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01:00:28 <kmc> i don't know what twenty sided is
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01:26:35 <kmc> is there a well-known brainfuck derivative which uses goto instead of "structured" control?
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01:36:37 <HackEgo> luke2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:36:52 <luke2> hey quin..thank you
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02:02:38 <calamari> I'm assuming everyone already saw google.com but just in case...
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02:47:23 <zzo38> kmc: I think "Bub" uses goto
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03:00:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
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03:00:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday! | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
03:02:28 <zzo38> The ITMCK sends the .IT to a file rather than stdout because it may need to seek the file that it is writing. It could probably be done without seeking but that would be a bit more complicated to program.
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03:05:25 <zzo38> If I could make it do without seeking, then I will change it to send the output to stdout instead.
03:06:54 <zzo38> Status messages (which include warning messages and error messages) will always go to stderr, so it won't interfere, except if you use "itmck -v" in which case it sends the version string to stdout and stops, and doesn't send anything to stderr.
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03:33:00 <Vorpal> wow the google logo thing atm.
03:33:35 * oerjan wonders if google's TM is the same as he used in Underload
03:34:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Binary_counting_Turing_machine
03:35:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, try the thing out, it looks like you have to press those buttons to make it run the "right" program?
03:35:28 <oerjan> oh there is more than one?
03:35:30 <Vorpal> to configure the rules for the head that is
03:35:47 <oerjan> it starts out as a binary counter
03:35:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, well if the tapes ends up matching the string above it goes on to colouring the next letter in the logo it seems?
03:38:05 <Vorpal> and once you completed the whole "Google" it starts over but runs automatically
03:38:15 <oerjan> you are talking about what happens when you press the green button, i assume
03:38:42 <Vorpal> and finally it automatically googles "Allan Turing"
03:38:52 <oerjan> ...as i said, it starts out doing a binary counter even if you don't press anything
03:39:01 <Vorpal> oh right, didn't notice that
03:41:01 * oerjan manages to get one letter colored but still has no clue what the actual system for settings is
03:41:26 <Vorpal> you just press the button thingy to make it run the right program?
03:41:30 <Vorpal> I found it quite simple
03:41:49 <oerjan> well i managed to get the second
03:42:08 <Vorpal> it seems to be a simple finite state machine with some symbols invented for various tests and writes to the tape and what not
03:42:09 <oerjan> i just don't understand how it represents the actual program
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03:42:31 <Vorpal> uh? It seems trivial to turn it into a finite state machine.
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03:43:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, so basically the thing below the tape is the control mechanism
03:43:14 <oerjan> oh well it seems like there isn't that much choice in what to press
03:43:15 <Vorpal> or what is it that you are not clear on?
03:43:28 <Vorpal> it gets a bit more choice towards the end
03:43:38 <Vorpal> I guess they thought people were stupid (accurate!)
03:44:44 <oerjan> i suppose it has to be intuitive, given that i seem to make the right choice anyhow :P
03:51:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, still not a bad "event logo" I think
03:51:32 <oerjan> indeed. i think i finally understood that it's starting at the left end...
03:52:09 <Vorpal> it was a "complete the program puzzle"
03:53:07 <oerjan> yes, but i somehow thought the brightly colored button was where it started...
03:55:27 <oerjan> i still don't know why that second last one worked...
03:55:39 <oerjan> ("worked" after i tried all options, that is)
03:56:08 <Vorpal> also I don't remember which one it was. I just traced through the program logically until I found a solution
03:57:35 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDoze.
03:59:14 <oerjan> ah finally i think i got the system at the last one (needed only one try despite four buttons)
04:01:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah it was easy
04:02:12 <Vorpal> these are trivial finite state machines to trace in your head.
04:02:31 <oerjan> I BET YOU THINK MENSA TESTS AREN'T HIDEOUSLY AMBIGUOUS EITHER
04:03:10 <Vorpal> I just found these finite state machines trivial after the first one (where I had to figure out what the hell was going on in general)
04:03:28 <oerjan> i guess my problem was i didn't _have_ to find out until the last one :P
04:04:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could have tried all combos for the last one
04:05:07 <Vorpal> forgot how many states each had
04:05:15 <Vorpal> so yeah 2*2*3*3 or something?
04:05:52 <Vorpal> which if I remember the number of conditionals accurately thus yields 36 combinations
04:06:00 * oerjan tried restarting and is wondering if this _is_ the same puzzle as last time
04:06:16 <Vorpal> oh maybe they are random
04:06:31 <Vorpal> yeah this looks the same to me
04:10:48 <Vorpal> hm I'm going to bed I think.
04:12:57 * oerjan is pretty sure he's on a different set of puzzles now. maybe using the back button after the "Alan Turing" search works differently.
04:13:20 <oerjan> i mean, this one has 6 buttons.
04:16:01 <oerjan> this one has _no_ options and looks like it may be inspired by the konami code
04:16:41 <kmc> how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo
04:17:00 <oerjan> no javascript or something?
04:17:24 <oerjan> these things aren't always rolled out consistently everywhere
04:17:34 <kmc> well we're on the same internet connection now
04:17:37 <kmc> but even so, yeah
04:17:45 <oerjan> different language settings?
04:17:56 <kmc> did you work out what the bit sequences mean?
04:18:17 <oerjan> wait, there was a puzzle to that too?
04:18:24 <oerjan> i didn't pay attention.
04:27:20 * Sgeo looks at Io for some reason
04:40:28 <Sgeo> I should learn to try writing code for languages that interest me
04:40:33 <Sgeo> Rather than just... doing nothing
04:50:37 <kmc> better yet, write programs that interest you
04:51:14 <kmc> do something cool and stop obsessing over what tools you used to do it
04:56:32 <zzo38> What program do you want to write?
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05:19:39 <itidus21> Sgeo: i chose early on in life that my life would be about computer game software
05:22:25 <zzo38> What computer game?
05:33:20 <zzo38> Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality?
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05:40:24 <itidus21> well, i like to begin by categorizing events into good and bad, to demonstrate that inspite of my imagination bad things of all sorts happen... but also then stepping back and considering myself then as something which categorizes, which is itself a category
05:40:36 <itidus21> its worth noting i don't know what category means in mathematical sense
05:41:40 <itidus21> but i also know that my body will die, perhaps while doing one of these arbitrary categorizations
05:47:29 <itidus21> i find that once you remove a daily routine of going into public each day, it does help you realize things.. it's a bit like the movie terminal
05:48:09 <itidus21> in reality theres no invisible hand to save us if we get trapped by some flaw in societys logic
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06:09:35 <shachaf> Are there any languages other than Haskell that unify (or try to, at least) exceptions and error return values?
06:17:28 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions on what would be simple and efficient way to store the effect frames for each channel internally before converting them to patterns?
06:20:03 <zzo38> I could just store each effect frame individually together with length if applicable, but that might be too long?
06:22:25 <itidus21> zzo38: it may be best to ask me about reality when i'm perhaps 10 years older, less depressed and more mentally stable. as it is i tend to freak out about once a day and prone to paranoia
06:27:30 <kmc> shachaf: what does that mean?
06:28:44 <shachaf> kmc: Maybe and Either are concrete return values that can be checked normally, but can also be treated like exceptions.
06:29:38 <itidus21> if reality was safe, we wouldn't have so many safety devices and warning labels on everything. wander too far off the beaten track and theres no more of those
06:29:47 <shachaf> > do { x <- Right 1; y <- Left "oops"; return (x + y) } -- And all that.
06:30:07 <shachaf> Where you have exceptions they're type-checked by their nature.
06:31:57 <shachaf> In a lot of languages people argue about exceptions being unpredictable and return values being inconvenient and so on.
06:32:06 <zzo38> Yes you do have the Maybe and Either monads (and Maybe is like Either () anyways). You get their Kleisli category of partial functions with error messages from that monad.
06:32:08 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether Haskell gives you the best or the worst of both worlds. :-)
06:32:17 <shachaf> But at least it's something.
06:32:40 <zzo38> What I think is that, it works well in the way you program it to work in the way you want it to work if it can be done with Haskell.
06:34:20 <zzo38> I also think there should be Alternative and MonadPlus instance for Either; it would be the same as what my Alternative and MonadPlus instances would be for Free monad and my Alternative instance for Const, if you use (Free (Const x)) like (Either x)
06:34:34 <zzo38> And then it also works with (Free Finalize) for Maybe
06:37:34 <zzo38> instance Plus f => Plus (Free f) where { zero = Free zero; plus (Pure x) _ = Pure x; plus _ (Pure x) = Pure x; plus (Free x) (Free y) = Free (plus x y); };
06:38:16 <itidus21> "<zzo38> Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality?" certainly mathematical analysis is available for every situation. it is in a sense inescapable much like the space-time continuum.
06:39:33 <itidus21> but still, the ultimate act of categorization is "what am i?" and "what do i need to be?" and if i am already what i need to be then the question is "why am i?"
06:42:02 <itidus21> and if it is correct for me to ask why am i, is it correct for everyone to ask it? so then "why am i and why is everybody?"
06:43:03 <itidus21> in asking these things though, the asker already knows that theres no answer to the question..
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07:03:16 <itidus21> reality can extend to culture too.. like we have some sense of a culture, akin to our primitive senses.. the whole concept of a "theme"
07:04:08 <itidus21> like a well-kept grandmothers house with lots of flowers on every piece of furnishing in site, and lots of sandwiches and tea and cookies being offered
07:05:50 <itidus21> so apparently in psychology they call such a thing a schema
07:09:08 <itidus21> so .. to be fair i was asked the question. maybe a rant was not anticipated. i am done with it. i didn't mean to offend anyone.
07:19:50 <zzo38> Have you ever invented the word "Yeshuaism"?
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07:43:30 <itidus21> i think it's fascinating that everyone has unique fingerprints.. what does it mean zzo38?
07:44:55 <itidus21> to the extent that we are our bodies, then we are also our fingerprints
07:46:17 <zzo38> It only means fingerprints are a kind of unique idenfication, that's all
07:49:38 <itidus21> one positive thing about them is they are all equal
07:50:04 <itidus21> it's a symbol of equality in diversity
07:51:17 <pikhq_> itidus21: That can be solved.
07:51:40 <pikhq_> With careful application of surgical techniques, one can have fingerprints removed.
07:51:55 <itidus21> like theres usually someone with the same first and surname as us.. someone with the same birthday as us. someone born in the same place as us. same blood type as us.. (although combined these elements do tend to make a unique id)
07:52:23 <pikhq_> I'm probably the only living "Josiah Worcester".
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07:52:48 <pikhq_> Though I was able to find a historical "Josiah Worcester".
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07:52:59 <pikhq_> Probably me with a TARDIS.
07:53:35 <itidus21> zzo38: ok uh.. suppose that uh.. there was a bfjoust-like thing except based on an interpretation of fingerprints
07:53:54 <itidus21> i think that could be interesting
07:54:25 <itidus21> or for those people who don't have fingerprints.. well.. i don't know how to answer that
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07:56:22 <zzo38> itidus21: I have written in the esolang list of ideas, one idea interpret the lines on your hand as a computer program; this can be done with fingerprints too.
07:56:43 <itidus21> its hard to have a fucking original idea these days eh
07:57:41 <pikhq_> Yup, afraid the originalium ore was all mined up.
08:04:28 <zzo38> Actually I think it is the Bob Profit Principle.
08:06:05 <itidus21> zzo38: =)) you're the only result i get in google for "bob proffitt principle"
08:06:26 <itidus21> and.. more disturbingly you were addressing me then also
08:06:27 <zzo38> That is because it isn't on Google.
08:06:46 <itidus21> 11.07.30 08:52:07 <zzo38> itidus20: I have heard that being called the "Bob Proffitt Principle"
08:06:58 <itidus21> is this itself the principle in action?
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08:07:45 <itidus21> maybe it means i repeat myself
08:08:11 <zzo38> It means that since you probably are not the smartest person in the world (and maybe even if you are), if you have some idea, it is likely that other people have very similar ideas too.
08:08:30 <itidus21> <itidus20> anyway, i am great at independant discovery <itidus20> but I can't seem to actually think of anything which hasn't been thought of before
08:09:17 <itidus21> <Taneb> Most of my ideas are stupid <Taneb> And probably been done before
08:09:19 <zzo38> But yes many people can discover/invent something independently, it seems espacially to be the case in mathematics. Including my ideas about mathematics, too.
08:10:12 <zzo38> Do you like mathematics?
08:10:43 <itidus21> i think that i would like mathematics if only i saw it correctly
08:11:34 <itidus21> i don't know what motivates mathematicians if infact noone sees mathematics correctly
08:11:54 <kmc> i may not be the smartest person in the world but i can pick a 128-bit number that nobody else has ever picked before!
08:12:21 <monqy> what does it mean to see mathematics correctly
08:12:27 <monqy> what does it mean to see mathematics incorrectly
08:12:38 <monqy> "food for itidus21thought"
08:12:40 <kmc> seriously, human endeavor is so broad that you hardly need to be a world-class genius to be original in *some* field
08:13:27 <itidus21> monqy: well i think it helps to see numbers as abstractions of measurement (i don't know if this is so) and arithmetic as a means of manipulating those measurements
08:13:32 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes; I did not mean all ideas are very similar to others, I just mean that many will be.
08:14:47 <itidus21> but, at the same time, i think numbers can be used to say like, red = 1, blue = 2, orange = 3, white = 4, violet = 5, green = 6
08:14:48 <zzo38> itidus21: Not all mathematics is numbers and measurement!
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08:19:53 <itidus21> people are so annoying that children leave their homes even at the cost of having to pay rent
08:21:37 <itidus21> 1000s of days to be spent doing some tedious labour at a factory to pay the rent all to escape the annoyances of ones family
08:22:32 <kmc> red = 1, green = 2, yellow = 3, blue = 4, magenta = 5, cyan = 6, white = 7
08:23:22 <monqy> itidus21: does this mean being annoying "helps the economy" ? ? ? ? ?
08:23:28 <monqy> "food for itidus21thought"
08:27:18 <itidus21> monqy: well, about seeing it correctly, a question is if i am counting am i using mathematics? :D
08:28:00 <itidus21> or is mathematics in this regard an analysis of counting :-?
08:28:10 <monqy> food for itidus21thought.
08:28:55 <itidus21> oh monqy, i have to show you my turing machine some time
08:30:13 <itidus21> to see my turing machine in action visit this TM simulator http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html and the pastebin has the necessary code and explanation http://pastebin.com/XJf4cPyd
08:30:22 <itidus21> fwiw this is a more interesting input "....888.s..c..>.|..8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8....|...<...888.c.c...c."
08:34:58 <monqy> I'll take your word !
08:37:08 <itidus21> the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step
08:42:39 <itidus21> brainfuck seems to replace write_symbol with increment_symbol/decrement_symbol. and read_symbol replaced with read_isblank.
08:45:40 <itidus21> as for comparing the state changing mechanism to the [ ] system, well thats not so trivial for me
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09:10:41 <zzo38> Do you like to have closed classes and automatic classes in Haskell (or Ibtlfmm)? Automatic classes are a generalization of closed classes. In Haskell, it might be done by a TH function usable in a class declaration and having the type: ([Type] -> Q (Maybe [Dec])) -> Q [Dec]
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09:22:49 <oerjan> <itidus21> the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step
09:24:24 <oerjan> um i was going to say that's why my minimal TM brainfuck proof uses 3 cells instead of just 2, but that's more a comparison with minsky machines.
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09:40:28 <fizzie> itidus21: You can convert from (finite-cell) brainfuck to TM easily by making the bf program pointer value equal the TM state number. Something like http://sprunge.us/ZgOY (untested).
09:40:52 <fizzie> (It's in the NTCM syntax.)
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11:07:25 <monqy> i can't just make up interesting facts on command !
11:07:41 <monqy> (thats monqy fact #1)
11:08:04 <monqy> monqy fact #2 is that that's monqy fact #1, btw
11:08:27 <shachaf> Are there any other monqy facts?
11:08:36 <monqy> for instance: monqy fact #4
11:09:42 <monqy> "there are 4 monqy facts"
11:10:13 <monqy> don't asl about monqy fact #5
11:10:24 <monqy> it's a bad idea to ask about things that don't exist
11:10:38 <shachaf> monqy: What's monqy fact #6?
11:11:06 <monqy> there are only four monqy facts !!!
11:11:26 <shachaf> Are you going to explode now?
11:11:41 <monqy> if you want more facts you can make up a "shachaf facts" or something
11:11:57 <shachaf> monqy: tell me a "shachaffacts"
11:12:09 <monqy> only you, shachaf, can "shachaf facts"
11:12:16 <monqy> similarly, if you want explosions, you can explode upon exhaustion of "shachaf facts"
11:12:27 <monqy> explode to your heart's desire
11:12:31 <shachaf> monqy fact #7: there are more than 20 monqy facts
11:12:31 <monqy> if you don't desire it
11:12:47 <monqy> monqy lies #1 is that
11:13:15 <monqy> it's monqy lies #1 but misnumbered
11:13:36 <shachaf> what:'(s monqy lies #2 :'(
11:13:52 <monqy> monqy lies #2 is "the number of monqy lies is greater than two"
11:14:21 <shachaf> monqy: what:'(s monqy lies #4
11:14:29 <monqy> it doesn't exist!!!!
11:15:48 <itidus21> #1 monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!
11:15:56 <itidus21> #2 the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1
11:16:01 <itidus21> #3 fact the text "the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1" is fact #2
11:16:03 <fizzie> :) is the scariest smiley.
11:16:36 <shachaf> itidus21: #2 is that monqy fact #1 is that monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command
11:19:48 <itidus21> shachaf: i'm starting to break through the math notations.
11:20:25 <itidus21> my time in this room may be paying off in the long term
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12:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Google didn't use a proper TM control mechanism for the doodle :/
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12:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> A TM as originally defined doesn't have an instruction list like the doodle does, it has a FSM with tape operations.
12:27:35 <Lumpio-> nortti is probably using something like lynx
12:28:12 <itidus21> don't worry nortti, you're only missing the chance to criticize something
12:28:13 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: That instruction list is a FSM
12:28:19 <Lumpio-> Perhaps to make it more accessible.
12:28:19 <nortti> but I usually use google wit my s_google shell script
12:29:02 <itidus21> nortti: to celebrate alan turing's 100th birthday, google put up a small TM-based quiz on their homepage
12:29:03 <Lumpio-> Considering that less than 5% of the people who see it understand what it is without googling it
12:29:06 <Lumpio-> I think it's niche enough :P
12:30:47 <itidus21> probably a great deal less than 5%
12:32:01 * itidus21 wonders how i ended up down this rabbit hole.
12:32:10 * itidus21 wonders how he ended up down this rabbit hole.
12:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel probably has one of the highest concentrations of people who know how a TM works, and I'm not sure how many here actually know how a TM works.
12:33:42 <Lumpio-> I got 5% by using the Steson-Harrison method so
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12:39:09 <nortti> ? it doesn't work in hv3. is the TM written in js?
12:39:56 <nortti> strange. google still gives me static version even if I use hv3 with js enabled
12:40:20 <itidus21> nortti: believe me sir i understand why you feel a need to see it
12:40:31 <itidus21> even though it is a pithy nothing
12:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, you could try using a graphical browser, but I suspect you have some objection or other to that.
12:41:41 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: hv3 is graphical browser with js support. even links2 is graphical
12:42:15 <itidus21> i downloaded 225mb worth of japanese game manuals (11 or them) for the neo geo game console, just to see them
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12:43:56 <itidus21> in other worse, i'm a conservative user of internet bandwidth, unlike anyone streaming video constantly
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12:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, in that case, a mainstream browser, but you definitely will have some objection or other to that.
12:49:34 <fizzie> What an amazing reward for completing the doodle, though: a search for "Alan Turing".
12:49:51 <nortti> is bon echo mainstream enough?
12:51:29 <fizzie> Incidentally, I got a static version on the N900 browser too, even though it's a Gecko-based thing that certainly should be capable of running it.
12:52:17 <nortti> maybe it works by detecting user agent or something stupid
12:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I'm tired of this game, do you have any actual reason not to just point the latest Firefox or Chromium at it.
12:53:52 <nortti> yes. running out of RAM on browser startup and swap thrashing that slows it to unusable speed
12:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I was trying to remember what point you were trying to prove.
12:54:51 <itidus21> nortti: i understand your predicament
12:55:33 <itidus21> i spent real time searching though google for the japanese manual or the nintendo famicom game "super mario usa"
12:56:15 <itidus21> yes.. known in the west as "super mario bros. 2"
12:56:15 <fizzie> The user agent for the N900 browser is "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux armv7l; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.3pre) Gecko/20100723 Firefox/3.5 Maemo Browser 1.7.4.8 RX-51 N900" which I would think should look mainstream enough.
12:56:40 <itidus21> they released it in japan as "super mario usa"
12:57:44 <itidus21> nortti: there is something i can do though to help!
12:58:11 <Lumpio-> Super Mario ★★★ U S A FUCK YEAH
12:59:13 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/chromium-acid.png well that was a poor showing.
12:59:35 <fizzie> I mean, sure, it's an impressive 100/100, but it's not quite like the reference image.
12:59:43 <itidus21> nortti: click this pic http://oi50.tinypic.com/5cbw2x.jpg
13:00:15 <itidus21> thats roughly what it looks like..
13:00:30 <Lumpio-> nortti: I suggest you install Chromium, all websites runs mighty fine on it.
13:00:32 <itidus21> the only interacting is to toggle the yellow buttons between a few states
13:00:38 <itidus21> and then click the green button
13:00:47 <Lumpio-> And it should run smoothly on a modern system with at least 4GB of RAM and a recent processor
13:00:53 <itidus21> so now your curiosity might be relieved.. and you don't need to load it
13:01:30 <nortti> Lumpio-: yeah. the swap trashing even on midori was so horrible I am not installing that bloatware
13:01:44 <itidus21> nortti: are you able to view jpeg links?
13:01:52 <Lumpio-> nortti: Maybe you don't have enough RAM.
13:02:04 <Lumpio-> itidus21: The fact that you even have to ask that is sad.
13:02:10 <itidus21> i took a screenshot of the page in question.. its the most i can do :-D
13:02:25 <nortti> Lumpio-: oh really? I have 64MB of RAM
13:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, I think you may not be able to call modern software 'bloatware' when your system has decade-old specs.
13:03:09 <Lumpio-> nortti: I'm sorry but that's below the minimum requirements of modern life.
13:03:22 <Lumpio-> itidus21: Remember that it's much bigger uncompressed
13:04:16 <itidus21> my graphics card(which my brother gave to me as a kind birthday present this year) has 1gb of ram
13:04:30 <itidus21> i can't help but be amused by 64mb ram
13:05:32 <nortti> itidus21: don't have 64 millibits of RAM
13:05:32 <Lumpio-> I think it's OK to play with retro stuff
13:05:42 <Lumpio-> But you can't honestly expect everybody else to play along
13:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, playing with it is great fun. Using it as your primary system?
13:06:05 <nortti> retro? this is only 12 years old for gods sake
13:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> My neighbour did use his Acorn Archimedes up til a few years ago, but he really only used it for word processing.
13:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, hey fun fact, computer hardware has a short life-cycle!
13:07:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you know that there's this thing called 'Moore's Law'?
13:07:46 <nortti> but still. I can call my 18 year old server retro but this T20 isn't
13:08:22 <nortti> what is the definition of retro then?
13:08:53 <fizzie> 1. retro -- (a fashion reminiscent of the past)
13:08:59 <lambdabot> *** "retro" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:08:59 <lambdabot> adj 1: affecting things past; "retroactive tax increase"; "an
13:08:59 <lambdabot> ex-post-facto law"; "retro pay" [syn: {ex post facto},
13:09:01 <lambdabot> n 1: a fashion reminiscent of the past
13:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And even a dictionary does not reflect vernacular usage.
13:09:18 <fizzie> lambdabot *is* a dictionary.
13:10:11 <fizzie> Is it the ThinkPad sort of T20?
13:10:27 <fizzie> That should come with 128 MB standard.
13:10:30 <fizzie> You've been shortcharged.
13:10:49 <nortti> yes. this is taken from dumpster
13:11:01 <fizzie> I guess in that case you can't complain.
13:11:16 <nortti> 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find
13:12:08 <fizzie> IT doesn't have more than one slot? According to specs, you could fill it up to 512 MB officially.
13:12:33 <fizzie> "Recognizes up to 512 MB of addressable memory in models with the Mobile Pentium III processor. Memory options up to 256 MB SDRAM SODIMMs each can be added in the two available slots for memory expansion."
13:12:57 <nortti> fizzie: other slot is damaged
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13:13:15 <nortti> it doesn't recognise RAM in there
13:13:25 <fizzie> Oh. No wonder it was in a dumpster.
13:14:21 <nortti> 16:12 < nortti> 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find
13:15:06 <Phantom_Hoover> When you say 'find' I assume you mean 'find in the dumpster'.
13:15:38 <nortti> at used computer store
13:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I hope you do something nice with the 20 or so you've saved.
13:16:21 <nortti> it had no ram and no hd when it was thrown in there
13:16:49 <nortti> well it is my most powerful computer...
13:16:56 <fizzie> How much money have you invested in this computer?
13:17:33 <nortti> fizzie: 2 euros for ram sticks and 4 euros for HD (from friend)
13:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile for 20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs.
13:19:40 <nortti> raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told)
13:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it.
13:21:28 <nortti> well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one
13:23:42 <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:23:52 <fizzie> s/modern/mainstream/ or whatever.
13:24:26 <fizzie> I see there's a Firefox 2 port, too.
13:24:51 <nortti> well bon echo runs on it and I might be able to port my bit updated fork of gecko 1.8 to it
13:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (What is even the deal with Firefox versions? I remember when 2.6 was A Big Deal and now it's up to 13.)
13:25:23 <nortti> there is no firefox 2.6
13:25:48 <fizzie> They had to catch up Chrome is what I think is the deal.
13:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, sorry, why isn't the thing called Firefox 2.6 actually Firefox 2.6?
13:26:21 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: what is 2.6? or do you mean 3.6?
13:26:58 <itidus21> firefox probably has more users than linux
13:27:11 <fizzie> Anyway, it's now six weeks per major Firefox version, it's just their scheme.
13:27:28 <fizzie> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease and all that.
13:27:37 <nortti> I think that firefox's versioning went to hell after 3
13:28:53 <itidus21> i read that the godfather II set the precident for numbered sequals in hollywood
13:30:02 <itidus21> the fact that they called the sequal of "the godfather" as "the godfather II"
13:31:04 <itidus21> up until then apparently hollywood had been conciously avoiding numbered sequels
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13:35:21 <nortti> I still call firefox 3<x<11 firefox 4 series and firefox 10<x<18 firefox 5 series (switching at ESR)
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13:36:34 <nortti> (and internaly I tweaked my builds to report gecko version as 2.0 and 2.1)
13:37:42 <nortti> 10 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 5 series. 17 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 6 series and so on
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13:39:51 <nortti> because 3.6 which is comparable to ESR terminated 3.x series
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13:51:02 <john_metcalf> Monqy fact #7 has to exist to be a lie. Therefore monqy fact #4 is also a lie.
13:51:16 <john_metcalf> So there are at least two Monqy facts we don't know,
13:51:57 <elliott> I've never been more confused in my life. Except when talking to monqy
13:53:01 <elliott> 13:23:42: <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:53:17 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ has an HTML 5 parser and does CSS.
13:53:59 <nortti> netsurf is nice browser. if I'd only get the framebuffer version to build
13:54:59 <itidus21> a given monqy fact can address itself or another given monqy fact!
13:55:23 <Vorpal> <kmc> how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo <-- I checked on a phone and all I got was a simple logo
13:55:33 <Vorpal> kmc, so maybe he was using a different browser?
13:55:45 <elliott> kmc: Or timezones, perhaps.
13:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, they were on the same connection
13:56:24 <itidus21> theres probably some autistic savants who if they numbered lines in their conversations could talk very efficiently
13:57:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> 13:23:42: <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:57:43 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you looking for an old browser?
13:57:57 <Vorpal> just use lynx or something?
13:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Why are you responding to a quote out of context and assuming context for it?
13:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I read the line below as well
13:58:48 <Vorpal> anyway if the context was wrong, okay, whatever
13:59:31 <nortti> 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile for ■20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs.
13:59:34 <nortti> 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Also it would be awesome./
13:59:37 <nortti> 16:20 < nortti> raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told)
13:59:39 <nortti> 16:21 < Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it.
13:59:42 <nortti> 16:22 < nortti> well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one
13:59:47 <nortti> 16:24 < fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
14:00:24 <elliott> Vorpal: nortti's computer hasn't the RAM to display Unicode.
14:00:24 <Vorpal> what the hell is [black box unicode char]20?
14:00:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus it is modern bloatware.
14:01:03 <nortti> elliott: actually fbcon just doesn't handle some chars that well
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14:03:21 <itidus21> but i haven't used forth so i can't really say that
14:03:58 <nortti> monqy facts use postfix notation?
14:04:52 <itidus21> the monqy facts language basically consists of building a list of monqy facts
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14:05:45 <Vorpal> hrrm, how do I pull the SMS off a nokia non-smart-phone (dumb phone?)
14:06:16 <nortti> or was it renamed ovi suite
14:06:59 <Vorpal> also all I have is bluetooth, might be able to find a mini-USB somewhere though
14:07:16 <Vorpal> I pulled the contacts over bluetooth easily on Linux
14:08:01 <Vorpal> also my desktop that dual boots to windows has 64-bit windows 7. This phone predates windows vista. Chances of working drivers for 64-bit? Slim.
14:08:26 <nortti> oh. google TM might require html5 support
14:09:12 <Vorpal> well, everyone has that nowdays
14:09:22 <itidus21> nortti: it's such a trivial thing though.. it's not a TM simulator
14:09:23 <Vorpal> unless it is a mobile browser
14:10:01 * john_metcalf wants one of those Touch Book things that run Risc OS.
14:10:12 <Vorpal> hm it is doing /something/
14:10:17 <Vorpal> lots of drivers installing
14:11:08 <Vorpal> and it seems to have nokia suite for 64-bit windows. Well that went better than I expected
14:11:46 <Vorpal> lol this phone has mini-usb but doesn't charge over mini-usb?
14:13:22 <elliott> Man, Sil's manual is fancy as heck.
14:13:36 <elliott> http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/
14:14:07 <john_metcalf> Yay! The spider that's been hiding inside the keyboard has finally emerged...
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14:14:31 <itidus21> that certainly looks appealing
14:14:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a new roguelike that is supposedly very good.
14:14:52 <Vorpal> elliott, is it is an angband fork?
14:15:18 <Vorpal> it mentions Angband on the website
14:15:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it completely replaces huge swathes of the mechanics, and heavily discourages the standard grinding and so on.
14:15:27 <elliott> Well, um, Angband is a thing in Tolkein.
14:15:33 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband
14:15:40 <elliott> "It is also one of very few games that stays true to the writings of Tolkien. Carefully researched, it dispenses with many generic fantasy tropes and reveals a different world. There are no wizards or priests, no platemail or magical scrolls. Instead, it is the Norse Saga inspired world that Tolkien imagined, with warriors clad in shining mail, singing songs of rage or sorrow as they slay. The magic of the world is subtle yet powerful: there are
14:15:40 <elliott> songs of fear and of binding, rather than spells of fireball and teleportation."
14:15:41 <Vorpal> but there is also angband the roguelike
14:15:54 <Vorpal> elliott, is it still ASCII graphics? Because that manual seems way too fancy for that
14:16:05 <elliott> There's screenshots right there on the page, you know.
14:16:18 <elliott> There's no tiles but I think he wants to make an existing Angband tileset or work or something.
14:16:30 <elliott> It's like Minecraft, you can forge your own artefacts!
14:17:00 <Vorpal> oh right, further down
14:18:10 <john_metcalf> Did anyone ever play Legend of the Red Dragon II: New World?
14:18:21 <Vorpal> what sort of game is that?
14:18:41 <john_metcalf> Multi-player BBS door game, slightly roguelike.
14:18:42 <elliott> Vorpal: (Also despite the windowed mode screenshots, it does in fact compile and run in a terminal on Linux.)
14:20:05 <elliott> It also has a nice tutorial thing.
14:20:13 <Vorpal> I would like to see a roguelike with isometric tiles. Avernum style. There is nothing in the concept of roguelike that says it has to be ASCII graphics.
14:20:30 <elliott> Vorpal: See Vulture's Eye.
14:20:37 <elliott> Or its predecessor, Falcon's Eye.
14:21:00 <elliott> Of course, like all tiles versions they're harder to play and less aesthetically pleasing than glyphs.
14:21:04 <Vorpal> oh was that the nethack based thing?
14:21:19 <itidus21> the text on the Sil page does sound like the words of a man possessed by his work
14:21:22 <Vorpal> iirc Falcon's Eye didn't work very well
14:21:33 <elliott> One of the cool thing about Sil I've heard is that you get exp from just seeng monsters, not only fighting them, and also for reaching new depths, etc. So it's feasible to play a pacifist diving game.
14:22:00 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the tiles were too big in Falcon's Eye. Avernum have really small ones. Not sure about the exact size but less than a tenth of Falcon's Eye's tiles I would say
14:22:05 <itidus21> elliott: yeah even i noticed that... on one of the screenshots.. thats mind blowing
14:23:21 <itidus21> its still not even close to the type of games i play but i can tell that it's cool
14:24:08 <itidus21> "Encountering another would be worth 26 experience. Killing one would be worth 80."
14:30:51 <fizzie> elliott: NetSurf is kind of why I changed 'modern' to 'mainstream'.
14:31:07 <elliott> fizzie: I didn't notice. :(
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14:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> "Secondly the code is extremely complicated, toady has a Ph.D in mathematics." -- redditor, on DF.
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15:42:02 <ion> http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-tracing/
15:45:28 <Gregor> nortti: Errrr, are you Martin Unzner?
15:45:48 <Gregor> Judging by the .fi in your domain, I'm gonna go with "no"
15:46:12 <Gregor> nortti: Is your version of C2BF up somewhere?
15:47:55 <elliott> Gregor: who;s martin unzner
15:48:09 <Gregor> elliott: Somebody who just emailed a patch to C2BF to me.
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16:19:09 <elliott> ais523: what is the UTF-8 encoding of that? thx
16:20:53 <Gregor> 11100010 10001000 10011001
16:20:55 <Gregor> You can hex it yourself.
16:21:41 <elliott> Gregor: is it really three bytes
16:22:12 <elliott> Gregor: are you lying to me
16:23:24 <Gregor> You should've been able to do that yourself ;)
16:23:51 <Gregor> Then split it by groups of 6 from the right
16:24:02 <Gregor> Then add UTF-8 prefixes
16:24:10 <Gregor> 11100010 10001000 10011001
16:25:56 <itidus21> 0b isn't a lot of work but i wonder if one day numbers will be more complicated
16:26:47 <Taneb> itidus21, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_base#Base_.E2.88.921.C2.B1i
16:26:50 <itidus21> like depending on the size of a number, changes it's default base encoding
16:27:20 <itidus21> i was thinking on a different tangent but i may as well clikc this link!
16:28:02 <nortti> Gregor: my c2bf is not available anywhere. I'd like to include his patch if he agrees to license it under ISC/MIT/BSD/CC0/WTFPL license
16:28:27 <Taneb> nortti, as a single license?
16:29:00 <nortti> one of those. my fork is under ISC
16:29:16 <Gregor> It's a small patch, but I'd rather see your version become accessible first ;)
16:29:51 <nortti> I'll try to get it to github
16:30:33 <Taneb> itidus21, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial_number_system ?
16:30:51 <itidus21> ill click that in a second.. but what i am proposing is truely fucked up
16:31:35 <itidus21> x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=4 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=7 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A x xxxxx xxxxx=B xx xxxxx xxxxx=12
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16:38:25 <itidus21> basically though, using a sequence of digits without specifying the base, the only rule being that a sequence of digits maps to only one numeric value
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16:39:24 <Taneb> itidus21, I'm going to say that is actually stupid.
16:39:46 <Taneb> You'd need to explicitly define a new sequence of digits for each number
16:42:57 <itidus21> x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=1111 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=21 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A
16:47:13 <Taneb> That pretty much rules out induction
16:47:23 <Taneb> And limits you to a finite number of numbers
16:47:30 <itidus21> well it doesn't absolutely have to be arbitrary
16:47:46 <Taneb> Yes it does, the only rule is that they're unique
16:48:53 <itidus21> prime numbers can be in hexadecimal!
16:48:59 <Taneb> If it was just silly, that would be okay
16:49:09 <Taneb> But if it's arbitrary, it's useless
16:50:35 <itidus21> where a number is a prime number in both decimal and hexadecimal... then its digits are to be interpreted as-- this aint gonna work
16:50:50 <itidus21> but, that would be an interesting set of numbers!
16:51:45 <itidus21> well i couldn't make an encoding rule out of that trivially
16:51:54 <itidus21> but it is in itself a fascinating sequence
16:52:05 <Taneb> Yeah, after 17 the next is 29
16:52:21 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => (a -> m a) -> m a
16:52:26 <lambdabot> forall w (m :: * -> *). (MonadWriter w m) => w -> m ()
16:52:50 <Taneb> > execWriter $ mfix (\x -> tell [1] >> return x)
16:53:14 <Taneb> How useless is that?
16:53:35 <elliott> you don't actually use the result
16:54:11 <Taneb> The result is _|_, I think
16:54:21 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
16:56:15 <Taneb> @src Writer [Int] mfix
16:56:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
16:56:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
16:56:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
16:56:37 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
16:58:45 <Taneb> @src mfix WriterT w m
16:58:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
16:58:48 <Taneb> mfix m = WriterT $ mfix $ \ ~(a, _) -> runWriterT (m a)
17:01:14 <itidus21> dang they sure do have a sequence for everything
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17:01:37 <Taneb> iota programs which do not halt
17:03:32 <Taneb> Is there a term for trees where the data is in the leaves rather than the branches?
17:03:49 <Taneb> data LeafTree a = Node a | Branch [LeafTree a]
17:04:15 <oerjan> that type is a Monad, btw
17:04:31 <Taneb> oerjan, it's Free [], I believe
17:04:51 <Taneb> Whereas a branch tree is Cofree []
17:05:26 <oerjan> lambdabot's Tree seems to have it in the branches
17:05:36 <Taneb> Yeah, it's Data.Tree
17:05:59 <oerjan> oh Cofree? so a comonad?
17:06:09 * oerjan doesn't actually know Cofree but guesses so
17:06:23 <Taneb> Data Cofree f a = a :< f (Cofree f a)
17:08:09 <oerjan> Cofree Maybe is non-empty lists?
17:08:30 <Taneb> Cofree Identity is infinite streams
17:08:51 <Vorpal> heh I read that as coffee first
17:09:09 <Taneb> data Zero a = Zero?
17:09:23 <Taneb> (I'd call it Proxy)
17:09:32 <Taneb> Cofree Zero is Identity
17:09:46 <oerjan> not Zero, that was wrong
17:10:21 <Taneb> I'd call that Void?
17:10:34 <oerjan> by zzo38's terminology, maybe i should try not to absorb that :P
17:10:56 <Taneb> Plus is Either, right?
17:11:44 <Taneb> that's right on the edge of my comprehension, I'm gonna brb and think about that
17:12:33 <elliott> Taneb: think of the cardinality
17:12:43 <elliott> how many functions A -> B are there, given the size of A is x and the size of B is why
17:12:50 <elliott> (consider A = Ordering, B = Bool, and so on)
17:19:22 <Taneb> But nobody answered my question :/
17:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Baptists do not fear getting their trousers soaked, apparently.
17:23:52 <Taneb> Apparently, there's a sale at IKEA
17:24:40 <elliott> Carl Full Immersion Baptism Baptismal Service Baptisms Baptise Baptists Baptize
17:25:16 <Taneb> Someone doesn't know how to use tags
17:26:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head
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17:54:10 <Taneb> Do you know if there is a name for tree structures where the data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches?
17:55:28 <calamari> isn't data usually stored in both?
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18:03:06 <Taneb> zzo38, do you know if there is a name for tree structures where data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches?
18:11:27 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know. But if it is binary tree, then data stored in leaves would be (Free ((->) Bool)) and data stored in branches would be (Cofree ((->) Bool)), I think.
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18:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head
18:13:34 <nooga_> elliott: is there a specific town in GB that brits make jokes about?
18:18:27 <oklopol> they call hexham the eso state and often make brainfuck jokes about it.
18:29:56 <john_metcalf> What's the best way to sum an array of floats? Maybe remove the smallest two and put their sum in the array until only one is left?
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18:32:19 <john_metcalf> nooga_: not really towns, just a few cities and regions.
18:32:53 <Taneb> A Finger Tree, I think, is an example of what I've been asking about
18:33:33 <Taneb> zzo38, leaves is Free []; branches is Cofree []
18:33:54 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, that is the multiple branches tree
18:34:16 <Taneb> I suppose the (->) Bool works as a binary one
18:41:04 <itidus21> i think i'm starting to actually learn something
18:41:48 <Taneb> What are you learning
18:42:11 <itidus21> ah.. i have thought up a really bizzare thing
18:42:44 <itidus21> numerous questions in my mind abound..
18:43:58 <itidus21> 1)does it already exist? 2)is it patented? a lot? i always dislike patents. 3)is it too similar to anything?
18:44:07 <itidus21> just the usual questions of direness
18:44:21 <nooga_> john_metcalf: can You give an example?
18:45:57 <itidus21> Taneb: ahh.. well i have done enough reading for today about random things.. my brain probably needs a rest
18:46:05 <itidus21> that is why i am thinking about making coffee
18:46:39 <itidus21> ok ok ill just tell you my idea
18:47:38 <john_metcalf> nooga_: Essex: easy girls, Norfolk: inbred, Somerset: cider drinking farmers, Wales: sheep shaggers
18:48:11 <zzo38> I also dislike patents a lot
18:48:19 <itidus21> to hook up a virtual animation studio to a FSA
18:48:28 <Taneb> nooga_, Glasgow: murderous murderers
18:49:02 <Taneb> john_metcalf, your stereotypes seem quite southern
18:49:02 <itidus21> i wonder if this is infact just a dumb version of mugen... it might be :P
18:50:34 <itidus21> 1)place a cel 2)remove a cel 3)draw on a cel(including drawing nothing) 4)move a cel 5)change the z-layer of a cel 6)photograph the scene
18:52:42 <itidus21> x,y <- cel position(cel #), x <- cel z-layer(cel #), x <- cel drawing(cel #), list of cels <- cels at point(x,y), list of cels <- cels in rect(x1,y1,x2,y2)
18:52:56 <itidus21> not sure about that list of cels bit
18:53:03 <itidus21> don't have a good reason for it
18:54:00 <itidus21> taking all these things and connecting them to a FSA and producing a series of "photographs"
18:58:59 <itidus21> place a cel at 50,50 -> draw frame 1 on cel 1 -> photograph -> move cel 1 to 55,50 -> draw frame 2 on cel 1 -> photograph
18:59:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: lots of bagpipes
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18:59:40 <john_metcalf> Phantom_Hoover: can't think of anything specific to Edinburgh.
19:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Only really on formal occasions or on the goddamn bagpipers.
19:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Edinburgh is only stereotypically Scottish when convenient.
19:00:17 <itidus21> -> place a cel at 55,50 -> draw frame hat on cel 2 -> photograph
19:00:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer
19:00:43 <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:10 <itidus21> -> move cel 1 to 60,50 -> move cel 2 to 60,50 -> photograph
19:01:18 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:21 <HackEgo> 846) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:49 <Taneb> `quote fight crime
19:01:53 <HackEgo> 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum.
19:02:35 <HackEgo> 498) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 846) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:04:34 <itidus21> so my system places and removes cels much like a TM writes on a tape, thus it is quite possibly turing complete except obviously theres been no details of what the FSA consists of
19:05:12 <itidus21> ive been addressing the individual cels..
19:05:23 <itidus21> but although they could have infinite addresses
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19:13:47 <itidus21> each cell of the "tape" would have 3 elements X x Y x Drawing, all set to 0 by default
19:15:49 <itidus21> the z-order could simply be the order of the cels on the tape
19:15:55 <zzo38> Glasgow? Did they invent GHC?
19:21:12 <itidus21> so for this picture, http://0.tqn.com/d/webclipart/1/5/Q/p/4/Chair-on-beach.jpg my tape encoding would be something like ...[blank][blank]^[background][umbrella][chair][blank][blank]...
19:22:09 <itidus21> and it would draw the cells from the tapehead rightwards until it got to the last non-blank
19:23:28 <itidus21> ;_; i'm insane and my parents only had 2 children. what a legacy
19:24:54 <itidus21> i guess i'm reinventing the display list rather awkwardly
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19:27:06 <itidus21> actually i think i'm onto something here
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19:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "His family members include his parents[...], and his sister" -- WP article on Christopher Paolini.
19:50:50 <oerjan> but not his brother, that black sheep.
19:50:59 <Taneb> I think the alternative would be more disturbing
19:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Christopher Paolini was birthed from the infinite flux of chaos.
19:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, you need to record it or something, it doesn't work as text.
19:52:29 <itidus21> you mean like, saying it in an unsettling voice on youtube?
19:53:09 <oerjan> also wear a darth vader suit
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19:54:06 <nortti> yay. I finaly got to see google TM using opera mobile
19:54:11 <itidus21> i don't have such a suit, but i could point yonder in a distinguished manner.
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20:04:47 <itidus21> i wonder if alan turing might make it onto epic rap battles of history after this google drawing attention to him
20:05:25 <itidus21> or maybe i would not pay much attention
20:05:34 <itidus21> i dont often pay attention to google celebrations
20:07:57 <elliott> ion: You know, Google(TM).
20:11:40 <Taneb> Internet ask me anything?
20:13:10 -!- const has changed nick to constant.
20:13:51 <ion> What’s special about it when using Opera Mobile?
20:15:12 <itidus21> he doesn't have any other way of viewing it
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20:16:48 <zzo38> One of the messages in my fortune file is this: **DO NOT REMOVE THIS MESSAGE FROM THIS FORTUNE FILE**
20:19:05 <zzo38> Use mine if you want to
20:19:35 <zzo38> echo fortune | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
20:19:54 <zzo38> In some systems you may need echo fortune | nc -q -1 zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
20:20:19 <zzo38> What does what do?
20:21:05 <zzo38> In the system I have needed it on, at least, it prevents the client from closing the connection.
20:21:17 <zzo38> So the connection will only be closed by the server.
20:28:28 <zzo38> You might or might not find on your system that it requires -q -1 and if it does, it will be required for all gopher and headerless HTTP
20:33:29 <zzo38> Does LLVM have any commands for making a self-modifying code?
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20:48:43 <nortti> why would you want to produce self-modifying code?
20:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't see why one would want to produce self-modifying code?
20:51:58 <kmc> there are many non-esoteric uses for self-modifying code as well
20:52:06 <kmc> the Linux kernel has like 12 kinds of self-modifying code
20:52:38 <nortti> for esolang yes but self modifying code in compiled c programs - no
20:52:52 <kmc> zzo38 did not say C, he said LLVM
20:53:14 <monqy> llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on"
20:53:48 <kmc> if you build a Linux kernel for SMP x86 and then boot it on a uniprocessor, it will rewrite the code to remove all the LOCK prefixes
20:54:15 <kmc> if you boot this kernel on a SMP system, and then hot-unplug all but one of the processors, it will do this dynamically (and will undo it if you hotplug another processor)
20:55:04 <zzo38> Actually LLVM has some features that C doesn't, but also lacks a few features which C has (such as unions).
20:55:17 <kmc> likewise it will rewrite the code at boot according to available CPU features (e.g. choosing between CPUID and MFENCE for serialization)
20:55:47 <kmc> and will rewrite certain instructions to be hypervisor calls when booted under paravirtualization
20:56:44 <kmc> Linux also uses SMC for tracepoints, verbosity setting, etc
20:57:43 <zzo38> Perhaps there should be some metadata to tell it to make a global variable belong to an instruction, and can be told read/write/both lock on that ownership
20:58:46 <zzo38> Or no locks if you want no locks on the ownership
21:00:54 <elliott> <monqy> llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on"
21:00:58 <elliott> monqy: no, llvm is better than c
21:01:01 <elliott> monqy: haven't you even LISTENED to zzo38
21:01:14 <elliott> kmc: that LOCK thing is cool
21:01:17 <elliott> kmc: @ will do stuff like that!
21:01:40 <zzo38> These metadata to make a global variable belong to an instruction would probably be ignored on a Harvard architecture though, unless it has ways to deal with it anyways
21:01:43 <monqy> elliott: c improves when compiled, clearly
21:02:04 <zzo38> So this would be one kind of self-modifying code
21:04:10 <zzo38> The instruction that the global variable belongs to, might potentially run faster than it otherwise would, and possibly make the executable a few bytes smaller
21:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how TV Tropes is steadily lobotomising itself by purging any examples for anything even vaguely controversial.
21:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The most obvious one that comes to mind is that all Mary Sue-related tropes have had their examples completely removed.
21:08:59 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: ... So, what, they're trying to be 'legit' or something?
21:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it wasn't particularly /good/ content, and a lot of it was an argumentative mess, but there's a certain pleasure in reading it.
21:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Still waiting for them to introduce notability criteria.
21:09:37 <zzo38> I think LLVM now even supports the feature of Pascal to specify the valid range of a variable
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21:11:28 <kmc> what would it mean for a variable to belong to an instruction?
21:12:18 <zzo38> kmc: It means the value of the variable is a literal operand to that instruction.
21:12:42 <zzo38> (That is, if the instruction is reading the variable)
21:12:44 <kmc> ah, Linux has (or had) that too
21:13:10 <kmc> the API is like a global variable but (on some platforms) the variable reads are immediate loads, and the variable writes modify that code
21:13:46 <Lumpio-> Isn't TVTropes ran mostly by Americans?
21:13:48 <zzo38> Yes that is what I mean
21:13:56 <Lumpio-> It isn't really a big surprise they're trying to get rid of "controversy"
21:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I also loved it when they changed Crowning Moment of Awesome to... Moment of Awesome.
21:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, I'm going to assume you're kidding because my hate pool is running low.
21:14:49 <kmc> Lumpio-: that's a ridiculous comparison
21:15:14 <Lumpio-> Showing a nipple is worse than murder.
21:15:28 <kmc> by "they" you mean all 300 million Americans, yes?
21:15:48 <Lumpio-> I mean the culture they've created (and by extension all the cultures negatively affected by it)
21:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, oh, they also purged more or less every page they decided was 'porn'.
21:16:45 <kmc> Lumpio-: who's censoring music CDs?
21:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> This extended to Lolita until saner minds shouted them down.
21:17:00 <Lumpio-> If something has sexual content in it it's just "porn". Of no value to any decent gentleman.
21:17:16 <Lumpio-> Having a work of fiction with both sexual content *and* a good, intriguing story is unheard of over there.
21:17:22 <kmc> no it's not
21:17:30 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: The only censorship in music CDs is from Walmart refusing to sell uncensored music.
21:17:48 <Lumpio-> And how big is wal-mart again?
21:17:57 <kmc> right, a private company puts a warning sticker on a CD (and still sells it) and then another private company refuses to sell that CD in their stores
21:17:59 <Lumpio-> And somehow I doubt they're the only ones.
21:18:02 <kmc> and other companies do sell it
21:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, I'm guessing that you have never, say, heard of Game of Thrones?
21:18:08 <kmc> "American retailer Best Buy only carries uncensored albums in their physical stores"
21:18:10 <Lumpio-> The warning sticker is bad enough
21:18:11 <kmc> *uncensored*
21:18:23 <Lumpio-> The fact that you must label them as "uncensored" is ridiculous
21:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait, sorry, in that scene with all the topless whores some of them had one breast covered up.
21:19:01 <kmc> i agree that the stickers are silly but to call them "censorship" is a bit much
21:19:03 <pikhq_> If it were a company, it'd be one of the world's largest economies...
21:19:11 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: So it has clearly visible unambiguous nipples?
21:19:24 <pikhq_> Anyways: as far as I know, Walmart's the only company that actually refuses uncensored music.
21:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly visible nipples are an "at least once an episode" thing.
21:19:45 <Lumpio-> It must be a pioneering work then
21:19:49 <kmc> Lumpio-: the thing is, I would have agreed with you if you just said "American attitudes towards sex and profanity are ridiculous"
21:20:00 <kmc> but you came on way too strong and said ridiculous things yourself
21:20:05 <kmc> and basically destroyed your credibility
21:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe you should actually learn about things before going on crusades.
21:20:09 <kmc> AMERIKKKA AM I RITE
21:20:26 <kmc> NAZIMERIKKKOMMUNISTA
21:20:37 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: Did the crusaders really "learn" or "think" before going on theirs? No.
21:20:59 <kmc> hooray for trolls
21:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, I'm not sure he is a troll, although that would be better.
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21:21:59 <kmc> also even if TVTropes is run by Americans, i highly doubt it's run by the segment of American society which has a huge stick up its ass about sex and profanity
21:22:11 <kmc> which isn't really that many of us
21:22:17 <kmc> they are just loud and try to impose their views on everyone else
21:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH initially it was because Google pulled their ads from the site because of some of the more risque content *cough*fetishfuel*cough* but when they started deleting stuff like Lolita and Naughty Tentacles it went well beyond reasonable.
21:24:26 <kmc> "We no longer collect examples of fetish fuel. We did so for long enough to establish that literally everything is someone's fetish fuel, and that some few individuals are quite willing to go on about theirs at length. The topic seems to want to get out of Family Friendly territory too easily for TV Tropes, so we spun off another wiki for it: Fetish Fuel Wiki."
21:24:29 <zzo38> It is because of Google?
21:24:47 <kmc> that seems pretty reasonable
21:24:54 <Lumpio-> So who decides what's "fetish fuel" or not
21:25:04 <kmc> dude it was a specific article
21:25:05 <zzo38> Perhaps everything is fetish fuel
21:25:13 <Lumpio-> If one of the mods had a raging foot fetish would any articles involving feet be banned?
21:25:22 <kmc> you completely misunderstand
21:25:24 <kmc> also you're an idiot
21:25:27 <kmc> good luck everyone
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21:25:33 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No, but any articles involving hand would be banned.
21:25:44 <monqy> is parting a "thing" now
21:25:54 <monqy> i want to be cool too !!
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21:29:28 <Taneb> If I leave the channel, it'll stop being cool
21:29:41 <zzo38> Do you like to stop being cool, or not?
21:31:56 <Taneb> That's how it works
21:32:08 <Taneb> zzo38, I don't really care. Fate conspires to keep me uncool
21:32:15 <Taneb> I'm destiny's anti-hipster
21:32:29 <Taneb> I only do things after they're cool
21:39:55 <nortti> I know. I have to leave this channel for few weeks
21:40:27 <nortti> nortti-, my bouncer will still be here thoug
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21:54:34 <Taneb> He'll stop anyone without an invite coming in
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22:15:16 <Taneb> https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:bouncer&oq=define:bouncer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.3...6222.6222.1.6424.1.1.0.0.0.0.52.52.1.1.0...0.0.QGwSZnmncyE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=21405353d8475aae&biw=1366&bih=682
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22:36:56 <ais523> wow does Wine have a lot of dependencies
22:37:01 <ais523> I suppose in retrospect that wasn't really surprising
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22:54:58 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/windows_evolution.jpeg
22:56:05 <itidus21> i don't need to speak deutsche to know what that troll is thinking
22:56:52 <itidus21> humm... there seems to be a pattern
22:57:05 <itidus21> first MS releases a gut Windows, then a scheisse
22:57:13 <quintopia> i dont think win95 was particularly shit
22:57:44 <itidus21> yeah theres some artistic license taken
22:59:04 <Gregor> Windows 2K was never touted as a consumer OS.
22:59:17 <Gregor> If you're going to complain that they left it out, they also left out NT 3 and 4.
22:59:32 <Gregor> Is that really so vital?
22:59:48 <Gregor> Well, it's not. I have other things to do.
23:00:30 <itidus21> im glad to hear that. everyone knows win 8 will be crap.
23:01:00 <zzo38> Who won the war of 1812?
23:01:15 <itidus21> the best possible outcome would be that windows vs linux is like encarta vs wikipedia
23:02:24 <itidus21> yeah it was a commercial encyclopedia.. apparently MS bought some encyclopedias and stuck them together on a cd
23:02:59 <Gregor> It was semipopular before Wikipedia.
23:07:17 <itidus21> hmm.. i can go a day without producing any more cynicism
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