←2012-06-19 2012-06-20 2012-06-21→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:02:00 <nortti_> `wtf
00:02:02 <HackEgo> why is like wtf
00:02:06 <coppro> wtf
00:02:09 <coppro> microsoft...
00:02:13 <coppro> how the fuck do you even...
00:02:17 <nortti_> ?
00:02:21 <Sgeo> What did MS do?
00:02:25 <coppro> apparently, in MSVC, if you define _HAS_EXCEPTIONS to 0
00:02:29 <coppro> and then include <type_info>
00:02:32 <coppro> guess what it does?
00:02:55 <Sgeo> <type_info> sets _HAS_EXCEPTIONS to 1?
00:02:58 <coppro> nope
00:02:59 <coppro> better
00:03:03 <coppro> it declards ::type_info
00:03:06 <coppro> *declares
00:03:15 <coppro> and typeid() has return type const ::type_info
00:03:26 <coppro> no std::type_info, though!
00:05:43 <itidus20> I am not sure what you might call the science between fizzie's Internet Game Car Database ( www.igcd.net ) finding.
00:06:10 <nortti_> hmm. should I write my os in lisp instead of forth?
00:06:23 <itidus20> It smells like archaeology or paleontology though.
00:06:54 <itidus20> a database where people collect sightings of real-world cars in video games.
00:08:23 <elliott> @lang
00:08:23 <lambdabot> pong
00:09:34 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
00:09:37 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
00:09:41 <elliott> no lambdabot
00:09:41 <elliott> no
00:09:57 <Vorpal> <itidus20> I am not sure what you might call the science between fizzie's Internet Game Car Database ( www.igcd.net ) finding. <-- I'm half alseep but what does fizzie have to do with it?
00:10:14 <itidus20> he linked to that website the other day in here
00:10:21 <itidus20> otherwise nothing :P
00:10:29 <Vorpal> ah
00:10:34 <Vorpal> night
00:12:08 <itidus20> either way it seems to me like a potential science
00:12:36 <itidus20> and time will tell if i'm the man crazy enough to found it
00:12:55 <nortti_> ^ul (x)(y)(z)a(a(a)~a*^*)~a*^*S
00:12:55 <fungot> (x)(y)(z)
00:13:54 <oerjan> nortti_: btw i like to use (~aS:^):^ for debugging
00:14:05 <oerjan> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(~aS:^):^
00:14:06 <fungot> (z)(y)(x) ...out of stack!
00:14:34 <nortti_> oh
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00:16:39 <oerjan> (a)~a*^ is a bit verbose version of ~a~
00:17:48 <itidus20> i guess i have to formalize the activity before i can determine what the proper name for it is
00:17:58 <oerjan> generally i think ~a*^ is overkill if you are not touching stuff deeper than 2 stack elements
00:20:04 <Sgeo> Dear person criticising Clojure at a Clojure conference: Stop reflecting on the nature of criticism and get to substance.
00:20:15 <Sgeo> (He did stop fwiw)
00:21:20 <elliott> hi
00:23:33 <shachaf> elliott: ANY PROGRESS
00:25:52 <elliott> oerjan: kick monqy :(
00:27:21 <oerjan> nu wat
00:27:41 <shachaf> oerjan: KICK ME
00:27:46 <shachaf> and elliott
00:27:48 <shachaf> not monqy
00:27:58 <oerjan> uf
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00:49:20 <elliott> w a ~> a
00:49:23 <elliott> w a ~> w (w a)
00:49:24 <elliott> w a -> m a
00:49:27 <elliott> w a -> m (w (w a))
00:49:28 <elliott> cool
00:49:50 <elliott> extend is...
00:49:53 <elliott> duplicate . fmap f, right?
00:49:54 <elliott> so
00:50:08 <elliott> :t \f -> (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a))) . fmap f
00:50:10 <lambdabot> forall (w :: * -> *) a (m :: * -> *) a1. (Functor w) => (a1 -> a) -> w a1 -> m (w (w a))
00:50:16 <elliott> hmm
00:50:33 <elliott> oh
00:50:35 <elliott> fmap f . duplicate
00:50:40 <elliott> :t \f -> fmap f . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:50:42 <lambdabot> forall b (f :: * -> *) (w :: * -> *) a. (Functor f) => (w (w a) -> b) -> w a -> f b
00:50:48 <elliott> eh
00:51:18 <elliott> oerjan: help
00:51:28 <oerjan> hwat
00:51:50 <elliott> oerjan: can you get it to spit out the right signature
00:51:56 <elliott> if you have
00:52:15 <elliott> duplicate :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:52:20 <elliott> and w is Functor
00:52:21 <elliott> what's the type of
00:52:24 <elliott> \f -> fmap f . duplicate
00:52:40 <elliott> oh wait
00:52:42 <elliott> make that be
00:52:48 <elliott> \f x -> duplicate x >>= fmap f
00:52:50 <elliott> i guess ?
00:52:50 <elliott> argh
00:53:02 <oerjan> um why is there both an m and a w
00:53:03 <elliott> oerjan: the idea is to have a comonad in Kleisli m
00:53:04 <elliott> rather than Hask
00:53:11 <elliott> based on something edwardk said
00:54:18 <oerjan> :t \f -> fmap f <=< (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:54:19 <lambdabot> forall c (m :: * -> *) a. (Functor m, Monad m) => (m a -> c) -> m a -> m c
00:55:22 <oerjan> hm
00:56:14 <oerjan> :t \f -> liftM (fmap f) . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:56:16 <lambdabot> forall b (f :: * -> *) (m :: * -> *) a. (Functor f, Monad m) => (f a -> b) -> f a -> m (f b)
00:56:26 <oerjan> is that it?
00:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: might be. shouldn't it be (w a -> m b)?
00:58:21 <oerjan> :t \f -> join . liftM (fmap f) . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:58:23 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a a1. (Monad m, Functor m) => (m a1 -> a) -> m a1 -> m a
00:58:28 <oerjan> argh
00:59:34 <oerjan> ok wtf is the type of f supposed to be, exactly?
00:59:44 <elliott> f :: (w a -> m b), perhaps?
00:59:48 <elliott> i'm not certain at all
00:59:49 <elliott> the full type might be
00:59:56 <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> w b
00:59:59 <elliott> erm
01:00:01 <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> m (w b)
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01:05:55 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/v6ik6/a_notation_for_comonads_orchard_mycroft_pdf/c528kvc this was the source
01:05:58 <elliott> <oerjan> ok wtf is the type of f supposed to be, exactly?
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> f :: (w a -> m b), perhaps?
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> i'm not certain at all
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> the full type might be
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> w b
01:05:59 <elliott> <elliott> erm
01:06:01 <elliott> <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> m (w b)
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02:44:59 <kmc> is there a good tool for computing a small brainfuck program to output a given string?
02:46:24 <kmc> clearly finding the smallest program is uncomputable, but i think you could do pretty well with a small bit of cleverness
02:54:25 <kmc> you could fix the strategy (as in Wikipedia's hello world example) of initializing n cells to some widely spaced values and then incrementing/decrementing those as needed
03:24:18 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPDATE also tswett
03:24:39 <tswett> Thanks.
03:25:08 <elliott> kmc: There are many tools to do that.
03:25:10 <elliott> !bf_txtgen Here's one.
03:25:14 <EgoBot> ​131 ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++++.<.>>-.<+.>-------.<----.-.<.>>++++++++++++++.>. [896]
03:27:56 <kmc> what strategy does it use
03:28:04 <kmc> !bf_textgen Hello, brainfuck!
03:28:30 <kmc> it looks like what i said, but how does it find the sequence of moves
03:29:51 <Sgeo> kmc, it's txtgen not textgen
03:30:26 <Sgeo> Because the author of the bot loves Microsoft... I mean, hi.
03:30:52 <Sgeo> (Were 8.3 names in use anywhere besides DOS originally, or is it all DOS's fault?)
03:32:22 <elliott> kmc: 'genetic'
03:32:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: CP/M
03:42:30 <kmc> !bf_txtgen Hello, brainfuck!
03:42:32 <EgoBot> ​183 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>..+++.>>----.------------.<++.<+++.>-.++++++++.+++++.<<+.>+++.<---.>>---.>+.-----------------------. [401]
03:55:52 <oklopol> kmc: i think Gregor said that it's some kind of genetic algorithm, although i've read the source and i have a hunch it was actually hill-climbing
03:55:58 <oklopol> this was years ago and i don't really care
03:56:09 <Gregor> It's calamari's.
03:56:19 <Gregor> I have literally not read a line of it.
03:56:21 <Gregor> I don't know how it works.
03:56:59 <oklopol> s/Gregor/elliot & calamari/ probably
03:57:10 <oklopol> elliott likes to call everything a genetic algorithm
03:57:59 <oklopol> wait
03:58:07 <oklopol> did elliott actually call it genetic just now :D
03:58:17 <oklopol> "elliott kmc: 'genetic'" this is so delicious
03:58:37 <Sgeo>
03:58:39 <Sgeo>
03:58:59 <kmc> well it's easy to code a genetic algorithm which is effectively just hill climbing + noise
03:59:09 <kmc> but 'genetic algorithm' sounds cool so...
03:59:10 <elliott> oklopol: did you see
03:59:11 <elliott> the ''
03:59:14 <elliott> the ' '
03:59:16 <elliott> trhe ' '
03:59:21 <oklopol> elliott: sorry, 'delicious'
03:59:29 <elliott> it's 'genetic' like oklopol is 'smart'
03:59:35 <Sgeo> Does delicious still exist?
03:59:49 <kmc> google is failing me
03:59:55 <Sgeo> Yay, it does!
03:59:59 <oklopol> kmc: genetic is reserved for swapping parts of solutions.
04:00:13 <kmc> want to find information on the initial register state of a MS-DOS .COM program
04:00:16 <kmc> oklopol: i know
04:00:17 <oklopol> hill-climbing + noise = hill-climbing
04:00:26 <kmc> but it's easy to write a GA where crossover is never useful
04:00:30 <kmc> without realizing that you have done so
04:00:31 <oklopol> oh
04:00:48 <oklopol> yes you are correct ofc
04:01:20 <shachaf> kmc: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3715618/how-does-dos-load-a-program-into-memory ?
04:01:31 <kmc> yeah, i don't know what "drive letter status" means
04:01:35 <kmc> failed to find that by google
04:02:22 <oklopol> "kmc but it's easy to write a GA where crossover is never useful" far easier than writing one where it is useful i hear
04:02:39 <oklopol> elliott: also "fuck you", i'm really "mad" at you now
04:02:42 <kmc> forever ago, i wrote a GA to solve knapsack problem
04:02:58 <kmc> for which crossover is trivial and (i think) useful
04:03:03 <kmc> but there are still better solutions to knapsack problem
04:03:03 <elliott> oklopol: 'awesome'
04:03:44 <oklopol> oooh i wrote my bachelor's thesis on that
04:03:45 <shachaf> ·
04:04:36 <oklopol> you mean just have a binary vector of which items you've taken, and then you swap parts of those?
04:04:49 <kmc> yeah
04:05:30 <kmc> this was like 10 years ago
04:05:51 <kmc> i did it to figure out an efficient way to burn all my pirated music onto CD-ROMs
04:05:52 <oklopol> my intuition is that crossover is utterly useless :/
04:05:56 <kmc> for my MP3 CD player
04:05:56 <oklopol> because
04:05:57 <oklopol> umm
04:06:02 <oklopol> erm
04:06:07 <kmc> :D
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04:07:00 <Sgeo> IPATE
04:07:01 <kmc> MP3 CD player = best thing ever for like 2 years
04:07:02 <Sgeo> UPDATE
04:07:36 <oklopol> the problem's just such a direct walk to the pareto frontier, whereas crossover is usually useful when you have multiple subproblems you need to solve.
04:07:50 <kmc> *nod*
04:07:59 <oklopol> if two items really need to occur together, how do you figure that out here unless you guess the right solution?
04:08:05 <shachaf> kmc: Why do you want the register state?
04:08:35 <kmc> shachaf: writing a polyglot program, want it to be a .COM file as well
04:08:43 <kmc> like http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/poly/polyglot.txt
04:10:14 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy tswett ^ update, as mentioned 3 minutes ago
04:11:17 <elliott> hi
04:12:38 <oklopol> really knapsack and subset sum are an embarrassment among NP-hard problems
04:13:04 <oklopol> as is 3sat really
04:13:23 <kmc> you mean because the common instances are actually easy?
04:13:50 <oklopol> well knapsack and subset sum also because there's a fully polynomial approximation algorithm
04:14:23 <oklopol> you can get as close as you like in polynomial time ("fully" means that it's also polynomial w.r.t. 1/epsilon)
04:14:54 <Sgeo> Hmm, it's been a while since I played with Celestia
04:15:08 <oklopol> 3sat i guess just because common instances are actually easy
04:15:32 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should figure out how to see the recent transit in Celestia
04:15:58 <kmc> yeah the PTAS is a big deal
04:16:08 <kmc> i'm not sure what "common instances" for SAT really means
04:16:23 <kmc> because SAT solvers got really good, and so now people are reducing everything to SAT
04:16:45 <kmc> and thus have rapidly approached the frontier of tractable SAT problems
04:16:51 <shachaf> kmc: https://github.com/Henne/dosbox-svn/blob/master/src/dos/dos_execute.cpp
04:17:20 <oklopol> well that's a good point
04:17:40 <kmc> shachaf: unfortunately that still doesn't tell me what's guaranteed by the "spec"
04:17:43 <kmc> but that's useful
04:17:52 <oklopol> i wasn't being very serious, i just haven't seen a good concise puzzle in the form of a 3sat instance.
04:17:57 <shachaf> kmc: There's a "spec"?
04:18:04 <oklopol> concisely presented
04:18:14 <shachaf> I would think that there's only what Microsoft decided was worth keeping backwards-compatible.
04:18:17 <kmc> yeah i doubt there is one
04:18:22 <shachaf> Which is usually a lot, admittedly.
04:18:23 <kmc> that works as a response to both of you :)
04:18:39 <oklopol> :P
04:18:43 <kmc> one of my recent failed projects was to use a SAT solver to run Game of Life backwards
04:19:11 <oklopol> i once has a summer job finding orphans in GoL
04:19:15 <oklopol> *had
04:20:09 <oklopol> at an orphanage
04:20:36 <oklopol> okay that may not have been completely true
04:21:20 <oklopol> it would be nice to know what the smallest one is
04:24:04 <elliott> hi
04:24:04 <shachaf> 21:21 <ceti331__> i'm a c++ coder, -> is burned into my eyes meaning pointer dereference
04:25:11 <kmc> #haskell?
04:25:22 <shachaf> Yes.
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05:29:17 * Sgeo bubbles at the Seer monad
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06:21:04 <kmc> in C, are unbalanced quotation marks allowed within #if 0 ... #endif?
06:25:46 <Sgeo> I would assume so
06:25:54 <kmc> gcc gives a warning and tcc gives an error
06:25:57 <Sgeo> The compiler shouldn't even see anything
06:25:58 <Sgeo> Oh
06:26:02 <kmc> but i am too lazy to look up whether it is actually allowed
06:26:12 <kmc> well, the warning comes from the preprocessor
06:26:25 <kmc> so i could ask "in cpp, are ..."
06:26:31 <kmc> but afaik the spec for cpp is part of the spec for C
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06:55:11 <fizzie> kmc: "The source file is decomposed into preprocessing tokens" in translation stage 3, while preprocessing directives like #if 0 happen in stage 4, so what's within has to parse into proper preprocessing tokens, and a string literal is a single such token, so no. But unbalanced parentheses and such should be fine.
06:56:39 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/ansi/ifdefsyntax.html
07:13:32 <Sgeo> I wonder if there's any fiction that uses Haskell's model of "time travel"... as in, I know Haskell doesn't allow time travel, but it can be made to look like it, and I wonder if the rules of such can be applied to fiction
07:18:55 <kmc> what are you talking about
07:19:05 <kmc> Sgeo: have you seen the film Primer?
07:19:16 <Sgeo> kmc, only twice
07:19:20 <kmc> hehe
07:19:25 <kmc> the time machines in that film are a lot like call/cc
07:20:17 <Sgeo> ...I'm not quite smart enough to understand
07:20:48 <kmc> well you can only go back to the time when the machine was started
07:21:02 <kmc> and the original copy of you is still running around in the world
07:21:34 <shachaf> cpp knows about quotation marks.
07:22:47 <shachaf> "\
07:22:49 <shachaf> #if 0\
07:22:50 <shachaf> b\
07:22:53 <shachaf> #endif\
07:22:56 <shachaf> \n"
07:23:04 <Sgeo> How about the closed time loops of, say, the Seer monad?
07:23:19 <Sgeo> Which still wouldn't let you easily factor numbers
07:23:41 <kmc> i don't know about that monad
07:25:23 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11060565/tying-the-knot-with-a-state-monad
07:25:32 <Sgeo> (The accepted answer)
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07:29:41 <fizzie> shachaf: At least with my compiler, that ends up being a string literal containing the string "#if 0b#endif" -- and that's what I think should happen, too.
07:30:10 <fizzie> Oh, that's exactly what you meant, I guess.
07:30:48 <fizzie> Anyway, it's just another way of saying what I said; that preprocessing tokens like string literals are built in stage 3, and preprocessing directives processed only in stage 4.
07:31:08 <shachaf> Actually on looking at what I said again, it isn't directly relevant.
07:31:20 <shachaf> The \s are the reason the #s aren't interpreted, not the "s.
07:31:30 <shachaf> "but, you know, that general idea"
07:33:09 <fizzie> The \s are the only reason the whole bit is legal, really, so I guess. But, I mean, you could also say that the preprocessor has to know about quotation marks in order for #define FOO BAR "FOO" not to result in a string literal that says BAR.
07:34:18 <shachaf> Yes.
07:35:51 <kmc> /* "*/" */
07:37:14 <shachaf> I suppose the difference between comments and #if was your whole point.
07:37:44 <kmc> mine?
07:38:13 <shachaf> Yes.
07:38:18 <shachaf> Well, if you had one.
07:38:28 <kmc> not really
07:38:38 <kmc> i just ran into this warning/error and wondered what the prescribed behavior is
07:41:08 <olsner> the way I understand it, the splitting into tokens happens "before" conditionals so the text in all parts of an #if needs to form valid preprocessor tokens
07:41:54 <olsner> but you probably already said that somewhere above
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07:44:54 <kmc> why does ghc barf on .lhs lines starting with #?
07:45:20 <stalem> hello all! sorry to interrupt any ongoing conversation, but i'm in the midst of designing and documenting a programming language
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07:46:01 <stalem> what i'm curious about is wether or not it would be considered esoteric, and for your deciding pleasure, here's a brief example/description of the language as of now
07:46:05 <Taneb> Hello
07:46:05 <stalem> http://paste2.org/p/2056626
07:46:12 <stalem> Good day to you, sir!
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07:47:45 <Taneb> That's interesting
07:47:55 <Taneb> It reminds me of a combination of my ideas of Lisp and Basic
07:48:00 <Taneb> But I'm not sure if it's esoteric
07:48:03 <shachaf> stalem: "esoteric" is an emotional word, not a technical one.
07:48:06 <shachaf> Therefore, consult your emotions.
07:48:42 <stalem> Oh, so with that, it could be either, depending on the viewers taste?
07:48:58 <stalem> Taneb; makes me glad to hear it's interesting ^_^
07:49:44 <Taneb> Esotericness is in the eye of the beholder
07:49:48 <stalem> shachaf: my emotions want to say it is, but is in conflict wether or not it would fit in this mighty inspiring community
07:49:56 <stalem> Gotcha!
07:50:01 <Taneb> ^source
07:50:02 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
07:50:12 <Taneb> Some would say the language that's written in isn't esoteric
07:50:32 <stalem> I didn't quite follow that
07:50:41 <shachaf> Let's consult Mr. Eso T. Eric
07:51:06 <stalem> Oh yeah? ;)
07:53:32 <fizzie> Consult the Esoteric Language Council, a UN-run organization tasked with determining these things.
07:53:41 <stalem> sweet ;)
07:53:53 <shachaf> fizzie: Sometime I confuse you with itidus20.
07:54:05 <shachaf> s/me/mes/
07:54:10 <stalem> Either way, I humbly thank you for your insights and I'll def finish designing and documenting, and write up an article for esolang
07:54:13 <shachaf> Just the nick, I mean.
07:54:22 <shachaf> Then I read what you say and I think "oh, that's not itidus20!".
07:54:34 <fizzie> But I don't even have a "20".
07:55:09 <stalem> maybe just the things you two say are very much alike?
07:55:22 <stalem> owait nvm, 'just the nick, i mean'
07:55:31 <kmc> shachaf: what language should i add to my polyglot?
07:55:48 <itidus20> heh
07:56:07 <shachaf> kmc: What are you using so far?
07:56:28 <kmc> c, haskell, python, sh, brainfuck
07:57:05 <Gregor> http://tacocopter.com/ This is science. This is the future. This is America.
07:57:27 <kmc> fuck yeah
07:58:27 <Taneb> kmc, try to get Befunge in there
07:58:43 <kmc> i thought about it
07:58:50 <kmc> could be amusing but maybe one esolang is enough
07:58:57 <Taneb> No!
07:59:01 <kmc> maybe i will remove brainfuck
07:59:03 <Taneb> One esolang is never enough!
07:59:21 <shachaf> kmc: You should add Objective C.
07:59:24 <shachaf> And maybe C++.
07:59:24 <Taneb> Did you see cpressey say "I've made Befunge, now time to stop"!?
07:59:25 <Taneb> No!
07:59:45 <Taneb> Did you see dmm say "I've made Piet, no that's enough"!?
07:59:45 <Taneb> No!
07:59:58 <shachaf> OK, add FORTRAN.
08:00:05 <Taneb> Did you see Taneb say "I've made Ook++, that's enough"!?
08:00:05 <Taneb> No!
08:00:06 <kmc> "Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! Who's with me?!?"
08:00:24 <Taneb> But that's because Ook++ really sucked and I didn't know there was a wiki back then
08:00:53 <kmc> shachaf: ooh, Objective C
08:01:03 <Taneb> C#
08:01:19 <Taneb> What does this Polyglot do?
08:01:19 <john_metcalf> Germans?
08:01:30 <Taneb> john_metcalf, Team America reference, I believe
08:02:00 <Sgeo> Add malbolge!
08:02:06 <kmc> Taneb: no, Animal House
08:02:11 * Sgeo cackles insanely
08:02:11 <Taneb> Oh, okay
08:02:15 <kmc> "fuck yeah" was a team america reference :)
08:02:29 <Taneb> Fuck yeah.
08:02:30 <kmc> Taneb: prints "Hello, C!" or such
08:02:32 <kmc> that's all
08:02:39 <Taneb> Oh, cool
08:02:41 <shachaf> It should be a quine.
08:02:50 <Taneb> I may try to do something similar
08:02:51 <kmc> now how to tell C from Objective C
08:02:53 <Sgeo> How hard could it be to write a Hello, Malbolge! program?
08:03:09 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I meant that it would print the same thing in Objective C as in C.
08:03:11 <Sgeo> That's a polygot with other languages
08:03:21 <shachaf> kmc: Objective C is by design a strict superset of C, so that might be tricky.
08:04:36 <pikhq_> shachaf: __OBJC__
08:04:40 * shachaf puts on a ring of polyglot control.
08:04:50 <shachaf> pikhq_: Phooey. Cheater.
08:05:02 <pikhq_> I think it's actually the only way.
08:05:14 <pikhq_> Aside from saying "Well, it builds in Objective C too".
08:05:22 <shachaf> That's just using a ring of polyglot control.
08:05:58 <pikhq_> Now for a *good time* also make it Objective C++ and C++. :P
08:06:33 <shachaf> FOR A GOOD TIME $ printf '\e(0'
08:07:02 <olsner> kmc: how about intercal?
08:07:25 <olsner> if someone didn't suggest that already
08:07:55 <pikhq_> On a somewhat more serious note, but not *very*, it'd be quite impressive if you can make it a valid COM executable.
08:09:21 <Sgeo> Objective C++?
08:09:32 <kmc> pikhq_: yeah, i'm planning to do that
08:09:33 <kmc> last...
08:09:37 <shachaf> pikhq_: That's already on the list.
08:09:38 <kmc> http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/poly/polyglot.txt is one
08:09:56 <kmc> Sgeo: two great tastes that go great together
08:10:28 <shachaf> So is Objective C++ a strict superset of C++?
08:10:52 <Sgeo> kmc, UTTER_XYZZY?
08:10:57 <pikhq_> shachaf: Yes.
08:11:28 <pikhq_> It applies the Objective- to C++, as a hack to let you do C++ and Objective-C bindings straight.
08:12:08 <shachaf> And you have two incompatible object systems?
08:12:23 <pikhq_> Yes.
08:12:37 <shachaf> Sounds great.
08:13:00 <pikhq_> Because you actually need at least *3* incompatible ways of doing something.
08:13:06 <shachaf> kmc: You should write a polyglot that uses the two incompatible object systems of C++ and Objective C together somehow.
08:13:16 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess Objective C is all dynamic and everything.
08:13:27 <shachaf> So the implementation is pretty different from C++.
08:14:09 <Gregor> I don't think anyone uses Objective-C++ for anything other than binding Objective-C bits to C++ bits.
08:14:14 <Lumpio-> Obj-C is also horrible
08:14:14 <Gregor> So it's not THAT bad.
08:16:21 <kmc> Lumpio-: oh yeah?
08:16:34 <kmc> care to elaborate?
08:32:09 <shachaf> kmc: https://raw.github.com/mauke/poly.poly/master/poly.poly
08:32:15 <shachaf> (Maybe spoilers if you're working on one yourself.)
08:35:42 <kmc> ah yes, i've seen this
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08:44:51 <Taneb> How are compilers made?
08:45:13 <fizzie> First you have a girl compiler and a boy compiler...
08:45:31 <monqy> Taneb: would you like a joke or
08:45:37 <fizzie> TOO LATE.
08:45:50 <Taneb> Ideally I'd like a tutorial
08:45:54 <monqy> oh no, the truth is out
08:46:24 <fizzie> You could read the dragon book, it's said to be good. (And, really: DRAGON BOOK.)
08:46:36 <fizzie> Also boringly called "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools".
08:46:36 <kmc> SICP ends with the construction of a compiler, of sorts
08:46:49 <kmc> i'm not sure it sheds much light on how a C compiler would be made
08:47:03 <monqy> one time I wrote a compiler
08:47:10 <monqy> it was an experience
08:47:28 <Taneb> I think I have more immediately important things to do
08:47:31 <kmc> one time i looked at a green thing
08:47:34 <kmc> it was an experience
08:47:54 <monqy> me too
08:47:55 <kmc> what happens if you access outside the bounds of physical memory on an x86 processor in (actual) real mode?
08:48:16 <kmc> it seems like this is a platform question, not a CPU question
08:48:23 <fizzie> If you don't want to make a good compiler, it can be a rather mechanical job. You know, the sort of "parse the language in question to some sort of a tree, and then just generate machine code directly out of the tree".
08:48:43 <kmc> fizzie: well, there's still sort of a trick of flattening that tree into a linear sequence of instructions
08:49:14 <john_metcalf> The Dragon Book is hard going. Something like "Writing Interactive Interpreters and Compilers" is much easier to understand.
08:49:21 <shachaf> kmc: That depends on what you're compiling into!
08:49:23 <kmc> not much of a trick
08:50:06 <kmc> so maybe out of bounds writes do nothing, and reads get 0's or 1's or garbage, depending on how the data line drivers are wired up
08:50:21 <kmc> or the address is simply truncated
08:51:44 <shachaf> @context
08:51:44 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:52:43 <fizzie> kmc: "The IA-32 processors beginning with the Intel386 processor can generate 32-bit offsets using an address override prefix; however, in real-address mode, the value of a 32-bit offset may not exceed FFFFH without causing an exception." So if you have physical memory up to byte 0x10FFEF, you can't actually reach outside it.
08:53:36 <fizzie> (And normally if you actually are in a real real mode, the A20 line isn't enabled, so you're stuck in [0, 0xFFFFF], but that's a platform thing again.)
08:56:52 <fizzie> I suppose it's up to the platform what you'd get back if you have less than a megabyte of physical memory. They put a lot of memory-mapped things from A0000 up, anyway.
08:58:51 <fizzie> The gap that you're "likely" to hit in a real system is the one from 512k to 640k, since some people only have that half a megabyte of RAM.
09:07:53 <shachaf> monqy: is there a difference between monqy and mauke
09:08:00 <monqy> yes
09:08:03 <monqy> (yes?)
09:08:36 <fizzie> But maybe there's some sort of a "mouqe" compromise solution.
09:08:54 * itidus20 pre-emptively provides more info.
09:09:00 <itidus20> `? monqy
09:09:09 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
09:10:12 <shachaf> `? mauke
09:10:15 <HackEgo> mauke? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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09:12:23 <Taneb> I'm possibly the only person who regularly gets mixed up between the Pet Shop Boys and Duran Duran
09:13:35 <monqy> what's t hat
09:15:47 <itidus20> they're parties of musicians whose members tend to each specialize in a particular instrument
09:15:51 <shachaf> monqy: t̂
09:15:54 <shachaf> HOPE THAT HELPS
09:16:35 <Taneb> A t hat is a short-sleeved fedora
09:17:17 <itidus20> fizzie: gameontology is wonderfully absurd
09:21:33 <ion> I used to be a fisherman but then I took a spear in the head. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/06/19/national/a112354D35.DTL&tsp=1
09:21:44 <monqy> : )
09:25:12 <ion> http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Featherstonehaugh
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09:30:48 <itidus20> <cruzmoon> He needed that like he needed a hole in the head
09:30:48 <itidus20> <giantsmax> cross spear fishing off the to do list
09:40:49 <ion> "STOP! THIS IS NOT A DVD" - eBay seller screams in his item page. http://youtu.be/IOwTAiat1vg
09:43:36 <shachaf> ion: That person sure sounds angry.
09:43:57 <shachaf> But $1.99 for a Toy Story 3 DVD? I'd buy it no matter how much he shouts.
09:44:20 <shachaf> Totally worth it.
09:44:59 <kmc> this is added by the seller?
09:46:31 <ion> shachaf: Yes, it’s a good deal for a DVD indeed.
09:50:30 <Gregor> STOP!
09:50:32 <Gregor> THIS IS NOT A DVD!
09:50:36 <Gregor> Dun dun dun
09:54:47 <john_metcalf> I just tried to buy one of those DVDs, but the seller died :-(
09:55:18 <itidus20> CECI N'EST PAS UNE DVD!
09:56:12 <ion> john: You should send negative feedback for not getting the DVD.
09:57:16 <fizzie> "Seller died, would not buy again."
09:57:53 <fizzie> (Though maybe e will get better.)
09:58:57 <john_metcalf> The video has had quite a few views. I should do something similar on my eBay shop. :-)
09:59:33 <itidus20> it's difficult to be annoying in a quirky interesting way
10:03:50 <ion> 2 € http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/myst_masterpiece_edition
10:04:35 <fizzie> "Bonus content included for FREE with purchase: manual (17 pages)". Such magnanimity.
10:07:08 <fizzie> Sadly, I have two Myst (what's the plural?) already.
10:08:13 <shachaf> The plural is "Mystery".
10:08:29 <fizzie> Okay, good to know. Two Mystery, then.
10:08:30 <Gregor> *clap*
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11:17:42 <itidus20> Curse you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Topology , curse you....
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11:18:47 <nortti> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120619/03230119379/fbi-dea-warn-that-ipv6-may-be-too-damn-anonymous.shtml
11:20:02 <itidus20> there must be an easier way of learning math than reading wikipedia
11:22:02 <itidus20> maybe the problem I am facing is refusing to see the world the math way
11:27:45 <itidus20> nortti: well they may be right
11:29:50 <itidus20> although i think freedom is a nice thing, stability and security in life comes from predictability and constraints
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13:31:12 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2>(+)*2)*2((+)*6<(-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(-)*42>(-)*46>(+)*48)*2(>)*3(([(-)*4[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][..-]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
13:31:15 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 58.7
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13:36:09 <Gregor> quintopia: WHERE'S DA CODE
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13:57:37 <oklopol> itidus20: for topology, wikipedia is very good
13:58:18 <oklopol> since mostly you need definitions
13:58:40 <oklopol> of course if you want to do research in the topic, i don't really know what you need, since i don't know what topologists are doing.
13:59:05 <oklopol> but our second latest article was kind of about topology and we just used wp and counterexamples in topology
14:00:12 <itidus20> one thing i am interested in is computer-less program design.
14:00:28 <itidus20> like having a whole software development studio without any computers in it
14:00:55 <oklopol> okay i doubt topology will help you with that
14:01:08 <oklopol> also i started playing a game :o
14:01:16 <oklopol> stronghold kingdoms
14:01:16 <itidus20> oh i have many interests. i have little choice but to rattle them off.
14:01:35 <oklopol> yeah it happens
14:01:57 <itidus20> MMORTS .. wow
14:02:18 <oklopol> anyhow if you wanna get into mathematics, afaik you basically have to know the basics of topology, but unless you do topology specifically, you just need the basics
14:03:15 <oklopol> it's kind of a fun game if you have an infinite amount of time on your hands.
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14:04:11 <itidus20> i'm borderline obsessed with video games. i would say completely obsessed if i invested more energy into learning about them
14:05:00 <itidus20> math is inherently a part of video games, even though i got in a bitter fight about how math is not essential for video games in another channel
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14:06:25 <oklopol> well you certainly need to apply some basic linear algebra to get a game engine working.
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14:07:07 <oklopol> but most of making a game is outside the engine and the math is elementary or nonexistent
14:07:49 <itidus20> yeah i think the science of computer games (the word video games is admittedly not very good) is burgeoning
14:08:18 <itidus20> or is it an art.. it's amusing to me how many scientists end up engaged in developing art tools
14:09:14 <itidus20> "aha we have made a breakthrough in the lab.. call the painters guild, theres a new kind of paint coming!"
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14:11:02 <oklopol> i would say it's much closer to art than science, there is no scientific method and you're usually scored based on packaging. then again perhaps that's how science actually works outside math anyway.
14:11:05 <itidus20> oklopol: ok what really happens is that, because of not knowing, i end up endlessly speculating
14:11:17 <ion> https://p.twimg.com/Avw0BNbCAAEZXV-.jpg
14:11:18 <oklopol> yeah that's normal
14:11:59 <oklopol> surface looks so neat
14:12:01 <oklopol> i want one
14:12:12 <fizzie> I'm confused because they called that one table-sized thing Surface originally.
14:12:15 <itidus20> like, like, i don't know how to do "algebra" .. that thing which 8th graders call "algebra".. im not in a position to use any bigger words
14:12:22 <itidus20> i am referring to arithmetic + variables :P
14:12:24 <fizzie> Apparently that's been retconned to SomethingPixel though.
14:12:33 <fizzie> PixelSense, I mean.
14:12:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surface_table.JPG see that's a Surface.
14:13:08 <itidus20> so.... when i try to meditate on numbers so to speak, i hit a dead end very fast
14:13:11 <fizzie> But I suppose they just zoomed it down.
14:13:44 <itidus20> like vroom vroom brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr **\CRASH3=\-\=3-
14:14:13 <itidus20> thats the price of being lazy
14:14:33 <oklopol> itidus20: usually algebra is arithmetic + variables but you're talking in a more general sense about other objects that satisfy similar axioms.
14:14:49 <oklopol> except for universal algebra where the axioms can be anything.
14:14:59 <oklopol> (and the operations)
14:15:05 <oklopol> (universal algebra is great)
14:15:05 <itidus20> i tell myself, theres kids in africa whose daily drinking water is killing them.. and yet i cannot muster the energy to do the dishes
14:15:39 <itidus20> i'm at one with my laziness
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14:16:24 <oklopol> what incredible laziness, that sounds really scary. well unless you're a 20 something male of course.
14:16:32 <itidus20> 30
14:16:49 <oklopol> or a 30 something bachelor w/e
14:16:56 <itidus20> ya :D
14:17:13 <itidus20> i found a piece of text where kafka talks about the bachelor
14:17:18 <oklopol> i'm planning to clean this place up by friday since i have a visitor
14:17:37 <oklopol> i've been planning this for two weeks.
14:18:36 <itidus20> It seems so dreadful to be a bachelor, to become an old man struggling to keep one's dignity while begging for an invitation whenever one wants to spend an evening in company, [...] to feel estranged from ones family, with whom one can keep on close terms only by marriage, first by the marriage of one's parents, then, when the effect of that has worn off, by one's own, having to admire other people
14:18:36 <itidus20> 's children and not even being allowed to go on saying: I have none myself, [...]
14:20:07 <oklopol> i agree, girlfriends are essential
14:20:49 <itidus20> i felt this quite strongly on my grandma's 90th birthday
14:20:53 <ion> http://www.hipsterhost.net/
14:21:12 <itidus20> all my cousins with their houses and their children
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14:22:03 <itidus20> me at a table with my mum, grandma, and the tradesman uncle
14:22:35 <fizzie> I tell our cat "there are cats in Africa who are not getting any food", but it doesn't seem to motivate it one bit to eat the dried-up stuff in its bowl.
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14:22:52 <ion> fizzie: The cat recognizes the fallacy.
14:23:19 <itidus20> fizzie: well, i do too.. the real threat is if you work too hard people will expect that from you
14:23:39 <itidus20> they'll let you burn yourself out
14:24:13 <oklopol> well who cares what they think, the real problem is you start expecting that from yourself. not that i see how this has anything to do with the cat. perhaps something.
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14:24:34 <itidus20> maybe thats not it
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14:25:49 <itidus20> oklopol: well one thing i wish i could do was write an inverse kinematic animation engine
14:25:57 <oklopol> if you say that africa thing is a fallacy, do you also think it's okay for american spoiled brats to want a new car on each of their birthdays even though they already have a fuckload of nice things?
14:26:06 <itidus20> thats one place i think math would be useful for gaming
14:26:22 <oklopol> because personally i find them obnoxious, and i don't know many people who don't.
14:26:24 <itidus20> mathematically speaking i'm sure it's rather trivial
14:26:50 <oklopol> perhaps i'm just missing the point of the fallacy
14:27:16 <oklopol> what's an inverse kinematic animation engine
14:27:44 <itidus20> ok well.. suppose you have some skeleton
14:27:57 <itidus20> and you say, i want the right hand to go to this point
14:28:23 <itidus20> then getting the skeleton to bend some joints to get the hand to the point
14:28:33 <oklopol> right
14:28:49 <oklopol> i'm also interested in a generalization of this (called clue 2)
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14:29:23 <oklopol> clue 2 - you don't have a clue just how awesome it is.
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14:29:33 <oklopol> pun intended.
14:29:50 <oklopol> (i used the word clue in the official motto and that's also thename)
14:29:52 <oklopol> *the name
14:29:57 <oklopol> (that's the pun)
14:29:58 <itidus20> yeah, the subject apparently comes up a lot in robotics but it's like for fucks sake its not a robot its just a 3d model, someone is drinking too much if they study robotics to figure out how to make a 3d model move
14:31:08 <oklopol> well perhaps they want to do this with muscles to make it look more realistic. not that i know what robotics actually studies.
14:31:41 <oklopol> although i admit drinking too much is a big problem among inverse kinematic animation engineers.
14:32:07 <itidus20> _some_ people do get too carried away with the math side of it
14:32:54 <oklopol> well the good math usually only starts once you get so carried away you don't even remember what you're doing
14:34:02 <itidus20> the people who made the game N have got themselves lost in the study of robotics
14:37:11 <fizzie> I have a feeling that if you tell an inverse kinematic animation engineer to solve some set of equations, he or she will just be all numerical methods about it, instead of trying to find analytical solutions. At least if it's a hard enough problem.
14:37:59 <oklopol> also why make equations when there's random search
14:39:19 <itidus20> a few of the smarter people have started to do stuff related to skeletal animation over the years but it's yet to really be the next wave
14:39:39 <itidus20> well.. i think ragdolls are ugly
14:39:52 <itidus20> and the interfaces for them are horrible
14:40:00 <fizzie> I also have a vague feeling animation-wise they want some sort of consistency between the resulting solutions.
14:40:38 <itidus20> i want to make a skeletal animation character (in 2d) which is actually good
14:40:42 <oklopol> nothing that aims for realism is ever in the least bit interesting, so i don't really give that many shits about what the state of the art is
14:41:24 <itidus20> well theres :) realism and theres :( realism
14:41:35 <oklopol> what's :) realism
14:41:39 <oklopol> that sounds better
14:41:54 <itidus20> sonic the hedgehog is :) realism
14:42:10 <oklopol> that's kind of a trivial game.
14:42:28 <itidus20> it has objects moving!
14:42:48 <oklopol> yay for timers that increase variables.
14:43:39 <fizzie> oklopol: Sonic the Hedgehog nowadays uses the Havok physics engine, I think there's a bit more math in it than that.
14:43:47 <fizzie> (Everything nowadays uses Havok.)
14:43:59 <itidus20> humm the 3d sonics get a lot of criticism..
14:44:09 <fizzie> Yes, well, understandably.
14:44:11 <oklopol> oh i assumed we were talking about the 2d version
14:44:29 <itidus20> i was, cos im retro-hipster-retro
14:44:34 <fizzie> I thought we were talking about the gene. Oh, wait, it doesn't have that "the".
14:44:36 <itidus20> ok so realism.. to expound a bit more
14:44:49 <itidus20> someone got very upset about the sonic the hedgehog gene
14:45:27 <oklopol> i have yet to see a 3d game that has an idea.
14:45:30 <itidus20> sonic the hedgehog maintains a narrative kind of realism
14:46:21 <itidus20> he stands on 2 feet(on the ground).. and he can walk back and forth at a steady pace
14:47:25 <oklopol> what does "narrative kind of realism mean"?
14:47:35 <oklopol> anything except "real realism"?
14:47:45 <fizzie> oklopol: Walking back and forth.
14:47:48 <itidus20> but some ragdoll games it looks as if some kind of invisible force is dragging a lifeless body about in the air
14:48:01 <oklopol> fizzie: are you sure?
14:48:36 <itidus20> even though the ragdoll's joints react realistically to being dragged about in the air
14:50:01 <itidus20> i havent played many modern games so i'm out of the loop of realism
14:50:17 <oklopol> and you can't identify with the character if it doesn't look like there's a newtonian physics and a sequence of muscle contractions behind its motion?
14:50:54 <oklopol> who gives a shit, make the player a ball and the game doesn't change at all.
14:51:01 <itidus20> you're right.
14:51:10 <itidus20> my comments about realism were wrong
14:51:47 <itidus20> the real problem is that most ragdoll games, all of them quite shameful in a way, are about dragging a lifeless body through the air
14:51:57 <itidus20> its an incredibly awkward interface
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14:52:20 <itidus20> i havent really played many, mostly seen them on youtube
14:52:25 <oklopol> well the necrophiliacs are a big market
14:52:40 <fizzie> Yeah, they should all play like that QWOP thing or whatever it was.
14:53:01 <itidus20> they're not a whole lot better than QWOP
14:53:08 <fizzie> Except with more keys.
14:53:49 <itidus20> QWOP was designed to be difficult though.
14:54:09 <fizzie> I don't think their point is in how you start things moving. To the extent that they have a point.
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14:55:24 <fizzie> It's a Finnish joke-demogroup who made the semi-known "Dismount" series of games, incidentally.
14:55:25 <itidus20> well, suppose that QWOP had some kind of AI that when you're not pressing anything, it tried to stand up straight
14:56:06 <itidus20> and that when you push right, it would try to approximate a stable run
14:56:52 <itidus20> and therein we find the beauty i am speaking of
14:57:04 <fizzie> The first one was released at Assembly some years back (actually what the what, it was a *decade* ago), and then they made a couple more for later years.
14:58:04 <itidus20> with my ego invested in such things, i actually hope that i might be the first to make such a thing one day
14:58:08 <itidus20> like a playable qwop
14:59:09 <itidus20> and so, the idea i guess is that when no keys are being pressed, it will try to use inverse kinematics to stand up
14:59:35 <itidus20> i don't know how feasible that is
14:59:47 <Lumpio-> fizzie: pffrt, tAAt is dead serious!
15:00:02 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Very serious business, sure.
15:00:28 <fizzie> Like, uh, Napababa.
15:00:36 <fizzie> (Away.)
15:00:58 <itidus20> and the kind of game i would like to make with such a system is .. among other things, something like double dragon
15:03:33 <oklopol> qwop was a great game
15:05:16 <itidus20> ok so dismount is pretty cool
15:05:25 <itidus20> and i secretly love ragdoll games :((
15:05:37 <oklopol> i KNEW it
15:05:41 <ion> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=167713
15:05:46 <itidus20> augh
15:06:55 <itidus20> now i need proof
15:09:39 <oklopol> are people seriously still falling for spam?
15:09:47 <oklopol> i mean spam scams
15:11:04 <ion> If they didn’t, there would be no spam anymore.
15:12:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:14:32 <oklopol> are you sure? maybe they're being paid by the spam filter ppl.
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15:37:02 <itidus20> so i analyzed my youtube history for relevant videos.. im not sure what the N months or years ago part means.. if it means when i viewed it or when it was uploaded
15:37:05 <itidus20> http://oi45.tinypic.com/5ml7cy.jpg
15:37:40 <itidus20> some of the zany things i have seen
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15:54:02 <Gregor> "Theremin controlled Mario"
15:54:09 <Gregor> I'll bet that's not even remotely fun.
15:54:20 <oklopol> i
15:54:24 <oklopol> bet it's awesome
16:01:54 <nooga> http://pastie.org/4121094
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16:29:04 <elliott> fizzie: You know, like, vim, right?
16:29:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:48:36 <elliott> Gregor: You know vim, right. :(
16:49:15 <Deewiant> elliott: Pong
16:49:50 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you have a ping on "vim"?
16:50:04 <Deewiant> No, I was just browsing
16:51:24 <elliott> Deewiant: How can I yank up to the next line which is just a } on its own? d% on the corresponding { sorta works, but I'd like to yank from the function signature line before it.
16:52:05 <Deewiant> y/^}$
16:52:17 <Deewiant> See also ][
16:53:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Hmm, [[ and ]] seem to do something. But not [ or ] on their own.
16:53:38 <Deewiant> I meant the specific command ']['
16:53:42 <Deewiant> :he ][
16:53:56 <Deewiant> And the last two paragraphs of :he section
16:54:43 <elliott> Ah, thanks.
16:54:51 <Deewiant> No problem.
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17:26:31 <nooga> vim is so awkward
17:32:44 <olsner> nooga: heathen!
17:33:52 <nooga> i just don't get the idea of writing some runes in a bar in order to edit code
17:34:01 <nooga> too much context switching
17:34:39 <olsner> Deewiant: if I remember the syntax, you can change ^ to \_ to find an indented }
17:35:16 <nooga> and you have to remember syntax
17:35:31 <olsner> but I'd probably end up doing something like Vj%d starting at the function line
17:36:08 <Deewiant> olsner: No such thing AFAICT
17:36:30 <Deewiant> ^\s*}$ of course works
17:37:04 <olsner> hmm, there is supposed to be special syntax for it, like how _ moves to first non-whitespace character
17:46:00 <olsner> I think the syntax I was thinking of was \_^ but that doesn't seem to mean what I want it to
17:46:56 <olsner> nooga: that's really no different from knowing the three million useful hotkeys you need to be productive in any other editor
17:47:32 <elliott> at least vim has a coherent language behind it
17:47:54 <nooga> true
18:17:57 <nooga> fffuu
18:19:00 <olsner> find f, find u, undo?
18:20:30 <nooga> no... major eval fuckup:
18:20:31 <nooga> > sq => (lambda (x) (* x x))
18:20:31 <nooga> > comp => (lambda (f g) (lambda (x) (f (g x))))
18:20:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
18:20:32 <nooga> > (comp sq sq) => (lambda (x) (f (g x)))
18:20:32 <lambdabot> can't find file: L.hs
18:20:33 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
18:20:40 <nooga> another fail ;/
18:22:32 <nooga> i wonder why
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18:26:27 <nooga> i mean
18:28:39 <quintopia> hi Gregor
18:29:14 <nooga> that's probably because interpreter's eval doesn't do anything with lambda
18:30:00 <olsner> ah, maybe you need to do something with lambda
18:30:49 <nooga> but what
18:31:30 <olsner> eta-expand? beta-reduce? apply a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism?
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18:36:21 <nooga> apply does B-reduction
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18:43:36 <Taneb> Hello
18:49:46 <quintopia> hi john_metcalf
18:59:08 <john_metcalf> Hi Taneb, Quintopia, all :-)
18:59:29 <Taneb> Who Is John Metcalf?
18:59:38 <Taneb> John Metcalf is john_metcalf
18:59:45 <Taneb> ...or his he?
19:01:06 <john_metcalf> Taneb: my bio :-P "I'm a recreational programmer interested in Core War, Forth, Smalltalk, assembly, programming games & algorithms ? Find me at http://RetroProgramming.com "
19:01:11 <nooga> this suc
19:01:12 <nooga> ks
19:01:31 <Taneb> How did you get RetroProgramming.com? Seems like a potentially much-desired URL
19:02:45 <john_metcalf> It was unregistered so I grabbed it. I also have http://programminggames.org http://corewar.co.uk and about 10 others...
19:03:02 <quintopia> john_metcalf: i was gonna say your retro programming needs a new bfjoust article. it has been 3 years. yours is out of date
19:03:09 <john_metcalf> It's a shame http://programming.??? are all occupied by squatters
19:03:31 <MDude> Are you a metal calf?
19:04:04 <MDude> Also, there are some new top level domains, maybe programming.xxx is available.
19:04:19 <Deewiant> programming.int appears to be free
19:04:25 <quintopia> nice
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19:04:42 <john_metcalf> quintopia: hmmm... maybe. I don't think there's anything I can write that isn't already covered by the strategy guide.
19:05:18 <john_metcalf> I tried to buy corewar.com recently, but they wouldn't drop the price below $3k :-(
19:05:24 <quintopia> john_metcalf: then you can say that the game has become more complex, post a modern example program and link the guide
19:05:36 <quintopia> just append it to the old article
19:06:05 <quintopia> also the scoring is about to change...
19:07:13 <john_metcalf> Good idea. I'll do that shortly after the new scoring. A new article but with a link from the two old articles.
19:07:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: "The .int TLD is strictly limited to organizations, offices, and programs which are endorsed by a treaty between two or more nations." It may be slightly different to get it.
19:08:16 <Deewiant> I know.
19:08:37 <fizzie> Then again, they had "ip6.int" in there, so maybe all it takes is a small bribe IANAwards.
19:09:10 <fizzie> On the bright side, there is no fee if you make the cut.
19:09:33 <Deewiant> But that was only when they were going to replace .arpa with .int. Nowadays it's ip6.arpa instead.
19:10:00 <fizzie> Yes, but they had it there, so certainly they can stick in whatever.
19:10:16 <fizzie> "programming.cat" is equally free if you just don't mind making it about programming in the Catalan language.
19:10:52 <Deewiant> "the application procedure requires the applicant to provide evidence that it is indeed treaty-based by providing a United Nations treaty registration number and that it has independent legal status."
19:11:22 <elliott> help
19:11:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm sure you could photoshop those.
19:12:14 <elliott> "lol.cat is a community tied by its love of cats, pictures supposed to be funny and Catalunia."
19:12:23 <elliott> I wasn't expecing there to be an actual Catalan link.
19:12:43 <fizzie> It's in the requirements, after all.
19:13:56 <itidus20> oh no, catalonia?
19:14:11 <fizzie> Also, "programming.museum" does not exist even though I would think there's at least one museum in the world about programming, or at least programming-related artefacts.
19:14:36 <itidus20> i was just reading a bit about salvador dali the other day
19:15:05 <itidus20> he described the earth as a head and catalonia as the nose
19:15:18 <itidus20> or catalon or whatever
19:15:33 <itidus20> clearly i as usual dont entirely know what i mean
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19:23:20 <pikhq_> Betcha プログラミング.日本 is open.
19:23:57 <monqy> me too
19:24:07 <pikhq_> *Argh*, that TLD DNE.
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19:25:46 <fizzie> China has two IDN ccTLDs (.中国 and .中國), while Japan has none. Such injustice.
19:26:40 <pikhq_> Japan's not requested one.
19:27:11 <pikhq_> Also, China has 2, 3 or 5, depending on what you count as 'China'.
19:27:19 <shachaf> monqy: Are you open?
19:27:25 <pikhq_> Hong Kong has a ccTLD, and Taiwan has two.
19:27:33 <boily> taiwan has two?
19:27:58 <pikhq_> .台灣 and .台湾
19:28:12 <pikhq_> (traditional and simplified)
19:28:18 <boily> oh, right.
19:28:37 <pikhq_> I can't fathom why they have both.
19:28:51 <fizzie> That's funny, Wikipedia's TLD list says "Open for registration to individuals/companies around Europe" for .fi, while the Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority's (who actually run it) site says you must either be an individual of "15 years of age; have a Finnish personal ID number; and live in a Finnish muncipality", or be a company/company-like entity that is "registered with the trade ...
19:28:52 <pikhq_> Simplified isn't much used in Taiwan, and traditional isn't much used in mainland China...
19:28:57 <fizzie> ... register or the registers of associations or foundations in Finland". (Which I think have some sort of presence requirements.)
19:29:24 <boily> is there automagic mirroring between the two forms, or can one register a domain with a version and not on the other?
19:29:53 <pikhq_> boily: They point to the same DNS server.
19:31:31 <fizzie> That's not exactly proof yet. Also, they have non-identical SOA serial numbers, unlike China's two forms.
19:32:13 <fizzie> (Sounds a bit strange if the contents weren't identical, though.)
19:34:33 <fizzie> Two isn't that much; India has seven (भारत, بھارت, భారత్, ભારત, ਭਾਰਤ, ভারত and இந்தியா, for the Hindi, Urdu, Telugu, Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali and Tamil languages, respectively).
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19:35:18 <fizzie> Comments in 'pedia say "not in use", though. But they've been allocamated.
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19:37:04 <boily> it's very strange to browse to a website with chinese characters in its domain name. a quick google with "site:.香港" gets this for example: http://网存.公司.香港/client.php
19:37:36 <fizzie> "TWNIC's Registration Policy and Technical Solution for the .台灣 and .台湾 IDN ccTLDs: -- TWNIC will implement a comprehensive registration policy and technical solution for the synchronized .台灣 ( xn--kpry57d , Traditional Chinese form) and .台湾 (xn--kprw13d, Simplified Chinese form) IDN ccTLD in order for ensuring the DNS stability and avoiding the user confusion. When registering ...
19:37:43 <fizzie> ... a "Traditional-Chinese-Characters.台灣", a set of corresponding registrations will be received at the same time, including "Traditional- Chinese-Characters.台湾", "Simplified-Chinese-Characters.台灣" and "Simplified-Chinese-Characters.台湾"."
19:37:47 <fizzie> So they are synchronized, yes.
19:38:21 <fizzie> Even in a way that you can mix-and-match the actual domain and TLD parts if you feel like it.
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20:01:40 <Taneb> Goodbye!
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20:20:25 * Phantom_Hoover has a sudden, unpleasant realisation that he will never be able to enjoy Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
20:20:45 <nortti> why?
20:21:03 <quintopia> that does seem unpleasant
20:48:30 <pikhq_> Severe memetic overload, no doubt.
20:48:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Thankfully, most other Monty Python stuff doesn't have that problem.
20:49:10 <shachaf> pikhq_: "most other Monty Python stuff" is just stupid. :-(
20:49:12 <quintopia> the trick is to have seen it before the memery
20:49:13 <shachaf> Usually on purpose.
20:49:21 <quintopia> shachaf: no
20:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, it's a mixed bag, yeah.
20:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem is that a lot of the humour comes from unpredictability, and the constant quoting has the effect of spoiling the joke whilst removing it from the context that would make it somewhat funny.
20:52:06 <shachaf> I don't think doing things just for the unpredictability is very funny.
20:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Life of Brian is good because a) it's not quoted completely to death and b) it's more of a straight satire.
20:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also when it's funny it's not just because it's silly and unpredictable; it's just a necessary element.
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21:37:01 <Sgeo> I am addicted to A Bit of Fry and Laurie
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21:51:03 <quintopia> sprunge has stopped printing the URL where your file goes. wtf sprunge.
21:53:26 <monqy> i have that problem too
21:53:57 <quintopia> i would think so. it is on sprunge's end after all
22:00:37 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
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22:48:08 <nortti> how do I quote ( or ) in scheme?
22:51:47 <elliott> what
22:52:45 <nortti> I can't find a way to quote '(' or ')' in scheme
22:53:03 <elliott> what do you mean
22:53:05 <elliott> you sound confused
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22:53:26 <ais523> Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 4.0.4; en-us; Galaxy Nexus Build/IMM76L; CyanogenMod-9) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/534.30
22:53:26 <nortti> I mean quoting.
22:53:30 <ais523> beautiful
22:54:03 <elliott> nortti: yes
22:54:04 <ais523> I hadn't realised that UAs were getting even more complex now mobiles are running around, but in retrospect it was inevitable
22:54:07 <elliott> nortti: what do you mean by quoting
22:54:22 <nortti> elliott: for example you can quote a with 'a or (a b) with '(a b) but how do I quote single ) or (
22:54:24 <ion> I can’t find a way to quote elliott in scheme.
22:54:46 <nortti> ion: 'elliott
22:54:59 <elliott> nortti: that's an incoherent question
22:55:02 <elliott> you quote an s-expression
22:55:07 <elliott> ( and ) are not s-expressions
22:55:10 <elliott> 'foo is sugar for (quote foo)
22:55:16 <elliott> so '( would be... (quote ()
22:55:17 <elliott> that's meaningles
22:55:18 <elliott> s
22:55:51 <nortti> yes. I want to put atom named ( in my scheme program
22:56:43 <elliott> do you mean symbol
22:57:03 <nortti> yes if it is called that in scheme
22:57:24 <elliott> well, you can do (string->symbol "("). note that string->symbol will return a different symbol each time you call it iirc, i.e.
22:57:32 <elliott> (not (eq? (string->symbol "a") (string->symbol "a"))
22:57:34 <elliott> )
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23:06:37 <Vorpal> Is it worth getting a screen protector for a smart phone?
23:06:44 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:07:02 <Vorpal> Thinking about those fancy ones using the fancy material designed to protect helicopter rotors originally
23:07:07 <Vorpal> not sure how good they are though
23:07:27 <Vorpal> and gorilla glass is quite scratch resistant anyway, isn't it?
23:07:43 <elliott> they'll mess with multitouch
23:07:48 <Vorpal> hm okay
23:07:50 <Vorpal> that is bad
23:08:08 <Vorpal> guess a case of some sort is a better (though more annoying) investment
23:08:47 <elliott> or you could just hold it
23:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, hm?
23:09:07 <elliott> you don't really need a case :P
23:09:09 <Vorpal> I meant for when it is in my pocket
23:09:13 <Vorpal> with my keys
23:09:15 <Vorpal> and what notr
23:09:17 <Vorpal> not*
23:09:21 <elliott> fair enough
23:09:51 <Vorpal> elliott, either that or I have to start carrying everything but the phone in my right pocket instead
23:10:03 <Vorpal> which could get a bit bulky
23:10:16 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the main cause of broken smartphone screens actually is.
23:10:21 <Vorpal> since I tend to have asthma medicine in that pocket. Which is bulky in itself
23:10:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not so worried about broken as I am about scratched
23:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, all of the breakages I've seen have been fractures radiating from a point on the edge, so I'm guessing you really need to cushion the edges.
23:11:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I seen that sort of thing radiating from a place in the middle of the screen
23:11:13 <Vorpal> hm
23:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're worrying about scratches some cheapo plastic things should do.
23:11:29 <Vorpal> hm
23:11:34 <Vorpal> they get scratched though
23:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, the point is they're trivially replacable.
23:12:15 <Vorpal> that copter screenprotector and the "invisible shield" thingy (same deal, different vendor) seem extremely scratch resistant from what I have read
23:12:22 <Vorpal> as in, completely.
23:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Then use a casing for the edges and back, to protect against the aforementioned problem with the edges focusing stress onto the screen.
23:12:36 <Vorpal> probably a good idea
23:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And... do you really want to eliminate scratches, or stop them being permanent?
23:13:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, not having to buy new protectors every few months would be nice?
23:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Get, like, 10 at once or something?
23:13:32 <Vorpal> hm, not sure which solution is cheapest
23:13:43 <Vorpal> in the long run I mean
23:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> How long do you plan to keep the phone for?
23:14:12 <Vorpal> until it breaks or I absolutely need a new
23:14:21 <Vorpal> that is what I always do with phones
23:14:31 <Vorpal> my current phone is maybe 7 years old now
23:14:58 <Vorpal> and kind of breaking, and no longer provides sufficient features for me
23:15:22 <Vorpal> I would say that with the state the plastic back of it is in now it is a question of months until it breaks
23:15:26 <Vorpal> maybe weeks
23:15:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so the answer is: "for a really long time"
23:15:51 <Vorpal> I'm getting a high end phone so I expect it to last for a while
23:16:04 <Vorpal> hell it costs almost half of what my thinkpad cost(!)
23:16:18 <Vorpal> (I have an R-series thinkpad though, not T-series)
23:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... not sure high-end equates with durability.
23:17:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, didn't claim so. I meant that it should be sufficiently fast to run things several years down the line.
23:17:15 <Vorpal> and have enough storage and so on
23:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well yeah, but what's the point if it breaks after 3 years?
23:21:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, using a case should protect it against physical damage.
23:21:29 <Vorpal> to a large degree
23:27:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >-(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(+)*50(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*28
23:27:40 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 49.7
23:30:12 <quintopia> interesting fact: brachiation2 beats fewer programs than brachiation, yet has a better score. any theories?
23:31:16 <david_werecat> I've noticed this about the scoring. Still no idea why, though.
23:31:17 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:37:30 <elliott> quintopia: it beats better programs
23:38:37 <quintopia> elliott: dingdingding!
23:38:42 <quintopia> it beats ffspg
23:39:10 <quintopia> also it beats brachiation. i wonder how much the score would go down if i beleeted brachiation
23:39:37 <david_werecat> quintopia: BTW, the most updated attack scheme is (([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
23:39:47 <david_werecat> I think you caught an in-edit
23:40:00 <quintopia> um
23:40:18 <quintopia> nope that's exactly the one brachiation2 uses
23:41:07 <david_werecat> Really? It looks like (([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21 instead.
23:41:30 <david_werecat> Which is one more [+ and has the ]>] over by one.
23:41:32 <quintopia> lets find out oh yer right
23:41:42 <quintopia> well do you think its better
23:41:57 <david_werecat> It gives me a better score in leviathan.
23:42:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >-(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(+)*50(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*28
23:42:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 50.1
23:42:09 <quintopia> ah okay cool
23:42:11 <quintopia> well
23:42:16 <quintopia> time for experiment!
23:43:20 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation <
23:43:22 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 0.0
23:43:54 <quintopia> looks like brachiation2 went UP when i beleeted it
23:43:57 <quintopia> neeeeeat
23:44:18 <quintopia> (of course, so did everything else, including leviathan)
23:45:57 <david_werecat> Wow, taking out brachiation causes leviathan's score to go up by 2
23:46:48 <elliott> welcome to hill effects
23:46:58 <elliott> this stuff was fully predicted and hashed out in 2009 :P
23:56:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hill effects?
23:56:52 <elliott> yes
23:58:37 <quintopia> but it won't happen like that under my system. brachiation2-in-the-absence-of-brachiation actually rates lower than brachiation-in-the-absence-of-brachiation2 under quintopia_scoring_system
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