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00:52:25 <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it?
00:53:12 <shachaf> Vorpal: Is there a difference between you and Veinor?
01:23:38 <Vorpal> shachaf, who is "Veinor"?
01:24:22 <shachaf> 17:54 <Veinor> > "Veinor" == "Vorpal"
01:24:38 <Vorpal> shachaf, in this channel? Is the timestamp in UTC?
01:24:48 <Vorpal> anyway I'm not that guy, whoever it is
01:24:55 <Vorpal> shachaf, WHICH OTHER CHANNEL?
01:25:37 * Vorpal waits for Mirror's Edge to finish downloading
01:25:51 <Vorpal> steam says over an hour left :/
01:26:29 <shachaf> Vorpal: Don't worry, you'd hate it anyway.
01:27:09 <Vorpal> shachaf, mirror's edge? Nope, I played a bit before, a friend owns it. Pretty cool game.
01:27:45 <shachaf> Mirror's Edge seemed kind of pointless to me.
01:28:00 <Vorpal> The parkour seems pretty cool
01:28:07 <shachaf> It's been a few years since I looked at it, though.
01:28:28 <Vorpal> from what I understand it has become something of a cult game
01:31:22 <MDude> I still haven't finished that.
01:32:57 <Vorpal> also hopefully the parkour might be slightly more interesting than that of assasin's creed
01:33:00 <MDude> I like it, though it's very much a frustrating puzzle platform game.
01:33:25 <Vorpal> which is just "hold space, w and right mouse button, sometimes hit a few other keys"
01:33:42 <Vorpal> (that is revelations, I haven't played the earlier games)
01:34:17 <Vorpal> there was an image illustrating that I saw somewhere
01:34:25 <Vorpal> ah: https://virtualshacklesimages.appspot.com/images/assassins_edge.jpg
01:35:03 <Vorpal> I just hope mirror's edge plays well with keyboard and mouse
01:35:21 <Vorpal> though I am planning to buy a pad sometime soon
01:35:25 <MDude> Try something like that but also hitting the other keys more often and also a lot of really annoying spots where you jump-die-respawn a lot.
01:35:54 <Vorpal> well, it was super-cheap on the steam summer sale, so meh
01:35:55 <MDude> Or worse, jump-fall-spend-several-minutes-climbing.
01:36:08 <Vorpal> okay that doesn't sound so fun
01:36:18 <Vorpal> MDude, checkpoints rather than quicksaves I guess?
01:36:32 <Vorpal> I have to say I prefer quicksave systems
01:36:46 <MDude> There's quicksave, but let's say you're climbing a tower.
01:36:57 <MDude> Sometimes when you fall, you die and go back a few seconds.
01:37:19 <MDude> Other times, you survive, and get to enjoy climbing all the way back up form the bottom.
01:37:27 <Vorpal> couldn't you just quickload then
01:37:49 <MDude> I haven't found a way in the PS3 version other than dying.
01:37:59 <Vorpal> oh, well I'm playing on PC of course
01:38:05 <Vorpal> btw, did you know there is a sequel to IWBTG now?
01:38:07 <MDude> And climbing up to where you can die again activates the earlier quicksavepoint.
01:38:22 <MDude> Saw the link earlier.
01:39:15 <MDude> I'll have to try it out.
01:40:10 <Vorpal> I wouldn't, I watched a video of someone playing it, he died on the level select screen a few times first.
01:40:42 <Vorpal> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY6TrLsN6qM&feature=plcp
01:40:44 <MDude> That's what was linked.
01:40:53 <Vorpal> MDude, what? The TB video?
01:43:43 <MDude> It's partly because I used to hang out on a forum with the guy who made it a bit, so I figure I should try out stuff he makes.
01:45:41 <Vorpal> MDude, you should watch that video though if you haven't already
01:46:27 <MDude> I figure I ought to at least see how far I can in a few plays get before spoiling the various death-traps.
01:48:37 <Vorpal> why does windows lower the system sound setting when I plug in my phone over USB
01:48:46 <Vorpal> oh well, it is windows...
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02:11:38 <kmc> "Police arrested two Cambridge Department of Public Works employees outside the Target in Somerville on charges of selling marijuana out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours."
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03:20:29 <shachaf> kmc: http://cr.yp.to/snuffle/design.pdf seems to be an example of using a hash function in CTR mode.
03:21:29 <oerjan> DON'T VISIT THAT WEBSITE!
03:22:18 <oerjan> shachaf: it's crypto that wants to kill you!
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03:44:37 <Vorpal> <kmc> "Police arrested two Cambridge Department of Public Works employees outside the Target in Somerville on charges of selling marijuana out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours." <-- wtf
03:44:48 <Vorpal> is that a different charge than selling marijuana in general?
03:45:23 <Vorpal> like, "selling marijuana out of a of a city-owned vehicle during working hours" carries a higher penalty than just selling marijuana in general?
03:45:24 <shachaf> No, you misread the sentence. They arrested them out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours.
03:45:40 <shachaf> Which is presumably how police usually arrest people?
03:48:29 <Vorpal> why does uploading stuff kill my /download/ so badly
03:49:39 <kmc> well i doubt the crime of "selling marijuana out of a of a city-owned vehicle during working hours" is mentioned on the books
03:49:52 <Vorpal> kmc, my thought exactly
03:50:04 <kmc> i don't think the wording in the article implies that there is
03:50:06 <itidus21> http://imgur.com/gallery/JGn2l
03:50:12 <Vorpal> hm knights of the old republic is on sale, super cheap, is it worth buying?
03:50:16 <Vorpal> that is the original in the series iirc
03:50:17 <kmc> but yes i expect they would get some additional misuse of public property or something
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03:50:40 <shachaf> kmc: Well, it wasn't mentioned on the books until now!
03:50:49 <shachaf> I suppose you might not be talking about the same books.
03:51:00 <shachaf> Vorpal: "everyone" seems to say that it's good.
03:51:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, you played it though?
03:51:26 <kmc> itidus21: ahahahaha
03:52:50 <kmc> in college we used to drive out to the desert for roman candle naval battles
03:53:07 <kmc> you have two cars
03:53:27 <kmc> everyone who's not driving tries to hit the other car with roman candles out the windows
03:53:48 <Vorpal> also fuck steam for lagging out
03:54:46 -!- trout has changed nick to constant.
04:01:07 -!- quintopia has set topic: celebrates the 27th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:01:22 -!- quintopia has set topic: #esoteric celebrates the 27th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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04:04:08 <kmc> shachaf ex machina
04:04:35 <shachaf> Is kmc guilty of ruining this channel?
04:06:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm according to the topic I should say happy bday
04:06:18 <Vorpal> unless that is outdated
04:07:16 <Gregor> I post a screed on Facebook about not giving me birthday wishes so SOMEBODY puts it here and also gets my birthday wrong X-D
04:07:38 <Gregor> quintopia: If you enter your twenty-seventh year of life, how old are you?
04:08:15 <Vorpal> is it some facebook thing?
04:08:57 -!- quintopia has set topic: #esoteric celebrates the 26th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:08:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: A screed is a very negative rant.
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04:09:33 <kappabot> *** "screed" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:09:33 <kappabot> n 1: a long monotonous harangue
04:09:33 <kappabot> 3: an accurately levelled strip of material placed on a wall or
04:09:35 <kappabot> floor as guide for the even application of plaster or
04:09:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you don't want bday wishes then I guess?
04:10:00 <Gregor> Really I just don't want FACEBOOK birthday wishes X-D
04:12:11 <Gregor> I love how that definition uses “harangue”, an equally uncommon word, to define “screed”.
04:12:25 <Vorpal> why does google have to make things so convenient. You just end up giving them all your data -_-
04:13:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, I knew what harangue was. There is a similar Swedish word that isn't as uncommon though
04:13:50 <Vorpal> anyway wrt google: in this specific case I'm lamenting the way that contacts and calendar integrates on my phone (android, so yeah) and on the PC. It is really slick, but you do end up giving your data to google by doing that :/
04:14:18 <Vorpal> besides the contact stuff integrates with gmail, which is really nice
04:14:31 <oerjan> Gregor only has half a deck of cards, if you get my drift
04:14:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't. What does the idiom mean?
04:15:10 <oerjan> ...i guess i shouldn't have expected Vorpal to get it.
04:15:20 * Vorpal googles "has half a deck of cards"
04:15:33 <itidus21> it's the best way i have heard that idiom expressed
04:15:53 <Vorpal> itidus21, what does it mean though?
04:16:15 <Vorpal> "oh not playing with a full deck"? Right
04:16:17 <itidus21> Vorpal: the actual meaning is about the ratio of how many cards he has, to how many cards he should have
04:16:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, so being crazy in other words
04:17:06 <Gregor> 26 is half of 52, Vorpal.
04:17:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes I did understand that
04:17:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, I just had no clue what the idiom ws
04:17:46 <Vorpal> which was obviously needed to get why it was funny
04:17:58 <Gregor> I shall spend my birthday making a pony game.
04:18:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, what sort of pony game?
04:18:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/websplat/ , but with (more and better) ponies.
04:18:32 <Vorpal> are we talking about a riding simulator here?
04:18:39 <Gregor> Hahah, not even a little bit.
04:18:47 <Gregor> I'm talking about My Little Pony X-D
04:18:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch, the pain
04:19:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh? A child could surely
04:19:15 <Gregor> itidus21: You can if you're small enough, presumably *shrugs*
04:19:38 <pikhq> Or anorexic enough.
04:20:11 <itidus21> i havent actually watched MLP though so i don't know
04:20:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, why does ctrl-w on the page after playing the game not work
04:20:52 <Vorpal> it just causes the guy to jump
04:21:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: It takes the 'W' key. It's on my bugs list, should be easy to fix.
04:21:37 <itidus21> ok i actually watched a retro MLP episode with a commentary
04:22:16 <pikhq> I saw an episode of it for the first time today.
04:22:59 <Gregor> itidus21: … why would you do that.
04:23:18 <pikhq> Glutton for punishment, presumably.
04:23:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Season 1, episodes 1 and 2.
04:23:50 <pikhq> I figured I'd give it an honest shot, starting from the beginning.
04:24:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic", a show for girls that has gained a peripheral audience.
04:24:21 <Gregor> pikhq: *sage nod*. You should know (and have probably already been informed) that the first two episodes are thematically (though not stylistically) different from the remainder of the show.
04:24:29 <pikhq> Gregor: So I have been told.
04:24:44 <Gregor> Well, except for the first two episodes of the second season. And arguably the last episode of that season too.
04:25:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, right, I know that much, just didn't connect the abbreviation
04:25:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, you know what you need to do on your websplat. Not make the hero a pony, make the enemies ponies
04:25:36 <Vorpal> that is much more entertaining
04:25:37 <itidus21> why would i watch retro my little pony? well it's better than disney :D
04:25:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Now watching ep. 3.
04:25:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: I tolerate and love your dissenting opinion.
04:26:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, why do you prefer the "hero" to be a pony?
04:26:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, you are a bronnie? Please no
04:26:56 <itidus21> gregor actually has a pic of himself as a pony
04:27:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, link or it didn't happen
04:27:27 <Gregor> I also have this: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3414963326934&l=2b8be05fc8
04:27:57 <Vorpal> how is the swag on the front of your face staying on, or is it photoshopped?
04:28:29 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a sticker.
04:29:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway why are you complaining about the swag to purchase ratio? It is in the favour of the customer...
04:29:57 <Gregor> And/or an excuse to take a photo of myself covered in ponies.
04:30:31 <Gregor> Y'know what the best part of bronidom is?
04:31:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, I don't really hate it. I just think it is a bit weird to go shouting out that you love a specific TV series like that. You don't see that behaviour for other TV series really... Not even Star Trek.
04:31:27 <Vorpal> (at least not outside conventions)
04:31:34 <itidus21> http://codu.org/dealwithit.png
04:31:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: You haven't seen fandom much, have you?
04:31:54 <Gregor> itidus21: Thank you, you've given the appropriate response perfectly!
04:32:07 <itidus21> ive got a feeling theres other pics.. that doesn't look like the one i had in mind
04:32:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, a bit. But from what I have seen bronies are unusually vocal about it.
04:32:23 <Gregor> itidus21: However that's not me as a pony, that's Pinkie Pie, and it's just a scene from an episode I grabbed.
04:32:26 <pikhq> If anything they are astoundingly ordinary in their vocalness.
04:32:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, you don't see people behaving this way over CSI for example. Not that I seen anyway.
04:32:35 <Gregor> Because she was wearing a hat and being unbelievably awesome.
04:32:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, when did you start being a brony?
04:33:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's because CSI doesn't have much of a fandom.
04:33:08 <itidus21> yeah, the one of you as a pony has a beret as i recall
04:33:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also, I don't think you appreciate the level of obsession some people go to with Trek fandom *in particular*.
04:34:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, at conventions I would definitely agree. But outside that?
04:34:01 <pikhq> Klingon-style weddings are a *thing*.
04:34:16 <Vorpal> what /is/ a "Klingon-style wedding"?
04:34:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: Donno, months ago.
04:34:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: They depicted a Klingon wedding in an episode.
04:34:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, how did it differ from a normal wedding
04:34:48 <pikhq> Slash fan-fic was invented. In the *70s*. Kirk-Spock manlove. Before the Internet.
04:34:52 <pikhq> Need I say more...
04:35:03 <Vorpal> eh, there is always slash fan-fic.
04:35:19 <pikhq> There has not always been slash fan-fic.
04:35:27 <pikhq> It was invented in Trek fandom.
04:35:35 <Vorpal> really, that is kind of scary
04:35:44 <kallisti> I would just like to state for the record, that I prefer Picard to Kirk.
04:35:54 <pikhq> Distributed in pain-stakingly gathered pamphlets.
04:35:55 <Vorpal> anyway I generally oppose fandom. Consider that fan is short for fanatic.
04:35:58 <pikhq> Because there was no Internet.
04:36:09 <itidus21> your statement has been recorded
04:36:46 <itidus21> Vorpal: apparently theres 2 schools of thought on the matter.
04:36:55 <Vorpal> <kallisti> I would just like to state for the record, that I prefer Picard to Kirk. <-- well of course, one is played by a far better actor...
04:37:09 <itidus21> one is that it comes from fanatic, another is that ..
04:37:56 <pikhq> kallisti: Well, *duh*. Picard is better in practically every way.
04:38:15 <pikhq> Worse in the sleeping with alien chicks bit, but I don't consider this an important metric.
04:38:33 <Vorpal> which one is correct though
04:38:36 <itidus21> i was actually at wikipedia just the other day looking up the etymology
04:38:55 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Worse in the sleeping with alien chicks bit, but I don't consider this an important metric. <-- I don't remember Picard ever doing that?
04:39:00 <Vorpal> so surely that is better
04:39:20 <Vorpal> I haven't watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of TOS
04:39:28 <Vorpal> so I can't possibly comment on the level of that there
04:39:30 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fan_(person)#Origin_of_the_word
04:39:31 <oerjan> third option: shakespeare just made the word up. (goes for much of english in general.) * runs away
04:39:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's Kirk's thing, really.
04:39:56 <pikhq> Up there with getting in fist fights.
04:39:57 <Vorpal> btw I haven't watched any DS9
04:40:05 <pikhq> Shame. DS9's pretty good.
04:40:18 <pikhq> Little different from TNG in feel, but nevertheless good.
04:40:36 <Vorpal> watched maybe 2 seasons of TNG in total, but spread out
04:41:01 <Vorpal> half a season in total of Voy, again spread out. Similar for that last one, whatever they call it.
04:41:20 <pikhq> I suggest watching more of TNG. When it's good it's astounding, and it's often good.
04:41:30 <pikhq> Don't bother with VOY and ENT.
04:41:38 <Vorpal> ah, ENT is what they call it
04:41:44 <Vorpal> and yeah TNG is decent I guess
04:42:15 <pikhq> How much of seasons 1 and/or 2 did you see?
04:42:28 <itidus21> anyway, the generation aged in their 30s always labours under the belief that they are outsmarting the generation aged 5-15 with their marketing practices, blissfully unaware that they were once 5 - 15
04:42:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't really remember, so many years ago. But pretty evenly spread out over several seasons I believe
04:42:52 <Vorpal> it did get better after the first season yes
04:42:59 <pikhq> I suppose, much easier: did Riker have a beard?
04:43:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, in some of the episodes, not all
04:43:44 <pikhq> If Riker is unbearded, you know it's going to be a stinky pile of shit.
04:43:48 <kallisti> pikhq: I've been told this is a point of contention among trekkies
04:43:48 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm not really a star trek nerd. What interests me with science fiction is not the stuff that star trek provides
04:44:00 <pikhq> Also if it's a Wesley episode.
04:44:13 <Vorpal> oh yeah, wesley was horrible
04:44:19 <pikhq> kallisti: Nah, it's universally accepted: Riker must have beard, and Wesley can go off and die in a fire.
04:44:29 <kallisti> pikhq: I meant Kirk vs. Picard
04:44:37 <pikhq> kallisti: Ah. For some reason, yeah.
04:44:46 <pikhq> kallisti: It is contested, but yeah.
04:45:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: I should also note that when Trek is bad it's terrible.
04:45:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what interests me in science fiction is the stuff that is generally considered hard science fiction. Star Trek does not provide that in any way at all.
04:46:04 <kallisti> pikhq: from what I can tell it boils down to: one is the original, the other is actually performed well.
04:46:18 <pikhq> True. Trek is fun, but hard sci fi it is not.
04:46:19 <oerjan> i think i saw a star trek episode once, i think it was called "threshold"
04:46:22 <pikhq> Usually it's space fantasy.
04:46:25 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm sorry.
04:46:36 <Vorpal> <pikhq> True. Trek is fun, but hard sci fi it is not. <-- oh come on. I guess it is more niche though
04:46:52 <Vorpal> anyway if I want fantasy I think there are more interesting settings than space ships
04:47:04 <Vorpal> oh and, hard scifi doesn't have to involve space at all
04:47:14 <oerjan> pikhq: just joking, i've seen others too.
04:47:26 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm not joking. I'm sorry you had to see that.
04:48:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, and? I find exploring the limits of our scientific understanding far more interesting than any action packed sequence
04:48:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, to be frank I prefer reading books to watching movies
04:48:15 <itidus21> whoever thought of attaching guns to spaceships was a genius :P
04:48:44 <Vorpal> books have way better framerate for a start
04:48:50 <Vorpal> (I hate, HATE, 24 FPS)
04:49:14 <pikhq> Where's my god-damned 120 FPS recording? :P
04:49:20 <itidus21> the sad truth being that for a large enough terrestrial plane that star trek could take place on the ground
04:49:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, though I would be okay with 60 FPS most of the time.
04:50:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh, I don't like it when playing games, so why should I like it when watching a movie
04:50:09 <pikhq> itidus21: It'd actually fit rather well translated to a naval setting.
04:50:16 <pikhq> itidus21: With magic.
04:50:39 <oerjan> <itidus21> whoever thought of attaching guns to spaceships was a genius :P <-- if that's genius i take it you consider most software patents genius too.
04:50:40 <pikhq> Trek tech is magic for all intents and purposes anyways.
04:51:42 <Vorpal> that is just so clearly magic that it isn't even funny
04:51:53 <pikhq> Funny, Q is generally liked.
04:52:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, what can I say, I don't like magic pretending to be tech
04:52:16 <pikhq> But mostly because of Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things.
04:52:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: have you even _heard_ of clarke's laws? :P
04:52:29 <Vorpal> "Encounter at Farpoint" sounds familiar
04:52:33 <pikhq> Q is explicitly magic, FWIW.
04:52:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes, but that is the other way around
04:52:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: First and last episodes.
04:52:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't like it either really
04:53:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't think I watched "All Good Things"
04:53:19 <pikhq> Anyways, if you go into Trek expecting hard sci fi you're going to have a bad time. If you go into Trek expecting Fantasy In SPAAAACE you'll probably enjoy yourself.
04:53:33 <Vorpal> but yeah I found the first TNG episode to be terrible, though the saucer separation idea was pretty cool (I think that happened there?)
04:53:53 <pikhq> It was terrible, except for the Q scenes, IMO.
04:53:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, problem is I don't enjoy fantasy in space :/
04:55:50 <Vorpal> in fact I don't enjoy fantasy for the fantasy part of it. I can enjoy it if it is good enough in other aspects. Like a really good story of political intrigue that just happens to be set against a fantasy background.
04:56:18 <Vorpal> magic doesn't really explain it self (obviously) in general
04:56:25 <pikhq> You'd love DS9, I think.
04:57:07 <pikhq> Very different feel from the other Treks...
04:58:03 <Vorpal> I know it takes place on a stationary station rather than a moving ship
04:58:39 <coppro> pikhq: Q was fantastic
04:59:08 <coppro> especially, as you said, Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things
04:59:35 <coppro> Voyager had the Doctor but also Neelix, so it was a wash
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05:07:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was largely based on longer story arcs around warfare and politics, rather than a planet-of-the-week thing.
05:10:14 <pikhq> It's also the polar opposite of what Roddenberry meant for the series, and honestly that's not a bad thing.
05:12:30 <pikhq> One of the main things driving his vision was that: in the future, humans are Perfect Beings.
05:12:48 <pikhq> As you can imagine, this limits writing somewhat.
05:19:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, Kirk doesn't behave as a perfect being
05:19:34 <Vorpal> so he failed already in TOS
05:19:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was much more a thing in TNG.
05:20:08 <pikhq> It *really* shows in the first few seasons.
05:20:51 <pikhq> Still, there were many elements of it in TOS.
05:21:03 <Vorpal> haven't watched enough TOS to comment on that
05:26:33 <Vorpal> google.com timing out for me, wtf. Other sites work fine
05:27:08 <Vorpal> oh okay, now it works again
05:36:44 <Vorpal> okay Mirror's Edge is awesome, though quite hard
05:37:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, bought it for next to nothing on the current steam sale
05:37:50 <pikhq> Played my then-roommates' copy, who got it at release.
05:38:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh you can get it for 2.49 EUR for about an hour until they switch over the sale
05:38:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, might be a different price in US
05:38:37 <Vorpal> it is the "community choice" thingy
05:38:39 <pikhq> Same OOM no doubt.
05:38:46 <pikhq> The Steam sales are like that.
05:38:46 <Vorpal> which switch over 8 hours
05:38:54 <pikhq> Order Of Magnitude.
05:39:08 <Vorpal> I heard of cases where there was like a 50% difference
05:39:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just wish there was a quicksave, at least I haven't found any such feature yet
05:52:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, so what price does Steam report for Mirror's Edge in US?
05:53:18 <Vorpal> if it was correct conversion ratio, $3.059
05:53:55 <Vorpal> that is quite a difference there
05:54:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, you said same order of magnitude before :P
05:55:07 <Vorpal> well I guess that is accurate in USD
06:02:30 <oerjan> you know orders of magnitude go in steps of *10, right?
06:02:55 <copumpkin> my orders of magnitude are in steps of 2
06:05:59 * oerjan tries that "last link in introduction" wikigame we did a while ago starting at "Order of magnitude", is currently at SISAL
06:06:43 <fizzie> Oh ho, I've completely missed that they're having a saleoroid thing.
06:07:52 <oerjan> some steps later, i'm at Free Software Foundation
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06:12:58 * oerjan gets into a loop with Hungarian language
06:16:54 <fizzie> Fate worse than death.
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06:23:20 <itidus21> the ultimate gambler's fallacy is that you can influence your own lifespan
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06:28:43 <itidus21> so my brother said, when i move out i'm taking the wii.. so my thoughts are... ok shit.. this means i will lose any save data
06:29:21 <itidus21> but if i buy another wii.. he will be like, i haven't moved yet are you trying to tell me something
06:29:50 <itidus21> but whats really weird is that before he said this i wasn't using the wii anyway
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06:35:17 <Vorpal> <oerjan> you know orders of magnitude go in steps of *10, right? <-- yes, and it shouldn't. Besides there could be a currency where it was not true in this case
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06:37:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant a currency where the one price was like 9 and the other price like 11
06:37:30 <Vorpal> itidus21, why would anyone want a wii, or care about a wii? Zelda games aren't that amazing...
06:37:56 <Vorpal> and the older ones can be emulated easily
06:38:24 <fizzie> Uh, that's still in the same order of magnitude by any sensible definition, even if the base used is 10.
06:38:44 <fizzie> Though admittedly they should go in steps of *e, that would be much more natural.
06:39:32 <Vorpal> okay so bitcoin it is then
06:40:01 <pikhq> Nah, base 2 is the most natural base.
06:40:19 <fizzie> It's called the *natural log*, nothing can be more natural than that.
06:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, except a supernatural log
06:59:40 <coppro> we should just write everything in base e
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07:19:51 <fizzie> This morning (few minutes ago) I saw a real scientist on the way to work. It was standing in the parking lot, talking to a cellphone, but I know it was a real scientist because it had a lab coat on.
07:37:25 <itidus21> Vorpal: well i think nintendo games are pretty good... and if i got some AA batteries i can play my brother's wii now..
07:37:39 <itidus21> but the thought of playing those games only to lose my save games seems onerous
07:37:46 <itidus21> but that's me being a perfectionist :D
07:38:04 <itidus21> basically.... .... im an asshole
07:41:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, get your own console then?
07:41:48 <fizzie> There's this game with a new game+ style feature and multiple endings; to see the "final" ending, you'll have to agree to have your save file permanently wiped out. It sounds like kind of a "dick move" to do.
07:42:00 <itidus21> i will.. because the stupid government gave me money
07:42:17 <itidus21> Vorpal: the fact that i don't actually need any advice is what makes me an asshole
07:42:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know any such games off the top of my head
07:42:49 <itidus21> Vorpal: but... well ... we have you know.. legal wii roms if there is such a thing
07:42:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, I would suggest buying a good gaming PC instead. More expensive sure, but also way better performance
07:43:08 <itidus21> and if there isn't my sentence doesn't make sense
07:43:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, Wii doesn't have ROMs, it has disc images
07:43:18 <Vorpal> so no it doesn't make any bloody sense
07:43:36 <itidus21> ok anyway, some of them are might fine
07:44:11 <itidus21> the very thought of them.. is the same feeling the royals must get thinking of their store of gems and golden crowns
07:44:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: NIER is like that.
07:44:21 <Vorpal> Nintendo's last non-handheld system to have ROM images was N64. Both Gamecube and the Wii have CD drives instead
07:44:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it stand for I mean
07:44:53 <fizzie> http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/960449-nier/cheats "Beware that getting ending D will delete all of your save data except the game's system data (the settings save file, not the actual install data) and when creating a new game if you try to name the protagonist the same name you did in your previous game you will be told "Unfortunately, that name cannot be used.""
07:45:00 <fizzie> It even permanently eats the name.
07:45:02 <itidus21> Vorpal: http://www.clipartreview.com/_images_300/Piracy_chest_with_gold_and_a_crown_120227-215262-986009.jpg
07:45:15 <fizzie> It doesn't stand for anything I know.
07:45:21 <fizzie> I don't know why it's all in uppercase.
07:45:31 <itidus21> that's what it feels like to have a set of legal disc images which never actually get used off in a storeroom
07:46:03 <Deewiant> That's the first time I've seen it in uppercase. Wikipedia has it as "Nier".
07:46:23 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway Dolphin works fine for Gamecube, iirc it can do some Wii games too
07:46:27 <Vorpal> haven't tried that feature of it
07:46:39 <Vorpal> itidus21, if you have a reasonably good PC check that out
07:47:01 <Vorpal> game audio stutters a bit for me when emulating Wind waker on Gamecube though
07:47:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, GameFAQs has it in uppercase, as does the Let's Play I've read, from which all my knowledge about the game in question comes.
07:47:16 <Vorpal> mostly when there are too many visual effects
07:47:59 <itidus21> Vorpal: well, i have dolphin and a legal version of zelda windwaker disc image
07:48:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: And SQUARE ENIX write it in uppercase at http://na.niergame.com/ but, well, they would.
07:48:22 <Vorpal> it might be playable with a good enough PC
07:48:35 <fizzie> (Even in body text, I mean.)
07:48:41 <itidus21> Vorpal: im trying to be a good freenoder
07:48:47 <Vorpal> I had to cut back a bit on the antialias
07:48:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: The Japanese tend to do that, it's true.
07:49:00 <itidus21> someone who doesn't pirate things
07:49:26 <pikhq> Bastards basically use case ad hoc.
07:49:48 <Vorpal> Hm I wish GoG did crazy sales like Steam does. :/
07:50:19 <pikhq> I've got an album here named "DocumentaLy". Pronounced "dokyumentarii" because fuck you.
07:50:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, Which language is that in?
07:51:18 <fizzie> I'm losing count of IEEE renewal reminder emails that all have said "Last Chance" in the title. How many last chances can there even be?
07:52:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, Unless that is actually how that spelling is pronounced in Japanese I would just say "fuck you" and pronounce it like it is spelled in English
07:53:00 <pikhq> It basically is what you get if you pronounce it how it would be in English, and convert to Japanese.
07:53:19 <Vorpal> what is up with the upper case L?
07:53:37 <pikhq> Japanese doesn't have an "l", it has a phoneme that sounds somewhat like "l" and somewhat like "r" that's usually romanised as "r".
07:54:09 <pikhq> For whatever reason, case is used basically for aesthetics.
07:54:11 <Vorpal> I have a hard time imagining a sound between l and r
07:54:17 <mroman> Highly depending on the speaker though.
07:54:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: i suppose what experience tells me is that ever since the SNES, several bad things happened
07:54:55 <mroman> There are japanese speakers who pronounce just like an l and some other pronounce it like a rolled r and some other again pronounce somewhere in the middle.
07:55:38 <itidus21> nintendo controls got too complicated. too many buttons. nintendo basically broke all it's own rules
07:55:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Postalveolar flap, if it helps.
07:56:10 <itidus21> i have spent so much time thinking about nintendo that i can start to see what they are doing wrong
07:56:56 <pikhq> It's the phoneme that maps least well to English phonemes.
07:57:30 <itidus21> language is cool :-s ... this room has been the first place i have started to truely appreciate that
08:00:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, it doesn't help
08:02:24 <itidus21> like, suppose you wanted to created a language to describe moves in street fighter 2.. you might start off with something like this (incomplete)
08:02:47 <pikhq> It's apparently a trilled r that you don't trill.
08:03:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't help either :/
08:03:31 <Vorpal> what does "trilled r" even mean
08:04:53 <pikhq> The Japanese "r" is sometimes done that way, too. But it comes across really quite rough.
08:05:02 <pikhq> Like, "I'm going to stab you" rough.
08:05:16 <itidus21> the japanese are really good at sounding rough
08:07:15 <pikhq> itidus21: That's generally just standard Japanese, if exaggerated.
08:07:45 <itidus21> i think western animation demonstrates anger through visuals, whereas, anime often uses the voice acting
08:08:23 <pikhq> Which is kinda weird if you look at, say, kabuki.
08:08:24 <itidus21> that subtlety somehow makes it more confronting
08:08:30 <pikhq> It doesn't get more visual than kabuki.
08:09:13 <itidus21> like i imagine an angry king in a western animation slamming his fist down and making all the objects on the table wobble
08:17:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Kabuki is a form of traditional Japanese theater.
08:18:16 <pikhq> Best known for being *profoundly* dramatic, with elaborate and bright makeup, costuming, and showy movements.
08:19:23 <itidus21> i must say im interested in japanese theater/theatre
08:19:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, isn't there some sort of theatre style over there (Japan or China) called something that sounds like "no"?
08:19:52 <itidus21> theres also noh (i think its romanized)
08:20:02 <Vorpal> I just remember some joke from the Discworld books relating to that
08:20:24 <pikhq> I'd prefer to romanise it as Nō, but.
08:20:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a variant that is easy to spell :P
08:21:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Noh" is a fairly typical English spelling.
08:21:20 <pikhq> Using that weird convention of -h to indicate a long vowel.
08:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, why not do noooooooooooooo
08:22:06 <Vorpal> that is typically used in English to indicate a "no" with a long vowel
08:22:14 <pikhq> Because to do it right you'd write it as "nou".
08:22:43 <pikhq> Because Japanese romanisation schemes are evil.
08:23:30 <pikhq> Among other things you need to actually know Japanese to round-trip them to/from kana...
08:24:15 <pikhq> Well, except nihonsiki, but nobody friggin' *uses* that.
08:24:20 <mroman> using nô is not that a good romanisation
08:24:29 <mroman> as you have no idea if that means noo or nou
08:24:40 <pikhq> And they don't handle edge cases anyways.
08:24:48 <pikhq> My form of romanization is best.
08:25:29 <pikhq> If it's representable in kana, it's representable romanized the way I do it.
08:26:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, speaking of romanisation, how do you romanise the capital of China? In Swedish texts I have seen two variants: Peking and Bejing
08:26:11 <Vorpal> that always confused me
08:26:16 <pikhq> ファイナルファンタジー comes out as "huāinaruhuānntasì-"
08:26:19 <mroman> Peking is the german word for Bejing.
08:26:42 <itidus21> heres my answer. it's not pretty though
08:26:46 <mroman> Maybe that term is used in other languages as well
08:26:55 <mroman> but we call it Peking :)
08:27:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Peking" and "Beijing" are both correct, but for different reasons.
08:27:57 <itidus21> there are often multiple transliteration schemes between two given languages. people who speak the source language have a habit of being picky and arbitrary about how you can respectfully transliterate their language
08:28:01 <Vorpal> mroman, who/what is that?
08:28:15 <mroman> It's a romanization system for Mandarin.
08:28:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Basically, two different romanizations.
08:28:30 <mroman> Which would make Beijing -> Pei-ching
08:28:45 <mroman> and I could imagine germanizing Pei-ching du Peking :)
08:28:50 <itidus21> if you want to stay on their good side, just use the source characters
08:28:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one sounds closest to the real name when you pronounce it in English though?
08:29:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Beijing".
08:29:22 <itidus21> this is extremely difficult when it comes to the philippines
08:29:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, and I guess you aren't qualified to answer that question for Swedish, so hrrm
08:29:34 <pikhq> The "Peking" spelling is also weird because it predates a sound change in Mandarin.
08:29:56 <itidus21> theres dozens of different ways to say philippines that are phonetically equivalent, and noone seems to agree what is best
08:30:01 <pikhq> It'd be more like "Peching" otherwise.
08:30:15 <itidus21> and its the same thing with the word popadum
08:30:37 <itidus21> if you walk into the indian section in a supermarket you will see as many as 12 variants of romanization of popadum
08:30:55 <Vorpal> wtf is "popadum" even?
08:31:01 <mroman> Romanization sucks anyway :)
08:31:10 <Vorpal> also I didn't know supermarkets had indian sections
08:31:14 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, pinyin replacing the traditional sometimes-adhoc romanizations of place names *officially* is fairly recent.
08:31:30 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papadum
08:31:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, is that the Bejing one?
08:31:39 <mroman> Even if something is romanizated (? is that the word for it?) you still have no clue how to spell it.
08:31:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, "Beijing" is the pinyin one.
08:31:56 <itidus21> Vorpal: look specifically at "Alternative names for papadum"
08:32:18 <itidus21> now, suppose you are trying to use the "correct" word when talking to indians :P
08:32:50 <itidus21> safer just to hold one quietly and point to it i expect
08:32:58 <pikhq> Take systematic pinyin (which, though imperfect, is at least a systematic representation of Mandarin's pronunciation), remove the tone marks, and you get "Beijing".
08:33:14 <pikhq> Making it as correct as you can get if you don't feel like or can't type the tone marks.
08:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, or don't know what they mean even :P
08:33:47 <itidus21> some people do get offended if you don't use their preferred romanization
08:33:51 <mroman> How does china call itself actually?
08:34:21 <itidus21> therefore it's really best where possible to use the source characters so theres no ambiguity, if you can :D
08:35:23 <pikhq> mroman: Officially? 中华人民共和国, Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó
08:35:42 <pikhq> mroman: Typically? 中国, Zhōngguó
08:36:10 <mroman> They use both versions of 国 in the official name?
08:36:14 <itidus21> another pesky one is tao vs dao
08:36:51 <itidus21> a fun one is kung fu vs gong fu
08:37:00 <mroman> or is that another character because my font seems to lack it :(
08:37:14 <pikhq> mroman: Yes, 共和国 is "Republic", if it has the same meaning as in Japanese...
08:37:33 <pikhq> (which it should, being kango)
08:37:39 <mroman> 國国 I have both versions in my font though.
08:38:05 <pikhq> The earlier one is simplified 華.
08:38:11 <mroman> 中华人 <- but I don't have the one in the middle here.
08:38:58 <itidus21> infact, on the wikipedia page about Papadum, at least half the page seems to discuss the word itself X_X
08:39:04 <mroman> unicode han character flowery
08:43:04 <pikhq> It's nearly 3, and I am still awake.
08:43:06 <pikhq> I hate future me *so much*!
08:43:51 <mroman> I hate past me, now me and future me.
08:53:03 <itidus21> past me kept me alive, don't have much to say about now me ..
08:53:26 <itidus21> future me has a great burden of responsibility
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09:28:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does the long version of the name for China mean?
09:30:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: "People's Republic of China"
09:31:52 <pikhq> Well. A bit more literally "China People's Republic"
09:32:31 <pikhq> (this assumes the Chinese maps well into the analogous Chinese-origin words in Japanese, which seems a safe bet, given how much sense that makes.)
09:38:56 <fizzie> "Kiinan kansantasavalta" is the Finnish version of the official name. (I don't know if it's the official Finnish version of the official name, or whether one actually exists. They might not have cared.)
09:41:21 <mroman> and that translates to?
09:44:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the official Finnish name of Finland, and what does it translate to?
09:46:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just realised what would be awesome to watch, a perfect playthrough of Mirror's Edge
09:46:54 <mroman> American TV is insteresting.
09:50:13 <fizzie> mroman: Pretty much the same thing. "[China's] [people's-republic]" if you want to be literal about it.
09:51:19 <fizzie> I don't know if we have a more impressive name for ourselves than just "Suomi". I guess "Suomen tasavalta" (Republic of Finland) might be.
09:51:36 <fizzie> That's what's on top of the infobox at http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi
09:51:58 <fizzie> (Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland for that matter.)
09:52:34 <fizzie> Still, I don't recall offhand seeing the "republic of" bit written anywhere. Perhaps in some very formal text.
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh, the president is sometimes referred to as "Suomen tasavallan presidentti", I guess.
10:00:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe Sweden is technically "The Kingdom of Sweden", but no one calls it that except in very formal texts
10:01:29 <AnotherTest> Belgium is "The Kingdom of Belgium" too, and I think that's on my passport
10:01:59 <fizzie> We kind of toyed with the idea of electing a king, back when Finland was being founded.
10:02:20 <fizzie> They even selected a German guy to be the king.
10:03:19 <Vorpal> what really? A German guy? Why
10:03:44 <fizzie> There were some ties to imperial Germany, I don't really know the details.
10:03:47 <AnotherTest> The first belgium king wasn't belgium either
10:03:54 <fizzie> Tried to get some syngery going on then.
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10:04:35 <fizzie> Then World War I ended and there was a coup in Germany and they went from an empire to a republic, and the king thing was kind of given up.
10:05:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_%281918%29 has a reasonably short summary.
10:06:02 <fizzie> "Governmental archives reveal that the monarchical designation of the king was intended, at least tentatively, to be 'Charles I, King of Finland and Karelia, Duke of Åland, Grand Duke of Lapland, Lord of Kaleva and the North'".
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10:10:17 <fizzie> Now we have no royalty to write scandalous articles of in the tabloids. :/
10:10:53 <fizzie> Didn't you have some trouble with your current king or something?
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10:16:22 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Incidentally, I'm temporarily in Belgium right now.
10:16:47 <fizzie> Our local news have to cover Swedish/Norwegian/Danish royalty since we don't have our own.
10:19:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Didn't you have some trouble with your current king or something? <-- yeah
10:19:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, for a start he is dyslexic.
10:20:06 <Vorpal> But the problem you refer to was something different
10:24:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some sort of a scandal.
10:24:49 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Leuven. But we've visited Brussels, Brugge, Knokke, Luxembourg (okay, so that's not quite Belgium) and have train tickets for a day trip to Antwerpen for next Saturday still.
10:25:11 <fizzie> Yes, visiting the local speech group for a month.
10:25:13 <AnotherTest> fizzie: if so, it's a 5 minutes walk to me :)
10:26:06 <fizzie> Our hotel/apartment thing is next to the Heverlee railway station.
10:26:38 <AnotherTest> (however I live in Heverlee, but very close to the campus of the KUL)
10:26:51 <fizzie> Oh, right, when I say "the university" I mean this ESAT building, it's here in Heverlee, next to that castle A-something.
10:27:31 <AnotherTest> Have you seen the IMEC tower construction yet :p?
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10:30:00 <fizzie> Seems to be lot of castles, yes. There were signposts for two when we went to Zoete Waters for a bit of walking.
10:30:14 <fizzie> I walked past the IMEC building when I was first trying to locate the Alma 3 restaurant, but didn't pay enough attention to notice any special towers, if that's where it is.
10:30:21 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Heh, that's close. <--- you should totally visit Hexham some time
10:31:09 <AnotherTest> Well, they're still building it. But I think it's at the other side of imec, you can only see the cranes
10:32:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: We kind of considered that on the last trip to London a while ago, but it would've been a bit far away.
10:32:14 <fizzie> Maybe some other year.
10:32:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, who are "we" here?
10:33:51 <fizzie> Well, me and my wife; we tend to do vacation trips together, after all. (Also for some reason she wasn't that keen of seeing Hexham, the esoteric programming language capital of UK, if I recall correctly.)
10:34:44 <AnotherTest> fizzie: are you really going to eat in the Alma?
10:35:14 <AnotherTest> Well, if you're lucky it's okay but... at times it's horrible
10:35:17 <fizzie> I've done it a couple of times already. Why not? They even give me the personnel price.
10:35:37 <fizzie> We had a bit of fun with their English lunch menu, though.
10:35:53 <fizzie> There were "meat trees" and "tree trunks from Hungarian castles", if I recall correctly.
10:36:08 <fizzie> It's at http://www.alma.be/eng/alma_3/menu_thisweek.php
10:36:19 <fizzie> No meat trees this week.
10:37:10 <fizzie> The sandwiches have been reasonably reasonable.
10:37:23 <Vorpal> So I purchased Mirror's Edge today, and suddenly the "Recommended" tab on steam went crazy and started suggesting Tomb Raider games. Why
10:38:12 <fizzie> There's a jumpy lady in Tomb Raider games too, I suppose.
10:38:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess... But the games play nothing similar from what I understand
10:39:05 <fizzie> I wouldn't know, thought I've seen the very first Tomb Raider game being played.
10:39:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is third person right?
10:39:34 <Vorpal> while Mirror's Edge is first person
10:39:43 <fizzie> There could be a first-person camera mode, I'm not sure.
10:39:54 <fizzie> But it does have at least some third-personness in it.
10:40:16 <Vorpal> all of the in-engine cutscenes are done in first person too.
10:40:29 <Vorpal> (there are some cell shaded cutscenes that are third person)
10:43:44 <itidus20> i like the way going by screenshots that it tries to give the most realistic visual field-within your visual-field view that it can
10:46:21 <itidus20> normal people dont seem to think of it that way
10:46:44 <fizzie> I see the current eight-hour community deal is Skyrim at half price.
10:49:24 <FireFly> I was set on buying Mirror's Edge at the -75% price, but I must've forgot about it last night..
11:33:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes it was mirror's edge before
11:33:15 <Vorpal> also I voted for deus ex: hr this time around
11:33:45 <Vorpal> itidus20, that stuff varies based on how fast you move
11:34:11 <Vorpal> as in, you get less sharp depth area when you are moving fast
11:34:25 <Vorpal> also more radial blur I think
11:34:42 <Vorpal> FireFly, anyway the game is awesome, you really missed out
11:35:40 <Vorpal> looks stunning, thanks to it's unique art style
11:37:59 <olsner> <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it? <-- through /r/programming
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11:40:48 <nortti> what kind of phone is vorpalphone?
11:40:56 <FireFly> <olsner> <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it? <-- through /r/programming <-- in case you missed it, VorpalPhone
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11:46:46 <VorpalPhone> Phantom_Hoover: what is up with the last bit of your cloak?
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12:58:32 <nooga> x86-64 opcodes are confusing
12:59:08 <nooga> i'm trying to write a small, specialized assembler
13:00:02 <olsner> bah, not much more confusing than x86 in general :)
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13:01:42 <olsner> I built a small x86-64 assembler generation monad in haskell a while ago, might remember some of the instruction encoding weirdnesses
13:03:13 <olsner> one of the "nice" weird things is that a rex prefix (with none of the new bits set) changes the meaning of the byte registers, so that ah/bh/ch/dh become sil/dil/bpl/spl
13:05:33 <nooga> 48 89 e5 -> movq %rsp, %rbp
13:05:53 <nooga> ok, 89 is MOV, e5 is this craxy modR/M byte which makes sense
13:06:07 <olsner> 48 sets the operand size to 64-bit
13:06:25 <olsner> (with the 64-bit bit set)
13:06:52 <nooga> oh, i thoght that was implied
13:07:04 <olsner> so 89 e5 would be mov ebp,esp
13:07:26 <olsner> ... and the default is 32-bit operand size in long mode
13:07:37 <olsner> (but the address size is 64-bit by default)
13:08:44 <fizzie> olsner: The default operand size without REX.W is 32 bits -- except when it isn't, e.g. for push, pop.
13:08:56 <olsner> I liked the term "64-bit bit" better :)
13:09:37 <olsner> hmm, so for push and pop, setting REX.W means 32-bit operand size?
13:09:48 <fizzie> It doesn't mean anything.
13:09:52 <fizzie> They don't do 32-bit operand size.
13:10:26 <nooga> i use this for reference: http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64-abc.html#P
13:10:28 <fizzie> In long mode, that is.
13:10:50 <nooga> but sometimes it's hard to decipher what should I actually generate in some cases
13:12:20 <olsner> that table is quite long, probably 98% of it is instructions you're not generating anyway :)
13:12:33 <nooga> and hard to browse
13:13:12 <fizzie> The Intel manual isn't too bad, though you have to jump quite a lot around between the instruction descriptions and the modRM/SIB encoding specifics.
13:13:15 <nooga> headers should stay on top and I'm too lazy to print the whole thing together with cheatsheets
13:13:22 <olsner> fizzie: is REX.W defined to be a no-op for push/pop then? what a waste of bits :/
13:13:57 <fizzie> olsner: I don't have the manuals on this box, so I don't know if it's a no-op or just undefined something. But there's no encoding of PUSH r32 in long mode.
13:15:03 <nooga> e8 5d 00 00 00 -> callq 0x100000ea3
13:15:07 <olsner> at least modRM/SIB is reusable for many instructions, so you might get away with writing generic code that handles it without jumping back and forth too much
13:15:34 <nooga> I think I will make dafuq mnemonic for something
13:15:45 <olsner> nooga: what? it's a normal call
13:16:01 <olsner> it takes a 32-bit relative offset
13:16:37 <nooga> but now it does not have 48 thing
13:16:54 <olsner> unfortunately, AMD and Intel didn't agree on the meaning of call with a 16-bit address size prefix, so there's no call with a shorter encoding than that
13:18:47 <fizzie> olsner: If you were somehow weird, you could argue that the call should zero high bits of RIP unless you add a REX.W prefix.
13:19:13 <fizzie> I mean, it's operating on 64-bit registers there, surely you'd want to be explicit about that.
13:19:30 <olsner> yeah, you could... but I think they explicitly gave all control-transfer opcodes special rules
13:20:14 <olsner> but I think you can do both call eax and call rax
13:20:44 <nooga> I don't like this mess
13:22:00 <olsner> hmm, actually, according to that huge table of instructions long mode only has call r/m64
13:22:36 <fizzie> I'm trying to open intel.pdf, but apparently a gigabyte of memory is not enough.
13:23:09 <fizzie> It's the combined manual, volumes 1-3.
13:24:25 <olsner> hmm, so long mode has far calls (m16:64), doesn't seem very useful
13:24:40 <fizzie> Yes, "CALL r/m32" is "N/E" for 64-bit mode.
13:25:14 <fizzie> olsner: There's still call gates.
13:25:24 <fizzie> "In 64-bit mode: If selector
13:25:25 <fizzie> points to a gate, then RIP =
13:25:25 <fizzie> 64-bit displacement taken
13:25:25 <fizzie> from gate; else RIP = 64-bit
13:25:25 <fizzie> offset from far pointer
13:25:34 <fizzie> (Description of CALL m16:64.)
13:26:34 <olsner> oh, there was a note attached to callf: AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual Volume 3: "If the operand-size is 32 or 64 bits, the operand is a 16-bit selector followed by a 32-bit offset." (On AMD64 architecture, 64-bit offset is not supported)
13:27:49 <olsner> hmm, but your text implies that intel does have m16:64? heh
13:27:53 <fizzie> "The operand-size attribute determines the size of the offset (16, 32, or 64
13:28:29 <fizzie> And it lists "REX.W + FF /3" as the encoding for call m16:64.
13:28:56 <olsner> nooga: apparently you need to back up your use of that table with reading both Intel and AMD64 manuals to make sure it's correct
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13:29:56 <fizzie> They don't have a CALL ptr16:64, i.e. the direct far call with a 64-bit offset, though.
13:30:13 <fizzie> Are you sure that's not what the AMD manual is saying?
13:30:19 <fizzie> I don't want to open that *too*.
13:30:38 <olsner> too lazy to actually refer to the manual right now, that quote is from the page-with-the-table
13:31:08 <fizzie> Oh. Okay. I was just wondering, since it says "the operand is selector + offset" and not something like "the operand is a reference to" or "pointer to" or whatever.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Though I suppose it's not, since the whole ptr16:32 thing is listed as invalid in 64-bit mode.
13:32:07 <olsner> well, if it's a memory operand, "the operand" is the thing stored over there in memory? at least that would be one way to use the terms
13:34:01 <nooga> olsner: where's the manual?
13:34:30 <olsner> somewhere on the web sites of the respective companies :P
13:34:35 <fizzie> You can follow the links from http://pastehtml.com/view/bsruyd6oe.html
13:34:44 <fizzie> It has both AMD and Intel ones.
13:35:04 <fizzie> Intel's combined manual PDF has only 4181 pages, it's nice light reading.
13:35:13 <olsner> fizzie: are you on ##asm? is it a good channel?
13:35:36 <fizzie> Of course it's not, it's a freenode programming channel.
13:35:50 <fizzie> Mostly it's silence punctuated with stupid questions.
13:36:26 <olsner> oh, I'd have hoped assembly programming had enough of a barrier to sort out the stupid questions
13:36:31 <fizzie> Perhaps approximately three "conversations" per day or so.
13:36:50 <nooga> #esoteric is the best channel on freenode
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13:37:46 <nortti> ok. so it was good idea to not use #esoteric command on oonbotti to span ascii goatse
13:37:50 <fizzie> Sometimes there are non-stupid questions. But it's still quite a quiet place.
13:39:18 <olsner> I wonder why they kept the call gates in amd64
13:39:26 <fizzie> olsner: Here's an example question for you, to estimate the level: <Matthias|PC> I mean, if I copy 4 bytes to the eax registry, and then copy another 4 (using mov), will the first 4 be replaced or can EAX "store" 2 * 4 bytes?
13:40:24 <olsner> how did he think that would work?
13:40:24 <fizzie> I also remember something similar about storing a string in a register. They were wondering if there's any kind of limit when you put a string in there.
13:40:49 <nortti> are assembly programmers really this stupid nowadays
13:42:15 <fizzie> olsner: <Matthias|PC> I'm not sure I get Assembly.. so I would appreciate it strongly if you guys could help me, what exactly is the point of using MOV? I get that you copy data, but why would you do that? Also, EAX is a 32 bit registry, but does that mean it can contain 4 bytes max at once, or multiple times 4 bytes?
13:42:34 <fizzie> olsner: <Matthias|PC> I mean, is MOV faster than for example, copying a var in C++ or so?
13:44:04 <nortti> (quote < olsner> I wonder why they kept the call gates in amd64) why not? is there a better replacement?
13:44:53 <olsner> I think syscall was supposed to be the One True entry to kernel mode
13:45:49 <nortti> hmm. Wouldn't interrupt work?
13:46:24 <olsner> yes, but interrupts (and call gates, for that matter) are as I understand it much slower than syscall
13:47:30 <fizzie> olsner: I would think call gates are still there to cater for the same people who are running operating systems that use all four privilege levels too.
13:49:01 <nortti> does syscall only support 2?
13:49:08 <olsner> I suppose... or for OS:es that extensively use call gates in their 32-bit ABI, and need to support 32-bit on 64-bit
13:50:01 <fizzie> syscall is I believe only useful for the usual ring 0 / ring 3 split.
13:50:34 <olsner> they could've added a "attempt to call a call gate from 32-bit" entry-point similar to syscall, that 64-bit oses need to implement if they use it
13:51:45 <olsner> or just reserve the opcode and call the undefined instruction interrupt when old code tries to use it :)
13:53:13 <fizzie> I think User Mode Linux did some trickery that involved ring 1/2. Or maybe Xen before the hardware-supported virtualization days. Something, anyway.
13:53:26 <fizzie> http://lwn.net/Articles/13868/ so hacky.
13:58:19 <fizzie> I don't think that thing was ever used for anything at all.
13:58:53 <nortti> also it can't be used on many other archs
13:59:49 <olsner> oh well, I guess they need the call gates to support pure 32-bit code running on 64-bit processors anyway
14:01:38 <fizzie> Ho, coLinux has still received updates in 2011. That's also such a kludgey-feeling thing.
14:02:45 <fizzie> It's the thing where you run a Linux kernel alongside a Windows in ring 0.
14:03:15 <fizzie> There's a Windows driver you install, and that takes care of negotiating things.
14:03:18 <olsner> heh, their screenshots have them running Cygwin/XFree86 to display stuff running in coLinux
14:03:29 <fizzie> And the Linux kernel has been patched to be extra careful.
14:03:44 <fizzie> Yeah, it doesn't do any direct hardware access from the Linux side.
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14:03:57 <fizzie> Since that'd confuse the Windows.
14:04:17 <fizzie> Or maybe you can allocate some devices for Linux-exclusive use, but anyway.
14:05:01 <olsner> does coLinux run in linux too?
14:05:18 <fizzie> I don't know. I thought it was Windows-only.
14:05:22 <nortti> that'd be interestingg
14:05:34 <fizzie> It reminds me of the MkLinux setup I had; that one runs a Linux kernel as a single thread in the Mach microkernel. People do the weirdest things.
14:06:01 <nortti> what version is mklinux on nowadays?
14:06:28 <nortti> fizzie: what kind of hw did you use?
14:06:40 <fizzie> "Latest stable release: Pre-R2 / 2002-08-05" says Wikipedia. I think it was the same back when I fiddled with it.
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14:07:22 <nortti> I mean linux kernel version
14:08:22 <fizzie> 2.0.thirty-something, I believe.
14:08:26 <nortti> ok. found it. it has 2.0 kernel
14:08:49 <fizzie> And I ran it on a Performa... 5260? Something like that.
14:09:01 <nortti> does it run anything else than nubus ppc macs?
14:09:52 <fizzie> I think it runs on PCI PPC things too.
14:10:11 <fizzie> Though you could probably run a regular PPC Linux on those.
14:10:49 <nortti> nah. normal ppc linux is not strange enough
14:11:48 <fizzie> I don't think NuBus PowerMacs can generally speaking really run anything else than MkLinux; at least, it was the only thing I could make working on my Performa.
14:11:56 <fizzie> For some values of "working", anyway.
14:12:18 <nortti> oh. there are ports for intel, PA-RISC and ppc
14:13:46 <nooga> I love "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools"
14:16:17 <nooga> they explain an algorithm, give an example and a bit of pseudocode that's riddiculously high-level and then leave You to figure out details and jump between figures and snippets spread all over the chapter
14:17:38 <nooga> and it's still amusing
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14:21:45 <nooga> like an abstract algebra textbook sprinkled with for ... in ... and if ... then keywords :P
14:22:06 <nooga> and the actual code examples are mainly in C
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14:23:01 <nooga> i saw 3 pseudocode listings that'd fit on a single page
14:23:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 60.2
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14:24:46 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 59.7
14:24:52 <nooga> "OK, let's implement this in C" i thought and I suddenly end up with my own implementation of HashSet and several other utilities to back up the actual algorithm
14:25:17 <nooga> which is like 100LOC itself
14:26:26 <mroman> I sell haskell as pseudo-code
14:26:41 <mroman> nobody knows haskell so nobody complains that it is not actual pseudo-code :)
14:27:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 59.3
14:27:48 <mroman> !bfjoust muh_again (>+>-)*4>[>][-][<][+]
14:27:51 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh_again: 1.3
14:28:24 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
14:28:28 <mroman> !bfjoust muh_again (>+>-)*4([>][-])*50
14:28:31 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh_again: 1.3
14:28:54 <mroman> Not knowing how big the tape is is somewhat awkward.
14:28:56 <nooga> haskell actually compiles to C
14:29:33 <mroman> but it also has a native backend.
14:30:47 <nooga> I could retype the listings in haskell and obtain C form and then write glue in C :D
14:32:24 <nooga> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Calling_Haskell_from_C like here
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15:41:08 <AnotherTest> nooga: and the actual code examples are mainly in C < and Java
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15:46:34 <AnotherTest> nooga: you don't happen to have solutions to any of the exercises somewhere? That would be nice :D
16:03:12 <itidus20> http://imgur.com/gallery/JGn2l because i can't get enough of this
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18:59:10 <oerjan> <nooga> haskell actually compiles to C
18:59:35 <copumpkin> certain compilers compile haskell to C
18:59:47 <copumpkin> the biggest one does so very reluctantly
19:00:15 <oerjan> actually the efficient C backend in ghc has been discontinued, there's still a slow portable one for assisting porting
19:00:53 <oerjan> i guess jhc may compile to C?
19:03:04 <kmc> the efficient "C" backend didn't really produce C
19:03:24 <oerjan> afaik the current efficient ghc backends are llvm and native code
19:03:39 <nooga> AnotherTest: i think i don't have the solutions
19:03:53 <kmc> it produced eldritch horrors accepted by certain versions of GCC, and then post-processed the assembly output with a thousand line perl script called the Evil Mangler
19:04:00 <kmc> so yeah I think everyone is happy to be rid of that
19:04:38 <oerjan> so does ghc contain any perl still?
19:05:17 <kmc> i heard there was a much smaller mangler for LLVM
19:05:30 <kmc> but they may have got the necessary features into mainline LLVM and done away with that too
19:05:42 <kmc> relating to tables-next-to-code optimization, iirc
19:05:54 <kmc> which i can explain if anyone would like to hear about it
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19:08:32 <nooga> i'm seriously thinking about writing these algorithms in haskell and then interfacing with C code
19:08:45 <kmc> Haskell's FFI is nice and simple
19:08:48 <kmc> you should do it
19:08:59 <kmc> well, you should consider it seriously anyway
19:09:15 <kmc> getting complex data structures between the two languages is still a pain
19:09:20 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/browser/driver/split/ghc-split.lprl seems to still be used, the module object splitter
19:09:22 <kmc> largely because C sucks at complex datastructures
19:10:12 <nooga> i'd try to design it in such way that i just input a tree and get a directed graph with labels
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19:10:49 <oerjan> kmc: isn't that when one is supposed to use one of the libraries for whycantiremembertheword
19:11:03 <nooga> and haskell would take care of walking the trees, building sets, mangling sets and making sets of sets
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19:11:56 * oerjan has never used the ffi anyway
19:12:44 <kmc> nooga: what algorithm is this
19:15:35 <nooga> building a deterministic finite automaton straight from a regexp's parse tree
19:16:06 <nooga> and then minimizing the number of states of that automaton
19:17:09 <nooga> well, not exactly a regexp but I'm just basing on that algorithm because my concept has many similarities
19:17:41 <kmc> oerjan: serializing to a byte stream is a different problem from marshalling to C data structures in memory
19:17:46 <kmc> though you can solve the latter with the former
19:17:57 <kmc> less efficiently
19:18:18 <kmc> you know your interface can be that Haskell writes a blob of JSON into a C string and then C parses it
19:21:52 <nooga> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bodgy
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19:23:40 <nooga> i got that word from watching Dave Jones' EEVlog
19:24:37 <kmc> it is a hack, but it might also be the quickest way to Get Shit Done
19:27:29 <kmc> i strongly believe that using multiple languages often makes sense for getting shit done
19:27:45 <kmc> but this requires minimizing the effort overhead of interoperation
19:28:14 <kmc> which usually means picking simple, standard, text-based data formats
19:30:04 <kmc> the currently trendy school of webapp design is all about using many languages on many machines interacting through loose text-based protocols
19:30:19 <kmc> a lot of it is unnecessary, but i still think it's a good principle overall
19:32:14 <kmc> you have your frontend app, your batch processing daemons, your database(s), your caching servers, etc.
19:32:24 <kmc> and they all communicate over some message bus, or just JSON over HTTP
19:32:39 <kmc> one interesting recent trend is to extend this down to the client
19:34:16 <kmc> i don't really know this world
19:34:20 <kmc> but as an outsider, that sounds like a good idea
19:36:50 <AnotherTest> nooga: I was just making those exercices about deterministic finite automata
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20:32:57 <mroman> kmc: It also reduces the complexity and payload of your webapp.
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20:33:16 <mroman> and it completele removes the design of the webpage
20:33:30 <mroman> and your webapp is completely loose from html at all.
20:33:50 <mroman> that makes it easier to port to other stuff.
20:37:21 <kmc> i don't know what you mean by "removes the design of the webpage"
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20:37:33 <kmc> you still need design if you want it to look good
20:39:19 <mroman> It removes the design of the webpage from the server side.
20:39:34 <mroman> As well as the html structure.
20:39:41 <kmc> from the server side logic, yes
20:39:49 <kmc> but hopefully you are separating logic from presentation anyway
20:40:02 <kmc> the design is still something you serve, of course
20:40:03 <mroman> You can't in a traditional application.
20:40:14 <mroman> If your server serves html, then you are bound to that.
20:40:38 <kmc> no, you separate logic from presentation by using HTML templates and a MVC layer
20:40:42 <mroman> You can seperate it in the logic of your server side code as good as you can
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20:42:33 <kmc> c0wpumpkin
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23:30:07 <oerjan> something tells me she wasn't in our channel's target group
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23:51:34 <HackEgo> file:///etc/group: Unsupported scheme `file'.
23:52:23 <zzo38> kallisti: Just use cp; if that won't work then there would be no reason for file: to work either.
23:55:23 <zzo38> Then perhaps they do not want you to be able to access file outside of the umlbox
23:57:50 <kallisti> zzo38: I had never considered that.
23:58:06 <kallisti> I thought Gregor wanted me to access arbitrary files from the host filesystem.