←2012-09-03 2012-09-04 2012-09-05→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:08:54 <zzo38> Can "a is equal to this formula's Godel number" be implemented in Typographical Number Theory?
00:20:15 <SHACHAF> Wasn't that the whole point of Typographical Number Theory?
00:27:32 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Not really; they specified a formula to mean that itself is not provable; this is different.
00:30:17 <SHACHAF> Well, in order to do that, you have to be able to talk about the formula's Gödel number.
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00:31:01 <elliott> Hey I'm going to dump lines I need in here
00:31:02 <elliott> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s/'
00:31:37 <oerjan> SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM
00:31:41 <elliott> oerjan: I deleted some spam today!
00:31:44 <elliott> That means it's alright.
00:31:45 <oerjan> yay!
00:33:28 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:33:29 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:33:29 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:33:29 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:33:29 <elliott> # is used in MIME to refer to a method of converting a sequence of
00:33:29 <elliott> # octets into a sequence of characters. If you change the default
00:33:30 <elliott> # charset, you might need to add it to VERBATIM_ENCODING below.
00:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know about Postfix?
00:34:48 <elliott> What are these virtual domain things?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:36:29 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:36:59 <elliott> SHACHAF: Who are you?
00:37:06 <SHACHAF> elliott: I'm shachaf.
00:37:10 <SHACHAF> (Don't tell anyone!)
00:37:33 <SHACHAF> I didn't get welcomed in here for some reason.
00:37:42 <elliott> `WELCOME shachaf
00:40:28 <Lumpio-> 03:33:29 < elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:40:33 <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:42:45 <Arc_Koen> hey guys
00:43:04 <Arc_Koen> if I'm in the middle of making a language but it's not complete yet, should I make a wiki page for it or not?
00:43:10 <oerjan> the haskell.org pipermail definitely does _not_ format non-plain-ascii readably, i've noticed.
00:43:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: tradition says YES NO YES NO
00:43:44 <SHACHAF> @quote elliott unsafeCoerce
00:43:44 <lambdabot> elliott says: <elliott> I like how edwardk's answer to every question always goes "most abstract solution to the problem possible --> microoptimisation details". <elliott> I swear I've seen him go
00:43:44 <lambdabot> from category theory to unboxed types and unsafeCoerce in a single line of IRC.
00:43:57 <Arc_Koen> hmm that's an interesting answer oerjan
00:44:10 <elliott> <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:44:12 <elliott> Yes.
00:44:30 <Arc_Koen> I guess i'll wait till it's a little more presentable
00:44:35 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we will appreciate if you use preview rather than saving every tiny change, however.
00:44:52 <Arc_Koen> yes of course
00:45:02 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I will present one guideline: the first version of the page should contain a little more detail than http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Ragaraja&oldid=33401.
00:45:25 <Arc_Koen> ok I'll try to top that
00:45:44 <oerjan> elliott: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
00:45:50 <Arc_Koen> also, is their a name for languages which are based on data structure which behaviour is random?
00:47:02 <Arc_Koen> elliott: though it seems that older version of that page contain more details
00:47:26 <elliott> that's the oldest version of that page, in fact
00:47:45 <elliott> oerjan: So what's up, I am out of the loop. possibly out of several loops. all of the loops?
00:48:56 <oerjan> elliott: well Fueue has been up, several interpreters and programs were written, include a TC proof (by guess who)
00:49:19 <Arc_Koen> that was kind of weird
00:49:23 <oerjan> *including
00:49:44 <elliott> oerjan: I guess... SHACHAF.
00:50:12 <oerjan> i don't think atriq's interpreter is linked yet. (that's Taneb btw)
00:50:22 <Arc_Koen> I wake up one morning, check the fueue page, and it includes a section saying that it is turing complete... I come here, ask people what happened, and apparently the only sign was oerjan saying "another day, another TC proof" before going to sleep
00:50:23 <oerjan> elliott: a very ... something ... guess.
00:50:58 <elliott> Yes, I know about atriq. I'm not *that* out of the loop yet.
00:51:03 <Arc_Koen> nope I can see only mines on the page and I would very much like to see atriq's
00:51:09 <itidus21> a very capital guess
00:51:18 <elliott> Arc_Koen: oerjan likes to surprise us like that
00:51:25 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i mumbled something about underload (minus S) possibly being convertible to fueue before that
00:51:57 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Huh?
00:52:13 <Arc_Koen> also i found a truth machine in fueue on the truth machine's page, was that you?
00:52:16 <oerjan> SHACHAF: Huh what?
00:52:27 <oerjan> no i don't think that was me
00:52:34 <Arc_Koen> okay
00:53:02 <Arc_Koen> so I had an idea for a language where variables are shuffled every now and then
00:53:10 <Arc_Koen> has that been done before?
00:53:20 <SHACHAF> oerjan: What's wrong with guessing that I did a TC proof?
00:53:28 <SHACHAF> Is it because I don't care about esolangs?
00:53:29 <oerjan> no Taneb did the truth-machine back in february
00:53:34 <Arc_Koen> oh, ok
00:53:36 <SHACHAF> :-(
00:54:03 <oerjan> SHACHAF: it's not what i was hinting, anyway.
00:54:13 <Arc_Koen> so, variables are shuffled, like "it's annoying but deal with it, and try to prove that this language is still usable"
00:54:56 <oerjan> i don't recall precisely, there was one where the values of variables degraded...
00:55:05 <Arc_Koen> like inflation?
00:55:42 <Arc_Koen> (can't find anything about "degrade" or "degrading" or whatever on the wiki, though)
00:55:58 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic may have similar languages
00:56:07 <Arc_Koen> (also it's 3am here and I vaguely remember 4 hours ago when I told myself "let's go to sleep now", so i'll be off)
00:56:22 <itidus21> occasionally shuffling variables sounds original
00:56:58 <Arc_Koen> well basically the date structure is a queue + nine variables (or another arbitrary number)
00:57:05 <Arc_Koen> except that there is no "pop" function
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00:57:33 <Arc_Koen> but whenever one of the nine cells's value is 0, it is immediately filled with the next number in the queue
00:57:48 <Arc_Koen> immediately followed by all nine variables being shuffled
00:58:11 <SHACHAF> monqy: /nick MONQY
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00:58:23 <monqy> no
00:58:24 <elliott> monqy: happy occasion
00:58:27 <monqy> oh
00:58:28 <monqy> hi
00:58:33 <monqy> what's the occasion
00:58:35 <SHACHAF> monqy: Happy occasion!
00:58:36 <elliott> i died
00:58:41 <SHACHAF> monqy: It's time to capitalize on the occasion,.
00:58:55 <SHACHAF> /nick MONQY
00:58:58 <Arc_Koen> anyway, have a nice good end of the night or whatever time it is
00:58:59 <SHACHAF> elliott: /nick ELLIOTT
00:59:05 <SHACHAF> oerjan: /nick OERJAN
00:59:05 <elliott> Arc_Koen: it's 2 am :(
00:59:31 <oerjan> hm i cannot find the language i was thinking of
01:02:23 <Arc_Koen> I've seen several joke languages along the lines of "instructions have a random behaviour" but they were nothing more than jokes
01:02:58 <monqy> were they even jokes?
01:03:26 <oerjan> there is Sortle but it does the opposite of shuffling :)
01:04:24 <elliott> monqy: no the ywere odd jokes ha ha
01:04:26 <oerjan> "•Each Sorted! program is, in fact, sorted, albeit randomly. Hence the name!"
01:05:19 <elliott> gerson kurz right
01:05:36 <oerjan> yes
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01:09:25 <Sgeo> I'm confused about Sortle
01:09:34 <Sgeo> The hello world example
01:10:00 <Sgeo> When hello renames itself to "hello, world", doesn't that get re-inserted before quit, and so shouldn't it get evaluated again?
01:10:35 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess I'm uncertain about where evaluation resumes
01:11:29 <itidus21> i just had a sort of idea, while looking at huby.. a language which enforces a specific coding style
01:12:50 <itidus21> i was thinking of c or c++ in particular.. especially forcing you to use exact names for the arguments to main
01:13:40 <itidus21> so **argv would be valid, but *argv[] would be invalid and **argsv would be invalid
01:15:28 <hagb4rd> you can only achieve the final state of sophisticated huby coding while beeing naked
01:16:29 <itidus21> well.. i was looking at huby and i thought... what if it had code around it to make it a c polyglot?
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01:17:25 <itidus21> then i thought, what if you had to copy certain text exactly at the start and end of a huby program
01:23:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: 18:22 <typoclass> SIGCHAF: thanks
01:23:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: looking at the comments of the perl implementation, control passes to the next expression after the _new_ place of the currently evaluated one
01:23:57 <oerjan> unless it was deleted entirely
01:24:02 <elliott> kill -SIGCHAF SHACHAF
01:24:23 <SHACHAF> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
01:24:56 <Sgeo> oerjan, spec should say that
01:35:25 <zzo38> Can you put support to configure number of bits in a byte, in LLVM?
01:35:30 <zzo38> I asked LLVM IRC
01:38:04 <zzo38> They did not respond to me.
01:46:01 <zzo38> RogueVM uses 32 bits in a byte so it would be useful to allow you to set bits in a byte to whatever you want, so this way it can combine for RogueVM, as well as systems with other numbers such as 36 bits, 7 bits, 18 bits, or whatever else it is.
01:46:52 <oerjan> zzo38: does it have a separate concept of words? otherwise why not just declare 32 bits to be a word.
01:47:10 <oerjan> since it's 4 ordinary bytes
01:47:48 <oerjan> i guess you'd need to turn off byte-specific instructions somehow
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Does anyone in here play Backgammon?
01:48:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I think I became interested in Backgammon because of here
01:50:57 <zzo38> oerjan: RogueVM has no separate concept of words, but it calls 32 bits a byte, and 8 bits an octet. There are some instructions that deal with 64-bit numbers, but usually 32-bit numbers are dealt with. Addresses point to 32-bit words which is why it is called a byte.
01:51:42 <zzo38> But yes those things about LLVM are the thing to consider; I would want it to be part of the machine specification, to specify the number of bits in a byte, defaulting to 8 (current LLVM always uses 8 as far as I know, and this cannot be changed).
01:54:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know Backgammon; someone showed me how to play, once. I have thought of making Backgammon Card, too. I sometimes play on X-BIT.
01:55:05 <zzo38> (The backgammon against computer played on X-BIT does not implement the doubling cube, and the person who showed me how to play at first also did not know how to use doubling cube, although I have later read a book to learn what it means.)
01:55:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Octets are mostly used in describing the file format of RogueVM (the file format is actually a ZIP archive).
01:56:03 <pikhq> zzo38: You could just use more normal terminology: you deal in 8 bit bytes and 32 bit words.
01:56:28 <zzo38> pikhq: A "byte" is defined as the unit that the address points to.
01:57:00 <pikhq> zzo38: A "byte" is more commonly defined as an octet, regardless of how addressing works.
01:57:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is also one way it is defined; but I use "byte" in the other meaning. (I think the PDP-11 or something actually had another different meaning of "byte" than these two.)
01:58:39 <zzo38> Thanks for the comments anyways; perhaps I should mention it with "N.B." or something like that to avoid confusion.
01:58:55 <zzo38> (It is currently mentioned in the introduction, but not with "N.B.".)
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02:26:21 <Sgeo> In a luck-involving game such as backgammon, do the future rolls of the dice count as "hidden information"?
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02:33:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't think so, no
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02:48:05 <oerjan> :t runST
02:48:06 <lambdabot> forall a. (forall s. ST s a) -> a
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04:24:48 <Sgeo> I sometimes feel like my thought processes are glacial: Slow but powerful
04:24:54 <Sgeo> It's the "slow" part that distresses me
04:25:07 <Sgeo> I feel like I sometimes rely on cached mental formulas to do stuff quickly
04:25:26 <zzo38> I also think slow sometimes (but sometimes faster)
04:25:40 <zzo38> Those other stuff too yes I do sometimes too
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05:16:43 <SHACHAF> kmc: seen kmc
05:31:09 <elliott> `welcome elliott
05:31:10 <elliott> oops
05:31:12 <elliott> `welcome Eladith
05:31:13 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:31:15 <HackEgo> Eladith: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:16:09 <oklopol> Sgeo: at least in my game theory book randomness and hidden information are different chapters :P
06:19:42 <oklopol> perhaps it's only hidden information if it's not hidden to everyone?
06:25:22 <fizzie> elliott: I do have some Postfix installations, if that counts.
06:26:32 <elliott> fizzie: too bad i worked it out i think
06:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: why does it all suck and crap
06:26:39 <elliott> that's my real question
06:26:39 <elliott> of life
06:26:40 <elliott> :(
06:26:42 <elliott> im sleep
06:27:11 <fizzie> I don't have life installations, so I don't really know about that.
06:27:49 <zzo38> pikhq_: I added "N.B." for the byte meaning 32 bits in this document since it is an important note ("N.B." is Latin for "important note")
06:28:03 <elliott> I.N.
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06:32:47 <fizzie> "Important, not."
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07:07:21 <zzo38> Have you ever made a C code including things like this: struct { void*x[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; }
07:07:48 <SHACHAF> Compile-time assert?
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07:09:18 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Yes that is what it will do
07:09:32 <SHACHAF> zzo38: I think the conventional way to write it isn't quite like that.
07:09:40 <SHACHAF> But I'm not surprised that you would write it like that. :-)
07:10:12 <zzo38> But you cannot use sizeof in the preprocessor!
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07:18:14 <fizzie> If you're writing C11 (I'm sure everybody is by now, it's already 2012!) you can write it as _Static_assert(sizeof(short) == 2, "my shorts are the wrong size");
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08:18:07 <atriq> Is "Juan de Vojnkov" someone on here?
08:18:13 <atriq> Because Google+ thinks I may know him
08:21:58 <atriq> Oh dear god what is PEX
08:22:01 <atriq> *PEZ
08:23:34 <atriq> Also, is it bad that I call the Windows key on my keyboard "the flag button"?
08:27:26 <fizzie> By PEZ do you mean the candy dispenser things?
08:27:58 <atriq> I mean the thing that is referred to in the topic
08:28:08 <atriq> Which apparently has something to do with candy
08:28:09 <fizzie> Oh. Well, it does mention candy.
08:28:09 <atriq> So maybe
08:28:38 <fizzie> PEZ are these spring-loaded things where you stack candy to, and then you turn the "head" of it, and candy comes out.
08:28:50 <fizzie> It's kind of like killing small critters by twisting their necks, and then candy.
08:29:20 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hello_Kitty_PEZ_dispenser_open_II.jpg -- kind of like this in action.
08:29:48 <fizzie> Though from what I seem to recall, the candy used to be pretty much white always, no matter what the official flavour was. That's very pink.
08:30:28 <atriq> How odd
08:30:40 <fizzie> "Some Pez dispensers can sell for large amounts as collectibles. The highest verifiable sale of a Pez dispenser was a private sale of a Mickey Mouse softhead at $7000 between an Austrian dealer and a US collector."
08:30:58 <fizzie> "Conventions are also annually held in Austria, Finland, Sweden, and in the US in Missouri, California, Minnesota, Connecticut and South Carolina."
08:31:04 <fizzie> What's Finland doing on that list?
08:31:06 <fizzie> Weirds.
08:31:30 <atriq> Maybe they're mixing Finland up with a thin lad
08:31:44 <atriq> Who collects Pezs
08:32:03 <fizzie> Anyway, they sell also candy-only packages, so you can keep using your favourite dispenser.
08:32:31 <fizzie> I think I have a single PEZ device at home.
08:33:57 <fizzie> As for the key, I've heard it called the "logo key" by people who don't want to reference Windows, but apparently "flag key" is used too.
08:34:21 <atriq> It confuses people who I'm talking to
08:34:28 <atriq> When I say "press the flag key"
08:34:32 <atriq> "The what?"
08:34:40 <atriq> "You know, the one with the flag on it"
08:34:49 <atriq> "Oh, the start button"
08:34:55 <atriq> "Yeah, on the keyboard"
08:36:41 <fizzie> You can start calling it the "super key", that's what it usually produces.
08:37:40 <fizzie> (Caution: Might also confuse people.)
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08:46:12 <atriq> Well, that was all I had to say
08:46:13 <atriq> Bye
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12:00:23 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
12:00:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:05:40 <atriq> @messages
12:05:40 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
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12:10:56 <Arc_Koen> atriq: so I haven't seen your haskell fueue interpreter
12:11:47 <atriq> I'm doing a thing with it
12:12:00 <atriq> And I really ought to make back ups, but I don't
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12:57:53 <Sgeo> Woah wait what
12:58:14 <Sgeo> XChat is abandoned and XChat-WDK got renamed to HexChat and seeks to take over?
13:02:29 <fizzie> The former was I thought kind of old news. At least there hasn't been any releases in quite a while.
13:04:54 <atriq> HexChat!?
13:05:09 <atriq> For people from Hexham?
13:09:25 <fizzie> For cursed people?!
13:09:40 <atriq> For people cursed to be from Hexham!?
13:16:03 <fizzie> A fate worse than death?!
13:16:51 <atriq> Not really
13:17:00 <atriq> We've got a swimming pool and a bowling alley
13:17:07 <atriq> And a lot of restaurants
13:17:25 <atriq> So, unless you need tex-mex and want a 100m swimming pool, Hexham's pretty good
13:17:50 <atriq> #hexham-tourist-board
13:19:44 <fizzie> Oh, no tex-mex? I thought that was kind of everywhere.
13:19:53 <atriq> Nah
13:20:23 <fizzie> There was one in Järvenpää, which is kind of nowhere.
13:20:24 <atriq> We've got French, Greek, two Italian (plus a take-away), Thai, Chinese..
13:20:41 <atriq> Three Chinese and a take-away
13:20:42 <fizzie> Well, I suppose it was kind of Tex-Mex/Finnish ice-hockey bar hybrid.
13:20:49 <atriq> The take away has nice chips
13:20:50 <fizzie> But it did look a bit out of place.
13:21:15 <fizzie> And I suppose Järvenpää is larger, population 38,993.
13:21:53 <atriq> We don't have a climbing wall, either
13:22:08 <atriq> But there are two small football teams(!)
13:26:28 <Gregor> NO TEX-MEX
13:26:29 <Gregor> ?!?!
13:26:46 <atriq> No
13:26:50 <atriq> No fast food, either
13:27:00 <Gregor> Really? Wow.
13:27:08 <Gregor> Or maybe that's not so unusual for the UK *shrugs*
13:27:13 <atriq> McDonald's tried to open one, but they couldn't get planning permission
13:27:17 <Gregor> In the US, a small town without some burger joint is incomprehensible.
13:27:18 <atriq> It is pretty unusual for the UK
13:27:49 <Gregor> Man. No fast food, and, because you're British, you don't know how to cook eggs.
13:27:53 <Gregor> How the hell do you Hexhamites live?
13:28:03 <atriq> Slowly, and without eggs
13:28:27 <atriq> Of course
13:28:50 <Gregor> Hard to argue with that logic *shrugs*
13:29:13 <atriq> We've got a few chippies, and they're kind of like fast food places
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13:34:54 <itidus21> even i can cook eggs.. i know 2 styles! hard boiled and fried.
13:35:52 <itidus21> my dad was keen on the idea of cooking eggs inside a sandwich maker, but that just doesn't work man
13:37:58 <Gregor> “Fried” is at least five styles. If you don't agree, then you don't know how to cook eggs ;)
13:38:24 <Gregor> (At lest six if you categorize “scrambled” within “fried”)
13:38:28 <itidus21> ok ill be specific, i know how to take a frying pan, put some oil in it, and break an egg into it
13:38:39 <itidus21> and end up with something edible
13:38:48 <Gregor> See, even Brits can get that far, but they don't know how to cook an egg.
13:38:58 <Gregor> Because {under,over} {easy,medium,hard} are all different.
13:39:38 <Gregor> And they don't recognize that breaking a yolk can be a good thing.
13:39:55 <fizzie> We don't know how to cook an egg either.
13:40:18 <Gregor> It's reaaaaaaaally fun bringing foreigners to breakfast restaurants by the way.
13:40:27 <Gregor> “How do you want your eggs?” “... cooked?”
13:40:59 <fizzie> Though we do tend to have these "no-brand" in-a-non-mobile-trailer kind of fast food "places" quite often.
13:41:25 <Gregor> fizzie: Food carts! Food carts can be FANTASTIC (or horrifying)
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13:42:03 <fizzie> Ours are on the determinedly non-fantastic end of the scale. Though I understand late night their queues make for the most popular places to get a knife in you.
13:42:35 <Gregor> Super!
13:42:38 <fizzie> At least if you make the mistake of opening your mouth.
13:42:55 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: the only brits I've seen cooking eggs took the frying pan, broke an egg on it, and then put oil on it
13:42:57 <fizzie> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grillikioski
13:43:15 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: So they can't even get that part right???
13:43:28 <Gregor> fizzie: Well, if you ever find yourself in Portland, Oregon, do yourself a favor and don't shirk the food carts.
13:43:35 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: oh, i at least took the effort of heating the pan first, and i got the oil out of a can with a broken nozzle
13:43:45 <fizzie> Gregor: What a coincidence: I'll be flying to Portland, Oregon this Saturday.
13:44:09 <fizzie> (And then back out from there next... Thursday.)
13:44:11 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: in their defense it was only a student house restaurant
13:44:17 <Gregor> fizzie: Oh? Whyzzat?
13:44:30 <itidus21> it was a mess, i felt like a cook from one of those horror movies who serves nothing actually edible
13:44:32 <fizzie> Gregor: There's the Interspeech 2012 conference Sun-Thu.
13:45:07 <Gregor> Where in Portland?
13:45:36 <fizzie> Some Hilton Tower This Or That.
13:45:38 <fizzie> "Hilton Portland & Executive Tower".
13:45:43 <Gregor> Ah, the Hilton.
13:45:56 <Gregor> There's a block o' food carts about four blocks up from that.
13:45:58 <itidus21> basically i can't cook eggs good enough to serve to others
13:46:51 <fizzie> There will probably be colleagues interested about lunch, I'll recommend the cart thing. Though I seem to recall reading something about Portland's food carts in wikitravel or somewhere, so I suppose they're kind of known.
13:47:07 <Gregor> They are. It's no myth.
13:47:56 <fizzie> Okay, off to go buy some just-in-case dollars. ->
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15:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <atriq> But there are two small football teams(!)
15:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> by small do you mean they only have 8 players
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15:12:44 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:12:44 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:12:52 <AnotherTest> @messages
15:12:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 19h 38m 58s ago: No. + = 43, . = 46
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15:30:00 <fizzie> > ord <$> "+."
15:30:01 <lambdabot> [43,46]
15:30:11 <fizzie> He's right!
15:33:02 <AnotherTest> Well that depends of his definition of "right after"
15:35:13 <AnotherTest> but for an alphabet consisting of only alphanumeric characters and + and ., ordered by their ASCII values; '.' would be right after '+' for sure
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18:49:57 <kmc> so is MySQL the PHP of databases
18:50:08 <AnotherTest1> yes
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18:52:15 <kmc> that was my impression as well
18:52:22 <kmc> have googled the phrase "PHP of databases" and found many people who agree
18:52:38 <AnotherTest> Well it's most widely used
18:52:43 <kmc> but this is not exactly an unbiased way to decide on MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
18:52:45 <AnotherTest> just like PHP
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18:56:08 <fizzie> What's the PHP of freenode channels? (... #php?)
18:57:25 <AnotherTest> Yes.
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19:01:07 <atriq> What's the PHP of server-side web languages?
19:01:20 <nortti> php
19:01:20 <AnotherTest> PHP?
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19:03:32 <kmc> what's the PHP of analogies
19:03:43 <itidus21> apparently windows is the php of operating systems
19:03:46 <kmc> probably car analogies
19:04:13 <kmc> or monad tutorials
19:04:23 <fizzie> fungot: What's the PHP of IRC bots?
19:04:24 <fungot> fizzie: yes 15 minutes, throws out the tea, and steeps for 15 minutes
19:05:21 <AnotherTest> what the php of esoteric programming languages?
19:05:23 <fizzie> I had a script somewhere that could use fungot to continue sentences. It can be used to determine things. (Just things, in general.)
19:05:23 <fungot> fizzie: can you read from it......
19:05:25 <AnotherTest> *what's
19:06:05 <itidus21> "Windows is the PHP of operating systems, it turned up late, got real popular, got tons of shit supporting it and it's still shit."
19:06:34 <AnotherTest> So what would apple be like?
19:06:48 <AnotherTest> Linux would be like the Perl of operating systems.
19:07:33 <itidus21> "I had to change aux to auxm as Windows does not allow files named aux. After that the bare mode worked." "You should've seen my face when I realized you were speaking the truth :) Is windows the PHP of operating systems or what?!"
19:08:41 <nortti> AnotherTest: what would be lisp of operating systems?
19:08:52 <nortti> forth of operating systems is forth
19:09:04 <itidus21> Plan 9 is the LISP of operating systems.
19:09:12 <itidus21> ^quoting google
19:09:16 <nortti> ?
19:09:39 <nortti> well I have been wanting to try plan9 for some time
19:09:43 <AnotherTest> nortti: solaris - long gone :p
19:09:53 <fizzie> Genera is kind of also the LISP of operating systems.
19:10:09 <nortti> AnotherTest: lisp isn't long gone
19:10:12 <AnotherTest> It should be an operating systems with lots of variants
19:10:15 <nortti> AnotherTest: neither is solaris
19:10:21 <AnotherTest> That makes me think of linux
19:10:42 <AnotherTest> but since Perl already is :(
19:10:46 <fizzie> Linux: the everything of operating systems.
19:11:22 <nortti> why there isn't a x86 port of genera?
19:11:25 <nortti> it is awesome
19:11:30 <itidus21> and, more comprehensively
19:11:33 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs, PHP of web servers, and Java and Javascript of web browsers.
19:11:44 <AnotherTest> internet explorer is also the php of browsers
19:12:19 <AnotherTest> bye!
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19:12:31 <nortti> and now I am wondering why itidus21's message was hilighted
19:13:01 <Lumpio-> I haven't seen a single valid use for Java in a browser in a long time.
19:13:02 <itidus21> i can help
19:13:09 <itidus21> nortti: ill try a binary search
19:13:14 <fizzie> Old highlight set for "visual basic" to catch all those interesting discussions?
19:13:26 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:13:33 <nortti> that hilights
19:13:39 <itidus21> Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:13:42 <nortti> yes
19:13:48 <itidus21> Visual Basic
19:13:53 <nortti> no
19:13:56 <itidus21> humm
19:14:04 <itidus21> of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:14:07 <nortti> yes
19:14:12 <itidus21> of Windows, (a form of)
19:14:15 <nortti> no
19:14:20 <itidus21> Lisp of Emacs,
19:14:23 <nortti> yes
19:14:26 <itidus21> :o
19:14:28 <fizzie> Emacs?
19:14:34 <nortti> no
19:14:36 <fizzie> Lisp?
19:14:38 <nortti> yes
19:14:47 <fizzie> Interesting.
19:16:21 <nortti> I seem to have hilights for nortti, oonbotti, dfc, touhou, 666, forth, lisp, glibc
19:16:42 <itidus21> and foo
19:17:00 <nortti> yes
19:18:05 <nortti> oh. pc98 also
19:29:21 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
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19:38:14 <nortti__> fizzie: do you know why I'm banned from ##asm?
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20:00:57 <zzo38> I have thought of backgammon card rules: You use the cards 1 to 6 from a deck of cards of four suits (24 cards in total). You have eighteen stones, four of which are suited (one for each suit) and the rest unsuited. Each player is dealt five cards, four face down and one face up. Doubles are only redoubled if both cards are of the same color as well.
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20:13:15 <atriq> Sgeo, thing!
20:13:19 <atriq> Thing-y thing!
20:13:30 <atriq> Tell the channel Homestucks!
20:19:07 <nortti> http://m.engadget.com/2012/09/04/unreleased-nokia-lauta-qwerty-slider-emerges/ I hope it is really called lauta and that is not just something lost in translation
20:24:08 <fizzie> nortti: The underlines, but I guess you found that out.
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20:51:19 <zzo38> I realized, the reason the person who shown me how to play backgammon, did not know the doubling cube, as well as a few other variants, is because it is Persian rules. Persian rules do not use doubling cube, and a piece hitting an opponent's piece in your home cannot move again on the same turn.
20:54:25 <Arc_Koen> weird
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20:55:23 <Arc_Koen> about the doubling cube, many strategy or tactic games could use it as a variant
20:56:04 <Arc_Koen> as long as you can have something similar to backgammons 1-2-3 points in a leg (a simple victory, a gammon or a backgammon)
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There... is a Kickstarter for a Homestuck adventure game. By Hussie.
20:58:27 <zzo38> (Also in the Persian rules, you cannot score three points per game; only up to two are allowed.)
20:58:48 <atriq> Yes
20:58:48 <atriq> That was the thing
20:58:48 <atriq> The thingy thing
20:59:47 <atriq> Which I have spoken of
21:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> is this real life
21:00:32 <atriq> I...
21:00:34 <atriq> I think it is
21:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> counterargument, what kind of real life includes a homestuck adventure game
21:01:21 <atriq> Obviously, a really awesome one.
21:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I dunno, they're going to cut all the cool corners.
21:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Like the Alchemiter.
21:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that they inexplicably void shipping charges to Fiji.
21:06:27 <atriq> Because Hussie ships Fiji
21:07:12 -!- nooga has joined.
21:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, as of earlier today he ships everything.
21:09:05 <atriq> Yeah, the Titanic, the Red Oktober, ALL OF THEM
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21:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> all ships are cannon
21:15:32 <itidus21> real life is overall stranger than homestuck
21:15:43 <atriq> ...
21:15:49 <atriq> It's a close one
21:16:02 <itidus21> infact, homestuck is a part of real life, giving an indication of just how strange real life is :P
21:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> OK this thing has earned $156,000 in two hours.
21:16:27 <atriq> Yeah
21:16:29 <atriq> Crazy
21:16:36 <atriq> None of those dollars are mine
21:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also itidus21 is right I'm afraid, Homestuck is mostly confusing due to lack of a time slider during flashes.
21:17:24 <itidus21> well real life has spacetime
21:17:34 <atriq> Homestuck as paradoxspacetime
21:17:41 <atriq> Anyway
21:17:52 <atriq> It's getting to the time when I don't let myself post on Tumblr
21:18:16 <itidus21> there is no way that homestuck's finite reality can be as weird as the infinite reality it is embedded within
21:18:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:18:30 <itidus21> or is there
21:18:37 <oerjan> certainly not!
21:18:37 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:18:41 <oerjan> @messages
21:18:41 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 9h 18m 17s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
21:18:55 <Arc_Koen> I think it is
21:19:23 <oerjan> oh right it is
21:19:25 <itidus21> im afraid of homestuck in a way
21:19:35 <itidus21> thats why im getting all defensive
21:20:07 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i was looking just at Category:Nondeterministic, not Category:Probabilistic, so i didn't find it
21:20:58 <Arc_Koen> I was look just at "Random page"
21:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> thats why im getting all defensive
21:21:11 <Arc_Koen> and I found a language that's random!
21:21:11 <oerjan> heh
21:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you truly are an odd fellow iti
21:23:27 <itidus21> i'm a bit sick in me head
21:23:33 * oerjan makes probabilistic a subcategory of nondeterministic
21:26:30 <Arc_Koen> oh, you just did that
21:26:44 * Arc_Koen was thinking "wait, something's *different*
21:27:26 <Arc_Koen> so anyway, i made a page for the language I was talking about yesterday when you brought up Entropy: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower
21:29:08 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well it's the nondeterministic category, you cannot expect it to be the same each tim
21:29:11 <oerjan> *+e
21:29:17 <atriq> Goodnight
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21:29:19 <Arc_Koen> haha
21:32:03 <Arc_Koen> oh yeah I know why it felt weird
21:32:52 <Arc_Koen> I had category:probabilistic and category:nondeterministic opened in two tabs; nondeterministic had probabilistic as a subcategory but probabilistic did not have nondeterministic as a parent category
21:36:34 <Arc_Koen> so I was wondering, are queue-based languages usually turing-complete? for instance on the stack page it is said that programs using two stacks are usually turing-complete; what about languages using a single queue?
21:40:17 <kmc> the queue analogue of a pushdown automaton is turing complete
21:40:24 <kmc> iirc
21:40:39 <kmc> because you can easily cycle through the whole queue, which makes it like a random-access tape
21:41:02 <kmc> similarly you can treat two stacks as a tape which goes from the bottom of the first stack to the top, and then from the top of the second stack to the bottom
21:41:09 <kmc> such that you move on the tape by popping from one and pushing to the other
21:41:25 <kmc> and these are fun things to prove
21:41:37 <kmc> we had both of those on a problem set in computability and complexity
21:41:47 <oerjan> in fact one of our very simplest TC languages, BCT, is queue-based
21:42:16 <kmc> stephen wolfram trollface
21:43:20 <oerjan> when your language isn't specifically more suited for emulating something else, emulating BCT is a good bet for proving TC-ness
21:44:38 <Arc_Koen> intersting
21:45:02 <oerjan> and yes, more general tag systems are what was used to prove rule 110 "universal" which stephen wolfram wrote about in his book
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21:45:10 <Arc_Koen> new plan: I'm gonna prove the current version of kst turing-complete and then add some restrictions to make it less easily turing-complete
21:45:31 <oerjan> (universal isn't quite the same as TC because this required an infinite setup)
21:46:28 <Arc_Koen> I don't actually know what wolfram's rules are - I started looking into it once and I don't even remember why I stopped
21:47:25 <Arc_Koen> wait, in bct the datastring and the programstring are two strings? or is it the same?
21:48:07 <oerjan> two strings
21:48:44 <oerjan> i think there was a variant which unified them, but i don't think anyone's managed to prove it TC. unless i did and forgot it :P
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21:49:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: also implementing a tape as two stacks, then the stacks as (linked) lists is a nice way of getting a purely functional tape in ocaml or haskell
21:50:20 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what they call a zipper isn't it?
21:50:20 <oerjan> one which can be extended automatically
21:50:59 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i guess that's true, although i think this may be older than the zipper concept, but maybe not.
21:52:13 <oerjan> while getting a purely functional queue is a bitch in comparison
21:52:52 <oerjan> (haskell's Data.Sequence uses "finger trees" for that)
21:53:04 <oerjan> *+module
21:54:35 <oerjan> unless you want to reverse the entire data structure when wrapping around, then you can use the tape trick modified. finger trees have less latency or something.
21:55:07 <Arc_Koen> well in Ocaml you can easily implement linked lists so I don't see why a purely functional queue would be so hard to do
21:55:28 * Arc_Koen has no idea what he's talking about, though
21:56:03 <Arc_Koen> on a totally unrelated matter: if I come across a category, say http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Concurrent_programming , that's not on the Special:Categorization page, should I add it there or what?
21:56:55 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: the thing is you cannot purely functionally _modify_ a two-way linked list efficiently
21:57:03 <oerjan> while it's easy with mutation
21:57:12 <Arc_Koen> two-way?
21:57:22 <oerjan> links both forward and backward
21:57:24 <oerjan> oh hm
21:57:27 <Arc_Koen> a queue needs only one way
21:57:44 <oerjan> well right. you cannot easily modify the end of a one-way one, either. :P
21:57:58 <Arc_Koen> yep probably not :/
21:58:18 <Arc_Koen> I was think a deque would need two-way, but when I think about it a deque is kind of the same thing as two stacks
21:58:48 <Arc_Koen> ah hum maybe not
21:59:00 <Arc_Koen> aaaaand it's late so good night
21:59:16 <Arc_Koen> (if I'm still at 3am please swat me)
22:00:47 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: technically that category wasn't added properly, i see. we're supposed to discuss such things on Esolang talk:Categorization
22:01:04 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I've come to understand
22:02:35 <oerjan> a deque definitely needs something like two-way (or finger trees)
22:03:10 <oerjan> i took the chance with Probabilistic as that was added by our former administrator
22:03:53 <oerjan> i suppose Concurrent_programming is only a couple years younger
22:04:12 <Arc_Koen> how about a one-way cyclic list
22:04:14 <oerjan> although i'm not sure exactly _where_ it would fit on the page, so i think it still needs discussion.
22:04:22 <Arc_Koen> (that's how Ocaml Queue module is implemented)
22:05:12 <Arc_Koen> Concurrent_programming is a subcategory of programming techniques - in my opinion it's more something like a paradigm or something
22:05:25 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: no - how would you remove the end element with a one-way cyclic list?
22:05:33 <oerjan> you cannot get the second last easily
22:05:38 <Arc_Koen> oh, true
22:06:16 <Arc_Koen> but you can push at both ends and pop from one end out of two
22:06:25 <Arc_Koen> so that 75% works
22:07:15 <oerjan> heh
22:07:25 <Arc_Koen> though that has nothing to do with the queue being cyclic
22:25:43 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
22:26:33 <Arc_Koen> yes I was quite annoyed by the first column being one-word large and the second being one-page large
22:28:19 <oerjan> on the widest cell in the column, put style="white-space:nowrap"
22:30:13 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Qdeql&diff=31204&oldid=31190 shows how i used that in Qdeql before ehird added a simpler way to get preformatted code
22:30:28 <oerjan> *get it for preformatted code
22:31:25 <oerjan> which means, btw, that if your column contains preformatted code, you may want to use the {| class="wikitable plainpres" method instead
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22:32:10 <oerjan> hm which it is. let me fix that for you.
22:32:33 <Arc_Koen> was it so obvious that I did not understood?
22:32:37 <Arc_Koen> understand*
22:32:59 <oerjan> um you didn't?
22:33:08 <Arc_Koen> hum I'm trying to
22:33:44 <oerjan> anyway it's a method that was added specifically for our wiki, because we have all these tables with code in them :)
22:33:45 <Arc_Koen> it's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower : the function tables, especially the conditionals/loops one, have a very thin first column which is annoying especially for the for loop
22:37:52 <oerjan> done
22:38:13 <Arc_Koen> so you replaced "code" with "pre"
22:38:20 <oerjan> and added plainpres
22:38:34 <Arc_Koen> what does it change?
22:38:56 <oerjan> it removes the border and margins around <pre>s
22:39:10 <oerjan> so they look almost like code
22:39:48 <Arc_Koen> hmmm ok
22:39:49 <oerjan> but can still be multiline. also they don't change the background, which matters in ! fields
22:40:15 <oerjan> *! cells
22:40:29 <Arc_Koen> and what does space:nowrap does?
22:41:11 <oerjan> white-space:nowrap is a more general way of preventing wrapping
22:42:48 <oerjan> it needs to be added to the widest cell in the column, but it still got so ugly for the Qdeql tables that ehird made the new method which is easier
22:43:15 <oerjan> oh well actually much of the ugliness was to avoid the background changing
22:43:58 <oerjan> oh not to mention the horrible &nbsp;s
22:44:07 <kmc> lending credibility to my claim that MySQL is the PHP of databases is the fact that MySQL advocates and PHP advocates have similar responses when you confront them with bizarre behavior from their respective programs
22:44:13 <kmc> at least, in skimming a few "MySQL sucks" threads
22:45:01 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/sets/72157629492908038/
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22:56:11 * oerjan adds a mention of plainpres to Help:Editing
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23:03:15 <Arc_Koen> well thanks for all the help
23:03:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: also don't hesitate to come back for a round in frc :)
23:03:47 <Arc_Koen> and have a good night everyone
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23:25:40 * oerjan recalls his thesis advisor could make cheese soufflé
23:26:13 <oerjan> mainly because his wife refused to make it for him
23:26:49 <zzo38> I realized in RogueVM I have only assigned four addressing modes even though it is three bits, so now I have added four more modes: Double-indirect by address, two registers indirect, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset and reverse.
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23:27:03 <zzo38> I also wrote some things about assembly syntax.
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23:44:47 <itidus21> one possible scenario is
23:45:13 <itidus21> bob beats up tom
23:46:05 <itidus21> a con artist approaches tom infront of bob with a surefire getrich scheme
23:46:20 <zzo38> Who are they? What getrich scheme is it?
23:46:25 <itidus21> the con artist has convinced bob, but not tom
23:46:36 <FreeFull> Probably some pyramid scheme
23:46:55 <zzo38> Does he have to wait until Tom gets back up?
23:46:56 <itidus21> so tom's arm now gets twisted to go along with the scheme
23:47:12 <itidus21> zzo38: oh.. ^beats up occasionally
23:47:18 <zzo38> OK.
23:47:21 <itidus21> i dont know a better way to say this
23:48:49 <itidus21> i think it means, sometimes people are under pressure from people around them to accept unreliable financial opportunities
23:49:23 <zzo38> OK
23:49:36 <itidus21> the people making these schemes will quickly catch onto this fact somehow
23:50:11 <itidus21> maybe theres no actual substance to what i'm saying
23:56:11 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today. Out-ambush the ambushers, out-assassinate the assassins, ...
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