←2012-07-15 2012-07-16 2012-07-17→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:19:26 <Vorpal> nortti_, ash
00:19:49 <Vorpal> available in busybox
00:19:55 <nortti_> which version?
00:20:08 <Vorpal> nortti_, the busybox one
00:20:13 <Vorpal> I don't know any other version
00:20:18 <nortti_> (I am not going to include bb in my distro)
00:20:24 <Vorpal> eh
00:20:55 <nortti_> I'm going to use toybox
00:21:21 <nortti_> (+sash for some bits currently)
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02:30:52 <MDuck> That's odd, I thought there was a language up somewhere that was more of a circuit diagram specification, and basically had a paragraph of description and an imbedded image of a diagram, but I can't find it on the wiki.
02:30:55 -!- MDuck has changed nick to MDude.
02:32:09 <MDude> Maybe it was on another site and/or only appeared in a very realistic dream.
02:34:19 <oerjan> i think there are at least a couple of those
02:34:58 <MDude> There are a few based on circuits, but I didn't see any wuite like what I thought I saw earlier.
02:35:22 <oerjan> circute is one
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02:36:26 <oerjan> Sir. Cut.
02:36:33 <MDude> Yeah, but that's another one that was represented in text. For some reason I remember a page somewhere that has a big old image file on it.
02:36:38 <oerjan> and funciton is a recent one, that is quite pretty
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02:40:26 * oerjan tries to find the recent edit he is thinking of
02:42:43 <oerjan> MDude: what about Ziim?
02:43:22 <oerjan> that has lots of embedded images
02:44:06 <MDude> Nah, it was specifically something that was fairly pixilated with a lot of brown wire things.
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02:44:56 <MDude> Anyway, I'm not entire sure I need to find it aside from being curious about a thing I'm pretty sure I saw.
02:46:03 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cvlemar maybe?
02:46:19 <MDude> I mostly just wanted to eventually use an L-System/string rewriting system to quickly make huge complicated circuits that maybe do something interesting.
02:47:18 <oerjan> are you sure the wires were "brown"?
02:47:43 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=6 isn't that large
02:47:48 <MDude> Copper-looking anyway. At least I think, with each pixel representing a cell.
02:47:50 <oerjan> (all images)
02:48:09 <oerjan> you aren't just thinking of langton's ants?
02:48:22 <MDude> If I wasn't asleep and dreaming the whole thing, I could ahve at least been very tired at the time.
02:48:30 <oerjan> which aren't really an esolang
02:48:38 <oerjan> or wireworld
02:48:41 <MDude> I dunno, I think I read that it was a tool for making esoteric hardware.
02:48:52 <tswett> Hm. I suspect that Attempto Controlled English can be used as a programming language.
02:48:58 <MDude> I guess I should look specifically for that term.
02:50:10 <tswett> I'm not sure if it can quite express everything we'd want to express, though.
02:51:08 <tswett> Here's a plain-English description of ordered pairs: "Every ordered pair has a first part and a second part. For all X and Y, there is an ordered pair whose first part is X and whose second part is Y. For all ordered pairs A and B, if A's first part is B's first part and A's second part is B's second part, then A is B."
02:51:41 <tswett> ACE definitely *has* quantifiers, but I don't know if they can get as sophisticated as "for all X and Y".
02:52:09 <MDude> You mean the possibly-existant hardware description language, or using L-systems?
02:52:37 <tswett> Apart from that, it seems like you can write mathematics in ACE.
02:52:42 <MDude> Oh wait, never,ind, you meant something else intirely.
02:52:47 <MDude> *entirely
02:52:51 <tswett> The best thing about Attempto Controlled English is that its name looks like a typo for "attempt to control English".
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02:56:41 <MDude> Do you think Attempto Controlled English as a language might work a bit like ORK?
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02:59:45 <MDuck> And then I disconected from the cable falling out, probably right after or even before the last thing I said.
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03:05:15 <oerjan> eek he's incremented beyond
03:05:49 <MDude> :O
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03:14:28 <kmc> itidus2012
03:14:30 <kmc> the mayans warned us
03:15:45 <oerjan> it 'id us (in)
03:18:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>>++>--<<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:19:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 40.2
03:19:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:19:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.0
03:20:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:20:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 38.0
03:20:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:20:24 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.0
03:21:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>--<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:10 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
03:21:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>-->++<<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:30 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 40.6
03:21:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>--<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
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03:25:31 <madbr> haha someone is giving the worst linux audio slander
03:25:33 <madbr> <virt> MickRip: that's because no actual musicians use linux, only college kids with laptops, and autistic neckbeards who are obsessed with sheet music typography
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03:29:39 <kmc> haha
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04:47:38 <zzo38> edwardk: Is (Codensity ((->) x)) like a (State x) monad?
04:47:52 <edwardk> yes
04:48:00 <edwardk> there is even a good reason ;)
04:49:07 <zzo38> And then I think to read the state would be (Codensity join)?
04:49:42 <edwardk> probably, i don't usually write it that way
04:49:51 <edwardk> the motivation for it is
04:49:52 <edwardk> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/kan-extensions/2.7/doc/html/Data-Functor-KanExtension.html#v:ranToComposedAdjoint
04:50:07 <edwardk> where h = g = (->) e
04:50:30 <edwardk> so it really is state ;)
04:50:42 <edwardk> its just another way to compose the adjunction that gives rise to state
04:50:43 <zzo38> I just figure out by myself it is like state monad; but, always in mathematics that is what happen many people can figure out the same or similar kind of things independently
04:51:08 <edwardk> sure. just giving a theoretical justification for why it has the properties of state
04:51:14 <zzo38> OK
04:52:38 <zzo38> I have also figured out the monad it is like a state monad but instead of having return value and state value, it has a return value or a state value, not both. If you have >>= then whatever on the right if the left is a return value to read the return value, while <|> is reading the state value from the left on the right.
04:52:48 <zzo38> In my program it is called (CodensityAsk (Store x))
04:53:21 <edwardk> i still have no idea what that is supposed to be ;)
04:53:26 <edwardk> i'm just on for a few minutes though
04:53:30 <zzo38> Does this have a meaning too or not or you don't know?
04:53:41 <edwardk> it means nothing to me
04:53:46 <zzo38> What do you have no idea what that is supposed to be?
04:53:56 <zzo38> It is what I described and it is achieved for free.
04:55:12 <zzo38> What parts did you not understand?
04:56:36 <edwardk> its not that i don't understand it its that it doesn't strike me as fundamental in any way shape or form
04:56:58 <edwardk> i can mash a bunch of crap together and make a data type, but without a motivation for it, i tend to be disinclined to do so ;)
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04:57:21 <zzo38> Well, it is not completely fundamental, but it is not as messy as it seem at first.
04:58:06 * spirity can't set up his mail server to forward emails to save his life.forwarding
04:58:11 <oerjan> itt: zzo38 out-abstracts edwardk so much that he flees
04:58:13 <spirity> -forwarding (????)
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04:58:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Is that how they work?
04:58:52 <oerjan> sorry, i cannot answer that, although if you keep asking i _might_ flee too.
04:58:54 <zzo38> I am not sure for that to be a reason.
04:59:07 <zzo38> oerjan: Why?
04:59:25 <oerjan> because i'm out-abstracted, of course...
04:59:59 * oerjan has less patience with category theory these days.
05:05:38 <kallisti> I'm running out of patience with email servers...
05:08:18 <itidus21> i'm running out of patients at the clinic
05:09:15 <coppro> I'm running out of pay shuns to perform
05:11:51 <itidus21> i'm sure that what i just said could have been a good joke, but it's not
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05:44:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/ZbIB
05:44:09 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.0
05:49:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/GZMV
05:49:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 58.0
05:50:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/XYWZ
05:50:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 59.5
05:51:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/JQYR
05:51:59 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
05:55:42 * quintopia hires coppro to perform a shun
05:55:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/AJKZ
05:55:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.1
05:56:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/JQYR
05:56:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
05:56:38 <coppro> quintopia: thanks, this will last me another week!
05:56:50 <Vorpal> <oerjan> because i'm out-abstracted, of course... <-- shouldn't you be sleeping this time of the day?
05:59:26 <itidus21> tolerance for abstraction correlates strongly with the time since you last had a good full sleep
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06:02:15 <coppro> itidus21: in which direction?
06:02:54 <itidus21> conversely, the longer it has been since you had a good sleep can result in increased heart rate, lowered blood pressure, impairment of short-term and working memory, psychomotor coordination, and concentration
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06:04:41 <itidus21> joke
06:07:02 <coppro> itidus21: and what does this have to do with abstraction?
06:07:07 <coppro> I demand you explain it with colimits
06:20:22 <itidus21> a = b = (->) c, (Abc d), (Xyz ((-> a))
06:21:07 <coppro> insufficient
06:21:39 <madbr> wonder if you could rig up a svn to do turing complete calculation
06:21:50 <itidus21> which is infact, h = g = (->) e, (State x), (Codensity ((->) x)) in disguise
06:22:05 <coppro> ah
06:22:12 <coppro> and where is the colimit
06:22:17 <itidus21> i don't know
06:22:18 <coppro> madbr: it's called a hook
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08:21:51 <soundnfury> nortti: zx-lisp isn't yet available anywhere, no. Also it will be dynamically typed
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09:11:43 <Taneb> Hello
09:17:06 <itidus21> http://9gag.com/gag/4754020
09:20:29 <shachaf> kmc: #haskell-* is lamenting your absence.
09:21:42 <Taneb> @djinn (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:21:43 <lambdabot> f a b c = a (b c) c
09:22:26 <shachaf> @@ @pl @djinn (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:22:26 <lambdabot> f = flip flip id . liftM2
09:22:44 <coppro> that looks awfully similar to the (r ->) comonad, really
09:22:58 <shachaf> (r ->) is a comonad?
09:23:04 <coppro> no wait
09:23:06 <shachaf> How does that work?
09:23:22 <mroman> @djinn (m a) -> (m a -> m b) -> m b
09:23:22 <lambdabot> f a b = b a
09:23:43 <coppro> shachaf: it's the dual of the (-> r) monad
09:23:53 <mroman> @@ @pl @djinn (m a) -> (m a -> m b) -> m b
09:23:53 <lambdabot> f = flip id
09:24:29 <coppro> shachaf: apparently you also need r to be a monoid
09:24:45 <shachaf> coppro: coreturn :: (r -> a) -> a?
09:25:04 <shachaf> Ah, if r is a monoid then you can give it mempty?
09:25:30 <coppro> yeah
09:25:52 <coppro> @src Comonad ((->)m)
09:25:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
09:25:57 <shachaf> What's the rest of the definition?
09:26:00 <coppro> bah, wasn't sure that would work
09:26:03 <coppro> duplicate f m = f . mappend m
09:26:04 <coppro> extract f = f mempty
09:26:24 <shachaf> Hm.
09:27:12 <coppro> duplicate is (r -> a) -> r -> r -> a
09:28:07 <coppro> sadly, Taneb's r is in the wrong place to work in the comonad
09:28:17 <Taneb> I was going for the monad
09:28:43 <Taneb> Monoid m => ((->) m) is a comonad
09:29:04 <Taneb> @src ((->) r) (>>=)
09:29:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. I am sorry.
09:29:12 <Taneb> @src (>>=) ((->) r)
09:29:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
09:29:15 <Taneb> :(
09:29:29 <coppro> Taneb: your r is /definitely/ in the wrong place for a monad
09:29:37 <Taneb> :t (=<<)
09:29:39 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
09:29:52 <Taneb> Replace m with r ->
09:30:02 <Taneb> You get (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:30:15 <coppro> yeah, but (r ->) isn't a monad
09:30:23 <Taneb> ...yes it is
09:30:43 <coppro> really?
09:30:47 <Taneb> Ye
09:30:48 <Taneb> s
09:31:03 <coppro> are you sure you aren't confusing it with (-> r)?
09:31:16 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10), return x + 1)} 7
09:31:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
09:31:22 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1)} 7
09:31:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
09:31:27 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1} 7
09:31:28 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `7'
09:31:35 <Taneb> :t do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1)}
09:31:37 <lambdabot> parse error on input `)'
09:31:40 <Taneb> :t do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1}
09:31:42 <lambdabot> forall t b. (Num b, Monad ((->) t), Num (t -> b)) => t -> b
09:31:44 * coppro applauds
09:31:45 <Taneb> :?
09:32:52 <Taneb> f >>= k = \ r -> k (f r) r
09:32:59 <Taneb> Control.Monad.Instances
09:33:53 <coppro> where?
09:34:08 <Taneb> In base?
09:34:16 <coppro> no, where in the library?
09:34:20 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/
09:34:26 <Taneb> Near the top
09:34:35 <coppro> that's (-> r)
09:34:43 <Taneb> That's ((->) r)
09:34:47 <Taneb> Which is (r ->)
09:35:00 <coppro> oh man i fail so hard tonight
09:35:04 * coppro goes off to sleep
09:35:08 <Taneb> :)
09:35:20 <Taneb> ^ cheery-up smile
09:35:23 * nortti just woke up
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09:47:38 <nortti> soundnfury: I meant lexical or dynamical scoping
09:48:06 <soundnfury> um, I don't think it has scoping at all
09:48:24 <soundnfury> as soon as something's SETted, it's globally in scope
09:49:31 <nortti> but I meant like in (def foo (bar)) ((lambda x (foo) baz) if x visible in bar?
09:50:36 <soundnfury> hang on, are we (here) talking about ZX-LISP, or the lisp-like markup language?
09:50:39 <shachaf> coppro: No, (r ->) is a monad.
09:50:47 <nortti> zx-lisp
09:50:51 <shachaf> Ah, you said that.
09:50:55 <soundnfury> right
09:52:46 <soundnfury> so something like (set foo (x x)) ((lambda x (foo) baz). That's a syntax error, you've got too many (
09:52:49 <soundnfury> what did you intend?
09:53:27 <soundnfury> ((lambda x foo) baz)?
09:53:56 <nortti> I mean like if function foo has function call to function bar does bar see foo's variables
09:54:08 <soundnfury> in which case, (set foo (x x)) ((lambda x foo) baz) would produce (baz baz)
09:54:27 <nortti> yes
09:54:42 <soundnfury> yeah basically when you SET something, it goes on the variable-list, which is a list of conses ("name", pointer-to-value)
09:55:01 <soundnfury> and then any name is only dereferenced when it's encountered
09:55:12 <nortti> okay
09:56:57 <soundnfury> so (lambda x foo) will temporarily bind x to the lambda in some way (I think by setting a flag on the cons to say "this is a lambda, not a variable") while it's being evaluated
09:57:53 <soundnfury> and so then when baz is passed in, it will bind x to *baz, and then it evaluates foo and finds "Ah, this is (x x)", then evaluates the xs and gets (baz baz)
09:58:46 <nortti> ok. so dynamicaly scoped
10:09:29 <AnotherTest> I've just seen a Java method of 381 lines.
10:09:34 <AnotherTest> I'm shocked.
10:09:43 <nortti> what did it do?
10:09:48 <soundnfury> <AnotherTest> I've just seen a Java method <- you could have stopped there, frankly
10:09:51 <soundnfury> it's bad enough already
10:10:11 <AnotherTest> It's a sequence of if ... else
10:10:19 <AnotherTest> 381 lines long
10:10:48 <nortti> what is it's purpose
10:10:54 <AnotherTest> and they wrapped that in an if-statement
10:11:05 <AnotherTest> handlers for a game client
10:11:26 <AnotherTest> https://github.com/PenguinClientLibrary/JPCL/blob/master/com/PenguinClientLibrary/JPCL/Cucumber.java
10:11:50 <AnotherTest> This is probably some of the worst code I've ever seen in my life
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10:12:19 <Taneb> AnotherTest, have you seen my attempt at haskell obfuscation?
10:12:28 <Taneb> It's the worst code I've ever seen in my life
10:12:32 <Taneb> Does its job, though
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10:12:48 <AnotherTest> Yes, but it's intended to be horrible
10:12:56 <AnotherTest> I think this is serious
10:12:57 <Taneb> Of course, it takes a couple of minutes if you put in 10, and crashes if you put in 11
10:14:07 <Taneb> @src (++0
10:14:07 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
10:14:10 <Taneb> @src (++)
10:14:10 <lambdabot> [] ++ ys = ys
10:14:10 <lambdabot> (x:xs) ++ ys = x : (xs ++ ys)
10:14:10 <lambdabot> -- OR
10:14:10 <lambdabot> xs ++ ys = foldr (:) ys xs
10:14:20 <Taneb> :(
10:14:24 <Taneb> :)
10:14:36 <Taneb> :?
10:14:42 <AnotherTest> oh god
10:14:46 <AnotherTest> I agree
10:15:01 <AnotherTest> but in this case I should say well done
10:15:04 <Taneb> :)
10:15:40 <Taneb> Are you looking at this version? http://hpaste.org/raw/71201
10:16:13 <Taneb> I could probably make it shorter with a few $'s
10:16:31 <AnotherTest> http://hpaste.org/71206
10:16:44 <Taneb> That was me trying to be arty
10:16:50 <Taneb> The code itself is exactly the same
10:16:59 <Taneb> But my artiness failed a bit :(
10:17:46 <AnotherTest> not to insult your art but, what does the shape represent?
10:17:56 <Taneb> An exclamation mark, on its side
10:18:05 <Taneb> Yeah, it sucks
10:18:07 <AnotherTest> oh yes, I can see that
10:18:19 <AnotherTest> I should now show some of my own work
10:18:27 <AnotherTest> it's C++ though, I hope you don't midn
10:18:29 <AnotherTest> *mind
10:18:37 <Taneb> I don't really know C++ at all
10:18:51 <Taneb> (which is really bad, considering it's the second programming language I tried to learn)
10:18:55 <Taneb> But I'll give it a look
10:19:24 <AnotherTest> and it's christmas like
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10:19:32 <AnotherTest> http://ideone.com/4KSaH
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10:19:48 <AnotherTest> (because it was Christmas at the time I wrote it)
10:20:12 <AnotherTest> It's not really that complicated
10:20:25 <AnotherTest> It's mainly the shape really
10:24:44 <Taneb> @ping
10:24:45 <lambdabot> pong
10:24:45 <Taneb> :(
10:26:39 <stanley> Someone care to explain the reasoning of Esoteric Languages to me?
10:27:05 <nortti> what do you mean by "reasoning of Esoteric Languages"?
10:27:39 <stanley> Why people do it?
10:27:48 <nortti> for fun
10:27:52 <nortti> mostly
10:28:03 <stanley> Is the aim just to confuse people or what?
10:28:06 <AnotherTest> or to prove a point
10:28:15 <stanley> It seems like having fun with confusing people
10:28:15 <AnotherTest> (cf. dennis ritchie)
10:29:08 <nortti> hmm. I just create languages I find interesting
10:29:57 <FireFly> not necessarily to confuse people
10:30:28 <itidus21> stanley: although i am guilty of ruining this channel, ex officio, i have nonetheless some constructive comments
10:30:29 <nortti> most of my languages were created when I was bored at math class
10:30:57 <stanley> itidus21: what do you mean?
10:31:06 <itidus21> check the channel topic :D
10:31:21 <stanley> ah
10:31:38 <shachaf> itidus21: What are your constructive comments?
10:31:47 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language under Purpose maybe
10:32:13 <itidus21> i think one goal of esolangs is to strip away meaningless details
10:33:09 <itidus21> for instance, the emphasis tends to be on the core languages rather than using any libraries or APIs
10:33:15 <stanley> oh I see
10:34:07 <itidus21> they can have built in functionality, but third party libraries are rare
10:34:31 <itidus21> it's not really about making anything which requires external libraries or APIs
10:34:36 <shachaf> The itidus21 guide to esoteric languages.
10:34:38 <shachaf> For sale now.
10:34:45 <AnotherTest> At amazon.com
10:34:53 <AnotherTest> Free shipping!
10:35:03 <itidus21> hmm
10:35:08 <itidus21> i can do better
10:35:19 <nortti> price is 0x25 dollars
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10:35:24 <shachaf> > 0x25
10:35:26 <lambdabot> 37
10:35:38 <shachaf> That's alotta dollars.
10:36:06 <AnotherTest> 100101
10:36:15 <itidus21> it has a lot to do with the things that don't get taught in schools that often
10:36:19 <shachaf> > 0b100101
10:36:20 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `b100101'
10:36:56 <itidus21> hummmm
10:37:00 <shachaf> > succ . (2*) . (2*) . succ . (2*) . (2*) . (2*) . succ . (2*) $ 0
10:37:03 <lambdabot> 37
10:37:11 <AnotherTest> aha
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10:47:12 <itidus21> stanley: some of the things that goes on is writing efficient programs in esolangs
10:47:27 <stanley> Oh yes, because you do not have all of the extra stuff
10:47:35 <itidus21> hmm..
10:47:46 <stanley> It doesn't look efficient to write in though
10:47:49 <itidus21> i am clueless... the way i see myself here is
10:47:49 <soundnfury> 0t1101. Shame, it doesn't have any As in
10:48:14 <itidus21> i am like if your grandma walked into CERN and started trying to make relevant conversations
10:48:33 <stanley> Oh, I am the same
10:48:37 <itidus21> ya..
10:49:02 <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
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10:49:16 <itidus21> so, ok brainfuck is apparently inspired by the goal of writing the smallest possible compiler
10:49:23 <stanley> soundnfury: Sounds tough to do, good luck. ;)
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10:49:37 <soundnfury> itidus21: wouldn't the smallest possible compiler be for subleq?
10:49:40 <soundnfury> the OISC?
10:49:52 <itidus21> hmm
10:50:00 <itidus21> i don't know
10:50:01 <soundnfury> since the source code consists of triples of numbers
10:50:09 <itidus21> :D
10:50:15 <soundnfury> you could mandate that the numbers are in unary
10:50:48 <itidus21> anyway, another thing about brainfuck is that it happens to be very similar to some simple programming language described in an old mathematical paper
10:50:51 <soundnfury> then your compiler is just reading lists of, say, * and counting them
10:50:56 <soundnfury> itidus21: P'
10:51:06 <soundnfury> (P-prime)
10:51:06 <nortti> P''
10:51:09 <soundnfury> oh
10:51:09 <soundnfury> sorry
10:51:14 <itidus21> it is unknown if this is a coincedence
10:51:27 <stanley> why don't we just ask the creator of brainfuck
10:51:57 <itidus21> from the esolang wiki "It is not known to what extent Mller was aware of or influenced by Bhm's language P'' published in 1964, of which brainfuck can be considered a minor variation. "
10:52:06 <itidus21> :D
10:55:17 <itidus21> some mathematician named david hilbert had this problem for mathematicians called the decision problem. 2 people named alan turing and alonzo church came up with solutions which are somehow very important to computing
10:56:03 <itidus21> many esolangs are based fairly directly on the work of alan turing and alonzo church
10:56:46 <itidus21> and other mathematicians too probably
10:58:50 <itidus21> usually the entire esolang, with all it's syntax and rules can be described on a single article page
10:59:17 <itidus21> unlike many mainstream and proprietry languages which tend to require a book
11:01:11 <itidus21> another common theme seems to be converting and compiling from one esolang to another
11:01:52 <itidus21> ^interpreting and compiling
11:02:28 <itidus21> also writing an interpreter of a language, in that language
11:03:06 <itidus21> eg. a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck
11:05:15 <itidus21> another aspect of esolangs is exploring different ways of representing sourcecode, such as images or music
11:05:49 <nortti> and then there are the joke languages
11:07:53 <itidus21> joke languages often push ideas to extreme absurdities
11:09:17 <itidus21> i have ranted too long
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11:44:48 <itidus21> wb guys
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11:53:09 <elliott> someone make http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust not suck, because http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies is so good that I want to feature the former as an excuse to promote the latter
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11:53:20 <elliott> whoops I had other things to say about it:
11:53:29 <elliott> it is quite honestly the best-written and probably most useful page on the wiki
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13:40:47 <quintopia> elliott so mean
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13:53:05 <mroman> !bfjoust [>->+>->+]
13:53:05 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:53:14 <mroman> !bfjoust [muh >->+>->+]
13:53:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman__muh: 0.0
13:53:29 <mroman> !bfjoust muh [>->+>->+]
13:53:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_muh: 0.0
13:53:38 <mroman> :)
13:53:58 <fizzie> Looks like it'd run out of the right end pretty fast.
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14:27:18 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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14:29:32 <mroman> makes sense.
14:30:31 <mroman> I probably shouldn't try it again.
14:32:10 <mroman> Although...
14:32:28 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<]
14:32:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:32:51 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][>][-]
14:32:54 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:15 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<]+
14:33:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:24 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][>-]
14:33:28 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:31 <mroman> hm.
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14:33:39 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][<-]
14:33:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:50 <mroman> Gregor: What happened?
14:35:18 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<]
14:35:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:35:31 <mroman> The tape apparently doesn't wrap around.
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17:00:56 <nooga> was there an esoland inspired by legal language?
17:02:32 * boily cringes in fear
17:03:48 <olsner> nooga: make one and call it EULA
17:04:53 <nooga> i'm sure there's one already
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17:08:55 <olsner> yes, probably
17:09:55 <MDude> Is there an esoteric programming theme park called Esoland?
17:10:03 <quintopia> unfortunately not
17:10:08 <quintopia> we're working on it
17:10:38 <olsner> the reason elliott is not around here so often is that he's overseeing the project to built that
17:11:25 <quintopia> the only thing we know about it so far is that it will have squarelos
17:11:38 <quintopia> (oriented to north/south/east/west)
17:18:06 <itidus21> hmm
17:19:03 <itidus21> sometimes i wonder what it would look like if i did a rendering where things got larger as they got closer
17:19:10 <itidus21> oops i mean smaller
17:19:47 <itidus21> ^took up more of the visual field
17:20:24 <itidus21> i guess i mean if the size of the perspective projection of an object decreased with proximity
17:21:16 <Sgeo_> "TotalBiscuit introduces you to a gentle-paced strategy game by the creators of waterboarding"
17:21:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY6TrLsN6qM
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18:34:19 <boily> itidus21: http://vimeo.com/12518619
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19:15:49 <MDude> I made a rough description of a language using the metaphor of a spider moving around inside a square, but I'm not sure if Spider's Square should be name of the lanugage or just the term for an instance of a program made in the language, which would then be called Spider Square.
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19:19:59 <boily> MDude: https://xkcd.com/8/ ?
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19:25:41 <MDude> That's a nice picture, but what I'm making is more two dimensional.
19:26:09 <MDude> Plus the spider uses thread, though it isn't designed for multithreading.
19:27:14 <MDude> I'll go with Spider Square.
19:27:31 <MDude> Wait hmm.
19:29:19 <MDude> Spider's jsut sounds better, and it's unlikely I'd get program instances regularly called something other than "the program".
19:29:24 <MDude> *just
19:30:02 <MDude> And I'll just change it later if I want.
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19:34:48 <MDude> Actually, I'm not sure if it should go on the wiki until I either implement or make some explicit syntax.
19:35:33 <nortti> list of ideas?
19:36:35 <MDude> Nah, it's pretty long for a thing to stick in a list, unless you mean I should put up a page for it and link it there.
19:39:12 <oerjan> `addquote <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
19:39:21 <HackEgo> 852) <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
19:39:37 <Gregor> X-D
19:39:42 <Gregor> soundnfury++
19:39:49 <nortti> worse than haskell?
19:40:50 <MDude> I'll just leave it unlisted for now.
19:40:52 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spider%27s_Square
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19:51:26 <zzo38> Do you know anything about aerobatic diagrams?
19:52:19 <oerjan> sounds like something to send your head spinning. and rest of body.
19:53:41 <MDude> Nothing, other than the fact that they're called that probably means they're related to aeobatic moves and thus the part of the program involving arcs.
19:53:48 <oerjan> wait i'm confusing with acrobatics. although the head spinning part still holds.
19:53:58 <MDude> So was I, I guess.
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19:54:31 <oerjan> ...wait wikipedia says they're the same thing...
19:54:35 <MDude> I guess it's be a diagram of how to do stretches, jump in place, etc.
19:55:02 <MDude> Actually I tihnk that's be aerobic, not areobatic.
19:55:20 <oerjan> oh no, it's just aerobatics are sometimes also called acrobatics
19:56:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver has some diagrams
19:57:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresti_Catalog seems to be an official guide
19:58:35 <oerjan> zzo38: ^
19:58:41 <zzo38> I try to write a program in Haskell (and using "dvi-processing" package) to draw the diagrams from an input file specifying catalog numbers and manual overrides and so on.
19:58:46 <zzo38> I understand a few things about it.
19:59:08 <zzo38> But I need to make the algorithm to figure out which line to make longer, how to lay out on a page,e tc
20:02:10 <zzo38> The catalog diagrams can be split into the parts and then draw these pieces in METAFONT, I could do so.
20:06:01 <oerjan> dmm's most awful pun yet? http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/?comic=1288
20:06:37 <MDude> Images not loading for me.
20:06:41 <oerjan> ...
20:07:00 <oerjan> MDude: that's intentional
20:07:53 <oerjan> postcard is a comic with only annotations
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20:07:59 <FireFly> oh, it *is* loading
20:08:13 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
20:08:14 <MDude> I see.
20:08:27 <FireFly> :(
20:08:44 <oerjan> also a cooperative work.
20:09:13 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php should make things clearer *mad cackle*
20:11:49 <oerjan> or http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/faq.php
20:11:54 * oerjan runs away
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20:20:51 <shachaf> hoerjan.php
20:21:33 <oerjan> hey i'm not php
20:22:06 <oerjan> unless it stands for Pretty Hilarious Person, of course.
20:23:05 <oerjan> ...i guess the .php's up there are a bit of a clue.
20:24:51 <oerjan> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Gusf8 needs a helpful boot out the door
20:26:07 <shachaf> hoerjan.mm
20:26:28 <shachaf> That's write, you're Objective-C++
20:26:30 <oerjan> i don't know about .mm
20:26:32 <shachaf> Ugh.
20:26:34 <shachaf> Right.
20:26:35 <shachaf> Ugh.
20:26:39 <shachaf> :-(
20:26:46 <shachaf> Thankslotoerjan.
20:26:59 <shachaf> My weakness has been revealed, and now I can't show my face in here again.
20:27:04 <oerjan> wat
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20:27:31 <kmc> Objective-Shootyourself
20:29:37 <zzo38> What is Objective-Shootyourself?
20:34:10 <oerjan> apple's new PL, which will be mandatory for their next product line
20:34:36 <zzo38> How does it work?
20:34:45 <oerjan> you program, then you die.
20:34:57 <kmc> then you give them money
20:35:17 <oerjan> then once all human programmers are dead, apple's ai programmers take over the world
20:38:51 <mroman> You program, you're soul belongs to them
20:38:56 <mroman> your
20:39:13 <mroman> no
20:39:17 <mroman> I'm going with you're
20:39:19 <mroman> like in
20:39:36 <mroman> all your soul are belong to them.
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20:52:19 <zzo38> Is it correct? Codensity Endo = [] CodensityAsk Endo = Writer (Sum Natural) Density Endo = Traced (Product Natural)
21:02:13 <zzo38> Yesterday I have played Dungeons&Dragons game.
21:06:07 <zzo38> Now I am being assassinated and have to somehow catch him.
21:07:17 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:09:01 <zzo38> "200 gold pieces." "I think that is too much." "I cannot reduce the price; illithids are dangerous. We can kill the fighter for 100 gold pieces." "What price for both of them?" "... 250 gold pieces." "OK"
21:09:45 <oerjan> the mystery of haggling
21:09:52 <zzo38> At least, I have a spell of Locate Object and a scroll of Locate Creature; these may help. Since, I need to catch the chancellor too.
21:11:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, even assassins are haggling.
21:11:14 <zzo38> I almost got killed, but I got saved by wizard guild just in time.
21:13:29 <zzo38> The scroll of Locate Creature cost me 20 of the king's gold coins and a copy of the Object Mirroring spell. Hopefully I somehow need to get back the money before the king arrives or else hope the king is OK with me spending his money in order to save the kingdom.
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21:15:55 <zzo38> But I have thought ahead of nearly everything including zwischenzug and Sicilian reasoning.
21:18:13 <mroman> Zwischenzug Reasoning?
21:18:36 <mroman> Cool.
21:18:40 <mroman> A german chess term :)
21:18:54 <kmc> schnellzug
21:19:02 <kmc> wuppertal schwebebahn
21:19:09 <zzo38> During the game session, the other player made up stuff which isn't true, such as the eggs he got from the store actually being bombs, hiring a suicide team, the royal chefs looking to see if the eggs hatched and since they didn't hatch falling to the floor laughing and tripping on their own swods and dying, the assassins using a poison that only works on humans therefore won't affect me, etc. None of which is true.
21:19:20 <mroman> Zugzwang
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21:19:37 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, I know zugzwang, too.
21:21:26 <zzo38> s/swods/swords/
21:22:41 <zzo38> kmc: What is "schnellzug" and "wuppertal schwebebahn"?
21:23:16 <kmc> lmgtfy
21:25:58 <mroman> Schnellzug is a fast train.
21:25:58 <oerjan> neanderthal fahrvergnugen
21:27:05 <mroman> Like the inuits german has 100 words for snow .
21:27:08 <mroman> and also for trains .
21:27:43 <kmc> Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft
21:27:50 <oerjan> Schneemann, lass das Träumen
21:28:01 <mroman> kmc: Exactly.
21:30:28 <oerjan> no no, it's not that they have 100 words for snow, it's that they have words for snow that are 100 letters long
21:31:14 <oerjan> this might apply to the inuits too, btw
21:31:43 <shachaf> kmc: You didn't even stick a single ß in there?
21:32:10 <shachaf> Oh, that's an actual word.
21:33:02 <olsner> oerjan: speaking of words for snow, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone
21:33:08 <nortti_> what does it mean?
21:33:37 <kmc> shachaf: fsvo actual
21:33:51 <kmc> oerjan: but because words are combinatorial in this way, they also have a lot of them
21:33:54 <kmc> far more than 100
21:34:03 <kmc> probably 2⁸⁰ words for trains
21:34:15 <kmc> i should invent a function which hashes any data to a german word about trains
21:34:28 <olsner> because as we all know, germans are CRAZY about TRAINS
21:34:33 <oerjan> darn exponential explosion.
21:34:42 <shachaf> oerjan: That sounds dangerous.
21:34:46 <zzo38> edwardk: Is it this? CodensityAsk Endo = Writer (Sum Natural) Density Endo = Traced (Product Natural)
21:34:53 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a real big bang
21:35:06 <zzo38> Do you know either of these?
21:35:10 <kmc> bang bang feuer frei
21:35:44 <nortti_> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
21:35:59 <oerjan> never do a tango with an eskimo
21:36:38 <olsner> nortti_: argh! why did you have to link to MOBILE wikipedia? :(
21:37:00 <nortti_> because I'm on my phone
21:38:41 <oerjan> i discovered the other day that the mobile version of a site linked on reddit crashed IE
21:39:09 <nortti_> why did you use IE?
21:39:18 * oerjan swats nortti_ -----###
21:39:31 <nortti_> why?
21:40:27 <oerjan> because i always do.
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21:40:54 <olsner> speaking of things that crash IE - luckily for you, I think my nested iframe tests are all broken now
21:41:23 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure IE is the real problem, though. i have strange delays just bringing up desktop programs sometimes.
21:42:16 <olsner> something capable of running IE would do that
21:42:30 <oerjan> but websites which gobble cpu even after loading do make things work.
21:42:32 <oerjan> *worse.
21:43:53 <oerjan> it _is_ a six year old laptop, it's to be expected it cannot always keep up.
21:44:14 <oerjan> (and it wasn't a top model when it was bought, either.)
21:44:25 <nortti_> only 6 years old?
21:44:47 <olsner> I'd suggest Opera, but I think they've dropped Windows 95 support now
21:45:32 <zzo38> By F-algebras I would suppose (CodensityAsk Endo) would be same like (Free Identity)
21:46:37 <nortti_> I'd suggest k-meleon for that laptop if it runs windows and not ie inside wine
21:47:08 <kmc> k-meleon f-algebras
21:47:15 <nortti_> (find the 1.7 alpha version. other are bit outdated)
21:48:06 <nortti_> (k-meleon 1.7 alpha is on the same level as camino 2.1)
21:49:18 <nortti_> *2.1.2
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21:59:29 <Vorpal> g
21:59:36 <Vorpal> err, why was that in the buffer
21:59:37 <Vorpal> whatever
22:00:01 <Vorpal> nortti_, what is k-melon?
22:00:30 <nortti_> k-meleon is a lightweight web browser
22:00:33 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i discovered the other day that the mobile version of a site linked on reddit crashed IE <-- lol
22:00:36 <Vorpal> ah
22:00:38 <oerjan> the g was trying to sneak out of your computer but got sidetracked
22:01:07 <nortti_> (yes, it is written k-meleon)
22:01:16 <Vorpal> ah yes
22:01:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, why do you using IE if it is so buggy
22:01:44 <Vorpal> just import all the bookmarks into firefox or chrome and don't look back
22:02:06 <oerjan> actually not crash, just pegged the cpu, so i had to kill it
22:02:14 <Vorpal> <olsner> I'd suggest Opera, but I think they've dropped Windows 95 support now <-- oerjan is using windows 95?!
22:02:34 * oerjan regrets bringing this up, again.
22:02:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, still counts as buggy
22:02:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, seriously are you using windows 95?
22:02:50 <oerjan> ...i think he may have meant xp.
22:02:54 <Vorpal> ah
22:03:08 <Vorpal> chrome or firefox should both work fine under xp
22:03:16 <Vorpal> though why anyone would still use xp is beyond me
22:03:20 <oerjan> maybe he was just joking.
22:03:26 <Vorpal> apart from the better font rendering of course
22:03:30 <Vorpal> fuck cleartype
22:03:58 <nortti_> fuck ie shell. I'm staying at win95/nt4
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22:05:04 <olsner> Vorpal: I have no idea what version of windows he is using, I'm just joking that because he uses IE it must be something ancient
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22:16:42 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously the joke would've been much funnier if you got it without an explanation
22:18:17 <ion> k http://youtu.be/FrtyQ1uSRB4
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23:04:43 <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next
23:04:52 <coppro> quick, get him here
23:06:23 <ion> heh http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/php-explained
23:06:55 <coppro> nah, that's not the canonical PHP experience
23:07:08 <coppro> the canonical PHP experience would call the second function mapArray
23:10:03 <olsner> yes, and mapArray is the one that actually filters the array, and instead of taking the array as an argument it takes the name of the variable it's in
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23:10:59 <coppro> olsner: we should be php developers
23:13:00 * coppro loves websites that accept example.org email addresses
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