←2012-09-01 2012-09-02 2012-09-03→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:02:39 <zzo38> I am looking at LLVM document, so that once they add a byte size specification it could compile into RogueVM.
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00:07:20 <Sgeo> "We request 16,000 random bytes of data from random.org. We then mix (using a bitwise XOR) those bytes with 16,000 internally generated pseudo-random bytes, in case there is a bias in the bytes from random.org. "
00:07:41 <Sgeo> Might the pseudorandomly-generated bytes be more problematic?
00:08:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Either way, since they are not related to each other, it cannot cause more problem that they already have.
00:09:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: if random.org has no bias, and the internal ones have no dependency on them, then the result will have no bias (basically one time pad theory)
00:09:48 <Sgeo> Ah, that makes sense.
00:10:20 <zzo38> That is what I meant.
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01:53:18 <FreeFull> oerjan: But it's possible to take a biased source of entropy and unbias it
01:53:36 <FreeFull> Which random.org is guaranteed to do
01:53:37 <kmc> not only is it possible, it's a common CS interview question ;)
01:54:05 <kmc> you can turn independent flips of a biased coin into independent flips of a fair coin
01:54:22 <kmc> but i'm not sure what you can do with non-independent inputs
01:54:30 <oerjan> well assuming they're independent and equally distributed, that's easy
01:54:31 <FreeFull> Basically, if you get 01, that's a 1, if you've got 10, that's a 0 (or the other way around), if you get 11 or 00, you discard it
01:54:41 <kmc> depends on what the dependence is
01:54:51 <FreeFull> This will work as long as there is no correlation between consecutive bits
01:55:18 <kmc> i think you can do it a bit more efficiently, but yeah
01:55:46 <oerjan> not if even index bits have a different distribution than odd index bits >:)
01:56:19 <zzo38> If that is the only difference in distribution, then you can easily account for that, though.
01:57:03 <oerjan> naturally.
01:57:25 <kmc> In Which Many True Things are Said.
01:58:11 <oerjan> And KMC Turns Inside Out.
01:58:46 <FreeFull> Of course, if the source is 010101010101010101010101 (strong correlation between bits) then it won't work at all
01:58:49 <shachaf> More efficiently by looking for 1100/0011/11110000/00001111/etc.?
01:59:07 <kmc> i don't remember
01:59:46 <shachaf> kmc: I heard Haswell is going to have a 56-bit address space.
01:59:50 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's not actually a correlation, or rather the expression would become 0/0 or something like that.
01:59:55 <kmc> fun
02:00:07 <shachaf> Not for people like sbahra who were using those bits!
02:00:10 <kmc> up from 48?
02:00:14 <shachaf> Yes.
02:00:18 <kmc> yeah, well, the architecture tries to discourage you from doing that :)
02:00:22 <kmc> what was sbahra doing?
02:00:36 <shachaf> Something in concurrencykit
02:00:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: After 0, there is a 100% chance of 1
02:00:46 <FreeFull> And vice versa
02:01:30 <shachaf> Apparently it's a big enough win that he's adding some runtime checks for whether those can be used or not.
02:01:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: the definition of corr(X,Y) makes that 0/0
02:02:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: the thing is you cannot correlate with something which doesn't actually _vary_.
02:02:56 <oerjan> another clue is that the odds and even bits are actually independent then.
02:03:26 <oerjan> which is the case whenever all probabilities are 0 or 1.
02:20:37 <zzo38> What instructions and other features do you think would be useful for virtual machine used for roguelike games and other similar grid based games?
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02:22:03 <zzo38> The mouse button on my computer might be broken; sometimes when I push once it act as double clicked
02:22:39 <zzo38> How to fix this?
02:23:12 <shachaf> Push it half, rather than once.
02:23:19 <shachaf> It'll count the half-click as a single click.
02:23:46 <zzo38> This mouse cannot go half. Also, I do not think that is the problem.
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02:25:51 <oerjan> damn i hate it when i've opened several tabs, taking great care to wait until each stops using cpu, and then _suddenly_ and old one wakes up and use it all up. and i cannot even find out which.
02:26:02 <oerjan> *an old
02:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti why are you oerjan
02:27:54 <oerjan> i recall a couple years ago or so, tabbed browsing used to be nice :(
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02:29:01 <zzo38> Why do you even open too many tabs at once? The problem is the browser is doing a lot of stuff because it is too complicated.
02:30:11 <oerjan> zzo38: but it shouldn't matter when each tab is not using cpu :(
02:31:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes they shouldn't be using CPU a lot anyways.
02:31:34 <oerjan> i just went through r/science on reddit and open all the tabs i wanted to read before reading most of them. and i had _just_ finished opening all when one of them started the thrashing
02:32:11 <zzo38> Turn off the features which cause that
02:32:30 <zzo38> Problem is, it is too complicated.
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02:33:16 <zzo38> Advertising blocker may be able to speed it up a bit and so can other things such as scripts off (or selectively), etc
02:37:27 <kmc> ministat is such a great program
02:37:33 <kmc> did someone here tell me about it?
02:38:43 <shachaf> Not me.
02:38:46 <shachaf> I don't even own a television.
02:39:07 <shachaf> Oh, wait, not that sort of program.
02:39:31 <kmc> c.c
02:39:56 <shachaf> There was a program called "Yes, Minister"
02:40:12 <shachaf> Followed by one called "Yes, Prime Minister"
02:40:17 <shachaf> If I remember correctly it was good.
02:40:20 <shachaf> (But it's been a while.)
02:41:18 <itidus21> we get that here
02:41:27 <itidus21> i need to see it more often
02:42:56 <itidus21> it occured to me when i was watching that once that politics and quantum physics have a lot of common ground
02:43:03 <itidus21> ^mechanics
02:43:24 <zzo38> In what way?
02:44:47 <itidus21> well, i think that the trick to boiling an egg is filling a saucepan with regular tap water over a flame and adding an egg
02:45:10 <zzo38> OK
02:45:14 <itidus21> this process really exemplifies the boiling of an egg
02:45:44 <itidus21> is there any more questions?
02:45:51 <zzo38> I don't know.
02:46:44 <itidus21> nah..
02:47:09 <itidus21> my dad explained to me once that the point was that they would say a lot without actually saying anything
02:47:21 <itidus21> the egg thing was a bad example of that
02:47:31 * oerjan thinks itidus21 just earned a hit with the saucepan ===\__/
02:47:45 <zzo38> A hot saucepan this time.
02:48:01 <zzo38> With eggs in it.
02:48:12 <oerjan> i don't have any eggs.
02:48:33 <zzo38> Too bad.
02:48:34 <itidus21> maybe i have been thinking about eggs..
02:48:36 <itidus21> because i do
02:50:40 <zzo38> Please tell me review of RogueVM specification I have added a lot I need you to tell me if anything is wrong or if I missed anything important!
02:50:51 <itidus21> zzo38: i think it was an episode where the prime minister learns that if he announces something publically, it becomes official
02:51:12 <itidus21> where i was thinking about quantum
02:51:19 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
02:51:44 <itidus21> i hope and pray that the egg is not in any episode
02:52:59 <itidus21> i was just randomly tv watching one day
02:53:10 <itidus21> a bit like bird watching except birds follow a schedule
02:55:19 <kmc> i just realized that today is an important holiday for my people (hippies)
02:55:43 <zzo38> What important holiday is that?
02:55:53 <kmc> the day on which the Man burns
02:56:34 <shachaf> You should've gone!
02:56:38 <kmc> nah
02:56:55 <kmc> i'm doing important startuppy things here
02:57:12 <shachaf> What kind of hippie are you?
02:57:16 <kmc> if i had delayed my employment another week, i wouldn't be employee #1!
02:57:20 * shachaf doesn't actually know what "hippie" means.
02:57:25 <shachaf> Who's employee #2?
02:57:27 <kmc> do you know how much, like, cachet comes with that?
02:57:38 <kmc> shachaf: a person you probably don't know
02:57:43 <shachaf> Oh.
02:57:50 <shachaf> Do I know any of employee -3-0?
02:58:05 <kmc> maybe?
02:58:10 <kmc> i don't know who you know
02:59:02 <kmc> what kind of hippie am i? the kind who has already been to Burning Man once ;)
03:03:47 <kmc> shachaf: did you go to the stripe web ctf meetup?
03:03:54 <shachaf> Yep.
03:04:03 <shachaf> I think I talked about it a bit while I was half-asleep in here yesterday.
03:04:08 <kmc> did they say anything about another CTF?
03:04:24 <shachaf> They talked as if they're planning to keep making them.
03:04:32 <shachaf> I don't remember whether they said anything concrete.
03:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: You should add the word "kentucky" to your vocabulary.
03:07:09 <shachaf> «KENTUCKY (adv.) Fitting exactly and satisfyingly. The cardboard box that slides neatly into an exact space in a garage, or the last book which exactly fills a bookshelf, is said to fit 'real nice and kentucky'.»
03:07:36 <kmc> ...
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03:15:37 <oerjan> shachaf: OHIO
03:15:54 <kmc> there's no escaping from ohio
03:16:33 <oerjan> Ohio! Washington? Nevada.
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03:40:25 <shachaf> kmc: 20:39 <@lexande_> hunpuns
03:42:15 <kmc> uhachaf
03:42:35 <shachaf> Oh, lexande_ is here.
03:45:15 <lexande_> i heard there was a discussion of frequent flyer miles but i guess i'm rather late for that
03:49:58 <oerjan> yeah, no miles for you!
03:59:48 <lexande_> that's okay, i think i have enough for my purposes
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04:23:53 <zzo38> You are going to have kilometres instead.
04:28:49 <lexande_> LAN's frequent flyer program uses kilometres actually
04:28:54 <lexande_> but i don't know of any other that does
04:29:17 <coppro> hmm
04:29:20 <coppro> blue kilometers?
04:29:39 <lexande_> even e.g. Air France and Lufthansa use miles
04:30:19 <zzo38> I do not like this word "tonne"/"metric ton".
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04:30:51 <lexande_> Aeroflot even
04:41:03 <kmc> Миля
04:42:38 <kmc> rewards programs were invented in the USA because airlines were prohibited from changing prices directly, yeah?
04:42:59 <kmc> did a similar regulatory environment exist in other countries, or did they just copy the US rewards systems later?
04:44:36 <shachaf> Oh, I hadn't heard about that. Makes some sense.
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04:45:03 <lexande_> kmc, no the first frequent flyer programs were post-deregulation
04:45:20 <shachaf> Ah.
04:45:26 <kmc> oh really
04:48:46 <lexande_> when the airlines had government-granted monopolies on many routes it was not so necessary for them to go out of their way to incentivise customer loyalty
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04:51:30 <kmc> i had read that it was a backdoor mechanism for price competition
04:51:34 <kmc> but apparently this was inaccurate
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04:52:40 <lexande_> they did have other backdoor mechanisms back in the day, mostly in the form of inflight product
04:53:38 <lexande_> also those little houses you still get on KLM business class, because they weren't allowed to give customers "gifts" but they were allowed to give customers free alcohol
04:54:13 <lexande_> i guess those aren't really backdoor mechanisms, just competing on other things
04:54:13 <shachaf> Houses?
04:54:36 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/KLM_DelftBlueHouses.PNG
04:55:35 <shachaf> Hm.
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04:59:32 <elliott> pikhq
04:59:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:59:33 <elliott> are you there
05:00:07 <shachaf> > hi "elliott"
05:00:10 <lambdabot> helliott
05:00:18 <elliott> no
05:00:22 <shachaf> No?
05:00:31 <shachaf> I didn't make that command.
05:00:37 <zzo38> Who was it who answered a few day ago about the RogueVM? At the time I did not write enough. Now I need help know if it is enough or if it is all wrong.
05:00:45 <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:02 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:11 <HackEgo> 858) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:20 <shachaf> Yesterday: 23:09 <zzo38> That still does not tell me what codes I need to make this internet service.
05:02:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever figure that out?
05:02:40 <zzo38> No, I did not.
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05:04:54 <shachaf> http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160386904/in-bike-friendly-copenhagen-highways-for-cyclists
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05:04:57 <shachaf> That's pretty friendly.
05:08:07 <kmc> nytimes i think had an article about this recently
05:11:10 <elliott> kmc: please tell me you know http semantics
05:12:37 <pikhq> elliott: ?
05:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: it's ok i solved it without you
05:12:51 <kmc> what about http?
05:12:52 <elliott> sorry :(
05:12:56 <kmc> what are u talking about
05:12:59 <elliott> kmc: is it ok for /foo/bar to be 200 but /foo to be 404
05:13:06 <elliott> or should i make /foo and /foo/ be 403 instead or whatever
05:13:27 <pikhq> Kay, I'll just continue thinking about how much more performance I can squeeze out of this VM.
05:13:40 <kmc> elliott: i don't know; i'd be surprised if that's in the spec
05:13:54 <pikhq> I'm worried that to do much more I'll need a JIT.
05:13:58 <kmc> i think the interpretation of URLs as paths is pretty under-constrained
05:14:02 <pikhq> But I'm *so close* to beating LuaJIT without one!
05:14:04 <kmc> but idk
05:14:07 <elliott> kmc: i don't care about spec, only what the cult ideology is
05:14:26 <elliott> pikhq: what are you doing
05:14:34 <kmc> ok well wrong cult
05:14:42 <kmc> ask someone who lives in SF and has tight jeans
05:14:48 <pikhq> elliott: Squeezing the clock cycles from an interpreter.
05:14:51 <elliott> kmc: what's your cult
05:14:53 <elliott> pikhq: interpreters for what
05:14:58 <kmc> dunno
05:15:15 <pikhq> elliott: Moderately artificial VM spec.
05:15:31 <kmc> cult of the least fixed point
05:16:06 <pikhq> I've already got it down to basically a threaded Forth interpreter in C.
05:17:13 <zzo38> What VM is this?
05:17:55 <pikhq> zzo38: The interpreter's https://github.com/pikhq/cmako, the VM's from https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
05:18:04 <lexande_> the least fixed point is a great prophet but not my messiah
05:18:11 <pikhq> John Earnest being the IRL name of RodgerTheGreat, who was last in here a few years ago.
05:22:36 <pikhq> It's been fun to work on, and at some point I got to where I need to start comparing any benchmarks I do with GCC and LuaJIT...
05:22:52 <pikhq> Slower than both, of course, but by less than you'd expect.
05:34:47 <shachaf> kmc: I saw a Union Pacific train when I was waiting at the Caltrain station!
05:34:50 <shachaf> It was very long.
05:35:43 <lexande_> one of those three freight trains a day, for the benefit of which CAHSR is going to spend many billions more than otherwise necessary
05:43:29 <kmc> creating jobs!
05:44:32 <kmc> freight trains are very long
05:44:43 <kmc> the ones that come through downtown Cambridge, MA on the surface are not so long
05:44:52 <kmc> because they go very slowly and people would get pissed off at waiting 20 minutes at the crossing
05:47:48 <lexande_> also because there isn't all that much freight moving by rail east of the hudson
05:51:41 <lexande_> well, especially not northeast of boston, which is the only place they'd be going if passing through downtown cambridge
05:53:23 <shachaf> My DVD was making worrying noises, so I'm `dvdbackup`ing it.
05:53:33 <shachaf> Now it's still making those noises but hopefully it'll only make them once.
05:53:42 <elliott> dvds don't make noises, shachaf!!!
05:54:45 <shachaf> elliott: Oh no!
05:54:50 <shachaf> What did I put in my DVD drive, then?
05:55:03 <kmc> but who was phone
05:55:32 <shachaf> 1.2G
05:55:35 <elliott> shachaf: kmc
05:55:43 <kmc> not 1.21G?
05:55:49 <shachaf> kmc: sorry ':(
05:55:50 <elliott> he's trying to get out but he's too polite to bother you about it
05:56:01 <shachaf> Oops. I'm so sad I'm crying upwards.
05:56:01 <kmc> ?
05:56:14 <kmc> oh i am trapped inside shachaf's DVD drive
05:56:21 <kmc> trapped in fortune cookie factory
05:59:25 <shachaf> 1.6G
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06:12:12 <shachaf> This is making all sorts of exciting noises.
06:12:19 <shachaf> I wonder whether I could play music with it.
06:14:15 <kmc> sleep, ttyl
06:14:19 <kmc> good luck with your dvd
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06:17:39 <zzo38> Is the version numbering system of RogueVM good? (page 12)
06:19:59 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
06:22:16 <elliott> yes
06:26:23 <zzo38> Did you read it?
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06:27:33 <zzo38> I wrote about the version numbers only a few minutes ago.
06:28:04 <elliott> well,
06:28:05 <elliott> maybe no :(
06:28:08 <elliott> but I am sure it is good!
06:28:38 <zzo38> That isn't a very good answer.
06:28:48 <zzo38> s/answer/reason/
06:28:49 <elliott> :/
06:28:50 <elliott> i am sorry
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08:11:55 <AnotherTest> Hello
08:12:44 * itidus21 googles "crate", unsure which ones are actual crates and which ones are just rendered
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08:46:35 <Lumpio-> I don't think crates exist in real life
08:46:43 <Lumpio-> Didn't they just create the concept to have a handy structure to climb on in games?
08:47:05 <fizzie> Let's ask a dictionary.
08:47:07 <fizzie> @wn crate
08:47:07 <lambdabot> *** "crate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:47:08 <lambdabot> crate
08:47:08 <lambdabot> n 1: a rugged box (usually made of wood); used for shipping
08:47:08 <lambdabot> 2: the quantity contained in a crate [syn: {crate}, {crateful}]
08:47:08 <lambdabot> v 1: put into a crate; as for protection; "crate the paintings
08:47:10 <lambdabot> before shipping them to the museum" [ant: {uncrate}]
08:47:19 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't mention games.
08:53:07 <oklo> your mother doesn't mention games
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09:31:12 <oklo> sorry that was kind of mean
09:44:54 <fizzie> It was kind of median.
09:51:18 <AnotherTest> https://github.com/AnotherTest/X.so yay
09:52:10 <atriq> @messages?
09:52:10 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
09:57:10 <fizzie> Sad. :(
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10:50:57 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Ptr (Something a))) (Maybe (Ptr (Someting a)))
10:51:13 <atriq> I'm not sure why Ptrs
10:51:28 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Something a)) (Maybe (Something a))
10:51:51 <atriq> left :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); left (Something _ a _) = a
10:52:08 <atriq> right :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); right (Something _ _ a) = a
10:53:07 <atriq> foo :: Something (); foo = Something () (Just foo) (Just foo)
10:58:19 <spirity> I've been playing magic the gathering
10:58:21 <spirity> does anyone else play this game?
10:58:28 <atriq> I'm more of a Sopio fan
10:58:53 <spirity> would you like to play a variant of chess with portals?
10:59:15 <spirity> and projectile attacks?
10:59:23 <atriq> Didn't kallisti do that a while back?
10:59:29 <spirity> yes
10:59:32 -!- spirity has changed nick to kallisti.
10:59:33 -!- kallisti has changed nick to spirity.
10:59:36 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
10:59:38 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
10:59:40 <spirity> ohai
10:59:43 <atriq> Already have, heh
10:59:50 <spirity> wow imagine that.
11:00:00 <spirity> I was thinking of a few tweaks
11:00:26 <atriq> Go on?
11:00:55 <spirity> I wasn't sure what the queen should be
11:01:36 <spirity> it could be a piece that produces reflectors
11:01:43 <spirity> which are just little tokens. coins or dice or whatever.
11:02:13 <spirity> but also
11:02:26 <spirity> it would be interesting to have a special rule that enables you to revive old pieces
11:02:44 <shachaf> spirity: Can you just stick with one nick, please?
11:02:52 <spirity> yes. I will stick with this one.
11:03:33 <shachaf> Can you stick with one of the previous ones?
11:03:55 <spirity> why should I do that?
11:04:08 <atriq> Doesn't kallisti mean "for the fairest" or something in Greek?
11:04:30 <spirity> yep
11:04:42 <spirity> I worship the god Eris
11:05:01 <atriq> Fair enough
11:05:23 <shachaf> You should try irc.efnet.org
11:06:20 <fizzie> That sounds illogical.
11:06:45 <fizzie> It's the Eris-Free network, after all.
11:07:37 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
11:07:58 <Arc_Koen> hello
11:08:15 <atriq> Hi
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11:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> d
11:29:41 <atriq> d indeed
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13:39:06 <itidus21> atriq: the last thought i had about chess was to take away the board, and play on some arbitrary real world terrain
13:40:52 <itidus21> an extension of that idea would be that anywhere on earth counts as the board
13:41:07 <atriq> "What are you doing in my house!?"
13:41:09 <atriq> "Playing chess"
13:41:33 <atriq> "I'm trying to sleep!"
13:42:00 <atriq> "Hey, you didn't complain when Dan moved his rook into the Tate Modern"
13:42:12 <atriq> "Why on earth would he do that!?"
13:42:26 <atriq> "To pin my bishop against my queen so I couldn't check him."
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13:53:00 <itidus21> as the game of chess takes place on chessboard on mars surface, "what you're using insanely expensive computer equipment to play games?"
13:53:26 <itidus21> "don't worry, i will be a hero in 70 years"
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14:30:39 <Arc_Koen> "stalemate" "no! I was about to discover water under his rook!"
14:31:50 <Gregor> “If you know what I mean.”
14:35:15 <quintopia> hi
14:36:58 <Arc_Koen> "talking about exploration rovers... I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what you mean"
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15:07:51 <fizzie> "Why are we talking all in quotes?"
15:08:47 <AnotherTest> bye
15:08:51 <AnotherTest> "I'll be back."
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15:10:02 <atriq> "Hello"
15:10:12 <atriq> "My name is Inigo Montoya"
15:10:16 <atriq> "You killed my father"
15:10:19 <atriq> "Prepare to die"
15:10:49 <atriq> Oh, we were still on this?
15:20:48 <fizzie> "I don't know."
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15:27:24 <kmc> hello
15:35:59 <kmc> it turns out that upgrading X was actually useful
15:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "How interesting."
15:42:15 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { char prog = 'X'; prog--; printf("downgraded X: %c(ayland)", prog); }
15:42:19 <HackEgo> downgraded X: W(ayland)
15:46:17 <atriq> `runc int main(void { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:46:21 <HackEgo> No output.
15:46:41 <atriq> `runc int main(void) { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:46:46 <HackEgo> 110
15:47:11 <atriq> How curious
15:47:13 <fizzie> What is this, some kind of undefinedness competition?
15:47:22 <atriq> Yes
15:47:28 <atriq> That is EXACTLY what this is
15:53:44 <atriq> That's the same as GCC, for probably very simple reasons
15:54:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't be so sure that "GCC" (every version, every platform) does the same thing there.
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15:56:21 <Arc_Koen> atriq: in nandypants, what do you mean "Adds a to the output stream"?
15:56:37 <atriq> Oh, that's going a long way back
15:56:51 <kmc> what implementation is `runc?
15:57:07 <atriq> The contents of the cell pointed to in tape A, Arc_Koen
15:57:30 <atriq> In whatever format the implementer wants
15:57:30 <fizzie> kmc: It's just echo "$@" | gcc -x c - -o $t && $t.
15:57:44 <kmc> ok
15:57:49 <Arc_Koen> yes i got that, but what does the output stream do with it? print it as a 0 or 1? or wait to have 8 bits before printing it as a char?
15:58:24 <atriq> Implementation dependant
15:58:27 <fizzie> The !c in EgoBot has some kind of an unconditional main-wrapping around it.
15:58:29 <fizzie> !c printf("x\n");
15:58:30 <atriq> I never really thought about it?
15:58:31 <EgoBot> x
15:58:32 <fizzie> !c int main(void) { printf("x\n"); }
15:58:34 <EgoBot> No output.
15:59:08 <atriq> ! int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
15:59:13 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
15:59:14 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
15:59:46 <atriq> :)
16:00:18 <fizzie> I like ##c's candide's ,cc, it's got all kinds of stuff like a lot of guesswork about what code goes where, support for giving options, input, doing editing and s///'s on the program, gdb integration and whatnot.
16:01:01 <fizzie> If you don't generate any output, it produces a list of all locals of main by default.
16:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, you need to have brackets after main to call it..l.
16:01:22 <atriq> Aaah
16:01:30 <atriq> C is not something I am very good at
16:01:33 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:35 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
16:01:35 <fizzie> 19:01 <fizzie> ,cc int x = 10; int y = (x++ * x++) + x++;
16:01:36 <fizzie> 19:01 <candide> fizzie: [warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]] <no output: x = 13; y = 110>
16:01:41 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:44 <EgoBot> x
16:01:56 <atriq> I missed a bracket
16:02:19 <fizzie> I would like to know what that actually compiled.
16:02:47 <Arc_Koen> atriq: you don't need to call main
16:02:55 <fizzie> Possibly a nested function inside the autogenerated main.
16:03:04 <atriq> Arc_Koen, in this implementation you do
16:03:12 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}
16:03:14 <EgoBot> No output.
16:03:19 <Arc_Koen> uh, ok
16:03:31 <atriq> It runs C statements, not C programs
16:03:47 <fizzie> That's probably because it ends up as int main(void) { int main(void) { printf("x\n"); } } for !c.
16:07:38 <kmc> shachaf: Should I use my free EC2 micro instance for something?
16:07:45 <kmc> I guess I could move IRC and other chat to it
16:09:33 <pikhq> kmc: I'm tempted to do the same.
16:14:19 <fizzie> But then all the CONFIDENTIAL #esoteric chatter would be OBSERVED by a MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION.
16:15:37 <kmc> they would use timing attacks to steal my cryptos :(
16:15:56 <kmc> by 'they' i mean anyone with an instance on the same hardware
16:17:40 <fizzie> They would use acoustic sidechannel attacs using the accidentally user-exposed microphone on the neighbouring machines, too.
16:19:52 <kmc> your mind is the scene of the crime
16:24:21 <kmc> !c while(1) fork();
16:25:36 <kmc> !c printf("Still alive?\n");
16:25:38 <EgoBot> Still alive?
16:25:55 <fizzie> "Spaghetti fork: A fork with a metal shaft loosely fitted inside a hollow plastic handle. The shaft protrudes through the top of the handle, ending in a bend that allows the metal part of the fork to be easily rotated with one hand while the other hand is holding the plastic handle. This supposedly allows spaghetti to be easily wound onto the tines. Electric variations of this fork have become ...
16:25:56 <kmc> !c asm("nop");
16:25:58 <EgoBot> No output.
16:26:02 <fizzie> ... more prevalent in modern times."
16:26:04 <fizzie> Why have I never seen an electronic spaghetti fork?
16:27:12 <fizzie> (Or a cranked one, for that matter.)
16:28:00 <kmc> !c printf("%ul\n", sizeof(void*));
16:28:02 <EgoBot> 8l
16:28:06 <kmc> heh
16:28:33 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof (void*)); /* let's be correct about it, okay? */
16:28:36 <EgoBot> 8
16:29:06 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof main); /* And sillier about it too? */
16:29:08 <EgoBot> 1
16:29:20 <fizzie> That's indeed very silly.
16:29:45 <pikhq> ... But main is a int(*)(int,char**). Surely that's not size 1.
16:29:53 <fizzie> "The sizeof operator shall not be applied to an expression that has function type --"
16:30:13 <fizzie> The thing about function designators automatically yielding a pointer does not work when it's an operand of sizeof.
16:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 and
16:30:59 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It's actually getting the size of the function itself, and in GNU C a function has size 1 for confusing reasons having to do with pointer arithmetic on function pointers and void pointers being permitted.
16:31:23 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof(int(*)(int,char**)));
16:31:26 <EgoBot> 8
16:31:30 <pikhq> That's better.
16:31:35 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof &main); /* is also okay */
16:31:37 <EgoBot> 8
16:32:25 <kmc> !c int x=0; printf("%d\n", x);
16:32:27 <EgoBot> 0
16:32:52 <kmc> !c unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x);
16:32:54 <EgoBot> AuthenticAMD
16:33:56 <Gregor> Havin' fun?
16:34:00 <kmc> yep
16:34:09 <Gregor> `echo You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:12 <HackEgo> You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:19 <kmc> yeah, i have used HackEgo
16:34:24 <kmc> how do i run C code with HackEgo?
16:34:29 <Gregor> `gcc
16:34:32 <HackEgo> gcc: no input files
16:34:43 <kmc> does it have a one-liner function like EgoBot?
16:34:50 <fizzie> I just added that 'runc' there.
16:34:55 <fizzie> You just asked about it, too.
16:34:58 <kmc> `runc printf("foo\n");
16:35:02 <HackEgo> No output.
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16:35:04 <fizzie> It doesn't main-wrap.
16:35:13 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:13 <kmc> `runc int main() { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:17 <HackEgo> foo
16:35:24 <kmc> `runc int main() { unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x); }
16:35:28 <HackEgo> AuthenticAMD
16:35:33 <Gregor> My eventual goal was to replace EgoBot entirely with HackEgo functionality, but I'm a lazy punk.
16:35:34 <fizzie> Don't those run on the same system, anyway?
16:35:34 <HackEgo> foo
16:35:51 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, they're fundamentally the same except that HackEgo has a persistent FS.
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16:41:30 <kmc> huh, GCC will optimize printf("%s\n", x) to puts(x)
16:42:38 <Gregor> Yup.
16:42:58 <kmc> i wish i could say that's due to some crazy partial evaluation supercompilation mumbo
16:43:06 <kmc> but it's almost certainly due to GCC's hard-coded knowledge of printf
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16:43:32 <Gregor> Of course it is.
16:44:21 <fizzie> GCC knows about timed hits.
16:45:13 <fizzie> It won't optimize printf("%d\n", 1); to puts("1");, however. (At least mine doesn't.)
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16:45:31 <kmc> timed hits?
16:46:06 <fizzie> It's a Super Mario RPG reference.
16:46:16 <fizzie> (Also a tvtropes trope.)
16:46:56 <kmc> ok then
16:46:59 <Sgeo> The fuck
16:47:04 <Sgeo> Doing my homework online
16:47:06 <Sgeo> Multiple choice
16:47:16 <Sgeo> The answer is pretty blatently not one of the choices
16:48:37 <fizzie> Inspect Element and write your own. (Is not going to do anything sensible.)
16:48:56 -!- FreeFull has quit.
17:00:22 <kmc> drop out of school
17:15:22 <Sgeo> Oh, the correct answer is here, not sure what I was thinking before
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17:28:38 <AnotherTest> Hello
17:28:56 <kmc> hi
17:31:21 <shachaf> kmc: Like what?
17:32:22 <kmc> i don't know!
17:32:29 <kmc> maybe move IRC and other chat to it
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17:32:59 <shachaf> You could get a "real" VPS thing instead of an EC2 Micro instance.
17:33:26 <kmc> sure, but the EC2 micro instance is free, and I've already signed up for the service
17:33:55 <shachaf> Well, running IRC on it sounds reasonable, I guess.
17:34:26 <AnotherTest> wait - is #esoteric moving from freenode?
17:34:43 <shachaf> Yes -- we're all going to go onto kmc's little EC2 Micro Instance.
17:35:01 <AnotherTest> That doesn't sound good, but I assume irony
17:35:12 <kmc> AnotherTest: i meant that I would run my IRC client on said micro instance
17:35:19 <AnotherTest> ah
17:35:27 <AnotherTest> sorry wasn't following
17:35:30 <shachaf> AnotherTest: I assure you there was no irony intended.
17:35:36 <kmc> i wasn't very clear
17:36:27 <Sgeo> Whatthefuck
17:36:44 <Sgeo> http://www.flounder.com/badprogram.htm#clipboard
17:36:54 <Sgeo> "I've seen people use it for interprocess communication. This is absolutely beyond any shadow of a doubt the WRONG thing to do."
17:37:02 <Sgeo> Why the fuck would anyone use the clipboard like that
17:37:19 <kmc> because people are stupid
17:38:04 <kmc> more charitably, because people are interested in getting their particular thing working in their particular environment, and don't worry about it being robust or "good practice"
17:39:47 <AnotherTest> Why are you reading about bad code?
17:39:52 <AnotherTest> That always makes me sad
17:40:05 <AnotherTest> Use of malloc/free in C++ programs -> so true
17:40:49 <AnotherTest> also that's not "potentially harmful"
17:41:00 <AnotherTest> that should be "potentially fatal"
17:41:10 <kmc> eh, that one's not so bad, assuming you're using it for POD and not objects
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17:41:17 <AnotherTest> delete something that was allocated with malloc (with C++ delete)
17:41:21 <AnotherTest> that should be fatal
17:41:27 <kmc> yes, that's another matter
17:42:04 <shachaf> Yes, you never want to do it with C++ delete. That's why I use C/C++ delete.
17:42:52 <AnotherTest> isn't "not using RAII" on the list?
17:43:13 <AnotherTest> hm. it isn't
17:45:57 <AnotherTest> oh it's just windows applications
17:46:55 <AnotherTest> Has anyone here ever heard of "Anshu Avinash of the Programming Club"
17:47:01 <AnotherTest> pclub.in or something
17:50:15 <AnotherTest> I think he's trying to steal my source code :(
17:50:15 <AnotherTest> Well he might not. Not sure.
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17:59:13 <fizzie> You could say that regular copying and pasting is a form of interprocess communication.
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18:17:17 <Sgeo> Clojure's -> annoys me
18:17:23 <Sgeo> http://blog.fogus.me/2010/09/28/thrush-in-clojure-redux/
18:24:28 <kmc> Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals, and ask that you report any problems to uniformed personnel inside.
18:24:33 <kmc> Thank you for shopping at Arco AM/PM, and have a pleasant day.
18:25:40 -!- kmc has set topic: Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:26:01 <shachaf> @arrco
18:26:02 <lambdabot> Drink up, me 'earties
18:28:01 <fizzie> What's the "AM/PM" for? Open often?
18:29:03 <kmc> yeah
18:29:15 <fizzie> The web-shop of the Finnish national railway company (VR) is closed from 23:30 to 06:00. Because, as everyone knows, the Internet is closed at night.
18:29:46 -!- nortti has joined.
18:29:59 <fizzie> (You get timetables 24H, but it's not possible to buy tickets during that time.)
18:30:14 <kmc> the B&H Photo website closes for the Sabbath
18:31:03 -!- sinbitt has joined.
18:32:00 <fizzie> Oh, and our bank said that extra mortgage payments are discouraged near the start/end of month when the scheduled payment goes, because if it happens too close to it, the system might get all confused, and then there might be trouble. (Completely coincidentally, there was a recent magazine article about the state of the COBOL, which mentioned the bank in question still having large COBOL ...
18:32:06 <fizzie> ... systems up and running.)
18:32:17 <kmc> a lot of people have large COBOL systems up and running
18:32:25 <fizzie> I don't.
18:32:49 <fizzie> Anyway, it's possible some of those systems can be a bit... inflexible.
18:33:13 <kmc> yeah
18:33:26 <kmc> but replacing it would involve a huge amount of expense and trouble
18:33:34 <kmc> and will probably result in something that's even buggier
18:33:52 <kmc> at least the 30 year old COBOL program's bugs are probably well documented
18:34:32 <fizzie> They did say their current development uses Java technologies, IIRC.
18:34:45 <kmc> Java truly is the COBOL of the 21st Century
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18:35:57 <fizzie> But they're having some trouble finding "real" COBOL programmers, that would still happen to be alive. Apparently there's a reasonable supply of people who know it somewhat well, but the Real Men are dying off.
18:36:55 <kmc> that is a problem
18:37:40 <mroman> Learning COBOL is actually fucking hard.
18:37:48 <mroman> That's the problem imo :)
18:37:57 <Sgeo> I know a little bit of the basics
18:38:21 <mroman> It's not like lisp, python, php, ruby, java which you can learn the basics in less than a week
18:39:24 <Sgeo> I don't think the basics are that difficult
18:39:47 <shachaf> hi mr. oman
18:40:17 <Sgeo> Each program is divided into divisions. There's a division for information about the program, a division for things such as files that will be accessed, a division for declaring all variables that will be used, I think there's other divisions, and there's a division for the actual instructions that will be run
18:40:44 <mroman> I know.
18:40:49 <Sgeo> The last division is divided into I forget the term. Either paragraphs or procedures.
18:41:44 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/cobol
18:41:59 <Sgeo> There are people who want to learn COBOL, and an article saying why you should learn COBOL
18:42:17 <shachaf> http://www.cobol.com/
18:42:37 <mroman> I don't beleive in "why you should" articles.
18:42:37 <kmc> that's, like, MVC, man
18:42:53 <mroman> especially in "why you should learn" and "why you should beleive"
18:43:02 <kmc> why not?
18:43:42 <shachaf> They're always written by moralists.
18:43:56 <shachaf> "ih8u moralists"
18:45:01 <mroman> kmc: Because there are always reasons for anything.
18:46:32 <mroman> The sponsors of every language can tell you each 20 reasons to learn their language.
18:46:48 <mroman> and some of them might even be the same.
18:48:08 <mroman> and 75% of the reasons are actually good reasons.
18:48:59 <mroman> and they are written from a personal viewpoint of the author.
18:49:39 <AnotherTest> "why you should not believe why you should articles"
18:49:42 <mroman> that ultimatively biases it.
18:49:53 <mroman> AnotherTest: Nice one ;)
18:50:23 <mroman> If you are a COBOL programmer I'd actually want you to give me reasons NOT TO learn COBOL
18:50:49 <mroman> and if there are few reasons not to learn it, then I actually might.
18:51:03 <kmc> mroman: uh, of course the articles are biased, you have to take that into account when you read it
18:51:12 <kmc> do you in general refuse to read anything with an opinion
18:51:28 <shachaf> kmc: I only read the unbiased weblog articles on the Internet.
18:51:30 <mroman> If somebody really knows his stuff, he can tell me the weaknesses of it.
18:51:32 <shachaf> This is a time-saving measure.
18:51:32 <AnotherTest> I don't think you will find a lot of information that doesn't contain opinion
18:51:42 <mroman> Else he's just so biased of his language that I just won't listen to him.
18:51:54 <kmc> mroman: maybe that should be a different article though
18:51:56 <kmc> anyway
18:52:11 <kmc> biased or not, such articles can still make you aware of cool features that make the language worth learning
18:52:15 <kmc> note also, worth learning != worth using
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18:52:27 <mroman> They provide an insight, yes.
18:52:30 <mroman> Agreed.
18:52:40 <AnotherTest> Let's write a "Why you should learn brainfuck"
18:52:56 <nortti> yes!
18:53:03 <fizzie> A "why you should make a brainfuck derivative" article is what the wiki is missing.
18:53:05 <mroman> But when it comes to languages I'm more interested in knowing where they are bad at.
18:53:17 <kmc> that's also different from "reasons not to learn it"
18:53:23 <kmc> you are being very sloppy with language
18:53:43 <AnotherTest> learning a new (programming) language is generally not a bad idea I think
18:53:56 <kmc> people focus too much on languages, anyway
18:54:09 <kmc> i think most interesting "Why you should learn $X" articles will not be about languages
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18:54:15 <nortti> should I really leaen cobol?
18:54:21 <mroman> kmc: Agreed @focus too much on languages
18:54:31 <kmc> i'd rather read "Why you should learn <interesting library>" instead of "Why you should learn <my favorite slight variant on perl/python/ruby/php/javascript>"
18:54:52 <shachaf> I heard d3.js was an interesting library.
18:55:00 <fizzie> I heard that too.
18:55:04 <subleq> i heard that too
18:55:10 <subleq> i can't figure out how to use it though
18:55:16 <fizzie> Or perhaps I just looked at some examples and thought that it looked interesting.
18:55:22 <AnotherTest> I heard boost::spirit was interesting
18:55:34 <AnotherTest> it took me 30 minutes to compile the first example though
18:55:37 <mroman> I haven't heard a damn thing .
18:55:42 <AnotherTest> oh and the second one didn't work
18:55:57 <AnotherTest> so I didn't try the third one
18:57:07 <kmc> boost::spirit is interesting but don't try to use it for actual work
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18:57:14 <kmc> "just like C++, or Haskell"
18:57:32 <kmc> http://mbostock.github.com/d3/talk/20111116/airports.html
18:57:38 <AnotherTest> kmc: I actually used boost::spirit::classic(yay!) for X.so
18:57:50 <AnotherTest> kmc: well, that's esoteric work I guess
18:57:52 <shachaf> Ah, boost::spirit
18:58:05 <AnotherTest> the classic version is actually nice
18:58:09 <AnotherTest> but v2 is not
18:59:02 <AnotherTest> bye
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19:20:10 <zzo38> My hardware NSF design fills up the $4018-$403F area exactly with no bytes left over.
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19:46:08 <zzo38> Learn COBOL if you want to learn Common Business Oriented Language.
19:46:30 <nortti> NSF?
19:47:09 <shachaf> zzo38 is talking about the National Science Foundation, of course.
19:47:09 <Sgeo> Learn COBOL if you love using global variables for everything.
19:47:17 <atriq> Something to do with the NES, I believe, nortti
19:47:23 <zzo38> nortti: NES/Famicom music files.
19:47:44 <Sgeo> Hmm "The COBOL 2002 standard includes support for object-oriented programming and other modern language features.[1]
19:47:45 <Sgeo> "
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19:50:42 <zzo38> However the interrupt routine uses 30 clock cycles and I am unsure if this can be reduced, or how many clock cycles other hardware NSF players use, etc
19:51:12 <atriq> Oh no, I've got a Wolfram Alpha account now
19:51:28 <fizzie> atriq: I heard you can use it to dig into your Facebook.
19:51:42 <atriq> That is the PRECISE reason I'm making an account
19:52:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, I might be wrong
19:53:17 <fizzie> Sgeo: Inconceivable.
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20:04:26 <Sgeo> On my friends network I have 4 clusters of 2 people
20:06:21 <itidus21> therefore S would be for Sound
20:06:39 <atriq> I have a completely separate cluster of 8 people
20:07:13 <atriq> And I'm fairly sure Gregor is in a cluster unto himself
20:07:25 <itidus21> also if Nintendo changed their name to NES Corporation, the acronym would hold as NES Entertainment System Sound Files
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20:08:29 <itidus21> like KFC Fried Chicken
20:08:37 -!- nortti has joined.
20:10:38 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/15/nyregion/chicken-little.html
20:13:27 <itidus21> sometimes i feel inauthentic when thanking people, especially bus drivers
20:13:55 <nortti> why?
20:14:16 <itidus21> i think because i figure i would say it anyway even if i wasn't thankful
20:14:27 <itidus21> like it was a rule
20:15:14 <fizzie> I don't thank bus drivers. :/
20:15:15 <nortti> oh. misread inauthetic as nausetic
20:15:24 <fizzie> It's kind of rare here.
20:15:29 <itidus21> ahhh
20:15:33 <fizzie> Well, except when buying a ticket.
20:16:00 <fizzie> But not when just beeping the card at the machine.
20:16:11 <fizzie> Some people say "thanks" when exiting the bus, but that's like less than 10% I'd say.
20:16:17 <itidus21> oh well i mean when getting off the bus. yeah
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20:17:15 <itidus21> the fact that i dwell on such things is probably cause for concern
20:17:24 <fizzie> Usually the driver's all the way in front, and our bus conventions call from exit through the middle or the back door, so it'd need quite a loud "thanks", and that just feels out-of-place.
20:18:58 <fizzie> Finns are known to be really impolite, though.
20:19:10 <itidus21> hmm i think what actually happens is
20:19:22 <itidus21> the politeness information is probably just expressed by other means
20:20:07 <itidus21> maybe thats being deluded of me though
20:20:09 <itidus21> :P
20:22:56 <impomatic> I say thanks to the driver... Unless they're a jerk!
20:23:16 <impomatic> "You can't drink that on the bus, company policy" (soft drink / water)
20:23:20 <itidus21> i guess the fact that some drivers are jerks reminds you they're human
20:24:26 <fizzie> Well. I don't know if it's expressed at all. But I suppose it's a cultural thing and not the kind of thing that we'd be inherently more rude in a thinks-less-of-others sense. I don't think bus drivers expect to be thanked (when getting off) here, either, since it's not a Thing That Is Done.
20:25:39 <itidus21> yeah..... if i was more normal.. i wouldn't have made this a topic
20:25:59 <itidus21> so my views are not representative of normal
20:27:02 <fizzie> And there's no direct translation of "please" when you're ordering/asking for something, though you can sort of optionally use the thanking word as a suffix there.
20:28:05 <fizzie> But it's not especially rude to just say what it is that you're e.g. buying, without any extra frills.
20:30:39 <fizzie> "This is not a day of national mourning in Helsinki, this is Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no one but themselves."
20:31:05 <fizzie> So began a "60 minutes" US TV program, talking about how tango has landed to Finland.
20:31:13 <fizzie> It caused a bit of a stir.
20:31:22 <fizzie> (This was in 1992 or something.)
20:31:41 <fizzie> (I heard the sentence, sampled, in some piece of music somewhat recently.)
20:32:42 <itidus21> well, USA should begin by getting a proper name for the nation
20:33:15 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c -- it's... kind of disparaging.
20:33:26 <kmc> in NYC there are signs in buses and trains reminding you that assaulting the driver will get you 7 years in prison
20:34:07 <itidus21> somehow those signs never get seen on tv :D
20:34:17 <kmc> they are pretty small
20:34:41 <kmc> Linux's seccomp now lets you give a fine-grained specification of which system calls are allowed
20:34:46 <kmc> using... a Berkeley Packet Filter program
20:35:18 <fizzie> The metropolitan area transportation conglomerate recently introduced a rule that all buses need to have this strong-glass pane that goes up to the ceiling in-between the driver and the passengers.
20:35:23 <fizzie> To cut down on... problems.
20:35:36 <itidus21> i think its interesting that people refer to USA as either US or A or USA
20:36:04 <itidus21> "the states" is a fun one
20:36:16 <atriq> Nobody calls it U
20:36:19 <atriq> Because it isn't
20:36:53 <kmc> The Great Satan
20:37:16 <itidus21> i suppose occasionally some might call it north america
20:37:26 <kmc> there are other countries in north america...
20:37:36 <itidus21> yeah, but theres even more countries in america :D
20:37:43 <fizzie> kmc: What, isn't Canada just some kind of a part of USA?
20:38:06 <fizzie> America's hat, or what do they say.
20:38:11 <kmc> well once Barack Obama and the UN finish their conspiracy to create a united North American government with a single currency, the Amero
20:38:20 <kmc> cause there's nothing the US wants more than to be in a currency union with Mexico
20:38:44 <itidus21> it's as if the sudanese referred to sudan as africa
20:38:52 <fizzie> Though I did see someone calling USA "Canada's underpants".
20:39:02 <kmc> itidus21: heh, yes
20:39:15 <itidus21> maybe im missing the point though... its easy in australia where the nation is literally a continent
20:39:25 <itidus21> its the easiest possible naming system
20:39:36 <kmc> the Roman province of Africa was only a bit of Tunisia and Libya
20:39:51 <itidus21> this? this is the state of south australia, in the nation australia, in the continent australia
20:40:13 <kmc> the words "state" and "nation" are super ambiguous too
20:40:15 <kmc> while we're at it
20:40:37 <itidus21> next to it is the state of western australia... and to the north is the northern territory territory of the nation of australia in the continent australia
20:41:27 <itidus21> and in the middle of new south wales is a usefully named territory called the australian capital territory which unsurprisingly is where canberra is
20:41:38 <atriq> itidus21, what about New Zeeland and Papua New Guinea?
20:41:53 <itidus21> oh i forgot
20:41:55 <itidus21> crud
20:41:58 <itidus21> they are in oceania
20:42:08 <itidus21> i don't know what oceania is
20:42:39 <nortti> it is 1 of 3 countries of the worl: oceania, eurasia and eastasia
20:42:45 <nortti> *world
20:42:52 <itidus21> so close....
20:43:03 <itidus21> my name utopia is crumbling
20:43:11 <nortti> ?
20:43:52 <itidus21> reading the first paragraph makes it clear that its pointless to discretely define oceania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania
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20:51:59 <impomatic> Aren't we at war with Eastasia?
20:52:04 <impomatic> Or is it Eurasia?
20:52:31 <nortti> eastasia. you have always been in war with eastasia
20:52:40 <nortti> hi from eurasua
20:52:47 <nortti> *eurasia
20:54:15 <itidus21> i suppose they just make up these words as they go
20:55:06 <itidus21> basically sets of nations which aren't constrained by being a landmass
20:56:11 <itidus21> but, they probably enjoy the ambiguity by using a name rather than actually specifying a set
20:57:09 <itidus21> maybe so that noone knows what they're talking about
20:58:25 <itidus21> "we are at war with eurasia" "...does that mean?" "no, don't worry you're not part of eurasia (fingers crossed behind back)"
20:58:54 <itidus21> ok well.. maybe the fingers don't have to be crossed
21:00:48 <impomatic> We're allied with Eurasia :-)
21:01:21 <nortti> and you have always been
21:01:39 <itidus21> i was thinking about "present company excluded" yesterday, this seems relevant
21:04:12 <itidus21> "all men and women are holding this country back, present company excluded"
21:05:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Urgh, I had to listen to the elaborately-synchronised orchestration to the end-of-Fringe fireworks on a 15 second delay because the local radio station's stream had such high latency.
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21:13:41 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, except for the divorce, and another plot hole, I kind of liked the Doctor Who episode
21:14:08 <Phantom__Hoover> eggs
21:14:10 <Phantom__Hoover> term
21:14:11 <Phantom__Hoover> in
21:14:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ate
21:16:19 <Sgeo> In Clojure there's some sort of discussion about the Eclipse Public License
21:16:35 <Sgeo> How it's not GPL-compatible because it protects freedoms better, supposedly?
21:16:56 <impomatic> Sgeo: what plot hole?
21:17:06 <Sgeo> "The EPL, however, requires that anyone distributing the work grant every recipient a license to any patents that they might hold that cover the modifications they have made. Because this is a "further restriction" on the recipients, distribution of such a combined work does not satisfy the GPL.["
21:17:20 <Sgeo> impomatic, why would the switch to the forcefield be inside the asylum?
21:17:28 <Sgeo> That seems unwise
21:18:26 <impomatic> I've only just seen it. We had a power cut from 7:10 to 8:30 last night. Then iPlayer wouldn't work. It's almost as they everything conspired to stop me watching...
21:18:51 <Sgeo> g2g
21:19:26 <mroman> Sounds great @EPL.
21:23:33 * kmc is hacking in front of huge monitors, drinking mountain dew and listening to infected mushroom
21:23:36 <kmc> i'm such a cliche
21:30:29 <itidus21> sometimes in the late hours i think about the passing of pets and family. and the social, financial and mental problems which cause regrets of how the time was spent compared to how it could have been spent
21:30:30 <fizzie> Drinking some infected mushrooms and listening to Mountain Dew.
21:30:45 <itidus21> and then i spend 15minutes with an actual human, and think, damn humans really shit me
21:32:37 <kmc> that sounds uncomfortable for both of you
21:33:08 <zzo38> I thought GPL already requires a patent license?
21:35:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i think some of my regrets are caused by idealized memories of people
21:36:12 <fizzie> The local possibly-largest computer hardware (and other stuff) e-tailer sells nowadays these "rare american" soft drinks etc. (like cherry cola and coke in aluminum bottle-shaped imperial-units containers and Snapple and whatever) because obviously people drinking that stuff are more "authentic".
21:36:16 <itidus21> a regret such as "how come i wasnt nice to that guy?" .. then the realization "he raised my blood pressure when he started talking"
21:36:20 <itidus21> just a hypothetical
21:36:26 <fizzie> They also sell that Gamer Grub stuff.
21:37:49 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/19
21:38:29 <fizzie> I think they had a couple others on the same theme.
21:38:41 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: was his voice too high-pitched or something? I wonder how many decibels are needed to get one's blood boiling
21:39:38 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: its easy to forget what annoying means when around _relatively_ unannoying people
21:39:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh XD
21:40:45 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: sometimes I forget what annoying means when around an annoying person who's particularly less annoying than usual
21:40:57 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, hm could you actually cook stuff with sound?
21:41:31 <Vorpal> I guess you could in theory
21:41:35 <Vorpal> practically though?
21:41:37 <Arc_Koen> science will answer to that question but she's busy at the moment
21:42:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: so this device would be soundproof, and have a heck of a lot of noise inside?
21:42:43 <Arc_Koen> I guess this could figure as an xkcd's "What if we used sonar cookers instead of solar cookers"
21:43:36 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, indeed
21:43:44 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, have they done that?
21:44:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, why does it need to be sound proof? Who cares about side effects :P
21:44:04 <Arc_Koen> maybe have a way to concentrate the sound... "loud amplification by stimulated emission of resonance"
21:44:38 <itidus21> one form of annoying sound is eating with mouth open
21:44:47 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: well, I'm guessing if we can have such a silly idea, there's a good chance someone has had it before
21:44:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think there are some ultrasonic heating based things.
21:44:55 <itidus21> the effects are mitigated if you yourself are eating with mouth open
21:45:03 <itidus21> in a hearty way
21:45:19 <Vorpal> how can you eat with mouth open?
21:45:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, really? that is awesome
21:45:29 <Vorpal> got a source for that claim though?
21:45:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: well the chewing after putting the food in your mouth
21:46:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, it would fall out...
21:46:10 <Vorpal> wouldn't work
21:46:22 <Vorpal> unless it is sticky like some sweets
21:46:42 <itidus21> to make it worse the food is inside a paper bag which is inside a plastic bag
21:46:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound "Ultrasonic welding"
21:47:22 <fizzie> Also some other things based on ultrasound-induced cavitation. (Which releases heat.)
21:47:37 <Vorpal> heh
21:48:05 <fizzie> The welding thing is a bit far from first connotations of "sound" though.
21:48:57 <itidus21> ok so loud noises are not so good for cooking
21:49:43 <fizzie> Didn't see anything that'd really be based on pressure waves in air (cavitation happens in liquids); I'm sure you can get *some* heat energy somewhere, but it doesn't sound exactly practical.
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21:51:58 <itidus21> someone has made a patent for ultrasonic cooking apparatus
21:53:18 <nortti> is there anything patentable that is not patented?
21:53:55 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: oh it does sound... maybe not practical though
21:54:04 <fizzie> nortti: People keep patenting new things, so if we take as granted that all the granted patents are for novel inventions (ha!), sure.
21:55:12 <itidus21> it keeps corporations busy :D
21:55:17 <itidus21> and lawyers
21:59:11 <zzo38> Whatever I make, I don't patent. This way it saves money.
21:59:39 <itidus21> they keep maintaining the pretense that the modern patent system has anything to do with invention, or protecting IP
22:02:24 <itidus21> to begin with, its a form of protection you have to pay for...
22:02:52 <itidus21> which is kind of strange compared to most laws about protection
22:05:32 <itidus21> like you don't have to apply to an agency and pay in advance for legal protection for your body from being beaten up
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22:05:58 <itidus21> for some reason, you just get legal rights for free when it comes to being beaten up
22:08:01 <itidus21> so my question is what-if patents were free?
22:08:13 <zzo38> Maybe next time you get beaten up, you should tell them that you did not pay for legal protection
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22:09:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i am good at getting through life without fights, but part of that is luck
22:19:08 <oerjan> <spirity> I worship the god Eris <-- *godess hth
22:19:15 <oerjan> oops *goddess
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22:41:28 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
22:41:32 <oerjan_> hm
22:41:35 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
22:41:52 <oerjan> OKAY
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22:54:12 <kmc> i worship the goatass eris
22:54:27 <oerjan> OKAY
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23:00:46 <kmc> in C, is there a better way to write while (1) { if (foo) continue; ...; if (bar) continue; ...; if (baz) continue; ...; return x; }
23:00:49 <kmc> other than goto
23:01:27 <shachaf> What's bad about that?
23:01:49 <kmc> nothing's especially bad about it; I am just wondering if there's a better way
23:01:56 <shachaf> Oh, I see. It's more of an if+goto than a loop.
23:01:58 <kmc> it seems kind of silly to have a loop which only runs all the way through once
23:02:08 <shachaf> Right.
23:02:28 <kmc> the loop receives packets and i want to return the first one which passes a series of criteria
23:02:42 <kmc> which are too complicated to be expressed nicely in a single boolean expression
23:02:55 <shachaf> Even if you put them all in different functions or something?
23:03:05 <kmc> that would be too much code
23:03:45 <zzo38> Can you use the ?: operator?
23:04:40 <kmc> not nicely
23:05:35 -!- shachaf has changed nick to SHACHAF.
23:07:15 <zzo38> Can you use macros?
23:07:22 * SHACHAF is a macro
23:07:29 <kmc> not nicely
23:07:57 <SHACHAF> I think separating your predicates out into their own functions is vaguely nice.
23:08:02 <SHACHAF> Maybe you can use nested functions in GCC!
23:10:00 <kmc> socket(2) is a weird syscall
23:10:23 <kmc> why shouldn't it be open("/dev/net/inet/tcp", ...)
23:11:26 <SHACHAF> Isn't that what it is in Plan 9?
23:11:52 <kmc> probably
23:12:31 <SHACHAF> Networking was kind of hacked onto Unix, I understand.
23:13:18 <kmc> "you don't say"
23:13:29 <kmc> UNIX was kind of hacked onto Space Travel
23:13:36 <SHACHAF> The socket API (in particular parts of it, like sending fds over sockets and all that) is kind of terrible. :-(
23:13:52 <kmc> yeah i feel like there should be an achievement badge for that
23:13:55 <kmc> "sent a fd over a socket"
23:15:34 <SHACHAF> What about "did it in order to do something useful"?
23:15:52 <SHACHAF> I think they did that at RDB at one point.
23:15:58 <kmc> "does exploiting CVE-2012-0056 count as something useful"
23:16:16 <oerjan> kmc: while (!foo) { ...; if (!bar) { ...; if (!baz) { ...; return x; } } } /* YOU CAN THANK ME LATER */
23:16:54 <SHACHAF> The C idiom of flattening things out is actually nice.
23:17:10 <SHACHAF> I mean things like void foo() { if (!x) return; ... }
23:17:39 <pikhq> kmc: Surely it'd be more like open("/dev/net/inet/tcp/hostname/port") :)
23:18:20 <kmc> yeah
23:18:27 <kmc> that would replace some other syscalls too
23:19:59 <SHACHAF> bash has that.
23:20:09 <pikhq> SHACHAF: Yeah, but it's not on the C level.
23:20:26 <SHACHAF> Yes.
23:26:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: Did you know lexande_ has been to the place I lived in in WA?
23:29:54 <kmc> no
23:31:42 <kmc> huh, just discovered a weird quirk in C99
23:31:52 <kmc> you can put declarations anywhere, but you still can't put a label on one
23:32:56 <SHACHAF> Hmm, so you might have statements that you can't goto?
23:33:04 <kmc> well, they're not statements, they're declarations ;)
23:33:14 <kmc> even though they can appear anywhere and can have arbitrary code as initializers
23:33:14 <SHACHAF> Expressions.
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23:34:55 <zzo38> The macros in C are often not powerful enough
23:35:57 <pikhq> kmc: foo: ; fixes that. :)
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23:39:44 <kmc> heh, good point
23:43:04 <SHACHAF> Oh, that's a good label syntax.
23:43:06 <SHACHAF> foo:;
23:43:17 <kmc> it so looks like a typo
23:45:07 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To dumbshows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongu
23:45:48 <ion> Ah. foo: ; } is a way to get a label to the end of a function. :-)
23:46:12 <SHACHAF> foo: ;)
23:46:18 <SHACHAF> Er.
23:46:20 <SHACHAF> foo: ;}
23:46:24 <oerjan> SHACHAF: never find your tongu
23:46:38 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:46:50 <ion> shachaf: y u no use splitlong.pl? It comes with your client of choice.
23:46:56 <SHACHAF> ion: Sounds like work.
23:47:08 <SHACHAF> Why do I need it when I have oerjan?
23:47:16 <oerjan> PRECISELY
23:47:41 * oerjan proceeds to tie SHACHAF's shoe laces for him
23:47:42 <SHACHAF> ørjan is very useføl
23:47:45 <ion> (mkdir -pv ~/.irssi/scripts && cd ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl .) and /script load splitlong
23:48:09 <SHACHAF> whoa, dude, it's actually pre-installed!
23:50:55 <SHACHAF> ion: Why not just make an "autorun" directory?
23:51:28 <ion> I’m not sure /script load looks into autorun.
23:51:41 <SHACHAF> Oh, so one is for now and one is for next run?
23:51:58 <SHACHAF> 16:51 -!- Irssi: Loaded script splitlong
23:52:10 <SHACHAF> 16:45 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To
23:52:16 <SHACHAF> dmb shows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:52:21 <SHACHAF> Does that really say "dmb shows"?
23:52:29 <SHACHAF> splitlong.pl is awful. :-(
23:52:39 <oerjan> let's see whether this works properly and all according to specification like it very well absolutely and definitely should for sure, am i right of course i am you dolts just testing and HI's not a ctcp SHACHAF, try something that actually exists instead and maybe you might get an answer but only if i feel like it OKAY? have a good day and did this get long enough...
23:52:46 <oerjan> i think that's a no.
23:52:58 <SHACHAF> oerjan: HI is totally a CTCP
23:53:00 <SHACHAF> Want proof?
23:53:02 <oerjan> NOWAI
23:54:03 <oerjan> how does one send replies anyway?
23:54:44 <oerjan> also, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...
23:54:44 <SHACHAF> /ctcp shachaf REPLY HELLO
23:54:49 <oerjan> ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasbestos
23:56:00 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Sorry for lying. :-(
23:56:04 <SHACHAF> It's actually /nctcp
23:59:28 <ion> shachaf: Huh. splitlong never resulted in anything like the “dmb shows” thing when i used irssi.
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