←2012-10-11 2012-10-12 2012-10-13→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:29:16 <elliott> monqy: hello
00:29:26 <monqy> i beat you to the punch this time
00:29:33 <elliott> monqy: 2 fast 2 monqy
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01:04:33 <zzo38> Does this Haskell type meaningful anything to you (I wrote it while trying to figure out something else): (forall y. forall z r. (x -> Cont r z) -> Cont r ((z -> x') -> y)) -> y)
01:05:44 <Sgeo> Oh hey itidus was here
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01:30:25 <zzo38> The control schemes I like for platform games are using the shift keys to move, space to jump, and any of Z X C V B N M , . / to shoot.
01:30:43 <zzo38> However I know only of a few games implementing this.
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02:01:08 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/bFXM6.jpg
02:04:28 <shachaf> zzo38: That's not good because you might accidentally press both Shift keys at the same time.
02:04:33 <shachaf> Then it'll change your keyboard layout.
02:22:05 <zzo38> shachaf: It was a DOS program so it didn't do that, and anyways it won't change the keyboard layout if you don't have it configured like that
02:25:10 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to slap library writers who don't understand the most advertised feature of the language they're writing a library in?
02:25:19 <Sgeo> Incanter uses STM, but uses it wrongly.
02:25:29 <pikhq> Do tell? And, yes.
02:27:45 <Sgeo> The defop function in incanter.infix alters several refs, but each alteration is in its own dosync block
02:27:56 <Sgeo> https://github.com/liebke/incanter/blob/master/modules/incanter-core/src/incanter/infix.clj#L42
02:28:15 <Sgeo> If there are several ... hold on, I have deja vu
02:28:18 <kmc> and you're sure they intended for it to be atomic?
02:28:33 <Sgeo> I don't know if they intended for it to be anything
02:28:59 <shachaf> déjà
02:29:47 <Sgeo> Hmm, when I was reading it before, I thought there could be a negative consequence, but looking at it now, I don't think so
02:30:36 <kmc> it seems like more transactions might have higher overhead and lower uncontended throughput, but fewer big transactions might have more likelihood of livelock
02:30:45 <kmc> that's just a vague guess
02:30:57 <kmc> also it might not be correct for Clojure because their STM implementation is not lockless
02:32:11 <Sgeo> Even if that last dosync runs later, it's still finding the highest value in the precedence table and putting it in highest precedence
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02:53:37 <zzo38> My team has 24 winning streak so far.
02:54:17 <shachaf> My team has 25 winning streak.
02:54:25 <shachaf> I think I win this one, zzo38.
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02:56:10 <zzo38> Regardless of winning streak you might win or lose.
02:56:21 <shachaf> My team is "heads".
02:56:23 <zzo38> I beat someone with more winning streak than I have.
02:56:51 <shachaf> Did you cheat?
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03:00:41 <zzo38> No.
03:01:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you play Zork Zero?
03:02:49 <zzo38> No.
03:03:27 <shachaf> zzo38: That's a good game.
03:03:30 <shachaf> You should play it!
03:03:56 <Sgeo> Hmm.
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03:05:43 <quintopia> you should play trial of the clone
03:10:44 <Sgeo> Wait, Chrome just goes ahead and downloads a .exe but warns me that .jars can harm my computer?
03:11:48 <zzo38> Perhaps you did not configure it?
03:12:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you play Double Fanucci?
03:12:52 <zzo38> I don't have any cards to play Double Fanucci.
03:12:59 <shachaf> What about in the computer?
03:13:38 <zzo38> No.
03:14:21 <Sgeo> Eww, the Incanter executable ships with Clojure 1.2
03:37:50 <zzo38> This sentence claims to be an Epimenides Paradox, but it is lying.
03:51:00 <kmc> zzo38: I don't believe you
03:52:28 <zzo38> Neither do I.
03:52:41 <zzo38> I don't believe me either!
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04:26:52 <monqy> hello elliott
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04:28:34 <shachaf> hello monqy
04:28:40 <shachaf> i am elliotts
04:29:53 <monqy> o
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04:32:33 <elliott> monqy: hi
04:32:34 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:32:35 <elliott> help
04:32:59 <shachaf> @ask elliott what did the message say
04:33:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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04:49:20 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Agda/latest/doc/html/src/Agda-Auto-Auto.html#auto
04:50:17 <pikhq> Hmm. National Coming Out Day. *shrug* Guess I'll use the last hour of it to say "I'm bi", though I think I might have said that previously here?
04:50:20 <pikhq> Feh, not that it matters.
04:50:27 <pikhq> No real IRC sexytimes here.
04:50:34 <pikhq> Maybe some rape of the brain.
04:50:46 <shachaf> pikhq: I didn't know you were a functor.
04:50:53 <pikhq> shachaf: Smartass.
04:52:50 <zzo38> My Dungeons&Dragons player has played Double Fanucci, though, but lost five perica (a form of currency in the Japanese manga "Kaiji", used by underground slave colony, worth one tenth of one yen) at it.
04:54:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Did you know if you were a functor?
04:54:27 <zzo38> Is it a endofunctor?
04:55:10 <pikhq> Glad to see everyone here has appropriate levels of apathy about sexuality.
04:59:35 <Sgeo> Agda.Utils.Impossible
05:01:09 <kmc> hey all our brainfucking is strictly consensual
05:01:16 <kmc> brainfucking and brickbraining too
05:01:53 <pikhq> Malbolge touched me in naughty places
05:02:01 <kmc> malbolge is kinky
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05:04:07 <zzo38> Astronomical twilight is of importance in this Dungeons&Dragons game now.
05:08:36 <zzo38> To win this game, we have to take advantage of everything, including the phase of the moon.
05:14:51 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/11cmsi/paul_ryan_admits_romney_win_would_lead_to_world/ if I ever needed any proof that Democrats can sensationalize things too
05:15:47 <pikhq> But everyone knows $other is evil, and $us is good!
05:16:07 <pikhq> And that's why I should be supreme overlord of everything.
05:16:16 <pikhq> I am your overlord!
05:20:47 <zzo38> I think there should be no supreme overlord of everything. But maybe some thing, OK
05:21:42 <pikhq> "There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual."
05:21:52 <pikhq> Christian Science is weirder than I thought.
05:22:10 <Bike> that's weird?
05:22:22 <zzo38> How is that Christian or science?
05:22:44 <pikhq> Beats me, but that's Christian Science for you.
05:24:04 <pikhq> Bike: Given that it suggests that *matter* is not *real*? Yeah, that's weird.
05:24:33 <Bike> it's just platonism.
05:25:35 <pikhq> Most religious folk go for dualism. Y'know, where minds are magic.
05:26:16 <Bike> or "spirits", here.
05:26:54 <pikhq> Eh.
05:29:56 <pikhq> Point is, it's gibberish that's either false or devoid of meaning, and I find it deserving of mockery.
05:30:21 * Sgeo finds anything that tells people to reject modern medicine as deserving of utmost hatred.
05:30:45 <Bike> oh, go for it. I just meant that it's old and venerable
05:31:04 <pikhq> That Plato came up with it first doesn't mean shit. :)
05:31:11 <Bike> quite.
05:31:22 <pikhq> Only silly people think Plato was actually right about everything.
05:31:50 <pikhq> He just managed to think about things before a lot of other people is all, really.
05:35:03 <zzo38> Some people are monism other are dualism, but my opinion is I think monism and dualism are both wrong.
05:35:56 <pikhq> What do you think is right?
05:38:06 <zzo38> I think the mind, matter, are one with the universe, so really everything is one with the universe, however, the universe itself is just mathematics, which includes things other than those which might be physical. All is mathematics. However, even the universe may be exist just because people observe, and yet the people exist because is part of universe, it is something like a causality loop.
05:39:19 <zzo38> Of course this is just philosophy, including of metaphysics and stuff like that, not reality. However, it is my opinion based on what I know about physics.
05:40:08 <oklofok> i think there's a bit turtle whose poop is planets
05:40:13 <oklofok> *big
05:42:33 <zzo38> Because if nothing exists, then something might exist there is nothing to make nothing to exist! As someone has said, they couldn't decide whether nothing or something to exist, so they decided to toss a coin. But to toss a coin, it has to exist, so the choice is already made for them. Something exists because something is a cheater. Of course this is all metaphorical, but the point stands.
05:44:02 <zzo38> This recording of the Dungeons&Dragons game (I have typed out the Oct.9 session today) contains footnotes such as "Why does Kjugobe's note have a reference to a footnote in this book?"
05:44:17 <pikhq> zzo38: That sounds essentially like philosophical materialism, combined with the idea that the universe is a lawful place, combined with the idea that the simulation hypothesis is valid, and the idea that that simulation doesn't really need to be *run* for the universe to exist in some sense.
05:44:29 <pikhq> ... Bit of a conjugation of ideas there, but eh
05:45:44 <zzo38> I think it is not a simulation, but mathematics. Some mathematics may be uncomputable. In addition, some equations may have multiple solutions or no solution. And then, there are even more complexities than this. It doesn't necessarily all correspond to physical objects, even though all is the same mathematics.
05:45:59 <zzo38> So they are the same as the ones that do.
05:46:28 <pikhq> So, let's sum that up a bit more cleanly.
05:46:49 <pikhq> "The universe can be expressed mathematically."
05:46:54 <zzo38> Yes.
05:47:11 <pikhq> That's... Basically materialism, isn't it/
05:47:12 <pikhq> ?
05:48:00 <zzo38> I think it is like materialism but my ideas have some differences and more things too. But I don't know "materialism" exactly.
05:48:52 <pikhq> "Materialism" in the modern sense is more-or-less "All that is, is physics."
05:49:06 <zzo38> OK
05:49:19 <pikhq> (there's technically other sorts, but that's the sort most people really care about)
05:49:49 <pikhq> s/most people/most people who discuss ontology/ :P
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09:23:49 <ais523> so, randomly-walking brainfuck
09:24:03 <ais523> I think that it's TC given arbitrary control flow (conditional goto is enough)
09:24:13 <ais523> but it seems very difficult to convert that to [] loops
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10:47:25 <fizzie> Messy.
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10:47:32 <ais523> fizzie: through a NAT and the University's firewall?
10:47:32 <fizzie> ais523: It's what all the popups say.
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10:47:32 <ais523> computers always send their IP whenever they contact anything, unless you spoof it (in which case you don't get a reply)
10:47:32 <ais523> although "broadcast" is a little different
10:47:32 <fizzie> BROADCASTING an IP ADDRESS and HACKING, I tell you.
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10:47:32 <fizzie> That's better.
10:47:32 <ais523> btw, both freenode and synirc were netsplitted at the same time
10:47:32 <ais523> I wonder if it was for the same reason?
10:48:37 <fizzie> That's funny, IRCnet was slightly, too.
10:49:12 <fizzie> At least approximately at the same time; maybe it was slightly earlier.
10:49:14 <fizzie> 13:38 -!- Netsplit *.pl <-> ircnet.eversible.com
10:49:33 <fizzie> Eversible is somewhere in the states (united), I believe.
10:50:01 <fizzie> fungot: You awake? I think you're connected to some us server too, right?
10:50:02 <fungot> fizzie: i think she turned around but why? can i spend my time solving different kinds of numbers. i do. see: fnord/ fnord
10:50:30 <fizzie> Solving different kinds of numbers sounds like a reasonable hobby for a computer program.
10:51:33 <ais523> yes
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11:12:38 <fizzie> Ah ha, more splittery on the IRCnet side.
11:12:46 <fizzie> Someone must have it against IRC networks today.
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13:51:19 <ion> http://austriantimes.at/news/Around_the_World/2012-10-10/44722/Holy_Shit
15:06:52 <kmc> always amusing when a food is labeled "96% fat free"
15:06:58 <kmc> sounds better than "4% fat"
15:07:47 <ion> heh
15:08:34 <shachaf> It means you're only paying for 4% of the fat.
15:08:40 <shachaf> The rest is subsidized by the non-fat.
15:08:43 <kmc> what a deal
15:10:04 <shachaf> elliott: @shachaf, I assume that you were referring to my answer (correct me if I am wrong). Yes it does copy the array first and then does the in-place shuffle, however, fixing this is simply exchanging thaw with unsafethaw
15:12:55 <elliott> shachaf: If the implicit question is whether HaskellElephant ever says anything that makes sense, the answer is no.
15:13:37 <shachaf> Who's that?
15:14:25 <elliott> Come on, you literally just quoted them.
15:14:43 <shachaf> Yes, but in the grander scheme.
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15:19:10 <elliott> Some person who posts bad Haskell questions on SO.
15:19:12 <elliott> shachaf: I like ilango's answer.
15:19:19 <elliott> I like it so much I'm going to click the "delete" button on it.
15:19:45 <shachaf> You have magical delete powers?
15:20:52 <elliott> yes.
15:21:01 <elliott> Needs two more votes to make it happen though.
15:21:12 <elliott> *Yes.
15:21:38 <shachaf> elliott: Memorized any good codepoints lately?
15:22:01 <elliott> None.
15:23:06 <shachaf> I woke up before 08:00 today.
15:23:09 <shachaf> It's ridiculous.
15:31:21 <elliott> I don't do that.
15:31:54 <shachaf> Ridicule?
15:33:18 <elliott> Wake up.
15:33:33 <shachaf> I am awake. :-(
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15:35:33 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:35:38 <atriq> Hey
15:35:43 <atriq> I also just got here
16:20:16 <Sgeo> Is the HHGG TV series better than the movie?
16:21:46 <olsner> is there a new tv series to go with the recent(ish?) movie, an old movie to go with the old tv series, or neither?
16:22:27 <Sgeo> neither
16:22:47 <olsner> ok, then I don't know because I haven't seen the tv series
16:23:05 <olsner> but I think the movie can be watched in HD, so it must be better
16:27:47 <Sgeo> The acting's a bit iffy
16:27:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMoi-nDd6cQ
16:28:52 <elliott> the bbc h2g2 series is good
16:29:43 <Sgeo> That's what I linked I think?
16:31:36 <elliott> i think so too
16:32:10 <Sgeo> I still think the acting's iffy
16:33:49 <elliott> i don't remember anything about it, only that it was good
16:34:09 <olsner> I think I like the book the best
16:40:20 <Sgeo> I should probably buy And Another Thing at some point
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16:56:50 <Sgeo> I think the reason I'm not laughing that much is because I pretty much know all the jokes
16:57:17 <FreeFull> I bet there are plenty of new kinds of joke that would make you laugh
17:09:25 <Arc_Koen> do you know that joke about the people who knew all the jokes?
17:10:12 <Arc_Koen> there's a village somewhere where everyone knows all the jokes
17:10:42 <Arc_Koen> in the local pub, occasionally someone exlaims "joke #46!"
17:10:55 <Arc_Koen> and everyone would burst out laughing
17:11:19 <Arc_Koen> but one day, a guy exclaims "joke #32!"
17:11:24 <Arc_Koen> and nobody laughs
17:11:41 <Arc_Koen> so that guy says "yeah, I've never known how to tell that joke."
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17:22:12 <zzo38> Try a number that is not in range
17:23:30 <Arc_Koen> yeah that's a classic
17:23:43 <Arc_Koen> they called it #67
17:25:14 <Gregor> And the fact that there were only 52 jokes when they declared that one #67 is, itself, #53.
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17:38:48 <zzo38> I mean something other than a positive integer.
17:39:11 <atriq> I wonder if Bill Bryson reads Homestuck
17:39:24 <shachaf> zzo38: What if you try an unnameable real number?
17:40:32 <atriq> zzo38, if they tried a number that is not a natural number, they'd get confused by your surrealist humour
17:40:44 <atriq> 2+7i is a very complex joke
17:40:59 <atriq> -4 is a bit negative
17:44:16 <Gregor> (lim(x->infinity) 1/x) isn't very funny.
17:44:45 <Sgeo> fwiw, my original statement was in the context of knowing the jokes used in HHGG
17:45:20 <olsner> no-one respects context in here
17:46:20 <Sgeo> No wonder Smalltalk isn't very well used in here; everyone disrespects thisContext.
17:46:59 <elliott> hilarious Sgeo
17:47:11 <olsner> I don't do smalltalk
17:47:17 <elliott> Sgeo: ps what. who is bill bryson even.
17:47:24 <olsner> not Smalltalk either
17:47:31 <atriq> elliott, non fiction author who is currently in hexham
17:47:44 <kmc> why is bill bryson in hexham
17:47:50 <atriq> Beats me
17:47:51 <Sgeo> elliott, why are you asking me who Bill Bryson is?
17:47:59 <olsner> non-(fiction author who is currently in hexham)
17:48:06 <elliott> oh
17:48:07 <atriq> He is in Hexham for the single purpose of beating me
17:48:08 <elliott> atriq said it
17:48:14 <elliott> can you guys stop having nicks of the same length
17:48:21 <elliott> ok the same length give or take one
17:48:22 <Sgeo> 4==5
17:48:36 -!- atriq has changed nick to atriqWhoIsTanebA.
17:48:42 <elliott> atriqWhoIsTanebA: beating you at what
17:48:44 <olsner> hey, none of us has the same nick length as any other participant
17:48:49 <olsner> except them/ourselves
17:48:55 -!- atriqWhoIsTanebA has changed nick to atriq.
17:49:09 <atriq> elliott, other definition of "beating"
17:49:13 <Sgeo> If by participant you mean chatting person
17:49:21 <elliott> atriq: ok
17:49:23 <Sgeo> Because boily and augur have nicks length 5
17:49:32 <atriq> GUYS
17:49:34 <atriq> HEXHAM NEWS
17:49:34 <atriq> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/man-killed-by-falling-tree-1.1004001?referrerPath=news
17:49:35 <olsner> I was only counting everyone after the "who is bill bryson even" line
17:49:48 <shachaf> Wait, Hexham actually exists?
17:49:57 <atriq> Yeah
17:49:59 <olsner> shachaf: no it doesn't
17:50:01 <elliott> shachaf: no
17:50:06 <shachaf> `? hexham
17:50:09 <olsner> even imaginary places have newspapers duh
17:50:16 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
17:50:31 -!- boily has changed nick to not5nick.
17:50:33 <shachaf> What's a Taneb?
17:50:50 <atriq> A Taneb is kinda like an atriq, but younger
17:50:53 <Sgeo> `? boily
17:50:56 <HackEgo> boily may be French or something. We are not sure about the rest.
17:51:09 <not5nick> I'm not boily, because I don't have a 5-length nick :p
17:51:17 <elliott> so wait
17:51:23 <elliott> does everyone in the channel have a different nick length now
17:51:24 <elliott> that's spooky
17:51:27 * not5nick is not sure about the effectiveness of his subtle camouflage
17:51:31 <shachaf> hi elliott
17:51:39 <olsner> elliott: yes, everyone
17:51:53 <Sgeo> I can only assume that log is not an everyone.
17:51:54 <elliott> help
17:51:55 <Sgeo> clog
17:51:55 <shachaf> @quote
17:51:56 <lambdabot> JohnyBoy says: so have a nice goodspeed
17:51:59 <zzo38> But your username is given as "~boily" and I can see your NICK command above too
17:52:05 <elliott> nice quote
17:52:13 <not5nick> zzo38: darn! foiled!
17:52:18 <atriq> elliott and shachaf are the same length
17:52:20 <atriq> aaaah
17:52:31 <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
17:52:33 <atriq> This clearly means they are one and the same!
17:52:48 <shachaf> @quote
17:52:49 <lambdabot> null says: = true
17:52:50 <Sgeo> (swap! olsner inc)
17:53:00 <shachaf> @forget null = true
17:53:00 <lambdabot> Done.
17:53:03 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
17:53:03 <shachaf> @quote
17:53:04 <lambdabot> butt2 says: "I'd butt linux on the butt, I'd like to give buttad a try"
17:53:06 <HackEgo> 871) <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
17:53:08 <olsner> Sgeo: swap!?
17:53:09 <zzo38> atriq: Not only are "elliott" and "shachaf" the same length, but so are the usernames and cloaks
17:53:18 <atriq> Hence Hexham is in Finland, hence I'm in Finland!
17:53:22 <elliott> im shachaf
17:53:45 <zzo38> I released version 5 of FurryScript with a few bugfixes, and added documentation for some commands: RSC ALL GEN ARG TR TR- TRB TRB- REX REX- REX+ RNG LAH
17:53:55 <shachaf> elliott: no im shachaf!!!!!!
17:54:21 <Sgeo> olsner, Clojure. If olsner is an atom, it atomically changes what the atom contains to (inc @olsner)
17:54:24 <elliott> were shachaf
17:54:45 <kmc> http://docs.python.org/library/doctest.html is cute
17:54:47 <shachaf> elliott: You turn into shachaf at the full moon?
17:54:53 <Sgeo> Darnit
17:54:56 <shachaf> kmc: It is.
17:54:58 <olsner> atomically changing an atom, that sounds good
17:55:00 * Sgeo was going to say that but in a worse way
17:55:05 <shachaf> 10:55 <Rodney> The Moon is Waning Crescent (10% of Full). New moon in NetHack in 2 days.
17:55:26 <olsner> but what's (inc @olsner)?
17:55:39 <zzo38> Good things then, I have the phase of moon and all ephemeris of all planets in my computer.
17:55:41 <olsner> olsner incorporated?
17:55:53 <Sgeo> @ is a bit of reader syntax that will expand to (deref olsner)
17:55:58 <atriq> Which are the phases of the moon that are viewable mid-afternoon
17:56:04 <atriq> I'm overthinking a song I heard once
17:56:16 <olsner> why do I need to be dereffed before incorporation?
17:56:22 -!- variable has joined.
17:56:27 <Sgeo> (inc 5) ; 6
17:56:39 <Sgeo> (deref (atom 10)) ; 10
17:56:59 <zzo38> atriq: I don't know, maybe half moon?
17:57:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe a Zork Zero Moon.
17:57:21 <shachaf> Remember Zork Zero?
17:57:24 <shachaf> With the moons?
17:57:34 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:57:40 <atriq> Which half moon!
17:57:52 <shachaf> The inner half.
17:57:59 <elliott> olsner: how is your os
17:58:30 <olsner> elliott: no news
17:58:30 <zzo38> I have seen the Zork calendar, with various strange phase of moon
17:58:46 <shachaf> Dimwit's Birthday Observed.
17:59:13 <zzo38> Every Thursday, yes... But it is Friday today.
17:59:25 <atriq> Aaah, a waxing moon
18:00:11 <olsner> iirc, I was last setting up some boring stuff that'd allow running specific test-case programs on a fresh-booted kernel with qemu
18:00:21 <shachaf> zzo38: No, Zork Zero is shifted by one day.
18:00:46 <olsner> oh, and that either requires qemu built from git because some stuff is broken, or a bunch of boring workarounds in my code
18:00:54 <zzo38> shachaf: O, is that because of the different leap years?
18:01:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Uh, I guess.
18:01:23 <shachaf> I was just making things up.
18:01:26 <zzo38> In the mid-afternoon perhaps the sun is in the 8th house, so perhaps the moon would be in the 11th house then, so it would be waxing half moon, if visible in the mid afternoon.
18:02:02 <zzo38> (Since they move counterclockwise around the zodiac)
18:02:20 <zzo38> (that is, forward.)
18:04:07 <shachaf> I think clockwise is forward, zzo38.
18:04:13 <shachaf> Have you ever looked at a clock?
18:04:46 <zzo38> On a clock, yes, clockwise is forward. However, on a horoscope, the angle increases counterclockwise.
18:04:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: BEWARE THE Ø̈RJANIST MØ̈Ø̈SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:05:07 <zzo38> (that is, ecliptic longitude)
18:05:36 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE RJANIST MSE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:05:42 <shachaf> Ø̈
18:05:54 <shachaf> Ø̈Ø̈Ø̈
18:05:59 <zzo38> Oops I forgot one letter
18:06:13 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE ORJANIST MOOSE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:06:24 <zzo38> Oops I forgot the slash
18:06:37 <shachaf> Ø̈h nø̈.
18:07:00 <olsner> organist moose, now that's a sight
18:07:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:07:23 <kmc> beware the onanist moose
18:07:26 <Gregor> Womp womp.
18:07:40 <kmc> why are the channel logs now naked grandmas?
18:07:42 <olsner> what, no zardoz?
18:07:52 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:08:02 <Gregor> kmc: shadyurl.com = best URL shortener
18:08:14 <elliott> zzo38: Why did you duplicate the log link in the topic?
18:08:17 <kmc> haha
18:08:28 <olsner> oh, and someone should make a new zardoz joke
18:08:29 <Sgeo> Why does MyWOT dislike 5z8.info
18:08:37 <zzo38> elliott: I did not duplicate it. Now you have both the picture and text logs.
18:08:43 <olsner> fsvo "joke"
18:08:44 <elliott> the .jpg isn't a picture
18:08:54 <shachaf> Sgeo: What's a MyWOT?
18:08:56 <elliott> you're too biased to windows-centric file extensions, zzo38!!
18:09:00 <shachaf> It's a Clojure thing, isn't it?
18:09:11 <zzo38> Well, I didn't look so I don't know, I just know that .jpg is usually a picture (regardless of operating system).
18:09:15 <shachaf> Clø̈jure
18:09:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | ZARDOZ created ZARDOZ; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:09:42 <shachaf> zzo38: @ uses .jpg to hold filesystem metadata.
18:09:53 <olsner> someone should've made that link point to naked grandmas after people had been taught it was just a link to the logs
18:10:35 <atriq> Dear god
18:10:41 <Sgeo> Bluh, shadyurl doesn't like data URLs
18:10:49 <Sgeo> (URIs)
18:10:53 <atriq> I'm analysing a song from a children's TV show completely out of context
18:11:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then don't use shadyurl, if it doesn't like data URLs.
18:12:09 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:12:19 <zzo38> Hay why did you remove the log
18:12:43 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | ZARDOZ created ZARDOZ; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | Channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:12:53 <Gregor> zzo38 has a serious case of Not Getting the Joke, even though the joke was inspired by him.
18:13:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, because it was there, but just looked different
18:13:42 <Sgeo> shachaf, Web of Trust thingy, people vote on whether domains are suspicious or not
18:13:54 <Sgeo> Sometimes people suck, but I do tend to rely on it
18:14:05 <shachaf> 5z8.info is very suspicious.
18:14:11 <shachaf> That's not even a valid z-encoding!
18:14:23 <kmc> xn--5z8.info
18:14:43 <Sgeo> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/geocities.com
18:15:06 <Sgeo> Just ... read the comments
18:15:10 <zzo38> Well, it is a redirect but not a very good one, it says "expected /hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpgsplit Arrayshort hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpgQUERYhookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg" on it!
18:15:30 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:15:43 <olsner> searching for z-encoding gave me "Zen Coding is a set of plug-ins for text editors that allow for high-speed coding and editing in HTML, XML, XSL, [...]"
18:15:52 -!- augur has joined.
18:16:01 <olsner> but to be fair, the second hit was the ghc commentary
18:16:29 <Gregor> “Zen” and “XML” should not be allowed in the same sentence.
18:16:40 <zzo38> Then fix it to use xn--5z8.info if you think 5z8.info is no good
18:16:50 <Gregor> Except to say “those who have written XML can never achieve Zen.”
18:17:00 <zzo38> Gregor: Are you sure?
18:17:08 <Gregor> Quite.
18:17:19 <Deewiant> https://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info
18:17:23 <atriq> I thought the path to Zen was avoiding Zen
18:17:35 <augur> Sgeo: wat
18:17:36 <Deewiant> Where does it get the value from? I doubt someone's actually voted for that
18:18:23 <elliott> it's almost as if you can't trust web of trust
18:19:14 <atriq> ...I'm analysing a Eurobeat fansong of a children's TV show
18:19:16 <Deewiant> It's also got a higher score than the more normal domain name https://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/www.phlamethrower.co.uk
18:19:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:19:39 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:19:50 <Deewiant> Even though in the latter case it claims to know where the server is, unlike the former
18:22:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:28:57 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:35:39 <Sgeo> Maybe someone did vote for it
18:36:17 <Sgeo> The plugin doesn't really do exact numbers
18:36:26 <elliott> yeah all those befunge haters on the internet
18:37:01 -!- zzo38 has set topic: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | ZARDOZ created ZARDOZ; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | New channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nakedgrandmas.jpg | Old-style channel logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:37:16 <kmc> i am arthur frayne, and i am zardoz
18:38:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:38:22 <kmc> i see "MOH/OH/SE" where the H's are reverse video which I guess means they are ^H?
18:38:23 <olsner> i am not zardoz
18:38:41 <olsner> I just see MO/O/SE
18:38:47 <kmc> oh i get it
18:39:09 <zzo38> kmc: They are supposed to be backspace
18:39:12 <olsner> ah, that thing where you use backspace to put characters on top of each other?
18:39:49 <zzo38> My computer shows them black-on-purple on the screen, but displays the slashed O properly on the printout.
18:40:01 <Sgeo> For me it just says MO/O/SE
18:40:01 <kmc> do you print out hardcopy logs of IRC?
18:40:09 <zzo38> (I mean the "H" with black on purple; the rest of the text in blue)
18:40:17 <zzo38> kmc: Sometimes.
18:40:23 <Sgeo> kmc, you don't?
18:40:24 <olsner> kmc: yes, and then he OCRs them and puts them on gopher
18:40:26 <kmc> lol
18:40:29 <kmc> yes
18:40:40 <kmc> at one point i had a dot matrix printer as my linux system console
18:40:56 <kmc> to diagnose a bug which crashed the graphics card
18:41:05 <kmc> it slowed down the boot process quite a bit
18:41:51 <shachaf> Did you connect to IRC?
18:41:57 <kmc> not on the printer
18:43:47 <olsner> but why would you use an actual printer instead of e.g. connecting a null modem cable to another computer?
18:44:44 <shachaf> Reaching the billionth decimal digit of pi could help technologists and mathematicians because they can use the equation to create random number sequences. Random numbers are a driving force behind computer security, including everyday consumer-level protections, like in electronic banking.
18:45:00 <kmc> because i didn't have another computer
18:45:25 <kmc> or didn't have a null modem cable, or something
18:45:28 <kmc> i don't remember exactly
18:45:54 <kmc> more recently i have used netconsole for this
18:46:10 <zzo38> Can ARCFOUR be used for random number generator, though?
18:46:30 <olsner> kmc: but you did have a dot matrix printer?
18:46:30 <zzo38> I don't think pi is best for random number since pi is always the same for everyone.
18:46:51 <shachaf> zzo38: The question is whether your computer is fast enough to compute it farther than anyone else.
18:46:56 <kmc> olsner: yes
18:47:07 <shachaf> That's why we build supercomputers.
18:47:22 <olsner> kmc: ok
18:47:32 <Deewiant> RC4 has been used in some BSDs as (part of) a random number generator, IIRC.
18:47:40 <zzo38> shachaf: What you have to do is to make the computer reprogram its own hardware to calculate billion digits of pi
18:48:38 * shachaf likes the idea of a world where randomness is a scarce resource that has to be mined and such.
18:49:20 <zzo38> Deewiant: As part of? What other part did they use, then?
18:49:25 <shachaf> I guess the idea of people who carry one-time pad data is related.
18:49:39 <Arc_Koen> uh, that's weird
18:50:15 <Arc_Koen> http://samuelhughes.com/boof/ has "If the end-of-file character has been input, outputs a zero to the bit under the pointer." as part of the description of the ; (output) instruction
18:50:19 <Deewiant> zzo38: I don't know, that's why it was in brackets. Perhaps it was the whole thing and there were no other parts.
18:50:43 <Arc_Koen> do you think it's just a mistake and should be part of , (input) or is it some special feature?
18:51:20 <olsner> shachaf: hmm... but the tricky part about one-time pad data is that you need the same randomness in two places, not that you need to collect a bunch of random?
18:52:41 <shachaf> olsner: Right, it's not the same thing.
18:53:36 <olsner> in this randomscarce world of yours, would one random bit be a reasonable christmas present?
18:53:54 <zzo38> Deewiant: As it turns out, Famicom Hangman uses not only RC4 but also fails to initialize i and j (so it uses whatever happens to be in RAM at power on) and uses the microphone, and it runs several times per frame until the space-bar is pushed.
18:54:08 <fizzie> A friend and I once collected a CD's worth of random, to be used as a one-time pad in conjunction with an irssi script.
18:54:15 <shachaf> olsner: Only if kept it wrapped.
18:54:19 <fizzie> Sadly, it never really got used.
18:54:55 <olsner> shachaf: no, you unwrap it to see that it's a random bit box, then you need to open that box to use the random bit
18:55:04 <zzo38> (It still appears to work fine even without a microphone; but it uses the microphone if it is available.)
18:55:05 <olsner> it could be some kind of single-use electronic device too
18:58:07 <zzo38> Deewiant: Are you sure they wouldn't add microphone and that stuff to the random numbers too, if such things would be available?
18:58:11 <olsner> if you don't disclose whether it's previously used or not, does that give you another bit of random?
18:59:48 -!- augur has joined.
19:01:15 <olsner> shachaf: also, what happens if you roll a dice too often in this world of yours?
19:01:24 <Deewiant> zzo38: I don't know.
19:01:28 <shachaf> olsner: A die?
19:01:39 <olsner> A is an integer number of dice
19:01:52 <shachaf> Clever.
19:02:15 <zzo38> If you need to use a dice for encryption, maybe you should use a casino dice and make sure to rull against the wall
19:02:28 <olsner> dice: the gift that keeps on giving random numbers
19:03:23 <kmc> maybe in shachaf's world the physics of dice rolling is just very easily predictable
19:03:50 <kmc> even in our world you can learn to throw a die to a particular side
19:03:58 <olsner> yeah, or maybe dice roll slower and slower as their random supply runs out
19:04:15 <zzo38> I read about a "quantum dice" which always rolls doubles when rolled together, but act like regular dice when thrown individually. It probably doesn't exist; they just wanted to describe it.
19:04:36 <shachaf> Maybe everyone knows the entire state of the world at any point.
19:04:54 <shachaf> Except for the inside of their brain, which starts out deterministic but gets seeded with random data.
19:05:33 <olsner> brains are the only sources of random data?
19:05:59 <Arc_Koen> wouuuw I wrote exactly one fourth of the truth-machine implementations on the truth-machine page
19:06:15 <olsner> (this is a placeholder for some kind of pun about zombies)
19:09:11 <fizzie> Remeber to go back and replace it with the actual pun some day.
19:09:12 <zzo38> How can brains be the only sources of random data, it is like physical like anything else? It must follow the same laws, although there is possibliity to cause different results just as mathematical functions can give different outputs by the different inputs.
19:09:15 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:09:37 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
19:09:58 <olsner> fizzie: feel free to remind me, but I'm good at neither puns nor zombies
19:10:53 <olsner> maybe oerjan or funpuns can fill it in later
19:11:29 <Arc_Koen> olsner: I seem to recall joke #32 was about zombies
19:11:32 <FreeFull> Brains don't really depend on quantum effects for operation any more than a rock does
19:11:33 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, I wonder if I should try implementing in in $current_preferred_language
19:11:51 <Arc_Koen> never heard of that language
19:11:57 <Arc_Koen> but yeah, you should
19:12:25 <Sgeo> Although most of these implementations are in esolangs
19:12:32 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, yes, but rocks are simpler so the result is generally the same as anything. However, everything will depend on quantum effect, I think.
19:12:45 <zzo38> Including rock.
19:12:54 <FreeFull> zzo38: That is part of my point
19:13:05 <zzo38> It must, since it is the same law of physics!
19:16:01 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: well, maybe we could add one in C in the intro
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19:16:19 <Arc_Koen> that could be clearer that the current pseudo-code
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19:17:13 <FreeFull> How about haskell
19:17:41 <zzo38> Just write it in whatever you want; whatever is the clearest can be linked to from the intro, I suppose.
19:20:20 <FreeFull> I'm thinking C is just a bit old, therefore doesn't have some of the convieniences =P
19:26:04 <zzo38> I think also that the I/O of FurryScript is not good enough to make truth-machine since it can only make input at beginning and output at the end. Possibly with lazy evaluation it could be done, but the current implementation does not use lazy evaluation.
19:26:34 <Arc_Koen> it's the same problem with Kipple and a couple other languages
19:26:52 <Arc_Koen> Squihy2K
19:27:22 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Squishy2K
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20:29:32 <Gregor> OMG, I just realized that it is my destiny to create a web technology called AppleJAX.
20:44:56 <quintopia> :/ ponies
20:46:22 <Gregor> HELL
20:46:23 <Gregor> YES
20:46:24 <Gregor> PONIES
20:47:25 <pikhq> Gregor: :D
20:49:07 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Poniest.
20:49:16 <Poniest> Did somebody say “HELL YES PONIES”?! Yeah, I did!
20:49:29 <nortti> :P
20:50:48 <Arc_Koen> "Several languages exist which are based on rewriting strings, the most well-known being Thue."
20:50:49 <nortti> anyone who understands what this does gets a virtual cookie: main(){char a[256],*b,*c[256],**d;int p;while(1){write(1,"$ ",2);for(b=a;*(b-1)!='\n';b++){read(0,b,1);}*b=0;d=c;*d++=a;for(b=a;b<a+256&&*b!=0;b++){if(*b==' '||*b=='\n'){*b=0;*d=b+1;d++;}}*(d-1)=0;if(!(p=fork()))execvp(a,c);else wait(p);}}
20:50:58 <Arc_Koen> I thought it should be "the best-known being Thue"
20:51:03 <nortti> bonus point to the first one who finds the buffer overflow
20:51:23 <Arc_Koen> nortti: am I allowed to compile it?
20:51:28 <nortti> no
20:51:47 <Arc_Koen> or at least copy it into a text file and add proper indentation
20:51:51 <nortti> yes
20:52:03 <FreeFull> nortti: Is it cheating if I copy-paste it into a text editor and make it more readable? =P
20:52:09 <nortti> no
20:52:24 <boily> there seems to be a suspicious fork() and execvp() in there.
20:52:25 <nortti> don't forget that there is 1 space in there
20:53:00 <Arc_Koen> *d++=a
20:53:07 <Arc_Koen> what the heck of a way to code is that
20:53:36 <Poniest> Uhhh, that's pretty conventional.
20:54:10 <Arc_Koen> uh, I don't know fork() or execvp
20:54:11 <Poniest> void strcpy(char*a,char*b){while(*b)*a++=*b++;*a=0;}
20:55:03 <nortti> Arc_Koen: those are unix syscalls like read and write you should notice in there
20:56:00 <Arc_Koen> hum, right, I don't know read and write either
20:56:07 <Arc_Koen> I guess man will help me
20:56:11 <nortti> yes
20:56:28 <nortti> consult your nearest man page
20:56:36 <Arc_Koen> well hum there is a builtin read function in the shell OF COURSE so it won't show me the C one
20:56:48 <Arc_Koen> man man will tell me how to do that maybe
20:56:51 <nortti> use man section name
20:57:27 <nortti> in this case man 2 read
20:57:36 <Arc_Koen> I can do that?
20:57:39 <nortti> yes
20:58:08 <Arc_Koen> wait, it tells me you have to #include a bunch of stuff
20:58:14 <Arc_Koen> therefore your program should not work
20:58:20 <nortti> why?
20:58:36 <Arc_Koen> because there are no #includes in your program
20:58:48 <nortti> I didn't need includes with unix v6 and I don't need then mow
20:59:07 <nortti> and it only needs size_t
20:59:45 <nortti> and as you see only a literal is used there
21:00:41 <nortti> so following bad coding practices I left the #include out bcause I wanted to fit it in one line
21:03:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:06:36 <kmc> in C if a function is not declared it is assumed to exist with an int return type and an arbitrary number of int arguments
21:06:39 <kmc> or something?
21:06:55 <kmc> it's more complicated than what I just said, I'm sure
21:07:46 <kmc> anyway nortti i'm guessing it's a shell
21:07:52 <kmc> i think you showed us before
21:08:10 <Poniest> There are specific rules regarding the default types of the parameters given the arguments, with the implication that those same types have to be compatible if you later give it a proper prototype.
21:08:13 <kmc> also the write(',"$ ",2); and fork and execvp are good clues
21:09:04 <kmc> but your shell does not do job control!
21:09:23 * nortti gives kmc a virtual cookie
21:09:36 <nortti> now find the buffer overflow
21:09:51 <kmc> well there are only so many places it could be :)
21:11:59 <FreeFull> You never allocate a space for c
21:12:02 <FreeFull> That can't be good
21:12:24 <nortti> what do you mean?
21:12:35 <nortti> >char a[256],*b,*c[256],**d
21:12:56 <FreeFull> A pointer to a 256 char array
21:13:22 <FreeFull> Unless I'm reading it wrong and it's a 256 array of char pointers
21:13:26 <kmc> no it's the latter
21:13:36 <FreeFull> Ok, nevermind then.
21:13:37 <kmc> cdecl> explain char *c[256]
21:13:37 <kmc> declare c as array 256 of pointer to char
21:13:42 <kmc> <3 cdecl
21:14:08 <FreeFull> Maybe I should get cdecl then =P
21:14:14 <nortti> FreeFull: do you understand what pointers are put in c?
21:14:30 <FreeFull> Let me look
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21:14:38 <kmc> "*d=b+1;d++;" could be replaced with "*d++=b+1;" for extra obfuscation
21:14:53 <nortti> hmm. missed that for some reason
21:14:57 <kmc> you
21:15:01 <kmc> you did it somewhere else aleady
21:15:02 <kmc> already
21:15:04 * kmc can't type
21:15:06 <nortti> but the aim is not to obfuscate
21:15:09 <kmc> sure
21:15:20 <nortti> it is just compact it
21:15:21 <kmc> there is a difference between compact code and obfuscated code
21:15:22 <kmc> yes
21:15:45 <FreeFull> You could get rid of d and replace all occurences of it with c and it'd still work, right?
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21:16:02 <FreeFull> Actually no
21:16:03 <Poniest> char*a,b[9999];main(){gets(a=b);while(*a){a+=(b[*a]-=b[a[1]])?3:a[2];}puts(b+1);}
21:16:06 <FreeFull> Because you d++; at one point
21:16:08 <Poniest> ^^
21:17:05 <FreeFull> nortti: Pointers to chars in a, right?
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21:17:24 <kmc> also there is no way to exit the shell :D
21:17:24 <nortti> FreeFull: yes
21:17:48 * nortti gives some extra points to kmc
21:18:02 <nortti> forgot to include that in the puzzle
21:18:09 <kmc> of course that would be as easy as if(!read(0,b,1))return;
21:18:11 <olsner> is there a unix shell that emulates command.com? (or cmd.exe?)
21:18:17 <FreeFull> Can't you ^C =P
21:18:28 <nortti> yeah
21:18:39 <kmc> yeah because it doesn't do job control ;P
21:18:54 <nortti> but any other way than abusing it not handling signals
21:21:58 <nortti> if no one finds the buffer overflow in 10 minutes I'm going to reveal it
21:23:21 <kmc> it's just that long command lines will overflow 'a', right?
21:23:27 <nortti> yes
21:30:43 * nortti gives kmc bonus points
21:34:31 <olsner> oh, that was a boring one ... gets is an automatic buffer overflow
21:36:40 <Poniest> Mine has gets, not his.
21:38:08 <olsner> ok
21:42:49 <kmc> what does yours do Poniest
21:43:13 <Poniest> Don't feel like guessing, eh? X-D
21:43:23 <kmc> well i ran it but it wasn't particularly enlightnening
21:43:33 <Poniest> You'd need very carefully-constructed input to use it.
21:43:45 <Poniest> It's an interpreter for a TC subleq-like language.
21:44:00 <Poniest> Although it is not itself TC since the memory is fixed at 9999 bytes.
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21:45:54 <kmc> what a coincidence, my computer is also not turing complete :)
21:47:08 <kmc> you can build a turing machine by making an EC2 instance which upgrades its own storage when necessary, and also has an endowment in government bonds or something, which will eventually cover the costs of additional computation
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21:48:22 <kmc> of course when amazon goes out of business you are still screwed :(
21:49:37 <olsner> not if the machine moves to another internet fluffy weather thingy
21:49:37 <Poniest> I like how you blindly ran unreadable C code, btw.
21:50:07 <olsner> it's ok, he probably ran it as root so it couldn't touch his user data
21:50:48 <Poniest> *nodnod*
21:51:17 <kmc> it's not unreadable
21:51:30 <kmc> i couldn't tell exactly what it does but i was fairly confident that it wouldn't do anything too nasty
21:51:49 <kmc> the only system-ish calls are gets and puts
21:51:59 <kmc> and it's too simple to be constructing a nasty payload and buffer overflowing it, or anything like that
21:52:04 <kmc> though really
21:52:11 <kmc> i am interested in how well you can hide these things
21:52:30 <kmc> i want to run a contest kind of like http://underhanded.xcott.com/
21:52:33 <kmc> but more open-ended
21:55:45 <olsner> kind of like ioccc but for malicious programs?
21:56:20 <kmc> kind of, yeah
21:56:36 * Sgeo thinks that Lisps might be good for that because as far as I understand, indentation is crucial for readability, so false indentation might be able to trick readers, I think
21:56:44 <kmc> for the most part programs in ioccc are obviously very hard to understand
21:57:02 <kmc> i'm interested in programs which look like very straightforward implementations of one thing, but actually do some other malicious thing
21:57:08 <olsner> oh, except that instead of inscrutable they should look harmless
21:57:10 <kmc> there are a few IOCCC winners like that, though
21:57:12 <kmc> yeah
21:57:24 <kmc> also, it's easy to make a progra
21:57:25 <olsner> I recall some Java-like thing
21:57:25 <kmc> er
21:57:34 <kmc> also, it's easy to make a program with a deliberate subtle security hole
21:57:43 <kmc> but that's not so interesting either
21:58:01 <kmc> so it's hard to delineate exactly what i'm looking for
21:58:21 <olsner> leave it to the judges? :)
21:58:26 <kmc> yeah :)
21:59:13 <kmc> i started writing up guidelines
21:59:26 <kmc> 'Your program should conceal the malicious behavior from the user for as long as possible. It's especially impressive if you can make it look like an honest mistake even after it's been uncovered.'
22:00:00 <Sgeo> kmc, that underhanded thing, were the submissions ever shown/judged?
22:00:04 <Sgeo> For the airline one
22:00:09 <kmc> not sure
22:00:14 <kmc> i think not for that iteration of the contest
22:00:19 <kmc> some previous years are on there though
22:01:19 <kmc> i'm particularly interested in what psychological tricks you can play to make someone shrug and say "eh, this code is probably ok"
22:01:19 <olsner> I think the underhanded contest was a bit boring because you had to solve one specific problem and make a specific kind of malicious behavior
22:01:23 <kmc> yeah
22:01:25 <kmc> i agree
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22:05:39 <olsner> actually, I think this kind of program goes well in the ioccc
22:06:32 <olsner> although they might be surprised to get submissions that don't look obfuscated at all
22:07:06 <olsner> also might be pissed if they try your program and it does something evil
22:08:10 <Poniest> It would be just fine to /tell/ them it does something evil.
22:08:26 <Poniest> In a way it's not similar to that submission that #defined a bunch of stuff to make Java-looking code run.
22:08:31 <Poniest> *not dissimilar
22:08:40 <Poniest> And in a way, it's not similar ^^
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22:14:58 <kmc> yeah
22:15:06 <kmc> my contest would definitely not be limited to C, though
22:15:18 <kmc> i think a lot of different languages have a lot of different interesting ways to hide shit
22:15:56 <kmc> i want to see a LaTeX document class that steals your SSH private key
22:16:16 <kmc> to recover the key, the attacker has to print out the document and soak it in lemon juice
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22:18:23 <Sgeo> "Note that some really nasty security holes result from similar acts of syntactic cleverness. Probably the biggest example is the format specifier bug, which exists because a zillion programmers think that writing printf( string ) instead of printf( %s, string ) is kinda neat."
22:20:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:26:05 <Arc_Koen> oh I had never thought of writing printf(string)
22:26:08 <Arc_Koen> thank you so much
22:26:25 <Poniest> X-D
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22:34:26 <kmc> first thing in gitit user's guide: "Gitit is a wiki program written in Haskell. It uses Happstack for the web server"
22:34:37 <kmc> cause if there's anything users care most about, it's what language and web framework was used to implement the site
22:34:55 <kmc> gitit is pretty cool though
22:38:45 <kmc> i like that i can download any page on my wiki as a LaTeX document, man page, or S5 slideshow
22:39:04 <kmc> for that "not three shits were given" presentation look
22:44:49 -!- augur has joined.
22:57:51 <olsner> it better not give you one of those LaTeX documents that steals your SSH private key
22:58:50 -!- Poniest has changed nick to Gregor.
22:58:53 <Gregor> Oh, it does.
22:58:58 <Gregor> Even the S5 presentation does.
22:59:18 * ion saved an idea for a rhythm in glorious General MIDI. http://heh.fi/tmp/test-20121013.midi
22:59:40 <olsner> I suppose the man page does too
23:01:13 <elliott> ion: how do i play general midi on linux again
23:01:45 <ion> elliott: xdg-open http://heh.fi/tmp/test-20121013.midi
23:01:54 <elliott> i mean
23:01:56 <olsner> hah, as if that would work
23:01:58 <Gregor> My estimation of that working: 0%
23:02:01 <elliott> what player do i need to install for midis
23:02:03 <ion> Worksforme™
23:02:04 <Gregor> *estimated chance
23:02:11 <ion> elliott: Totem plays it on my system.
23:02:21 <ion> What’s your default media player?
23:02:25 <Gregor> ion: … do you have a hardware MIDI synth?
23:02:28 <ion> no
23:02:47 <Gregor> Then your distro must configure timidity or fluidsynth as an alsa server by default, I suppose.
23:02:52 <ion> nope
23:03:02 <elliott> pfft, totem
23:03:04 <elliott> all these modern conveniences
23:03:20 <olsner> oh, xdg-open opened the link in my browser, upon which my browser is offering to open the file using xdg-open
23:03:34 <ion> Try that
23:03:36 <Gregor> The answer is not “it's magic”, ion, there exists a sequencer somewhere X_X
23:04:07 <pikhq> I blit into the framebuffer just right and tune an AM radio to my monitor.
23:04:08 <olsner> chockingly, I don't have a midi player installed
23:04:12 <ion> elliott: gst-launch-0.10 filesrc location=test-20121013.midi ! decodebin ! alsasink
23:04:28 <elliott> apparently i actually have gstreamer
23:04:29 <Gregor> <Gregor> Then your distro must configure timidity or fluidsynth as an alsa server by default, I suppose.
23:04:31 <elliott> but i doubt that will work
23:04:35 <elliott> i have no midi synthesiser installed
23:05:19 <ion> This seems to be the thing it uses. /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gstreamer-0.10/libgstwildmidi.so
23:05:41 <olsner> oh wow, xdg-open's list of candidates lists 11 copies of Internet Explorer
23:05:57 <ion> It came from gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad
23:06:33 <Gregor> wildmidi, never heard of it. Uses GUS patches though, so it's shit.
23:06:43 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webmidi/
23:06:46 <elliott> what is gus
23:06:57 <elliott> webmidi doesn't accept a url, worthless
23:07:12 <olsner> derp, and I forgot to uncheck the "always use this program" thingy, so now all midi files open with internet explorer
23:07:19 <Gregor> lul
23:08:14 <ion> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/22676115734515/22676115734515.ogg
23:08:19 <olsner> (I don't seem to have IE installed)
23:09:28 <elliott> i like how tinny this sounds
23:10:46 <elliott> anyone remember the algorhythm thing
23:10:55 <elliott> imo ion should generate a melody for thar rhythm with it
23:11:18 <ion> I’ll generate a melody using the algorithms in my wetware. :-P
23:11:38 <elliott> no
23:11:40 <elliott> humans are insufficient
23:11:54 <elliott> nothing surpassed the algorhythms
23:12:06 <olsner> elliott: GUS is a well-renouned sound card from the age before such things were standard equipment built into every PC
23:12:12 <elliott> i forget what Gregor's really good one was called
23:12:15 <elliott> olsner: oh gravisis
23:12:17 <olsner> it had buffers and samples and fancy stuff
23:12:34 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/test-20121013.pdf
23:12:52 <elliott> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/mp/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata this one
23:12:53 <Gregor> elliott: Onerously Uptight Toccata.
23:12:57 <elliott> Gregor: please add a link that automatically webmidis it
23:12:59 <elliott> so i can listen to it
23:13:13 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.ogg
23:13:16 <olsner> "Type: Masterpiece"
23:13:19 <Gregor> But I'll bear that in mind for this weekend and/or never.
23:16:12 <elliott> i can't find the ones i made RIP
23:16:19 <elliott> well i remember http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/mp/Onerous%20Cake-Eating%20Festival%20Disallowment%20Barricade
23:16:23 <elliott> but i forget what it sounds like because there's no ogg link
23:16:49 <Gregor> Womp womp.
23:17:11 <Gregor> First world too-lazy-to-just-download-it-then-upload-it-to-webmidi problems.
23:17:33 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/228332553116545/228332553116545.ogg doesn't work
23:17:40 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/228332553116545/
23:17:49 <Gregor> Well, I can't figure out why, as I'm at work, so nya ^^
23:17:54 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/228332553116545/log.txt
23:17:56 <elliott> yes you can there's a log
23:18:03 <Gregor> Oh
23:18:09 <Gregor> Uh
23:18:13 <Gregor> That's an unhelpful log ^^´
23:19:24 <elliott> now i'm trying with chorium
23:19:26 <elliott> but it's stuck as "queued"
23:19:31 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/2288519420303/
23:20:08 <Gregor> The queue isn't based on webmidi submissions, it's based on system load.
23:20:21 <Gregor> Webmidi is always prioritized lower than… just about everything else :)
23:20:36 <elliott> ok now it finished and spat out a 0 second file
23:20:42 <elliott> fuk this
23:21:16 <elliott> i think this "Roe v_ Wade As An Analogy For Temperature" one is mine
23:21:54 <elliott> Gregor: btw fluidsynth: warning: Failed to pin the sample data to RAM; swapping is possible.
23:21:55 <elliott> this seems bad
23:22:07 <Gregor> It's irrelevant for rendering to a file.
23:22:23 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/22981154128959/22981154128959.ogg this is amazing
23:22:24 <Gregor> And infrequently an issue even for live playback.
23:23:09 <elliott> i think this may be the best thing i have ever made
23:23:54 <Gregor> And you didn't even make it.
23:23:55 <Gregor> *tsk tsk*
23:24:16 <elliott> sure i did
23:28:06 <Gregor> A couple weeks ago I drove by a place called “Beverages and More”. I thought to myself, “what a bizarre niche”, and drove on.
23:28:19 <Gregor> Today I realized, of COURSE a place called “Beverages and More” would have Moxie.
23:28:28 <Gregor> In retrospect, I am a fool :'(
23:28:44 <Gregor> But in prospect, I will soon have Moxie!
23:29:06 <Arc_Koen> elliott: your .ogg file sounds like it runs four times too fast
23:29:38 <elliott> Arc_Koen: maybe you run four times too slow
23:29:42 <elliott> how about this http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/23051228304267/23051228304267.ogg
23:30:39 <Arc_Koen> also four~five times too fast
23:30:48 <elliott> gonna go with you being too slow on this one
23:30:51 <Arc_Koen> there might be something wrong with my player
23:31:38 <elliott> does http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.ogg sound too fast
23:31:42 <elliott> (it's meant to be 160 bpm)
23:32:11 <Arc_Koen> yup
23:32:34 <Arc_Koen> it's not just the sound - my player actually displays the time and every second it's incremented by 4 or 5
23:51:44 <shachaf> kmc: Any talk of extracting the interesting part of mosh into a library?
23:58:22 <kmc> people talk of it, yes
23:58:29 <kmc> by "the interesting part" do you mean the state sync protocol?
23:58:44 <shachaf> Yes.
23:59:28 <kmc> well, it is already sort of a library
23:59:41 <kmc> it lives in its own directory in the mosh source tree
23:59:47 <kmc> and has a reasonably clean if completely undocumented interface
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