←2012-11-02 2012-11-03 2012-11-04→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:02 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
00:00:14 <kmc> well i was wondering why he was in the hospital
00:00:17 <kmc> but maybe nobody knows
00:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> mathematician's elbow
00:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Motion to include Poison in Category:Shameful.
00:01:47 <shachaf> Housemaid's knee.
00:02:25 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:28 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:30 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:33 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:34 <FreeFull> Waait
00:02:36 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:39 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:41 <FreeFull> < shachaf>
00:02:42 <FreeFull> Where did the rest of the text go
00:02:45 <FreeFull> Wtf
00:03:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: second
00:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> it was too outrageous for your irc client to show
00:03:12 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
00:03:15 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
00:03:17 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
00:03:20 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
00:03:26 <FreeFull> That's what I meant to do
00:03:40 <Bike> so now somebody should quote you?
00:03:50 <olsner> let's misquote a bit "<oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect to survive hospital"
00:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> I probably shouldn't survive hospital
00:04:24 <olsner> let's misquote again "<oerjan> Just realized I probably should clarify that I expect not to survive hospital"
00:04:24 <shachaf> <oerjan> hi monqy
00:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> i am a penis
00:04:58 <FreeFull> <oerjan> stick it in my pooper
00:05:08 <kmc> yikes
00:05:15 <olsner> that went south quickly
00:05:39 <FreeFull> <oerjan> just like migratory birds during winter
00:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> (my sincerest apologies to oerjan's ghost)
00:06:43 <FreeFull> Wait
00:06:51 <FreeFull> Penises don't have poopers
00:11:35 <olsner> if this channel had rules or anything, that could be considered offensive
00:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought we'd established he's almost certainly better?
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00:14:59 <olsner> oerjan or his ghost?
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00:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> both i guess
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00:18:29 <SgeoN1> Finally, crossed a stable shachaf. Erm, have a stable Internet connection.
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00:22:53 <SgeoN2> For some value of stable. Better than 3g at least.
00:25:34 <zzo38> One thing that the Amber core documentation does not say is how fast will it run on the Xilinx Spartan 6?
00:28:13 <kmc> 4G? 5G?
00:28:15 <kmc> 6?
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00:32:19 <shachaf> http://gaslight.mtroyal.ab.ca/bottlimp.htm
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01:07:28 <kmc> damn it Lenovo, why won't you take my money
01:12:11 <shachaf> kmc: I hear Apple has MacBooks Air with 8GB RAM & i7.
01:12:22 <zzo38> What are you trying to buy?
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01:26:57 <Sgeo> <technomancy> you can't use clojure in GPL'd projects
01:27:08 <Sgeo> <technomancy> the EPL's patent clause is ironically considered "additional restrictions" by the GPL
01:27:14 <kmc> shachaf: no nipple pointer though
01:27:33 <kmc> oh boy my two favore things: Clojure and arguing about software licenses
01:27:47 <shachaf> True.
01:28:52 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear the RethinkDB code is out?
01:28:56 <kmc> also the keyborad is probably worse
01:28:57 <kmc> oh really
01:28:59 <kmc> cool
01:29:00 <shachaf> Apparently they've decided to AGPL3 it.
01:37:22 <shachaf> kmc: Why aren't laptops getting the crazy high-resolution displays?
01:41:38 <kmc> because copying apple takes time
01:46:18 <shachaf> Apparently you can get a $400 2560×1600 tablet these days.
01:46:34 <shachaf> But the laptop people don't even care! Ridiculous.
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02:45:08 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig2-16.jpg
02:47:14 <SgeoN2> This client has no rewson to be running.
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03:09:46 <shachaf> "One of the most familiar images in New York transit history"
03:09:53 <shachaf> Should I feel bad for not recognizing it?
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03:10:23 <kmc> obviously
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03:20:20 <kmc> also i'm impressed you back-resolved what web page that appears on
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03:21:38 <shachaf> kmc: The filename has a clue.
03:24:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29641
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03:36:09 <nooodl> zzo38: hey, is your Chronojournal still hosted somewhere? it was interesting
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03:42:55 <kmc> people don't understand probability
03:43:06 <kmc> if you say that something has a 25% chance of happening and then it happens, you are an idiot
03:43:41 <monqy> hi
03:44:10 <monqy> what if it doesn't happen are you still an idiot
03:44:11 <monqy> imo yes
03:44:42 <kmc> yeah most likely
03:44:55 <kmc> hi monqy
03:57:18 <shachaf> zzo38: You have a brother?
03:57:22 <shachaf> Who invents chess variants?
03:57:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I have a brother who has invented some chess variants.
03:58:00 <shachaf> Who invented more, you or your brother?
03:58:04 <zzo38> nooodl: I still have the software but there is no data.
03:58:16 <zzo38> shachaf: I did. However, some we have invented together.
03:58:26 <shachaf> Is it a competition?
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03:58:45 <zzo38> shachaf: No.
03:59:04 <shachaf> Who's winning?
03:59:41 <zzo38> Well, we have not played all of these games, but I won sometimes and he won sometimes. I have not keep track.
04:01:19 <zzo38> There are four files not yet published: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSrecapturablech http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSwithdrawingche http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkirachesskiras
04:05:31 <Sgeo> Ooh, backgammon+chess?
04:05:33 <Sgeo> Sounds fun
04:21:11 <zzo38> Yes
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04:38:50 * Sgeo goes to actually click the link
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04:42:49 <kmc> guys
04:43:01 <kmc> should i vote for the Green-Rainbow Party candidate for President of the United States?
04:43:29 <Bike> the hell is that?
04:43:53 <Sgeo> "It is the Massachusetts state affiliate of the Green Party of the United States."
04:44:22 <kmc> yes
04:44:42 <kmc> and there is zero chance that my vote will actually affect who is president
04:44:54 <Bike> do you support rainbows?
04:45:07 <kmc> because MA will almost certainly go for Obama, and because any world where MA goes for Romney is a world where Obama is hopelessly fucked nation-wide
04:45:13 <kmc> Bike: yes
04:45:15 <kmc> the more the merrier
04:45:21 <shachaf> You should vote for yourself.
04:45:23 <Bike> you know what you must do
04:45:25 <shachaf> kmc 2012
04:45:33 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
04:45:53 <Bike> that's right: vote for a version of yourself that has been blessed by the prism gods
04:45:56 <Sgeo> My dad thinks that NY might actually go Romney because of low turnout
04:46:16 <kmc> that seems... unlikely
04:46:28 <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
04:46:44 <Sgeo> No.
04:47:16 <kmc> urban areas probably recover faster from the hurricane
04:47:23 <kmc> and your voting place is just down the street
04:48:04 <kmc> you don't have to drive around suburbia avoiding fallen trees
04:48:52 <kmc> and Obama is ahead by 20-30 points so...
04:56:06 <kmc> "Indoor laundry drying 'poses a health risk'"
04:56:19 <kmc> was confused until i realized it's the BBC and remembered that clothes drying machines haven't been invented in the UK yet
04:56:46 <kmc> i think because of nazis or something
05:00:19 <copumpkin> like fan death, except dryer death
05:00:35 <copumpkin> they're pretty rare in italy too
05:00:56 <copumpkin> but average household power allotments is much much smaller there than it is in the UK or here
05:13:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you think that game is OK?
05:14:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, I only looked at the Chess+Backgammon one
05:14:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, interesting, although can games go indefinitely? I note that bearing off is actually reversible, in a sense, as beared off checkers can end up back in jail
05:16:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I suppose it might, although checkmate always ends the game too, and there is the randomness involved too.
05:17:00 <zzo38> But it is possible to miss a turn in the chess game, sometimes!!
05:20:07 <zzo38> (Because of this, there is no draw by repetition.)
06:00:16 <Bike> having not paid attention in several minutes: what about the 50 move draw?
06:03:05 <zzo38> Bike: There is no 50 move draw. The only draw is not having a legal FIDE move (if not in check).
06:03:20 <Bike> ah.
06:18:12 <zzo38> You can make other suggestion if you want to.
06:38:32 <zzo38> Do you know Chinese chess?
06:38:52 <Bike> I know of it, barely.
06:39:17 <Bike> Er, wait, Chinese chess more than Japanese chess, yes. If Chinese chesss is the one on a star of david looking thing.
06:40:36 <zzo38> Neither game is played on a Star of David (although that is an idea, to make up a variant involving such board)
06:41:04 <zzo38> Probably you mean Chinese Checkers, is played on the Star of David.
06:41:12 <pikhq> Bike: You're probably thinking "Chinese checkers".
06:41:13 <zzo38> Chinese Chess is a different game.
06:41:36 <Bike> oh, dammit.
06:41:37 <pikhq> Chinese chess, or xiangqi, is actually a chess derivative of sorts.
06:41:46 <pikhq> (it evolved from the same game chess evolved from)
06:41:55 <pikhq> And Japanese chess is based on that.
06:42:07 <pikhq> (aka shogi)
06:42:10 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
06:42:15 <zzo38> I can play all of those games.
06:43:54 <zzo38> I made up a variant of Xiangqi with drops similar to Shogi. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSdroppablexiang
06:44:23 <zzo38> The piece with different names are considered different kind, instead of calling them different name for the same kind of piece as is normally done.
06:48:58 <Sgeo> I mostly heard of those games in context of alternative games in Hikaru no Go
06:48:59 <Sgeo> :/
06:50:07 <pikhq> I've played Shogi. I'm not very good at it.
06:51:08 <zzo38> I have pieces and board of shogi, the board is made of paper, pieces are normal though. All of them fit in one small box.
06:58:06 <zzo38> I prefer the flat pieces used with Shogi and Xiangqi rather than the 3D figures used with FIDE.
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11:27:08 <atriq> Today's Hexham challenge: gatecrash birthday parties
11:27:13 <atriq> Three to collect!
11:28:16 <Jafet> What is Hexham.
11:29:13 <shachaf> Jafet: The dual of Finland.
11:29:16 <shachaf> Whose birthdays?
11:29:19 <shachaf> Is it elliott?
11:29:26 <shachaf> I bet it's elliott, oerjan, and monqy.
11:37:50 <atriq> Isn't elliott's birthday like in August or something
11:38:13 <shachaf> It's also in August.
11:38:19 <shachaf> Who said you can only have one a year?
11:38:25 <atriq> True, true
11:38:40 <atriq> Anyway, I must prepare for partyings!
11:38:43 <atriq> Goodbye
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11:39:00 <Jafet> Born again elliott.
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13:16:21 <Vorpal> I'm playing with USB OTG, so far my phone handled everything I threw at it
13:16:35 <Vorpal> hm lets try the printer XD
13:16:47 <Vorpal> okay... "Printer connected"... now what
13:18:51 <Vorpal> hrrm "can only print on samsung printer"? fail...
13:20:25 <Vorpal> oh hey, I could try this USB midi device...
13:21:26 <Vorpal> okay, it fails that
13:23:04 <Vorpal> USB Lego IR tower: fail
13:25:42 <fizzie> What happens if you connect it to another phone of the same model? Which one pretends to be the host and which one the device?
13:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't have more than one phone handy
13:26:03 <fizzie> Aw.
13:26:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I think it depends on who has the USB OTG cable
13:26:18 <Vorpal> since the cable itself is being detected by the phone
13:26:20 <fizzie> Mhm, that'd make sense.
13:26:25 <Vorpal> even with nothing at the other end
13:26:28 <fizzie> Does it have more than one USB port? I suppose not.
13:26:34 <Vorpal> nope
13:26:43 <fizzie> I was hoping you could connect it to itself.
13:26:45 <Vorpal> going to try my Saitek X52 Pro Joystick now
13:27:02 <Vorpal> well the joystick powers on...
13:27:09 <Vorpal> but the phone said nothing
13:27:33 <Vorpal> oh well
13:27:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it works with mouse, keyboard, USB sticks and that sort of stuff
13:27:54 <Vorpal> and apparently some printers
13:28:03 <Vorpal> hm web cam!
13:28:05 <Vorpal> lets try that
13:28:21 <Vorpal> old old old webcam
13:28:29 <fizzie> My keyboard reports "MaxPower 300mA" in lsusb -v, but it worked in the RPi's built-in USB port; was a bit worried. (Those are officially rated only for single unit load devices.)
13:28:46 <Vorpal> hm nope
13:29:02 <Vorpal> does the webcam even work *tries in a computer*
13:29:26 <Vorpal> well windows says "no driver found". Linux seems to handle it as usual with older hardware
13:29:58 <Vorpal> for the record, lsusb identifies it as a "Bus 003 Device 002: ID 046d:0870 Logitech, Inc. QuickCam Express"
13:30:28 <fizzie> Webcam support went a lot nicer ever since that gspca thing was rolled into the mainline kernel.
13:30:43 <Vorpal> I would try my graph calculator, but I have a TI BlackLink for that
13:30:46 <Vorpal> so serial port
13:31:27 <fizzie> I have a useless webcam around here somewhere too.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Does 640x480 and is usable only with very well-lit targets.
13:31:53 <Vorpal> not sure if I have any crazy stuff left to experiment with
13:31:54 <Vorpal> oh wait
13:32:02 <Vorpal> I have an old dumb phone with USB somewhere
13:32:06 <Vorpal> it is a samsung as well
13:32:09 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the Windows drivers worked a lot better, so maybe there's a gain setting that the Linux driver doesn't know about.
13:32:13 <Vorpal> so that should totally work, right? XD
13:32:59 <fizzie> Do you have any USB wifi dongles?
13:33:12 <Vorpal> nope
13:33:59 <Vorpal> samsung on samsung action: both phones turned on their screens when connected, but showed no further interest in each other. One wasn't even charging the other
13:34:08 <fizzie> Was wondering if it'd support that. Sounds a bit pointless, but not too far out.
13:34:16 <fizzie> This webcam is by Saitek.
13:34:28 <Vorpal> Saitek made webcams?
13:34:38 <fizzie> Apparently so.
13:34:50 <Vorpal> I thought they only made HID devices
13:35:00 <Vorpal> hm, HID devices is a bit silly, like PIN number
13:35:21 <fizzie> It looks like this: http://www.cbiz.nu/Media/Cache/Images/3/8/WEB_Image%20Saitek%20Flexicam%20webkamera%20%20webcam%20631362926.Jpeg
13:35:34 <fizzie> (It folds down to be a short cylindrical thing.)
13:35:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe Nokia on samsung will work better? have an old dumbphone nokia that I now use as an incredibly loud alarm clock (it rocks for that)
13:36:04 <Vorpal> think it has usb
13:36:09 <kmc> no, acronyms are words, they should be used in the clearest way without getting hung up on the etymology of the word
13:36:11 <Vorpal> might be usb mini instead of micro though
13:36:19 <fizzie> You'd think the old phone would work as a mass storage device just fine.
13:36:21 <fizzie> Bus 001 Device 028: ID 0c45:60fc Microdia PC Camera with Mic (SN9C105)
13:36:35 <fizzie> I don't think it actually has a microphone, though. But maybe it does.
13:36:41 <kmc> there are situations where "ATM machine" flows better than "ATM" in a sentence, and it's not like when people hear "ATM" they think to themselves "automated teller machine"
13:36:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, my old phones don't do mass storage
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
13:36:58 <fizzie> Well, look at that.
13:37:17 <Vorpal> ah the nokia does USB micro
13:37:22 <kmc> so yeah I think saying "Linux has good support for HID devices" sounds better than "Linux has good support for HIDs" and that's fine
13:38:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey, the nokia asks if I want to connect as "PC Suite" or "Utskrift & media" to the other thing, with "Datalagring" greyed out
13:38:17 <Vorpal> I think the last one is greyed out since it doesn't have a microsd card
13:38:39 <Vorpal> neither of the available options do anything though
13:38:51 <fizzie> [4322122.491248] input: sonixj as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:12.2/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/input/input29
13:38:56 <fizzie> Hah, the camera even has a button.
13:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny thing, that Nokia doesn't charge through USB
13:39:39 <Vorpal> it uses a separate connector for that
13:40:27 <Vorpal> hey, lego USB tower doesn't work on 64-bit windows 7
13:40:33 <Vorpal> works fine on linux still
13:40:37 <Vorpal> though not on the phone
13:41:00 <fizzie> My work phone (Nokia C2-01) came with a charger for the "small hole" (2mm or whatever), even though it does have a µUSB port, and can charge through that.
13:41:09 <Vorpal> heh
13:41:36 <fizzie> The USB hole is in the side of the phone, under one of those tiny plastic flaps, though; the regular charger connector is in the top and always open.
13:41:42 <Vorpal> hm what about my camera... if I can find the USB cable for that (it uses a non-standard connector)
13:42:20 <fizzie> I get a "type 1 (EV_KEY), code 212 (KEY_CAMERA), value 1" out of /dev/input/event10 when I press the button in the webcam.
13:42:44 <Vorpal> heh
13:43:03 <Vorpal> where the hell is the battery for the camera...
13:43:44 <Vorpal> or the charger...
13:45:51 <fizzie> Oh yes, the camera quality was just as horrible as I thought.
13:47:36 <Vorpal> hm what about a hub
13:47:43 <Vorpal> I should have a powered hub somewhere
13:47:50 <Vorpal> USB 1.1 one
13:48:39 <Vorpal> hey I found a non-optical mouse
13:48:53 <fizzie> What you should plug in your phone is one of those cell-modem USB sticks; then you could make phone calls and access the Internet over it, from your phone.
13:49:07 <Vorpal> heh
13:49:11 <Vorpal> don
13:49:14 <Vorpal> don't* have that either
13:50:40 <Vorpal> found USB hub
13:50:46 <Vorpal> not sure where the adapter to it is
13:51:02 <Vorpal> doesn't say which voltage on the port
13:51:03 <Vorpal> so eh
13:51:40 <Vorpal> not going to risk that
13:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of USB power, I have a USB stick here that requests two units of power
13:52:40 <Vorpal> weird
13:52:46 <Vorpal> it is just a 512 MB stick
13:52:57 <Vorpal> fairly old
13:55:52 <fizzie> Well, as mentioned, this keyboard requests three.
13:56:02 <fizzie> Admittedly it has a backlight kind of a thing.
13:56:31 <Vorpal> so I watched one video about Halo 4, since I was curious as to what the franchise is about (never played any Halo games)... Guess what the recommended list on the youtube front page is filled with now...
13:56:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it act as a hub as well?
13:57:13 <Vorpal> if so that is probably why
13:57:20 <fizzie> No, it's just a keyboard.
13:57:24 <Vorpal> oh
13:57:27 <Vorpal> backlight then
13:57:50 <fizzie> My #1 recommendation seems to be some *really* bizarre-looking Sonic comic thing.
13:58:09 <fizzie> Probably I clicked some links from the Sonic let's-play videos, they had some rather bizarre links too.
13:58:53 <fizzie> There's a badly drawn Sonic in a hospital bed with both hands bandaged, and an annoyed-looking Knuckles looking at him.
13:59:05 <fizzie> (In the thumbnail; I don't think I want to watch the video.)
13:59:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, youtube is currently ONLY recommending Halo
13:59:35 <Vorpal> 100%
13:59:41 <fizzie> Heh.
13:59:50 <fizzie> There probably are quite a few Halo videos around.
14:00:07 <Vorpal> I think they need a bit of inertia added to that algorithm
14:00:59 <fizzie> Gah. I went to the "recommended for you" page, and there the #1 hit is "Funny pics of Sonic and friends 2", where the thumbnail is a comic of Amy and Shadow kissing.
14:01:09 <Vorpal> who?
14:01:15 <Vorpal> I never played any sonic game
14:01:30 <Vorpal> I know who knuckles is, but Amy and Shadow? no clue
14:01:36 <fizzie> Amy is canonically Sonic's girlfriend, or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend.
14:01:39 <fizzie> She's very pink.
14:02:02 <fizzie> And Shadow is kind of like Sonic except all edgy and dark and antihero. He shoots guns, and works for G.U.N. or something.
14:02:06 <Vorpal> " or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend." <-- oh? some drama there? Unanswered love?
14:02:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think Sonic is mostly depicted as being annoyed by her.
14:02:46 <fizzie> She does seem quite annoying, so maybe that's understandable.
14:03:46 <fizzie> There was some backstory for Shadow, but I've forgotten what it was. Some kind of an attempt to create the "ultimate life form".
14:04:22 <fizzie> He's Sonic's adversary in some games, but also an ally in others.
14:05:03 <Vorpal> I see
14:05:04 <fizzie> All very interesting, I'm sure. :p
14:05:12 <Vorpal> Sonic have any sort of story to it?
14:05:18 <Vorpal> other than, beat the boss
14:05:37 <fizzie> The newer games tend to have bit more of that; and then there's of course the comics.
14:07:08 <fizzie> Sonic 3 & Knuckles have that emerald-stealing plot, so there's a bit of a story there.
14:07:42 <FreeFull> There was always Eggman trapping little animals
14:07:47 <FreeFull> And turning them into robots
14:07:54 <fizzie> Yes, there's that too.
14:08:49 <fizzie> But the new games do have cutscenes and all that fluff, and a story.
14:09:25 <nortti> what am I reading?
14:09:51 <fizzie> You're reading #esoteric, the global hub of whatever it was.
14:09:54 <fizzie> `welcome nortti
14:10:09 <fizzie> ...
14:10:14 <FreeFull> Sonic Adventure was released in 1998/1999, does that still count as new?
14:10:14 <nortti> :D
14:10:16 <HackEgo> nortti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:10:24 <nortti> FreeFull: I'd say so
14:10:35 <Vorpal> <FreeFull> And turning them into robots <-- how?
14:10:36 <nortti> but I think most people will disagree
14:10:40 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's threedee, it's new.
14:10:50 <Vorpal> it seems an terribly inefficient way to get hold of the component materials
14:10:56 <Vorpal> even if blod is quite rich in iron
14:11:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: The animals are still inside the robots.
14:11:06 <FreeFull> Original Sonic The Hedgehog came out in 1991
14:11:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay?
14:11:19 <FreeFull> So 7 years between original and Adventure
14:11:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or something like that, anyway. I really don't know what the point is.
14:11:37 <FreeFull> But 14 years between Adventure and now
14:11:38 <Vorpal> ah
14:11:57 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, yes, but it's all "new games" since Sonic & Knuckles anyway.
14:12:41 <fizzie> ("Since" in the non-inclusive sense.)
14:23:43 <fizzie> http://hs11.snstatic.fi/webkuva/oletus/560/1305612374418?ts=176 -- yesterday, this was still a water tower.
14:24:00 <fizzie> (Then the two-million-litre tank fell off, this morning.)
14:24:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, where? And was anyone hurt?
14:24:22 <Vorpal> also, what about the flood from that
14:24:28 <fizzie> In Jyväskylä; and no, there's nobody living nearby.
14:24:38 <fizzie> Or at least too nearby.
14:25:02 <fizzie> I don't think those things tend to break quite that spectacularly, usually.
14:25:42 <fizzie> Here's a "before" shot: http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/tattijuttu0311MH_uu.jpg
14:25:52 <fizzie> The stump is what's left.
14:27:45 <Vorpal> heh
14:27:57 <Vorpal> that is a very clean break
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16:53:57 <elliott> 04:46:28: <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
16:54:02 <elliott> kmc: the generalised answer to this is "no" btw
16:55:19 <elliott> 11:28:16: <Jafet> What is Hexham.
16:55:22 <elliott> Jafet: what isn't hexham
16:57:01 <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines."
16:57:06 <elliott> kmc: laws forbidding bans
16:57:13 <elliott> (re: dryer thing. why am i looking this up)
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17:00:03 <kmc> heh
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17:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "I always thought Chan4 was a branch of BBC." -- redditor
17:10:07 <kmc> that is, as i believe the kids these days say, "lulzy"
17:10:39 <kmc> one of my coworkers uses that word all the time and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me
17:11:45 <elliott> it sounds like he is trololololing you so that u mad
17:11:47 <elliott> ugh kill me
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a guy in my kitchen who is like that it is so annoying
17:16:43 <kmc> elliott: ok i'll get right on that
17:17:09 <elliott> ok
17:17:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: like, some guy just showed up in the kitchen in your house and won't leave and talks in internet memes only?
17:17:42 <kmc> that would be a good plot point for a wacky post-modern sitcom slash angst-inducing existentialist play
17:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> no, we just share a kitchen in the halls
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17:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> that would be an awesome play though
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18:45:30 <kmc> woah there are a lot of birds in my yard now
18:45:55 <kmc> two robins, two bluejays, a bunch of sparrows, a starling, and possibly a mockingbird
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18:47:38 <kmc> not as pretty as this starling though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lamprotornis_hildebrandti_-Tanzania-8-2c.jpg
18:52:27 <fizzie> A startling starling.
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19:57:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines." <-- lol what? banning cloth lines?
19:57:54 <Vorpal> in what context? Sale of them or just using them to hang clothes on?
19:59:19 * Vorpal googles it
19:59:46 <Vorpal> okay... that's weird
20:01:42 <kmc> maybe because they are deemed unsightly?
20:02:02 <Vorpal> apparently it is associated with poverty in some parts of US.
20:02:06 <Vorpal> very strange
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20:02:18 <elliott> kmc: Vorpal: you are both misreading
20:02:22 <elliott> they passed laws *forbidding* bans
20:02:26 <elliott> unless i am misreading you in turn
20:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I understand that
20:02:35 <kmc> the question is why there were bans in the first place
20:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I just find the concept of them being banned in the first place so weird
20:02:50 <kmc> and yeah http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/us/11clothesline.html
20:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so I was investigating that
20:02:54 <kmc> fucking NIMBYs
20:03:00 <Vorpal> kmc, fucking what?
20:03:23 <elliott> nimbys
20:03:29 * Vorpal googles that
20:03:42 <Vorpal> ah I see
20:04:50 <fizzie> "-- a time before clotheslines became synonymous with being too poor to afford a dryer --"
20:05:00 <fizzie> Weird stuff.
20:05:01 <kmc> it's really fucked the degree to which your neighbors can screw with your if your house doesn't match the ideal of perfect soulless suburbian mcmansion
20:05:35 <elliott> have these people ever actually used a drying machine
20:05:37 <elliott> they are sort of awful
20:05:44 <Vorpal> kmc, in US maybe... You can't really do that stuff over here
20:05:44 <kmc> elliott: no the ones in the USA are great
20:05:53 <elliott> kmc: reall
20:05:53 <elliott> kmc: really
20:05:56 <kmc> for some reason all the drying machines in the UK are awful
20:06:02 <elliott> nice
20:06:02 <kmc> i blame hitler
20:06:28 <elliott> clothes-line-dried clothes are really nice though, i am going to be a luddite and say not even fancy us drying machines can compare
20:06:39 <Vorpal> heck you don't even need to contact the planning offices if what you are building is small enough (forgot exact size, iirc something like 8 m² or such)
20:07:27 <kmc> houses in the UK are destroyed => flimsy post-war houses built with shitty wiring => can't run a clothes dryer
20:07:33 <kmc> ring circuits!
20:07:40 <Vorpal> hah
20:07:52 <kmc> in the USA a clothes dryer is a huge thing which plugs into a special outlet that has twice as many volts as usual
20:08:07 <fizzie> Your twice as many volts, isn't that our regular? :p
20:08:08 <kmc> and it will dry a big load of clothes completely in about an hour
20:08:11 <kmc> yeah
20:08:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, you beat me to that
20:08:30 <kmc> presumably it is rated for more current as well, but i don't know the figure off hand
20:08:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that is just 220 actually
20:08:58 <Vorpal> we use 230
20:09:02 <kmc> probably 30A
20:09:06 <fizzie> Well *our* dryers plug into three-phase power. (Not really.)
20:09:29 <Vorpal> hey, I think our washing machine is three phase
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20:11:07 <Vorpal> and the stove. Since there are three fuses protecting it and parts of it still works when the fuses are blown.
20:11:23 <Vorpal> don't have a cloth drier though
20:11:55 <fizzie> Some of the washing machines in some more communal laundry places have used industrial plugs -- the IEC 60309 "CEE" ones -- though I haven't checked whether it's single-phase or three-phase.
20:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, is your stove three phase though?
20:12:28 <fizzie> Sure.
20:12:50 <Vorpal> I think there is also a three phase outlet in the greenhouse
20:12:55 <Vorpal> since I
20:13:02 <fizzie> But the washing machine isn't; it's just regular Schuko.
20:13:06 <fizzie> Then again, it's pretty dinky.
20:13:10 <Vorpal> I'm not the one interested in gardening in this household I have no idea what it is used for
20:13:15 <Vorpal> some sort of heating or something maybe?
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20:14:48 <fizzie> "A small number of marinas provide 230 V single-phase power through a red three-phase connector (breaking the relevant standards in the process). This goes some way to ensuring that only boats that have paid the required fee (and thus obtained an appropriately made-up adaptor cable) are able to use the electricity." Heh, nasty.
20:15:12 <Vorpal> hah
20:15:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or you could make one yourself pretty easily
20:16:06 <Lumpio-> Wouldn't it be easier to, I dunno, put locks on the power boxes
20:16:18 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, probably
20:17:35 <fizzie> We've got a blue CEE 2P+E single-phase <-> Schuko adapter in the boat, since marinas indeed quite often have the former.
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20:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, does the former have any advantage?
20:18:43 <Vorpal> like water resistance or something?
20:18:49 <fizzie> I suppose it's maybe more rugged by default.
20:18:55 <Vorpal> ah
20:19:13 <fizzie> Though you could just put a flap on top of the regular outlet.
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20:19:39 <fizzie> Maybe it's rated for a bit more current too, the standard size is I think 16A.
20:19:54 <fizzie> I just seem to recall that's Schuko's rating too.
20:20:16 <fizzie> Apparently so.
20:24:41 <kmc> 'Ruby on Rails Jobs - www.mirRoRplacement.com - All we do is work with startups seeking Ruby on Rails developers.'
20:24:56 <kmc> 'Rails didn’t just help us build better web apps, it introduced us to the most welcoming and nourishing developer community we’ve experienced.'
20:24:59 <kmc> mmmmmm yes nourishing
20:25:34 <fizzie> I was looking at this µUSB charger that came with a Bluetooth headset, to see if I could use it also to provide power to the RPi; it's a mains-powered standalone charger, but according to the markings it manages to provide the 5V DC current at a stupendous 180 mA.
20:25:43 <fizzie> No wonder charging the phone with that didn't quite work out.
20:26:21 <fizzie> (The phone's own bundled charger does 1.2A or so.)
20:29:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex do you have this kind of thing? It mentions "Sweden" in the first paragraph.
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20:29:34 <FreeFull> Never saw one of those before
20:29:54 <fizzie> It looks kind of silly.
20:30:09 <elliott> fizzie: PerilEx sounds like a Win32 API function that gives extended peril.
20:30:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you seen the bottom of https://www.apple.com/uk/ ? Heh.
20:30:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, not familiar with it.
20:30:43 <elliott> Vorpal: that is less flashy than i was hoping
20:30:49 <elliott> i was hoping for a full-page "samsung tablets are awesome" ad
20:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, quite so
20:31:14 <Vorpal> Weren't those supposed to go into news papers or something?
20:31:19 <Vorpal> have that happened yet
20:31:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall that the earlier statement was more like "the court said our tables are significantly cooler, so there, nyah nyah".
20:31:39 <fizzie> Tablets.
20:31:47 <fizzie> Though I'm sure Apple's tables are quite cool too.
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21:54:32 <kmc> Tables, reinvented. Again.
21:54:42 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy has been UPDATed
21:55:12 <elliott> hi
21:57:46 <monqy> hi
22:02:58 <monqy> Sgeo: add nooodl to the list btw
22:03:10 <nooodl> hi
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22:15:57 <ais523> my mother is trying to install a purchased copy of Office on a new computer
22:16:08 <ais523> doing so apparently requires creating a Windows Live account before they'll tell you your product key
22:16:22 <ais523> and giving a lot of personal information as a result
22:16:27 <ais523> she doesn't understand why
22:18:06 <ais523> anyone here have a built-in explanation?
22:18:37 <kmc> microsoft gotta get paid
22:19:06 <ais523> this is after buying a copy of office, though
22:20:02 <FreeFull> :/
22:20:14 <FreeFull> Wtf would Office require a live account
22:20:25 <nooodl> ais523: which office version is that?
22:20:55 <ais523> 2010, no-CD-in-box version
22:21:07 <ais523> they give you a code that you can put into their website to get the product key
22:21:15 <ais523> but the website also forces you to log in
22:21:46 <kmc> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/10/31/nyregion/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN-jumbo.jpg
22:22:10 <kmc> presumably it makes it harder in some way to use the same key twice
22:23:56 <nooodl> i'm thinking it's an anti-piracy thing yeah
22:28:40 <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine
22:28:48 <kmc> hahahaha
22:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> good one Vorpal
22:29:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the powerpoint replacement is kind of terrible, but the spreadsheet and document editing parts are okay
22:29:47 <Vorpal> at least for me
22:29:57 <Sgeo> Unless you're trying to work on documents that are slightly more complicated than an essay with someone who uses Office.
22:30:03 <kmc> do they properly import and export -- yeah
22:30:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, hm okay. Is that with docx or doc though?
22:30:21 <Vorpal> never really worked with docx
22:30:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, even if doc worked perfectly, if docx doesn't, are you really going to convince everyone to save as doc?
22:31:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we use .doc, .xls and so on at work for compatibility reasons, even though we have modern office
22:31:36 <Vorpal> so eh, doesn't seem unreasonable
22:33:07 <Vorpal> I don't have office at home, works just fine for me.
22:33:24 <Vorpal> don't use libreoffice a lot either though.
22:34:20 <nortti> why is everyone using libreoffice instead of openoffice?
22:34:44 <Vorpal> when I last installed/upgraded it, openoffice was oracle, not sure if that is still the case
22:34:54 <nortti> no. it is now apache
22:34:57 <Vorpal> ah
22:35:03 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the difference nowdays then
22:35:53 <nortti> Vorpal: openoffice is under apache license
22:36:08 <Vorpal> fair enough
22:36:14 <Vorpal> nortti, and the other one is under gpl?
22:36:30 <nortti> yes
22:36:37 <Vorpal> I couldn't care less then.
22:36:42 <Vorpal> any feature differences?
22:37:18 <nortti> I think no
22:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> one of them is run by oracle, no?
22:37:42 <nortti> not anymore
22:37:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except it isn't any longer it seems
22:37:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oracle divested OpenOffice to Apache.
22:37:50 <tswett> Hey, you know these? http://i.imgur.com/VpfZV.jpg
22:37:59 <tswett> I just made a subreddit for them. http://www.reddit.com/r/westwoods/
22:38:13 <pikhq> LibreOffice is by far the better one.
22:38:22 <nortti> why?
22:39:21 <pikhq> A major part of their development has been targetted towards "making it not suck". They've removed tons of dead code, and made it *actually integrate* into the UI on Linux systems...
22:39:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, which UI on linux? All of them?
22:39:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It integrates with GTK2, GTK3, and Qt.
22:40:01 <Vorpal> aww, no motif
22:40:07 <nortti> aww, no xaw
22:40:21 <pikhq> Only the useful targets.
22:40:28 <nortti> why nothing integrates to my twm desktop?
22:40:31 <Vorpal> what about CDE? for those poor SunOS users out there?
22:40:33 <pikhq> OO.o just looked like a Win95 program.
22:40:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: *Solaris* has been on GNOME for over a decade now. :)
22:40:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, I know
22:41:01 <Vorpal> guess why I said SunOS specifically
22:41:03 <pikhq> Fuck SunOS.
22:41:12 <Vorpal> true
22:41:21 <nortti> why?
22:41:40 <Vorpal> it is ancient=?
22:41:43 <Vorpal> s/=//
22:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti confirmed to be obnoxiously curious toddler
22:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> news at 11
22:42:16 <nortti> :D
22:42:38 <nortti> but really, what is so wrong with SunOS and Solaris
22:42:40 <nortti> +?
22:42:51 <kmc> but Motif is now free software!!!
22:43:04 <nortti> and so is cde
22:43:07 <Vorpal> kmc, heirloom or what?
22:43:19 <kmc> don't know what that means
22:43:27 <Vorpal> heirloom toolkit
22:43:32 <Vorpal> some old *nix tools
22:43:44 <Vorpal> probably even older ones though
22:43:49 <Vorpal> sysv and such iirc
22:43:50 <kmc> what does that have to do with motif
22:43:52 <Vorpal> forgot the details
22:44:00 <Vorpal> kmc, motif would fit right into there :P
22:44:06 <Vorpal> who uses it these days
22:44:32 <nortti> I do
22:44:51 <nortti> I use either motif, xaw or tk
22:44:51 <kmc> i would guess that "Fuck SunOS" is by contrast to Solaris
22:45:24 <elliott> tswett: is your name greg
22:46:12 <tswett> elliott: yes.
22:46:18 <tswett> Well, no.
22:46:19 <elliott> tanner greg swett
22:46:30 <tswett> But it's part of my reddit username.
22:46:33 <shachaf> Did someone say something about uncomputable axioms?
22:46:38 <monqy> hi shachaf
22:46:58 <tswett> Yeah, there's this funny thing I learned recently.
22:47:01 <tswett> I'll have to tell you about it later.
22:47:16 <shachaf> hi monqy
22:47:21 <shachaf> monqy: how's monqying
22:47:27 <monqy> ok
22:47:37 <shachaf> just ok :'(
22:48:33 <ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine ← she says it's so that the corporate IT people where she works won't refuse to support her when she has trouble showing a presentation
22:48:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:21 <Vorpal> ah
22:49:28 <Vorpal> fair enough
22:49:50 <Vorpal> ais523, but that is on her home computer?
22:49:53 <Vorpal> hm
22:50:03 <ais523> Vorpal: she's making the presentations at home and showing them at work
22:50:07 <Vorpal> ah
22:50:49 <shachaf> monqy: make a smiley face
22:50:58 <monqy> why should i
22:51:24 <nortti> monqy: because :)
22:54:13 <ais523> haha, the words "Completing Office setup" are being shown in the windows 3.1 system font
22:54:22 <ais523> except it seems to have been doubled in size by doubling the pixels
22:55:36 <nortti> what?
22:55:40 <nortti> what office?
22:57:06 <elliott> imagine a world in which nortti does not pretend not to konw what people are talking about
22:57:35 <monqy> sorry elliott i can't
22:57:39 <monqy> my imagination: kaput???
22:58:44 <elliott> monqy: kaput is such a good word
22:58:50 <elliott> can you think of a better word; i can't
22:59:33 <monqy> not off the top of my head. imagination remember
23:00:11 <elliott> remembering things isn't imagination, monqy
23:00:16 <shachaf> elliott: what about: doff
23:00:37 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:00:43 <shachaf> elliott: what about: paraphernalia
23:00:52 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:01:10 <shachaf> elliott: what about: אצטרובל
23:01:21 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:01:45 <shachaf> elliott: what about: hypothesisn't
23:02:05 <nortti> elliott: I am not sure if it is refering to openoffice, libreoffice or (most probably) microsoft office
23:02:41 <monqy> too bad ais never said which it was earlier
23:02:46 <shachaf> elliott: what about: experiphysically
23:02:51 <shachaf> elliott: help
23:02:55 <elliott> shachaf: what is the point of this
23:03:10 <elliott> nortti: do you use Vorpal's irc client
23:03:11 <shachaf> elliott: good point
23:03:19 <nortti> elliott: no. why do you ask?
23:03:49 <elliott> Vorpal's irc-client is well-known to not support backlog
23:04:00 <nortti> why?
23:04:17 <elliott> you'd have to ask him
23:04:37 <elliott> some suspect that it was not his client but in fact himself who chose to not read backlog to the inconvenience of others
23:04:41 <elliott> but those are just rumours
23:05:57 <nortti> I think I found the lin you were talking about but it looks like this: 00:48 < ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, �~augur@] has quit [Remote host closed the connecti
23:06:24 <elliott> it was actually more like 30 lines
23:06:34 <ais523> nortti: for reference, Microsoft Office 2010
23:06:40 <ais523> (the exact version number hadn't been mentioned before)
23:06:43 <ais523> Home & Student
23:07:06 <nortti> elliott: that is only ais line I can find before my backlog goes so corrupted it can't be read
23:07:23 <elliott> maybe you should use an irc client that doesn't corrupt your backlog
23:07:27 <elliott> quite a good feature IMHO
23:07:31 <nortti> I am using irśssi
23:07:46 <elliott> i don't dare to ask how that differs from irssi
23:07:55 <nortti> *irssi
23:08:52 <nortti> the problem is either ncurses version in broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009, irssi compiled wrong or screen messing something up
23:09:25 <monqy> have you asked the geek squad
23:09:30 <nortti> no
23:09:49 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:10:25 <nortti> elliott: it is not my server. it is mailserver of my irc friend
23:10:47 <nortti> monqy: irssi is up to date
23:11:00 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:11:22 <nortti> elliott: yes. the problem was not present on my own computer
23:12:31 <monqy> but you'r still using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009??
23:12:48 <monqy> is this some sort of friend agreement
23:12:52 <nortti> no
23:12:57 <monqy> use the mailserver or you are no longer pals
23:13:03 <elliott> monqy: the dumpster gods wanted his computer back
23:13:12 <nortti> oh no!
23:13:19 <nortti> don't take my computer!
23:13:41 <nortti> monqy: it is just so much easier to run irssi on server I can stab
23:13:49 <nortti> *stand backlog corruption
23:14:18 <Sgeo> elliott, do you still SO?
23:14:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/12kz49/what_optimizations_can_ghc_be_expected_to_perform/
23:14:44 <Sgeo> "[SO, bounty, expires in 20 hours]"
23:15:00 <elliott> i answer questions on SO occasionally when i feel like it
23:15:24 <elliott> writing a gigantic answer in 20 hours for some points is not quite up my alley
23:15:34 <elliott> it's not even that large a bounty!! i need larger internet point bribes than that
23:15:45 -!- augur has joined.
23:15:50 <ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range: ņ and then it continues on afterwards
23:15:55 <ais523> how does it look for you?
23:17:04 <nortti> ais523: < ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range:
23:17:25 <nortti> that is 2 lines by the way
23:17:30 <ais523> nortti: "and then it continues on afterwards"
23:17:42 <nortti> hmm
23:17:48 <elliott> ņhi guys what's up
23:17:59 <ais523> elliott: that was my idea too
23:18:06 <nortti> ok. it seems it converts utf-8 to latin-1 and then back to utf-8
23:18:13 <nortti> just why
23:18:14 <elliott> ņ ais523: it was someone else's, also
23:18:25 <elliott> ņ something about microsoft office
23:18:38 <ais523> elliott: how did you hide lines from Vorpal, again?
23:18:41 <ais523> was it starting them "ehird:"?
23:18:56 <nortti> elliott: I can see what you are talking about from logs
23:19:06 <shachaf> ehird: hi monqy
23:19:11 <elliott> ņ if you have to read the logs, then you'll be able to see the context
23:19:13 <elliott> shachaf: shut up
23:19:29 <elliott> ais523: i forget
23:19:32 <shachaf> elliott: Make ais523 kick me!
23:19:35 <shachaf> spam
23:19:35 <shachaf> spam
23:19:36 <shachaf> spam
23:19:39 <shachaf> ais523: ☝
23:19:44 <nortti> well not straight from the logs but tail -f irclogs/freenode/\
23:19:51 <elliott> shachaf: how about you just stop being a fucking moron and embarrassing yourself by acting like an idiot whenever me or monqy talks
23:19:52 <elliott> thanks
23:20:02 <nortti> *tail -f irclogs/freenode/\#esoteric.log | cat -v works
23:20:05 <ais523> shachaf: this is not an interesting meme
23:20:18 <ais523> and it's one that's quite harmful for productive discussion
23:20:24 * nortti kicks shachaf
23:20:25 <ais523> about the best you can hope for is everyone ignoring you
23:20:34 <shachaf> Hmm.
23:20:43 <shachaf> That's a good deal worse than kicking. :-(
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