←2012-06-23 2012-06-24 2012-06-25→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:22:44 <zzo38> Is there a command in MinGW to cut off all lines of stderr after a specified line number?
00:30:33 <zzo38> Is anyone going to make MMIX hardware?
00:33:04 <zzo38> The only thing I want to omit is the rN register; perhaps its meaning can be changed to something else (I think there was a suggestion once about this)
00:34:16 <zzo38> GCC can already compile into MMIX, they should also make LLVM to compile into MMIX, and also LLVM compile into Glulx as well
00:39:05 <zzo38> If LLVM compiles to Glulx, we could make up a LLVM file which implements glk.h with inline assembly language and inlining and so on
00:40:27 <nortti-> why do you want to omit rN register?
00:42:48 <zzo38> The rN register does nothing useful.
00:43:27 <nortti-> oh. it confused it with rM
00:46:21 <nortti-> goimg to sleep -->
00:46:36 <zzo38> rM should be included. However, rN should be omitted or modified to mean something else.
00:49:04 <nortti-> PRNG?
00:49:59 <zzo38> No.
00:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/u1ptn/modern_computers_are_supposed_to_be_von_neumann/
00:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure this person knows quite what 'equivalent' means.
00:57:01 <zzo38> Is there a DVI format of Fascicle 1 MMIX? The PDF renders badly.
00:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm astonished you have a PDF renderer.
01:03:10 <zzo38> I cannot find any of DVI files for those things, or any TeX source files either
01:04:26 <zzo38> (The PDFs also print badly unless you have the same printer as whoever made the PDF and there are no rounding errors.)
01:25:36 <zzo38> Synthesizer for ITMCK works
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03:17:18 <Sgeo> Io seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic
03:18:25 <coppro> Sgeo: get into #nomic
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04:13:45 <coppro> am I a bad person?
04:14:01 <coppro> anyOf fs c = any ($ c) fs
04:15:50 <kmc> well using anyOf in a higher order context is nicer than using (any . flip ($)) or whatever
04:16:14 <kmc> but if you're applying the arguments on-site, i think any ($ c) fs is better
04:16:45 <coppro> kmc: yeah, I am
04:16:49 <coppro> but I was just generalizing there
04:17:50 <kmc> ?
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04:21:28 <coppro> isFoo c = any ($ c) [isA, isB, isC]
04:23:17 <copumpkin> :t or . sequence
04:23:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Bool' against inferred type `[a]'
04:23:19 <lambdabot> Expected type: [[a]] -> [Bool]
04:23:19 <lambdabot> Inferred type: [[a]] -> [[a]]
04:23:27 <kmc> oh, that seems reasonable
04:23:29 <copumpkin> :t (or .) . sequence
04:23:30 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *). (Functor f, Monad f) => [f Bool] -> f Bool
04:23:55 <kmc> :t (Prelude.or Prelude..) Prelude.. Prelude.sequence
04:23:56 <lambdabot> forall a. [a -> Bool] -> a -> Bool
04:24:40 <copumpkin> :t or .: sequence
04:24:42 <lambdabot> forall (g :: * -> *). (Monad g, Functor g) => [g Bool] -> g Bool
04:24:47 <copumpkin> dammit, he even generalized .:
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04:29:26 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'd be more surprised if he hadn't, since (.:) = (.) . (.)
04:34:38 <zzo38> My .: is (.:) :: (Category cat, Functor f) => cat b c -> f (cat a b) -> f (cat a c);
04:36:54 <shachaf> class Nyan cat where (=^..^=) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
04:38:05 <kmc> :3
04:38:08 <olsner> class Nyan cat where (=^..^=) :: cat cat cat -> cat cat cat -> cat cat cat
04:39:40 <kmc> yes i'm sure GHC 7.6 will support equirecursive infinite kinds
04:39:55 <shachaf> kmc: What?
04:40:52 <kmc> well, what's the kind of 'cat' in that typeclass?
04:41:38 <shachaf> Oh, you didn't mean that GHC 7.6 will actually support.
04:41:55 <shachaf> s/.$/ it./
04:42:07 <kmc> i was using sarcasm
04:42:30 <kmc> it does seem to be the direction they're going in
04:42:56 <kmc> equirecursive infinite typekind class family polymorphism
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04:50:58 <zzo38> What does "equirecursive infinite typekind class family polymorphism" means?
04:51:34 <zzo38> Yesterday I was looking at Wikipedia about comma category now I can understand comma category better
04:51:37 <olsner> I think it means that cat cat cat can be a valid type
04:51:40 <kmc> it means nothing zzo38
04:51:44 <kmc> it is a joke
04:51:54 <kmc> add this to your training set on jokes
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04:52:06 <kmc> olsner: equirecursive infinite kinds would do that
04:52:39 <kmc> cat :: μk. k -> k -> *
04:53:06 <kmc> equirecursive means that you don't need explicit wrapping/unwrapping (as opposed to isorecursive)
04:54:26 <olsner> so isorecursive would be using a newtype to make infinite types?
04:54:31 <copumpkin> zzo38: have you come across slice categories already?
04:54:38 <kmc> olsner: yeah, at type level
04:54:42 <kmc> i'm not sure what it would be at kind level
04:54:50 <olsner> newkinds?
04:56:15 <zzo38> copumpkin: They are mentioned in the same article
04:56:25 <copumpkin> yeah, slice category is a specific instance of comma
04:56:30 <zzo38> Yes
04:56:33 <copumpkin> being more concrete, it might be more obvious though
04:59:39 <zzo38> With Ibtlfmm, we would have "kind" and "data kind" declarations (the first for kind synonyms, the second for enumerating the types belonging to it and how many parameters they are required to take; all the parameters are kinds, and there is only one "kind of kinds")
05:02:28 <zzo38> So you can write: kind Constraint = &; kind Nat = +; kind Type = *; kind Module = @; and so on, including synonyms for more complicated kinds, as well as data kinds
05:03:43 <zzo38> I have thought about some other categories, such as sum of categories and product of categories. I think, the sum or product of thin categories is thin, the sum or product of discrete categories is discrete, etc. Some categories may be the sum and/or product of other categories.
05:04:53 <zzo38> And then it would seem you can even combine monads and comonads from the categories you can making a sum or product of
05:14:52 <zzo38> There is then the category of no objects being the identity for the sum, and the discrete category of a single object for the identity for product.
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05:17:01 <zzo38> copumpkin: Do you know anything of these kind of sum and product of categories?
05:17:28 <copumpkin> there's definitely product categories
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05:17:41 <copumpkin> and I think you can do a coproduct of categories too, but it's a bit more involved
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05:18:08 <copumpkin> but the category of small categories definitely has all products
05:19:28 <copumpkin> and probably all coproducts :)
05:20:29 <zzo38> What I mean by these sum and product of categories is: Sum means, the objects are (C, X) where C is one of its term categories and X is an object of C, and the morphisms are (C, f) where f is a morphism of C, so if f:X->Y then (C,f):(C,X)->(C,Y). Product means, objects are (C, D, ...) where C, D, ... are its factor categories and the morphisms are the morphism one from each factor category.
05:22:34 <zzo38> Is this OK?
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05:24:15 <copumpkin> hmm, that's probably right
05:24:27 <copumpkin> just look at products and coproducts in the category of small categories
05:24:30 <copumpkin> they work out
05:24:44 <copumpkin> coproducts are pretty easy, actually, as far as I can tell
05:25:16 <zzo38> Coproducts?
05:25:21 <copumpkin> sums
05:25:29 <copumpkin> coproduct is the more conventional term
05:25:42 <zzo38> OK, well I did think and write about both sum and product of categories
05:25:59 <copumpkin> well, you know about products and coproducts within categories?
05:26:22 <zzo38> Yes
05:26:33 <zzo38> I think so
05:26:35 <copumpkin> then work out if your constructions fit the descriptions :)
05:26:39 <copumpkin> but I think they do
05:26:52 <copumpkin> to have a proper sum category
05:27:17 <copumpkin> it contains all the objects and all the morphisms from the two "addends"
05:27:26 <copumpkin> and then you have injection functors from the two addends
05:27:28 <zzo38> Yes, that is how I mean
05:27:31 <copumpkin> and a few diagrams commute
05:27:44 <zzo38> And yes then you also have a functor from the addend to the sum
05:27:54 <copumpkin> yep
05:28:03 <copumpkin> and then a universal functor
05:28:07 <copumpkin> so it should work
05:29:41 <zzo38> I think they even form a semiring?
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05:33:20 <zzo38> For multiplication you can make up a discrete category from any natural number so that the sum of a category with itself is like the product of that category with the discrete category with two objects.
05:34:30 <zzo38> Isn't it?
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05:55:36 <zzo38> Can exponent category now be made? I can think of something, but maybe won't work since the exponent may not always be discrete.
05:58:46 <copumpkin> since Cat is a CCC, it should exist
05:58:53 <copumpkin> I haven't thought about what it would mean though
05:59:36 <copumpkin> you might want to ask in ##categorytheory
06:00:27 <copumpkin> I need to go to sleep :)
06:01:29 <zzo38> I have thought a little bit about it
06:01:54 <zzo38> So I think I know what it means at least if the exponent is discrete
06:02:33 <zzo38> I try to think of it more too; maybe I will manage to think of it
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07:13:45 <zzo38> How many people in here know some things about category theory? How many people do not know?
07:13:56 <oerjan> i know some things
07:14:55 <zzo38> Before you joined to this channel, I have discussed sum and product of categories, and also thinking about power/exponent of categories.
07:18:15 <zzo38> Any monads and comonads in the categories the sum/product is made from, can also be combined to make monads/comonads in the sum/product as well, I think
07:18:21 <oerjan> those things are usually defined _in_ categories afaik, which means that if you want to do them _of_ categories you want to look at Cat, the category of categories
07:19:58 <zzo38> Yes I do mean of categories. And I have written above about how to do; you may review the logs if you want to
07:21:52 <oerjan> what i mean is that your definitions are likely to be equivalent to the usual definitions as applied to Cat
07:22:03 <zzo38> OK
07:23:38 * pikhq_ mutters about being vaguely near a wildfire
07:23:40 <oklopol> i know absolutely nothing
07:24:10 <zzo38> Using these sum and product I would also think, the numbers are being like the discrete categories with that many objects
07:24:11 <pikhq_> I don't know if the fire has anything to do with it, but respiration is irritated!
07:24:51 <oerjan> for example, if you have a functor F from A to C and a functor G from B to C, then there should be a unique functor H from A+B to C such that F and G are the compositions of H with the embeddings
07:25:50 <oerjan> and dually for products
07:26:05 <oklopol> is that the universal property?
07:26:06 <zzo38> Yes, I believe you, it makes sense
07:26:09 <oerjan> oklopol: yes
07:26:36 <oklopol> category theory is so awesome
07:26:58 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes
07:27:06 <oklopol> oklopol: yes
07:27:11 <zzo38> Yes
07:28:05 <oerjan> while the power/exponent should be defined if Cat is a cartesian closed category, by another universal property
07:28:43 <zzo38> Do you get the property I have described if the exponent is discrete?
07:29:00 <oerjan> um i didn't read what you said before
07:29:15 <oklopol> i was gonna check what the UP for power is but ended up reading about sheaves and taking a break now. those things are crazy.
07:29:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_closed_category says it is
07:30:13 <zzo38> What I have described is that, if C is to the power of a discrete category having two objects, it will be like a product of C with C, and so on
07:30:15 <oerjan> ^ Y is defined as the right adjoint functor of x Y
07:30:40 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds reasonable
07:31:58 <oerjan> Hom(X x 2, Z) ~= Hom(X, Z^2)
07:32:30 <oerjan> X x 2 ought to be ~ X + X
07:33:11 <zzo38> I have described above that the sum of C with C, is like the product of C with a discrete category having 2 objects.
07:33:19 <oerjan> so then you get Hom(X + X, Z) ~= Hom(X, Z x Z), which looks like it might follow from the universal properties
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07:35:56 <oerjan> zzo38: i think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_closed_category#Equational_theory may be relevant
07:36:17 <zzo38> OK
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07:44:52 <zzo38> I believe that does show the property I described to be the case.
07:46:23 <zzo38> What of monads and comonads on the exponent category then?
07:46:47 <zzo38> What is a category called if all isomorphisms are endomorphisms?
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07:52:31 <zzo38> Does it have a name?
07:56:16 <oerjan> huh
07:57:40 <oerjan> zzo38: skeletal category http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_(category_theory)
08:01:32 <zzo38> OK
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08:25:14 <zzo38> What values of Cwt should I use for ITMCK?
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08:26:57 <zzo38> Perhaps 0x7000 is OK since OpenMPT Wiki does not list any other trackers as using that, and the actual version number can be determined by the name of the first instrument
08:28:16 <zzo38> You can, however, use the -w command-line switch or the #TRACKER-VERSION command in the input file to override the Cwt value to be whatever you want.
08:30:03 <zzo38> But if you have other suggestions you can tell me
08:33:45 <zzo38> I have added the information to the wiki http://wiki.openmpt.org/Development:_Formats/IT as instructed.
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09:01:29 <Taneb> Hello!
09:04:16 <Taneb> Some guy on the TV is saying "Where in the bible does it say we have to pay tax?"
09:04:29 <Taneb> I want to punch him in the face and say Matthew 22:21
09:05:46 <Sgeo> Is that the one that's Render Caesar's unto Caesar's?
09:05:51 <Taneb> Yeah
09:05:58 <Sgeo> Because that's easy to twist into meaning absolutely nothing whatsoever.
09:06:04 <Taneb> True
09:06:50 <Gregor> Very much like the rest of the Bible.
09:07:17 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Caesar was a god, so of course you had to pay tax to him.
09:07:30 <pikhq_> Obama is Satan, so you shouldn't pay taxes to *him*.
09:08:03 <Taneb> How about David Cameron?
09:08:59 <Taneb> Leviticus 19:27
09:09:03 <Taneb> Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
09:09:12 <pikhq_> Yup, he is a servant of Satan.
09:09:20 <kmc> wait you're saying there are right wing religious extremists outside the USA?
09:09:28 <kmc> this is highly at odds with what I have read on the Internet
09:09:33 <Taneb> Nah, just people who want to avoid taxes
09:09:43 <Taneb> brb
09:10:02 <pikhq_> kmc: There *are*, they just seem to have somewhat less influence.
09:10:06 <pikhq_> Crazy is a human universal.
09:10:19 <kmc> there are many places where they have more influence
09:10:22 <pikhq_> True.
09:10:34 <pikhq_> There are many places where the crazies actually run the place.
09:11:14 <kmc> the thing about right-wing religious extremists in the USA is, you know which party they're going to vote for
09:11:19 <kmc> so that party doesn't actually have to give them anything
09:11:28 <pikhq_> Maybe the occasional bone.
09:11:40 <kmc> they bluster about social issues to get out the vote
09:11:57 <kmc> and some proportion of the party is composed of said extremists, and some of those people get elected
09:12:01 <kmc> but not that many really
09:13:26 <pikhq_> Not that the people they vote for are any *better*...
09:13:40 <pikhq_> The badness is just of a completely different sort.
09:13:44 <kmc> yeah
09:14:16 <kmc> well i don't know
09:14:50 <kmc> i have a slight preference for a corrupt corporatist state over a theocracy
09:14:58 <kmc> neither is good
09:15:02 <pikhq_> Well, yes.
09:15:12 <kmc> this preference reflects my various forms of privilege
09:15:24 <pikhq_> Both are very, very low on my preference ranking, but corrupt corporatist state > theocracy.
09:15:33 <Taneb> Back
09:16:27 <pikhq_> But, then, in a theocracy I'm liable to be dead.
09:16:30 <Taneb> The UK is technically sort-of a theocracy
09:16:39 <Taneb> But nobody actually cares
09:16:43 <kmc> how so?
09:16:53 <Taneb> The head of state is directly appointed by good
09:16:56 <Taneb> *God
09:17:02 <Taneb> And is the head of the Church of England
09:17:27 <pikhq_> kmc: Rule by divine right, the monarch is the head of the church, members of the church are *entitled* to positions in the legislature...
09:17:46 <kmc> yeah that last bit is dodgy as hell
09:18:18 <Taneb> The house of lords doesn't have any real power
09:18:56 <pikhq_> *any more
09:19:02 <Taneb> Yeah
09:19:15 <pikhq_> Up until quite recently, they were your supreme court as well.
09:19:27 <Taneb> Really? Didn't know that
09:19:41 <pikhq_> Yeah, the House of Lords was the court of last resort up until, what, 2008?
09:20:17 <pikhq_> Ah, 2009.
09:22:30 <pikhq_> Hmm. I suspect that that's where the Senate's role of trying impeachments comes from...
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09:24:15 <pikhq_> (the US Congress was designed with the *intent* of the House of Representatives being somewhat analogous to the House of Commons, and the Senate somewhat analogous to the House of Lords)
09:24:29 <Taneb> How did that end up?
09:24:59 <pikhq_> Probably the last blow in the setup was the establishment of direct election of Senators.
09:26:26 <pikhq_> (the original setup was that each state appointed Senators in a manner they saw fit, with convention being that the governor of the state would appoint them)
09:29:17 <kmc> i thought they were mainly elected by state legislatures
09:29:56 <kmc> "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof"
09:30:04 <pikhq_> Ah, perhaps I misremembered.
09:33:27 <pikhq_> Indeed I did.
09:34:15 <kmc> amusingly enough, the current non-proportional structure of the Senate would be unconstitutional if it weren't explicitly in the Constitution
09:34:32 <kmc> the supreme court has ruled that the 14th Amendment forbids states and cities from having similar bodies
09:35:21 <kmc> also to change the composition of the Senate, you would arguably need *two* constitutional amendments
09:36:00 <kmc> because Article V (the article on amendments) explicitly forbids that change
09:36:29 <pikhq_> How very nomic.
09:37:07 <pikhq_> In practice, I suspect they'd somehow figure out a way to get that deemed "interstate commerce" so it could be a regular bill.
09:37:22 <kmc> haha
09:37:26 <kmc> no, i don't think that would fly
09:38:24 <pikhq_> But if a butterfly flapping its wings can cause rain in China, then surely the composition of the Senate effects interstate commerce, so therefore they have the power to regulate it.
09:38:54 <pikhq_> On a more serious note, yeaaah that clause would have to be a *lot* more abused than it is now for something like that to fly.
09:39:12 <kmc> i mean, that clause is all about the division of powers between state and federal legislatures
09:40:01 <kmc> what also sucks is that the Senate's rules of procedure have nearly as much influence on how law is made as the Constitution
09:40:20 <pikhq_> Perhaps more.
09:40:43 <pikhq_> The infamous 'fillibuster' rules have a rather dramatic effect.
09:40:58 <kmc> yeah
09:41:23 <kmc> that's a recent thing too
09:41:32 <kmc> i mean aiui filibuster was used pretty rarely before like 2006
09:41:38 <kmc> now it is the default and every bill needs 60 votes to pass
09:43:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cloture_Voting,_United_States_Senate,_1947_to_2008.svg
09:45:09 <pikhq_> And that's just the number of times the Senate actually attempted to stop a filibuster.
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09:47:59 <kmc> well, many of them are preemptive
09:48:32 <kmc> actual filibusters are still rare, the threat is just baked into how the body operates
09:49:04 <kmc> which is part of the problem — people would be less eager if they had to personally go up and talk for 15 hours!
09:51:43 <kmc> and i would hope that a filibuster would make the filibustering party look like childish obstructionists
09:52:05 <kmc> but i think a lot of the blame for problems in Washington gets accounted in a nonpartisan way
09:52:12 <kmc> Congress's approval ratings are far lower than either party
09:56:04 <pikhq_> Rather amazingly so.
09:56:41 <pikhq_> What was it, like 8% approval?
09:58:03 <kmc> something like that
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10:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is /r/conspiracy championing the cause of *Syria*?
10:17:41 <kmc> that's what they want you to think
10:17:57 <pikhq_> /r/conspiracy is actually a KGB conspiracy.
10:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So... /r/conspiracy is in fact run by the conspiracy?
10:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
10:18:20 <kmc> let me guess, the US and Israel dislike Syria, therefore Syria must be good
10:18:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You must admit it's an appropriate name.
10:18:27 <pikhq_> (this mirrors well-documented KGB conspiracies surrounding the JFK shooting)
10:18:43 <pikhq_> (... the KGB spread conspiracy theories about it. I shit you not.)
10:18:49 <Patashu> "<kmc> let me guess, the US and Israel dislike Syria, therefore Syria must be good" sounds like solid logic to me
10:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Makes sense.
10:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, looks like it.
10:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "Liveleak is a propaganda hub."
10:19:54 <kmc> goatse is a propaganda hub
10:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Precisely the reason I dont believe anything. Ever. There may not even be a syria for all I know
10:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "
10:21:39 <Patashu> lol
10:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> um
10:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ok
10:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> in another thread
10:22:13 <Phantom_Hoover> someone has just said they wouldn't eat mule meat
10:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's genetically modified
10:22:46 <kmc> mule meat contains chemicals!
10:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "If the alternative media on the Internet continues to grow and expose the secret working of the grand deceivers, i.e. the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, the masses will find out the King is actually naked and the kings new clothes shtick was all a big con."
10:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> If we hit that conspiracy bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
10:24:05 <Patashu> is that a quote
10:24:13 <kmc> zardoz speaks to you, his chosen ones
10:24:16 <shachaf> kmc: Ew, chemicals.
10:24:37 <kmc> THE GUN IS GOOD
10:24:38 <shachaf> When I disposed of my television years ago, the last of my chemicals had to go with it.
10:24:43 <kmc> THE PENIS IS EVIL
10:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, the quoted bit is.
10:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/vimgh/if_the_alternative_media_on_the_internet/
10:25:12 * shachaf now leads a 100% natural, chemical-free life.
10:25:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "New World Order Blueprint Leaked"
10:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So what, is this part of a conspiracy to give away NWO trade secrets?
10:26:41 <kmc> i'm afraid this is going to devolve into trolling by proxy
10:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/vhzj0/a_friend_is_going_to_let_me_look_through_his/
10:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god
10:27:33 <shachaf> kmc: My friend said trolling by proxy is good because it can inject outside opinions into echo chambers which don't usually get such opinions.
10:27:43 <shachaf> I don't really agree with him, but do you have any counterarguments to that?
10:27:54 <kmc> -_-
10:28:10 <Patashu> what is 'trolling by proxy'
10:34:00 <kmc> "hi, my friend says Haskell gives you herpes and aids, i think this is wrong but pls provide a detailed rebuttal"
10:34:23 <kmc> produces similar results to someone coming in and saying haskell gives you herpaids
10:34:37 <kmc> worse, in that you can't make it go away by kickbanning someone
10:34:45 <Patashu> oh, I see
10:34:48 <Patashu> very clever
10:35:05 <kmc> even when nobody in the channel intends to troll, the result is the same as trolling
10:35:08 <shachaf> Patashu: It's far from the state of the art in trolling techniques.
10:35:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Ingenius in its subtlety.
10:35:14 <kmc> happens a lot when you're discussing Other People who are Wrong On The Internet
10:35:16 <Patashu> well I am not very good at trolling
10:35:17 <kmc> shachaf: what's the state of the art?
10:35:18 <Patashu> so I'm easily impressed
10:35:27 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think that's public information.
10:35:40 <kmc> is it u
10:35:45 <shachaf> No. :-(
10:35:48 <shachaf> kmc: But in this case there's still responsibility: The "friend" said something inflammatory.
10:35:52 <kmc> poorchaf
10:36:05 <shachaf> The ultimate trolling probably arises on its own, like a sort of meme.
10:36:07 <kmc> shachaf: well, in less hyperbolic cases, the friend is perhaps just ignorant
10:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, but in this case I'm not quoting them as things I want treated seriously and debunked, I'm quoting them because I and presumably everyone else finds them risible.
10:36:17 <shachaf> Things like "0.999... = 1?!", maybe.
10:36:29 <shachaf> Just think of the discussions that generates, even when everyone means well.
10:36:49 <shachaf> I guess it's not exactly a "technique".
10:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So basically politics and religion are the ultimate trolling technique?
10:37:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: There are a lot of trolls in politics and religion.
10:37:41 <shachaf> But some topics, yes.
10:38:16 <shachaf> kmc: did u accuse me of being cheater :'(
10:38:36 <kmc> is cheater the state of the art in trolling
10:38:47 <shachaf> I don't think so.
10:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Decidedly not.
10:38:51 <kmc> well in that he can troll elliott and Phantom_Hoover without saying anything at all
10:38:52 <shachaf> He got banned from multiple channels.
10:39:05 <kmc> and cause them to abuse third parties
10:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Still bitter about that?
10:39:44 <shachaf> Wait, which "that" is that?
10:39:45 <kmc> not bitter, just amused and confused
10:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Take it up with ais if you think the ban was unjustified.
10:40:12 <kmc> i'm not saying he shouldn't be bant
10:40:17 <shachaf> Did he get banned in here?
10:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
10:40:24 <kmc> i just think it's insane how much abuse I got for daring to say "hi" to him
10:40:33 <kmc> it's the sort of thing you see in extremely brainwashed religious societies
10:40:41 <kmc> the unclean one must be shunned
10:40:46 <shachaf> cheater: hi
10:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, I do believe you're trying to troll me.
10:41:14 <kmc> like, i can understand that he doesn't get along with this channel, but apparently the fact that I can get along with him in any context at all makes me a horrible human being
10:41:30 <kmc> so yeah
10:41:36 <kmc> i think anyone who can produce that kind of response
10:41:39 <kmc> is a pretty advanced troll
10:42:28 <shachaf> kmc gets along with everyone*
10:42:42 <kmc> zero or more copies of everyone
10:45:37 <Patashu> who is cheater
10:45:40 <Patashu> I feel I am missing out on something
10:45:48 <kmc> join #codez
10:46:06 <kmc> it's the channel he set up to talk to the people from #esoteric, #haskell-blah, and ##electronics who will still put up with him
10:46:24 <shachaf> Founder: cheater
10:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Longrunning troll who survived largely because for most of his time on the channel there were 3 ops none of whom actually used their powers.
10:49:18 <shachaf> So I'm in #codez but I still have cheater on /ignore
10:49:56 <shachaf> I wonder what that'll do.
10:50:00 <shachaf> Maybe he'll ban me.
10:54:55 <kmc> i don't believe in /ignore
10:56:03 <shachaf> I didn't either, but then he decided to take a particular dislike to me for some reason.
10:56:18 <kmc> huh, odd
10:56:45 <shachaf> There were other conversations in the channel so I decided it would be reasonable.
10:59:48 <kmc> the other day someone joined and asked about the most pythonic way to solve some problem
10:59:52 <kmc> (cause that's a thing that happens apparently)
11:00:05 <kmc> and cheater gave just about the most convoluted, un-pythonic solution you could reasonably pass off as serious code
11:02:22 <kmc> i don't know if he was trolling, or just felt obliged to give some answer (even a bad one) immediately
11:05:35 <oklopol> i still don't get what the cheater fuss was all about
11:05:50 <oklopol> i'm way more annoying
11:09:04 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
11:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You're annoying in an amusing way.
11:09:32 <oklopol> :(
11:09:39 <oklopol> BUT I TRY SO HARD
11:10:04 <oklopol> so this #codez, is it like esoteric but without all that annoying programming stuff
11:12:32 <kmc> haha
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12:21:25 <oklopol> kmc: is that a no
12:22:52 <oklopol> actually it seems to be like esoteric but without all that annoying anything.
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14:09:37 <Taneb> Hello
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14:19:21 <Lumpio-> huzzah!
14:19:37 <Taneb> Yo.
14:40:37 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
15:20:55 <Taneb> @ping
15:20:56 <lambdabot> pong
15:23:42 <itidus21> @iuher
15:23:43 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
15:23:49 <itidus21> @irti
15:23:49 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
15:23:53 <itidus21> @ahuis
15:23:53 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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15:33:55 <itidus21> possible candidate for worst wikipedia page ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_property
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15:35:42 <itidus21> an object lesson in how not to do a wikipedia article
15:37:49 <itidus21> maybe it's just me.. blood sugar could be low etc.
15:41:09 <olsner> itidus21: bad, but not bad enough
15:41:33 <olsner> not even interestingly bad, I think
15:49:33 <itidus21> i found it via the talk page
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16:05:03 <Taneb> Hello
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16:53:33 <oerjan> yay the housemates just moved out
16:53:47 * oerjan is hoping for at least some weeks of peace and quiet
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17:40:31 <Taneb> oerjan, followed by the person who comes to collect rent
17:42:09 <oerjan> nah, that's transferred automatically
17:45:06 <Lumpio-> wtf is the example on that wikipedia page about
17:45:25 <Taneb> Which wikipedia page?
17:46:16 <Lumpio-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_property
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18:04:20 <ion> View to a Kill - Zorin's computer http://youtu.be/043WEs_6TAo
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19:09:47 <zzo38> What things need to be done to make a option of ITMCK to make the output be more compatible with certain players?
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21:46:34 <ion> http://machinegestalt.posterous.com/if-programming-languages-were-cars
21:48:40 <mroman> then all new languages would suck?
21:48:56 <kmc> if programming languages were cars then even more people would be killed by them
21:50:56 <oklopol> all new cars suck?
21:51:12 <kmc> cars suck
21:51:19 <kmc> don't even get me started
21:51:29 <kmc> cars ruined this country basically
21:52:08 <oklopol> i agree, those things are scary.
21:52:26 <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
21:52:33 <pikhq_> Car companies buying and destroying all public transit way back when, y'mean?
21:52:54 <oklopol> but stating that new cars suck seems weird, at least new cars are way less ugly
21:53:38 <pikhq_> I mean, jeeze, turn of the century almost all cities ran on gigantic streetcar systems.
21:54:24 <kmc> that's one of the many ways cars ruined the country
21:54:55 <oklopol> "C: Still the best systems programming language 40 years later."
21:55:02 <oklopol> ...
21:55:07 <oklopol> oh systems
21:55:08 <oklopol> :D
21:55:37 <kmc> it's only "the best" because it's barely good enough and so all attempts to replace it with something better have failed
21:55:54 <oklopol> well yes, but imagine my horror when i didn't notice the word "systems".
21:56:10 <pikhq_> Well, see, if it weren't for that cars would not be anywhere *near* as relevant. Before the streetcar systems were destroyed, cars were seen as luxuries...
21:56:21 <kmc> i think you have causality backwards there
21:56:32 <kmc> there was a conspiracy by car-related industries to destroy streetcars
21:56:33 <ion> Бойня кошек на Лестнице http://youtu.be/8FRBQOrvURA
21:56:36 <kmc> but it was only accelerating an existing trend
21:56:37 <pikhq_> Yes. Bastards.
21:56:55 <kmc> with or without that, cars became much more affordable and people could have them
21:57:04 <ion> If bad programming languages killed more people perhaps programming languages wouldn’t suck as much.
21:57:06 <pikhq_> Anyways. Yes, I agree, cars are a *real friggin' problem*.
21:57:09 <mroman> oklopol: Yes @all new cars suck.
21:57:13 <kmc> which led to the building of massive road infrastructure coupled with the decline of rail infrastructure
21:57:14 <mroman> They look like shit, literally.
21:57:23 <kmc> which produced these horrid, unsustainable modes of living
21:57:42 <oklopol> new cars look modern and nice, old cars look ugly and boring.
21:57:45 <mroman> http://www.nfscars.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=201&pictureid=4092 <- that is a car.
21:58:00 <oklopol> that looks like a banana mated with a robot
21:58:03 <mroman> http://www.quaiswaseeq.com/top-5-muscle-cars-of-all-times/muscle_cars/1969-chevrolet-camaro-ss.jpg <- that is a car
21:58:04 <kmc> where you live in a McMansion in suburbia and the closest you have to a "town center" is a malignant tumor of big box stores, strip malls, and office parks
21:58:25 <mroman> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Overhaulin_442.jpg <- that is a car
21:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> new cars look modern and nice, old cars look ugly and boring.
21:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Which kind of new car
21:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean
21:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> fairly new
21:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> or new new
21:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> because there was that whole thing where angles came into fashion
21:59:25 <mroman> http://www.wallpapers-football.net/Other-wallpapers/car/car8.jpg <- looks stupid
21:59:30 <oklopol> mroman: in all seriousness, yeah those look okay. not as nice as new ones, but okay.
21:59:45 <pikhq_> kmc: Little boxes of ticky-tacky, little boxes all the same...
21:59:47 <mroman> http://pics.ricardostatic.ch/ImgUsers/EuroTax/p0502828.jpg <- looks like crap
21:59:48 <oklopol> the last one is obviously the prettiest
22:00:12 <oklopol> the last last one looks so sexy i would totally mate with it
22:00:19 <mroman> http://www.auto-bilder.org/autobilder/volvo-c30-3729.jpg <- ugly
22:00:21 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:00:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ok kmc, pikhq_, cut the circlejerk
22:00:28 <kmc> tbh streetcars aren't that great
22:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> well
22:00:41 <kmc> they have some advantages over buses but it's not a huge difference imo
22:00:41 <oklopol> okay the last last last one is the super bestest.
22:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc is ok because he tends to have a fairly balanced perspective
22:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, ew no, not enough angles
22:00:54 <mroman> I like old cars :)
22:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> not
22:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover> enough
22:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> angles
22:01:09 <pikhq_> kmc: The advantage is they could've been built into a more robust transit system. If developed instead of destroyed.
22:01:14 <mroman> well
22:01:18 <mroman> a subset of old cars :)
22:01:22 <oklopol> mroman: in all real seriousness, i don't give a shit, i wouldn't buy any of those
22:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> the subset
22:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> with angles
22:01:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ?
22:01:35 <mroman> whatever
22:01:40 <kmc> pikhq_: by building new tunnels, you mean?
22:01:42 <mroman> yes
22:01:47 <mroman> the subset with edges and angles.
22:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> also tbh aesthetics comes a long way after, for instance, crumple zones
22:02:12 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRBQOrvURA&feature=youtu.be this one i would buy
22:02:16 <kmc> streetcar tunnels are kinda nice but I think proper grade-separated heavy rail rapid transit is much much better
22:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, what do you think, of trams
22:02:31 <kmc> if you're going to the expense of new tunnels, maybe you should just build a new rapid transit system
22:02:38 <pikhq_> kmc: There's reason to *move* that way when not everyone has cars.
22:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no that's a cat
22:02:54 <kmc> and there have been a fair number of those constructed in post-WWII america
22:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i know you finns have problems with r/t
22:03:01 <kmc> not as many as there should be, but still
22:03:05 <kmc> more than new streetcar systems
22:03:15 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, trams! i need to know
22:03:18 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sorry i have visual dyslexia and thought that was a video of a car.
22:03:28 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: trams and streetcars are the same thing
22:03:32 <kmc> en_US vs en_UK or something
22:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> is that like where you confuse things based on whether theyre spelt similarly
22:03:43 <oklopol> yes
22:03:52 <oklopol> i need to see a description in writing
22:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, oh right, for some reason i was thinking cable car (??)
22:04:04 <kmc> yeah
22:04:07 <oklopol> to notice subtle differences in spelling
22:04:08 <pikhq_> Streetcars in modern use have little to no reason to be built further, yes. The *point* is that it's mass transit, and when everyone uses mass transit you have reason to do more mass transit.
22:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the reason i ask is because we have an infamously terrible tram system in edinburgh
22:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> well
22:04:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *will* have
22:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's following the duke nukem school of development
22:04:41 <kmc> there's also the "aerial tram" which is kind of like an enclosed ski lift car
22:04:45 <kmc> hangs from a cable in the air
22:04:47 <pikhq_> Rather than, y'know. "Yeah, we put in a single line cause that's 'green', but really everyone has a car so who cares."
22:04:53 <kmc> there's one of these in NYC actually
22:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, they have those in detroit in DX:HR!!!
22:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, detroit in HR does not resemble real detroit in any meaningful way
22:05:33 <oklopol> from tv shows, i've learned that americans only ride the bus if they are really poor
22:05:40 <kmc> yeah
22:05:55 <oklopol> this never ceases to amaze me.
22:05:59 <kmc> except in new york city, maybe
22:06:06 <kmc> even there, you take the subway if at all possible
22:06:14 <pikhq_> oklopol: Yes. It's *severely* difficult to use the buses in most cities, and so it is extremely beneficial to get a car if at all possible.
22:06:21 <kmc> anyway this is why there is no political support for public transit
22:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oh yeah, that's the other reason the trams here are awful, we have a perfectly good bus system
22:06:55 <kmc> it's also part of the calculus on, should you build new transit systems in places with none, or should you improve transit in places with high transit ridership already
22:06:57 <pikhq_> oklopol: We're talking "add on an extra hour to your transit, at least".
22:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, do the buses, like, drive 5 miles backwards?
22:07:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And only then start going where they're meant to?
22:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Or is that just because American cities are ridiculously sprawling.
22:08:08 <oklopol> i can't really imagine an enjoyable life where i frequently have to travel distances i can't easily walk.
22:08:16 <kmc> buses are infrequent and they don't go to exactly where you want to go
22:08:23 <kmc> so you might have to transfer, and wait for the next bus which is also late
22:08:30 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Combination of American cities being ridiculously sprawling and buses being very infrequent and bus routes being sparse.
22:08:43 <kmc> buses are much more usable if you have a smartphone, because many cities have realtime online tracking of buses now
22:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, there's a road near my house which I swear has a bus stop every 50 metres.
22:08:52 <mroman> o_O
22:09:22 <mroman> @smartphone tracking
22:09:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's annoying if you're on the bus because you're constantly stopping because one person is at each stop.
22:09:44 <kmc> anyway it's obvious that buses can never be faster than driving
22:09:49 <mroman> We have roughly every km a bus stop.
22:10:00 <mroman> Which is how it should be :)
22:10:04 <kmc> that's why you need proper dedicated right-of-way rapid transit
22:10:38 <kmc> one of the dumb things in America is local zoning laws which prohibit dense development, mandate a certain amount of parking for businesses, etc
22:11:09 <fizzie> Buses are faster than driving here during rush hour, since the major roads have bus lanes. (Granted, that's not very often.)
22:11:10 <kmc> in the south San Francisco Bay Area, you have lots of wealth, and lots of people who would love to live in a real, dense city, but it's just illegal for them to make one
22:11:42 <fizzie> I guess they're not if you drive in the bus lanes too, but that's illeggul.
22:11:53 <pikhq_> Some cities get it stupider still... For instance, the city I'm in (Colorado Springs) has height limits on buildings.
22:12:26 <oklopol> kmc: do they keep some parts completely undeveloped and foresty, or just empty?
22:12:32 <pikhq_> IIRC, you can't go above 8 stories, period.
22:12:47 <oklopol> because the one reason i love about finland is that there are trees.
22:13:03 <oklopol> the rest of europe is just horrible
22:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> one of the dumb things in America is local zoning laws which prohibit dense development, mandate a certain amount of parking for businesses, etc
22:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> you what
22:13:19 <pikhq_> Colorado Springs is thus even more sprawly than usual.
22:13:24 <oklopol> (well sweden is just a better finland ofc but i mean the southern countries)
22:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, and people do complain on pretty much all "tall building" projects here, on the grounds that it ruins the (pretty much flat) skyline.
22:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, um sorry sweden is the: worst
22:14:36 <kmc> oklopol: there are many undeveloped forest or desert parts of the USA
22:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That tallest building in Edinburgh is 19th-century.
22:14:41 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that's pretty typical...
22:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *the
22:14:55 <oklopol> i pretty much prefer all countries in the scandinavia family over the rest of europe
22:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (The highest off the ground is IIRC also the oldest building in the city.)
22:15:38 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: US zoning laws typically mandate low-density development.
22:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, ...why?
22:16:02 <kmc> if you built high density housing, dangerous minorities would move in
22:16:24 <oklopol> forest parts sound nice, you should keep it that way.
22:16:25 <kmc> rich white people left the cities in the 60's due to high crime
22:16:28 <pikhq_> And if you built shops without giant parking lots, then you couldn't get your land yacht there.
22:16:30 <oklopol> please tell my opinion to all americans
22:16:52 <kmc> and then they passed laws to prevent their new suburban areas from becoming like those cities, without regard to which properties of cities are good or bad
22:16:57 <pikhq_> oklopol: It would be very, very hard for us to *not* keep forests.
22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I'm not even sure how many surviving forests there are in the UK...
22:17:21 <kmc> Boston in particular has a lot of nice parks within or just outside the city
22:17:47 <pikhq_> Pretty sure we have multiple forests larger than the UK.
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I think there are bits of the Highlands which have gone mostly untouched, but south of that almost everywhere's cultivated to some extent.
22:17:52 <kmc> there are more than a dozen large, substantial parks i can bike to easily from my home
22:17:58 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i saw some in scotland, but only on some sort of island. then again i guess forests are not scotland's thing.
22:18:16 <fizzie> Wolfram|Alpha is unable to tell me how many trees there are in Finland.
22:18:20 <kmc> NYC has a lot of parks too
22:18:51 <oklopol> kmc: sounds nice
22:19:05 <oklopol> kmc: are they full of murderers?
22:19:06 <kmc> some (like Central Park) are obsessively designed and sculpted, so they aren't really "nature", but still very very nice
22:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well on the couple of trips I've had to the Highlands I've definitely visited forests.
22:19:20 <kmc> but even in Manhattan, there's Inwood Hill Park, which feels like being lost in the woods
22:19:42 <oklopol> i've only been to uk once and we didn't exactly try to seek forests
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22:19:57 <oklopol> so really i don't have any idea
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22:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> goddamn window focus
22:20:21 <oklopol> but let me tell you about this one time i went to paris and decided i'll just sleep in the forest.
22:20:21 <kmc> i think it's a property of the old cities in the east of the USA in general
22:20:29 <kmc> that they have lots of parks
22:20:36 <oklopol> i didn't sleep in the forest. there are none.
22:20:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_woodland
22:21:26 <oklopol> in retrospect i was pretty retarded
22:21:51 <oklopol> people told me there are no forests but i was like hey i don't mind walking a few kilometers.
22:22:44 <oklopol> it was also fun trying to get to the eiffel tower with a backpack, turns out they won't let you leave it anywhere. not even in the finnish embassy :(
22:22:58 <oklopol> i left it in a park i found about 4 km from the tower
22:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the world come to when embassies won't even give their citizens backpack storage.
22:23:44 <oklopol> yeah :/
22:23:50 <oklopol> that was the only place that really considered it
22:24:16 <oklopol> they all spoke finnish so they took my plight pretty seriously
22:24:34 <oklopol> they even called somewhere to check that there's no way
22:24:37 <oklopol> and there was no way
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22:24:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Are Finns compelled to take anything said in Finnish seriously.
22:25:33 <oklopol> you wouldn't understand, your language is a minority.
22:25:53 <itidus21> "your money.. it has all been lost" said in finnish :D
22:25:53 <oklopol> erm
22:25:55 <oklopol> *isn't
22:26:01 <olsner> I for one won't take anything said in Finnish seriously
22:26:14 <itidus21> ^Finnish
22:26:47 <oklopol> olsner: go easy on finland i just praised yours :(
22:27:05 <oklopol> let's end the hate
22:27:20 <olsner> what, end it? but hate is so fun!
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22:27:26 <oklopol> indeed it is
22:27:32 <pikhq_> olsner: Oh, come now, surely you can hate some other group.
22:27:40 <pikhq_> Like the poor sods in France!
22:27:44 <oklopol> fuck you olsner, if i ever meet you, i will chop off your head and feed it to a rabbit
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, see now you have learnt life's most valuable lesson:]
22:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> never be nice to sweden
22:27:55 <Phantom_Hoover> That's the spirit!!
22:28:15 <itidus21> ive never been outside australia
22:28:21 <itidus21> but
22:28:27 <oklopol> i've never been outside the complement of australia
22:28:39 <pikhq_> Likewise.
22:29:01 <oklopol> maybe this means me and itidus21 are part of the proof that the earth is hausdorff with the country topology
22:29:07 <itidus21> if one considers the earth as a big rock with water on it.. then this all sounds liess exciting
22:29:20 <itidus21> ^less
22:29:28 <pikhq_> Most rocks don't have magma centers.
22:29:45 <oklopol> even big ones?
22:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, wouldn't iti have to have never been outside the interior of Australia for that to work.
22:30:06 <oklopol> (i should probably know whether they do)
22:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Depends on how big they are.
22:30:35 <itidus21> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4C_tSMqS810/Swyal4RdGAI/AAAAAAAAE_Y/Ev07Fu2dueo/s1600/simpsons,+vishnu,+hindu,+atheism,+cosmology.jpg
22:31:25 <olsner> oklopol: sorry for speaking evils about Finland, please don't kill me if we meet
22:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, don't listen to him
22:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> he's manipulating you
22:31:41 <oklopol> olsner: i'm a very gentle killer
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22:32:13 <oklopol> olsner: alternatively we can have a beer and be best buds.
22:32:25 <itidus21> i have been to 2 australian states and 1 australian territory
22:33:10 <itidus21> and 32 super mario bros. levels
22:33:29 <itidus21> ok maybe not all 32
22:33:35 <oklopol> you should write a blog about your travels, i'd totally give it a read
22:33:38 <olsner> oklopol: "gently" chopping someone's head off sounds difficult, you must be skilled
22:34:05 <itidus21> oklopol: well in a single trip we travelled through all 3
22:34:18 <itidus21> when my dad did some work in canberra for a week or 2
22:34:18 <oklopol> itidus21: this is irc, you can't blog here
22:34:24 <oklopol> but okay do tell
22:34:25 <itidus21> oh
22:34:29 <itidus21> well thats it
22:34:33 <oklopol> oh
22:34:40 <oklopol> short and sweet
22:34:51 <olsner> itidus21: have you visited any of the cantons in austria as well?
22:35:02 <itidus21> yes
22:35:08 <oklopol> like an asian strawberry prostitute
22:35:30 <itidus21> i have visited 5 cantons in austria
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22:37:24 <oklopol> sudden craving of strawberries
22:38:13 <itidus21> i'm ambivalent about them
22:38:21 <oklopol> why is that
22:38:42 <itidus21> not enough good strawberries
22:38:56 <oklopol> they are a rare breed
22:38:59 <itidus21> i appreciate that the poor plants go through hell over it though
22:39:12 <olsner> no strawberries in austria?
22:39:26 <oklopol> and very few of them will actually let you have sex with them.
22:39:35 <itidus21> like, "here.. i consumed most of my lifes energy making these, go ahead, take them.... what do i care'
22:39:47 <oklopol> although i did mean a craving for eating them
22:39:49 <itidus21> they're only my children
22:40:08 <oklopol> :(
22:40:10 <olsner> I think most berries are made to be eaten
22:40:15 <oklopol> i will never eat strawberries again
22:40:19 <itidus21> hahahaha
22:40:23 <olsner> that's how the plants distribute their seeds, given that they don't walk
22:40:26 <itidus21> olsner is right
22:40:31 <oklopol> he is?
22:40:37 <olsner> of course I am!
22:40:37 <itidus21> berries are unhappy if they are not eaten
22:40:46 <olsner> yeah, just like cows
22:40:49 <oklopol> so can i eat them without being evil?
22:40:52 <itidus21> they will just fall to the ground and rot
22:40:59 <itidus21> like my quamquots do at times
22:41:02 <oklopol> just like cows
22:41:55 <itidus21> ... infact i think strawberries want to make use of your shit as fertilizer or something
22:42:02 <itidus21> just a guess
22:42:03 <oklopol> ooh kinky
22:42:41 <itidus21> and
22:42:44 <itidus21> with this in mind
22:42:51 <oklopol> oh it's there alright
22:43:01 <itidus21> one can see perhaps why animals are so picky about where they do their doodoo
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22:43:31 <oklopol> because they want to fertilize only the sexiest strawberries?
22:43:45 <itidus21> well it's a great responsibility
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22:43:51 <oklopol> yeah
22:44:00 <itidus21> you can't just eat seeds and deposit them at random
22:44:38 <olsner> I think animals get picky if they have somewhat fixed nesting places where they benefit from not rolling in shit, but otherwise aren't picky at all, in general
22:44:48 <oklopol> yeah there's child support and shit to think about
22:44:55 <itidus21> interdependance is weird
22:45:11 <olsner> strawberries don't ask for child support
22:45:18 <olsner> I think we haven't told them they can, or something
22:45:30 <olsner> somewhat unfair, but economical
22:45:31 <itidus21> they don't seem to care
22:45:37 <oklopol> well that's slavery
22:45:54 <oklopol> i'm sure they'd have a use for money
22:45:55 <oklopol> well paper money
22:45:56 <olsner> would they care if they knew? I think they ought to know, so they can decide whether to care
22:46:03 <itidus21> plants are used to being slaves
22:46:17 <itidus21> ok maybe not
22:46:17 <oklopol> so were black people and women
22:46:25 <oklopol> back then
22:46:42 <itidus21> brb... toast time!
22:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> if plants can deal with it so can black people
22:47:16 <olsner> itidus21: with dismembered and squashed strawberries on top?
22:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> no, dismembered and squashed black people
22:47:32 <olsner> drawn and quartered
22:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "petermolydeux ‏@PeterMolydeux
22:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do keys remain in your inventory until you use them? What if you could actually misplace them? or you unknowingly dropped one?"
22:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> TOO FAR
22:48:28 <olsner> why is that too far? sounds neatly realistic
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22:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oh god
22:48:48 <olsner> there can be actual holes in pants, for example
22:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> no
22:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't
22:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> understand
22:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover> even joking about it
22:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> make it more likely to come true
22:49:16 <kmc> that's just what i always wanted, a losing-your-keys simulator
22:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "How about an escort mission where YOU play as the escort for a horrible agent. Give them a mental breakdown by repeatably getting in the way"
22:49:38 <oklopol> i love losing my keys, it's these little things that make days magical.
22:49:40 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I assume that you are talking about some game you play and therefore care about not being able to lose your keys in?
22:49:42 <oklopol> unfortunately i never do :(
22:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i would play the shit out of that game
22:49:58 <oklopol> but luckily i fuck up every other thing
22:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, yes by which i mean literally any game with keys
22:50:34 <olsner> btw, one of the halo games worked well as a "lost in empty space station" simulator
22:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> so it's like system shock?
22:51:16 <olsner> "oh, did you think this was a running-around-and-shooting game? nope, it's just a maze!"
22:51:25 <oklopol> with no exit
22:51:39 <olsner> haven't played system shock, so I wouldn't know
22:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, oh man you clearly never played the second-last level of Halo 3
22:52:13 <olsner> I have only played one of them and it was 10 years ago
22:52:13 <oklopol> is halo an fps?
22:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "OK so you run around and shoot people, except none of them have ammo, the environment is a bunch of boring meat corridors and once you think you've reached the end you have to turn back around and do it all over again, backwards!"
22:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, yes.
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22:54:24 <oklopol> none of them have ammo? oh god you don't have to shoot civilians do you? how twisted, i'm sure most gamers would stop in horror.
22:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, civilians would at least not put up a fight.
22:54:47 <kmc> system shock 2 is a great game
22:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, I haven't played it, I just know there's a space station (OK spaceship, same difference) involved.
22:56:20 <kmc> a few spaceships actually
22:56:23 <oklopol> and every time you shoot a civilian, you are shown a clip of their family crying
22:56:31 <oklopol> kind of like in that austin powers movie or what was it
22:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, are you the one behind peter molydeux
22:57:01 <oklopol> no, but i almost took part in it
22:57:12 <oklopol> i was invited
22:57:13 <oklopol> sorta
22:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Peter Molydeux, the man, the mystery, the inspiration for the recent MolyJam game jam that attracted more than 1,000 people to more than 30 locations worldwide."
22:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So that's like 30 people per location?
22:58:37 <oklopol> so it would seem
22:59:20 <oklopol> i think there was a location at our university. or something.
22:59:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It could so easily have been 31
22:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> well
22:59:36 <zzo38> Some people say the 7xxx version numbering scheme for .IT files is bad idea http://wiki.openmpt.org/Talk:Development:_Formats/IT
22:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> 30 + 1/30
22:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i presume oko would split himself evenly across all venues
22:59:56 <oklopol> naturally
23:00:05 <oklopol> otherwise it would be just unfair.
23:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> would you doing it according to continuous chess principles
23:01:06 <oklopol> i would totally being do it that ways.
23:01:25 <oklopol> wait
23:01:35 <oklopol> did you say doing because it's the continuous form
23:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> naturally
23:02:49 <oklopol> from now on i shall call you the high priest of continuous chessism.
23:03:27 <olsner> Given a solid oklo in 3‑dimensional space, there exists a decomposition of the oklo into a finite number of non-overlapping pieces (i.e. subsets), which can then be put back together in a different way to yield two identical copies of the original oklo.
23:03:32 <oklopol> oh fuck it's 2 am
23:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> in the afterlife you need to divide yourself between heaven and hell such that your centre of mass lies in limbo
23:03:54 <oklopol> thus solving the molydeux unfairness problem
23:04:23 <oklopol> that was to olsner, although probably being in limbo solves all problems
23:04:47 <olsner> no, it creates all problems, but if you reverse time that's probably equivalent
23:05:51 <oklopol> i hear the universe is reversible.
23:06:51 <oklopol> unfortunately, reversible 3d CA do not have a computable upperbound for the radius of the inverse CA :(
23:07:09 <oklopol> that's why time travel is hard
23:07:22 <oklopol> that has to be it
23:07:50 <olsner> that and the lack of working time machines
23:08:17 <oklopol> erm that's why there's a lack
23:09:02 <itidus21> i would like to see a game which implemented that tarski banach thing
23:09:41 <oklopol> can you elaborate on implement
23:09:59 <itidus21> yup, one moment
23:10:51 <oklopol> iti went to write a constructive proof.
23:11:02 <oklopol> well it was nice knowing you.
23:13:35 <itidus21> ok what i had in mind is that it is a game where you can somehow cut objects up, and reconstruct them, where the game simulates nonmeasurable sets somehow
23:13:55 <zzo38> Does afterlife have a center of mass?
23:13:56 <itidus21> whatever these nonmeasurable sets are
23:15:01 <oklopol> so like you have 5 question marks that you can move around
23:16:16 <itidus21> it really surprises me that it only works in 3d
23:16:24 <itidus21> 3d and up
23:16:52 <oklopol> you can do things that are "against geometric intuition" in any dimension though.
23:17:24 <oklopol> just not that particular thing i guess
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23:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, the gist of it is that it's because if you do two rotations in succession in 2D they'll be the same as if they were in the opposite order, but the same is not true in 3D.
23:19:27 <itidus21> ahh
23:19:33 <oklopol> ooh ooh free group free group NONAMENABLE GROUP OF ROTATIONS
23:19:43 <oklopol> ...or so i hear
23:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yes oko the reason i was avoiding mentioning those words is because iti is now going to look them up and confuse himself horribly
23:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> well done
23:20:24 <oklopol> sorry :(
23:20:41 <oklopol> so are you in a math university yet
23:20:46 <itidus21> so 2d rotations are .. c-something
23:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> no
23:21:03 <itidus21> commutative
23:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> now i'm waiting to see if i messed up the "you want to do maths with us hahaha fuck off" test i had to sit
23:21:17 <oklopol> why not, you already know all the right words :/
23:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit why didn't i think of that
23:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd probably have gained like 10 marks for 'amenable'
23:21:55 <oklopol> i was actually just proctoring that sorta thing
23:22:06 <oklopol> and laughing at people's answers
23:22:30 <oklopol> iti, yes, commutative means ab = ba
23:23:05 <itidus21> i am getting better at this stuff.. but when? well thats more complicated
23:23:08 <oklopol> and 2d rotations form a commutative group with respect to their natural composition, which is "first rotate like this, then rotate like this"
23:23:53 <itidus21> certain things get in the way of learning
23:23:59 <oklopol> identity being "don't rotate at all" and inversion being, bare with me this gets complicated, "rotate in the other direction".
23:24:05 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
23:24:06 <itidus21> for some reason or other
23:24:09 <oklopol> "...by the same amount"
23:24:16 <itidus21> and when those things go away, learning can proceed
23:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> also there's associativity but it's trivially obvious when you explain it like that
23:25:19 <oklopol> yeah because a
23:25:21 <oklopol> erm
23:25:50 <oklopol> well let's just leave it like that
23:25:51 <oklopol> i like it
23:26:14 <itidus21> so if you rotated 5 degrees then -2 degrees.. for a total rotation of 3 degrees.. would the inverse be -3 degrees?
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
23:26:43 <itidus21> humm..
23:27:16 <oklopol> yeah so basically 2d rotations are just numbers modulo 2pi, or 360 if you prefer
23:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile, in 3D, if you rotate an object 90 degrees around the x axis then 90 degrees around the y axis you get a different overall transformation to rotating by the y axis and then x.
23:27:54 <itidus21> yup.. 1 circle mapped onto some unit
23:27:55 <oklopol> which makes it even more obvious that they are commutative
23:27:59 <oklopol> and associative
23:28:36 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sooo you start next fall?
23:28:48 <itidus21> but suppose you had a unit which was 1 = 720 degrees. i suppose nothing exciting would come of it
23:28:51 <oklopol> assuming you aren't way stupider than you look
23:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I should be safe, I look pretty stupid.
23:29:22 <oklopol> good.
23:30:56 <oklopol> itidus21: i'm not touching that one due to having a hunch you could connect it to some of the pictures in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface
23:30:57 <Patashu> has anyone ever actually plaed continuous chess?
23:31:02 <Patashu> it looks like a buff to bishops and a nerf to knights
23:31:12 <oklopol> Patashu: i think i let ph win me in it once
23:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, I let you amend the rules so you captured the closure of your piece.
23:32:17 <oklopol> right, but we then played again
23:32:29 <oklopol> that was more of a joke
23:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, hmm, I thought knights would be overpowered due to them being able to move through other piece.
23:33:00 <itidus21> log z looks like a water slide
23:33:06 <Patashu> I am a continuous chess armchair theorist
23:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can basically bump a fairly small amount of knight into the enemy's queen on the first move, making the queen totally useless for capturing.
23:34:24 <oklopol> how sad
23:34:34 <oklopol> okay i have to go, i have important work to do tomorrow
23:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not totally, but unable to checkmate of her own accord.
23:34:53 <oklopol> see uu
23:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Although considering that determining checkmate is everything-hard that's not a massive disadvantage.
23:35:06 <itidus21> humm
23:35:38 <itidus21> i don't want to keep oko about, but the rest of you can hear this
23:35:42 <oklopol> btw your last statement reminded me of http://arxiv.org/abs/1201.5597
23:36:00 <oklopol> itidus21: what you have a problem with me????
23:36:12 <itidus21> no you need to go for important work
23:36:24 <oklopol> oh right, it is indeed important
23:36:26 <oklopol> so important.
23:36:47 <itidus21> haha.
23:37:06 <itidus21> so i have always (not always) thought of chess as a CA
23:37:14 <itidus21> but i guess part of it didn't make sense
23:37:17 <oklopol> ...a CA you say?
23:37:19 <oklopol> argh bye.
23:37:47 <ion> I’m impressed by how easy it was to create a new LXC container. apt-get install lxc && lxc-create -t ubuntu -n foo && lxc-start -n foo, done.
23:37:53 <itidus21> but just now it occurs to me that what a board game does different than a typical CA is it makes exactly 1 change per iteration
23:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And is nondeterministic.
23:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And has unbounded neighbourhoods.
23:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And has a handful of instances of hidden state.
23:38:53 <itidus21> well you could make it deterministic, like a "film"
23:39:14 <itidus21> and you could make the neighbourhood the entire board
23:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Nondeterministic CAs are perfectly cromulent, they just aren't used as much.
23:40:14 <oklopol> there's a decent amount of research on those
23:40:20 <oklopol> argh
23:40:31 <Phantom_Hoover> vs. what exists for deterministic CAs?
23:40:33 <itidus21> ^i don't want to keep oko about, but the rest of you can hear this
23:40:34 <oklopol> are you seriously discussing CA just when i'm trying to leave
23:40:42 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well i suppose not.
23:40:47 <itidus21> i did a half arsed disclaimer
23:40:51 <oklopol> the most famous big CA theorem is for nondeterministic CA
23:40:58 <itidus21> i was well aware of this problem oklopol
23:41:05 <itidus21> but the thought would be lost
23:41:07 <itidus21> otherwise
23:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well we would not want such a thought lost to the world
23:42:31 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0003117v1.pdf this little thing
23:42:48 <itidus21> anyway you hinted that tomorrow isn't important
23:42:56 <oklopol> it's just another day
23:43:19 <oklopol> well, my colleagues are back from uk so i can tell my coauthor about my results from this week.
23:43:28 <itidus21> hmm.. the thing about man discovering fire is that he already knew what fire was
23:43:48 <oklopol> although i will prolly publish them myself since i basically finished the article already
23:43:49 <itidus21> so it was like.. hmm my whole life i have seen fires.. how do i make one?
23:44:18 <itidus21> but for us modern humans.. we are not readily exposed to things we can't reproduce
23:44:22 <oklopol> buy a lighter and improve on it
23:44:37 <oklopol> we aren't|
23:44:39 <oklopol> ?
23:44:56 <oklopol> let my just quickly reproduce this computer of mine.
23:45:03 <oklopol> just gimme a shovel
23:45:31 <itidus21> it must have been awe inspiring to not know any means to create fire
23:46:14 <oklopol> yeah kind of like last week it was inspiring that no one basically had any idea what kind of subshifts can be the sets of surjective sequences of nonuniform bounded radius CA
23:46:27 <oklopol> and then some genius proved that at least every SFT is
23:46:35 <itidus21> exactly
23:47:01 <oklopol> i wish i could shake his right hand with my right hand, but that'll never happen :(
23:47:06 -!- kmc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:47:13 <itidus21> oh it could happen!
23:47:38 -!- kmc has joined.
23:47:39 <oklopol> how
23:47:42 <itidus21> as far as what "could" happen... you may end up even as neighbours one day
23:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> no it cant
23:47:54 <oklopol> well we kind of are neighbors
23:48:00 <Phantom_Hoover> for one thing, it was proven by a woman
23:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> for another
23:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> she doesn't have a right hand
23:48:14 <itidus21> humm
23:48:36 <itidus21> those are non-trivial obstacles
23:48:57 <Vorpal> <itidus21> so it was like.. hmm my whole life i have seen fires.. how do i make one? <-- uh? How old were you then?
23:49:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: are you trying to make me be even less subtle and say "no it was me who proved it"?
23:49:14 <Vorpal> oh wait misread
23:49:17 <Vorpal> right
23:49:18 <oklopol> because that'll never happen.
23:49:23 <oklopol> it's called modesty.
23:49:40 <itidus21> wiki calls it "almost certainly won't happen"
23:49:47 <itidus21> but it might
23:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, why would I make you say that?
23:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems strange to try to make someone say something that's not true.
23:50:35 <oklopol> but
23:50:36 <oklopol> umm
23:50:39 <oklopol> :(
23:50:56 <itidus21> ahh
23:51:07 <itidus21> most amusing
23:51:39 <itidus21> you just need to use another form of the verb shake!
23:52:04 <itidus21> humm no same verb
23:52:05 <itidus21> but
23:52:11 <oklopol> could you show me this woman, my girlfriend is a lowly statistician :(
23:52:20 <itidus21> transitive verb vs intransitive verb
23:52:55 <oklopol> well i can do the standard english construction
23:53:02 <oklopol> but it gets kind of crazy
23:53:10 <oklopol> "shake"
23:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well I mean if you'd go out with a statistician I'm not sure you'd be attracted to a woman who can do real maths.
23:53:28 <itidus21> the context suggested a transitive verb
23:53:42 <itidus21> but if you meant an intransitive verb then you could shake his right hand
23:53:45 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: err why?
23:54:06 <itidus21> oops what the hell do i mean
23:54:15 <itidus21> no i give up
23:54:18 <oklopol> i have never dated a mathematician, have always wanted to try but they are hard to find.
23:54:26 <itidus21> im going to nap
23:54:30 <oklopol> :D
23:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well yeah, but then why a statistician?
23:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> They're, like, the opposite of mathematicians.
23:55:09 <oklopol> i only learn about her condition after we'd signed the going out agreement.
23:55:16 <oklopol> *learned
23:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> See that's why you have to be open about that kind of thing.
23:57:26 <oklopol> when i told her about CA and gave a specific one, she ran a few iterations of it on paper. god that was sexy.
23:59:24 <oklopol> okay silence, my cue to leave
23:59:32 <oklopol> (seriously)
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