00:01:45 <elliott> Sgeo: btw strings are an awful awful basis for a language
00:02:24 <FreeFull> That if you take all odd numbers
00:02:40 * oerjan braces for someone inventing cardinalities
00:05:16 * oerjan starts breathing again
00:06:19 <Phantom__Hoover> Because you have to breathe the air they want you to breath.
00:09:05 <oerjan> before you know they'll have poisoned you with dihydrogen monoxide
00:09:53 <FreeFull> The air is full of dioxygen, an extremely reactive compound!
00:10:12 <zzo38> O yes you are correct. I forgot.
00:10:56 <FreeFull> And don't forget dinitrogen, which when breathed in sufficient amounts with cause loss of consciousness and then death
00:11:19 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: You're thinking of dihydrogen monoxide
00:11:49 <Phantom__Hoover> I think you mean 'breathed in sufficient concentrations', though.
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02:33:20 <Gregor> “I'm on 29th street, in the—no joke—bright yellow house.” “Well, since you were so kind as to warn me, I should warn you. I'm bringing—no joke—bright yellow pants.”
02:34:06 <oerjan> follow the yellow brick joke
02:34:43 <Gregor> 'snot a joke, it's an anecdote.
02:35:50 <zzo38> Who told you that?
02:36:06 <Gregor> I am the second speaker.
02:36:19 <oerjan> a reliable man made of straw
02:36:26 <zzo38> Do you have bright yellow pants?
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02:36:42 <Gregor> Need to be hemmed though.
02:37:08 <zzo38> Did you buy it after you told them that?
02:37:26 <Gregor> 'course not, the first speaker was the tailor who I'm hiring to hem the pants.
02:38:06 <oerjan> gregor, the man with the larger-than-life pants
02:38:24 <Gregor> They shipped unhemmed. They're like 36x40.
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03:09:23 <zzo38> Have you use unofficial opcodes in 6502 assembly codes?
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03:47:40 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that, while I do have some problems with Tcl, I don't _think_ they ultimately stem from being string-based.
03:48:08 <Sgeo> One looks like it at first, but it seems like it could have been different while still being string-based
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03:50:48 <HackEgo> TUX_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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03:59:16 <Sgeo> Although.... one of the things that makes metaprogramming in Tcl somewhat easy is that commands are lists. They're strings, but they're also lists
03:59:36 <Sgeo> And my problem is that a bunch of commands aren't really lists, they're just... scripts
03:59:45 <Sgeo> (Well, one of my problems)
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05:09:32 <zzo38> Is mathematics the real reality?
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05:19:26 <zzo38> What is your opinion about this? http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=193905 (please read four pages)
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05:26:23 <itidus21> zzo38: was mathematics the real reality before humans? is reality real if noone realizes?
05:26:55 <itidus21> i don't think i want the answers
05:27:37 <zzo38> itidus21: Good because I don't know the answers.
05:28:34 <itidus21> of course, one must consider that numbers are not necessary for mathematics
05:29:16 <itidus21> but if numbers are just symbols of measurement
05:29:28 <zzo38> The numbers are just one possible mathematical system, but still very useful to be used with other mathematical systems and other things too.
05:29:35 <elliott> itidus21: can i play the kmc and point out that you have no idea what you're talking about
05:29:55 <itidus21> infact they are symbols outright
05:34:31 <itidus21> i guess that one might say i am engaged in (some adjective could fit here) speculation
05:34:53 <itidus21> and that i am gaining very little because of it
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06:28:13 <zzo38> God *is* the rules. Therefore, how can God not follow the rules of physics?
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07:15:44 <Sgeo> It strikes me how easy it is to write bad Tcl code.
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07:39:34 <kmc> itidus21: one might correctly say that all of the time
07:39:49 <Sgeo> Well, I've been called "Sego" by a Clojure person
07:40:33 <Sgeo> http://clojurefun.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/macro-magic-the-xor-macro-38-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7
07:58:34 <Sgeo> I don't want to force the users of a library to monkey-patch catch.
07:58:43 <Sgeo> But it almost seems the most correct thing to do
08:12:53 <Sgeo> Tcl has a feature that would enable exactly what I need but it's reportedly very buggy
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08:24:42 <Sgeo> `welcome epicmonkey
08:24:51 <HackEgo> epicmonkey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:38:04 <epicmonkey> It used to be WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR BLA BLA BLA. What has happened? I don't feel rage anymore.
08:38:26 <HackEgo> EPICMONKEY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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09:15:56 <Vorpal> suddenly I have an urge to write a fault tolerant IRC bot... Why...
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09:17:43 <HackEgo> ＥＰＩＣＭＯＮＫＥＹ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬ
09:22:14 <Vorpal> shachaf, what about a lower case double-width one?
09:22:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, too much work
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09:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: You've used astyle, right?
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09:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, astyle can do that?
09:35:13 <Vorpal> but yes I used it, was ages ago though
09:35:47 <Vorpal> elliott, Like any such tool for C it has problems with macros containing unbalanced { and }
09:36:08 <elliott> I'm in the market for something to reformat a ~85k-line C++ program.
09:36:13 <elliott> No macro hackery that I know of.
09:36:20 <Vorpal> used it for C, no clue how well it works for C++
09:36:29 <elliott> Is it possible to teach it about custom formatting rules for certain functions?
09:36:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ̸W̷̸̛E̢L̷͘C҉OM͢͜E̷: not found
09:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I was debugging a legacy embedded system running Windows CE the other day.
09:36:54 <elliott> there's a function that should be formatted with two parameters two a line
09:37:01 <elliott> rather than just wrapping at 80 cols
09:37:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the CPU of the system was a Pentium MMX
09:37:12 <elliott> do you know if that would be feasible?
09:37:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Is it possible to teach it about custom formatting rules for certain functions? <-- don't remember
09:38:30 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I was debugging that system from another similar system that was talking with it it over a CAN bus.
09:39:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, the system I was debugging had no ethernet, so thus the middle step there
09:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if you think toughbooks are rugged, you haven't seen the hardware I'm working with nowdays.
09:41:33 * elliott is content with the normal kind of machines
09:42:00 <shachaf> Is "XMM" just "MMX" backwards or is there something more to it?
09:42:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, I believe XMM stands for something in itself. That doesn't mean the abbreviation is a coincidence however
09:43:12 <shachaf> Does SII stand for something in itself?
09:44:23 <Vorpal> shachaf, well it obviously stands for "Something In Itself"
09:47:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Tell me about code reformatters.
09:48:47 <elliott> (I'm not reformatting an 85k-line codebase by hand.)
09:49:06 <elliott> Ooh, I broke this one good:
09:49:07 <elliott> stuff.h: In instantiation of ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type}]’:
09:49:07 <elliott> stuff.h:121:66: recursively required from ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:10 <elliott> stuff.h:121:66: required from ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:14 <elliott> stuff.h:127:59: required from ‘T random_choose_weighted(int, T, Args ...) [with T = scroll_type; Args = {int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:54 <Deewiant> Most code is. That doesn't mean you need to reformat all of it.
09:50:55 <elliott> Does indent even support C++?
09:51:35 <shachaf> But I've told you everything I know about code reformatters!
09:51:42 <shachaf> Why are you reformatting Crawl's code?
09:52:40 <shachaf> Will they accept your changes?
09:54:01 <elliott> error: unable to find string literal operator ‘operator"" EOL’
09:54:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> Deewiant: Tell me about code reformatters. <-- There are really good ones for Java and C#. Can't think of any perfect one for C or C++
09:55:12 <shachaf> What about the built-in vim one?
09:57:52 <elliott> Hey, I'm about to spam. Fair warning.
09:57:53 <elliott> - int cweight = weight, nargs = 100;
09:57:55 <elliott> - const int nweight = va_arg(args, int);
09:58:03 <elliott> - const int choice = va_arg(args, int);
09:58:05 <elliott> - if (random2(cweight += nweight) < nweight)
09:58:07 <elliott> - chosen = static_cast<T>(choice);
10:03:38 <shachaf> A proper formatter would format it to while (nargs --> 0), of course.
10:04:04 <elliott> I rewrote it to use a C++0x template.
10:04:12 <elliott> Although I don't know if we really want to go in the C++0x route.
10:10:54 <ion> 2 Gorillas 1 Poop http://youtu.be/9QYeYPYGNdc
10:15:11 <ion> http://www.foddy.net/CLOP.html
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10:25:54 <Vorpal> ion, is it as impossible as qwop?
10:26:09 <shachaf> QWOP isn't impossible. It's easy.
10:28:06 <Vorpal> shachaf, riiight? So you mastered it?
10:28:28 <shachaf> Vorpal: Well, I can get to the end reliably.
10:29:01 <Vorpal> shachaf, how quickly though?
10:29:24 <shachaf> You're supposed to be fast?
10:29:54 <shachaf> There's no timer, just a distance-measuring thing.
10:31:29 <shachaf> I got to the top of the first hill just now.
10:31:36 <shachaf> Seems similarly boring so far.
10:32:05 <shachaf> Well, but less of a flat surface, at least.
10:32:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, I seen a speedrun of it?
10:33:05 <Vorpal> also I think these games are supposed to be boring
10:33:10 <Vorpal> shachaf, you could try GIRP
10:33:24 <shachaf> Vorpal: Oh, I won using only two keys.
10:33:27 <shachaf> Does that count for something?
10:33:54 <shachaf> I'm past halfway in CLOP using only two keys too.
10:34:19 <shachaf> This hill is annoying, though.
10:38:38 <shachaf> That hill looks impassable using my strategy.
10:38:59 <Vorpal> I tried a couple of gaits and couldn't make it work, then I gave up
10:39:06 <shachaf> On the other hand I think I encountered a bug.
10:39:12 <shachaf> Because the hind legs stopped working completely.
10:39:17 <shachaf> Or maybe I was just doing it wrong.
10:40:00 <shachaf> Only H and K did anything.
10:40:24 <shachaf> That's probably what "Lame Horse Mode" means.
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10:58:49 <oklopol> is your strategy to lame your back legs?
11:02:40 <oklopol> and i suppose the second hill is bigger
11:04:54 <oklopol> this would be so much easier if the keys made any sense
11:05:28 <oklopol> i can guess the reason but if it's that one, it's still so wrong.
11:05:45 <ion> You could make a custom keyboard layout!
11:13:36 <oklopol> ...unlike playing this for hours with keys i don't like?
11:18:16 <ion> Random facts about Finnish: there’s a humorous euphemism for puking: speaking in Norwegian or phoning to Norway. In the context of the latter the toilet can be called a phone booth.
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11:59:46 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you mess with cfunge under cygwin ages ago?
11:59:51 <Vorpal> I forgot what the outcome of that was
12:17:12 <Vorpal> ah yes, the whole thing built save for one small fix
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12:19:58 <Vorpal> though it gives a spurious BAD
12:21:30 <Vorpal> okay I switched from Release to Debug and now it fails in a different place
12:23:10 <elliott> lambdabot: what are you doing
12:23:14 <elliott> monqy: try saying a longer message
12:23:25 <monqy> i already checked my messages
12:23:31 <monqy> how else would i know about that thing i knew about
12:23:42 <elliott> i'm not very smart sometimes
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12:25:50 <Vorpal> hrrm... clock_gettime is /very/ broken on cygwin
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12:38:05 <Vorpal> also cygwin headers are broken if you use -std=c99 when using _POSIX_C_SOURCE
12:38:19 <Vorpal> they just hide stuff based in __STRICT_ANSI__
12:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Can I have access to your Windows box?
12:40:55 <elliott> I need to test some stuff.
12:40:56 <Vorpal> it is windows, I wouldn't trust it to do multi user stuff securely
12:41:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I could compile something not too large under cygwin if you want.
12:41:30 <Vorpal> (remember cygwin is slow at fork()...)
12:42:02 <Vorpal> seriously, what is up with the headers on cygwin, --std=gnu99 didn't show everything
12:42:18 <Vorpal> like, it doesn't show strdup!
12:43:55 <Vorpal> wow, -std=gnu99 does not define _GNU_SOURCE under cygwin... That is so broken
12:44:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, pretty sure they were related?
12:44:40 <Gregor> -std=gnu99 should not define _GNU_SOURCE anywhere.
12:44:51 <Gregor> In fact, -std=gnu99 does NOT define _GNU_SOURCE anywhere.
12:45:00 <Vorpal> pretty sure it used to? Or maybe it was -std=gnu89 that did?
12:45:27 <Vorpal> anyway cygwin thinks strdup is _GNU_SOURCE
12:45:32 <Gregor> If !STRICT_ANSI, then glibc gives you something like _POSIX_C_SOURCE=somethingerather _XOPEN_SOURCE=somethingerather
12:46:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, I'm using -std=c99 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600, and that isn't doing the right thing on cygwin
12:46:54 <Gregor> Yeah, then that's broken :)
12:47:06 <Gregor> But then, it's Cygwin. Broken is the norm 8-D
12:47:39 <Vorpal> why do I keep using nano shortcuts in emacs and emacs shortcuts in nano today -_-
12:50:04 <Vorpal> also altgr keeps activating the god damn window-icon menu of windows
12:50:49 <Gregor> No good can come of using Windows, Vorpal.
12:52:07 <Vorpal> warning: array subscript has type 'char' <-- huh?
12:52:20 <Vorpal> that seems perfectly legit to me as long as you have a small enough array
12:54:08 <Deewiant> The reasoning is that char is sometimes signed, and using plain char you might expect it to be unsigned
12:54:46 <Vorpal> Strange that I don't get that warning on Linux with gcc
12:57:00 <kallisti> Gregor: I think the reason web apps are so popular is everyone would rather deal with that shit than deal with Windows.
12:57:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You use Windows, right???
12:57:23 <elliott> Deewiant: You've used PDCurses, right????????????
12:57:42 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I could compile something not too large under cygwin if you want.
12:57:46 <elliott> it's actually non-cygwin i'm concerned about alas
12:58:08 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you want to..... combine these interests????????????????????
12:58:34 <Deewiant> I've only ever used PDCurses on Windows, so I've already combined them.
12:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it then?
12:58:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I have Visual Studio 2010 Ultimate as well
13:00:27 <elliott> Deewiant: I have this piece of code that has its own awful Win32 code and a POSIXy backend that uses ncurses. I want to see if I can axe the former and simply make the latter happen to not actually depend on POSIX at all, so I can just use PDCurses on Windows. But I don't have access to Windows : - (
13:00:36 <elliott> I might just see if this kind-of-weak machine can support an XP VM.
13:01:05 <Vorpal> okay wtf, as far as I can tell from the build process it should have TERM, yet it isn't there
13:02:02 <elliott> Deewiant: Another alternative might be MinGW cross-compilation, but uh... setting up PDCurses in such an environment sounds painful.
13:02:19 <kallisti> set up RDP or teamviewer on someone's windows desktop
13:02:26 * kallisti has had to do that a couple of times.
13:02:41 <elliott> yes, now all I need is a "someone"
13:03:16 <Deewiant> elliott: What's there to set up, all you need is the library?
13:04:02 <kallisti> elliott: just write the code perfectly the first time. What's the big deal?
13:04:33 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't actually know. Compiling on Windows natively is kind of a weirdly new and baffling experience for me. I'm not at all sure how it works.
13:05:03 <kallisti> elliott: C/C++? VS seems to be the best way to go these days.
13:05:24 <kallisti> it's also a huge pain in the ass to set compile options in a GUI. :(
13:06:27 <kallisti> maybe that's not what you're confused about though..
13:06:35 <elliott> I'd rather use MinGW... dealing with another compiler's foibles seems a bit painful, and I know even less about a non-GNU toolchain.
13:07:06 <kallisti> does MinGW link to the Windows DLLs?
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13:07:42 <Vorpal> it does link to them afaik
13:07:53 <Vorpal> and unlike cygwin it doesn't add a layer in between
13:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I found 64-bit XP to be considerably lighter on VMs than 32-bit XP)
13:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is because it is based on a server OS (2003 server iirc?) rather than a client OS
13:09:44 <fizzie> It (also AFAIK) does link to the MSVC runtime, yes.
13:10:12 <elliott> I wonder if PDCurses works on Win64.
13:10:21 <kallisti> right, what I actually meant was "doesn't it link to its own DLL layer"? but apparently it doesn't
13:10:35 <fizzie> I would be surprised if pdcurses didn't, but I can't be absolutely sure.
13:10:58 <fizzie> MinGW also (IIRC) uses kinda hacky header files, there's some kind of GCCified <windows.h> etc.
13:13:35 <Vorpal> hm, stdscr from ncurses is not an lvalue on cygwin
13:14:12 <Vorpal> yet the code looks the same
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13:14:53 <kallisti> Vorpal: is it a macro? maybe something inside the macro is defined differently
13:15:12 <Vorpal> kallisti, indeed the case, can't find where the macro is defined yet though
13:17:27 <Vorpal> well, I can find the definition on cygwin... but not on linux
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13:17:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, how can grep -R on /usr/include not find the definition of NCURSES_PUBLIC_VAR
13:17:59 <kallisti> Vorpal: because you gave it a bad regex
13:18:22 <Vorpal> kallisti, I can find uses of it
13:18:28 <Vorpal> and I grepped for a plain string
13:18:37 <Vorpal> fgrep -R NCURSES_PUBLIC_VAR /usr/include/
13:18:49 <Vorpal> surely it must be there for the code to compile, since it is used
13:19:04 <kallisti> might be passed in as a -D flag?
13:19:32 <Vorpal> or it seems it is hidden inside some ifdef
13:21:16 <Vorpal> no, it was a #ifdef way far out
13:21:41 <Vorpal> so that code isn't actually compiled presumably
13:22:31 <kallisti> Vorpal: check makefiles for various -D flags
13:26:57 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know where i can find a completely legitimate copy of winxp x64
13:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, are you a student at a university?
13:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise: no clue
13:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, you can run 32-bit programs on win64, so <elliott> I wonder if PDCurses works on Win64. is not really an issue
13:28:45 <elliott> Vorpal: by completely legitimate i mean completely illegitimate
13:28:54 <Vorpal> no idea about that either
13:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, try the usual locations?
13:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: which "edition" do you have
13:29:32 <Vorpal> elliott, pro I believe?
13:29:46 <Vorpal> I don't know what the corporate edition is
13:29:58 <Vorpal> is it the volume license thingy?
13:30:03 <elliott> "Windows XP Professional 64 bit Corporate Edition"
13:30:25 <fizzie> They had those things that don't do as much activation nonsense.
13:30:34 <fizzie> Or something. (Is no expert.)
13:30:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be that fancy volume license thingy that allows any number of licenses for a given company or so?
13:30:54 <Vorpal> err, any number of installations*
13:32:41 * Sgeo thinks that if Tcl is not going to use [] to surround top-level commands, it should at least have a built-in identity command more concise than return -level 0
13:33:00 <elliott> Vorpal: does virtualbox have drivers for xp x64
13:35:45 <elliott> access to this website has been denied
13:35:45 <elliott> We have been ordered by the High Court to prevent access to this website as it operates unlawfully. This is a legal obligation that we must comply with. The Court has found that the site and its users infringe copyright material in the UK.
13:35:45 <elliott> Orange does not monitor customer's activities nor will we disclose personal details or any information about our customers to any third party unless legally compelled to do so.
13:35:51 <elliott> urhgurhgurghruhgh fuck off you shitbags
13:36:02 <Vorpal> elliott, pretty sure it does yes
13:37:11 <elliott> bleh, there seems to be no information on this "Corporate Edition" that i am suspicious of
13:37:35 <Sgeo> Oh, [lindex] works as id for one argument
13:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 32-bit XP might run too. Or you could go for 2003 Server
13:39:56 <Vorpal> elliott, german wikipedia has a "corporate edition" page that mentions windows xp, it interwiki links to "volume license key"
13:40:43 <Vorpal> dammit, waybackmachine is broken on one link due to robots.txt
13:47:44 <Vorpal> hm xubuntu installer crashed
13:47:58 <Vorpal> seems it doesn't like either linux software raid or lvm2
13:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I love my desktop, I can run at least three non-trivial virtual machines without it becoming unresponsive. Haven't tried more
13:49:00 <Vorpal> (one windows 7, one xubuntu and one windows xp 64-bit now)
13:49:51 <Vorpal> (in total they have 8 GB RAM allocated)
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13:51:12 <fizzie> I just "synclient PalmDetect=1"'d and am now wondering why I didn't try it before.
13:52:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a Palm?
13:53:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, my Hand has a Palm.
13:54:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: (And the laptop has a synaptics touchpad which has a palm-detect thing for the "misclicks from your palm when typing" thing.)
13:54:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, so not a Palm PDA
13:54:56 <Vorpal> it looked like you were trying to sync with it
13:55:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm pretty sure I can set the palm detect thing from gpointer-settings or whatever it is called
13:55:49 <Vorpal> still uses the synaptics driver iirc
13:56:02 <fizzie> This is a xfce thing, the graphical settings things are kind of bare.
13:56:13 <fizzie> I haven't found out a way to enable a Compose key yet. :p
13:56:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, think I did it in my .xinitrc by some xkb commands or such
13:57:07 <Vorpal> or I did it from gnome 2 and then it just carried over into xfce
13:57:25 <Vorpal> I'm currently on a gnome 2 laptop
13:57:26 <fizzie> Speaking of Palm, there's some kind of a Palm Pre(?) compatibility thing for the N900.
13:57:32 <fizzie> (They use the same hardware.)
13:57:45 <Vorpal> same CPU? Or more than that?
13:58:01 <fizzie> Well, same OMAP3 platform, so CPU, GPU and other such things.
13:58:11 <fizzie> Different sensors and whatnot, but anyway.
13:58:19 <fizzie> It doesn't run everything, but apparently it runs many game-like things that only do fullscreen OpenGL ES stuffs.
13:58:37 <Vorpal> did Palm Pre have many of those?
13:58:57 <fizzie> I don't really know. I think it has a couple. Though not really any sort of iOS-grade appcosystem.
13:59:02 <fizzie> (It's like an ecosystem for apps.)
13:59:18 <Vorpal> I was under the impression that Palm was very much a work device, targeted at corporations
14:00:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, do you know if there is any good open source real time OS?
14:00:33 <Vorpal> vxworks is kind of out of my league for hobby projects
14:01:05 <Vorpal> I know there have been various RT versions of linux, but I don't know much about them
14:01:57 <fizzie> I don't know that much about RT either. QNX has been used for soft-ish realtime stuffs.
14:02:06 <fizzie> It's not open source either, of course.
14:02:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want hardish real time in this case anyway
14:02:51 <fizzie> And people who work at companies do play games too. :p
14:03:52 <fizzie> http://www.gamespot.com/palm-webos/games.html?games=popular okay the selection doesn't look too impressive. :p
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14:51:40 <fizzie> The weirdest, 19 entries in the 1k competition.
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15:03:48 <Vorpal> btw, why is it that designing software is so much more fun than implementing software.
15:08:40 <fizzie> Oldskool kombo had the typical 4 entries.
15:08:54 <fizzie> This year they have a fixed list of platforms, and organizer-provided hardware.
15:09:01 <fizzie> A fixed and a reasonably short list.
15:09:21 <fizzie> It's the Assembly one.
15:09:24 <fizzie> "The following platforms are allowed, no exceptions:
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore 64 + 1541-II
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore Plus/4 + 1551 / 1541-II
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore Amiga 500, 1MB Agnus, 512k chip/512k slow, Kickstart 1.3
15:09:24 <fizzie> Atari ST, 1MB, double sided floppy
15:09:32 <fizzie> Sinclair Spectrum 128k + tape
15:09:37 <fizzie> That's not long. It doesn't even have the VIC-20.
15:09:45 <fizzie> Or many others you could name, but anyway.
15:09:54 <fizzie> NES or such, for example.
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15:10:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, also no modern systems at all
15:10:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I could imagine 1K for Arduino or such
15:10:34 <fizzie> Oh, that's not for 1k.
15:10:36 <Vorpal> (or however you spell that)
15:10:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well 1K would be 1Kb programs? no?
15:10:56 <fizzie> But that's for modern platforms.
15:11:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, so which platforms is 1k for then?
15:11:27 <fizzie> See, they have an oldschool compo with no size limits (well, except those imposed by those platforms), which had 4 entries, and a separate 1k competition where the compo machine is a modern thing.
15:11:34 <fizzie> There were Linux, Windows and OS X entries.
15:11:39 <fizzie> But the hardware's x86.
15:11:53 <elliott> Vorpal: how much ram does xp 64 bit want
15:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, let me see what I give it on the virtual machine on my laptop
15:12:21 <fizzie> What about this year? All I've said applies to this year.
15:12:27 <Vorpal> elliott, on my desktop I usually just throw 2 GB on anything that isn't windows 7 (in which case I throw 4 GB at it)
15:13:07 <Vorpal> elliott, on my laptop with 2 GB RAM I give winxp 64 pro 516 MB RAM
15:13:29 <Vorpal> it isn't super fast, but it is much more responsive than 32-bit windows xp under the same conditions
15:13:45 <Vorpal> and no I don't know why it is 516 instead of 512
15:14:05 <elliott> how much storage space did you allocate :P
15:14:38 <Vorpal> 20 GB, dynamic allocated though. No idea how much of that is used
15:15:03 <Vorpal> well it doesn't look like I shrunk that recently
15:15:08 <Vorpal> since the disk image is 17 GB
15:15:14 <Vorpal> pretty sure it is less than that though
15:15:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have some software installed on it
15:15:49 <Vorpal> oh wait, 17 GB was windows 7
15:15:59 <Vorpal> the winxp image use 8.9 GB
15:16:10 <Vorpal> 4.8 for the 32-bit one
15:16:16 <elliott> it's dynamically-allocated anyway
15:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I did that on IDE
15:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, because windows xp fails at SATA
15:16:50 <Vorpal> couldn't find 64-bit drivers that worked with XP
15:16:56 <Vorpal> during install at least
15:16:57 <elliott> they don't come by default?
15:17:08 <elliott> any other virtualbox configuration i should know about?
15:17:10 <Vorpal> elliott, nope, on xp you had to put in a floppy or something with the SATA drivers
15:17:15 <Vorpal> elliott, even on real machines
15:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you might need to install ethernet drivers. They don't come with windows either usually :P
15:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from that, read through the help for the machine config in virtual box and make an informed decision on each one
15:18:29 <Vorpal> elliott, like you want IO APIC on
15:18:36 <Vorpal> machine clock in UTC off
15:18:48 <Vorpal> not sure about absolute pointing device
15:18:57 <Vorpal> I think my xp install in virtualbox predates that option
15:19:24 <elliott> but it says IO APIC will decrease performance : (
15:19:24 <Vorpal> elliott, for 64-bit you need to activate VT-x (or the AMD equiv)
15:19:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay, does it? Hm
15:19:51 <Vorpal> not 100% sure, but 64-bit might require it
15:20:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, for 64-bit you need to activate VT-x (or the AMD equiv)
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15:20:43 <elliott> i do not have hardware virtualisation
15:20:45 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a help button in the config dialogue?
15:20:49 <elliott> gues i'll throw this torrent away
15:20:53 <Vorpal> it opens a manual for me?
15:20:54 <elliott> and i meant virtualbox or windows manual
15:21:16 <Vorpal> you are on an Atom or something?
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15:21:21 <Vorpal> or how do you not have VT-x
15:21:30 <elliott> "pentium" which is a rebranded core 2 duo ulv
15:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on a core 2 duo and I have VT-x
15:21:42 <elliott> lower-end core 2s don't have thingy
15:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess 2.26 GHz isn't lower-end then?
15:22:05 <Vorpal> model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
15:22:12 <Vorpal> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 lahf_lm dts tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority
15:22:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you might try windows 95. Your system might just be able to handle that
15:23:27 <Vorpal> Actually probably not, I have problems emulating that under virtualbox on this machine
15:23:35 <Vorpal> probably driver issues mostly though
15:23:40 <elliott> i've successfully emulated win 95 in virtualbox
15:23:45 <elliott> with full resolution graphics
15:23:56 <Vorpal> yeah, it just didn't run very fast
15:24:11 <Vorpal> maybe it did something that was bad for VT-x, don't know
15:25:09 <elliott> you need some things to make it run fast
15:25:50 <Vorpal> anyway I don't need it any more, I got planescape running under windows 7 64-bit
15:26:15 <Vorpal> haven't gotten very far though
15:26:56 <Vorpal> the thing that those old games do where it voice acts like a couple of the lines but not most of them throws me off.
15:27:04 <Vorpal> or in the planescape case, a couple of the words
15:28:36 <kallisti> elliott: more programming books should be like Why's Poignant Guide
15:28:56 <kallisti> LYAH is very similar, maybe even a bit better (more to-the-point)
15:29:50 <Vorpal> personally I really don't like that style
15:29:52 <Sgeo> I think my main reason for liking Tcl more than a Lisp-family language is ecosystem worries
15:30:16 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
15:30:36 <Vorpal> kallisti, indeed, I prefer the technical documentation approach
15:30:54 <HackEgo> Sgeo invented Metaplace sex.
15:31:09 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
15:31:21 <Sgeo> It was a virtual isometric world
15:31:35 <kallisti> I think MUDs invented metaplace sex.
15:31:41 <kallisti> I will let you ponder how this even makes sense.
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15:33:18 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
15:33:28 <HackEgo> .\z/0.\w.tJ/KkV(.Ǘ6.WMSk..,XojKkW..QR1.kEĮ3=.Vp.@.ɛ|*HgCy&..jAm.N|E.sm .FBqEK..djKI|.) .M.~vC?L'.v.d!;.ZT..B..֦lM..`q!䇽5ڝՐNr*.(E..8⠤.5
15:33:58 * Sgeo alarums at his abuse of the word "alarum"
15:34:03 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
15:34:14 <Sgeo> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alarum
15:34:28 <Sgeo> I never realized it actually could be related to alarms. Thought it was just a stage thing
15:34:43 <Sgeo> And that my use of "alarum" for "alarm" was therefore amusing.
15:35:05 <Taneb> elliott, get indoors
15:35:37 <Taneb> Do you have a roof?
15:36:32 <FreeFull> Sgeo: I've been recently learning S-Lang
15:36:38 <Taneb> I'll take that as a no
15:36:43 <Taneb> Get a roof, urgently
15:37:02 <Deewiant> Close any open doors and windows
15:37:13 <Taneb> Don't close your IRC window!
15:37:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull, uh, this thing? http://www.s-lang.org/
15:38:10 <Taneb> elliott, don't panic!
15:39:27 <FreeFull> Some features are actually pretty neat
15:39:29 <Sgeo> It doesn't look very Lisp-like
15:39:47 <Sgeo> But I didn't look that hard
15:39:54 <FreeFull> I'm just randomly saying stuff
15:40:05 <Sgeo> I thought you were a Lispy person
15:40:16 <Sgeo> I don't hate Lisp, I hate the ecosystem.
15:41:02 <FreeFull> I actually mostly write software in C
15:41:10 <FreeFull> But randomly do stuff in other languages
15:42:24 <Sgeo> Also CL's lack of coroutines isn't nice
15:42:35 <Sgeo> *non-hacky coroutines
15:42:45 <FreeFull> One cool thing about s-lang is that if you have an array x, and do x++, all members of x will be incremented by one
15:42:57 <FreeFull> And you can do that sort of stuff with more complicated expressions too
15:43:08 <FreeFull> I don't particularly like Common Lisp myself
15:43:52 <FreeFull> I suggest Racket or Clojure if you want a lisp
15:44:23 <Sgeo> Racket -- empty ecosystem, Clojure -- JVM compromises
15:45:02 <FreeFull> In s-lang, you can do something like variable x = sin([0:255]*PI/128.0);
15:45:09 <Sgeo> Although, I think I was recently put off Racket by one measly bad experience when I couldn't find a sprintf-like that fit my needs built-in
15:45:16 <Sgeo> Didn't bother looking for libraries :/
15:45:21 <Sgeo> Instead, just used Python
15:45:57 <FreeFull> Which is equivalent of this in C: double x[256]; int i; for(i=0;i<256;i++) { x = sin(i*M_PI/128.0); }
15:46:57 <FreeFull> Racket is all about libraries and sublanguages
15:47:29 <FreeFull> Python does have good libraries
15:48:23 <elliott> x = map (\i -> sin (i*pi/128)) [0..255]
15:48:46 <elliott> x = map (sin . (*(pi/128))) [0..255]
15:48:50 <elliott> might be able to drop some parens there actually!
15:50:48 <Sgeo> FreeFull, Haskell
15:51:34 <FreeFull> On the other hand Common Lisp doesn't even have range functionality built in
15:51:37 <elliott> x = [sin (i*pi/128) | i <- [0..255]]
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15:51:44 <FreeFull> And ends up with way too many parens
15:52:06 * Sgeo doesn't mind the parens, except for the resulting neccessity of using a good editor
15:52:24 <Sgeo> Erm, hmm, I think Notepad++ is probably sufficient for that aspect
15:52:42 <elliott> FreeFull: there are haskell implementations with repls, yes
15:52:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull, yes, sort of, but until recently it wasn't really full
15:52:47 <elliott> most importantly GHC, the only one anyone uses
15:53:02 <elliott> Sgeo: that's an inaccurate statement, really -- it is a property of implementations, not the language
15:53:26 <elliott> ghci has at least very well supported the kind of slime-style editor+repl hybrid style popular in lisp communities
15:53:27 <FreeFull> s-lang doesn't really have much functional programming stuff
15:55:13 <fizzie> The thing about VT-x is that you can't really tell from the processor brand, since it's a market segmentation tool.
15:55:17 <fizzie> Some Atoms do VT-x too.
15:56:46 <FreeFull> Checking for vt-x is easy software-wise, but you can only do that once you have the hardware
15:57:29 <fizzie> Well, checking it beforehand is "easy" since you can just look at http://ark.intel.com/Products/VirtualizationTechnology
15:57:35 <Vorpal> you could look up the model number of the CPU too
15:57:40 <Vorpal> before you order the CPU
15:57:48 <fizzie> It's just that you can't tell offhand, if you don't have that list memorized.
15:58:39 <Vorpal> what about AMD, do they do both with and without their virtualisation technology?
15:59:01 <fizzie> That I don't know. Probably, though.
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16:10:35 * Sgeo wants to destroy all single-dispatch OO systems
16:10:47 <Sgeo> ...ok, so maybe I'm not actually that hate-filled
16:10:56 <Sgeo> But multiple-dispatch makes more sense to me
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16:36:37 <kallisti> Sgeo: you are sipping some delicious Tcl kool-aid aren't you?
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16:37:55 <Sgeo> Not sure what preferring multiple-dispatch has to do with Tcl, especially since the various OO systems I've seen for Tcl including TclOO are single-dispatch, although I imagine Clojure-style multiple-dispatch is very easy to do in a hacky way
16:39:14 <kallisti> oh I thought tcloo was multi-dispatch
16:39:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Continuing on my party report series: "real wild" (i.e. anything that can display realtime graphics; YouScope was here, etc.) had 7 entries, of which 5 were just regular mobile things (iOS, Windows Phone, 3*Android), 1 was a WebGL/browser thing, and the final one was the only interesting one. (It was an otherwise unmodified Apple Lisa except with some custom hardware for sound and DVI ...
16:39:29 <fizzie> ... output, by some folks from http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/.)
16:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, youscope was from assembly?
16:40:16 <Sgeo> kallisti, I wish
16:40:22 <Vorpal> are you at assembly right now?
16:41:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, this whole weekend=
16:41:26 <kallisti> IIUC, multiple dispatch is a lot like typeclasses.
16:41:29 <fizzie> I've been sleeping at home like an old man.
16:41:36 <kallisti> specifically multi-parameter type classes
16:41:42 <fizzie> And probably won't bother coming back on Sunday since nothing interesting is happening.
16:41:50 <fizzie> But it's Thu-Sun technically.
16:42:17 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: Yeah, O10/5 or something.
16:42:37 <fizzie> It's the oldskool room thing thing.
16:46:37 <fizzie> The hall is kind of much more Assemblyish than this place. For one thing, it's (for the most part) not dark here at all.
16:46:50 <fizzie> But they hold the ArtTech seminars right next, so I can just sit here and listen to them.
16:49:25 <[]{}\|-_`^> fizzie: is oldskool room thing accesible by anyone?
16:49:42 <Sgeo> "Side note: I considered multiple dispatch for TclOO, but instead went
16:49:42 <Sgeo> for [proc]-like 'args' support as being more Tcl-ish. Can't really have
16:49:42 <Sgeo> both at the same time without the whole complicated business of a type
16:49:42 <Sgeo> system and well again, not Tcl-ish enough."
16:51:45 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: At least in practice it is. Probably in theory too.
16:52:03 <fizzie> Some earlier years there's been "vip tickets only" signs, but this year I haven't seen those.
16:52:14 <fizzie> Considering that the seminars are here, that probably wouldn't really work anyway.
16:52:38 <Vorpal> []{}\|-_`^, who are you?
16:53:04 <Vorpal> why would I be at assembly, isn't that a Finnish thing
16:53:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are quite a few visitors from abroad.
16:53:24 <fizzie> We had some Swedes right next to our places last year.
16:53:38 <fizzie> Though I would guesstimate at least 90% are Finns, still.
16:54:22 <fizzie> Quite a large percentage of not really demoscene people too; they have a gaming-specialized area, and gaming tournaments and so on, too.
16:54:32 <fizzie> I'd be more indignant but I'm currently installing that Death Rally game.
16:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just watched a video of it. Is that a coincidence?
16:54:52 * kallisti has been working on a hard sci-fi setting for tabletop games.
16:54:56 <Vorpal> the guy said it had no sense of speed
16:55:03 <kallisti> essentially depicting the early early days of human space colonization, within our own solar system
16:55:08 <Vorpal> or is this the original Death Rally?
16:55:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is the new one.
16:55:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Remedy people were giving out Steam codes for free.
16:55:39 <fizzie> I remember playing the original some, though.
16:55:53 <Vorpal> anyway, it doesn't seem very good
16:56:07 <[]{}\|-_`^> I had very good luck with computers this year. I managed to render my computer unbootable in 2 hours and I got it working again today when I installed mintppc on my mac
16:56:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Haven't installed it yet. But that's very possible. (Was the video about the PC port? I gather they have mobile versions too.)
16:57:00 <[]{}\|-_`^> so I was without computer whole friday and most of thursday
16:57:13 <Vorpal> I need to unify my music library, every computer and/or device has a slightly different set of music currently, and none is a superset of all the other ones
16:57:30 <Vorpal> also I believe some computers have the same stuff in flac that other ones have in ogg
16:57:41 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: mooz had a completely broken system for pretty much the entire duration of... Assembly 1999 or so, I think.
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16:57:59 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: He spent the whole weekend playing some DOS game from a floppy, if I recall correctly.
16:58:03 <fizzie> Paratroopers or something.
16:58:14 <calamari> []{}\|-_`^: did you experience computer withdrawal?
16:58:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes the video was about the port
16:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, totalbiscuit, if you know who that is
16:58:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I've heard the name and watched a thing once.
16:59:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've been watching ineiros play it for a few minutes now, and it doesn't really seem bad, just mediocre.
16:59:20 <Vorpal> anyway, apparently it was a reasonable port (rebindable keys, resolution options) but it didn't look all that much better than the iOS version, and the gameplay was very much iOS-oriented
16:59:46 <Vorpal> (short laps, like slightly over 1 minute for a 3 lap race, and no sense of speed when driving)
17:00:04 <fizzie> The old one felt quite terribly fast at times.
17:00:10 <fizzie> I guess I could try it out now, though.
17:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, say hi to him from me
17:02:04 <Vorpal> why does the "recommended" bar on youtube have like 10 happy wheel videos... I don't even watch those. I watched like one ages ago and decided it was crap
17:02:19 <elliott> fizzie: Did you refer to him as "that bc x vah guy"?
17:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hey you got it wrong :P
17:03:25 <[]{}\|-_`^> Vorpal: I was once sent link to my little pony video. youtube recommended me pony videos for 3 monts
17:03:47 <Vorpal> also why that terrible nick?
17:05:41 <Vorpal> oh well, too much work
17:07:58 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:28 < nortti> I think that []{}\|-_ are legal but otherwise it must be alphanumeric
17:08:32 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:30 -!- You're now known as []{}\|-_`^
17:08:38 <Taneb> I can't remember if I registered [-]. It may have already been done?
17:08:45 <Vorpal> I own _[] and []_ iirc
17:09:04 <[]{}\|-_`^> Taneb: 20:29 < Taneb> [-] is registered
17:09:12 <Taneb> Okay, that explains it
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17:31:06 <Gregor> “Pronunciätion” yes/no?
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17:33:50 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: Which side of the hall is B16?
17:34:13 <fizzie> I may have accidentally landed near it to watch this short film thing.
17:35:12 <fizzie> Well, apparently I'm watching something else altogether, but still.
17:36:43 <fizzie> Okay, no, I think this is the opposite side.
17:37:36 <FreeFull> 18:37:24 [Freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on {-} (account sjansen):
17:37:51 <FreeFull> Note that nickserv treats [-] and {-} as the same nick
17:38:39 <Vorpal> it follows the old format
17:38:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not "of course", I've seen CASEMAPPING=ASCII around.
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17:39:24 * impomatic is implementing the Mouse programming language :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(programming_language)
17:39:29 <fizzie> Maybe even with freenode's previous ircd.
17:40:13 <fizzie> Man, Rovio is really wasting my time here.
17:40:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? Angry Birds?
17:40:33 <fizzie> There's some Angry Birds Space insta-tournament going on.
17:40:44 <Vorpal> Angry Birds tournament?
17:40:44 <FreeFull> impomatic: Reminds me a bit of IBNIZ, but more useful for general use
17:40:49 <fizzie> And then they throw Angry Birds candy from the stage.
17:41:10 <fizzie> They throw hundreds of bags of candy.
17:41:13 <Vorpal> there is special candy?
17:41:22 <Vorpal> what does it look like
17:41:26 <Vorpal> and what does it taste like
17:41:31 <Vorpal> so not too terrible then?
17:41:52 <fizzie> It's very sort of generic, but not bad.
17:42:18 <fizzie> Also melts if it's too warm.
17:42:24 <impomatic> There doesn't seem to be a channel for Joy here :-(
17:43:01 <Vorpal> impomatic, is that a language?
17:43:10 <fizzie> Anyway, short film compo was supposed to start at 20:30 (it's 20:43 approx now) but... Rovio.
17:43:30 <fizzie> They're a main sponsor, I guess they can do what they want.
17:43:34 <Sgeo> Name a Stargate franchise episode for me to watch
17:43:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, so the thing is delayed?
17:43:57 <fizzie> Yes. But that's very typical.
17:44:06 <impomatic> Vorpal: yes, looks Forthlike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_(programming_language)
17:44:22 <Vorpal> can't click them properly in this irc client
17:44:27 <Vorpal> please url encode them
17:44:53 <Vorpal> hey firefox url encodes that when I copies it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_%28programming_language%29
17:45:23 <Vorpal> impomatic, a purely functional, but stack based language?
17:45:27 <Vorpal> how does that even work
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17:46:14 <Vorpal> impomatic, I don't get how a stack based language can be pure
17:46:24 <Vorpal> stack operations look like a side effect to me
17:53:36 <zzo38> I have once made up something in Haskell that the type indicate the stack and the stack operations can be in (->) category so it is pure; although you can also have them in (Kleisli IO) category too and so on
17:54:21 <zzo38> So yes I think it is possible in the right way
17:54:34 <zzo38> (Not specific to Haskell)
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18:59:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: Underload is sort of an esoteric variant of Joy
19:00:44 <oerjan> it is easy to think of it as pure algebra of programs instead of as acting imperatively on a stack
19:01:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, but then that is just two ways of looking at the same program?
19:01:46 <Vorpal> then the question is, which one is more accurate, if indeed one is
19:01:54 <oerjan> but i recall ais523 saying the first underload implementation was based on algebra, not stacks
19:02:46 <Vorpal> then the question becomes if you can transform the program into a purely functional one I guess
19:03:00 <oerjan> it's just that when you have a single global state (the stack), it is easy to just thread it through the program, like with haskell's State monad
19:03:42 <Vorpal> really, as long as you don't do IO anything can be rewritten into a form which is pure
19:03:58 <Vorpal> well, or have global state
19:04:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should try to get into Perl
19:04:16 <Vorpal> well you can work around that
19:04:40 <oerjan> yeah. and even if you do IO you can treat the IO system as an algebra you are constructing terms in
19:04:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, by this logic, any C code that performs no IO is basically a transformation of a pure program
19:05:00 <Vorpal> though that statement sounds somewhat insane
19:05:13 <Sgeo> CPAN is tempting
19:05:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no need, there is CTAN for TeX?
19:05:42 <Vorpal> (okay, not the same, but still)
19:07:26 <oerjan> any formal semantics of a programming language is pure, being math.
19:10:37 <coppro> is self-modifying haskell code bad
19:11:56 <Taneb> Is self-modifying haskell code possible?
19:12:41 <zzo38> Is there something like the tensor category where: swap . (f *** g) = g *** f seem also similar to having a commutative applicative isn't it? And is that related to what you have written about above? (x)(y)~ = (y)(x)
19:13:01 <zzo38> Taneb: I wouldn't think so but maybe there is if someone know what is the way.
19:13:02 <Vorpal> I presume it is possible in theory using unsafeSomething, probably not easy though
19:15:00 <Vorpal> could you get a pointer to the code and then unsafeCoerce it? Then given that the code isn't RO (can be arranged for with some linker options iirc, or if nothing else, a custom linker script), sure you could replace bits of machine code.
19:15:30 <Vorpal> don't know enough of the low level GHC internals to know if it is possible
19:15:43 <Sgeo> How about a loop that at the end loops by performing the code in some IORef
19:15:54 <Sgeo> Modify the contents of the IORef and you've change the actively running code.
19:18:43 <zzo38> Then perhaps you can use that to make a self-modifying code in Haskell but it would be difficult to self-modify the Haskell codes in that way. Also, it would be specific to the computer if you did that.
19:18:44 <oerjan> i suspect the problem with modifying anything not explicitly a reference type of some kind is that the haskell compiler has every right to assume it hasn't been modified, so you cannot assume the new version will be consistently perpetrated
19:18:48 <Taneb> Something in the GHC hidden modules?
19:19:00 <Taneb> Or Template Haskell
19:20:48 <oerjan> also, self modification is how laziness is implemented under the hood, in case someone didn't know that
19:21:12 <zzo38> Template Haskell is only for compile time, I do not think it can modify stuff at runtime
19:23:10 <oerjan> also the erlang method of just calling the new version tail recursively is much more sane in haskell too.
19:24:36 <oerjan> well i guess that's for self-modifying threads.
19:27:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i suspect the problem with modifying anything not explicitly a reference type of some kind is that the haskell compiler has every right to assume it hasn't been modified, so you cannot assume the new version will be consistently perpetrated <-- of course
19:28:25 <Vorpal> <oerjan> also, self modification is how laziness is implemented under the hood, in case someone didn't know that <-- I thought it used thunks?
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19:28:41 <Vorpal> <oerjan> also the erlang method of just calling the new version tail recursively is much more sane in haskell too. <-- well yes, but less fun
19:28:54 <oerjan> yes, but the thunks are replaced with the final result afterwards
19:28:59 <Vorpal> with self modification in code I think of actually writing out new bytecode or machine code to the memory
19:30:56 <oerjan> btw i think the haskell ffi does that kind of writing out in order to export haskell closures as C functions
19:31:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, can't that sort of stuff be determined at compile time?
19:31:38 <oerjan> because C has no way of creating a new function pointer referring to dynamic data
19:31:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: not if it's a runtime constructed closure...
19:32:22 <zzo38> In C you could make void* and cast to the other pointer but it won't necessarily work or do what is intended it depend on the computer you are implemented it on
19:32:24 <Vorpal> wow the haskell-platform is 422 MB according to aptitude
19:32:50 <Vorpal> well, at least that is how much disk space I will end up using by the new stuff I need to install
19:33:15 <Vorpal> yeah ghc stuff is like 95% of that
19:33:46 <oerjan> basically in C you'd usually implement a closure as something like a struct containing the closure data + a function pointer to a fixed function, but the haskell ffi specification says that an actual C function pointer must be constructed
19:34:11 <Taneb> unsafeCoerce :: Vector Word32 -> IO ()
19:35:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, no I would use pikhq's crazy gcc specific thing :P
19:35:36 <Vorpal> now I only want continuations in C
19:35:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: ghc is moving away from gcc to llvm anyway
19:35:44 <Vorpal> that isn't just setjmp/longjmp
19:35:50 <Vorpal> because those are so restricted
19:36:04 <Vorpal> oerjan, I thought it was moving away from it's own native generator to llvm rather?
19:36:09 <Vorpal> and had already dropped gcc
19:36:42 <oerjan> there was a post yesterday in reddit that the new ghc code generator is almost ready to be switched in, although that's for an earlier stage of the pipeline than the llvm/gcc/native decision
19:37:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: well yeah, although gcc is still available for temporary porting. also i vaguely think the ghc runtime is still ghc?
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19:38:20 <Vorpal> that is the unregistered one iirc?
19:41:26 <Sgeo> SAFECode makes me less.... angry at C and C++
19:48:32 <zzo38> Taneb: Sure you can do that but how are you going to know what it is going to do? It might crash.
19:48:45 <Taneb> I'm just throwing ideas about
19:49:14 <Taneb> If you know how Haskell works in the deep, and deepseq the vector, it might be doable
19:51:30 -!- prx has joined.
19:51:46 <HackEgo> prx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:52:21 -!- prx has left.
19:57:00 <oerjan> we shall assume he's continuing his quest at dal.net
19:59:10 <zzo38> People argue about why scorpions are good? Someone write a report about why scorpions are good and then some people argue about it. Including such things as music, statistics, meaning of words "pet" (both the noun and verb), and astrological signs.
20:00:07 <oerjan> a stinging report, no doubt
20:00:43 <zzo38> (My conclusion is that one of the meanings doesn't count becuase it is intransitive.)
20:01:41 <oerjan> never do a tango with a scorpion
20:02:02 <zzo38> Here it is (my messages are labeled "Not a pipe", which is short for "The Free Land of Not a pipe"): http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=193916
20:02:09 <zzo38> oerjan: You are probably correct.
20:02:36 <zzo38> They even argue about pictures
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20:16:14 <FreeFull> impomatic: What do you think about IBNIZ?
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20:22:02 <zzo38> Do you know the switch of "magic" and "more magic" that has only one wire but still causes the computer to crash if the switch is moved?
20:24:37 <oerjan> i have read this ancient lore, yes
20:24:55 <zzo38> Do you know how the switch works?
20:26:15 <oerjan> no. i think there have been suggestions, though.
20:26:50 <Sgeo> It bothers me that so many Tcl extensions are in C
20:26:55 <Sgeo> Wish they were in Tcl.
20:27:17 <Phantom_Hoover> All the tellings I've seen have used the explanation that the computer's ground and its case had a potential difference large enough to restart it when connected.
20:27:20 <Sgeo> C makes it seem so... impure, like the language itself doesn't quite have the facilies to extend it within itself.
20:27:42 <Sgeo> Maybe it's just an efficiency thing?
20:37:42 <FreeFull> zzo38: It has only one wire but the other terminal is connected to a grounded metal rail
20:42:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: I think you are correct.
20:45:16 <zzo38> Sometimes I want to do such things as self-modifying codes and and so on but is difficult because I also want to be portable
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20:53:06 <impomatic> I'm just playing with this. http://ibniz.asiekierka.pl/ibniz.html :-)
20:55:57 <Sgeo> It was making weird sounds even with the audio checkbox disbaled
20:57:18 <impomatic> $G 1% N: 2 F: ( N. F. \ 0 > ^ F. 1 + F: ) F. N. < [ F. ! "" #G, N. F. /;] @ ~ Prime Factors in Mouse...
20:59:15 <FreeFull> Asiekierka is a pretty cool guy
21:01:45 <impomatic> FreeFull: I haven't implemented an interpreter yet. There are a online in Pascal, C and Z80 asm.
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21:45:13 <zzo38> If you have a .NSF playing library, I would suggest to implement the functions: play(byte accumulator) and poke(int address, byte value)
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22:34:16 <kmc> cheap beer in 2L plastic bottles
22:34:18 <kmc> what a country
22:36:21 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like the next Stripe CTF thing might be on Aug 22.
22:36:39 <fizzie> Someone told an anecdote about being in Germany, asking for a "big beer" expecting 0.5l (the standard "big" in Finland) but getting a full litre.
22:36:52 <kmc> shachaf: cool
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22:53:54 <kmc> i will be back in the USSA at that time
22:54:09 <Taneb> United Soviet Socialist America?
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23:57:30 <zzo38> What is "cookness-diamond.volia.net"? I remember they connected to my computer once before, and I don't know what it is.
23:57:56 <zzo38> (The only thing I could find was an FTP service which did not allow anonymous login.)
23:59:32 <oklopol> so did someone finish clop?