←2012-06-24 2012-06-25 2012-06-26→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:17 <Vorpal> night
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00:58:50 <kmc> apparently in D&D 5E, the square root of 2 is now 1
01:02:02 <zzo38> Well, I don't like 4E and 5E. I play 3.5E but I prefer to make up the Icosahedral RPG instead, which has many differences and some similarities too.
01:05:16 <pikhq_> kmc: Not that the rules for diagonal movement have ever made much sense.
01:05:48 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_dnd.icosahedral-rpg-i A round is grouped into six segments (although spells may locally adjust the rules of the game temporarily), there is partial ordering on multimanas, it never uses a grid with movable figures on it, etc
01:10:24 <zzo38> I don't know maybe some things you prefer and others you dislike, but, whatever it is
01:12:24 <shachaf> kmc: It is?
01:17:06 <kmc> i am shocked, shocked to find out that zzo38 prefers an obscure RPG which is played over Gopher
01:17:42 <copumpkin> lol
01:18:37 <zzo38> It is not played over Gopher! It is not played by computer at all.
01:21:14 <zzo38> Here is a part of the rules I have typed: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/ (Some day I may rewrite Icoruma in C or Haskell instead of PHP; I may also rewrite the TeX macro files or perhaps do typesetting directly with Haskell (using the "dvi-processing" package).)
01:21:43 <zzo38> Who told you the game was played by computer?
01:23:00 <kmc> ChanServ
01:24:10 <zzo38> ChanServ?
01:24:20 <kmc> yes
01:24:25 <kmc> we're best buddies
01:24:30 <kmc> she tells me everything
01:25:22 <zzo38> Well, it is wrong. Tell Freenode or whoever made up a channel that includes a message on ChanServ tell you that, that it is wrong.
01:27:27 <shachaf> I was surprised at all the "clichés" in Casablanca that were actually introduced there.
01:27:44 <kmc> sounds like tolkien
01:27:48 <kmc> which clichés?
01:28:04 <shachaf> Well, perhaps not clichés.
01:28:13 <shachaf> Things like "i am shocked, shocked"
01:28:29 <shachaf> A lot of phrases I recognized but didn't think about.
01:28:36 <kmc> yeah
01:30:57 <zzo38> However I have not played Icosahedral RPG because not even completed enough rules. So I play D&D 3.5E without miniature figures or computer, but I use computer to record the character sheets and story text. I made up my character's name using a program I have written on TI-92 calculator, it came up "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"
01:31:48 <kmc> kwigybo
01:32:53 <zzo38> After I write enough rules, I want Wizards of the Coast to publish the same rules under their own name such as "Advanced Version Dungeons&Dragons 7.4" or something while not messing up the license or anything else like that, but they can keep the money, and I do not require attribution under any use of this system.
01:38:27 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the include file is in the same directory)
01:40:02 <zzo38> Some of the campaign rules which are standard in Icosahedral RPG, I use in D&D 3.5e as well such as the "penalized resurrection" rule and the "superstitious alignments" rule.
01:40:29 <kmc> how do you decide which files to serve via http vs gopher
01:42:09 <zzo38> I did not always have a gopher service available, so any file that was HTTP is still there except the root page of HTTP, which is now empty. Nevertheless all the files are meant for direct download other than directory listings in HTTP and menus in gopher.
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01:43:36 <zzo38> But still I am using Apache for HTTP so it does support headerless HTTP properly as well, so both the gopher and HTTP files can be easily copied using netcat.
01:43:53 <zzo38> (If you don't have netcat, your computer is no good.)
01:46:07 <sebbu2> i prefer socat
01:46:58 <zzo38> OK, use socat.
01:58:59 <kmc> i will write and compile a custom C program using Berkeley sockets for each file i wish to download from you
02:04:57 <ion> I will implement a sockets library for each file i wish to download from zzo38.
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03:24:11 <zzo38> ion: You need a separate library for each file? Netcat should be good enough, but you can do that if you want to
03:24:24 <ion> ok
03:25:21 <zzo38> Better would be just write one program that can work with any file
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06:43:43 <Vorpal> morning
06:46:07 <oklopol> zzo38: you don't want money?
06:47:42 <zzo38> oklopol: For what? If I sell something, then yes I would like to get paid. But at this time I am not selling anything.
06:47:43 <itidus21> i'm kind of ambivalent about money
06:48:23 <itidus21> i'm waiting to die in an accident so i can say to myself.. wheres your money now?
06:48:43 <zzo38> How can you say anything to yourself if you are dead?
06:48:55 <itidus21> well, maybe just before i die
06:49:48 <Vorpal> huh, there are normalization forms for unicode...
06:50:05 <itidus21> the trouble is that until you die, money saves you from pain
06:50:51 <itidus21> it puts food in your stomach.. it gets your tooth ache healed.. it gives you a warm bed
06:51:13 <oklopol> right so nothing matters because life is finite
06:51:34 <oklopol> maybe you should try religion
06:51:37 <itidus21> well everyone is systematically cut-throat about money
06:52:05 <itidus21> theres no room to really relax in society
06:52:11 <oklopol> an irrational solution to an irrational problem
06:52:17 <oklopol> yes there is
06:52:23 <oklopol> i'm pretty relaxed
06:52:28 <oklopol> then again i don't have much money.
06:52:38 <Vorpal> well, nobody proved that reincarnation doesn't happen. Nor did anybody prove that it does happen.
06:52:44 <zzo38> If there is some religion you like, and/or have your own ideas about religious stuff and philosophy
06:52:48 <Vorpal> so I guess religion might be worth a try?
06:53:15 <oklopol> no that's not an acceptable reason
06:53:19 <Vorpal> true
06:53:20 <oklopol> that's stupid
06:54:06 <zzo38> I agree that is not an acceptable reason.
06:54:08 <oklopol> zzo38: non-physical things shouldn't be paid for?
06:54:10 <Vorpal> anyway, I would like some serious research to be done on topics like reincarnation and out of body experience. From what I understand there is a lack of credible research on those topics.
06:54:42 <oklopol> Vorpal: there's lack of credible research that confirms that it works
06:54:48 <itidus21> oklopol: i don't like the actuality of dealing with other humans... they're always infinitely worse than expected
06:55:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't really know of any research debunking it either though
06:55:07 <oklopol> no you're mistaken humans are nice guys
06:55:09 <itidus21> ok not always
06:55:12 <oklopol> Vorpal: well me neither.
06:55:27 <zzo38> Humans are not always nice guys.
06:55:56 <oklopol> i guess not, but most are
06:56:11 <itidus21> oklopol: deep down they are nice, but the necessities of life seems to draw out daily acidity
06:56:12 <Vorpal> oklopol, besides I have memories of out of body experiences from when I was young. Like seeing myself from outside when I was like 4 years old (and not in a mirror, it was from above and behind me).
06:56:15 <zzo38> I don't think so. Unless, you mean a different threshold.
06:56:19 <Vorpal> how? no clue
06:56:33 <oklopol> Vorpal: that's normal
06:56:51 <oklopol> i had this dream that i was flying the other night
06:56:57 <Vorpal> oklopol, indeed, but how can those memories arise? Do out of body experiences exist? If not how can it be explained
06:57:12 <zzo38> How many people have dream of flying? I don't.
06:57:27 <oklopol> they can be explained by the fact a healthy human brain can show itself pretty much anything.
06:57:49 <itidus21> oklopol: well theres some ads on tv in australia which demonstrate that bosses will regularly ask employees to do dangerous things
06:58:13 <oklopol> does that make them bad guys
06:58:22 <zzo38> Maybe
06:58:24 <oklopol> they're just killing for money
06:58:26 <itidus21> and, there was someone on some morning show once talking about how _in reality_ people will often do what their boss tells them regardless of how dangerous it is
06:58:27 <zzo38> But it depends some things
06:58:52 <itidus21> and, [i can extend this by saying] we cover this little fact up by calling it choice
06:58:53 <oklopol> it's normal to kill for money, that means the society is bad for enabling you to benefit from that and not punishing you.
06:59:10 <oklopol> also i'm not being very serious.
06:59:12 <itidus21> so long as we call it choice then it's ok
06:59:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, true, but then again I have been told by my parents that the situation I remember from an out of body perspective happened (I had fallen down some stairs and my parents were checking me for any bruises, and I remember observing that from above and behind)
06:59:40 <itidus21> whether it's your choice to join the military depends on who is asking :P
06:59:44 <Vorpal> so possibly a dream, but then maybe not?
06:59:47 <Vorpal> who knows
07:00:18 <itidus21> i mean like, if they conscript you and draft you then locally they're sure to say it's not a choice
07:00:28 <itidus21> but the people you are invading are sure to say it is your choice
07:00:39 <oklopol> erm, you don't have to dream to show yourself lies.
07:01:16 <itidus21> calling something a choice in this sense is about attributing responsibility to the individual
07:02:23 <itidus21> so, i don't think people are assholes by choice anyway.. i think it's at least as much to do with circumstances as it is to do with choice
07:02:39 <oklopol> true.
07:02:50 <itidus21> but i want to open some leeway to change that view another time :D
07:03:35 <itidus21> i forget why i started up on this
07:03:46 <oklopol> i don't even remember where we are
07:03:49 <oklopol> oh right irc
07:03:50 <itidus21> :)
07:04:23 <itidus21> applying what i just said to real life can be ultra-controversial though
07:04:38 <oklopol> Vorpal: i have had out-of-body experiences too
07:05:00 <oklopol> i wasn't even that young
07:05:32 <itidus21> i have a set of delusions which revolve around generalizing that people are assholes
07:05:43 <itidus21> it's difficult to shake them
07:06:07 <oklopol> i seem to have an infinite supply of trust in people's goodness
07:06:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, right, and they might be lies made up by your brain, but then again there might be something more to it.
07:06:26 <Vorpal> and as far as I know there hasn't been much research on that topic
07:06:29 <oklopol> Vorpal: there isn't though.
07:06:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, how do you know?
07:07:25 <itidus21> the dream i hate the most is being back at work
07:07:27 <oklopol> everyone has had an out-of-body experience, but no one has ever, even as a party trick afaik, used that to see things beyond his actual vision.
07:08:19 <itidus21> oklopol: but this quantum stuff is set to change the world right?
07:08:35 <itidus21> ^quantum stuff being all things related to quantum mechanics
07:09:03 <oklopol> i don't care about quantum stuff, my computer is fast enough
07:09:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm I have distinct memories of that in my case. Seeing some medical supplies on top of a shelf near the ceiling that I couldn't possibly have seen at that age. Though I didn't think of verifying it when I was 4, so, who knows...
07:10:11 <oklopol> yeah, perhaps no one ever happened to verify one of these things.
07:10:39 <oklopol> there are many other ridiculous religious beliefs that there's plenty of "proof" for.
07:10:50 <itidus21> my "event" was when i had a dream about a swarm of bees
07:10:51 <oklopol> why are you so hung up on this one
07:10:53 <Vorpal> That is why there should be some actual research on the topic.
07:11:03 <zzo38> You don't care about quantum stuff, due to the speed of your computer? It is not only about speed.
07:11:04 <itidus21> the next day, at the carwash... we got hit by a swarm of bees
07:11:05 <oklopol> perhaps this was way vivider than i could ever imagine
07:11:16 <itidus21> like, several minutes worth of bees flying past
07:11:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, because you are dismissing it out of hand?
07:11:25 <itidus21> ^maybe several seconds
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07:12:47 <oklopol> Vorpal: yes, because i believe in physics, not in a universe built on top of human life stories. out of body experiences have no evolutionary purpose, and no physical explanation. they are just an interesting misinterpretation of your own memory.
07:15:42 <oklopol> as a psychological question it is of course very interesting.
07:16:15 <Vorpal> What you just said /sounds/ like you believe we basically know everything there is to know about physics at this point. We obviously don't though: we are missing an established quantum gravity theory for example. Sure there are some candidates (such as string theory) but there hasn't been any good experimental evidence of that one yet.
07:16:32 <fizzie> Given how much attention the psychological side of it has gotten -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_body#Studies_of_OBEs -- it's a bit strange they haven't happened to notice the paranormal properties of it.
07:16:43 <zzo38> Yes that is likely that they are based on misunderstanding your own memory. Possibly also remember dream sometimes, can involve like that, is one possible reason to call them precognitive.
07:17:13 <oklopol> well that's not what i believe
07:17:31 <zzo38> Yes also physics is good but incomplete and I think could never be complete but we should try anyways
07:18:12 <oklopol> how much we know about physics is completely irrelevant, it is still clear there's no mechanism to do magic simple enough that it would have evolved in humans WITH NO FUCKING PURPOSE.
07:18:14 <zzo38> It is also possible that body experience, dream, etc, may be based on multiple factors there are many things we do not know so we cannot discount all of the possibilities!
07:18:21 <itidus21> oklopol: well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong
07:18:40 <fizzie> oklopol: I have an otherwise sensible-seeming friend who's a God-believer because of a *really* lame miracle happened. (It was something on the level of thinking about something and then that thing happened the very next day.)
07:18:54 <fizzie> s/friend/acquaintance/
07:19:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm there are those that claim they can create an out-of-body experience by their own will. An obvious test would be to place some items in a locked room next to a person who claims to have this ability and ask them to describe those items. Has anyone done such a study?
07:19:16 <itidus21> like the world at large is all too happy to sell hope in the form of astrological readings
07:19:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Remote viewing" has been tested quite many times, yes.
07:19:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the result was?
07:19:57 <fizzie> It didn't work. Wouldn't you have heard about it if it did?
07:20:05 <oklopol> "well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong" do you mean science|
07:20:06 <oklopol> ?
07:20:10 <oklopol> the only study of the unknown
07:20:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, that seems conclusive enough.
07:20:12 <fizzie> Also by US government-funded research, the sensibility of which people have been miffed about, I think.
07:20:25 <itidus21> i can see through it though.. i think what happens is that once someone realises that astrology is lies.. it occurs to them "this is a good way to lie"
07:20:36 <itidus21> and so they go on propagating the lie
07:20:43 <fizzie> See the "History" chapter of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing
07:20:54 <oklopol> Vorpal: you really needed that o_O
07:20:56 <oklopol> ?
07:20:59 <fizzie> I seem to recall Randi has tested a couple, too.
07:21:10 <Vorpal> oklopol, needed what?
07:21:15 <oklopol> a test
07:21:28 <itidus21> or it could be a ponzi hierarchy of lies
07:21:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't get your point?
07:21:43 <oklopol> it's that the only reason these things are tested is that stupid people would finally shut up.
07:21:58 <itidus21> believing that the person with more mysterious views than yours holds the secret
07:22:05 <oklopol> wow my tolerance of religion is low today
07:22:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, I would have needed a test to believe it was true as well.
07:22:55 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
07:22:58 <pikhq_> Vorpal: One needn't understand physics perfectly to believe the following: Since the beginning, not one unusual thing has happened. :)
07:23:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hah :)
07:23:21 <kmc> some people can't be convinced by any amount of evidence
07:23:21 <zzo38> To do science properly, you also have to properly control the experiments too. There is some scholarly reports about quantum psychic experiment too. Assuming (for the argument) that this experiment is done correctly, I would think it involves relativity too as well as the relation between quantum and relativity.
07:23:52 <zzo38> And what do you consider "unusual"?
07:24:02 <oklopol> Vorpal: of course you would need a test for that, it would be a million times more surprising than the earth suddenly exploding.
07:24:08 <itidus21> i find it extraordinarily difficult to explain just what it is i believe
07:24:14 <Vorpal> kmc, I believe you refer to fundamentalists.
07:24:48 <itidus21> i believe that, a point of view can be a thing of beauty
07:25:10 <itidus21> a thing to not be dismissed
07:25:30 <itidus21> an artifact of the human mind, just as the footprint is an artifact of the foot
07:25:50 <Vorpal> Of course fundamentalism happens on all sides. Just look at how hard it was to convince geologists about plate tectonics back when that was the new theory.
07:26:14 <zzo38> How likely is it for the Earth to explode? Scientific evidence shows many things such as physics, and that psychics are fake and that the Sun is really large and so on. Science is the best we have, but, science is not perfect!! Mathematics is perfect!
07:26:24 <oklopol> !
07:26:31 <itidus21> that in and of itself, the actuality of a point of view existing in a consciousness
07:26:35 <pikhq_> itidus21: Some points of view do not correspond to the state of reality, as far as we can tell what it is. This, IMO, is a problem.
07:26:53 <oklopol> zzo38: it's very likely.
07:26:53 <itidus21> but why does it have to correspond? >:)
07:27:12 <itidus21> suppose we alleviate the constraint that it has to correspond
07:27:17 <oklopol> gtg
07:27:38 <itidus21> with this line of thought you gain insight into my insanity
07:27:39 <pikhq_> itidus21: If it does not correspond, then your actions have very *unintended* consequences.
07:27:47 <zzo38> Sometimes there can be multiple points of view that still work, and sometimes you cannot really say one is correct or incorrect, and in some cases it isn't, so that it is.
07:27:58 <pikhq_> People are bad enough decision makers without the crippling that is points of view that don't work.
07:28:23 <itidus21> what if one ceases to make decisions while maintaining a view which doesn't correspond with reality?
07:28:37 <pikhq_> Then I shall call you a rock.
07:28:39 <zzo38> Sometimes some point of view fail to work.
07:28:48 <zzo38> Sometimes some point of view is simply wrong.
07:29:15 <itidus21> pikhq_: well yeah.. an oracle is needed at such times
07:29:19 <itidus21> :-P
07:29:27 <zzo38> Sometimes it is really a matter of opinion or a matter of what else corresponds with your frame of reference.
07:29:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, that is a decision you just made (to not make any further decision). So in order to not make decisions while maintaining that point of view you have to decide to maintain that point of view after you decided to stop making decisions which sounds like a contradiction to me.
07:30:23 <pikhq_> True, there is also the fact that deciding to not make decisions is itself a decision.
07:30:36 <itidus21> in this line of thought, sometimes i don't know whether it is best to say "hi" or "hey" or "hello"
07:30:37 <Vorpal> pikhq_, which is what I just said
07:30:44 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I was merely agreeing.
07:30:47 <Vorpal> ah right
07:31:02 <Vorpal> I thought perhaps my wording was confusing. (I think it was actually)
07:31:05 <itidus21> so one can consult an oracle to make such a decision
07:32:31 <itidus21> pikhq_: but honestly, i am trying to learn to think properly
07:33:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I guess the situation can be resolved by deciding to maintain that view /and/ deciding to stop making further decisions at the same time, possibly on the lines of "I will maintain view X and stop making decisions after a point 1 minute into the future"
07:33:05 <itidus21> but i don't want to give up my creative zest either.. best of both worlds is ideal
07:33:06 <zzo38> "Properly"?
07:33:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I think we might call such a person a 'Boddhisatva'.
07:33:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, now you lost me
07:34:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Mostly irrelevant joke that might not actually make sense.
07:34:13 <Vorpal> yeah how is that Buddhist terminology related to this?
07:34:28 <pikhq_> zzo38: Presumably 'in a way that produces points of view that correspond to reality as best as can be'
07:34:31 <itidus21> Vorpal: well this is straying into buddhist territory probably
07:34:51 <zzo38> pikhq_: OK
07:35:48 <Vorpal> At least that religion is one of the less insane ones. I don't know of any other religion that encourages critical thinking for a start.
07:35:49 <itidus21> in any case, it's better to base decisions on logic rather than on biases :D
07:35:52 <pikhq_> Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire.
07:36:10 <itidus21> ok well not logic
07:36:16 <itidus21> uh
07:36:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, yeah. Not sure how that relates to stopping making decisions still.
07:36:19 <zzo38> Buddhism is one kind of religion and is not such bad ideas.
07:36:31 <zzo38> Critical thinking is important regardless, though.
07:36:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: See, didn't make much sense.
07:36:43 <Vorpal> right
07:36:53 <itidus21> it purports to support critical thinking, but that can also catch people with their guard down
07:37:22 <Vorpal> true
07:37:34 <itidus21> religions are more or less only as good as the humans who represent them
07:37:43 <Vorpal> but then on the other hand, not advocating critical thinking is worse.
07:38:02 <zzo38> No! They are as good as they are.
07:38:05 <Vorpal> so there is no good solution to the issue you mentioned, that I can think of at least.
07:38:32 <zzo38> Which may be better or worse than representatives depending on the philosophy.
07:44:13 <itidus21> its been too long since i had a mentor of any sort
07:44:53 <itidus21> i guess it means i have to start studying things on my own
07:45:02 <itidus21> that is what it means
07:45:40 <zzo38> Yes you should learn to study things by your own
07:45:56 <itidus21> i guess on freenode, everyone is a mentor in a way
07:47:19 <zzo38> Well, we try
07:48:35 <itidus21> i don't know exactly what it means that word.. but i find that in my chat career i have encountered people obviously brimming with knowledge
07:49:11 <zzo38> I also don't know completely
07:49:13 <itidus21> and i think the more people you meet like that the more you start to realize that others may well be smarter than you... or a lot smarter than you
07:49:24 <zzo38> Which is why we must learn (including myself)
07:49:34 <itidus21> or kicking you around like a football smarter than you
07:50:17 <zzo38> Yes there are other people, smarter, at different thing, than other people, many people they can understand these things better than I can but I learn and I think of it myself so sometimes can think of the thing that the other people have missed, too
07:50:54 <zzo38> Especially mathematics, you can think of things independently from the others, and I do too.
07:51:27 <zzo38> I like category theory too.
07:51:32 <itidus21> i think there is a fallacy that everyones knowledge equals out.
07:52:14 <itidus21> but infact those who apply themselves to learning or experiencing, or have more opportunities to do so, are sure to have richer knowledges
07:52:46 <itidus21> but there is something to be said for the way an unlearned person can get on with his day without being weighed down by analysis
07:52:51 <zzo38> Yes that is the case, I believe you.
07:53:12 <zzo38> I am not the smartest person in the world.
07:54:39 <itidus21> i do think there is still a case for the everyone is equally wise in some unique way
07:54:47 <itidus21> but it's not a very strong case
07:55:02 <olsner> I wonder what would happen if zzo38 was the smartest person in the world
07:55:44 <zzo38> Yes there is both cases both ways
07:55:55 <zzo38> But it depends
07:56:05 <itidus21> yesterday when my net was down for a few hours, i went into windows control panel and changed to an extra large mouse pointer and mouse trails
07:56:10 <Vorpal> olsner, maybe he is and we just don't recognize it due to everyone else being too stupid?
07:56:10 <itidus21> now i think it looks awesome
07:56:17 <itidus21> i don't want to turn it off
07:56:57 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe
07:57:45 <olsner> zzo38: Vorpal says that you are mistaken, you *are* the smartest person in the world. Start acting like it :)
07:58:06 <Vorpal> :D
07:58:26 <zzo38> olsner: I think you are wrong because if I am the smartest person in the world then why do you think I am mistaken?
07:58:26 <olsner> then again, it might be smart to be modest and not acknowledge that you are the smartest person in the world
07:58:46 <pikhq_> Dunning-Kruger effect says the smartest man in the world is unconvinced of that.
07:58:55 <olsner> zzo38: maybe you're just not smart enough to figure out that you are the smartest person in the world?
07:59:02 <zzo38> Many things I don't know that is why I am asking these kind of questions.
07:59:43 <pikhq_> (everyone focuses on the bit that people who know jack overestimate their abilities, nobody remembers that people who are actually experts underestimate *their* abilities)
08:00:18 <zzo38> I suppose that is a possibility too.
08:00:40 <itidus21> pikhq_: perhaps this is due to people rarely having competitions of their abilities
08:00:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I wonder what that says about Stephen Wolfram...
08:01:40 <itidus21> he is bald.. i suspect i will eventually be bald
08:01:47 <itidus21> (looking on wikipedia)
08:04:58 <itidus21> one thing that i don't like much about theory is the way that theory is so self-contained
08:05:10 <Vorpal> huh?
08:05:22 <itidus21> well white papers lead to more white papers
08:05:26 <olsner> pikhq_: looks like that's not part of dunning-kruger as described on wikipedia, that sounds more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
08:05:29 <itidus21> calculations lead to more calculations
08:05:29 <zzo38> I think about mathematics including category theory, I read thing, I try working out things on paper and by computer, and I will ask a question too. Mathematics is of interest to me. Do you like mathematics?
08:05:36 <pikhq_> olsner: Curse my memory.
08:05:42 <pikhq_> Actually, don't.
08:05:57 <pikhq_> It's cursed enough, being contained in unreliable thinking-meats.
08:06:36 <itidus21> i guess i mean theory is a closed system.. but i don't know what closed truely means
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08:11:23 <zzo38> .
08:11:24 <itidus21> so, to me, the level of geek(which is a good thing) involved in some work or hobby depends on how far removed it is from utilitarianism and entertainment
08:11:32 <oerjan> `addquote <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
08:11:41 <HackEgo> 847) <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
08:12:20 <itidus21> i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer
08:13:25 <itidus21> but especially the part that from the geeks point of view it is not asceticism at all, and that the alternative is just silly
08:15:05 <itidus21> i speak of people who prefer a MUD to a WoW, a command line to a GUI
08:15:47 <itidus21> people who prefer emacs and vim over microsoft word and open office
08:17:16 <itidus21> i am simply unable to see things that way
08:17:24 <zzo38> At least to me and many other people, yes, I prefer vi and TeX over Microsoft Word, prefer MUD to WoW and command-line to GUI mostly.
08:17:37 <itidus21> this isn't meant as offense..
08:18:04 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire. <-- _and_ chosen not to join nirvana yet in other to help others.
08:18:25 <zzo38> OK
08:18:58 <oerjan> otherwise they're just a general enlightened person, or arahant.
08:19:45 <zzo38> oerjan: At least you appear to understand that better than I do, as far as I can tell.
08:19:59 <itidus21> and also.. prefer to use trigonometry to prove things about topology rather than use them to aim bullets in a video game
08:21:53 <zzo38> OK
08:22:00 <itidus21> :-D
08:22:47 <zzo38> oerjan: I did look it up I can see how to make exponents of categories. But is it possible to use that to make a monad from monads on the base and exponent?
08:22:48 * oerjan actually looks this up and sees it's not as simple
08:23:05 <oerjan> um the boddhisattva stuff that is
08:23:13 <oerjan> zzo38: no idea
08:23:53 <itidus21> the difficulty probably begins in the lack of a precise meaning of nirvana
08:23:57 <itidus21> the wise don't care
08:24:16 <itidus21> the people like me who care about things like graphics and guis
08:24:26 <itidus21> always wanna ask "what is nirvana?"
08:25:22 <itidus21> and they want to extrapolate buddhism from a definition of nirvana, which is simply not possible
08:25:31 <Vorpal> <itidus21> i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer <-- screw gamepads, I want joysticks
08:26:06 <zzo38> oerjan: At least I do know how to make the monad from monads on the categories when you make the sum and product, without looking it up on Wikipedia, partially due to your suggestions too but of course I have to think of it by myself too
08:26:54 <zzo38> I also do not know if mathematicians have any other names for what I have called Finalize monad and Initialize comonad.
08:28:03 <oerjan> zzo38: on a hunch, since X^2 ~ X x X, it seems like you might want a monad on X in X^Y; although maybe you need another structure on Y, perhaps a comonad if you think of the analogy to haskell Y -> X
08:28:28 <itidus21> religions aren't really pure..
08:28:51 <itidus21> they're more actual
08:29:19 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, yes. They are not really pure. John Dee wanted to make it more pure, I think.
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08:30:28 <itidus21> there is no "normal" religious person
08:30:40 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes
08:31:01 <itidus21> you can't make general statements about them :P
08:31:06 <zzo38> Yes.
08:31:11 <itidus21> but if you could, it would be fascism
08:32:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you know of other mathematical names for Finalize monad and Initialize comonad? If there aren't any, then we should make up the mathematical notation for them.
08:32:27 <itidus21> the texts are always open to multiple interpretations.
08:33:00 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know much of anything about monads outside Set (and Hask)
08:33:11 <itidus21> one can argue the text was authored by divine inspiration, in which case the human who writes it may not know the correct form of interpretation
08:33:37 <oerjan> zzo38: but they're too simple not to be well known.
08:33:39 <itidus21> or, if the human does claim to know the correct interpretation, well all such humans have long passed
08:33:49 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes that is the case (that the texts are always open to multiple interpretations). That may even be deliberate by their authors or whatever, possibly, at least sometimes.
08:34:24 <itidus21> and... no matter how many iterations a conversation has.. theres no guarantee of only having one interpretation
08:34:35 <oerjan> zzo38: Finalize was the monad where the functor sends everything to a terminal object, right?
08:35:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes they are simple so I would think they would be well known and someone would have invented a mathematical notation for them by now, but we cannot be completely sure. And, yes, Finalize is the monad where the endofunctor sends everything to a final object. (If there is more than one final object, there is a Finalize monad for each one)
08:35:51 <itidus21> this interpretation stuff also plagues philosophy
08:36:09 <itidus21> plagues could be positively replaced with inspires
08:38:15 <zzo38> (And then, Initialize comonad is simply the dual of the Finalize monad; i.e. the endofunctor sends everything to the initial object.)
08:41:26 <itidus21> if apples are plentiful and provide sustinance, then it is not necessary to analyze the apple
08:42:31 <zzo38> oerjan: Would you know from these now?
08:42:32 <itidus21> i think that what probably happens is that while searching for answers to some other problem, the apple gets analyzed so it can be searched
08:43:26 <oerjan> isn't this called the Const monad in haskell...
08:44:03 <oerjan> or is it Proxy
08:44:15 <itidus21> in the same way i think colonization works
08:44:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Also, how useful are these monad and comonads? Yes it is Finalize the same as Proxy
08:44:30 <itidus21> people on an island don't need to be colonized
08:44:56 <itidus21> but some external force is searching for resources
08:45:01 <zzo38> But I mean not only Haskell, but mathematics in general.
08:45:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know. i have never read in depth about examples of monads in general category theory
08:46:08 <oerjan> i know they all come from adjunctions.
08:46:21 <zzo38> Yes I read that on Wikipedia too
08:55:25 <oerjan> and wikipedia doesn't seem to have any example list
08:56:16 <oerjan> although i would guess you could find the adjunction easily... the other category is presumably the trivial one with one object and its identity morphism only
08:56:51 <oerjan> so L maps to that category, and R maps back to a final object in the original one
08:57:36 <oerjan> well that's _one_ adjunction, i have a hunch there's essentially only one for this monad
08:59:14 <oerjan> or wait, maybe you can get others by using any category with a final object
08:59:28 <oerjan> or initial, not sure which way that would go
09:06:52 <oerjan> r.i.p. lonesome george
09:07:47 <zzo38> ?
09:08:01 <oerjan> the galapagos turtle
09:08:10 <oerjan> last of his species
09:09:05 <kmc> subspecies
09:19:39 <zzo38> Now I have some idea of a semigroupoid where, for any two objects X and Y, if there is at least one morphism from X to Y, then there are no morphisms from Y to X. Nothing can be both this and a category except for the empty category.
09:20:08 <zzo38> What is it called?
09:20:18 <oerjan> semigroupoid, what's that again
09:20:38 <zzo38> Category without identity
09:20:56 <oerjan> oh, so this should hold even when X = Y?
09:21:24 <zzo38> Yes, that is why it is never a category except empty category.
09:21:53 <oerjan> any partial order gives one just by removing the identities, i think
09:22:47 <zzo38> Any strict partial order gives one, I think
09:22:54 <zzo38> I had the idea to call this "anticategory"
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10:51:18 <kmc> i tried to make my polyglot an AVR program also
10:51:28 <kmc> but it seems all interesting instructions on AVR have the high bit set
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10:59:21 <AnotherTest> hello
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11:14:33 <shachaf> kmc: That's ridiculous!
11:14:42 <shachaf> If I made an instruction set, I'd only use the lower 7 bits.
11:15:09 <shachaf> I'd leave the upper half for individual countries to standardize.
11:18:11 <kmc> makes sense
11:18:57 <kmc> i'd like to see an instruction set using UTF-8
11:19:37 <kmc> would be pretty nice really
11:20:39 <ion> heh
11:21:16 <ion> shachaf: haha
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11:35:03 <fizzie> z/Architecture instruction set has instructions for converting to/from UTF-8 (with UTF-16 or Unicode codepoints at the other end); does that count as "an instruction set using UTF-8"?
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11:39:04 <kmc> heh
11:39:17 <kmc> what do you mean by "Unicode codepoints"? a native machine integer with the codepoint value?
11:39:44 <fizzie> That's what I think, yes. The instruction listing I Googled was somewhat terse.
11:40:09 <Gregor> I don't consider an instruction set to "use" UTF-8 unless it can do things like strlen, strwidth, indexofnthcharacter with UTF-8 strings.
11:40:18 <Gregor> Not that any instruction set SHOULD do those things.
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11:40:26 <shachaf> Gregor: I think kmc meant the actual instructions were encoded with UTF-8.
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11:40:43 <shachaf> E.g. 110xxxxx 10xxxxxx
11:41:02 <Gregor> Oh, that's... bizarre X-D
11:41:08 <Gregor> Would be nice for debugging I suppose.
11:41:36 <shachaf> What, because it would be self-synchronizing?
11:42:13 <Gregor> Yeah, don't need some complexicon of instruction formats like x86, and not as restrictive as RISC *shrugs*
11:42:38 <shachaf> MORE LIKE RISCtrictive !!
11:42:39 <kmc> it would also prevent jumping into the middle of an instruction
11:42:46 <kmc> without forcing a fixed-size encoding
11:43:06 <Gregor> Mmm, indeed, and that's not even debugging!
11:43:11 <Gregor> Well, per se
11:43:36 <shachaf> kmc: Do any of the adjustable big/little endian architectures also adjust instructions' endianness?
11:43:45 <kmc> variable length encoding is nice because some instructions are more common than others
11:43:47 * shachaf imagines each page starting with a BOM.
11:43:53 <kmc> -_-
11:44:07 <shachaf> kmc: That's why I store my instructions gzipped in memory!
11:44:12 <kmc> i think some variants of PPC actually have a pagetable bit for endianness
11:44:29 <Gregor> That's... horrifying.
11:46:09 <fizzie> I could imagine x86 having a segment descriptor field for that. I mean, they already have a 16/32 bit in.
11:47:11 <shachaf> UTF-8 is big-endian, I guess?
11:48:15 <fizzie> More significant bits come in the earlier bytes, yes.
11:48:33 <shachaf> So I guess we need to come up with UTF-8-LE, for completeness.
11:49:12 <fizzie> Yes, and get that thing popular. Too long have the UTF-8 folks ridiculed UTF-16 users for endianness problems.
11:52:19 <shachaf> Hmm, and we'd need our own BOM.
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12:04:06 <fizzie> Well, let's see. If you put the regular BOM U+FFEF into regular UTF-8, that's 1110|1111 10|111111 10|101111 (EFBFAF); interpreted as bizarro-UTF-8 that would recompose back to U+BFFF; that's some random Hangul 뿿. Okay, maybe it's not such a good BOM, yes.
12:08:01 <shachaf> fizzie: It's FEFF/FFFE
12:09:12 <shachaf> efbbbf
12:09:37 <shachaf> Or something.
12:12:24 <fizzie> But U+FEFF is zero-width no-break space.
12:14:24 <shachaf> That's when it's not at the beginning.
12:14:43 <fizzie> I see.
12:15:02 <fizzie> I must've misread FEFF as FFEF.
12:21:25 <fizzie> Well, in that case, U+FEFF => regular-UTF8 1110|1111 10|111011 10|111111 (efbbbf), and then reinterpreted as weirdo-UTF8 gives U+FFBF which is not allocated (though it's in the middle of halfwidth Hangul letters). Correspondingly, U+FEFF in weirdo-UTF8 would be 1110|1111 10|101111 10|111111 and interpreted as regular UTF-8 that's U+FBFF, which is... ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH MEDIAL FORM. Aw, I ...
12:21:31 <fizzie> ... was hoping the usual U+FEFF, encoded in either way, would turn into something unused when read the wrong way.
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12:30:30 <Sgeo> Would it be fair to say that Io is like a higher-level Picolisp, in terms of amount of introspection?
12:30:56 <Sgeo> (Erm, well, "higher-level" not really in that terms but in terms of being a higher-level language in general)
12:33:38 <Vorpal> so I just got my new phone
12:33:48 <Vorpal> I like it
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12:44:21 <fizzie> Is it an Android device, you enemy of freedom?
12:47:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, because modern nokia sucks
12:47:32 <Vorpal> sadly
12:47:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a Samsung Galaxy S3
12:48:21 <fizzie> Yes, well, all Nokia phones are also enemies of freedom, that's not the question.
12:48:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there a phone that isn't an enemy of freedom?
12:49:03 <nortti> openmoko neo freerunner
12:49:09 <Vorpal> ah true
12:49:17 <Vorpal> nortti, that doesn't have a quad core CPU though
12:49:21 <Vorpal> this phone does
12:49:47 <fizzie> Openmoko does get pretty close.
12:49:52 <Vorpal> hm unlike nexus it seems google earth is not preinstalled here
12:49:58 <Vorpal> I wonder why
12:51:00 <Vorpal> there we go
12:52:08 <Vorpal> the GPS seems to get a fix indoors in a matter of seconds (and I turned off the option to use WLAN when testing that)
12:52:13 <kmc> yeah openmoko
12:52:20 <kmc> cause i want a phone the size of a car battery, that doesn't actually work
12:52:21 <fizzie> It's not like even Freerunner has user-pokeable GSM parts inside.
12:52:36 <kmc> but it's free!!!!!!!!111
12:52:56 <Vorpal> heh
12:53:22 <fizzie> Also they had a binary-blob GPS driver too at some point, unless I misremember. That might've been fixed before the FreeRunner days.
12:54:00 <fizzie> You've got some pretty small car batteries in wherever-you-are, though.
12:54:07 <Vorpal> I haven't ordered a memory card for it yet, because apparently a 64 GB Class 10 MicroSD has only just been released. So it isn't available in web stores in Sweden until the middle of next month
12:54:56 <Vorpal> btw the unlock screen is not the usual android 4 "drag a circle near the bottom of the screen. It is some fancy "nature-inspired" water ripple thingy
12:55:22 <Vorpal> hm how do I set a single colour bg in android...
12:56:01 <fizzie> I seem to recall Stallman did say that Android was a tiny tiny bit less bad than Apple/Microsoft products. But not by much.
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12:56:23 <fizzie> He doesn't recommend phones anyway.
12:56:46 <fizzie> Here's a transcript from a GPLv3 conference:
12:56:48 <fizzie> "[a mobile phone rings]
12:56:49 <fizzie> If you are carrying a portable surveillance and tracking device, please turn it off. They have already tracked you here. They already know that you are listening to me, so there is no need for you to keep telling them that you are still here. And if they want to listen to what I am saying, we're going to publish the video recording anyway. They don't need to turn on your portable surveillance ...
12:56:52 <Vorpal> heh. I need a phone though
12:56:54 <Gregor> My impression from a talk by Stallman was that there exists some subset of Android that is acceptable, and people in FSF use phones that adhere to that subset, but that most commercial phones are a TRAP.
12:56:55 <fizzie> ... device to do it."
12:57:57 <fizzie> "I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices." -- "RMS lifestyle"
12:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The magazine for the morally conscious programmer.
12:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Articles include: "Interviews: the optimal time to clean one's toenails?"
12:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Houses: who needs them?"
12:59:47 <kmc> RMS has at various times lived in a house
12:59:55 <kmc> in fact I'm told he lived a couple houses down from where I live now
13:00:24 <fizzie> "And by the way, these portable tracking devices emit signals for tracking purposes even when they are apparently switched off; the only way to stop them is to take out all the batteries."
13:00:37 <fizzie> That's right, THEY are always watching.
13:01:15 <Gregor> There is no more dangerous delusion than the delusion that somebody cares.
13:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sure The Man is terribly interested in what Stallman is up to.
13:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, although usually they're just watching the inside of your pocket.
13:07:59 <fizzie> All in all, at least it's not an iDevice. To quote,
13:08:15 <fizzie> "Steve Jobs, the pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool, designed to sever fools from their freedom, has died. -- But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing."
13:08:36 <fizzie> Putting the "fun" back to "funeral", he is.
13:09:44 <kmc> quoting RMS is *always* trolling by proxy
13:10:00 <fizzie> I sneakily cut off the required-disclaimer about how even Jobs didn't deserve to die.
13:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> As before, I don't think quoting stupid things is trolling by proxy
13:10:21 <fizzie> (That's why the latter sentence starts with "but".)
13:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Frankly I'm astonished RMS was able to muster any kind of praise for Android.
13:13:11 <Gregor> Android is non-GNU/Linux ZOMG ^^
13:13:56 <fizzie> If you don't mind some quote-mining and cut-at-comma-ing, RMS says: "Android is a major step towards an ethical, user-controlled, free-software portable phone, --"
13:14:10 <fizzie> (The "--" is "but there is a long way to go.")
13:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably that long way to go is making everything on it GPL.
13:16:05 <fizzie> Yes, the taint of the dirty Apache license is one problem.
13:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> What's another?
13:18:09 <kmc> Gregor: they're fine with non-GNU projects which adhere to their philosophy...
13:18:32 <fizzie> Not releasing the sources for Android 3.0, 3.1; having binary firmware that has enough power to be malicious; manufactures locking things down.
13:18:37 <fizzie> Those are some others.
13:18:45 <Vorpal> anyone has any idea how to import vCalendar files into android...
13:18:55 <Vorpal> I dumped them from my nokia
13:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, does anyone outside GNU adhere to their philosophy?
13:19:15 <fizzie> "The phone network firmware comes pre-installed. If all it did was sit there and run, we could regard it as equivalent to a circuit. When we insist that the software in a computing device must be free, we can overlook pre-installed firmware that will never be upgraded, because it makes no difference to the user that it's a program rather than a circuit.
13:19:20 <fizzie> Unfortunately, in this case it would be a malicious circuit. Malicious features are unacceptable no matter how they are implemented.
13:19:23 <fizzie> On most Android phones, this firmware has so much control that it could turn the product into a listening device. On some, it controls the microphone. On some, it can take full control of the main computer, through shared memory, and can thus override or replace whatever free software you have installed. With some models it is possible to exercise remote control of this firmware, and thus of ...
13:19:29 <fizzie> ... the phone's computer, through the phone radio network."
13:20:01 <fizzie> Also since it can be upgraded, it must be open.
13:20:18 <fizzie> (FreeRunner, I think, also fails this particular test.)
13:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, does he consider the circuit that actually controls the microphone 'malicious'?
13:21:30 <fizzie> Well, the "circuitry-equivalent firmware".
13:21:40 <fizzie> "Putting these points together, we can tolerate non-free phone network firmware provided new versions of it won't be loaded, it can't take control of the main computer, and it can only communicate when and as the free operating system chooses to let it communicate. In other words, it has to be equivalent to circuitry, and that circuitry must not be malicious. There is no obstacle to building ...
13:21:46 <fizzie> ... an Android phone which has these characteristics, but we don't know of any."
13:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but when he's complaining that it being *possible* for it to turn the phone into a listening device then I don't see how he can tolerate the concept of a phone at all.
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13:25:21 <Sgeo_> Aren't there modifyable circuits?
13:25:40 <Sgeo_> And as such, would the circuitry be allowed to be non-free in such a case?
13:27:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, y'see, the phone hardware must be such that any firmware blob can't possibly be malicious. (I'm not sure how it would be possible to do that for the GSM modem side, since it kind of has to be responsible for sending the contents of your phone call to the network, and could therefore be e.g. broadcasting that to Them too.)
13:27:13 <neutrino2000> you cannot patent physical circuits, you can also not patent schematics
13:27:20 <neutrino2000> you can have copyright of schematic diagrams
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13:40:12 <pikhq_> fizzie: You should note that Stallman does not own a phone currently.
13:40:31 <fizzie> Well, that's for sure.
13:41:34 <kmc> Sgeo_: what do you mean by "modifyable circuits"
13:43:02 <kmc> neutrino2000: really, you can't patent a circuit?
13:43:24 <kmc> i thought the archtypal original purpose of patents was to patent a mechanical machine
13:43:28 <kmc> patenting a circuit seems very similar
13:44:44 <pikhq_> kmc: Strictly speaking, you don't patent a specific machine but rather a method of functioning *of* a machine. Otherwise you could get around a patent by reading a patent and designing a similar machine. ;)
13:44:59 <neutrino2000> yeah, it's well known, that's why people e.g. pot circuits in resin
13:45:13 <kmc> if it is well known perhaps you could furnish a link for me
13:45:25 <kmc> there are valid reasons why someone would go for trade secret over patent, even if something is patentable
13:45:26 <neutrino2000> i would but i am working
13:45:29 <kmc> ok then
13:45:56 <pikhq_> I'd help with citations, but I'm not *100%* sure that's the case, and besides which don't have any.
13:46:36 <kmc> if you patent something, your competitors find out how it works
13:46:49 <kmc> even if they are disallowed from producing the same thing, that information might help them in other ways
13:47:28 <AnotherTest> if you go for a trade secret, someone might (re)discover it and patent it
13:47:54 <neutrino2000> unless you then say you had prior art so they can't patent it
13:48:02 <pikhq_> neutrino2000: In theory.
13:48:18 <pikhq_> In practice, a *prior patent* doesn't necessarily mean you don't get a patent.
13:48:36 <pikhq_> Hence, for example, the double patents on LZW.
13:48:48 <kmc> or they might just infringe your patent and fight you in court
13:49:01 <kmc> so if your competitors have better lawyers than reverse engineers, you should go for secrecy :)
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13:51:29 <fizzie> "Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title." That's a citation. Admittedly, it's kinda vague.
13:52:41 <AnotherTest> "subject to the conditions and requirements of this title"; indeed
13:52:51 <fizzie> Those are kinda long to quote.
13:52:58 <AnotherTest> Thought so.
13:53:18 <fizzie> There's the non-obviousness requirement, for example.
13:53:48 <fizzie> It mustn't be obvious to the mythical "person having ordinary skill in the art".
13:54:18 <AnotherTest> Do they provide a definition of "ordinary skill"?
13:54:26 <kmc> fizzie: there are none of those in programming, you know!
13:54:37 <kmc> it's all idiot code monkeys and ninja rockstar hackers
13:54:46 <kmc> nobody has ordinary skill ;)
13:55:59 <fizzie> No. Though it continues with a very confusingly worded exception on "biotechnological processes".
13:56:17 <fizzie> "-- a biotechnological process using or resulting in a composition of matter that is novel under section 102 and nonobvious under subsection (a) of this section shall be considered nonobvious if [long list]"
13:56:33 <fizzie> They do define what a "biotechnological process" is.
13:57:07 <AnotherTest> Is that like your brains thinking about technology?
13:57:28 <AnotherTest> It does sound like that.
13:57:45 <fizzie> No, it's: "(A) a process of genetically altering or otherwise inducing a single- or multi-celled organism to- (i) express an exogenous nucleotide sequence, (ii) inhibit, eliminate, augment, or alter expression of an endogenous nucleotide sequence, or (iii) express a specific physiological characteristic not naturally associated with said organism; (B) cell fusion procedures yielding a cell ...
13:57:51 <fizzie> ... line that expresses a specific protein, such as a monoclonal antibody; and (C) a method of using a product produced by a process defined by subparagraph (A) or (B), or a combination of subparagraphs (A) and (B)."
13:58:39 <AnotherTest> Oh so it has to be related to medical technology.
13:58:57 <AnotherTest> (medical, in a wide sense)
13:59:19 <AnotherTest> I like §1(A)
13:59:25 <Sgeo_> kmc, those.... thingies that you can modify
13:59:37 <Sgeo_> FPGA?
13:59:50 <Sgeo_> Yeah, I think so
14:00:09 <kmc> FPGA have firmware basically
14:00:27 <kmc> the "gates" in a FPGA are actually look-up tables programmed by some RAM which is loaded at boot (often from flash, either on-chip or off-chip)
14:01:33 <fizzie> I would believe it again counts as circuitry as long as you don't upgrade the firmware ever. (If it's a separate system that keeps reconfiguring the FPGA from time to time, I think that could also still be non-free as long as it's not touched ever and functions as a black box.)
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15:36:33 <Vorpal> strange setting under sync options on the phone: Under the google account there is a checkbox named "sync internet", it is in the list of stuff like "sync contacts", "sync email" and so on
15:36:37 <Vorpal> gmail*
15:37:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
15:37:12 <Vorpal> presumably it creates a local copy of the internet
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15:39:16 <Vorpal> bbiab
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15:54:46 <fizzie> Bookmarks, maybe?
15:55:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm possibly
15:59:02 <olsner> Vorpal: don't sync the internet, it will delete everything on the internet and upload the stuff that is on your phone right now
15:59:10 <Vorpal> olsner, yay!
15:59:33 <Vorpal> huh, they removed the debug option from earlier android versions that allowed you to disable the screen timeout while usb was attached
15:59:40 <Vorpal> that is kind of annoying
16:03:49 <ion> An Emacs user http://horatio.naurunappula.com/screen/b1/83/b1835a1cc0efa869/0/933709.jpg
16:05:42 <olsner> ion: another emacs user: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
16:06:10 <olsner> all emacs users are foot-crud eaters
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16:12:09 <olsner> foot-quiche?
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16:17:23 <Taneb> Hello
16:19:13 <olsner> I wonder if I should stay off IRC for an entire week and see what I end up doing after I get too bored to do nothing
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16:51:43 <Taneb> Embarrassed myself a tad today at a University open day when I corrected the lecturer's Python
16:53:42 <kmc> holy shit, a talking snake!
17:02:25 <ion> Oh, a snake! Oh, it’s a snake!
17:03:04 <olsner> badger badger badger
17:03:16 <kmc> > text . concat $ replicate 11 "badger "
17:03:18 <lambdabot> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:03:29 <olsner> > fix ("badger "++)
17:03:31 <lambdabot> "badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badg...
17:05:21 <nortti> ^ul ((badger)S:^):^
17:05:45 <nortti> !langs
17:05:53 <kmc> !bf_txtgen badger
17:05:57 <EgoBot> ​65 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.-.+++.+++.--.+++++++++++++.>. [81]
17:06:02 <nortti> !help
17:06:02 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:06:11 <nortti> !help languages
17:06:11 <EgoBot> ​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:06:31 <kmc> haskell is esoteric but cxx isn't?
17:06:39 <nortti> !underload ((badger)S:^):^
17:06:41 <EgoBot> badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerb
17:06:44 <nortti> !underload ((badger )S:^):^
17:06:45 <EgoBot> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:07:03 <kmc> that's a lot of badgers
17:07:11 <olsner> the one without whitespace seemed a bit more poignant
17:07:38 <kmc> _EgoBot's poignant guide to underload
17:08:00 <olsner> _underload's poignant guide to badger
17:08:29 <kmc> honeybadger don't care
17:08:50 <olsner> from 0 to badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadger in 24h
17:09:07 <kmc> teach yourself to badger in 24 hours for dummies
17:09:51 <olsner> only one badger in 24h? it'll take months to get to a reasonable number of badger
17:10:44 <kmc> B'Ger
17:12:21 <ion> `run printf '\n' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /'
17:12:31 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:14:19 <olsner> echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/^/badger /' -e 'ta'
17:15:30 <olsner> note: kill that before it runs you out of RAM
17:15:45 <olsner> it's pretty slow though
17:15:48 <kmc> should i lern2sed?
17:16:06 <nortti> yes
17:16:38 <olsner> funnier version: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'ta'
17:17:36 <olsner> with printing: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'p;ta'
17:21:39 <olsner> wee bit shorter: echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/.\?/badger /g' -e 'p;ta'
17:41:06 <Vorpal> why do my normal headphones work to play FM radio on my new phone? On my old it required nokia's own headset, and the connector was longer than usual. How strange...
17:41:42 <Vorpal> (and I checked, it needs some headphones connected for the radio to work)
17:42:31 <olsner> I think it's because the old one had artificial limitations
17:42:48 <olsner> pretty sure they all work on the same principle, using the headphones as the antenna
17:43:00 <Vorpal> ah
17:43:14 <Vorpal> olsner, I thought it had an extra wire in it that worked as an antenna
17:43:30 <Vorpal> anyway wouldn't there be issues with the length of the wire?
17:44:17 <olsner> I would guess that it works because FM happens to be at a frequency where it doesn't matter much how the antenna looks
17:44:27 <Vorpal> fair enough
17:46:26 <Vorpal> now to figure out how to switch search engine to a custom one...
17:47:32 <olsner> why would they allow you to do that?
17:48:05 <Vorpal> olsner, well they do allow you to switch between a few (it is Android, not iOS!) but yeah I have to figure out how to switch to duckduckgo
17:48:56 <olsner> does android have a specific web-search thingy? I usually just open mini and search
17:49:32 <Vorpal> mini?
17:49:40 <olsner> *opera mini
17:49:52 <Vorpal> oh you have a non-smart phone
17:49:54 <Vorpal> right
17:50:15 <olsner> no, it's a smart phone, it has the android and everything
17:50:19 <Vorpal> anyway I can add a widget for duckduckgo from google play (previously called android market)
17:51:14 <Vorpal> the issue is I want it in the browser, I can just select google, bing and yahoo
17:51:54 <Vorpal> and chrome for android beta is just as bad, except it also has ask jeeves (who the hell uses that?)
17:52:04 <olsner> there should be an easy way to create custom search engines there
17:52:05 <Vorpal> olsner, so yeah, looking for a way to add custom ones
17:52:30 <Vorpal> where? I tried the menu button and holding down and various such things
17:52:51 <olsner> have you tried longpressing the search field on duckduckgo? I think that's how you get the menu to do it in opera mini anyway
17:53:03 <Vorpal> no, will try that
17:53:49 <Vorpal> that gives me clipboard in the built in browser, will try in the chrome beta too
17:54:15 <Vorpal> same thing there
17:54:27 <Vorpal> olsner, why would you use opera mini on an android device btw?
17:55:07 <olsner> Vorpal: faster, downloads less crap
17:55:55 <olsner> I only bother with another browser when something uses too much script and client-side stuff to work well in mini
17:56:08 <Vorpal> I guess it saves on the bw yeah
17:56:27 <olsner> *and* if I'm sufficiently interested in the page to want to wait for everything to download
17:56:42 <Vorpal> everything is super-quick on this phone though
17:56:53 <Vorpal> but, won't hurt installing it, might be useful at some point. A mobile browser with adblock would be nice though
17:57:14 <Vorpal> what is opera mobile
17:57:24 <Vorpal> also I need a mobile irc client, any recommendations?
17:58:02 <Vorpal> and WHY does opera mini want permissions for NFC?
17:58:25 <olsner> opera mobile is the regular browser for mobile phones (downloading everything and rendering locally on your phone), opera mini uses the proxy and server-side compression stuff
17:58:41 <olsner> I guess because they use NFC?
17:59:04 <Vorpal> yeah I know what mini does, I used it before on my dumb-phone
17:59:20 <olsner> android is iffy like that though, you have to ask permission for EVERYTHING that you EVER want the application to be able to do, which ends up with everything getting every permission in the world
17:59:43 <Vorpal> I guess I'll try out all of opera, firefox and so on and see what I like
18:00:15 <Vorpal> also I love ICS
18:00:44 <Vorpal> what I don't love is that this room is a wifi white spot sometimes...
18:05:46 <Vorpal> olsner, according to duck duck go's site you need to sync with desktop opera mini where duckduckgo is set as a search engine to make it work on mini
18:05:50 <Vorpal> you had another solution?
18:09:20 <olsner> looks like the issue is that they're doing something retarded to their search field
18:09:40 <Vorpal> hm
18:10:02 <Vorpal> going to try to reload it as desktop version in chrome
18:10:25 <olsner> works in mobile, longpress the search field and you get Add Search Engine
18:10:55 <Vorpal> olsner, oh so not mini?
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18:16:36 <Vorpal> yay figured it out in firefox
18:19:39 <mroman> Ok turns out.
18:19:50 <mroman> 5 years to brute force brainfuck constants :)
18:21:57 <olsner> well, worst case since you're looking for the shortest ones?
18:23:23 <mroman> yes.
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19:14:52 * oerjan notes that the tunes.org clock is at least a few seconds late already
19:15:38 <oerjan> which leads me to wonder whether my recent discovery that is was at the correct minute was simply of the "right twice a day" variety...
19:16:39 <oerjan> and also that the codu logs are probably up again, although glogbot and glogbackup both being here isn't _quite_ reassuring.
19:19:40 <oklopol> what's it called when you're able to divine whether a turing machine halts
19:25:13 <oklopol> maybe tourism
19:28:08 <Taneb> Magic
19:28:14 <Taneb> Turing oracle?
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19:29:10 <Taneb> If you could define a machine such that it halts if and only if a corresponding Turing machine does not, would it be turing complete?
19:30:46 <oklopol> idgi
19:32:41 <Taneb> Of course, the existence of both this machine and a Turing machine would solve the halting problem, I think
19:33:04 <oklopol> for that turing machine, yes
19:33:56 <oklopol> but solving the halting problem of a single turing machine is trivial if you don't require a computational model to make the divination. just say no if it doesn't halt and yes if it does.
19:34:26 <oklopol> or the other way around w/e
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20:49:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, there?
20:50:17 <Vorpal> For some reason I suspect that you will know the answer to the question I'm about to ask. Which lossy music format is best suited for music on a phone, possibly using high end head phones to listen to it.
20:50:36 <Vorpal> OGG? AAC? MP3? Something else?
20:50:44 <Vorpal> hm I should check if OGG is supported.
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20:58:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ogg if available, then AAC, then MP3. (AAC first if using a non-free encoder)
20:59:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, which encoder do you suggest?
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21:00:28 <Vorpal> anything that doesn't cost money is okay for me. My input is .flac mostly (though it would be trivial to convert it to wav)
21:00:51 <Vorpal> preserving metadata would be nice
21:01:03 <Vorpal> though I could probably use musicbrainz to readd that
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21:02:55 <Vorpal> fuck you mtp protocol!
21:03:14 <Vorpal> why did it suddenly stop working
21:03:17 <Vorpal> it worked a minute ago
21:04:00 <Vorpal> oh it didn't work when rythmbox was open?
21:05:13 <Vorpal> yeah .ogg works
21:05:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: I dunno. oggenc or LAME, and I'm not too up on what good AAC encoders are out there.
21:05:49 <pikhq> I just happen to know libfaac isn't that good.
21:06:02 <Vorpal> and flac works too, though that is a waste of space
21:07:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, parameter suggestions for oggenc?
21:08:21 <Vorpal> like the -q (quality) parameter
21:10:05 <Vorpal> yeah the default sounds slightly off in some of the detail
21:10:47 <Vorpal> -q 5 sounds fine
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21:29:55 <Vorpal> hm can android scan QR codes out of box?
21:30:00 <Vorpal> if not, any good app for it?
21:30:37 <coppro> barcode scanner
21:31:03 <Vorpal> coppro, any ads in that app?
21:31:07 <coppro> no
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21:31:33 <Vorpal> coppro, the barcode scanner app by "ZXING TEAM"?
21:32:47 <Vorpal> ah it is open source at least
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21:36:52 <coppro> yes
21:37:06 <Vorpal> right seems to work fine
21:37:42 <Vorpal> also lol this link when I clicked on a link. I installed a large set of browsers to evaluate them
21:37:45 <Vorpal> so it is rather long
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22:33:25 <Vorpal> olsner, hm I have problems with opera mini
22:33:37 <Vorpal> it doesn't seem to play well with the multi tasking on ICS
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22:34:20 <Vorpal> like the start screen (with the quick links) refusing to display after the program was backgrounded for a while until I force stop it
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23:22:32 <kmc> Vorpal: Google Goggles does QR codes and a bunch of other stuff
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