←2012-11-01 2012-11-02 2012-11-03→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:08:35 <zzo38> Can you make a Verilog/VHDL/PALASM/other hardware description languages implementation of Checkout?
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01:22:46 <shachaf> «I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "Yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests.» -- Rasmus Lerdorf
01:22:50 <shachaf> «We restart HN every 5 or 6 days, or it gets slow (memory leaks).» -- Paul Graham
01:22:54 <shachaf> Coïncidence?
01:24:17 <kmc> haha
01:24:35 <kmc> real programmers indeed
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01:57:35 <ais523\unfoog> esolang idea: an esolang where leaking memory and having allocations fail is the only way to do conditionals
01:59:36 <zzo38> ais523\unfoog: OK, let's write that in esolang list of ideas.
02:00:22 <zzo38> I have been told that LLVM does not target old ARM architectures. It is not too much of a problem, since GCC can still target them.
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02:02:24 <zzo38> ARM are still called RISC even though the new ones are more complicated.
02:02:43 <Bike> do they have an "evaluate polynomial" instruction?
02:03:13 <zzo38> I don't know, but I don't think it has something like that; only I know VAX has evaluate polynomial, I think.
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02:06:35 <kmc> RISC just means "not x86" now ;P
02:09:46 <Slereah> I program in notx86 all the time!
02:09:54 <Slereah> notx86 is the best language
02:13:43 <zzo38> kmc: Why did they do that?
02:14:19 <pikhq> RISC is in the name of ARM though.
02:15:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know but still the new ones are more complicated, having not just one but many instruction sets, and various other features added on
02:16:16 <Bike> but it's still "reduced" from the vax, so it's all good
02:16:50 <pikhq> In modern parlance "RISC" refers to ISAs that use a load/store architecture, no?
02:17:28 <kmc> well i would say it refers to a whole set of architectural features
02:17:33 <pikhq> i.e. without really ludicrously complex addressing modes, like x86 is known for...
02:17:43 <kmc> ARM has some fairly complex addressing modes
02:17:51 <pikhq> Hrm, right.
02:17:51 <kmc> and x86's aren't that complex
02:18:01 <kmc> ARM has pre/post increment/decrement which x86 lacks
02:18:27 <kmc> but x86 lets you do things like INC a memory address, which RISC processors typically avoid
02:18:39 <pikhq> And has a strcpy opcode.
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02:18:54 <kmc> though you need something like that for concurrency primitives
02:19:05 <kmc> atomic test-and-set is also a memory read and a write together in the same instruction
02:20:35 <zzo38> 6502 also has increment a memory address (it lacks a increment accumulator instruction!), and VAX even has increment immediate.
02:21:00 <Bike> increment immediate, really? is it self-modifying, then?
02:23:22 <zzo38> Yes, if the program is stored in RAM it may, I suppose, do so. It sets the flags too so it might be useful for that purpose too.
02:24:43 <Bike> dang.
02:30:45 <zzo38> (RogueVM also can use (non-short) immediates as a destination, by using the PC post-increment addressing mode. I think this is similar to how VAX does it.)
02:33:02 <zzo38> 6502 does have increment X register and increment Y register, but cannot increment A register; but, instruction for addition is only usable with A register.
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02:43:03 <kmc> by that standard, AMD64 also has store immediate, increment immediate, etc.
02:43:56 <kmc> incb (%rip); .byte 0xc2
02:44:55 <shachaf> rip %rip
02:46:00 <kmc> ARM is interesting because they added various features specifically to combat weaknesses of RISC
03:01:49 <kmc> i think increment/decrement address modes are an example of that
03:02:18 <kmc> otherwise you have to load, add, store, and it just sucks
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03:08:10 <shachaf> kmc: That fourth operation is the worst.
03:21:25 <kmc> the sucking one?
03:21:40 <kmc> hm but what i said isn't very accurate
03:21:46 <kmc> because your counters should be in registers anyway
03:27:59 <kmc> i am the wrost
03:28:35 <kmc> i watched Star Trek: TNG for the first time the other day
03:29:09 <pikhq> Fair warning, TNG honestly varies from awesome to suck.
03:29:47 <pikhq> How'd you like whatever episode you saw?
03:30:14 <kmc> we had some expert nerds select a 3-episode cycle
03:30:21 <kmc> well okay "select 3 episodes"
03:30:55 <pikhq> That probably helps.
03:30:56 <ion> I watched all of Star Trek a few years ago. It took about a year.
03:31:10 <ion> (in chronological order)
03:31:15 <kmc> we watched "Clues", "The Measure of a Man", and "The Inner Light"
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03:31:43 <pikhq> Perfect selection.
03:32:17 <kmc> i didn't much care for the second one
03:32:24 <kmc> "clues" was good and "inner light" was great
03:32:59 <pikhq> "The Inner Light" is often considered the best episode of TNG. It is inarguably a great one.
03:33:15 <kmc> yeah it's pretty cool
03:33:24 <pikhq> That selection is overall great for giving you a feel of what the series is like.
03:33:31 <kmc> excellent
03:33:38 <kmc> i have the whole series stashed away on a hard drive somewhere
03:33:42 <kmc> maybe it's time for a marathon
03:34:42 <kmc> "clues" had a cool idea but the structure was kind of weak
03:35:01 <pikhq> Beware: season 1 sucks horribly, and season 2 varies ("Measure of a Man" is one of the better ones)...
03:35:23 <kmc> they don't really get very far in unraveling the mystery before data is just like "ok, here's what happened"
03:35:37 <shachaf> Should I watch these?
03:36:18 <pikhq> The show really got into its stride after Roddenberry's death, TBH...
03:36:18 <kmc> you should watch "The Inner Light" at least
03:36:23 <pikhq> shachaf: In short, yes.
03:37:02 <pikhq> Especially The Inner Light. Hugo Award winner.
03:37:30 <ion> A brilliant series of TNG remixes (to be watched in order): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9CCCF2C09E92679B
03:38:05 <pikhq> One of three Trek episodes so awarded. (the other being "The Menagerie", the only TOS two-parter, and "All Good Things...", the TNG finale)
03:38:17 <pikhq> ("All Good Things..." is an amazing episode, but don't watch it yet.)
03:39:00 <pikhq> kmc: Another one I recommend is "Darmok".
03:40:36 <ion> Has everyone watched Babylon 5?
03:40:47 <pikhq> No; it's in my giant queue
03:41:32 <shachaf>
03:42:12 <shachaf>
03:43:01 <ion> It’s a rare show in that they had a great five-year story in advance instead of inventing the story as they go.
03:43:21 <ion> One of my absolute favorites.
03:43:56 <kmc> that's cool
03:43:58 <kmc> i should watch that too
03:44:20 <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
03:45:06 <kmc> that sounds hazardous
03:45:19 <pikhq> It's better than remembering.
03:46:24 <ion> B5 can seem to start a little slowly (especially since you don’t realize all the apparently insignificant things that are preludes to big events later on) but after watching enough of it you’ll surely find it worth it.
03:46:37 <ion> don’t realize the first time you watch it, that is
03:47:00 <pikhq> And the episode "Threshold" will make you omit the middlemen and simply give yourself a brainectomy.
03:48:48 <ion> Be sure to watch Star Trek: The Animated Series, the pinnacle of the franchise.
03:49:07 <pikhq> I wouldn't say that.
03:49:19 <pikhq> It's decently written, but the animation is hilariously bad.
03:49:42 <coppro> pikhq: is threshold the one that got retconned out instantly?
03:49:44 <pikhq> It also does weird things to the setting if you accept it as canon.
03:49:46 <pikhq> coppro: Yes.
03:50:21 <ion> M’Ress making random noises while talking http://youtu.be/jjGhYexrJ0c
03:50:21 <pikhq> Among other things, TAS imports parts of Known Space into the setting.
03:51:13 <pikhq> Also, the coloring is sad. ... The guy in charge of chosing the colors of things was literally color blind.
03:52:37 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdQwE6VK1hg
03:52:40 <coppro> fan
03:52:41 <coppro> fucking
03:52:42 <coppro> tastic
03:53:53 <ion> Haha, i had forgotten Threshold was *that* episode. Yeah, it was horrible. :-D
04:06:41 <kmc> aw, they're not making that spinoff of The Office starring Dwight and his wacky Nazi uncle, after all
04:07:02 <kmc> i was looking forward to finding out just how bad it would be
04:08:41 <ion> I have everything from S06E20 still in the queue.
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04:12:03 <krzysz00> I wrote this over the last few days. Your thoughts? https://github.com/krzysz00/singl
04:13:28 <kmc> i see a spec for a language but not a high-level overview of why it's interesting
04:13:35 <kmc> good languages (esoteric and otherwise) usually have both
04:13:57 <krzysz00> You have a point there, kmc.
04:15:29 <zzo38> krzysz00: It is OK, I think. Still you should also have what kmc request too
04:19:23 <shachaf> I have an esolang but its spec is uncomputable.
04:19:33 <shachaf> tswett: You know what else is uncomputable?
04:37:19 <tswett> All non-standard models of the natural numbers?
04:43:44 <kmc> somebody's mom?
04:49:49 <coppro> shachaf: the busy beaver function?
04:50:23 <Slereah> Busy beaver is very computable
04:50:28 <coppro> Slereah: no it isn't
04:50:37 <Slereah> Isn't it?
04:50:43 <Slereah> It has been a while
04:50:43 <coppro> no
04:51:07 <coppro> suppose you had a TM which could compute busy beaver
04:51:46 <coppro> then you could create a machine which took as input another machine, determined its size, and ran it for BB(n) steps; if it halts, then it accepts, otherwise it fails.
04:51:51 <coppro> then you've solved the halting problem
04:53:21 <kmc> in fact this demonstrates that any upper bound for BB(n) is uncomputable
04:53:31 <kmc> so we can say that it grows faster than any computable function
04:53:33 <kmc> which is kinda crazy
04:54:15 <Bike> so, how are exact values (for BB on really simple machines) known?
04:54:28 <Bike> or are those just lower bounds?
04:54:36 <kmc> some of them are exact
04:55:05 <kmc> you enumerate all the different turing machines of that size and prove that they halt or don't
04:55:23 <Bike> isn't that a procedure, then?
04:55:47 <kmc> no because you can search for larger and larger proofs forever
04:56:22 <coppro> exactly
04:56:26 <kmc> that is, given the size of the machine, you have no computable bound on the size of a proof that it halts or doesn't
04:56:40 <coppro> Given a fixed n, you can compute BB up to n
04:56:49 <coppro> but no turing machine can compute BB for arbitrary n
04:56:58 <shachaf> FSVO "you"
04:57:21 <Bike> well, that's a bit clearer. The whole thing always sort of confused me.
04:57:46 <Bike> of course I have a book with a graph of the kolmogorov complexity of numbers as a function, maybe I should focus on that confusingness first.
05:03:48 <kmc> ohhh i think there is something deeper going on here
05:04:45 <kmc> say i have a turing machine M. in one thread i run M, and in another thread I enumerate all possible proofs that M doesn't halt, and check them one by one
05:04:52 <kmc> why doesn't this solve the halting problem?
05:04:55 <kmc> i think the answer is
05:05:27 <kmc> for any (r.e.) axiomatic system of talking about turing machines, there is some machine which doesn't halt, such that you can't prove it doesn't halt within your system
05:05:36 <kmc> basically by gödel's incompleteness theorem
05:05:53 <pikhq> Bahahah.
05:06:12 <kmc> (or else the system is inconsistent, but in that case it doesn't agree with the meta-theoretic definition of "halt" and so is useless)
05:06:42 <coppro> How do you enumerate the possible proofs that M doesn't halt?
05:07:24 <ion> [minBound..]
05:07:25 <kmc> the proofs are just strings in some formal system; you can enumerate strings easily enough
05:08:08 <coppro> But there are infinite such proofs
05:08:43 <kmc> sure, but they are recursively enumerable
05:08:54 <coppro> yeah, but how do you know your system will halt?
05:09:07 <kmc> because every machine either halts or doesn't (on a given input)
05:09:14 <kmc> so either there exists a computation history showing it to halt
05:09:19 <kmc> or there exists a finite proof that it doesn't
05:09:27 <kmc> but it's the second statement which is wrong
05:09:30 <coppro> yeah
05:09:44 <kmc> because even though the "proof exists" informally, you can't nail it down in any particular formal system
05:09:48 <coppro> not even
05:09:54 <kmc> whichever formal system you choose, some machine will escape you
05:09:56 <pikhq> coppro: Either the machine M halts, or the search for a proof that M doesn't halt, halts.
05:09:58 <coppro> example: write a TM which enumerates theorems of ZFC and terminates when it finds a proof or disproof of CH
05:10:16 <pikhq> Except that by Gödel's incompleteness theorem, the second is not necessarily the case.
05:10:20 <pikhq> Yes, you get the idea.
05:10:33 <pikhq> I think?
05:10:46 <kmc> yeah, i'm not sure if that is the same thing or different
05:10:47 <Bike> so any r.e. axiomatic system has turing machine halting proofs independent of it?
05:10:48 <coppro> err, sorry, a proof of CH
05:11:14 <pikhq> Bike: Seems like it.
05:11:19 <coppro> hmm... actually, that doesn't quite work
05:11:36 <coppro> but yeah, you can find a TM for which halting is independent of your axiom system
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05:13:41 <Bike> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=710 maybe this is what I'm thinking of
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05:34:09 <kmc> do you know which form of transit is still operating well in New York? boats!
05:34:21 <kmc> even the IKEA boat is already back in service
05:34:51 <Bike> ikea has a boat?
05:35:21 <kmc> yes
05:35:30 <Bike> rad
05:36:26 <kmc> the ikea in NYC is somewhat inconvenient by bus or train
05:36:31 <kmc> but it's right on the water
05:36:45 <kmc> so they run a free shuttle boat
05:37:29 <Bike> clever
05:37:38 <Bike> good to have cheap furniture during the apocalypse
05:38:30 <kmc> except then people started using it for commutes and whatever
05:38:37 <kmc> so now it's $5 to go to IKEA, but you get a $5 gift card
05:38:43 <kmc> and you have to show a receipt on the way back
05:39:00 <kmc> this is like the express buses to atlantic city that make you buy casino chips with your bus ticket
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08:20:51 <shubshub> Hey guys guess what
08:21:36 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison <-- My new programming language
08:22:52 <shubshub> I finished making my new programming language (Sort of enough for release)
08:23:11 <shubshub> Just adding a few more things before I release 1.1
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08:28:20 <nooga> is this a joke shubshub
08:28:57 <Jafet> Dude, mediafire is legit
08:31:45 <nooga> shubshub: couldn't you just paste help contents onto the wiki page?
08:34:22 <shubshub> Maybe in next release
08:34:37 <shubshub> Alright fine ill post help on wiki page
08:34:50 <shubshub> ill also update it to 1.1
08:42:56 <nooga> you're supposed to briefly explain what the language is
08:45:27 <shubshub> Im going to
08:56:48 <shubshub> Updated along with help on wiki page
08:56:49 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
09:01:36 <shubshub> nooga I updatred it
09:05:17 <nooga> uh
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09:18:39 <nooga> not sure if troll or just a beginner ;o
09:20:19 <shubshub> why whats wrong with it
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09:22:32 <nooga> read other entries, like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda , http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
09:22:40 <nooga> and then read yours again
09:23:31 <shubshub> meh ill edit it later
09:26:58 <nooga> it's not only the description
09:27:12 <nooga> what makes your language interesting?
09:31:49 <shubshub> the fact that it uses smasller commands]
09:44:01 <nooga> smaller than what?
09:44:03 <nooga> python?
09:46:44 <shubshub> yea
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09:47:52 <nooga> what's the execution model?
09:49:28 <shubshub> what do u mean?
09:49:38 <shubshub> -+
09:53:44 <shubshub> What do u mean by execution model
09:59:28 <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
10:00:51 <shubshub> yes
10:01:14 <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
10:01:42 <shubshub> anyway how did you get the py file I only posted the pyc file
10:02:38 <fizzie> I decompiled it; to be honest, the urllib.urlretrieve and ['runas', '/user:Administrator', x] parts seen in strings file.pyc made me a bit uncomfortable.
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10:02:48 <shubshub> ah
10:03:39 <ion> Why would you release only the pyc file?
10:03:54 <shubshub> Idk cuz I didnt want it to be Open source
10:04:09 <ion> How is that useful?
10:04:18 <shubshub> why not
10:05:58 <shubshub> I added the runas admin feature for something I was doing at school
10:08:04 <shubshub> I Am Al
10:08:35 <shubshub> i am also the creator of another language called !!!Batch and also NumericBatch both of which are very unstable
10:13:00 <shubshub> anyway gtg
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11:49:49 <russkiyhuy> hello! preved!
11:51:21 <russkiyhuy> pidorasy present today?
11:52:57 <russkiyhuy> everybody ebanod dniwe?
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14:22:35 <ion> A Slower Speed of Light Official Trailer — MIT Game Lab http://youtu.be/uu7jA8EHi_0
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14:31:14 <kmc> preved medved
14:31:54 <elliott> x
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14:33:46 <elliott> @ask monqy One day I was Bored and Decided to learn how to program in python so I went and watched some youtube videos however I didn't just want to program in Python I wanted to form my own language perhaps an easier No wait more simplistic version of Python with smaller command names And easier programming so here it is The Poison Programming Language
14:33:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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14:34:39 <ion> Verily.
14:34:47 <atriq> Verily indeed.
14:34:48 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:34:52 <atriq> Oh, sweet
14:35:04 <ion> Verily indeed indubitably.
14:35:13 <atriq> I...
14:35:17 <kmc> Oh Wow it's Shubshub
14:35:19 <elliott> did you get good messages
14:35:20 <atriq> I had seen all those messages before
14:35:32 <elliott> kmc: shubshub: the best?
14:35:39 <elliott> should i make poison the featured language
14:36:02 <atriq> elliott, I did see them and I downloaded Brogue and I am playing it RIGHT NOW
14:36:05 <atriq> Well, not right now
14:36:08 <atriq> But I have it open
14:36:24 <ion> clear() - Clear the command line screen on a Linux Computer
14:36:26 <ion> cls() - Clear the command line screen on a Windows Computer
14:36:39 <elliott> ion: it's cross-platform
14:36:42 <elliott> like java
14:36:51 <fizzie> ion: def clear(): os.system('clear') def cls(): os.system('cls')
14:36:53 <atriq> ion, a specific Linux Computer, or just any
14:37:35 <Jafet> We need languages that let us clear other people's screens
14:37:46 <fizzie> The mathes eqaution commands just print the result; now I need to manually copy the intermediate result to add three numbers. :/
14:38:08 <elliott> fizzie: sounds better than mathematica
14:39:00 <Arc_Koen> elliott: what about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Ozone#Interp ?
14:39:22 <elliott> Arc_Koen: apparently i said something in 2008 and then didn't do it
14:39:29 <Arc_Koen> :(
14:39:34 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I hate that I have to write 1 + 2 and then Out[1] + 3 to add three numbers there. :/
14:40:05 <elliott> wouldn't it be 1 + Out[3]
14:40:22 <fizzie> Maybe it's that.
14:40:31 <elliott> since 1+2 is 3 iirc
14:40:52 <ion> 1+2 ≈ FileNotFound
14:41:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/cCjC look I'm pulling results from the future.
14:42:06 <tswett> forall x: def x(): os.system('x')
14:42:33 <elliott> fizzie: Ohh, right, Out is an array.
14:42:42 <Arc_Koen> ocaml doesn't like me :(
14:42:55 <elliott> fizzie: It should automagically recalculate the display of the Out[n]s each time you cause them to change.
14:43:01 <elliott> Like a spreadsheet.
14:43:18 <fizzie> I suppose the gooey version can do some stuff like that.
14:43:27 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying to implement circlefuck using the circular buffer module I wrote some time ago but I need two pointers to the same buffer and ocaml won't let me do that
14:44:28 <Arc_Koen> if I try including the module and adding functions to it, they don't work because they're not allowed to access the internal structure
14:47:16 <ion> 1.9.2p318 :001 > def method_missing(cmd, *args) system(cmd.to_s, *args) end; echo "foo"
14:47:18 <ion> foo
14:47:54 <kmc> http://amoffat.github.com/sh/ is like that
14:47:56 <kmc> and is wonderful
14:48:29 <elliott> Arc_Koen: have you considered changing the module
14:48:43 <Arc_Koen> well, yes, I could rewrite it all
14:48:45 <ion> self = sys.modules[__name__]
14:48:46 <ion> sys.modules[__name__] = SelfWrapper(self)
14:48:48 <ion> I like the kluge.
14:48:57 <Arc_Koen> but is that really a good idea?
14:49:14 <Arc_Koen> my first idea was to add a function "shallow copy" or something to it
14:49:30 <Arc_Koen> but it causes problem if you try to pop an item that's the front item from a copy
14:49:51 <ion> A European shallow or an African shallow?
14:49:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: all i hear is yet more arguments against mutable state :p
14:50:27 <Arc_Koen> do you have any idea to avoid using them?
14:51:30 <elliott> well presumably you could use a purely-functional data structure instead... maybe for circular things that's a bit of a pain though, iirc Okasaki's /Purely Functional Data Structures/ extends the language with basic lazy values for things like that
14:51:45 <elliott> (though I suppose you could implement them easily as (() -> a) if you're not worried about performance)
14:52:02 <elliott> that said there is probably some solution to your problem that does not involve rewriting your program
14:52:07 <elliott> but I don't know OCaml, so who knows what it is
14:52:18 <atriq> When I was on holiday I wrote a Hunt the Wumpus clone
14:52:21 <atriq> It's awful
14:52:24 <kmc> you can implement them as (() -> a) with good performance if you can close over a mutable cell
14:52:40 <elliott> kmc: right
14:52:47 <elliott> I guess that is nicer than exposing the mutable cell in the type
14:52:51 <kmc> yes
14:52:57 <elliott> which was my first idea
14:53:04 <Jafet> You can write it in fucking C
14:53:07 <kmc> <3 functional imperative programming
14:53:17 <kmc> i would like to learn Fucking C
14:53:21 <Jafet> Fucking C is like system F, except you're forced to be more explicit.
14:53:21 <kmc> is there a relevant ISO standard
14:53:21 <atriq> Jafet, how is fucking C different from regular C?
14:53:26 <kmc> ISO-Fucking-9899
14:53:31 <Arc_Koen> what is it you call (() -> a)?
14:53:37 <kmc> Arc_Koen: The Aristocrats
14:53:39 <Arc_Koen> replacing the data structure with a function?
14:53:40 <Jafet> Arc_Koen: haskell
14:53:53 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I guess it is (unit -> a) in OCaml
14:53:58 <elliott> or I guess (unit -> 'a) even
14:53:59 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I think it's thunking, but everyone's gonna shout at me because I'm wrong
14:54:08 <elliott> I think it's thunking about thinking
14:54:21 <fizzie> Who'd've thunk it.
14:54:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: anyway I was just talking about the implementation of a simple lazy value
14:55:07 <elliott> to use for implementing something circular-ish in a purely-functional manner
14:55:13 <elliott> though I suppose a circular buffer could work as a zipper or something instead
14:55:19 <Arc_Koen> well I still have no idea what you mean
14:55:25 <elliott> that's ok
14:55:35 <Arc_Koen> a zipper would be fine if there weren't two iterators
14:55:40 <Arc_Koen> I mean, two pointers
14:56:25 <atriq> data BiZipper a = BiZipper [a] a [a] (Maybe a) [a]?
14:56:42 <elliott> atriq: yuk
14:56:48 <Arc_Koen> a a a
14:56:56 <atriq> Yes, that is the worst
14:57:17 <Arc_Koen> is Maybe a constructor similar to ocaml's None / Some option type?
14:57:31 <atriq> Probably
14:57:42 <atriq> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
14:57:58 <Arc_Koen> type 'a option = None | Some of 'a
14:58:29 <atriq> elliott, there are at least three birthday parties in Hexham tomorrow. What's the word on the street?
14:58:55 <elliott> is there word
14:59:03 <quintopia> yes
14:59:08 <quintopia> it is
14:59:14 <quintopia> "slow"
14:59:26 <elliott> but i dont know the word
14:59:30 <atriq> One of them's a sort of surprise party for me
14:59:34 <atriq> And I want to know more details
14:59:45 <atriq> Except I don't actually
14:59:50 <elliott> ok well atriq
14:59:52 <elliott> i can tell you this
14:59:59 <elliott> if there is ever word on the street i know literally none of it
15:00:14 <elliott> i may, in fact, be the single worst person in hexham to ask about the word on the street
15:00:15 <elliott> so
15:00:16 <elliott> congratulations
15:00:18 <quintopia> the word on the street is "slow"
15:00:24 <quintopia> its a school zone
15:00:42 <fizzie> elliott: Are you 'in' in the Hexham party scene, though?
15:01:27 <elliott> fizzie: what is the opposite of in these days
15:01:33 <atriq> "out"
15:01:42 <elliott> right I am "out"
15:02:55 <quintopia> start your own private party scene. then everyone else will be out and you will be in
15:03:11 <elliott> what if i get lonely
15:03:17 -!- mean has quit.
15:03:40 <quintopia> then little has changed
15:04:12 <elliott> :'(
15:09:47 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_with_bushy_tails
15:10:39 <elliott> nice
15:16:09 <atriq> A mysterious package arrived for me when I was in Ibiza
15:16:18 <atriq> I have to go down to the post office depot thing to pick it up
15:20:12 <kmc> how was Ibiza?
15:20:17 <atriq> Boring
15:22:31 <kmc> that sucks
15:25:16 <elliott> kmc: you know what else sucks?
15:25:42 <kmc> PHP?
15:25:49 <elliott> everything
15:26:46 <ion> ∀x. x sucks
15:26:57 <atriq> Hence PHP sucks
15:27:20 <Jafet> PHP used to be a thing, but is it still a thing?
15:27:25 <atriq> Yes
15:27:27 <coppro> it is sadly still a thing
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15:32:36 <quintopia> earth sucks
15:33:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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15:34:29 <elliott> `welcome girafee
15:34:40 <HackEgo> girafee: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:37:02 <atriq> You know, we might be able to do quicker welcome messages if we didn't rely on a bot starting up a linux environment on one of Gregor's computers every time
15:37:38 <elliott> pfft
15:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I confused immersion with orientation today and I think I made a complete tit of myself :(
15:38:09 <coppro> do you feel blue?
15:38:18 <kmc> atriq: that reminds me of boltzmann brains
15:38:34 <atriq> kmc, that means nothing to me
15:38:47 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, what's your sexual immersion
15:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (ah, vienna!)
15:39:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: don't you always make a complete tit of yourself
15:39:22 <atriq> elliott, no, that's me
15:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, homeomorphic.
15:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (Pedant's note, I couldn't be bothered doing that properly.)
15:40:41 <Jafet> Hrm, Aphrodite?
15:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, sometimes cauchy sequences on the tit don't converge.
15:41:31 <Jafet> You just need to apply the squeeze test
15:42:22 <elliott> these jokes are dumb guys
15:42:24 <Phantom_Hoover> To see if the tit is contractible?
15:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you would know dumb wouldn't you??
15:46:03 <elliott> no
15:54:12 <kmc> atriq: what did you do in Ibiza?
15:54:22 <atriq> kmc, very little
15:54:37 <atriq> It was too windy to go to the beach and the wrong part of the island to party
15:55:05 <kmc> well... that sucks
15:55:11 <atriq> Anyone want to see how much I suck at programming?
16:08:27 <kmc> apparently not
16:11:03 <Arc_Koen> show us
16:11:07 <Arc_Koen> let us be compleasant
16:11:36 * hagb4rd turns the light down low
16:12:19 <atriq> It's time to GET A PACKAGE
16:12:27 <atriq> http://hpaste.org/77161
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16:17:22 <Arc_Koen> the monster is called a wumpus
16:17:30 <Arc_Koen> and where are the bats and the pits?
16:18:42 <Arc_Koen> also I don't know if that's how it worked with the original game, but I believe it's better if the room numbers are attributed randomly
16:18:56 <Arc_Koen> so that when you start you don't already know what leads where
16:20:02 <Arc_Koen> and last thing my comments are probably irrelevant as I can't read haskell
16:24:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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16:46:31 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1136.html
17:03:36 -!- atriq has joined.
17:03:38 <atriq> Back
17:04:33 <elliott> atriq: don't use data.array it sucks
17:04:35 <elliott> - my helpful advice
17:08:46 <atriq> Okay
17:08:50 <atriq> Elaborate please
17:09:01 <atriq> And also give thoughts on the mysterious package I recieved
17:10:21 -!- Bike has joined.
17:10:31 <elliott> it sucks
17:10:34 <elliott> that's my elaboration
17:10:54 -!- ogrom has joined.
17:11:02 <coppro> atriq: try importing it
17:11:05 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:19 <atriq> I don't know what modules it contains!
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17:14:41 <atriq> elliott, what would you suggest to replace it?
17:15:18 <elliott> atriq: either a function, vector (from the vector package), or a map/hashmap
17:15:21 <elliott> depends on your needs!
17:15:28 <atriq> I'd go for a function in this case
17:16:07 <elliott> you should randomise the layout tho
17:16:10 <elliott> that'd be cool!
17:16:12 <elliott> and dumb
17:18:27 * ion randomizes elliott’s layout.
17:18:37 <atriq> Go ion
17:19:49 <elliott> atriq: btw why are you using makeLensesFor
17:19:52 <elliott> rather than makeLenses or makeClassy
17:20:22 <atriq> I didn't know how they named them
17:21:51 <elliott> atriq: they expect your fields to be named _foo and produce a lens named foo
17:22:39 <atriq> Hmm
17:22:43 <atriq> That isn't quite what I have
17:22:55 <atriq> I have fields named foo and lenses named foo_
17:23:52 <elliott> right but that sucks
17:23:54 <elliott> so i don't care
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17:34:18 <atriq> Okay, I've changed it
17:38:12 <atriq> It now uses functions instead of arrays, and makeLenses instead of makeLensesFor
17:38:47 <elliott> ok now split that one gigantic definition you have into like five
17:40:12 <atriq> That's not gigantic
17:40:16 <atriq> That's merely stupidly big
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17:40:32 <atriq> It's less than 100 lines
17:40:35 <atriq> Ergo, not gigantic
17:40:45 <elliott> it's gigantic
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18:06:20 <atriq> Wow, I've just been retweeted by an Internet not actually celebrity
18:06:29 <atriq> Webcomic author Dan Shive
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18:55:31 <Sgeo|web> elliott, I crossed a shachaf. Am I alive?
18:55:36 -!- atriq has joined.
18:58:56 <elliott> hi
18:59:17 <atriq> Oh no!
18:59:18 <atriq> Aaah!
18:59:21 <elliott> that was to sgeo
18:59:26 <atriq> Oh thank god
18:59:29 <elliott> kmc: what does this mean: mount: /my/image/im/trying/to/loop/mount.img failed to setup loop device: No such file or directory
18:59:32 <elliott> *img:
19:01:16 <elliott> (the file exists)
19:01:18 <elliott> (so does the mount point)
19:01:25 <kmc> maybe you have no loopback devices for some reason
19:01:33 <kmc> strace it
19:01:37 <atriq> Remember that time I installed pacman on my computer
19:01:40 <atriq> That was fun
19:01:55 <elliott> oh hm
19:02:01 <elliott> apparently that is true kmc!
19:02:07 <elliott> why don't i have a loopback device
19:02:12 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:02:16 <kmc> do you have a normal udev
19:02:33 <elliott> yes AIUI
19:02:42 <elliott> with systemd, which I don't think matters?
19:02:49 <kmc> well i don't know then :/
19:03:05 <elliott> all i know is systemd and udev merged
19:03:11 <elliott> so now i don't actually have a udev package
19:03:13 <elliott> it's just systemd
19:03:50 <kmc> huh
19:04:01 <kmc> keeping up with how linux systems work is hard
19:04:18 <elliott> kmc: well it's more that they just merged the packages upstream apparently
19:04:24 <elliott> and it's still buildable separately or something
19:05:49 <elliott> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
19:06:01 <elliott> apparently that means basically "you can use udev without systemd in the future but we're not going to make it any better"
19:09:20 <elliott> hmm
19:09:34 <elliott> kmc: actually maybe i do have a loopback device or something
19:09:40 <elliott> i do have the loop module loaded at least
19:12:51 <elliott> open("/dev/loop-control", O_RDWR) = -1 ENODEV (No such device)
19:12:52 <elliott> this is puzzling
19:12:58 <elliott> because
19:12:59 <elliott> $ ls -lh /dev/loop-control
19:12:59 <elliott> crw------- 1 root root 10, 237 Nov 2 14:25 /dev/loop-control
19:13:10 <elliott> so wtf
19:14:05 <kmc> oh probably you just don't have loop.ko loaded
19:14:15 <elliott> kmc: i've done sudo modprobe loop about 10 times
19:14:21 <kmc> haha ok
19:14:23 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/3397886 apparently this person has the same issue on the same OS three months ago
19:14:25 <kmc> well maybe it's fucked somehow
19:14:51 <elliott> well i am sure it is fucked
19:14:53 <elliott> since it doesn't work
19:14:59 <kmc> anything in dmesg?
19:15:11 <elliott> checked before but no
19:15:19 <elliott> nothing since boot-up
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19:16:54 <elliott> $ echo hi | sudo tee /dev/loop-control
19:16:54 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
19:16:54 <elliott> tee: /dev/loop-control: No such device
19:16:54 <elliott> hi
19:16:59 <elliott> so loop-control exists as a device
19:17:02 <elliott> but is not a device
19:17:09 <elliott> so i guess the problem is 10, 237 doesn't identify a valid decide
19:17:10 <elliott> *device
19:17:12 <elliott> so why not
19:17:14 <kmc> it's a file but there's no device hooked up to it in the kernel
19:17:14 <kmc> yeah
19:17:19 <kmc> that is the mystery
19:18:40 <elliott> $ lsmod | grep loop
19:18:40 <elliott> $
19:18:46 <elliott> so modprobe loop didn't work i guess
19:18:48 <elliott> so why didn't it complain??
19:19:07 <elliott> ok
19:19:10 <elliott> sudo modprobe -v sdlfkjsdfkl
19:19:12 <elliott> also outputs nothing
19:19:19 <elliott> what is going onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
19:20:49 <fizzie> Maybe your system has deprecated the loop device completely, in favour of dm-loop?
19:21:09 <elliott> fizzie: OK, I'm willing to accept that... but why is modprobe fucked?
19:21:15 <elliott> (and how would I get dm-loop working)
19:21:42 <fizzie> I don't even know if dm-loop ever went anywhere, I just remember there was one once.
19:22:04 <elliott> dm-loop is lvm only from the looks of it?
19:22:05 <elliott> I don't have lvm.
19:23:36 <elliott> "sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf" doesn't even give any messages.
19:23:39 <fizzie> I think grep loop /proc/devices should at least definitely say if the device is there.
19:23:46 <elliott> Even "modprobe foo" as non-root doesn't give me any messages.
19:23:48 <elliott> What's going on?
19:24:02 <elliott> fizzie: That outputs nothing, right.
19:24:15 <elliott> It seems fairly obvious I need to load loop... so the problem is just that modprobe is completely broken??
19:24:24 <fizzie> Maybe they deprecated modutils and it's just a dummy stub. :p
19:24:39 <elliott> Well it responds to --help and everything.
19:25:08 <fizzie> $ sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf
19:25:08 <fizzie> FATAL: Module dosfjsdofjoidsf not found.
19:25:17 <elliott> $ modprobe -V
19:25:17 <elliott> kmod version 10
19:25:30 <fizzie> Your system has EVERY MODULE, that's why they all work.
19:25:54 <elliott> (what's your version?)
19:26:03 <fizzie> "module-init-tools version 3.16".
19:26:09 -!- ogrom has joined.
19:26:11 <fizzie> Very different.
19:26:35 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit).
19:26:57 <elliott> Name : kmod
19:26:57 <elliott> [...]
19:26:57 <elliott> Conflicts With : module-init-tools
19:26:57 <elliott> Replaces : module-init-tools
19:27:00 <elliott> fizzie: What's going on? :(
19:27:14 <fizzie> It must be some kinda thing.
19:28:04 <elliott> With module-init-tools being declared a dead project by its current maintainer, a new project has stepped up to take its place: kmod. This is intended to be a drop-in replacement, though deprecated functionality in module-init-tools has not been reimplemented.
19:28:05 <elliott> Hokay.
19:28:58 <elliott> [[
19:28:58 <elliott> Hello,
19:28:58 <elliott> While setting up a new VPS with Wheezy under a module-less kernel
19:28:58 <elliott> (everything compiled-in) I've noticed that kmod's modprobe silently
19:28:58 <elliott> returns 1 with no error message printed, no matter if you tell it
19:28:58 <elliott> to load or unload a module.
19:29:00 <elliott> ]]
19:29:02 <elliott> Hokay.
19:29:19 <elliott> So "modprobe loop" is, in fact, failing.
19:29:29 <elliott> How is a mystery.
19:29:56 <fizzie> Apparently things like "diagnostics" and "any messages" are part of the deprecated functionality they've not reimplemented.
19:30:33 <elliott> [[
19:30:33 <elliott> After a bit more testing using a more "standard" Debian install
19:30:33 <elliott> (barebones system from current netinst with Debian standard kernel
19:30:33 <elliott> 3.2.0-3-686-pae) I've found out that this behavior is caused by lack
19:30:33 <elliott> of /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/modules.alias.bin .
19:30:33 <elliott> ]]
19:30:35 <elliott> Hokay.
19:30:49 <kmc> fucking linux kids
19:30:57 <kmc> gotta reimplement the whole system from scratch every few years
19:31:05 <kmc> because clearly the old authors were idiots and that's why nothing works
19:31:06 <elliott> Except I have that file.
19:31:09 <elliott> Hmm.
19:31:18 <kmc> it couldn't be that nothing works because it's all reimplemented from scratch every few years
19:31:27 <fizzie> Do you have a loop.ko in there though?
19:31:30 <kmc> this reminds me of uni computing clubs actually
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19:31:35 <kmc> probably no coincidence
19:31:50 <elliott> fizzie: Well, um, it's a binary file.
19:31:53 <elliott> I don't know how to check.
19:32:09 <elliott> I guess look at modules.alias?
19:32:11 <fizzie> I mean, in the module dir.
19:32:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I have loop.ko.gz, yes.
19:32:22 <elliott> alias devname:loop-control loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias char-major-10-237 loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias block-major-7-* loop
19:32:28 <elliott> That's what modules.alias has.
19:32:48 <elliott> kmc: it's linux... the reason usually is because the old authors were idiots
19:33:07 <fizzie> That sounds suspiciously reasonable. It may be lulling you to a false sense of security.
19:33:46 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to have so strace modprobe, aren't I :(
19:34:24 <fizzie> There weren't any of these .bin files when I last wondered about modules, around the 2.4.x series or something. There was just one ascii .dep file for modprobe and that was about it.
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.alias.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:39 <elliott> OK, it's upset that those don't exist.
19:34:46 <elliott> Ah.
19:34:57 <elliott> fizzie: Guess why it's broken? Hint: It's a really dumb reason and I feel like an idiot.
19:35:30 <elliott> fizzie: Here's a hint:
19:35:36 <elliott> $ ls /lib/modules
19:35:36 <elliott> 3.6.4-1-ARCH 3.6.5-1-ck extramodules-3.6-ARCH extramodules-3.6-ck
19:35:56 <fizzie> Ah ha.
19:36:10 <fizzie> I see some different numbers.
19:36:17 <elliott> The reason is I upgraded my kernel and it removed the old one and I haven't rebooted yet. :(
19:36:28 <elliott> So, uh... be right back.
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19:36:48 <fizzie> It's a Linux system, you should always try rebooting first, it usually fixes all the problems.
19:36:53 <fizzie> ...wait...
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19:38:54 <elliott> Okay, now it gives error messages.
19:38:59 <elliott> And works when it loads loop.
19:39:56 <elliott> Yay, it works.
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19:43:54 <elliott> 03:44:20: <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
19:43:59 <elliott> pikhq: aw c'mon, voyager is hilarious
19:44:09 <kmc> so is being very drunk
19:44:59 <elliott> kmc: I suspect the experiences are comparable
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19:50:54 <shubshub> hi guys
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19:55:19 <kmc> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048331
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20:04:16 <elliott> shubshub: your language is really bad
20:04:26 <shubshub> why
20:04:42 <elliott> i have no idea how to articulate the reasons
20:04:51 <shubshub> ...
20:05:46 <elliott> kmc: help me out here
20:06:45 <ion> Is shubshub the alter ego of someone here?
20:06:55 <shubshub> no
20:07:09 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:07:11 <kmc> i didn't really look at it
20:07:12 <kmc> heh
20:07:16 <elliott> he's the alter ego of shubshub
20:07:18 -!- shubshub has joined.
20:07:25 <elliott> kmc: here http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:08:15 <kmc> this is terrible
20:08:34 <kmc> why do the built-in functions have terrible short names
20:08:49 <kmc> also why do you need a different function to clear the screen on linux vs windows
20:08:51 <shubshub> to make it easier
20:08:53 <kmc> shouldn't the language hide that detail
20:09:06 <ion> Apparently the function to Perform a Mathes eqaution doesn’t return the result, it prints it. So you can’t compute a Mathes eqaution such as 2+3*4 with it.
20:09:22 <kmc> wow
20:09:23 <ion> And it’s only distributed as a .pyc file, no source.
20:09:29 <kmc> wow
20:09:47 <kmc> <shubshub> to make it easier
20:09:48 <elliott> ion: that's a maths equation, not a Mathes eqaution
20:09:58 <elliott> don't you know about famous Mathesamatician John Mathes
20:10:06 <kmc> are you one of those people who believes the difficulty of programming is proportional to the number of keys you have to push?
20:10:36 <ion> elliott: I only know about Imhotep.
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20:11:58 <ion> <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
20:12:03 <ion> <shubshub> yes
20:12:07 <ion> <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
20:12:15 <shubshub> can u please stop quoting me
20:12:23 <pikhq> ion: If Jean stands exactly one nautical mile away from Lord Scotland, how tall is Imhotep?
20:13:05 <ion> pikhq: I dare not compute that, lest i suffer the Helvetica scenario.
20:13:17 <pikhq> ion: It's easy!
20:13:19 <elliott> <shubshub> can u please stop quoting me
20:13:34 <pikhq> And there's no calcium involved, so no fear of Helvetica.
20:13:35 <ion> u: Please stop quoting shubshub.
20:13:53 <ion> freenode -- u: No such nick/channel
20:15:28 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32167
20:16:01 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32171 As you can see Poison takes less coding to do Hello World :D
20:16:43 <shubshub> what do u mean
20:17:17 <elliott> you realise you wrote that sentence not ion right
20:17:38 <shubshub> yes
20:18:02 <ion> Why did you switch from Ruby to Python in the middle of implementing Poison?
20:18:19 <shubshub> Cuz I didnt like ruby that much
20:18:19 <ion> And why does the Python implementation not have hgWorld("True")?
20:18:52 <ion> And what does the g stand for?
20:19:15 <shubshub> hold on let me think
20:19:56 <shubshub> Ah
20:20:08 <shubshub> hgWorld stands for Hello/Goodbye World
20:20:23 <elliott> ok i take it back poison is my favourite language
20:20:30 <shubshub> really
20:21:17 <elliott> yes
20:21:20 <shubshub> why
20:21:23 <Bike> does hgWorld("False") print "Goodbye World !"?
20:21:33 <elliott> shubshub: well why did you make it
20:21:37 <hagb4rd> hello, goodbye, world. it's very minimalistic.. though it may be not TC
20:21:39 <shubshub> no but I Believe hgWorld("False") did
20:21:40 <elliott> some questions nobody can answer
20:21:56 <elliott> shubshub: you literally just said the exact same thing as Bike
20:22:12 <shubshub> oh sorry i didnt read it properly
20:22:30 <ion> elliott: He describes why he made it in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:22:46 <elliott> ion: well
20:22:49 <elliott> ion: i wasn't counting that
20:24:52 <kmc> what about hgWorld(True) and hgWorld(False) though
20:24:54 <kmc> what do those print
20:25:05 <ion> And how about hgWorld("Foo")?
20:25:12 <shubshub> ...
20:25:55 <kmc> !!!
20:26:05 <ion> ¿¿¿
20:27:38 <hagb4rd> ok.but i miss the two_power_eight(bool use_division_instead_of_power) function
20:45:04 <shubshub> Maybe I should redo my language with better commands or something
20:45:09 <hagb4rd> i strongly recommend removing hoovers blog entry from the topic. we should encourage folks with a positive attitude. show them where to look among the garbage and the flowers
20:45:24 <elliott> that's not even Phantom_Hoover's blog post
20:45:49 <hagb4rd> doesn't change much
20:46:20 <elliott> (that blog entry is a joke)
20:47:33 <hagb4rd> really? sry i forgo to take my meads
20:52:17 <ion> shubshub: It’s perfect the way it is.
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21:47:14 <elliott> `welcome noooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:17 <HackEgo> noooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:31 <nooodl> Thanks
21:47:37 <elliott> `welcome nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:41 <HackEgo> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:44 <elliott> i dont think you feel sufficiently welcomed yet
21:48:37 <nooodl> "THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA"?????
21:49:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
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21:49:30 <elliott> `? esoteric
21:49:30 <Gregor> Astral projection, crystal healing, the Bible, you know.
21:49:33 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:49:40 <pikhq> Gregor: :)
21:50:05 <pikhq> Though if you make an astral projection-based programming language, this is probably the appropriate place.
21:50:15 <Gregor> Indeed!
21:50:16 <nooodl> man, do you guys seriously get visited by "that kind" of people often enough for that to be in the welcome message
21:50:21 <elliott> yes
21:50:27 <Gregor> Yup.
21:50:29 <nooodl> ouch
21:50:35 <pikhq> nooodl: It's not *exceptionally* common, but it's sufficiently common that it's necessary, yes.
21:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP
21:50:43 <elliott> nooodl: do you feel welcome yet asshole
21:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: it's ok i know nooodl
21:50:52 <elliott> i'll never
21:50:52 <elliott> stop
21:50:58 <Gregor> For everyone ELSE'S sake X-D
21:51:02 <ion> `WELCOME nooodl
21:51:03 <elliott> those people dont have souls
21:51:03 <shachaf> Twist: nooodl *is* "that kind" of people.
21:51:05 <elliott> anyawy im going
21:51:28 <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
21:51:38 <Gregor> We should buy the TLD “esolangs” so that http://esolangs will work.
21:51:56 <ion> We should buy the protocol “esolangs” so that esolangs: will work.
21:52:18 <olsner> esolang:/esolang/esolang/esolang?esolang#esolang
21:52:25 <shachaf> how much does a protocol cost
21:52:32 <nooodl> host an irc server on there too
21:52:47 <Bike> however much it takes to bribe browser developers
21:53:02 <nooodl> /server esolangs
21:53:14 <Gregor> Heheh
21:53:23 <Gregor> We should build our own Internet.
21:53:29 <Gregor> With booze and hookers and esolangs.
21:53:30 <pikhq> nooodl: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:54:23 <nooodl> pikhq: ありがとう
21:55:05 <Gregor> `learn wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:55:08 <HackEgo> I knew that.
21:55:15 <pikhq> Gregor: :)
21:56:15 <Gregor> `run echo -e '#!/usr/bin/perl -w\nif (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? wercome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "wercome"; }' > bin/wercome; chmod a+x bin/wercome
21:56:17 <HackEgo> No output.
21:56:20 <Gregor> `wercome pikhq
21:56:24 <HackEgo> pikhq: wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:56:30 <Gregor> ... >_<
21:56:57 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)' > learndb/wercome
21:56:59 <HackEgo> bash: learndb/wercome: No such file or directory
21:57:04 <Gregor> Grr
21:57:23 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)' > wisdom/wercome
21:57:27 <HackEgo> No output.
21:57:31 <Gregor> `wercome pikhq
21:57:34 <HackEgo> pikhq: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:57:43 <Gregor> That took more effort than it deserved X-D
21:58:25 <shubshub> lol
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22:01:58 <elliott> `rm bin/wercome
22:02:01 <HackEgo> No output.
22:02:11 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
22:02:15 <elliott> doesnt lens use a ton of common names
22:06:59 <shachaf> Exactly.
22:07:53 <shachaf> > ("hello","world") % zipper % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip
22:07:55 <lambdabot> ("Jelly","world")
22:08:01 <elliott> well isnt that bad then
22:08:04 <shachaf> kmc: "pretty crazy huh"
22:08:15 <olsner> lambdabot should just import every single package on hackage
22:08:27 <kmc> great
22:08:36 <elliott> so how does this gel with edwardk updating lens every 2 days
22:08:40 <elliott> and lambdabot being updated every 0
22:08:45 <kmc> they should patch GHC so that if there's a name conflict, it picks the one with the most complicated type
22:09:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:09:06 <shachaf> elliott: I think you mean me updating lens every 2 days.
22:09:09 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/graphs/impact
22:09:12 <nooodl> `learn bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
22:09:15 <HackEgo> I knew that.
22:09:21 <nooodl> "true esoteric"
22:09:21 <kmc> esperanto?
22:09:26 <nooodl> yeah
22:09:39 <shachaf> Um, shouldn't we have tervetuloa?
22:09:47 <shachaf> And however you say "welcome" in Hexhammish.
22:09:58 <kmc> esperanto is the "pointless brainfuck derivative" of constructed languages
22:10:07 <ion> What’s Lojban?
22:10:11 <kmc> malbolge
22:10:14 <kmc> i dunno
22:10:19 <kmc> esperanto just seems pointless
22:10:19 <shachaf> malbolojban
22:10:25 <kmc> there are already so many romance languages
22:10:29 <kmc> they're pretty regular and easy to learn
22:10:35 <kmc> and people actually use them
22:10:39 <elliott> :t (^.)
22:10:42 <lambdabot> forall s a t b. s -> Getting a s t a b -> a
22:10:47 <elliott> i dont understand Mutator
22:10:53 <nooodl> lojban is binary lambda calculus
22:10:53 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:10:54 <shachaf> Mutator = Identity
22:10:56 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:10:59 <nooodl> "it's so 'simple'!"
22:11:01 <elliott> so that it appears in errors
22:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: ^. doesn't use Mutator
22:11:07 <elliott> er
22:11:08 <ion> kmc: But there are too many of them. Let’s make one that everyone can use! I’m sure everyone will switch to that one.
22:11:10 <elliott> :t (^=)
22:11:11 <lambdabot> forall s (m :: * -> *) a e. (Integral e, Num a, MonadState s m) => SimpleSetting s a -> e -> m ()
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22:11:19 <elliott> ok
22:11:20 <kmc> i guess esperanto makes more sense in the 19th century context where all of europe hates each other and is super proud of their own shitty local things
22:11:24 <shachaf> SimpleSetting uses Mutator
22:11:24 <elliott> so where does Mutator come into play
22:11:29 <elliott> type SimpleSetting s a = Setting s s a a
22:11:30 <elliott> does it?
22:11:36 <shachaf> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:40 <shachaf> type Setter s t a b = forall (f :: * -> *). Settable f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
22:11:41 <elliott> oh
22:11:41 <elliott> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:43 <kmc> it's a "politically neutral language that transcends nationality"
22:11:43 <elliott> ok then
22:12:18 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like Bazaar?
22:12:35 <kmc> i want a language that transcends rationality
22:12:41 <kmc> also
22:12:45 <kmc> i want a god that stays dead, not plays dead
22:13:33 <zzo38> kmc: Can you do those things?
22:13:40 <kmc> I, even I, can play dead
22:14:04 <shachaf> But can you rationalize transcendentals?
22:14:13 <kmc> doubtful
22:14:22 <ion> Time to gette some sleepe.
22:14:22 <elliott> whats wrong with bazaar
22:14:45 <shachaf> elliott: Well, there was a strictness bug in holesOf.
22:14:52 <shachaf> Now it's fixed.
22:14:57 <shachaf> But can you make it more safe?!
22:15:10 <elliott> more safe howso
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a a) s t a a -> s -> [Context a a t]
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf l a = f (ins b) (outs b) where b = l sell a f [] _ = [] f (x:xs) g = Context (g . (:xs)) x : f xs (g . (x:))
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins :: Bazaar a b t -> [a]
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins (Bazaar m) = getConst (m (Const . return))
22:15:28 <shachaf> {-# INLINE ins #-}
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs :: Bazaar a a t -> [a] -> t
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs (Bazaar m) = evalState $ m $ \c -> state $ \cs -> case cs of [] -> (c,[]) (d:ds) -> (d,ds)
22:15:40 <olsner> `learn välkommen Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
22:15:42 <shachaf> See that?
22:15:43 <elliott> more safe howso
22:15:43 <HackEgo> I knew that.
22:15:55 <shachaf> elliott: It's using lists!
22:16:03 <elliott> who cares
22:16:08 <elliott> looks total to me
22:16:17 <elliott> whats the problem
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a b) s t a b -> Lens s t [a] [b]
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf l f a = unsafeOuts b <$> f (ins b) where b = l sell a
22:16:38 <shachaf> unsafeOuts :: Bazaar a b t -> [b] -> t
22:16:39 <shachaf> unsafeOuts (Bazaar m) = evalState (m $ \_ -> state unsafeUncons)
22:16:50 <shachaf> The point is it's ugly. :-(
22:17:31 <elliott> howso
22:17:43 <elliott> how would you write it
22:18:06 <shachaf> I don't know.
22:18:20 <elliott> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t }
22:18:22 <elliott> looks fine to me
22:18:27 <elliott> problem if anything is in the functions using it
22:18:29 <elliott> so fix them
22:18:32 <elliott> define your own f i guess
22:19:07 <shachaf> The *problem* is that there's no type safety, elliott!
22:19:12 <shachaf> "start caring plz"
22:19:45 <elliott> i don't see how there's no type safety
22:20:53 <shachaf> Well, it's using regular lists, so how can you guarantee that it'll have the same number of elements?
22:21:50 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a)
22:21:59 <zzo38> I have written some things on some paper I think there is some ways to make something like it having list of same number of elements, depending what you are doing with it there is the way.
22:24:54 <elliott> shachaf: but whats wrong with bazaar's definition
22:25:13 <shachaf> Nothing's wrong with *Bazaar*.
22:25:18 <shachaf> Just the functions that are using it.
22:25:20 <zzo38> Is that the right and left bazaar? What is it?
22:25:35 <shachaf> zzo38: What's a left and right bazaar?
22:26:00 <elliott> shachaf: so change the functions, not bazaar
22:26:11 <shachaf> elliott: I never said anything about changing Bazaar.
22:26:22 <elliott> just define your own f that works as both Const and State
22:26:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know, it is why I asked.
22:26:49 <shachaf> elliott: OK, how?
22:26:58 <shachaf> kmc: Can you believe there was once a time when you cared about crazy types like that?
22:27:17 <zzo38> But I thought it was something like, newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } being the right bazaar and data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a) being the left bazaar, or something like that.
22:28:06 <elliott> shachaf: well there's such a thing as applicative product....
22:28:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Those are isomorphic.
22:28:33 <shachaf> Er wait.
22:28:42 <elliott> shachaf: so just use product of const and state?
22:28:45 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((Fin n -> b) -> t) (Fin n -> a)
22:28:52 <shachaf> elliott: Which is what?
22:28:59 <zzo38> shachaf: What is Fin in here?
22:29:08 <elliott> shachaf: Product (Const a) (State b)
22:29:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Fin n = natural numbers < n
22:29:41 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:29:45 <zzo38> shachaf: OK
22:30:53 <zzo38> O so that is how they work, OK.
22:31:11 <shachaf> Sorry for my category error before.
22:31:19 <shachaf> elliott: What's that?
22:31:24 <elliott> what's what
22:31:31 <shachaf> Product blah blah
22:31:35 <shachaf> Can you write out the type?
22:31:50 <shubshub> Im rebuilding my language
22:31:55 <shachaf> Also how does it help?
22:31:57 <shubshub> here is a new command
22:31:59 <shubshub> cat("This is a cat program", math(9, 9, "*"))
22:32:47 <elliott> shachaf: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/transformers/
22:33:24 <nooodl> shubshub: this language is the one taped onto python right
22:33:32 <shubshub> yea
22:33:44 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that'll help.
22:33:52 <nooodl> why would you write math(9, 9, "*") instead of 9 * 9
22:33:55 <elliott> well you can combine in and out
22:33:57 <elliott> nooodl: it's shorter
22:33:58 <elliott> less typing
22:34:01 <elliott> that's what poison's good at
22:34:02 <nooodl> elliott: oh
22:34:16 <monqy> you know what would be really rad
22:34:27 <monqy> !!!python, numeric python, maybe numeric python
22:34:27 <elliott> monqy: what
22:34:30 <elliott> good
22:34:48 <shachaf> monqy: do you like Bazaar
22:34:51 <shubshub> no just no monqy
22:34:57 <monqy> what's bazarre
22:35:14 <shachaf> monqy: it is spellt bizaar!!!
22:35:19 <monqy> no it's not
22:35:29 <olsner> bezoar
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22:36:38 <shachaf> monqy: oh drat, you caught me
22:37:33 <shachaf> monqy: data Bazaar a b t = Buy t | Trade (Bazaar a b (b -> t)) a
22:37:34 <monqy> yes
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22:37:58 <monqy> what's that
22:38:22 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:38:47 <monqy> ok
22:38:56 <monqy> what does it do
22:39:20 <shachaf> traverse
22:39:42 <monqy> ok
22:39:51 <shachaf> now do you like it
22:40:13 <monqy> yes
22:40:25 <shachaf> monqy: Bazaar a b t = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t -- REAL DEFINITION
22:40:39 <shachaf> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } -- ACTUAL REAL DEFINITION
22:41:41 <monqy> are you sure
22:41:45 <monqy> you seem to be changing your mind a lot !
22:42:06 <shachaf> monqy: it's a medical issue :'(
22:42:07 <copumpkin> those are all equivalent
22:42:10 <shachaf> changeminditis
22:42:21 <shachaf> hi copumpkin
22:42:23 <copumpkin> hi
22:42:23 <nooodl> monqy: A New And Much More Improved Interpreter For !!!Batch has Been developed It is Called !Py!Batch: Download It Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9zx97k7zl04xk67
22:42:35 <monqy> nooodl: i've seen that
22:42:35 <shachaf> copumpkin: I fixed the holesOf bug!
22:42:40 <copumpkin> what bug?
22:42:59 <shachaf> It was too strict.
22:43:12 <shachaf> "no longer !" !
22:43:20 <shachaf> So you you can use it on infinite lists and what not.
22:44:24 <nooodl> monqy: http://codepad.org/jThI4mnL !!!
22:44:36 <monqy> hello
22:44:43 <nooodl> line 9 is the !!!Python code
22:44:52 <shachaf> !!!Python = !Python
22:44:56 <shachaf> even in intuitionism !!!
22:44:58 <nooodl> imo "exec e('')" is part of it
22:45:53 <monqy> thhe encoding of the future
22:49:53 <shubshub> ...
22:50:02 <monqy> hi
22:50:03 <nooodl> hi
22:50:34 <elliott> hi
22:50:53 <monqy> hey remember that time we all set our names to some variation of "monqy" and said hi like a billion times
22:51:00 <monqy> me neither
22:51:12 <elliott> hi
22:51:35 <monqy> nobody is innocent
22:51:55 <elliott> that's ok because that means you're not innocent
22:51:59 <elliott> partner in crime
22:53:01 <olsner> hi?
22:53:40 <elliott> olsner: hi.
22:53:58 <olsner> elliott: hej!
22:54:17 <nooodl> hoi
22:54:26 <elliott> sup
22:54:54 <olsner> soup? no, no soup
22:57:12 <olsner> oh, macgyver ran long enough to have episodes taking place after the wallfall
23:13:01 <olsner> hmm, what previously appeared to just be poor attention to keeping up the german accent, might actually be in-character
23:15:09 <zzo38> I made a game with backgammon and chess together http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches
23:31:08 <shachaf> monqy: Is "shachaf" a variation of monqy?
23:33:45 <olsner> shachaf: yes, it's the rot13 of monqy
23:34:10 <shachaf> uh oh
23:34:12 <shachaf> ^rot13 monqy
23:34:13 <fungot> zbadl
23:34:20 <olsner> see, shachaf
23:34:26 <shachaf> elliott: Where's oerjan?
23:34:29 <shachaf> I miss oerjan.
23:34:38 <shachaf> All we have is this cheap knock-off.
23:35:52 <kmc> ꙮrjan
23:36:30 <shachaf> @∀rr
23:36:31 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:36:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan??
23:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
23:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> o oerjan
23:38:07 <shachaf> I bet he'll never come back.
23:38:39 <zzo38> How much money do you want to bet?
23:39:06 <shachaf> I'll bet you one Bazaar function.
23:39:16 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Bottle Imp_?
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:39:38 <shachaf> By Robert Louis Stevenson.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:39:44 <shachaf> I think it's the only thing of his that I've read.
23:40:03 <shachaf> elliott: :-(
23:40:06 <elliott> shachaf: Maybe you shouldn't make jokes about oerjan dying.
23:40:29 <shachaf> @tell oerjan sorry
23:40:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:40:33 -!- nooga has joined.
23:40:44 <elliott> Hmm.
23:40:47 <elliott> So it's been almost 20 days.
23:40:55 <elliott> That's... not reassuring.
23:41:03 <elliott> er, s/almost/over/
23:41:18 <elliott> Maybe I should try to get in contact with him.
23:41:56 <shachaf> You should.
23:42:12 <olsner> what if he just doesn't want to be here?
23:42:22 <shachaf> impossible
23:42:47 <elliott> olsner: that's perfectly possible... I never said I was going to drag him kicking and screaming back to the channel.
23:44:05 <olsner> he wouldn't be kicking and screaming if you chain and gag him first
23:45:20 <elliott> I guess I will just send him an email.
23:45:40 <nooga> caulk
23:46:39 <elliott> "Instead of taking up your entire Gmail window, clicking Compose now opens a smaller window at the bottom of your screen."
23:46:40 <elliott> oh good.
23:46:43 <elliott> just what i always wanted.
23:47:38 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
23:50:26 <kmc> shachaf: no, what is it?
23:50:46 <kmc> what happened to oerjan?
23:50:59 <shachaf> A short story.
23:51:07 <shachaf> I remember enjoying it years ago but that was years ago.
23:51:11 <shachaf> Maybe I should read it in English.
23:51:38 <olsner> the story of oerjan?
23:51:51 <elliott> kmc: last time he was in the channel was:
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:52:13 <elliott> probably he's just recovering or whatever
23:52:21 <elliott> but it's getting on close to a month now
23:52:23 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try to get in contact with him?
23:52:35 <elliott> shachaf: what
23:52:38 <elliott> i said that like a few minutes ago
23:52:47 <elliott> it takes time to do things
23:58:18 <elliott> Hmm, he last edited the wiki on 27 October.
23:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it doesn't help that from what oerjan's told us he's pretty recluded
23:58:23 <elliott> So... no need to worry, I guess.
23:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> unless he set up a bot to make it look like he was alive?
23:59:34 <shachaf> I bet he's logreading this right now
23:59:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Come on.
23:59:39 <shachaf> AREN'T YOU ØRJAN
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