←2012-09-02 2012-09-03 2012-09-04→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:04:51 -!- soundnfury has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:04:10 <kmc> NAND flash chips are binned by cycles before failure
01:04:15 <kmc> i wonder how they test that on a brand new chip
01:05:28 <SHACHAF> kmc: http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1986/ch861126.gif
01:05:42 <kmc> :)
01:06:32 <SHACHAF> You haven't hated on XKCD in, like, ages, man.
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01:13:44 <kmc> none of the recent ones have been remarkably bad
01:13:53 <kmc> they're just dumb in ways we have seen many times before
01:13:59 <SHACHAF> Ah.
01:14:06 <SHACHAF> It's not even interesting enough to mock now?
01:14:16 <SHACHAF> "the ultimate in mediocrity", reports area man
01:14:16 <kmc> correct
01:14:24 <kmc> plus i'm trying to be less negative, as a person
01:14:33 <SHACHAF> Oh.
01:14:35 <kmc> i think my opinion of xkcd is well-known here by this point
01:14:44 <kmc> there's no point repeating it, if i'm not adding new information
01:14:52 <kmc> i have been enjoying what-if.xkcd.com though
01:15:22 <SHACHAF> What should I put in an RSS feed for someone's birthday?
01:15:25 <kmc> ?
01:16:08 <SHACHAF> I guess I can put "Happy Birthday" in it.
01:16:26 <oerjan> "What are you still alive?"
01:16:36 <kmc> you're... giving them an RSS feed?
01:16:49 <oerjan> very chic
01:16:53 <SHACHAF> I run a couple of RSS feeds that my father subscribes to.
01:17:08 <SHACHAF> Perhaps I'll put a birthday thing in one of them.
01:17:18 <SHACHAF> These are RSS feeds for web comics.
01:17:19 <kmc> clever
01:17:27 <zzo38> Are you going to change your name to Fire Void?
01:18:01 <kmc> this SSD has dropped in price 50% since February
01:18:51 <SHACHAF> How much does it cost now?
01:19:00 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get an SSD.
01:19:13 <kmc> Intel 520 240GB, $230 at Newegg
01:19:32 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get a big external hard drive and do backups.
01:19:35 * SHACHAF has no backups.
01:19:36 <kmc> by all reports, one of the best SSDs
01:19:39 <kmc> yikes
01:19:45 <kmc> maybe i should do off-site backups
01:19:55 <SHACHAF> I have $50 of Tarsnap credit.
01:20:34 <zzo38> I wrote a program to combine multiple .NSF into one .NSF file, although there are some restrictions, such as the input cannot use any expansion chips other than MMC5 and Namco 163, and the output will use the Famicom Disk System expansion in addition to the ones used on the input.
01:38:06 <zzo38> I want to invent backgammon card.
01:53:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official channel of PEZ | PEZ is the best candy. Why have you abandoned PEZ? | Do not fret, PEZ can forgive you. Give yourself freely to PEZ. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
01:54:31 <oerjan> i shall assume this was simple substitution applied to a text containing the phrase "Jesus is the best candy."
01:55:22 <Gregor> 'fraid not ;)
01:55:26 <Gregor> I was just eating PEZ.
01:55:42 <oerjan> YOU ATE JESUS? YOU BASTARD!
01:55:58 <zzo38> oerjan: Doesn't everyone?
01:56:13 <oerjan> oh right, that communion thingy
01:56:19 <oerjan> never been do it
01:56:21 <oerjan> *to
01:56:56 <Gregor> In the new, hip Catholic church, they use Charleston Chews instead of crackers.
01:58:10 <zzo38> Don't you know that canon law forbids them to do that? (Well, they already violate canon law by not having a pipe organ, so...)
01:58:26 <oerjan> sounds good, although i shall assume it's sickly over-sweet per my american candy stereotypes
01:58:44 <oerjan> pipe organs are mandatory?
01:59:00 <kmc> cannon law trumps canon law
01:59:03 <zzo38> Yes, although many churches do not have it anyways.
01:59:10 <oerjan> i'd have thought they were quite hard to get by around jesus' time
01:59:24 <Gregor> oerjan: It's nougat and chocolate. It's actually one of the least sweet American candies, I'd say.
01:59:33 <Gregor> Mass-produced, that is.
01:59:35 <zzo38> Yes that is true; but it is not Jesus' time today!
01:59:51 <oerjan> but but surely canon law is eternal!
02:00:05 <zzo38> Well, actually they do sometimes change it.
02:00:07 * oerjan is supposedly lutheran protestant, anyway
02:00:13 * Gregor points cannon.
02:00:21 <Gregor> oerjan: I think you mean, CANNON law is eternal.
02:00:23 * Gregor agrees with kmc.
02:01:00 <SHACHAF> kmc: Why aren't you in #cslounge-trains?
02:01:06 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:cannon}
02:01:10 <oerjan> er
02:01:11 <oerjan> dammit
02:01:16 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:kanon}
02:01:24 <Gregor> Hah
02:03:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_organ contains no mention of "canon" or "law"
02:04:06 <Arc_Koen> is it common to demonstrate an esolang's Turing-completeness by writing a Turing machine?
02:04:33 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Look at the wiki you can see which ways are more common.
02:04:44 * oerjan shall assume zzo38 belongs to The Holy Catholic Communion of Righteous Canadian Pipe-Organ Appliers
02:05:36 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i have done it (e.g. some of the fragment proofs for Underload), but whether it's the simplest way depends a lot on the esolang
02:06:04 <Arc_Koen> hmmm wait I was thinking "write a turing-machine that interprets the language" but that doesn't prove anything
02:06:26 <oerjan> basically you want to choose something that has already been proved TC, and which is easy to interpret in your language
02:06:34 <Arc_Koen> yes
02:07:13 <oerjan> which can be turing machines, but other nice possibilities are lambda calculus, ski calculus, underload, bitwise cyclic tag...
02:07:14 <Arc_Koen> so when I said "by writing a Turing machine" and you answered you had done it you meant you have written an interpreter for a turing machine in a esolang?
02:08:18 <oerjan> what i actually did was make a general procedure for translating a turing machine into an underload program containing only ~:()^ commands (iirc)
02:08:39 <oerjan> oh, also minsky machines, which i needed to get rid of the ~.
02:09:28 <Arc_Koen> also I'm confused - I always thought that "being Turing-complete" was a formal way to describe what we'd thought of as "can do anything" but apparently you don't need input/output to be turing-complete, which is a bit weird since basically I am the kind of person who'd think that any programs that does not give a result is equivalent to the null program
02:09:47 <oerjan> for example for fueue underload was a very good fit, since it had very similar pieces even if they worked bizarrely differently
02:11:07 <coppro> Arc_Koen: nope
02:11:22 <coppro> Arc_Koen: Turing-completeness is usually defined by accept/reject
02:11:32 <coppro> well, Turing machines are
02:11:33 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we have this sort of "I/O-complete" or "brainfuck-complete" idea floating around in our community for when you want to consider I/O.
02:11:36 <Arc_Koen> (a program that does not give output would be like a machine inside a black box - it may be working hard and compute a lot of stuff, but from the outside it's no more than a black box)
02:11:52 <oerjan> coppro: i _do_ like to allow more than single-bit output if possible :P
02:12:06 <coppro> oerjan: but single bit is all that is strictly necessary from a computation perspective
02:12:55 <coppro> the two are almost exactly equivalent
02:13:16 <coppro> I think they are equivalent but I'm tired
02:13:22 <coppro> I do agree, I prefer programs that can do I/O
02:14:06 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing is that you need some notion of inital setup, and final result; these include _both_ the program itself and ordinary i/o, but apply to many more general systems that don't have i/o. e.g. pure lambda calculus has only a concept of reduction to something like a normal or weakly normal result which is still a lambda expression
02:15:06 <oerjan> so the initial setup is the lambda expression you start with, encoding what you want to compute, and the result is the reduced (weakly or strongly) normal form
02:15:31 <Arc_Koen> ok so you're considering the final state of the machine as the output?
02:15:37 <oerjan> yep
02:15:38 <Arc_Koen> that works for me
02:16:10 <oerjan> for a turing machine that's the usual way, also including the final tape if you want more than accept/reject
02:19:18 <oerjan> i recall the Bitwise Cyclic Tag page suggests you want to include all the deleted bits as output
02:19:46 <coppro> Arc_Koen: see the busy beaver function
02:20:03 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh also brainfuck is rather popular to interpret, for brainfuck derivatives that's often the simplest way of proving TC-ness
02:20:35 <kmc> you can also write a thing that compiles brainfuck to your language
02:20:40 <kmc> as long as you can prove the compiler always works
02:20:51 <oerjan> right, actually i meant compiling
02:21:34 <SHACHAF> Writing a compiler for a TC language *in* your language isn't sufficient, though. :-)
02:21:44 <kmc> sure
02:21:46 <oerjan> indeed not.
02:21:52 * kmc writes a C to C compiler in 'cat'
02:22:21 <oerjan> and it's not necessarily for the compiler to be written in your language either
02:22:27 <SHACHAF> kmc: Oh? What's the text of your cat program?
02:22:29 <oerjan> only to have it as target
02:22:32 <SHACHAF> I can only ever manage to write quines.
02:22:36 <kmc> :)
02:23:00 <oerjan> *necessary
02:23:09 <SHACHAF> Is Malbolge the best esolang?
02:23:22 <Arc_Koen> well thank you guys that was certainly enlightening
02:23:22 <oerjan> well it's not TC...
02:23:35 <Arc_Koen> good night
02:23:40 <oerjan> good night
02:23:43 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Well, neither is ISO C.
02:23:47 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Are you telling me you can build a time machine but you can't cook a cheese soufflé? You've got your priorities all wrong!).
02:24:11 <oerjan> SHACHAF: clearly Malbolge Unshackled is the best, then.
02:24:22 <kmc> malbolge shrugged
02:27:20 * oerjan is saying this mainly in the hope of some day finding someone willing to try programming it
02:27:54 <oerjan> a TC proof would be nice too, i guess.
02:30:48 <oerjan> i guess it might help _slightly_ if i actually updated it to compile in ghc
02:37:41 <oerjan> !c printf("Today's strip is brought to you by the number %lX.\n", 184594917);
02:37:43 <EgoBot> Today's strip is brought to you by the number B00B1E5.
02:37:48 <oerjan> ic.
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02:56:11 <kmc> #define HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI 0xB16B00B5
02:57:05 <SHACHAF> The hex constant chosen for HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI was offensive, update to use
02:57:06 <SHACHAF> the decimal equivalent instead.
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02:59:09 <oerjan> > 0xB16B00B5
02:59:10 <lambdabot> 2976579765
03:21:52 <SHACHAF> HI ION
03:22:46 <ion> I DON’T HAVE A CAPS LOCK. :-(
03:23:34 <SHACHAF> ion: /nick ION
03:23:41 <ion> IT’S NOT CAPS LOCK DAY YET.
03:27:43 <kmc> 192.168.1.NaN
03:28:01 <SHACHAF> Oh, floating point IPs!
03:28:02 <SHACHAF> That's perfect.
03:28:15 * SHACHAF wonders what the exponent would represent.
03:28:55 <ion> kmc: PHP?
03:29:38 <kmc> beats me
03:29:46 <kmc> got this on the admin interface of a wireless router
03:31:29 <kmc> brb
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03:46:29 <zzo38> Please help me with the RogueVM document
03:50:02 <zzo38> How easy would static analysis of 6502 machine codes in a .NSF file be?
03:50:19 <SHACHAF> That depends on what you want to analyze.
03:52:01 <zzo38> To figure out what RAM is used, to figure out bankswitching is used, and to decompile it and recompile it at a different address.
03:53:20 <zzo38> Some things are known not to be used.
03:56:23 <zzo38> Recompiling at a different address may not be needed if you can simply know which ROM/RAM is free, and what it uses to do bankswitching.
04:04:03 <SHACHAF> ion: splitlong just did it again!
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04:27:52 <zzo38> madbr: Are you someone making .NSF musics? (I fail to remember exactly)
04:28:12 <kmc> "Distance / ACK Timing: Sets the approximate maximum distance in meters from which clients can connect. May be useful in preventing distant "cantenna leeches" from connecting."
04:28:43 <pikhq> kmc: That seems likely to break.
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04:28:58 <zzo38> kmc: O, that is what it does? Can they set the power for distance?
04:29:15 <kmc> what do you mean?
04:29:29 <zzo38> I recall reading somewhere that they could not send an email message more than 500 miles away, due to speed of light and time limits set in the configuration.
04:29:35 <madbr> zzo38: yeah I do songs for famicompos
04:29:45 <madbr> using it to nsf converters
04:30:06 <zzo38> madbr: I have written a program to combine multiple .NSFs into one .NSF although there are some restrictions.
04:30:50 <zzo38> You can see my .NSFs at http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
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04:31:20 <zzo38> Please tell me if you like any of these musics?
04:31:38 <zzo38> Have you made any .NSF with multiple tracks or only one track?
04:31:52 <zzo38> What expansion chips have you used?
04:32:01 <zzo38> Have you used multiple expansions at once sometimes?
04:32:14 <madbr> gimme a sec, have to reinstall a nsf player winamp plugin :D
04:32:25 <madbr> I've done vrc6 and vrc7
04:32:43 <madbr> and "nsf with software mixer" :D
04:32:57 <madbr> (I didn't do the software mixer, just the song)
04:33:05 <zzo38> I have once tried to write a software synthesis in a .NSF file but I could not get it to work.
04:33:32 <zzo38> But what I have written and got to work is a ZZT music player .NSF file.
04:36:45 <madbr> I like wizardry.nsf
04:36:47 <madbr> :3
04:36:57 <madbr> might be better with drumsamples tho :D
04:38:30 <zzo38> Yes it might be; viewing 00README.txt it will tell you none of them use DPCM samples at all (yet); I may later make some including DPCM, or make new versions of existing ones too
04:38:37 <madbr> oh another trick, when you play the same note on two channels it's best to very slightly detune them :D
04:38:57 <zzo38> All .mml files are public domain you are free to modify if you wish.
04:39:14 <zzo38> madbr: OK, I may do that.
04:39:56 <madbr> layering is especially nice on the vrc7
04:40:18 <zzo38> What do you mean by layering?
04:40:20 <madbr> you can get like 3 layers going with detuning and one being played slightly late
04:40:35 <madbr> playing the same melody on multiple channels but with slight differences
04:40:45 <madbr> like two different instruments
04:40:52 <madbr> or detuned
04:40:54 <zzo38> OK, yes I can understand that.
04:41:00 <madbr> or one with vibrato and one without vibrato
04:41:36 <zzo38> OK, yes, that too.
04:42:25 <zzo38> I have not done those but I have done some similar things; you can see the .mml files to see exactly what is done, if you want to.
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04:46:18 <zzo38> Did you read the 00README.txt?
04:47:39 <madbr> I think you should try famitracker
04:48:25 <madbr> I don't use it but the other modshrine (virt, coda, chibitech, etc...) guys swear by it
04:48:27 <zzo38> I know Famitracker; my brother uses that. I happen to like PPMCK, and I have made a lot of improvements to PPMCK as well.
04:49:31 <zzo38> As far as I know, Famitracker can only use one expansion chip at once.
04:49:52 <madbr> you music doesn't have enough vibratos and volume slides and note cuts and bends etc :D
04:50:37 <madbr> you need a tool where doing these things is easy and you can hear what you're doing very fast so you can put effects all over the place
04:50:43 <zzo38> Yes it does not have a lot of those. But that is just because I did not put them in.
04:51:06 <madbr> you need a tool where putting them in is easy
04:51:19 <madbr> if your tool makes it hard you're never going to fill your song with them
04:52:04 <zzo38> If I am going to use them, I will add commands for those things more easily in PPMCK; although for now I can find entering the volume manually is easy enough.
04:53:47 <zzo38> If I need them I will add those features, of course. One feature I have added recently to PPMCK is the ability to enter DPCM samples inline (instead of loading from a file); I might use that. Features I have added a while ago include * and ? commands, and I now use those a lot.
04:58:07 <zzo38> Some people prefer MCK, some prefer Famitracker, and some other people like NerdTracker.
04:58:16 <kmc> mainly nerds
04:58:27 <madbr> I thought nerdtracker was really old
04:58:31 <madbr> and kinda buggy
04:58:46 <zzo38> Yes it is really old.
04:58:53 <zzo38> I don't know much about it.
04:59:05 <madbr> all I know is that when I tried it, it crashed :D
05:00:38 <madbr> you also gotta learn how to alternate long and short notes
05:01:42 <zzo38> In some musics I am writing more recently (not posted yet) I do use some crescendo, trill, and so on.
05:01:55 <madbr> nice
05:02:05 <madbr> more percussion?
05:03:02 <zzo38> Trills can easily be written using the EN command. I am not very good at percussion, although I have tried a bit and "internationale.nsf" is using percussion although the original I took it from had none (I made up the percussion myself), but still only noise and not DPCM.
05:03:32 <madbr> there's still lots of stuff that can be done to help noise :D
05:03:43 <madbr> like have unequal volume on hihat lines
05:04:09 <madbr> and have snares have a really short burst of low low frequency noise
05:04:25 <madbr> then switch the normal med~hi frequency for the tail
05:04:39 <madbr> maybe try to give it a nice volume envelope
05:05:09 <zzo38> I believe you; but like I said I am not very good at percussion. I understand chords and that stuff because I studied it, but not percussion.
05:06:46 <madbr> it's true that it's harder to get info for percussion
05:07:15 <madbr> I've analysed stuff like samba percussion and it's pretty complex :D
05:12:24 <zzo38> The music I have composed myself is "zzo38_1" and it has no percussion, but it does include chords and moment of silence, and a few other things. I wanted to include some minor chords too but I ended up including only major chords (although there is a V/V (applied dominant) chord in there).
05:12:50 <madbr> oh :o
05:13:07 <madbr> dunno I though it was major chords that were an aquired taste :D
05:13:23 <madbr> in my music minor dominated for like years and is probably still most common
05:13:45 <zzo38> I have included the chord numbers in the file; mostly to help me to write it but also if people want to look
05:14:00 <zzo38> madbr: Did you write music in a minor key, or in a major key, though?
05:14:08 <madbr> minor key
05:14:40 <madbr> I guess it's harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor, true :D
05:15:09 <zzo38> Chords in minor keys is more complicated.
05:15:27 <madbr> you think so? :D
05:15:37 <madbr> bass is easier to write tho
05:16:46 <zzo38> And yes it probably is harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor. In major key, minor chords are II, III, and VI (I wanted to use VI). In minor key, you can use the natural, melodic, or harmonic (usually harmonic, so that the major dominant chord is used), so you have more chords although that also makes it more complicated.
05:17:23 <madbr> gotta admit stuff like III isn't particularly useful
05:18:13 <madbr> yeah I always though the natural vs melodic minor stuff was overanalyzed
05:18:36 <madbr> you just pick the one that sounds the best for the particular thing you're writing on the spot
05:18:46 <zzo38> Yes that is one way to do it.
05:19:08 <madbr> it's kinda like picking which flavor of candy you want to eat :D
05:22:05 <zzo38> The books I studied use lowercase for minor and diminished chords, although I don't use that because it is difficult when hand-written. Some people just always use the uppercase and don't indicate major/minor. I use the uppercase, but when it is important to indicate major/minor/diminished I will write that too: + for major, - for major, x for augmented, o for diminished.
05:22:30 <madbr> I use "m" for minor
05:22:41 <zzo38> (In major keys it is rarely necessary to write that; but in minor keys it becomes more useful to write them)
05:22:47 <madbr> like I IIm7 V7b9
05:23:06 <madbr> essentially I use jazz chord notation together with roman numerals
05:23:09 <zzo38> madbr: When writing the letter name of the chord I will use m for minor, but when writing the number I will use - for minor.
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05:23:45 <zzo38> (I normally use the roman numerals when I am writing music, though.)
05:23:46 <madbr> yeah II-7 is also common in jazz notation
05:24:56 <zzo38> If the music is written in a major key I won't bother writing II-7 and will just write II7 since it is understood that it is minor. (If I do need to indicate it major, I can write II+ but often it will be V/V instead of II anyways.)
05:25:16 <madbr> yeah I don't use V/V
05:25:25 <madbr> because it's ambiguous with inversions
05:26:10 <madbr> like I V/VII I7/bVII IV/VI IVm/bVI I/V V7b9
05:27:45 <zzo38> Can't you just write V6 and so on for first inversions?
05:29:47 <madbr> but then it's confusing it with, well, V6
05:30:03 <madbr> (G B D E for G6)
05:32:04 <zzo38> The way I use the notation I won't mean that; when I write V6 I mean the V chord in first inversion. I will write it something else if I mean what you are doing such as calling the E a non-chord tone or something like that. At least, this is the way I do it. You can do it your way if it works better for you.
05:33:31 <madbr> I just take jazz notation and replace letters with roman numbers
05:33:40 <madbr> IMHO the most consistent notation
05:34:06 <zzo38> Well OK. I am using the classical notation since that is what I have studied.
05:34:30 <zzo38> Of course jazz notation works too, and so does jazz ntoation with roman numbers.
05:35:17 <madbr> I don't like how classical notation is inconsistent with sharps and flats
05:35:23 <madbr> like how they depend on your key
05:35:29 <zzo38> (Although I do not think jazz notation with roman numbers is common; do you know if anyone other than you uses it?)
05:35:41 <madbr> mark levine
05:35:46 <madbr> jazz theory book
05:37:10 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I know. I generally don't find it necessary to write the sharps and flats in the chord notation, though. Things other than the chords themself can be written with non-chord tones, and may be circled for reminder (sometimes it is also written what kind of non-chord tone, such as in analysis; I don't find this necessary).
05:37:59 <madbr> Ok how do you write Valt7 in classical notation
05:38:29 <zzo38> I don't know what that means; I don't know jazz notation very well.
05:38:30 <madbr> In, say, Bb minor
05:38:44 <madbr> alt7 is a 7th chord with a bunch of alterations
05:39:04 <zzo38> I think I found it on Wikipedia. Let me look what it means.
05:39:33 <madbr> theoretically b9, #9, #11, #5
05:40:30 <madbr> Irl it's usually played as 7#5#9
05:41:17 <kmc> F♯ A♯ ∞
05:41:31 <madbr> So Falt7 is something like A, Db, Eb, Ab in the keyboardist's left hand while the bass plays F
05:41:56 <zzo38> OK.
05:43:17 <SHACHAF> kmc: lexande_ has all the train answers.
05:43:23 <kmc> regarding?
05:43:56 <SHACHAF> Trains.
05:44:05 <zzo38> It seems that "altered chord" in jazz could mean more than one kind of chord, according to the Wikipedia article.
05:44:31 <kmc> specifically?
05:45:08 <madbr> zzo: irl the classification is something like
05:45:17 <zzo38> I have never thought of writing such altered chords, but if I do I would probably just indicate that it is being altered and write the alterations on the notes rather than the chord notations.
05:45:22 <madbr> "does it have a #9?"
05:45:36 <madbr> (ie a major third and minor third at the same time)
05:46:01 <madbr> if yes -> does it have a normal 5th or a normal 6th?
05:46:15 <madbr> if it does, then it's a 7#9 or a 7b9
05:46:33 <madbr> if it has a #5 (aka b13 aka b6) then it's an alt7
05:47:53 <zzo38> OK.
05:50:00 <madbr> in jazz chords are often classified by which scale you play over them... alt7 is played over the so called "super-locrian" scale (C Db Eb E F# Ab Bb)
05:51:13 <zzo38> OK.
05:58:02 <madbr> so yeah that's the reason I like jazz notation... you can write classical chords in jazz notation easily, but not vice-versa
05:58:32 <zzo38> Well, OK; that is good for you then.
06:00:27 <zzo38> I have also invented cadence symbols (books I have seen just write out the words) (I have once suggested this to someone to forward my suggestion to the Royal Conservatory): P for perfect, P with a slash through it for imperfect, PL for plagal, D for deceptive. Circled for closed, a half-circle around for semi-closed, and no circle for open. (What I am calling "perfect" here is sometimes called an "authentic" cadence, but I learned "perfect")
06:01:58 <madbr> I can't remember what semi-closed was
06:04:13 <zzo38> Semi-closed means one or both chords are not in the root position or the second chord does not have the tonic in the soprano.
06:05:06 <madbr> I thought that was imperfect :o
06:06:06 <zzo38> That is also called imperfect; there are two different terminologies for cadences.
06:06:43 <madbr> yeah
06:06:47 <zzo38> (I don't know why this is, but it is.)
06:08:11 <madbr> I think I didn't use closed cadences at all when I was younger but now I do :D
06:10:30 <zzo38> I have written some music which I did not put into the computer because it is too short.
06:14:43 <madbr> yeah that's why I use a tracker
06:14:51 <madbr> so that I can write music on the computer :D
06:15:47 <zzo38> My music "zzo38_1" was written directly on the computer, though. I did not use paper for that one.
06:16:02 <zzo38> (That is why the chord symbols are included in the comments.)
06:17:44 <zzo38> I have also written some music in the QBASIC PLAY command, without using paper or anything else. This is not polyphonic, though. But I have done so both using the built-in PLAY command for standard music, and my own PlayBP subroutine for Bohlen-Pierce.
06:19:13 <madbr> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/the_tomato_soup_case.mp3 <- this only has open cadences I think
06:19:25 <madbr> zzo: ho god bohlen-pierce
06:19:59 <madbr> you need to use tools with a faster feedback loop
06:20:43 <madbr> irl keyboard, midi sequencer, tracker, anything
06:23:18 <itidus21> i have no clue when it comes to composing music
06:23:42 <madbr> it's a learned skill :D
06:24:02 <itidus21> oh dear god no
06:24:04 <zzo38> I find it easier to just write out the music first and then make corrections later. I do have an electric piano but I don't usually use it to write music. My father *only* writes music by playing it on the piano.
06:24:56 <madbr> zzo: what, you sing notes to yourself first until you have a melody that you like, then write it down?
06:24:59 <zzo38> Some composers were deaf and could still write music.
06:25:39 <madbr> zzo: yeah the classic beethoven thing but those are special cases
06:25:50 <zzo38> madbr: Generally I just think about it rather than singing it out loud, but generally yes. Sometimes I will write the chords first though, and sometimes a combination of the melody and chords.
06:26:27 <zzo38> And then I will play it on the piano or computer, and if it is no good I will adjust it.
06:27:24 <itidus21> zzo38: do you know about koji kondo and nobuo uematsu?
06:27:41 <zzo38> I know some things about them.
06:27:45 <itidus21> yay!
06:28:17 <madbr> dude do you know about mitsuda yasunori, the chrono trigger dude? :D
06:28:23 <itidus21> i don't.
06:28:37 <zzo38> I don't know.
06:28:56 <itidus21> i recently got chrono trigger for my hacked ds though
06:29:11 <itidus21> that will probably be a positive experience when i eventually
06:29:34 <zzo38> When adding the percussion to the Internationale, I just added it based on seeing (not hearing) the dissonance in the music and writing percussion based on that. I don't know if that is the correct way or whatever to do percussion, but it sounded OK to me and to my brother.
06:30:35 <zzo38> This is how I do music. I don't do it live like many people do; I prefer the old way.
06:30:58 <itidus21> old ways are probably the best
06:31:16 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, to me it is anyways; other people may prefer other ways.
06:31:28 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { unsigned buf[12], i; for (i = 0; i < 3; i++) { asm("cpuid" : "=a"(buf[4*i]), "=b"(buf[4*i+1]), "=c"(buf[4*i+2]), "=d"(buf[4*i+3]) : "a"(0x80000002u+i)); } puts((char*)buf); }
06:31:33 <HackEgo> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128
06:31:40 <itidus21> i always like to be bitter and cynical about ways of game design (while indefinitly procrastinating doing it myself)
06:31:40 <fizzie> The truth is revealed!
06:31:47 <fizzie> (Maybe it wasn't such a secret.)
06:32:02 <madbr> the usual way of composing for percussion is something like telling the drummer "I want a bossa beat"
06:32:04 <madbr> the end
06:32:05 <madbr> :D
06:32:40 <madbr> zzo: it could have the kind of military marching snare beat thing
06:32:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i got a legitimate version of warioware diy. that has a feature to compose music.
06:33:00 <itidus21> but only a few seconds worth i think
06:33:41 <zzo38> madbr: Perhaps that is how they do it. But like I said I don't know much about percussion so I just did it by dissonance. (You can see and/or hear the percussion I have used if you want to.)
06:33:58 <itidus21> .....
06:34:12 <itidus21> i knew when i was a child that nintendo was a seriously big deal
06:34:37 <itidus21> 20 years later, nothing has changed
06:34:58 <zzo38> I don't even know very well whether a bossa beat or this beat or that beat is better.
06:35:15 <zzo38> (Well, it is not only by dissonance that I did it by; I did it by rhythm and dissonance.)
06:35:33 <madbr> zzo: usually it works by style
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06:35:55 <madbr> swing jazz gets swing beat, bossa gets bossa beat
06:36:18 <fizzie> What gets the "fat beat" I've been hearing about? Fat musicians?
06:36:43 <madbr> metal gets the drummer pounding the kick with his double pedal like it's a pinata :D
06:38:05 <itidus21> hmm
06:39:26 <itidus21> i think if i was living alone, i would use the freedom to build instruments out of odds and ends
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06:40:09 <madbr> fusion jazz gets this complex break-beaty bossa-nova-ish swing-ish im-more-intelligent-than-you drumming :D
06:40:10 <zzo38> I suppose it is sort of like what I have done with rhythm, so it may be march or waltz time or whatever, although I have also done by dissonance.
06:40:10 <itidus21> but living with family, it becomes inappropriate to do such things
06:40:36 <madbr> march time?
06:40:39 <zzo38> Probably you (and/or other people) can do percussion better than I do; I am not very good at percussion.
06:40:50 <itidus21> zzo38: every object can make music
06:41:04 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes and I have sometimes done so as well.
06:41:05 <madbr> zzo: you need a tool where it's easy
06:41:22 <madbr> like proper DPCM support or something :D
06:41:36 <madbr> and a couple of nice kick and snare samples that hit hard :D
06:41:51 <itidus21> i suppose that when making instruments the goal is to provide a finite set of sounds the instrument can make, which can be composed together
06:41:52 <zzo38> I don't have DPCM samples so I used noise instead.
06:42:26 <zzo38> (Actually I do have the ZZT DPCM samples. But they may not be that good of quality compared with proper drums.)
06:42:41 <madbr> itidus: every object can make music but not every object can play in equal temperament over 2 octaves with multiple different nuances :D
06:43:08 <madbr> zzo: my favourite source is old MODs
06:43:32 <madbr> sometimes they have killer bass and drum samples
06:43:37 <itidus21> madbr: my rants of always stating the obvious
06:43:39 <zzo38> madbr: Well I do have some of those, so I can look and convert to DPCM and see if it is good.
06:43:39 <madbr> especially snares
06:44:09 <madbr> the awesome ones that sounds like an explosion every 2 beats :D
06:44:16 <itidus21> so
06:44:33 <zzo38> But I don't know much about drums so I don't know what kind of drums to use, whether I had a drum kit or not.
06:44:40 <madbr> kick
06:44:42 <madbr> snare
06:44:45 <madbr> hihat
06:44:48 <madbr> that is the bass
06:45:04 <madbr> hihat needs lots of high frequencies tho so it doesn't work well on DPCM
06:45:10 <itidus21> if you wanted to make an arcade game, is microswitches and joysticks good, or is it just traditional?
06:45:13 <madbr> but it's easy to do with noise tho
06:45:32 <zzo38> OK, but I think I will go to bed now because it is late, but thanks for information.
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06:45:45 <madbr> iti: eh?
06:45:54 <itidus21> i suppose that its made for resilence
06:46:17 <madbr> not my domain of competence :D
06:46:24 <madbr> I'm a keyboard nut tbh
06:46:32 <itidus21> arcade machine peripherals designed to take heavy damage :D
06:46:41 <itidus21> designed for use by jocks
06:49:03 <madbr> right
06:49:12 <fizzie> I have a TAC-2 in a box somewhere; it's a Totally Accurate Controller. (Sort of irrelevant, because it doesn't have microswitches; it has a ball.)
06:49:36 <itidus21> madbr: my train of thought was, what would PC be like in arcade? how would it differ from internet cafe? oh crap it won't differ from internet cafe
06:51:53 <madbr> I think they have some specific industrial strength components
06:51:59 <madbr> to deal with dust
06:52:02 <madbr> and being always on
06:52:19 <madbr> I think that's also why they used roms for the longest time rather than disks
06:54:43 <pikhq> Magnetic disks, especially floppies, were really quite fragile, yeah...
06:54:56 <pikhq> And ROMs still worrk.
06:55:07 <pikhq> Mask ROMs probably will for centuries.
07:11:04 <itidus21> but still i suspect theres room for innovation in arcade game interfaces
07:14:59 <itidus21> i can think of a few inventions which would be absurd. a digital billiard table, where the entire table is a graphical display and some kind of sensors detect what the queue is doing
07:16:03 <itidus21> such a system would have the advantage of allowing AI opponents
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07:32:40 <madbr> I dunno
07:33:00 <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
07:34:06 <itidus21> indeed.
07:34:49 <itidus21> and i believe that a humble ball provides more accurate physics than what a super computer can muster
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07:50:36 <atriq> @messages?
07:50:36 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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10:23:47 <atriq> I wonder if there's anyone alive who met Eddie Morton
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11:20:30 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 77 seconds.
11:20:36 <ais523> it's going to be one of /those/ days again, isn't it?
11:25:08 <ais523> SHACHAF: also, that was really difficult to do in this client, I had to copy-paste a literal control-A
11:25:37 <SHACHAF> ais523: whoa, dude, that's weird.
11:25:42 <SHACHAF> 04:24 CTCP hi reply from ais523:
11:25:47 <SHACHAF> I've never gotten one of those before.
11:25:53 <SHACHAF> Usually it's a fancy NOTICE thing.
11:25:55 <ais523> SHACHAF: it was awkward to send in this client
11:26:04 <ais523> let me try giving it an argument
11:26:18 <ais523> did that work?
11:26:30 <fizzie> That's a big SHACHAF there.
11:26:49 <SHACHAF> fizzie: / /nick FIZZIE
11:26:54 <SHACHAF> Er.
11:26:56 <SHACHAF> Ignore the /
11:27:02 <SHACHAF> ais523: /nick AIS523
11:27:43 <fizzie> Don't wanna. :(
11:28:01 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-WHOADUDE IT STILL LOOKS WEIRD, MAN request from SHACHAF.
11:28:16 * ais523 decides not to send a reply
11:28:58 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 1,346,671,725 seconds.
11:29:10 <ais523> that's because I sent myself a ping backdated to the epoch
11:29:11 <SHACHAF> That's a lot of seconds.
11:29:12 <ais523> rather than connection trouble
11:29:18 <SHACHAF> @google 1,346,671,725 seconds
11:29:19 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
11:29:28 <SHACHAF> I guess it'll be about 42 years.
11:30:36 <ais523> 42 years 9 months 3 days and around 12 hours
11:30:40 <ais523> depending on how this works with timezones
11:33:36 <fizzie> The PING argument isn't specified, so sometimes with two different clients connected to a bouncer you get rather funky PING replies as seen from the client that didn't send the request.
11:34:05 <fizzie> Some send seconds since epoch, some milliseconds since epoch, some seconds + space + micro/nanoseconds.
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12:10:59 <atriq> Rereading some Freefall: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2100/fc02009.htm
12:11:33 <atriq> Then a while later: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02227.htm
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13:02:57 <atriq> asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f
13:03:45 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` 0.5
13:03:46 <lambdabot> forall t. (Fractional t) => t -> t
13:05:16 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` pi
13:05:17 <lambdabot> forall t. (Floating t) => t -> t
13:05:28 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` ceiling 2
13:05:29 <lambdabot> forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t
13:05:55 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` (snd . properFraction) 2
13:05:56 <lambdabot> forall b. (RealFrac b) => b -> b
13:06:12 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` significand 2
13:06:13 <lambdabot> forall t. (RealFloat t) => t -> t
13:06:49 <atriq> :t (1 +)
13:06:50 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => t -> t
13:07:49 <atriq> I can't think of a way to get a Real constraint using this method
13:08:40 <atriq> > scaleFloat 2 3
13:08:41 <lambdabot> 12.0
13:08:49 <atriq> > scaleFloat 8 1
13:08:50 <lambdabot> 256.0
13:09:22 <atriq> > map (`scaleFloat` 1) [1..10]
13:09:23 <lambdabot> [2.0,4.0,8.0,16.0,32.0,64.0,128.0,256.0,512.0,1024.0]
13:12:33 <atriq> > let q = id in (id 1, id 'a')
13:12:34 <lambdabot> (1,'a')
13:12:58 <atriq> > let q = id in (q 1, q 'a')
13:12:59 <lambdabot> (1,'a')
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13:48:11 <atriq> Aaargh
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15:04:37 <atriq> Wow
15:05:01 <atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:05:09 <atriq> What could this mean?
15:05:16 <atriq> Wait, not 6.
15:05:17 <atriq> 7.
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15:14:17 <fizzie> atriq: Your new favourite webcomic will be started when you turn 28, unless you already are.
15:14:40 <nortti> fizzie: what webcomic?
15:15:27 <fizzie> nortti: 18:05 < atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:15:40 <fizzie> (The 6 was later fixed to be 7.)
15:15:44 <atriq> Homestuck and IWC
15:15:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
15:16:00 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:16:01 <fizzie> > iterate (*2) 7 -- your new favourite webcomic start ages
15:16:02 <lambdabot> [7,14,28,56,112,224,448,896,1792,3584,7168,14336,28672,57344,114688,229376,...
15:16:08 <atriq> I turn 28 in 10 years 2 months today
15:16:26 <fizzie> Hopefully you'll live to see the one that starts when you turn 229376, I hear it's quite a good one.
15:16:47 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2890?
15:16:55 <AnotherTest> who will tell
15:17:05 <fizzie> I suppose they'll be some kind of direct neural-fed qualiomics, but anyway.
15:17:09 <AnotherTest> a time traveler, perhaps..
15:17:27 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2050, for that matter
15:17:51 <Arc_Koen> nah, in 2050 the internet will be about to disappear
15:17:57 <Arc_Koen> just like the minitel has
15:18:49 <atriq> Wow
15:18:54 <AnotherTest> Maybe it returns in 2890
15:19:04 <atriq> It's conceivable that IWC has readers younger than it.
15:19:34 <atriq> Is it bad I use GHCi as a calculator?
15:20:57 <AnotherTest> why not?
15:21:23 <atriq> Because it has 3 different exponentiation functions by defualt!
15:21:31 <atriq> :t ((^),(^^),(**))
15:21:32 <lambdabot> forall a b a1 b1 a2. (Num a, Integral b, Fractional a1, Integral b1, Floating a2) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1, a2 -> a2 -> a2)
15:22:03 <AnotherTest> If you do not find that is a problem, then it doesn't matter
15:22:07 <AnotherTest> it's probably a feature
15:22:08 <AnotherTest> not a problem
15:22:13 <atriq> It is a feature
15:22:20 <atriq> They represent slightly different things
15:22:46 <Arc_Koen> the word "feature" means "intentional problem", does it not?
15:23:05 <atriq> (^) is raising to a non-negative integer, (^^) to any integer, (**) to any real (ish)
15:23:07 <atriq> @info Floating
15:23:07 <lambdabot> Floating
15:23:15 <atriq> Thank you, lambdabot
15:23:19 <atriq> @info Applicative
15:23:19 <lambdabot> Applicative
15:23:19 <copumpkin> :t [(^), (^^), (**)]
15:23:21 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a, Integral a) => [a -> a -> a]
15:23:36 <copumpkin> yay unification
15:24:06 <AnotherTest> Why didn't they just overload one of these operators?
15:24:17 <atriq> Haskell isn't like that
15:24:24 <AnotherTest> oh.
15:24:46 <atriq> :t toInteger pi
15:24:47 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:24:47 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:24:47 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:0-11
15:25:28 <atriq> :t (pi, toInteger pi)
15:25:29 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:29 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:25:29 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:5-16
15:25:37 <atriq> :t let x = pi in (x, toInteger x)
15:25:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:39 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:25:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:18-28
15:25:42 <AnotherTest> hm.
15:25:50 <AnotherTest> that doesn't look nice
15:25:50 <atriq> Point is, it's impossible
15:26:00 <atriq> For something to be both Floating and Integral
15:26:12 <AnotherTest> so overloading doesn't exist?
15:26:30 <AnotherTest> well
15:26:37 <AnotherTest> I know there is something called overloading
15:26:38 <atriq> No, it uses a kind of polymorphism
15:26:50 <AnotherTest> which is for 1 function
15:27:06 <AnotherTest> or wait that was called polymorphism
15:27:19 <AnotherTest> I should use run-time dispatch now
15:27:26 <AnotherTest> for OO-languages
15:27:36 <AnotherTest> *imperative OO languages
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15:29:35 <kmc> i bet jerkcity has readers younger than it
15:29:43 <kmc> it would appeal to 14 year olds
15:32:12 <kmc> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole
15:33:53 <AnotherTest> Gutenberg actually only improved typography
15:34:04 <AnotherTest> Koreans could print stuff earlier
15:34:46 <AnotherTest> He was important though
15:35:12 <AnotherTest> I think he replaced the wooden shapes for the characters with iron shapes
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15:38:19 <kmc> "The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty;[1] following that, the first metal movable-type system for printing was made in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230)."
15:38:32 <AnotherTest> I thought Korea
15:38:39 <AnotherTest> I'm actually pretty sure it was Korea
15:38:57 <AnotherTest> (that had the actual first thing to print)
15:38:57 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11242004
15:39:02 <kmc> hacked by chinese
15:39:20 <AnotherTest> But I guess I learned it wrong then
15:41:47 <kmc> 'The Chinese government should definitely maintain hacked.gov.cn and provide little validation badges like that "TRUSTe" thing so you can confirm that a site really has been hacked by Chinese.'
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18:59:25 <zzo38> Do you know what IRC channel(s) they would know better of the stuff I am asking for RogueVM?
19:04:07 <nortti> "C++ suffers from problems causing reasonable-looking sentences to cause listeners to snap and try to kill you"
19:04:11 <nortti> "As my friend Jacob Gabrielson once put it, advocating Object-Oriented Programming is like advocating Pants-Oriented Clothing."
19:04:33 <zzo38> Is that how it works?
19:05:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:06:43 <zzo38> Object oriented programming can sometimes be useful for some things. I do not believe it is best for all things.
19:08:58 <itidus21> i think one problem is it's easier to think about objects than it is to think about computation
19:09:27 <zzo38> I do not think it is always easier.
19:10:03 <itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names
19:10:41 <zzo38> But that doesn't necessarily make it easier or more sensible. Sometimes the name will be no good.
19:10:43 <itidus21> but, like, understanding oop alone won't enable you to write an OS
19:10:57 <nortti> 22:10 < itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names // and now I'm going to try to find why that message was hilighted
19:12:02 <nortti> oh. hilight for foo
19:12:20 <itidus21> haha...
19:13:13 <itidus21> here is my Scheduler class, it is a member of my OS , all i have to do is fill in the members and i will be all set
19:13:31 <itidus21> better throw in a GUI class
19:15:07 <itidus21> no tidus, you should use design patterns. or else you're doing it wrong >:)
19:16:27 <itidus21> but i just want to fill in the members.. i don't have time to study patterns
19:16:46 <itidus21> "we all hate you!!!"
19:18:06 <itidus21> *phew*
19:20:35 <itidus21> zzo38: but whether the name is good or not is subjective, which gives the fools ground for argument
19:21:59 <kmc> itidus21: did you ever write a scheduler
19:22:00 <kmc> or an os
19:22:01 <kmc> or any code
19:22:53 <itidus21> i'm arguing why oop may get a bad name, using myself as an exhibit
19:23:32 <itidus21> i didn't write a scheduler.. even the theory of them was probably too steep for me
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19:24:11 <kmc> you don't need much theory to write a simple scheduler
19:24:50 <pikhq> Naive schedulers are pretty simple.
19:25:19 <pikhq> Process scheduling? Circular linked list of processes.
19:25:46 <itidus21> kmc: my ability at coding is just a reflection of my life in general
19:25:51 <pikhq> It won't be ideal, but it's functional and really simple.
19:27:12 <pikhq> In general, you only need theory to do the clever bits of things. Just thwacking out something that works is mostly just a matter of effort.
19:27:39 <pikhq> (note: sans theory, you are going to be writing *really inefficient code* in certain cases. But it'll function.)
19:28:15 <itidus21> for what i think you mean by did i write any code, i didn't
19:29:04 <kmc> there are some problems you can't solve at all without some theory
19:29:13 <kmc> i don't think you can write a 3D renderer without understanding a little bit about 3D geometry
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19:32:18 <itidus21> i am quite an unhappy person overall. maybe some people accept what they can't change. in my case, what i can't change leaves me feeling trapped or whatever
19:32:36 <itidus21> some people, i guess they don't feel there is anything they can't change except death and taxes
19:32:57 <oerjan> ...this channel is not big enough for both itidus21 and me in the mood i'm in.
19:32:57 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:33:00 <oerjan> @messages
19:33:01 <lambdabot> AnotherTest asked 3h 48m 23s ago: Isn't '.' right after '+' in the ASCII table?
19:33:19 <itidus21> oerjan: but im learning im delusional!
19:33:27 <oerjan> > ord <$> "+."
19:33:28 <itidus21> its a wonderful idea
19:33:28 <lambdabot> [43,46]
19:33:54 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest No. + = 43, . = 46
19:33:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:34:18 <itidus21> its like thinking you are living in a warzone and then learning that it's actually just a construction yard outside making all the noise
19:34:46 <itidus21> that is the feeling of recognizing momentarily that one is infact deluded
19:34:46 <oerjan> itidus21: when you say you are learning you are delusional, do you mean that your shrink is telling you that?
19:35:18 <itidus21> no, but if i may give you an example
19:35:42 <itidus21> i once thought someone who i was chatting to on the internet was in my backyard with a gun
19:35:55 <oerjan> ok i guess that's delusional.
19:36:10 <itidus21> but this was because i used to hear rodents or possums on the roof, and thought it was someone climbing around up there
19:36:20 <itidus21> i figured since my house is next to a park a hobo was sleeping on my roof
19:36:32 <kmc> itidus21: maybe you would feel better about yourself if you spent your time talking about something you do understand
19:36:48 <kmc> rather than saying wrong things about programming and then telling everyone how you're wrong
19:36:49 <oerjan> are you sure you are australian and not this guy i use to talk with in real life...
19:37:00 <itidus21> ping me
19:37:09 <itidus21> @time
19:37:10 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Tue Sep 04 05:36:56
19:37:20 <itidus21> sure i could have changed my time to lie
19:37:22 <kmc> then again maybe you do actually understand programming and are just depressed or something
19:37:23 <oerjan> (that was a joke, he would never be able to pretend to be you)
19:37:48 <oerjan> he wouldn't even be able to find this channel without my help
19:39:22 <itidus21> kmc: i understand the basics.... i can do small simple problems given enough time.. but once it gets into topics like math or unix , i have absolutely no clue
19:40:14 <oerjan> so i attract delusional people, presumably a plot by the universe to make me realize i'm delusional...
19:40:46 <itidus21> as for functional stuff, i suppose that what happens is i have been not actually trying to do it, but searching for elusive meanings to it, like some grand idea
19:41:05 <oerjan> i also attract people who are willing to tell me i am, and thereby make me stop trusting them when i actually thought i needed their help. :(
19:42:06 <itidus21> and i am also fiercely in denial about not being a genius
19:43:14 <oerjan> itidus21: well chances are, merely from being on this channel, that you are smart enough to convince 50% of everybody you are a genius.
19:43:47 <itidus21> yeah.. i can throw words around pretty well!
19:44:01 <itidus21> i have absorbed a lot of vocabulary at the least!
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19:44:28 <nortti> throw Word
19:45:12 <itidus21> hmm
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19:45:21 <zzo38> There is no great genius without some touch of madness.
19:45:22 <nortti> (throw 'word)
19:45:27 <oerjan> damn housemate, don't ramp up the music volume
19:46:01 <itidus21> kmc: you really don't want to see the sort of "code" i produced in the past when trying to make a game..
19:46:15 <itidus21> i don't know why it's so bad
19:46:20 <zzo38> Well, I do want to see.
19:46:24 <itidus21> maybe because i avoided getting feedback on it
19:46:38 <itidus21> and just learned like a wolf in the wild
19:46:41 <oerjan> itidus21: maybe you are doing cargo cult programming...
19:46:58 <itidus21> lol
19:47:01 <oerjan> trying to make something which _looks_ like programming, without knowing what it actually is
19:49:00 <oerjan> darn maybe i'm doing cargo cult living
19:49:29 <itidus21> zzo38: i'm not sure what the best way to show code is
19:49:43 <kmc> oerjan: fake it 'till you make it
19:50:08 <itidus21> maybe if i just post a random ugly chunk of code on pastebin
19:50:29 <zzo38> No, sprunge is better.
19:50:48 <itidus21> i use winxp... i don't know that kind of thing
19:51:06 <zzo38> (In addition, doing so, you won't show anyone who doesn't want to see because posts to sprunge are not listed in public)
19:51:42 <oerjan> kmc: the trouble is i don't really want to live in the way everybody keeps advising me to do, _nor_ am i smart enough in that aspect to find my own way
19:52:05 <kmc> and which way do they advise you?
19:52:30 <itidus21> zzo38: well.. maybe another day!
19:53:18 <oerjan> kmc: as close to "normal" as possible.
19:53:25 <kmc> yeah but which aspects of "normal"
19:53:52 <oerjan> sorry, too painful to discuss
19:53:55 <kmc> ok
19:53:57 <kmc> good luck
19:54:09 <zzo38> 2999 Funny Things To Do To Your Opponent's Computer:
19:54:14 <zzo38> # Remove the plug and replace it with a fake plug. When they ask you what's wrong with their computer, tell them this: "I was trying to fix your computer for you, so I opened it up and looked inside, and a lot of the wires inside weren't connected, so I connected all of them, and then I turned it on, it was all smoke..." When they go to the store to fix it, they will realize that the computer is working fine, it is just the wrong plug.
19:54:22 <zzo38> # Make a program that keeps changing the system time to a random time every five minutes.
19:54:30 <zzo38> # Change icons to point to different programs than what they actually say.
19:54:39 <nortti> :P
19:54:49 <zzo38> # Alter the spell-checker so that none of the words are real words anymore.
19:54:53 <nortti> I did that with our school computers
19:55:05 <kmc> one time i hex edited the school computers so the Start button said "Strat"
19:55:10 <nortti> (switched paint and word)
19:55:11 <zzo38> # Put 0a program on their comp0uter that types0 zeros0 at r0andom times, and/0or0 displays r0andom error00 messa0ges at0 random 0times0.
19:55:22 <zzo38> # Steal the ball from their mouse and play pinball with it. Tell them it is a pinball.
19:55:29 <nortti> :D
19:55:37 <zzo38> # Get a screenshot of their normal desktop and then replace the background picture with it.
19:55:49 <nortti> done that
19:55:55 <kmc> # Open up the case and rub your dick all over the inside
19:56:20 <zzo38> # Put the monitor upsidedown and put a sensor in it so that if it is turned right side up then the picture is still upsidedown.
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19:56:33 <nortti> :D
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19:56:47 <nortti> zzo38: where did you find those?
19:57:07 <zzo38> I wrote most of them by myself; others were from other people I forget who.
19:57:14 <nortti> ok
19:57:15 <zzo38> (I also forget which ones)
19:57:51 <zzo38> # If there is more than one computer in the room, switch the keyboard inputs.
19:58:00 <nortti> is the list available somewhere?
19:58:04 <nortti> done that
19:58:11 <zzo38> They are in my FORTUNE file.
19:58:27 <nortti> ok
19:59:37 <itidus21> kmc: well one thing is that i have always thought about computers as having an associated display
20:00:46 <itidus21> my conception there may be slightly wonky. like i do realize that theres other forms of I/O but i'm fixated on the monitor
20:01:54 <itidus21> like, when learning about computers at some age or other i was pretty much dismissing anything which wasn't part of a video game playing system
20:01:57 <FireFly> # Install sysinternals' BSoD screensaver and turn off the "mouse movement closes screen saver" option
20:02:18 <nortti> hahaha
20:03:48 <nortti> zzo38: I can't find you fortune file on your gopher site. is it there somewhere?
20:04:09 <itidus21> also i tend to rely quite heavily on existing software...
20:04:31 <itidus21> and if i can't download the software to solve some task, i see that as being equivalent to not being able to do the task
20:04:40 <zzo38> Currently the file is not available; you can only request one entry at random.
20:04:47 <zzo38> (I may change that later)
20:04:51 <itidus21> most of the time
20:04:52 <FireFly> :(
20:06:25 <itidus21> oerjan: in reality i suppose i gotta say im the happiest overall i've ever been
20:06:40 <oerjan> good, good
20:06:44 <itidus21> but, in the past, i got higher highs, and lower lows
20:06:47 <itidus21> i miss the higher highs
20:08:08 <itidus21> i think that one trouble i had was bumping into the wrong crowd online
20:08:58 <itidus21> theres no question that these were seriously fucked up people
20:09:40 <itidus21> somehow that chatroom pushed me over the edge
20:10:02 <itidus21> a sort of insanity that i haven't been able to shake
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20:12:53 <oerjan> `addquote <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:01 <kmc> hehehe balls
20:13:04 <HackEgo> 859) <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:19 <oerjan> i guess that won't survive but hey
20:13:40 <itidus21> i mustn't dwell on it though
20:14:27 <oerjan> i keep pondering whether to visit the dalnet #esoteric
20:14:51 <itidus21> no
20:14:52 <itidus21> don't
20:15:02 <itidus21> :P
20:15:32 <nortti-> why?
20:15:52 <nortti-> start talkng about esolangs there
20:16:12 <itidus21> well, its not as if they actually know anything
20:16:28 <itidus21> having said this i havent actually been to such places
20:16:55 <oerjan> itidus21: i thought that was the kind of place you were referring to, which is why i mentioned it
20:17:17 <oerjan> something vaguely recalled about buddhism
20:17:27 <itidus21> ya, the yahoo buddhism chatroom
20:17:48 <itidus21> they're just not right in their heads
20:18:23 <itidus21> ok, ill put it this way
20:18:46 <itidus21> the only danger of any such chatrooms or such is psychological manipulation
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20:24:29 <nortti-> at #esoteric@dalnet there are only 3 people (including me) and no ops
20:26:04 <oerjan> darn
20:26:18 <itidus21> i am not meaning that esoterica is bad, but it is surely wild and volatile
20:26:36 <oerjan> i guess my chances of finding the secrets to the universe there are essentially non-existent, then.
20:27:29 <itidus21> its kind of like the way that harley riders have some perception of being in gangs
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20:32:24 <nortti-> (killuminati) how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsiepop
20:32:38 <nortti-> (killuminati) please, serious esoteric answers only
20:32:47 <nortti-> @#esoteric
20:32:47 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
20:33:51 <oerjan> that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:34:13 <itidus21> so.. there you can see he has swapped the word questions with answers
20:35:02 <itidus21> i assume
20:35:22 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:35:32 <nortti-> (killuminati) okay stop trolling
20:38:14 <oerjan> but only angels have the patience not to bite into it!
20:38:34 <oerjan> using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
20:40:29 <itidus21> i didn't mean any offence to zzo, or anyone, when being negative about esoterica
20:41:15 <oerjan> zzo cares about esoterica?
20:41:26 <itidus21> i don't know :-D
20:41:44 <itidus21> when i saw him quit i worried if it was something i said
20:42:03 <itidus21> but i think people often worry if it was something they said when someone quits after you say something
20:42:26 <oerjan> OKAY
20:42:32 <itidus21> eep
20:43:43 <itidus21> i don't know
20:43:59 <kmc> so what is the yahoo buddhism chatroom like
20:44:09 <kmc> is it full of, like, westerners who call themselves "buddhist" but know nothing about buddhism
20:44:13 <oerjan> zzo managed to get all into the astrolog program purely (afaik) for the astronomical calculation possibilities
20:45:20 <itidus21> ok, i think someone joked about when "they" finally wake him up
20:45:43 <oerjan> er what
20:45:51 <oerjan> wake who up
20:46:07 <itidus21> `pastelogs wake up
20:46:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14704
20:46:53 <itidus21> kmc: hmm.. .... i don't even know how to answer that... it was too weird to explain
20:47:58 <oerjan> itidus21: that will only find the literal string "wake up", btw
20:48:19 <itidus21> you had proponents of various forms of buddhism, platoists, a lot of arguing, sex lies and video tape :P
20:48:49 <itidus21> kmc: probably yes, :P
20:50:28 <itidus21> `pastelogs finally*wake
20:50:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7876
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20:51:02 <itidus21> did i write that query wrong?
20:51:14 <itidus21> `pastelogs finally*wake
20:51:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18790
20:51:31 <itidus21> maybe just no results
20:51:40 <itidus21> `pastelogs *finally*wake*
20:51:44 <HackEgo> grep: nothing to repeat \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8439
20:53:39 <oerjan> itidus21: it's .* not * in regexps
20:54:04 <itidus21> `pastelogs .*finally.*wake.*
20:54:11 <itidus21> uh oh
20:54:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28185
20:54:19 <oerjan> also there's no need for it at the beginning and end
20:54:21 <itidus21> i didnt think that one out carefully
20:54:37 <oerjan> well it didn't seem to hurt much
20:55:04 <itidus21> `pastelogs wake.*zzo
20:55:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17009
20:55:25 <itidus21> `pastelogs zzo.*wake
20:55:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3525
20:56:05 <itidus21> ok that one has me on the trail
20:58:35 <itidus21> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-07-30 @ 01:14:20
21:00:09 <itidus21> thats all. really :P
21:01:09 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
21:01:16 <nortti-> eh
21:01:28 <nortti-> ** VenusSatanas has joined #esoteric
21:03:43 <oerjan> what horrible grammar, it should be VenusSatanis
21:04:04 <oerjan> or wait
21:04:08 <oerjan> hm maybe not
21:04:33 <oerjan> you didn't copy that, right? >:)
21:05:14 <nortti-> I copied it
21:05:38 * oerjan swats nortti- -----###
21:05:50 <nortti-> why"
21:06:20 <nortti-> I have copied everything you havevsaod about that
21:08:40 <oerjan> darn the latin link in wiktionary doesn't work
21:09:55 <itidus21> oerjan: or it could be intentionally wrong
21:10:33 <itidus21> an example of my delusions at play
21:12:03 <oerjan> apparently it can be either Satan or Satanas, but neither has a latin wiktionary item
21:12:23 <itidus21> i have a latin dictionary, but yeah...
21:12:28 <itidus21> the headwords alone aren't enough
21:13:07 <oerjan> well this is obviously nominative singular so _should_ be the headword
21:13:38 <itidus21> @_@
21:24:07 <oerjan> ais523: spam
21:24:53 <nortti-> (@^roshi) Boo
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