←2012-09-04 2012-09-05 2012-09-06→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:19:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, [expr] in a Lisp-family language. Good idea or bad idea?
00:19:47 <Sgeo> (Using lists of course, not strings.)
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01:02:28 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Okay I guess.
01:02:39 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I mean, it's basically giving you an arithmetic expression DSL.
01:02:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Seems Lisp-like, even if it's not strictly speaking typical of Lisps.
01:03:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, #clojure people are now badmouthing Noir
01:03:52 <Sgeo> Should I be scared of Noir now?
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01:05:44 <kmc> people will badmouth anything which actually gets used
01:05:50 <kmc> try #haskell instead
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01:09:01 <Sgeo> "hiredman: Moses: it is stateful and doesn't compose, is full of all kinds of (add-whatever calls) that need to happen in a certain order etc"
01:13:26 <Sgeo> And the creator of Noir is currently in #clojure
02:10:30 <kmc> does he/she have anything to say to this criticism
02:30:27 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure
03:02:01 <zzo38> Did William Shakespeare write all of them by himself or is something else?
03:18:28 <zzo38> Probably he did write them. Not necessarily all by himself, though.
03:19:30 <zzo38> Nevertheless you got his name wrong. His name is Wilm Shaxpr.
03:21:30 <kmc> wilm shapr
03:25:33 <oerjan> i shall only refer (again?) to http://sheldoncomics.com/archive/070810.html
03:27:15 <kmc> heh
03:27:20 <kmc> spelling wasn't really... a thing
03:27:22 <kmc> back then
03:28:02 <oerjan> what is spellyng, butte a foolishe endeavoure
03:28:47 <kmc> let no man put asunder what I believe is thee proper attyre for footballe
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03:37:53 <pikhq_> Gah. What insane bastard designed C++ IO.
03:38:08 <pikhq_> Its error handling is the most anemic I have seen in any language.
03:38:26 <pikhq_> Now, what would you expect? Exceptions, given that that's a C++ feature?
03:38:27 <pikhq_> No.
03:38:37 <pikhq_> There's an error flag.
03:38:44 <pikhq_> That is all the information you can get.
03:38:47 <pikhq_> There was an error.
03:38:58 <pikhq_> Was it a parse failure? Was it a catastrophic failure of disk?
03:39:02 <pikhq_> You have no way of knowing.
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03:45:33 <kmc> if it used exceptions people would also bitch and moan
03:45:44 <kmc> a lot of C++ users disable exceptions
03:45:49 <kmc> but yes, a single error flag is not adequate
03:46:10 <kmc> i'm something of a C++ apologist and I still use C stdio more often than not
03:48:07 <pikhq_> There is nothing to excuse C++'s IO, not even in terms of "they couldn't quite see *that* it would be bad".
03:48:21 <pikhq_> Which I think makes it nearly unique among C++ features.
03:48:36 <pikhq_> At least with the rest of them I can see that there was a good idea somewhere in there.
03:48:41 <pikhq_> Or at least good intentions.
03:49:10 <pikhq_> Anyways, I'm now taking a "C++ and object-oriented programming" class, so I feel bad just schleping out to C IO.
03:50:18 <oerjan> pikhq_: there's a place that'll pay well to use those as pavement
03:50:53 <sHACHAF> I hear IO streams were the motivation for references.
03:50:54 <pikhq_> Aaaand this (trivial) assignment is asking for error handling from its IO.
03:58:06 <kmc> sHACHAF: really?
03:59:44 <sHACHAF> kmc: It's true that I heard that, but only second- or third-hand.
04:02:06 <pikhq_> Also, the operator overloading of the bit shift operators is retarded.
04:02:08 <pikhq_> Retarded I say.
04:12:47 <kmc> sHACHAF: I wrote a little program using Xlib and XInput2
04:12:55 <kmc> to make my mouse cursor wrap at the edges of the screen
04:13:15 <sHACHAF> Hah.
04:13:18 <kmc> previously I was using Synergy for this purpose
04:13:20 <sHACHAF> Is it really better that way?
04:13:29 <kmc> is the screen better with wrapping? yes
04:13:45 <kmc> my desktop is 4960 pixels wide
04:14:22 <kmc> cutting the max travel distance in half is a big deal
04:16:35 <sHACHAF> That's a lot of pixels.
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04:38:29 * Sgeo re-pick-ups his lenses in clojure idea
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05:05:19 * Sgeo is getting kind of mean with #clojure
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06:10:56 <zzo38> Can computer be made that some components use data due to the exact timing of propagation delay, not later or earlier, because data is only available at such exact moment?
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06:15:28 <pikhq_> Didn't early computers actually use that effect for their RAM?
06:16:06 <pikhq_> zzo38: I think the answer is "yes, and it has been done"
06:16:27 <zzo38> Maybe they do, but I don't mean RAM; I mean for calculation of program counter.
06:16:58 <pikhq_> ... Huh.
06:17:05 <asiekierka> zzo38 - You COULD, with good enough timing and manual sterring of the counter
06:17:13 <asiekierka> that is, each opcode contains the next PC position after it
06:17:28 <asiekierka> then you could read the bytes required while the PC was travelling the circuit?
06:17:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, it seems like the sort of thing that's possible.
06:17:48 <zzo38> I was thinking make a linear feedback shift register?
06:18:06 <pikhq_> Perhaps not at all likely to be done, but you're only asking about the possibility. ;)
06:18:18 <asiekierka> zzo38: LFSR PC steering?
06:18:19 <asiekierka> ...
06:18:23 <asiekierka> That's actually a very neat idea
06:18:26 <zzo38> I don't know how well that would work, or what other way, but I have some ideas
06:18:28 <asiekierka> but then you have to shuffle every app
06:18:37 <asiekierka> But in theory, yes, an LFSR could work with a properly arranged program
06:18:44 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I am only asking about the possibility.
06:18:48 <asiekierka> But you still have the PC INSIDE the shift registers
06:18:50 <asiekierka> So what is the point
06:19:54 <zzo38> I meant such as, is just shifts over time by itself rather than requiring a clock, so it doesn't store the data and then wait for the next one
06:20:21 <asiekierka> So...
06:20:25 <asiekierka> You want to make a clockless CPU?
06:20:50 <zzo38> That is part of it
06:21:16 <asiekierka> That is actually a *very* interesting idea
06:23:25 <asiekierka> I think there's enough physics to stop you
06:23:34 <asiekierka> But, for instance, for rapid bursts of calculation
06:23:38 <zzo38> Yes I thought there might be.
06:23:38 <asiekierka> With specific instruction sets
06:23:42 <asiekierka> It could very well work anyway
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06:24:11 <zzo38> Possibly, yes, it could. That is why I think of it.
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06:24:19 <asiekierka> zzo38 - i recommend you patent it
06:24:23 <asiekierka> you know, Apple.
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06:24:45 <asiekierka> you want to be safe against these kinds of corporate entities
06:25:31 <zzo38> I don't care if others want to use it; I just don't want others to patent it. (I also don't want to waste money on a patent.)
06:25:38 <asiekierka> hah
06:25:40 <asiekierka> :D
06:25:42 <asiekierka> gtg
06:26:51 <zzo38> Therefore I wish to place it in the public domain.
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09:53:26 <mroman> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/04/1825205/australian-attorney-general-pushes-ahead-with-govt-web-snooping
09:53:30 <mroman> poor australia.
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10:11:03 <itidus21> it could be worse
10:11:42 <itidus21> its an inevitable consequence of internet-dependancy
10:13:32 <itidus21> i think that the people who fight over these things do so primarily out of an inclination to fight, with the actual thing they are fighting over being secondary
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10:33:43 <itidus21> by it could be worse i mean, one nation doesn't deserve prosperity more than another, and any suggestion that a nation earned their prosperity by working harder than the others, or working harder defending their freedoms is a fanciful illusion
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10:35:58 <monqy> what are you on about
10:36:03 <itidus21> anything
10:36:27 <itidus21> i hope what im saying applies to most arguments
10:36:55 <sHACHAF> monqy: hi
10:37:00 <monqy> hi
10:37:14 <sHACHAF> monqy: what do you think of my nick??
10:37:21 <sHACHAF> good right
10:37:33 <monqy> Shachaf: yes
10:41:24 <sHACHAF> @slap monqy
10:41:24 * lambdabot pokes monqy in the eye
10:42:10 <itidus21> i think whats happening is the youth today is putting more trust in technology than in the elderly
10:42:32 <itidus21> wise old person = computer illiterate person
10:43:13 <monqy> what are you on about
10:43:29 <sHACHAF> monqy: I could ask you the same question!
10:43:46 <monqy> me too
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11:09:27 <itidus21> i'm on about... pudding
11:38:46 <ais523> neat: I'm reading a blog about debugging a problem found on Windows, and confirmed what the kernel was doing by looking at the ReactOS source code
11:38:54 <ais523> I didn't realise it was that close a parallel
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12:38:11 <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages?
12:40:58 <fizzie> That sounds like an AI-complete task.
12:41:10 <fizzie> There could be a person doing that, though.
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12:42:28 <fizzie> Or do you mean based on the [[Category:Foo]] things? I'm under the impression the MediaWiki software natively takes care of updating category pages as those things are added.
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12:47:40 <Arc_Koen> yes that''s what I mean
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14:42:40 <itidus21> !
14:43:02 <AnotherTest> !
14:43:24 <itidus21> so, i was just thinking, a heck of a lot of stuff isn't allowed to be made because it breaks copyright
14:43:42 <AnotherTest> Yes
14:44:07 <itidus21> but i think there should be a license that you can produce commercial derivatives so long as you pay some amount of your profits to the license holder
14:44:19 <AnotherTest> That does exist
14:44:28 <AnotherTest> well it's not an actual license I think
14:44:46 <AnotherTest> but companies can hire other companies to produce their products
14:44:58 <itidus21> well
14:45:11 <itidus21> i am watching a fun video comparing ports of some video game
14:45:29 <itidus21> and i started to think, would it be such a bad thing if companies could just make a port without asking?
14:45:37 <AnotherTest> probably
14:45:50 <AnotherTest> what if you were the person who had the original idea?
14:46:05 <AnotherTest> Would you like it if everyone made (possibly better) ports of your idea?
14:46:09 <itidus21> well the idea is they would still pay you a cut of the profits
14:46:27 <AnotherTest> So how would that be regulated?
14:46:31 <itidus21> or..
14:46:32 <itidus21> hmm
14:46:47 <AnotherTest> because they don't have to ask
14:47:02 <AnotherTest> why would they pay money?
14:47:32 <AnotherTest> suppose I had a game company
14:47:40 <AnotherTest> and my game was selling nicely
14:47:49 <AnotherTest> then you made a port of my game
14:47:53 <AnotherTest> a much better port
14:48:03 <AnotherTest> Everyone would buy your port of my game
14:48:21 <AnotherTest> I wouldn't win any money
14:48:36 <itidus21> ahh
14:49:03 <itidus21> i guess in the cases i am thinking of, it was specifically arcade games being ported to a set of inferior platforms
14:49:04 <AnotherTest> I would have to close my company and only rely on your income
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14:50:04 <itidus21> yeah you're right.
14:50:18 <itidus21> things are fine as they are. if a company wants to do that they can.
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14:50:51 <Arc_Koen> plus, not being allowed to copy implies more research for new stuff
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14:50:59 <Arc_Koen> so products of better quality
14:51:24 <itidus21> and i guess htat theres not so many platforms these ays
14:51:25 <itidus21> days
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14:52:02 <itidus21> like, the differences between all the 8bit and 16bit platforms are actually fun to look at
14:52:37 <itidus21> they can't hide their limits
14:53:40 <itidus21> this youtube channel i quite like has these videos comparing the same game on about a dozen platforms
14:53:47 <atriq> @messages?
14:53:47 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
14:56:52 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: the food chain is that you start with a good aaa 2d game, then it gets ported to some uk computer, looks like crap which is perfect fodder for youtube reviewers to act cynical
14:57:06 <itidus21> everyone wins
14:57:15 <atriq> I was thinking, Level 5 studios would be good to make the Homestuck game
14:57:24 <atriq> And so would Maxis, for completely different reasons
14:57:48 <itidus21> or CERN
14:58:05 <atriq> I...
14:58:20 <atriq> I don't think CERN is particularly famous for its video game development skills
14:58:41 <itidus21> well, many companies shifted to video games from other fields
14:59:16 <atriq> From being an international not-for-profit experimental physics organization?
15:00:18 <itidus21> what better way to recreate the homestuck universe than to let anonymous teenagers interact with LHC
15:01:23 <atriq> And by the way
15:01:30 <atriq> When I said Level 5 I meant 5th Cell
15:02:22 <itidus21> im being defensive again about homestuck.. that thing seriously freaks me out
15:02:42 <atriq> Have...
15:02:49 <atriq> Have you tried reading "Problem Sleuth"?
15:02:53 <atriq> It seems like your cup of tea
15:06:23 <itidus21> japan has mech robots which turn into spaceships and carry samurai swords, usa has homestuck
15:06:46 <itidus21> australia has steve irwin
15:07:59 <itidus21> i think they are all ways of venting culturally something inexplicable
15:08:15 <atriq> http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=4
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15:26:11 <kmc> <itidus21> australia has steve irwin
15:26:12 <kmc> not anymore
15:47:40 <asiekierka> http://asia.cnet.com/goophone-i5-manufacturers-want-to-sue-apple-when-iphone-launches-62218590.htm
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16:34:12 <itidus21> my psychologist is right
16:34:26 <itidus21> event happens "light out in the kitchen"
16:34:55 <itidus21> i think about it and presume my brother turned it off
16:35:31 <itidus21> infact, when my mom asks me to change the light i learn i was acting delusionally
16:43:21 <itidus21> nevermind
16:43:39 <itidus21> that sounded a lot weirder when i said it
16:50:52 <fizzie> I don't know, that does sound pretty weird.
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16:52:15 <itidus21> yeah i mean when i said it here
16:52:25 <itidus21> i just said it and you just read it
16:53:53 <fizzie> "submarine sandwich" is a weird term.
16:54:02 <fizzie> As a "sub" it doesn't sound so weird.
16:54:35 <atriq> http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217130_3530847072634_1433380748_n.jpg
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17:36:27 <Arc_Koen> hey zzo38
17:36:37 <Arc_Koen> I've started writing an interpreter for IINC
17:38:21 <zzo38> OK
17:41:58 <Arc_Koen> I was wondering why the mingle thing, though
17:42:07 <zzo38> I do not remember.
17:46:19 <Arc_Koen> ok that was very instructive :) bye
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18:18:18 <Sgeo> <chouser> That is, I would recommend against (-> 5 (< 10) (if "whoa"))
18:18:25 <Sgeo> I have to say that that is an amusing example
18:26:07 <Sgeo> https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
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18:44:08 <itidus21> an idea has struck me.. supposing if a large group of software companies got together and dedicated themselves to producing software which didn't violate any patents
18:44:49 <itidus21> between them harnessing the capacity to challenge any patent which won't hold up
18:45:36 <AnotherTest> What would be the advantage for the companies involved?
18:45:45 <AnotherTest> They wouldn't be able to sell any patents
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18:46:22 <itidus21> they could be unfettered by what for a lack of a better word i would call immoral patents
18:46:55 <AnotherTest> In a capitalist system, people mainly care about money ;)
18:47:14 <zzo38> I am one of those companies (not yet created properly), but not only software; also hardware.
18:47:21 <itidus21> i don't know what such an immoral/unethical patent would be........
18:47:37 <zzo38> I would wish to join such a group
18:47:42 <zzo38> of companies
18:47:49 <itidus21> ok well the fundamental question is this
18:48:04 <itidus21> if you had sufficient funds could you overturn the amazon 1-click patent?
18:48:12 <AnotherTest> itidus21: You said earlier that you think the current patenting system is fine. Why are you still trying to improve now :p?
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18:48:30 <AnotherTest> itidus21: You could buy it from them perhaps.
18:48:43 <itidus21> hmm
18:48:47 <itidus21> i mean, could you invalidate it?
18:49:04 <zzo38> I don't like the current patenting system. If I had sufficient funds I would buy their patents and then immediately abandon them to the public domain.
18:49:41 <AnotherTest> itidus21: Maybe, if you hired an army of lawyers. Although Amazon has one too I believe.
18:50:04 <itidus21> on the grounds that adding constraints to the effects of a mouse click isn't a method
18:50:28 <AnotherTest> itidus21: something like that, but it would still be very hard
18:50:39 <itidus21> the device is a mouse, it clicks
18:50:46 <AnotherTest> Well, the human clicks
18:50:58 <AnotherTest> /with/ the mouse
18:51:01 <zzo38> Invalidating it is an idea, but would it be less expensive to purchase it from them and then invalidate it yourself?
18:51:29 <AnotherTest> zzo38: Unless they are unwilling to sell it whatsoever.
18:51:31 <itidus21> the fact that that click results in a procedure completing automatically seems fairly invalid :D
18:51:51 <itidus21> zzo38: oh, i see
18:51:58 <itidus21> if you own a patent you can invalidate it?
18:52:16 <itidus21> lmao... fascinating
18:52:27 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, in that case, you have no choice, I suppose.
18:52:27 <itidus21> im so dumb
18:52:30 <AnotherTest> itidus21: Yes; how does that surprise you?
18:52:45 <zzo38> itidus21: I would guess you can invalidate a patent you own more easily, I think.
18:52:45 <itidus21> im no lawyer, im sure the argument i just made would fail
18:52:49 <AnotherTest> itidus21: note that was not a reply to your last message..
18:53:43 <itidus21> well... i think that if enough patents were invalidated the motivation to patent things might decrease
18:54:56 <itidus21> whereas, if you bought the patents in order to invalidate them that would be a motivation to patent things
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18:55:18 <AnotherTest> Not necessarily
18:55:32 <AnotherTest> sometimes you can earn more money from a patent by not selling it
18:55:55 <AnotherTest> (and by instead selling the product the patent allows/is)
18:56:20 <zzo38> Sometimes you won't actually know how much money you will earn properly
18:56:34 <AnotherTest> ^ most of the time
18:57:30 <itidus21> patents are confusing.
18:57:52 <zzo38> AnotherTest: But what if they sell the patent, including an agreement that says that the company that sold the patent is still allowed to sell those products? And then you invalidate the patent, making the agreement useless since it is already true anyways.
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18:58:32 <itidus21> they are a symbol of corporate power.. i guess i should just accept that corporations are powerful and let it be
19:00:52 <zzo38> When I make the company I don't patent anything.
19:01:27 <itidus21> i need to think more before i post so that i can make some sense
19:01:29 <zzo38> If I have enough money I would try to invalidate all patents, purchasing them first if necessary.
19:03:00 -!- MoALTz has joined.
19:03:52 <itidus21> apparently computer icons can be patented
19:05:44 <itidus21> also animated icons
19:06:30 <zzo38> They probably can be trademarks, though, regardless of if they can be patented or not.
19:06:50 <zzo38> Patent office does wrong thing always.
19:15:29 <itidus21> of the form "Claims: The ornamental design for an icon for a display screen, as shown and described."
19:15:35 <itidus21> :P
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19:17:48 <itidus21> part of the fun is they're all in monochrome
19:17:58 <itidus21> at least the ones i can see
19:18:06 <itidus21> but i suppose in practice is that doesn't matter
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19:19:38 <itidus21> infact it appears all the big companies, microsoft, apple, xerox, motorola have applied for icon design patents
19:21:12 <itidus21> oh.. they get around the color thing
19:21:48 <itidus21> "FIG 2 depicts second embodiment of an icon for a display screen where the background is lined to indicate the color blue "
19:21:59 <itidus21> ^_^
19:22:50 <zzo38> Wouldn't trademarks be easier?
19:26:48 <itidus21> and this one is a patent for a font that looks vaguely like wingdings
19:28:04 <itidus21> ok enough of that
19:31:34 <FireFly> Speaking of silly patents, I presume http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#IntegerAbs is well-known in here already
19:31:55 <FireFly> If not, well.. there you go
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19:35:03 <zzo38> Well, there is the non-patented version and the patented one, and anyways it is likely invalid, is they said.
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20:20:31 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages? <-- it certainly updated immediately when i changed things yesterday
20:20:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:25:14 <Sgeo> (-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) => '[(3 2 1) (5 3 7) (9 4 3)]
20:25:41 <oerjan> what language is that?
20:25:50 <Sgeo> Clojure
20:26:03 <Sgeo> Using a macro in https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
20:27:46 <oerjan> <atriq> http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217130_3530847072634_1433380748_n.jpg <-- XD
20:28:06 <atriq> :)
20:28:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: I HAVE NOW | Official channel of PEZ | PEZ is the best candy. Why have you abandoned PEZ? | Do not fret, PEZ can forgive you. Give yourself freely to PEZ. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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20:32:48 <zzo38> Please notify me of any of the following in the RogueVM specification: * Vague or unclear statements * Mistakes (including typographical errors) * Things you fail to understand about this virtual machine * Things that you think are not designed very well and could be improved
20:33:06 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:33:13 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
20:34:33 <zzo38> * Complaints
20:36:36 <Sgeo> Where's the RogueVM spec, and what is RogueVM? I'm interested now
20:36:53 <Sgeo> I know you've been talking about it, but I haven't payed much attention before
20:37:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: I posted here before, but OK I will repeat if you needed it: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.dvi
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20:38:07 <Sgeo> :( I'd like a nice HTML page that my browser doesn't feel a need to store in my Downloads directory but is willing to display directly
20:38:19 <zzo38> view-source:http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex
20:38:39 <zzo38> It isn't HTML, but it should display it directly.
20:38:42 <Sgeo> Maybe my browser's just being annoying
20:39:07 <Sgeo> It's very much not working :(
20:39:48 <Sgeo> I'm just going to imagine that RogueVM is a VM for creating roguelike games using a higher-level language targetted at the VM
20:39:50 <nortti> what is yoir browser?
20:39:56 <Sgeo> Chrome
20:39:56 <zzo38> Best would be to just download it on command-line instead of using a browser.
20:40:11 <Sgeo> Oh here we go, they got downloaded
20:40:26 <Sgeo> And I have Yap installed on here for some reason, so the .dvi seems like it will work
20:40:27 <nortti> speaking of browsers you should try konqueror
20:40:48 <Sgeo> Oh hey, I was right
20:40:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, you need Computer Modern fonts too, but if you have Yap then you probably have those too.
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20:42:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes it is VM for creating roguelike games using a higher-level language targetted at the VM. (It can be used for some other games too, I suppose, though.)
20:42:44 <Sgeo> Oh hey Phantom_Hoover
20:42:48 <Sgeo> (-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) => '[(3 2 1) (5 3 7) (9 4 3)]
20:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> hello
20:43:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, why are you using ASCII?
20:44:18 <nortti> why not?
20:44:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why not?
20:44:41 <Sgeo> Saying the game title is in UTF-8 would allow for games with more international names
20:44:42 <zzo38> It is better than EBCDIC.
20:45:02 <nortti> zzo38: actually you should use PETSCII
20:45:12 <sHACHAF> You should try UTF-1.
20:45:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: You could assign one of the custom metadata fields for UTF-8 title. However some computers might be ASCII-only which is why it uses that.
20:45:38 <nortti> sHACHAF: the real one or my one?
20:45:54 <sHACHAF> The real one. :-(
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20:46:23 <nortti> my one with unary representation is better
20:46:30 * Sgeo wonders if a RogueVM interpreter in Clojure would be a sane thing to make
20:46:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try if you want to! (But you don't have to.)
20:47:12 <zzo38> First it would be good idea correct the specification ensure it is not mistake.
20:49:09 <zzo38> If you wish to assign any of the ETC/8000xxxx file numbers, notify me what you would like I can list them in the document for that purpose. Please note all are optional both by the compiler and by the interpreter!!
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20:49:54 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, are you the new me?
20:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm the new everyone.
20:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Whether I'm the new you particularly, who knows.
20:50:53 <atriq> <Phantom_Hoover> hello
20:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Uh I was doing that before it was cool.
20:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I think.
20:51:35 <atriq> Oh, okay
20:51:38 <atriq> Would...
20:51:43 <atriq> Would you like to be the new me?
20:51:53 <Sgeo> I wonder how difficult it would be to port existing roguelikes to RogueVM
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20:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, depends, remind me if that youth parliament thing comes with any actual power or influence.
20:53:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: Some have features which are deliberately unsupported in RogueVM. For example ADOM (which no source-codes available anyways), having to do with the slot machines and the bug cave.
20:53:42 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, none at all
20:53:45 <atriq> But that's the old me
20:53:51 <atriq> When I was unironically cool
20:53:56 <Sgeo> slot machines? bug cave?
20:53:59 <atriq> ie, not cool at all
20:54:07 <Sgeo> I haven't played ADOM
20:54:09 <sHACHAF> Now you're ironically uncool?
20:55:17 <zzo38> For the slot machines if you hold down the space-bar it does not waste a turn to activate the slot machine a second time. For bug cave, you have to have played the game a certain number of times before they will let you in. These things are relatively minor, so a similar game could be implemented where these two rules are not used.
20:55:27 <atriq> sHACHAF, now I'm just being me
20:55:30 <atriq> And all that entails
20:55:41 <atriq> I go on IRC, I go to Homestuck meet-ups
20:55:44 <atriq> I badly program
20:56:14 <atriq> I reblog things on tumblr
20:56:16 <Sgeo> RogueVM has a SEX instruction. I am immaturely amused.
20:56:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is short for "sign extend".
21:09:29 <fizzie> There are Homestuck meet-ups? (In retrospect, I suppose that's kind of predictable.)
21:09:35 <atriq> Yes
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21:10:41 <atriq> It's popular among teenage people with no otherwise social life
21:10:43 <oerjan> @read '\2026'
21:10:43 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
21:10:48 <oerjan> @read "\2026"
21:10:49 <lambdabot>
21:11:05 <oerjan> no, lambdabot, that is not how utf-8 works.
21:12:19 <kmc> what did she do?
21:12:38 <oerjan> i assume she truncated the character to latin-1
21:12:48 <oerjan> > showHex 2026 ""
21:12:49 <lambdabot> "7ea"
21:12:53 <kmc> oh, yeah, that's not the right character :(
21:12:57 <itidus21> atriq: people stuck at home?
21:13:00 <oerjan> > "\xea"
21:13:01 <lambdabot> "\234"
21:13:06 <atriq> itidus21, indeed
21:13:08 <kmc> > text "\xea"
21:13:09 <oerjan> @read "\xea"
21:13:09 <lambdabot>
21:13:09 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
21:13:19 <kmc> damn it, even in the future nothing works
21:13:28 <sHACHAF> You should write a lambdabot replacement!
21:13:31 <kmc> no
21:13:37 <sHACHAF> True.
21:13:43 <kmc> glad you agree
21:13:47 <sHACHAF> Anyway it's not the future anymore.
21:14:31 <oerjan> > test "\2026"
21:14:32 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `test'
21:14:32 <itidus21> is it the post-future?
21:14:36 <oerjan> > text "\2026"
21:14:37 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
21:14:46 <oerjan> > show $ text "\2026"
21:14:47 <lambdabot> "\2026"
21:15:00 <oerjan> huh
21:15:11 <oerjan> oh right
21:15:41 <sHACHAF> @@ @where test (@where+ test ߪ)
21:15:41 <lambdabot> ߪ
21:15:47 <oerjan> i am actually just trying to find a way to get the utf-8 bytes of it
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21:16:21 <oerjan> oh hm
21:16:28 <oerjan> > "…"
21:16:29 <lambdabot> "\8230"
21:16:33 <oerjan> wat
21:16:54 <itidus21> > "..."
21:16:55 <oerjan> > 0x2026
21:16:55 <lambdabot> "..."
21:16:56 <lambdabot> can't find file: L.hs
21:17:02 <oerjan> > 0x2026
21:17:03 <sHACHAF> oerjan: "\2026" is in decimal.
21:17:03 <lambdabot> 8230
21:17:07 <oerjan> aha!
21:17:35 <oerjan> sHACHAF: no, it's actually hex, as i discovered when i found the actual character to paste :P
21:17:59 <oerjan> or well you meant the \ notation
21:18:00 <sHACHAF> oerjan: No, it's definitely decimal.
21:18:28 <sHACHAF> "\x2026", which is what you wanted, is in hexadecimal.
21:19:01 <oerjan> sHACHAF: yes, but i didn't actually know that was what i wanted, because i thought the 2026 i found on the wiki was decimal
21:19:38 <oerjan> ^asc …
21:19:39 <fungot> 226.
21:20:10 <fizzie> ^ord …
21:20:11 <fungot> 226 128 166
21:20:16 <oerjan> oh right
21:20:25 <oerjan> ok so it is 3 bytes, anyway.
21:21:53 <fizzie> Anything that needs four hex digits, is. (Technically from U+0800 to U+FFFF.)
21:22:23 <sHACHAF> Isn't it great how 4+6+6 is 16?
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21:23:02 <fizzie> But 5+6 is only 11. :/
21:23:35 <sHACHAF> What should it be instead?
21:24:22 <fizzie> I don't know; if it were 12, it'd be easy to deduce the number of bytes from the number of hex digits.
21:24:45 <fizzie> At least 3+3*6 is exactly the necessary 21.
21:24:56 <fizzie> (Intelligent design at work?)
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21:28:47 * oerjan realizes he should just go read how UTF-8 actually works :P
21:33:28 <itidus21> i think noone knows how UTF-8 works
21:33:41 * oerjan swats itidus21 -----###
21:34:13 <oerjan> it's actually quite simple. i just don't know the actual _details_.
21:34:48 <zzo38> I have added two instructions: ADD2C and SUB2C.
21:35:54 <oerjan> enough to convert codepoints to it in my head, that is.
21:37:11 <sHACHAF> oerjan: Did you figure out how UTF-8 works yet?
21:38:51 <oerjan> no i'm reading the history section first
21:39:11 <sHACHAF> oerjan: If the high bit is 0 it's just a codepoint <128. If it's 1, the first octet indicates how many there are by having that many 1s and then a 0. So 110xxxxx/1110xxxx/11110xxx
21:39:24 <sHACHAF> Then the rest of the octets are of the form 10xxxxxx.
21:39:30 <sHACHAF> And you put all the xs together.
21:39:53 <oerjan> you realize that was the table on top of the next section, right?
21:40:27 <sHACHAF> Since when do *I* want to encourage the attitude of figuring things out for yourself?
21:40:40 <sHACHAF> I'd much rather spoonfeed people on IRC by typing in by hand things that they can find for themselves on the INternet.
21:41:24 <oerjan> i note that the table seems to stop at 6 bytes although only 4 are used in real UTF-8 while the scheme _could_ work up to 8...
21:42:02 <oerjan> maybe that's arbitrary, or maybe it will be explained later.
21:42:23 <sHACHAF> Unicode is defined to take 21 bits.
21:42:31 <sHACHAF> Well, less than 21 bits, actually.
21:42:37 <sHACHAF> That's so you can encode it with UTF-16.
21:43:32 <oerjan> i note new characters are assigned all the time. what's the estimated time until they manage to fill that up?
21:45:25 <sHACHAF> > 0x10FFFF
21:45:26 <lambdabot> 1114111
21:45:32 <sHACHAF> A while.
21:45:39 <oerjan> OKAY
21:45:57 <itidus21> oerjan: but nothing to stop them making a utf-8-ii
21:46:37 <oerjan> itidus21: right but you'd think they'd learn from the y2k and ipv4 trouble...
21:46:52 <oerjan> but i guess that hadn't actually happened by then
21:47:30 <kmc> the rate of inventing new languages is somewhat lower than the rate of new IP hosts coming online
21:47:36 <oerjan> itidus21: btw the utf-8 part is really fine, as i said the scheme looks extensible up to 8 bytes
21:47:37 <kmc> they might be in trouble if they continue this emoji thing
21:47:47 <oerjan> kmc: yes but emoticons man...
21:47:54 <oerjan> oh that's what you said
21:49:32 <itidus21> at some point in the future i expect interactive emoticons
21:49:42 <itidus21> but i havent figured out exactly how that will work
21:50:10 <zzo38> Is there an implementation of Chris Pressey's Full Moon Fever for Synchronet?
21:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't expect them, I demand them.
21:51:02 <oerjan> in fact it wouldn't be too hard to extend the scheme to arbitrary bytes, just say the length mark 0 can just flow into x'es in the next bytes.
21:51:48 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: ok heres one.. an emoticon which is the backface of a card. and if anyone clicks on it, it flips over for everyone
21:52:11 <itidus21> a variant could be a die which gets rolled if clicked upon
21:52:25 <Phantom_Hoover> an emoticon that responds to your inputs, you must keep it happy or it will commit suicide
21:52:56 <oerjan> emogothci
21:53:00 <oerjan> *ch
21:53:30 <itidus21> its funny how when chatting to others about something good ideas come more readily
21:53:53 <oerjan> itidus21: your idea is obviously possible already with some javascript.
21:54:18 <oerjan> and everyone connecting to a common game server
21:54:21 <itidus21> well my past ideas involved guns
21:54:27 <itidus21> and they all sucked
21:54:35 <itidus21> but this idea, this has merit
21:54:46 <oerjan> it's easier to survive, i guess
21:55:52 <itidus21> maybe it would be something like {img:a.png,onclick:img=b.png}
21:56:24 <oerjan> itidus21: as i said, there is already javascript for achieving it, just a little more verbose.
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21:56:56 <itidus21> well i have used yahoo chat a long time unlike irc so i am used to animated colour smileys
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21:57:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Linearly extrapolating from Unicode 1 (7161 characters, October 1991) to Unicode 6 (109449 characters, October 2010) means they'll fill it in 184 or so years. (I've gratituously ignored Unicode 6.1 of January 2012, which seems to show they're not really keeping up.)
21:57:54 <oerjan> oh so it's slowed down?
21:58:25 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Versions has a table.
21:58:33 <itidus21> oerjan: the challenge is to keep it in the context of a scrolling chat, rather than a virtual environment
21:58:44 <fizzie> I'd plot it if I knew how to type it up in W|A.
21:58:53 <itidus21> which your javascript comment would make possible as you say
21:59:02 <zzo38> Then use your own software instead of W|A
21:59:32 <oerjan> zzo38 is always so reasonable.
21:59:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did you find anything in the RogueVM document, which you have question or require changed?
22:00:09 <fizzie> I'd use gnuplot, but its settings to use "time" data are crummy.
22:00:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, I kind of got bored, to be honest
22:01:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Then try something else
22:02:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, well, you did not even write any messages on here past then until now, so I didn't know. Tell someone else if they would know better.
22:05:49 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/unicode.png
22:05:50 -!- augur has joined.
22:06:17 <fizzie> It should have version number labels at each point and so on.
22:06:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:07:57 <oerjan> oh it stopped at 6 bytes because of an earlier larger limit
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22:09:39 <fizzie> Yes, early ISO 10646 had 31 bits.
22:10:19 <fizzie> I saw a mention of the "groups" (256 planes form one) somewhere.
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