00:20:50 <kmc> our CEO sent himself an email last night with one word in the subject and no body
00:21:02 <kmc> and today nobody (including him) can figure out what it means
00:33:03 <Sgeo> Oh great, now I have a new programming language/environment to be interested in
00:33:08 <Sgeo> http://www.ciaohome.org/
00:37:06 <Sgeo> "This produces an executable called hello in Un*x-like systems and hello.cpx under Win32 systems."
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00:48:47 <Sgeo> Oh, I think it's executables just for where Ciao is installed
00:48:56 <Sgeo> Hi Bike. You're a #lisp native, right?
00:50:11 <Bike> I suppose I must be.
00:53:53 <kmc> shachaf: Rosebud
00:54:01 <kmc> not really
00:54:11 <kmc> on another note http://www.nietzschefamilycircus.com/
00:54:34 <Bike> «Surface is the disposition of woman: a mobile, stormy film over shallow water.» ergh.
00:54:45 <Bike> Don't be like that, Billy.
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03:44:42 <zzo38> Someone asked what the government does with the hour they take from us when daylight saving time is on.
03:45:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read _Momo_?
03:53:53 <zzo38> But anyways daylight saving time does eventually is off too
04:03:32 <kmc> 'The drama “SEAL Team Six,” about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, was edited to give a starring role to the president. It will be shown on television two days before the election.'
04:03:36 <kmc> that is classy
04:04:49 <zzo38> Do you know why (in Dungeons&Dragons) game I want the evil chancellor to be sunburned?
04:08:06 <zzo38> Same reason why I need the nail clippers and facial hair trimmer, and one of the two reasons I need the wig.
04:10:03 <zzo38> Can you make any guess?
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04:26:01 <kmc> "Learning Ruby if you know Python is like learning Spanish if you know French. It's not going to stretch your brain, but it will help you talk to half of San Francisco."
04:30:54 <zzo38> I also want to know, where is that from?
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04:42:23 <Sgeo> Eh, Ruby is more functional than Python
04:46:13 <kmc> shachaf: a quote from a friend, paraphrased
04:46:17 <shachaf> Sgeo: but is it more of a lisp than python?
04:46:32 <kmc> i'm not sure that Ruby the language is actually more functional, but the Ruby community is less fearful and misunderstanding of FP
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04:46:42 * Sgeo thwacks shachaf
04:47:06 <shachaf> I'm not the one who should be thwacked here!
04:47:16 <Sgeo> Although, Ruby is more amenable to using the same forms to change definitions than Python is, if that counts for anything whatsoever
04:47:38 <Sgeo> class C: <stuff>
04:47:47 <Sgeo> someinstance = C()
04:47:52 <Sgeo> class C: <newstuff>
04:48:08 <Sgeo> That won't change instances already made.
04:48:24 <Sgeo> It will instead make a new class called C, and the old class isn't referred to by C anymore
04:50:09 <Bike> anything like update-instance-for-redefined-class?
04:50:38 <Sgeo> You can modify classes, just not with the class syntax
04:50:52 <Sgeo> And the instances will behave as by the changed class
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05:10:42 <shachaf> kmc: Sigh, this Wikipedia article uses italic N to mean something completely different from bold N.
05:11:13 <shachaf> Well, not completely different. I guess N is an element of the image of N, or something.
05:15:47 <tswett> So guys, you know how there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers?
05:16:25 <kmc> yeah what does that mean
05:16:28 <shachaf> How do you catch a unique definition of the natural numbers?
05:16:36 <tswett> Yeah. Like, there are computable sets of axioms that the natural numbers satisfy.
05:16:49 <tswett> But for all such sets, there are also things other than the natural numbers that also satisfy the same axioms.
05:16:51 <kmc> up to isomoprhism? how are we defining isomorphisms in our metatheory?
05:17:29 <tswett> According to their definition?
05:17:39 <kmc> i'm confused
05:17:47 <tswett> Two monoids are isomorphic if there exists a bijection between them that commutes with the monoid operation.
05:18:09 <kmc> well i'm not too impressed with isomorphisms in the metatheory, as it's not formal
05:18:43 <tswett> I suppose the tricky question is: how are we defining the phrase "the natural numbers" so that we can talk about them?
05:19:05 <kmc> well it's not so important which one is "the natural numbers", just that there are two non-isomorphic things satisfying these axioms
05:19:23 <Bike> before you keep going, can I just ask if "uniquely" was actually important to what you said?
05:19:55 <tswett> Well, yes, it is. Like I said, it's possible to come up with a computable set of axioms that is satisfied by the natural numbers.
05:19:55 <tswett> For example, the natural numbers are a model of the Peano axioms.
05:20:00 <tswett> But there are also other models of the Peano axioms.
05:20:25 <Bike> ok, just checking.
05:21:21 <kmc> can you easily describe another model of PA?
05:21:40 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms#Nonstandard_models perhaps
05:21:56 <kmc> oh there's an *upward* Löwenheim–Skolem theorem??
05:23:35 <kmc> "there is no countable nonstandard model of PA in which either the addition or multiplication operation is computable"
05:24:06 <shachaf> How many models of Palo Alto are there?
05:31:39 <kmc> you know there is all this consternation over the fact that things with mediocre design (UNIX, PHP, x86) get popular while their better-designed competitors languish in obscurity
05:31:47 <kmc> and much theory built around "worse is better" and such
05:31:55 <kmc> but i just realized what the simplest explanation is
05:32:05 <kmc> popularity is random, and most things are poorly designed
05:32:07 <kmc> that's all
05:32:21 <Bike> but can you sell a book with that premise
05:32:36 <kmc> well i can but whether it becomes a best-seller is a crapshoot
05:33:12 <kmc> popularity doesn't even have to be that random for this to hold
05:33:26 <kmc> because the degree to which most things are poorly designed is overwhelming
05:33:50 <kmc> though PHP is not so much poorly designed as not designed at all
05:39:32 <tswett> So, just how *do* you define "natural number", anyway?
05:39:43 <Jafet> Go with your heart.
05:40:03 <kmc> what is natural number, baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more
05:40:04 <tswett> I guess it's easy if you have a definition of "set".
05:40:50 <shachaf> http://www.macroeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/calvin-hobbes-imaginary-numbers-and-calculus.gif
05:40:59 <tswett> And the notion of "set" seems perfectly intuitive.
05:41:09 <Bike> 'seems', how tricky
05:41:32 <tswett> Sets are those things such that, for every collection of thingies, there's a set containing precisely those thingies.
05:41:50 <Bike> doesn't that just move the definition to 'collection'?
05:44:29 <Jafet> Except the collection of all sets
05:45:12 <shachaf> The collection of all sets that do not contain Jafet.
05:45:55 <coppro> Bike: ZFC's handling of 'classes' requires inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory
05:47:06 <Jafet> I am the set of all things that contain Jafet.
05:47:09 <tswett> Jafet: well, not all sets are thingies.
05:47:30 <coppro> Bike: NBG is a conservative extension of ZFC that has proper classes
05:47:46 <coppro> but does not allow the use of arbitrary quantification over all classes, only over all sets
05:47:58 <coppro> however, this restriction is sort of arbitrary, really
05:48:32 <coppro> so if you allow quantification over all classes, you get MK
05:48:42 <coppro> unfortunately, that only works out with inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory
05:48:56 <Bike> Sorry, what did I say to prompt this?
05:49:34 <coppro> 01:41:50 < Bike> doesn't that just move the definition to 'collection'?
05:49:41 <kmc> 'inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory' sounds like a The Mars Volta song title
05:50:11 <Jafet> Theorem: any sufficiently advanced set theory requires inelegant circumlocution in the metatheory.
05:50:54 <Jafet> A The Mars Volta sounds like a Mothers of Invention song title
05:55:15 <kmc> "He would throw away a radio that was on without turning it off first."
05:57:08 * coppro likes NBG and things it should replace ZFC
05:57:45 <coppro> Because it has classes as actual objects
05:57:54 <coppro> some branches of math (like category theory) effectively work in NBG
05:57:59 <coppro> although this hasn't really trickled down
05:58:24 <coppro> also NBG has a wonderful axiom that implies global choice
05:58:38 <Bike> What's global choice?
05:59:50 <tswett> I like NFU and think it should replace NBG.
06:01:24 <tswett> Then again, maybe category theory doesn't work so well in NFU?
06:01:26 <coppro> Bike: Regular choice except it applies to all classes, not just sets
06:01:52 <Bike> That is pretty cool.
06:02:12 <coppro> tswett: stratified formulas? ewwww
06:03:08 <tswett> C'mon, stratified formulas are great.
06:03:48 <tswett> I've completely forgotten why anyone would ever want a non-stratified formula.
06:04:15 <tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo
06:06:01 <coppro> `addquote < tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo
06:06:08 <HackEgo> 872) < tswett> You know what, I'm really sleepy and I should go to bed *right now*. I'm not even going to bo
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06:12:00 <oklopol> you computer scientists always have such massive boners for set & category theory
06:13:40 <oklopol> i mostly wonder why mathematicians usually don't have equal boners for these things
06:13:58 <Jafet> I also blame reductionism
06:14:08 <coppro> oklopol: I am a mathematician
06:14:49 <oklopol> i'm mostly going by what i've seen in cs conferences versus what i've seen among mathematicians in our department
06:15:06 <coppro> oklopol: deparments are not necessarily representative
06:15:10 <oklopol> which is a somewhat silly comparison yeah
06:15:12 <coppro> I don't think my school has a set theorist
06:15:19 <coppro> and we have an entire faculty of mathematics
06:15:30 <coppro> (we do, however, have several logicians, and perhaps they count
06:16:49 <oklopol> i guess just cellular automata, combinatorics on words, analytic number theory, functional analysis and coding theory
06:16:59 <oklopol> maybe ten more i just didn't come up with
06:17:01 <coppro> my school is kinda big on graph theory
06:17:47 <coppro> and other combinatorics stuff
06:17:50 <oklopol> oh right one guy in our dep wrote a book on two structures which are basically graphs (although perhaps you study slightly more coding-y stuff)
06:18:09 <coppro> actually there's a bit of hilarious history there
06:18:15 <coppro> you've heard of bill tutte?
06:18:25 <oklopol> well i've heard of tutte's formula
06:18:46 <coppro> so he was at the University of Toronto
06:19:57 * Sgeo pokes Bike into #clojure
06:20:21 <coppro> in the first major hiring coup of the Department of Combinatorics and Optimization, UW successfully managed to get Tutte to come over
06:20:23 <shachaf> Can you poke the Clojure out of this channel and into #clojure while you're at it?
06:20:33 <coppro> 5 years before the department (or even the faculty) existed, mind you
06:20:53 <Bike> sgeo was responding to me about another channel, sorry
06:21:18 <coppro> yeah, I'm at *that* UW
06:21:33 <shachaf> how does it feel to be at the wrong uw
06:21:38 <coppro> the department was basically founded to get Tutte
06:21:47 <coppro> shachaf: I am at the right one
06:22:04 <shachaf> coppro: I thought you were at the east one.
06:22:29 <shachaf> The east one is the wrong one.
06:22:46 <coppro> oklopol: University of Waterloo
06:22:54 <shachaf> coppro knows which UW I'm talkin' about.
06:23:26 <shachaf> "In matroid theory he discovered the highly sophisticated homotopy theorem"
06:23:32 <shachaf> Is that different from the regular homotopy theorem?
06:25:04 <coppro> C&O recently hired Bill Cook, a graduate of the department (of like 20 years ago) who researches some piddly little problem about vagabond merchants
06:25:31 <oklopol> what's the regular homotopy theorem?
06:26:05 <shachaf> But I bet it's not as sophisticated.
06:26:08 <oklopol> in any case presumably matroid stuff is rather different from "usual stuff" since matroids are finite objects
06:27:06 <oklopol> i don't know of a homotopy theorem
06:27:17 <oklopol> pointcare's theorem is a kind of homotopy theorem ofc
06:27:56 <oklopol> it states that if you're homotopy equivalent to the boundary of a 3-dimensional ball then you're homeomorphic to it
06:28:41 <oklopol> (homeomorphic being the usual topological equivalence, homotopy equivalence is somewhat more crazy, but easier to compute supposedly)
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06:52:11 <oklopol> matroids are awesome, you have paths in a finite set and shit
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06:53:46 <coppro> oklopol: yeah, matroid theory is pretty sweet
06:53:53 <coppro> Taking a course in it this summer
06:53:56 <oklopol> i guess you do in graph theory as well but i'm used to that
06:54:19 <coppro> *I'm sort of sad it's a grad student teaching it though
06:54:57 <coppro> I have one of the department's eminent matroid theorists as a prof this term in graph theory (and second-year optimization, oddly) and he's quite good; I was hoping he'd be doing the matroid course too :(
06:55:02 <oklopol> we have a course on hyperreals starting next week :P
06:55:20 <oklopol> and nonstandard analysis in general
06:56:40 <oklopol> i talked to the prof about it, he said he decided this year that he's finally old enough to teach it.
06:57:51 <fizzie> Are there some kind of legal age limits, then?
06:57:51 <coppro> that should be pretty sweet
06:58:07 <coppro> I've touched on nonstandard arithmetic; it's cool
07:00:15 <oklopol> he quoted "All Hope Abandon Ye Of Career Development Who Enter Here" to me
07:00:37 <oklopol> which apparently is a saying among people who do nonstandard analysis.
07:02:08 <oklopol> that's not on divine comedy's wp page so i wonder if it's considered the best line in the book in the english world.
07:04:37 <oklopol> what i know about the book is 1. it has a finnish version of "All Hope Abandon Ye Who Enter Here" 2. it's really boring and eww 3. some ridiculous shit about afterlife
07:05:47 <oklopol> not only am i planning to do nonstandard analysis, i'm planning to do CA theory using it.
07:06:16 <oklopol> because CA theory is just not unpopular enough.
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07:11:26 <ion> http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/416836_4715798089966_820576442_n.jpg
07:18:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know Hackage 2 upgrades the Hackage authentication mechanism? Instead of "salted DES: perl crypt", they use "md5 (username ++ ":" ++ realm ++ ":" ++ password)".
07:20:28 <Jafet> Modernization at its best.
07:20:46 <ion> Also, is there a reason to choose MD5 for anything nowadays?
07:20:49 <shachaf> ion: I'm not sure that's as big of a concern as the "md5" bit.
07:21:13 <shachaf> I mean, username+realm is probably nearly as good as a salt at the sorts of things a salt is supposed to prevent?
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07:23:36 <shachaf> As far as I know neither of those mechanisms is very good.
07:23:57 <shachaf> ion: I use md5 to verify checksums of .isos sometimes.
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10:30:52 <ais523> why does email not have a "reply to multiple emails" option
10:31:12 <ais523> for when you get emails from more than one person asking much the same thing, who'd benefit from seeing each other's questions and your joint answers
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10:59:30 <ion> Should have used Bill once again. “EXT4 Data Corruption Bug Hits Stable Linux Kernels” http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxNDQ
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16:47:09 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: and yet there are but so many derivatives/equivalents awaiting for their well-deserved brick
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17:46:47 <rapido> are there any 'spreadsheet' like esoteric programming languages?
17:48:43 <rapido> i've created one but i want to know about prior art
17:49:11 <FreeFull> I think Excel is turing-complete
17:49:19 <FreeFull> Someone made a 3D engine in Excel
17:49:23 <ion> rapido: loeb :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a
17:49:31 <rapido> without an escape to Visual basic i believe not
17:49:38 <rapido> excel is not turing complete
17:49:58 <ion> Related: http://youtu.be/_whSnPErl7c
17:50:21 <rapido> ion: cool - but it doesn't resemble a spreadsheet
17:50:29 <FreeFull> If you're going to have a 2D gridthing language, I prefer something like Befunge over spreadsheets
17:50:42 <kmc> rapido: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/11/from-l-theorem-to-spreadsheet.html
17:51:43 <elliott> loeb is in fact spreadsheety
17:53:06 <rapido> ah, cool - thanks for the pointer to loeb
17:53:50 <rapido> i've come up with another spreadsheet language which i believe is original
17:54:01 <rapido> i'm sure you guys will know if that's the case
17:54:39 <rapido> i call it the SPREAD language
17:54:52 <rapido> this name isn't taking yes - which surprised me
17:55:19 <rapido> SPREAD introduces three new concepts to a spreadsheet
17:56:05 <rapido> 1) Instead of one single value, a cell can have more alternative values: a Set of values
17:56:11 <boily> didn't https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.misc/USKSdYN_uHk introduce the concept of using a spreadsheet?
17:56:17 <rapido> 2) Next to Numbers, Strings, Dates, etc, we have an additional cell type: the 'Spreadsheet'
17:56:44 <rapido> A cell can be named or 'Labeled' with anything - Numbers, Strings, Dates and …… spreadsheets
17:57:06 <rapido> such spreadsheet is called a higher-order spreadsheet
17:58:45 <rapido> i've written about it on my blog http://oercode.blogspot.nl/2012/10/higher-order-spreadheets.html
17:59:25 <rapido> i'm pretty sure it is an original idea - at least google doesn't show anything
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18:00:49 <rapido> i've also creating a algebra of streams - which i may or may not include in SPREAD
18:00:50 <rapido> http://oercode.blogspot.nl/2012/10/stream-algebra.html
18:01:08 <rapido> hopefully this will give you guys food for thought
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18:06:00 <rapido> i guess SPREAD is not esoteric enough
18:14:56 <rapido> i think higher-order spreadsheets are not turing complete
18:15:28 <rapido> but higher-order spreadsheets are certainly much more powerful than ordinary spreadsheets
18:18:45 <rapido> i still have a connection
18:19:05 <rapido> colloquy is not always showing that
18:20:28 <rapido> does anyone care to comment on the 'higher-order spreadsheet' idea?
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18:35:10 <FreeFull> rapido: Now have a cell that embeds a spreadsheet that has a cell that embeds the original spreadsheet
18:35:23 <rapido> you cannot express that
18:37:02 <rapido> sure, but it is impossible to construct it - given the fact that spreadsheets are values (immutable), just like immutable lists
18:37:30 <rapido> (btw, spreadsheet are not lazy values)
18:37:44 <rapido> s/spreadsheet/spreadsheets
18:38:46 <rapido> there is no tying the loop - as in a lazy functional language
18:41:04 <rapido> I also believe SPREAD can be seen as a total functional language
18:42:26 <rapido> the evaluation of a spreadsheet is lazy though (demand driven)
18:42:46 <rapido> or can be made demand driven
18:44:44 <rapido> there is no way a spreadsheet can refer to itself - it would create a cycle
18:46:25 <rapido> but it is an interesting idea to allow it
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18:55:41 <rapido> enchilada is definitely esoteric
18:57:30 <oerjan> The _whole_ enchilada?
18:58:16 <rapido> oerjan: do you know about http://www.enchiladacode.nl ?
18:58:44 <rapido> i chose the name enchilada exactly to make that pun 'the whole enchilada'
19:00:54 <rapido> i've also created the syrup language - 'a language that sticks'
19:01:03 <oerjan> tape -> tap seems an unlikely typo correction for esolang...
19:01:14 <rapido> (because it is transactional)
19:03:40 <rapido> and most recently the SPREAD language: 'get a taste of SPREAD'
19:04:03 <rapido> i still need to find a better pun for the SPREAD language
19:04:28 <rapido> naming a programming language can be difficult
19:05:07 <oerjan> i don't know, does it have condiments?
19:05:56 <rapido> SPREAD! A tasteful language
19:06:30 <oerjan> it has no deadlocks, although it does have jams
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20:28:59 <Araq> so this channel actually exists ...
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20:32:58 <coppro> it sounds to me like we're legendary or something
20:33:55 <HackEgo> lowtax: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:41:51 <impomatic> I want one of these to play with! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAXIMITE-computer-/170924771749?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item27cbe909a5
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21:00:01 <Sgeo> http://www.coderanch.com/t/580590/java/java/Laptop-battery-level-indicator-Java
21:00:27 <Sgeo> My brain just melted at the second post.
21:01:28 <kmc> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/10/dkim-vulnerability-widespread/all/
21:02:07 <kmc> tl;dr: Dude receives sufficiently incompetent recruiting email from Google that he thinks it's a puzzle, guesses that the puzzle is that google.com's 512-bit DKIM key is crackable, proceeds to crack it, spoofs email from Larry Page
21:07:42 <Sgeo> Seems like it's easy to fix, at least, just generate stronger keys
21:07:48 <Sgeo> And revoke the weak ones
21:08:40 <kmc> don't know if this is one of the applications where key revocation actually works
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21:12:55 <elliott> <kmc> tl;dr: Dude receives sufficiently incompetent recruiting email from Google that he thinks it's a puzzle, guesses that the puzzle is that google.com's 512-bit DKIM key is crackable, proceeds to crack it, spoofs email from Larry Page
21:13:07 <elliott> kmc: i got a recruiting email from google once!
21:13:45 <kmc> me too elliott
21:14:39 <elliott> kmc: apparently i am good at "haskell programming and build systems"
21:14:56 <elliott> i think the latter is because i changed ninja's configure script once to work on arch
21:16:39 <kmc> are you a ninja ninja?
21:16:45 <kmc> or are you more of a ninja rockstar
21:17:45 <elliott> kmc: there has to be someone who uses jquery who is in a rock band
21:17:54 <elliott> kmc: and who also does martial arts stuff
21:17:56 <elliott> a true jquery ninja rockstar
21:18:11 <kmc> isn't that like 50% of san francisco
21:18:27 <elliott> kmc: close... those don't count as people
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21:19:36 <kmc> unfortunately "rockstar" and "ninja" are higher standards than "in a band" and "does martial arts stuff"
21:20:23 <kmc> Christos Papadimitriou is a famous computer scientist and also wrote a graphic novel and is in a band
21:21:06 <elliott> "At UC Berkeley, in 2006, he joined a professor-and-graduate-student band called Lady X and The Positive Eigenvalues."
21:21:11 <elliott> that does not even count as a band, sorry kmc
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21:27:20 <shachaf> Did you know there's a computer scientist called "Nikolaos Bourbakis"?
21:32:38 <kmc> an actual one?
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22:58:13 * ais523 sees misleading ad on YouTube, reports it to Google
22:58:17 <ais523> just for fun, really, I don't expect much to happen
22:59:48 <ais523> Hello, Thanks for sending feedback about an ad that violates AdWords policies. Although we won't be able to respond to your feedback personally, we'll make sure it reaches the appropriate team and, if necessary, take the appropriate action.
22:59:59 <ais523> I even checked the policies to make sure it was against them
23:07:32 <shachaf> youtube is promoting automatic differentiation?!
23:09:09 <elliott> shachaf: does lens support partial lenses
23:10:35 <elliott> shachaf: probably (a -> Maybe (b, b -> a))
23:11:47 <kmc> whose ad was it?
23:12:06 <shachaf> One must differentiate between conal-style ad and edwardk-style ad.
23:13:03 <shachaf> elliott: You could turn that into (a -> (Maybe b, b -> a))
23:13:16 <shachaf> I wonder whether that would be dishonest.
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23:20:40 <Sgeo> I believe ais523 once said something about JVM being a better runtime?
23:20:40 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/11xt71/challenging_oracle_in_a_different_way_how_hard_it/
23:26:05 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: You could turn that into (a -> (Maybe b, b -> a))
23:26:09 <elliott> That's the other kind of partial lens.
23:26:21 <elliott> shachaf: It's dishonest when you have PartialLens (Either a b) a.
23:26:33 <elliott> data Foo a = Foo a String | Bar Int
23:26:42 <elliott> And try to put an Int into a Foo constructor.
23:28:26 <elliott> Sgeo: your comment seems to ignore the word "seem".
23:32:29 <Sgeo> elliott, feel free to reply on Reddit? I feel weird saying something in public and only being criticized in private
23:33:06 <elliott> also I haven't posted on reddit in a whole month
23:33:09 <elliott> that's a streak to keep up
23:36:08 <kmc> i haven't posted on reddit in like a year
23:36:08 <coppro> it takes effor not to get dragged into the shitty reddits
23:36:14 <kmc> but today i told some random person off on stack overflow
23:36:17 <kmc> so it balances out
23:36:17 <coppro> (note: the shitty reddits are not shitty)
23:36:18 <shachaf> elliott: You should ask edwardk.
23:36:20 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/11xt71/challenging_oracle_in_a_different_way_how_hard_it/c6rauet
23:36:31 <kmc> the swan and paedo
23:36:52 <Sgeo> coppro, o.O /r/netsec is shitty?
23:38:12 <Sgeo> I just claimed that elliott commented on Reddit.
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23:39:15 <elliott> coppro: all the reddits are shitty
23:39:17 <coppro> Sgeo: examples of good reddits include /r/shittyaskscience and /r/lolphp
23:39:24 <elliott> except /r/haskell is ok sometimes and /r/roguelikes too
23:39:25 * Sgeo loves /r/lolphp
23:39:37 <Sgeo> coppro, what's wrong with /r/askscience ?
23:40:11 <coppro> stackexchange sucks, I've learned this
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23:42:08 * Sgeo now has the MST3k theme in his head
23:42:26 <elliott> stackexchange doesn't suck imo
23:42:30 <elliott> very useful for a certain subset of problems
23:44:41 <shachaf> elliott: edwardk is in #haskell
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23:46:24 <elliott> type Lens a b c d = forall f. Functor f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b
23:46:38 <elliott> forall f. Functor f => (c -> f c) -> a -> f a
23:46:43 <Sgeo> I should probably watch that talk on lenses
23:46:58 <elliott> (c -> Maybe c) -> a -> Maybe a
23:47:04 <elliott> but then you can't compose it properly I gues
23:47:26 <shachaf> You're using Maybe as your f?
23:49:57 <shachaf> elliott: What if you used Either, though?
23:50:41 <elliott> but don't the lens utilities set f to various things
23:50:47 <elliott> so it doesn't work if you use one that isn't universally-quantified
23:50:54 <elliott> type Traversal a b c d = forall f. Applicative f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b
23:50:57 <elliott> what if you use traverse on Maybe
23:51:01 <shachaf> Well, the way you quantify it depends on what the f is.
23:51:17 <elliott> i guess i will ask edwardk in a minute
23:51:26 <shachaf> If you want just a setter you use Identity, if you want just a getter you use Const.
23:51:45 <Sgeo> elliott, :( sorry
23:52:15 <Sgeo> edwardk left immediately after finishing talking to me
23:53:29 <Sgeo> You could @ask him
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23:54:25 <elliott> shachaf: "This isn't *quite* a legal lens." :(
23:54:55 <shachaf> Otherwise, this is a perfectly cromulent Lens.
23:54:56 <Jafet> You can't bring this lens across state lines.
23:55:09 <shachaf> elliott doesn't know what a state is
23:55:40 <Sgeo> elliott, well, at least because of me you now have a link to the slides from the recent talk if you didn't before
23:56:16 <Sgeo> Also, going to need to follow @PLT_Borat
23:57:35 <elliott> shachaf: you're a state :(
23:57:58 <shachaf> Sgeo: I think I already posted those slides.
23:59:28 <shachaf> elliott: What are "f"s that make sense other than Identity and Const?
23:59:41 <shachaf> You can use Writer to do Foldable-style things.