←2012-06-26 2012-06-27 2012-06-28→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:38 <Phantom__Hoover> someone
00:00:48 <Phantom__Hoover> nominated their own crappy photo of a tennis ball
00:00:51 <Phantom__Hoover> for featured pic
00:01:19 <VorpalPhone> And what happened
00:01:50 <Phantom__Hoover> Three votes, all oppose.
00:02:28 <Vorpal> good
00:04:08 <Vorpal> I guess I'll finish that app tomorrow
00:04:11 <Vorpal> oh well
00:04:34 <Vorpal> not a lot left though, clean up GUI, remove some debug buttons and add preference saving
00:05:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow someone nominated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shallow_water_waves_250px.gif for featured pic.
00:05:43 <VorpalPhone> Huh
00:06:00 <Vorpal> also eh, seems I need to bug fix, I think the service got killed somehow...
00:06:10 <Vorpal> guess it needs to be a foreground service
00:16:26 <zzo38> Which programming languages allow ASCII control characters in identifiers?
00:17:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, Pretty sure erlang allows some at least, if you quote the identifiers
00:17:27 <Vorpal> you can have an identifier which is the empty string even
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00:20:26 <zzo38> I do like to be able to quote the identifiers too but it is not exactly what I meant
00:21:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, you can't have such variable names of course, since that is a separate namespace
00:21:44 <Vorpal> but function or module names, sure
00:21:55 <Vorpal> though for module names the compiler might not like your file name very much
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00:24:21 <zzo38> There should be allowed to use shift-in, shift-out, and backspace, possibly with some restrictions (such as not more backspaces than printable characters, and any shift-out must have a shift-in somewhere after it), in some programming languages, maybe?
00:25:46 <zzo38> As well as macros to treat certain names as similar to others. For example in Haskell we have "/=" for not equal so you can have "/\BS=" and "\SO|\SI" macros that result in the name being treated equivalently to "/=" unless those macros are redefined.
00:25:52 <Vorpal> shift-in?
00:25:57 <Vorpal> what does shift-in/out do?
00:26:00 <Vorpal> do*
00:26:08 <zzo38> (You could also have the similar macros for the Unicode not-equal sign to mean the same thing too)
00:27:15 <zzo38> Vorpal: Shift-in/shift-out on some terminals is used to select a different character set. (Other terminals may have other meanings for them, none of them common as far as I know)
00:27:25 <Vorpal> right
00:27:41 <Vorpal> well I need to sleep, unless Phantom__Hoover comes back I'm not going to bother chatting more
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00:33:37 <VorpalPhone> Or someone else who
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00:50:08 <VorpalPhone> Hi Patashu
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00:52:50 <Phantom__Hoover> I need to sleep even more.
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00:54:47 <VorpalPhone> Phantom__Hoover: oh?
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01:02:07 <ion> Intro to Physics started. http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/ph100/CourseRev/1
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01:30:35 <zzo38> Are you good at physics?
01:31:41 <zzo38> When in school I could select the science course I selected the physics because I like that one. But I was also taking calculus class so some things in the physics I could understand by the calculus too
01:32:00 <zzo38> I think they invented calculus to do physics.
01:41:09 <VorpalPhone> zzo38: aren't you still in school?
01:45:24 <zzo38> I am not in school at this time.
01:48:17 <shachaf> zzo38: What school are you not in?
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01:51:41 <VorpalPhone> zzo38: are you at collage or university then?
01:54:26 <zzo38> I am not at school/collage/university.
01:57:21 <pikhq> https://twitter.com/MichaelSeger/status/217792901718085633/photo/1/large Now I too get to experience what Beijing atmosphere is like!
01:58:47 <VorpalPhone> zzo38: I mean during
01:59:08 <VorpalPhone> During non-holidays
02:00:55 <zzo38> I finished school
02:08:35 <VorpalPhone> Ah
02:09:14 <VorpalPhone> Will you start university this fall then zzo38
02:09:48 <zzo38> I don't think so
02:10:08 <VorpalPhone> Why not
02:12:08 <VorpalPhone> FireFly: what did it say
02:12:27 <FireFly> -VorpalPhone- VERSION AndChat http://www.andchat.net
02:12:34 <VorpalPhone> Ah
02:13:11 <VorpalPhone> Missing the Xchat style nick alignment though
02:14:52 <VorpalPhone> FireFly: want a screenshot?
02:15:03 <FireFly> Sure
02:16:29 <VorpalPhone> http://db.tt/gRRLiUbB
02:17:19 <VorpalPhone> http://db.tt/4SFpiBgg too
02:17:27 <VorpalPhone> FireFly:
02:18:19 <FireFly> That looks pretty neat. Not a fan of the variable-width font though
02:18:36 <VorpalPhone> This is on a 302" display btw
02:18:51 <VorpalPhone> 306 I meant
02:19:02 <VorpalPhone> Dpi too
02:19:22 <VorpalPhone> 4.8" 306dpi
02:19:32 <VorpalPhone> So many typos
02:19:40 <FireFly> 302" would be insane :p
02:20:23 <VorpalPhone> Like an Iboard
02:22:23 <VorpalPhone> Anyway I'm effectively using swype, though it calls itself "Samsung keyboard"
02:25:04 <VorpalPhone> Also the phone uses the front facing camera to detect when you are still looking at it even though you haven't touched it for a bit. It works better than I expected.
02:25:57 <VorpalPhone> Prevents screen from timing out
02:28:21 <VorpalPhone> Another nice feature is picture-in-picture with the video player inside any other program. Doesn't work with YouTube though, only local videos.
02:28:57 <FireFly> that usage of the front-facing camera sounds pretty clever
02:29:11 <VorpalPhone> Yes
02:29:53 <VorpalPhone> I really like this phone
02:30:07 <VorpalPhone> Galaxy s3
02:31:48 <VorpalPhone> Long term this keyboard hurts though. But so do all phones. Even ones with physical keyboards
02:32:46 <FireFly> The best phone keyboard I've used is the N900's, so far
02:34:05 <VorpalPhone> Oh, really
02:34:17 <VorpalPhone> Seems tiny still
02:34:44 <VorpalPhone> And I have fairly huge hands
02:37:10 <VorpalPhone> Hmm I want YouTube-dl for android...
02:39:40 <VorpalPhone> Ha! I can trick opera mini into acting like that
02:41:02 <VorpalPhone> So that way I can do the picture in picture with YouTube videos
02:42:54 <VorpalPhone> This is what it looks like http://db.tt/mBOf3bn7
02:43:00 <VorpalPhone> FireFly:
02:43:23 <FireFly> oh, neat
02:43:50 <VorpalPhone> You can drag the video around of course
02:43:54 <FireFly> is it easy to switch between applications? especially between current and last application
02:44:40 <VorpalPhone> Not as easy as with galaxy nexus
02:45:01 <VorpalPhone> Due to hardware buttons
02:45:31 <VorpalPhone> You hold down home to get the task menu
02:46:06 <VorpalPhone> Rather than the dedicated button Google intended
02:46:45 <FireFly> Ah
02:47:55 <VorpalPhone> The video thing is unique to s3 though
02:50:04 <VorpalPhone> This has a quad core CPU
02:50:48 <VorpalPhone> FireFly: pretty good battery time though.
02:52:14 <VorpalPhone> Been using WiFi for hours without recharge and still at 75%
02:52:26 <FireFly> That's cool
02:52:44 <VorpalPhone> Watched video most off that time too
02:53:41 <VorpalPhone> If you can handle a large phone, this is awesome
02:56:40 <VorpalPhone> One issue is that using the FM radio with the included earphones o
02:56:50 <VorpalPhone> Is noisy
02:57:49 <VorpalPhone> No idea why. Works well with other headphones.
02:58:33 <VorpalPhone> Also the included ones are fine with music player
02:58:43 <VorpalPhone> Night
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03:35:47 <zzo38> Usually a music that modulates into many keys uses equal temperament so that the chords are equal for all keys, which does work OK. But what happen if you write a music that is modulating into many keys, starting and ending on the same key though, and using just intonation tuned for only the starting key, so that the chord vary in the different keys (although you might get wolf tones in some)?
03:38:53 <zzo38> (Doing that, you would have to think more carefully of what keys you modulate to, such as when you want wolf intervals and so on)
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05:07:17 <zzo38> Unuse command in this track.
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06:33:35 <zzo38> The default setting for VRC7 frequencies in PPMCK appears to be based on A440 although it is 2Hz off and the tones vary as much as four cents from equal temperament. This is using 172 for C (the formula is $F={49722x\over2^{19-o}}$ where $x$ is a nine-bit integer and $o$ is a three-bit integer). Setting C to 269 appears to be much closer with up to two cents of variance.
06:34:38 <zzo38> However, this way is no longer tuned to A440 so it will not work if you use channels other than the VRC7 (and possibly noise channels as well), or if you require A440 tuning for any other purpose.
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06:39:56 <zzo38> However, you do get a just perfect fifth of C and G with the 172 based setting.
07:04:25 <Vorpal> zzo38, what about non-western tunings?
07:04:44 <Vorpal> does it support Indian (as in India) music?
07:04:58 <Vorpal> if not, how could you improve the system to support that?
07:05:46 <Sgeo> tswett, update
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07:09:19 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose any octave-based tuning could be used with VRC7, although since the frequency must be a nine-bit integer, the range may be limited so they might not be in tune.
07:09:39 <zzo38> (I have already made PPMCK to support custom tuning)
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07:10:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, iirc Indian music have quarter-notes
07:10:36 <Vorpal> don't remember the the details though
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07:12:06 <zzo38> PPMCK only supports up to sixteen notes per octave though, due to the way the lookup tables are programmed.
07:12:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, you need to improve that
07:14:12 <zzo38> PPMCK only makes .NSF musics and is has a limited ROM space as well as a limited CPU speed
07:14:49 <Vorpal> so optimise it
07:16:46 <zzo38> I did that.
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11:15:21 <mroman> Ok. Found new solution for 90
11:15:56 <mroman> No surprise there
11:16:01 <mroman> as it's 88 + +
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11:19:25 <fizzie> The object-oriented variant of 88.
11:24:35 <mroman> hm?
11:24:48 <fizzie> 88++.
11:24:55 <itidus21> lol
11:25:17 <itidus21> (88++)++
11:25:41 <itidus21> i think i see whats happening
11:25:57 <itidus21> 88 succ succ
11:29:33 <fizzie> It's better just to succ it up.
11:29:38 <kmc> c.c
11:30:57 <itidus21> ive been studying some actual math today
11:31:50 <kmc> wat kind
11:31:50 <mroman> I actually have no idea how +[+[+>]<<+]> works :)
11:32:01 <mroman> except that it dous.
11:32:04 <mroman> *does
11:32:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i don't know if i've read the wikipedia page before, but existential quantifiers
11:34:14 <itidus21> E x in X P(x), V x in X (Px), ~E x in X P(x), ~V x in X (Px)
11:34:23 <itidus21> where E is a backwards E
11:34:33 <itidus21> and V is an upside down A
11:35:12 <kmc> ∃, ∀
11:36:17 <itidus21> i only see the boxes with numbers.. im not sure how to remedy this
11:36:29 <itidus21> maybe windows fault
11:36:47 <mroman> It seems to add 1 to the cell in the middle every 12 cycles
11:36:49 <mroman> *cycles
11:37:06 <kmc> itidus21: whatever font you're using doesn't have those characters
11:37:15 <itidus21> ah ok i see it in this one
11:37:35 <mroman> except for the first and last few cycles.
11:37:58 <itidus21> ive basically been studying control flow
11:38:17 <fizzie> mroman: If I call the cells L, M and R (for left, middle, right), I think it keeps R == 0 as a sentinel, initializes L = 1, C = 3 and then keeps doing L += 3, C += 1 until L wraps around. (Or, rather, L += 2, C += 1, ***, L += 1 where *** is the point where L's wraparound is noticed.)
11:38:19 <mroman> there is a setup to 2
11:38:28 <itidus21> and then i arrived at a page about McCarthy Formalism
11:38:34 <fizzie> mroman: (At least based on how it starts; I haven't checked how it ends.)
11:38:35 <mroman> it set's the cell to 2 and then adds one every 12 cycles
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11:38:58 <mroman> -'
11:39:15 <mroman> R is always 0, yes.
11:39:18 <fizzie> mroman: The +'s in the outermost loop always apply to the left cell, while the [+>] construct increments both the left and middle cells.
11:39:33 <fizzie> (Well, except for at the very start, when the first + applies to the middle cell.)
11:40:33 <itidus21> and then shit just got real
11:42:41 <itidus21> i feel like i'm on the precipice of being an application developer and a computer scientist
11:42:50 <fizzie> 14:42 <fizzie> ,cc uint8_t L = 1, C = 3; while (L) { L += 3; C++; } printf("%d\n", C);
11:42:53 <fizzie> 14:42 <candide> fizzie: 88
11:42:57 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure that's what it does, basically.
11:43:09 <fizzie> (My previous comment on where the L wraparound is checked was worng.)
11:43:19 <itidus21> do people do both?
11:43:47 <kmc> sure
11:43:55 <kmc> what do you do now? what have you done?
11:44:06 <itidus21> ive made trivial apps :P
11:44:40 <itidus21> but, like, theres a reference on this wiki page to Marvin Minsky (1967), Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines
11:44:46 <mroman> hm. cool @fizzie
11:44:51 <itidus21> which is probably massively overkill on explanation
11:45:09 <itidus21> but if i followed it up i would be going down the rabbit hole
11:46:30 <kmc> reading one paper by marvin minsky does not make you a computer scientist
11:46:48 <itidus21> good point
11:50:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++>+[+++<+>]<.! I think it's pretty much the same as this, except saves characters by cleverly getting the setup done somewhat incidentally, and doing that unbalanced loop in place of +>+, which is of course important in getting the setup done.
11:50:31 <fungot> X
11:55:29 <mroman> Ok.
11:55:47 <mroman> I'm currently generating a list of program ranges which I'd like to tackle with a 5k cycle limit.
11:56:14 <fizzie> Also I meant +<+ in my comment, forgot I had swapped the two cells.
11:56:46 <mroman> To bruteforce every program in a range takes approx 1.5h on an i3 Processor.
11:57:00 <mroman> one core :)
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11:57:33 <mroman> So I won't come far on my own :)
11:57:57 <mroman> and 1 range includes 4294967295 programs
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11:58:47 <mroman> some of them not valid brainfuck programs, of course.
11:59:01 <mroman> but those are not interpreted.
11:59:21 <fizzie> Not 4294967296? I would have expected a 2^N, not 2^N-1.
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11:59:59 <mroman> That is ULONG_MAX on a 32bit machine.
12:00:14 <fizzie> But there are ULONG_MAX+1 values in an unsigned long.
12:00:19 <fizzie> From 0 to ULONG_MAX.
12:00:36 <mroman> ah
12:00:37 <mroman> yes.
12:00:44 <mroman> it goes from 0 to ULONG_MAX
12:00:52 <mroman> for(i = 0 to limit)
12:00:52 <fizzie> (Nitpicking is what I do most of the time.)
12:01:09 <mroman> where limit is ULONG_MAX
12:03:55 <mroman> So I thought I publish the program, create a table of ranges in the wiki
12:04:03 <mroman> and people can sign up for them and let them run
12:04:09 <mroman> and publish the results :D
12:08:52 <mroman> first I shall solve some linear first-order inhom. diff. equations.
12:27:16 <mroman> Does the wiki allow to upload text files?
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12:41:01 <mroman> well, there you go.
12:44:34 <mroman> hm.
12:44:43 <mroman> this wiki seems not to like subpages?
12:46:23 <fizzie> I've seen subpages in the User: namespace, at least. But that might be a different thing.
12:47:11 <fizzie> <elliott> I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake
12:47:15 <fizzie> I guess not.
12:47:56 <fizzie> That was in February 2012, though.
12:48:55 <fizzie> Very next line, incidentally: <elliott> because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki
12:49:43 <fizzie> (The Esoteric File Archive, if it was somehow more publicly editable, would I guess be the proper place.)
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13:10:40 <mroman> well.
13:10:45 <mroman> then I have to move it :)
13:12:52 <fizzie> It's not a very great sin, but I suppose it's slightly discouraged. Maybe. I don't really have any knowledge on things having to do with the wiki.
13:13:21 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
13:14:22 <itidus21> i thought i was having a good night but somehow i triggered depression.. maybe i'm too much of a realist
13:16:27 <itidus21> like i have all these cortices in my head designed to process looking at and talking to humans, but days, weeks, years pass just staring at a computer screen
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13:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I
13:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> wow
13:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Warwick University's accomodation application offers "British Antarctic Territories" as a nationality.
13:56:31 <neutrino2000> for completeness
13:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Well it actually /says/ "British Antartic Territories".
13:58:35 <mroman> And if I'm from gibraltar?
13:58:51 <neutrino2000> that's certainly covered, isn't it?
13:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it also has 'England' as a nationality.
13:59:05 <neutrino2000> what about that oil platform that gained independence?
13:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> And yes, it has Gibraltarian.
13:59:29 <neutrino2000> i forgot the name of it, sorry, but it was something funny
13:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> If you mean Sealand, it has next to no formal recognition and in any case was a fort, not an oil platform.
13:59:43 <neutrino2000> thanks for correcting me
13:59:49 <neutrino2000> so sealand is not on?
13:59:54 <neutrino2000> what about the Basque nationality?
14:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
14:00:26 <neutrino2000> that one could be fun, since they're fighting for recognition since about when the stonehenge was new
14:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> WP says Basque nationalism originated in the 19th century,.
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14:02:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It... has Falkland Islander.
14:02:51 <Vorpal> Antartic... nice
14:03:27 <Vorpal> speaking of typos, I once had to put [sic] in a reference list (In my thesis). The paper was from an "Internatonal Conference"
14:03:37 <Vorpal> s/In/in/
14:03:41 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: stop correcting neutrino2000, that's not very polite.
14:03:51 <neutrino2000> Phantom_Hoover: given that the earth is only 4000 years old i'd say that's when the stonehenge was built
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14:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> who is blom?? also who is neutrino2000 i guess
14:04:45 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: guess.
14:05:27 <blom> i am blom entirely by accident
14:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> um
14:06:01 <Vorpal> blom, oklopol?
14:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't think of any notable absences other than elliott, and you don't sound like elliott; oerjan's not here but I don't think he's normally on at this time?
14:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, .fi host.
14:06:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, according to whois this guy is from .fi
14:06:26 <Vorpal> yeah
14:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oko then?
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14:06:35 <oklopol> quite.
14:06:43 <oklopol> I'M NOT NOTABLE HUH
14:06:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think you are notable
14:06:56 <oklopol> :))
14:07:01 * oklopol is notable ^^
14:07:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, don't let that mean Phantom_Hoover make you sad!
14:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well notable as in your absence is presently noteworthy.
14:07:28 <oklopol> true
14:07:36 <oklopol> i'm quite random nowadays
14:07:38 <oklopol> SO MUCH GOING ON
14:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> OK wow, the aforementioned citizenship selection? Doesn't include "United States".
14:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Or "US".
14:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Or even "America", and that was scraping the barrel.
14:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait!
14:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes it does have "American".
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14:22:55 <mroman> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
14:28:11 <mroman> There is a problem that when you pick a range in the middle there is no way to know shortest previous solutions.
14:28:33 <mroman> But that's by design that way.
14:28:58 <mroman> It's not a problem though, you just have to filter them out when somebody in a lower range also found a solution for the same number.
14:44:25 <fizzie> http://i.space.com/images/i/4460/original/Apollo-11-Immigration-02.jpg "Departure from: MOON"
14:47:18 <quintopia> does the law really consider the moon a different country?
14:47:23 <quintopia> thats silly
14:47:31 <quintopia> the moon is american land
14:48:04 <fizzie> The article that accompanied the image said they were having one of those "joke" things.
14:48:37 <quintopia> makes sense
14:49:06 <fizzie> It's a bit vague to say just "MOON" when what is asked is "Place and Country". That's about 38 million square kilometres.
14:50:25 <quintopia> it's not so big. in the middle of the night when it's full, i can cover it with my thumb, arm extended
14:50:52 <kmc> "Any other condition on board which may lead to the spread of disease: TO BE DETERMINED"
14:51:06 <fizzie> Well, they *did* sit in a quarantine for some weeks.
14:51:13 <kmc> yep
14:51:14 <fizzie> For all those MOON GERMS.
14:51:18 <kmc> don't wanna get moonpox
14:54:05 <kmc> there should be a brainfuck derivative with distributed message-passing
14:54:09 <kmc> called clusterfuck
14:54:55 <fizzie> "there should be a brainfick derivative" is the objectively best initial substring a sentence can have.
14:55:09 <kmc> obviously
14:56:58 <fizzie> Today's new newsgroup at the local Usenet server: alt.paul-derbyshire.fix.it.now. (The client reports all new groups.)
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16:22:56 <Gregor> nortti: Your C2BF online yet?
16:28:12 -!- neutrino2000 has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:29:25 <quintopia> Gregor: is egobot umlboxed yet?
16:30:08 <Gregor> quintopia: Do you have an hg bundle for bfjoust to use the new scoring system yet?
16:31:05 <quintopia> Gregor: i dont know how. anyway, it only needs to change like four files, and they are all in that archive i gave you.
16:31:18 <Gregor> ... you gave me an archive???
16:31:27 <quintopia> besides, hg can't make sure you have clapack installed can it?
16:31:28 <Gregor> I thought we just talked about how to send it and then I never got an actual link.
16:32:06 <quintopia> uh nope, definitely gave you a link sometime last weekish
16:32:18 <quintopia> might have @tell'd it?
16:32:42 <Gregor> @messages
16:32:43 <lambdabot> quintopia said 5d 14h 48m 56s ago: http://www.filedropper.com/newbfjousttar and ask about the bug in gearlance
16:32:46 <Gregor> ..........
16:32:50 <Gregor> lambdabot: WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED
16:33:23 <quintopia> you said something to the channel just moment after i sent that as i recall
16:33:30 <quintopia> so i'd assumed you'd seen it
16:33:40 <Gregor> So about how that link seems dead >_>
16:33:58 <AnotherTest1> ugh I no longer understand my new esolang
16:34:06 <quintopia> well they delete files if no one downloads them :P
16:34:28 <quintopia> i'll reupload in a minute
16:37:03 <nortti> Gregor: no, I havn't been able to access my computer since last saturday
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17:19:14 <Gregor> nortti: Do you have a github account, so I can at least point the guy there and say "it should appear here sometime" X-D
17:19:28 -!- MDoze has changed nick to MDude.
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17:35:08 <nortti> Gregor: yes. JuEeHa
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18:15:45 <nortti> ^rainbow *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:15:46 <fungot> *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:17:56 <quintopia> no
18:18:13 <nortti> what?
18:19:28 <quintopia> it looks better if each color is repeated for 2 chars before switching
18:19:42 <quintopia> fungot: get on that, will you?
18:19:43 <fungot> quintopia: i used to have some ostensible reason for visiting somewhere. " i'm giving you an illusionary effect of adding 2 to t
18:28:13 <mroman> ^rainbow ^rainbow ^rainbow
18:28:14 <fungot> ^rainbow ^rainbow
18:28:44 <mroman> ^bf_textgen ^rainbow
18:28:53 <mroman> or was it
18:28:59 <mroman> !bf_textgen ^rainbow
18:29:14 <mroman> !help
18:29:15 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:29:21 <mroman> !bf_txtgen ^rainbow
18:29:24 <EgoBot> ​93 +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---. [505]
18:29:38 <mroman> ^rainbow ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:39 <fungot> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:29:56 <mroman> ^rainbow !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:57 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:30:51 <mroman> あきらめる…
18:33:26 <FireFly> !bf_txtgen ^rainbow hello
18:33:28 <EgoBot> ​147 ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<. [981]
18:33:38 <FireFly> !bf ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<.
18:33:40 <EgoBot> ​^rainbow hello
18:33:58 <FireFly> I guesss the bots are protected against triggering each other
18:34:05 <FireFly> probably a nick blacklist
18:35:28 <asiekierka_> That feel
18:35:28 <lambdabot> asiekierka_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:35:37 <asiekierka_> when your VPS provider gives you a IP
18:35:42 <asiekierka_> and you want to host a Minecraft server
18:35:46 <asiekierka_> but your players run Hamachi.
18:35:56 <mroman> fail
18:36:05 <FireFly> Get better players
18:36:48 <fizzie> FireFly: fungot has an ignore list, some (Gregor-bots?) also add a zero-width space in front of output so it doesn't trigger commands.
18:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: afk for a while)
18:37:31 <FireFly> Hm, that's a clever trick
18:37:56 <Gregor> © 2011 Gregor Richards, all rights reserved
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18:38:12 <Gregor> It only adds it when the first character doesn't match [a-zA-Z0-9], btw.
18:38:13 <fizzie> Gregor: US patent #?
18:38:24 <fizzie> Even fancier.
18:40:28 <asiekierka_> is there a DNS hack to add a fallback IP address?
18:40:34 <asiekierka_> as we have a IP :<
18:42:48 <fizzie> I'm no Hamachi expert, but I've a feeling that you're just SOL no matter what DNS trickery you do, since it sounds likely Hamachi eats all 5/8 routing, and that's the IP your user eventually needs to communicate with.
18:45:36 <fizzie> A manual single-IP route for your IP (with the default gateway) sounds possibly worky, but hard to configure, and would need to be done by the affected user.
18:50:21 <asiekierka_> yes.
18:50:35 <asiekierka_> and the problem is, most European VPS providers are ONLY offering now
18:50:43 <asiekierka_> and LogMeIn will probably not bother fixing it
18:50:56 <asiekierka_> essentially LogeMeIn will blame it on my provider and my provider will blame it on LogMeIn
18:50:57 <shachaf> kmc: The new #haskell, eh?
18:51:04 <asiekierka_> and the guy who has a dedi which hosts my VPS doesn't want to deal with tech supportr
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18:53:11 <fizzie> LogMeIn can blame providers until they turn blue, doesn't make their address land grab any more legitimate.
18:57:44 <asiekierka_> So what do I do?
18:58:02 <asiekierka_> As an early representative of the newly emerging group of Screwed IP Owners
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18:59:05 <Gregor> Aren't there reserved ranges they could've grabbed so long as they obviously don't care about rules X_X
18:59:17 <Gregor> Or, y'know, take some IPs from IBM :)
18:59:35 <fizzie> I think your options are somewhat limited to noisy complaining. Though there's a couple of those on the LogMeIn community forums already, and it doesn't seem to help.
19:00:20 <fizzie> There's the usual private IP blocks, but they didn't want conflicts with people's LANs. (I guess conflicts with the Internet are better.)
19:00:33 <asiekierka_> Does anyone use
19:00:36 <asiekierka_> ...Really?
19:00:49 <fizzie> I might.
19:01:13 <fizzie> Wait, no, it's just below 128. But it was an arbitrarily chosen byte.
19:01:22 <asiekierka_> 127?
19:01:23 <asiekierka_> :P
19:01:39 <fizzie> It's below 128 because it's the ASCII 'f' for 'fizzie'.
19:02:25 <asiekierka_> Lol
19:02:53 <asiekierka_> So I guess stophamachi.org time?
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19:03:05 <asiekierka_> Oh wait.
19:03:08 <asiekierka_> The target won't even get there.
19:04:57 <tswett> Whoa. Tommi Paalanen's last name ends with "la" *and* "nen".
19:06:05 <oerjan> tswett: shocking!
19:06:08 <tswett> Although "paa" doesn't seem to be a word. Maybe it's supposed to be Päälänen.
19:06:46 <fizzie> Moilanen is a more common surname (8571 current owners) and also does.
19:07:16 <fizzie> (589 for Paalanen.)
19:07:48 <tswett> My lifetime goal is to move to Finland and register cka.fi.
19:11:49 <Gregor> That's a really pathetic goal.
19:12:03 <tswett> My favorite hobby is placing objects on top of cars.
19:12:12 <Gregor> MY lifetime goal is to figure out who bought libc.so, find him, and "convince" him to sell it to me on the cheap.
19:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that kind of thing public information?
19:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also by 'on the cheap' I presume you mean like $10,000.
19:13:19 <tswett> libc.so, the domain name.
19:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you weren't there?
19:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor had money set aside and everything.
19:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> A lot of money, despite what he claims.
19:14:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The registrar has one of those "domain privacy" systems, so technically the owner is the registrar, and they're on file.
19:18:23 <fizzie> Gregor: You just start a lawsuit against a John Doe, ask for discovery against the registrar, and subpoena them. Or something like that. (If it works for people making money out of copyright lawsuit threat settlements...)
19:18:34 <Gregor> lol
19:18:44 <Gregor> The only tiny minor issue is that nothing they've done is even borderline illegal ;)
19:19:24 <quintopia> Gregor: try the link again
19:20:16 <fizzie> Yes, but the courts certainly don't check that, or expect evidence. They always drop the suits after they've subpoenaed the IP -> name, address mappings out of the ISPs in question.
19:20:22 <Gregor> quintopia: Got it.
19:22:36 <fizzie> Speaking of Hamachi and reserved ranges, there's still that whole 240/4 block (that's like 16 /8s) that's reserved for future extensions. But maybe they were worried there'd be technical issues there.
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19:33:06 <tswett> Technical issues involved in assigning the 240 block?
19:41:39 <fizzie> Technical issues involved in just starting to use it. I suppose some sanity checks might barf at such addresses.
19:42:24 <oerjan> insane sanity checks, the best kind
19:42:50 <fizzie> At least the 5/8 addresses are perfectly kosher. (They just belong to someone else.)
19:43:16 <oerjan> could those someone else sue them?
19:44:36 <fizzie> It's at least not completely impossible. Interfering with their legitimate business and whatnot. But I'm not a lawyer.
19:45:18 <fizzie> There was one forum posting where the author said he'd received a reply from LogMeIn that they're working on a "fix", but no details or ETA.
19:46:07 <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts.
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19:52:00 * edwardk continues stalking kmc.
19:52:06 <Taneb> Hello!
19:52:10 <oerjan> eek, prepare for incoming prepromorphisms
19:52:26 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:52:49 <Taneb> I've just got back from an open day at Oxford
19:53:40 <edwardk> while guilty of packaging up the only libraries for manipulating prepromorphisms, i don't actually like or use them ;)
19:54:21 <edwardk> here i'd be more likely to ramble on about generalized de bruijn indices and locally nameless syntax tree representations
19:54:37 <edwardk> though i guess the effect on the audience would be largely indistinguishable
19:54:57 <oerjan> well that's just until you manage to combine them...
19:55:31 <edwardk> well, i _do_ have catamorphisms for tearing down such generalized de bruijn indices, just i've never bothered to build a version of a prepro or postpromorphism ;)
19:56:02 <edwardk> you can appeal to neal ghani's "initial algebra semantics are enough" to work with them even though the ADT isn't uniform
19:56:12 <Taneb> While guilty of packaging up the only library for manipulating family trees, I really love and try to make them :)
19:56:20 <edwardk> =)
19:56:30 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts. <-- why don't they just switch to a different range?
19:56:47 <Vorpal> like 10.something
19:57:01 <oerjan> if you think your family fits into a tree, someone has been hiding secrets from you
19:57:02 <Vorpal> you don't even need a whole /8 for a VPN, that is kind of silly
19:57:19 <Vorpal> a /16 seems reasonable to me.
19:57:25 <Vorpal> or a /20 perhaps
19:58:02 <Vorpal> (there is no need to conform to the old class sizes after all)
19:58:12 <Vorpal> also they could go ipv6
19:58:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: AIUI, their "VPN" is a global thing. You're supposed to be able to connect to other Hamachi hosts, and the addresses are globally unique. (But I might be wrong.)
19:58:15 <shachaf> hedwardk!
19:58:21 <Vorpal> hm
19:58:25 <edwardk> hachaf
19:58:30 <oerjan> "Note, the signature of these has changed, because it was insufficiently general, [...]"
19:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems like a pointless VPN then. Since it takes the P out of VPN
19:58:51 <edwardk> oerjan: is that a quote of me from somewhere? =)
19:59:05 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/a/5058725/1088108
19:59:18 <edwardk> aha
19:59:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's transparently encryptamated and stuffs, plus handles NAT traversal. And it might have some sort of smaller networks. I really only know what I've gleaned from random reading.
20:00:03 <edwardk> need to wander around and mingle, brb
20:00:04 <Vorpal> ah okay
20:00:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:00:11 <Taneb> oerjan, the non-tree-iness of family trees is why nobody likes implementing them
20:00:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, their official reason for not going with 10/8 is that too many people have LANs in there.
20:00:31 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, you had the issue right? Why not switch to a different VPN solution, such as OpenVPN?
20:00:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was his users.
20:01:01 <asiekierka_> Vorpal - no
20:01:03 <asiekierka_> my users did
20:01:05 <Vorpal> well, they just need to install openvpn as well
20:01:06 <asiekierka_> some have to use VPN
20:01:15 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, for minecraft? come on
20:01:22 <Vorpal> there is no need for NAT traversal there
20:01:25 <oerjan> it's a little known secret that monogamy was invented by really angry genealogists to simplify things
20:02:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Presumably they need it for other things. Whatever it's good for. And you can't really unilaterally switch VPN solutions, the other end needs to cooperate.
20:03:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, since hamachi is broken (not following IANA assignments) I don't see why any self-respecting server admin would support it
20:04:04 <fizzie> Hamachi has some sort of zero-conf dealie, and doesn't (AIUI, again) need any participant to have a clearly defined server role.
20:04:29 <fizzie> It might b "slightly" difficult to convince all your friends to switch to OpenVPN or whatever.
20:04:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, he has a server (VPS I think he said?), he can provide the such a server role
20:05:30 <Vorpal> anyway configuring OpenVPN is easy enough. By far easier than setting up IPsec for example.
20:06:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, another trivially easy option would be ssh tunneling btw
20:06:55 <Vorpal> (it is quite easy to create limited accounts)
20:07:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: If he just has user X who uses Hamachi to do stuffs with the user's friends A, B and C who otherwise won't have anything to do with him, I doubt (a) he's be interested in doing VPN for them, and (b) A, B, C switching to some random dude's VPN mess.
20:07:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway since he can't provide hamachi he might just as well provide openvpn as an option if they are that interested in his server
20:08:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, if they only happen to need hamachi for other stuff (rather than his server) and that thus collides that would be easy to solve
20:08:47 <Vorpal> just something like ip route <specific address> dev eth0 I /think/
20:08:59 <Taneb> This reminds me, can anyone recommend a Scala tutorial?
20:09:10 <Vorpal> iirc the routing table works by most specific first, right?
20:10:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It would need the gateway address, not just "dev eth0", and that's often dynamic. Also, from general statistics random users are nontechnical Windows users. (I did suggest a single-IP route.)
20:10:24 <Vorpal> ah it is ip route add to <specific address goes here> eth0 (or wlan0 or whatever your non-hamachi thingy is)
20:10:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, okay true
20:10:42 <Vorpal> but you can just look at your default route to figure out what the gateway is
20:11:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm pretty sure you can add custom routes under windows from within the adapter properties
20:11:53 <Vorpal> so you could just provide a screenshot guide
20:12:08 <Vorpal> anyone can follow those
20:12:47 <fizzie> Personally, I'd just complain. It's likely they'll invent *some* kind of terrible workaround sooner or later.
20:12:54 <Vorpal> right
20:13:31 <Vorpal> another option: write a tiny windows program that does this for the user. Very simple to use: just double click and okay the UAC warning
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20:15:03 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too simple to write, though, even assuming it's okey just to support from XP to 7.
20:15:24 <Vorpal> well, you would need to read some API docs sure
20:15:36 <fizzie> Windows APIs aren't always the most pleasant.
20:15:44 <Vorpal> but if things like AICCU manages to mess around with such things...
20:16:07 <Vorpal> (that only messes with ipv6 routing, but the process should be similar)
20:16:40 <Vorpal> speaking of which, what APIs do commands like ip route use under linux...
20:16:42 * Vorpal straces
20:16:50 <fizzie> Netlink.
20:16:56 <fizzie> It's perfectly horrible.
20:17:06 <fizzie> Also really badly documented.
20:17:10 <Vorpal> riiight
20:17:26 <Vorpal> why
20:17:40 <Vorpal> also what did they use to do? iirc netlink was added during 2.6?
20:17:49 <fizzie> There's also all kinds of outdated ioctl-based duplicate ways of doing some of the same things, that ipconfig/route use.
20:18:12 <fizzie> But I'm under the impression iproute is fully (rt)netlink-based.
20:18:31 <Vorpal> hm the old route command doesn't use netlink indeed
20:18:44 <Vorpal> ipconfig?
20:18:46 <Vorpal> you mean ifconfig?
20:18:50 <fizzie> ifconfig, yes.
20:18:55 <Vorpal> ipconfig is windows
20:19:01 <fizzie> I know.
20:19:16 <Vorpal> anyway ifconfig is much nicer if you just want to check ip and mac and what not for your network adapters
20:19:34 <fizzie> The 'ip' tool itself is kind of awkward if you go to esoteric enough things.
20:19:41 <Vorpal> well yes
20:20:01 <fizzie> There's undocumented stuffs and such.
20:20:04 <Vorpal> I guess you mean stuff like bonding?
20:20:10 <Vorpal> there is undocumented things? Really?
20:20:14 <Vorpal> such as?
20:21:23 <Vorpal> also I don't see the point of netlink. Why a special socket type just to configure networking? Using ioctls seems so much cleaner for this
20:22:24 <fizzie> IPv6 neighbour-discovery proxy stuff is/was quite a mess. The netlink API lets you add stuff, but there's no way to list what you've added, for example.
20:22:40 <Vorpal> neighbour-discovery proxy stuff? huh?
20:22:42 <Vorpal> what is that
20:23:06 <fizzie> Something rather uncommon. It's like proxy-ARP but for IPv6.
20:23:15 <Vorpal> I have no idea what proxy-ARP is
20:24:02 <Vorpal> oh right, just read a bit on wikipedia about it
20:24:16 <Vorpal> sounds vaguely familiar
20:24:37 <fizzie> It's when you configure one box to say "hey, I'm here" for ARP requests to boxes "behind" it, because the other end is not interested in configuring routing rules, just route a /X to the network that your proxy-ARP box is connected to.
20:24:41 <Vorpal> eh, this seems open to security issues
20:25:50 <fizzie> (The cleaner way would of course be if they'd just route some a/b with your box as the gateway, so that you could then just forward.)
20:26:02 <Vorpal> indeed
20:27:06 <Vorpal> hm mobile ip uses it?
20:27:12 <Vorpal> but who uses mobile ip...
20:27:25 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a RFC so it's a respectable technique. :p
20:27:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, the security issues seem rampant with it though
20:28:08 <Vorpal> you could use this on a normal network for DoS easily
20:29:07 <fizzie> That's not really a *proxy*-ARP security issue, just an ARP one.
20:29:51 <Vorpal> well okay, true
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20:30:31 <fizzie> I'm suddenly left wondering how many working, actively used IPX networks there are around.
20:30:49 <oklopol> "Dear Dr [oklopol], Thank you very much for reviewing the manuscript entitled [stuff]. Following your advice this paper has been rejected." thanks, totally wanted to know :D
20:31:18 <Vorpal> so the only real secure way is to statically configure the ARP cache in your switch and then make it filter ARP messages?
20:31:27 <Vorpal> hm...
20:31:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or just use end-to-end IPsec with authentication.
20:31:51 <fizzie> So you'll notice pretenders.
20:31:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could still cause DoS in a switch
20:32:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Are you actually a Dr. oklopol?
20:32:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes. But you could also connect the switch port to 230V AC and cause a DoS issue.
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20:34:36 <fizzie> There's certain amount of trust involved in an Ethernet network. I ecpect you could also collide everything (or selected packets if you're real fast) to stop traffic.
20:35:00 <shachaf> "certain amount"
20:35:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but imagine you run a data center, one attack is possible if any of your customer's servers are compromised. The other requires physical access
20:35:44 <oklopol> fizzie: no.
20:35:50 <oklopol> i know, i'm a loser
20:36:21 <oklopol> but i guess they just assume the referees are usually phds or something, and don't bother to personalize
20:37:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you can't collide a switched network as far as I know? And there is full duplex to the switch. You could overload it (unless there was QoS of course), but not collide.
20:37:05 <fizzie> oklopol: It's also polite to do the mistakes only upwards. I've gotten some "Prof. [fizzie]" emails.
20:37:13 <oklopol> :D
20:37:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, an ARP attack seems like a larger issue than the ones you suggested
20:40:25 <oklopol> Dear all powerful divine ruler of heavens [recipient]
20:41:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think managed switches do mitigate some ARP problems. But I'm no networkist. And it probably depends on the competence of the data centre staff.
20:41:26 <oklopol> fizzie: have you ever gotten "Free Publication Invitation"s?
20:41:28 <Vorpal> right
20:41:35 <oklopol> we got one some weeks back
20:42:03 <oklopol> from Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence
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20:42:23 <fizzie> oklopol: What does one do?
20:42:25 <oklopol> based on our paper on CA which had nothing to do with computation
20:42:53 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't understand the quesiton
20:42:57 <oklopol> *question
20:43:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, managed switches can be kind of crazy sometimes. When I did my bachelor thesis I needed to get a phone on a guest net communicating with a server on the secure network of that company. The network guys spent hours to try to get it to work with various routing in their top router and what not, only to find that some previous network admin had setup some filters in the access point itself. I saw h
20:43:18 <Vorpal> im sitting in some crazy Cisco setup program
20:43:25 <Vorpal> looked really complicated
20:43:31 <Vorpal> and that was for a switch
20:43:37 <Vorpal> the router one looked even worse
20:45:03 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, so it's like "we'd like to publish this paper"?
20:45:04 <oklopol> fizzie: i was just wondering if it's a thing or if it's the weirdest spam ever
20:45:13 <oklopol> yes, what did you think
20:45:19 <oklopol> erm
20:45:21 <oklopol> no
20:45:23 <oklopol> just
20:45:33 <oklopol> we'd like to publish some new paper of yours.
20:45:47 <oklopol> since we really liked this paper of yours which has nothing to do with our journal
20:46:27 <fizzie> oklopol: Right, *that* is what I thought. It sounds reasonably legitimate, as long as they're not offering a free pass through peer review too.
20:46:30 <oklopol> (it was in a publication many of whose articles could certainly go to the free publication offering journal)
20:46:57 <oklopol> Your paper will be published with no charge if accepted.
20:47:36 <Vorpal> with no charge? Why do they even have to point that out...
20:47:41 <oklopol> the offer stands for 3 more days.
20:47:52 <oklopol> err, journals usually cost something to publish in
20:48:02 <Vorpal> oh? really? huh
20:48:15 <oklopol> yeah, peer review is so hard to do.
20:48:28 <Vorpal> well, it does involve some work certainly...
20:48:37 <fizzie> Well, not *always*. I don't know how it is on the math side, though.
20:48:39 <Vorpal> (at least to do it properly)
20:48:51 <oklopol> well i'm constantly doing peer review free of charge
20:48:59 <Vorpal> ah...
20:49:10 <oklopol> so dunno where the costs come really
20:49:35 <fizzie> IEEE journals generally, AFAIK, only charge if you have too many pages.
20:49:38 <oklopol> fizzie: i have zero journal publications, so i know rather little
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20:49:56 <Vorpal> so what expenses does a journal have? You need like a web site, an editor. There are printing costs unless it is an online publication I guess
20:50:13 <Vorpal> subscription costs should cover that, surely?
20:50:22 <oklopol> surely
20:50:50 <oklopol> universities subscribe to everything in the world
20:50:58 <Vorpal> yes they tend to do that
20:50:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given how big the subscription costs are, you'd *think* so. But there's some work in running the review stuff even if the actual reviewers are free.
20:51:10 <Vorpal> I guess the thing I will miss most from university is the IEEE xplore access
20:51:16 <Vorpal> not sure how to manage without that!
20:51:40 <oklopol> yeah that would suck
20:53:19 <fizzie> IEEE "computing library" package ("core journals" + limited downloads to "key articles" from Xplore) is only $21995/year, you could buy that.
20:53:28 <Vorpal> whoa
20:53:31 <Vorpal> that much?
20:53:43 <Vorpal> that is insane
20:53:58 <Vorpal> I wonder how much profit IEEE has on that
20:54:07 <oklopol> holy shit :D
20:54:28 <fizzie> $49795 for the "all-society periodicals package".
20:54:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I need to write a script to dump everything I can or so
20:54:47 <oklopol> yeah was just thinking that
20:54:50 <fizzie> That's probably against the access terms.
20:54:54 <oklopol> in case i get fired
20:54:55 <Vorpal> probably
20:55:14 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i will, i haven't proved anything this week.
20:55:22 <Vorpal> heh
20:55:25 <fizzie> I don't even want to guesstimate how much the unlimited-period archive access is.
20:55:47 <fizzie> $64495 for online access to all IEEE conference proceedings.
20:56:14 <oklopol> what does IEEE cover? is that like, all the boring CS?
20:56:27 <fizzie> Pretty much.
20:56:35 <Vorpal> what about ACM?
20:56:38 <fizzie> Also other engineering.
20:56:44 <oklopol> ewwww
20:56:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does ACM cost?
20:57:03 <Vorpal> I used IEEE way more than ACM though
20:57:32 <fizzie> I think ACM had somewhat more reasonable fees for a single person. For an institution, it's probably something absurd.
20:57:53 <oklopol> anyhow you can put your articles on your own page even if you publish them, at least with most publishers
20:58:06 <oklopol> so i don't get why anyone wouldn't
20:58:26 <fizzie> With IEEE you sort-of can, with some restrictions.
20:59:05 <oklopol> the springer copyright form i always have to sign at least lets you do that (it's always a slightly different form for some reason)
20:59:05 <Vorpal> oh? what restrictions?
20:59:16 <oklopol> (but with what seems to be the same data)
20:59:29 <fizzie> I've forgotten the details. At least you have to tell them about it.
20:59:42 <oklopol> i just put my articles up as such and hope i don't get in trouble.
20:59:43 <Vorpal> right, telling them about it seems reasonable
20:59:50 <oklopol> perhaps you should change the name or something
21:00:22 <fizzie> IEEE copyright assignment form is an actual copyright assignment; with some of the others, you just grant them a non-exclusive license.
21:00:38 <Vorpal> huh
21:00:44 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to publish there then
21:01:03 <fizzie> In the latter case you can obvsly put them wherever.
21:01:23 <oklopol> i talked to my supervisor about the springer copyright and he was like huh, you actually read that?
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21:01:50 <oklopol> for springer, you can't publish elsewhere for a year
21:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway how does that work internationally, iirc you can't sign away copyright in Swedish law (you can sign away the monetary rights, but not the artistic or intellectual rights)
21:01:57 <oklopol> so i guess it assigns copyright
21:02:18 <fizzie> oklopol: It could also be an exclusive sort of license contract.
21:02:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have zero idea about the actual legalities. But that's what their form says, anyway.
21:02:52 <Vorpal> hmm
21:03:06 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=springer%20copyright&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springer.com%2Fcda%2Fcontent%2Fdocument%2Fcda_downloaddocument%2Fcopyrightlncs.pdf%3FSGWID%3D0-0-45-154182-0&ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg&usg=AFQjCNGIqEDAa4JGXh7hI6AzPvkShTLv1w
21:03:11 <oklopol> link to the pdf
21:03:15 <oklopol> how pretty.
21:03:24 <Vorpal> why through google? why not direct?
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21:03:42 <oklopol> because clicking on that downloaded that so it was faster like this
21:04:05 <oklopol> but i never remember google has all my search history and the color of my underpants encoded in the url
21:05:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Some Helsinki University library budget mentions they spent one million euros for an "Elsevier package", and about two million in the first half of the year for journal subscriptions and e-books.
21:05:12 <Vorpal> right, I wonder if there is a web site that allows you to easily extract what is known of the structure of that
21:05:24 <fizzie> (This is a random meeting memo so it's a bit vague.)
21:05:33 <Vorpal> I mean I have no idea what the ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg bit means for example
21:05:37 <oklopol> o_O
21:05:40 <Vorpal> the q= is obviously the search term
21:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, Elsevier?
21:06:28 <Vorpal> oh, ebooks?
21:06:36 <fizzie> It's a big publishing company.
21:06:43 <fizzie> Lots of journals.
21:06:44 <oklopol> evil one
21:07:15 <oklopol> evil-seer
21:08:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: ACM digital library is $2000 to $17462 for an academic institution, depending on your "Tier". (Basically, amount of usage.)
21:08:09 <Vorpal> haha
21:08:24 <Vorpal> these numbers are so crazy
21:09:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually I have a (second-author) paper in an Elsevier journal that just two weeks ago got the final acceptance letter.
21:09:31 <fizzie> They asked some bizarre questions.
21:09:36 <Vorpal> like what?
21:11:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/cOhM -- nothing too strange, but that's a pretty random list.
21:12:15 <fizzie> Don't know if Arthritis Research UK
21:12:24 <oklopol> us government is on springers thing too
21:12:27 <fizzie> funds a lot of speech recognition work.
21:12:54 <fizzie> Or the British Heart Foundation.
21:13:17 <Vorpal> why that specific list I wonder
21:13:49 <oklopol> okay the last part if very weird
21:14:04 <Vorpal> I wonder what "Telethon Italy" is... I can only find Italian pages when googling
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21:16:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is up with the line breaks and the leading + in that paste btw?
21:16:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Email client line-wrap indicator.
21:16:59 <Vorpal> ah
21:17:32 <Vorpal> rather dumb line wrapping, doesn't even handle the indentation correctly
21:17:59 <fizzie> I don't think it should.
21:18:36 <Vorpal> oh?
21:19:23 <Vorpal> hm, the android youtube app seems to be devoid of the usual youtube ads. How surprising
21:19:26 <fizzie> It's not like e.g. Emacs would add empty space at start of continuation lines even if the lines were indented, either.
21:22:59 <Vorpal> true
21:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, LaTeX would though
21:25:22 <fizzie> Well, that's different kind of line wrapping. This was just from edge of terminal, with a continuation line indicator.
21:26:01 <fizzie> Perhaps mutt has some actual wrap-to-specified-width functionality too, not sure.
21:35:43 <Taneb> Hey, should I try to learn Java, or should I go back to Python?
21:35:47 <Taneb> YOU DECIDE
21:35:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, why those two languages?
21:36:08 <Vorpal> why not something like x86 asm or haskell?
21:36:17 <Taneb> I'm on Haskell at the moment
21:36:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, so x86 asm it is then
21:36:27 <Taneb> And the man said an imperative language would help
21:36:33 <Vorpal> what man?
21:36:52 <Gregor> http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/track?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=xx-XX&trackNums=1Z317F350356043847&track.y=10l
21:36:54 <Taneb> The man at the Oxford University Open Day in the Computer Science section
21:36:57 <Gregor> Apparently they just give my package to hookers now.
21:37:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, err, they would help with what?
21:37:24 <Taneb> First year, there's a module of Scala
21:37:31 <Vorpal> java is only useful because it is faster than python and runs on many platforms. Such as Android
21:37:37 <Taneb> And the man wanted to teach everyone Scala
21:38:03 <Taneb> And he said Java and/or Python are good background
21:38:16 <Vorpal> virtually all Java programming I have done has either been for android, or server and desktop software to complement those android programs
21:38:42 <Vorpal> brb
21:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, best plan: learn Scala.
21:45:50 <fizzie> Taneb: x86 asm is certainly very imperative, FWIW.
21:45:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's the long term plan
21:46:12 <Taneb> Short term plan is to avoid Scala as much at possible
21:46:38 <Taneb> fizzie, but that's more blow-y up launch all the missiles than C!
21:46:54 <fizzie> Medium-term plan is to paradoxically both learn *and* avoid Scala.
21:48:10 <fizzie> There's alwaysthe coin-flip solution.
21:48:33 <Taneb> fizzie, medium term plan is to learn enough about the emperors from Tiberius to Domitian such that I don't regret my option choices
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Option choices for what?
21:49:33 <Taneb> A levels
21:49:47 <Taneb> You're in Scotland so you call them silly things like "Highers"
21:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait I forget, are you in your last year of school now or not.
21:50:21 <fizzie> Highlanders. There can be only one (choice).
21:50:23 <Taneb> SORT OF
21:50:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Highers ~ AS-levels.
21:50:34 <Taneb> Will be certainly in September
21:50:38 <Taneb> EVEN HIGHERS
21:50:47 <fizzie> Are there ASS levels, too?
21:51:05 <Taneb> Nah, it goes AS to A2 for some stupid reason
21:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Advanced Highers are A2 but better.
21:53:36 <Taneb> Apparently, Python is available on Mac OS X /and/ Unix systems!
21:53:38 <fizzie> There was some sort of letter code for foreign languages depending on how early you started them. I think I had A1 Swedish, A2 English and B2 German.
21:53:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, also windows
21:54:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, besides the point
21:54:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, and java is available on that and many more platforms
21:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> And FreeBSD!
21:54:08 <Vorpal> such as J2ME
21:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> And Solaris!
21:54:11 <Taneb> And Linux!
21:54:19 <Taneb> (ruined it :)
21:54:21 <Taneb> )
21:54:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Java is available only on the Atari 5200, I think.
21:54:28 <Taneb> Aaaaah xkcd is right
21:54:30 <Taneb> aaaaaaah
21:54:31 <Taneb> aaaaaaah
21:54:37 <Vorpal> what?
21:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what
21:54:48 <Taneb> smileys and parentheses
21:54:55 <Vorpal> eh?
21:55:19 <Vorpal> I don't remember such an xkcd
21:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's awkward to fit smilies at the end of parenthetical statements.
21:55:25 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/541/
21:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> It was after it went to shit.
21:55:29 <Vorpal> well yes
21:55:32 <Vorpal> it is
21:55:38 <Vorpal> unless it is something like :D or :P
21:55:59 <fizzie> :P) can look like a malformed nose too.
21:56:16 <Taneb> (how about this :C)
21:56:22 <Taneb> Still a nose, dammit
21:56:29 <Taneb> (how about C:)
21:56:35 <Taneb> UPSIDE DOWN AAARGH
21:56:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, what about -_- style smilies
21:57:01 <Vorpal> non-rotated that is
21:57:11 <Taneb> (pretty good ^_^)
21:58:02 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't know a non-rotated equivalent to ":)" though
22:01:21 * oerjan puts on his birthday hat <:)
22:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> so you're like 60 now?
22:03:57 <oerjan> well, closer.
22:04:05 <shachaf> Happy oerjan++ !
22:04:15 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:04:26 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't worry, soon you'll be getting farther and farther from 60 every birthday.
22:04:43 <oerjan> "soon".
22:05:04 <oerjan> and thanks
22:06:00 <fizzie> Taneb: In ^_^) the paren looks like some sort of an ear thing.
22:06:09 <Taneb> Oh dear god
22:06:18 <Taneb> What have you done, Randall
22:06:23 <Taneb> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
22:06:55 <oerjan> doomed our civilization, that's what
22:07:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a phone
22:07:29 <fizzie> oerjan: When it's chri... I mean, year-end-holiday-time, you can just concatenate an asterisk to get a thematically appropriate *<:) hat.
22:07:29 <Vorpal> the ) that is
22:07:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: And ^_^D is a N-gage owner.
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22:21:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
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22:48:22 <Taneb> Goodnight!
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23:02:05 <Vorpal> yeah, night too
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23:12:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>+)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*15>>(>--[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
23:12:51 <quintopia> egobot?
23:13:04 * quintopia prods EgoBot
23:14:51 * quintopia chops EgoBot =====/‾\
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