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00:39:20 <monqy> Gregor: where's hackego
00:39:44 <monqy> I can't welcome this guy without hackego
00:39:57 <elliott> hackego is actually online just not in #esoteric
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01:24:04 <Gregor> Sorry, Codu went down 'cause they moved the box, and apparently not everything came up right.
01:24:14 <Gregor> Also, I win Halloween: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4024164996595&l=e0321b07c2
01:24:24 <elliott> its not acceptable fix it thanks
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01:26:08 <HackEgo> noooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:26:53 <elliott> `WELCOME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL
01:26:57 <HackEgo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
01:27:05 <HackEgo> NoOdLe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
01:27:13 <Bike> that is a fantastic feature
01:27:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: not found
01:27:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
01:27:42 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes
01:27:54 <monqy> dddid someone remove stupid unicode welcome
01:28:00 <monqy> i miss stupid unicode welcome :(
01:28:47 <nooodl> now i'm curious: what's `No
01:30:09 <monqy> why is there no entry on @ it should be that quote about @. the one with the vapour.
01:30:32 <nooodl> that looks like a great command
01:30:41 <monqy> the `? command is our learndb
01:30:51 <monqy> isn't hatesgeo the one that pings everyone
01:30:53 <nooodl> monqy: i'm glad this exists
01:31:03 <elliott> well it seems to be broken
01:31:08 <monqy> i wonder what my entry is nowadays
01:31:13 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
01:31:34 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
01:32:16 <HackEgo> Sgeo invented Metaplace sex.
01:32:41 <monqy> the most important sgeo info on demand 24/7
01:59:36 <HackEgo> 345) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.>
02:09:54 <nooodl> monqy: i've met shachaf
02:10:15 <HackEgo> 2010-10-05.txt:17:49:26: <alise> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
02:11:41 <shachaf> elliott: is nooodl belgian :'(
02:11:54 <nooodl> shachaf: yes i'm sorry
02:13:29 <shachaf> I wonder whether there's a reasonable way to extend the idea of lenses/traversals/folds to imperative languages.
02:13:56 <shachaf> Like first-class lvalues with loops and things.
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02:24:49 <monqy> i dont get it shachaf i dont get it
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09:32:59 <ais523> I was just sent this by one of the other teachers on this Java module:
09:33:01 <ais523> "2) why do the students have to create both a constructor and setters to set the same values ?"
09:33:15 <ais523> OK, I can understand a student asking that because they don't understand Java
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09:33:26 <ais523> (note: the question isn't really Java-specific)
09:33:35 <ais523> I'm raging at the question "2) why do the students have to create both a constructor and setters to set the same values ?"
09:33:48 <ais523> which was sent to me by someone who's supposed to be helping me teach the course I teach
09:33:58 <shachaf> ais523: Is this teacher suspiciously tall, always seen wearing a coat, and has an unusual number of limbs?
09:34:09 <ais523> and it's a question that's both basic, and shows a lack of understanding of OO principles
09:34:39 <shachaf> ais523: Are there imperative languages with an equivalent of lenses/traversals?
09:34:44 <shachaf> What would that look like?
09:35:10 <ais523> "lenses"? not sure I understand your terminology here
09:35:32 <shachaf> Sometimes called functional references.
09:35:36 <shachaf> They're like first-class lvalues.
09:35:50 <shachaf> A traversal is like a lens that can refer to more than one value.
09:36:16 <shachaf> So you can say world.monsters.appendages.position.x += 1
09:36:26 <shachaf> But you can say world.monsters[all].appendages[all].position.x += 1
09:37:22 <coppro> ais523: imo the constructor-setter duplication is not really an OO principle, but a fundamental issue with the model of OO that poses no easy solution
09:37:47 <ais523> yeah but anyone teaching OO languages should at least know it exists
09:37:55 <coppro> that I won't disagree with
09:37:57 <ais523> asking why it's necessary from a philosophical point of view is an interesting question
09:38:29 <ais523> one obvious semi-solution is just to get the constructor to call the setters
09:38:44 <ais523> although, in general, initializing something and setting something aren't the same operation
09:38:48 <AnotherTest> "the same values". Initial values != Values you pass to setters?
09:39:14 <ais523> (for instance, initializing is linear, setting isn't unless it returns the old value)
09:40:10 <AnotherTest> but rather creating methods that actually do something more than just setting a value and checking a precondition
09:40:20 <ais523> not creating setters is fine, you just end up with a read-only object
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09:41:22 <ais523> well I was asking for a read-write object in this case
09:41:22 <AnotherTest> But you could have a method that changes some object, but doesn't directly change one field
09:41:23 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:41:30 <ais523> lambdabot: what about me?
09:41:48 <ais523> also, weird to see you talking about messages because you joined, rather than because the person you're talking to joined
09:43:03 <AnotherTest> For example, if you had a Timer, you could have an "advance" method; it wouldn't directly set a field but rather change a number of fields
09:43:25 <AnotherTest> I think that's probably a better option than just making a lot of setters
09:43:53 <AnotherTest> Furthermore, I think it's a higher level of abstraction
09:45:26 <coppro> ais523: right, that's the problem, the initialization/modification distinction is lame :(
09:46:30 <ais523> coppro: I don't really think so
09:46:41 <ais523> imagine an object that holds a filehandle as a property
09:46:49 <coppro> Sure, it exists for pragmatic reasons
09:46:49 <ais523> and the filehandle is mutable in that you can replace it with another one
09:47:01 <ais523> also, the object is responsible for holding the filehandle open and closing it when it's done
09:47:07 <coppro> but languages with immutable data handle things so much nicer
09:47:09 <ais523> a setter method needs to call close, then open a file
09:47:19 <ais523> an initializer just needs to open
09:47:28 <ais523> perhaps we should move to a paradigm with initializers and uninitializers?
09:47:41 <ais523> then the constructor calls the initializer, the destructor calls the uninitializer
09:47:44 <ais523> and a setter calls both
09:47:59 <ais523> if they're private, then the field is an always-initialized field
09:48:08 <ais523> if additionally the setter is private or nonexistent, then the field is immutable
09:50:35 <coppro> that seems more natural
09:50:54 <coppro> of course, you then have room for optimized setters
09:51:34 <coppro> but those are a derived concept that aren't necessary
09:52:47 <ais523> if you have a sufficiently good type system, you can track the initializedness of the fields in the object statically, btw
09:53:04 <ais523> (Anarchy can do that, probably OCaml can as well but I'm less sure about that)
09:56:10 <AnotherTest> ais523: But what if you want to leave something unitialized on construction?
09:57:06 <AnotherTest> Well, I guess that means your design is bad
09:57:09 <coppro> ais523: you can do this with a poor type system too
09:57:37 <coppro> AnotherTest: I think the intent is that it's like Java, where you cannot use an unitialized field, not where you can't have them
09:57:58 <AnotherTest> What if you want to allocate memory, but not yet on construction?
09:59:06 <AnotherTest> For example, something like C++'s std::vector. In that case "push_back" can allocate memory, and the constructor doesn't have to allocate memory
09:59:59 <coppro> AnotherTest: The idea would be that there are two types of int. Initialized int and uninitialized int
10:00:11 <coppro> so int i; is uninitialized
10:00:19 <coppro> int j = i; is an error because you can't read from an uninitialized type
10:00:45 <Jafet> int i; if(true) i = 1; int j = i;
10:01:10 <coppro> Jafet: that's the problem with that approach
10:01:44 <AnotherTest> int i; if(some condition that depends on input) i = 1; int j = i;
10:01:47 <Jafet> It would have to be checked at runtime, sometimes
10:02:27 <Jafet> You can rewrite the program to something like int i; boolean _init_i = false; if(!_init_i) error(); j = i;
10:02:37 <Jafet> And hope it usually compiles away
10:03:13 <AnotherTest> That would leave you with problematic code though
10:03:43 <coppro> ugh today is going to suuuuuuck
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11:00:49 <AnotherTest> error: Failure in UniqueIdTest: Expected 1B2M2Y8AsgTpgAmY7PhCfg== but was 1B2M2Y8AsgTpgAmY7PhCfg==
11:01:42 <Jafet> Of course it fails, those were not unique!
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11:20:05 <atriq> I... don't know why I'm bothering to update Thunderbird
11:20:05 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:20:07 <atriq> I have never used it
11:20:40 <atriq> @tell elliott Okay, I'll give that a look
11:27:01 <ion> I transliterated a toy parser library written in Haskell into Python for shits and giggles. It expects splitting a list/string like a = foo; b = foo[1:] is free and it probably also overflows the stack with long inputs, so it’s not useful for anything real. It’s for comparison to the original code for a friend who knows Python and is interested of Haskell. https://gist.github.com/3970500
11:27:43 <Jafet> Python calls them lists too, they must be lists too
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13:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/extras/adverts/idea%203.jpg
13:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear christ, introversion almost used this as an ad for darwinia
13:25:31 <monqy> is darwinia a baby????
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18:24:19 <AnotherTest> Arc_Koen: with instruction-redefining, do you also mean the definition of new instructions?
18:25:19 <Arc_Koen> if you take emmental for instance, all 256 'char' symbols are an instruction
18:25:31 <Arc_Koen> except by default all but a few are nops
18:26:10 <Arc_Koen> when thinking about the name of "braincurses" I thought maybe you could have a language named BrainCensored
18:26:16 <AnotherTest> So "instruction redefining" would be a form of extensible programming?
18:26:27 <Arc_Koen> no idea what extensible programming i
18:27:17 <Arc_Koen> in braincensored every time you use an instruction it gets censored - you're not allowed to use it any longer
18:27:22 <AnotherTest> Well, programming to extend the programming language by extending the compiler and run-time environment I guess
18:27:26 <Arc_Koen> and there would be an instruction to define new instructions
18:28:24 <Arc_Koen> so before using an instruction you'd have to define a new instruction to do what the old instruction did (but you'd have to do that for the instruction-redefining instruction too...)
18:28:35 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: doesnt seem difficult to use, just annoying
18:28:57 <Arc_Koen> well I guess if you can find some technique to use it then yes
18:29:11 <Arc_Koen> many esoteric languages aren't actually fun to use, though
18:29:27 <quintopia> you just always keep creating instructions that 1) do the thing you want and 2)create the next instruction like this
18:29:54 <Arc_Koen> but you'd have to do that for the instruction that creates instructions, too
18:30:09 <Arc_Koen> and I don't know yet what semantics it would have
18:30:20 <Arc_Koen> it can be interesting or it can be boring :)
18:30:59 <AnotherTest> Arc_Koen: what about a category "Extensible programming paradigm"
18:31:23 <Arc_Koen> you should propose that on the talk page
18:31:33 <Arc_Koen> I have to go for now but I will look into extensible programming
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20:29:47 <ion> Codeweavers Crossover for free. http://flock.codeweavers.com/
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20:46:05 <elliott> If you or your loved ones are affected by Hurricane Sandy, please return to this page (sandy.codeweavers.com) starting on Thursday, November 1, 2012 to learn how to get your FREE copy of CrossOver. We will be maintaining this offer until ConEd gets the lights back on and the trains start running again. We are thinking about you, we hope that you and your loved ones are safe.
20:46:05 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:56:02 <Gregor> elliott: Sooooooo, basically, they're offering free copies to anyone NOT affected by the hurricane, since it's online-only and only while the electricity's out.
20:57:32 <elliott> maybe you have to prove you were affected
20:57:35 <elliott> so they are offering 0 copies for free
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21:13:34 <kmc> "Does your ham contain human genes? You wouldn't know unless it's labeled. Vote for Prop 37"
21:13:37 <kmc> stupid future
21:14:11 <kmc> that is an odd giveaway
21:14:26 <kmc> i mean it's true that many more people in NYC are without trains than without power
21:14:46 <kmc> this is what the subway network looks like tomorrow: http://www.mta.info/sites/default/files/pdf/HurricaneRecoveryMapOct312012.pdf
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21:19:17 <elliott> the internet realised it existed about five days before it happened i think
21:20:11 <kmc> "On October 20, the system became better organized, and the U.S. National Hurricane Center (NHC) assessed a high potential for it to become a tropical cyclone within 48 hours"
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21:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i wish i knew anything about jersey shore so i could make a topical remark
21:20:33 <kmc> so roughtly a week and a half
21:20:43 <kmc> new jersey sucks but making fun of them now is mean-spirited
21:21:01 <kmc> new jersey is basically one giant freeway interchange
21:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> although i guess if you go there to look for america now you'll need a snorkel
21:36:35 <elliott> kmc: <fruitFly> what's wrong with this semi colon.. fibCons fib = if (fib.head + fib.tail.head) < 4000000 then (fib.head + fib.tail.head:fib; fibCons fib) else fib ???
21:37:23 <elliott> Gregor: it's like you don't even know haskell
21:44:42 <olsner> to be fair, I have no idea where to put the semicolon in that expression either
21:45:19 <kmc> there's no wrong place to put the semicolon
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22:41:47 <elliott> pikhq: is there a better display manager than xdm yet
22:42:49 <elliott> last time i tried lightdm it sort of didn't work
22:43:28 <elliott> i forget what else was bad about it
22:44:27 <elliott> ion: oh right it also depends on gnome-common
22:44:32 <elliott> which makes me a bit unhappy
22:44:52 <kmc> yessssssss xdm
22:44:55 <kmc> party like it's 1992
22:45:18 <elliott> kmc: i actually managed to style xdm to not look terrible
22:45:28 <elliott> kmc: by which i mean it was just grey with a one pixel border and anti-aliased sans fonts
22:45:43 <ion> Hmm. It doesn’t seem to depend on gnome-common directly on my system.
22:45:59 <elliott> which is afaict the only greeter anyone uses
22:46:16 <ion> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.5), libcairo2 (>= 1.2.4), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.16.0), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.0.0), liblightdm-gobject-1-0 (>= 0.9.8), libx11-6, lightdm
22:46:41 <elliott> then why does it try and install gnome-common on arch!!
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22:47:53 <ion> You should ask for your money back.
22:49:57 <kmc> elliott: nooooo
22:50:42 <kmc> styling xdm
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22:51:15 <kmc> that would be like setting your root window to not a 1px black and white checkerboard
22:51:19 <kmc> (ok even i can't stand that
22:51:28 <elliott> kmc: xdm uses that background by default
22:54:19 <elliott> anyway I guess I will stick to logging in and running startx
22:54:55 <ion> pooping great?
23:01:40 <tswett> Yeah, what's up with those 1px black and white checkerboards?
23:06:49 <olsner> it's the punishment for not setting the background to something better
23:06:55 <olsner> or, not running a program that paints stuff on the root window
23:14:13 <pikhq> elliott: Not really?
23:15:13 <olsner> my first 5-10 years or so of linuxing was logging in as root and running startx :)
23:17:34 <olsner> (but it turned out people on IRC made fun of you if your whois said root, so I stopped doing that)
23:18:21 <ion> So… peer pressure was used for good?
23:18:31 <pikhq> olsner: I vote you fuck with 'em.
23:18:42 <pikhq> Make UID 0 "admin", and your login "root".
23:19:13 <Gregor> Or, make UID 0 "nobody" and your login "root"
23:19:21 <Gregor> That way you fuck with not only IRC users, but yourself.
23:19:52 <olsner> I think for a while I had a differently-named account with uid 0
23:21:06 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure there's no interest in a new DM because Wayland's coming soon.
23:21:37 <pikhq> I'd bet on a KMS-based getty-ish soon.
23:22:14 <pikhq> Kernel mode-setting.
23:22:35 <pikhq> The fundamental low-level graphics interface on modern Linux.
23:23:58 <elliott> isn't lightdm "new", also?
23:23:58 <elliott> also is X on wayland stable yet, maybe i should be cool and switch
23:24:35 <olsner> I think lightdm is like several years old
23:25:42 <elliott> pikhq: will be "fun" if nvidia/ati never bother implementing kms and hence linux ends up regressing in terms of graphics driver support