It was some project or another. MonoGame? Some silly name like that.
17:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure Uplink had typing bits.
17:47:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yep pretty sure it did.
17:47:44 <Vorpal> maybe they offer copy and paste or something?
17:47:46 <fizzie> (I didn't know the xbox controller has a hole in it for audio headsets. The More You Know.)
17:47:54 <Vorpal> heh
17:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, it definitely did; you need to type bank account numbers by hand, and withdrawal amounts, and bank IPs
17:48:10 <Vorpal> IPs yeah I remember
17:48:26 <Vorpal> I don't remember doing a bank mission in that. I guess I must have done though
17:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> So I guess the "hack into a bank and steal 1000000 credits before you even start the main plot" exploit is kind of messed up.
17:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ah, you missed out.
17:49:41 <fizzie> I think some Uplink speedrun (or funny-extra-story LP, or something) started with an initial bank run.
17:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes it gives you missions to "track a fraudulent transfer" or something, and the thing is that as part of it you *have* to hack into an account which will always have several hundred thousand credits.
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17:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah; I never actually played through it without doing a bank run.
17:50:19 <Taneb> Hello
17:50:34 <fizzie> "The Wireless Gaming Receiver (sold as "Crossfire Wireless Gaming Receiver" in the UK) allows wireless Xbox 360 accessories, such as wireless gamepads, racing wheels and headsets, to be used on a Windows-based PC." Right, they do sell that thing, I see.
17:51:45 <fizzie> I have a Bluetooth USB "dongle" here somewhere, I think it might well be the smallest "peripheral" I own. I can't even quite locate it right now, it's that small.
17:51:53 <fizzie> http://www.databest.fi/blueusb21.htm <- it's one of these.
17:59:28 <shachaf> @where pi_10
17:59:29 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
17:59:31 <shachaf> @where pi_11
17:59:31 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
17:59:34 <shachaf> So pi_11 is correct, I'm pretty sure, but it's this crazy double-exponential thing that isn't going to compute more than a few digits in practice ever.
17:59:37 <shachaf> Does it count for golfing?
18:00:42 <Taneb> I've got it up to the first 8
18:01:13 <shachaf> Good luck with 9.
18:01:17 <Taneb> Just got it
18:01:17 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:01:27 <shachaf> @@ @run @where pi_10
18:01:30 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
18:01:30 <elliott> Taneb: Using ghc -O2? If not, perhaps do so, for the constant factor improvement.
18:01:37 <Taneb> elliott, using GHCi
18:01:41 <elliott> shachaf: I would say it "counts", but dioesn't count.
18:01:47 <shachaf> elliott: THIS ISN'T ABOUT CONSTANT FACTORS
18:02:04 <shachaf> In order to get lambdabot to run it it needs to generate 74 digits or something.
18:02:10 <shachaf> > length "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062"
18:02:12 <lambdabot> 74
18:02:14 <shachaf> 75, I guess.
18:02:35 <elliott> @where e_10
18:02:35 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
18:02:36 <elliott> @where e_11
18:02:36 <lambdabot> I know nothing about e_11.
18:03:08 <shachaf> Progress: http://hpaste.org/70159
18:03:22 <shachaf> (It got broken sometime around the 10^6^n point.)
18:03:38 <shachaf> (But it's fixed now.)
18:06:23 <Taneb> It worked better when it was in GHCi
18:09:21 <elliott> Taneb: You probably forgot to turn off output buffering.
18:12:03 -!- MDoze has changed nick to MDude.
18:12:35 <shachaf> hSetBuffering Output TurnOff
18:14:07 -!- aloril has joined.
18:14:11 <Taneb> Yeah, that does better
18:15:24 <Taneb> @where pi_9
18:15:24 <lambdabot> I know nothing about pi_9.
18:15:29 <Taneb> @where e_9
18:15:30 <lambdabot> I know nothing about e_9.
18:15:36 <Taneb> :(
18:16:20 <Taneb> It's got to 7!
18:16:52 <Taneb> This reminds me of a quote
18:16:56 <Taneb> `quote pi
18:16:59 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 29)
18:17:07 <Taneb> `quote po
18:17:11 <HackEgo> No output.
18:17:16 <Taneb> `quote week
18:17:19 <HackEgo> 164) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS \ 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
18:17:25 <Taneb> `quote 397
18:17:29 <HackEgo> 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
18:17:58 <nortti> very good algorithm
18:18:10 <nortti> or very fast hardware
18:18:21 <Taneb> I suspect the former
18:18:33 <elliott> It was ICA compiled to hardware, I think.
18:19:10 <nortti> ICA?
18:19:36 <itidus21> i don't think programming will be any easier with a direct mind-computer interface
18:19:42 <elliott> Idealised Concurrent Algol.
18:20:08 <Taneb> itidus21, my ICT teacher had a mind-computer interface
18:20:14 <Taneb> It was innaccurate
18:20:24 <Taneb> Merlin could use it to play the helicopter game
18:20:33 <Phantom_Hoover> My uncle works on them, but only on the UI side.
18:20:36 <itidus21> learning is pain.
18:20:43 <itidus21> i dare even repeat: learning is pain.
18:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe he'd finished with that, ISTR asking about it.
18:21:00 <Taneb> itidus21, wrong. pain is learning.
18:21:07 <itidus21> so the fallacy is in "Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE."
18:21:10 <Taneb> My uncle works in a bank
18:21:22 <Taneb> All of my uncles work in banks
18:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> My aunt is an accountant.
18:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know if she works in a bank.
18:21:36 <Taneb> I have no blood aunts
18:22:01 <itidus21> things to learn... but...
18:22:09 <itidus21> many things are not worth knowing
18:22:23 <itidus21> it's mostly important to be able to survive a day at a time
18:22:40 <Taneb> I survive a week and a half at a time
18:23:12 <itidus21> little tips like "going without food and/or water and/or sleep and/or blood will kill you"
18:23:24 <itidus21> and/or breathing
18:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> um
18:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> iti
18:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> you
18:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> may be a vampure
18:23:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (its like a vampire but australian)
18:24:21 <itidus21> i produce my own blood, but still, i need to keep it
18:24:40 <oerjan> blood is just mates you eat, crikey.
18:25:20 <itidus21> i can't just for instance bleed and bleed all day
18:25:37 <itidus21> however...
18:25:48 <oerjan> confirmed: itidus21 is a man.
18:25:58 * oerjan swats himself -----###
18:26:08 <itidus21> i can probably live without legs or arms or sight or hearing or hair
18:26:46 <itidus21> and some vitamin and mineral deficiencies would kill me more slowly
18:26:46 <Taneb> itidus21, you'd get sunburnt without the last one
18:27:14 <itidus21> like i'm due to buy some vitamin d tablets
18:27:14 -!- boily has joined.
18:27:36 <Taneb> To avoid rickets?
18:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> To avoid crickets.
18:27:50 <itidus21> probably
18:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> They're deadly in Australia.
18:27:53 <itidus21> it's called ostelin
18:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> iti you realise there's this cheap vitamin d supplement called 'sunlight'
18:28:47 <itidus21> yes my doctor never fails to remind me that it only takes 15 - 30 minutes of sunlight a day
18:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course in Scotland we don't have any of that.
18:30:30 <itidus21> but the thought of having a machine fill head with data is disturbing
18:30:47 <itidus21> it would probably feel a lot like being in a video game
18:31:08 <itidus21> having no experiences on which to base your knowledge
18:31:28 <itidus21> learning by being told things
18:31:42 <itidus21> only being able to test what you are being told by thinking about it
18:32:42 <itidus21> sounds heavily biased towards the needs of society over the needs of the individual
18:33:16 <ion> I haven’t followed the discussion, but i wouldn’t mind being able to make queries and get responses just like in a REPL or with a web browser, but with direct neural communication with the computer.
18:33:58 <itidus21> theres nerves in your fingertips!
18:34:01 <itidus21> :P
18:34:09 <itidus21> and nerves in your eyes
18:34:31 <ion> OH, REALLY?
18:34:51 <itidus21> im completely against all this direct mind computer stuff
18:35:48 <fizzie> Ads in your optic nerve are the bomb.
18:37:10 <oerjan> fizzie: you mean, that makes you want to make bombs.
18:38:03 <fizzie> ICA is Independent Component Analysis and no silly Algol thing, also.
18:38:19 <fizzie> (Ambiguity in acronyms is bad.)
18:39:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they've also fed the bomb-making desires directly to my head.
18:41:18 <itidus21> i'm not inherently against augmented reality
18:41:54 <itidus21> never discount the effect of human nature upon the introduction of new technologies though
18:41:56 <fizzie> "Real fucking mind control from laser satellites", like a well-known thinker once said.
18:43:48 <fizzie> (It might not have been those exact words, I'm afraid.)
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18:44:52 <itidus21> fizzie: ahh the only reason they even care about your head is because the most dangerous person is one from inside the group
18:45:40 <itidus21> its no more different than bribing someone on the opposing sports team to injure one of his best teammates
18:46:01 <itidus21> except since a bribe is too expensive
18:46:10 <itidus21> and the expense would make the whole thing pointless
18:47:05 <itidus21> uh that is to say, "fed the bomb-making desires directly to my head" it's like finding a free way to bribe someone on the opposing sports team to injure one of his best teammates
18:48:15 <itidus21> well since bribing is too expensive and also it's open to free will and potential negotiations
18:49:56 <itidus21> but once everyone realized that there was technology actively doing such things, they would start changing the rules of the sport to accomodate for it to happen
18:50:52 <itidus21> like "ok we know our citizens are being brainwashed to build bombs, so we will perform scans on as many of them as possible"
18:51:32 <itidus21> or we will put up more security so that said citizen is less of a threat, we will strip him of more rights
18:52:00 <itidus21> phew.... </rant>
19:01:16 <itidus21> it's a bit like how an easy way to go to war would be random poisoning of water resevoirs
19:02:22 <itidus21> it's the same general principle
19:03:17 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure that's against the Geneva convention
19:03:46 <itidus21> i am speaking a bit out of my mind though
19:04:47 <itidus21> it seems to me that there is no long term process of relaxing security around the world
19:05:17 <itidus21> that it's all just on a downward spiral to big brother
19:06:08 <itidus21> but thats my naivety talking
19:07:01 <itidus21> but uh.. with fizzie's brainwashing comment it's like
19:07:09 <Taneb> Maybe you should rise up and take the power back?
19:07:19 <Taneb> It's time the fat cats had a heart attack
19:07:48 <Taneb> You know their time's coming to an end, so we need to unify and watch the flag ascend
19:07:51 <itidus21> "ahh.. who would be the best person to brainwash to kill that rebel leader? i know. lets brainwash his own family to do it"
19:08:19 <Taneb> They won't control us; we'll be victorious
19:08:21 <itidus21> "sure, it will mean families will no longer be able to trust each other, but at least we will have our victory"
19:09:36 <itidus21> things get bad when i rant on non-computing topics :-(
19:09:46 <Taneb> Counter balance this commotion
19:09:54 <Taneb> itidus21 isn't a droplet in the ocean
19:10:29 <itidus21> im a little bit insane
19:10:57 <itidus21> i'll be seeing the psychiatrist at my local doctor's office some time
19:11:12 <itidus21> psychologist/chiatrist whatever
19:12:18 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to delete User:Heliumint
19:13:06 <itidus21> my overall point is that you can analyze why some army might want to brainwash someone.. and when you do you for better or worse realize that it's just part of military life
19:13:07 <elliott> thx
19:13:35 <elliott> done
19:13:51 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:14:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:14:30 <itidus21> the fact that the cia spent so much effort on it is worrying to say the least.. i guess that means in reality all militaries have had equivalent programs which they were better at covering up
19:14:56 <itidus21> well all super power militaries
19:15:18 <itidus21> i somehow doubt burma had a program studying mind control
19:16:07 <oerjan> itidus21: um i think it was pretty well-established that the communists knew how to brainwash for decades...
19:17:03 <Taneb> One of the songs I quoted was named for a project such at that
19:17:07 <Taneb> MK Ultra
19:17:31 <itidus21> oerjan: i guess then that in reality the intent to brainwash is the critical thing.. rather than the means
19:17:42 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
19:17:58 <oerjan> seems elliott had enough
19:20:34 <itidus21> so, if what you are learning from the computer in a mind-computer interface is math then maybe it would be good
19:20:53 <itidus21> since math doesn't really need experience of reality
19:21:24 <itidus21> or does it
19:21:29 <itidus21> @-)
19:21:30 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
19:21:43 <itidus21> lambdabot: basically
19:21:52 <itidus21> @_@
19:22:36 <itidus21> that would bring with it a whole slew of other problems
19:23:15 <itidus21> but anyway, since the self, society, world and universe, is in constant change... then knowledge needs to be somewhat localized
19:23:27 <itidus21> like you have to know the language where you live
19:24:03 <itidus21> its no good being fluent in japanese and chinese and thai while living in australia if you don't know english
19:24:41 <itidus21> and since even the languages change... if you learned a language.. you would need updates
19:25:22 <itidus21> but maybe you wuoldn't learn language
19:27:28 <olsner> why would anyone learn language?
19:29:12 <itidus21> i paid too much attention to "<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 29)"
19:30:03 <olsner> `quote
19:30:03 <olsner> `quote
19:30:06 <HackEgo> 254) [on egojoust] <elliott> The fact is that EgoBot's % handling is O(slow) and O(big), and mine isn't.
19:30:18 <HackEgo> 465) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
19:30:31 <olsner> `quote
19:30:31 <olsner> `quote
19:30:32 <olsner> `quote
19:30:37 <itidus21> who the hell is this itidus20 guy
19:30:38 <HackEgo> 675) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
19:30:49 <HackEgo> 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum.
19:30:50 <HackEgo> 269) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
19:30:55 <olsner> itidus21: is that, like, your age in the nick?
19:31:06 <itidus21> nope... sadly not
19:32:46 <itidus21> glasgow must be a fun place
19:33:09 <itidus21> i know a lot of them hate billy connolly
19:34:01 <olsner> crime is one of those things that make places FUN
19:34:20 <itidus21> hmm
19:34:37 <itidus21> we're due for Grand Theft Auto: Glasgow
19:35:41 <itidus21> further reason for that being:
19:35:45 <itidus21> "Rockstar North (formerly DMA Design Ltd) is a British video game developer based in Edinburgh, Scotland, best known for creating the Grand Theft Auto"
19:36:22 <itidus21> @google grand theft auto glasgow
19:36:25 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICYt3MH0cwE
19:36:25 <lambdabot> Title: GTA: Glasgow - YouTube
19:36:50 <olsner> edinburgh, the other glasgow
19:38:24 <Taneb> I thought the other Glasgow was in Ukraine or somewhere
19:40:15 <olsner> everyone is glasgow
19:44:09 <itidus21> i hate watching youtubes where the people in the video are all cooler than me
19:46:12 <Taneb> I once played a cool person on stage
19:47:57 <olsner> does that make you cool?
19:48:22 <Taneb> No
19:48:28 <Taneb> It makes me glad I'm not
19:48:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
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19:50:29 <Taneb> For a start, those leather jackets are really, really hot on the inside
19:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, funnily enough, my visits to Glasgow have always been fairly boring.
19:58:57 <Vorpal> why place it in Britan? They already did that back in GTA 2 iirc? (I know there has been a GTA in London!)
19:59:41 <itidus21> #hexhamproblems There's no GTA:Hexham
19:59:43 <Vorpal> why not do Paris, or if they want an English speaking country (understandable), either Australia or New Zealand
20:00:14 <Vorpal> New Zealand nature can be quite amazing from what I seen from photos
20:00:55 <fizzie> Yes, and GTA games are all about beautiful landscapes.
20:01:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't San Andreas had a bit of country side in it
20:01:30 <fizzie> I've only played the first one. :/
20:01:33 <itidus21> video games are pretty much the greatest thing ever
20:01:34 <Vorpal> anyway you could do a city located in some amazing terrain. Like the side of a hill
20:01:52 <itidus21> i mean in the entire universe..
20:01:58 <oerjan> GTA:Venezia
20:02:03 * oerjan runs away
20:02:10 <oerjan> sorry, *Venice
20:02:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm that might be fun. After all there are already boats in GTA IV at least
20:02:32 <Vorpal> and helicopters too
20:02:49 <itidus21> the whole process of evolution(or whatever) from bacteria to fish to land creatures to primates to humans.. and through the stone age and the industrial age..
20:02:55 <Vorpal> my suggestion: drop all the straight avenue stuff and offer winding streets and what not
20:02:59 <itidus21> all so that video games could exist
20:03:11 <oerjan> (hint: the joke is that venice is a no-cars zone)
20:03:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, dude did that ever stop the protagonist in any GTA game? ;P
20:03:56 <itidus21> i'm doing data-nerd research on video games
20:04:08 <oerjan> i dunno, never played it
20:04:23 <fizzie> He needs cars around to steal, anyway.
20:04:29 <Vorpal> well yeah
20:04:30 <Vorpal> hm
20:04:37 <itidus21> oerjan: well what it did really well was create a believable city
20:04:55 <itidus21> the game is made or broken on the basis that you get the illusion of being in a city
20:04:57 <fizzie> oerjan: GTA:ISS -- Grand Theft Auto in space.
20:05:20 <itidus21> like.. since a lot of it is driving in traffic or exploring
20:05:34 <itidus21> the illusion holds up really well
20:05:55 <itidus21> in the 2d gta's it's a lot of fun waiting at traffic lights
20:06:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I do think that GTA set in a city on a hillside (possibly some Mediterranean setting) would be fun. Since you likely want a big city I would suggest making the old city (parts of the city core) like that. Then you could include suburbs that had a more modern layout better suited to high speed driving.
20:06:19 <itidus21> where else can you find a game which has cars at traffic lights.. that you can jump out and blow them up causing a pile up
20:06:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: monaco perhaps
20:06:32 <itidus21> well not quite a pileup
20:06:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm perhaps
20:06:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, it doesn't really in GTA IV IMO
20:06:36 <Taneb> Vorpal, who's winning your football? BBC is disappointingly ambiguous
20:06:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, the illusion is ruined by the relatively small size.
20:06:52 <itidus21> Vorpal: i think the originals are good though!
20:06:55 <Vorpal> And then you realize there is a lack of suburbs and what not
20:07:02 <Vorpal> I never played GTA 1 / GTA 2
20:07:05 <itidus21> ahhh
20:07:20 <itidus21> ive never really played 3/4
20:07:34 <oerjan> wait, are the swedes still playing? i heard they had no chance of advancing
20:07:43 <Taneb> They have to play
20:07:45 <Vorpal> itidus21, I played 4 and a bit of San Andreas which iirc is like 3.5 or something?
20:08:03 <olsner> oerjan: pretty sure swedes still play gta
20:08:20 <oerjan> but i guess they're not at the knock out stage
20:08:22 <Taneb> I think Sweden is winning this match
20:08:32 <Vorpal> err what match?
20:08:32 <Taneb> No, still group stages
20:08:38 <Taneb> Sweden vs France
20:08:46 <Vorpal> what sport?
20:08:52 <itidus21> gta1 is about fun i think. these modern ones seems to be about satisfying sadists
20:08:54 <Taneb> Association Football
20:09:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, "Association"?
20:09:09 <Vorpal> what?
20:09:26 <oerjan> Vorpal: your ability to ignore the world keeps flabbergasting us
20:09:28 <Taneb> As opposed to, eg. Rugby, American, Gaelic, Canadian, Aussie Rules, International
20:09:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, I know the word
20:09:38 <Taneb> The other Rugby
20:09:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, just not in the context of football
20:09:49 <Vorpal> I see
20:09:52 <itidus21> aussie rules football is basically only big in aus i guess
20:09:57 <itidus21> but in aus it is very big
20:10:03 <Vorpal> is it still the Europe-contest thingy
20:10:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: no i mean, not knowing there's a european championship going on...
20:10:07 <Taneb> It's called association football because it's administered by the Football Association
20:10:09 <Vorpal> I thought that was over already
20:10:13 <Taneb> itidus21, not in NSW or Queensland
20:10:28 <itidus21> Taneb: oh i forgot.. that it was originally VFL
20:10:41 <itidus21> :D
20:10:50 <itidus21> Victoria++
20:10:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't really pay any attention to such sports. And since I hadn't heard about it in a while on the front page of the daily news paper I simply assumed it was completed
20:11:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't read the sports pages
20:11:01 <oerjan> (mind you i manage to shock the neighbor lady with how little i follow soccer, so...)
20:11:11 <Vorpal> s/heard/seen/
20:11:44 <oklopol> i watched a five second hockey clip by accident
20:12:08 <itidus21> Taneb: i don't follow it closely but i could rattle off a fair list of aussie rules celebrities at least.. so i guess that gives me that "i know something because i live here" feeling
20:12:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, how tragic. Did you manage to recover from the shock?
20:12:42 <Taneb> itidus21, I think my cousin plays it at a High School level
20:12:47 <oklopol> just barely
20:13:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, really football (soccer for Americans) is an utterly boring sport. You get maybe at most 2-3 goals in a match. Most of the time there is nothing much going on, just players running from one end of the play-field to the other.
20:13:10 <itidus21> like.. tim watson, kevin sheedy, sam newman, eddie mcguire, jim stines(?), humm.. then my memory starts to become slower
20:13:22 <itidus21> mick malthouse
20:13:28 <Taneb> Vorpal, high-scoring does not mean interesting
20:13:34 <Taneb> Case in point: Test cricket
20:13:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, the issue is that there is nothing much interesting going on
20:13:55 <itidus21> steven kernighan, gary ablett
20:13:56 -!- likethepage has joined.
20:14:00 <Taneb> In those terms, maybe basketball is the best sport?
20:14:04 <Vorpal> I think if the play-field was made significantly smaller and the match time set to maybe 20 minutes in total, then the sport might have something going for it
20:14:11 <likethepage> Hello, Please check "Here Is My Vote" on facebook, like the page and join the movement. Please share with your friends. http://www.facebook.com/HereIsMyVote Best, Emilio
20:14:20 <Taneb> Or 5 a side football
20:14:25 <Taneb> `welcome likethepage
20:14:28 <HackEgo> likethepage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:14:28 <likethepage> found message from someone
20:14:35 <olsner> oerjan: why would anyone want to follow soccer? or even be aware that other people are doing it?
20:14:48 <likethepage> is this a programming language or a chat?
20:14:55 <Taneb> Kinda both
20:15:13 <likethepage> someone sent me a link i thought i would share here
20:15:18 <Vorpal> Taneb, Hm I do enjoy fast esports for example. I watched some Shootmania recently (that game is still in alpha) and the rounds lasted like less than 1 minute each. A lot of fast action going on.
20:15:29 <oerjan> olsner: mystery of the ages
20:15:40 <olsner> oerjan: indeed
20:16:28 <olsner> I aim to be as unaware as possible when it comes to sports, but unfortunately I have heard of this european thing and have even seen parts of several matches
20:16:33 <itidus21> Taneb: i kinda feel bad that i don't get involved in watching sport much
20:16:35 <Vorpal> olsner, oerjan: exactly
20:16:55 <Taneb> This reminds me, I need to actually try to watch a basketball match at some point
20:16:58 <itidus21> maybe i don't know how to really follow the action on a tactical level
20:17:42 <itidus21> like it bothers me i can't actually list aussie rules players.. and i don't know what they did
20:17:51 <Taneb> itidus21, the answer is don't. Pick a team and support them right or wrong
20:17:51 <itidus21> or why some of them became commentators
20:17:55 <Taneb> Like Geelong Cats
20:17:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, High level starcraft can be semi-interesting to watch. I'm not hugely into it. Probably because I don't know the game itself well enough (and I don't own Starcraft)
20:17:59 <Taneb> They're a team
20:18:06 <itidus21> ooh.. yes they are!
20:18:13 <Vorpal> it has a tendency to drag on sometimes though
20:18:40 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Taneb: i kinda feel bad that i don't get involved in watching sport much <-- why would you do that?
20:19:10 <Vorpal> why would you feel bad over that
20:19:14 <Vorpal> it makes no sense
20:19:16 <itidus21> i'm too removed from my society
20:19:31 <itidus21> i have no fodder for small talk
20:19:35 <Vorpal> itidus21, the weather
20:19:37 <Vorpal> that works
20:19:43 <itidus21> i don't even follow the weather
20:19:47 <Taneb> Vorpal, have you ever read the Last Continent
20:19:55 <itidus21> :P
20:19:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, of course
20:20:06 <Taneb> Talking about the weather to Australians just makes them angry
20:20:08 <Vorpal> Taneb, I own the complete set of Discworld books
20:20:14 <Vorpal> oh is he australian?
20:20:34 <itidus21> yup
20:20:42 <Taneb> He's twice as Australian as I am
20:20:47 <Taneb> Ish
20:20:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, also I thought that was just made up for the plot of the book... (Wrt the no-rain stuff, since it *does* rain in parts of australia)
20:20:58 <Taneb> Yeah, probably
20:21:01 <itidus21> but it means very little
20:21:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, also when you study CS at university, you can make small talk about programming
20:21:06 <Vorpal> it works for me
20:21:27 <itidus21> yes but.. i don't actually have any programming friends offline
20:21:33 <itidus21> never have at that
20:21:38 <Vorpal> itidus21, I discussed self-modifying .NET code as small talk with a guy at lunch once
20:21:41 <oerjan> blab bla bla blab bla blab haskell blab prepromorphism
20:21:43 <olsner> you can also join the emacs or vim faction
20:22:00 <olsner> oerjan: like totally zygohistomorphic
20:22:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, you will get them if you go for computer science or computer engineering at university though
20:22:21 <itidus21> hehe
20:23:03 <itidus21> it doesn't actually worry me
20:23:21 <itidus21> but i can't really say anything in a sports discussion cos i don't know anything
20:23:37 <itidus21> big bang theory had an episode about this
20:24:17 <Vorpal> Anyway that guy had a strange fixation of screwing over Windows C/C# programs as much as possible by doing weird things.
20:24:33 <itidus21> the guys girlfriend is gonna watch the game with her friends.. so he decides he will go along.. so he studies up on the rules of the sport.. and then when they're chilling it he starts over analyzing everything as it happens in the game
20:24:47 <Vorpal> Made interesting conversation to begin with, but after a couple of times it gets a bit boring
20:25:11 <itidus21> ^out
20:25:16 <Taneb> IT Crowd had an episode about this too
20:25:25 <Taneb> Except that ended up with a bank robbery
20:25:26 <Vorpal> heh, I haven't watched either of those
20:25:42 <itidus21> IT crowd is pretty cool
20:25:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, two TV shows about nerds
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20:25:52 <Vorpal> Taneb, I know that
20:26:00 <itidus21> the boss is so bad
20:26:08 <Vorpal> anyway I don't even have a TV currently.
20:26:12 <Taneb> Big Bang Theory is theoretical physicists, IT Crowd is tech support
20:26:59 <Vorpal> nor do I plan to get one. Why would I need one. I can watch a lot of the Swedish public service channel content over the internet (legally, and for free). And there is very little of that which I'm interested in
20:27:23 <Vorpal> mostly just the new year celebration program. That is kind of a Swedish tradition.
20:27:36 <olsner> well, TV = a big screen for a computer
20:27:40 <olsner> you can get one for that reason
20:27:55 <olsner> works for movies etc
20:27:57 <itidus21> olsner: well one hopes thats not true to the BBC
20:28:00 <Vorpal> olsner, the wrong connectors though. Neither DVI nor DP (which are the ones I have)
20:28:03 <Vorpal> olsner, also low DPI
20:28:10 <itidus21> heh
20:28:21 <olsner> from normal viewing distance you don't care about the DPI
20:28:30 <Vorpal> oh I and watch the valvaka (translates to "election wake", but with none of the morbid associations)
20:28:31 <olsner> and good TV:s have the right kinds of connections
20:28:35 <Deewiant> There are TVs with DVI connectors, probably DisplayPort as well.
20:28:40 <itidus21> i think the idea is to shut up and pay the BBC whether you have tv or not
20:28:45 <Deewiant> (Assuming that's what you meant by DP)
20:28:51 <fizzie> DVI pretty much equals HDMI except for the shape, and all TVs have *that*.
20:29:17 <Vorpal> olsner, err I don't have a sofa. I prefer to sit in an office chair. I have a really expensive comfy one with lots of levers.
20:29:27 <itidus21> in 2013 the queen decreed that Australians should also pay for the BBC
20:29:28 <Vorpal> so yeah I prefer my computer monitor
20:29:41 <likethepage> cool
20:29:45 <fizzie> A chair made out of nothing but levers.
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20:29:48 <likethepage> pay for the bbc
20:29:52 <itidus21> (bad joke)
20:29:55 <likethepage> next the US has to pay for BBC
20:30:01 <likethepage> after being liberated from UK
20:30:03 <likethepage> for 200 years
20:30:04 <itidus21> lol
20:30:08 <likethepage> (or so they say)
20:30:10 <itidus21> well why not
20:30:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, almost
20:30:18 <likethepage> bbc better than fox and nbc
20:30:23 <likethepage> it wouldnt be a waste
20:30:30 <likethepage> cnn too
20:30:33 <itidus21> likethepage: well they could work out some negotiation under the table
20:30:39 <likethepage> depends on what reports however
20:30:46 <likethepage> i think each service has their pros and cons
20:30:50 <Taneb> BBC World Service is like the world's TV channel
20:30:52 <itidus21> we'll fund the BBC if you host our military bases
20:30:57 <likethepage> lol
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20:31:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, for the English speaking part only I guess?
20:31:16 <likethepage> the problem with CNN and FOX is the newscasters become more like actors
20:31:20 <likethepage> rather than reporters
20:31:37 <likethepage> the show becomes centered on the reporter
20:31:42 <likethepage> rather than the content of the report
20:31:46 <likethepage> example
20:31:48 <itidus21> i havent actually seen american tv much.. like real american tv
20:31:56 <likethepage> 2009 Student Uprising in Iran
20:31:57 <itidus21> i hear about it offhand
20:31:59 <Taneb> Vorpal, primarily the war-torn bits where the only domestic channel is controlled by the government, I think
20:32:02 <likethepage> goes on the air for like a week
20:32:08 <likethepage> then michael jackson dies
20:32:15 <likethepage> and hes on the news for 6 months
20:32:24 <Vorpal> likethepage, for news I just prefer a news paper. Higher quality journalism. Especially higher quality investigative journalism.
20:32:24 <likethepage> what is wrong with this picture?
20:32:27 <Taneb> likethepage, that's the media in general
20:32:30 <Vorpal> at least with SvD in Sweden
20:32:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah
20:32:48 <likethepage> yeah or the blogosphere
20:33:36 <Vorpal> likethepage, not the way it was in the high quality morning news papers here.
20:33:50 <likethepage> where?
20:33:53 <Vorpal> Sweden
20:34:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, and Brits on holiday. It's in English, it's broadcast in Italy, and it's got less adverts than content
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20:34:10 <Vorpal> likethepage, michael jackson death was news like one day.
20:34:15 <Vorpal> and not major news iirc
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20:34:20 <fizzie> The Finnish national broadcast company (YLE) has this "TV Finland" for Finnish people who have the misfortune to live abroad.
20:34:27 <Vorpal> Taneb, heh
20:34:32 <fizzie> It's broadcast through some satellites.
20:34:43 <Vorpal> I think the Swedish Radio has some sort of international broadcast
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20:34:46 <Vorpal> not sure about the TV
20:34:48 <likethepage> I have to check it out.
20:34:57 <likethepage> Go to the nearest IKEA/
20:35:07 <Taneb> fizzie, when I learn Finnish, I may watch that
20:35:07 <likethepage> xD
20:35:10 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen it anywhere in e.g. any hotels, though, unlike BBC World which is just everywhere.
20:35:11 <Vorpal> likethepage, I doubt they have Swedish daily news papers there
20:35:14 <Vorpal> why would they
20:35:18 <likethepage> they should
20:35:21 <Vorpal> really?
20:35:26 <likethepage> why not?
20:35:32 <likethepage> i know they dont.
20:35:53 <likethepage> but they are all over the world, they should bring those newspapers along with them.
20:36:04 <likethepage> since we are on the topic of blogosphere
20:36:19 <Vorpal> likethepage, as far as I understood they try to sell Swedish stuff to non-Swedes abroad, rather than carter for the minor group that consists of Swedes living abroad.
20:36:31 <fizzie> Apparently they broadcast it through "THOR 5" and it's visible pretty much in Europe.
20:36:33 <likethepage> someone sent this link to me if you are all interested in checking out... www.facebook.com/hereismyvote
20:36:42 <likethepage> yeah i agree vorpal
20:36:52 <likethepage> they do not seem to care much for actual swedes
20:37:16 <likethepage> just market the "swedishness" and wait for the $$$ to roll in
20:37:32 <fizzie> They used to beam some radio channels into other satellites but they seem to have stopped that.
20:37:54 <Vorpal> likethepage, in Sweden IKEA pretty much just sell furniture and that sort of stuff. Sometimes there is a lunch restaurant in connection to it as well, and maybe one of those usual ice cream boxes at the checkouts. None of all that crazy stuff I hear they do abroad.
20:38:16 <Vorpal> well not just maybe. Ice cream boxes are everywhere
20:38:20 <fizzie> Though all the radio stations you can nowadays get through the interweb, which might explain that.
20:38:43 <oerjan> likethepage: i'm torn because you have joined the conversation - but if you paste that link again i _will_ ban you.
20:39:00 <fizzie> All Finnish IKEAs I've visited have had a restaurant. Not that it's a very special restaurant.
20:39:16 <likethepage> ah
20:39:20 <fizzie> You can get a meatball discount with the IKEA customer card dealie.
20:39:26 <likethepage> i am confused what is the rule for link posts?
20:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, is Krauta (spelling?) Finnish btw?
20:39:41 <likethepage> like if i want to share other article
20:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, they sell planks and nails and screws and so on
20:39:45 <likethepage> i will get banned?
20:39:46 <nortti> K-Rauta
20:39:52 <Vorpal> ah maybe
20:40:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: And yes.
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20:40:30 <Vorpal> likethepage, it is spammy. You are self promoting in a way similar to a spambot on a forum :P
20:40:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's part of the same corporate structure as the "KKK SuperMarkets" I mentioned before.
20:40:44 <likethepage> are spam bots that smart?
20:40:53 <Vorpal> I'm sure someone can explain that better
20:40:59 * Vorpal looks at oerjan
20:41:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm we don't have that chain
20:41:17 <likethepage> its not really self promotion however
20:41:23 <likethepage> it pertains to a cause lol
20:41:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, K-Rauta is the only one I know of
20:41:34 <Vorpal> likethepage, well, cause promotion then
20:41:48 <likethepage> human rights is not worthy?
20:41:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does "Rauta" mean?
20:41:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Iron".
20:41:56 <likethepage> i am not marketing gillete to you all
20:42:10 <likethepage> or sending garbage links with trojans
20:42:17 <Vorpal> likethepage, I wouldn't post links about amnesty international here either, unless that was relevant to the discussed topic
20:43:06 <Vorpal> (I haven't checked your link, I hope that was a different organisation than what you used)
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20:43:21 <Vorpal> It is unsolicited marketing. Whether it is a good cause or not is irrelevant when it is presented in that form
20:43:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Rautakauppa" (lit. "iron store") is the common Finnish term for a "hardware store" like that.
20:43:36 <likethepage> i see
20:43:47 <likethepage> it is not amnesty
20:43:54 <likethepage> it has to do with the blogosphere
20:44:02 <oerjan> likethepage: well both your nickname _and_ the link url look suspicious to me. but in general, links should be relevant to the channel. and moreover, it should be _very_ relevant if it's the first thing you say when you join here for the first time...
20:44:06 <nortti> also when speaking of IT gadgets "rauta" can mean "hardware"
20:44:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah. Here it is "byggvaruhandel" (lit. "building commodity trader" I guess?)
20:44:40 <Taneb> Okay, England and France have advanced to the knock out stages, at the expense of Ukraine and Sweden
20:44:42 <likethepage> ok oerjan
20:44:48 <likethepage> it does look spammy
20:44:54 <likethepage> to post link on first introduction
20:44:58 <Vorpal> btw, maybe we /should/ discuss something on topic for once?
20:45:14 <Vorpal> well we do when they happen to come up of course
20:45:23 <Vorpal> it is just that is never when new people join :/
20:46:03 <likethepage> lol
20:46:08 <likethepage> there was a deafening silence
20:46:11 <Vorpal> hah
20:46:39 <nortti> what is behind that link? (browser being in facebook blacklist, not having facebook account, etc.)
20:47:00 <Vorpal> yeah who has a facebook account? Google+ FTW! ;P
20:47:14 <likethepage> lol
20:47:17 <Vorpal> (I have a Google+ account. I don't use it. I don't have facebook or twitter or anything)
20:47:45 <fizzie> You don't need an account to see it, but navigating the 'book was too annoying with the phone to try to figure out what it was about.
20:47:54 <Vorpal> I have root access to a VPS running nginx, it is enough if I need to upload something that doesn't fit into a pastebin
20:48:01 <nortti> I have Google+ but google says my browser is no longer supported
20:48:10 <fizzie> I've got a G+ thing too. I think I added a maybe-elliott to my circles.
20:48:27 <Vorpal> nortti, what browser is that!?
20:48:38 <nortti> links2
20:49:18 <fizzie> The maybe-elliott had the default silhouette avatar picture as avatar, except it was upside down, as I recall.
20:49:27 <oerjan> ok, the link is about whether iran should be an islamic republic (NO)
20:49:28 <Vorpal> Issue with facebook. If I go to like a public profile page and there are some truncated (by "...") posts in the section where stuff from their friends show up, it wants me to login to read what is behind that "..."
20:49:30 <Vorpal> HOWEVER
20:49:35 <Vorpal> you can just do view source
20:49:40 <Vorpal> and the full message is there
20:49:47 <oerjan> that's _very_ off-topic i'd say.
20:49:59 <oerjan> and a lot of comments in arabic writing.
20:50:06 <oerjan> *alphabet
20:50:16 <oerjan> i guess it's probably farsi rather than arabic
20:51:02 <Taneb> I think the maybe elliott added me
20:51:15 <Taneb> Or trapped me in a circle or whatever
20:52:29 <nortti> hmm.that facebook page shows me login dialog and nothing else
20:52:49 <likethepage> this one?
20:52:51 <Vorpal> I would personally advise against doing politic opinion in this channel in general. Politic analysis is fine I guess if there is nothing more interesting going on. (example: "Hey, X won the election in Greece, now what is going to happen to the Euro I wonder?")
20:52:51 <oerjan> likethepage: it's the kind of link that wouldn't be an issue if you'd been a regular here for months, but which definitely is an issue when you do it on your first day.
20:53:02 <likethepage> ah
20:53:17 <likethepage> i thought conversation changed by now lol
20:53:19 <nortti> and spam it twice in first hour
20:53:35 <Vorpal> no repeating indeed I would say
20:53:46 <likethepage> yeah
20:54:34 <Vorpal> speaking of which, /has/ any conclusion been reached with respect to the election in Greece?
20:55:10 <likethepage> looks like
20:55:15 <likethepage> they may be on the Euro
20:55:23 <likethepage> however what evades me
20:55:31 <likethepage> is that the UK was never on the Euro
20:55:37 <likethepage> so why should Greece?
20:56:03 <likethepage> it seems to be that nothing good has come of the Euro.
20:56:04 <Taneb> likethepage, the UK got a special opt-out
20:56:10 <Vorpal> they are on the Euro already. The issue is that they didn't manage finances correctly. So they are essential bankrupt
20:56:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: if we disallowed it altogether we'd have to ban pikhq long ago :P
20:56:24 <Vorpal> (apart from various emergency things)
20:56:31 <likethepage> Here is the issue
20:56:32 <Taneb> Along with one of Denmark and Sweden, the other of which is sorta never going to use the Euro anyway
20:56:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh yeah right. I said I would advise against it
20:56:38 <likethepage> they were not on the Euro
20:56:43 <likethepage> they joined the euro
20:56:46 <likethepage> Greecee
20:56:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, no Sweden didn't get an opt-out
20:56:53 <Taneb> Denmark, then
20:57:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, iirc we just lie and say we are not fulfilling the requirements XD (This *may* be an urban myth, I don't know)
20:57:13 <oerjan> denmark has an opt-out, sweden is using tactics to avoid the issue
20:57:15 <likethepage> the point is prior to the Euro Greece was not doing well but they were not doing terrible
20:57:40 <Taneb> Vorpal, I knew that it was Denmark and Sweden, but not which way round
20:57:57 <Vorpal> I wish we would have gotten an opt-out though
20:58:01 <Vorpal> too late now
20:58:08 <Vorpal> we just have to continue like this I guess
20:58:22 <likethepage> have to wait and see
20:58:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you happen to know the exact form of that tactic? Is it just what I said above?
20:58:31 <likethepage> regardless of which econoomic stan dard
20:58:32 <oerjan> likethepage: presumably greece thought it would be good to join, even if they had to lie to achieve it
20:58:34 <Taneb> Vorpal, assassinate all the pro-euro greek polititians
20:58:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: more or less, i think...
20:58:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, I think that is the reverse of what the rest of Europe wants?
20:59:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, heh
20:59:06 <Taneb> Yeah, but it's what Sweden wants!
20:59:27 <Vorpal> is it?
20:59:32 <Vorpal> Don't think so?
20:59:46 <oerjan> Vorpal: except i think it's probably _technically_ not a lie that you are not fulfilling the technical requirements - but that's not because you can't, but because you're not at all _trying_ :P
21:00:15 <Vorpal> basically Greece would go bankrupt if they left the Euro. Currently they are managing to avoid that thanks to various emergency solutions.
21:00:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
21:00:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Perhaps even intentionally not fulfilling them. :)
21:01:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the technical requirements then? I thought it was something wrt. the budget deficit or something?
21:01:34 <Vorpal> anyway it would be political suicide for any Swedish government to try to introduce the Euro. Especially now.
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21:02:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm sure wikipedia knows all...
21:02:43 <Vorpal> There was a referendum about this a few years ago as well. Though iirc it was not mandatory for them to follow. Just "vägledande" (whatever that translates to!)
21:02:58 <oerjan> "advising" ?
21:03:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Could you gloss the morphemes?
21:03:02 <Vorpal> possibly?
21:03:03 <oerjan> *advisory
21:03:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, what?
21:03:31 <Vorpal> dammit I'm having to use google translate a lot when discussing this. I can manage just fine when discussing computers and such. But politics? Nope.
21:03:34 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:03:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Gloss" in this context means to give a short word or phrase describing it, "morpheme" means, well, the individual parts composing a word.
21:03:57 <oerjan> i don't think the morphemes help much, it means "way guiding"
21:04:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Alas, not much help.
21:04:16 <Vorpal> (It isn't that I don't know the words. I recognize which one is the correct when google translate gives me the list. I just can't actively remember the translations)
21:04:20 <pikhq> Though in this particular context "advisory" at least makes *sense*.
21:04:25 <oerjan> but i think advisory is what is meant
21:04:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah probably advisory
21:04:40 <Vorpal> google translate suggested "indicative" which just sounded wrong
21:05:42 <Vorpal> hm if I put in "vägledande folkomröstning" it suggests "consultative referendum"
21:05:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, does that make any sense?
21:05:47 <oerjan> afair all norwegian referenda are "veiledende", as there is nothing in the constitution requiring parliament to follow them
21:05:48 <Taneb> So, it's pretty much a government-backed survey
21:05:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, certainly.
21:06:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, more than it does to me
21:06:03 <oerjan> oh right consultative may be more precise
21:06:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, yeah
21:06:38 <oerjan> (although there have been suggestions to change the constitution about this, i don't _think_ they have done so)
21:06:48 <Vorpal> that was funny you know. We voted no to nuclear power back in the 70s or 80s iirc. But since it was just consultative they did the opposite thing.
21:07:03 <pikhq> And in the US there are no federal referenda, and the state-level ones vary by state...
21:07:20 <Vorpal> but yeah I think all our referenda are consultative as well
21:07:29 <pikhq> (hell, there's technically no national *elections* at all)
21:07:45 <Vorpal> but usually it is political suicide to go against the result of a referendum
21:09:09 <Vorpal> iirc the referendum about nuclear power was along the lines of "should we shut down the ones we have within x years and not build any new", so I guess they counted on people forgetting the whole thing when it was actually time to shut them down.
21:09:13 <Vorpal> but don't quote me on that
21:09:58 <pikhq> In fact, I think it's technically permissible for a state of the US to be a straight monarchy, with only the Representatives elected.
21:10:02 <oerjan> "Sweden maintains being part of ERM II is a required criterion and joining ERM II is voluntary,[3][4] giving Sweden a de facto opt out."
21:10:08 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro
21:10:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah thanks
21:10:31 <likethepage> lol
21:10:44 <likethepage> thanks for the page I "like"
21:10:50 <likethepage> xD
21:10:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah nice
21:11:23 <likethepage> first there was askjeeves, then there was ask, now there is wikipedia. wooo
21:11:27 <pikhq> Oh, wait, 17th amendment estabilishes direct election of Senators, too.
21:11:52 <pikhq> So, Congress must be elected, nobody else *has* to be.
21:12:02 <nortti> wow
21:12:14 <nortti> that is screwed up
21:12:28 <pikhq> The President is elected by electors, appointed by each state in a manner they choose.
21:12:53 <Vorpal> it is funny that our current currency is a result of an old Nordic monetary union (which didn't last)
21:13:03 <Vorpal> the name of it that is
21:13:07 <shachaf> current currency.
21:13:07 <pikhq> And the federal government does not regulate how each state does any of their own elections, except for antidiscrimination stuff...
21:13:10 <shachaf> currency.
21:13:17 <nortti> pikhq: do electors have to vote for the candidate people voted for?
21:13:29 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm?
21:13:39 <pikhq> nortti: The electors do not even have to be *voted for by people*.
21:13:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: Are you in a golfing mood?
21:13:50 <shachaf> @where pi_10
21:13:51 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
21:13:52 <pikhq> nortti: But, most every *state* mandates that, yes.
21:13:53 <shachaf> @where pi_11
21:13:53 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
21:14:07 <Vorpal> shachaf, no. Also it was needed since I discussed an historical context.
21:14:19 <pikhq> nortti: It would be permissible for the King of $state to appoint electors to vote for a President.
21:14:41 <pikhq> And before 1913 it was also permissible for the King of $state to appoint senators.
21:14:54 <nortti> why isn't democracy mandated more than that?
21:14:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, they used to have kinds?
21:15:02 <Vorpal> kings*
21:15:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: No.
21:15:05 <Vorpal> I kind of doubt that
21:15:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: But it's permitted.
21:15:31 <pikhq> nortti: The United States *de jure* functions more like a slightly stronger EU than as a single nation.
21:15:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, in practise it is a lot stronger than that though
21:15:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: This is why I specified de jure. :)
21:16:08 <nortti> oh
21:16:29 <likethepage> the whole idea of EU seems somewhat illogical
21:16:29 <pikhq> I think the main de jure difference is member states are forbidden from engaging in declarations of war or treaties.
21:16:37 <likethepage> what used to be former waring nations
21:16:47 <likethepage> for example
21:17:06 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_accessories#Messenger_Kit <-- why is this a thing?
21:17:11 <likethepage> even within the nations
21:17:26 <likethepage> there is a lack of continuity
21:17:49 <likethepage> if on the most basic level there is conflict
21:18:04 <pikhq> If it weren't for the ban on treaties, I think you could have something be both a state in the US and a nation in the EU.
21:18:05 <likethepage> then how can the EU span several nations
21:18:39 <oerjan> likethepage: um avoiding new wars was a main _reason_ for the EU...
21:19:10 <likethepage> yes but it does not make sense
21:19:23 <likethepage> you have almost wars within these supposed "nations"
21:19:35 <likethepage> car bombs in spain by extremist factions of the basque countyr
21:20:01 <Vorpal> that is not from a separate country
21:20:02 <oerjan> well too much is swept under the carpet
21:20:08 <Vorpal> it is a county within Spain
21:20:13 <likethepage> greece always had several groups residing within this "nation"
21:20:15 <Vorpal> and yeah it is like IRA or such
21:20:24 <likethepage> they claim to be 100% homogenous
21:20:35 <likethepage> what is greek?
21:20:44 <likethepage> it always was a melting pot
21:20:56 <likethepage> and now it becomes "european" or "european-like"
21:20:58 <pikhq> likethepage: Yeah yeah yeah, hardly anything's an actual nation-state.
21:21:15 <likethepage> great ideas came from greece
21:21:20 <likethepage> but as a practical state
21:21:27 <likethepage> its internal issues must be resolved first
21:21:32 <Vorpal> likethepage, originally EU started as a trade treaty to prevent Germany and France from going to war again after the second world war pretty much
21:21:49 <likethepage> and look at the direction it is going
21:21:59 <likethepage> if they are goin to include turkey they might as well include Iran
21:22:00 <Vorpal> well so far it managed to prevent a war
21:22:35 <Vorpal> well, they are setting certain requirements that Turkey would have to fullfill first.
21:22:49 <Vorpal> They are not going to accept them in their current state
21:22:58 <likethepage> Iran or Turkey
21:23:08 <Vorpal> Turkey. And hardly Iran either
21:23:24 <Vorpal> besides Turkey is at least partly in Europe. Iran is not. Calling it EU would be silly then
21:23:32 <likethepage> not exactly
21:23:34 <Taneb> Israel and Morocco both applied to join the EU
21:23:38 <likethepage> Iran Armenia
21:23:47 <likethepage> share a history with the rest of europe
21:23:52 <likethepage> Persia and Greece
21:23:58 <likethepage> traded with each other
21:24:01 <likethepage> fought with each other
21:24:08 <likethepage> had a cultural exchange
21:24:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Europe" as far as the EU is concerned is whatever the European Council feels is European.
21:24:19 <likethepage> europe in theory
21:24:22 <Taneb> likethepage, so does North Africa
21:24:24 <likethepage> could extend as far as india
21:24:29 <Vorpal> right. So what? Sweden fought Denmark before in history. Later on we supported them when they fought Nazi Germany
21:24:40 <Taneb> And bits of North America
21:24:46 <pikhq> "Europe" de jure could include all locations.
21:24:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, hah
21:25:53 <pikhq> *grin*
21:26:14 <pikhq> With consent of Congress, a state can enter in compacts or agreements with foreign powers.
21:26:21 <pikhq> I think in theory a state could join the EU.
21:26:28 <nortti> :P
21:26:33 <pikhq> But could not make the Euro legal tender.
21:26:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm not sure the EU would be all that happy about it though?
21:26:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Almost certainly not.
21:26:47 <Taneb> It'd be interesting, certainly
21:26:58 <Taneb> If a state also entered the Schengen area
21:27:14 <Taneb> There's the US's border control pretty much destroyed
21:27:14 -!- itidus20 has joined.
21:27:32 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:27:38 <Taneb> itidus21, can I borrow your cloning machine?
21:27:42 <pikhq> Taneb: Not really. As far as I can tell, states *may* estabilish controlled borders.
21:27:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah the issue is that Schengen mandates border control against non-Schengen
21:28:04 <elliott> likethepage: are you new?
21:28:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, does it? Hmm
21:28:15 -!- MDude has joined.
21:28:16 <Taneb> pikhq, it'd still be interesting
21:28:30 <likethepage> not to irc
21:28:34 <likethepage> but this forum yes
21:28:38 <elliott> `welcome likethepage
21:28:41 <HackEgo> likethepage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:28:45 <Taneb> elliott, I already did that
21:28:48 <elliott> oh
21:28:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, yep. IIRC Switzerland joined and one of those countries that are too tiny to be on a map which have borders with Switzerland got annoyed due to the queues when commuting.
21:29:05 <Vorpal> Liechtenstein perhaps?
21:29:06 <Vorpal> not sure
21:29:09 <Vorpal> this was a few years ago
21:29:19 <Taneb> It'd have to be Liechtenstein
21:29:27 <Taneb> It's nowhere near Andorra
21:29:28 <oerjan> pikhq: isn't that against the rule that interstate trade is only federally regulated?
21:29:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, right
21:29:44 <pikhq> oerjan: It's not that interstate trade is *only* federally regulated.
21:29:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It's that interstate trade *may be* federally regulated.
21:30:09 <itidus20> Taneb: yes but only if you will use it
21:30:21 <pikhq> oerjan: States are forbidden from imposing taxes or duties on their borders.
21:30:37 <pikhq> ... Without consent of Congress.
21:30:47 <Vorpal> aww
21:30:57 <itidus20> (. | for good. | for evil. | for good or evil. )
21:31:04 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:31:16 <Taneb> itidus20, what's the one so I can have a clone of my own?
21:31:25 <Taneb> Probably for evil
21:31:57 <Vorpal> itidus20, isn't there an option for true neutral!?
21:31:58 <itidus20> i didn't want to think
21:32:12 <itidus20> Vorpal: well.. thats the problem with these regex's
21:32:13 <pikhq> So, it is theoretically possible, I *think*, for you to hack a state into being a full member of the EU, modulo the Eurozone.
21:32:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:32:26 <pikhq> And that's even feasible if the US adopts the Euro.
21:32:41 -!- MDoze has joined.
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21:32:50 <kmc> anything in law is "theoretically possible"
21:32:55 <Taneb> pikhq, didn't the states of the early US all have their own currency?
21:32:58 <kmc> it's just made up as you go
21:33:01 -!- lexande has joined.
21:33:11 <kmc> Taneb: yes, and also many foreign currencies were in use
21:33:12 <Vorpal> itidus20, hey just do (true neutral|(lawful|neutral|chaotic) (good|neutral|evil))
21:33:23 <pikhq> Taneb: Yes, but those were all either direct gold or silver, or not legal tender.
21:33:25 <Vorpal> (that allows neutral neutral, but I seen that used, so meh)
21:33:45 <Taneb> Hmm
21:33:49 <pikhq> Taneb: States can only make gold or silver legal tender. But, there's nothing banning them from non-tender currencies.
21:34:22 <Taneb> Is there anything against a state passing a law requiring everyone to accept Euros?
21:34:54 <kmc> pikhq: it depends what you mean by "early US"
21:35:02 <itidus20> "<Taneb> itidus21, can I borrow your cloning machine?" Taneb: yes but only if you will use it (. | for good. | for evil. | for good or evil. | for (true neutral|(lawful|neutral|chaotic) (good|neutral|evil)).)
21:35:07 <itidus20> or something to that effect
21:35:08 <kmc> i think under the Articles of Confederation, state banknotes were widely used
21:35:13 <kmc> "The Continental Congress printed paper money which was so depreciated that it ceased to pass as currency"
21:35:16 <pikhq> "No State shall [...] make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts"
21:35:21 <Vorpal> itidus20, hey you should remove the other options
21:35:36 <Taneb> itidus20, can I use it for neutral good?
21:35:37 <Vorpal> itidus20, you either go for the DnD system completely or you don't (And DnD 4 doesn't count)
21:35:44 <pikhq> Aw, "No State shall [...] coin Money"
21:35:52 <itidus20> Vorpal: ahh because the | implies the or
21:35:56 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:36:14 <Taneb> pikhq, doesn't mean they can't force places to use it?
21:36:14 <Vorpal> itidus20, yes but saying "for evil" doesn't make sense here
21:36:25 <Taneb> And wait, are all the mints in DC or what?
21:36:32 <Vorpal> itidus20, you immediately asks if it is for chaotic evil or lawful evil
21:36:41 <itidus20> ok
21:36:41 <Vorpal> or perhaps even neutral evil
21:36:47 <itidus20> its all too much for me
21:36:47 <Vorpal> ask yourself*
21:36:52 <Vorpal> itidus20, never played DnD?
21:37:09 <pikhq> Taneb: There's nothing forbidding minting happening *in* a state.
21:37:15 <pikhq> It just can't be done *by* a state.
21:37:17 <Taneb> Oh, okay
21:37:19 <Vorpal> in that case you could go play a game based on DnD (such as NWN)
21:37:26 <Taneb> EnE
21:37:33 <itidus20> the joke for me was "yes but only if you will use it." which breaks the expectation of the word for
21:38:24 <Taneb> Oh, that works to
21:38:25 <Taneb> o
21:38:40 <pikhq> Given how much *other* "consent of Congress" stuff happening, I think it would work just fine if the US Mint just minted Euros for states in the EU.
21:38:44 <itidus20> since it is heavily implied that a cloning machine's usage has questionable allegience
21:39:10 <Taneb> Goodnight, all
21:39:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:39:55 <lexande> pikhq, err, why would the US Mint do that?
21:40:17 <pikhq> lexande: By "states in the EU" I mean "states of the US that are also in the EU".
21:40:28 <pikhq> lexande: I am discussing a really insane hypothetical.
21:40:37 <itidus20> like normally you would reply "yes but only if you will use it." if someone asks if you should buy something.. such as a bike
21:41:12 <itidus20> Should I buy that abflexer? Sure, but only if you will use it.
21:41:45 <lexande> i think the Canadian mint prints money for various third world countries
21:41:48 <lexande> under contract
21:42:19 <itidus20> Can you teach me kung fu? Yes, but only if you will use it for good.
21:43:29 <itidus20> Master, teach me in the ways of the dark side of the force! OK, but only if you will use it for evil.
21:45:23 <lexande> pikhq, I think the existing EU treaties limit its membership to things actually in europe
21:45:57 <pikhq> lexande: Actually, they restrict membership to "European" countries, where "European" means "European in the judgement of the Council of Europe".
21:46:29 <lexande> where the latter pretty much means "actually in europe"
21:46:33 <elliott> lexande: there is a non-European country in the EU
21:46:35 <elliott> i forget which.
21:46:39 <lexande> cyprus?
21:46:43 <elliott> yes, I think
21:46:53 <likethepage> which part
21:46:56 <likethepage> north or south
21:46:57 <lexande> southern
21:47:03 <lexande> well, legally all of it
21:47:23 <lexande> but represented by the Republic of Cyprus government which only controls the southern two-thirds
21:47:58 <lexande> however the Republic of Cyprus government was therefore forced to greatly loosen restrictions at its border with the TRNC
21:48:10 <pikhq> lexande: Please, I'm discussing a hypothetical scenario where Congress consents like a dozen different ways to a state engaging in a treaty that requires it to estabilish border controls and have a different currency.
21:48:18 <pikhq> Adding one more impossibility is not a big deal.
21:48:57 <oerjan> elliott: fix
21:48:59 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9169046/writing-in-pointfree-style-f-x-g-x-x/9169089#9169089 sometime
21:49:14 <lexande> because the territory of the TRNC is legally also "in the EU" and under the EU treaties Cyprus can't interfere too much with the free movement of labour and capital "within the EU"
21:49:19 <elliott> oerjan: ok
21:49:30 <elliott> oerjan: hi
21:49:34 -!- variable has joined.
21:49:41 <elliott> lexande: cute!
21:51:08 <lexande> on the other hand, Cyprus keeps saying they're going to join the Schengen area
21:52:17 <lexande> and the other Schengen states keep pointing out that Cyprus doesn't even control many of the points of entry to its "territory", much less have them up to standard for external schengen borders
21:56:17 <oerjan> ...what i'm missing here is the part which forbits northern cypriots from trading with the EU
21:56:31 <oerjan> if they're supposedly in it
21:56:39 <oerjan> *forbids
21:58:33 <oerjan> conveniently wikipedia also has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus_and_the_European_Union
21:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
21:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> why is everyone discussing the eu
21:59:05 <olsner> I have no idea!
21:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ok
21:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> only one option
21:59:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the eu is bad because britain should stand proud and alone
21:59:46 <likethepage> i think it has to do with me bringing up the topic of indo-european struggle
22:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> damned indos
22:00:00 <likethepage> for secular democracy and posting a link
22:00:10 <oerjan> <Vorpal> speaking of which, /has/ any conclusion been reached with respect to the election in Greece?
22:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> putting themselves before us europeans
22:00:21 <likethepage> they are "european"
22:00:23 <likethepage> last i heard
22:00:29 <likethepage> they will stay in the Eurozone
22:00:34 <likethepage> to their own detriment
22:00:43 <likethepage> Spain should pull out
22:00:46 <oerjan> Vorpal was of course triggered by likethepage as implied
22:00:57 <likethepage> their exports were doing great until they joined
22:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm ok
22:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> likethepage, stop bashing the eu you right-wing fanny
22:01:30 <likethepage> lol
22:02:02 <likethepage> it seems benificial for other nations
22:02:11 <likethepage> but south europe seems to be damaged by it
22:02:14 <likethepage> significantly
22:02:17 <lexande> let's go to greece!
22:02:18 <likethepage> food is very expensive
22:03:06 <elliott> 20:49:18: <fizzie> The maybe-elliott had the default silhouette avatar picture as avatar, except it was upside down, as I recall.
22:03:11 <oerjan> likethepage: the germans are going to claim it's because south europe doesn't have fiscal responsibility.
22:03:12 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that's me. I deleted my Google+ account.
22:03:19 <elliott> The avatar has stayed, though, and now shows in Gmail.
22:03:31 <likethepage> they dont have fiscal responsibility
22:03:59 <likethepage> and they joined a very experimental currency
22:04:09 <likethepage> so that is bound to incur problems
22:04:18 <oerjan> but spain specifically also had the real estate bubble from hell
22:04:25 <likethepage> yeah
22:04:37 <likethepage> and recovering from a civil war
22:04:43 <oerjan> which _should_ worry us norwegians, who have one which hasn't burst yet
22:05:08 <oerjan> likethepage: um that was like 70 years ago.
22:05:53 <nortti> pre-ww2
22:06:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> The avatar has stayed, though, and now shows in Gmail. <-- Can't you change it?
22:07:05 <Vorpal> <oerjan> likethepage: the germans are going to claim it's because south europe doesn't have fiscal responsibility. <-- that is kind of true though
22:08:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have the oil though. You don't need to worry. And even if it went to hell you are not in the Euro, so the collateral damage will be somewhat limited. So it is all well and good anyway
22:09:45 <nooga> greetings from Poland
22:09:46 -!- david_werecat has joined.
22:09:49 <nooga> yuck
22:10:29 <lexande> spain had reasonable levels of fiscal responsibility before the crash
22:10:37 <lexande> they're just screwed over because the ECB are jerks
22:11:42 <Vorpal> lexande, maybe. Not Italy and Greece though
22:11:59 <Vorpal> also why was the real estate bubble allowed to grow like that
22:12:06 <lexande> italy is/was kind of borderline
22:12:29 <lexande> greece's fiscal situation was truly bad
22:13:11 <lexande> the others could be fine with monetary stimulus, but the ECB only cares about germany
22:14:31 <lexande> (so norway does not need to worry)
22:18:49 <oerjan> norway isn't an EU or Eurozone member. our problem is that the real estate bubble implies we should increase interest rates, but the crisis in the rest of the world implies we need to keep them down not to destroy all exports other than oil...
22:19:17 <oerjan> and the central bank obviously focuses more on the latter, leaving the bubble to keep growing...
22:19:37 <Vorpal> heh
22:20:44 <fizzie> How's it going with your oil, anyway? Still flowing?
22:21:13 <fizzie> http://www.energyinsights.net/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4690/oil-production-norway.gif looks kinda down-slopey.
22:21:18 <oerjan> sure, i think there've even been some recent major discoveries, although there _is_ a general transition to natural gas
22:21:32 <nooga> lucky bastards
22:21:44 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2---(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:21:47 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 56.7
22:21:54 <oerjan> david_werecat: HEY NO BEING ON TOPIC
22:22:02 <nooga> we live on a sea of gas here
22:22:10 <david_werecat> But it's first place...
22:22:13 <nooga> but the only way to obtain it is fracking
22:22:18 <oerjan> david_werecat: OK THEN
22:22:27 <oerjan> wait, i thought quintopia had got his up to 60...
22:22:42 <oerjan> i guess you pushed him down then.
22:22:47 <david_werecat> Indeed.
22:22:49 <nooga> and poland sold the mining sites to the USA for nothing
22:23:10 <david_werecat> I just don't know how it'll work with the new scoring system.
22:23:29 <oerjan> david_werecat: you're in some kind of mutual optimization game, then? does it converge? :P
22:24:03 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be hilarious if it resulted in exponentially increasing source text length.
22:24:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Soon they'll be pastebinning gigabytes of bfjoust.
22:24:23 <nortti> :D
22:24:28 <nooga> ;d
22:24:43 <david_werecat> leviathan = 1 line space_elevator = lots of lines
22:24:45 <monqy> ,|
22:24:46 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:24:54 <nortti> well at least not spamming it to channel
22:24:56 <oerjan> fizzie: um i think ais523 has previously noted that he has to shorten his warriors due to length limitation
22:25:26 <david_werecat> The limit is 200kb.
22:25:29 <fizzie> oerjan: They'll petition Gregor to increase the limits to a gigabyte in order not to be discriminatory due to physical attributes.
22:25:50 <fizzie> It's not like the programs can help their length, after all.
22:26:35 <fizzie> s/long/concisitually challenged/
22:28:20 <oerjan> fizzie: you realize there is a theory of BFJoust programming that treats everything as branching on [, giving depth 100000 loops...
22:28:44 <oerjan> and basically order 2^100000 length programs
22:29:34 <fizzie> I'm not well-versed in theory of BFJoust programming, to be honest. I hear you have to study in a monastery at least seventeen years in order to get a grasp on that.
22:29:35 <oerjan> well, maybe not branching _every_ instruction, but never executing ] if it slows down your strategy
22:29:36 <elliott> oerjan: i am glad the restrictions make that impossible
22:29:39 <elliott> david_werecat: i thought it was a megabyte or so
22:30:31 <david_werecat> ellliott: No, it's 200kb.
22:30:39 <david_werecat> Maybe it changed.
22:30:46 <elliott> maybe that's your pastebin's limit? :P
22:30:56 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm not well versed either, but sometimes with the length limitations you are forced to use precious time _exiting_ loops
22:31:16 <fizzie> oerjan: How philosophically repugnant.
22:31:39 <oerjan> while if you could always just go deeper, you would only have to execute [ or ] in places you want to
22:31:53 <elliott> maybe ] should be free :P
22:32:07 <elliott> thus messing up everyone's timed loops
22:32:07 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2---(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:32:10 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 57.1
22:33:07 <oerjan> <david_werecat> leviathan = 1 line <-- kind of ironically named, then? :P
22:33:56 <ais523> elliott: that's an interesting thought, actually
22:34:02 <ais523> you'd just change ] to .] in existing programs
22:34:10 <ais523> but I fear it'd make triplocking invincible
22:34:31 <elliott> ais523: i think we came up with a way to break ] being free when developing the timing rules
22:34:31 <ais523> unless there was a one-cycle lag on ] (as in, it gave you the value at the start of the /previous/ cycle)
22:39:03 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:39:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 57.4
22:39:41 <elliott> ais523: weird
22:39:47 <elliott> but it could work
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23:29:31 <Vorpal> so I played a bit more wind waker. Wow the sailing is awesome. The interaction with wind is so realistic :D
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23:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that a sarcastic thing?
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23:31:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what no?
23:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I don't recall it being particularly realistic.
23:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean you can still sail upwind a bit, can't you?
23:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can in real boats too though
23:32:23 <Vorpal> it is slow, but it is possible
23:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You can sail about 45 degrees from the wind if your boat has a triangular rig.
23:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Square rigs are terrible at going upwind AFAIK.
23:33:14 <Vorpal> well yes
23:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> After a certain point you can't get any propulsion from the wind at all, the sail just flaps.
23:33:49 <Vorpal> obviously
23:34:03 <Vorpal> I know this. I used to sail in dinghy when I was younger
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23:34:24 <Vorpal> Europe class, so obviously a mostly triangular sail
23:34:36 <Vorpal> (it is slightly curved)
23:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, simply going faster when you're sailing downwind doesn't make it 'so realistic'.
23:35:26 <Vorpal> and the boat can jump too, so that isn't very realistic either
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23:35:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you can't sail straight upwind
23:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Swedish boats can't jump??
23:35:48 <Vorpal> :D
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23:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you get over whirlpools and rocks?
23:36:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by beating down the obstacle like real men
23:36:31 <Vorpal> we just get out and do it
23:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> You... beat down a whirlpool?
23:37:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, haven't you ever been trained in that?
23:37:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course not, we can just jump over them.
23:37:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you are swimming?
23:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> What difference does that make?
23:38:53 <Vorpal> you jump while you swim?
23:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> How else would we get over whirlpools?
23:40:10 <Vorpal> you just beat them down. whirlpools are an endangered species due to that in Sweden
23:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Why bother, when you can jump?
23:40:49 <Vorpal> well, no one told us that we could do that
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23:51:18 <itidus20> it's colder than ceres down here
23:51:28 <itidus20> @weather melbourne
23:51:28 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:51:35 <itidus20> humm do we have a weather bot?
23:51:41 <itidus20> ^weather melbourne
23:51:53 <itidus20> nvm
23:52:41 <oerjan> `run ls bin/w*
23:52:44 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/wl \ bin/word \ bin/words \ bin/wtf
23:52:55 <itidus20> weather is stupid anyway
23:53:32 <itidus20> cognitive dissonance!
23:54:27 <itidus20> so i worked out that the kind of data i seek about games is a bit like video game archaeology
23:56:35 <itidus20> "Archaeology does not include the discipline of paleontology" !?!
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