←2012-10-28 2012-10-29 2012-10-30→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:07 <Sgeo> olsner, good idea.
00:00:15 * Sgeo proceeds to talk about Stargate Infinity
00:00:46 <coppro> can someone kick sgeo
00:01:17 <Sgeo> Built by ancients so long ago
00:01:27 <Sgeo> the stargate lay 'till we broke the code...
00:01:33 <Phantom__Hoover> is this a rap
00:02:00 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67E-_SQLVRo
00:03:30 <olsner> wow
00:10:19 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm not watching that Sgeo
00:10:27 <Phantom__Hoover> how did you have time to find that and not finish ds9
00:10:40 <Phantom__Hoover> especially if you were midway through season 6 ffs
00:10:45 <Sgeo> 7
00:11:09 <Phantom__Hoover> THAT'S WORSE
00:11:12 <coppro> also bsg is pretty sweet
00:11:46 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I forgot where I left off and some of the episodes are a bit fillerish
00:12:12 <Phantom__Hoover> you mean vic don't you
00:12:57 <Sgeo> I don't remember
00:13:09 <Sgeo> But yeah, Vic counts as filler
00:13:30 <Phantom__Hoover> until only a paper moon
00:14:49 <shachaf> kmc: So you're going to do a cryptography CTF?
00:17:29 <kmc> probably not
00:18:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: did sgeo really stop watching ds9
00:18:21 <shachaf> :-(
00:18:33 <Phantom__Hoover> yes
00:18:34 <Phantom__Hoover> yes he did
00:18:43 <Phantom__Hoover> right as the dominion war was at its height
00:18:45 <Phantom__Hoover> gj sgeo
00:18:46 <Sgeo> I intend to resume eventually
00:21:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
00:34:42 <Phantom__Hoover> where, roughly, did you actually stop?
00:35:07 <Phantom__Hoover> please tell me you at least watched the siege of ar-558
00:37:29 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:52:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:21:50 <zzo38> Finally I fixed FamicomHDL. writeCart works now, and Language.FamicomHDL.Logic works now.
01:23:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:38:46 <Arc_Koen> this anubis guy has watched star wars too much
01:39:12 <Arc_Koen> first he has his jedi-sith duel against michael shanks
01:39:42 <Arc_Koen> then they found this darth vader-looking "super soldier"
01:39:54 <Arc_Koen> and then darth vader turns out to be a clone from an army of clones
01:47:24 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
02:00:54 <Sgeo> I wish I remembered what episode I stopped at
02:12:05 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
02:29:03 <Sgeo> I definitely saw It's Only a Paper Moon
02:29:22 <quintopia> paper moon was a pretty good movie
02:33:18 <Sgeo> Tempted to paste in a Clojure oddity, but I have a feeling it won't be appreciated
02:33:35 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm, it makes Clojure look like a Lisp-2, if it were shown without any other context
02:47:17 <zzo38> Now I added Language.FamicomHDL.Cartridge
02:48:09 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> ,(let [do 5] (do do))
02:48:09 <Sgeo> <clojurebot> 5
02:48:15 <Sgeo> I consider this behavior to be a Clojure wart
02:48:28 <zzo38> You can write something like (andSignal [ppuRead, ppuWrite] >>= connect irqTrig) makes it trigger an interrupt whenever the PPU attempts to read or write anything. Is that how you would use a hardware description language?
02:48:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you explain it better?
02:49:12 <Sgeo> No, because until just this second, I thought I understood it, but I don't
02:50:58 <Sgeo> Clojure is currently acting like a Lisp-2 where functions share a namespace with lexicals but macros and special forms are in their own little world
02:52:07 <Bike> there's a reason after a while they just call them lisp-n
02:52:29 <Sgeo> Clojure is supposedly a Lisp-1.
02:53:03 <Sgeo> Acting like a Lisp-2 a portion of the time is, as far as I'm concerned, broken behavior.
02:53:27 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe it's clojail breaking up, lemme see
02:53:40 <Bike> first-class special forms are a recipe for hilarity
02:54:01 <Sgeo> But this behavior is extending to macros too
02:55:01 <Sgeo> It's Clojail
02:56:16 <Sgeo> (The sandboxing that one of the bots uses. And the other bot is offline)
03:00:59 <Sgeo> Should I summarize?
03:01:21 <Sgeo> Or does no one care?
03:16:43 <zzo38> Maybe someone does care.
03:19:53 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:47:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, unless you're one of them, it's unlikely
03:48:24 <zzo38> Maybe someone who read the log will care in future.
03:48:32 <zzo38> Maybe I care too; I don't know.
03:53:54 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:00:09 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:09:23 -!- rapido has joined.
05:14:33 <kmc> "This is my first SF riot. Do we have a VC-funded artisanal coffee shop sponsoring it yet? What’s the hashtag? Where do I park my bike?"
05:25:58 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:28:57 <Sgeo> What's so hard about cache invalidation?
05:35:23 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
05:37:23 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:44:40 <zzo38> I read about esolang "Muxcomp". Can something like this be made for a VLIW microcode, accessing the internal cache memory?
05:47:43 -!- rapido has joined.
05:53:31 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
06:39:49 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
06:43:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
06:55:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
06:56:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:04:13 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
07:21:48 <Deewiant> @tell elliott I didn't donate. :-P
07:21:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:22:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: TRAITOR.
07:22:39 <fizzie> Traitor to the CAUSE.
07:23:11 <shachaf> monqy: did you donate
07:23:18 <monqy> donate to what
07:24:05 <shachaf> idk my bff jill
07:24:15 <fizzie> To D.
07:24:38 <shachaf> To D is the D I am going to sleep.
07:24:38 <coppro> two very awesome things:
07:24:42 <coppro> 1) the Mandelbrot set
07:24:56 <coppro> 2) Sibelius' symphony no. 1, movement 3
07:31:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:34:10 <Jafet> 3) Psilocybin
07:34:51 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: blind).
07:35:03 <fizzie> 4) People who can't count
07:35:34 <Jafet> 6) Lies
07:36:37 <fizzie> 5) Unordered lists
07:48:23 <Sgeo> I think I have enough water for a few days
07:48:28 <Sgeo> 5 soda bottles filled with water
08:21:06 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
08:57:07 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:15:19 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
10:00:39 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
10:03:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:07:47 -!- ogrom has joined.
11:15:14 -!- ogrom has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:36:14 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:38:09 <barts_> Sgeo: are you preparing for a nuclear holocaust?
11:42:34 <ion> http://asunnot.oikotie.fi/card/all-media?card_id=7524781
11:46:11 <ion> Linux beats Windows (other)! It’s truly the year of Linux on the desktop! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
11:47:22 <shachaf> whoa, dude
11:50:06 <FreeFull> Linux won't be ready for the desktop for at least 10 more years, unless there is someone who will grab it, twist it into something that people want and put it on machines everywhere
11:53:41 <shachaf> ion: What about OS/2?
11:55:42 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:55:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:55:58 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
12:12:29 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
12:13:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
12:25:48 <ion> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/64582_10151277436123707_560425104_n.jpg
12:37:35 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
13:09:21 -!- boily has joined.
13:25:00 -!- Frooxius has joined.
13:25:02 -!- Frooxius has quit (Client Quit).
13:25:17 -!- Frooxius has joined.
13:29:07 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:30:38 <ais523> @messages
13:30:38 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
13:57:12 -!- ogrom has joined.
13:59:55 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:01:42 -!- boily has joined.
14:02:07 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
14:07:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:08:31 -!- atriq has joined.
15:11:50 <atriq> @ping
15:11:50 <lambdabot> pong
15:19:25 <Arc_Koen> so there are all those languages which are supposedly "stack-based" but that include instructions like "move top element to bottom" or "move bottom element to top" or "reverse stack"
15:19:44 <Arc_Koen> shouldn't they be in the deque-based category?
15:20:11 <tswett> Well, the data structure they use is *based* on a stack...
15:21:27 <Arc_Koen> so it's stack-based-based
15:25:59 <Arc_Koen> (also you could argue that if the reverse instruction has a linear complexity, it's definitely a stack, but if you're actually using a deque you can make it constant time)
15:28:28 -!- elliott has joined.
15:31:18 <Jafet> Complexity? You guys should work toward simplicity
15:32:13 <Jafet> Or simpliciality
15:32:36 <kmc> no you shuold work towards being awesome
15:32:41 <kmc> it's all anyone talks about these days
15:33:34 <shachaf> how do i do that
15:33:57 <shachaf> hi elliott
15:34:06 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
15:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> O(awesome)
15:35:21 <kmc> shachaf: this django-confirmation library generates an email confirmation key like so:
15:35:23 <kmc> confirmation_key = sha1(str(os.urandom(12)) + str(email_address)).hexdigest()
15:35:25 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, if you figure out a non-trivial way of having an algorithm that operates in O(awesome) time or space, I will be amazed
15:35:28 <kmc> i cannot figure out why
15:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> what's non-trivial
15:36:18 <atriq> Anything other than renaming "n" to "awesome"
15:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> rename n to e
15:37:12 <shachaf> kmc: It's probably not particularly terrible, as such.
15:37:15 <Phantom_Hoover> O(n^2)!
15:37:17 <shachaf> I don't see the point of using the email there.
15:38:30 <Jafet> > 256^12
15:38:31 <lambdabot> 79228162514264337593543950336
15:38:52 <kmc> i don't think it's worse than a 12 byte random confirmation key
15:39:04 <kmc> which should be enough
15:39:14 <kmc> but it's very cargo-culty :/
15:39:41 <shachaf> Yes.
15:39:43 <Jafet> Hey, sha1 doesn't really decrease the entropy. Okay, it probably does a little.
15:41:57 <kmc> yeah, the email is like the one piece of information you're guaranteed the attacker knows
15:42:08 <kmc> in a typical "forging a signup from someone else" attack
15:42:28 <kmc> if anything, hashing in the email makes it harder to notice if the other bit breaks somehow
15:42:41 <kmc> like how Debian OpenSSL was throwing the PID into the entropy pot just for laffs
15:42:50 <kmc> and that ended up being the *only* entropy
15:43:19 <kmc> so Debian would only generate one of 2^16 certs, but that's enough that nobody noticed for a while :/
15:44:34 <Jafet> I thought it also used the time
15:45:43 <kmc> maybe
15:49:20 <Jafet> Entropy should be tracked through the type system or something
16:07:29 <kmc> http://research.swtch.com/openssl is a good writeup of that fiasco
16:08:19 <shachaf> kmc: Is something like that included in your CTF?
16:09:53 <kmc> maybe
16:10:12 <kmc> the one i'm not doing
16:10:33 <shachaf> kmc: Well, you wrote up a list of suggestions, right?
16:10:38 <shachaf> Are you just going to let it go to waste?
16:10:40 <kmc> yes
16:10:55 <shachaf> :'(
16:11:01 <kmc> i can send them to you
16:11:56 <kmc> hmm, but including the PID is a good idea if your process is going to fork() and you have no other way of getting separate entropy to each
16:12:03 <kmc> but you should probably that thing I said instead
16:12:43 <kmc> why doesn't OpenSSL on Linux read straight out of /dev/urandom
16:12:52 <shachaf> What does it do?
16:12:57 <shachaf> Ask you to supply randomness?
16:13:28 <kmc> "As a general rule, /dev/urandom should be used for everything except long-lived GPG/SSL/SSH keys"
16:13:35 <kmc> so okay, they would need some way to switch to /dev/random for those
16:13:40 <kmc> and their API might not be expressive enough
16:13:49 <kmc> shachaf: it has its own PRNG seeded from /dev/urandom
16:14:01 <kmc> er actually /dev/random
16:14:11 <kmc> perhaps once upon a time, the kernel PRNG for /dev/urandom was much worse
16:14:16 <kmc> today I think it is considered to be really good
16:14:42 <shachaf> Is it considered really good cross-platform?
16:15:44 <shachaf> I haven't used OpenSSL personally but I hear its API is pretty low-level and bad.
16:16:41 <kmc> so i have heard as well
16:16:57 <atriq> That reminds me
16:17:03 <atriq> I was going to write a Haskell interface for the Tumblr API at some point
16:17:10 <kmc> hm, maybe the problem is that you can't get entropy estimates out of urandom
16:17:14 <kmc> surely there must be an ioctl for that :)
16:18:14 <shachaf> root can feed entropy to /dev/random
16:20:36 <shachaf> kmc: I'd like to see the CTF thing if you're not going to be doing anything else with it.
16:25:18 <kmc> shachaf: how?
16:25:28 <shachaf> How?
16:25:39 <kmc> how feed
16:25:46 <shachaf> Oh.
16:25:50 <shachaf> I think just by writing into it.
16:26:09 <kmc> heh
16:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i find it kind of cute when redditors try to justify video game review scores by saying "well it's like at school, 70 is average"
16:26:40 <kmc> but can you say how much entropy was in those bytes
16:26:45 <kmc> you can with the OpenSSL API
16:27:00 <shachaf> but can you say it in the type system
16:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> because you know, 70% being 'average' isn't just tests being too easy
16:28:39 <kmc> are you talking about raw 70% of questions answered correctly, or about a 70% grade after curving
16:28:50 <kmc> because i don't see why either should mean the tests are too easy
16:29:38 <kmc> why should writing a test where the average student can answer only 50% of the questions instead of 70% produce better educational outcomes?
16:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> well right
16:29:51 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
16:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i shouldn't have said 'too', that was uncalled for
16:30:08 <kmc> and the curve is arbitrary, you can put the average wherever you want
16:30:20 <kmc> though i did have a few instructors who used deterministic curves made known to the class ahead of time
16:30:32 <Phantom_Hoover> but it's certainly not an innate property of tests
16:30:36 <kmc> sure
16:30:49 <kmc> there were tests in college where the average student got 20%
16:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> and it's not even a standard thing for most educational systems
16:32:10 <kmc> what i thought this internet thing was just for americans
16:32:13 <kmc> who let all these foreigners on
16:33:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not actually sure how it works in england tbh
16:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> they had to introduce a new grade a while back because an A was worthless and the universities were just ignoring exam results
16:34:22 <atriq> Yeah
16:34:32 <atriq> Silly
16:34:33 <kmc> on GCSE? or A-levels or what
16:34:47 <Phantom_Hoover> A-levels
16:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover> And GCSE but AFAIK the GCSEs are irrelevant as a qualification, they're that easy.
16:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the BBC 25% of A-level entries got an A by the end of the 2000's so...
16:36:49 <atriq> I'm pretty sure Oxford ignores them even now
16:36:49 <atriq> Both, now
16:36:49 <atriq> Not ASs
16:37:30 <kmc> so what do you do to impress oxbridge then
16:37:31 <kmc> IB?
16:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> they have interviews, for one thing
16:38:43 <kmc> i took all the AP classes and everyone told me how great it was to get college credit for them
16:38:46 <Phantom_Hoover> and often require relevant work experience
16:38:52 <kmc> and then i went to a college that didn't accept a single fucking one
16:39:23 <shachaf> I should probably apply to university.
16:39:33 <shachaf> I think now is the time to do it.
16:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> apply to warwick we can be university friends
16:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> it'll probably be cheaper than the us, too!
16:41:17 <kmc> school in the US is too damn expensive
16:41:29 <kmc> though the effect is overblown by foreign commentators
16:41:38 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:42:10 <kmc> when they say "omg it costs $40,000 a year to go to school in the US" they mean "to go to the most elite private schools, if you get zero financial aid"
16:43:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: How much does it cost to go to Warwick?
16:43:47 <kmc> i'm not sure it's a bad thing to let the super rich spend a lot of money on education, as long as there's a system of taxation and public schools to ensure everyone gets a good education
16:44:23 <kmc> but it's probably a bad thing that private schools have such a monopoly on the top tier of higher education in the US
16:44:55 <kmc> there's only one public school that competes basically
16:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Either 14k or 18k a year, depending on the degree.
16:45:21 <kmc> n.b. i have been advised that "private school" means something crazy in the UK, please to substituting for appropriate crazy word, thanks in advance
16:45:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I'm an EU citizen, by the way.
16:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> 9k then
16:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Free if you go to Scotland.
16:46:40 <coppro> that's about a thousand pounds more than my school
16:46:45 <coppro> assuming you're counting tuition only
16:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
16:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Although St Andrews does say 'EU domiciled'.
16:47:20 <coppro> I pay about $10500 (canadian) per year
16:47:34 <coppro> maybe closer to $11000
16:47:44 <coppro> I don't like to think about it too much :P
16:49:14 <copumpkin> kmc: the one public school being berkeley?
16:49:17 <kmc> yeah
16:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Student loans here are kind of ridiculous though.
16:49:42 <shachaf> I could probably go to Berkeley as an in-state student now.
16:49:49 -!- elliott has joined.
16:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't affect your credit score, you repay like 2% of your income over 21k and if you manage not to pay it off before you retire it gets written off.
16:50:54 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: this is some silly accounting dodge on the part of the govt right
16:51:08 <kmc> so that they can hand out money for university but keep it on the books as something they are owed back
16:51:13 <elliott> 15:42:41: <kmc> like how Debian OpenSSL was throwing the PID into the entropy pot just for laffs
16:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I think so.
16:51:19 <elliott> Didn't upstream OpenSSL do this, though?
16:51:25 <elliott> It's just that Debian accidentally disabled all the other entropy sources.
16:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially funny when they raised tuition fees as part of 'austerity measures' when it just means they end up paying universities more.
16:51:46 <shachaf> elliott: See kmc's link above: http://research.swtch.com/openssl
16:51:52 <kmc> elliott: yeah
16:52:34 <elliott> 16:13:28: <kmc> "As a general rule, /dev/urandom should be used for everything except long-lived GPG/SSL/SSH keys"
16:52:34 <elliott> 16:13:35: <kmc> so okay, they would need some way to switch to /dev/random for those
16:52:44 <elliott> kmc: I thought /dev/urandom was actually recommended for cryptographic stuff over /dev/random?
16:52:53 <shachaf> elliott: *over* /dev/random?
16:52:54 <kmc> well i'm quoting man 4 random there
16:53:10 <elliott> 16:18:14: <shachaf> root can feed entropy to /dev/random
16:53:12 <shachaf> As far as I know when you're not concerned about blocking /dev/random is generally better.
16:53:19 <kmc> man 4 man, man 4 woman, man 4 random
16:53:20 <elliott> IIRC any user can write to /dev/random?
16:53:27 <elliott> It just magically discards the non-random bits or something.
16:53:30 <elliott> Maybe that's /dev/urandom.
16:53:37 <copumpkin> how do you detect which bits are non-random?
16:53:42 <elliott> shachaf: -- also that's what I thought but then I saw someone say that /dev/urandom was recommended or something.
16:53:46 <elliott> It was on LWN so it looked authoritative.
16:53:50 <coppro> copumpkin: compare them to the output of a PRNG
16:53:57 <elliott> copumpkin: Magic, I guess. I don't know how randomness or cryptography or anything works.
16:54:01 <shachaf> elliott: For most things urandom is good enough.
16:54:05 <elliott> But I remember hearing something like that.
16:54:12 <copumpkin> coppro: so you discard everything with overwhelming likelihood? :P
16:54:14 <shachaf> copumpkin: The 0 bits are non-random, the 1 bits are random.
16:54:19 <copumpkin> shachaf: makes sense
16:54:29 <elliott> shachaf: Why are you repeating yourself? I know, and that's what I thought too, but then I heard someone say otherwise and it sounded like that was a common myth or something. I don't know.
16:54:36 <shachaf> The 2 bits you just discard.
16:54:37 <coppro> copumpkin: no, you compare each successive bit and only keep the random ones
16:54:51 <kmc> coming this summer: Myth or Manpage?
16:55:04 <shachaf> elliott: My imperssion was that /dev/urandom is usually recommended for most cryptographic because it's "good enough".
16:55:12 <shachaf> And you really don't want to block in most cases.
16:55:27 <coppro> so if /dev/urandom gives 0010101010110, and a PRNG gives 0101101011010, you know that the random bits are 01010110
16:55:46 <elliott> Anyway I can write to /dev/random here.
16:55:48 <elliott> As non-rfoot.
16:55:49 <elliott> root.
16:55:53 <copumpkin> o.O
16:56:28 <kmc> so it probably takes your bits, but doesn't increment the entropy estimate
16:57:34 <shachaf> Is there some part of the randomness pool that's reserved for particular users?
16:57:40 <shachaf> So that no one can DoS /dev/random
16:58:39 <shachaf> /dev/umad
16:58:47 -!- barts__ has joined.
16:59:57 -!- Vorpal has joined.
17:00:33 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't get to sleep all night. :-(
17:00:39 <shachaf> what should I do
17:01:10 <barts__> shachaf: down five red bulls
17:01:21 <shachaf> barts__: r u cheater
17:01:42 -!- barts_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:02:27 <barts__> i am barts_
17:02:32 -!- Bike has joined.
17:02:51 <shachaf> is barts_ cheater
17:03:37 <copumpkin> is this dog?
17:03:47 <elliott> yes barts__ is cheater
17:04:01 <barts__> shachaf: if you gaze for long into the abyss
17:04:39 <elliott> it is pretty obvious
17:04:57 <shachaf> barts__: either say yes or say no
17:05:15 -!- atriq has joined.
17:05:43 <barts__> if i don't, will you freeze forever, stuck on blocking input?
17:06:31 <shachaf> maybe
17:06:47 <atriq> elliott, is it too late to change my mind about accepting the responsibility of choosing the featured language?
17:06:49 <barts__> I answer _|_
17:08:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:08:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:13:07 <ais523> barts__ is definitely cheater, btw
17:13:20 <ais523> no real reason in asking because he/she's just going to dodge the question indefinitely
17:13:53 <kmc> shachaf: why not
17:14:28 <kmc> hey let's all flip out and lose our shit completely because somebody who may or may not be cheater has said three inoffensive things
17:14:42 <kmc> am i winning at #esoteric yet
17:14:47 <shachaf> kmc: ?
17:15:12 <elliott> instead we should just let blatant ban evasion be an insult to our intelligence by pretending it's not obvious
17:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> hey kmc shut up about you not getting how bans work
17:15:15 <elliott> agreed kmc
17:15:27 * shachaf is not insulted, only amused.
17:15:38 <shachaf> I don't care if cheater is here.
17:15:40 <barts__> i thought this was the channel for whichever subset of ##electronics, #esoteric, and #haskell-blah would put up with me
17:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, ban barts__ if you know he's cheater, he was banned for a reason
17:17:10 <barts__> or did i get that wrong, kmc
17:17:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well he's clearly a past-regular
17:18:04 <atriq> He could be cpressey for all we know
17:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
17:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey connecting from germany
17:18:18 <atriq> (he probably isn't cpressey)
17:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> using cheater's isp
17:18:30 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, where am I connecting from?
17:18:52 <ais523> if we banned cpressey by mistake, thinking he was someone else, it'd be easy to prove his identity and get him unbanned again
17:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, italy?
17:20:46 <atriq> Spai
17:20:46 <atriq> n
17:20:48 <ais523> spain
17:20:54 <barts__> the max planck instutute *is* in germany
17:20:55 <ais523> bleh, you answered before I figured it out
17:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> thank you ais i was confused there for a second
17:20:57 <ais523> that was so close, too
17:21:06 <atriq> Specifically, Ibiza
17:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought he was connecting from spai and was answering in short form to an earlier query
17:21:40 <ais523> specifically, valencia
17:22:07 <ais523> at least, that's where the ISP reports, it can be inaccurate
17:22:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
17:22:55 <atriq> La Presidente Hotel, Portinatx, Ibiza
17:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK ANYWAY
17:23:05 <atriq> If any of you want to stalk me
17:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> we were previously talking about cheater and his blatant ban evasion
17:23:27 <barts__> atriq: spagnolo? parli italiano?
17:23:36 <atriq> barts__, non
17:23:38 <ais523> atriq: if it's a hotel IP, then the other guests in the hotel have been surprisingly well behaved
17:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys
17:23:55 <barts__> atriq: scusa
17:24:07 <atriq> barts__, tu stinko es
17:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe one of the ops could actually give a damn about channel administration for once
17:25:02 <barts__> e "puzza", atriq :)
17:25:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:26:10 <atriq> barts__, eres infiel_?
17:26:24 <barts__> non capisco
17:26:57 <atriq> Est Cheater_?
17:27:02 <barts__> scusa
17:27:13 <barts__> non conosco infidel
17:27:35 <atriq> Usted no va a responder en Ingls, no se contestar en espaol ...
17:27:47 <atriq> Es casi como si tuviera algo que ocultar.
17:28:17 <barts__> jajaj
17:28:26 <barts__> non c'e credo..
17:29:38 <barts__> vuoi esplicare?
17:32:39 <atriq> @ping
17:32:39 <lambdabot> pong
17:35:39 <barts__> scusa atriq, c'e un problem'?
17:37:58 <kmc> butts
17:38:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:38:16 <barts__> kmc: oh, excuse-me, kmc, have I misquoted you above ?.
17:39:24 -!- rapido has joined.
17:40:31 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
17:43:17 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:46:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:57:31 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
18:01:27 <Jafet> Is that turing complete?
18:03:09 <ais523> barts__: you are indeed still being useless
18:03:13 <ais523> why /shouldn't/ I ban you again
18:03:28 <Arc_Koen> one of the pixels on my screen is MOVING
18:04:44 <Arc_Koen> it's yellowish and six-legged
18:04:57 <ais523> Arc_Koen: are you sure it's a pixel
18:05:01 <ais523> rather than, say, an insect?
18:05:10 <barts__> i made contributions to the esolang wiki.
18:05:42 <Arc_Koen> well it was the right size
18:06:03 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
18:06:06 <Arc_Koen> up until I noticed it was moving it was a well-behaved pixel
18:06:30 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Did it change color depending on the contents of your display?
18:06:37 <ais523> barts__: were they useful?
18:06:50 <ais523> also, under what name?
18:06:53 <Arc_Koen> I wasn't paying much attention to it
18:06:59 <barts__> under the name Arc_Koen
18:07:10 <barts__> he named his latest language under my suggestion
18:07:26 <Arc_Koen> is that you http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Arc_Koen
18:07:34 <barts__> no it is you
18:07:51 <barts__> i just said under what name the latest contribution was
18:07:56 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:08:12 <Arc_Koen> (though http://esolangs.org/wiki/Circlefuck indeed had its name suggested by barts)
18:11:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:13:24 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about adding an emmental-like instruction-rewriting feature to my circlefuck implementation
18:13:33 <Arc_Koen> then I realized I hadn't implemented it
18:15:21 <barts__> you could then call it "La ronde des fromages"
18:15:31 <barts__> which is "the roundness of the cheese"
18:16:42 <barts__> which plays on your language's topology and where it's derived from.
18:17:16 <barts__> alternatively, "larondedesfromagesfuck".
18:20:31 <barts__> i must depart.
18:27:12 <Arc_Koen> hey do you guys see any difference between http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braincrash and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbrain ?
18:27:53 <Arc_Koen> appart from the fact that one uses +-><.,[] and the other ><+-.,[]
18:30:18 <Arc_Koen> be back later
18:33:31 <ais523> Arc_Koen: this reminds me of BrainFuck
18:33:40 <ais523> or was it just Brainfuck, with a capital B?
18:33:50 <ais523> it's a BF derivative that doesn't change any instructions at all
18:33:55 <ais523> the sort of extreme of pointless BF derivatives
18:41:13 <kmc> branfuck
18:41:19 <kmc> there's no i in branfuck
18:43:32 <Phantom__Hoover> branefuck
18:44:18 <Phantom__Hoover> the m-theory esolang
18:44:28 <copumpkin> bainfuck capital?
18:45:20 <Phantom__Hoover> banefuck, the hip new batman slashfic
18:45:48 <Jafet> I believe, in fact, that there isn't already an 11-dimensional esolang. Or other sort of language for that matter.
18:47:29 <Phantom__Hoover> is Jafet zzo38
18:47:53 <Jafet> With our patented Planck units, creating programs will be as simple as nailing two-by-fours together. Which is to say it's incredibly error-prone and involves manual work.
18:48:02 <Jafet> Am I not zzo38
18:51:34 <kmc> http://hint.fm/wind/ wow this is pretty
18:51:37 -!- Sanky has joined.
18:52:06 <coppro> yes
18:52:08 <coppro> also sort of scary
18:52:30 <coppro> I'm happy I'm not in NY
18:53:26 <Phantom__Hoover> my parents have friends in annapolis
18:53:42 <Phantom__Hoover> havn't thought to ask about them though
18:54:41 <Phantom__Hoover> what's the deal with that big turbulent patch north of charlott
18:54:44 <Phantom__Hoover> *charlotte
18:58:46 * FireFly is in NY
18:58:59 <FireFly> Poorly-timed week-long holiday, this
19:00:28 <Phantom__Hoover> how bad is it
19:01:05 -!- tinkerer has joined.
19:01:06 <FireFly> Rainy and somewhat windy at the moment, though as I've understood it'll get worse during the evening/night
19:01:39 <kmc> are you in NYC?
19:02:00 <FireFly> Yup, on manhattan
19:04:04 <kmc> it must suck that there's no subway
19:05:08 <kmc> they shut it down here too (boston)
19:10:26 <Arc_Koen> kmc: your link is incredibly slow to load :(
19:14:04 <zzo38> "The entire execution unit for muxcomp64 would be extremely small, very close to 16K transistors (not gates, transistors)." I want to buy it please.
19:15:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:15:55 <AnotherTest> Hello
19:17:10 <Arc_Koen> hey shouldn't we try something similar to corewar but with esolangs?
19:17:36 <Arc_Koen> like a giant funge area
19:18:05 <elliott> it has been tried
19:18:24 <Phantom__Hoover> !bfjoust
19:18:25 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
19:19:19 -!- rapido has joined.
19:20:30 <Arc_Koen> hrm http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
19:38:44 <ais523> Arc_Koen: BF Joust is awesome, you should play it
19:39:31 <Arc_Koen> EgoBot: ​Score for Arc_Koen_koen_very_unsubtle_1_bfjoust: 0.0
19:40:01 <Arc_Koen> is there something I did not understand? my program was >>>>>>>>>(++>)*21
19:40:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:43:15 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
19:52:45 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:06:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:07:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:19:41 -!- tinkerer has left ("Already Gone").
20:41:59 -!- rapido has joined.
20:46:48 -!- rapido has quit (Client Quit).
20:52:20 -!- rapido has joined.
20:53:56 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how programmers use the term "Unicode" to mean alternately "non-ASCII", "non-ISO-8859-1", "UTF-8", "UTF-8 but not if any of the bytes are less that 0x80", or (very occasionally) "Unicode"?
20:54:08 <kmc> not if all of the bytes are less than*
21:00:14 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
21:00:39 <olsner> it also often refers to one of UCS-2 or UTF-16
21:02:20 <kmc> ah yes, in Windows-land and Java-land
21:02:26 <kmc> places to avoid for sure
21:03:54 <olsner> I guess the worst part is that it usually really means "either UCS-2 or UTF-16", without actually knowing which one
21:04:12 <kmc> yep
21:05:38 <kmc> I may enjoy being pedantic a little too much but I'm also pretty sure that character encoding is one of those areas where you can either be pedantic or get confused all the time.
21:06:07 <kmc> or not be confused but make software which just doesn't work for people who don't speak English
21:06:22 <olsner> indeed
21:07:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:08:23 <boily> my litmus test when developing is that if japanese goes through without getting garbled, then I shouldn't worry at all about encoding.
21:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> thus efficiently testing only the japanese section of your encoding
21:09:40 <kmc> eh a lot of existing japanese texts are in weird encodings though
21:09:59 <kmc> your software shouldn't be obliged to support EUC-JP or Shift-JIS
21:10:13 <kmc> Japan moreso than other places has not switched over to the glorious Unicode new world order
21:10:23 <kmc> probably because their shit actually kinda worked before
21:10:24 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:10:30 <barts__> Jafet: Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck is 11-dimensional.
21:10:33 <kmc> except if you wanted to send files between Windows and UNIX of course
21:10:36 <boily> that's kinda the point.
21:11:16 <olsner> japanese script should be fairly trivial once you decode it though, and character encoding is just the very first little step
21:11:35 <barts__> japan has single houses with 50 and 60 hz installations in 230 and 120V each, all using the same kind of outlet.
21:12:02 <kmc> haha true
21:12:03 <barts__> they're no fans of standards.
21:12:12 <kmc> yeah that's true olsner
21:12:19 <kmc> no joining, no combining characters, no case (!)
21:12:30 <kmc> probably some normalization though
21:12:41 <barts__> good luck counting.
21:12:57 <olsner> there is that han unification thingy
21:12:58 <kmc> barts__: more like the US is no fans of existing standards when we burn down your country and rebuild it
21:13:11 <barts__> unless you define a kanji to be S.
21:13:45 <kmc> for a while there was talk of making Iraq use CDMA
21:13:54 <kmc> i don't think they actually went through with it
21:13:58 <boily> aren't they on thurayya?
21:13:59 <olsner> i.e. sabotage their communications network?
21:14:47 <kmc> it was considered highly scandalous in the USA that some US govt money might go to systems built by COMMUNIST TERRORIST-APPEASING FRANCE AND GERMANY
21:15:08 <kmc> you know back when were were really upset that they tried to talk us out of shooting ourselves in the foot in the most enormous way possible
21:19:13 <barts__> i am 次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次0% sure this can be done in japanese
21:20:18 <barts__> even 次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次0%
21:20:42 <boily> next-next-next-next-next-0% ?????
21:20:49 <barts__> yes.
21:20:56 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:21:11 <elliott> but what does that have to do with anything
21:21:13 * boily is confused as usual, and we're definitely not Friday yet.
21:21:31 <olsner> barts__: japeano numbers?
21:21:40 <copumpkin> lol
21:22:02 <barts__> piano numbers
21:22:06 <barts__> ############0
21:22:21 <ais523> yeah, that's enough
21:22:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
21:22:46 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b barts*!*@*.
21:22:52 -!- ais523 has kicked barts__ User terminated!.
21:23:54 <ais523> I should really change the default kick message
21:24:01 <elliott> i like it
21:24:10 <elliott> it's very iron fist
21:24:11 <copumpkin> why's he banned?
21:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> being cheater
21:24:36 <ais523> originally, a combination of no useful contribution and harassing a subset of channel regulars
21:24:42 <ais523> later on, for ban evasion
21:24:52 <ais523> but he hadn't been here for a while so I wanted to see if he reformed
21:25:25 <ais523> I don't really understand bad trolls
21:25:35 <ais523> good trolling can be entertaining
21:25:36 <ais523> that wasn't really
21:25:49 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe cheater is just naturally annoying
21:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> and he pretends to be a troll to act like he's totally in charge
21:26:21 <ais523> hmm
21:26:26 <ais523> /I'm/ naturally annoying
21:26:29 <ais523> but I try to suppress it
21:26:34 <ais523> rather than revel in it
21:26:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:26:42 <olsner> you should get "finnished" into the kick message somehow
21:26:53 <ais523> I changed it
21:26:55 -!- ais523 has kicked ais523 I don't have a better default kick reason, but if you're being kicked, you should know why.
21:26:59 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:27:08 <ais523> it's a very ais523 kick reason
21:27:45 <elliott> ais523: how about "hi"
21:28:02 <ais523> that makes a good non-default kick reason
21:28:08 <ais523> but it'd only work on someone who knew what it meant
21:29:33 <ais523> (short summary for people who don't know: "hi" as a non sequitur is a threat)
21:29:49 <ais523> (or at least, an indication of disapproval)
21:29:59 <olsner> a threat of what? further conversation?
21:30:34 <ais523> it's not a particularly specific threat
21:30:45 <ais523> I think what it usually threatens is more his
21:31:05 <ais523> and possibly a breach of friendship if the offending behaviour happens too long
21:31:30 <olsner> `? hi
21:31:41 <HackEgo> hi? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:32:08 <ais523> OK, I think that response makes a decent threat, too
21:32:15 <ais523> specifically, the smiley
21:32:21 <ais523> (yes I know it does that for all unrecognised input)
21:33:44 <olsner> the smiley looks a bit like a lop-eyed zombie coming to embrace and devour you
21:34:24 <olsner> (while repeating hi over and over)
21:41:18 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined.
22:06:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:24:08 -!- augur has joined.
22:29:36 -!- augur_ has joined.
22:32:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:33:00 <Arc_Koen> zombie little girls coming at you saying "Hi. Wanna play with me?" and what your really hear is BRAAAAAAINS
22:44:27 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:50:55 <olsner> hmm, I wonder if they have or could release macgyver in HD
22:51:21 <olsner> ... not that it would be worth it or anything
22:57:42 <Arc_Koen> be careful what you ask for
22:57:43 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:57:48 <olsner> imdb does say it was filmed on "Film"
22:57:52 <Arc_Koen> imagine if they remade it
22:57:56 <Arc_Koen> in 3d
23:03:30 <kmc> shachaf: Apparently Zephyr uses the same "UTF-8 or maybe ISO-8859-1" encoding that's popular on IRC :/
23:04:26 <kmc> I wonder what the prevalence is in ISO-8859 texts of byte sequences that are also valid UTF-8
23:04:29 <kmc> probably pretty low
23:05:08 <kmc> it helps that half (?) of the UTF-8 continuation bytes are unprintable control characters in ISO-8859 (though not in Windows-1252)
23:11:02 <FreeFull> Yay ♥ UTF-8
23:11:37 <shachaf> kmc: I've never used Zephyr.
23:12:02 <shachaf> Do you have to be at MIT to use it or something? I couldn't work it out once.
23:12:19 <olsner> it might've been better to use the ascii characters for continuation bytes, to make it more obvious when you're mixing encodings the wrong way
23:13:21 <kmc> that would be a bit less stateless though
23:13:33 <olsner> just flip the msb?
23:13:49 <kmc> if you land at a random point in a UTF-8 byte stream, you can recover within one character
23:14:09 <kmc> not so if continuation bytes alias with ASCII characters
23:14:55 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
23:16:26 <shachaf> UTF-8 is pretty nice.
23:16:30 <kmc> you're right that UTF-8 being a superset of ASCII makes some problems less obvious though
23:16:40 <kmc> especially for programmers of the "i speak English and it works for me" mindset
23:17:05 <kmc> the people who always feel put-upon when others want "crazy characters"
23:17:06 <shachaf> I don't think UTF-8 would be nearly as common if it didn't have that property.
23:17:08 <kmc> yeah
23:17:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:19:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:19:40 <shachaf> kmc: Why can't all those weird people just speak English?
23:19:45 <shachaf> It would solve so many problems.
23:19:49 <kmc> yep
23:19:57 <shachaf> (When I say "weird people" I mean mathematicians, of course.)
23:20:01 <kmc> obviously
23:20:11 <elliott> shachaf: So did edwardk decide yet?
23:20:20 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't talk to him.
23:20:30 <shachaf> I just woke up, man!
23:21:27 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:29:41 <kmc> it's hurricaning
←2012-10-28 2012-10-29 2012-10-30→ ↑2012 ↑all