00:04:08 <Vorpal> I guess I'll finish that app tomorrow
00:04:34 <Vorpal> not a lot left though, clean up GUI, remove some debug buttons and add preference saving
00:05:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow someone nominated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shallow_water_waves_250px.gif for featured pic.
00:06:00 <Vorpal> also eh, seems I need to bug fix, I think the service got killed somehow...
00:06:10 <Vorpal> guess it needs to be a foreground service
00:16:26 <zzo38> Which programming languages allow ASCII control characters in identifiers?
00:17:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, Pretty sure erlang allows some at least, if you quote the identifiers
00:17:27 <Vorpal> you can have an identifier which is the empty string even
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00:20:26 <zzo38> I do like to be able to quote the identifiers too but it is not exactly what I meant
00:21:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, you can't have such variable names of course, since that is a separate namespace
00:21:44 <Vorpal> but function or module names, sure
00:21:55 <Vorpal> though for module names the compiler might not like your file name very much
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00:24:21 <zzo38> There should be allowed to use shift-in, shift-out, and backspace, possibly with some restrictions (such as not more backspaces than printable characters, and any shift-out must have a shift-in somewhere after it), in some programming languages, maybe?
00:25:46 <zzo38> As well as macros to treat certain names as similar to others. For example in Haskell we have "/=" for not equal so you can have "/\BS=" and "\SO|\SI" macros that result in the name being treated equivalently to "/=" unless those macros are redefined.
00:25:57 <Vorpal> what does shift-in/out do?
00:26:08 <zzo38> (You could also have the similar macros for the Unicode not-equal sign to mean the same thing too)
00:27:15 <zzo38> Vorpal: Shift-in/shift-out on some terminals is used to select a different character set. (Other terminals may have other meanings for them, none of them common as far as I know)
00:27:41 <Vorpal> well I need to sleep, unless Phantom__Hoover comes back I'm not going to bother chatting more
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01:02:07 <ion> Intro to Physics started. http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/ph100/CourseRev/1
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01:30:35 <zzo38> Are you good at physics?
01:31:41 <zzo38> When in school I could select the science course I selected the physics because I like that one. But I was also taking calculus class so some things in the physics I could understand by the calculus too
01:32:00 <zzo38> I think they invented calculus to do physics.
01:45:24 <zzo38> I am not in school at this time.
01:48:17 <shachaf> zzo38: What school are you not in?
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01:51:41 <VorpalPhone> zzo38: are you at collage or university then?
01:54:26 <zzo38> I am not at school/collage/university.
01:57:21 <pikhq> https://twitter.com/MichaelSeger/status/217792901718085633/photo/1/large Now I too get to experience what Beijing atmosphere is like!
02:09:14 <VorpalPhone> Will you start university this fall then zzo38
02:12:27 <FireFly> -VorpalPhone- VERSION AndChat 1.4.0.2 http://www.andchat.net
02:13:11 <VorpalPhone> Missing the Xchat style nick alignment though
02:18:19 <FireFly> That looks pretty neat. Not a fan of the variable-width font though
02:22:23 <VorpalPhone> Anyway I'm effectively using swype, though it calls itself "Samsung keyboard"
02:25:04 <VorpalPhone> Also the phone uses the front facing camera to detect when you are still looking at it even though you haven't touched it for a bit. It works better than I expected.
02:28:21 <VorpalPhone> Another nice feature is picture-in-picture with the video player inside any other program. Doesn't work with YouTube though, only local videos.
02:28:57 <FireFly> that usage of the front-facing camera sounds pretty clever
02:31:48 <VorpalPhone> Long term this keyboard hurts though. But so do all phones. Even ones with physical keyboards
02:32:46 <FireFly> The best phone keyboard I've used is the N900's, so far
02:39:40 <VorpalPhone> Ha! I can trick opera mini into acting like that
02:41:02 <VorpalPhone> So that way I can do the picture in picture with YouTube videos
02:42:54 <VorpalPhone> This is what it looks like http://db.tt/mBOf3bn7
02:43:54 <FireFly> is it easy to switch between applications? especially between current and last application
02:46:06 <VorpalPhone> Rather than the dedicated button Google intended
02:52:14 <VorpalPhone> Been using WiFi for hours without recharge and still at 75%
02:53:41 <VorpalPhone> If you can handle a large phone, this is awesome
02:56:40 <VorpalPhone> One issue is that using the FM radio with the included earphones o
02:57:49 <VorpalPhone> No idea why. Works well with other headphones.
02:58:33 <VorpalPhone> Also the included ones are fine with music player
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03:35:47 <zzo38> Usually a music that modulates into many keys uses equal temperament so that the chords are equal for all keys, which does work OK. But what happen if you write a music that is modulating into many keys, starting and ending on the same key though, and using just intonation tuned for only the starting key, so that the chord vary in the different keys (although you might get wolf tones in some)?
03:38:53 <zzo38> (Doing that, you would have to think more carefully of what keys you modulate to, such as when you want wolf intervals and so on)
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05:07:17 <zzo38> Unuse command in this track.
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06:33:35 <zzo38> The default setting for VRC7 frequencies in PPMCK appears to be based on A440 although it is 2Hz off and the tones vary as much as four cents from equal temperament. This is using 172 for C (the formula is $F={49722x\over2^{19-o}}$ where $x$ is a nine-bit integer and $o$ is a three-bit integer). Setting C to 269 appears to be much closer with up to two cents of variance.
06:34:38 <zzo38> However, this way is no longer tuned to A440 so it will not work if you use channels other than the VRC7 (and possibly noise channels as well), or if you require A440 tuning for any other purpose.
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06:39:56 <zzo38> However, you do get a just perfect fifth of C and G with the 172 based setting.
07:04:25 <Vorpal> zzo38, what about non-western tunings?
07:04:44 <Vorpal> does it support Indian (as in India) music?
07:04:58 <Vorpal> if not, how could you improve the system to support that?
07:05:46 <Sgeo> tswett, update
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07:09:19 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose any octave-based tuning could be used with VRC7, although since the frequency must be a nine-bit integer, the range may be limited so they might not be in tune.
07:09:39 <zzo38> (I have already made PPMCK to support custom tuning)
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07:10:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, iirc Indian music have quarter-notes
07:10:36 <Vorpal> don't remember the the details though
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07:12:06 <zzo38> PPMCK only supports up to sixteen notes per octave though, due to the way the lookup tables are programmed.
07:12:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, you need to improve that
07:14:12 <zzo38> PPMCK only makes .NSF musics and is has a limited ROM space as well as a limited CPU speed
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11:15:21 <mroman> Ok. Found new solution for 90
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11:19:25 <fizzie> The object-oriented variant of 88.
11:29:33 <fizzie> It's better just to succ it up.
11:30:57 <itidus21> ive been studying some actual math today
11:31:50 <mroman> I actually have no idea how +[+[+>]<<+]> works :)
11:32:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i don't know if i've read the wikipedia page before, but existential quantifiers
11:34:14 <itidus21> E x in X P(x), V x in X (Px), ~E x in X P(x), ~V x in X (Px)
11:36:17 <itidus21> i only see the boxes with numbers.. im not sure how to remedy this
11:36:47 <mroman> It seems to add 1 to the cell in the middle every 12 cycles
11:37:06 <kmc> itidus21: whatever font you're using doesn't have those characters
11:37:35 <mroman> except for the first and last few cycles.
11:37:58 <itidus21> ive basically been studying control flow
11:38:17 <fizzie> mroman: If I call the cells L, M and R (for left, middle, right), I think it keeps R == 0 as a sentinel, initializes L = 1, C = 3 and then keeps doing L += 3, C += 1 until L wraps around. (Or, rather, L += 2, C += 1, ***, L += 1 where *** is the point where L's wraparound is noticed.)
11:38:28 <itidus21> and then i arrived at a page about McCarthy Formalism
11:38:34 <fizzie> mroman: (At least based on how it starts; I haven't checked how it ends.)
11:38:35 <mroman> it set's the cell to 2 and then adds one every 12 cycles
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11:39:18 <fizzie> mroman: The +'s in the outermost loop always apply to the left cell, while the [+>] construct increments both the left and middle cells.
11:39:33 <fizzie> (Well, except for at the very start, when the first + applies to the middle cell.)
11:42:41 <itidus21> i feel like i'm on the precipice of being an application developer and a computer scientist
11:42:50 <fizzie> 14:42 <fizzie> ,cc uint8_t L = 1, C = 3; while (L) { L += 3; C++; } printf("%d\n", C);
11:42:53 <fizzie> 14:42 <candide> fizzie: 88
11:42:57 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure that's what it does, basically.
11:43:09 <fizzie> (My previous comment on where the L wraparound is checked was worng.)
11:43:55 <kmc> what do you do now? what have you done?
11:44:40 <itidus21> but, like, theres a reference on this wiki page to Marvin Minsky (1967), Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines
11:44:51 <itidus21> which is probably massively overkill on explanation
11:45:09 <itidus21> but if i followed it up i would be going down the rabbit hole
11:46:30 <kmc> reading one paper by marvin minsky does not make you a computer scientist
11:50:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++>+[+++<+>]<.! I think it's pretty much the same as this, except saves characters by cleverly getting the setup done somewhat incidentally, and doing that unbalanced loop in place of +>+, which is of course important in getting the setup done.
11:55:47 <mroman> I'm currently generating a list of program ranges which I'd like to tackle with a 5k cycle limit.
11:56:14 <fizzie> Also I meant +<+ in my comment, forgot I had swapped the two cells.
11:56:46 <mroman> To bruteforce every program in a range takes approx 1.5h on an i3 Processor.
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11:57:33 <mroman> So I won't come far on my own :)
11:57:57 <mroman> and 1 range includes 4294967295 programs
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11:58:47 <mroman> some of them not valid brainfuck programs, of course.
11:59:01 <mroman> but those are not interpreted.
11:59:21 <fizzie> Not 4294967296? I would have expected a 2^N, not 2^N-1.
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11:59:59 <mroman> That is ULONG_MAX on a 32bit machine.
12:00:14 <fizzie> But there are ULONG_MAX+1 values in an unsigned long.
12:00:44 <mroman> it goes from 0 to ULONG_MAX
12:00:52 <fizzie> (Nitpicking is what I do most of the time.)
12:01:09 <mroman> where limit is ULONG_MAX
12:03:55 <mroman> So I thought I publish the program, create a table of ranges in the wiki
12:04:03 <mroman> and people can sign up for them and let them run
12:04:09 <mroman> and publish the results :D
12:08:52 <mroman> first I shall solve some linear first-order inhom. diff. equations.
12:27:16 <mroman> Does the wiki allow to upload text files?
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12:44:43 <mroman> this wiki seems not to like subpages?
12:46:23 <fizzie> I've seen subpages in the User: namespace, at least. But that might be a different thing.
12:47:11 <fizzie> <elliott> I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake
12:47:56 <fizzie> That was in February 2012, though.
12:48:55 <fizzie> Very next line, incidentally: <elliott> because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki
12:49:43 <fizzie> (The Esoteric File Archive, if it was somehow more publicly editable, would I guess be the proper place.)
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13:10:45 <mroman> then I have to move it :)
13:12:52 <fizzie> It's not a very great sin, but I suppose it's slightly discouraged. Maybe. I don't really have any knowledge on things having to do with the wiki.
13:13:21 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
13:14:22 <itidus21> i thought i was having a good night but somehow i triggered depression.. maybe i'm too much of a realist
13:16:27 <itidus21> like i have all these cortices in my head designed to process looking at and talking to humans, but days, weeks, years pass just staring at a computer screen
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13:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Warwick University's accomodation application offers "British Antarctic Territories" as a nationality.
13:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Well it actually /says/ "British Antartic Territories".
13:58:35 <mroman> And if I'm from gibraltar?
13:59:05 <neutrino2000> what about that oil platform that gained independence?
13:59:29 <neutrino2000> i forgot the name of it, sorry, but it was something funny
13:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> If you mean Sealand, it has next to no formal recognition and in any case was a fort, not an oil platform.
14:00:26 <neutrino2000> that one could be fun, since they're fighting for recognition since about when the stonehenge was new
14:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> WP says Basque nationalism originated in the 19th century,.
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14:03:27 <Vorpal> speaking of typos, I once had to put [sic] in a reference list (In my thesis). The paper was from an "Internatonal Conference"
14:03:41 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: stop correcting neutrino2000, that's not very polite.
14:03:51 <neutrino2000> Phantom_Hoover: given that the earth is only 4000 years old i'd say that's when the stonehenge was built
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14:04:45 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: guess.
14:05:27 <blom> i am blom entirely by accident
14:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't think of any notable absences other than elliott, and you don't sound like elliott; oerjan's not here but I don't think he's normally on at this time?
14:06:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, according to whois this guy is from .fi
14:06:29 -!- blom has changed nick to oklopol.
14:06:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think you are notable
14:07:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, don't let that mean Phantom_Hoover make you sad!
14:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well notable as in your absence is presently noteworthy.
14:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> OK wow, the aforementioned citizenship selection? Doesn't include "United States".
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14:22:55 <mroman> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
14:28:11 <mroman> There is a problem that when you pick a range in the middle there is no way to know shortest previous solutions.
14:28:33 <mroman> But that's by design that way.
14:28:58 <mroman> It's not a problem though, you just have to filter them out when somebody in a lower range also found a solution for the same number.
14:44:25 <fizzie> http://i.space.com/images/i/4460/original/Apollo-11-Immigration-02.jpg "Departure from: MOON"
14:47:18 <quintopia> does the law really consider the moon a different country?
14:48:04 <fizzie> The article that accompanied the image said they were having one of those "joke" things.
14:49:06 <fizzie> It's a bit vague to say just "MOON" when what is asked is "Place and Country". That's about 38 million square kilometres.
14:50:25 <quintopia> it's not so big. in the middle of the night when it's full, i can cover it with my thumb, arm extended
14:50:52 <kmc> "Any other condition on board which may lead to the spread of disease: TO BE DETERMINED"
14:51:06 <fizzie> Well, they *did* sit in a quarantine for some weeks.
14:51:14 <fizzie> For all those MOON GERMS.
14:51:18 <kmc> don't wanna get moonpox
14:54:05 <kmc> there should be a brainfuck derivative with distributed message-passing
14:54:09 <kmc> called clusterfuck
14:54:55 <fizzie> "there should be a brainfick derivative" is the objectively best initial substring a sentence can have.
14:56:58 <fizzie> Today's new newsgroup at the local Usenet server: alt.paul-derbyshire.fix.it.now. (The client reports all new groups.)
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16:22:56 <Gregor> nortti: Your C2BF online yet?
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16:30:08 <Gregor> quintopia: Do you have an hg bundle for bfjoust to use the new scoring system yet?
16:31:05 <quintopia> Gregor: i dont know how. anyway, it only needs to change like four files, and they are all in that archive i gave you.
16:31:18 <Gregor> ... you gave me an archive???
16:31:27 <quintopia> besides, hg can't make sure you have clapack installed can it?
16:31:28 <Gregor> I thought we just talked about how to send it and then I never got an actual link.
16:32:06 <quintopia> uh nope, definitely gave you a link sometime last weekish
16:32:43 <lambdabot> quintopia said 5d 14h 48m 56s ago: http://www.filedropper.com/newbfjousttar and ask about the bug in gearlance
16:32:50 <Gregor> lambdabot: WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED
16:33:23 <quintopia> you said something to the channel just moment after i sent that as i recall
16:33:40 <Gregor> So about how that link seems dead >_>
16:34:06 <quintopia> well they delete files if no one downloads them :P
16:37:03 <nortti> Gregor: no, I havn't been able to access my computer since last saturday
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17:19:14 <Gregor> nortti: Do you have a github account, so I can at least point the guy there and say "it should appear here sometime" X-D
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18:15:45 <nortti> ^rainbow *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:15:46 <fungot> *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:19:28 <quintopia> it looks better if each color is repeated for 2 chars before switching
18:19:43 <fungot> quintopia: i used to have some ostensible reason for visiting somewhere. " i'm giving you an illusionary effect of adding 2 to t
18:28:13 <mroman> ^rainbow ^rainbow ^rainbow
18:29:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:29:24 <EgoBot> 93 +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---. [505]
18:29:38 <mroman> ^rainbow ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:39 <fungot> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:29:56 <mroman> ^rainbow !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:57 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:33:28 <EgoBot> 147 ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<. [981]
18:33:38 <FireFly> !bf ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<.
18:33:58 <FireFly> I guesss the bots are protected against triggering each other
18:35:28 <lambdabot> asiekierka_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:35:37 <asiekierka_> when your VPS provider gives you a 5.0.0.0/8-range IP
18:36:48 <fizzie> FireFly: fungot has an ignore list, some (Gregor-bots?) also add a zero-width space in front of output so it doesn't trigger commands.
18:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: afk for a while)
18:37:56 <Gregor> © 2011 Gregor Richards, all rights reserved
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18:38:12 <Gregor> It only adds it when the first character doesn't match [a-zA-Z0-9], btw.
18:40:28 <asiekierka_> is there a DNS hack to add a fallback IP address?
18:42:48 <fizzie> I'm no Hamachi expert, but I've a feeling that you're just SOL no matter what DNS trickery you do, since it sounds likely Hamachi eats all 5/8 routing, and that's the IP your user eventually needs to communicate with.
18:45:36 <fizzie> A manual single-IP route for your IP (with the default gateway) sounds possibly worky, but hard to configure, and would need to be done by the affected user.
18:50:35 <asiekierka_> and the problem is, most European VPS providers are ONLY offering 5.0.0.0/8 now
18:50:43 <asiekierka_> and LogMeIn will probably not bother fixing it
18:50:56 <asiekierka_> essentially LogeMeIn will blame it on my provider and my provider will blame it on LogMeIn
18:50:57 <shachaf> kmc: The new #haskell, eh?
18:51:04 <asiekierka_> and the guy who has a dedi which hosts my VPS doesn't want to deal with tech supportr
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18:53:11 <fizzie> LogMeIn can blame providers until they turn blue, doesn't make their address land grab any more legitimate.
18:58:02 <asiekierka_> As an early representative of the newly emerging group of Screwed IP Owners
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18:59:05 <Gregor> Aren't there reserved ranges they could've grabbed so long as they obviously don't care about rules X_X
18:59:17 <Gregor> Or, y'know, take some IPs from IBM :)
18:59:35 <fizzie> I think your options are somewhat limited to noisy complaining. Though there's a couple of those on the LogMeIn community forums already, and it doesn't seem to help.
19:00:20 <fizzie> There's the usual private IP blocks, but they didn't want conflicts with people's LANs. (I guess conflicts with the Internet are better.)
19:01:13 <fizzie> Wait, no, it's just below 128. But it was an arbitrarily chosen byte.
19:01:39 <fizzie> It's below 128 because it's the ASCII 'f' for 'fizzie'.
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19:04:57 <tswett> Whoa. Tommi Paalanen's last name ends with "la" *and* "nen".
19:06:08 <tswett> Although "paa" doesn't seem to be a word. Maybe it's supposed to be Päälänen.
19:06:46 <fizzie> Moilanen is a more common surname (8571 current owners) and also does.
19:07:48 <tswett> My lifetime goal is to move to Finland and register cka.fi.
19:11:49 <Gregor> That's a really pathetic goal.
19:12:03 <tswett> My favorite hobby is placing objects on top of cars.
19:12:12 <Gregor> MY lifetime goal is to figure out who bought libc.so, find him, and "convince" him to sell it to me on the cheap.
19:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also by 'on the cheap' I presume you mean like $10,000.
19:13:19 <tswett> libc.so, the domain name.
19:14:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The registrar has one of those "domain privacy" systems, so technically the owner is the registrar, and they're on file.
19:18:23 <fizzie> Gregor: You just start a lawsuit against a John Doe, ask for discovery against the registrar, and subpoena them. Or something like that. (If it works for people making money out of copyright lawsuit threat settlements...)
19:18:44 <Gregor> The only tiny minor issue is that nothing they've done is even borderline illegal ;)
19:20:16 <fizzie> Yes, but the courts certainly don't check that, or expect evidence. They always drop the suits after they've subpoenaed the IP -> name, address mappings out of the ISPs in question.
19:22:36 <fizzie> Speaking of Hamachi and reserved ranges, there's still that whole 240/4 block (that's like 16 /8s) that's reserved for future extensions. But maybe they were worried there'd be technical issues there.
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19:33:06 <tswett> Technical issues involved in assigning the 240 block?
19:41:39 <fizzie> Technical issues involved in just starting to use it. I suppose some sanity checks might barf at such addresses.
19:42:24 <oerjan> insane sanity checks, the best kind
19:42:50 <fizzie> At least the 5/8 addresses are perfectly kosher. (They just belong to someone else.)
19:43:16 <oerjan> could those someone else sue them?
19:44:36 <fizzie> It's at least not completely impossible. Interfering with their legitimate business and whatnot. But I'm not a lawyer.
19:45:18 <fizzie> There was one forum posting where the author said he'd received a reply from LogMeIn that they're working on a "fix", but no details or ETA.
19:46:07 <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts.
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19:52:10 <oerjan> eek, prepare for incoming prepromorphisms
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19:52:49 <Taneb> I've just got back from an open day at Oxford
19:53:40 <edwardk> while guilty of packaging up the only libraries for manipulating prepromorphisms, i don't actually like or use them ;)
19:54:21 <edwardk> here i'd be more likely to ramble on about generalized de bruijn indices and locally nameless syntax tree representations
19:54:37 <edwardk> though i guess the effect on the audience would be largely indistinguishable
19:54:57 <oerjan> well that's just until you manage to combine them...
19:55:31 <edwardk> well, i _do_ have catamorphisms for tearing down such generalized de bruijn indices, just i've never bothered to build a version of a prepro or postpromorphism ;)
19:56:02 <edwardk> you can appeal to neal ghani's "initial algebra semantics are enough" to work with them even though the ADT isn't uniform
19:56:12 <Taneb> While guilty of packaging up the only library for manipulating family trees, I really love and try to make them :)
19:56:30 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts. <-- why don't they just switch to a different range?
19:57:01 <oerjan> if you think your family fits into a tree, someone has been hiding secrets from you
19:57:02 <Vorpal> you don't even need a whole /8 for a VPN, that is kind of silly
19:57:19 <Vorpal> a /16 seems reasonable to me.
19:58:02 <Vorpal> (there is no need to conform to the old class sizes after all)
19:58:12 <Vorpal> also they could go ipv6
19:58:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: AIUI, their "VPN" is a global thing. You're supposed to be able to connect to other Hamachi hosts, and the addresses are globally unique. (But I might be wrong.)
19:58:30 <oerjan> "Note, the signature of these has changed, because it was insufficiently general, [...]"
19:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems like a pointless VPN then. Since it takes the P out of VPN
19:58:51 <edwardk> oerjan: is that a quote of me from somewhere? =)
19:59:05 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/a/5058725/1088108
19:59:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's transparently encryptamated and stuffs, plus handles NAT traversal. And it might have some sort of smaller networks. I really only know what I've gleaned from random reading.
20:00:03 <edwardk> need to wander around and mingle, brb
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20:00:11 <Taneb> oerjan, the non-tree-iness of family trees is why nobody likes implementing them
20:00:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, their official reason for not going with 10/8 is that too many people have LANs in there.
20:00:31 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, you had the issue right? Why not switch to a different VPN solution, such as OpenVPN?
20:00:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was his users.
20:01:05 <Vorpal> well, they just need to install openvpn as well
20:01:15 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, for minecraft? come on
20:01:22 <Vorpal> there is no need for NAT traversal there
20:01:25 <oerjan> it's a little known secret that monogamy was invented by really angry genealogists to simplify things
20:02:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Presumably they need it for other things. Whatever it's good for. And you can't really unilaterally switch VPN solutions, the other end needs to cooperate.
20:03:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, since hamachi is broken (not following IANA assignments) I don't see why any self-respecting server admin would support it
20:04:04 <fizzie> Hamachi has some sort of zero-conf dealie, and doesn't (AIUI, again) need any participant to have a clearly defined server role.
20:04:29 <fizzie> It might b "slightly" difficult to convince all your friends to switch to OpenVPN or whatever.
20:04:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, he has a server (VPS I think he said?), he can provide the such a server role
20:05:30 <Vorpal> anyway configuring OpenVPN is easy enough. By far easier than setting up IPsec for example.
20:06:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, another trivially easy option would be ssh tunneling btw
20:06:55 <Vorpal> (it is quite easy to create limited accounts)
20:07:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: If he just has user X who uses Hamachi to do stuffs with the user's friends A, B and C who otherwise won't have anything to do with him, I doubt (a) he's be interested in doing VPN for them, and (b) A, B, C switching to some random dude's VPN mess.
20:07:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway since he can't provide hamachi he might just as well provide openvpn as an option if they are that interested in his server
20:08:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, if they only happen to need hamachi for other stuff (rather than his server) and that thus collides that would be easy to solve
20:08:47 <Vorpal> just something like ip route <specific address> dev eth0 I /think/
20:08:59 <Taneb> This reminds me, can anyone recommend a Scala tutorial?
20:09:10 <Vorpal> iirc the routing table works by most specific first, right?
20:10:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It would need the gateway address, not just "dev eth0", and that's often dynamic. Also, from general statistics random users are nontechnical Windows users. (I did suggest a single-IP route.)
20:10:24 <Vorpal> ah it is ip route add to <specific address goes here> eth0 (or wlan0 or whatever your non-hamachi thingy is)
20:10:42 <Vorpal> but you can just look at your default route to figure out what the gateway is
20:11:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm pretty sure you can add custom routes under windows from within the adapter properties
20:11:53 <Vorpal> so you could just provide a screenshot guide
20:12:08 <Vorpal> anyone can follow those
20:12:47 <fizzie> Personally, I'd just complain. It's likely they'll invent *some* kind of terrible workaround sooner or later.
20:13:31 <Vorpal> another option: write a tiny windows program that does this for the user. Very simple to use: just double click and okay the UAC warning
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20:15:03 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too simple to write, though, even assuming it's okey just to support from XP to 7.
20:15:24 <Vorpal> well, you would need to read some API docs sure
20:15:36 <fizzie> Windows APIs aren't always the most pleasant.
20:15:44 <Vorpal> but if things like AICCU manages to mess around with such things...
20:16:07 <Vorpal> (that only messes with ipv6 routing, but the process should be similar)
20:16:40 <Vorpal> speaking of which, what APIs do commands like ip route use under linux...
20:16:56 <fizzie> It's perfectly horrible.
20:17:06 <fizzie> Also really badly documented.
20:17:40 <Vorpal> also what did they use to do? iirc netlink was added during 2.6?
20:17:49 <fizzie> There's also all kinds of outdated ioctl-based duplicate ways of doing some of the same things, that ipconfig/route use.
20:18:12 <fizzie> But I'm under the impression iproute is fully (rt)netlink-based.
20:18:31 <Vorpal> hm the old route command doesn't use netlink indeed
20:19:16 <Vorpal> anyway ifconfig is much nicer if you just want to check ip and mac and what not for your network adapters
20:19:34 <fizzie> The 'ip' tool itself is kind of awkward if you go to esoteric enough things.
20:20:01 <fizzie> There's undocumented stuffs and such.
20:20:04 <Vorpal> I guess you mean stuff like bonding?
20:20:10 <Vorpal> there is undocumented things? Really?
20:21:23 <Vorpal> also I don't see the point of netlink. Why a special socket type just to configure networking? Using ioctls seems so much cleaner for this
20:22:24 <fizzie> IPv6 neighbour-discovery proxy stuff is/was quite a mess. The netlink API lets you add stuff, but there's no way to list what you've added, for example.
20:22:40 <Vorpal> neighbour-discovery proxy stuff? huh?
20:23:06 <fizzie> Something rather uncommon. It's like proxy-ARP but for IPv6.
20:23:15 <Vorpal> I have no idea what proxy-ARP is
20:24:02 <Vorpal> oh right, just read a bit on wikipedia about it
20:24:16 <Vorpal> sounds vaguely familiar
20:24:37 <fizzie> It's when you configure one box to say "hey, I'm here" for ARP requests to boxes "behind" it, because the other end is not interested in configuring routing rules, just route a /X to the network that your proxy-ARP box is connected to.
20:24:41 <Vorpal> eh, this seems open to security issues
20:25:50 <fizzie> (The cleaner way would of course be if they'd just route some a/b with your box as the gateway, so that you could then just forward.)
20:27:12 <Vorpal> but who uses mobile ip...
20:27:25 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a RFC so it's a respectable technique. :p
20:27:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, the security issues seem rampant with it though
20:28:08 <Vorpal> you could use this on a normal network for DoS easily
20:29:07 <fizzie> That's not really a *proxy*-ARP security issue, just an ARP one.
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20:30:31 <fizzie> I'm suddenly left wondering how many working, actively used IPX networks there are around.
20:30:49 <oklopol> "Dear Dr [oklopol], Thank you very much for reviewing the manuscript entitled [stuff]. Following your advice this paper has been rejected." thanks, totally wanted to know :D
20:31:18 <Vorpal> so the only real secure way is to statically configure the ARP cache in your switch and then make it filter ARP messages?
20:31:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or just use end-to-end IPsec with authentication.
20:31:51 <fizzie> So you'll notice pretenders.
20:31:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could still cause DoS in a switch
20:32:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Are you actually a Dr. oklopol?
20:32:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes. But you could also connect the switch port to 230V AC and cause a DoS issue.
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20:34:36 <fizzie> There's certain amount of trust involved in an Ethernet network. I ecpect you could also collide everything (or selected packets if you're real fast) to stop traffic.
20:35:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but imagine you run a data center, one attack is possible if any of your customer's servers are compromised. The other requires physical access
20:36:21 <oklopol> but i guess they just assume the referees are usually phds or something, and don't bother to personalize
20:37:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you can't collide a switched network as far as I know? And there is full duplex to the switch. You could overload it (unless there was QoS of course), but not collide.
20:37:05 <fizzie> oklopol: It's also polite to do the mistakes only upwards. I've gotten some "Prof. [fizzie]" emails.
20:37:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, an ARP attack seems like a larger issue than the ones you suggested
20:40:25 <oklopol> Dear all powerful divine ruler of heavens [recipient]
20:41:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think managed switches do mitigate some ARP problems. But I'm no networkist. And it probably depends on the competence of the data centre staff.
20:41:26 <oklopol> fizzie: have you ever gotten "Free Publication Invitation"s?
20:41:35 <oklopol> we got one some weeks back
20:42:03 <oklopol> from Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence
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20:42:23 <fizzie> oklopol: What does one do?
20:42:25 <oklopol> based on our paper on CA which had nothing to do with computation
20:42:53 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't understand the quesiton
20:43:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, managed switches can be kind of crazy sometimes. When I did my bachelor thesis I needed to get a phone on a guest net communicating with a server on the secure network of that company. The network guys spent hours to try to get it to work with various routing in their top router and what not, only to find that some previous network admin had setup some filters in the access point itself. I saw h
20:43:18 <Vorpal> im sitting in some crazy Cisco setup program
20:43:25 <Vorpal> looked really complicated
20:43:31 <Vorpal> and that was for a switch
20:43:37 <Vorpal> the router one looked even worse
20:45:03 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, so it's like "we'd like to publish this paper"?
20:45:04 <oklopol> fizzie: i was just wondering if it's a thing or if it's the weirdest spam ever
20:45:33 <oklopol> we'd like to publish some new paper of yours.
20:45:47 <oklopol> since we really liked this paper of yours which has nothing to do with our journal
20:46:27 <fizzie> oklopol: Right, *that* is what I thought. It sounds reasonably legitimate, as long as they're not offering a free pass through peer review too.
20:46:30 <oklopol> (it was in a publication many of whose articles could certainly go to the free publication offering journal)
20:46:57 <oklopol> Your paper will be published with no charge if accepted.
20:47:36 <Vorpal> with no charge? Why do they even have to point that out...
20:47:41 <oklopol> the offer stands for 3 more days.
20:47:52 <oklopol> err, journals usually cost something to publish in
20:48:15 <oklopol> yeah, peer review is so hard to do.
20:48:28 <Vorpal> well, it does involve some work certainly...
20:48:37 <fizzie> Well, not *always*. I don't know how it is on the math side, though.
20:48:39 <Vorpal> (at least to do it properly)
20:48:51 <oklopol> well i'm constantly doing peer review free of charge
20:49:10 <oklopol> so dunno where the costs come really
20:49:35 <fizzie> IEEE journals generally, AFAIK, only charge if you have too many pages.
20:49:38 <oklopol> fizzie: i have zero journal publications, so i know rather little
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20:49:56 <Vorpal> so what expenses does a journal have? You need like a web site, an editor. There are printing costs unless it is an online publication I guess
20:50:13 <Vorpal> subscription costs should cover that, surely?
20:50:50 <oklopol> universities subscribe to everything in the world
20:50:58 <Vorpal> yes they tend to do that
20:50:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given how big the subscription costs are, you'd *think* so. But there's some work in running the review stuff even if the actual reviewers are free.
20:51:10 <Vorpal> I guess the thing I will miss most from university is the IEEE xplore access
20:51:16 <Vorpal> not sure how to manage without that!
20:53:19 <fizzie> IEEE "computing library" package ("core journals" + limited downloads to "key articles" from Xplore) is only $21995/year, you could buy that.
20:53:58 <Vorpal> I wonder how much profit IEEE has on that
20:54:28 <fizzie> $49795 for the "all-society periodicals package".
20:54:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I need to write a script to dump everything I can or so
20:54:47 <oklopol> yeah was just thinking that
20:54:50 <fizzie> That's probably against the access terms.
20:55:14 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i will, i haven't proved anything this week.
20:55:25 <fizzie> I don't even want to guesstimate how much the unlimited-period archive access is.
20:55:47 <fizzie> $64495 for online access to all IEEE conference proceedings.
20:56:14 <oklopol> what does IEEE cover? is that like, all the boring CS?
20:56:38 <fizzie> Also other engineering.
20:56:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does ACM cost?
20:57:03 <Vorpal> I used IEEE way more than ACM though
20:57:32 <fizzie> I think ACM had somewhat more reasonable fees for a single person. For an institution, it's probably something absurd.
20:57:53 <oklopol> anyhow you can put your articles on your own page even if you publish them, at least with most publishers
20:58:06 <oklopol> so i don't get why anyone wouldn't
20:58:26 <fizzie> With IEEE you sort-of can, with some restrictions.
20:59:05 <oklopol> the springer copyright form i always have to sign at least lets you do that (it's always a slightly different form for some reason)
20:59:05 <Vorpal> oh? what restrictions?
20:59:16 <oklopol> (but with what seems to be the same data)
20:59:29 <fizzie> I've forgotten the details. At least you have to tell them about it.
20:59:42 <oklopol> i just put my articles up as such and hope i don't get in trouble.
20:59:43 <Vorpal> right, telling them about it seems reasonable
20:59:50 <oklopol> perhaps you should change the name or something
21:00:22 <fizzie> IEEE copyright assignment form is an actual copyright assignment; with some of the others, you just grant them a non-exclusive license.
21:00:44 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to publish there then
21:01:03 <fizzie> In the latter case you can obvsly put them wherever.
21:01:23 <oklopol> i talked to my supervisor about the springer copyright and he was like huh, you actually read that?
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21:01:50 <oklopol> for springer, you can't publish elsewhere for a year
21:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway how does that work internationally, iirc you can't sign away copyright in Swedish law (you can sign away the monetary rights, but not the artistic or intellectual rights)
21:01:57 <oklopol> so i guess it assigns copyright
21:02:18 <fizzie> oklopol: It could also be an exclusive sort of license contract.
21:02:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have zero idea about the actual legalities. But that's what their form says, anyway.
21:03:06 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=springer%20copyright&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springer.com%2Fcda%2Fcontent%2Fdocument%2Fcda_downloaddocument%2Fcopyrightlncs.pdf%3FSGWID%3D0-0-45-154182-0&ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg&usg=AFQjCNGIqEDAa4JGXh7hI6AzPvkShTLv1w
21:03:24 <Vorpal> why through google? why not direct?
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21:03:42 <oklopol> because clicking on that downloaded that so it was faster like this
21:04:05 <oklopol> but i never remember google has all my search history and the color of my underpants encoded in the url
21:05:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Some Helsinki University library budget mentions they spent one million euros for an "Elsevier package", and about two million in the first half of the year for journal subscriptions and e-books.
21:05:12 <Vorpal> right, I wonder if there is a web site that allows you to easily extract what is known of the structure of that
21:05:24 <fizzie> (This is a random meeting memo so it's a bit vague.)
21:05:33 <Vorpal> I mean I have no idea what the ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg bit means for example
21:05:40 <Vorpal> the q= is obviously the search term
21:06:36 <fizzie> It's a big publishing company.
21:08:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: ACM digital library is $2000 to $17462 for an academic institution, depending on your "Tier". (Basically, amount of usage.)
21:08:24 <Vorpal> these numbers are so crazy
21:09:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually I have a (second-author) paper in an Elsevier journal that just two weeks ago got the final acceptance letter.
21:09:31 <fizzie> They asked some bizarre questions.
21:11:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/cOhM -- nothing too strange, but that's a pretty random list.
21:12:15 <fizzie> Don't know if Arthritis Research UK
21:12:24 <oklopol> us government is on springers thing too
21:12:27 <fizzie> funds a lot of speech recognition work.
21:12:54 <fizzie> Or the British Heart Foundation.
21:13:17 <Vorpal> why that specific list I wonder
21:13:49 <oklopol> okay the last part if very weird
21:14:04 <Vorpal> I wonder what "Telethon Italy" is... I can only find Italian pages when googling
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21:16:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is up with the line breaks and the leading + in that paste btw?
21:16:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Email client line-wrap indicator.
21:17:32 <Vorpal> rather dumb line wrapping, doesn't even handle the indentation correctly
21:17:59 <fizzie> I don't think it should.
21:19:23 <Vorpal> hm, the android youtube app seems to be devoid of the usual youtube ads. How surprising
21:19:26 <fizzie> It's not like e.g. Emacs would add empty space at start of continuation lines even if the lines were indented, either.
21:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, LaTeX would though
21:25:22 <fizzie> Well, that's different kind of line wrapping. This was just from edge of terminal, with a continuation line indicator.
21:26:01 <fizzie> Perhaps mutt has some actual wrap-to-specified-width functionality too, not sure.
21:35:43 <Taneb> Hey, should I try to learn Java, or should I go back to Python?
21:35:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, why those two languages?
21:36:08 <Vorpal> why not something like x86 asm or haskell?
21:36:17 <Taneb> I'm on Haskell at the moment
21:36:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, so x86 asm it is then
21:36:27 <Taneb> And the man said an imperative language would help
21:36:52 <Gregor> http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/track?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=xx-XX&trackNums=1Z317F350356043847&track.y=10l
21:36:54 <Taneb> The man at the Oxford University Open Day in the Computer Science section
21:36:57 <Gregor> Apparently they just give my package to hookers now.
21:37:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, err, they would help with what?
21:37:24 <Taneb> First year, there's a module of Scala
21:37:31 <Vorpal> java is only useful because it is faster than python and runs on many platforms. Such as Android
21:37:37 <Taneb> And the man wanted to teach everyone Scala
21:38:03 <Taneb> And he said Java and/or Python are good background
21:38:16 <Vorpal> virtually all Java programming I have done has either been for android, or server and desktop software to complement those android programs
21:45:50 <fizzie> Taneb: x86 asm is certainly very imperative, FWIW.
21:45:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's the long term plan
21:46:12 <Taneb> Short term plan is to avoid Scala as much at possible
21:46:38 <Taneb> fizzie, but that's more blow-y up launch all the missiles than C!
21:46:54 <fizzie> Medium-term plan is to paradoxically both learn *and* avoid Scala.
21:48:10 <fizzie> There's alwaysthe coin-flip solution.
21:48:33 <Taneb> fizzie, medium term plan is to learn enough about the emperors from Tiberius to Domitian such that I don't regret my option choices
21:49:47 <Taneb> You're in Scotland so you call them silly things like "Highers"
21:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait I forget, are you in your last year of school now or not.
21:50:21 <fizzie> Highlanders. There can be only one (choice).
21:50:34 <Taneb> Will be certainly in September
21:50:47 <fizzie> Are there ASS levels, too?
21:51:05 <Taneb> Nah, it goes AS to A2 for some stupid reason
21:53:36 <Taneb> Apparently, Python is available on Mac OS X /and/ Unix systems!
21:53:38 <fizzie> There was some sort of letter code for foreign languages depending on how early you started them. I think I had A1 Swedish, A2 English and B2 German.
21:54:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, besides the point
21:54:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, and java is available on that and many more platforms
21:54:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Java is available only on the Atari 5200, I think.
21:54:28 <Taneb> Aaaaah xkcd is right
21:54:48 <Taneb> smileys and parentheses
21:55:19 <Vorpal> I don't remember such an xkcd
21:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's awkward to fit smilies at the end of parenthetical statements.
21:55:25 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/541/
21:55:38 <Vorpal> unless it is something like :D or :P
21:55:59 <fizzie> :P) can look like a malformed nose too.
21:56:16 <Taneb> (how about this :C)
21:56:22 <Taneb> Still a nose, dammit
21:56:35 <Taneb> UPSIDE DOWN AAARGH
21:56:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, what about -_- style smilies
21:58:02 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't know a non-rotated equivalent to ":)" though
22:01:21 * oerjan puts on his birthday hat <:)
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22:04:26 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't worry, soon you'll be getting farther and farther from 60 every birthday.
22:06:00 <fizzie> Taneb: In ^_^) the paren looks like some sort of an ear thing.
22:06:18 <Taneb> What have you done, Randall
22:06:23 <Taneb> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
22:06:55 <oerjan> doomed our civilization, that's what
22:07:29 <fizzie> oerjan: When it's chri... I mean, year-end-holiday-time, you can just concatenate an asterisk to get a thematically appropriate *<:) hat.
22:07:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: And ^_^D is a N-gage owner.
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