←2012-07-25 2012-07-26 2012-07-27→ ↑2012 ↑all
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01:16:31 <coppro> yay, badblocks saves the day
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01:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait whoa, Gilgamesh was 2/3 god.
01:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sumerian myths are so much better than that Greek crap.
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02:40:33 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to watch babylon 5
02:41:13 <Sgeo_> Or not
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03:19:27 <tswett> Sgeo_: well, it's pretty much exactly what I said.
03:19:47 <tswett> I say "Sgeo's messages are also Machiavelli's", you say the converse. And that's the partnership.
03:20:56 <Sgeo_> What, "Machiavelli's messages are also Sgeo's?" Or am I getting converse wrong (I wikipedia'd it)
03:21:04 <tswett> Yeah, that.
03:21:33 <coppro> tswett: in Agora?
03:21:36 <tswett> coppro: yep.
03:21:41 <coppro> that doesn't work
03:21:49 <tswett> It doesn't?
03:21:53 <coppro> no
03:21:54 <Sgeo_> You could also say "Warrigal's messages are also Machiavelli's" and then have control of me, I think
03:21:57 <Sgeo_> (If it worked)
03:22:00 <coppro> what is a partnership
03:22:21 <tswett> In this case, a partnership is when two people work together to achieve a common goal.
04:09:14 <Gregor> Hello, different audience than last night.
04:09:20 <Gregor> Go read my short story: http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html
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08:10:12 <AnotherTest> Hi
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08:43:41 <mroman> Hi.
08:43:58 <mroman> If C is not turing-complete, but there is a Brainfuck interpreter in C
08:44:08 <mroman> that means, there is no actual Brainfuck interpreter in C
08:44:13 <mroman> because C can't interpret Brainfuck.
08:44:56 <mroman> Also that means: "I wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in my language, so my language is turing complete" might be delicate then.
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08:57:09 <fizzie> You could argue that "Brainfuck" without qualifiers might easily mean a fixed-length tape (that's what the first implementation had), in which case it's quite irrelevant to TC-ness.
08:57:37 <fizzie> You could also argue that purely by saying "I wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in my language, so my language is turing complete" you're kind of implying the tape is in fact not finite.
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09:06:28 <AnotherTest> practically the tape is always finite
09:08:43 <mroman> Due to the restrictions of a computer yes.
09:08:52 <mroman> But not by the restrictions of a language.
09:09:11 <mroman> You can write a brainfuck interpreter in a turing complete language so that the tape *would* be infinite
09:16:43 <fizzie> You can also write one in C in which the tape would be infinite if the language was tweaked a tiny little bit; the finiteness isn't really all that noticeable, after all.
09:17:12 <fizzie> So the "C isn't TC" is really mostly just nitpicking and arguing for the sake of argument.
09:43:18 <shachaf> "tweaked a tiny bit"?
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10:14:56 <Taneb> Hello
10:16:06 <AnotherTest> Hello
10:17:04 <AnotherTest> mroman: it's possible to add features from Stlang (eg. functions) to burlesque by making macros that expand in new macros
10:19:37 <AnotherTest> that'd be something like #fn\s+(.*)\s+(.*)efn :=
10:19:37 <AnotherTest> #\1 := \2\n
10:26:25 <Taneb> Are you two working together on Burlesque?
10:50:11 <Taneb> brb
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11:10:27 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 There's no Peanoid or Copeanoid instance for Int8
11:10:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:28:36 <Taneb> Is now the time to learn Lisp?
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11:37:55 <mroman> Taneb: No @working together
11:38:09 <mroman> He's writing a preprocessor for esoteric programming languages
11:38:14 <mroman> and uses Burlesque for examples.
11:38:40 <mroman> although that macros won't enable you recursion I guess.
11:39:07 <mroman> Not without much overhead I think.
11:39:22 <mroman> Burlesque doesn't know the concept "recursion"
11:39:27 <mroman> Not first hand.
11:41:05 <elliott> fizzie: I think making C TC would require more than small changes. Although I guess just removing CHAR_BIT would allow the possibility of a TC implementation.
11:44:02 <Taneb> elliott, should I learn Lisp?
11:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well what is there to stop you replacing 'integer' with 'ordinal' in the right places to allow infinitely large types?
11:44:31 <elliott> Taneb: what is "Lisp"
11:44:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the C standard
11:44:40 <Taneb> elliott, a speech impediment.
11:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, learning <language> is generally a good idea so long as it's not Yet Another Generic Scripting Language.
11:45:10 <Taneb> A sixth of my ancient history class suffer from it
11:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And there are 6 people in the class, har har har.
11:45:29 <Taneb> There's 12
11:45:43 <Taneb> 30% of my further maths class are called Andrew
11:45:53 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: Learn COBOL, it's a generally a good idea ;P
11:45:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is "Lisp"
11:46:05 <elliott> you are giving crappy advice because you don't know what Taneb is using "Lisp" to refer to
11:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, CL or Scheme, these days.
11:46:29 <elliott> for instance learning LISP 1.5 would be incredibly dumb
11:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Neither is a bad choice.
11:46:35 <elliott> and Scheme is barely a Lisp
11:46:47 <elliott> (and not considered a Lisp by its designers, just a Lisp descendent)
11:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's referred to as one.
11:46:52 <nooga> then what is Lisp?
11:47:04 <elliott> i give up
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11:47:08 <nooga> hahaha ;d
11:47:11 <Taneb> nooga, it's when you can't really pronounce your f's or s's right?
11:47:52 <mroman> I'm tempted to create an eso-paste like codepad.org
11:47:52 <nooga> that's one of definitions
11:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, different to codepad in what way?
11:48:07 <mroman> Which not only stores your paste, but also runs it and tells you its output.
11:48:08 <nooga> was there a guy with nick Patashu here?
11:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
11:48:17 <Taneb> A while back?
11:48:22 <Taneb> He may be still here AS WE SPEAK
11:48:23 <nooga> I recall seeing him here
11:48:25 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: It supports esolangs @different ;)?
11:48:44 <Taneb> mroman, like, with syntax highlighting?
11:48:53 <mroman> Yes.
11:49:21 <Phantom_Hoover> How many esolangs can you even do that for
11:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Most of them barely have a syntax.
11:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (Brainfuck
11:49:41 <Taneb> Probably just Glass
11:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> is partly to blame for this.)
11:49:51 <mroman> Brainfuck well.
11:49:55 <Taneb> And INTERCAL
11:50:12 <mroman> It't have a different color for +- [] >< and ,. probably.
11:50:19 <mroman> *d
11:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> There are a fair few that do, but most of them have BF-style specs where it's just considered a flat array of instructions.
11:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Remind me, did I get around to adding a better BF spec on the wiki.
11:51:05 <Taneb> No
11:52:10 <Taneb> Yeah, all of mine are like that but Luigi and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
11:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I should do that.
11:52:41 <Taneb> My first esolang was indirectly a BF derivative
11:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought 3: was a chelicerate smiley until I read through a second time.
11:53:12 <Taneb> chelicerate?
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11:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Spiders and other things with that sort of fangs.
11:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Nepeta, because of the unfortunate way her mouth is drawn.
11:55:24 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Neither does Word64
11:55:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:58:08 <Taneb> I wonder how many people know the context for that?
11:58:11 <Taneb> Possibly only me
11:59:10 <mroman> I quickly switched to #haskell but found no context there either.
11:59:32 <Taneb> NOBODY SHALL KNOW
12:00:00 <ais523> it's targeted at zzo38
12:00:00 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:00:05 <ais523> thus, it's quite possible there /isn't/ any context
12:00:07 <ais523> @messages
12:00:07 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 1h 49m 49s ago: lumenstones /do/ stack; see http://i.imgur.com/WiVQp.png
12:00:08 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 1h 23m 54s ago: btw, I got to depth 21 with the help of a highly-enchanted staff of lightning and +3 scale mail of reflection, but then I died :(
12:01:34 <ais523> @tell elliott item stacks (except projectiles) in Brogue use up 1 inventory slot per item in the stack; that pack's full because it contains 26 items, even though only 17 of the 26 slots are in use, so your link actually argues for my point of view :)
12:01:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:02:09 <ais523> @tell elliott meanwhile, I'm interested in your opinion on http://nethack4.org/pastebin/philosophy.html (I suspect you're going to disagree with it, but am interested to know with which bits)
12:02:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:05:45 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to actually become good at NetHack at some point
12:05:48 <Taneb> Well, I really don't
12:06:03 <Taneb> It'd probably be better if I didn't, to be honest.
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12:07:42 <ais523> btw, anyone else who cares can look at that link I sent elliott too
12:07:51 <AnotherTest> Sorry my Internet connection died :(
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12:14:25 <Madoka-Kaname> http://postimage.org/image/99fi2135j/
12:14:25 <Madoka-Kaname> Oh dear.
12:14:28 <Madoka-Kaname> This is going to take a while.
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12:21:52 <Sgeo_> Madoka-Kaname, hm?
12:23:38 <Taneb> I'd say you're losing
12:23:45 <Taneb> Is TOX the one that doubles the damage each turn
12:23:46 <Taneb> ?
12:23:55 <Taneb> As opposed to the similar PSN?
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12:24:51 <Madoka-Kaname> Taneb, Wigglytuff has Magic Guard
12:24:57 <Madoka-Kaname> TOX's damage is negated.
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12:25:03 <Taneb> Oh, brilliant
12:27:28 <Madoka-Kaname> Simply put, it became a question of "who has more PP"
12:28:22 <Taneb> Good luck
12:29:28 <Madoka-Kaname> (The other player disconnected)
12:29:29 <Madoka-Kaname> (><)
12:29:40 <Taneb> (does that mean you get the points)
12:29:50 <Madoka-Kaname> (The ladder server is down. Nobody gets points right now :()
12:30:01 <Taneb> :(
12:32:36 <Madoka-Kaname> The foe's Cofagrigus used Shadow Ball!
12:32:37 <Madoka-Kaname> It doesn't affect Noriko...
12:32:40 <Madoka-Kaname> Are you stupid??
12:33:16 <Taneb> I need to play more Pokemon
12:33:19 <Taneb> Actually...
12:33:26 <Taneb> see my NetHack speech earlier
12:33:54 <Madoka-Kaname> I love how
12:33:56 <Madoka-Kaname> Clefable
12:34:00 <Madoka-Kaname> Is totally immune to all entry hazards
12:34:15 <Madoka-Kaname> Meaing all those spikes are useless
12:34:30 <Taneb> Your team is perfectly adapted to the scenario?
12:34:37 <Madoka-Kaname> Not really.
12:34:41 <Madoka-Kaname> It's kinda still under construction
12:35:03 <Madoka-Kaname> Are you stupid?
12:35:09 <Madoka-Kaname> Setting up entry hazards while I was setting up a sweeper?
12:35:35 <Taneb> Yeah, I suck at Pokemon
12:35:42 <Taneb> And most other video games
12:38:01 <Taneb> I can't really think in strategy?
12:53:30 <AnotherTest> http://pastebin.com/QDFJrB31 <- that works
12:53:40 <AnotherTest> mroman
12:58:15 <mroman> What if I call test in test?
13:00:10 <mroman> Defining macros is ok
13:00:21 <mroman> But trying to disguise them as functions is wrong :)
13:00:49 <mroman> but that depends on the language I guess.
13:07:32 <AnotherTest> If you call test from withing test, it doesn't get substituted :p
13:08:09 <AnotherTest> I see these functions more as a syntactic construct
13:08:31 <AnotherTest> HELP doesn't define semantic behavior anyway
13:08:40 <Taneb> A very lazy macro system would essentially be call-by-name laziness?
13:10:42 <AnotherTest> Well I think that there is an other approach, but it's harder
13:10:56 <AnotherTest> you could push the function to the stack as a Block
13:11:17 <AnotherTest> but then the problem would be loading it
13:17:15 <Taneb> Apparently, a tiling is a family of shapes, which are called tiles
13:19:29 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: surely Nepeta's mouth would be much more like :3 than like 3:.
13:29:40 <tswett> Sgeo_: so, what do you say to the partnership idea?
13:32:17 <Taneb> Partnership idea?
13:32:37 <tswett> Where each of us allows the other to act on our behalf.
13:32:47 <Taneb> What context?
13:33:04 <tswett> Agora.
13:33:08 <Taneb> Okay
13:33:26 <Taneb> There ought to be an esoteric programming language community nomic
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13:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, well yes.
13:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But it also has those fangs at the bottom.
13:52:07 <AnotherTest> mroman: macros can't generate macros nicely... \ is seen as an escape sequence in the function body
13:53:40 <Taneb> You'd think Nepeta and Vriska would get on more
13:53:53 <Taneb> But I can't recall them ever interacting on-screen?
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14:07:39 <Taneb> Hello
14:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb!
14:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's been a while!
14:09:02 <Taneb> Yeah!"
14:09:18 <Taneb> But yeah, my laptop crashed
14:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Were the passengers OK?
14:09:42 <Taneb> No serious injuries
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14:20:36 <oklopol> here's a CA question: you have a state called 0 and a state called 1. device a CA with at least these states such that all configurations over {0, 1} with a finite number of 1's collect the 1's into a connected pattern, and the number of 1's stays constant.
14:21:26 <Taneb> My first thought is that that is not possible if the CA has infinite space
14:21:44 <Taneb> But I think I have an idea?
14:22:02 <oklopol> so you are given an infinite configuration with 0's and 1's such that there are only finitely many 1's, and without changing the number of 1's, but possibly using any finite set of helper states, clump the 1's together.
14:23:08 <oklopol> well do you want hints? i have a continuation to this question if someone gives a plausible solution.
14:23:22 <Taneb> Can I see where my idea goes first?
14:23:32 <oklopol> i'm asking this because it's kind of a fun esoteric type puzzle, and would be nice to know if what we've done sofar is trivial.
14:23:46 <oklopol> sure i'm gonna watch old episodes of house now
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14:24:32 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know if there's a way to hook up a socket into the SDL event loop thingy?
14:24:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:24:35 <elliott> I guess not.
14:24:35 <oklopol> i can tell what the answer is as a boolean at some point at least, unless someone finds such a CA or proof of impossibility
14:25:23 <oklopol> (or if no one cares ofc :D)
14:27:10 <tswett> Taneb: what's your idea, then?
14:27:16 <Taneb> Sort of like ropes
14:28:20 <oklopol> :P
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14:34:17 <Taneb> I think I can do it with 5 states (2 dimensions)
14:35:38 <Taneb> Unless I'm missing something stupid, definitely 6
14:38:29 <tswett> How?
14:38:46 <oklopol> right yeah this is for 2D, that's kind of important (although might help looking at 1D first)
14:38:47 <Taneb> Sort of like ropes is actually the best description I can think of
14:38:57 <Taneb> Yeah, I meant 1D
14:39:09 <Taneb> 2D may be harder, haven't really thought about it
14:39:14 <oklopol> okay so how do you do it?
14:39:28 <Taneb> Can you let me write this down and think it through?
14:39:34 <elliott> fizzie: How do partial reads work with a non-blocking FD?
14:39:37 <Taneb> I'm trying to get my brain to give me its secrets atm
14:39:38 <oklopol> also i hope i explained the problem correctly
14:39:40 <elliott> e.g. if I read 12 bytes but only 11 are available.
14:40:25 <oklopol> it's very important here that you can depend on every state besides 1 and 0 having been introduced by yourself
14:40:52 <oklopol> well, important in the sense that it's a very different problem otherwise.
14:40:59 <elliott> Deewiant may also apply.
14:41:02 <oklopol> and yeah take your time
14:41:08 <Taneb> What do you mean by "depend"?
14:41:45 <oklopol> well just that you can trust that you are really given a configuration with only 0s and 1s even though you can introduce more states that you then use in clumping the 1s together.
14:42:10 <Taneb> Okay
14:42:21 <Taneb> So, you're saying that I start with something that has only 1s and 0s
14:43:44 <oklopol> yes.
14:44:01 <oklopol> an infinite configuration, we can say say 1D for now
14:44:07 <oklopol> and there are only finitely many 1s
14:46:20 <Deewiant> elliott: Presumably you get the 11 bytes
14:46:30 <elliott> Deewiant: :(
14:46:46 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't suppose there's an easy way to get "give me 12 bytes if you have them, otherwise just refuse to respond"?
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14:47:27 <Deewiant> Like, read nothing from the fd if there are less than 12 bytes available?
14:47:48 <Deewiant> I don't know of a way, at least.
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14:49:47 <elliott> Deewiant: A shame.
14:50:47 <Deewiant> Any reason you can't just buffer the 11?
14:51:15 <elliott> Deewiant: Because I'll have to maintain a buffer. :(
14:51:18 <elliott> I guess I could just do this thingy.
14:51:55 <elliott> Deewiant: By the way, remind me to reintroduce these hard tabs when I'm done.
14:51:58 <elliott> THX
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15:04:01 <Taneb> Found a problem with my system
15:04:26 <Taneb> Attempting to fix
15:04:44 <oklopol> alright
15:05:38 <oklopol> ais523_: can you compose two CA in mathematica?
15:07:56 <oklopol> i feel kind of dirty since i've *actually implemented a few CA* at work, and to make things worse, i used mathematica :/
15:10:19 <oklopol> apparently the only way to make CA in mathematica is to supply a local rule directly. they are not functions, and you cannot run them on arbitrary computable configurations. the whole thing is completely special cased and it's really annoying to do anything with them.
15:11:50 <oklopol> no optimation is done if a periodic (or even unary) pattern starts filling the universe.
15:11:52 <Taneb> Damn
15:12:10 <Taneb> My idea hasn't worked
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15:12:18 <oklopol> okay
15:12:26 <oklopol> even for 1D?
15:12:27 <Taneb> I'll describe it any way
15:12:29 <Taneb> Yeah
15:12:33 <oklopol> alright go ahead
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15:12:48 <Taneb> The 1's emit a highway of 3's with 2's at the tips
15:12:57 <oklopol> which way?
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15:13:06 <Taneb> So, 1 -> 212 -> 23132 -> ... -> 2333331333332
15:13:13 <oklopol> both ways okay
15:13:25 <Taneb> Actually, that's an idea
15:13:34 <oklopol> what is?
15:13:47 <oklopol> oh just one way perhaps
15:13:55 <Taneb> It'll only work for 1D, but if they only go one way, I'll avoid this error
15:14:03 <oklopol> cool
15:14:20 <oklopol> so what then?
15:14:46 <Taneb> When a highway encounters a 1 or a 2, the 2 turns into a 4
15:15:04 <Taneb> This 4 falls back to the original 1, which then moves towards the 4
15:15:21 <oklopol> and you only do this in one direction?
15:15:29 <Taneb> Both
15:15:39 <oklopol> okay, don't the highways collide?
15:15:40 <oklopol> oh
15:15:55 <oklopol> okay i see, they should gather at the middle then i guess?
15:16:00 <Taneb> Yeah, in theory
15:16:04 <Taneb> It doesn't work
15:16:09 <oklopol> and why is that?
15:16:18 <Taneb> What happens when there's the pattern 101?
15:16:37 <oklopol> well isn't that a local issue that you can fix trivially?
15:17:03 <Taneb> I thought so too, but it gets complicated and nasty
15:17:30 <Taneb> And you start losing 1's
15:17:39 <oklopol> you do?
15:17:48 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
15:18:29 <Taneb> Unless you extend the detecty-range thing? But down that path madness lies
15:19:04 <oklopol> er
15:19:07 <oklopol> i doubt this
15:19:35 <oklopol> if you see 101, then neight 1 introduces a 2, and the rightmost one moves left
15:19:47 <oklopol> erm
15:19:49 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/72152
15:19:52 <Taneb> That's what I had
15:19:53 <oklopol> neight??
15:20:15 <Taneb> neight isn't a word?
15:20:50 <oklopol> well what the fuck did it mean there? i assume jumbled some words together :D
15:21:07 <Taneb> Possibly "one"?
15:21:22 <oklopol> oh i meant neither
15:21:23 <oklopol> :D
15:21:32 <Taneb> Aaah
15:21:55 <Taneb> I think that's what I did, with a 5 to tell the 1 to move
15:22:03 <Taneb> But I made the one on the left move right?
15:23:09 <oklopol> i'm sure there's a very simple fix
15:23:36 <Taneb> Look at the hpaste, that's what I had before I realised it wasn't going to work
15:25:10 <oklopol> i'm happy with that if that's an actual simulation, i know it's not hard to make that work, but it's not very interesting, essentially you're done. now let's make this more interesting: 3 states, radius 1 (Von Neumann neighborhood)
15:25:17 <oklopol> and 2D
15:25:38 <oklopol> so you have a 0, a 1 and a single helper state
15:25:41 <Taneb> Oh dear
15:25:42 <oklopol> same rules
15:25:50 <Taneb> A single helper state!?
15:25:52 <oklopol> well there aren't that many CA like that :D
15:26:03 <oklopol> well okay there are kinda many.
15:26:24 <oklopol> erm wait
15:26:30 <oklopol> i guess you need moore neighborhood
15:26:42 <oklopol> this means you can look diagonally too, but just one step in each direction
15:27:23 <oklopol> also let's call this Problem 1 :P
15:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, are you allowed to have leftover helper state?
15:27:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, are you creating or destroying 1's?
15:28:11 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yes
15:28:38 <oklopol> in fact i'm pretty sure you have to
15:28:54 <Taneb> Oh, that sense of leftover
15:29:48 <oklopol> no cleanup required, just that the 1's gather together and their number is conserved.
15:32:06 <oklopol> bonus points if you find the (presumably minimal) solution i hinted at, or a better one.
15:35:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host).
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15:48:42 <Taneb> I think I've got it
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15:52:18 <oklopol> with three states?
15:52:22 <Taneb> Yeah
15:52:25 <oklopol> ooh
15:52:26 <Taneb> Just testing it
15:53:22 <Taneb> Does anyone know any CA software that's easy for this kind of thing?
15:54:37 <oklopol> mathematica lets you visualize pretty nicely
15:54:45 <Taneb> How much does mathematica cost?
15:55:06 <oklopol> and mirek's cellebration is nice enough for testing CA on different patterns once you have the CA, but i don't know if it's nice to make rules with it.
15:55:20 <oklopol> well right, a lot, we have it at uni.
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15:56:06 <oklopol> also it's not much nicer making the actual rules than it is with say C, you can basically just give it the local rule. it does give you an infinite configuration, assuming only finitely many cells are filled.
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16:00:00 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm pretty sure this works
16:00:08 <Taneb> My phrasing's awful, though
16:00:11 <Taneb> 0's look at W, SW, and S. If any are not 0, become #.
16:00:11 <Taneb> 1's look at SW. If #, become 0. Else look at S and E. If S is # and E is not 1, become 0. Else look at W, NW, and N. If W is # and neither
16:00:11 <Taneb> NW nor N are 1, become 0.
16:00:11 <Taneb> #'s, look at NE. If NE is 1, become 1. Otherwise look at N and W. If N is 1 and W is not #, become 1. Otherwise look at E, SE, and S. If E is 1 and netiher SE nor S are #, become 1.
16:00:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:00:49 <oklopol> instead of tediously giving the rule, can you first explain what happens in english? :D
16:00:52 <oklopol> i mean
16:00:59 <oklopol> globally, not what the actual rules are
16:01:09 <oklopol> makes it a bit easier to follow, i'm kinda lazy.
16:01:27 <oklopol> hmm
16:01:31 <oklopol> or maybe that's easy enough
16:01:46 <Taneb> Basically, 1's send out a rug north, northeast, and east, and other 1's fall down it
16:02:01 <oklopol> okay that sounds correct.
16:02:20 <oklopol> so let's say we have a 1 at (0, 10) and (10, 0), does it still work?
16:02:33 <Taneb> No
16:02:35 <Taneb> :(
16:02:42 <Taneb> Damn
16:02:46 <oklopol> well don't be too sad, this is how we started
16:03:12 <oklopol> except ours was rotated 180 degrees
16:03:26 <oklopol> but i guess that's not how gravity works so you win.
16:06:10 <Phantom__Hoover> FWIW, Golly has a nifty tool that lets you convert state transition functions like the one Taneb gave into rule tables.
16:07:09 <oklopol> the rug description?
16:09:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Also I was thinking of the same kind of thing, except the rugs also send out tendrils to the sides,
16:11:03 <oklopol> send tendrils south and west?
16:11:32 <Taneb> How do you do that with only 3 states?
16:13:19 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, well if you change the orientation of the rugs so they spread in a triangle from NE to NW, then you can make a 0 with a single # to the left or right turn into a #, maybe?
16:13:47 <Taneb> Hmm
16:13:57 <Phantom__Hoover> The problem is starting up
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16:19:13 <Taneb> Hmm
16:19:15 <Taneb> That works
16:31:09 <olsner> is there a language where their word for no starts with y and their word for yes starts with n?
16:31:43 <Taneb> I think Welsh is like that with Male and Female
16:32:32 <Taneb> *Irish, men, women
16:33:01 <Taneb> "men" is "fir", "women" is "mn"
16:33:06 <Taneb> Causes chaos in restaurants
16:34:25 <Taneb> Almost Finnish?
16:34:49 <Taneb> Apparently, "niin" means "yes", and "ei" means "no"
16:34:53 <Taneb> Finns: confim/deny
16:35:36 <oklopol> "man" is "mies" and "woman" is "nainen"
16:35:41 <Taneb> In Greek, "yes" is nai, and "no" is "ochi"
16:36:10 <oklopol> "niin" is more like "that's true", "kyll" and "joo" are the canonical yesses
16:37:39 <Taneb> Swahili's close, too
16:37:54 <Taneb> "yes" is "ndiyo", "no", is "hakuna"
16:38:08 <FireFly> いいえ (iie) in japanese is a formal way of saying "no", apparently
16:38:45 <oklopol> also ie is no, but ee is yes.
16:38:46 <Taneb> So, Swahili and Greek are your best bets
16:39:27 <oklopol> uun is no, un is yes. then again the tone tells you everything you need to know in both cases.
16:40:09 <oklopol> ^ also that was another way to say yes/no in japanese
16:40:52 <oklopol> i like how nay is yes and okay is no.
16:40:55 <oklopol> in greek
16:44:22 <pikhq_> oklopol: Yeah, uun vs. un seems very confusing at first.
16:44:40 <pikhq_> But, they sound totally different when someone actually says it.
16:45:03 <pikhq_> Hooray, completely obvious instance of pitch accent.
16:47:11 <oklopol> also uhhuh can mean both yes and no in english depending on the tone. or perhaps you'd spell them differently, dunno.
16:47:43 <oklopol> perhaps the no is more like an uh-uh
16:48:22 <pikhq_> It is. To my ears "uh huh" and "uh-uh" sound like they're composed of different phonemes.
16:48:34 <pikhq_> I think "uh-uh" has a glottal stop in there.
16:48:42 <oklopol> in finnish we do the same with m-mm and mmhm.
16:48:52 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it does, yes
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17:02:04 <Taneb> Aaaaaah oerjan
17:02:13 <Taneb> I'm in 2010 and the site crashed
17:04:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It is the '10s and there is time for the site crashing.
17:22:37 <AnotherTest> mroman: When compiling Burlesque; Web.Encodings wasn't found?
18:02:51 <elliott> @ask ais523 I thought killing a monster with a pet didn't give you death drops, re: gnomes and candles?
18:02:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:04:56 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:16:54 <pikhq_> Fun fact: computed goto is *hell* to debug.
18:18:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
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18:22:45 <olsner> Fun fact: that should not surprise anyone
18:26:18 <itidus21> Taneb: it sounds like maybe we thought of very similar CA .. i glanced at what you said in the logs.. well i dont know the context of it for you but for me it occured to me yesterday to say
18:26:52 <oklopol> you thought of this same CA yesterday??
18:26:53 <itidus21> a 6 state cell, {up,down,left,right,center,off}
18:27:03 <itidus21> oklopol: i didnt look close at it
18:27:08 <itidus21> so i highly doubt it
18:27:11 <itidus21> lol....
18:27:41 <oklopol> would've been awesome synchronicity
18:27:48 <itidus21> actually i named the states using compass points
18:28:10 <oklopol> although i didn't get to the main question yet, it's a bit more interesting
18:28:13 <itidus21> so.. if hte cell to the north was in a state of south, the current cell would become south in the next iteration
18:28:39 <itidus21> if the cell to the east was in a state of west, the current cell would become west
18:29:13 <itidus21> if the cell to the east was west, and the cell to the west was east, the current cell would become center/centre
18:29:26 <oklopol> and similarly for other collisions?
18:29:29 <itidus21> i actually gave up trying to map out all the possibilities
18:29:37 <oklopol> and what was this for?
18:30:04 <oklopol> this doesn't sound like what Taneb was doing
18:30:18 <itidus21> so that on a CA where the entire thing is off.. a single cell which is west, will translate to the west each iteration
18:30:24 <oklopol> just a lattice gas automaton or something
18:31:12 <oklopol> yeah i got it, you have particles that move in cardinal directions.
18:31:48 <itidus21> ya.. thats all.. i just saw his said west and stuff and i jumped the gun a bit
18:32:11 <oklopol> this was about gathering all the ones in a configuration in the same place
18:32:56 <itidus21> ah... well logic dictates that i would not have the same idea :D
18:33:14 <oklopol> it's impossible to do if you can only use 1's and 0's, but you can do it if you add one more symbol.
18:33:39 <oklopol> (extra points for proving what i just said)
18:34:27 <itidus21> my goal was to kind of use brute force to make spaceships automatically happen :D
18:35:38 <olsner> oklopol: 0/1/spacecraft?
18:36:30 <itidus21> lol
18:40:54 <oklopol> olsner: and why is there one?
18:41:06 <itidus21> well i know it can't be expressed (by me!) using simple ca rules, but by having enough states and writing a function i assume a lot is possible
18:41:24 <oklopol> you need three states and radius one
18:41:37 <oklopol> that much i've disclosed
18:41:40 <itidus21> to do everything?
18:41:44 <olsner> oklopol: not sure why I directed that comment to you
18:41:51 <itidus21> oh...... i wasnt ready to solve your problem yet
18:42:06 <itidus21> hnn
18:42:19 <oklopol> olsner: i assumed it was a very compact proof :D
18:43:02 <oklopol> itidus21: to gather ones in the same place
18:43:09 <oklopol> you need three states
18:43:15 <itidus21> yeah, that might be quite challenging for me
18:46:15 <itidus21> ahh.. perhaps you specify that collection spot with a 2!
18:47:26 <olsner> oklopol: it was a reference to a discussion from the other day, where it was decided that everything that has an off/on switch should also have a spacecraft mode on that switch
18:48:14 <itidus21> and the 2 grows like an evil blob and when it encounters a 1, the 1 digs a tunnel through it ... hmm perhaps not
18:48:17 <olsner> if whatever it was that required 3 states/symbols was related to spaceships, the topics are related
18:48:52 <olsner> (I mean, obviously you need the spacecraft setting to get spaceships)
18:49:43 <itidus21> olsner: its not technically related i think
18:50:01 <olsner> ok, that's a shame
18:50:03 <itidus21> i just make it sound related in my confusion and my constant topic hopping
18:50:16 <oklopol> olsner: also basically a proof for what i asked, although i might have accepted the empty string too.
18:50:50 <olsner> proof: <trivial>
18:51:06 <oklopol> itidus21: what you're describing with 2's sounds about right
18:51:12 <oklopol> but there's a problem with it
18:51:19 <itidus21> cool
18:51:27 <oklopol> that's easy enough to solve though
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18:53:09 <itidus21> ahh.... maybe it grows like a circle instead of a blob
18:54:13 <oklopol> and how do the 1s know where to move?
18:55:55 <itidus21> oh...... it could be a spiral.. and the 1s propagate along this spiral
18:56:56 <oklopol> where does it start?
18:57:00 <Taneb> Is there any rotatable CA with a 1x1 spaceship?
18:57:08 <itidus21> hummm
18:57:13 <oklopol> what's a rotatable CA?
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18:57:42 <oklopol> what's a spaceship?
18:58:05 <oklopol> because the identity CA has a 1x1 spaceship and pretty much any property you might want. except for not being the identity function.
18:59:09 <Taneb> A rotatable CA is what you get when you put California on a merry-go-round
18:59:31 <Taneb> A spaceship is a SHIP in SPACE
18:59:57 <oklopol> okay. does it also mean that if you rotate and apply, you get the same thing as if you apply and rotate?
19:00:09 <olsner> Taneb: yeah! because space is like water but it's a vacuum instead
19:00:10 <fizzie> A spaceship is a hip replacement done in a spa, at the Consumer Electronics Show.
19:00:18 <Taneb> Probably not
19:00:35 <oklopol> if that's the definition then you can't have a 1x1 spaceship
19:00:44 <oklopol> unless you also apply a rotation to states.
19:01:27 <oklopol> all totalistic CA (local rule just looks at the sum of values in the neighborhood) commute with rotations, GoL included
19:01:37 <oklopol> unless i'm being very stupid
19:02:10 <Taneb> A spaceship is a pattern that after t*k steps is a translation of itself
19:02:19 * itidus21 quietly backs away.
19:02:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:02:32 <Taneb> Where t is an integer variable and k is an integer constant
19:02:34 <Taneb> I think
19:04:17 <oklopol> yeah, a finite pattern such that when you surround them with 0s (what's 0??), you get a configuration x such that f^n(x) = \sigma^m(x) where f is your CA, \sigma the translation function and m some integer.
19:04:40 <oklopol> (in 1d, that is. otherwise you need to translate by a vector of appropriate dimension.)
19:05:13 <Taneb> s/integer/natural/
19:05:21 <oklopol> in what you said, it's enough that you require it for some k!=0, then the rest follows inductively.
19:05:42 <oklopol> k greater than 0 if we don't assume the CA is reversible
19:05:49 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm no expert on CA's
19:05:54 <Taneb> Or CA, or Ca
19:05:58 <Taneb> Or cars
19:06:55 <oklopol> yeah i'm just spreading the word, my goal is to get someone to read one of my articles during the next decade.
19:07:36 <Taneb> Hmm
19:07:57 <olsner> you write articles?
19:08:10 <oklopol> yes
19:08:10 <Taneb> Within the next decade, I'm planning on having a degree involving maths and computer science
19:08:17 <oklopol> it's my job
19:08:52 <olsner> you're a journalist?
19:09:06 <elliott> yes, oklopol is a journalist
19:09:41 <oklopol> yes, exactly
19:10:27 <itidus21> within next decade i want to get married, have children, leave the state, settle down in a routine of daily work related to indie entertainment, attend a rock concert, humm
19:11:08 <oklopol> i have 3/5
19:11:31 <Taneb> I have 1
19:11:38 <Taneb> I've left Victoria in the past
19:11:38 <itidus21> your work is distantly related
19:11:43 <olsner> oklopol: you got married and had kids at a rock concert?
19:11:51 <itidus21> ive left victoria but i want to leave it properly
19:11:57 <Taneb> Done that
19:12:00 <itidus21> ya
19:12:11 <itidus21> maybe i don't
19:12:12 <oklopol> olsner: i mean on my todo list
19:12:12 <Taneb> I'm all the way in Hexham, Not Victoria right now
19:12:15 <itidus21> i kind of like this place
19:12:16 <oklopol> for the next decade
19:12:20 <olsner> oklopol: oh, ok
19:12:24 <Taneb> Not NSW either
19:12:25 <itidus21> oh, maybe i should be in hexham
19:12:30 <itidus21> (joke, relax)
19:12:39 <Taneb> itidus21, you can do that without leaving the state!
19:12:55 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham,_Victoria
19:12:55 <itidus21> i have a virtual presence in hexham
19:13:02 <itidus21> what hte
19:13:14 <Taneb> Population 56!
19:13:20 <itidus21> Population: 56
19:13:23 <itidus21> good god
19:14:32 <Taneb> Dilston, Tasmania has more than that
19:14:37 <Taneb> (hexham joke)
19:15:15 <Taneb> (also dilston, tasmania joke)
19:15:51 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:16:03 <itidus21> tasmanians are odd
19:16:47 <itidus21> biased view
19:38:57 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to read Catch-22 at some point
19:39:08 <Taneb> Well, not itidus21 thinking that Tasmanians are odd
19:39:57 <itidus21> some tasmanians are odd due to them being humans not due to them being tasmanian :|
19:40:00 <itidus21> :(
19:40:05 <itidus21> phew
19:40:32 <Taneb> I have no idea what I'm listening to
19:40:41 <Taneb> But it looks like it's in the Albert Hall
19:41:32 <itidus21> so i learned that theres a kickstarter which is doing everything i wanted to do but didn't, and doing it likely better than i would have
19:42:06 <Taneb> Hey, itidus21, do you want to start a video game company with me?
19:42:14 <Taneb> That's your dream, right?
19:45:20 <itidus21> Who was right, and who was wrong? Well, I'm supposed to be an adult now, and I still can't completely figure that one out. But at some point, late at night, near sleep, the ideas and the disagreements sort of dissolve, and you're just left with the people. And people were no different then, as they've always been. And always will be. Young girls get their hearts broken. Men and women suffer alone, ove
19:45:20 <itidus21> r the choices they've made. And young boys, full of confusion... full of fear... full of love and courage... grow up stealthily in their sleep.
19:45:38 <elliott> hi
19:47:36 <itidus21> that answer means.. its the sort of moment where the wonder years narrator would start talking..
19:49:05 <itidus21> When you are a little kid, you are a bit of everything - artist, scientist, athlete, scholar. Sometimes, it seems life is like a process of giving those things up, one by one. I guess we all have one thing we regret giving up. One thing we really miss. And we gave up because we were too lazy. We couldn't stick it out. Or because we were afraid.
19:53:20 <itidus21> basically i see tasmanians as to australia, as canada is to america
19:53:44 <Taneb> I thought that was North Island, New Zealand?
19:54:07 <itidus21> well, technically canada is part of america :D
19:54:21 <Taneb> And Tasmania is part of Australia?
19:54:26 <itidus21> yup
19:54:47 <itidus21> shrugs
19:55:05 <itidus21> i only knew one guy from there though, so its not really fair to comment
19:55:10 <Taneb> But, using the colloquial meaning of "America" to mean the US, I think North Island, New Zealand is a much better Canada
19:55:24 <Taneb> Also, what's Mexico?
19:55:28 <itidus21> but i heard rumours about tasmanian
19:55:29 <Taneb> Northern Territory?
19:55:29 <itidus21> s
19:56:02 <itidus21> nah im just being exceptinally dumb today
19:56:25 <pikhq_> I think Google wants to straight-up kill the US ISPs...
19:57:03 <Taneb> Hang on, it's the BBC Proms
19:58:05 <itidus21> im tempted to go through the kickstarter and chart my efforts at trying to do everything on their features list
20:00:23 <pikhq_> $0.00 5Mbps internet is something.
20:00:36 <itidus21> :o
20:00:50 <pikhq_> As is $70/mo 1Gbps.
20:01:06 <itidus21> `pastlog google free
20:01:31 <Taneb> itidus21, I presume this is US-only, or maybe US + Canada only
20:01:46 <HackEgo> No output.
20:01:52 <pikhq_> Taneb: Kansas City only ATM.
20:02:00 <itidus21> oh i just wanna see if i made any rants about google in here
20:02:04 <Taneb> pikhq_, including the little bit in Kansas?
20:02:12 <itidus21> am i writing the hackego query right?
20:02:13 <pikhq_> Taneb: Yes, KC KS and KC MO.
20:02:14 <itidus21> `pastlog google free
20:02:17 <Taneb> Okay
20:02:20 <pikhq_> If successful (damned well better be) it'll go elsewhere
20:02:29 <itidus21> im after any lines which contain the words google and free
20:02:32 <HackEgo> 2008-06-19.txt:15:03:02: <tusho> if you google free software, you get relevant results
20:02:41 <itidus21> oh
20:03:14 <itidus21> how do i get it to do a list of log results
20:03:20 <itidus21> damn im forgetting how it all works
20:03:28 <itidus21> `postlog google free
20:03:31 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: postlog: not found
20:04:19 <itidus21> maybe there was only 1 result
20:04:32 <itidus21> `pastlog google
20:04:41 <HackEgo> 2009-08-17.txt:20:05:21: <ehird> (this is despite the fact that when I answer such questions I almost always use google)
20:05:06 <itidus21> `help
20:05:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:05:55 <itidus21> `pastlogs google free
20:05:58 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
20:08:39 <Taneb> I've heard that in China, workers for google free political prisoners
20:09:01 <itidus21> ok found it
20:09:27 <itidus21> `pastelogs google free
20:09:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7723
20:09:48 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I got bored of Sheldon... on the comic for the 9th of March, 2012
20:09:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:10:09 <itidus21> `pastelogs google*free
20:10:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6503
20:10:41 <itidus21> `pastelogs google*free
20:10:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32401
20:11:01 <itidus21> `pastelogs google.*free
20:11:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, what comic?
20:11:08 <Taneb> Sheldon
20:11:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9443
20:11:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Ah.
20:11:58 <Taneb> If I install Ubuntu on a computer, how hard is it to then install Windows on it as well at a later date?
20:12:00 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/x74gh/arcades_need_to_make_a_comeback_ive_decided_to/
20:12:00 <itidus21> `pastelogs google.*evil
20:12:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22094
20:12:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah! Arcades need to make a comeback!
20:12:27 <Taneb> One of my friends had that idea
20:12:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm sick of companies trying to milk me for cash with empty Pavlovian hooks!
20:12:39 <Taneb> I tried playing Mario Kart Arcade 2.
20:12:41 <Taneb> It was weird
20:12:45 <Taneb> And expensive
20:13:41 <Taneb> And Ms Pacman was playable!?
20:13:47 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: its actually more healthy
20:14:11 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, in a time when people will bitch about basically any pay model other than a single flat fee the only reason arcades can be seen as respectable is through rose-tinted goggles.
20:14:12 <itidus21> by travelling to the arcade you get your daily vitamin d sunlight, and a motivation to stop playing
20:16:03 <itidus21> `pastelogs people.*like.*google
20:16:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14338
20:16:15 <Taneb> itidus21, it cost money.
20:16:20 <Taneb> itidus21, it's away from home
20:16:28 <Taneb> itidus21, there's nasty people who hog the tetris
20:16:38 <itidus21> its good to get away from home a bit
20:17:07 <Phantom__Hoover> You could also just go for a walk of your own volition rather than acting like a rat in a maze.
20:17:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Just putting that out there.
20:17:28 <itidus21> you would think so
20:17:31 <itidus21> but
20:18:10 <Taneb> Of my friends, I have one who lives pretty much one my street, and one who lives 3 or 4 miles away
20:18:19 <itidus21> it's tough times we live in, unlike pre-civilization
20:18:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't leave me hanging, dammit.
20:18:43 <itidus21> there
20:18:54 <Taneb> Edinburgh's like, 3 or 4 miles away from Hexham, right?
20:19:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, these days you can't go for a walk for fear of dangerous wildlife everywhere and a total lack of infrastructure.
20:19:31 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: after i heard a guy died in an internet cafe due to being hooked like a labrat
20:19:51 <Taneb> Okay, Phantom__Hoover, I have a friend who lives just under 100 miles away
20:19:54 <Taneb> YOU HAPPY NOW
20:19:59 <itidus21> i have seriously started to wonder about how bad things are
20:20:30 <itidus21> i am encouraged to eat due to diabetes :D
20:20:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, they had it much easier 300 years ago when nobody got addicted to anything.
20:20:52 <Phantom__Hoover> And everyone spent their life going on fulfilling nature walks.
20:21:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Horrible things aren't going to stop happening just because the context has changed, and just because they now happen in different ways doesn't mean the context is to blame.
20:22:00 <itidus21> i know what you mean
20:22:09 <Taneb> Google Maps has started doing cycling directions
20:22:16 <itidus21> yeah
20:22:20 <Taneb> And it doesn't want me to cycle up Allendale Road
20:22:23 <itidus21> hmm
20:22:27 <Taneb> I dunno, it's pretty steep
20:22:34 <Phantom__Hoover> As Taneb has just demonstrated, these are the days of miracle and wonder.
20:22:50 <Taneb> But I need to be up that hill anyway
20:22:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Also you're lucky it's not telling you to catch any ferries.
20:22:58 <itidus21> lol
20:23:05 <Taneb> To get a ferry...
20:23:13 <elliott> is itidus21 saying the past was better
20:23:15 <Taneb> I think the nearest ferry would be 25 miles in the other direction
20:23:43 <Phantom__Hoover> (I assume you've seen the thing where the walking instructions between any two points sufficiently far apart in the UK will go via Ireland.
20:23:44 <Phantom__Hoover> *)
20:23:48 <itidus21> elliott: i only half said it before i was corrected
20:23:51 <Taneb> (I have not)
20:24:17 <Phantom__Hoover> I think it's because it doesn't count ferries in its distance calculations.
20:24:32 <Taneb> That wants me to take about 4 ferries
20:24:50 <Taneb> (Edinburgh to Oxford. First two sufficiently far apart places I thought of)
20:25:25 <itidus21> next thing google maps should do is indicate human wayfarers on maps
20:25:35 <itidus21> ^in directions
20:25:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Try John O' Groats to Land's End.
20:25:56 <Taneb> (Troon -> Larne, Larne -> Stranraer, Stranraer -> Belfast, Belfast -> Liverpool)
20:25:56 <itidus21> lol
20:26:17 <Phantom__Hoover> The sad part is that I think I've been on three of those ferries.
20:26:57 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow, John o' Groats to Land's End takes you through France.
20:27:27 <Taneb> Dammit, Google Maps, John O'Groats isn't in Lizard Point
20:27:55 <Phantom__Hoover> It also stops over in Mann.
20:28:22 <Taneb> That's like, 2 and a quarter different countries!
20:28:22 <Phantom__Hoover> ...this route encompasses all the major constituents of the British Isles.
20:28:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh wait I guess it doesn't go through Wales.
20:28:31 <Taneb> Even Wight?
20:28:38 <Phantom__Hoover> I did say 'major' though.
20:28:49 <Taneb> EVEN LINDESFARNE!?
20:29:05 <Phantom__Hoover> (Fuck, where is Lindesfarne.)
20:29:20 <Phantom__Hoover> It's on the east coast right?
20:29:27 <Taneb> Yeah
20:29:42 <Taneb> It's sort of not really an island
20:29:47 <Taneb> It's an island in high tide
20:29:55 <Taneb> Ish
20:30:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Is it this thing called 'Holy Island'.
20:30:09 <Taneb> Sort of
20:30:13 <Taneb> Holy Island's the village
20:30:17 <Taneb> The island's Lindesfarne
20:30:23 <Phantom__Hoover> (I found it easily because the English coast is so boring.)
20:30:33 <Taneb> (yeah, it is, isn't it?)
20:30:54 <itidus21> Catch a train to the station, walk 2 km to the bridge across the lake. Locate the old hermit under the bridge, he will give you safe passage to the mystical grotto.
20:30:55 <Taneb> (is that why you let us have up to the Tweed? Does it all get interesting after the Tweed?)
20:31:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Nah, it's still pretty boring up to the Forth.
20:31:46 <itidus21> Many google cars ran out of fuel searching for the mystical grotto.
20:31:56 <Taneb> Can we have up to the Forth, then?
20:31:57 <itidus21> You are on your own now.
20:32:22 <Taneb> Hang on
20:32:33 <Taneb> Edinburgh's South of the Forth, isn't it
20:32:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, but it's still on the interesting part of the coast.
20:32:59 <Taneb> So's every major city in Canada
20:34:21 <Phantom__Hoover> It's so weird when you look at the map and realise that most of the UK's parallel with the Hudson Bay.
20:35:10 <Taneb> It's like North America slipped south but kept its weather
20:35:46 <Taneb> Or Europe north
20:35:48 <Taneb> That works too
20:35:59 <Taneb> Probably better, gulf stream and all
20:36:04 <itidus21> directions to this location are restricted. login with your google account and we will email the directions to you.
20:36:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Hmm, you know I think technically the northwest of Scotland is actually a separate island.
20:36:21 <Phantom__Hoover> I can't find any break in the water in the Great Glen.
20:37:02 <Taneb> You know the Great Glen is the same thing as the Norwegian Fjords and the coast of Newfoundland?
20:37:20 <Phantom__Hoover> Um.
20:37:37 <itidus21> earth would be so much more boring if there was no water
20:37:42 <Phantom__Hoover> It's part of the same geotectonomatic thing, yeay.
20:37:44 <Phantom__Hoover> *yeah
20:37:47 <Taneb> itidus21, for a start there'd be no life
20:38:26 <itidus21> and any idiot could just walk from A to B
20:38:38 <itidus21> without a boat or a plane
20:38:40 <Taneb> If you could find an idiot, yeah
20:39:43 <itidus21> ah water. you provide is with life, refreshment, icecubes, showers, and continents
20:39:50 <itidus21> ^us
20:40:01 <itidus21> and rain
20:40:12 <itidus21> and clouds :-s
20:40:28 <itidus21> and swimming
20:40:42 <itidus21> fish
20:40:58 <itidus21> fishing, surfing, boating, skiing, snow, snowmen
20:41:04 <itidus21> dear god.. its the gift that keeps on giving
20:41:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, but um I thought fjords were isomorphic to firths
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20:42:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Apparently they're not.
20:42:54 <Phantom__Hoover> No wait they are but not quite.
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20:43:39 <itidus21> ice skating, igloos, sodapop, hydroelectricity
20:44:28 <itidus21> waterfalls, fountains, weird russian computers
20:46:15 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't forget, a convenient strong polar solvent.
20:52:25 <nooga> ha
20:52:36 <nooga> I've managed to compile Brogue for iPad
20:52:52 <nooga> the bad thing is that it does not render anything
20:52:54 <nooga> ;d
20:58:21 <elliott> brogue on ipad sounds awful... the mouse control needs pretty fine precision
20:58:27 <elliott> probably better than most other roguelikes though i guess
20:58:37 <elliott> maybe if you added a zoomed viewport, crawl-style
20:58:44 <elliott> nooga: how far have you gotten in brogue?
21:02:10 <nooga> i came back with the amulet
21:02:22 <nooga> but never got deeper than 26
21:06:18 <elliott> mm
21:06:22 <elliott> I haven't managed to get the amulet yet :(
21:06:26 <elliott> my best game splatted on D:21
21:06:59 <elliott> I had a really good game with +8 regen, +3 wisdom, staff of lightning [5], and a naga and troll for allies
21:07:04 <elliott> but it died due to my stupidity and some bad turns
21:07:20 <elliott> (+8 regen = you refill your HP in 32 turns, not 300-ish)
21:07:30 <elliott> (from 0)
21:07:50 <elliott> (or is that from 1%? whatever)
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21:08:55 <nooga> well
21:09:04 <nooga> the game I finished was quite lucky
21:10:08 <nooga> I had +7 War Axe
21:10:30 <nooga> and +3 runic armor [8]
21:10:51 <nooga> and +4 ring of transference
21:10:57 <nooga> + some staves
21:11:27 <nooga> so I just meeled everything and tried to get to lvl 26 as fast as I can
21:11:46 <elliott> what runic? unidentified? (what armour type?)
21:11:50 <nooga> funny thing that lvl 26 was really calm, I encountered only two bloats
21:11:56 <elliott> haha, bloats
21:12:05 <elliott> I hear the standard wisdom is to clear up to D:20 and then dive for the amulet
21:13:03 <nooga> AFAIR it was banded mail of absorbtion
21:13:37 <nooga> mh
21:15:50 <nooga> next time I will try to get some lumenstones
21:16:11 <elliott> nooga: I hear that plate mail is better than any other armour
21:16:19 <elliott> regardless of enchantment or runic
21:16:22 <elliott> because of the armour formula
21:20:17 <nooga> If you have enough str
21:21:49 <elliott> nooga: yeah
21:21:54 <elliott> nooga: enchanting an item reduces its str penalties, though
21:22:03 <elliott> if you enchant up a war pike or whatever you can use it really early on
21:22:12 <nooga> yes
21:22:24 <nooga> that's why I put +7 on the war axe
21:22:29 <nooga> and relied on transference
21:25:25 <elliott> I hear transference is considered not very good... not sure why
21:26:35 <nooga> stupid iPad
21:26:43 <nooga> the game loop runs flawlessly
21:26:50 <nooga> the problem is that i see black screen
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21:35:18 <nooga> btw. I'm trying to write some kind of web enabled roguelike in js
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22:40:31 <nooga> hm
22:41:02 <nooga> looks like my js 'screen driver' works quite fast
22:42:54 <elliott> clearly i should get nooga to write my brogue patch for me
22:45:05 <nooga> what's the patch?
22:47:45 <elliott> nooga: i am trying to write a patch to add broadcast/spectating support so you can broadcast games and other people can watch
22:47:49 <elliott> because it is lonely not having that from crawl
22:52:34 <itidus21> humm
22:54:52 <nooga> hmm
22:55:01 <nooga> actually
22:55:17 <elliott> I should buy this Humble Music Bundle thing just for TMBG's cover of Tubthumping.
22:55:18 <nooga> that js display that i'm writing
22:55:31 <nooga> would be ideal for that
22:55:43 <elliott> nooga: well, the idea is to spectate with brogue itself
22:55:49 <nooga> oh
22:55:55 <elliott> adding a browser backend thing to brogue would be viable too I think
22:56:45 <nooga> hm, brogue collects all the changes that it makes to the screen before displaying them
22:57:11 <elliott> yes, that's my plan for spectating
22:57:18 <elliott> simply hook into each display and write it to the network toot
22:57:25 <elliott> the harder part is adjusting the main loop for *spectating*
22:57:32 <elliott> since you have to bypass the normal game loop stuff
22:58:17 <nooga> I'd write another view for that
22:58:34 <itidus21> trying to define computer game. so far stuck on "interactive software which has no output except for the user interface, and" which isn't going to hold
22:58:45 <nooga> it would simply display the changes
22:59:33 <elliott> nooga: yeah, the problem is that it still needs a main loop of some kind, and I still need to handle keypresses from the platform code
22:59:37 <elliott> so you can quit
22:59:50 <elliott> itidus21: save files are output
22:59:56 <itidus21> :D
22:59:56 <nooga> uh
23:00:01 <nooga> i closed xcode
23:00:24 <nooga> i'm too lazy to open it to see the code
23:01:01 <itidus21> yeah.. and i disagree personally with interactive
23:01:23 <itidus21> i believe a movie can be an extreme example of a game
23:01:59 <itidus21> freaking continuums make it hard to categorize things
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23:03:39 <nooga> hehe
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23:05:00 <nooga> i think the ultimately linear game would be about Warsaw's subway system
23:05:27 <elliott> nooga: anyway ideally it would be able to synchronise *visible game state* rather than terminal output, because broadcasting each little twinkle of water is inefficient, but...
23:05:43 <nooga> hm
23:05:48 <itidus21> i'm not good enough at natural language to express exactly what i am thinking but i am going to try anyway
23:06:35 <itidus21> one thing about game is that it is only a subset of computer programs
23:07:28 <itidus21> even if the program utilizes audio, video, input, output, networking, it cannot be determined if it is a game
23:08:07 <itidus21> it's such a subjective thing
23:10:35 <itidus21> as far as i am concerned, among the worst programs in the world are retail business data entry programs
23:10:44 <nooga> elliott: in the worst case the whole screen weights circa 33,2 kB
23:11:53 <nooga> excuse me, it could be squished into 26,5kB
23:12:42 <elliott> nooga: well only updates are sent so it is a bit better
23:12:52 <elliott> I suppose it is a lot better than your average YouTube video :p
23:14:19 <nooga> but we'd also need a server, at least to list the active games
23:15:24 <elliott> well i already have a server and the server software itself would be pretty eays
23:15:27 <elliott> I was just going to hack up a python script
23:15:28 <elliott> *easy
23:17:05 * pikhq_ sputters slightly more at Google Fiber
23:17:06 <pikhq_> It's symmetric.
23:18:15 <elliott> it is the first thing to ever make me think "if only I lived in kansas city"
23:19:16 <pikhq_> Yeah.
23:26:06 <Phantom__Hoover> fucking kansers
23:27:34 <kmc> technically they are launching it in two cities
23:27:41 <kmc> both are named kansas city bot only one is in kansas
23:28:07 <elliott> :(
23:29:41 <oklopol> hello world
23:30:52 <oklopol> i admire how the nicks on the right of my screen manage to form a collection together
23:37:42 <nooga> elliott: hm, I just checked the code
23:38:02 <elliott> me too!
23:38:07 <elliott> i've been doing a lot of checking the code
23:38:11 <elliott> annoyingly little writing it, but i am getting there
23:38:17 <elliott> IO.c is sort of a mess
23:38:24 <nooga> yep
23:39:28 <elliott> I am basically writing it messily and hackily and then I will attempt to clean it up once I have demonstrated that the basic principle is sound
23:45:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust simplelock http://sprunge.us/XNMY
23:45:45 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_simplelock: 34.6
23:45:59 <elliott> wow, that is simple
23:47:31 <quintopia> the hill's become weak to locks
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23:48:09 <quintopia> that's just the example program from the wiki with a longer pause at the beginning
23:50:51 <quintopia> also the funny thing about that lock is that it would lock different programs depending on whether the pause is odd or even length.
23:51:11 <quintopia> and changing the odd-even parity of a rush could trivially beat it
23:57:19 <nooga> huh
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