←2012-06-27 2012-06-28 2012-06-29→ ↑2012 ↑all
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01:23:46 <tswett> Hi. I'm looking for a DBMS where I can easily browse through tables, click things in order to insert new rows, and display data in various graphical ways.
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01:24:38 <tswett> As nice as SQL is, if I want to view an entire table, I do not want to type "SELECT * FROM mytable" and browse through the output on my terminal.
01:25:45 <tswett> As barfworthy as Microsoft is, Microsoft Access does pretty much everything I want, except be free.
01:26:16 <quintopia> phpMyAdmin does most of that
01:26:38 <quintopia> i don't know if people still use that
01:26:42 <quintopia> i haven't used it in years
01:27:15 <tswett> I've tried phpMyAdmin, and it's pretty nice, but I'd like to have something self-contained.
01:28:25 <quintopia> apparently you can buy books on the subject
01:29:23 <quintopia> http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/ here's some thingy
01:29:51 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_database_tools anyd this list
01:32:40 <quintopia> !help
01:32:40 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:32:49 <quintopia> !bf_txtgen help
01:32:51 <EgoBot> ​56 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++.++++.>++. [303]
01:33:28 <quintopia> oh cmon egobot, you can do better than that
01:34:18 <quintopia> !bf ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+<<-]>.---.+++++++.++++.>++.
01:34:18 <EgoBot> help
01:34:30 <quintopia> boom egobot. four characters shorter!
01:39:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust :( +
01:42:56 <quintopia> @tell Gregor bfjoust is broke. maybe my attempted replacement for the bash script is broke? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO FIX IT GREGOR D:
01:42:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:56:37 * tswett downloads Navicat.
01:57:11 <tswett> It's not free, but it looks fancy.
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02:24:37 <itidus21> I have fallen and I can't get up.
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04:03:30 <Sgeo> Magsbot has some database functionality, and it's free
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04:03:49 <Sgeo> Although it's hardly intended for database manipulation, it ... can... on Windows
04:04:08 <Sgeo> iirc it likes Comic Sans for stuff
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06:16:46 <augur_> edwardk: ?!
06:16:51 <augur_> what are you doing in here?!
06:17:28 <pikhq_> augur_: #esoteric is stealing #haskell, person by person.
06:17:52 <augur_> :)
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06:20:15 <fizzie> tswett: OpenOffice.Org Base, of course.
06:21:41 <kmc> it's one thing to use PHP for your project
06:21:50 <kmc> but quite another to be so proud of it that you put "php" in the name of your project
06:22:38 <fizzie> I think I tried out that wxWidgetsy PostgreSQL admin thing, pgAdmin, once. It was reasonable, but it's for Postgres.
06:22:58 <shachaf> kmc: Particularly when your project is PHP?
06:24:19 <fizzie> Anyway, OOo Base can speak to at least MySQL and Postgres, plus anything JDBC/ODBCable. It's probably perfectly horrible, though.
06:26:25 <edwardk> augur: i used to lurk in here long before you started ;)
06:26:33 <augur_> edwardk: :O
06:26:37 <augur_> when did you start coming here?
06:26:56 <edwardk> besides, how else am i going to stalk kmc?
06:27:02 <augur_> :)
06:27:15 <augur_> when did you start coming here?
06:28:17 <edwardk> i wandered back a few days ago, but i think i first wandered in here somewhere around 2007-2008
06:28:24 <augur_> huh, me too!
06:28:32 <augur_> i also suppose i can ask you this then, with some expectation of an actual answer:
06:28:42 <edwardk> =P
06:28:46 <augur_> what is one of the weirdest paradigm esolangs
06:29:32 <augur_> i got rather bored with esolangs because they just inevitably turn out to be some annoying cipher of brainfuck or shit like that
06:29:50 <augur_> andi t gets boring after a while, its just a weird machine, nothing truly .. esoteric
06:30:17 <edwardk> hrmm. i tend towards the interesting, i rather enjoy the malbolge/icfp2006 style where you need to more or less cryptanalyze to find a usable subset
06:30:43 <augur_> oh. :(
06:31:22 <augur_> i want to find esolangs that are easy to read, but hard to comprehend how to use because they work so oddly
06:32:07 <edwardk> balance. that was the name of the esolang in icfp2006 i found fun
06:33:03 <kmc> augur_: yeah i agree
06:33:15 <kmc> the brainfuck clones get very little respect here
06:34:18 <kmc> i agree that having weird syntax is the least interesting way a programming language can be weird
06:34:28 <edwardk> we need a dependently typed esolang
06:34:35 <kmc> but syntax always gets disproportionate attention
06:34:38 <augur_> edwardk: isnt that called agda?
06:34:38 <kmc> esolangs are no different i guess
06:34:40 <quintopia> i like aubergine
06:34:44 <edwardk> =P
06:34:50 <augur_> edwardk: actually i think coq is more that
06:34:54 <augur_> i can understand agda
06:34:59 <augur_> coq is fuckin opaque
06:35:13 <kmc> so what are some cool esolangs with "normal-looking" syntax?
06:35:34 <kmc> there are some where, like, each statement executes with some probability
06:35:34 <itidus21> i don't understand functional languages at all, but it seems to me the most interesting divergence is between functional and imperative
06:35:51 <augur_> itidus21: odd
06:35:52 <kmc> itidus21: those are bullshit categories which mean nothing
06:35:55 <augur_> functional languages are easy!
06:36:00 <kmc> every decent language supports both functional and imperative code
06:36:19 <kmc> in fact you can do a lot of great stuff by using the two styles together
06:36:29 <kmc> not just "this part is functional, this part is imperative"
06:36:34 <kmc> but actually using the ideas at the same time
06:36:58 <kmc> Haskell makes this very clear because "function" and "imperative action" are two distinct first-class data types
06:37:05 <quintopia> kmc: what is "normal"
06:37:14 <kmc> you can have a function that returns an action, or takes an action as an argument, or an action which produces a function
06:37:41 <kmc> quintopia: i mean looking like some of the popular non-esoteric languages
06:38:53 <itidus21> my conception of functional is basically : left_parenthesis operator operands right_parenthesis
06:38:56 <quintopia> well there's that one whosename i cant remember
06:39:10 <kmc> itidus21: ...
06:39:22 <quintopia> where everything can be overloaded
06:39:49 <augur_> itidus21: lolol
06:40:21 <augur_> itidus21: as opposed to imperative, which is operator left_parenthesis operands right_parenthesis
06:40:27 <itidus21> i wish i was joking augur.. i plan to figure out what i don't know gradually
06:40:39 <augur_> itidus21: have you tried watching SICP?
06:40:52 <kmc> this is like the idea that a language is object oriented if you write x.f(y) instead of f(x,y)
06:41:13 <quintopia> there is ORK which is the logical extreme of smalltalk
06:41:14 <augur_> kmc: you mean it isnt?!
06:41:16 <itidus21> ok so perhaps it's a matter of types
06:41:42 <kmc> itidus21: why don't you read a book instead of making wild-ass guesses
06:42:51 <augur_> itidus21: functional programming is basically focused around things returning values, as opposed to setting variables
06:43:19 <itidus21> i tried reading the wiki page about continuation
06:43:30 <itidus21> and it occured to me that the problem is
06:43:31 <augur_> oh god why would you do that
06:43:39 <augur_> thats a horrible thing to do
06:43:48 <augur_> there, edwardk, i think thats it, continuations
06:44:01 <augur_> thats the most mind rending esolang ever, a language with nothing but continuations
06:44:11 <edwardk> you could adapt my sigma-only dependent type system to make an esolang
06:44:22 <itidus21> in an imperative language, if you were to do a goto with arguments, there would be nothing to catch the arguments
06:44:25 <quintopia> prolog is fun
06:44:27 <edwardk> it requires you to work in continuation passing style since lambdas can only yield contradictions
06:45:23 <edwardk> basically take the 'haskell is not not ml' paper and swap to a dependent type system
06:45:37 <augur_> edwardk: x,x
06:45:48 <kmc> writing that compiler from lambda calc to pi calc was fun
06:45:49 <augur_> itidus21: you should read lyah
06:45:58 <kmc> it's kind of like a continuations-only language
06:46:03 <edwardk> yeah
06:46:06 <kmc> imo learning haskell is not the best way to learn FP
06:46:09 <kmc> there are too many distractions
06:46:11 <quintopia> i once invented a great semi-functional language
06:46:13 <kmc> haskell is a weird functional language
06:46:24 <edwardk> i should redo that lambda-to-pi calc thing as another 'bound' example
06:46:34 <augur_> kmc: true
06:46:36 <kmc> i wonder how my approach to that compiler compares to milner's
06:46:36 <augur_> SICP!
06:46:39 <kmc> i bet the latter is simpler
06:46:46 <itidus21> my BASIC pseudocode of .. 10 IF A = 5 GOTO 30(7,6) 20 PRINT TEST 30 PRINT ARG1,ARG2
06:46:46 <augur_> edwardk: you should write a pi-calculus tutorial!
06:46:56 <kmc> but i'm just proud of myself for figuring out *a* way on my own :3
06:47:01 <edwardk> =)
06:47:10 <itidus21> if A != 5 then when it reaches line 30, then there is no arg1 or arg2
06:47:14 <edwardk> kmc: did you see bound?
06:47:27 <kmc> itidus21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
06:47:31 <kmc> edwardk: no
06:48:15 <quintopia> itidus21: just make the line before it also end with (7,6)
06:48:24 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound has a few nice examples. notably it makes it a lot easier to deal with bound variables and substiution. you just use Monad and Traversable
06:48:32 <quintopia> even without a goto
06:48:46 <kmc> edwardk: cool
06:49:13 <itidus21> quintopia: my example doesn't really make any sense... its probably contradictory
06:49:31 <edwardk> been rewriting our entire compiler to use this approach, its cleaning up a lot of bugs =)
06:50:11 <itidus21> humm
06:50:38 <itidus21> quintopia: well its how im trying to concieve of continuations
06:51:12 <quintopia> itidus21: ew! :P
06:52:26 <edwardk> i'm thinking about writing a post about how 'generalized de bruijn makes de bruijn indices succ less'
06:53:16 <augur_> edwardk: do it now
06:53:30 <kmc> what's the generalization?
06:53:39 <edwardk> you can 'succ' trees rather than just variables
06:53:50 <edwardk> gives you O(1) weakening instead of requiring a big traversal
06:54:06 <edwardk> and makes it cheaper to do instantiation because instantiation doesn't have to step into a succ'd tree
06:54:31 <augur_> edwardk: trees?
06:54:33 <edwardk> basically you give me a monad 'f' and i give you a monad transformer:
06:54:37 <augur_> i feel you should write a blog post about this
06:54:53 <edwardk> newtype Scope b f a = Scope (f (Either b (f a)))
06:55:10 <edwardk> to lift i use lift = Scope . return . Right
06:55:26 <edwardk> which is cheaper than the lift from EitherT
06:55:31 <itidus21> hmm
06:56:12 <edwardk> then you can just use newtype Exp a = Var a | Exp a :@ Exp a | Lam (Scope () Exp a) -- to get binding dealt with, >>= skips over bound variables gracefully
06:56:57 <edwardk> and you can use more expotic binders by letting b be something other than () to get simultaneous substitution another generalization on de bruijn
06:57:15 <kmc> ok so let me try to understand the b = () case first
06:57:16 <edwardk> er s/newtype/data obviously
06:57:21 <itidus21> ok suppose I had a program in a language in my head PRINT AREA; AREA = LENGTH x WIDTH; and it waited for me to tell it LENGTH=5; WIDTH=4; then it proceeded to work out AREA=20; PRINT 20
06:57:26 <kmc> newtype Scope f a = Scope (f (Maybe (f a)))
06:57:50 <edwardk> yep
06:58:22 <edwardk> write the monad, the MonadTrans and Traversable instances for that
06:58:27 <kmc> so the identity function is Lam (Scope (Var Nothing)) ?
06:58:43 <edwardk> yep
06:58:49 <edwardk> Nothing = Z
06:58:55 <edwardk> Just = S
06:58:58 <kmc> i see
06:59:22 <kmc> that seems weird though
06:59:24 <edwardk> and you can only have as many succ's as levels, with everything else being a free variable, so you have no illegal uses of bound variables
06:59:29 <kmc> because i can put a lambda term "inside" a Var
06:59:35 <edwardk> yes
06:59:45 <kmc> so what does that mean?
06:59:48 <edwardk> the Var itself is a bad name
07:00:04 <kmc> oh it means like "discard an outer level of binders"?
07:00:09 <edwardk> yes
07:00:14 <kmc> ok
07:00:26 <edwardk> its a weakening
07:00:34 <edwardk> you can weaken entire trees
07:00:54 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound/blob/master/src/Bound/Scope.hs
07:01:05 <edwardk> abstract and instantiate are the key combinators
07:01:21 <edwardk> abstract1 and instantiate1 are for use as a MaybeT analogue
07:02:28 <itidus21> the impression i got from what i read was that i could say PRINT LABEL1; GOTO LABEL1(LABEL2); GOTO LABEL2(4 * LABEL3); GOTO LABEL3(5)
07:02:31 <edwardk> but you can mix and match the types b you use at each level
07:02:47 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound/blob/master/examples/Simple.hs#L20 uses () for Lam and Int for Let
07:02:52 <itidus21> ahh i need to learn to be more cogent
07:04:24 <edwardk> i should probably do a boston haskell talk on it
07:05:06 <edwardk> its not entirely novel. everything here has appeared in papers before. bird and patterson describe this operation, but don't lock it up in a monad transformer, and use rank 2 types to pull it off
07:05:32 <edwardk> and the version of abstract and instantiate i use comes from mcbride's "i'm not a number: i am a free variable"
07:05:52 <edwardk> (along with the notion of using Scope as a separate type)
07:08:13 <edwardk> the abstract combinator makes it easy to get lam "x" (Var "x") to desugar to the type you gave though
07:11:25 <edwardk> you can come up with a more ad hoc version that just uses a GADT for your term type
07:12:06 <edwardk> data Term a where Var :: a -> Term a; Bound :: !Int -> Term (Maybe a); Free :: Term a -> Term (Maybe a); other fields
07:12:19 <edwardk> er Bound :: !Int -> Term (Either Int a)
07:12:33 <edwardk> and Free :: Term a -> Term (Either b a)
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07:51:35 <Taneb> Hello
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08:14:05 <itidus21> i find it hard to dismiss the fact that if there is any correlation between piety and intelligence, that the pious tend to be more intelligent
08:14:19 <itidus21> could i say anything more ignorant and divisive?
08:16:17 <Taneb> Well, in times where the Church was the primary literary body in western Europe, that would have been true
08:16:47 <Taneb> Aaah, I'm just making crap up
08:17:00 <itidus21> now you know how i feel behind everything i say!
08:17:05 <Taneb> :)
08:18:15 <itidus21> i might not actually know the working definition of pious when i say this though
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08:19:09 <itidus21> i think, what i actually mean is
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08:19:37 <kmc> itidus21: why do you do it
08:19:39 <itidus21> that one cannot argue against any religion or belief by sampling the intelligence of it's members
08:19:54 <kmc> itidus21: i agree that is logicall unsound
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08:19:58 <itidus21> with a maximally biased sample
08:21:08 <kmc> itidus21: why do you say these things
08:21:14 <kmc> what do you get out of it
08:21:38 <kmc> by your own admission the things you say are completely ignorant and unfounded
08:21:42 <kmc> whether about religion or programming languages
08:22:11 <itidus21> i have basically 2 choices
08:22:39 <itidus21> i can read things, or i can find something to say in irc
08:22:58 <kmc> but do you actually learn anything from IRC
08:23:15 <kmc> for all the nonsensical things you've said about haskell, have you learned one true fact about haskell?
08:24:35 <kmc> there is a difference between saying something slightly incorrect and getting a correction
08:24:47 <kmc> versus saying things that are so nonsensically wrong that we don't even know where to start
08:24:56 <kmc> the latter seems like a poor way to learn
08:25:28 * itidus21 ponders.
08:25:38 <kmc> maybe i sound angry but honestly i am just completely baffled
08:26:34 <itidus21> these days i find it difficult to concentrate.
08:26:46 <itidus21> at least i think i do
08:27:26 <itidus21> my doctor has been asking me lately if i find it difficult to do so.. and i am not sure if i do or if i'm just lazy
08:28:58 <itidus21> i can read comic books, but i don't think that counts
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08:31:53 <Taneb> Oh god help
08:31:58 <Taneb> I'm making a github account
08:32:15 <itidus21> basically i'm trying to build a map in my mind of programming languages
08:32:18 <Taneb> Help
08:32:30 <Taneb> itidus21, I've tried to do that
08:32:33 <Taneb> It's complicated
08:33:01 <kmc> Taneb: github is useful
08:36:01 <itidus21> this might not be relevant, but i can't see any practical use of self-reproducing machines
08:36:31 <itidus21> except perhaps in the study of biology and manufacturing
08:39:09 * kmc head explode
08:39:27 <coppro> ^
08:39:52 * coppro enjoys tricking his body into believeing it's reproducing.
08:39:55 <kmc> itidus21 is a robot sent from the future to explode heads
08:40:23 <itidus21> it has been proven long ago that there is no perfect body
08:41:11 <itidus21> fsvo proven :P
08:42:26 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical?
08:42:42 <fizzie> Taneb: Do you need help in making a Github account, or help in avoiding making one?
08:43:01 <fizzie> (I don't have help available for either, just curious.)
08:43:57 <fizzie> Also sounds like JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller there.
08:45:11 <itidus21> kmc: based on what i have just said, it is perhaps best that "<kmc> what do you get out of it" remains unanswered
08:45:14 <fizzie> I tried to watch some sovereign-citizen courtroom appearances once, but couldn't for more than a minute, due to acute embarrassment.
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08:46:01 <itidus21> you're not being paid enough to be my therapist
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08:47:27 <kmc> fizzie: are they online somewhere?
08:48:01 <ais523> [09:44] <kerio> what's windows?
08:48:02 <ais523> [09:45] <ais523> err, disregarding that due to cognitive dissonance due to meme from another channel
08:48:05 <ais523> I'm sure you people will understand :)
08:48:09 <itidus21> a body implies a non-body.. is the perfection of a body a function of the non-body?
08:48:23 <ais523> (there's a bit of relevant context but you can probably guess what it is from context)
08:48:34 <itidus21> well.. i always have some inane comment to add
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08:50:49 <fizzie> kmc: They were a couple of links from some blog posting. I'm sure similar stuff is findable by the usual means, though.
08:51:50 <fizzie> (Also easier to come by are plain transcripts, but I couldn't actually manage to read those either.)
08:51:54 <itidus21> i'm out of my programming depth... i spent longer than necessary at school towards a degree.. and yet i dropped out before completing it
08:52:29 <nortti> anyone know if there is any development on k-meleon?
08:52:33 <itidus21> so what i get out of it is that i insist on treading water in the deep end of the pool
08:53:28 <fizzie> K-meleon sounds like a clustering algorithm. You know, k-means, k-medians, k-medoids, k-meleon.
08:54:03 <nortti> well it is mozilla based browser with xul bullshit removed
08:54:03 <fizzie> It uses the meleons of the clusters somehow, probably.
08:54:18 <nortti> like camino but for windows
08:54:39 <fizzie> No, I'm pretty sure it's a clustering algorithm, despite all evidence to contrary.
08:54:57 <fizzie> You associate each point with the closest meleon.
08:56:52 <nortti> speaking of which is there mozilla-with-xul-bullshit-removed for linux?
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08:59:13 <pikhq_> "Web" (formerly Epiphany)
08:59:25 <pikhq_> Wait, fuck, they switched to Webkit.
08:59:38 <pikhq_> Fuck GNOME.
09:00:00 <nortti> yeah. galeon uses webkit too, right?
09:00:17 <pikhq_> Galeon is unmaintained.
09:00:30 <pikhq_> But used Gecko.
09:00:34 <kmc> lol at renaming it to "Web"
09:00:39 <kmc> GUYS CAN WE BE APPLE TOO??
09:00:40 <nortti> yeah
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09:01:12 <nortti> well at least they didn't rename in "My country" like in red star os
09:01:24 <kmc> you know if you went back to 2000 and said that Konqueror's HTML engine was going to take over the world, people would laugh at you
09:02:26 <fizzie> If OOo made a browser, it'd probably be called "Browse".
09:03:52 <pikhq_> Nah, Oracle took over. It'd be called "Oracle Browser" and have a per-seat license.
09:04:08 <kmc> Oracle Unbreakable Enterprise Browser
09:04:54 <pikhq_> And require a dedicated workstation, as well as a dedicated admin, for each user.
09:04:55 <kmc> btw, did you know Oracle Linux is now freely available?
09:04:59 <kmc> http://public-yum.oracle.com/
09:05:14 <nortti> oracle linux?
09:05:18 <kmc> yes
09:05:28 <kmc> oracle has a RHEL-based linux distro
09:06:01 <kmc> like CentOS and SciLinux, it is largely built from redhat's sources
09:06:37 <kmc> like Red Hat, they make money on support contracts
09:06:47 <kmc> but unlike Red Hat, you can download the binaries for free without a support contract
09:08:08 <itidus21> kmc: i guess it's that i want to reject as much as possible, without rejecting too much. i am much interested in writing my own languages. with intended end applications of computer games
09:08:12 <fizzie> Didn't they just dump the whole thing to Apache?
09:08:24 <fizzie> I'm sure Apache could call it "Browse".
09:08:55 <fizzie> Though I'm annoyed that it has components like Draw, Impress, but then the word processing part is Writer.
09:08:58 <kmc> BrowserFactory
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09:10:35 <itidus21> people doing the same things get the same results, people following the same paths find the same destinations. with such ideas in mind, i want to wander blindfolded and intoxicated!
09:11:36 <fizzie> Should be OpenOffice Writer (word processing), OpenOffice Artist (vector graphics), OpenOffice Accountant (spreadsheets), OpenOffice Orator (presentations), OpenOffice Mathematician (equation editor) and so on, to follow the lead of 'Writer'.
09:12:26 <fizzie> Also back when they still had that '.org' in the name, they could've abbreviated OpenOffice.org Orator as OOoO.
09:12:33 <oerjan> itidus21: there's a flip side to that, at least in mathematics - you need to know what others have done in order to avoid the same mistakes
09:12:49 <kmc> oerjan: good thing programming has nothing to do with mathematics, am i rite?
09:13:07 <Taneb> Past fizzie, I don't know!
09:13:12 <oerjan> kmc: very good. hand me that curry-howard screwdriver, will you?
09:13:55 <kmc> in programming it is ok to make the same mistakes over and over for decades
09:14:06 <kmc> in fact this is industry standard and people will laugh at you if you propose to do otherwise
09:14:07 <oerjan> so i hear.
09:14:15 <kmc> so i think itidus21 has picked a good field
09:14:45 <oerjan> don't worry, you just have to learn lisp, and then you can learn all the mistakes in their original form!
09:14:49 <itidus21> i'm not in the field yet though... i do not envision waking up one day to be paid to code
09:15:06 <Taneb> It's too late1
09:15:11 <Taneb> I know have a github account
09:15:22 <itidus21> Taneb: oh shit..
09:15:26 <kmc> Taneb: now you can post image macros on all those HILARIOUS javascript and ruby bugs!
09:15:48 <itidus21> Taneb: that's like knowing where the bottleshop is after emptying all your bottles of booze
09:16:01 <Taneb> *now
09:18:13 <itidus21> oerjan: well, programming will be saved by JVM and Microsoft's CLI
09:20:06 <kmc> yeah right
09:20:33 <Taneb> What does a .gitignore do!?
09:20:43 <kmc> tells git that certain files should not be tracked
09:20:49 <kmc> meaning they won't show up as untracked in 'git status'
09:21:10 <kmc> and also it warns if you try to 'git add' one
09:21:23 <kmc> used for build products, editor droppings, etc
09:21:29 <kmc> man gitignore
09:21:36 <itidus21> saved = trying to create API patenting law
09:22:01 <oerjan> itidus21: needs more dependent types
09:24:29 <itidus21> well, i believe that programming and even math isn't infact difficult. it's just that all real-world examples of programming and math are too complex or of low quality
09:25:42 * oerjan hits itidus21 with the saucepan ===\__/
09:26:05 <itidus21> as i say this i begin to think about how i know what multiplication is
09:26:05 <oerjan> nearly lost to humanity
09:26:07 <shachaf> hoerjan
09:26:17 <shachaf> x==5
09:26:19 <shachaf> x=5
09:26:21 <shachaf> Oops!
09:26:22 <itidus21> and i learned at school obviously
09:26:36 <oerjan> hshchachaf
09:29:16 <itidus21> one thing i have realized is that one reason astronomy seems difficult is because i imagine the scale relative to my own scale
09:29:55 <itidus21> but if i imagine a planet being the size of an apple, then the whole question of scale seems silly
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09:30:54 <itidus21> just gotta plug in the numbers systematically
09:34:14 <itidus21> otherwise it's difficult for exactly the same reasons that to an unaided observer the sky looks like it's covered in white spots
09:35:57 <itidus21> goes quiet now
09:37:24 <fizzie> if (status = UNDER_ATTACK) launch_nuclear_missiles(); /* find the bug */
09:38:12 <itidus21> well i can still see shachaf's text onscreen
09:38:25 <fizzie> I don't think that quite qualifies as a bug.
09:38:29 <fizzie> Though I suppose it might.
09:38:34 <itidus21> there is no bug!
09:38:37 <itidus21> lol
09:39:30 <oerjan> fizzie: perfectly valid conservative programming
09:40:10 <itidus21> the bug is in the language which allows such code to be valid
09:40:11 <shachaf> #define UNDER_ATTACK 0
09:40:25 <itidus21> :o shachaf u saved the world
09:41:06 <fizzie> Shachaf University saves the world again.
09:42:02 <oerjan> shachaf university always keeps proper backups
09:42:38 <shachaf> øh nø
09:43:02 <itidus21> im trying to figure out why i didn't spot that
09:43:32 <shachaf> øøps
09:43:46 <itidus21> i guess i always assuemed that in, if (a=b) c(); , that b!= 0
09:44:22 <itidus21> ^assumed
09:44:56 <shachaf> aßumed
09:44:57 <Taneb> Only if c is called
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09:45:31 <Taneb> subsumed
09:47:08 <itidus21> or i might have assumed that a status constant != 0
09:49:12 <oerjan> if (status = PARIAH)
09:57:52 <fizzie> AẞUMED. (Thank you, Unicode 5.1.)
09:58:36 <fizzie> (U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S was added in 5.1.)
09:59:34 <shachaf> AнA
10:01:28 <fizzie> Oh no, it's a вомв.
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10:05:44 <shachaf> Аге ше шгітіиб іи сугілліc?
10:08:25 <fizzie> I think Ѩ.
10:11:12 <kmc> vodka
10:13:59 <kmc> horse ebooks
10:14:32 <shachaf> horse devours
10:14:54 <kmc> And if you haven t noticed, crepes have come a long way
10:15:28 <shachaf> kmc: Are you playing itidus21?
10:15:39 <kmc> itidus21 ebooks
10:15:46 <itidus21> it's best to let itidus21 play itidus21
10:16:02 <shachaf> whoa, dude
10:16:07 <shachaf> Did you see what itidus21 just said?
10:16:23 <shachaf> It's a sensible and true statement!
10:16:29 <Taneb> I like how adverts for Internet Explorer are "We do stuff that pretty much every other major browser also does, but you've heard of us!"
10:16:41 <shachaf> Admittedly this statement wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for all of itidus21's other statements.
10:17:01 <itidus21> i'm working on such a statement as we speak
10:17:36 <kmc> While Sitting In Your Most Comfortable Chair, Quickly Discover The Missing Links That Rapidly Catapults Your Ability to Devastate, Humiliate
10:17:59 <shachaf> Are we Playing the capitalization Game Now
10:18:02 <kmc> Faithfully As An Oil Rig
10:18:08 <itidus21> what i do.. is guaranteed to blow your mind
10:18:12 <kmc> Fan Fan Fan Local Local Horse Steam Jet Fan Room and pillar- Room and pillar. Shaft Shaft What Cheer What Cheer Holliday
10:18:17 <itidus21> theres no ifs or buts about it
10:19:25 <itidus21> one integer has as much meaning as the next, but it is such a small subset of english expressions which have a discernable meaning, that i wonder if we intentionally leave room for meaningless expressions in order to create new meanings
10:20:36 <itidus21> but such an intention would be reifying the processes of language development
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10:23:04 <itidus21> but then again, we already create new meanings upon existing expressions
10:24:59 <itidus21> so where does this take me.. we could interpret a single symbol nondeterministically
10:25:14 <oerjan> well sometimes language needs cromulent embiggening
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10:28:44 <itidus21> Error: encountered non-deterministic expression. please be an oracle. your choices are 1)increment 2)decrement 3)set to 17
10:30:16 <itidus21> logging "user itidus21 has selected increment."
10:36:57 <AnotherTest> Is there a programming language that modifies it syntax to be correct yet?
10:36:57 <AnotherTest> *its
10:41:38 <oerjan> does /// count?
10:47:06 <AnotherTest> Well it seems that in /// there is little syntax
10:47:58 <Deewiant> If you mean "modifies itself to do what the programmer meant", no; if you mean "does something regardless of what you type in", sure.
10:49:14 <AnotherTest> I mean the latter, that is, everything will be considered as correct syntax and will have a meaning
10:49:34 <oerjan> hm didn't oklotalk do something like that
10:49:55 <oerjan> or wait, was it oklopol's Clue
10:50:13 * oerjan isn't remembering
10:50:36 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
10:50:42 <Deewiant> Befunge.
10:50:44 <AnotherTest> It seems there are 2 Clue languages
10:50:53 <oerjan> yes, there are
10:51:29 <Deewiant> Malbolge, I think.
10:52:19 <oerjan> no, malbolge has strict restrictions on which characters can go in which positions
10:52:35 <Deewiant> Ah, okay.
10:52:58 <AnotherTest> The language should have unicode as the alphabet
10:53:26 <Deewiant> There's UniCode, which is obviously unfinished.
10:53:38 <oerjan> /// has no problem using utf-8 i think :P
10:53:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: And Uniquode, too.
10:54:11 <fizzie> (It's even more unfinished.)
10:54:13 <Deewiant> Befunge-98 can use Unicode fine if the interpreter supports it, but it's not very interesting because most characters will just reflect the IP.
10:54:27 <fizzie> You can put in larger data values, though.
10:58:40 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if many of the "2D" languages were in that sense syntax-free.
10:58:47 <fizzie> 2L seems to, for example.
11:01:47 <oerjan> one of Iota and Jot, i think...
11:01:50 * itidus21 bounces back in.
11:02:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Jot, I think.
11:02:57 <itidus21> yeah, it seems i have more ego left than i thought in relation to programming.
11:04:08 <itidus21> i think dijkstra might be conflicted about devoting his life's work to computers but opting not to use one
11:04:39 <itidus21> and apparently it's becoming a theme in silicon valley for people to send their kids to computer-less schools
11:05:00 <itidus21> maybe there is a wave of computer scientists who abhor computers on the horizon
11:06:04 <mroman> +[+[+<]>>-<]+> (14, 5) for 223
11:07:17 <mroman> and -[-[-<]>>-<]+> for 175, but there are already 14b solutions for 175
11:08:10 <itidus21> computers good for the economy though, but anything which is good for the economy is bad for the environment
11:08:34 <mroman> oh wow.
11:08:40 * kmc head explode
11:09:02 <itidus21> it takes electricity to power the internet after all.
11:09:43 <mroman> +[>+>[+<]>+]>> sadly runs through the whole tape to produce 64 :(
11:18:38 <mroman> argh
11:18:48 <mroman> david.werecat accidentaly removed 223 :(
11:19:28 * oerjan thought he had checked such things...
11:20:30 <oerjan> oh todya
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11:22:25 <mroman> ^bf ++[+[>]<-<++]>.
11:22:25 <fungot> H
11:22:53 <mroman> That's some very freaky program I found there :)
11:23:05 <mroman> And It consumes 7 cells.
11:23:09 <mroman> But it's 1B shorter :D
11:24:29 <mroman> Wow.
11:24:33 <mroman> That is a very good range :)
11:25:09 <mroman> >+[+[>]<-<++]> (14, 8) wrapping for 59
11:25:19 <mroman> ^bf >+[+[>]<-<++]>.
11:25:20 <fungot> ;
11:27:47 <mroman> the [>] actually looks very suspicios.
11:27:55 <mroman> but it's not :)
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11:29:00 <FireFly> What is a "range"?
11:29:14 <oerjan> mroman: i agree with david_werecat that initial >'s should be used instead of solutions going to the left of start
11:31:28 <mroman> oh.
11:31:30 <mroman> I see.
11:32:01 <mroman> well then most of them are not valid in your terms.
11:32:06 <mroman> as they go way below zero
11:32:20 <mroman> especially the solution consuming up to 9 cells ;)
11:32:25 <oerjan> your new ones you mean?
11:32:28 <mroman> Yes.
11:32:30 <mroman> My new ones.
11:33:18 <oerjan> they do seem to stretch the format
11:33:32 <mroman> The wiki did not specify that.
11:33:42 <mroman> I just presumed that wrapping applies to the tape as well ;)
11:33:59 <oerjan> oh, that's not assumed no.
11:34:10 <mroman> however, I added a comment to all my solution that they go below zero
11:34:24 <mroman> *solutions
11:35:25 <mroman> My list is not even complete
11:35:33 <mroman> I have around 10 more solutions like the previous ones.
11:35:54 <oerjan> it's more that these solutions are intended to be usable as subroutines in programs, which means there should be enough information to tell what surrounding cells are needed. and preferable in a machine-readable format (i've extracted it before, e.g. for pikhq_'s BFM system)
11:35:56 <mroman> Because solutions with a wrapping tape are way shorter.
11:36:10 <oerjan> i suppose the page should actually _say_ that somewhere :P
11:36:21 <mroman> Well, it should have :)
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11:37:24 <fizzie> oerjan: There's that discussion about a proposed format from 2010 but nothing seems to have come out of it.
11:40:03 <itidus21> "Surprisingly, [Hollerith] did not get the idea from the work of Babbage, but rather from watching a train conductor punch tickets." -- this is how one arrives at good ideas, watching train conductors
11:40:44 <fizzie> So staring at a superconductor must logically result in superb ideas.
11:41:16 * itidus21 dies from the pun.
11:41:56 <oerjan> a very cold hearted pun
11:44:38 <mroman> http://codepad.org/ETZz4afE
11:44:46 <mroman> ^- That's the output of the first 16 ranges.
11:44:57 <mroman> There are DOZENS of shorter solutions in that output
11:45:04 <mroman> but I assume they all need tape wrapping.
11:46:11 <oerjan> mroman: tape wrapping should be probably be mentioned specifically
11:46:37 <mroman> A seperate list?
11:46:42 <mroman> or in the comment?
11:46:53 <mroman> I already mentioned it in the comment for the corresponding entry
11:47:02 <mroman> *entries
11:47:12 <mroman> But If you say that you won't allow it
11:47:13 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP_rNaJ1vOw I could cry of happiness
11:47:18 <mroman> I won't even bother checking the output anymore
11:47:21 <oerjan> you mentioned it went to the left, but not that it went all the way _around_ the tape
11:47:21 <Sgeo> This song was in a game I used to play
11:47:27 <mroman> because it's of no use then ;)
11:47:29 <Sgeo> Never thought I'd find it independtly
11:47:36 <Sgeo> A google, just a few minutes ago, found it
11:47:43 <Sgeo> http://www.indiegamer.com/archives/t-208.html
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11:48:36 <oerjan> mroman: i interpreted your comment as saying that some of the cells used were to the left of the start, not that it used a circular tape
11:49:07 <fizzie> oerjan: A room-temperature pun would would be a very beneficial discovery indeed.
11:49:46 <oerjan> (wrapping cells, tape) could be the format, assuming they wrap on values as well
11:50:10 <mroman> oerjan: Yes.
11:50:25 <mroman> Cells to the left and to the right are used.
11:50:37 <mroman> Which means that cell 0 < -> cell 255
11:50:52 <mroman> but of course, if you're at cell 100, it does not need wrapping, yes.
11:50:58 <oerjan> mroman: there's no assumption a tape has _length_ 256
11:51:08 <mroman> oerjan: Yes.
11:51:10 <mroman> Ok.
11:51:19 <mroman> They don't require circular tape.
11:51:27 <mroman> They just consume cells to the left and to the right.
11:51:35 <oerjan> in fact if there is no mention, i would assume the tape needs to be no longer than the number of cells used
11:51:56 <oerjan> mroman: oh. well then inserting >'s at the beginning would be enough to disambiguate.
11:52:01 <mroman> Because all solutions actually requiring a circular tape only produce the right number with the same tape length :D
11:52:14 <mroman> oerjan: Yes, but then the solution is not shorter anymore ;)
11:52:23 <oerjan> yeah i guess...
11:52:34 <mroman> I'd have to add >>>>>>>> to some solution
11:52:41 <mroman> which would make them 7 B longer :)
11:53:01 <mroman> I mean
11:53:09 <mroman> I could check if some solutions would still be shorter.
11:53:19 <oerjan> perhaps a different format for cell no. then? -7..2
11:53:35 <mroman> -[-[-<]>>+<]+> is 5B shorter
11:53:38 <mroman> and requires 5 cells
11:53:43 <mroman> so it might actually still be shorter.
11:54:14 <oerjan> mroman: it should say somewhere how _many_ cells to the left it uses
11:54:19 <mroman> >-[-[-<]>>+<]+> does not drop below zero anymore
11:54:22 <mroman> but is still shorter
11:54:24 <oerjan> in some way
11:55:36 <mroman> Ok.
11:55:38 <mroman> I'll do that.
11:55:48 <mroman> I'll add as many > as required to not drop below zero
11:58:12 <Sgeo> Awesome is awesome.
12:05:33 <mroman> ok
12:05:38 <mroman> so far 33 and 200 can stay
12:07:44 <mroman> 223 can stay.
12:10:02 <mroman> oh.
12:10:14 <mroman> 106 is new.
12:10:28 <mroman> Ok, there are still shorter solutions in the output to find with > added to the start \o/
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12:28:26 <mroman> ^bf -[>+[+<+]->+]>.
12:28:29 <fungot> .
12:28:39 <mroman> does not even require me to add >
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13:07:06 <mroman> Not bad though.
13:07:30 <mroman> 22 new shorter non-drop-below-zero wrapping brainfuck constants
13:07:39 -!- boily has joined.
13:08:03 <mroman> I have to automate this process though.
13:08:18 <mroman> I'm only at 1/3 of results yet :(
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13:10:30 <mroman> The smaller a program is, it consumes more cycles and more cells.
13:12:35 <mroman> Why is there no information included AT which cell a constant stops?
13:13:23 <mroman> Maybe if it uses three cells it might stop at the second
13:14:12 <mroman> Which would not be that convenient :)
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13:45:01 <Vorpal> wow I found a huge beetle (approx 2.5 cm in length) on the stairs outside. Iridescent... Never seen anything like it
13:48:25 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:53:18 <Taneb> Vorpal, let it bite you, you may get superpowers!
13:53:23 <Vorpal> hah
13:53:34 <Vorpal> I'll upload some photos in a second
13:56:27 <Vorpal> uploading atm
13:57:07 <Vorpal> taking some time...
13:57:40 <Taneb> The weather looks ominous
13:58:15 <Vorpal> I wish my upload speed was higher than 1 Mbit/s...
13:58:56 <Taneb> Heh, that's like, one eighth of mine
13:59:04 <Taneb> Except I think I've reached my data limit
13:59:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, I have 8 mbit/s down and 1 mbit/s up
13:59:15 <Vorpal> (ADSL)
13:59:19 <Taneb> Okay
13:59:31 <Taneb> 8 mbit/s down, barely anything up
14:00:05 <mroman> at least you have 1 mbit/s up :)
14:00:10 <Vorpal> only one image left to upload now
14:00:35 <Vorpal> http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644
14:00:37 <Vorpal> there
14:00:54 <Vorpal> the beetle in question was approximately 2 cm
14:00:58 <Vorpal> maybe 2.5
14:01:03 <Vorpal> about there anyway
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14:01:17 <Taneb> Are there many spiders in Sweden?
14:01:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, well the usual ones, no poisonous ones though.
14:01:48 <Taneb> How large do they get?
14:01:53 <Vorpal> but probably less than some parts of the world, and more than others
14:02:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, not sure. I tend to kill the ones I see (I don't like spiders)
14:02:28 <Taneb> (I may have to warn an arachnophobic Swedenophile)
14:02:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large to they get in UK?
14:03:08 <boily> Vorpal: nice beetle!
14:03:14 <Taneb> Vorpal, the largest could fit easily into the bottom of a pint glass
14:03:23 <Vorpal> boily, yeah, right on my doorstep a few minutes ago
14:03:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large is a pint glass?
14:03:43 <Taneb> Half a litre?
14:04:06 <Vorpal> right, what about the dimensions though? You could have a very narrow and tall one for example
14:04:18 <Vorpal> or a very wide and low one
14:05:46 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pint_Glass_(Pub).svg
14:06:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't see any scale on that?
14:06:17 <Vorpal> just give me the diameter or something (metric)
14:06:29 <Taneb> 15 cm tall
14:06:40 <Vorpal> and diameter? Since that is what is relevant here
14:06:56 <Taneb> 2.5 centimetres wider in diameter at the top than the bottom
14:07:17 <Vorpal> that still doesn't help
14:07:29 <Taneb> Comfortable to hold in your hand?
14:07:32 <Deewiant> He's just reading the wikipedia article, give him some time
14:07:42 <Vorpal> right
14:07:48 <Deewiant> (Although it doesn't look like it has the diameter measurement)
14:08:04 <Vorpal> well then, in that case I don't know if there are spiders larger than that
14:08:18 <Vorpal> I have seen some with very long legs (and very small body usually)
14:08:41 <Vorpal> anyway I wonder which species that beetle I found is
14:08:41 <Deewiant> Harvestmen
14:08:50 <Deewiant> They're not spiders
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14:08:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, oh?
14:09:05 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvestmen
14:09:09 <Vorpal> huh
14:09:19 <Vorpal> right
14:09:30 <Vorpal> too spidery for my taste anyway
14:09:31 <Vorpal> :P
14:09:56 <Vorpal> but yeah I would really like to know the species of http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644
14:10:00 <Vorpal> no idea how to find out
14:10:13 <Deewiant> I've seen those
14:10:20 <Vorpal> oh? I never seen them before
14:10:26 <Vorpal> very pretty, also really large
14:11:05 <Vorpal> it pulled in it's legs when I got close, so that is why it is curled up in the photos
14:11:18 <Vorpal> (btw, I think for a phone camera that was fairly good)
14:12:09 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotinis_mutabilis ?
14:12:29 <Deewiant> Not quite
14:12:57 <Vorpal> it was not dull green
14:13:01 <Deewiant> And heh, US/Mexico
14:13:12 <Vorpal> it was strongly iridescent green on the back
14:14:37 * Sgeo whats at the existence of .rmi
14:14:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, .rmi being?
14:15:03 <Sgeo> A MIDI in a RIFF thingy
14:15:06 <Sgeo> http://www.fileinfo.com/extension/rmi
14:15:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: Are those little protrusions legs? 'cuz if so, that ain't a beetle...
14:15:17 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:15:24 <Gregor> @messages
14:15:25 <lambdabot> quintopia said 12h 32m 28s ago: bfjoust is broke. maybe my attempted replacement for the bash script is broke? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO FIX IT GREGOR D:
14:15:31 <Gregor> !bfjoust suicide <
14:15:37 <Gregor> I didn't change anything...
14:15:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm? What protursions? It had legs out, but it pulled them in when I got near. I think it wants to be a turtle when it grows up ;)
14:16:01 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format#Initial_difficulties_with_MIDI_Files
14:16:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, you can see the legs by the side in the 5th image
14:16:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Oh, I didn't realize it was a series X_X
14:16:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, right
14:18:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, didn't the link go to some overview album page or something? It does for me, though I'm logged into my dropbox account
14:18:29 <Gregor> !bfjoust suicide <
14:18:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: It went to a particular image, with a series of images at the top in a menubar.
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14:18:57 <Deewiant> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetonia_aurata
14:19:37 <Sgeo> DAMN. IT. WEB. ARCHIVE.
14:19:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, looks like it, mine was more yellow green than the wikipedia picture though
14:19:56 <Sgeo> If I search for a URL, I do NOT want to be redirected based on the existence of present-day redirects
14:20:15 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I think it depends a bit on viewing angle :-P
14:20:21 <Vorpal> also they say 20 mm, kind of fits. Looked like slightly more than that though
14:20:27 <Gregor> !bfjoust suicide <
14:20:32 <Vorpal> Deewiant, didn't see the underside
14:20:34 <EgoBot> ​Score for Gregor_suicide: 0.0
14:20:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: But it does say that the colour varies
14:20:52 <Vorpal> hm yeah
14:20:58 <Vorpal> anyway, how did you manage to find it?
14:21:00 <Gregor> ... dahell
14:21:05 <Gregor> Ah, there we go.
14:21:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cetonia_aurata_%28Linnaeus_1761%29.jpg mine seemed to have thinner legs
14:21:31 <Vorpal> not sure though
14:21:40 <Deewiant> Vorpal: After a bunch of googling I ended up with the search terms 'shiny yellow green beetle europe' and http://www.memidex.com/cetonia-aurata was the fifth result
14:21:46 <Vorpal> ah
14:21:50 <Vorpal> impressive
14:22:08 <Vorpal> (google and you)
14:22:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: The Finnish wikipedia has more pictures: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kultakuoriainen
14:22:57 <Deewiant> As does the Swedish: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A4sgr%C3%B6n_guldbagge
14:23:25 <Deewiant> I've looked those up before, I recognize that Finnish name :-P
14:23:39 <Vorpal> the beetle I found didn't seem inclined to fly away btw.
14:23:48 <Vorpal> very pedestrian
14:24:22 <Vorpal> the .fi one didn't have that many pictures
14:24:27 <Vorpal> the Swedish one does though
14:24:29 <Deewiant> Yeah I don't think I've seen them fly much
14:24:46 <Vorpal> but the V shape thingy mentioned is indeed there
14:24:49 <Deewiant> Well it had at least the one main picture with two of them
14:24:54 <Vorpal> guess I'll add some metadata to the image locally
14:25:36 <Sgeo> As I went futher back in the archive, I found more games
14:25:46 <Sgeo> I guess game publishers started pulling out from Dexterity?
14:26:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what are you talking about?
14:26:57 <Sgeo> Vorpal, dexterity.com
14:27:03 <Sgeo> Used to have a bunch of shareware games
14:27:56 <Vorpal> lets see how good dropbox is at syncing if I just add metadata to the images
14:28:12 <Vorpal> looks like it is uploading a lot, takes some time. But not as much time as the original upload
14:28:20 <Vorpal> so a somewhat smart algorithm I guess
14:28:51 <Vorpal> not that dropbox seems to show image metadata, oh well
14:30:04 <Vorpal> seems to handle a name change well though
14:31:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also wikipedia seems to indicate it likes sunny warm spots, while I found it in the shadow on the north side of the house
14:32:02 <Deewiant> I like sleeping; doesn't mean I'm always in my bed.
14:32:16 <Vorpal> hah
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15:19:24 <nortti> http://gawker.com/5532226/swat-team-raids-house-shoots-dogs-over-small-amount-of-marijuana
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16:12:13 <Taneb> Hello
16:12:55 <fizzie> As if!
16:16:39 <fizzie> nortti: They seem to have a sort of a well-established policy of shooting as many dogs as possible; there's been quite a few stories like that.
16:16:53 <fizzie> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/27/cop-shoots-dog-puppycide_n_1446841.html "A search of news articles from the past year shows more than 100 separate incidents."
16:17:04 <fizzie> I suppose in some of those there's been some amount of self-defence going on.
16:17:17 <fizzie> But e.g. the dog in the article's picture does not look incredibly threatening.
16:17:51 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
16:17:54 <fizzie> "In recent years, police officers have shot and killed chihuahuas, miniature dachshunds, Wheaton terriers, and Jack Russell terriers. Last month, a California police officer shot and killed a boxer puppy and pregnant chihuahua, claiming the boxer had threatened him. The chihuahua, he said, got caught in the crossfire."
16:17:59 <fizzie> That sort of stuff.
16:38:42 <mroman> Let's just say that If a dog attacks me and I had a gun...
16:38:49 <mroman> I might be really tempted to shoot him.
16:39:11 <Taneb> If a dog attacks me and I had a gun
16:39:18 <mroman> And by attacking I mean "coming at me"
16:39:21 <Taneb> I'd be panicking so much about me having a gun
16:39:27 <Taneb> I'd forget about the dog
16:39:28 <mroman> because if he is just in front of me, it's too late to react.
16:39:45 <mroman> So obviously you either should him while he's charging at you or you don't.
16:40:02 <mroman> *shoot
16:40:03 <Taneb> What if the dog just wants to lick you in the face
16:40:10 <mroman> Taneb: There is no way of knowing that.
16:40:15 <mroman> He might as well bite you in the face.
16:40:53 <mroman> which is exactly the point.
16:41:00 <mroman> You have to stop a dog before he reaches you.
16:41:30 <mroman> Common sense when dealing with animals.
16:42:03 <mroman> Small dogs ARE NOT less dangerous then big dangerous looking dogs.
16:42:08 <mroman> *than
16:42:28 <itidus21> well the kids shouldn't have let their marijuana use escalate to police involvement
16:42:47 -!- Guest34050 has changed nick to oklopol.
16:42:48 <itidus21> maybe i should read the article before commenting
16:42:52 <mroman> Even if a small dog bites you the wound is still very serious.
16:43:01 <mroman> except it is a very very small dog.
16:43:15 <mroman> but still, infection is not unlikely.
16:43:39 <Phantom__Hoover> <mroman> Taneb: There is no way of knowing that.
16:43:40 <Phantom__Hoover> <mroman> He might as well bite you in the face.
16:43:40 <Phantom__Hoover> <mroman> which is exactly the point.
16:43:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Well there is, the article even mentions that the American Humane Society offers courses on it.
16:44:15 <mroman> Well
16:44:32 <mroman> If I have to take courses on how to "mind read" dogs in order to be safe on the streets
16:44:48 <mroman> that's just plain weird.
16:44:54 <Phantom__Hoover> It is *not* acceptable for police to kill domestic animals engaging in perfectly normal domestic animal behaviour just because it could possibly be dangerous.
16:45:17 <mroman> Well.
16:45:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh sorry, I didn't realise you live somewhere full of aggressive feral dogs.
16:45:23 <mroman> If a police officers tells you to stop
16:45:26 <mroman> and you just keep walking to him
16:45:28 <kmc> hey if you didn't want your dog to get shot, you shouldn't have become possibly falsely suspected of owning a small amount of a fairly harmless plant
16:45:30 <mroman> What would he do?
16:45:37 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, then it is not acceptable for him to shoot you.
16:45:52 <mroman> Unless you are armed with a knife.
16:45:53 <Phantom__Hoover> There are plenty of reasons someone could do that without being a threat.
16:46:28 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: depends who is the judge of acceptability
16:46:47 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: Only if he can't hear or understand you.
16:46:48 <mroman> But yes.
16:46:49 <itidus21> fwiw it's not me
16:46:57 <mroman> He shouldn't shoot him just for that.
16:47:14 <mroman> But still...
16:47:26 <mroman> That's why police officers are always in a dangerous position.
16:47:47 <itidus21> next they'll say that if you elect the right mayors, governors and presidents and prime ministers/premiers, that the laws would somehow be magically fixed
16:48:06 <mroman> But consider that a very dangerous looking dog with fletching teeth is charging at you
16:48:10 <mroman> What would you do?
16:48:14 <itidus21> and that the people are somehow responsible.. maybe they are... but in order to be responsible for the police you really need to have the power to stop them
16:48:16 <mroman> He still just might want to lick your face ;)
16:48:57 <Phantom__Hoover> If it's me? Then yes, I would try to defend myself, especially as we're assuming I'm in a public place.
16:49:20 <mroman> Exactly.
16:49:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Police -are not meant to react like I would-.
16:49:35 <itidus21> well you can't "win"
16:49:38 <mroman> No swap the dangerous looking dog with a regular dog.
16:49:48 <mroman> You probably wouldn't consider him a threat.
16:49:57 <itidus21> you're certainly not allowed to kill the police in self-defence
16:50:10 <mroman> I would.
16:50:14 <Phantom__Hoover> itidus21, that's pretty hazy, actually.
16:50:16 <mroman> because to me he's still a threat.
16:50:19 <itidus21> >_>
16:50:28 <mroman> Also I have a dog phobia.
16:50:31 <itidus21> it's probably not a good place to be
16:50:33 <mroman> So every dog is a threat to me
16:51:17 <mroman> Also.. I wan't to be able to walk on the streets with my hungry lion.
16:51:19 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, and as I keep telling you, this is not comparable to the situation with police.
16:51:27 <mroman> Because she's such a nice cat.
16:51:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Please stop making ridiculous analogies.
16:51:48 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: well i'm not brave.. i endure days in life where i have let the bad people win...
16:51:58 <itidus21> i dunno whats best really
16:52:12 <AnotherTest> Are we talking about dogs? I'm scared.
16:52:13 <itidus21> considering a turtle lives longer than 120 years
16:52:14 <mroman> They are not ridiculous.
16:52:19 <mroman> They just don't involve flexible moral.
16:52:35 <Phantom__Hoover> As kmc pointed out, there is no reasonable course of action for a dog owner to take to avoid their dog getting killed.
16:53:04 <Phantom__Hoover> Other than maybe keep it in a cage.
16:53:32 <itidus21> i think kmc was being sarcastic
16:53:32 <mroman> Well, yes.
16:53:34 <mroman> I agree.
16:53:35 <itidus21> :D
16:53:39 <mroman> But that counts for every animal.
16:54:09 <itidus21> the bad kind of sarcasm where truth is sarcasm
16:54:24 <Phantom__Hoover> Your point seems to simply be that *you* have an irrational fear of dogs and thus it's completely justified to kill them on the spot if they look at you funny.
16:54:41 <mroman> Not exactly.
16:55:00 <mroman> My point is you shouldn't treat dogs different than other animals.
16:55:34 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't know about you but I don't automatically assume all animals want to gore me.
16:55:43 <fizzie> So... you shouldn't shoot them as a matter of protocol? I mean, I don't think they have a habit of shooting anything else.
16:56:16 <AnotherTest> Phantom__Hoover: don't dogs want to protected their owner. If you happen to be trying to arrest the owner, they would attack you?
16:56:47 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, in several of those cases the owner wasn't even present at the time.
16:57:06 <AnotherTest> Well, the property of the owner then?
16:57:17 <mroman> I'm just not a big fan of "subjective views" when it comes to laws.
16:57:40 <mroman> or policies.
16:57:46 <mroman> Either they count or they don't.
16:57:52 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm guessing you don't live in a common-law country.
16:58:10 <kmc> also the police can break the law whenever they want
16:58:14 <kmc> they are rarely punished for it
16:58:16 <mroman> I mean.
16:58:28 <mroman> "You may shoot dangerous dogs when they attack you"
16:58:33 <mroman> "You may not shoot harmless dogs"
16:58:38 <kmc> cops have a code of honor which says they will lie to protect fellow cops
16:58:38 <AnotherTest> kmc: I don't agree. Well, maybe they can, but they shouldn't be able to(trias politicas?)
16:58:40 <Phantom__Hoover> Um...
16:58:48 <mroman> That would leave the question WHEN a dog is dangerous.
16:58:51 <kmc> and they understand the criminal justice system obviously
16:58:54 <kmc> and have connections
16:59:01 <kmc> basically like any other organized crime
16:59:04 <kmc> but with massive state funding
16:59:13 <mroman> That's just too subjective @dangerous or not.
16:59:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Meanwhile as it stands you just want it to be legal to... well, kill any dog if it looks at you funny?
16:59:24 <itidus21> kmc: well they lie over the most trivial things. i learned this once
16:59:27 <mroman> No.
16:59:33 <mroman> I take no joy in killing animalas.
16:59:35 <mroman> *animals
16:59:45 <Phantom__Hoover> I said nothing about joy.
17:00:09 <itidus21> some cops told my neighbours i confessed to stealing underwear off their clothesline..
17:00:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: dogs /are/ not dangerous/not-dangerous, they can all become dangerous
17:00:33 <Phantom__Hoover> But the way you've said it it's legal to kill a dog so long as you thought it was a threat with no effort at all to define what a reasonable definition of threat is.
17:00:39 <itidus21> and, well i didn't steal them, and i didn't confess
17:00:54 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: If he does not charge at you he's not dangerous at that point.
17:01:01 <mroman> If he charges at you he's dangerous.
17:01:03 <Gregor> mroman: Dogs are not delicious/non-delicious, they can all become delicious.
17:01:44 <AnotherTest> You can't kill a cow you do not own. Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to kill a dog you do not own?
17:01:54 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, no, that doesn't work either.
17:02:03 <Gregor> You can kill a cow you don't own if the cow is attacking you.
17:02:07 <Taneb> AnotherTest, what happens if a cow charges at you?
17:02:10 <Gregor> You can kill a person you don't own if they're attacking you.
17:02:11 <Taneb> (cows are really scary)
17:02:15 <Phantom__Hoover> Because for one thing police /do/ need to be able to defend themselves against guard dogs.
17:02:29 <mroman> Well, you can't really kill another person even if he does attack you.
17:02:33 <Phantom__Hoover> The problem is when they can get away with killing any dog that moves towards them.
17:02:37 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, ...yes you can?
17:02:45 <mroman> If he just hits you in the face you can't.
17:02:51 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't know of any legal system which outlaws self-defence.
17:03:01 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: self-defence is restricted to
17:03:05 <mroman> "reasonable defence"
17:03:21 <mroman> Killing an opponent just because he hit you in the face is not reasonable.
17:03:22 <AnotherTest> Gregor(" You can kill a person you don't own if they're attacking you."): that depends of the time we are in
17:03:29 <AnotherTest> and county!
17:03:35 <mroman> at least in my country it is restricted.
17:03:52 <mroman> You probably are not even allowed to break his arm or something like that.
17:04:18 <Phantom__Hoover> You would definitely be allowed to break their arm.
17:04:28 <AnotherTest> In some countries you can kill a woman if you sleep with another woman.(well that was in the newspaper...)
17:04:42 <Phantom__Hoover> At least, if it constituted a defence from further assault.
17:04:54 <fizzie> mroman: "Reasonable" is again pretty vague. I mean, I think in the states people can and do shoot regular burglars. There was this one guy who had his car stolen, and then when the thief was driving away, shot and killed him. If I'm not mistaken, that was considered reasonable.
17:04:54 <mroman> Well no.
17:04:56 <mroman> Technically
17:04:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Where the line is actually drawn is determined, at least here, by a jury.
17:05:00 <AnotherTest> mroman: self-defense is allowed I think
17:05:01 <mroman> If he hit you in the face
17:05:02 <fizzie> The states being the united ones.
17:05:06 <mroman> you are NOT ALLOWED to do anything.
17:05:32 <Phantom__Hoover> So it's basically impossible to actually say what they are ahead of time.
17:05:33 <mroman> Because then you would be hitting him.
17:05:35 <mroman> and that's illegal.
17:05:43 <Phantom__Hoover> ...except when it's in self-defence.
17:06:08 <mroman> self-defence only counts while he's attacking.
17:06:14 <Phantom__Hoover> ...which he is.
17:06:16 <AnotherTest> mroman: if somoen had a gun, and he was about to shoot you. Would you be allowed to kill or not?(if you coul)
17:06:17 <mroman> If he hit you in the face once
17:06:19 <AnotherTest> *someone
17:06:28 <mroman> and then just stands there
17:06:33 <mroman> you can't just go and hit him too.
17:06:48 <AnotherTest> dogs could kill
17:06:58 <AnotherTest> but you couldn't
17:07:00 <AnotherTest> I don't like that
17:07:07 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, except like I said it's up to the jury to decide whether it was reasonable to assume they would continue to attack.
17:07:14 <mroman> You are allowed to defend yourself before an attack, or while he's still attacking.
17:07:17 <mroman> but not after he attacked.
17:07:27 <mroman> because that's not defending anymore of course.
17:07:32 <Phantom__Hoover> So yes, if they punched you in the face then ran away it would probably be illegal to run them down and break their arm.
17:07:33 <fizzie> "A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that designates a person's abode (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as a car or place of work) as a place in which the person has certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances use force, up to and including deadly force, to defend against an ...
17:07:40 <fizzie> ... intruder without becoming liable to prosecution." I mean, they have that thing.
17:08:28 <Gregor> mroman: What broken country do you live in where self defense is illegal X_X
17:08:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, /whois says Switzerland.
17:08:49 <AnotherTest> "mroman: You are allowed to defend yourself before an attack, or while he's still attacking." Seems like it's legal.
17:08:50 <Gregor> ... SWITZERLAND?
17:08:56 <fizzie> Anyway, self-defense is rather tightly controlled in Finland too.
17:09:02 <Phantom__Hoover> (I did that earlier to see if he did live in a common-law country.)
17:09:05 <Gregor> I believe that your interpretation of the law is probably broken.
17:09:10 <Taneb> I'm gonna do an elliott and part until conversation improves
17:09:11 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving").
17:09:12 <AnotherTest> in Belgium, you can get around any law really
17:09:22 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, how?
17:09:24 <fizzie> Gregor: They're armed to repel foreign intruders, you know.
17:09:32 <Gregor> fizzie: That's besides the point ;)
17:09:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Waiting 'til there's no government again?
17:09:51 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: it's full of back-doors
17:09:52 <mroman> Gregor: Well.
17:09:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
17:10:04 <mroman> That's not very uncommon @you have to go to the army
17:10:14 <mroman> in european countries.
17:10:20 <AnotherTest> not belgium!
17:10:20 <mroman> And that's not it.
17:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, but that's, like, self-defence against foreigners.
17:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean
17:10:37 <mroman> You have to be a soldat, and you have to be a fire-fighter in switzerland.
17:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> If a Russian immigrated illegally and then robbed you
17:10:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Would that allow you to shoot them in self-defence?
17:11:05 <mroman> hopefully not.
17:11:17 <mroman> depends on how he robbed you.
17:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, that was purely a joke aimed at fizzie.
17:13:10 <mroman> "olice officers have also recently shot dogs that were chained, tied, or leashed -- obviously posing no real threat to officers who killed them. "
17:13:15 <mroman> ^- Ok. That is SICK.
17:13:25 <mroman> but understandable.
17:13:30 <itidus21> :P
17:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Understandable?
17:13:36 <kmc> hey there needs to be a grossly disproportionate punishment for being suspected of owning a small amount of a plant
17:13:38 <mroman> You'd have to recognize first that he's on a leash.
17:13:46 <mroman> but police officers should be trained to do so.
17:13:50 <mroman> which makes it sick.
17:14:03 <mroman> also you have to make assumptions about the length of the leash.
17:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, calling it 'a plant' as if that's so ultra-reasonable is disingenuous.
17:14:12 <mroman> Even if he's on a leash he still might reach you.
17:14:23 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: everyone knows what i'm talking about
17:14:33 <fizzie> There were also some stories like this one guy to whom the police said that "we won't harm your dog if you put him in the bathroom and close the door", then (after he had done so) went and opened the door, shot the dog, for no other apparent reason than to get some water to drink.
17:14:36 <mroman> As you see. It is not that easy for a police officer.
17:14:42 <fizzie> Is that also understandable?
17:14:48 <fizzie> I mean, they could've been in danger of thirst.
17:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course; I'm saying that you're making out that it's completely ridiculous to regulate posession of a plant.
17:15:00 <kmc> not really
17:15:04 <mroman> fizzie: Well, no.
17:15:08 <mroman> @understandable
17:15:08 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:15:14 <fizzie> Anyway, regarding shooting someone who just tries to rob you, here's some Florida statutes: "a person is justified in the use of deadly force -- if: He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm -- A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm -- if: (a) The person against whom the ...
17:15:20 <fizzie> ... defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, -- and (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred."
17:15:32 <fizzie> That really sounds quite much like you can shoot people who aren't directly in the process of attacking you personally.
17:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW killing burglars is definitely not legal in the UK.
17:16:00 <fizzie> It's very much not legal here too.
17:16:19 <fizzie> As for US, I am under the impression that how legal it is varies quite much depending on the state in question.
17:16:42 <mroman> I don't think it's allowed in switzerland @killing burglars.
17:16:46 <AnotherTest> It would be legal here if you caused an error in the investigation(causing you not to get any punishment)
17:17:07 <AnotherTest> (you'd need just 1 person on the inside to do that)
17:17:08 <mroman> It's even technically your fault if a burglar falls down your staircaise.
17:17:19 <mroman> *case
17:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnotherTest, well come on, any legal system can be subverted from the inside.
17:17:44 <mroman> anyway
17:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just "it would be legal here if you had a corrupt policeman on your side", which is true basically everywhere.
17:17:47 <oklopol> in finnish law, is it less wrong to kill a burglar than a random guy? (assuming that you say you did not consider yourself to be in danger.)
17:17:58 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: true, but here you could just leak a single sentence of the documents and it would be fine
17:18:03 <mroman> I'm all for "not killing the dogs" if you pay the money to train police officers for such situations.
17:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, it says /in the article/ that they've been offered free training multiple times.
17:18:32 <mroman> For every police officer?
17:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's the police's own damn fault to ensure the safety of the public from the police.
17:18:41 <mroman> Then they are idiots.
17:18:44 <AnotherTest> Then it seems like they were just having some sadistic fun.
17:18:50 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't think there's a difference. The bit about "hätävarjelu" just says: "Aloitetun tai välittömästi uhkaavan oikeudettoman hyökkäyksen torjumiseksi tarpeellinen puolustusteko on hätävarjeluna sallittu, jollei teko ilmeisesti ylitä sitä, mitä on pidettävä kokonaisuutena arvioiden puolustettavana, kun otetaan huomioon hyökkäyksen laatu ja voimakkuus, puolustautujan ja ...
17:18:56 <fizzie> ... hyökkääjän henkilö sekä muut olosuhteet." I haven't seen anything that would let you use more force when you're defending your home or some-such.
17:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how do Finnish sentencing laws work though.
17:20:10 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, well, there's also 5§ pakkotila: "Muun kuin edellä 4 §:ssä tarkoitetun, oikeudellisesti suojattua etua uhkaavan välittömän ja pakottavan vaaran torjumiseksi tarpeellinen teko on pakkotilatekona sallittu, jos teko on kokonaisuutena arvioiden puolustettava, kun otetaan huomioon pelastettavan edun ja teolla aiheutetun vahingon ja haitan laatu ja suuruus, vaaran alkuperä sekä ...
17:20:16 <fizzie> ... muut olosuhteet." So I guess you could argue something related to that if you were repelling a burglar, but not if you were just killing some random dude who hadn't done anything.
17:20:31 <fizzie> Except I doubt they'd ever considered deadly force "reasonable".
17:20:41 <oklopol> okay
17:23:42 <fizzie> Also even if you do something unreasonable, you can't get punished if it's not possible to reasonably expect you to have behaved otherwise in the situation, considering element of surprise etc. (I think that bit is there to give some leniency where you can't really make a full analysis of legality before acting.)
17:24:20 <oklopol> interesting
17:25:15 <fizzie> Also if e.g. the attacker has a fake gun and you hurt him trying to defend yourself, even though you weren't actually in any danger.
17:25:51 <fizzie> Apparently supplementary materials clarify it so that you have more wiggle room when defending your person than your property.
17:26:09 <fizzie> So here you shouldn't probably shoot after a car thief.
17:28:06 <fizzie> Actually that case was mostly interesting because the original car owner killed the thief, then afterwards the car hit someone else, and the someone else's insurance company argued the "acts of uninsured motorists" insurance won't cover it, because the car wasn't operated by an uninsured motorist (the thief), because he was dead at the time, and therefore could not be operating a vehicle.
17:28:15 <fizzie> I don't recall how it actually went in the end.
17:28:33 <fizzie> I don't think anyone was blaming the car owner of anything, though.
17:29:04 <oklopol> :D
17:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What if he had died at the wheel and then it had hit someone>?
17:30:23 <fizzie> I don't really know. I think it should be an analoguous case.
17:30:38 <fizzie> "The fact that the jury came back with a verdict of $450,000 probably tells us something about what it thought of the insurer's position."
17:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> are those finn moneys
17:31:17 <fizzie> No, this was a US blog.
17:32:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:32:43 <Taneb> Hello
17:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> yay taneb, quick everyone talk about dogs again
17:33:10 <Taneb> My dog got attacked by a different dog a while back
17:33:20 <Taneb> That dog later killed a third dog
17:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> did it shoot the third dog
17:33:33 <fizzie> On the other hand, apparently in New Zealand you shouldn't throw a spear into the head of someone who stole your wallet: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10502759
17:33:37 <Phantom_Hoover> was the third dog coming right for it
17:42:58 <fizzie> oklopol: I found you four cases that illustrate self-defense, you can refer to these next time when you think whether you should kill a dude or not: http://sprunge.us/XIVh
17:43:26 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I would never kill someone
17:43:31 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I wouldn't dare to
17:43:56 <AnotherTest> (and I don't understand finish)
17:44:08 <AnotherTest> (but alright that wasn't for me)
17:45:39 <fizzie> (For non-Finns, in the last case someone guarding a a gas station had shot a burglar to the leg, causing permanent injury, and was fined 10000 FIM (about 1700 EUR, 2100 USD) because a gun was considered a too dangerous means for primary defense purposes for a private individual.
17:47:55 <fizzie> (But in #3 someone had shot dead a dude that had broken in his house and threatened everyone there with a shotgun; apparently due to "fast escalation of the situation" it wasn't reasonable to expect him to be able to aim away from vital spots, so he wasn't convicted.)
17:49:04 <fizzie> (So you can in fact kill people here and get away with it, it just requires a very legitimate-looking threat and you probably should mostly be focusing on saving yourself and not especially much on killing the other guy.)
17:49:15 <mroman> It's probably not that easy to know where you can "safely" shoot someone.
17:49:25 <mroman> I'd probably go for the calves?
17:49:47 <Taneb> No such thing as safely shooting someone
17:49:56 <mroman> Well
17:50:01 <mroman> In this context safely means
17:50:06 <mroman> "No permanent injury, not dead"
17:50:18 <mroman> and "not bleeding to death within reasonable time"
17:50:42 <Taneb> How much of an area of error are we allowing?
17:51:04 <mroman> "Regular guy aim"-tolerance?
17:51:14 <mroman> 5 cm probably.
17:51:25 <mroman> but I have absolutely no idea
17:51:48 <mroman> I never shot a gun.
17:52:03 <Taneb> I've shot an unloaded air pistol.
17:52:06 <Taneb> Does that count?
17:52:16 <mroman> But I assume someone who can is able to hit a circle with 5cm radius?
17:52:32 <Taneb> I'd go for butt
17:52:53 <Taneb> But I only heard that was the safest in the context of stabbing
17:53:02 <fizzie> mroman: I would really assume that depends on the distance.
17:53:17 <mroman> Well
17:53:26 <mroman> In case of a robbery 10m is probably the maximum distance.
17:53:33 <fizzie> I've shot one of those air "rifle" things too. It had a bit of an issue that when you made it go from the loading mode "L" shape into the firing mode "|" shape, it had about 80% chance of automatically firing. In retrospect, it perhaps wasn't the safest device around?
17:54:17 <mroman> 10m means he's standing in the living room and you're in the next room but can shoot him through the open door 10m
17:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman> In this context safely means
17:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman> "No permanent injury, not dead"
17:54:35 <mroman> and he's just thinking of shooting your dog.
17:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No such place.
17:54:44 <fizzie> (It was very old.)
17:54:57 <mroman> I've heard so too.
17:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You can never guarantee you won't sever a nerve, for one thing.
17:55:10 <mroman> Aparently shooting someone in the leg creates a pressure in the veins
17:55:27 <mroman> which kill you even if its just a grazing shot.
17:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Shooting someone in the leg carries a high risk of opening an artery.
17:56:43 <fizzie> In #3, the chosen place -- well, according to the text he didn't have a chance to aim at all -- was the chest. Even given that no place is safe, that was maybe not the optimal place.
17:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's complicated by the fact that he was threatening people with a shotgun.
17:57:25 <mroman> But I've seen that in movies! @chest
17:57:35 <mroman> 'Salt' maybe :)
17:57:51 <mroman> No idea
17:58:15 <tswett> fizzie: I tried OOo Base. It wasn't very good.
17:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Shooting someone in the chest is extremely dangerous but it's also far from a quick or even definite kill.
17:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, why would you
17:58:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
17:59:08 <fizzie> tswett: *pretending to look surprised here*
17:59:10 <tswett> augur_: I think Proce has a really weird paradigm. One of these days, I need to rewrite the spec so that it actually makes sense.
17:59:26 <fizzie> What's your underlying database, anyway? My?
17:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So we're all in agreement that you should at least not shoot people a lot?
18:01:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's this sort of thing why I suggested we form a superhero team in Glasgow
18:01:50 <Taneb> That, and we can both get there by train
18:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> So we can shoot people?
18:03:10 <tswett> fizzie: my underlying database is whatever I feel like installing.
18:03:14 <tswett> I don't feel like installing anything.
18:03:37 <tswett> But Sqlite is already installed.
18:03:46 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I had somehow assumed administration of an existing database.
18:04:08 <fizzie> I think there's a Firefox extension for that.
18:04:42 <fizzie> So it's kind-of half-self-contained.
18:06:06 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:06:21 <tswett> What I have is a personal database, containing tables that are just to-do lists or such things.
18:06:40 -!- nortti has joined.
18:07:03 <tswett> Since I am not a computer program, I don't particularly feel like writing a SQL query every time I want to do something.
18:07:54 <mroman> So you're implying that the matrix does not exist, eh?
18:08:36 <tswett> Let me rephrase that. I am not a computer program whose source code I can feasibly rewrite.
18:08:48 <tswett> Or, if I can, I don't know how.
18:11:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, so we can stop other people shooting yet other people
18:11:52 <fizzie> I had a database like that once, and I made it out of sqlite and a quick-and-dirty UI using some scripting language and a curses-like package. But that's of course a hassle.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Okay, it wasn't exactly like that, and had some things for which a program was handy.
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18:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> We don't have much gun crime in the UK...
18:19:35 <Gregor> And all of our crime is gun crime in the states.
18:19:36 <Gregor> So we balance out.
18:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> We do have shitloads of knife crime and, increasingly, sword crime, so there's that.
18:23:04 <oklopol> we don't have any crime in finland
18:24:41 <Gregor> There's no crime in Murdertopia!
18:24:47 <Gregor> Because everything's legal in Murdertopia!
18:25:13 <oklopol> i don't count victimless crimes and finns are not people
18:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What about beating up swedes
18:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> is that a crime in finland
18:31:48 <fizzie> The traditional Finnish crime is axe crime.
18:33:09 <Gregor> s/crime/pastime/
18:33:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sword crime? really?
18:34:42 <fizzie> "Työttömyys, viina, kirves ja perhe / lumihanki, poliisi ja viimeinen erhe", they sing in a well-known song. (Butchering the lyrics, that's something like "unemployment, booze, an axe and the family / a snowbank, the police and the final mistake".)
18:37:00 <fizzie> (The song also has parts that are not just listing related words.)
18:38:25 <oklopol> would you cry out of happiness?
18:38:57 <fizzie> That's not a work-safe song.
18:39:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, why do you ask?
18:39:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a translated song title too.
18:39:28 <Vorpal> oh
18:39:29 <Vorpal> right
18:39:36 <fizzie> Does it mention an axe later? I only know the first bit.
18:39:38 <oklopol> i didn't know those lyrics, because i've always stopped listening after would you cry out of happiness if i fucked you real nice.
18:40:02 <fizzie> oklopol: Yeah, it apparently goes to rather different themes afterwards, fancy that.
18:40:03 <oklopol> (the first few seconds, iirc the song has no repetition)
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18:40:37 <oklopol> (i guess i accidentally admitted i have heard the whole song)
18:40:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually in a rather non-Finnish turn of events, it seems to be about gun crime instead.
18:41:21 <fizzie> Also they repeat the bit about how unfairly luck is shared among people.
18:41:31 <oklopol> oh.
18:41:48 <fizzie> But not the part about fucking.
18:41:50 <oklopol> okay that does sound chorusy.
18:42:20 <oklopol> well i got the album when i was something like 10 so that was the only part i cared about.
18:44:34 <Sgeo> Should I work on SICP a little despite being sleep deprived?
18:45:29 <oklopol> i didn't quite get this song.
18:45:31 <fizzie> Also, a lyrics site has done the ä/ae translation, resulting in the song "Ei Saeaestae Perheen Koiraakaan". (That song, incidentally, also includes an axe. Or at least refers to one.)
18:45:53 <fizzie> 'saeaestae' makes quite a word.
18:46:14 <oklopol> erm
18:46:37 <oklopol> yeah when i said would you cry out of happiness, i tried to ask if the line was from that.
18:46:44 <fizzie> Oh.
18:46:46 <fizzie> Okay.
18:46:48 <fizzie> No, it wasn't.
18:46:52 <oklopol> because a google search had those in the same entry
18:47:01 <oklopol> *my
18:47:25 <fizzie> It's from The Land of Mournful Songs.
18:48:27 <fizzie> In the second stanza, the protagonist is all set to never even get an axe; in the fifth, well...
18:48:31 <fizzie> (The quote was from that.)
18:48:32 <oklopol> i just have a random collection of their songs
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18:49:49 <fizzie> I only know the songs that they play on the radio. Or played, I guess.
18:51:50 <oklopol> we used to play some of the songs with a couple of friends (a bit over 10 years ago)
18:52:01 <fizzie> Also I think there was a parody version of that "voi kuinka me sinua kaivataan" song.
18:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sword crime? really?
18:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah; IIRC they were becoming more and more popular amongst organised criminals.
18:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because nobody bothered to regulate them at first, although that changed fairly quickly.
18:55:42 <fizzie> I think I actually saw something about that somewhere.
18:56:00 <fizzie> In the context of setting up some sword regulation laws.
18:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was just extending the existing knife laws to swords, admittedly.
19:00:57 <oklopol> was it legal to kill with a sword?
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19:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think so.
19:02:32 <Sgeo> Dexterity Software > Personal Development for Smart People
19:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> There is that thing with the crossbow and the hill in Wales (or is it York)?
19:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> That's very helpful Sgeo now you might want to say that to some people who know what either of those things are.
19:03:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, a blog post on Personal Development for Smart People: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/02/1111/
19:03:48 <oklopol> i'm not even sure i know what Smart People means
19:04:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'd link you to Dexterity Software, but Steve took it down to focus on... the blog I just linked
19:04:11 <itidus21> my guess is dexterity software is a product for smart people made by an eponymous copany
19:04:23 <itidus21> ^company
19:04:54 <itidus21> yeah... ieponymous i spell correctly
19:04:57 <itidus21> eddiewdjiewdjiewjioewjdiewjiowe
19:05:07 <itidus21> now i feel a proper prat
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19:08:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, web archive of Dexterity Software http://web.archive.org/web/20031218062802/http://www.dexterity.com/
19:08:56 <oklopol> yeah Phantom_Hoover here's the info you were requesting.
19:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
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19:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> thank you sgeo now i can enjoy this even more
19:09:31 <Sgeo> ......I was able to actually download one of the game demos o.O
19:09:59 <Vorpal> what is the name of that firefox add-on that allows you to modify how pages display, overriding parts of them. SomethingMonkey iirc?
19:10:17 <oklopol> GreaseMonkey, after the esolanger
19:10:30 <Vorpal> heh
19:10:40 <Vorpal> haven't seen him in a while
19:10:53 <oerjan> <mroman> Why is there no information included AT which cell a constant stops? <-- i think until recently there were no examples without balanced loops so it was easy to deduce.
19:10:58 <Vorpal> now is there a GreaseMonkey for chrome I wonder..
19:11:50 <oerjan> nope, esolangers are incompatible with chrome. see: Gregor
19:12:00 <Vorpal> what does Gregor have against chrome?
19:12:35 <oerjan> allergy.
19:12:43 <Vorpal> why?
19:13:01 * oerjan notes strong winds in the sky today
19:13:13 <fizzie> There's some sort of a semi-compatible thing, I believe.
19:13:13 <Deewiant> Vorpal: http://www.greasemonkeyforchrome.com/
19:13:17 <Vorpal> I switched off my humor engine for today
19:13:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, thanks
19:14:25 <Vorpal> support built in or what? Huh
19:15:09 <oklopol> Vorpal: chrome refers to colors, and Gregor is allergic to certain colors
19:15:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well all I want to do is actually override some CSS.
19:15:36 <oklopol> (only some really obscure ones, and it's just a slight eye rash, but still)
19:16:05 <oerjan> <Vorpal> http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644 <-- i am reminded of the book Tordyveln flyger i skymningen
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19:16:31 <oerjan> (that's the original swedish title, of course i read it in norwegian)
19:16:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, that title sounds slightly familiar. No clue what it is about though
19:17:32 <oerjan> afair it's a children's mystery with mystical elements. the namesake tordivel is an omen...
19:17:45 <Vorpal> I see
19:18:04 <oerjan> and i think there were egyptian mummies involved, or something like that
19:19:00 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever read that
19:19:10 * oerjan thinks of one more thing but that would be a major spoiler.
19:19:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway the thing was not a tordyvel
19:19:43 <oerjan> no, but the tordyvel in the book was a stand-in for an egyptian scarab
19:19:53 <Vorpal> uhu
19:20:53 <oerjan> not that your picture looks like the one on wikipedia for that, but anyway the exact species is flexible for this :P
19:21:53 <Gregor> Since when am I anti-Chrome.
19:22:03 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:22:03 <Gregor> I use Firefox, but I hate every browser.
19:22:06 <Taneb> Hello
19:22:08 <oerjan> wtf check the first picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarabaeidae#Gallery :P
19:22:22 <oklopol> winds are indeed strong today
19:24:25 <oerjan> (and by that i mean, compare to Vorpal's pictures at https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644)
19:24:48 <oerjan> it may of course just be similar.
19:24:50 <itidus21> i once found a scarab beetle in the garden
19:25:27 <itidus21> it was dead, but i won't go on
19:25:50 <oklopol> those are not only the same type of beetle, they are actually the _same beetle_
19:26:00 <oerjan> oklopol: PLAUSIBLE
19:26:17 <oerjan> i'd have liked a picture that was from the same angle...
19:27:10 <oklopol> well you can see his face
19:27:16 <oklopol> and you can't mistake those eyes
19:27:29 <itidus21> oklopol: kind of like if turtles took photos of humans and 2 different turtles uploded it to different websites and my eyes are so tired i am typing with my eyes shut
19:27:47 <oklopol> :D
19:27:50 <oklopol> exactly
19:28:18 <Gregor> All the channels I've on have gone crazy today.
19:28:49 <itidus21> which wouldn't be much of an achievement except my touch typing style is all a,s,space k,o,shift
19:29:12 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&safe=off&biw=1071&bih=594&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=chiloloba+acuta&oq=chiloloba+acuta&gs_l=img.3...14015.21281.0.21703. has some such pictures, they don't look convincingly _that_ similar.
19:30:28 <oerjan> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_Scarab_Beetle_(Chiloloba_acuta)_W_IMG_3433.jpg in particular
19:32:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: hey wait your pictures are named "Cetonia Aurata"
19:33:33 <oerjan> oh, that's also a scarabaeid
19:37:57 <oerjan> oh right you discussed it in channel
19:38:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the chiloloba is a better fit to your pictures than the cetonia, even if it's still not perfect
19:40:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetonia_aurata#In_popular_culture XD
19:43:35 <Taneb> I've just updated family-tree
19:43:36 * oerjan is going to guess the swedish book was _inspired_ by that Jung story
19:48:17 <oerjan> here are a bunch of related candidates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cetoniinae50.jpg
19:49:06 <mroman> 21:48 < mroman> I'm tempted to create Beamjoust :)
19:49:28 <mroman> I should read in which channel I am than just assume in which channel I left the computer :D
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19:57:25 <nortti> "As far as I've learned from my time on the Internet, First Amendment rights are violated whenever any of the following happen:"
19:57:28 <nortti> "1. A person is told to shut up by a moderator or administrator."
19:57:31 <nortti> "2. A person is told to shut up by an ordinary community member."
19:57:33 <nortti> "3. A person is told their ideas are stupid."
19:57:48 <mroman> What is the first amendment?
19:57:57 <Taneb> US law
19:58:05 <nortti> US free speech law
19:58:28 <Taneb> Basically says Congress can't outlaw religion or speech
19:58:31 <oklopol> it says you are allowed to speak
19:58:36 <oklopol> second is that you are allowed to walk
19:58:37 <mroman> As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as free speech
19:58:51 <mroman> I don't know any country that allows free spech.
19:58:55 <Taneb> Yeah, but you live in an isolationist, far right country
19:59:18 <nortti> where he lisev?
19:59:21 <nortti> *lives
19:59:28 <Taneb> Switzerland, I believe
19:59:33 <mroman> I'm pretty sury there is no free speech in the US.
19:59:35 <mroman> *sure
19:59:55 <Taneb> They have to at least pretend there is
19:59:57 <mroman> If you can't say whatever the heck you wan't it's not *really* _free_ speech.
20:00:16 <mroman> It's free speech, but you can not say that, this nor that thing.
20:00:41 <oklopol> mroman: like if you walk to a shop and say you have a gun and are going to start killing if they don't give you everything
20:00:52 <mroman> No.
20:00:55 <oklopol> oh.
20:01:03 <Vorpal> <oerjan> wtf check the first picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarabaeidae#Gallery :P <-- it has more hair around the edges?
20:01:12 <mroman> You are not allowed to deny the holocaust.
20:01:20 <mroman> It's forbidden to say that.
20:01:23 <oklopol> you aren't?
20:01:25 <mroman> There are racism laws.
20:01:25 <oklopol> o_O
20:01:35 <mroman> Which means that it is forbidden to say certain things.
20:01:37 <Taneb> It's not forbidden to deny the holocaust
20:01:39 <Taneb> I'll demonstrate
20:01:47 <mroman> Taneb: It is in my country.
20:01:47 <Taneb> The holocaust never happened
20:01:54 <nortti> in israel it is
20:01:55 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: hey wait your pictures are named "Cetonia Aurata" <-- Deewiant figured out what they were, so I renamed the files
20:02:01 <Taneb> mroman, you live in a far-right isolationist country
20:02:06 <Vorpal> (the confusion of log reading! yay)
20:02:16 <mroman> But you still have racism laws in the US?
20:02:23 <Taneb> I dunno, I'm in the UK
20:02:33 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the chiloloba is a better fit to your pictures than the cetonia, even if it's still not perfect <-- hm? Which one is that?
20:02:57 <mroman> You can't publicly say that "$Those-People are $Bad-Thing"
20:03:14 <oklopol> i suppose there's racism laws in finland as well, but they are about as meaningful as piracy laws unless you're famous. unless it's a direct insult ofc.
20:03:15 <oerjan> Vorpal: the one in the gallery. actually i'm not sure any more.
20:03:24 <mroman> Which completely busts free speech.
20:03:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, that one seems to exist in India, not Sweden
20:03:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, get a grip
20:03:38 -!- olsner has joined.
20:03:38 <mroman> Free speech means to me, that you can state your opinion, no matter what opinion you have.
20:03:47 <mroman> Nobody has to agree with your opinion, but you are allowed to say it.
20:03:59 <mroman> and thats just not allowed in most (european) countries.
20:04:02 <Taneb> Free speech does not mean you must be allowed to act on your opinion
20:04:19 <mroman> It doesn't, yes.
20:04:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway mine had the faint white streaks that the Swedish wikipedia on the type we went for mentioned
20:04:35 <mroman> but "speech" somehow implies to me, that you can say your opinion publicly
20:04:56 <Taneb> I think you are allowed to say "I don't like those people"
20:05:08 <Taneb> But you're not allowed to say "Kill those people whenever you see them"
20:05:16 <Taneb> Unless you're a government
20:05:18 <mroman> Exactly.
20:05:22 <mroman> @Kill those people
20:05:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:05:30 <mroman> What?
20:05:38 <mroman> lambdabot just noted to kill those people.
20:05:39 -!- Taneb has changed nick to those.
20:05:41 <mroman> That's sick!
20:05:41 <those> Hello
20:05:41 <lambdabot> those: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:05:42 <Vorpal> heh
20:05:46 <those> @messages
20:05:46 <lambdabot> mroman said 24s ago: people
20:05:52 -!- those has changed nick to Taneb.
20:05:55 <Vorpal> mroman, it does fuzzy matching on command
20:05:58 <Vorpal> commands*
20:06:04 <Vorpal> so it went kill -> tell I guess
20:06:10 <Vorpal> the hamming distance is just 2 after all!
20:06:12 <nortti> so is @kill really @tell
20:06:33 <olsner> @Kill nortti maybe?
20:06:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:06:38 <mroman> Taneb: And what does that mean for free speech if I can't say "Kill those people"
20:06:44 <mroman> not that somebody ever should say something like that
20:06:55 <nortti> olsner: why?
20:06:55 <Taneb> mroman, because it's provocative of violence
20:06:55 <lambdabot> nortti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:07:03 <nortti> @messages
20:07:03 <lambdabot> olsner said 29s ago: maybe?
20:07:08 <oerjan> @kill all humans
20:07:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: keal kind tell
20:07:15 <oerjan> wat
20:07:20 <oerjan> oh hm
20:07:25 <nortti> @kill oerjan bwahahaha
20:07:25 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: keal kind tell
20:07:30 <mroman> Taneb: It is.
20:07:33 <oerjan> @Kill all humans
20:07:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:07:39 <nortti> @kill oerjan foo
20:07:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: keal kind tell
20:07:47 <nortti> @Kill oerjan foo
20:07:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:07:57 <mroman> But the fact that you are not allowed to *say* that sentence somehow tells me that the idea of "free speech" is not that "free".
20:07:58 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAA
20:07:58 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:08:01 <oerjan> @messages
20:08:02 <lambdabot> nortti said 15s ago: foo
20:08:21 <oklopol> if "free speech" really meant that you can say absolutely anything you like in any possible situation, then free speech could naturally never be allowed.
20:08:24 <mroman> it's more or less "You can say what you want, except what we don't whant you to say"
20:08:25 <Vorpal> mroman, what sentence?
20:08:31 <Taneb> mroman, you're allowed to say it, just not where a lot of people who view you as a leader can listen?
20:08:33 <Taneb> I dunnoi
20:08:55 <Taneb> My knowledge of the legal procedure in my own country is limited, much less in the US and Switzerland
20:09:03 <mroman> oklopol: Which is why "free speech" does not exist to me ;)
20:09:16 <itidus21> i guess what it boils down to is you can say what you like, but people can also react how they like to what you say
20:09:25 <oklopol> mroman: well okay, but then that's kind of a stupid definition
20:09:27 <mroman> free speech in it's purest form at least.
20:09:40 <itidus21> which means that the concept of free is moot in the case i describe
20:09:46 <mroman> I don't agree with the name of it.
20:10:03 <mroman> In German its "Meinungsfreiheit: Jeder hat das Recht seine Meinung frei zu äussern"
20:10:03 <oklopol> because most important things in life happen via speech
20:10:07 <oerjan> there's that famous "shouting fire in a crowded theater" example which i think some us supreme court judge came up with
20:10:12 <mroman> which means in english: Everyone has the right to state his opinion.
20:10:23 <mroman> But the fact is: He can not.
20:10:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, and what did they conclude on that?
20:10:45 <mroman> and that means the sentence "Everyone has the right to state his opinion" is bogus.
20:10:50 <mroman> Because it is not true.
20:10:53 <itidus21> mroman: ahh rights.. i don't know what a right is fundamentally. i tried asking my mum once. she didn't give me a clear answer
20:11:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, so read up on it instead?
20:11:13 <mroman> The same applies to the freedom of religion thingy
20:11:18 <mroman> whatever you call that ;)
20:11:26 <mroman> It does not exist either.
20:11:28 <itidus21> Vorpal: well this was years ago :P
20:11:39 <Vorpal> okay
20:11:39 <mroman> It has a fancy name like "free speech" but that's it.
20:11:42 <itidus21> but, honestly i don't think anyone could define precisely what a right is
20:11:49 <oerjan> "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
20:12:04 <itidus21> i think a right at it's most fundamental level is beyond analysis
20:12:04 <oklopol> it's just i don't think it's the stating the opinion that's outlawed, you can tell it to your friends and if a cop finds out he won't care.
20:12:28 <Vorpal> fair enough
20:12:33 <itidus21> hehe
20:12:34 <oklopol> saying you hate niggers is just, i suppose, a weak version of telling someone to kill someone
20:12:45 <itidus21> ahh
20:13:07 <Taneb> FBI: for the record, I do not hate niggers, do do I deny the holocaust happened
20:13:12 <Taneb> CIA: ditto
20:13:18 -!- itidus20 has joined.
20:13:27 <itidus20> gah
20:13:32 <Vorpal> mroman, you can probably still say that you think saying "I like to kill black people" should be allowed though
20:13:33 <itidus20> ahh
20:13:36 <itidus20> what i believe is..
20:13:52 <Vorpal> Taneb, "do do"?
20:14:04 <Taneb> s/do do/nor do/
20:14:09 <oerjan> <itidus21> [...] i tried asking my mum once. she didn't give me a clear answer <-- did it end with "but you still have to clean your room"?
20:14:10 <Taneb> I don't even know what's wrong with me
20:14:11 <Vorpal> heh, weird typo
20:14:21 <oklopol> FBI and CIA: i hate niggers, the holocaust did not happen, and my hd is full of snuff, child pornography and secret al qaeda documents.
20:14:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
20:14:28 <mroman> Vorpal: I have nothing against these laws
20:14:37 <mroman> but they should be defined in other words, so that they actually are true.
20:14:42 <itidus20> that, ideally if someone claims to hold a racist view, it would be nice if they could actually be exposed to experiences of living and working alongside the race they claim to hate
20:14:47 <oklopol> everyone else: j/k
20:14:48 <Vorpal> mhm
20:14:50 <mroman> else there just a sharade.
20:15:32 <mroman> like
20:15:36 <itidus20> basically i think for the most part segregation itself gives rise to racist views
20:15:53 <itidus20> but, i think there are also racists who are much more deeply racist
20:15:54 <mroman> Everyone has the right to state his opinion, unless it interferes with the general public opinion of the corresponding topic.
20:16:03 <Taneb> Wow, I managed to here sharade as faade
20:16:07 <Taneb> Can...
20:16:18 <mroman> or something like that ;)
20:16:26 <Taneb> Can someone recommend a psychiatrist?
20:16:29 <oerjan> oklopol: so you're not really up to snuff?
20:16:35 <mroman> *charade
20:16:47 <oklopol> oerjan: is there a pun i'm missing?
20:16:51 <Vorpal> itidus20, I believe it is a fear of the unknown, so yes segregation doesn't help. But then why did that segregation happen originally?
20:16:54 <oklopol> snuff is not a victimless crime
20:17:02 <mroman> snuff?
20:17:07 <oklopol> unlike the rest
20:17:08 <oerjan> oklopol: yes there is
20:17:16 <Taneb> Snuff is in the stuff you stick up your nose
20:17:17 <olsner> oerjan: what's the pun?
20:17:19 <Gregor> I'm currently playing a trumpet with oboe fingering.
20:17:20 <Gregor> It's surreal.
20:17:24 <Vorpal> Taneb, don't you need an ear doctor instead then?
20:17:24 <Taneb> Is a victimless probably non-crime
20:17:30 <oklopol> erm okay cp i guess can be a bit victimful now that i look at my list :D
20:17:31 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:17:41 <Taneb> Vorpal, not if I heard it on the inside of my head
20:17:43 <oerjan> "up to snuff" is a phrase, meaning something like competent
20:17:43 <mroman> Gregor: That is super surreal o_O
20:17:55 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
20:18:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, hearing things on the inside of your head is in general a bad thing
20:18:08 <Vorpal> btw, where is elliott?
20:18:41 <Taneb> Vorpal, dunno, I don't exactly have any contact with him outside this channel and occasionally private messages and #haskell and #esoteric-minecraft
20:18:49 <oklopol> oerjan: okay did not know that one
20:18:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, can you record it? A video preferably
20:19:12 <oklopol> i guess the saying only makes sense if you think snuff is the greatest form of entertainment in the world.
20:19:15 <Gregor> Vorpal, mroman: I /just/ got this electronic wind instrument yesterday, gimme a break
20:19:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, isn't hexham like a small village kind of deal?
20:19:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, almost 12000 people
20:19:39 <mroman> I play a Flugelhorn.
20:19:49 <Taneb> It's not /tiny/
20:19:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, electronic wind instrument? That explains it. Also it sounds awesome
20:20:03 <Vorpal> does it have a midi port on the side?
20:20:08 <Vorpal> in fact, what does it look like?
20:20:10 <mroman> What's the electronic part of it?
20:20:12 <itidus21> Vorpal: well especially the case where it might be claimed i am racist.. i would at least like exposure to the group i hate
20:20:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, I have never met elliott, nor do I plan to
20:20:34 <itidus21> or it would seem they get some great deal of joy out of labelling my hate
20:20:41 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh? Are you a racist?
20:20:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, good for you
20:20:47 <Taneb> By mutual agreement
20:20:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you some sort of elliott-racist!
20:20:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, why?
20:21:16 <Taneb> All the discussion occured in this channel
20:21:22 <Vorpal> I see
20:21:22 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://www.akaipro.com/ewiusb
20:21:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a standard USB MIDI device.
20:21:37 * oerjan recalls back in the 90s or so reading that snuff in the strict sense wasn't proved to exist, and vaguely wonders if that's still true.
20:21:40 <Taneb> The main reason is that we're ridiculously similar in terms of tastes and location that meeting will destroy the universe
20:21:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, does it have a speaker built in?
20:21:51 <Taneb> Which would be a Bad Thing
20:22:30 <itidus21> Vorpal: my point is, i am aware of no benefit derived of being racist.. so i would expect the majority of racists would like the chance to remedy their racism
20:22:45 <itidus21> perhaps that is hugely wishful thinking
20:22:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think the world works that way...
20:22:50 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm descended from the elliott clan on my mother's side!
20:23:02 <Taneb> (actually sort of true)
20:23:06 <Vorpal> otherwise, why would the Bible belt in US still exist?
20:23:10 <itidus21> also if racism is a symptom of some other problem
20:23:19 <oerjan> "The existence of for-profit snuff films is generally considered an urban legend.", so still the same i guess
20:23:48 <itidus21> then it wouldn't go away
20:23:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is the ground plate for on those screenshots? Electrical ground?
20:24:01 <Vorpal> (I never played a wind instrument, I don't know the terminology)
20:24:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: No speaker, it's just a MIDI device. It has nothing to do with either electrical grounding or wind instruments. Well, maybe it does have to do with electrical grounding, it has something to do with how it does touch-detection of the pitch bend area.
20:25:09 <Vorpal> ah
20:25:29 <itidus21> i suppose the benefits for the racist are the same as those of the bully.. having someone to pick on and blame for things and exploit
20:26:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, does it work well (the instrument in general, not the ground plate in specific)
20:26:16 <Gregor> Extremely, actually.
20:26:23 <Vorpal> are you surprised?
20:26:38 <Gregor> Well, I paid $250 for it, so my expectations weren't low, but I'm not disappointed.
20:26:48 <itidus21> i think my habit of sticking to a topic years after it has been dropped is awkward in such cases
20:26:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, what happens if you try to suck air in instead?
20:27:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: You die.
20:27:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, seriously though?
20:27:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: It has near zero airflow, so that's mostly just very unpleasant.
20:27:19 <Gregor> It doesn't hurt anything.
20:27:20 <Vorpal> ah
20:27:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, how can it work with near zero airflow?!
20:27:39 <Vorpal> that doesn't make sense to me
20:28:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: It doesn't produce sound, it just needs a pressure sensor. In principle it could have no airflow whatsoever, but it does have a little bit.
20:28:38 <Vorpal> right, it must be very different to play then from normal wind instruments
20:28:52 <Gregor> I'm told that it's most similar to an oboe, which also has very low airflow.
20:29:03 <Gregor> But yes, real woodwind players apparently complain about its low airflow.
20:29:06 <Vorpal> since instead of stopping breathing out you need to breath in to stop the tone?
20:29:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:29:18 <Gregor> ... no, you don't X-D
20:29:22 <Vorpal> oh?
20:29:24 <Gregor> You just need to stop applying pressure.
20:29:49 <Vorpal> I guess that is why it has a tiny bit of airflow then
20:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So no electric flutes then?
20:29:58 <Gregor> Yes, just enough to be possible ^^
20:30:13 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, they all simulate direct-blown instrument, no transverse.
20:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Pfft/
20:30:31 <Gregor> I think there are electric brass too, but those are crazy-expensive and I'm no lip buzzing expert anyway.
20:30:52 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, they all simulate direct-blown instrument, no transverse. <-- not all flutes are transverse afaik?
20:31:04 <Gregor> The term "flute" usually refers to concert flutes, which are.
20:31:12 <Gregor> Other kinds of flutes are lame and everybody hates them.
20:31:54 <Vorpal> oh right English calls "blockflöjt" "recorder"
20:32:04 <Vorpal> in Swedish "flute" is part of the name of that instrument
20:32:20 <Gregor> In some English dialects, recorders are considered a type of flute.
20:32:28 <Vorpal> right
20:32:28 <Gregor> But usually the word "flute" refers to concert flutes, which are transverse.
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20:32:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about pan flutes, they are transverse still
20:33:05 <Vorpal> but not the same as concert flute
20:33:22 <Vorpal> or is that not called a flute in English either
20:33:23 * Vorpal checks
20:33:45 <Vorpal> well the article name is Pan flute, but the intro text reads "pan pipe".
20:33:56 <Vorpal> that's confusing
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20:43:39 <Gregor> That's called a pan flute, yes X-D
20:43:50 <Gregor> Pretty much any woodwind that doesn't have a reed is a kind of flute.
20:44:01 <Gregor> Just the only one you mean when you don't specify is a concert flute.
20:44:27 <Gregor> If someone said "I play a flute" and then pulled out their recorder or pan flute, you'd call them a dirty liar and punch them in the face.
20:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I know I would.
20:46:18 <olsner> I would say "Indeed you do", because all flutes are flutes
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20:46:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, I see
20:47:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, I don't think there is such a strong connotation of concert flute in the Swedish word "flöjt", though I
20:47:25 <Vorpal> I'm* not a professional musician
20:47:35 <Vorpal> so maybe in those circles that connotation exists
20:49:47 <oklopol> "Vorpal I guess that is why it has a tiny bit of airflow then" erm, you do know that air tends to balance its pressure? you don't need any airflow.
20:50:41 <oklopol> if there was no airflow, it would be even easier to blow forever (ofc not very hard anyway)
20:51:01 <Vorpal> yes obviously, the issue was stopping, not continuing
20:51:52 <mroman> http://xkcd.com/1073/
20:51:57 <Vorpal> I actually have no idea how you could blow a wind instrument forever though. I know there is a way to do it, I just don't know how
20:52:10 <oklopol> yeah but why the heck would you need to breathe in to stop it o_O
20:52:13 <mroman> Can we?
20:52:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, to reduce the absolute pressure on the pressure sensor so it stops making sound?
20:52:56 <oklopol> you think the air pressure increases when you blow and then stays that way until someone explicitly reduces the pressure by sucking?
20:53:00 <mroman> Can one revoke his citizen ship and live in the next forrest for the rest of his live where every day would be saturday?
20:53:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, I assume the sound making is a linear function of the applied pressure compared to ambient pressure?
20:53:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think if you don't allow it to flow back out then it will stay?
20:53:48 <Vorpal> oklopol, of course you could just let it flow back in
20:53:54 <Vorpal> as opposed to actively sucking
20:54:26 <oklopol> erm. okay so yeah if it was a fucking balloon with a one-way valve which somehow still lets stuff out when it's being sucked on i guess.
20:54:52 <oklopol> okay i think we're imagining some details very differently
20:55:08 <Vorpal> that is quite probably the issue yes
20:55:15 <Vorpal> I have no idea how the actual sensor work
20:55:19 <oklopol> you are imagining some sort of insane flabberfleming and i'm imagining something sensible.
20:55:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, a what?
20:55:34 <Vorpal> what is a "flabberfleming"?
20:55:35 <oklopol> a flabberfleming
20:55:43 <Vorpal> which is?
20:55:56 <oklopol> it's exactly what it sounds like.
20:56:03 <Vorpal> and I have no idea what that is
20:56:23 <Vorpal> nor does google
20:56:49 <oklopol> it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside)
20:56:59 <oklopol> which is also an instrument
20:57:17 <oklopol> that's a flabberfleming.
20:57:42 <Vorpal> ...
20:58:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, anyway I'm basically modelling it as a cavity with a small pipe, which you put in your mouth. I was not implying a value, nor was I implying that you would need to actively suck, just that you would need to let air flow back in your mouth to release the pressure. You can't just stop increasing the pressure, the pressure must be reduced to match ambient pressure outside the instrument
20:58:34 <Vorpal> no?
20:58:42 <oklopol> also when you suck on it, almost no air flows, so i suppose the balloon doesn't empty through the mouthpiece when you suck
20:59:11 <oklopol> okay, i see what you mean.
20:59:48 <oklopol> i preferred my flabberfleming interpretation though
21:00:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, while an instrument where air flows through would over time go back to ambient pressure, depending on how much air is allowed to flow through (and the size of the cavity) this may take a long time or happen very quickly
21:00:42 <itidus21> so... i have seen the future of gaming. but i do like this topic of flabberfleming
21:01:00 <Vorpal> you probably want it to be rather slow to work properly though, since it is not the air flow as such that is creating the sound
21:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside)
21:01:11 <oklopol> the plural is flabberflemma btw.
21:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that... just an open aperture?
21:02:40 <oklopol> idgi
21:02:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh I thought he described a one-way valve that can electronically be overriden. It would need three pressure sensors and a micro controller chip I think...
21:03:33 <Vorpal> basically you need one to detect ambient pressure, and one on either side of the one-way valve
21:03:44 <oklopol> yes
21:03:56 <oklopol> so i would be a bit surprised if this gadget had a name
21:03:58 <Vorpal> might not need the one on the inside (except for the music part)
21:04:11 <oklopol> well apart from "flabberfleming mouthpiece" ofc
21:06:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah I doubt that word has any synonyms
21:07:49 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to graphene.
21:08:04 -!- graphene has changed nick to copumpkin.
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22:11:38 <augur_> tswett: whats proce
22:14:04 -!- edwardk has joined.
22:14:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there?
22:14:25 <Vorpal> where /is/ elliott?
22:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Left because he finds the level of discourse beneath his standards, as usual.
22:14:56 <Vorpal> oh right
22:15:10 <Vorpal> yeah he is still connected
22:15:58 <Vorpal> not in any channels from what I can see (so he doesn't share any with me and has +s set, or if +s is not set, is not in any channels that are not +s)
22:25:44 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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22:30:57 <tswett> augur_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Proce
22:35:32 <augur_> ah
22:35:34 <augur_> meh
22:35:48 * tswett starts rewriting ye spec.
22:36:00 <Vorpal> ihope? Haven't seen that guy for ages, did he switch nick or something
22:36:06 <tswett> I think so.
22:36:25 * oerjan swats Vorpal -----###
22:36:39 <shachaf> ?
22:36:43 <shachaf> Who's ihope?
22:36:46 * oerjan swats tswett too for good measure-----###
22:37:04 <tswett> Didn't he change his nick to "kerlo" or something?
22:37:05 <shachaf> oerjan: Ha!
22:37:10 <shachaf> "measure-----###"!
22:37:15 <shachaf> That's your new swatter.
22:37:20 <oerjan> oops
22:37:27 <tswett> So does this mean I've been swatted for good?
22:37:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, what?
22:37:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't remember were he went
22:37:57 <Vorpal> seriously
22:38:06 <Vorpal> I think he used to change nick a lot
22:38:14 <oerjan> you don't say XD
22:38:15 <Vorpal> but that is all I remember
22:38:25 <Vorpal> and I have no clue who he is currently
22:38:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, who is he currently
22:38:36 <tswett> I'm changing the page for Proce to say it was invented by Tanner Swett.
22:38:38 <oerjan> rofl
22:39:09 <augur_> i remember ihope
22:39:10 <Vorpal> tswett, so you are ihope?
22:39:28 <tswett> Let's just say ihope had a tendency to take credit for my work.
22:39:59 <Vorpal> well I have the complete clogs logs I should be able to do a query to the database I stored it in and track who he currently is
22:40:08 <Vorpal> oh wait, that is on a computer that is currently booted to windows
22:40:09 <Vorpal> forget it
22:40:20 <tswett> I don't think it really matters.
22:40:31 <oerjan> thwarted my microsoft
22:41:00 <tswett> Although, come to think of it, I hope he's doing all right...
22:41:05 <tswett> ...erm, no pun intended.
22:41:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, thwarted by computer games :P
22:42:16 <tswett> I guess we could email him. I think his email address is ihope127@gmail.com or something.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> (yes I'm kind of bored of nethack, wesnoth, neverwinter nights 1 and uh...
22:42:25 <Vorpal> yeah that's it)
22:43:12 <oerjan> `pastlog tswett.*ihope
22:43:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, might have gone through more nicks in between
22:43:50 <HackEgo> No output.
22:43:53 <oerjan> `pastlog tswett.*ihope
22:44:15 <HackEgo> 2011-05-16.txt:10:23:17: <elliott> tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope
22:44:25 <oerjan> warrigal, right
22:44:34 <tswett> That's a lot of pseudonyms.
22:44:48 <tswett> I mean, "tswett" isn't a pseudonym. It's just a nym.
22:45:05 <oerjan> i don't really remember that unaffiliated guy
22:45:09 <Vorpal> heh
22:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> *sigh*
22:45:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes his work is apparent everywhere
22:45:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, he even messed up my whois!
22:45:44 <oerjan> ah
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> reddit has a post voted to +3 advocating the genocide of the Palestinians.
22:46:00 <tswett> Does anyone know what school ihope is going to nowadays?
22:46:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, be happy it isn't more than +3
22:46:13 <Phantom_Hoover> reddit's normally anti-Israel!
22:46:17 <tswett> I thought I heard a rumor he was going to Stanford or something.
22:46:20 <oerjan> tswett: he probably dropped out long ago
22:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway surely that is against the TOS (advocating genocide)
22:46:33 <Vorpal> so you could report it
22:46:40 <tswett> I honestly wouldn't be surprised...
22:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I have this sinking feeling it's because they dressed it up as anti-Islamism which reddit is very fond of.
22:46:54 <oerjan> no spamming, no vote buying, and no advocating genocide.
22:47:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh
22:49:32 <oerjan> i've frequently been thinking what we need is for some mad scientist to grow a volcano right at the temple mount.
22:49:36 <oerjan> a big one.
22:49:47 <Gregor> I'm playing a sawtooth wave with oboe fingerings.
22:49:50 <Gregor> MY LIFE IS COMPLETE.
22:50:17 <oerjan> Gregor: you should start auditing for scifi movies
22:50:22 <oerjan> er
22:50:32 <oerjan> *auditioning
22:50:33 <Vorpal> so there is this youtube channel of a really amazing violinist that I'm subscribed to, but I can't figure out why the most watched video of her is dubstep violin with over 19 000 000 views, compared to the usual average of 5 000 000...
22:50:39 <Vorpal> that just doesn't make sense to me.
22:50:44 <tswett> Gregor: what does that mean?
22:50:50 <Vorpal> but then I don't understand popular culture very well
22:50:51 <Gregor> tswett: More or less exactly what it says.
22:50:58 <Vorpal> so can anyone enlighten me on this
22:51:02 -!- john_metcalf has left.
22:56:13 <tswett> "Unary operations (including multiplication) take precedence over binary operations."
22:56:23 <tswett> I have a feeling there's something stupid about that sentence.
22:56:27 <tswett> Gregor: what are you playing it on?
22:56:30 <Vorpal> tswett, ... unary multiplication?
22:56:31 <Vorpal> what
22:56:47 <tswett> The syntax for multiplication is number "*" <function>.
22:57:04 <tswett> Since "*" only takes one function as an argument, not two, it is clearly a unary operation.
22:57:19 <Vorpal> ... which language is this?
22:57:24 <tswett> Proce.
22:57:38 <Vorpal> tswett, you wrote that language, you should know what is going on
22:57:46 <tswett> I do, yes.
22:58:14 <Vorpal> tswett, so * returns a function that multiplies by something?
22:58:46 <tswett> "function" is really a silly word for what that syntax element represents. It should be "signal".
22:58:53 <Vorpal> riiight
22:59:06 <Vorpal> tswett, so how is number "*" <function> evaluated?
22:59:25 <tswett> Well, it multiplies the signal by a constant.
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23:22:48 <tswett> Woo. The spec for Proce is now something reasonable.
23:22:54 <tswett> I should implement it one of these days.
23:23:54 <Vorpal> huh I was looking at the sensors of my phone. Amongst the expected accelerometer, magnetic, gyro, proximity and so on there is a rather odd pressure sensor. Air pressure that is according to the documentation
23:24:19 <Vorpal> why
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23:26:00 <pikhq_> I think those are more commonly called "microphones".
23:26:22 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:26:49 <Vorpal> pikhq_, this isn't though from what I can tell. It is an LPS331AP which is sold as a pressure sensor, not microphone. From the specs it doesn't look useful as a mic
23:27:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, iirc mics give you the relative changes in pressure? This one gives you absolute values
23:27:45 <Vorpal> unless I completely misremember how mics work
23:27:51 <Vorpal> which is a possibility
23:29:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: That's a fairly good point.
23:29:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you can google the product in question. It makes no sense as a mic
23:29:34 <pikhq_> Well, I have no idea then.
23:29:40 <Vorpal> right
23:30:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, there are no temperature sensors or such. So they obviously didn't go for a mobile weather station approach
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23:30:08 <oerjan> clearly it is to detect if the phone is falling out of a plane, so that it can shut down safely.
23:30:17 <Vorpal> (man imagine that, if apple added that and gps, the weather data they could sell)
23:30:25 <Vorpal> (it could improve the weather forcasts quite a bit
23:30:35 <Vorpal> (with lots and lots of measurements from all over the place)
23:31:37 <Vorpal> that would actually be kind of cool. In combination with GPS, a pressure sensor and a temperature sensor provides some useful data for weather forcast, sure there is no wind sensor or rain sensor or such, but still extra data!
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23:46:35 <tswett> Vorpal: maybe they *are* trying to make it somewhat of a mobile weather station.
23:46:49 <tswett> I would expect it to be hard to put a useful thermometer on a mobile phone.
23:46:55 <tswett> Since the phone itself generates heat.
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23:52:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some handheld GPSen have barometers for altitude guessing. (Sure, you can get a 3D reading from the GPS, but that can be pretty inaccurate too, and needs more visible satellites than just location.)
23:53:01 <fizzie> "Says John Celenza, the lead meteorological developer at Weather Underground, "the barometer is probably used on the phone to aid in correcting altitude measurements by the GPS." In other words, the barometer is more likely than not intended to be a source of supplemental data for the GPS sensor, adding altitude measurements for increased accuracy. The atmospheric pressure is directly related ...
23:53:07 <fizzie> ... to elevation, so a barometer can very easily be used as an altimeter, measuring your altitude."
23:53:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
23:53:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is also related to weather though
23:53:47 -!- nortti- has joined.
23:53:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that quote from?
23:54:28 <fizzie> Random google page, http://m.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2011-10/so-um-why-does-new-google-phone-have-barometer-it
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23:56:16 <fizzie> IIRC, the N900 has a readable temperature sensor in the battery, but I doubt it generally has much to do with ambient temperature.
23:57:36 <fizzie> $ cat /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input
23:57:36 <fizzie> -40
23:57:40 <fizzie> Dunno if it's weird units or just not working.
23:57:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of batteries. Any idea why the NFC antenna is generally in the battery?
23:58:03 <fizzie> (It's not -40 degrees Celsius inside, here.)
23:58:14 <Vorpal> Is it just to prevent people from buying non-OEM batteries?
23:58:15 <fizzie> (Nor outside, for that matter.)
23:58:50 <fizzie> No clue, but could be.
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