00:00:07 <kmc> zzo38: because you can't get water at an acceptable temperature for hand-washing
00:00:13 <kmc> which is to say, a mixture of hot and cold
00:00:32 <olsner> maybe, if you'd consider assembly, something like... bt (reads a bit vector, sets carry flag) followed by sbb 0 perhaps?
00:01:02 <oerjan> <oerjan> pikhq_: -!((~col)>>24)
00:01:18 <pikhq_> oerjan: Not right, removing the ~ makes it work
00:01:36 <oerjan> pikhq_: huh? the ~ is essential...
00:02:01 <pikhq_> But it doesn't work right.
00:03:48 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0xFF012345)>>24))
00:04:15 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0xFE012345)>>24))
00:04:24 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0x00012345)>>24))
00:04:36 <oerjan> pikhq_: that's what you said you wanted...
00:05:01 <pikhq_> *Weird*. Sticking it in my code base gives me the wrong mask.
00:05:38 <oerjan> it's a replacement for -!!((col & 0xFF000000) ^ 0xFF000000)
00:06:14 <oerjan> and it assumes, of course, that the bit width is 4 bytes and no more
00:06:31 * pikhq_ declares himself confused
00:06:56 <elliott> <kmc> why do so many sinks in the UK have separate faucets for hot and cold water
00:06:56 <elliott> <kmc> it is completely unreasonable
00:07:06 <pikhq_> oerjan: I'm dealing in uint32_t so it must be.
00:07:09 <elliott> <kmc> zzo38: because you can't get water at an acceptable temperature for hand-washing
00:07:09 <elliott> <kmc> which is to say, a mixture of hot and cold
00:07:25 <elliott> kmc: the hot tap works just fine, just don't dawdle... alternatively, mix the two in the sink
00:07:34 <kmc> elliott: uh you have a single faucet with two knobs, or a two-dimensional knob
00:07:40 <kmc> so that you can make it produce water of any temperature
00:07:42 <elliott> (but doing that all the time would be weird)
00:07:49 <kmc> elliott: fill up the basin and then wash my hands in it?
00:07:51 <kmc> that's ridiculous
00:07:52 <elliott> kmc: we have those in kitchens
00:07:55 <kmc> gross and wasteful
00:07:57 <kmc> yeah and showers
00:08:00 <elliott> that's why you just use the hot tap
00:08:03 <pikhq_> (col & 0xFF000000) == 0xFF000000 ? 0 : 0xFFFFFFFF // This gives me what I want without being insane
00:08:09 <elliott> if you get scalded it is because you are weak and inferior
00:08:20 <oerjan> pikhq_: hm the ! might convert to some other bitsize?
00:08:25 <kmc> just like that sauna guy with the kidney thing
00:08:46 <kmc> i havent got scalded yet but it's still uncomfortable
00:08:51 <kmc> too hot water = too short hand washing
00:08:54 <kmc> = everyone gets plague and dies
00:09:09 <kmc> THAT HAPPENED HERE, WON'T YOU LEARN FROM HISTORY
00:09:12 <oerjan> pikhq_: does -(uint32_t)!((~col)>>24) work?
00:09:36 <kmc> yes, separate faucets several inches apart
00:09:42 <kmc> it's ridiculous
00:09:52 <olsner> spirity: I think usually they are on the opposite sides of the sink too
00:10:06 <kmc> http://pim.famnit.upr.si/blog/index.php?/archives/22-British-taps-1.html
00:10:14 <elliott> spirity: http://www.salvo.co.uk/images/userimgs/40375/Sink_52385_1.jpg except less old fashioned
00:10:18 <kmc> filling up the basin to wash your hands is ridiculous, inefficient, gross, and wasteful
00:10:33 <spirity> kmc: depends on how long you wash your hands
00:10:39 <kmc> anyway i disagree this "works just fine"
00:10:40 <elliott> http://www.bruceonshaving.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sink-and-Mirror-by-Antonio-Lopez-Garcia-traditional-shaving.jpg
00:10:45 <elliott> <kmc> filling up the basin to wash your hands is ridiculous, inefficient, gross, and wasteful
00:10:49 <elliott> this was not a serious suggestion btw
00:10:51 <kmc> you can make it work, it's still clearly worse than a single tap
00:11:06 <kmc> elliott: it's not just you, i am reading this suggestion all over the internet as i try to figure out this madness
00:11:17 <olsner> elliott: it sounded like you were serious about the separate faucets thing being a good idea
00:11:18 <kmc> it seems like everyone has their own urban legend for why it's done this way
00:11:24 <kmc> like someone says hot water is not necessarily potable
00:11:24 <elliott> I don't really see how it's wasteful per se though
00:11:33 <elliott> olsner: well I just do not care mostly
00:11:41 <kmc> elliott: because you use more water filling the basin
00:11:43 <elliott> I usually find the hot tap not hot enough for ages anyway
00:11:48 <kmc> maybe? i'm not positive
00:11:57 <olsner> I think washing hands in a bowl of water is how it was done in the days before running water
00:11:58 <elliott> kmc: are you sure? I suspect you use more when it just goes down the drain
00:12:05 <kmc> yeah i don't know
00:12:07 <olsner> so obviously you continue when you get the faucets installed
00:12:19 <kmc> hysterical raisins
00:12:20 <spirity> elliott: I changed the water heater in my apartment so that it's hotter.
00:12:49 <elliott> I usually use the hot tap and then rinse with the cold tap
00:12:51 <spirity> now I can burn myself via the sink!
00:13:22 <kmc> in some (old?) farm buildings, there are two taps
00:13:30 <kmc> but it's hard and soft water
00:13:33 <kmc> rather than hot and cold
00:13:45 <kmc> hard water from a well, soft water from rain collection
00:14:02 <kmc> possibly the hard water is non-potable and/or disgusting as well
00:14:18 <spirity> my parents have well water and it's perfectly fine.
00:14:33 <spirity> also tastes better than city tap, by far.
00:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Washing your hands with just the hot tap is easy anyway.
00:14:47 <elliott> I forget whether we have hard or soft tap water in Hexham.
00:15:21 <kmc> i'd tap that
00:15:29 <olsner> you probably have hard water, poorly filtered and full of whatever the thing is that you don't want in there
00:15:40 <elliott> "Information from the British Drinking Water Inspectorate shows that drinking water in England is generally considered to be 'very hard', with most areas of England, particularly east of a line between the Severn and Tees estuaries, exhibiting above 200 ppm for the calcium carbonate equivalent."
00:16:07 <elliott> olsner: if you're a conspiracy theorist, fluoride!
00:16:40 <kmc> i'd tap that for 2 mana
00:16:45 <kmc> i use mosh
00:16:46 <spirity> I might set it up on my server, because ssh lag is killing me.
00:16:48 <kmc> also i'm one of the developers
00:16:51 <pikhq_> *Urgh*. Trying to blit stuff in seems to be slower than a conditional write.
00:17:12 <kmc> happy to answer any questions :)
00:17:18 <kmc> we also have #mosh
00:17:25 <spirity> I was having issues with it until I set my locale properly
00:17:33 <kmc> i'm traveling all over europe, and mosh is making my life much happier
00:17:46 <kmc> spirity: ah -- the locale stuff got more automagic in mosh 1.2
00:17:51 <kmc> (if you're not running that already)
00:17:51 <elliott> but it is still set up on the server that runs esolangs.org
00:18:09 <spirity> kmc: that's what I'm running actually. I think my server was set up for ISO-blahblah by default
00:18:18 <spirity> but I switched to en_US.UTF-8
00:18:19 <olsner> elliott: what's that in degrees Clarke?
00:18:27 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
00:18:40 <olsner> or in german degrees of hardness?
00:18:42 <kmc> in mosh 1.2+, the client sends the locale-related environment variables to the server
00:19:14 <spirity> but the locale must be installed on the server, right?
00:19:21 <spirity> right, that was the issue.
00:19:28 <kmc> makes sense
00:19:30 <spirity> I now have /all/ the locales.
00:19:31 <kmc> what server OS?
00:20:07 <spirity> Linux spirity.org 3.2.13-grsec-xxxx-grs-ipv6-64 #1 SMP Thu Mar 29 09:48:59 UTC 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:20:28 <kmc> well that doesn't say much about the OS or locale settings ;P
00:20:34 <kmc> especially since you seem to be running a custom kernel
00:20:57 <oerjan> pikhq_: it actually should be -!!((~col)>>24), i just realized i was confused by an erroneous "not" in your non-code explanation
00:21:03 <spirity> it's an kimsufi server (which is just a reseller of OVH) .
00:21:10 <kmc> in the long run i think mosh should switch to a dedicated unicode library, which doesn't care about system locales
00:21:24 <kmc> kudos to them for using grsec
00:21:35 <spirity> it's also insanely cheap. 15 euros a month.
00:22:06 <spirity> though the specs aren't great. I don't need awesome specs.
00:22:32 <zzo38> Can you use the C locale? On the Linux I use at Free Geek they use Unicode locale by default but I made it C locale and the CP437 characters on my account that make it work.
00:22:48 <oerjan> (just removing ~ will _not_ work if the top byte is neither 0x00 nor 0xFF)
00:22:53 <kmc> zzo38: Mosh is hardcoded for Unicode and UTF-8
00:23:13 -!- spirity has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:23:25 <kmc> it uses the locale functions to get character properties such as width (zero, one, or two terminal cells) and for utf-8 encoding/decoding
00:23:31 <kmc> those things won't work in plain C locale
00:23:35 <olsner> hmm, if the english water is "generally considered to be 'very hard'", why do they use that scale? they should switch to a scale where most of england has the usual hardness of water
00:23:41 <kmc> some systems have a human-language-agnostic "C.UTF-8" locale
00:23:44 <kmc> but it's far from universal
00:23:53 <kmc> maybe it should go on some fallback list of locales to try
00:24:18 <oerjan> elliott: i've read that not having hot enough hot water tanks can breed legionella
00:24:46 <oerjan> i also vaguely recall seeing separate hot and cold faucets in norway, in ancient buildings.
00:25:16 <olsner> pikhq_: you should split out the alpha part from the rest of the image, then you only have to read 1 byte before you decide whether to read or write a color at all
00:25:27 <kmc> also machines don't even agree on the capitalization of "UTF" :(
00:26:13 <olsner> (you could further compress the alpha channel to eliminate more work)
00:26:13 <kmc> also some OSes still don't support UTF-8 terminals
00:26:15 -!- spirity has joined.
00:26:30 <kmc> whether you can backspace over a multi-byte character is a property of the *kernel*
00:26:33 <kmc> because UNIX is insane
00:26:52 <zzo38> The Swiss Ephemeris testing program is also hardcoded for UTF-8 so what I did is write a shell script, which, as well as including the current date, time, and location, also converts the UTF-8 degree sign encoding to the shift-out/shift-in encoding.
00:29:19 <kmc> yeah, mosh also deliberately ignores the ISO-2022 character set shift codes
00:29:24 <kmc> which has been the subject of much controversy
00:29:38 * kmc wonders how many ISO specs he can describe from just the number
00:30:14 <zzo38> (Swiss Ephemeris testing program also lacks the ability to automatically select the current date and time, I don't know why that is, either)
00:30:16 <kmc> 646, 10646, 9899, 9000, 9600, 2022, 3103
00:30:59 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
00:31:08 <kmc> "Remote terminal application that allows roaming, supports intermittent connectivity, and provides intelligent local echo and line editing of user keystrokes."
00:31:26 <kmc> it uses SSH for the connection setup, but the ongoing session runs over a new UDP-based protocol
00:31:47 <kmc> it has terminal-aware flow control as well
00:32:20 <zzo38> Could mosh be modified to support the non-Unicode mode?
00:32:31 <kmc> basically at every moment in time, the server is trying to update the client's terminal to the current state
00:32:36 <kmc> almost like a video conferencing protocol
00:32:52 <kmc> this also means it has terminal-aware flow control
00:33:04 <kmc> if a packet is dropped, you might not want to retransmit that packet; the terminal may have changed in the meantime
00:33:21 <kmc> if a remote command spews output, you get "snapshots" of that spew at whatever framerate your connection can sustain
00:33:39 <kmc> rather than getting a lagged complete sequence of the output, like ssh
00:33:45 <kmc> this means mplayer -vo caca works much better over mosh
00:33:50 <kmc> which is a killer feature of course
00:34:18 <pikhq_> olsner: Drawing sprites and grid tiles seems to be pretty darned hard given how these things are specified.
00:34:18 <kmc> zzo38: could, but won't.
00:34:19 <kmc> "We're really not UTF-8 zealots. But it's a lot easier to correctly implement one terminal emulator than to try to do the right thing in a variety of difficult edge cases. (This is what GNU screen tries to do, and in our experience it leads to some very tricky-to-debug situations.) So mosh just won't start up until the user has everything configured for a UTF-8-clean pathway. It may be annoying, but it also probably reduces frustration down
00:34:21 <elliott> <oerjan> elliott: i've read that not having hot enough hot water tanks can breed legionella
00:34:45 <kmc> (n.b. that's KeithW's writing, I *am* something of a a UTF-8 zealot)
00:34:48 <elliott> <kmc> which has been the subject of much controversy
00:35:02 <kmc> zzo38: of course if by "non-Unicode" you mean ASCII only, then it will work fine
00:35:12 <kmc> except, you still need the locale to get that character info
00:35:16 <kmc> so no, it does not really work fine
00:35:18 <kmc> elliott: yes
00:35:33 <kmc> people have various software that wants to use ISO 2022 codes to draw line-drawing characters
00:35:35 <elliott> kmc: btw you got cut off at "frustration down"
00:35:51 <kmc> "... reduces frustration down the road. (Unfortunately an 8-bit vt220 and a UTF-8 vt220 are different and incompatible terminal types; the UTF-8 goes in underneath the vt220 state machine.)"
00:36:05 <olsner> elliott: that is why there's a minimum temperature for hot water systems somewhere slightly below the point that'll cause instant scalding
00:36:28 <kmc> elliott: much of this software can be convinced to draw them with UTF-8 encoded characters
00:36:35 <kmc> like any other character
00:36:52 <kmc> but, a) some software can't, b) some people are offended that they have to do this
00:37:13 <kmc> (for ncurses software you just set NCURSES_NO_UTF8_ACS=1)
00:37:40 <kmc> elliott: it's a decision to deliberately break compatibility in favor of pushing people slightly to a more sane state of affairs
00:37:44 <kmc> those are always tricky
00:37:54 <elliott> kmc: i am just surprised anyone actually cares about those things
00:37:54 <kmc> mosh generally prides itself on Correct™ terminal emulation
00:38:05 <kmc> and this is something of an exception
00:38:08 <elliott> kmc: or rather, that such people would care about mosh
00:38:21 <elliott> but I guess they only care about it insofar as they can complain about that aspect of it
00:38:21 <spirity> kmc: hm, does video conferencing software also use UDP?
00:38:31 <spirity> I'm unfamiliar with the use cases of UDP
00:38:49 <kmc> although keithw will tell you that certain "UTF-8 scholars" consider ISO-10646 to supersede ISO-2022, the way the New Testament supersedes the Old
00:38:53 <kmc> spirity: yes, often
00:39:12 <kmc> although the only thing which actually works on the Internet anymore is TCP over port 443
00:39:22 <kmc> so i imagine a lot of it falls back to that
00:39:29 <spirity> I've been thinking about a general purpose "streaming" protocol. something like mpd if mpd were more like http (that doesn't make any sense does it)
00:39:44 <kmc> spirity: you want UDP for video conf because you can keep rollin' past a dropped packet
00:39:48 <kmc> you don't need to retransmit everything
00:40:02 <kmc> mosh is not quite the same
00:40:13 <kmc> in fact it will never display to you a terminal state which did not occur on the server at some point
00:40:31 <kmc> updates of the visible terminal state are atomic (ignoring the delay between mosh-client and your terminal emulator and X etc)
00:40:40 <kmc> but it doesn't do reliable retransmit either
00:40:53 <kmc> the states are indexed by an incrementing sequence number
00:41:04 <spirity> rapidly changing my irssi screen size tends to mes it up, I've noticed.
00:41:20 <kmc> the server remembers a range of the state numbers which it knows the client has saved
00:41:25 <kmc> and will base each new state on one of those
00:41:39 <kmc> and once the client knows the server knows it has a later state, it's free to drop an earlier one
00:41:45 <kmc> this is all in the paper on mosh.mit.edu if you want to learn more
00:41:54 <kmc> spirity: interesting, mess up how? and does it eventually fix itself?
00:42:08 <spirity> usually. I can't get it to do it again. :P
00:42:53 <zzo38> Then modify mosh so that it can be used with CP437 and shift-in/shift-out encoding of special symbols (I have written some files to make it work with Linux, one of them is a copy of "mzx_ascii.chr" from MegaZeux).
00:43:28 <kmc> apparently you can buy polish jaffa cakes in boston for $1 per 10
00:43:35 <kmc> which is not as cheap as the UK but pretty good for the US
00:44:01 <kmc> zzo38: did you read the rationale for being UTF-8 only
00:44:24 <kmc> which shift-in/shift-out encoding is this? ISO-2022 codes like \e(0 ?
00:44:24 <spirity> I feel like it's magically trained itself to not break anymore.
00:45:01 <zzo38> kmc: I mean the ASCII codes for shift-in and shift-out
00:45:27 <zzo38> kmc: I did read the retionale for being UTF-8 only and I disagree. So if I ever use mosh I will make a non-Unicode version.
00:45:47 <kmc> oh, 0x0E and 0x0F?
00:45:57 <spirity> I've been spamming various xmonad key combos to rapidly reorient the window and nothing will make it do the same thing. in any case it was a really minor thing, the topic and notification bars in irssi weren't displaying, but everything else was fine.
00:46:02 <kmc> are the meanings of those character specified by ISO-2022?
00:46:21 <kmc> what do they do with CP437 under DOS?
00:46:29 <zzo38> I mean 0x0E and 0x0F. They do nothing under DOS.
00:46:31 <kmc> do they typically mean anything in a Linux terminal emulator?
00:46:42 <zzo38> In the Linux terminal emulator they do work.
00:46:47 <kmc> which part do you disagree with
00:47:14 <kmc> can you give me a command using 'printf' or such which would demonstrate the meaning
00:47:21 <kmc> printf '\x0efoo' and printf '\x0ffoo' do nothing special here
00:48:01 <kmc> zzo38: which part of the rationale do you disagree with
00:48:05 <zzo38> What terminal emulator are you using? Is it Linux, or is it another terminal emulator running under Linux?
00:48:12 <elliott> kmc: are they gourmet polish jaffa cakes
00:48:20 <kmc> zzo38: rxvt-unicode
00:48:38 <zzo38> Perhaps it doesn't work with Unicode?
00:49:07 <kmc> doesn't work in plain xterm either
00:49:12 <kmc> but it does work in the Linux vt console
00:49:36 <zzo38> Yes, it works in the Linux console.
00:51:11 <spirity> kmc: are you famiiar with RUDP?
00:51:39 <elliott> kmc: are you aware of [[In the UK, value added tax is payable on chocolate-covered biscuits, but not on chocolate-covered cakes. McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes in court, producing a 12 inches (30 cm) Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes. McVities argued that a distinction between cakes and biscuits is, among other things, that biscuits would normally be expected to go soft when st
00:51:39 <elliott> ale, whereas cakes would normally be expected to go hard. It was demonstrated to the Tribunal that Jaffa Cakes become hard when stale. Other factors taken into account by the Chairman, Potter QC, included the name, ingredients, texture, size, packaging, marketing, presentation, appeal to children, and manufacturing process. Potter ruled that the Jaffa Cake is a cake. McVities therefore won the case and VAT is not paid on Jaffa Cakes in the UK.[8]
00:51:40 <kmc> spirity: no
00:51:42 <spirity> seems like it could be suitable for a remote terminal, but I don't know much about it.
00:51:45 <elliott> this is the kind of thing that goes on in the UK
00:51:47 <kmc> elliott: yes i love this fact
00:51:59 <kmc> spirity: perhaps
00:52:05 <kmc> but Mosh doesn't even want guaranteed in-order datagram delivery
00:52:08 <elliott> like has there ever been a more entertaining case over whether taxes need to be paid or not
00:52:22 <elliott> imagine being one of the lawyers
00:52:37 <elliott> "OK, we need you to bake... a really big Jaffa Cake." "How big?" "The biggest Jaffa Cake."
00:52:48 <elliott> "But-" "WHO IS THE LAWYER HERE"
00:55:01 <spirity> kmc: how does mosh distinguish between connection loss and intentionally closing the terminal?
00:55:22 -!- david_werecat has joined.
00:56:05 <spirity> I guess that would be pretty easy to distinguish, actually.
00:56:17 <spirity> except the situation where terminal is closed while offline.
00:56:28 <spirity> the local mosh client, that is.
00:59:46 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:04:02 <zzo38> The files for CP437 in Linux includes: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/load_mzx_ascii http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/newunimap.1 and a copy of mzx_ascii.chr from MegaZeux
01:04:54 <kmc> spirity: yes, if you kill mosh-client while offline, the mosh-server process will keep running forever
01:05:07 <kmc> (mosh-client prints a message to this effect)
01:05:56 <kmc> also if the client machine kernel panics or battery dies or whatever
01:06:13 <kmc> and there's no way to reconnect to the orphaned mosh-server; you just log in and kill it
01:06:39 <kmc> currently if you want reconnection of this sort, you just run screen or tmux in mosh (which brings many other benefits)
01:06:51 <kmc> the exception is that a mosh-server which has *never* heard from the client will die after 60 s
01:07:39 <elliott> kmc: hmm, that seems solvable
01:07:58 <kmc> the fact that it hangs forever?
01:08:07 <kmc> well you can set an arbitrary timeout
01:08:21 <kmc> actually i think the best solution today is to use "mosh user@host -- screen -dr"
01:08:35 <kmc> then if you mosh in again, the old screen gets detached and the old mosh session dies automatically
01:09:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:10:04 <kmc> but there's really no way for the server to distinguish "client has died" from "client is off the internet but will come back in 6 months"
01:10:40 <kmc> as for reconnecting to the orphaned mosh-server, we've discussed that but it seems pretty complicated and has some tricky security implications
01:10:47 <kmc> and the screen/tmux solution seems fine
01:10:59 <elliott> kmc: the fact that you can't reconnect without an extra wrapper
01:12:28 <kmc> well you could add a way to talk to the old mosh-server from your new SSH session, say over a UNIX socket
01:12:39 <kmc> this sounds like a pain and is basically duplicating how screen/tmux already work
01:13:15 <kmc> or you could add a way to persist the session to disk client-side
01:13:25 <kmc> but this seems bad bad bad because you're saving the crypto key
01:13:34 <kmc> and because you need to be damn sure you never use the same cryptographic nonce twice
01:14:11 <kmc> so a stale client side state file (full disk anyone?) could compromise your session
01:16:49 <kmc> actually i kind of want mosh to swallow screen functionality though
01:16:58 <kmc> because then you could have every multiplexed window saved client-side
01:17:02 <kmc> and avoid the lag when switching windows
01:18:05 <kmc> remember that any tricky shit with sockets needs to work on Linux (2.6.18 through 3.4, many distros), FreeBSD, OS X, and (soon) Cygwin and Solaris
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01:40:14 <kmc> also hehe there are places where the london overground crosses under the london underground
01:40:37 <kmc> today i got off an overground train underground and went up some stairs to travel on an underground train overground
01:40:46 <kmc> (these being actually pretty arbitrary labels)
01:43:09 <spirity> probably historical labels.
01:44:13 <spirity> it would be nice if the US had a decent bus/rail transit system.
01:44:23 <spirity> at least on a regional basis.
01:45:44 <spirity> Atlanta in particular is notorious as a "vehicle only" city.
01:46:40 <spirity> Three major interstate highways converge in Atlanta: I-20 (east-west), I-75 (northwest-southeast), and I-85 (northeast-southwest). The latter two combine in the middle of the city to form the Downtown Connector (I-75/85), which carries more than 340,000 vehicles per day and is one of the ten most congested segments of interstate highway in the United States.[178]
01:55:21 <kmc> spirity: it's not exactly historical, but basically
01:56:20 <kmc> mainline trains are operated by various companies, according to franchises with the owner of the rail lines (which is almost but not quite the uk government)
01:56:54 <spirity> kmc: could SSP be used for audo/video streaming?
01:57:16 <kmc> Transport for London, who runs the Underground, set up such a franchise operator and got the franchise for various trains in the London area
01:58:08 <kmc> and that's Overground
01:58:29 <spirity> I don't think Skype allows roaming connections. SSP would
01:58:30 <kmc> the distinction between rapid transit and mainline rail is also a bit fuzzy; they share tracks in some places and other bits have change from one to the other
01:58:42 <kmc> spirity: yes, KeithW is very interested in doing that
01:58:44 <kmc> you can talk to him in #mosh
01:59:17 <kmc> spirity: yeah, a number of cities in the USA have okay rail rapid transit, but intercity rail is mostly a joke
01:59:42 <spirity> I've been thinking about the possibility of a UDP-based protocol for audo/video streaming (live or with playback) whose connections could be initializes over other protocols (such as HTTPS)
02:00:04 <kmc> only the northeast corridor from Boston to DC operates like a decent intercity line
02:00:14 <kmc> and i'm not even talking about Acela (which is a joke as far as high speed rail goes)
02:00:20 <kmc> just that the trains are frequent and more or less run on time
02:00:58 <kmc> spirity: I think that's how most VoIP, videoconferencing, etc. works
02:01:06 <kmc> look up SIP protocol
02:01:18 <kmc> i don't know much but i can spout some acronyms
02:01:26 <spirity> I am lacking in the acronyms
02:01:51 <shachaf> Session Initiation SIP Protocol
02:02:03 <spirity> also I read about an open video container format designed partially by Skype that's well-suited for streaming. I can't recall the name though.
02:03:10 <spirity> yep this sounds like what I was thinking of.
02:03:44 <spirity> you mean someone's aleady thought of that, and has more expertise than me? incredible
02:04:35 <spirity> oh... youtube supports RTSP. cool.
02:04:47 <spirity> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7937903/get-rtsp-url-from-youtube
02:05:58 <kmc> maybe that's used by their mobile player or such
02:06:13 <spirity> based on the m. prefix I would say so.
02:07:00 <shachaf> kmc: Did you write lots of XML and lots of Java full of casts and things to make the Android thing?
02:07:02 <spirity> sounds like an easy way to rip youtube videos off the site.
02:07:08 <kmc> Los Angeles makes me hopeful for city transit systems in the USA
02:07:14 <kmc> it's the quintessential car city
02:07:20 <kmc> and yet they've built a lot of transit in the past 20 years
02:07:26 <kmc> good projects that people use
02:07:29 <kmc> and are building a lot more
02:07:44 <kmc> one expects this will accelerate as gas gets more expensive
02:07:54 <kmc> but perhaps the govt will keep subsidising driving until we're too fucked to fix it
02:08:00 <kmc> shachaf: what Android thing?
02:08:30 <shachaf> Weren't you doing a few Android things?
02:08:40 <shachaf> I guess that could've just been in another terminal.
02:08:44 <kmc> i got mosh to build with the android native toolchain somewhat
02:08:54 <kmc> someone else has added mosh support to a connectbot fork
02:09:04 <spirity> I know some people that livestream video conferences via Skype calls, but have a lot of connection issues.
02:09:07 <kmc> i don't know to what extent they used my work
02:09:08 <shachaf> I wrote a graphicapp and it was terrible. :-(
02:09:10 <kmc> anyway no Java or XML
02:09:13 <spirity> I wonder if I could set up something more reliable.
02:09:28 <kmc> also i did that GHC project for lol iPwn Studios way back when
02:09:32 <kmc> have they ever produced anything
02:09:40 <kmc> is Cale still "working for them"
02:09:55 <kmc> do people still cite this 3+ years vaporware company as proof that Haskell is useful for gamedev?
02:10:04 <kmc> ok, i'm not surprised :)
02:10:15 <kmc> they theoretically owe me some money
02:10:20 <copumpkin> I think ryan moved on to do something else in NYC
02:10:28 <spirity> kmc: but do they legally owe you any money?
02:10:35 <kmc> not worth it
02:10:43 <kmc> i have enough money, and i'm not a vindictive person generally
02:10:52 <kmc> i don't think they acted maliciously, just very very flakey
02:10:54 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:11:11 <kmc> spirity: unclear, i have a contract but they can argue i didn't deliver exactly what the contract says
02:11:22 <kmc> i expect it would be an annoying fight for a small sum of money, if anything
02:11:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: You should come to the west coast with ddarius.
02:11:28 * spirity has ran into these kinds of problems as a freelancer.
02:11:34 <copumpkin> shachaf: I'm going to vegas next weekend
02:11:39 <elliott> <copumpkin> I think ipwn folded up
02:11:44 <kmc> i'm fortunate enough to have other sources of money, such that i don't have to fight for this one
02:11:44 <elliott> But how will I play that game.
02:11:47 <elliott> I don't even know the name.
02:12:01 <elliott> "bloodknight", apparently.
02:12:03 <shachaf> It's from selling drugs, right?
02:12:09 <copumpkin> kmc: what happened to that 8-ball you owed me anyway?
02:12:15 <spirity> kmc: I lost something like $2000 over a contract dispute. I have no other source of income :|
02:12:31 <kmc> haha copumpkin
02:12:32 <elliott> spirity: was this the spammers
02:12:45 <kmc> i've... sold drugs, but never for a profit. i think?
02:12:53 <Sgeo_> I think the trace variable stuff is interesting
02:12:54 <elliott> aw, I can't even mix told-you-so sentiments in with my well-wishes and sympathy then :/
02:13:10 <kmc> we lose money on every vial we sell, but we make up for it in volume
02:14:07 <spirity> my internet connection is actually too shitty for mosh to do its thing properly.
02:14:36 <spirity> (its thing being intelligent echo)
02:14:53 <kmc> yeah, it wants at least one confirmation of the echo before it predicts
02:14:55 <kmc> (per line)
02:15:02 <kmc> you can disable that with mosh --predict=experimental
02:15:04 <kmc> on new enough builds
02:15:12 <kmc> then it will echo your password temporarily after you sudo :)
02:15:23 <kmc> well, the consequences are well-understood, but may be unpleasant as noted
02:15:25 <shachaf> kmc: Can I buy some drugs?
02:15:38 <kmc> also it will echo vim command letters into your document temporarily
02:15:39 <kmc> stuff like that
02:16:01 <spirity> luckily I live in a cave and shun all human company, so visible password echos probably aren't an issue.
02:16:28 <shachaf> kmc: 19:16 <Cale> shachaf: I'm still working for Ryan at the moment, though iPwn is on hiatus until he can get more funding for it. The game engine is fairly close to being done, so it would be a shame if we didn't find some way to finish it at some point.
02:16:37 <spirity> unless there's some kind of malicious screencapture AI on my system, but I think I would notice that.
02:16:46 <kmc> yeah i think it's been fairly close to being done for 2+ years
02:18:34 <spirity> a JS backend for GHC needs to be a thing.
02:18:40 <kmc> it is a thing
02:18:56 <kmc> at least, was an experimental project for a while
02:18:58 <kmc> don't know what became of it
02:19:07 <kmc> possibly bitrotted like all the other cool haskell stuff :/
02:19:15 <spirity> yes. I believe that's what happened.
02:19:24 <kmc> there was a javascript project for uhc as well
02:19:43 <shachaf> kmc: You should make a new Haskell compiler.
02:19:45 <spirity> there still is one, as far as I know.
02:20:00 <shachaf> There still is one, but there was one, as well.
02:20:02 <kmc> shachaf: i worked on one for a bit
02:20:08 <kmc> TriBeCa Haskell Compiler or THC
02:20:10 <kmc> never released
02:20:11 <spirity> ah, yes. indeed. I sometimes forget how time works.
02:20:14 <kmc> wasn't going to be very good anyway
02:21:03 <shachaf> No, I mean that you should make a good one.
02:21:26 <kmc> sounds like effort
02:21:58 <spirity> nah sounds easy. just quickly replicate all the features of GHC as a one-man project.
02:22:19 <kmc> well this doesn't involve solving any open problems in mathematics
02:22:19 <elliott> kmc: every time I think I should try writing a Haskell compiler again I remember edwardk talking about his compiler stuff
02:22:21 <kmc> therfore it is trivial
02:22:25 <elliott> and I give up automatically because how can you compete
02:22:35 <kmc> by that logic you should give up on life though
02:22:38 <edwardk> i don't spend much time on it
02:22:43 <kmc> cause edwardk has done everything ;)
02:22:45 <edwardk> so you have plenty of time to get ahead
02:22:55 <shachaf> elliott: You should use "edwardk's compiler stuff"!
02:23:03 <shachaf> Didn't he release the type checker?
02:23:07 <kmc> i still really want to see a tracing JIT for Haskell
02:23:39 * spirity wants a structural typing extension in haskell.
02:23:46 <elliott> hey, I forgot edwardk was in here
02:23:53 <elliott> how can I talk about anyone behind their back if they are in here!!!
02:23:56 <elliott> everybody but kmc, get out
02:24:03 <shachaf> elliott: Better go to #thatotherchannel.
02:24:17 <edwardk> kmc: likewise. ed yang expressed some interest in it, but he seems to have been distracted
02:24:18 <elliott> apparently #thatotherchannel exists
02:24:29 <spirity> #esoteric-portalchess (is that what I named it?)
02:24:32 <kmc> edwardk: i too am distracted
02:25:09 <shachaf> Maybe you're not in Ireland anymore.
02:25:15 <edwardk> i've been toying with turbohaskell a bit lately, mostly because i'm currently rewriting our compiler for ermine, and the design is very similar to THC
02:25:20 <shachaf> It's pronounced the same way anyway.
02:25:23 <kmc> I'm in Slough (please hold throwing of rotten vegetables until the end)
02:25:30 <edwardk> kmc: so what prompted the globe trotting?
02:25:41 <elliott> kmc is on the run for selling drugs at a loss
02:25:46 <shachaf> edwardk: Globe trotting needs prompting?
02:25:54 <kmc> today i walked around London
02:25:57 <elliott> (it's illegal to sell things for a loss in the US)
02:25:59 * shachaf ought to do some globe trotting.
02:26:03 <kmc> i rode the Emirates Air Line, not to be confused with the Emirates Airline
02:26:52 <kmc> edwardk: my friend was putting together a trip to some cool places, and i haven't traveled internationally in too long
02:26:57 <kmc> spirity: like a G6?
02:27:20 <kmc> you can rent a private cabin on the Emirates Air Line for £86
02:27:34 * spirity wants a private log cabin.
02:27:39 <kmc> (this is like a ski lift thing that takes a couple minutes to go over the Thames River)
02:27:46 <kmc> i don't know if it comes with champagne
02:28:26 <shachaf> Should I drink some champagne in a few days when I can legally do it?
02:28:40 <shachaf> I don't tend to like carbonated things so I probably wouldn't like it.
02:28:41 <spirity> you can't partake in the joy of human aviation without a log cabin and champagne.
02:28:58 <shachaf> spirity: The Emirates Air Line is not an airline.
02:29:11 <kmc> shachaf: champagne is ok
02:29:12 <spirity> oh, that's very confusing.
02:29:16 <kmc> lots of boozes are ok
02:29:18 <spirity> I got confused, like kmc told me no to.
02:29:24 <spirity> shachaf: what's the drinking age where you live?
02:29:35 <kmc> spirity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Air_Line_(cable_car)
02:30:13 <kmc> congrats to both of you
02:30:18 <shachaf> spirity: I turn 21 in 3 days!
02:30:38 <spirity> feel free to celebrate my birthday by sending me alcohol from your native country (can you even do that?)
02:30:43 <shachaf> Actually I've been able to legally drink for years.
02:31:03 <elliott> now i know how old shachaf is
02:32:03 <spirity> so I might just use this nick forever.
02:33:13 <shachaf> HEY EVERYONE, elliott WILL BE 17 IN PRECISELY 1 MONTH
02:33:22 <shachaf> WHICH HE PROBABLY HAS, COME TO THINK OF IT
02:33:31 <shachaf> BUT HE SAID HE WAS 16 ON 2011-08-22
02:33:35 <spirity> shachaf: also your, elliott's, and my nicks also all have the same length.
02:33:42 <spirity> this is a good property for a nick to have.
02:34:14 <shachaf> spirity: What, being the same length as "shachaf"?
02:34:24 <shachaf> Having the same letters as "shachaf" is also good.
02:34:35 <spirity> it makes conversation better in that context.
02:34:47 <spirity> similarly having the same length as edwardk's nick or pikhq_'s nick is a good property.
02:35:11 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
02:35:28 <edwardk> the funny thing is even when shachaf is typing in all caps on the channel i still hear him in my head with his quiet little in-person voice =P
02:35:51 <shachaf> edwardk: Ugh, you hear that voice?
02:36:17 <kmc> it's weird to think that elliott is that young
02:36:22 <kmc> in my mind he's a jaded old man by me
02:36:32 <kmc> where by old man i mean still quite young
02:36:44 <shachaf> edwardk: That voice goes away after I've known someone for a bit.
02:36:50 <spirity> you should imagine my voice with the sultry baritone of a radio host.
02:36:57 <spirity> because that would corresponding well with my real voice.
02:37:12 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, oerjan isn't a jaded old (hu)man?
02:37:24 <elliott> oerjan is 14 (oerjan is actually like 40 or something i think)
02:37:31 <elliott> it would be really weird if oerjan was 14
02:40:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: Did you know elliott = ehird?
02:40:58 <kmc> shachaf: it's weird that you quote me quoting a movie
02:41:03 <kmc> and that you remember i said that
02:42:09 <shachaf> <kmc> <shachaf> self-identifying considered harmful
02:42:54 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/09/27
02:45:02 <Sgeo_> The Tcl solution to "I don't like global variables" seems to be namespaces
02:45:14 <kmc> namespaces are great
02:45:27 <kmc> not exactly a substitut for lexical scope though
02:46:53 <shachaf> kmc: Lexical scope is pretty great.
02:47:04 <elliott> namespaces suck, also variables suck, also programming sucks
02:47:10 -!- elliott has left ("and this channel sucks!").
02:47:21 <kmc> he got us there
02:48:04 <shachaf> He's certainly old and jaded.
02:49:13 <constant> I love^W the people that say "global variables are bad" so... "I'll just stick them all into one singleton class"
02:49:31 <kmc> but it's a Design Pattern!
02:50:46 <copumpkin> the unsafePerformIO . newIORef pattern!
02:51:13 <zzo38> copumpkin: I also hate that one.
02:51:25 <copumpkin> kmc hated it so much he made a library for doing it
02:51:33 <kmc> and then another library for avoiding it
02:51:41 <shachaf> What's the another library?
02:51:44 <zzo38> What kind of library for doing it, and what kind of library for avoiding it?
02:51:46 <Sgeo_> By sticking the variable in C?
02:51:59 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/global-lock
02:52:09 <shachaf> What's the library for doing it?
02:52:22 <shachaf> The whole thunk blackhole thing.
02:52:34 <zzo38> I made up a package called "extensible-data" which allow you to define fields wherever you want and it does not require IO
02:52:38 <kmc> i lost a lot of faith in Haskell as a production language when i learned that this widespread trick has been broken for a long time and nobody even noticed
02:52:48 <zzo38> (That includes define fields in different modules)
02:52:51 <kmc> it's not an extremely rare race condition either
02:52:56 <shachaf> kmc: Does the problem actually come up in practice?
02:53:14 <kmc> i ran into it in something i was doing
02:53:21 <kmc> copumpkin: yeah
02:53:23 <zzo38> What would you think of the "extensible-data"?
02:54:44 <zzo38> With Data.Extensible.Product, you have something like a record type where the fields are defined anywhere including in any number of other modules which do not need to know each other, and the fields do not even have to be exported by that module if that is the only module using those fields of the record.
02:55:29 <spirity> shachaf: lexical scoping is great for most variables, but I manage to find uses for dynamic scoping in perl that reduce the amount of code I need to write.
02:57:01 <zzo38> There are default values, and the module which defines the record type also defines what type the default values depend on. (The types of the fields are define in the module defining those fields, though.)
02:57:58 <spirity> kmc: are you familiar with lens-families?
02:58:20 <spirity> I may or may not write a quasiquoter to completely redesign record syntax so that it automatically uses them.
02:59:00 <Sgeo_> I'm wondering if Tcl's love of global variables in namespaces should be enough to keep me away or not
02:59:39 <shachaf> kmc: You know lenses, right?
02:59:44 <kmc> i know about lenses
02:59:48 <kmc> i've seen edwardk's lenses package
03:00:02 <shachaf> There's a new lenses package which edwardk says is better than the old lenses package.
03:00:10 <edwardk> well, at least the approach is better
03:00:13 <edwardk> not sure about the package ;)
03:00:22 <shachaf> edwardk: Eh, lens packages are throwaway.
03:00:41 <edwardk> i bundled the 12 lines i needed into my physics package directly, so i agree ;)
03:01:10 <edwardk> the nice thing about the van laarhoven lens families is that it doesn't matter if you actually use the library, since everything is compatible
03:01:51 <zzo38> Yes, now I know van Laarhoven lenses
03:01:55 <Sgeo_> I wonder how easy/difficult it would be to do some sort of lens thing in Tcl
03:02:01 <lambdabot> Haskell pastebin: http://hpaste.org/
03:02:36 <edwardk> is pretty much all you need to use them
03:02:45 <kmc> gotta sleep though
03:02:57 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sun Jul 22 23:03:33 2012
03:03:05 <spirity> edwardk: do you have any ideas for record syntax/semantics that would make use of Laarhoven lenses?
03:03:06 <shachaf> I guess that won't tell me much.
03:03:13 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Jul 23 04:04:49
03:03:17 <kmc> shachaf: my IRC client is in UTC-4 but i'm in UTC+1
03:03:25 <edwardk> spirity: the SORF/DORF issue is largely orthogonal to them, so you can use them with either
03:03:31 <zzo38> Can you make van Laarhoven lenses from other categories?
03:03:42 <edwardk> spirity: you do lose multi-field polymorphic update but thats fairly minor
03:03:50 <edwardk> i have no intuition for the laws for them there
03:03:50 <kmc> elliott standard time
03:03:51 <spirity> shachaf: how does lambdabot figure that out?
03:04:01 <kmc> 23:03 lambdabot [~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com] requested CTCP TIME from kmc:
03:04:21 <shachaf> spirity: Careful analysis of your activity in the logs.
03:04:40 <edwardk> its just doing: /ctcp kmc time
03:05:08 <kmc> which in turn is something like /msg kmc ^ACTCP TIME^A
03:05:17 <kmc> where the ^A is an actual 0x01 character
03:05:31 <kmc> (yeah, byte.)
03:05:45 <spirity> 7-bit ascii character, technically.
03:05:45 <kmc> god help you if you set your IRC client to UTF-16
03:05:49 <shachaf> Which in turn is PRIVMSG :kmc ^ACTCP TIME^A
03:06:02 <shachaf> The IRC protocol is specified in bytes.
03:06:13 <kmc> but iS CTCP specified in bytes?
03:06:23 <kmc> sadly i do not care at the moment
03:06:31 <kmc> but perhaps tomorrow
03:07:19 <shachaf> Accoridng to http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/ctcpspec.html it looks like it's a byte.
03:08:40 <spirity> edwardk: oh, hm, DORF is a lot like structural typing.
03:09:29 <spirity> because you can constrain types based on what record fields are accessible.
03:09:32 <edwardk> the main thing you get out of the new polymorphic lens support is independence from actually caring what the lens library is, because you can compose them with Prelude (.) and id, and build them with the Prelude's Functor class
03:10:09 <shachaf> edwardk: Well, you sort of had that with (Control.Category..) and Control.Category.id before.
03:10:27 <edwardk> you did. but now you can compose them with getters, setters, multilenses, partial lenses, etc. directly
03:10:51 <edwardk> (1 :+ 2, 3) ^. fstLens . getting magnitude
03:11:14 <edwardk> without any MPTC magic, etc.
03:13:32 <edwardk> actually kind of liking lenses in this toy physics engine
03:14:23 <edwardk> and things like quadrance (quat^.ijk)
03:15:02 <shachaf> edwardk: If ddarius moves out here, you'll have to admit that the west coast is the place to be.
03:15:57 <edwardk> the east coast still has one thing going for it… i have employment over here ;)
03:19:29 <spirity> edwardk: oh nevermind. if I'm understanding correctly SORF without the proxy type (using only the String kinded field name parameter) would act like structural typing, but DORF uses a proxy type that obeys module scoping rules.
03:21:58 <spirity> I guess that's better overall. It lets you hide fields.
03:38:06 -!- copumpkin has quit.
03:39:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:51:35 -!- elliott has joined.
03:52:02 <oerjan> WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE REAL ELLIOTT
03:52:04 <elliott> edwardk: I remember you complaining about van Larravhrvoheorvn lens performance -- are the lens families better or do you just not care any more? :)
03:52:15 <edwardk> actually i was wrong about their performance
03:52:36 <edwardk> they turned out to have the same performance advantages as the store ones i liked
03:52:52 <elliott> I don't really like the lens families because their type signatures are so complex. :(
03:53:11 <edwardk> i don't like the signatures used by 'lens-families' per se
03:53:29 <edwardk> the haskell 98 version i think is misguided
03:53:53 <elliott> it's still four parameters (IIRC?) rather than two with the unportable one, right?
03:54:13 <edwardk> well, only if you need polymorphism, keep in mind, you can write a conventional lens and compose it with them
03:54:37 <edwardk> type Lens a b = forall f. Functor f => (b -> f b) -> a -> f a -- and you're done
03:54:57 <edwardk> i have lots of those mixed and matched with lens families
03:55:00 <elliott> But nobody is going to do that, because why would you define a less general form when you can just use the full thing?
03:55:09 <edwardk> well, when i have something like
03:55:19 <edwardk> real :: Lens (Complex a) a
03:55:25 <edwardk> that is a Lens, not a LensFamily
03:55:31 <edwardk> so you can use the less general signature
03:55:39 * elliott is dubious of the advantages of composing setters and getters, personally, but polymorphic update *is* nice.
03:55:52 <edwardk> the modifiers are really handy
03:56:05 <edwardk> and these compose with multilenses and partial lenses as well
03:56:11 <zzo38> What does it make if the Functor constraint is replaced with a different class?
03:56:29 <edwardk> zzo38: with Pointed you get partial lenses, with Applicative you get 'multilenses'
03:57:10 <edwardk> i'm less fond of those two abstractions personally
03:57:16 <elliott> edwardk: type LensFamily cls a b c d = forall f. cls f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b
03:57:35 <elliott> nobody tell /r/haskell or they'll rewrite Prelude to use that
03:57:53 <edwardk> type Family p a b c d = forall f. p f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b is how i'd probably write it
03:58:13 <elliott> should probably call it "Thing" instead
03:58:17 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes of course usually you just want to have Functor there but nevertheless it can be made with others too
03:58:27 <elliott> I wonder what happens for cls = Comonad.
03:58:52 <edwardk> well, the thing that are more specific than Functor are when you start getting funny interactions with the lens laws
03:59:12 <zzo38> elliott: I was thinking something similar. I do not know if it can do anything special with duplicate and extract in this case
03:59:35 <edwardk> I suppose an Apply gets you a non-empty multilens
04:00:30 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes, well, I can see things of that type will not always be a proper lens, but is it possible to define lens laws working with another class?
04:00:31 <elliott> edwardk: btw, is the original Functor construction actually van Laarhoven's? I associate "van Laarhoven lenses" with exists r. a <-> (b,r)
04:01:09 <edwardk> elliott: twan defined the functor based ones, but he decided he preferred the isomorphism lenses
04:01:13 <zzo38> And what happen even if the class does not have Functor as a superclass?
04:01:35 <edwardk> zzo38: without Functor as a superclass you'd be hard pressed to comply with the lens laws ;)
04:02:01 <elliott> I like the isomorphism ones. But they seem to be fairly useless in that you end up just making Store-based lenses and converting them to that type.
04:02:16 <edwardk> the isomorphism ones are nice for expository purposes, but they are too much of a bitch to use
04:02:28 <elliott> What if you use Contravariant?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
04:02:37 <edwardk> elliott: go knock yourself out ;)
04:03:35 <zzo38> What are the isomorphism ones?
04:04:24 <edwardk> newtype Lens a b = forall c. Lens (Iso a (b, c))
04:05:18 <edwardk> see its use in the examples in bound
04:05:30 <zzo38> I suppose then it is a proper lens if it is isomorphism
04:05:54 <edwardk> copumpkin: not using hypsics, writing part of a rigid body physics solver that lets me work purely functionally over the world state
04:06:28 <zzo38> Do you have anything for ephemeris with Haskell?
04:06:30 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/prelude-extras/0.1/doc/html/Prelude-Extras.html
04:06:35 <shachaf> I like how that says "Documentation".
04:07:16 <edwardk> Eq1 is a higher rank version of Eq
04:07:27 <zzo38> O, you have Prelude.Extras and I have Prelude.Generalize
04:07:28 <edwardk> similarly Show1 and Read1, etc.
04:07:34 <elliott> edwardk: Are # suffices really Haskell 98?
04:07:45 <edwardk> elliott: yeah on operators they are
04:08:16 <edwardk> the extension just allows them to apply to normal identifiers and (# #)'s
04:08:25 <edwardk> they are otherwise a valid operator char
04:08:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
04:08:56 <zzo38> Is Prelude.Extras compatible with Prelude.Generalize?
04:09:06 <edwardk> > let ( # ) = (+) in 1 # 2
04:09:13 <edwardk> i have no idea what Prelude.Generalize is =P
04:09:22 <elliott> it's one of zzo38's exciting packages
04:09:45 <edwardk> it doesn't seem like there is any reason for a conflict
04:09:55 <edwardk> as long as you use Eq and Ord like the Prelude does
04:10:11 <zzo38> edwardk: It make many things generalize such as filter for MonadPlus and tail for MonadLogic.
04:10:24 <elliott> edwardk: Have you seen extensible-data?
04:10:38 <edwardk> Prelude.Extras just defines higher rank versions of Eq, etc. syb-extras defines Data1 to go with Typeable1, etc.
04:10:54 <zzo38> And things such as maybeToList and listToMaybe are instead use convList from any Foldable to any Alternative
04:11:06 <elliott> edwardk: You know more notation?
04:11:07 <ion> Instead of everyone writing an incompatible Prelude replacement, how about we implement an incompatible Prelude replacement generator to get any number of them easily?
04:11:13 <elliott> extensible-data is more notation: the package!
04:11:14 <spirity> I still have very little visual feedback in irssi over mosh.
04:11:41 <spirity> once my message exceeds the input buffer width it starts to slow down, because mosh won't attempt to predict anything with control sequences being sent.
04:11:43 <ion> @hackage extensible-data
04:11:44 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extensible-data
04:11:48 <spirity> but --predict=experimental is too... experimental.
04:11:51 <edwardk> wow that strikes me as a remarkably bad idea =)
04:12:06 <spirity> maybe I type too fast for the internet.
04:12:26 <zzo38> What does --predict=experimental mean?
04:12:45 <spirity> it means "always attempt to predict local echo regardless of any control sequences that you receive"
04:12:54 <shachaf> elliott: more notation is a package now?
04:13:04 <shachaf> I guess that's more notation, but with less notation.
04:13:05 <spirity> so when I resize my window (which happens often in xmonad) my echo will be halfway in the output buffer, for a few seconds.
04:13:48 <zzo38> What would you think about extensible-data package?
04:14:17 <shachaf> hear notation see notation do notation
04:14:58 <spirity> --predict=always seems to work pretty well, until my message exceeds the input buffer width (which happens often in xmonad)
04:15:08 <spirity> maybe my server just has really bad bandwidth..
04:15:45 * spirity talks more about stuff that no one else cares about.
04:16:08 <zzo38> spirity: I read it anyways.
04:17:06 <ion> Well, i use mosh with success. I assumed you have a sucky 3G link clientside, but the issue being on the server sounds very strange.
04:17:34 <spirity> it's more likely my terrible ISP.
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04:19:48 <spirity> my average download rate is something like 3 mbps
04:20:06 <spirity> on a home wireless connection
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04:21:24 <zzo38> spirity and kallisti_ both has same username and also both has same realname?
04:22:09 <spirity> it might seem as though kallisti copied his irssi config onto his server and is using that, but don't be fooled.
04:22:14 <oerjan> there is no doubt about it. they must be - LONG LOST EVIL TWINS
04:22:45 <oerjan> (yes, both are evil. you've got a problem with that?)
04:22:49 <spirity> kallisti is in EST, therefore we are different people.
04:23:23 <spirity> (actually does IRC use my IPs location or does it pull from locale settings?)
04:23:32 <spirity> IP location would probably be in CEST or something.
04:23:44 <spirity> timezone settings on the local machine are UTC.
04:23:48 <zzo38> Probably it decides timezone by the system timezone setting isn't it?
04:23:56 <ion> The TZ variable with a fallback to /etc/timezone or something like that.
04:24:54 <spirity> mosh suddenly got much better at echo, with no appreciable difference in clientside latency.
04:27:40 <zzo38> Do you know if any exist MML for Csound? The numeric score format would seem difficult to write music.
04:29:55 <spirity> I haven't used csound much
04:32:04 <zzo38> I also haven't used csound much, but I have done a little bit.
04:33:30 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing a MML for Impulse Tracker, and you can view the git repository if you want to.
04:34:50 <zzo38> (Impulse Tracker is DOS program, ModPlug Tracker is Windows program, ITMCK should work in any operating system supporting GNU C compiler.)
04:36:53 <zzo38> Maybe I should include a command #MEGAZEUX in a later version of ITMCK, which makes the syntax closer to MegaZeux's PLAY command. Impulse Tracker format is one of the formats that MegaZeux can play, so if someone want to write a background music for MegaZeux they may prefer to use the same syntax as sound effects do.
04:37:32 <spirity> does anyone know the purpose of a value attribute for a submit input in an HTML form?
04:37:45 <zzo38> spirity: To display the text, I think?
04:37:58 <zzo38> It is also sent to the server if that submit button is selected.
04:37:59 <spirity> I thought that was the inner text node's job.
04:38:28 <spirity> so if you don't specify a name for the submit button then nothing is sent in the POST request?
04:38:37 <spirity> this would be the behavior I want.
04:38:55 <zzo38> spirity: If no name is set, then the other fields are still sent but the submit button value is not sent.
04:39:15 * spirity has no idea why you'd want to send a name=value pair for the submit button.
04:39:25 <zzo38> If you set a name of the submit button, then the name and value of the submit button selected will be sent together with other form fields, but not other submit buttons.
04:39:39 <zzo38> spirity: Probably so that you can know which submit button is selected if there is more than one.
04:39:55 <spirity> I typically only see one submit button.
04:43:20 <zzo38> Did you read what I have recorded the Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing?
04:43:49 <spirity> can't say I have. I've been busy procrastinating my actual work.
04:44:41 <zzo38> I have written a character background story too, by now. My character was in a slavery and then escaped when the game starts
04:45:09 <spirity> I'd like to find a good IRC channel for tabletop roleplaying, but I don't know where I'd find one.
04:45:30 <spirity> it would be very easy to manage character sheets via an IRC bot, perhaps with a web interface.
04:46:13 <spirity> I know how to implement this with the WoD system, but I'm unfamiliar with other tabletop systems.
04:46:21 <spirity> so I don't know what's required to make the interface easy to use in those systems.
04:46:36 <zzo38> I don't like to use it with a web interface
04:46:47 <spirity> it would be a convenience, integrated into the IRC bot.
04:46:58 <spirity> not everyone likes command line interfaces.
04:47:07 <zzo38> Is better if you need not open up the web browser and IRC at the same time
04:47:26 <spirity> there shouldn't be a need, it's simply a graphical interface for people who like those things.
04:47:42 <spirity> though I can't imagine what writing a background story would look like via IRC.
04:47:52 <spirity> you'd need some kind of editor I feel.
04:47:59 <zzo38> spirity: Write text, sprunge, and paste.
04:48:01 <spirity> maybe a simple text file upload mechanism.
04:48:43 <zzo38> spirity: Such as sprunge, for example. Sprunge can be used without any web browser, it is mainly used by the command-line interface, although you can use a web browser too if you prefer.
04:50:12 <spirity> cat file | sprunge | xclip
04:50:13 <zzo38> For RPG playing IRC I may prefer something like the "play-by-mail" system, but much faster, and you can use common text-adventure-games abbreviations such as I, X, L, N, S, E, and W.
04:50:22 <spirity> if I used a proper script instead of an alias I could have it support command line arguments as well as stdin.
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04:50:33 <zzo38> spirity: Yes, like that.
04:50:56 <spirity> I'm not familiar with I and X
04:51:06 <spirity> I'm mostly familiar with MUD idioms.
04:51:41 <zzo38> I wrote a proper script for sprunge on Windows, to send a file you receive from stdin (although you can use < redirection too), to receive a file you use the command-line parameter giving the code (four letters) and then it go to stdout.
04:51:48 <zzo38> spirity: I = inventory, X = examine
04:52:14 <spirity> oh right I'm familiar with i
04:52:25 <spirity> I wasn't really considering implementing a full text adventure style game
04:52:38 <spirity> I was thinking more free-form style RP.
04:53:01 <spirity> you make a room, bot joins the room, you can roll via dice commands that are integrated into the character sheet system.
04:53:02 <zzo38> spirity: Yes it is free-form style including what I meant, simply these abbreviations would be understood by the game master manually.
04:53:18 <zzo38> And no bots, referee rolls all the dice, same as play-by-mail.
04:53:34 <spirity> by the gamemaster? why not just use... english, to communicate movements.
04:53:35 <zzo38> But unlike play-by-mail it is possible to ask if you want to deliberately fail any saving throw.
04:53:55 <zzo38> spirity: You can use English too, whatever text you want, but you can also use abbreviations if you commonly use it
04:53:55 <spirity> or your favorite natural language of choice.
04:54:58 <spirity> zzo38: the bot would exist to facillitate dice rolling. it would be very similar to a traditional tabletop game but with all the math done for you.
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04:55:15 <spirity> you just specify the roll via character attributes
04:55:20 <spirity> or you can use numbers if you want
04:55:21 <zzo38> spirity: I understand; some IRC servers also have a GS command to do dice rolling and math.
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04:55:27 <zzo38> However I was using the play-by-mail system.
04:55:43 <zzo38> (Well, like play-by-mail, but much faster if it is IRC.)
04:55:54 <zzo38> (You can combine IRC with normal play-by-mail too.)
04:55:56 <spirity> zzo38: not only that but it would allow you to specify attributes of players without knowing what they are. This way you could effectively play gamemaster-less games.
04:56:08 <spirity> nick.dexterity + nick.firearms diff 7
04:56:13 <spirity> for example, using WOD nomenclature.
04:56:52 <zzo38> Have you seen my Dungeons&Dragons recordings?
04:56:59 <spirity> so you can initiate rolls without any knowledge of the players attributes (though you could probably guess if they're bad or good based on the results)
04:57:14 <spirity> zzo38: I believe you already asked that, and I already answered that I haven't.
04:58:05 <spirity> I was also thinking you could set up a permission system, which allows individual players to set up ho they want their attributes to be usable by other players
04:58:12 <spirity> this allows you to give permission to designated gamemaster, or to anyone in your game
04:58:24 <spirity> and prevents other players from guessing your attributes via repeated dice rolls.
04:58:35 <zzo38> Yes that is one way.
04:58:42 <spirity> the idea is that you can eliminate the need for gamemaster while still having security features.
04:58:57 <spirity> also my bot checks registration with network services, so that you can't use nick changees to exploit this system.
04:59:29 <zzo38> Most of role-playing-game won't work so well without gamemaster, I think. If you do have gamemaster, you need no bot, no registration, because you can use play-by-mail system.
04:59:43 <spirity> I've played roleplaying games without a gamemaster using a similar dicerolling system, and it works very well.
04:59:50 <spirity> though it requires good players.
04:59:56 <spirity> that can create a story without someone guiding it.
05:00:00 <zzo38> Yes, it would require good players I think.
05:00:07 <spirity> it also requires that you have some sort of player antagonist.
05:00:20 <spirity> there needs to be some challenge that isn't contrived.
05:00:25 <zzo38> And I think I prefer the play-by-mail system (where the referee (= gamemaster) rolls all the dice)
05:00:38 <spirity> that's nice. the drawback of this kind of system is that most of the rolls are public.
05:00:44 <spirity> secret rolls have their place.
05:01:20 <zzo38> Yes play-by-mail (fast or slow) would have all rolls secret. Player can still roll a dice if they want to decide their action at random, but that is all.
05:01:54 <spirity> I think there would be a way to do secret rolls, provided you're playing with a gamemaster
05:02:02 <spirity> really the idea is to make the system completely flexible so that your group can play however you want.
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05:02:32 <spirity> so there could be a "secret roll" command, which privmsgs the roller. This allows the roll to be publically announced, but the result unknown.
05:02:41 <spirity> so that players know a roll was actually made.
05:03:23 <zzo38> Yes, whatever you prefer.
05:03:58 <spirity> also with a simple lambdabot-like messaging system it would be pretty easy to emulate play-by-email.
05:04:00 <zzo38> I have made up some of "Icosahedral RPG" system which is my own ruleset. It has many things differently from other systems. For example, multimanas form a ring and there is a partial ordering on them, etc
05:04:23 <zzo38> spirity: It does not have to be email, it can be normal mail too.
05:04:40 <spirity> zzo38: would you be interested in implementing the ruleset within my bot, once I have a sensible system for it?
05:05:03 <zzo38> spirity: I don't know.
05:05:07 <spirity> I haven't decided on a design that's general enough to accomodate many systems
05:05:11 <spirity> the bot itself would be perl though.
05:05:17 <spirity> since I already have a lot of nice code I can reuse
05:05:25 <spirity> including a sandbox similar to HackEgo's
05:05:41 <zzo38> O, well, since it isn't Haskell it might not do some of the things in Icosahedral RPG
05:06:03 <spirity> yeah, I wanted to make a Haskell bot but at this point the perl bot has a lot of features that I don't really feel like re-implementing
05:06:13 <spirity> but the ability to do sane concurrency would be a plus, if I were to port everything to a Haskell bot.
05:06:27 <zzo38> (You don't need Haskell to play this game, you can play just as well without a computer, but the game uses a lot of mathematical structures, and Haskell can do mathematical structures.)
05:06:43 <spirity> I'm sure perl can do mathematical structures too
05:06:53 <zzo38> spirity: Yes, I believe you.
05:07:16 <spirity> zzo38: what do you think about dogless?
05:07:23 <spirity> I've got some incoming changes to how it works.
05:07:31 <zzo38> spirity: Describe.
05:07:47 <spirity> zzo38: it's the dupdog-based language I described earlier.
05:07:55 <spirity> I can paste the interpreter code again if you'd like.
05:08:02 <zzo38> spirity: O, yes, I have looked at it. But I forget.
05:08:04 <spirity> I'll need to write up a spec eventually.
05:08:15 <spirity> but I was thinking of changing the way the > and < commands work
05:08:18 <zzo38> You should write up the spec
05:08:26 <spirity> so that they work on arbitrary commands rather than just the substition commands
05:08:40 <spirity> using a command without < or > signifies a change to the entire source string
05:08:51 <spirity> and < and > limit the change to the "left side" or the "right side" of the ] marker.
05:09:03 <spirity> so <? would reverse everyting on the left side of the ] marker
05:09:08 <zzo38> spirity: O, yes, I remember by now. Yes I think it is OK.
05:09:08 <spirity> ? would reverse the entire program resource.
05:09:41 <spirity> having a distinction between the left side and right side of the program makes it much easier to write programs.
05:09:50 <spirity> because you have 2 distinguishable memory locations.
05:10:31 <spirity> as opposed to awkwardly working around yourself.
05:10:49 <spirity> (though you'll probably still have to do a lot of that, it'll just be more pleasant.)
05:11:14 <spirity> from what I can tell so far dogless makes any trivial program similar in difficulty to a quine.
05:11:21 <zzo38> Spells form a category, rounds are split into six segments, to cast a spell you require both the preparation and the mana, classes are more "generic" than D&D, arcane magic is more arcane, challenge rating is not used in this game, level adjustment (now called pseudolevels) apply to all kind of creatures, mana forms a commutative monoid with five primes...
05:11:38 <zzo38> spirity: I would think you are probably correct.
05:11:47 <spirity> zzo38: you may enjoy the MAge system from WoD. it's by far the most flexible magic system I've ever seen.
05:12:36 <spirity> there are 8 spheres, which your mage allocates points into. you typically only start out with 2 or 3 spheres available. having more points in a given sphere gives you more influence over that domain.
05:12:44 <spirity> and you can combine spheres together to form magic affects.
05:13:49 <spirity> so level 1 in Matter gives you sensory awareness of matter (you can analyse the composition of a substance, or detect hidden objects outside of plain sight). level 2 gives you minor transmutation powers. etc
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05:13:54 <spirity> up to level 5 which is complete control over that sphere.
05:14:49 <spirity> it's basically up to the gamemaster whether or not a given spell is possible given a combination of spheres, but there are recommendations and guidelines in the book.
05:14:50 <zzo38> ...standard campaign rules include: * Anyone dead ages twice as fast for purpose of resurrection spell. * Alignment entry in almost all cases for a kind of creature describes not what is actually most likely (actually all are considered equally likely), but what people tend to believe even though it is not true. * You have to know the ephemeris time.
05:15:33 <zzo38> spirity: OK, that seem interesting. My system is different from that.
05:15:36 <spirity> zzo38: I know nothing about D&D
05:15:46 <spirity> so some of the terminology you're using makes no sense to me.
05:15:53 <zzo38> Well, my system is not D&D either.
05:16:22 <spirity> zzo38: right it's just similar in flexible, without being a complex jumble of abstract math.
05:16:38 <zzo38> OK, I can see your point now.
05:16:40 <spirity> it's more accessible for the average player, but still allows emergent complexity.
05:17:56 <spirity> Matter 2 + Forces 2 would allow you to transform an object into a burst of flame or electricity, for example. The magic is supposed to be really subtle. The more you break the expectations of those around you, the more the fabric of reality backlashes against you.
05:18:18 <zzo38> When I write the Icosahedral RPG rules, it is CC-BY-SA with no attribution required and a few additional permissions (one of which allows you to remove all the additional permissions), and I would be OK if WotC published it under the name "Dungeons & Dragons hyper-advanced edition version [whatever]".
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05:19:23 <zzo38> Since of course that is permitted by the license, and I would like them to do that if they agree too.
05:20:01 <spirity> so if you can craft a spell that follows the expectations of mundane humans around you, or the general expectations of that society, then you won't be punished. the more over-the-top your magic is, the more consequences you suffer. it's a nice balancing force that prevents complete powergaming.
05:20:23 <spirity> the game is set in modern times, btw.
05:20:31 <zzo38> spirity: Yes that idea is OK.
05:20:56 <zzo38> The license additional permissions are these: * You may combine it with works licensed under GNU GPL. * Things that are unrelated to game rules (such as background story) can be licensed however you want. * You may remove all three of these additional permissions; if you do so, you must remove all three or none at all.
05:21:02 <spirity> it requires a good gamemaster to be effective.
05:21:08 <spirity> since the rules are very loose.
05:22:01 <spirity> zzo38: aditionally, you could stipulate that if only one of the permissions is kept intact, then the work must be dual-licensed under the Do Whatever The Fuck You Want license.
05:22:07 <spirity> just to make the license terms even more confusing and pointless.
05:22:25 <zzo38> The license terms are not intended to be confusing and pointless.
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05:23:32 <spirity> zzo38: how do you simultaneously revoke the provision that allows you to revoke provisions, while also invoking it?
05:24:00 <spirity> you said "all three". isn't the third one the "revoke all stipulations" stipulation?
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05:24:25 <spirity> I sense a legal loophole in your license.
05:24:36 <spirity> or rather a logical paradox.
05:25:13 <zzo38> spirity: I am not a lawyer, but it seem clear to me.
05:25:27 <spirity> it's the licensing of the derivative work, that's being altered.
05:25:27 <zzo38> Yes, the third one is the "revoke all stipulations" stipulation.
05:25:35 <zzo38> Yes, the derivative work.
05:25:54 <zzo38> You cannot affect the original work of course; only copies.
05:26:07 <spirity> a non-terminating recursive licensing conditions would be pretty great.
05:26:22 <zzo38> The license is not retroactive (it would not be suitable for free cultural works if it is retroactive).
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05:38:19 <zzo38> Have you ever written any music (on paper or computer)?
05:39:17 <spirity> it's something I'd like to do.
05:39:39 <spirity> I'm more interested in composition directly via programming languages, rather than using notation indirectly.
05:39:56 <spirity> but I guess the lines get blurry at some point. you can easily have a notation-like DSL within a more general language.
05:40:42 <spirity> but I think most notations would take aware some flexibility.
05:41:57 <zzo38> I prefer MML to write music on computer.
05:41:58 <spirity> I've toyed around with an abstraction for "tracks"
05:42:10 <spirity> that would work similarly to the way many graphical clients work, but giving you more power.
05:42:16 <spirity> they could be composed into larger tracks, etc.
05:42:27 <zzo38> Do you have any NES emulator on your computer?
05:42:48 <spirity> I had one on my Ubuntu partition before I reformatted but I don't remember its name now.
05:42:54 <zzo38> I have written some music using a version of PPMCK which I have made improvements to.
05:43:45 <zzo38> PPMCK compilse music to .NSF format which can be played in most NES emulators.
05:44:21 <spirity> would it then be possible to extract the sound produced by the emulator for postprocessing?
05:44:45 <zzo38> If you just want the audio output, then yes it would be possible.
05:45:03 <spirity> yes, I think it would be nice to have a NES audio emulator.
05:45:16 <spirity> that's what all the chiptune hipsters are into these days.
05:45:26 <zzo38> But it may also be possible to just record the values placed into the registers and then emulate the NES audio using Csound.
05:45:50 <spirity> I'm sure there's a more direct method but that would require me to actually research things.
05:46:01 <spirity> like how the NES audio synth works.
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05:46:40 <spirity> actually I'm almost positive there's an existing VST plugin that emulates a NES.
05:46:41 <zzo38> There are also audio expansion chips (used only in Japanese cartridges), such as VRC6, VRC7, MMC5, etc
05:46:55 <zzo38> Yes there are VST plugins, but I want a Csound orchestra to do so.
05:47:39 <spirity> I don't know much about it internally.
05:48:05 <spirity> it seems to integrate poorly with existing GUIs
05:48:15 <spirity> it just makes a new window for the plugin. seems like it disrupts workflow a bit.
05:48:41 <spirity> can you also communicate with them in a completely programmatic way?
05:49:02 <zzo38> Csound doesn't have that problem. Although you can create GUIs with Csound, you don't need them.
05:49:14 <spirity> also VST requires MIDI input
05:49:43 <spirity> oh nevermind that's been patched.
05:49:56 <spirity> you can input raw audio now
05:49:59 <zzo38> Csound can also interact with MIDI, as well as VST, but you don't need that.
05:50:10 <spirity> yes I'm aware of what Csound is capable of.
05:50:25 <spirity> I just don't really like the language itself.
05:50:33 <zzo38> What do you dislike about it?
05:51:01 <spirity> it doesn't compose very well.
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05:52:13 <spirity> csound is a lot of copy/paste programming
05:52:19 <zzo38> You could use it with Haskell functions that write the Csound codes I suppose.
05:53:43 <spirity> csound is very mature, more mature than any Haskell library I could produce.
05:54:00 <spirity> the physical modelling opcodes are very nice.
05:54:15 <Vorpal> what is the current discussion about?
05:54:27 <zzo38> I could try to make up something with Haskell that writes Csound codes. Some packages already exist for that but I could try something else too.
05:54:37 <zzo38> I could also try to allow it to work with MML.
05:54:42 <Vorpal> ah google to the rescue
05:54:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Or look on Wikipedia
05:54:54 <spirity> zzo38: csound could be a viable backend, but I'm interested in Haskell-based abstractions.
05:55:06 <spirity> using functions as continuous signals.
05:55:35 <Vorpal> what is the point of it? Synthesising?
05:55:36 <zzo38> spirity: I did think of some ideas about it earlier today.
05:55:40 <elliott> kmc: you should rewrite mosh so it's less than 1k lines of C so I can reasonable use it in this silly thing I am planning
05:55:44 <elliott> let me know when it's done!!
05:55:44 <spirity> Vorpal: signal processing. which includes that.
05:56:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of thing has a limit of 1k lines of C code?
05:56:34 <Vorpal> 1k binary sure, but 1k C code?
05:56:50 <elliott> one in which I do not want to send a maintainer a patch saying "I have this cool feature, but it adds a dependency on a mammoth C++ codebase many times the size of your own that doesn't work on one of your supported platforms"
05:56:57 <zzo38> One thing I somewhat dislike about Csound is the numeric score; MML would be better for writing music. The numeric score is OK, but it is OK for writing more low-level and MML would be better for writing some actual music.
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05:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it? I'm genuinely intrigued now
05:57:43 <spirity> Vorpal is unable to google things today.
05:57:53 <spirity> luckily we are here to recuse him.
05:58:04 <spirity> I guess "mosh" is a difficult keyword to search for though.
05:58:16 <Vorpal> spirity, I'm on a phone. It is annoying to multitask
05:58:39 <spirity> I guess I have the convenience of xmonad and 2 monitors at my disposal.
05:58:41 <zzo38> Do you watch Akagi or Kaiji manga/anime?
05:58:48 <elliott> Vorpal: and the thing I am considering writing is a streaming/spectating patch for brogue
05:58:49 <Vorpal> also the ssh tunnel to my bouncer on the phone is not working very well :/
05:59:13 <elliott> spirity: do you know what brogue is
05:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, need to check what brogue is now
05:59:30 <elliott> it is a good game, you should play it
05:59:32 <elliott> that applies to both of you
06:00:02 <Vorpal> oh that rouge like, I remember you mentioning it before
06:00:08 <spirity> elliott: you could just implement SSP in brogue
06:00:18 <spirity> which is what gives it roaming capabilities.
06:01:03 <Vorpal> also usb keyboard to the phone is amazing (which is the reason I can type so fast atm), but sadly not very convenient
06:01:22 <spirity> elliott: so brogue is a networked rogue-like?
06:01:25 <Vorpal> yay for USB OTG though
06:01:28 <elliott> spirity: it is the synchronisation I want, not the roaming
06:01:35 <elliott> spirity: no, it's not networked at all
06:01:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> rouge like <-- rogue*
06:01:51 <elliott> it's just an (exceedingly well-designed and exceptionally pretty) normal single-player roguelike
06:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I always confuse those two words
06:03:04 <elliott> spirity: <elliott> Vorpal: and the thing I am considering writing is a streaming/spectating patch for brogue
06:03:22 <spirity> elliott: I did. I meant, more specifically, what are you synchronizing about it.
06:04:31 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Trey.
06:04:34 <spirity> is it not already instantaneous?
06:04:36 -!- Trey has changed nick to copumpkin.
06:04:49 <elliott> wtf is ambiguous about "spectating"
06:04:55 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Trey.
06:04:58 -!- Trey has changed nick to copumpkin.
06:05:38 <spirity> the unmentioned details related to games I know very little about.
06:05:54 <spirity> I can't answer that question.
06:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you just broadcast the stream of tty data?
06:06:16 <Vorpal> or does it redraw partially only
06:06:36 <elliott> it isn't terminal-based (well, it has a terminal backend, but it's ugly as heck because 16 colours)
06:06:58 <spirity> elliott: I just don't see what needs to be spectated or synchronized in a game that isn't networked and probably updates nearly instantaneously with events in the game world.
06:06:59 <elliott> it displays its own (full-colour) pseudo-terminal
06:07:10 <elliott> spirity: the point is to add a feature whereby other people can spectate a game
06:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, see, if you just explain things like that we don't need to have this sort of confusion :)
06:08:07 <zzo38> Do you like the computer game I make?
06:08:09 <spirity> elliott: you could most likely rig that up with existing software, but it wouldn't be as free of latency.
06:08:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, see, if you just explain things like that we don't need to have this sort of confusion :)
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06:08:37 <spirity> just livestream via an existing website (I know twitch.tv is one site that supports video game streaming) and a screencapture program.
06:08:41 <elliott> i was going to respond to this but
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06:08:57 <Vorpal> spirity, it will look ugly
06:09:29 <spirity> most likely. unless you have an epic computer to do awesome live video encoding.
06:09:36 <Vorpal> spirity, I watch streams on twitch.tv occasionally. I can never get it to work properly above 480p. Yet I can watch youtube at 1080p. And in both cases it will look compressed
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06:10:11 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway, doing live video encoding isn't that hard on a modern computer
06:10:30 <Vorpal> I bet mine could do it, though maybe not with ultra graphics settings for some games
06:10:58 <spirity> I watch streams from professional starcraft casters. They have monster computers.
06:11:03 <spirity> so the video quality is usually pretty good.
06:11:10 <zzo38> In one game, you have to save the gibbering mouthers from the king's army by holding the second key (as in the key to open the door) as you hold a pencil.
06:11:41 <Vorpal> spirity, I'm not really interested in Starcraft, I mostly watched other stuff. Like Magicka or what not
06:11:54 <spirity> magicka? is it like.. competitive PvP?
06:12:10 <Vorpal> spirity, iirc it was coop between TotalBiscuit and Yogscast or something like that
06:12:11 <spirity> that's probably something I could get into. though last time I played Magicka they patched it so that my usual tricks didn't work as well anymore.
06:12:18 <spirity> spirity: oh I've seen that.
06:12:36 <Vorpal> talking to yourself eh
06:12:43 <spirity> we've had this conversation before, but I get pretty competitive with those kinds of games.
06:13:04 <Vorpal> I'm not a competitive player. I play games for other reasons
06:13:04 <spirity> it's supposed to be a light hearted game but the combat system is actually really complex.
06:13:23 <spirity> Magicka is stellar both in terms of storytelling and gameplay.
06:13:31 <spirity> so it's likeable for both of those reasons.
06:13:34 <Vorpal> oh yes, it is certainly a funny game
06:13:45 <Vorpal> I like the Swedish-English-made-up-whatever voice acting in it
06:13:52 <spirity> but at the same time the magic system is /good/
06:14:00 <Vorpal> as a Swede myself it is extra funny
06:14:08 <Vorpal> anyway I suck at Magicka
06:14:16 * spirity is apparently pretty good at it.
06:14:18 <Vorpal> I need a slower paced game.
06:14:26 <Vorpal> can't cast spells quick enough
06:14:34 <zzo38> In one game you have to move the white ball to stop colliding with color ball, you have to make a rectangle of four corner tiles the same color as the ball to remove them from the screen.
06:14:40 <spirity> once you have some decent spells commited to muscle memory it's just a matter of thinking in terms of those spells, rather than the individual buttons
06:14:43 <spirity> but you can improvise as well.
06:15:27 <Vorpal> spirity, my favourite game of all time is Witcher 2. What a great story that game has. I never watched Game of Thrones, but from what I heard from other people, the political intrigue part of the Witcher 2 story reminds them of that
06:15:30 <spirity> one problem the game has is that the input system annoyingly messes up if you start typing too fast. maybe it's intentional to make mindless spamming unviable.
06:15:53 <spirity> but it also makse having quick reaction times unviable as well. :(
06:16:09 <Vorpal> oh Deus Ex: Human Revolution is great too btw. I have been meaning to buy the original Deus Ex and have a go at it, from what I heard that has even better story
06:16:51 <Vorpal> spirity, I think Magicka + AutoHotKey could be an amazing way to play it for the type of gamer that I am
06:17:10 <Vorpal> look, I'm not good at quick reaction stuff.
06:17:10 <spirity> I didn't even consider that a possibility.
06:17:26 <spirity> people on PvP probably just cheat and do stuff like that.
06:17:40 <spirity> but I'd like to think that the list of possible useful spells far exceeds the number of buttons on the keyboard.
06:17:43 <Vorpal> I would only use that for the campaign if I did that
06:17:54 <spirity> ah I bet that's what why fast inputs are rejected
06:18:00 <spirity> to avoid autohotkey cheating.
06:18:05 <Vorpal> well you can insert delays into autohotkey iirc
06:18:16 <spirity> well, it balanced the playing field a bit, then.
06:18:32 <spirity> no instant cast 5-element spells.
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06:18:37 <Vorpal> anyway, I do not want to learn autohotkey, the language doesn't exactly look nice
06:19:00 <spirity> it's not nice by any tangible metric.
06:19:32 <Vorpal> also in magicka I always mix up the cast type. self,area,normal,whatever
06:19:37 <spirity> some of the new stuff they added to magicka feels cheap
06:19:43 <Vorpal> also remembering the spells is hard
06:19:53 <Vorpal> spirity, hm, does "crash to desktop" work in PvP?
06:20:04 <spirity> I don't know. I haven't played the game since PvP was added.
06:20:33 <spirity> I played it when the strongest spell in the game didn't one-shot you if you didn't use immunity shields.
06:20:51 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway I mostly play RPGs. I'm decent at stealth action games too, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
06:21:03 <Vorpal> (which is a stealth/action/RPG hybrid)
06:21:05 <spirity> I play whatever games other people around me with consoles/gaming PCs play.
06:21:27 <Vorpal> Apart from minecraft and flightsims I mostly go for single player
06:21:37 * spirity prefers multiplayer typically.
06:21:42 <Vorpal> oh and space sims. They are awesome
06:21:51 <Vorpal> like Evochron Mercenary
06:23:19 <Vorpal> spirity, do you like games like that?
06:23:35 <spirity> I don't own any consoles or a gaming PC atm
06:23:47 <Vorpal> well oolite should run on pretty much anything
06:23:53 <spirity> one game I'm looking forward to is planetside 2.
06:24:04 <Vorpal> you probably want a proper joystick though
06:24:16 <spirity> also a new smash bros game is being developed. I love that series.
06:24:24 <Vorpal> spirity, ah yes, I signed up for the beta, thinking "why not, it is F2P, might give it a try"
06:24:33 * spirity is one of the "no items final destination" people. :P
06:24:35 <Vorpal> haven't gotten a beta key yet
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06:24:46 <Vorpal> * spirity is one of the "no items final destination" people. :P <-- huh?
06:24:56 <spirity> have you played smash bros?
06:25:03 <spirity> oh. okay. well then nevermind
06:25:03 <Vorpal> I never owned a console
06:25:06 <spirity> final destination is the map that's just like...
06:25:14 <Vorpal> I played some snes and n64 games in emulators
06:25:22 <spirity> and "no items" means that you turn all the items off.
06:25:26 <spirity> so there's no random chance involved.
06:25:47 <Vorpal> chrono trigger, FF IV, Secret of Mana, Zelda ALTP, OOT, WW and so on. (the last one being gamecube)
06:26:22 <spirity> that's also typically how tournaments are played.
06:26:27 <Vorpal> spirity, hey if you ever get a PS3, play dark souls XD
06:26:44 <spirity> I've played probably the first 25% of Demons' souls.
06:26:59 <Vorpal> also nethack is an amazing game, haven't played it for ages though. I /used/ to be pretty good at it.
06:27:09 <spirity> I overleveled in the first part until I could reasonably complete that part of the game.
06:27:09 <Vorpal> probably not so good any more
06:27:35 <spirity> I used the meatcleaver build thing.
06:28:26 <Vorpal> anyway, I doubt I will get a console in the foreseeable future. I prefer gaming on a PC.
06:28:27 <spirity> meatcleaver is just a unique sword you can get. it actually counts as a "big club" type weapon.
06:29:10 <spirity> for the first section (act? chapter? I don't remember) I would just time my swing so that I one-shot most things as they approached.
06:29:30 <spirity> because I was so overleveled
06:29:33 <Vorpal> oh no, having to time combat :/
06:29:42 <Vorpal> that is why I suck at Batman: Arkham City
06:29:45 <spirity> that's like... what demons' souls /is/
06:29:56 <spirity> Batman: Arkham City almost times combat for you.
06:30:08 <Vorpal> you have to time to get any combos
06:30:17 <spirity> it's incredibly easy to never get hit and rack up absurd combos.
06:30:26 <Vorpal> for me it is really hard
06:30:36 <spirity> I never played the story mode though. just the challenge mode.
06:30:39 <spirity> where it was just pure brawling.
06:30:46 <Vorpal> ... why would you not play story mode?
06:30:54 <Vorpal> how is that less interesting than challenges?
06:31:00 <spirity> also the stealth missions from that mode were fun.
06:31:17 <spirity> I didn't own the game. I didn't have time to commit to story mode. also from what I could see the voice acting was kind of mediocre.
06:31:20 <Vorpal> the story is really good, that is the only reason I completed that game
06:31:32 <spirity> but I only saw pieces of it.
06:31:34 <spirity> from other people playing.
06:31:41 <spirity> also the ending is stupid.
06:31:51 <spirity> generic big monster boss fight, for no reason.
06:31:53 <Vorpal> I'm not very sensitive to voice acting personally
06:31:58 <Vorpal> unless it is really bad
06:32:17 <spirity> or maybe I'm thinking of arkham asylum
06:32:26 <Vorpal> yeah I think you are confusing them
06:32:39 <spirity> I definitely played the challenge mode from arkham city
06:32:40 <Vorpal> haven't played arkham asylum though
06:32:49 <spirity> and prbably saw more of the story from arkham asylum.
06:32:57 <Vorpal> never even looked at the challenges in arkham city
06:33:24 <spirity> it's great. the first time I picked it up I got a 50x combo. :D
06:33:51 <Vorpal> what is it with windows 7 and lowering the volume of vlc when you plug or unplug USB devices...
06:33:52 <spirity> the timing is not very sensitive at all. you can more or less spam buttons to get it to time itself for you.
06:34:21 <Vorpal> spirity, I played on medium, maybe you played on easy or something?
06:34:31 <Vorpal> or you are really good at that sort of combat
06:35:00 <spirity> I'm really good at smash bros, so it probably carries over into brawler type games.
06:35:29 <Vorpal> have you tried playing a story driven RPG btw?
06:36:04 <spirity> I played a few when I was younger, and still had video game systems. I don't remember much about them now though.
06:36:15 <spirity> metroid prime was a good game.
06:36:25 <Vorpal> hm, which platform was that for?
06:36:32 <spirity> there's also sequels for the wii.
06:36:39 * spirity was a nintendo kid, mostly.
06:37:00 <Vorpal> I played some snes meteroid game in an emulator, didn't really like it. Too much backtracking.
06:37:21 <Vorpal> And I grew up on classic mac OS...
06:37:29 <spirity> I played the n64 and gamecube zelda games if hat counts
06:37:47 <Vorpal> so I remember games like EV Override (2D top-down space shooter, open world, and story driven)
06:37:50 <spirity> though zelda is more like a platformer puzzle game than an RPG.
06:38:07 <Vorpal> and Avernum 1/2/3 (one of the best adventure/RPG games ever)
06:38:35 <Vorpal> spirity, zelda oot is really good yes
06:38:43 <spirity> probably as close to "story-driven RPG" as you can get.
06:38:44 <Vorpal> hm never had a chance to play any such
06:39:05 <spirity> on MUDs, actually. I've never played in person.
06:39:16 <Vorpal> ah, you must be a few years older than me
06:39:19 <spirity> but it was free-form style. you just communicated via text.
06:39:27 <itidus21> for me, good games are: super mario world, super street fighter 2, secret of mana, final fantasy 6, romance of three kingdoms (on snes not sure which version), uh i dunno mang
06:39:36 <Vorpal> secret of mana is good yes
06:39:46 <Vorpal> spirity, so you are younger than me? Huh
06:39:48 <itidus21> i played secret of mana 2 player
06:39:59 <spirity> yeah. MUDs still existed in the late 90s and early 2000s.
06:40:13 <spirity> I don't remember how I found them.
06:40:19 <Vorpal> secret of mana has a better combat system than chrono trigger but chrono trigger has a better story than secret of mana
06:40:34 <spirity> I started out with hack-n-slash style games, then I found free-form RP style games (similar to MOO and MUSH, but with a stripped down MUD-based interface)
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06:41:21 <spirity> eventually I started coding for one. So I have some experience with designing freeform text-based pen and paper interfaces.
06:41:32 <spirity> which is a funny thing to say.
06:41:37 <itidus21> to be honest i kind of tried to compile a list of games i like or find interesting, but it eventually generalized too far so that {x:x is a video game} = {x:x is interesting}
06:41:58 <spirity> itidus21: so you're saying you have no standards.
06:42:17 <itidus21> btw i don't know math well.. im just trying out set construction
06:42:17 <spirity> Vorpal: I'm very much interested in setting up a IRC-based tabletop gaming system. I was talking to zzo38 about it previously.
06:42:23 <Vorpal> I don't think any game that didn't have an interesting story ever managed to get me interested for more than a brief time period of time
06:42:25 <spirity> so if you're interested we could possibly try that out.
06:42:32 <Vorpal> spirity, hey what about Mirror's Edge?
06:42:57 <Vorpal> any assasin's creed game though?
06:43:05 <spirity> yes I've played the first 2.
06:43:21 <Vorpal> you might like Mirror's Edge. It is quite hard.
06:43:36 <spirity> there was some new game that ubisoft unveiled at E3 that's based off of that engine. it looks ridiculously cool.
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06:44:03 <Vorpal> spirity, or do you mean Dishonoured? It had some parkour iirc. Bethesda though
06:44:05 <spirity> but basically you have access to electronic devices around you, and like.. public records of people.
06:44:15 <Vorpal> don't think it had parkour?
06:44:33 <spirity> no but I could see from the alpha footage that it had a similar control interface.
06:44:46 <Vorpal> similar control interface? what do you mean?
06:44:49 <spirity> Vorpal: I'm not really sure how to describe what I mean.
06:45:01 <spirity> like you had an inventory that seemed to work similarly to the AC interface.
06:45:10 <zzo38> I like text adventure game
06:45:11 <spirity> with labelled buttons at the bottom.
06:45:13 <itidus21> an abstracted subset of reality can be embedded within virtual reality. should it be called a reality manifold? <-- i know it's silly
06:45:20 <spirity> describing what action each button does.
06:45:29 <Vorpal> spirity, I know which game you mean, but it reminded me more of Deus Ex: HR.
06:45:38 <spirity> and it's the same third-person style. I'd imagine it's a heavily derived version of that engine.
06:45:39 <Vorpal> when it came to the setting and so on
06:45:56 <spirity> since you'll be walking through urban areas. I see no reason for them to re-invent their crowd simulation stuff.
06:46:23 <Vorpal> spirity, well you didn't have to think about car traffic in the AC setting
06:46:29 <Vorpal> so you need to handle that differently at least
06:46:34 <zzo38> Do you think nobody play chess by mail anymore?
06:46:41 <spirity> it seemed derived in a very vague sense.
06:46:43 <zzo38> I have played chess by (postal) mail just a few years ago.
06:46:51 <spirity> I don't see why they would
06:47:06 <spirity> maybe if they're old and nostalgic.
06:47:23 <zzo38> I played shogi by mail too.
06:47:23 <spirity> some people have a "thing" for postage.
06:47:32 <Vorpal> spirity, if you get a good gaming PC you should definitely play Witcher 2. On the higher difficulty settings it becomes extremely hard.
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06:47:40 <spirity> Vorpal: yes I was planning on it.
06:47:42 <Vorpal> and requires quite a bit of timing
06:47:47 <itidus21> i guess postage is good because it forces things to go slow
06:47:50 <Vorpal> on easy or normal I can play it though
06:47:51 <spirity> I've read a lot about the company itself and I'm impressed with their business practices.
06:48:02 <spirity> I don't see any reason not to support them by trying out what appears to be a really great PC game.
06:48:14 <Vorpal> spirity, oh yes, they are definitely the most consumer friendly company when it comes to games out there currently
06:48:25 <Vorpal> spirity, same company that runs gog.com, which is an awesome sit
06:48:32 <spirity> Vorpal: also I've been buying humble bundles in preparation for my future gaming PC
06:48:38 <Vorpal> they make sure the games they sell on there work on modern systems
06:48:38 <spirity> the last one game with braid which I'm excited to try out.
06:48:42 <Vorpal> patching them as required
06:48:47 <spirity> it wasn't even announced that there would be braid, initially.
06:48:54 <zzo38> Usually these days I receive a local posted letter the next day, or I send one and it arrives at the recipient in the next day. Especially if you use the tricks that speed up the mail (postal hacking).
06:48:55 <Vorpal> spirity, surely braid runs well on anything
06:49:05 <spirity> Vorpal: oh. maybe. I haven't actually tried.
06:49:06 <Vorpal> spirity, I played it on the laptop I'm on atm. Intel graphics.
06:49:32 <Vorpal> 2 GB RAM. Core 2 Duo at 2.26 GHz
06:49:41 <spirity> I don't remember how a Core 2 Duo compares to i3
06:49:46 <zzo38> Read my Dungeons&Dragons stories http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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06:49:48 <spirity> also I think there are many i3's so that's not very helpful
06:50:00 <zzo38> Do you know of TeX?
06:50:15 <spirity> okay. I'll try out braid soon then.
06:50:18 <Vorpal> spirity, btw play Bastion. Awesome game. Didn't work with intel graphics on linux at least
06:50:21 <spirity> I just kind of assumed that nothing plays well on this laptop.
06:50:24 <Vorpal> haven't tried it on a low end system on windows
06:50:39 <fungot> shachaf: for many years no one for him to persist in those reforms? it is true that he was a man utterly without faith or fnord that europe could be conciliated only by the dread of the gallant spectacle which they presented to countless thousands last friday, i am sure, of my idea of reform is meant to answer in the constitution, forbids such invasion and such surrender. the constituent parts of the fabric together, was no pro
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06:51:02 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
06:51:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:51:22 <EgoBot> 41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [347]
06:51:24 <Vorpal> spirity, but yeah a lot of the humble indie bundle games should run fine on low end hardware
06:51:32 <EgoBot> 82 +++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>>---.<+.++++.--------.>.>---. [131]
06:51:39 <shachaf> !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>>---.<+.++++.--------.>.>---.
06:51:46 <spirity> Vorpal: yeah some do. Botanicula runs fine for example.
06:51:54 <Vorpal> spirity, and if you already own them, just download them and try. :) Unless you are on a sucky internet connection
06:52:00 <spirity> good game. I haven't completed it but I come back to every once in a while. it's very relaxing.
06:52:04 <zzo38> Add the fungot style from Dungeons&Dragons story recording and character background story.
06:52:20 <Vorpal> spirity, hey you should play Machinarium then too
06:52:25 <Vorpal> I think it was in an earlier bundle
06:52:36 <Vorpal> same style of game, completely different setting
06:52:38 <spirity> eventually. I don't like point and clicks very much, so I have to be in the mood and I quickly get bored.
06:52:41 <zzo38> Character background stories are in level20_backstory.tex and scenario ideas are in level20_idea.txt
06:52:44 <spirity> but they're fun to play when I am interested.
06:53:00 <spirity> I typically play very fast-paced energetic games.
06:53:21 <spirity> or slow-paced strategic games.
06:53:23 <zzo38> spirity: Do you like my computer game?
06:53:47 <Vorpal> spirity, well, when it comes to point and click, Amanita Design is in a class of their own.
06:54:10 <Vorpal> spirity, what do you think about stealth games then?
06:54:11 <zzo38> spirity: Any of them, there is fast-pace game, slow-pace, puzzle game, etc
06:54:25 <spirity> Vorpal: fun. I haven't played enough of them though. The hitman series is great.
06:54:32 <Vorpal> ah, haven't played that
06:54:37 <spirity> I played the first splinter cell but I wasn't old enough to be good at it.
06:54:46 <Vorpal> what about Deus Ex or Deus Ex: HR?
06:55:02 <spirity> zzo38: I don't recall any computer games. just the tabletop game.
06:55:17 <zzo38> Try the CGA collection: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll2.zip is part of it.
06:55:24 <spirity> I've played a metal gear solid game for the original game boy. don't recall the name.
06:55:36 <zzo38> As well as http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll1.zip
06:55:38 <spirity> haven't played any of the 3d ones.
06:56:45 <zzo38> And even http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
06:57:06 <zzo38> Any file in cgacoll2.zip overrides the older version in cgacoll1.zip and those override the older version in cgacoll.zip
06:57:29 <zzo38> These are all DOS computer games.
06:58:03 <zzo38> (So you need to have DOS or a DOS emulator on your computer to run these.)
06:58:54 <zzo38> (Alternatively, recompile them for the operating system you use, if you can figure out how; they are all written in QBASIC.)
06:59:10 <Vorpal> spirity, I kind of regret not getting the second humble indie bundle for android. I had several of the games from before already. And I wasn't planning on getting any android device at the time. Now I have a Galaxy S3
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07:01:13 <zzo38> spirity: Do you like this?
07:01:57 <spirity> zzo38: I'm probably not going to get a DOS emulator in my foreseeable lifetime.
07:02:42 <spirity> with the exception of implementing that IRC emulator sandbox that nortti- is also working on.
07:02:54 <spirity> -also (I'm not really working on it right now, but he is)
07:03:01 <pikhq_> spirity: Not even X on DOS would inspire you?
07:03:34 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why would anyone care for X on DOS? After all I have X natively
07:03:41 <spirity> but an IRC bot with a DOS emulator sandbox HackEgo-style
07:03:49 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Shits, giggles
07:04:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, Uh? I guess my brain just doesn't work that way.,
07:04:47 <zzo38> I have written a single game for the GameBoy, so if you have a GameBoy emulator you can do that one. I have also made some game on Windows, so if you have Windows you can do that too. I have also written some MegaZeux games; you need MegaZeux but it is available for most computers (including Nintendo DS).
07:05:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, have you written any games using OpenGL or DirectX?
07:05:38 <spirity> I've made a chess variant. but it probably needs a revision.
07:06:09 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I thought it was sufficient incentive.
07:06:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why would it be
07:06:50 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Because it's oddly enjoyable to IRC from DOS for 5 minutes.
07:06:51 <spirity> some peoples shits and giggles are not other peoples shits and giggles.
07:07:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, this game uses DirectX: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png
07:07:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I can't see the fun in that
07:07:51 <pikhq_> (I should note that DESQview/X also has a full TCP stack, and is usable with X's network transparency)
07:07:56 <fizzie> I've used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA9Q to IRC from DOS; that thing is pretty spiffy.
07:08:07 <zzo38> How much can you understand or guess from this screenshot?
07:08:28 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, this game uses DirectX: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png <-- Really? For what?
07:09:15 <Vorpal> better question I guess is, have you written any game that uses OpenGL or Direct3D with a perspective projection
07:09:18 <spirity> or.... drawing graphics, I'd imagine.
07:09:52 <Vorpal> spirity, well DirectX, not Direct3D... So I guess he could be using DirectSound or something
07:10:28 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure thats a mod of that tile puzzle game
07:10:38 <zzo38> No, I have not written any 3D perspective game.
07:10:46 <Vorpal> itidus21, which tile puzzle game??
07:11:20 <zzo38> I have not made any game using 3D space so it won't use 3D view either.
07:12:46 <zzo38> The game uses DirectX only because the programming language I used requires it. I don't use that programming language much anymore as it is Windows-only, slow, and proprietary.
07:13:03 <zzo38> itidus21: No, this game is not based on MESH: Hero's Hearts it is a different game.
07:13:21 <zzo38> (But it does have hearts, though)
07:13:25 <itidus21> yeah the resolution is different.. i see that now
07:13:40 <zzo38> (as can be seen from the picture)
07:15:30 <zzo38> How much of the game do you expect would be understandable just by this screenshot? What kind of guess would you make about it?
07:16:24 <Vorpal> that it is not the kind of game I want to play
07:17:15 <Vorpal> It looks incredibly boring.
07:17:54 <zzo38> Do you not like this kind of puzzle game?
07:17:59 <Vorpal> probably a puzzle game or some such.
07:18:09 <Vorpal> also the graphics looks unpolished.
07:18:24 <Vorpal> (I don't mind low-fi graphics, but this just looks kind of ugly)
07:18:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't really like puzzle games.
07:20:09 <itidus21> Vorpal: so, i figure you're reasonably smart. so this is evidence against a correlation of smart people liking puzzle games
07:20:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, yes, who claimed that
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07:21:55 <itidus21> and an embodiment whereby smart people don't inherently like ascetic graphics
07:22:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, both of those ideas are utterly silly
07:22:44 <Vorpal> what was that game... A tower defence game, was in one of the humble bundles.
07:22:54 <Vorpal> had retro style graphics, very pretty
07:23:09 <Vorpal> only played a couple of levels, because it was tower defence (urgh)
07:23:18 <zzo38> The level pictured is not particularly difficult. The more complicated ones are larger, may not all fit on the screen at once, and may include additional pieces such as star, train, bicycle, doors (open and closed), paper, web, upside-down spider, key, ghost, no-smoking sign, telephone, etc
07:23:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, the developer had "puppy" in their name I remember
07:24:04 <Vorpal> ah... Revenge of the Titans
07:24:17 <zzo38> O, and there is also lights and clocks
07:24:23 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm not worried about making sense. just exploring this thing. cos i also tend to not like puzzle games.
07:24:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, that had retro graphics with some modern elements in it (I seem to recall some particle effects)
07:25:03 <zzo38> And the cluster of balls, and scientific experiment.
07:25:17 <Vorpal> itidus21, while minecraft has outright ugly graphics IMO. Unless you use a good texture pack
07:25:33 <Vorpal> in which case it is still not amazing, but it is reasonable enough
07:26:05 <itidus21> i think that the graphics is not the primary reason you don't want to play it
07:26:11 <zzo38> Do you like the graphics of CGA Collection? (they are all low-resolution CGA graphics or text 40x25)
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07:27:10 <zzo38> The game I pictured is not the CGA Collection, though.
07:27:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, I have no idea, nor do I intend to play those games. And you asking people if they like your stuff every time something semi-relevant is being discussed is getting annoying.
07:27:29 <pikhq_> Clearly not. CGA is rather obvious.
07:28:43 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I should not always repeat myself
07:28:58 <Vorpal> hm VVVVVV. I sucked at that game. But damn was the sound track good.
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07:29:41 <Vorpal> as for the graphics, I don't think they were very good
07:30:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, did you buy the last humble bundle btw?
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07:31:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ouch, you missed out on some really awesome games
07:32:21 <Vorpal> hm why does lsusb on linux list hubs and such as being made by "Linux Foundation"?
07:32:28 <Vorpal> like: Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
07:33:06 <fizzie> CGA is only really obvious when someone's using the default palette.
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07:33:45 <Vorpal> huh, what did Gregor do
07:34:19 <fizzie> The X-green-red-brown (with a freely chosable X) isn't quite so obvious.
07:34:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Couldn't you select any 16 colours in CGA?
07:35:46 <fizzie> In most modes, you can select one of the two four-color palettes, in which only one color is freely choosable.
07:35:57 <fizzie> That's why most CGA games are so full of magenta-cyan combinations.
07:36:16 <Vorpal> I thought CGA had 16 colours...
07:36:20 <fizzie> I mean, nobody would make things look like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alleycat.png if there wasn't a technical reason.
07:36:37 <fizzie> It has a total palette of 16 colours, that's true.
07:36:42 <spirity> I fucking hate those color combinations
07:36:55 <spirity> any of the subtractive colors put together
07:37:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did they do white or black then if they only had green red, brown and X?
07:37:09 <Vorpal> because that image has both
07:37:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: The X-green-red-brown is the alternative palette, as opposed to the default one, which that one is using.
07:37:52 <fizzie> And what everyone things of if the word "CGA" is mentioned.
07:38:05 <fizzie> It's X-magenta-cyan-white, with X=black by default.
07:38:43 <fizzie> I suppose the lack of white might explain why X-red-green-brown (or X-light red-light green-yellow) is not used so much.
07:39:10 <Vorpal> so you couldn't do all 16 colours at the same time hm
07:39:10 <fizzie> (You can toggle a high intensity bit to get the light versions of everything, but that's a global choice.)
07:39:31 <Vorpal> could you switch mode while drawing? Or only during vsync?
07:39:42 <fizzie> You can do all 16 in text mode, though.
07:40:08 <fizzie> And you can switch whenever, I'm pretty sure, but I don't think there's any sort of nice raster interrupt, so you'd need to be very careful with the timing.
07:40:43 <fizzie> And it'd probably be tuned for a particular hardware combination then, which is not so good on the PC.
07:40:47 <Vorpal> or whatever you call it
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07:41:39 <fizzie> I think "raster interrupt" is the common word. Though it's a bit of a vague term.
07:42:23 <Vorpal> ouch, CGA had non-square pixels?
07:42:40 <ion> <fizzie> I suppose the lack of white might explain why X-red-green-brown (or X-light red-light green-yellow) is not used so much.
07:43:28 <itidus21> i don't know why graphics are so complicated
07:43:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Something shared with (the usual 320x200) VGA.
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07:43:52 <Vorpal> ion, not really. There are no "white" humans. Try to find a human with a skin colour of #000, you won't find any
07:44:27 <pikhq_> Mind, you won't find humans with a skin color of #000 either.
07:44:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: (Possibly because 320*200 < 2^16 but 320*240 > 2^16 and VGA video memory lives in a0000..affff.)
07:44:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also you mean #fff, writing hexdecimal with upper case letters always annoys me
07:44:52 <fizzie> pikhq_: Maybe after a particularly bad fire...
07:45:35 <Vorpal> thank god for modern graphics. No need to bother about VGA, SVGA and what not
07:45:39 <itidus21> there isn't really a good book for doing basic graphics in 2012
07:47:26 <Vorpal> also RGB or any such model is such a terrible representation of colour. It fails horrible when handling coloured light hitting a differently coloured object
07:47:27 <itidus21> fundamental graphics operations in 2012 is things like, render a bitmap so that it is visible to the user, and, render a sequence of frames while avoiding screen-tearing
07:47:51 <ion> Why does the case matter in numbers?
07:48:01 <Vorpal> ion, read the reason above
07:48:02 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Somehow I doubt RGB is meant to handle that.
07:48:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, indeed. So why do we use that to render graphics?
07:48:23 <Vorpal> you want full spectrum information
07:48:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, not very hard to do?
07:48:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: You also want things to be fast, you know.
07:48:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, you just need an artist to design the sprites and so on
07:48:50 <pikhq_> But, yes, RGB is a *terrible* model for any actual mangling of the color...
07:49:00 <pikhq_> What you want is a lab colorspace.
07:49:01 <spirity> Vorpal: it's the same reason we use PCM. it's a discrete sampling of continuous data.
07:49:11 <itidus21> Vorpal: it's just that each method of doing so has many idiosyncracies... so it is not actually possible to explain how to do it in general terms
07:49:24 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also it will sucks if we ever meet aliens.
07:50:22 <Vorpal> spirity, yes but that doesn't depend on the specific frequencies of that the human eye can see. It would work just as fine for an alien
07:50:33 <itidus21> so i guess what i would like is a guide to the idiosyncracies of graphics hardware and software
07:50:45 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, but human art won't be sanely visible for aliens anyways...
07:51:01 <pikhq_> As that's based entirely in RGB.
07:51:03 <Vorpal> spirity, nor does it break when processing the data, as long as the sampling frequency and so on is good enough
07:51:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what about hand drawn stuff?
07:51:30 <fizzie> RGB for a color is more like representing all sounds as a weighted linear combination of three spectra than just discretization. The only reason we get away with it is because eyes.
07:51:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Our *pigments* only look right when viewed by an RGB viewer.
07:51:47 <pikhq_> Our eyes are analog RGB samplers.
07:51:48 <spirity> fizzie: that makes so much sense.
07:51:56 <spirity> I hadn't thought of it that way.
07:52:04 <fizzie> Fortunately, most people use eyes to do much of their looking, as opposed to spectroscopes.
07:52:19 <pikhq_> Which makes RGB just about ideal for *rendering* things for humans...
07:52:43 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure I heard of tetrachromancy (sp?) exists in humans. Extremely rare. But I read something about that a couple of years ago
07:52:51 <Vorpal> only possible in females as well iirc
07:53:03 <pikhq_> Yeah, it's a recessive gene on the X chromosome.
07:53:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so what does art look like to them? Or computer graphics?
07:53:33 <pikhq_> Weird, depends on how their eyes work.
07:53:39 <fizzie> "Further studies will need to be conducted to verify tetrachromacy in humans. Two possible tetrachromats have been identified: "Mrs. M", an English social worker, was located in a study conducted in 1993,[11] and an unidentified female physician near Newcastle, England, was discovered in a study reported in 2006.[10] Neither case has been fully verified."
07:53:44 <fizzie> It's a bit of a dubious thing.
07:53:48 <pikhq_> Unless they have RGB, they won't be able to view things like "brown".
07:53:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc wikipedia is a bit outdated on that
07:54:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well presumably they have RGBX or something like that?
07:54:19 <fizzie> Anyway, at least the existing cells have pretty wide frequency response curves.
07:54:26 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Oh, wait, tetrachromats.
07:54:32 <fizzie> I doubt a fourth type will make all that much of a difference.
07:54:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what did you think about?
07:54:42 <pikhq_> I don't know what the 4th cone is...
07:54:46 <pikhq_> I was thinking aliens.
07:54:54 <itidus21> infact, i think alleycat is better than most 3d games
07:55:00 <Vorpal> pikhq_, iirc it is between red and green
07:55:59 <pikhq_> Heck, the brain might just give up on figuring out an appropriate quale.
07:56:25 <Vorpal> what do you mean with "quale"?
07:57:10 <pikhq_> Term used in philosophy to refer to the subjective conscious experience of various sensations.
07:57:28 <pikhq_> (as opposed to the objective things they correspond to)
07:57:40 <Vorpal> still, what do you mean with the brain giving up on figuring out the quale then?
07:57:45 <fizzie> Anyway, colors are something you learn, so assuming you're born with one kind of eyes, you'll just get colors.
07:58:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, of course, but the thing is, would the colours on a computer monitor look realistic
07:58:15 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Is the brain actually capable of giving meaningful interpretations of RXGB?
07:58:41 <pikhq_> Or does it do something like treat X as half R and half G?...
07:58:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: qualia is best explained by that old question, do you and i see the same red?
07:58:57 <pikhq_> I have no idea how any of this works.
07:59:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Again, the frequency responses are pretty broad; my completely uninformed guess is that it'd be at least passable.
07:59:16 <fizzie> Apparently there's a paper from 2001 arguing that people with four photopigments have a "richer" view of colours, based on how much they speak about colours when describing things, to simplify a little.
07:59:26 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why shouldn't it be, if you grew up with it. After all far from all mamals have RGB. Even primates have different cone cell arrangements
07:59:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, doesn't work
07:59:48 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Again, I have no fucking clue about how this actually works.
07:59:55 <pikhq_> I'm just making educated guesses.
07:59:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I forgot which primate it was, but one of them have 3 cone cells in females and 2 in males
08:00:54 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Humans if there were any selection pressure in *favor* of color blindness? :)
08:01:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, grammar parse error?
08:01:34 <pikhq_> Nah, just a somewhat weird usage.
08:01:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, humans WHAT if there ...?
08:01:56 <pikhq_> "So, that would be humans, if there were any selection pressue in favor of color blindness?" Mild restating.
08:02:19 <Vorpal> why didn't nature develop spectrometers instead of simple colour sensors.
08:02:32 <fizzie> It'd have been... slightly harder?
08:02:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, well sure, but it would be much more awesome
08:02:43 <fizzie> Also possibly not such a remarkable evolutionary benefit.
08:03:00 <pikhq_> (the cochlea approximates an analog Fourier transform)
08:03:02 <Vorpal> also I would like to see into ultraviolent and infrared
08:03:12 <fizzie> pikhq_: The frequencies involved are a bit different, though.
08:03:21 <itidus21> Vorpal: but uh.. you know how when your retina is catching a wavelength 650nm (pardon my confusion of terms), and the dictionary name for this is red, but aside from all that, qualia represents that raw direct subjective experience
08:03:29 <fizzie> I don't think it'd be very trivial to build a light-cochlea.
08:03:37 <fizzie> At least from the same materials.
08:03:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, pikhq_ explained it adequately above...?
08:04:03 <spirity> subjectively, red is the color of afro voodoo magic.
08:04:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously one is pressure based and the other is based on electromagnetism
08:04:41 <pikhq_> Evolution has this nasty tendency to do things that are trivial improvements, rather than what makes any sense. :)
08:04:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm just saying that it's easier to deal with one than with the other.
08:05:04 <fizzie> Anyway, you can tell a tiger from a bush without having to consider the full spectra of tiger-fur and bush-leaves.
08:05:20 <Vorpal> anyway what about small prisms in front of a row of light sensitive molecules?
08:05:37 <pikhq_> An engineer would do that.
08:06:09 <pikhq_> Evolution leaves a vestigial retina in the brain.
08:06:37 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The pineal gland is a highly vestigial eye, part of it is a non-functional retina.
08:07:23 <spirity> pikhq_: it's like the third eye, man.
08:07:26 <fizzie> You could do a reasonable approximation by just having, say, 256 different types of cone cells with narrower frequency responses that we currently have.
08:07:38 <fizzie> That's also something that an engineer might do.
08:07:46 <Sgeo_> I kind of miss webtv
08:07:49 <pikhq_> Especially that number.
08:08:06 <fizzie> Both that and the prism thing have tradeoffs when it comes to resolution, though, since you need to fit multiple elements per spatial location.
08:08:16 <itidus21> <Ginto8> also watching MLP:FiM because it's fucking amazing <Ginto8> bronyness is not a choice, it is a calling.
08:08:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the prism solution might give a better resolution perhaps
08:08:48 <Vorpal> anyway I wouldn't mind a slightly larger sensor area
08:08:53 <pikhq_> spirity: In ancient times the pineal gland was called the third eye...
08:09:05 <itidus21> Sgeo_: i played a dragon ball z based byond game once..
08:09:12 <pikhq_> spirity: Unwittingly appropriate.
08:09:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Depends possibly on what kind of things you look, and how well you can do the interpolation. The different-cones version is basically like the bayer pattern in a digital camera, except with more colors.
08:09:36 <Sgeo_> There are seemingly 20 million dragon ball z based games, half of which use images ripped from the other half
08:09:38 <itidus21> i wasn't any good at the roleplay side of things though
08:09:54 <spirity> pikhq_: it also makes stuff that makes hallucinate. so yes. it makes sense in that light as well.
08:09:55 <fizzie> So you get better luma resolution than chroma resolution, sort-of.
08:10:04 <fizzie> Assuming things you look are reasonably wide-spectrum.
08:10:42 <Vorpal> what about trading time-resolution for chroma-resolution?
08:10:47 <pikhq_> fizzie: Which is true of humans too...
08:11:16 <Vorpal> you could have the light sensitive molecules being replaced a hundred times per second or so. Cycling between say 16 different ones
08:11:29 <fizzie> pikhq_: In the eye it really depends on the region of the retina, too. (I'm not sure an engineer would do *that*.)
08:11:31 <pikhq_> Makes sense: luma is relevant for fine detail. Chroma is kinda just bonus.
08:11:48 <pikhq_> fizzie: Even at the most color-sensitive areas we're far more luma sensitive.
08:12:00 <Vorpal> or why not panchromatic sensors and different light filters
08:12:13 <Vorpal> I believe that is what is done in astrophotography
08:12:38 <spirity> why didn't nature just make efficient perfect beings of infinite energy
08:12:48 <Vorpal> you could have the retina change filtering characteristics rapidly over a short time
08:12:51 <pikhq_> Damned hill-climbing algorithms.
08:13:21 <spirity> ITC: Vorpal disputes the effectiveness of the universe.
08:13:38 <Vorpal> spirity, "ITC" meaning? International Trade Something?
08:13:56 <spirity> as in "in this thread" except that doesn't make sense here.
08:14:06 <spirity> unless you interpret "thread" to mean "thread of discussion"
08:14:10 <Vorpal> spirity, actually I think I dispute the efficiency rather than the effectiveness?
08:14:28 <pikhq_> Evolution sure as hell *works*.
08:14:28 <spirity> it seems like you're talking about the deficiency.
08:14:31 <Vorpal> spirity, I don't use forums much, so I'm not familiar with "in this thread"
08:14:44 <fizzie> pikhq_: Well, obviously, since you need three kinds of cones to get the "full" chroma, while you get some amount of independent luma information from each of them.
08:14:53 <spirity> it's one of several ways to descend into meta-discussion about the weirdness of a topic.
08:14:57 <fizzie> But there's no rods right there in the middle, so low-light vision is close to nil there.
08:15:15 <fizzie> Then again, an engineer *definitely* wouldn't do the thing with the optic nerve.
08:15:22 <fizzie> At least an engineer you'd rehire.
08:15:27 <pikhq_> It's friggin' backwards!
08:15:51 <fizzie> That's what it is, and other species have it the right way around, with no unnecessary blind spots.
08:15:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean the blind spot?
08:16:07 * pikhq_ shall steal an octopus's eye
08:16:23 <Vorpal> <fizzie> That's what it is, and other species have it the right way around, with no unnecessary blind spots. <-- hm only humans have blind spots?
08:16:33 <fizzie> Well, s/other/some other/
08:16:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, oh so everyone except Cephalopods have it backwards?
08:17:25 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Well, yes, except it's only the cephalopods and vertebrates that have eyes of the sort.
08:17:40 <spirity> as an intelligent being inside this system, I feel like my capability of judging the systems merits in any way is not effective. We can only really accurately observe the events that come from it, and find patterns in it. Any kind of normative analysis is bound to be flawed in some way.
08:18:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: As far as I know, nothing else has the whole lens and retina thing going on.
08:18:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what about eyes in other groups? Like whatever group spiders are in?
08:18:23 <pikhq_> Those are single photosensitive cells, aren't they?
08:18:41 <Vorpal> surely they are larger than single cells?
08:18:46 <Vorpal> and they have 8 eyes right?
08:19:06 <fizzie> Some of them have that compound eye thing going on.
08:19:23 <fizzie> Like some thousands of individual "eyes".
08:19:31 <fizzie> Oriented a bit differently.
08:19:34 <pikhq_> I though compound eyes were bunches of lenses before bunches of single photosensitive cells.
08:20:04 <fizzie> Yes, those being the individual "eyes".
08:20:21 <fizzie> So no spatial stuff going on in there, just from the combined outputs.
08:20:49 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Types_of_eye lists quite a few types.
08:21:08 <fizzie> Ten counting the section titles.,
08:21:20 <Sgeo_> I just realized I'm literally sitting in the room that I used to play with WebTV in while listening to WebTV music
08:22:29 <spirity> perfect tense is a fun tense.
08:22:51 <pikhq_> The spookfish eye is probably my favorite, just for sheer weirdness.
08:23:07 <Vorpal> pikhq_, tell us about them
08:24:01 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, a dial-up box you would attach to your TV to let you surf the web without a computer
08:24:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it had special music?
08:24:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They use both refractive and reflective optics.
08:24:30 <Sgeo_> Music that you could play in the background while you surfed, yeah
08:24:35 <pikhq_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Spookeye.svg
08:24:46 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway don't cats do that? They have lenses but then mirrors behind the cone cells
08:25:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I have no idea how to interpret that drawinbg
08:25:10 <pikhq_> They're a form of barreleye fish (i.e. they have a transparent head, so the eye can move around)
08:25:22 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The right side is the normal eye, which looks up.
08:25:35 <pikhq_> The left side is a mirror feeding into a retina, which looks down.
08:25:58 <Sgeo_> There was a remote for it
08:26:03 <Sgeo_> And you could buy a keyboard for it
08:26:12 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so they see both up and down? With the same eye?
08:26:15 <fizzie> Hey, now that you mention it, I kind of remember WebTV.
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08:26:23 <fizzie> Not that I've seen one live.
08:26:44 <fizzie> It always sounded like having a computer except not quite a real one.
08:27:27 <Vorpal> presumably you could have flashed custom firmware to the device
08:27:35 <Vorpal> after all it probably was a low end computer in it
08:27:43 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Barreleye fish are themselves pretty weird...
08:27:44 <pikhq_> http://www.mbari.org/news/news_releases/2009/barreleye/barreleye1-350.jpg
08:28:04 <pikhq_> The eyes there are the green domes in the middle of the skull.
08:28:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what are the eye-like things on the front then?
08:28:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Regarding the cats, from what I recall, they just have a reflective coating behind the retina so that you get a bit more photons in for the low-light case.
08:28:54 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YblbVNPKw only video of WebTV I could find
08:28:57 <Vorpal> so their eyes is a combination of reflection and refraction
08:29:06 <fizzie> Only in a rather minor sense, though.
08:29:11 <pikhq_> Well. Not most barreleye fish.
08:29:20 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I meant the cats
08:29:22 <Sgeo_> Hmm, that commercial only shows the TV side
08:29:40 <pikhq_> They're just not using the god-damned weird reflective optics.
08:29:44 <Sgeo_> There's a few seconds of showing the web stuff
08:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq_, how is reflective optics weird?
08:30:16 <fizzie> In the dark, all cats are grey. (That's what they say.)
08:30:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway these fishes, are they deep sea ones?
08:30:25 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Name to me some animals other than spookfish that use it.
08:30:47 <Vorpal> I'm not a biologist. I wouldn't know
08:30:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but the principles look the same as for telescopes
08:31:10 <fizzie> pikhq_: "Many small organisms such as rotifers, copepods and platyhelminths use such organs, but these are too small to produce usable images.[1] Some larger organisms, such as scallops, also use reflector eyes. The scallop Pecten has up to 100 millimetre-scale reflector eyes fringing the edge of its shell. It detects moving objects as they pass successive lenses."
08:31:18 <fizzie> Admittedly spookfish is the only listed vertebrate there.
08:31:25 <fizzie> (From that "Types of eye" list.)
08:31:31 <ion> Rotifer sounds like a Nethack monster that causes rotting.
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08:31:46 <Vorpal> ion, to me it sounds like an enemy from Witcher 2
08:31:51 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure that existed
08:32:27 <Vorpal> oh no, it was "rotfiend"
08:32:33 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's only weird because *hardly anything else* does it.
08:32:37 <spirity> it's weird how English has no way to distinguish different kinds of future tenses
08:32:58 <spirity> you can't use tense to distinguish a future event relative to a future reference point.
08:33:08 <pikhq_> And the spookfish is weird in a different way: an engineer would just give that thing four eyes of the same sort.
08:33:11 <spirity> like you can describe past events from a past reference point.
08:33:15 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm how does human eyes handle chromatic aberration?
08:33:23 <Vorpal> do our brains compensate the positions?
08:34:12 <pikhq_> Vorpal: By not being sensitive to colors when that'd matter, I suspect.
08:34:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, oh right, TCA is not so much of a problem near the middle true
08:34:45 <Vorpal> though it still does happen near the middle of lenses
08:34:59 <pikhq_> spirity: And English is more precise about them than some.
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08:35:58 <Vorpal> also it is sad humans have fixed zoom :/
08:36:16 <pikhq_> spirity: Japanese, for instance, has a present/future tense, not a future tense.
08:36:17 <spirity> it sucks that we don't have rocket feet.
08:36:26 <pikhq_> It sucks that we don't have wheels.
08:36:41 <spirity> so we can fly when we're not rolling down grassy slopes
08:36:46 <Vorpal> an engineer would never have done that in a high end model like humans (I mean, we have one of the top end brains of the animal kingdom)
08:37:17 <Vorpal> spirity, wheels have technical problems though
08:37:25 <Vorpal> it doesn't really work as well as legs on uneven terrain
08:37:27 <spirity> yes, which are negated by rocket feet.
08:37:27 <pikhq_> If an engineer were going to give humans legs, we'd look like centaurs.
08:37:58 <spirity> we'd just have to eat a lot of food to produce the highly explosive rocket fuel.
08:38:04 <pikhq_> Bipedalism is just a *royal friggin' pain*.
08:38:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, actually two legs are more efficient at navigating steep terrain than four legs
08:38:05 <spirity> but that's okay with rocket feet we'd be excellent predators.
08:38:15 <Vorpal> pikhq_, from what I remember
08:39:12 <Vorpal> why aren't there any three-legged creatures?
08:39:21 <spirity> it's also more efficient for long distance running.
08:39:27 <pikhq_> They are stupidly good at steep terrain.
08:39:50 <pikhq_> spirity: True, and that is what we did in the ancestral environment.
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08:40:06 <spirity> we also used it to our advantage when hunting, and still do.
08:40:20 <spirity> so we could chase prey until they grew tired.
08:40:34 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway what creatures with an odd number of legs? Are there any?
08:40:44 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I don't know of any.
08:41:02 <spirity> it's probably not very efficient?
08:41:04 <pikhq_> Vorpal: All the animals with appendages are bilaterians.
08:41:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, "bilaterians"?
08:41:22 <pikhq_> The clade of animals with bilateral symmetry.
08:41:33 <Vorpal> spirity, okay so what does "bilaterial" mean?
08:41:58 <spirity> there's a line you can divide us up into where the 2 halves are more or less the same.
08:41:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you could have a leg in the middle
08:42:31 <pikhq_> Guess there was some reason not to.
08:43:07 <pikhq_> Stochastic hill climbing algorithms are really hard to reverse engineer. :P
08:43:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Chelgarians have that midlimb, IIRC. (The downside is that they're entirely fictional.)
08:43:34 <Vorpal> that is indeed a downside in this discussion
08:43:56 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I guess there are male elephants? Their... penis is prehensile and can bear weight.
08:44:31 <Vorpal> actually now that you mention it, I have a vague memory of hearing about that
08:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, do they use it as an extra leg though?
08:44:57 * spirity was trying to find an intelligent way to incorporate penises into this discussion after middle appendages were mentioned, but couldn't come up with anything.
08:46:05 <pikhq_> Vorpal: When trying to maintain balance.
08:46:22 <pikhq_> http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-2325d7f6567e1a7459f965b85b2d82cd-Elephant-penis.jpg
08:46:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re chromatic aberration, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromostereopsis
08:48:03 <spirity> it's interesting the different survival strategies of life.
08:48:14 <spirity> some species are very inactive. consume little. do little.
08:48:25 <Vorpal> spirity, such as Americans ;)
08:48:37 <Vorpal> okay they don't consume a little
08:48:43 <spirity> I'd say humans as a whole are on the opposite end of the spectrum.
08:48:50 <spirity> depending on how you define "do"
08:48:57 <spirity> we move a lot of energy around.
08:50:45 <spirity> IIRC, beavers are second place in terms of altering their environment.
08:52:09 <pikhq_> Only other animal I can think of that notably alters the environment on short time scales.
08:52:42 <spirity> perhaps some kind of fungus?
08:52:53 <spirity> depending on what you count as an animal
08:52:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well, a lot of animals build various kind of nests and so on
08:53:20 <spirity> beavers completely alter the flow of rivers though.
08:53:21 <Vorpal> various tunneling rodents too
08:53:46 <pikhq_> Friggin' *dams* though.
08:53:52 <Vorpal> spirity, right, but if it didn't have effect downstreams, it wouldn't end up as highly on that list
08:54:12 <pikhq_> Well, yeah. If it weren't for that it'd be not much different from, say, bees.
08:54:31 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They make hives.
08:54:48 <pikhq_> And many other animals make analogous homes.
08:54:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, and there are various rodents that build dwellings below ground
08:54:57 <Vorpal> and termites and what not
08:55:04 <pikhq_> Nobody else intentionally dams a river, though.
08:55:11 <spirity> I can't remember which insects build huge ground-based hives. Maybe it was some species of ant?
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08:55:30 <spirity> or maybe it was a wasp or something.
08:55:34 <spirity> I think it was a flying insect.
08:55:55 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Termite_Cathedral_DSC03570.jpg That's a termite mound.
08:56:28 <Vorpal> iirc termites can fly. That is queens during part of their life. or so
08:56:35 <pikhq_> They can go up to 30ft (9m) high.
08:56:36 <Vorpal> some sort of ant or termite anyway
08:56:59 <spirity> any kind of insect that resembles another insect but with wings scares me for some reason
08:57:03 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why do they look like that? Why the vertical element to them?
08:57:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, cooling towers?
08:57:22 <spirity> like there's a species around here that resembles huge cockroaches but with large wings.
08:57:27 <Vorpal> they remind me of that
08:57:34 <fizzie> Plain old conical anthills can get pretty large too.
08:57:40 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They do in fact keep the towers at a precise temperature.
08:57:54 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what do they store in them?
08:57:56 <pikhq_> Within 1°C of a constant temperature, always.
08:58:04 <pikhq_> Some species maintain fungal colonies for food.
08:58:44 <spirity> you could say that kudzu alters its environment quite a bit when it grows in the southeast US, by completely engulfing it. :P
08:58:56 <spirity> entire sections of forest.
08:59:03 <pikhq_> Also, they are sometimes in really, really hot places.
08:59:09 <Vorpal> spirity, not in short term?
08:59:13 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_giant_African_ant_hill_with_somone_on_it.JPG Wikipedia has the best file names.
08:59:18 <pikhq_> If they didn't work to cool it, any colony would roast.
08:59:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Kudzu grows really quickly.
08:59:27 <fizzie> It's Exactly What It Says On The Tin.
08:59:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wouldn't want to be that guy
08:59:38 <spirity> several feet per day I believe?
09:00:05 <Vorpal> spirity, so could you see it growing while watching?
09:00:19 <spirity> kudzu's kind of a problem here.
09:00:37 <Vorpal> spirity, are they native to the area?
09:00:58 <Vorpal> where did they grow natively?
09:01:05 <spirity> it's from China I believe.
09:01:16 <pikhq_> It's kept in check by winter.
09:01:33 <pikhq_> It apparently grows up to 1 foot per day.
09:01:57 <pikhq_> Problem is, the South doesn't have much of a winter.
09:02:02 <pikhq_> So, the kudzu grows year round.
09:02:03 <spirity> http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/invasivetutorial/images/kudzu4.jpg
09:02:08 <fizzie> Environmental effects and animals: rabbits, Australia.
09:02:19 <Vorpal> spirity, they grow over trees?
09:02:24 <Vorpal> spirity, or what are the vertical things?
09:02:40 <mroman> Australian bears covered by alien plants?
09:02:40 <Vorpal> why would you have introduced them to the area?
09:02:54 <Vorpal> mroman, "Australian bears"?
09:03:15 <Vorpal> spirity, so what do you do to deal with those plants?
09:03:17 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Japanese pavilion in the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia.
09:03:34 <mroman> Vorpal: No bears in australia?
09:03:42 <pikhq_> As for dealing with them: WIP.
09:03:55 <fizzie> "Effects on Australia's ecology: Since their introduction from Europe in the 19th century, the effect of rabbits on the ecology of Australia has been devastating. They are suspected of being the most significant known factor in species loss in Australia. The loss of plant species is unknown at this time. Rabbits often kill young trees in orchards, forests and on properties by ringbarking them. ...
09:04:00 <Vorpal> mroman, what does Australia have to do with it at all?
09:04:01 <fizzie> ... Rabbits are also responsible for serious erosion problems, as they eat native plants, leaving the topsoil exposed and vulnerable to sheet, gully and wind erosion. The removal of this topsoil is devastating to the land, as it takes many hundreds of years to regenerate."
09:04:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's not even like it'd be impossible to come up with a use for it...
09:05:08 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well of course, you can use it for whatever it was used for over where it was native
09:05:38 <pikhq_> It's also usable for making ethanol.
09:05:58 <Vorpal> I presume you American does take advantage of it like that?
09:06:21 <spirity> Vorpal: these "vertical things" do look pretty weird. those trees are probably complete dead from lack of sunlight.
09:06:22 <pikhq_> It's not corn, and we're idiots.
09:06:42 <pikhq_> (ethanol *from corn* is subsidised for fuel)
09:07:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you could still use it for other stuff
09:07:35 <spirity> it's edible. I've never tried it though
09:07:49 <pikhq_> Careful, you're proposing logic.
09:08:11 <fizzie> Hey, speaking of which. Antwerpen zoo's gift shop sold paper made out of poo. They were very proud of it.
09:08:35 <fizzie> Didn't buy any, though I did consider buying a notepad and giving it as a gift to someone at work.
09:08:47 <fizzie> "You can write your feedback suggestions on this, it'd really fit."
09:08:58 <fizzie> Bullshit on bullshit, and so on.
09:09:16 <fizzie> Don't know anyone to diss like that, really, so skipped.
09:09:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, did it smell badly?
09:09:35 <fizzie> I didn't smell anything.
09:09:39 <fizzie> This brand, I think: http://new.poopoopaper.com/
09:10:02 <pikhq_> Vorpal: We drive vehicles large enough to be a rollover risk. Thinking is not our strong suite.
09:10:02 <fizzie> "POOPOOPAPER? products are natural, recycled and odorless (!) paper products made from poop from a variety of different fiber-eating vegetarian animals such as elephants, cows, horses, moose, pandas, and donkeys. That right! Go figure!"
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09:10:13 <Vorpal> I have a ruler here, made out of recycled circuit board (and a metal bit around the edges so it works as a ruler
09:10:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's like reusing computer poo, then.
09:10:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, that is why I mentioned it
09:11:12 <fizzie> "Take your time to explore our site and our POOPOOPAPER WEBSTORE called ?THE POOTIQUE?."
09:11:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, the company that made it had like a one page web site last I checked
09:11:18 <fizzie> Really, it was mostly about the puns.
09:11:21 <Vorpal> I was wondering if they were still around
09:11:43 <spirity> I got an interesting idea for a website recently.
09:12:10 <spirity> essentially a service that allows you to create a very small virtual server instance, for the purpose of security testing.
09:12:11 <fizzie> "We take the 'oo' out of poo!" "FECAL MATTER O'FACTS" it's like an endless succession of bad puns.
09:12:25 <spirity> you have a public listing of all the servers, and information about how to login.
09:12:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, "CompuNote", can only find a Brazillian page now. The web site printed on the item is dead
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09:13:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is still this however: http://www.compunote.com.br/indexp.htm
09:13:10 <spirity> so you have people testing the security of their software, and people trying to break in.
09:13:28 <spirity> but I have no clue how to implement it in any practical sense.
09:13:37 <spirity> I just think it's a neat idea.
09:13:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: People do "jewelry" from computer chips, I know that.
09:14:03 <fizzie> And one restaurant in Otaniemi is IIRC decorated with old motherboards.
09:14:05 <Vorpal> I should take a picture of the thing
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09:14:23 <gushen> I know the programming language of the universe and I can explain it to you. But I have only 20 minutes. Private chat only.
09:14:25 <spirity> there's a lot of unaffiliated people here.
09:14:32 <Vorpal> it is kind of neat. Somewhat damaged from when I used it with a paper cutter and ended up on the ruler by mistake though
09:14:37 <Taneb> gushen, I'll take it
09:15:12 <fizzie> Taneb: I'd be careful around the part where your credit card info is asked.
09:15:26 <Vorpal> I think I bought the thing at some tech museum gift shop thingy like 10 years ago
09:21:41 <spirity> has anyone seen the "what if" xkcd stuff?
09:21:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111712.jpg and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111718.jpg
09:22:06 <Taneb> spirity, yeah, it's really gone downhill since it started
09:22:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, oh? got a link?
09:23:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a mobile phone camera, so quality is meh
09:23:09 <spirity> Taneb: well, there's only three so far. that's not a very big sample size.
09:23:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, what was the point of that spelling?
09:23:28 <Taneb> http://what-if.xkcd.com/
09:23:43 <Taneb> But yeah, I enjoyed the first one most, and I'm making a joke at the expense of xkcd
09:23:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: No point. I don't do points.
09:23:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: What's that bottom side?
09:25:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, some kind of high friction surface
09:26:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, like a very compact plastic foam kind of thing
09:26:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, no idea what it is called
09:27:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a very nice ruler except that because of the high friction thingy standing out a bit it isn't ideal to use to draw straight lines, the distance between the edge and the paper is maybe a millimetre or so
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09:33:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, I think all three so far was okay. The first one was most interesting. But one of them were bad as such
09:34:10 <Vorpal> https://www.xkcd.com/1083/ <-- I don't get this one
09:36:10 <Sgeo_> Presumably, politicians are using what some people call txtspeak more often than teenagers are, and a lot of teenagers are into Ron paul?
09:36:39 <Vorpal> well I hate "txtspeak"
09:37:09 <Taneb> Are you a senator?
09:39:36 <Taneb> Then you shouldn't use txtspeak
09:41:24 <Jafet> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/3994
09:42:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://web.archive.org/web/20080910194707/http://www.compunote.net/en/index.html
09:57:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, see the image of my ruler above
09:57:45 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111712.jpg and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111718.jpg
10:00:58 <nortti> Vorpal: is there any use for the circuit bord in that ruler?
10:01:08 <Vorpal> nortti, no. Read the context
10:03:15 <itidus21> nortti: the purpose is it looks cool, and it's a solid material structure
10:03:40 <itidus21> and, also, it will otherwise be in landfill
10:05:05 <Vorpal> hm I wonder what the circuit board was originally from
10:05:40 <Vorpal> the text next to the various connectors doesn't really help at all
10:05:48 <Vorpal> it is mostly just R for resistors and so on
10:06:29 <Vorpal> if anyone wants to have a go at guessing I could make a high resolution scan of the ruler
10:27:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "ICD1" header in the other end could be some sort of a debugging/programming connector place.
10:30:38 <fizzie> (Then again, it could as well be something completely different.)
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10:45:08 <fizzie> if any(double(est_utt_gpu(:))==0); disp('Zero hats 1') -- I don't know why, but the nonsensicality of "Zero hats 1" made me smile.
10:45:46 <nortti> what language is that?
10:46:06 <kmc> one place i worked had a line of code like
10:46:26 <kmc> if (n == 37698410) printf("shitter?? here???\n");
10:47:10 <fizzie> There's a similar test later on with, yes, "Zero hats 2" as the message. The "zero" part is obvious; the "hats" part is a bit more involved.
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10:50:49 <Vorpal> huh, the hubble telescope is in a very low orbit
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10:53:59 <olsner> if you stand on the ground, does that count as an orbit?
10:54:05 <fizzie> nortti: Or, to be exact, it's Matlab with the "GPUmat" CUDA toolbox thingie; that explains the otherwise useless double().
10:54:55 <Vorpal> olsner, well Hubble is actually in the upper atmosphere. While stuff like GPS is several times further away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_satellite_navigation_orbits.svg
10:55:00 <fizzie> olsner: I'm sure it's called VLGO (Very Low Geostationary Orbit) or something by professionals.
10:55:39 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that should be geosynchronous.
10:56:06 <fizzie> Since apparently geostationary means the special case of having the "correct" altitude.
10:56:34 <olsner> right, because you're at the wrong altitude for having the orbit you're having
10:56:59 <fizzie> Oh, and geostationary seems to be above-the-equator too.
10:57:11 <fizzie> (Not an astrophysicist.)
10:57:35 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe it counts as some sort of powered orbit. With luck, they'd make a seven-letter acronym for it.
10:58:40 <fizzie> I'm sure someone would nitpick that it's not a real orbit if it doesn't, you know, orbit.
10:58:59 <fizzie> You know, be defined by gravity.
10:59:23 <Vorpal> I think it is the only orbit that is geosynchronous due to friction
11:00:12 <olsner> hmm, I think such a narrow definition would forbid sattelites from correcting their orbits
11:00:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, physics question: Does a helicopter-like object that only apply upwards force (no sideways force) on an ideal planet with no wind and so on stay over the same spot on the ground?
11:00:59 <Vorpal> or would it drift sideways
11:01:58 <fizzie> Is your ideal planet rotating?-) (I'm not a physicist so I'm not going to try answering in any case.)
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11:04:58 <kmc> it's too bad that they can't implement the original plan of bringing Hubble back to earth in the Space Shuttle and putting it in a museum
11:05:00 <mailanmuoto> if so, do these satellites have satellites?
11:05:07 <fizzie> olsner: "2. a. Astron. The regularly repeated, typically elliptical course of a celestial object, satellite, spacecraft, etc., around a more massive body (as the sun, the earth, a star, or a planet) to which it is bound by gravity. Now also: one complete circuit made by an object around the orbited body." (OED)
11:05:12 <kmc> this would be a waste of money, but it's still cool
11:05:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what would happen if it wasn't rotating?
11:06:16 <olsner> the psychics in the other #esoteric warned us this topic was coming up
11:07:02 <Vorpal> <mailanmuoto> does the moon have satellites of its own? <-- maybe some debris or so? Nothing of importance though
11:07:18 <HackEgo> mailanmuoto: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <mailanmuoto> does the moon have satellites of its own?
11:07:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? We placed satellites around it?
11:07:59 <kmc> it certainly has in the past
11:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure if there are any still there, but it's a lot harder to get an orbiting satellite to crash than to just leave it there so I assume they're still there.
11:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Otherwise, the masses and distances involved make it too unstable to support large natural satellites.
11:10:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: All the five Lunar Orbiter satellites at least have crashed down, don't know about later ones.
11:10:53 <fizzie> "The Lunar Orbiters were all eventually commanded to crash on the Moon before their attitude control fuel ran out so they would not present navigational or communications hazards to later Apollo flights."
11:11:04 <mailanmuoto> erm well by "masses and distances involved" are you referring to the fact the earth is not sufficiently bigger than the moon or what?
11:11:11 <fizzie> They haven't had that concern nowadays.
11:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Reconnaissance_Orbiter
11:11:30 <fizzie> Oh, right, LRO is obviously still there.
11:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> mailanmuoto, well the Moon is stable more or less because the Sun is way more massive than the Earth and far, far further away.
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11:12:09 <fizzie> In solar system timescales, though, you might not want to count all this blink-of-the-eye stuff.
11:14:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo11-LRO-March2012.jpg take that moon landing hoax people! (Of course that image is a fake too.)
11:19:59 <olsner> fizzie: just a bunch of pixels, holds no reality
11:24:09 <itidus21> putting aside the hoax question, i assume it is still considered impossible by many for humans to go to the moon
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11:27:32 <itidus21> i assume they think it's a hoax because they don't think humans can walk on the moon
11:27:54 <itidus21> and that they still don't think humans can walk on the moon
11:28:53 <itidus21> i assume the only reason humans went at all is because the automation was not possible
11:29:35 <itidus21> because being trapped on the moon theer is noone who can save you
11:29:52 <Vorpal> in the political climate at the time I'm not sure they would have preferred automation
11:30:04 <Vorpal> the space race and so on
11:35:36 <itidus21> its just strange, they did the whole thing only so they could say look what we did, and they managed to do it in such a way that a lot of people didn't believe they even did it
11:36:53 <nooga> russians sent few people to the orbit and they've never returned
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11:38:14 <spirity> itidus21: people just put together connections that don't exist.
11:53:09 <kmc> itidus21: the number of people who don't believe it is tiny
11:53:23 <kmc> it's a far out conspiracy theory which is widely mocked in mainstream US popular culture
11:53:59 <nortti> hmm. have you heard of flat earth society
11:54:10 <fizzie> They are mocked a lot, too.
11:54:17 <kmc> itidus21: i think your assumption is false too
11:54:31 <kmc> i don't think the conspiracy theorists consder a moon landing to be physically impossible
11:54:35 <kmc> not all of them
11:54:39 <kmc> i don't know why you are assuming that
11:54:43 <Vorpal> isn't there some hollow earth conspiracy thing too?
11:54:49 <kmc> but i don't understand why you assume all of the wrong things you do
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11:55:36 <itidus21> to me, it is infact stupid to send humans to the moon for the sheer bravado of it
11:55:58 <nooga> oh, i've met a guy who's totally convinced that the earth is hollow
11:56:03 <nooga> and same for the moon
11:56:26 <fizzie> Grumble grumble "Error using *: Inner matrix dimensions must agree. -- in [absurdly complicated expression involving several instances of *]" I suppose it would just *kill* you to, I don't know, underline the bad operands or something.
11:56:43 <itidus21> well, the reason they think things like this is a lack of evidence
11:56:51 <kmc> itidus21: no
11:56:53 <itidus21> since there is no pictures of the center of the earth
11:57:00 <nooga> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judica-Cordiglia_brothers
11:57:04 <kmc> you do not understand anything
11:57:35 <kmc> nooga: yeah those are not really more credible than the moon landing hoax people
11:57:39 <itidus21> so, soundnfury was saying pythagorus probably didn't exist
11:57:39 <kmc> though there's less evidence to the contrary as well
11:57:45 <kmc> but that doesn't make the conspiracy theory more credible
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11:57:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you might want to copy out parts and try those separately? Doing a binary search on the expression basically
11:58:02 <itidus21> but to be fair people did say not so fast
11:58:07 <kmc> itidus21: people who believe crazy things typically hold onto their beliefs despite an abundance of evidence to the contrary
11:58:16 <kmc> <itidus21> well, the reason they think things like this is a lack of evidence
11:58:31 <nooga> hollow earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth
11:58:34 <kmc> no no no no no no no
11:58:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: The GUI desktop at least has (in debug mode) a tooltip which gives dimensions, so I could just point the mouse at them.
11:59:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that works too
11:59:21 <fizzie> In this piece of code, everything is always a transpose of what I'd expect.
11:59:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you doing btw?
12:00:17 <kmc> itidus21: sometimes talking to you is physically painful
12:00:17 <fizzie> Sometimes it's A*B*C^T, and other times it's C*B^T*A^T and it takes slices the other way around, which is obviously the same thing, but not so clearly noticeable.
12:00:35 <fizzie> I'm trying to make sense out of this matrix deconvolution code we have.
12:00:41 <itidus21> kmc: i am merely lost in 2012.
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12:05:55 <Taneb> I like how the BBC website has said "MOJANG IS SUED! So's a bunch of small companies, like EA, Gameloft and Square Enix, but nobody cares about them"
12:08:05 <fizzie> Incidental pet peculiarity: Matlab ' operator does the conjugate transpose, while the .' operator does a regular transpose; for a real matrix it's of course the same thing, but I'm still tempted to use the uglier-looking .' for some unfathomable reason, even though A' is the idiomatic way of getting transpose of A if A is known to be real.
12:08:19 <Taneb> Pretty much just now
12:08:25 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18953828
12:08:34 <Vorpal> <kmc> itidus21: sometimes talking to you is physically painful <-- same for zzo
12:08:36 <fizzie> It's been a day or two already. Since the news, I mean, not sure about the BBC.
12:09:05 <Taneb> Yeah, BBC's quite slow sometimes, especially with tech
12:09:09 <Taneb> It's good for UK politics
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12:11:23 <Vorpal> <Taneb> I like how the BBC website has said "MOJANG IS SUED! So's a bunch of small companies, like EA, Gameloft and Square Enix, but nobody cares about them" <-- can't find that quote on the page you linked
12:11:32 <Taneb> I was paraphrasing
12:11:39 <Taneb> "Mojang is one of ten companies, including Electronic Arts, GameLoft and Square Enix, that have been named in the lawsuit."
12:12:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, re "everything is always a transpose", one of the involved matrices is square, which is even worse, since at least for the others it's obvious is they are used in a wrong way.
12:12:37 <Taneb> Apparently, you can't confirm login details by communicating with a server if you have a SIM card plugged in
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12:23:24 <Taneb> I don't know either
12:23:35 <nooga> because i'm writing a mobile game at the moment
12:25:16 <nortti> expecialy software patents
12:25:29 <Taneb> Just don't let anyone in East Texas buy it
12:27:59 <Taneb> Write to that guy who was in that election a few months ago
12:28:20 <Taneb> WRITE TO TOM CRUISE
12:28:44 <fizzie> Tom Cruise says it's such an incredible feeling when you know you can help people.
12:28:50 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
12:29:08 <Taneb> DON'T LET HIM GIVE YOU A PERSONALITY TEST, THOUGH
12:29:17 <Vorpal> nooga, don't sell it outside EU?
12:30:07 <nooga> it's about 'calling home' to verify the copy
12:30:41 <nooga> since my game is freemium
12:30:56 <nooga> 0 is the general amount of fuck that i give
12:31:08 <fizzie> Do you have in-app purchases? You know those are patented too.
12:31:28 <Vorpal> doesn't google provide an API to verify against Google Play
12:31:28 <fizzie> Or did the Lodsys thing reach some sort of a conclusion yet?
12:31:32 <Vorpal> I seem to remember they do
12:31:33 <nooga> my lawyer will sort that out
12:31:55 <Vorpal> nooga, what platform is your mobile game for?
12:32:02 <Vorpal> and what sort of game is it?
12:32:14 <Vorpal> okay, scrap the second question, iOS is not interesting to me
12:32:17 <nooga> massively multiplayer puzzle
12:32:40 <Vorpal> not in a thousand years will I buy an iOS device
12:33:10 <nortti> I could buy iPhone 2G just to install iDroid on it
12:33:37 <fizzie> Lodsys IIRC sued a huge pile of small iOS developers for using the Apple-provided in-app purchase API. I forget exactly if that got resolved, though.
12:33:46 <Vorpal> nortti, I would suggest that a dedicated Android product is better
12:34:31 <nortti> Vorpal: but with that I couldn't troll both sides iOs vs. Android battle
12:35:38 <fizzie> What number have they reached in iPhones now? Is there a 5?
12:39:30 <nooga> i don't even have an iphone
12:39:59 <nooga> i use HTC Desire HD ;d
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12:45:18 <Vorpal> so why is he making an iOS game...
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12:50:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Perhaps that's where the money is.
12:53:03 <kmc> nooga: yeah, well, shachaf doesn't even have a television
12:53:25 <Vorpal> <nooga> i use HTC Desire HD ;d <Vorpal> so why is he making an iOS game...
12:59:09 <nooga> iOS users are more willing to pay
12:59:16 <fizzie> Ha, I guessed the right.
12:59:17 <nooga> for some useless crap
12:59:35 <nooga> that will help them to cheat and earn more points to buy useless crap
12:59:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: To add one point to the earlier CGA discussion, there's the cute trick with the composite TV output, where suitable pixel patterns produce colors when decoded by a NTSC TV. See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/KQ_CompVsRGB.png -- left side is the regular monitor view, right side is the TV view; and top row has the game in "composite mode", bottom row in "RGB mode".
13:00:25 <nooga> kmc: I don't have a TV
13:00:33 <nooga> TV is useless and annoying
13:00:41 <nortti> but then there are PAL TVs...
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13:02:03 <fizzie> And SECAM TVs, if you want to go that far.
13:02:18 <fizzie> I don't know if those are possible to misuse the same way. Maybe not.
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13:09:38 <Vorpal> nortti, how can you test it without an iOS device though?
13:09:42 <fizzie> Not that I have personally ever seen a CGA card hooked to a television.
13:09:47 <Vorpal> I mean emulators are all fine and so on
13:09:57 <Vorpal> but how is OpenGL performance in those?
13:10:04 <Vorpal> that you are developing
13:10:40 <nooga> Vorpal: i've got an ipad
13:10:41 <fizzie> nortti: In case you didn't know, you're now developing an iOS game. Sorry about that.
13:10:56 <nooga> all of my friends have iphone
13:11:03 <nooga> including the teammates
13:11:03 <Vorpal> I type "no<tab>", and I have it set to order by "spoke last"
13:11:10 <Vorpal> so one of you need to change nick
13:12:21 <nooga> Vorpal: ios emulator is just a sandbox that shares running kernel with the host OS X
13:12:45 <Vorpal> unusual rain outside. Very very fine drops. But a lot of them. It is like if someone would be using a "fine fog" nozzle kind of thing
13:12:46 <nooga> so that the performance is near to native
13:13:03 <Vorpal> nooga, isn't iOS ARM and normal macs x86?
13:13:19 <Vorpal> and unlike for android they don't run bytecode
13:13:23 <nooga> kernel is the same
13:13:30 <Vorpal> nooga, sure, but binary is not?
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13:14:00 <kmc> ios emulator runs the compiler to produce native code
13:14:01 <nooga> you get different code for different targets
13:14:25 <kmc> but android emulator just has an arm emulator
13:14:38 <kmc> emulator translator something whatever
13:14:42 <Vorpal> kmc, or x86. Remember there are Atom based Android devices
13:14:42 <nooga> but the kerner, shell and libs are the same on both targets
13:14:56 <Vorpal> in which case it can use kvm
13:14:56 <kmc> also the kerner
13:15:22 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway there are some issues with that approach, like if you have inline asm
13:15:40 <Vorpal> and even if not, there could be various differences between the platforms
13:15:55 <nortti> KERNAL is pretty strange name for a OS
13:16:36 <fizzie> Here's some documentary text about the kernel: "Teh kernal si a VARY IMPORTANT part of teh computar and you have to be SUPA 733t to hax0r teh kernal it si vary hard and there are MANY GUNS PROTECTING THE KERNAL!! ITs not loke Kernal Clink tho he was stoopid Hogan gots away frum him all teh time THE TUNNEL IS UNDER TEH BED U IDIAT!!"
13:16:53 <fizzie> (It's from a rinkworks.com movie review of Hackers.)
13:17:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of site is that
13:18:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I find it unreadable
13:18:15 <fizzie> nortti: http://www.rinkworks.com/badmovie/m/hackers.1995.shtml (The other reviews are not quite like that.)
13:18:59 <fizzie> I have used their fantasy name generator for Diablo 2 character names.
13:19:03 <nooga> Vorpal: and they don't give a f.. about hardware that they didn't make
13:19:09 <fizzie> And possibly for other character names too.
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13:19:31 <nooga> and they do only small set of devices with really good support and programming system
13:19:40 <fizzie> They also have that CGI adventure game thing at rinkworks, but I've never gotten into that.
13:20:17 <Vorpal> nooga, indeed, but there could still be subtle differences between the emulator and the hardware
13:20:18 <nooga> I'm not even sure if someone tried inline asm in an iphone app
13:20:35 <nooga> how llvm will handle this
13:21:04 <Vorpal> nooga, I'm sure there are in some system headers
13:21:18 <Vorpal> after all the glibc headers have macros defined to asm sequences for some stuff
13:22:40 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway there are obviously some differences. Like multi touch not existing on the screen of the mac
13:22:54 <Vorpal> and there being no gyro in the mac (I guess?)
13:23:19 <nooga> oh, the emulator simulates that
13:23:35 <Vorpal> nooga, oh and don't forget another difference: the mac has a much stronger processor. Algorithms that run fine on the mac might run too slow to be usable on a real device
13:23:36 <nooga> it has some faux drivers that you can control
13:24:14 <nortti> Vorpal: well that depends on the mac
13:24:14 <nooga> sometimes i think that the ipad 3 is stronger than my mbp when it comes to graphics and multimedia
13:24:32 <Vorpal> nooga, sure, the point is that they don't match however
13:24:33 <nooga> also, it has this retina display which is really really hi-res
13:24:56 <Vorpal> and your macbook does not. So pixel graphics are going to be suboptimal on one of those
13:25:37 <spirity> a parallel extension of the C programming language that supports efficient access to a global address space on current distributed memory multiprocessors. It retains the "small language" character of C and supports careful engineering and optimization of programs by providing a simple, predictable cost model.
13:25:41 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway did inline asm work?
13:25:44 <spirity> I wasn't aware that C was a "small language"
13:26:07 <fizzie> spirity: Perhaps it's in contrast with, say, C++.
13:26:08 <Vorpal> spirity, compared to some other languages I guess it is
13:26:19 <fizzie> Which you could characterize as a hulking monster of a language.
13:26:31 <Vorpal> the standard library is much less complete than Haskell's for example
13:27:16 <nooga> Vorpal: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/238010/how-do-i-do-inline-assembly-on-the-iphone
13:27:30 <nooga> spirity: it's small
13:27:44 <Vorpal> nooga, right, __asm__ makes perfect sense in GCC context
13:27:50 <Vorpal> if you use -std=c99 or such
13:28:17 <nooga> uhum, and you use Objective-C
13:28:28 <Vorpal> well okay, whatever -std that has
13:29:07 <fizzie> Someone somewhere suggested that a future 64-bit ARM could have an optional 64-bits-wide instruction set, and that could be called "Leg mode".
13:29:10 <spirity> nooga: given all the weird standardization corner cases that come up I feel as though "small" is not the right word for C. Maybe small in core language features, but small in terms of minor (usually unnoticed) technical details.
13:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is going to be called Arch64 iirc
13:29:33 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that might have been me
13:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mean, 64-bit ARM is already in the works
13:29:43 <olsner> unless I stole it from somewhere else
13:29:44 <fizzie> olsner: Very possible.
13:30:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: The architecture, sure, but I don't think they were planning to have 64-bit-wide opcodes in it, were they?
13:30:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, 32 bit I think
13:30:19 <Vorpal> and no Thumb style mode
13:30:27 <Vorpal> (except for running legacy code)
13:30:59 <fizzie> Well, they could go for a thing with a Thumb, an Arm, and a Leg. And then a VLIW-style "Torso" mode, and some 8-bit bytecode thing called Pinky.
13:31:14 <soundnfury> spirity: you crazy? of course C is small
13:31:40 <Vorpal> soundnfury, not compared to asm
13:31:46 <soundnfury> it's physically possible to read N1256 (the C99 draft) and understand it
13:31:58 <olsner> they should just bite the bullet and switch to a variable-length instruction encoding ... unless every instruction is equally probable, I think any fixed-size encoding will be worse than a variable-length one
13:32:25 <soundnfury> olsner: costs chip real estate, and makes things harder for the scheduler if there is one
13:32:26 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway what was that parallel extension? OpenMP?
13:33:16 <Vorpal> olsner, fixed size one simplifies pipeline design and so on
13:33:28 <fizzie> olsner: Yeah, that's just "worse" if your only metric is "number of bits per instruction".
13:33:45 <Vorpal> on x86, you have to worry about instructions crossing cache line boundaries
13:33:46 <olsner> fizzie: yes, that was thinking only about program size
13:33:49 <nortti> PIC16 seems pretty good
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13:35:32 <fizzie> Incidentally, what's NEON short for?
13:35:58 <olsner> new extended on-chip new-stuff
13:36:12 <fizzie> They do spell it consistently all-uppercase.
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13:36:52 <olsner> whatever it stands for, it'll be better than SSSSE7 or whatever the newest x86 stuff is
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13:37:31 <Vorpal> soundnfury, glad that you feel that way
13:37:38 <Vorpal> soundnfury, what about AVR?
13:38:01 <Vorpal> apart from left/right shifts only are available in "shift one step" variants
13:38:06 <Vorpal> at least on the model I used
13:38:45 <Vorpal> used it, sure, my calculator has one of those in it
13:38:48 <nortti> soundnfury: does it have stack that can grow withous limitations?
13:39:05 <fizzie> olsner: I'm not sure if it has gone further than Supplemental Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 yet.
13:39:09 <soundnfury> fizzie: re NTSC (and PAL) luma-chroma interference, this effect was also able to be produced on the ZX Spectrum. My emulator (Spiffy) emulates this effect.
13:39:18 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, 83+ at least
13:39:27 <soundnfury> nortti: yes, because the stack is just in RAM
13:39:38 <fizzie> All the TI-(83-86) ones do.
13:39:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, uh, my desktop dues SSE4.2 or something iirc
13:39:53 <soundnfury> the Z80 does not have onboard memory (except for general purpose registers) - it's a CPU, not a microcontroller
13:40:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but I mean in number of S's.
13:40:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is an SSSE?
13:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did the extra S stand for?
13:40:27 <nortti> soundnfury: I know. but for example 6502 restricted stack size to 256 bytes. can I load random values to SP with it?
13:40:36 <soundnfury> but it's often used as one by tying it to SRAM
13:40:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Supplemental, like I just said.
13:40:48 <soundnfury> nortti: sure, SP can hold any 16-bit value
13:41:12 <nortti> soundnfury: are there any new z80 processors produced?
13:41:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I don't think they are going for more "SSE" currently. What with AVX and so on
13:41:34 <Vorpal> AMD is going for further SSEs though?
13:41:43 <soundnfury> nortti: I'm not sure. But you can still get 'em from Farnell, the price for 1 is pennies
13:42:09 <nortti> soundnfury: they have the built in DRAM refresher?
13:42:51 <Vorpal> soundnfury, that is a control register?
13:43:10 <soundnfury> DRAM refresh is performed in the 3rd and 4th T-states of the M1 cycle (opcode fetch)
13:43:11 <nortti> oh. well that sounds good. I might build computer around z80
13:43:21 <Vorpal> also is that price for one in bulk?
13:43:27 <Vorpal> can you even buy them separately?
13:44:05 <soundnfury> there also exist, btw, binary-compatible updated versions, the Z380 and eZ80
13:44:20 <soundnfury> but I know nothing about them except what it says on Wikipedia about them
13:44:21 <fizzie> I bought ten when visiting an electronics supply store once, just because. Haven't used them for anything.
13:44:28 <fizzie> The eZ80 is fancily kinda-sorta 24-bit.
13:45:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is that "kinda sorta"?
13:46:08 <soundnfury> Vorpal: the R register (8 bits) can be set with LD R,A. On every opcode fetch, while the instruction is being decoded, the Z80 pulls /MREQ and /RFSH low (but not /RD or /WR), places {I,R} on the address bus, and increments R (except that the high bit of R is not changed)
13:46:28 <soundnfury> (I is the 8-bit Interrupt Vector register)
13:47:09 <Vorpal> soundnfury, why the counter functionality?
13:47:36 <Vorpal> also do you mean this only happens while "LD R,A" is being decoded?
13:48:10 <Vorpal> soundnfury, also what stops this refreshing from going on when you are done with it?
13:48:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's incremented at every opcode fetch.
13:48:44 <Vorpal> it was "the instruction" that confused me
13:49:03 <Vorpal> thought it meant that specific one and that seemed strange
13:49:18 <Vorpal> so right, I guess you need to refresh it line by line
13:49:32 <Vorpal> but that doesn't say what stops it from doing this refreshing
13:49:46 <Vorpal> or are you meant to refresh all the time?
13:50:56 <Vorpal> at what sizes does DRAM become more cost effective than SRAM?
13:51:04 <fizzie> They run usually at single-digit megahertz speeds.
13:51:19 <soundnfury> Vorpal: a new Z80 is typically clocked at 20MHz these days
13:51:39 <Vorpal> soundnfury, so does that mean you have to continuously refresh the connected DRAM?
13:51:40 <soundnfury> when first designed, in '76, it was more likely to be 4MHz
13:51:40 <fizzie> The TI-86 one runs at six.
13:51:57 <Vorpal> soundnfury, because you didn't mention any flag that would turn off this refresh behaviour
13:52:09 <Vorpal> which would be preferred if you were using SRAM obviously
13:52:15 <soundnfury> Vorpal: there's nothing to turn it off
13:52:27 <Vorpal> okay, so it is refreshing all the time then
13:52:29 <soundnfury> but otoh you can just not connect /RFSH to your RAM
13:53:03 <fizzie> People have used values of R as pseudorandomness source, even though it's obviously not very random. I think bef86 uses it for ?.
13:53:19 <fizzie> It's random-ish if you're not executing anything too predictable.
13:53:25 <Vorpal> and why is the upper bit untouched
13:53:30 <Vorpal> is the address bus only 15 bits?
13:53:58 <Vorpal> soundnfury, then why is MSB untouched?
13:54:11 <soundnfury> but the assumption was that if people were using DRAM it would be in units that needed 7 bits to refresh
13:55:31 <Vorpal> so Z80 is almost 40 years old then
13:56:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure I have?
13:57:13 <Vorpal> I just didn't know exactly when it was first invented
13:57:29 <fizzie> "ZiLOG Application Notes are available describing how the Z80 CPU is interfaced with most popular dynamic RAM", to quote the manual. You could look at those.
13:58:10 <Vorpal> I have an x86 question. During boot, during BIOS/EFI, the RAM modules have not yet been started right? That is one of the things that BIOS/EFI does. So what does those early stages of BIOS/EFI use for memory?
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13:58:55 <fizzie> It's possible they made the top bit not be affected by the counter (but stay as whatever you loaded to it) so that you'd have a useful toggleable one-bit value available on the address bus at refresh time. Not that I know what it could be useful for.
13:59:48 <Vorpal> is there a few KB of ram on the north bridge or such?
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14:00:38 <Vorpal> and if yes, is that RAM available to the OS after the boot?
14:01:24 <fizzie> And possibly the very earliest instructions use registers only? Not that I've disassembled any BIOSi.
14:01:34 <Vorpal> I guess that could work
14:01:47 <Vorpal> but you are in 16-bit real mode then, not a lot of registers around
14:02:07 <Vorpal> you need to load memory configuration from CMOS and what not
14:02:51 <fizzie> It could just as well have some memory on the chipset, the chipset initialization is of course chipset-specific in any case.
14:03:32 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Vorpal: All the animals with appendages are bilaterians. <-- um starfish have 5 appendages.
14:04:08 <fizzie> I do recall something somewhere about not using subroutine calls in early BIOS code because there's no RAM available to point the stack at.
14:04:58 <fizzie> You could look at coreboot code, I suppose. :p
14:05:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm is the BIOS a nor-flash then so that it is byte addressable?
14:05:56 <oerjan> mind you they're not exactly known for fast movement
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14:06:37 <fizzie> oerjan: So what's the current record for the starfish 100-metre run these days?
14:06:53 <oerjan> i haven't kept track, sorry
14:07:21 <fizzie> "Most starfish cannot move quickly. However, some burrowing species from the genera Astropecten and Luidia are capable of rapid, creeping motion, "gliding" across the ocean floor[citation needed], which results from their pointed tubefeet adapted specially for excavating patches of sand.[citation needed]"
14:07:28 <fizzie> That's quite some citation neededness.
14:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Using the speed from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_speed_of_a_starfish
14:09:41 <fizzie> speed of starfish: "Input interpretation: [ sea stars | maximum speed on land ]"
14:09:57 <fizzie> Claims it's just 0.96 cm/min.
14:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so wait are we talking about the land or water 100m.
14:10:53 <fizzie> "100 metres / speed of starfish" gives... uh, 0.01292 seconds. Because this time it interpreted it as "StarAD | average orbit velocity".
14:11:34 <AnotherTest> Does wiki.answers.com answer the question why "Computer Science" is under technology rather than under "Science"?
14:12:19 <fizzie> That's the weirdest. If I just use "speed of starfish", it'll go "Assuming "starfish" is a species specification | Use as a spacecraft instead", but in the "100 metres /" version it goes for the spacecraft and doesn't give the disambiguation option.
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14:12:43 <olsner> "Use as a spacecraft instead" should be available as an option more often
14:12:53 <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed on land" does produce a result of 170 hours.
14:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> imagine, if you will, a world in which every object has a dual function as a spacecraft
14:13:33 <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed in sea" produces 5.4*10^-8 %h (mass percent hours).
14:13:43 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: indeed!
14:14:06 <olsner> for example, the coffee brewer power button would have off/on/spacecraft instead of just off/on
14:14:16 <oerjan> fizzie: try adding "species" somewhere?
14:14:19 <olsner> or maybe spacecraft/off/on
14:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> if one felt like going for a ride around mars over breakfast one need look no further than one's toaster
14:14:40 <olsner> but getting coffee *and* space travel at the same time seems pretty useful
14:14:47 <fizzie> oerjan: I already got it with the "sea stars maximum speed on land" thing.
14:14:59 <oerjan> fizzie: well they're sea creatures, duh
14:15:16 <oerjan> (even if they can presumably survive for a while out of it)
14:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> you wouldn't have to pretend pencils are rocket ships, they actually would be!
14:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (please tell me i'm not the only one who pretends pencils are rocket ships)
14:15:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, as I mentioned, in sea the 100-metre float happens to take 5.4*10^-8 mass percent hours.
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14:15:59 <spirity> are spacecrafts also equipped with the spacecraft mode?
14:16:05 <spirity> this might be an important feature for them to have.
14:16:08 <fizzie> oerjan: The input interpretation for that is (100 metres / [sea stars | maximum speed on land]) * [elements | ocean abundance].
14:16:43 <fizzie> Ah, it's "maximum speed in the water" that it wants.
14:17:02 <fizzie> Result: (insufficient data available). Grr.
14:17:10 <fizzie> What sort of singularity is this, anyway.
14:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> do you agree with oerjan that quintopia is stupid and bad and smel sfuny
14:19:20 <quintopia> oerjan: is that what you truly believe?
14:19:31 <olsner> spirity: no, but spacecraft must have coffee making functionality
14:19:45 <oerjan> of course not, i have _no_ opinion on your smell whatsoever
14:20:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's Gregor who has no nose. pay attention.
14:21:16 <oerjan> what i don't have is a quintopia smell sample
14:21:21 <quintopia> he has a nose silly. what do you think holds up his AR glasses?
14:21:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed in sea" produces 5.4*10^-8 %h (mass percent hours). <-- wtf is "mass percent hour"?
14:21:30 * Phantom_Hoover realises that a google image search of Gregor will not in fact result in images of Gregor
14:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (http://www.aiwaz.net/uploads/gallery/gregor-baci-1292-mid.jpg is the second hit FWIW)
14:22:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: try adding "richards" hth
14:22:08 <spirity> Phantom_Hoover: have you tried Roger G? I'm almost certain this is his alternate alias.
14:22:21 <oerjan> but beware of the foot
14:22:26 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> (please tell me i'm not the only one who pretends pencils are rocket ships) <-- I don't pretend that, maybe other people do though, who knows
14:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/images/graduate_students/gkrichar.jpg
14:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> now, if Gregor has a nose it stands to reason you do not
14:23:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: obviously photoshopped, you can tell by the pixels
14:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i think not, my nociceptors are highly reliable
14:23:45 <quintopia> what do pain sensors have to do with noses?
14:23:57 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
14:24:25 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i think not, my nociceptors are highly reliable <-- your what?
14:24:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, but the unit conversions table says 5.4e-8 %h is the same as 1.937 microseconds, or 1.937e-6 megajoules per megavolt ampere, or 1.937e-6 megaohm microfahrads, or 1.937 kilograms per meter second megapascal. If that helps.
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14:24:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it doesn't work on noses then
14:25:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is one fast starfish then
14:25:27 <Vorpal> 1.937 µs to move 100 meters?
14:26:06 <fizzie> Yes, though I often use kilograms per meter second megapascals when talking about seconds, it feels more natural that way.
14:26:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway those are some crazy units in general, apart from the microseconds
14:26:28 <Vorpal> hm what is the definition of pascal?
14:26:28 <oerjan> quintopia: now i'm imagining a nose with fangs
14:26:41 <oerjan> and glasses, for some reason
14:26:52 <Vorpal> well that explains how it works then
14:27:04 <Vorpal> they just cancel each other
14:27:16 <quintopia> actually arent nerve endings solely responsible for nociception?
14:27:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: N/m^2. Or kg/(m*s^2).
14:27:25 <quintopia> they can do lots of other stuff too
14:27:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure how you get from 5.4e-8 %h to 1.937 microseconds though
14:27:27 <HackEgo> 25.509900639101595185 m s^-1 (velocity)
14:28:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, where did the "mass" bit of "mass percent hour" go btw?
14:28:14 <Vorpal> I don't see it in the unit
14:28:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose "mass percent" is maybe dimensionless.
14:28:24 <fizzie> Since it's just, you know, a percentage.
14:28:35 <fizzie> So "mass percent hours" is still time.
14:28:39 <fizzie> Just a nonsensical time.
14:28:43 <Vorpal> well then that is easy enough to get to seconds
14:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, so a percent hour is 1/100 of an hour
14:29:42 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I agree with "mass percent" being dimensionless though
14:30:01 <Vorpal> shouldn't there be N involved somehow?
14:30:09 <fizzie> If you start with "mass percent hours" and end up with "seconds", "mass percent" can't really be anything else than 1.
14:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, was microseconds though
14:31:20 <fizzie> Pressing "details" reveals that it's doing (100 m)/(5.8e-4 km/h)*(3.1e-10 %).
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14:31:55 <Vorpal> You know what I hated most about physics and chemistry in high school? The unit conversions.
14:32:04 <fizzie> 3.1e-10% being the median abundance of different chemical elements in the ocean, based on 110 values.
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14:33:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, kg or mg or to g to make a certain formula work, values given in minutes having to be turned into seconds
14:33:38 <fizzie> If someone added "in sea" to a query, *my* first reaction wouldn't have been to go fetch a table of chemical element abundance, and then take the median of all 110 entries.
14:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I mostly only did that in chemistry; physics only really does km/m.
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14:34:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of chemistry: mole. Don't like that one bit
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14:34:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, median? Not average?
14:34:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, what do you call the unit in English
14:34:45 <Vorpal> thought you added an e
14:34:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what I said then
14:35:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Median is *an* average, if you ask some people. But median, not the mean, yes.
14:35:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but the function to compute the mean is often called "avg" or such in software
14:35:57 <Vorpal> I think my calculator does that too
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14:37:07 <Vorpal> btw, why is it that computer based calculators are inferior do using a TI-83+ even when you want to use the value on the computer. Like if I'm chatting in IRC and need to calculate something, I'd much rather use my graph calculator than run a calculator program on the computer
14:37:22 <Vorpal> even if I have to retype the values rather than copy them
14:37:44 <Vorpal> I feel that computer based calculator programs are clunkier
14:37:51 <Vorpal> but why that is, I don't know
14:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd rather use a CAS TbH, but calculators are much more ergonomic.
14:38:08 <Jafet> Only the ultimate nerd works on calculator programs
14:38:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure I'd use a CAS if the problem is complex enough
14:38:14 <nortti> I rather use dc than my early nineties scientific calculator that can compute tanget of 90 degrees
14:38:23 <Vorpal> Jafet, I written a few programs in TI-BASIC
14:38:52 <fizzie> I usually just run a quick bc, and feel ashamed I didn't use dc like a real man would have.
14:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, so I'm guessing you've never used dc for... anything beyond basic arithmetic?
14:39:11 <nortti> Jafet: no. ultimate nerds run unix on their calculators
14:39:14 <Vorpal> nortti, I once learned dc and wrote an increadibly complex bit of one-liner in it. Then I came back a few weeks later and went "wtf"
14:39:27 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: why do you think so?
14:40:12 <Jafet> I use mathematica, it's comparable to eating caviar with a toothpick
14:40:20 <Vorpal> yeah using a TI-83+ is just easier than messing around with something like the gnome calculator or what not
14:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I used Mathematica but then I couldn't get the keygen to work
14:40:48 <fizzie> I actually use Octave quite asily, too. I don't know what the equivalent analogue would be.
14:40:53 <Jafet> Gnome is what happens when HCI nerds decide to screw everything and troll their users
14:41:10 <Vorpal> I have mathematica installed. I use it when my TI-83+ can't do the job
14:41:25 <Vorpal> Jafet, well the same thing applies to the windows calculator
14:41:30 <fizzie> I go to Octave when bc can't do the job. :p
14:41:45 <Jafet> Yes, they troll users by imitating Windows
14:41:50 <spirity> I use frink, or like.. ghci
14:41:53 <fizzie> Or when it involved a small amount of something programmatic. bc's syntax for that is quite horrible.
14:41:55 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: not sed?
14:42:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, bc /has/ syntax for that?
14:42:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, m4 is terrible
14:42:32 <Vorpal> dc is also kind of terribke
14:42:37 <spirity> my knowledge of perl prevents me from ever learning sed beyond its s command.
14:42:40 <nortti> isn't bc just compiler that compiles code to dc?
14:42:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can define functions, and have for/while loops.
14:43:38 <fizzie> Granted, Octave/Matlab "REPL" is pretty horrible too, especially when it comes to defining functions on the fly.
14:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> According to WP these days dc tends to use the bc libraries.
14:43:50 <Jafet> Isn't GNU dc turing complete?
14:43:59 <Vorpal> hm is there a TI-83+ emulator for Android. That would be kind of neat. Or at least a calculator with similar functionality
14:44:01 <Jafet> Knowing GNU, it has to be
14:44:17 <Jafet> I'm surprised find isn't turing complete yet
14:44:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a TI-8x (it does most of them) emulator installed on the N900. Haven't used it much, though.
14:44:24 <Jafet> That would actually be useful for me
14:44:46 <spirity> I find find to be strangely limited.
14:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe you could do something with, like, recursive symlinks?
14:44:47 <Vorpal> though my calculator's keypad is about the same size as the entire screen on my phone
14:44:57 <spirity> I can't search for files with a given mime type easily, for example.
14:44:59 <Vorpal> so the exact same button layout isn't going to work
14:45:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, on that small screen, can't be easy to use
14:45:13 <spirity> I have to plug in a custom script via -exec that runs xdg-mime or something like that.
14:45:22 <Jafet> The symlinks are static
14:45:38 <Jafet> I could -delete them with -prune maybe
14:45:50 <fizzie> It's called "AlmostTI", and it does TI-85, -86, -82, -83, -83+, -73 and -83+SE. There's also buttons for -84+ and -84+SE, but those are grayed out.
14:46:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, there's the stylus.
14:46:07 <coppro> I should never miss two weeks of class again
14:46:14 * coppro will do it anyway because he's stupid
14:46:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, still, that is quite a low res screen iirc?
14:46:33 <Vorpal> if you want to see the entire calculator on the screen
14:46:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: 800x480, it's perfectly adequate for that.
14:46:59 <fizzie> You can see individual pixels of the screen, and read the keys.
14:47:29 <fizzie> It's also apparently not too bad with just my usual fingernail-poking strategy without the stylus.
14:47:52 <Vorpal> unless someone knows a good graphing calculator for Android, maybe I'll make one myself
14:48:00 <Vorpal> can't be too hard, surely
14:48:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the skin in the thing is a render, or just a retouched photo. It looks a bit too clean to be exactly real.
14:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> 2 weeks later: <Vorpal> IT'S ON FIRE THIS IS VERY HARD
14:48:57 <fizzie> I suppose it could even be some vectors modeled after a photo.
14:49:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh come on, it is not hard, just extensive
14:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't plan to implement TI-BASIC
14:49:37 <fizzie> Hey, there's a program called "FOO" in my emulated TI-86.
14:50:11 <fizzie> It has just "Lbl ABCDEFGH" and "Goto ABCDEFGH", in that order, in it.
14:50:18 <fizzie> I'm sorta baffled as to the purpose of it.
14:50:55 <fizzie> I ran it before looking at it, and spent a minute watching the "working" indicator go.
14:51:07 <fizzie> Maybe that was the purpose, to confuse myself a year later.
14:51:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm one issue though... what parser generators are there for java?
14:51:53 <fizzie> I've tried out a couple, though I've forgotten the names.
14:51:55 <Vorpal> flex style ones I mean
14:51:58 <fizzie> There are a whole lot, of course.
14:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ah yes i will use my extensive knowledge both of parser generators and java to answer
14:52:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, any good ones
14:52:38 <Vorpal> anyway I need to leave, food is ready
14:53:11 <fizzie> There's that antlr thing, the javacc one, and sablecc.
14:53:15 <fizzie> Those I remember offhand.
14:53:21 <fizzie> But there are very many.
14:53:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's the pits.
14:54:08 <fizzie> Our compiler course used one of the ones that have two C's in the name.
14:54:55 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, JavaCC is quite lex/yacc-inspired when it comes to syntax, though it's an old and not-fancy-at-all.
14:55:50 <spirity> the only truly powerful parser is handrolled C code. :>
14:56:07 <fizzie> Oh, and then there's Coco/R.
14:56:13 <fizzie> That one was quite multi-language.
14:56:42 <nortti> spirity: well it isn't that fun to write. especialy if you're making a c compiler
14:56:54 <spirity> you don't know what fun is.
14:57:28 <soundnfury> of course, to write an Intercal compiler you'd need yacccc (yet another compiler compiler compiler compiler)
14:57:50 <fizzie> SableCC (IIRC) produces typed AST classes and tree-walker base classes for your grammar automatically, which can be a good thing if you're "into" that kinda thing.
14:57:51 <nortti> spirity: I have done that. it isn't fun but it was easier than trying to figure out yacc and lex
14:58:06 <fizzie> JavaCC just has yaccy actions, and I think some sort of separate AST thing that's purely optional.
14:59:05 <fizzie> (I'm sure there's also something very modern and fancy available. All these things existed already years ago.)
14:59:08 <soundnfury> nortti: I'd have to agree with you there
14:59:51 <soundnfury> while parser generators are a great idea, yacc is fugly
15:00:22 <fizzie> Even the yacc-inspired Java offerings aren't perhaps so... historical.
15:00:30 <soundnfury> and once you've handrolled a few parsers, it becomes ingrained enough that it's easy to do
15:01:11 <soundnfury> plus you learn to design languages that are trivial to parse ;)
15:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, BtW based on the fact that that lecturer you mentioned earlier works at Cambridge I assume you attend there.
15:03:17 <nortti> speaking of which I love writing forth and lisp parsers
15:07:14 <soundnfury> but I'm glad I did, because Churchill is *awesome* ;)
15:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> My entire reason for going was that it's next to the maths campus.
15:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a friend who applied to St John's for the same reason, not realising that it's the back garden that's next to the maths campus.
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15:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The closest I was able to get to an explanation was that they're stuck-up, which my friend said wasn't unjustified based on what he saw.
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15:38:20 <Vorpal> <spirity> the only truly powerful parser is handrolled C code. :> <-- need java in this case though
15:39:09 <Vorpal> <fizzie> SableCC (IIRC) produces typed AST classes and tree-walker base classes for your grammar automatically, which can be a good thing if you're "into" that kinda thing. <-- might be useful, probably not so much for my use case
15:39:50 <Vorpal> anyway I'm only going for lex, not yacc
15:39:57 <Vorpal> I don't plan on compiling the result
15:41:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "hampture"?
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15:51:31 <itidus21> insight into my ignorant mind, reads "wtf is X", considers replying "the question is, what isn't X?"
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15:52:22 <itidus21> spends the extra time to consider how it is much easier to ask for a member than a set
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16:12:43 <mroman> puh. It took me 30 minutes to figure out how a while loop in my own language works o_O
16:13:07 <soundnfury> it took me 3 hours to write a while loop in mine (Eniuq)
16:14:14 <mroman> ri{0\\/1.-}{1.-}w!vv reads an integer n and produces n-1 zeroes.
16:16:24 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque#Example_programs
16:18:19 <soundnfury> In Eniuq that's impossible. But you can read an integer n and produce n capital Is:
16:18:21 <soundnfury> ?1-"I~1-~84*3+f!1+4*5d3**+84*3+Dk84*3+"48*2+D48*2+O`Oo
16:18:42 <soundnfury> although this program fails if you pass 0 or 1 as the integer
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16:21:28 <mroman> What do you mean by impossible?
16:22:07 <mroman> If I pass a zero to mine it never terminates :)
16:22:16 <mroman> because everything except 0 is true
16:22:41 <mroman> Unless GHCs Int wraps around sometime it never terminates.
16:23:05 <soundnfury> mroman: it's impossible to output the character 0 in Eniuq
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16:24:06 <soundnfury> you can't output anything that's an operator, which is any of 0123456789+-*/&|^!?~dDfkKoO
16:25:03 <oerjan> the only language that becomes less powerful the more operators you add
16:26:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, project to create a self-contained underwater hamster enclosure.
16:29:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... what about oxygen?
16:29:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also is this a reference to Rapture from Bioshock then?
16:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, 'self-contained' means the enclosure itself is underwater.
16:30:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but you need oxygen for the hamster in it
16:30:10 <Vorpal> I want a biosphere for it
16:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well he did have very good results growing plants in it, to the extent he had to take it out of the water to clear the massive overgrowth.
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16:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Self-sufficient oxygen production is impractical, though.
16:34:15 <olsner> http://www.savagechickens.com/2011/02/tree-astronaut-to-the-rescue.html
16:34:33 <soundnfury> the only trouble is, it's salty, so when you try to electrolyse it you'll get loads of poisonous poisonous chlorine
16:34:52 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: the hamsters run in wheels to power the electrolysis, /obviously/ ;)
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17:35:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, um. ANTLR is recursive decent?
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17:36:55 <fizzie> Not sure how much it matters.
17:37:01 <fizzie> Just stick to LL(1) grammars or something.
17:38:08 <Gregor> ... what's wrong with recursive descent?
17:39:31 <fizzie> Gregor: You can't write left-recursive rules, I guess, even if those might feel natural to you.
17:40:38 <Gregor> fizzie: Direct left-recursion (A=Ab) is a trivial optimization for a half-decent parser generator, and more complicated left recursion is basically nonexistent.
17:41:14 <Taneb> It occurs to me that I've only ever been in one Ikea
17:41:30 <Gregor> Taneb: Beat me, I've never been in an IKEA.
17:42:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Alternatively/additionally, you might have e.g. religious reasons for wanting a LALR parser.
17:42:35 <fizzie> I don't think I've been in more than two.
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17:44:11 <fizzie> There are only five in Finland, and three of the five are somewhere elsewhere.
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17:44:34 <Gregor> There is exactly one reason to go to IKEA: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10193197/
17:44:35 <Taneb> There are 10 in the UK, and those 10 represent about 18% of furniture purchases
17:45:03 <Taneb> Gregor, you mean other than to steal the pencils?
17:45:39 <fizzie> There's an IKEA right across the border from Tornio (Tornio/Haparanda are Finnish/Swedish towns adjecent across a river, and they form basically one town in practice) and I'm given to understand that the Finnish locals visit it quite often.
17:45:55 <fizzie> Also I understand many people go to IKEA for the meatballs.
17:46:07 <Gregor> fizzie: Err, don't Finnland and Sweden have different currency?
17:46:38 <Gregor> Isn't it… kinda complicated to hop over the river to eat some meatballs and pay for them with a currency you don't have?
17:46:39 <fizzie> Gregor: (It's also Finland.)
17:47:06 <fizzie> I assume if you live in Tornio/Haparanda, you quite often have both currencies handy. Anyway, you can pay with plastic.
17:47:19 <Gregor> Ohyeah, I suppose it's 2012, innit.
17:47:33 <Taneb> It feels weird, being in the Future and all
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17:48:13 <fizzie> "Today the two towns are closely interconnected economically and socially; they constitute a transborder conurbation marketed as "EuroCity". Since Sweden and Finland are in different time zones, Haparanda is one hour behind Tornio. This allows a unique spectacle on New Years Eve, when people can welcome in the new year twice. Since 2005 the cities have rebranded themselves as ...
17:48:20 <fizzie> ... "Haparanda-Tornio" in Sweden, and "Tornio-Haparanda" in Finland."
17:48:32 <fizzie> I don't know if that even means that the establishments on Sweden's side actually accept euros.
17:48:32 <olsner> fizzie: are you from tornio?
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17:48:45 <fizzie> olsner: No, I've just heard about it.
17:48:52 <fizzie> Well, and driven through it.
17:48:53 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Ohyeah, I suppose it's 2012, innit. <-- yeah, though looking at the cards in US you wouldn't believe it was
17:49:04 <Vorpal> come on, you don't have chips in your cards widely yet
17:49:07 <Gregor> Neh neh neh we Europeans are so in the future
17:49:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, no we are not in the future, we are in the present. It is YOU guys who are in the past.
17:49:44 <Taneb> We're so far in the future British people have started winning the Tour de France
17:50:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, has that ever happened?
17:50:19 <olsner> Taneb: but not yet so far into the future that you've solved the two faucets problem
17:50:25 <Taneb> Vorpal, yeah, yesterday
17:50:37 <fizzie> Oh, did it end already?
17:50:47 <fizzie> I was wondering if that Paris thing was in fact the final thing.
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17:50:57 <fizzie> I had sort of a vague notion that one end of the route was in Paris.
17:51:07 <Taneb> Yeah, they got there yesterday?
17:51:14 <fizzie> There were three TV channels providing the same live coverage of the Tour yesterday.
17:51:22 <fizzie> I guess Belgians are interested about it too.
17:51:25 <itidus21> the good news is that a quickly changing society won't stagnate very long
17:52:16 <fizzie> (Also "transborder conurbation" sounds funny.)
17:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the word "conurbation" sounds funny by itself
17:53:51 <Taneb> There's at place on the Dutch-Belgian border that's weird
17:54:21 <fizzie> Gregor: The Finnish website of the (Swedish) IKEA in Haparanda confirms that you can pay with both Swedish paper money as well as euros (though banknotes only, no coins; you get the change back in SEK), in addition to cards.
17:54:53 <zzo38> Does this make a monad? data M t x = M0 x | M1 (t (M t) x); join (M1 x) = M1 (x >>= lift);
17:55:28 <fizzie> We crossed the Belgium/Luxembourg border at "Sterpenich", which sounds a bit silly too. (YMMV.)
17:55:38 <Taneb> zzo38, only if t (M t) is a functor?
17:56:11 <zzo38> Taneb: But that is already one of the conditions that lift exists
17:56:21 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a (t :: (* -> *) -> * -> *). (MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a
17:56:35 <fizzie> Taneb: What place is the weird place?
17:57:12 <Taneb> It's got a bubbly border
17:57:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how can you get your change in SEK, it probably won't add up
17:58:05 <Vorpal> due to inexact conversion ratios
17:58:13 <Taneb> fizzie, quite possibly
17:58:23 <fizzie> Taneb: At least it looks really silly in Google Maps.
17:58:38 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/5cQn
17:59:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, that domain saved you 3 letters, what is the point
17:59:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what comes out when you press "short URL" in the "permalink to this place" in Google Maps.
17:59:57 <fizzie> I mean, the alternative would've been something like https://maps.google.com/?ll=51.430896,4.921188&spn=0.092361,0.263844&t=m&z=13
17:59:59 <zzo38> The dual may go data W t x = W x (t (W t) x); duplicate (W x y) = W (W x y) (y =>> lower);
18:00:01 <Vorpal> anyway, that place has quite a bit of nesting it seems
18:00:51 <fizzie> "Baarle-Hertog consists of 26 separate pieces of land. Apart from the main piece (called Zondereigen) located north of the Belgian town of Merksplas, there are 22 Belgian exclaves in the Netherlands and three other pieces on the Dutch-Belgian border. There are also six Dutch exclaves located within the largest Belgian exclave, one within the second-largest, and an eighth within Zondereigen. ...
18:00:57 <fizzie> ... The smallest Belgian parcel, H12, measures 2,632 square metres.
18:01:01 <fizzie> The border's complexity results from a number of equally complex medieval treaties, agreements, land-swaps and sales between the Lords of Breda and the Dukes of Brabant."
18:01:03 <zzo38> I have some idea today: A simultaneous chessboxing like card game.
18:01:15 <fizzie> The similar kink in the Sweden/Finland border is not at all as funny.
18:01:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a similiar situation there?
18:01:42 <Vorpal> I thought it just went straight through Haparanda?
18:01:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not there; the place in Åland with the funny shape.
18:02:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's been discussed on channel. It's the place where they drew the border and then discovered that lighthouse had been built on the wrong side.
18:02:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't Åland all Finnish?
18:02:22 <Vorpal> got a google maps link?
18:02:23 <fizzie> Well, the island between Åland and Sweden.
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18:03:59 <fizzie> Well, this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4rket
18:04:20 <fizzie> There's one of Wikipedia's general-purpose geolinks from there.
18:04:43 <fizzie> For some reason, though, Google Maps is not showing me the Finland/Sweden border.
18:04:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it goes a bit further in on the Finnish side there, is that to compensate for the lost land?
18:05:11 <fizzie> "There is a lighthouse on the Finnish side of the current border, which has been unmanned and automated since 1979. When it was built by the Russians and Finns in 1885 there were no clear maps of the island. After the completion of the lighthouse, it was discovered that it had been built on the Swedish part of the island.
18:05:16 <fizzie> As a result, the border was adjusted in 1985 so that the lighthouse is now located on Finnish territory.[4] The adjustment was carried out such that no net transfer of territory occurred, and the ownership of the coastline was unchanged so as not to interfere with each country's fishing rights."
18:05:29 <fizzie> I suppose it tries to keep the land area constant.
18:05:59 <Vorpal> why did they put a länsgräns on it
18:06:16 <fizzie> That I don't really know.
18:06:24 <fizzie> It's not exactly a terribly interesting island.
18:06:58 <fizzie> I suppose it might help navigationally in knowing where the border goes.
18:07:04 <fizzie> In the pre-GPS days, anyway.
18:07:11 <fizzie> I don't think the border is exactly patrolled there.
18:07:35 <fizzie> Not that it's patrolled e.g. in Tornio-Haparanda either, we just drove over a bridge there and that was it.
18:08:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what did you expect for an internal Schengen border?
18:09:21 <fizzie> During our previous Finland-Sweden-Denmark-Germany-Netherlands-Belgium-France-Germany-Denmark-Sweden-Finland train trip, absolutely nobody checked our passports.
18:09:34 <zzo38> What would you think of simultaneous chessboxing like card game?
18:09:39 <fizzie> Even though the Interrail tickets explicitly say the passports will be verified on every train trip.
18:09:46 <fizzie> Since the tickets are personal.
18:10:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway about that place in Belgium and the Netherlands, you said the smallest region was a few square meters. Was that inside a house or outside?
18:11:02 <Vorpal> and what sort of significance does it carry
18:11:03 <fizzie> Few thousand square metres.
18:11:12 <fizzie> , is not a decimal point in English Wikipedia.
18:11:28 <fizzie> It's still pretty small.
18:11:44 <Vorpal> a few square meters would have been funny
18:12:19 <fizzie> According to Google satellite map, the border goes right through some buildings in oblique angles.
18:12:49 <fizzie> I'm sure one of those houses has a case where your toilet is in another country.
18:13:00 <spirity> , is a silly decimal point
18:13:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it actually go like that, or is it just that google doesn't have high enough precision in the data?
18:13:24 <fizzie> spirity: Sorry, decimal mark.
18:13:49 <Vorpal> spirity, well, Swedes and Finns use it as a decimal mark
18:13:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't really know. The Wikipedia article's map doesn't show buildings.
18:14:12 <spirity> Vorpal: yes, it's pretty common actually.
18:14:23 <spirity> the Spanish-speaking world uses , for decimals.
18:14:23 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg at least they've marked the border there.
18:15:13 <fizzie> CERN campus is half on France's side, half on Switzerland's side, and I don't think the border was marked in any way.
18:16:06 <Vorpal> also I don't need to write my own graphing calculator for my phone. I found a TI-89 emulator
18:16:12 <Vorpal> isn't that the top model?
18:16:20 <fizzie> It had some CASsy things.
18:16:31 <fizzie> They have a TI-92 too, IIRC, but it's a different form factor.
18:16:32 <Vorpal> I know one of them could
18:17:00 <fizzie> 89 and 92 are the m68k-based ones.
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18:17:22 <fizzie> Also not allowed in exams in Finland, due to being too advanced.
18:17:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, same in Sweden
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18:18:26 <zzo38> They are not allowed in exams here either, although being too advanced is not the only reason for it (it is one of them); TI-92 is also disallowed because it has a QWERTY keyboard is another reason for it to be disallowed.
18:18:31 <fizzie> IIRC, they made the TI-89 basically by taking the TI-92 and mangling it into the vertical form factor of the "TI-8x" series.
18:18:40 <fizzie> And discontinued the TI-92 while there were at it.
18:18:59 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway. This was in 1998, based on wiki's infoboxen.
18:19:31 <fizzie> "In the United States, the TI-89 is allowed by the College Board on all calculator-permitted tests, including the SAT, some SAT Subject Tests and the AP Calculus, Chemistry, and Statistics exams. However, the calculator is banned from use on the ACT, the PLAN, and in some classrooms. In many testing situations, the TI-89 and TI-89 Titanium, along with the HP-49 series, are the most powerful ...
18:19:37 <fizzie> ... and function-rich graphing calculators that are permitted: the TI-92 series, with otherwise comparable features, have QWERTY keyboards that result in them being classified as computer devices rather than calculators."
18:19:59 <fizzie> Unless I'm mistaken, our ban was more about the algebra features than just a QWERTY keyboard, so I'd think the TI-89 is not allowed either.
18:20:22 <zzo38> At least in my area I think the ban is for both reasons
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18:23:36 <fizzie> Starting from 2012, they've decided to allow the TI-Nspire CX CAS.
18:23:42 <fizzie> Which does symbolic algebra stuffs.
18:24:32 <fizzie> It does integrals and derivatives and equation-solving and whatnot.
18:24:47 -!- ert3go has joined.
18:24:58 <fizzie> At least TI's page claims that, haven't found the official list yet.
18:25:10 <spirity> I think the TI-89 does all of those things as well?
18:25:59 <fizzie> But of course TI is highlighting the more expensive model.
18:26:06 <spirity> it's funny how you need these expensive calculators for algebra classes.
18:26:34 <spirity> then when you get into upper level college mathematics its "yeah... you don't need a calculator for this class."
18:26:48 <fizzie> This must be a really new thing, since the other TI guide I found is very explicit about only allowing numeric integration/derivation and such.
18:27:36 <Vorpal> spirity, I found that generally having a TI-83+ is nice. I suck at basic arithmetic in my head. I can do symbol handling just fine. But don't ask me was 279+148 is :P
18:28:09 * spirity was making sure he can still do arithmetic.
18:28:19 <fizzie> Is this official instruction PDF from the Matriculation Examination Board written in... Comic Sans?
18:28:22 <spirity> I'm weird though because I work backwards from the way you learn how to do it
18:28:26 <spirity> I start with 2 + 1 on the left side
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18:28:40 <fizzie> $ pdffonts Downloads/matematiikka.pdf
18:28:40 <fizzie> name type emb sub uni object ID
18:28:40 <fizzie> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
18:28:40 <fizzie> LLRLKW+TimesNewRomanPSMT TrueType yes yes yes 93 0
18:28:41 <fizzie> VNPTUC+ComicSansMS TrueType yes yes yes 94 0
18:28:46 <fizzie> That's so professional.
18:29:41 <spirity> so I do 2 + 1, then 4 + 7, carry the 10 to the previous calculation, then 8+9, carry the 10 to the previous calculation
18:29:43 <fizzie> And it says that "all calculators are allowed". Wowza.
18:29:49 <fizzie> Well, times change, I guess.
18:30:05 <spirity> unfortunatly that means sometimes I have to "double carry" in reverse, which is a bit more difficult than the standard method.
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18:31:18 <mroman> lucky you @symbol handling
18:33:17 <AnotherTest> mroman: where can I download a burlesque interpreter/compiler?
18:33:32 <mroman> AnotherTest: https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
18:36:03 <mroman> It doesn't support every builtin function I want it to support yet.
18:37:26 <mroman> I've tested every function by hand and so far they worked to my satisfaction.
18:37:50 <mroman> I haven't implemented support for automatic testing yet.
18:39:19 <zzo38> The BBS door games do not seem to test whether or not your terminal can display the club suit
18:39:56 <zzo38> It may not be testable on all terminals either, but some may be able to report the cursor position
18:41:11 <mroman> AnotherTest: Are you considering using Burlesque for something?
18:44:15 <Taneb> I've got a new computer, but due to me not doing the research, it has an nVidia graphics card
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18:45:49 <fizzie> Oh no we drove it off. :/
18:47:20 <mroman> Well, "recommended OS?" is a question you just shouldn't ask ;)
18:48:07 <zzo38> Use whatever OS you want
18:48:08 <fizzie> Reccomended OS even more so.
18:48:26 <zzo38> Dual boot if you want
18:48:49 <fizzie> Dual boot and triple compile.
18:48:54 <mroman> record co-mended operating system.
18:49:06 <fizzie> Yeah, it was just double.
18:49:32 <mroman> "It records your (co-)mending! Only $0.50."
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18:54:11 <Taneb> First off, I can't spell some words
18:55:32 <Taneb> Second off, I'm probably gonna trial-boot Windows 7/Ubuntu/Haiku
18:56:22 <nortti> olsner: Warp 3 or Warp 4?
18:56:57 <Taneb> nortti, if it's triple, then it's double-boot for two
18:57:09 <olsner> nortti: 4 obviously, it has built-in voice recognition
18:57:14 <Taneb> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trial#Adjective_2
18:57:51 <nortti> by the way reccomend a OS for me
18:58:10 <Taneb> The first OS I learnt to yous
18:58:27 <nortti> Taneb: is it available without IE?
18:58:34 <Gregor> Da first OS youse learnt to youse
18:59:01 <Taneb> I think in sounds, and stammer and slur on the inside
18:59:28 <nortti> olsner: and also do you have any experience with OS/2 2.0? I'm getting install floppy pack for it
18:59:43 <Taneb> I don't even have a floppy drive
18:59:58 <Taneb> Well, I do, but it's on the '98 computer
19:00:10 <Taneb> Which doesn't have a mouse or a screen
19:00:27 <zzo38> How can you operate it without a screen?
19:00:41 <zzo38> Can you connect a terminal to a serial port or something like that?
19:00:48 <Taneb> It's sitting in my bedroom doing nothing
19:03:20 <olsner> nortti: not sure if I've ever used that, I suspect that Warp 3 was my first OS/2 experience
19:03:57 <nortti> using my server floppy drive is bit clunky sometimes. I usually execute nc -l -p 1234 > name.img on my main machine, ssh to my sever and execxute nc 192.168.255.3 1234 < /dev/fd0
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19:05:59 <mroman> People should stop using fib as an abbreviation for fibonacci.
19:06:27 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:06:30 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
19:06:42 <lambdabot> *** "Fib" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
19:06:42 <lambdabot> Fib \Fib\, n. [Prob. fr. fable; cf. Prov. E. fibble-fabble
19:06:42 <lambdabot> A falsehood; a lie; -- used euphemistically.
19:08:02 <mroman> A function named fib can actually do whatever it wants and still satisfy its name.
19:11:48 <mroman> > let fib = fix (error) in fib
19:11:49 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
19:12:59 <Gregor> > let fib n = "The fib function computes the nth value in the Fibonacci sequence."
19:13:00 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let fib n = "The fib function computes the nth value in...
19:13:09 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't remember my Haskell at all 8-D
19:14:31 <mroman> > let fib n = "This is the " ++ show n ++ "th fibonacci number" in fib 8
19:14:33 <lambdabot> "This is the 8th fibonacci number"
19:14:58 <Gregor> Now it always lies 8-D
19:15:06 <Gregor> (Well, OK, within that let expression it always lies)
19:15:23 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in take 10 fib
19:15:38 <Gregor> But at least it can calculate the thirth Fibonacci number.
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19:16:23 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in fib !! 30
19:16:36 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in fib !! 90
19:17:20 <zzo38> Gregor: Why you did not remember Haskell?
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> Could not find module `Control.Monad.State':
19:18:31 <mroman> Control.Monad.State comes with the haskell-platform actually.
19:18:35 <mroman> Which is recommended to install
19:18:37 <shachaf> kmc: Who said I don't even have a television? I just said I don't own one.
19:18:41 <zzo38> I think it is in mtl
19:19:08 <mroman> AnotherTest: The library itself is probably "monad-state"
19:19:16 <mroman> cabal install monad-state
19:19:59 <AnotherTest> don't have cabal, I just did apt-get install haskell-platform
19:20:40 <AnotherTest> The reason was that I recently switched to debian, but I didn't install that package
19:22:20 <mroman> haskell-platform should contain Control.Monad.State
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19:25:53 <mroman> Then you can just go with ghci and use putStr $ runProgram "{{ab cd}{ef gh}}\\[" ""
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19:29:34 <mroman> or echo "1 2 3 4" | runhaskell main.hs examples/sumNum.blsq of course
19:31:08 <AnotherTest> can't it work as a stand-alone executable?
19:31:49 <mroman> ghc --make main.hs -o burlesque
19:32:05 <AnotherTest> I did that but, maybe you should allow something like
19:34:47 <AnotherTest> Using files is good for me though, I can just use Crtl + D when I want the output
19:38:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: in Stlang you would use { comment } $, how do you (if you can) add comments in Burleque?
19:38:39 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/0ffb922dca49343f4dbb3820050ff577f188bd58/main.hs <- contains some hacky command line options
19:39:45 <mroman> AnotherTest: You can do {"I am a comment"}vv
19:40:02 <spirity> so with the changes I've made to dogless I'm pretty confident it's turing complete.
19:40:07 <spirity> I'll need to write up a sepc though
19:40:11 <AnotherTest> I need to look more at your source code :p
19:41:11 <mroman> AnotherTest: Values are pushed automatically.
19:41:32 <spirity> sounds like a normal stack-based language.
19:41:38 <spirity> at least the pushing behavior
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19:43:43 <spirity> yeah with this change dogless is turing complete as far as I can tell
19:43:53 <spirity> you can more or less modify arbitrary characters in the source code.
19:47:56 <mroman> Reverse on Block should probably reverse the block :)
19:48:01 <mroman> that would be a nifty feature :)
19:51:07 <AnotherTest> mroman: a while's condition must be non-zero for it to continue, I assume?
19:55:05 <mroman> But there are no comparision functions yet.
19:55:20 <mroman> 10{1.-}{1.-}w! loops until that 10 reaches 1
19:55:27 <mroman> 10{1.-}{5.-}w! loops until that 10 reaches 5
19:56:51 <mroman> and evaluating the while condition does not affect the global stack
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20:02:17 <mroman> but I can add comparision functions in a minute.
20:02:26 <mroman> Adding builtin functions is usually a piece of cake
20:02:41 <mroman> unless they are more complicated like while or concat
20:06:32 <mroman> it returns the list without its last element.
20:06:48 <mroman> actually Burlesque doesn't have lists :)
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20:08:45 <AnotherTest> Does it work for numbers? (could you remove the last byte?)
20:09:18 <mroman> The problem is you can't have both :)
20:09:19 <AnotherTest> I'm going too look into this more tomorrow
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20:46:01 <mroman> @tell AnotherTest http://mroman.ch/burlesque/builtins.html <- up to date reference table of builtins
20:46:12 <mroman> @tell lambdabot Thank you.
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21:12:35 <olsner> heh, "Perhaps it's a typo, and was meant to be AArgh64" (regarding arm64 being called aarch64)
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22:08:44 <zzo38> Do you know if Csound accepts hex literals?
22:18:36 <soundnfury> Someone just suggested to me that I should write an operating system in make
22:18:48 <soundnfury> and the worst part is, I'm thinking about how I would
22:25:27 <mroman> Does make even have enough capabilities for that?
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22:27:42 <mroman> My make skills are sadly really bad :(
22:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no, because by its nature it requires a preexisting operating system.
22:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you use a copout like doing IO mapping, and you can write an OS with literally any TC language + IO mapping.
22:28:39 <nortti> soundnfury: how would it communicate with hw?
22:29:14 <nortti> soundnfury: devide driver level?
22:29:40 <soundnfury> but the trick is to have include files which you change
22:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> /dev, which is implemented... by the operating system.
22:30:03 <soundnfury> because that causes Make to restart itself
22:30:12 <nortti> top 3 esolangs: dc, sed and make
22:30:31 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: well /obviously/ this is a virtualisation-only OS
22:31:03 <olsner> soundnfury: have you seen the makefile mandlebrot?
22:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Because then /dev is still being implemented by the virtualised OS.
22:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> And you're then implementing your make "OS" on top of that.
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22:32:14 <mroman> Couldn't you build a compiler for it?
22:32:30 <mroman> and I think make allows shell stuff?
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22:32:37 <soundnfury> You could build a hardware Makefile coprocessor ;)
22:33:00 <nortti> soundnfury: make an os with low level kernel written in asm and high level system in make ;)
22:33:40 <mroman> but that certainly needs a runtime system.
22:33:56 <mroman> if you compile you can special case that :)
22:34:00 <mroman> if one can compile make
22:34:02 <nortti> mroman: it can be written in recursive sed !
22:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, but in that case the pathnames are just syntactic sugar for hardware IO instructions, and that's not even make any more.
22:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a language with very similar syntax but totally different semantics.
22:34:53 <mroman> well. make allows embedding shell script?
22:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (You can't do hardware IO with shell builtins either.)
22:35:24 <olsner> nortti: sed is recursive enough on its own, I think
22:35:41 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I get your point.
22:35:48 <nortti> olsner: is normal sed tc?
22:36:10 <mroman> But it would be a reasonable trade-off to sugar some IO stuff
22:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Implementing $thing with some ridiculous language is cool /if the language is actually applicable to $thing's domain/.
22:36:43 <olsner> you can put it in a loop, which makes string rewriting trivial
22:36:49 <olsner> it has branches and everything
22:37:49 <mroman> Is there a brainfuck interpreter in sed?
22:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So implementing, say, find in make would count, but completely changing the fundamentals of make so you can implement an OS in it and then implementing an OS is... kind of ugly.
22:38:28 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: where?
22:39:10 <mroman> Compiler doesn't count.
22:39:19 <olsner> "It compiles brainfuck code into linux ELF binary." :D
22:39:52 <zzo38> Is there some way to make hexadecimal numbers in Csound?
22:40:26 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FireFly/sedfuck.sed
22:40:32 <mroman> ^- whatever "half-working" means.
22:40:38 <zzo38> Possibly by use macros?
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22:41:22 <FireFly> I guess I didn't implement .,
22:41:33 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: looks like x86
22:42:27 <nortti> no. it is lunix on 6502
22:43:05 <mroman> dc is turing complete?
22:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Unbounded recursion is simple, since it allows arbitrary execution of stored code.
22:44:39 <soundnfury> nortti: make together with cat is almost certainly tc
22:44:56 <soundnfury> because if an included file is changed Make restarts
22:45:15 <soundnfury> so you just have a Makefile that includes a bunch of its own targets
22:45:55 <olsner> I think running any commands is cheating
22:46:26 <olsner> combining $(patsubst) and recursive make (or some other way of doing unbounded recursion/restarting) should be turing complete though
22:47:14 <nortti> what is the computational class on cpp?
22:49:31 <nortti> what about computational class of yacc/lex?
22:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's TC if certain conditions are guaranteed, but they aren't in many implementations.
22:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> C's arguably not TC, but that's another kettle of worms.
22:50:43 <olsner> I think we decided beyond arguably that C is not TC
22:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, sizeof must return a finite integer for all types.
22:51:17 <zzo38> But what if char is storing any integer?
22:51:20 <olsner> mroman: basically because pointers have a constant size so you can't have infinite memory
22:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So pointers are bounded, so there's a finite bound on addressable memory.
22:51:42 <olsner> files might be an escape hatch, if they can be infinite size
22:52:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Does it always have to be 8-bits?
22:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I guess fstat /dev/random must break that counterpoint.
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22:53:29 <shachaf> olsner: I think POSIX allows ftell() to fail.
22:54:00 <mroman> assembler is not turing complete as well?
22:54:56 <mroman> Memory addressing also has a size limit.
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22:59:01 <shachaf> "assembler" isn't a language.
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23:00:22 <olsner> macro assemblers might be turing-complete
23:06:16 <mroman> it's a family of programming languages then.
23:06:51 <mroman> if you allow assembler as a shortcut for assembly language
23:07:37 <mroman> or a translation error
23:07:46 <mroman> as in german there is no assembly <-> assembler distinction
23:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <shachaf> olsner: I think POSIX allows ftell() to fail.
23:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH if you're going to include POSIX it's a bit of a stretch to call it C.
23:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's clear that C is not TC without standard libraries, can we leave it at that?
23:10:49 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: OK, but I think ANSI C allows that extension.
23:11:23 <olsner> I kind of think the stdlib should count though, making it TC if you use files for storage?
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23:11:46 <shachaf> olsner: The question is whether ftell() makes it TinC again.
23:11:56 <shachaf> And I think the answer was no because it can fail.
23:13:06 <fizzie> Re size of char, it's CHAR_BIT bits, which is >= 8.
23:15:14 <fizzie> Last time I think there was also some discussion on whether the stack needs to be finite even if you don't take pointers to elements in it, but that's perhaps not a terribly interesting way to go.
23:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what's to stop the sizes of everything being infinity?
23:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, does 'the stack' actually exist in C, especially less standard libs?
23:16:07 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: CHAR_BIT, I think
23:16:10 <fizzie> sizeof returns a size_t, which is an unsigned integer type, and sizeof (size_t) must be some integer.
23:18:20 <fizzie> And there's no 'the stack', but there's 'a stack' implied by the way functions are called and return, even if it's not implemented in a stacky way. Still, that doesn't help a whole lot.
23:19:08 <olsner> one idea would be a stratified C where your program restarts with double the pointer size after running out of memory, though that probably breaks some rules
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23:20:38 <soundnfury> Um, the stdlib isn't just defined by POSIX
23:20:46 <soundnfury> The C standard itself defines a lot of it
23:20:49 <olsner> well, I meant a C implementation that did that "transparently"
23:21:38 <fizzie> But arguably you could have something like int f(void) { char c = get(); if (c == 'a') if (f() == FAIL) return FAIL; if (get() != 'b') return FAIL; return ACCEPT; } that recognizes a^n b^n, something you can't do without some form of unbounded storage, that could be allowed to work for arbitrary n since there are no user-visible pointers involved. (Doesn't make it TC, of course, it's just a ...
23:21:44 <fizzie> ... comment on the storageness.)
23:22:38 <fizzie> Modulo bugs in that code, but you get the idea.
23:22:43 <soundnfury> I'd be tempted to declare c with storage class register, thereby guaranteeing that we won't & it
23:23:11 <fizzie> You can write it withot 'c' as well if you like.
23:23:34 <fizzie> Then there's nothing that you could even take pointers of.
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23:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> hello monqy we are debating the tcness of c, do join the 'fune' as you call it
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23:27:04 <fizzie> But the files do provide an easier way for a C implementation to provide an infinite tape that more or less fits within the rules, that's for sure.
23:27:20 <fizzie> You know, one of those implementations running on a machine with infinite tapes available.
23:27:38 * Gregor grabs his USB infinite tape device.
23:28:56 <fizzie> To nitpick on my own comment, sizeof is an operator and therefore never "returns" anything, it just yields a value.
23:31:57 <soundnfury> hang on, the behaviour of >> on signed types is implementation-defined, right?
23:32:14 <soundnfury> or is it arithmetic overflow on signed types that's implementation-defined
23:32:32 <soundnfury> if the former, we can have >> yield the bits that were previously <<ed off, if any
23:43:05 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: yes, arguably everything is arguable
23:43:23 <ion> olsner: I disagree.
23:43:48 <olsner> ... arguably you wouldn't
23:44:51 <olsner> btw, found some secure C coding guidelines that warned against using fseek and ftell because they might not work well on infinite files
23:46:01 <Phantom_Hoover> All of this would be solved if language designers had just followed my suggestion.
23:49:43 <olsner> soundnfury: you can't use << and >> to magically add invisible bits, any piece of data is a series of bytes each having a constant number of bits, and those bits should be enough to recreate the original value
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