←2012-11-07 2012-11-08 2012-11-09→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, hey?
00:28:25 <Arc_Koen> hello Phantom_Hoover
00:28:30 <Arc_Koen> how are things going?
00:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hey no you started this
00:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> you finish it
00:36:09 <Arc_Koen> well, things are going pretty well here
00:37:18 <Arc_Koen> I've got a driving license, and I just tonight shared a beer with a friend with whom things have been... rather cold... for the past several months
00:39:36 <Arc_Koen> so it's a pretty good week overall
00:41:25 <Arc_Koen> the only downside is my back aches a lot since sunday
00:43:10 <Arc_Koen> I'm in the middle of a first-aid course that lasts over three week-ends and we started the stretcher / carrying / whatever you call that / thing where you carry a victim, sunday
00:44:14 <Arc_Koen> and half-way through it I realized the way I stood was not as perfect as I believed and well my back is doing a very good job at reminding me of that
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00:44:47 <Arc_Koen> but the only thing you have to remember out of all that is that I'm very happy right now and feel the need to share
00:45:12 <Arc_Koen> even though right now it does feel like I'm talking to myself
00:45:35 <Sgeo_> Power blinked out
00:46:30 <Arc_Koen> they have this thing in france, one day every year they ask everybody to shut down everything
00:46:35 <Arc_Koen> lights, computers, tv, etc.
00:46:52 <Arc_Koen> (well I'm pretty sure no one ever shuts down the refrigerator on that occasion)
00:47:02 <Arc_Koen> at a given time, usually between 7pm and 8pm
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00:47:59 <Arc_Koen> hoping to show a huge decrease of power decrease over the country
00:48:11 <Arc_Koen> of course it never works
00:48:33 <Arc_Koen> and at 8pm when all those who followed the movement try getting everything on again
00:48:55 <Arc_Koen> well it often doesn't work :)
00:50:56 <kmc> http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/14/because-of-constitution-error-north-dakota-is-not-a-state-and-never-has-been/
01:15:42 <ais523> anyway, I figured out what was up with cs.bham.ac.uk
01:15:49 <ais523> a substation explosion nearby took out all the power to the entire area
01:16:00 <ais523> and the disaster response people decided it was inessential and so didn't hook it up to a generator
01:21:40 <kmc> http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=890
01:30:35 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that the mapping from usernames to full name at MIT is world readable via DNS?
01:30:38 <kmc> dig -t txt gjs.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu
01:30:40 <kmc> you can also see what shell people use
01:32:09 <elliott> aww, kmc.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu doesn't work
01:32:16 <elliott> does gjs really use tcsh
01:32:20 <elliott> :/
01:34:27 <Arc_Koen> coppro: can you please explain what's wrong with stargate at the end of season 8?
01:34:43 <Arc_Koen> the two time-travel episodes didn't make any sense to me
01:34:57 <Arc_Koen> it's like nothing happened at all
01:35:17 <Arc_Koen> and the first episode of season 9 is ridiculous
01:35:20 <Sgeo_> Arc_Koen, at that point, the plot of the first 8 seasons is finished, because the series was expected to be cancelled.
01:35:33 <Sgeo_> So, completely new plot.
01:35:36 <Arc_Koen> ok
01:35:50 <coppro> Arc_Koen: It's not wrong
01:35:52 <Arc_Koen> so they decided to end the plot three episodes before the end of the season?
01:36:12 <coppro> Arc_Koen: So at the end of nearly every season, they thought SG-1 would be cancelled
01:36:23 <coppro> I think seasons 1, 9, and maybe 5 are exceptions
01:36:33 <coppro> In 7, the renewal didn't come until very very late
01:36:39 <coppro> so Lost City was written to be the series finale
01:36:45 <kmc> elliott: my athena username isn't kmc
01:36:47 <kmc> it's taken or some shit
01:36:55 <kmc> i don't really like 'kmc' either
01:36:55 <coppro> Season 8 was kind of mopping up and grasping at any unresolved plotlines
01:37:03 <kmc> i try to go by 'keegan' but i'm usually not able to
01:37:06 <Arc_Koen> coppro: they're trapped in a room with the ceiling moving down and the riddle they have to solve is to order a sequence of 9 symbols which happen to be 9 digits mirrored
01:37:29 <elliott> kmc > keegan imo
01:37:31 <coppro> By Season 9, they decided they needed to do a reboot, hence the episode you're watching
01:37:31 <Arc_Koen> how is that not wrong
01:37:33 <kmc> it is short
01:38:03 <coppro> The plot of seasons 9 and 10 is generally agreed to be not as good as the plot that was built up over the first 7
01:39:00 <Arc_Koen> also, they start the whole thing as "daniel jackson, teal'c, carter are no longer part of the team"... but the opening sequence lists them as the main characters
01:39:21 <Arc_Koen> which is a stupid way of spoiling things, in my opinion
01:39:38 <coppro> hwh
01:39:40 <coppro> *heh
01:40:06 <coppro> also, in seasons 9 & 10, landry < hammond and mitchell <<<<< o'neill
01:40:19 <Arc_Koen> yeah
01:40:32 <Arc_Koen> I do like the kind of "silent humour" carried away in the episode, though
01:41:01 <Arc_Koen> I mean, most humorous series seem to feel the need to "oeverexplain" every joke
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01:41:32 <Arc_Koen> they don't do that in stargate (at least most of the time) and mitchell did respect that
01:41:34 <madbr> how fast at sorting are 8bit and 16bit processors?
01:41:51 <Arc_Koen> but yeah I miss hammond a lot
01:42:05 <Arc_Koen> and season 8 really felt like it was the end
01:42:30 <Arc_Koen> "we're missing a fourth team member... uh, let's stall things for one season before getting a new character"
01:42:44 <coppro> haha
01:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> are you people discussing stargate AGAIN
01:44:25 <Arc_Koen> yes
01:44:37 <Arc_Koen> btw, you mentioned I should watch atlantis at the same time as season 9,
01:44:40 <Sgeo_> Built by ancients so long ago
01:44:46 <Sgeo_> Arc_Koen, wrong season.
01:45:02 <madbr> if you can do fast sorts you can do a graphic architecture that's really simple but can do tons of moving sprites etc
01:45:04 <Arc_Koen> wrong season?
01:45:05 <Sgeo_> Well, I guess it overlaps, but not "starting at season 9"
01:45:15 <coppro> yeah
01:45:23 <Arc_Koen> well, if you have any more precise advises they are very welcome
01:45:31 <coppro> Arc_Koen: The first three seasons of Atlantis and the last three episodes of Atlantis overlap
01:45:36 <Sgeo_> I think the SG-1/SGA overlap starts at the beginning of season 8? I'm not sure
01:45:54 <Sgeo_> coppro, uh... last three episodes of Atlantis? Wat?
01:45:58 <coppro> err
01:46:00 <Sgeo_> Last three seasons of SG-1?
01:46:01 <coppro> *last three seasons of SG-1
01:46:05 <Arc_Koen> ok
01:46:13 <coppro> For instance, the last epsiode of Season 8 where they want to get a ZPM makes much more sense if you watch Atlantis
01:46:22 <coppro> maybe not "much"
01:46:25 <coppro> but certainly more sense
01:46:36 <coppro> so I would recommend watching them concurrently, even to alternate episodes
01:46:38 <Sgeo_> I should rewatch SG-1 and SGA with that overlap
01:46:42 <Arc_Koen> well, I was assuming they'd need to find atlantis before the SGA would make sense
01:46:45 <Sgeo_> I finished SG-1 before watching SGA
01:46:51 <coppro> Arc_Koen: They find it in the premiere for Atlantis
01:47:18 <Arc_Koen> sooo you're saying at the beginning of season 9 they have already found it?
01:47:24 <coppro> yes
01:47:25 <Arc_Koen> they failed to mention that
01:47:26 <coppro> for an entire season
01:47:36 <coppro> no it was definitely a relevant plot point in Mobius
01:47:47 <Arc_Koen> I thought they only had the arctantica outpost
01:47:54 <Sgeo_> I'm pretty sure at beginning of some season Daniel wants to go to Atlantis, and treats it as a regular but lengthy trip
01:48:05 <Arc_Koen> antarctica
01:48:29 <Arc_Koen> oh, yes he did mention having to get aboard the daedalus
01:48:37 <Arc_Koen> though never said where it was heading
01:48:47 <Arc_Koen> or rather, not at a time where I was listening
01:48:58 <coppro> There's an SG-1 episode late in Season 9 that takes place a fair bit on Atlantis
01:49:14 <Arc_Koen> in fact it took me a certain time to make the connection with the "new ship" they had described previously
01:49:53 <Arc_Koen> so, I should watch the first season of SGA before I continue with season 9?
01:49:58 <coppro> I would recommend it
01:50:00 <Arc_Koen> ok
01:50:15 <coppro> Pegasus Project in particular will make a lot less sense without it
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01:59:15 <shachaf> kmc: Nope.
02:00:34 <shachaf> I don't know many MIT people, though.
02:02:30 <shachaf> kmc: You can also finger gjs@mit.edu
02:02:44 <shachaf> I guess that won't tell you their shell.
02:36:47 <kmc> what the fuck lenovo
02:36:49 <kmc> why won't you take my money
02:37:44 <shachaf> They'd be happy take your money and give you an unsatisfactory product.
02:37:56 <shachaf> Or they'd be happy to take a lot of your money in AUD form.
02:37:57 <kmc> true
02:38:05 <kmc> even then they won't ship it to USA
02:38:53 <shachaf> You should move to .au.
02:38:54 <shachaf> In protest.
02:39:40 <kmc> seriously
02:46:12 <kmc> fuck lenovo
02:46:17 <kmc> i wish there were any other credible option
02:51:22 <shachaf> Is there not?
02:54:25 <kmc> i think the pointing stick is a must-have feature for me
02:54:56 <kmc> though if i didn't have one, maybe i would get better at avoiding the mouse and that would be good
02:56:11 <kmc> not a lot of ultrabooks have it
02:58:04 <kmc> the Latitude 6430u does but it weighs almost a pound more than the X1c
03:00:08 <kmc> screen sucks too
03:00:16 <kmc> what is this 1366 x 768 bullshit
03:02:51 <shachaf> :-(
03:03:10 <shachaf> You can get a $400 10" tablet with a 2560×1600 screen these days.
03:03:17 <shachaf> What's happening to laptops?
03:05:23 <kmc> well
03:05:27 <kmc> apple has the retina display
03:05:33 <kmc> PC manufacturers will copy it within 1-3 years
03:05:38 <kmc> that's how the industry works
03:13:36 <shachaf> :-(
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05:54:38 <Sgeo> Conservapedia is blaming early voting.
05:54:39 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Main_Page
05:55:14 <Bike> glad to have contributed to the demise of conservagod, then!
05:56:27 <Sgeo> Seems to be something about voter intimidation (huh?) and security of the early ballots
05:56:32 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Early_voting
05:57:09 <Sgeo> Conservapedia is also linking to http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/akin-not-far-off-base-in-rape-comment/
05:57:34 <Bike> not even clicking something with that url
05:59:13 <kmc> stop trolling by proxyp
05:59:15 <kmc> proxy even
06:02:22 <kmc> http://www.bing.com/elections/news?q=elections+2012+leans_center&form=bngeex&filter=leans_center
06:02:26 <kmc> see that slider at the top?
06:02:33 <kmc> bing literally has a button for "show me only opinions i will agree with"
06:02:53 <kmc> i mean that's what the Internet is all about, but rarely is it so explicit
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06:35:40 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/12s9wx/puerto_rico_has_voted_to_join_the_union_it_is_to/
06:36:27 <kmc> "It is to be the 51st state" uh, that's a bit of an overstatement
06:36:38 <kmc> puerto rico has passed a non-binding referendum saying that they would like to be a state
06:36:46 <kmc> now it is up to the federal government to do something about that, or not
06:41:14 <coppro> kmc: More like, it's up to the Puerto Rican government to put together a formal application
06:41:20 <coppro> and to Congress to debate endlessly about taxes
06:42:13 <kmc> i guess it would be too much to expect reddit to have a non-sensationalistic approach to a political story
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06:59:52 <pikhq_> It does *kinda* make sense though: Puerto Rico's unwillingness in the past has been the primary barrier to their statehood.
07:00:35 <kmc> is that just because the other barriers haven't been tested yet, thuogh?
07:00:41 <kmc> i don't really know either way
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07:20:59 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure where Puerto Rico is
07:21:14 <Sgeo> As far as geography is concerned, I'm a stereotypical American.
07:21:23 <kmc> google maps is your guide
07:21:46 <kmc> it is east of cuba, haiti, and dominican republic
07:21:53 <Sgeo> Was going to check Wikipedia but Google Maps is good too
07:22:42 <Sgeo> Hmm. Reminds me more of Alaska than Hawaii, since there are other intervening countries between the US mainland and it.
07:23:10 <Bike> gotta be careful of the threat of invasion from haiti.
07:27:05 <Sgeo> If Puerto Rico wanted independence instead, would that be possible?
07:27:36 <pikhq_> Technically.
07:27:40 <Sgeo> My understanding is if they go state, they can't go back. I think there was some war about it
07:27:51 <Bike> it's not like territories haven't become independent before.
07:27:58 <pikhq_> That war was a clusterfuck.
07:28:07 <coppro> Sgeo: They can't go back without permission
07:28:25 <Sgeo> Ah
07:28:39 <coppro> If a state really wanted to secede and it wasn't over something stupid, they could try to rustle support for an amendment to allow secession
07:28:55 <coppro> (they could try that if it was over something stupid too; it would just be less likely to work)
07:29:22 <pikhq_> In principle a bunch of states could boot one out.
07:29:23 <fizzie> "Once you go tentacle, you stay in the pentacle", like they say.
07:29:36 <pikhq_> We could just decide to make a new amendment: "Texas is not a state."
07:29:45 <pikhq_> And approve it via convention.
07:29:45 <kmc> yes, Phillipines used to be a US territory
07:30:28 <Sgeo> ...I almost mentally mixed up the Phillipines and Paraguay
07:30:44 <kmc> good for you
07:31:03 <Bike> of course, the philippines had previously had a few wars about becoming independent, which I don't think is true of puerto rico
07:31:56 <coppro> pikhq_: true
07:32:42 <pikhq_> Heck, in theory the entire US could be disbanded that way.
07:32:52 <pikhq_> Without Congress even being involved.
07:36:36 <kmc> amend the constitution to remove every word
07:36:56 <kmc> and replace it with a picture of a duck
07:37:24 <kmc> would the laws passed by Congress continue to have force even if the constitution were nullified?
07:37:50 <kmc> i guess there is no framework for answering that question
07:37:57 <kmc> except Common Law™
07:38:06 <pikhq_> kmc: Only in DC.
07:38:07 <pikhq_> :)
07:38:17 <pikhq_> Congress is the government of DC.
07:39:07 <Sgeo> Well, if we assume that laws must get their authority from the Constitution, where does the Constitution get its authority from? IIRC, the Constitution wasn't validly transitioned to under the Articles of Confederation
07:39:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Consent of the governed.
07:40:49 <kmc> and the Articles of Confederation were never approved by the King!
07:41:38 <kmc> but yeah, blah blah consent of the governed blah handwave common law social contract mumble mumble we used our guns to shoot the other guys you didn't like and now we say what goes
07:41:56 <pikhq_> Yup.
07:42:32 <kmc> it's funny how similar organized crime and government are
07:43:15 <kmc> i mean, i'm a liberal, i like taxation and government services, but I still agree with the libertarian premise that at a basic level, taxation is theft
07:43:20 <kmc> i would say that it's the lesser of two evils
07:43:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, wondering how to make a nomic that does that sort of thing, that the rules can be ignored if there's a war or people ... vaguely agree
07:43:30 <kmc> people suck and deserve to have some of their stuff stolen from time to time for the greater good
07:45:03 <pikhq_> kmc: So, in short, you're a utilitarian who is honest about what is actually going on. :)
07:45:11 <kmc> i flatter myself by thinking so, yes
07:46:13 <kmc> gotta sleep now, ttyl all
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07:50:07 <coppro> pikhq_: Congress still has to call the convention
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07:50:39 <coppro> kmc, pikhq_: your government is scary can you make it stop
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11:09:05 <nooga> olsner: ;<
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16:36:33 <Arc_Koen> so, ancient egyptians don't speak english
16:36:51 <Arc_Koen> but other species from other galaxies do
16:37:20 <Arc_Koen> I'm starting to think this Babel episode on earth really happened :)
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17:18:51 <Vorpal> wow, modern GPUs really don't like 16-bit colour modes...
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17:21:03 <elliott> wtf
17:21:06 <elliott> my system's rogue package just got updated
17:21:17 <Vorpal> what rogue package?
17:21:34 <elliott> the package for rogue
17:21:35 <Vorpal> oh you mean like not in the upstream distro?
17:21:37 <Vorpal> oh
17:21:45 <Vorpal> so not that meaning of rogue
17:21:51 <elliott> well, yes that meaning of rogue
17:21:51 <Vorpal> read the changelog!
17:22:03 <elliott> apparently it was just moved from the AUR into the official repositories
17:22:04 <elliott> what a letdown
17:22:07 <Vorpal> heh
17:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you use arch still?
17:22:42 <elliott> yes
17:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, since I basically switched away from arch you might be interested in picking up maintainership of c-intercal and tup-git on AUR
17:23:29 <Vorpal> I disowned those packages, I don't see myself using arch again any time soon
17:23:35 <atriq> elliott, your existence is driving me insane
17:23:42 <elliott> Vorpal: why did you switch away from arch anyway
17:23:53 <atriq> I see someone vaguely my age I don't recognize and think "That might be elliott"
17:23:55 <atriq> "Who knows"
17:24:13 <elliott> atriq: you probably want to be looking for someone who looks younger than you
17:24:21 <atriq> Okay
17:26:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I no longer have the time to spend on maintaining it. Sure it isn't as bad as Gentoo, but compared to Debian it is still a lot of work. So I went for Debian
17:26:34 <Vorpal> (Debian testing)
17:26:48 <elliott> clear solution is linux from scratch
17:26:51 <Vorpal> hah
17:27:10 <Vorpal> one thing I do miss is PKGBUILD though, they are a hell of a lot simpler to figure out than debian's package building system.
17:27:13 <elliott> i actually find arch fairly low-maintanence personally... the only time i had to spend more effort than -Syu recently was the systemd switch
17:27:19 <elliott> yes dpkg is sort of a mess
17:27:21 <Vorpal> elliott, also at the time I switched we *still* didn't have -dbg packages on arch
17:27:30 <Vorpal> have they fixed that yet?
17:27:56 <elliott> there are no separate debug packages
17:28:00 <elliott> maybe they turned debugging on in the real packages idk
17:28:18 <Vorpal> Also multilib. On arch that was a joke
17:28:34 <elliott> i've had no problems with arch's multilib repo
17:28:54 <elliott> it's complete enough for DF at least (in fact DF itself is in the multilib repo)
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17:29:39 <Vorpal> elliott, sure but try to compile anything non-trivial with -m32
17:30:11 <elliott> what is the problem? I have gcc-multilib installed and plenty of lib32-* packages
17:30:48 <Vorpal> Maybe they improved that in the last few months then
17:30:52 <FreeFull> elliott: There will always will be something with a -m32 missing or something that will try to use 64-bit stuff anyway
17:31:18 <elliott> FreeFull: that sounds like a multilib problem in general
17:31:22 <Vorpal> iirc I had problems finding a 32-bit unixodbc package the last time or something like that
17:31:23 <elliott> rather than anything to do with arch
17:31:25 <FreeFull> Just using gcc built with an x86 32-bit target is easier
17:31:39 <elliott> do you know the context
17:31:47 <elliott> anyway i don't like -m32 either but whatever
17:32:30 <fizzie> Debian's multilib transition was really quite messy, especially back when tools like Aptitude couldn't really show architectures; you ended up with a lot of weirdly duplicate-looking packages.
17:32:49 <fizzie> These days at least Aptitude seems to be reasonably good at tagging ":i386" to names.
17:37:08 <elliott> fizzie: If only they used Kitten's solution.
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17:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is that solution?
17:58:51 <elliott> Vorpal: have everything in triple-specific roots, i.e. on a 64-bit system your 32-bit stuff would be in /i686-linux-gnu/lib/..., /i686-linux-gnu/bin/..., and it'd compile it with /x86_64-linux-gnu/bin/gcc-i-forget-how-gcc-cross-compilers-are-named-but-this-one-is-for-i686
17:58:58 <elliott> Vorpal: the twist being you can also install architectures you can't even run
17:59:08 <elliott> like you could have /armel-linux-gnu/ on an x86-64 system
17:59:29 <elliott> the double twist is: you could tell the package manager to use qemu-system-armel to run armel-linux-gnu binaries, just like it knows to use linux32 to run i686-linux-gnu binaries
17:59:40 <elliott> anyway there wouldn't be any specific multilib packages
17:59:43 <kmc> called lenovo, they say there is no launch date set for the X1 Carbon i7 8GB in the US
17:59:54 <elliott> you'd just do $ pkg install --arch=i686-linux-gnu libwhatever
18:00:03 <elliott> and something like dwarffortress would only be available for i686-linux-gnu
18:00:03 <kmc> this is a lot of trouble to go through for 1MB of cache
18:00:31 <kmc> but, cache rules everything around me
18:01:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm interesting approach
18:02:19 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you deal with stuff doing #!/bin/sh and such? Symlink?
18:04:22 <fizzie> There aren't terribly many multilib-specific packages on Debian; it just installs i386 versions of regular packages. The old horrible "ia32-libs" megapackage is nowadays just a metapackage that depends on ia32-libs-multiarch, which is only available on the i386 arch and so gets installed, and which depends on the libraries that the old ia32-libs used to contain.
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18:04:27 <fizzie> Admittedly the whole thing is still slightly gnarly; but at least you can install almost anything from Debian-i386 without problems. Or so I believe.
18:04:59 <kmc> cross-architecture chroots work really well actually
18:05:04 <kmc> schroot can set them up automatically
18:05:06 <fizzie> (Instead of having to file a bug about "there's no ia32 version of libstrumpbyxor, I can't run my favourite software".)
18:05:14 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, /bin would be a symlink to /x86_64-linux-gnu/bin or such. actually you could have a "customised" /bin where it symlinks individual executables but e.g. if you tell it you want the ARM version of xchat as your /bin/xchat (for some reason??), it'd install a shell script that does "qemu-system-blah /armel-blah-blah/blah/xchat "$@""
18:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: or actually you could probably just symlink directly to the armel binary and use the linux kernel's misc executables thing to have it run them with qemu
18:05:36 <kmc> and it uses binfmt_misc
18:05:36 <elliott> but you "get the idea"
18:05:47 <kmc> so that you can run an ARM executable on x86 transparently
18:05:50 <kmc> pretty sexy
18:05:52 <fizzie> binfmt_misc is *really scary*.
18:05:57 <kmc> it's the best
18:05:57 <elliott> right, binfmt_misc is what i meant
18:06:04 <elliott> fizzie: right, Debian does it righter than most other people
18:06:07 <fizzie> I accidentally ran an ARM executable, and didn't even notice until after.
18:06:19 <Vorpal> elliott, right
18:06:20 <kmc> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools qemu-user-static; mk-sbuild --arch=armel precise; sudo schroot -c precise-armel-source
18:06:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, "libstrumpbyxor"? hah
18:06:58 <kmc> libschtroumpf
18:07:33 <elliott> Vorpal: actually I think the last time I was thinking about Kitten this ended up merging with Nix
18:07:39 <elliott> in which case you wouldn't need the triple prefixes at all
18:08:48 <Vorpal> hah
18:09:38 <elliott> basically my point is that i686 shouldn't be treated specially for x86-64
18:09:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I have been thinking about /etc a bit. While tools like etckeeper allows version control of it, there is an issue. It doesn't keep track of the point of diverging.
18:09:45 <elliott> you can just do it as part of a general "installing other architecture binaries"
18:09:48 <Vorpal> which means less automated merging
18:10:03 <Vorpal> a three way merge would be perfect for changed config files
18:10:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you should support that in Kitten in some way
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18:11:25 <elliott> Vorpal: well with nix you never actually change /etc, so maybe i could take advantage of that somehow
18:11:31 <elliott> i don't think i'll actually be writing kitten any time soon though :P
18:11:35 <Vorpal> well okay, that works too
18:11:43 <elliott> packaging is just way too much work
18:11:47 <Vorpal> agreed
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19:37:07 <kmc> PhantomJS (headless scriptable webkit browser) does some crazy things with closures
19:38:14 <kmc> your script runs in its own environment, but you can pass a closure to .evaluate() and it will use globals from the loaded web page instead
19:39:23 <Gregor> Well that's horrifying.
19:39:42 <Gregor> Does it even close?
19:40:07 <kmc> i think you can use lexical locals, yes
19:40:13 <kmc> it might even look in your environment first for globals
19:40:24 <kmc> it's definitely weird, but i'm not sure it's worse than the alternatives
19:40:27 <kmc> which would be, what, string eval?
19:40:49 <kmc> in Kernel you can play these tricks of course
19:40:56 <kmc> because environments are first-class and 'eval' takes an explicit environment
19:47:19 <kmc> no you can't use lexical locals :/
19:48:16 <kmc> but you can explicitly pass a dictionary of stuff
19:51:31 <Vorpal> hm, new humble bundle out
19:59:10 <Sgeo> In Clojure you can fake an eval that takes a concrete lexical environment
19:59:30 <Sgeo> And write a macro that obtains the lexical environment where it's expanded
20:18:14 <impomatic> What's the word that means censoring with asterisks? E.g. Brainf***?
20:18:44 <elliott> I don't think it has a special name
20:20:49 <olsner> it ought to be called something offensive
20:21:13 <atriq> ****ing censorship
20:21:55 <olsner> censorshi*
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20:23:51 <impomatic> I seem to remember there's a name, but I can only find grawlix which isn't for a specific swear word...
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20:24:55 <Sgeo> Bowlderization?
20:25:37 <Sgeo> Bowdlerization? (Although I think that's a specific form of... oh, you're saying specifically with *)
20:27:17 <olsner> oh, "Named after Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825), who first did it on The Bible and William Shakespeare's plays"
20:27:32 <impomatic> Thanks. That's the one I was thinking of! It's not as specific as I thought though...
20:27:52 <Jafet> 'Craig Cockburn reported that he was unable to use his surname (pronounced "Coburn") with Hotmail. Separately he had problems with his workplace email due to the string "cialis" within his job title of "software specialist".'
20:28:32 <FreeFull> This is the problem with profanity and dump spam filters
20:28:35 <FreeFull> dumb*
20:28:59 <olsner> yes, if everyone just stopped being so damn profane
20:29:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:38 <olsner> (which may or may not be a valid way to use the word 'profane')
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20:33:55 <fizzie> A clbuttic problem.
20:34:19 <olsner> indeed
20:37:49 <pikhq_> 1337 o'clock whee
20:38:01 <olsner> 2137 actually
20:39:24 <pikhq_> Was totally 1337 here
20:43:09 <fizzie> zzet o'clock.
20:43:47 <fizzie> There's a channel I know where people used to do a long _o/ \o_ kind of dance during the minute 13:37 quite often.
20:45:07 <olsner> hehe "Before Thomas Bowdler got a reputation one would have refered to this trope as the castration of stories."
20:45:51 <myndzi> \o_
20:45:53 <myndzi> oh wait
20:46:00 <myndzi> need moar scripts loaded
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20:47:07 <olsner> myndzi: hi
20:47:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:49:17 <myndzi> ah whoops
20:49:21 <myndzi> bug in a 10 year old script
20:49:22 <myndzi> haha
20:49:33 <myndzi> does it work yet? \o/
20:49:39 <myndzi> blah
20:50:43 <myndzi> new version of mirc appears to have broken my 177kb script file
20:50:43 <myndzi> lol
20:51:16 <elliott> oh dear
20:51:17 <myndzi>
20:51:17 <myndzi> ➶ ➴
20:51:17 <myndzi> * myndzi *
20:51:24 <myndzi> well at least that far down they work
20:51:25 <myndzi> haha
20:52:15 <myndzi> !hang rstlne ?o??oo?
20:52:24 <myndzi> oh, no file for it
20:52:30 <myndzi> new computers suck man
20:52:44 <myndzi> i haven't wanted to load my old copy of mirc because the paths have changed
20:52:48 <myndzi> and it will auto-remove like half my scripts
20:53:00 <myndzi> but i have all these random misc. files in the folder too haha
20:53:11 <myndzi> such as the scrabble wordlist that the hangman script uses ;)
20:53:38 <myndzi> at least my maze lineart properly lines up though!
20:54:18 <nooodl_> mircscript :((((
20:54:30 <myndzi> yeah yeah
20:54:48 <nooodl_> myndzi: my condolences
20:54:54 <myndzi> ahh, apparently the proper unicode support broke the regex which was using pseudo-tf
20:55:01 <myndzi> hardly, mirc is great
20:55:04 <elliott> this script sounds exciting
20:55:11 <elliott> and awful
20:55:14 <myndzi> oh yes
20:55:16 <myndzi> this is test.mrc
20:55:22 <myndzi> it's where i write random shit that i don't care about
20:55:33 <elliott> how could you not care about \o/
20:55:34 <myndzi> you'll lol at the \o/ guy event definition
20:55:37 <myndzi> on $*:text:m/(?<!\w)((?<!\\m\/.\\m\/.|\\m\/.\\m\/)\\m\/.\\m\/(?!.?\\m\/.\\m\/)|[-¯\\\/|_\<]oÂ?[-¯\\\/|_\>]|([.·oº])_Â?(?!\2)[.·oº]|ಠ‿ರೃ)(?!\w)/gS:#:{
20:55:37 <myndzi> ¯|¯⌠
20:55:37 <myndzi> |\|
20:55:50 <myndzi> things that start out simple, y'know?
20:55:56 <elliott> wow
20:56:01 <nooodl_> i,
20:56:04 <myndzi> hehe
20:56:05 <kmc> ...
20:56:05 <Bike> is that... a regex?
20:56:10 <nooodl_> that looks like uh
20:56:14 <fizzie> I vaguely recall I had a script in a mIRC.
20:56:15 <Bike> or some kind of dance?
20:56:19 <myndzi> both!
20:56:25 <fizzie> I also ran Xircon 1.0b4, it had a Tcl script engine.
20:56:26 <myndzi> i just have to figure out why it's failing
20:56:33 <elliott> the real question is why wouldn't it fail
20:56:35 <elliott> doesn't it deserve to fail
20:56:36 <fizzie> Then it never got past that beta 4.
20:56:36 <Bike> maybe you should figure out how it worked
20:56:42 <myndzi> haha
20:56:45 <myndzi> i don't want to
20:56:46 <nooodl_> mircscript is like perl, but... someone finish this simile
20:56:48 <myndzi> that's lost secrets
20:57:00 <myndzi> mircscript is unique
20:57:06 <nooodl_> i guess it's perl meets the bad parts of javascript maybe. yeah it's unique
20:57:07 <myndzi> but i know it intimately well and the client itself is excellent
20:57:20 <myndzi> of course, now i would rather write in javascript or something
20:57:32 <myndzi> i totally forgot there was a dude with a cane
20:57:33 <myndzi> holy shit
20:58:02 <nooodl_> dude. the regex. the REGEX...
20:58:17 <myndzi> oh i've written worse abominations
20:58:22 <myndzi> that one's just escaped all to hell because of the \'s
20:58:39 <nooodl_> i can't tell what's going on with the \\m's
20:58:56 <myndzi> me neither
20:58:58 <myndzi> lol
20:59:03 <myndzi> i'm pretty sure it's checking spacing
20:59:06 <myndzi> and that there's two of them
20:59:44 <myndzi> okay, the tilded A followed by a comma
21:00:12 <myndzi> that's erroneous
21:00:14 <myndzi> huh
21:00:17 <myndzi> must have been a bad paste
21:00:38 <myndzi> i wonder what it was supposed to be
21:01:18 <elliott> sounds like encoding issues
21:01:26 <myndzi> it's invalid utf-8
21:01:29 <myndzi> comma doesn't begin with 10
21:01:39 <Jafet> CP 1252 \o/
21:01:45 <myndzi> this script ran under mirc 6.35
21:01:52 <myndzi> 7.0 has more proper unicode support
21:02:01 <myndzi> before, i had to insert the individual ascii characters
21:02:01 <myndzi> :P
21:02:21 <elliott> the individual octets, you mean
21:02:23 <elliott> asci iis 7-bit
21:02:29 <myndzi> yeah, fair enough
21:02:49 <myndzi> though, only someone in here would make that distinction i bet haha
21:03:24 <fizzie> Oh, I nitpick every time someone says "high ASCII characters", and I'm not someone in here. Er...
21:03:39 <myndzi> i could nitpick that asci is nothing
21:03:42 <myndzi> and ascii is 7-bit :)
21:03:49 <elliott> technically it's ASCII not ascii
21:03:50 <elliott> so there
21:03:54 <kmc> i wish people would stop being so pedantic about character encodings, if they would just learn to speak english then it's all very easy
21:03:55 <myndzi> haha
21:03:57 <myndzi> oh boy what did i do
21:04:56 <Jafet> That joke is getting a bit clichéd.
21:05:12 <kmc> :3
21:05:22 <myndzi> regex is actually pretty simple
21:05:35 <myndzi> but i didn't know it as well as i do now then
21:05:43 <myndzi> it is checking spacing
21:05:50 <myndzi> that is, two \m/ \m/ sets can't be next to each other
21:05:51 <myndzi> `\o/´
21:05:51 <myndzi> |
21:05:51 <myndzi> /'\
21:05:51 <myndzi> (_| |_)
21:05:53 <myndzi> needs two spaces
21:06:17 <myndzi> then it's the arm variants, head variants, or the (o_º) face variants
21:06:19 <elliott> Jafet: dont
21:06:22 <elliott> you mean cliched
21:06:23 <myndzi> which i made require a silly arm thing
21:06:24 <elliott> oops i pressed enter
21:06:28 <Lumpio-> ASCII is redundant
21:06:34 <Lumpio-> UTF-8 > *
21:06:43 <kmc> utf-8 ueber alles
21:06:58 <olsner> myndzi: ASCI could be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Strategic_Computing_Initiative
21:07:39 <myndzi> i bet you guys never saw ¯\(._º)/¯
21:07:44 <myndzi> i don't even know if i got it right
21:07:47 <myndzi> that was for another channel
21:08:11 <myndzi> and appears to be part of the source of the problem :) i'm not sure what the optional thing after the mouth was
21:09:00 <myndzi> ಠ‿ರೃ
21:09:55 <myndzi> 1110000010110010101000001110001010000010101100101111111110000010110010101100001110000010110011110010010
21:10:22 <myndzi> huh, it got cut off
21:10:31 <FreeFull> What did
21:10:47 <FreeFull> ¯\(._º)/¯ ¯\(._º)/¯ ¯\(._º)/¯
21:10:47 <myndzi> the binary representation isn't divisible by 8
21:10:50 <myndzi> or else i miscounted
21:11:02 <nooodl_> > length "1110000010110010101000001110001010000010101100101111111110000010110010101100001110000010110011110010010"
21:11:04 <lambdabot> 103
21:11:18 <myndzi> nother broken script i assume
21:11:22 <myndzi> i can't rely on anything :(
21:11:27 <myndzi> is there a thing to decode utf-8?
21:11:34 <myndzi> or rather, double-encoded utf-8 haha
21:11:49 <FreeFull> What do you want as binary? ¯\(._º)/¯ ?
21:12:06 <myndzi> ಠ‿ರೃ
21:12:11 <elliott> \o/
21:12:13 <myndzi> i was going to deconstruct the utf-8 manually
21:12:13 <myndzi> lol
21:12:15 <elliott> oh no it's still broken
21:12:15 <nooodl_> probably; most utf-8-supporting languages have a function for that kind of thing
21:12:25 <myndzi> i meant on a bot
21:12:31 <myndzi> i'll work it out somehow :)
21:12:36 <FreeFull> It's c3a0c2b2c2a0c3a2e282acc2bfc3a0c2b2c2b0c3a0c2b3c692 in hex
21:12:40 <myndzi> but apparently my conversion tools are borked
21:12:57 <myndzi> oh you know what
21:12:59 <myndzi> that's the reddit face
21:13:18 <fizzie> ^ord blärp
21:13:18 <fungot> 98 108 195 164 114 112
21:13:26 <fizzie> That gives raw bytes as decimal.
21:13:28 <myndzi> ಠ_ಠ
21:13:37 <fizzie> Maybe there should be a hex version, though.
21:13:38 <myndzi> okay, almost fixed maybe!
21:13:46 <fizzie> ^show ord
21:13:46 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
21:13:49 <myndzi> i have lots of cool random scripts for that shit hehe
21:13:58 <myndzi> only here
21:13:58 <myndzi> lol
21:14:10 <FreeFull> 11000011101000001100001010110010110000101010000011000011101000101110001010000010101011001100001010111111110000111010000011000010101100101100001010110000110000111010000011000010101100111100011010010010
21:14:15 <FreeFull> Probably some 0s missing at the beginning
21:14:39 <FreeFull> > length "11000011101000001100001010110010110000101010000011000011101000101110001010000010101011001100001010111111110000111010000011000010101100101100001010110000110000111010000011000010101100111100011010010010"
21:14:41 <lambdabot> 200
21:14:48 <FreeFull> Ah, no zeros missing
21:15:00 <FreeFull> > 200 / 8
21:15:01 <myndzi> yeah, utf-8 always has high bit set
21:15:01 <lambdabot> 25.0
21:15:11 <myndzi> but i got it, it's the reddit face like i said :)
21:15:18 <myndzi> i searched google and found some broken pages that gave me context
21:15:19 <myndzi> haha
21:15:22 <FreeFull> =P
21:15:24 <fizzie> UTF-8 doesn't have the high bit set for codepoints less than 128.
21:15:32 <fizzie> PICK A NIT.
21:15:43 <myndzi> i'm going to ignore that as being ignorant of context
21:15:43 <myndzi> ;)
21:16:01 <fizzie> "a" is just as UTF-8 as "ä".
21:16:16 <myndzi> it's fun that there's a place where people can actually talk about utf-8 encodings and stuff
21:16:22 <myndzi> i mean, most people would be like ut-what?
21:16:39 <myndzi> but here not only do people know the details almost as a matter of course, they know them well enough to make pedantic corrections :P
21:16:51 <Bike> i'm sure there are plenty of places that would berate you for not using utf-ebcdic instead, too
21:16:54 <myndzi> i'll just write a new script
21:16:59 <myndzi> or something
21:17:00 <myndzi> i don't even know
21:17:04 <myndzi> maybe i can get away with a new regex
21:20:14 <myndzi> wtf pcre
21:20:18 <myndzi> did character classes just stop working?
21:21:02 <myndzi> /([\]o[/])/
21:21:03 <myndzi> succeeds
21:21:14 <myndzi> but add anything else in and it fails >:(
21:21:27 <myndzi> durr
21:21:41 <myndzi> i tried removing the escapes to test but i seem to have needed one ;)
21:21:57 <myndzi> i overescaped the rest
21:23:21 * pikhq_ prefers UCS-1 :P
21:23:40 <FreeFull> myndzi: sed -e 's/\(.\{8\}\)/\1 /g'
21:23:46 <FreeFull> Will split stuff into eights for you
21:23:59 <myndzi> i'm well past that point now :P
21:24:05 <FreeFull> =P
21:24:06 <myndzi> i need to find my rng script
21:24:09 <myndzi> lol.
21:24:14 <myndzi> yes, i implemented like 8 rngs in mirc :\
21:26:51 <myndzi> z:\f\c\mirc\download, of course!
21:27:09 <myndzi> not the unified one but it has the one i want
21:27:24 <myndzi> triumph! \o/ \o/ \o/
21:27:24 <myndzi> | | |
21:27:24 <myndzi> /'\ |\ |\
21:27:35 <elliott> :')
21:27:37 <elliott> \o/
21:27:37 <myndzi> apparently somewhere along the line i gave it a vag too
21:27:37 <myndzi> |
21:27:38 <myndzi> >\
21:27:43 <myndzi> my first test got me /^\
21:27:44 <myndzi> lol
21:28:17 <myndzi> ಠ_ಠ
21:28:18 <myndzi> ¯|¯⌠
21:28:18 <myndzi> |\|
21:28:53 <myndzi> and even ¯\(._º)/¯
21:28:53 <myndzi> |
21:28:53 <myndzi> >\
21:28:54 <myndzi> :)
21:32:25 <fizzie> How about that one thing, what was it, \m/ \m/ or such?
21:32:25 <myndzi> `\o/´
21:32:25 <myndzi> |
21:32:25 <myndzi> (_|¯´\
21:32:25 <myndzi> |_)
21:32:28 <fizzie> Yay.
21:32:51 <myndzi> totally :D
21:33:37 <atriq> ^celebrate
21:33:38 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
21:33:38 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
21:33:38 <myndzi> /´\/| |\ | /| /| /< | /´\ |\ >\
21:33:38 <myndzi> /´\ /'¯|_)
21:33:38 <myndzi> (_| |_) (_|
21:33:47 <myndzi> :party hat:
21:34:35 <atriq> myndzi, the seventh guy along looks like he's been bisected at the shoulders
21:34:43 <fizzie> Why are those last bodies all desynched.
21:34:47 <myndzi> yeah, looks like things are out of alignment
21:34:56 <myndzi> mirc's fault i'm sure
21:35:02 <myndzi> maybe a non breaking space got converted to a space
21:35:05 <fizzie> Khaled's fault.
21:35:19 <myndzi> spaces are.. not fun in mirc
21:36:46 <impomatic> I'm looking for these books if anyone has a copy to sell - Solosky "FORTH: Elements of Programming Style", Wesseling "Forth: Implementation and Application", Ting "Inside F83", Koopman "Forth Floating Point", Pelc "Book of FORTH assemblers"
21:37:14 <atriq> impomatic, I've got A Book on C, with annotations by my dad
21:37:26 <atriq> Any help?
21:37:39 <fizzie> atriq: Do the annotations say "Bogus!" and such things?
21:37:44 <nooodl_> well, they're clearly looking for books on FORTH specifically
21:37:53 <impomatic> atriq: I think I've got that one already...
21:38:19 <atriq> The annotations have mysteriously disappeared!
21:38:40 <impomatic> atriq: is your dad Kernighan? If so I'll give you a couple of quid for the book.
21:38:51 <atriq> My dad is not Kernighan
21:38:54 <atriq> Alas
21:38:58 <atriq> For then I would not be me
21:39:04 <atriq> Instead, I would be..
21:39:11 <atriq> !rot13 ngek
21:39:13 <EgoBot> atrx
21:39:29 <fizzie> ^rot13 asterix
21:39:29 <fungot> nfgrevk
21:39:33 <myndzi> ^celebrate
21:39:33 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
21:39:34 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
21:39:34 <myndzi> /< |\ |\ | |\ /< /^\ | /< /´\/<
21:39:34 <myndzi> /´\ (_|¯`¯|_)
21:39:34 <myndzi> (_| |_)
21:39:39 <myndzi> wild guess = fail
21:40:06 <fizzie> The second set of three guys have their |s under the os now, but the third manages to be still misaligny.
21:40:13 <myndzi> one too far to the right and not enough around the rocker guy
21:40:19 <fizzie> Oh, the whole thing was just moved by one.
21:40:26 <myndzi> not quite
21:40:33 * myndzi takes it to another channel
21:40:47 <myndzi> ah, there's a space at the start of the line
21:40:48 <myndzi> i wonder
21:41:03 <kmc> i love how it's always, like, version 5 of a programming language before they think to add map and filter
21:41:17 <kmc> it would be great if people designing new programming languages knew something about existing ones
21:41:39 <Bike> that sounds hard
21:54:11 <myndzi> oh geez i just typed console.log in mirc script
21:55:11 <myndzi> HAHAHA
21:55:13 <myndzi> guess what it is
21:55:17 <Vorpal> <kmc> i love how it's always, like, version 5 of a programming language before they think to add map and filter <-- for haskell too? ;P
21:55:22 <myndzi> it's utf-8 width compensation
21:55:23 <myndzi> :|
21:55:37 <myndzi> since mirc didn't use true unicode, $len(something) could be 1-4
21:55:41 <myndzi> so i had to manually fix it
21:55:50 <myndzi> but now it works correctly
21:59:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:00:00 <myndzi> okay, screw this nonsense
22:00:10 * myndzi consigns v1 to the trash
22:00:49 <elliott> RIP
22:06:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:11:06 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
22:19:53 -!- monqy has joined.
22:21:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:21:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:22:09 <kmc> dig -t txt root.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu
22:24:08 <elliott> monqy: hi
22:24:12 <monqy> hello
22:24:15 <elliott> damn
22:24:20 <elliott> kmc: root uses csh :(
22:26:46 <kmc> she sells c shells
22:29:20 <fizzie> At the C shore.
22:32:13 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:34:00 <fizzie> "Can you see-ee any clearer from a glass shore?"
22:36:42 <shachaf> root uses csh?
22:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, reddit now has a dedicated button below each and every comment to "give gold"
22:36:47 <shachaf> I'm not talking to you anymore, root.
22:37:13 <kmc> clearly they are hoping for some golden showers
22:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, was... that an Against A Dark Background reference?
22:38:06 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:39:18 <fizzie> Though when I read it, I did wonder if it was a something reference; it does not appear to be so, at least very directly.
22:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought nobody else had read Banks' non-Culture novels!
22:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> They're the best!
22:40:15 <fizzie> It's one of the "M." ones, still.
22:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I mean the non-Culture M. ones
22:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (Did I mention that I got the inspiration for Mt Hoover from that book?)
22:41:48 <fizzie> I think I didn't quite get through Feersum Endjinn though; I remember starting, but not finishing (or Finnishing).
22:42:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:42:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i like how in retrospect mt hoover was rather tiny and unimpressive
22:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> that was a pointlessly cruel thing to say!
22:43:29 <fizzie> elliott: That's what SHE said.
22:43:38 <Phantom_Hoover> it had that awesome biome discontinuity anyway, shut up
22:43:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: okay the discontinuity was cool
22:44:33 <fizzie> Also I think I did in fact finish The Algebraist.
22:44:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The Algebraist was also the best.
22:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Feersum Endjinn would be the best if it wasn't for those goddamn dyslexic chapters.
22:46:03 <fizzie> Yes, I think those might've been the reason I gave it up.
22:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not even like you can skip them, they describe some of the coolest parts of the book.
22:54:24 <Vorpal> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect.
22:54:25 <myndzi> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect. |
22:54:25 <myndzi> /|
22:54:34 <Vorpal> why did you copy paste that?
22:54:35 <myndzi> why did you copy paste that?
22:54:35 <myndzi> /|
22:54:37 <Vorpal> ...
22:54:37 <myndzi> ...
22:54:37 <myndzi> /|
22:54:41 <Vorpal> myndzi, stop that
22:54:42 <myndzi> myndzi, stop that
22:54:42 <myndzi> /|
22:54:50 <fizzie> I think it broke.
22:54:50 <myndzi> I think it broke.
22:54:50 <myndzi> /|
22:54:58 <Vorpal> can't you mute it?
22:54:58 <myndzi> can't you mute it?
22:54:58 <myndzi> /|
22:55:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
22:55:04 <Vorpal> if he is afk
22:55:05 <myndzi> if he is afk
22:55:05 <myndzi> /|
22:55:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q myndzi!*@*.
22:55:15 <elliott> hi
22:55:16 <elliott> oh no
22:55:18 <elliott> fizzie: undo
22:55:18 <fizzie> Was it +q or what?
22:55:20 <elliott> i want to try it first
22:55:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah works
22:55:29 <elliott> please!!!!
22:55:30 <elliott> it's urgent
22:55:33 <elliott> what if he fixes it
22:55:36 <fizzie> Well, if you insist; but just once.
22:55:44 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q myndzi!*@*.
22:55:45 <elliott> hello
22:55:46 <myndzi> hello
22:55:46 <myndzi> /|
22:55:47 <elliott> friend
22:55:47 <myndzi> friend
22:55:48 <myndzi> /|
22:55:48 <elliott> \o/
22:55:52 <elliott> hi
22:55:56 <elliott> i fixed it guys
22:55:57 <myndzi> i fixed it guys
22:55:57 <myndzi> /|
22:55:59 <elliott> oops
22:55:59 <Vorpal> no
22:56:02 <fizzie> Heh.
22:56:02 <myndzi> Heh.
22:56:02 <myndzi> /|
22:56:02 <Vorpal> you did not
22:56:07 <elliott> \m/ \m/
22:56:08 <myndzi> \m/ \m/
22:56:08 <myndzi> /|
22:56:12 <Vorpal> okay this is weird, it is only broken sometimes?
22:56:12 <elliott> help
22:56:13 <myndzi> okay this is weird, it is only broken sometimes?
22:56:13 <myndzi> /|
22:56:13 <myndzi> help
22:56:13 <myndzi> /|
22:56:19 <Vorpal> huh
22:56:19 <myndzi> huh
22:56:20 <myndzi> /|
22:56:22 <elliott> \o/ \o/
22:56:25 <elliott> \o/ \o/
22:56:27 <elliott> \o/ \o/
22:56:27 <elliott> qa
22:56:30 <elliott> bizarre
22:56:32 <elliott> test
22:56:32 <elliott> a
22:56:32 <elliott> q
22:56:33 <elliott> r
22:56:36 <elliott> did i fix it now
22:56:49 <fizzie> That was very confusing.
22:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah kick or mute or something, might be better to kick so he notices what was going on when kicked, rather than getting back in several hours time and having no idea why it is broken
22:57:07 <elliott> well no point now
22:57:07 <Vorpal> myndzi, so still broken?
22:57:08 <elliott> since it stopped
22:57:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
22:57:14 <Vorpal> if it starts again though
22:57:19 <elliott> thanks to my genius efforts
22:57:22 <fizzie> I'll hang around.
22:57:29 <Vorpal> I wonder what caused that (parens?)
22:57:36 <elliott> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect.
22:57:43 <Vorpal> you beat me to that
22:57:43 <elliott> looks like i fixed it permanently!!
22:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> interesting personal discovery of the day: when people say 'scone' the wrong way my accent involuntarily turns scottish
22:58:15 <shachaf> Vorpal: There's a new Humble Bundle?
22:58:28 <Vorpal> shachaf, yeah, android one again
22:58:28 <shachaf> "thx for not telling me"
22:58:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure your parents weren't experimenting with you like in that xkcd strip?
22:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> they were exceptionally precise about it if that's the case
22:59:16 <Vorpal> well yeah
23:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't believe any bug is fixed permanently unless the code for it has been changed in some way
23:00:11 <Vorpal> it could still happen
23:00:35 <Vorpal> \o/
23:00:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I think myndzi is completely disabled now even
23:00:56 <Vorpal> elliott, so that bug fix just broke it another way
23:01:11 <Vorpal> \o/
23:01:21 <Vorpal> yeah the script died completely
23:02:29 * pikhq_ just came out. Holy *crap* that was scary.
23:02:36 <Vorpal> pikhq_, came out?
23:02:44 <Vorpal> of the closest? Or outdoors? or what?
23:02:49 <Vorpal> closet*
23:02:53 <pikhq_> Of the closet(s)
23:03:10 <Vorpal> oh okay
23:03:33 <elliott> concept: rentable closets you can pay to come out of
23:04:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I don't understand why anyone who is not a sexual partner (or interested in becoming one) with the person in question would even care about the sexual orientation of other humans.
23:04:20 <pikhq_> Vorpal: In a sane world, this would be the case.
23:04:35 <pikhq_> We do not live in a sane world.
23:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, i presume you also don't care about someone's job or name or personal background
23:04:41 <kmc> i would go one further and say that in a sane world, 'sexual orientation' would not be a concept
23:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> and simply refer to them by serial number
23:04:59 <FreeFull> kmc: What would be?
23:05:04 <pikhq_> We live in a world where empiricism is an unpopular viewpoint.
23:05:16 <kmc> as opposed to the myriad other factors in attractiveness
23:05:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is a *slight* difference between sexual orientation and name.
23:05:44 <pikhq_> kmc: Well, yes...
23:06:14 <kmc> like if you're more attracted to short people or tall people, then whatever, but if you're more attracted to men or women, this is supposed to be a defining aspect of your identity
23:06:20 <elliott> <Vorpal> pikhq_, I don't understand why anyone who is not a sexual partner (or interested in becoming one) with the person in question would even care about the sexual orientation of other humans.
23:06:31 <kmc> as someone who is attracted to both short and tall men and women, i don't really get this
23:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> this conversation is dumb can we have a different one
23:06:33 <elliott> in a world where it is implicitly assumed you are heterosexual unless stated otherwise of course it's relevant
23:06:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I probably don't care about their job or personal background unless it is somehow relevant to me though.
23:07:01 <pikhq_> kmc: Likewise.
23:07:03 <kmc> except that, if people are persecuting you for who you are attracted to, they will force a label on you, and you can use that label to fight back as well
23:07:09 <kmc> so it makes sense in that context
23:07:20 <elliott> this is like the people who say affirmative action is "reverse racism" because in a perfect world there would be no need to even consider such things
23:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> what elliott said
23:07:48 <pikhq_> Men are attractive. Women are also attractive. Easy.
23:08:07 <FreeFull> I think many men don't find men attractive
23:08:14 <kmc> sometimes i see someone on the street and decide that they're attractive before i decide whether they look like a dude or a lady
23:08:21 <kmc> (this works better from behind)
23:08:25 <pikhq_> Yeah, well, I'm not one of those men.
23:08:40 <FreeFull> "< kmc> (this works better from behind)
23:08:45 <kmc> "that's what she said"
23:08:46 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:08:55 <Gregor> Ba-dum
23:11:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, my point here was that there is no reason why 1) there would be anything special about any sexual orientation that would require coming out of the closest 2) sexual orientation is unimportant to other people unless they are your sexual partners or are interested in such a relationship. It is not a defining characteristic of any person.
23:11:23 <kmc> <kmc> except that, if people are persecuting you for who you are attracted to, they will force a label on you, and you can use that label to fight back as well
23:11:29 <kmc> that is why it's such a big deal
23:11:53 <Vorpal> As long as everyone involved are consenting adults why would anyone outside care about it.
23:11:56 <Phantom_Hoover> yes Vorpal you're ever so forward-thinking now please let the rest of us talk like adults
23:12:18 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, in a fairy-tale land that's roughly how it'd work.
23:12:18 <kmc> dongs
23:12:26 <Gregor> I agree with kmc.
23:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> coques
23:12:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, yeah that is not how it works, but that is how it *ought* to work
23:12:39 <pikhq_> I second kmc.
23:12:40 <pikhq_> dongs
23:12:42 <kmc> cock au vin
23:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> baulle
23:12:50 <Vorpal> kmc, and that is an interesting point about fighting back
23:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> *baulles
23:12:58 <kmc> dickachu
23:13:06 <pikhq_> pikachin
23:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: this is the kind of conversation that might be worth having in 1000 years when gender, prejudices about it, prejudices about sexual orientation, blah blah blah are not deeply ingrained in society
23:13:29 <elliott> as of now they are so this stuff is relevant
23:13:39 <kmc> i wonder if elliott thinks my view is as wrong as Vorpal's
23:13:42 <kmc> they don't seem very different
23:13:56 <kmc> i think it is worth talking about now, while recognizing that it doesn't match the society we live in
23:14:02 <kmc> it does rather match the subculture of people i know personally
23:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's worth talking about in a more nuanced way than Vorpal's "OH MY GOD SOCIETY ISN'T PERFECT WHAT IS WITH THAT"
23:14:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess the issue then is why I do not feel those prejudices. I don't understand racism. I heard it explained with the fear of the unknown and what not, yet I don't see what there is to fear in a different skin colour.
23:14:53 <Vorpal> and so on
23:15:26 <elliott> kmc: maybe you are interpreting what I said differently to how I intended it
23:15:50 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:15:54 <elliott> i'm certainly not saying discussions about this topic in general are a bad thing to have; i just mean that saying "well why does it even have to be a thing" is counterproductive
23:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, again, you simply see this entire topic as a vehicle to front your own progressiveness
23:16:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:16:43 <elliott> Vorpal: to be frank I find it vastly more likely you do have at least some of those prejudices but they are just ingrained enough that you do not notice them... which is not a statement about you; that applies to everyone on the planet
23:16:54 <elliott> since a whole lot of everything is ingrained stuff you don't notice
23:17:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm progressive, I just try to be sensible. I do not understand homophobia, racism and so on. I guess I just do not at all experience the feeling which give rise to these kind of views?
23:17:11 <kmc> even if you aren't actively racist it is a lot easier to act like racism is no big deal if you have racial privilege
23:17:15 <elliott> (and hence: this is why sexual orientation being a thing that is actually brought up is important -- because it counteracts this)
23:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that might be the case
23:17:31 <elliott> anyway I don't think I actually agree with kmc
23:17:36 <elliott> er
23:17:37 <elliott> disagree
23:17:40 <elliott> anyway I don't think I actually disagree with kmc
23:17:44 <kmc> let's disagree to agree
23:17:54 <elliott> not that I think Vorpal is "wrong" per se either
23:18:02 <elliott> anyway let's talk about something else
23:18:09 <elliott> #esoteric is meant to be dumb
23:18:10 <oonbotti> Nothing here
23:18:20 <elliott> thank you oonbotti, that was sufficientyl dumb
23:18:23 <elliott> sufeicjeintly
23:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> any sufficiently dumb comment is indistinguishable from idiot
23:20:13 <Gregor> Where'd my +v go anyway.
23:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> *idiocy
23:20:22 <Gregor> I should've been given a +v access mode instead of just a one-time +v.
23:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I work daily with people from all over the world (I have colleagues from Canada, Chile and Australia) and have no issues with that. I have friends who are from countries that racism in Sweden has traditionally been targeted at (Bosnia for example).
23:20:52 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:21:40 <elliott> ok I have to ask
23:21:50 <elliott> are these Canadians and Australians white
23:21:51 <elliott> because
23:22:07 <tswett> Hey guys, have a stupid character set: http://wiki.zbasu.net/idios
23:22:33 <Bike> «0x20: "escape"; has no defined meaning» nice.
23:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the Canadian guy is, the Australian one is not, though not a native either. Think he have parents from somewhere in India or something, don't remember the detail.
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> the chileans wouldn't be
23:23:10 <pikhq_> tswett: Why, it can't even represent Japanese!
23:23:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:23:23 <tswett> pikhq_: I thought of putting in katakana just for kicks.
23:23:25 <pikhq_> I insist you add the glyphs necessary to represent pikhq romanized Japanese.
23:23:25 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway I am not accusing you of being a gigantic racist or anything :P
23:23:34 <tswett> Which glyphs would those be?
23:23:41 <elliott> but kmc is right -- prejudice is a lot harder to see if it doesn't affect you
23:23:45 <Vorpal> elliott, the Chilean guy, I'm not sure, not a native indian but not traditionally white either.
23:23:54 <Vorpal> elliott, true
23:24:02 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:24:10 <Vorpal> I guess I just grew up learning that these sort of things were non-issues.
23:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> in sweden
23:24:22 <pikhq_> Which are: à ì ù è ò â î û ê ô ȳ ā ī ū ē ō (more glyphs may be necessary for other Japonic languages, but as far as I know that's what's necessary for any form of Japanese proper)
23:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> where there are significant racial tensions
23:24:36 <elliott> well Sweden is probably better than average at this stuff
23:24:40 <elliott> but also what Phantom_Hoover said
23:24:55 <tswett> What are grave accents, circumflexes, and ȳ for?
23:25:12 <Bike> hepburn romanization, obviously
23:25:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? There is certainly racism in Sweden. There is a racist party in the parliament even currently. BNP style, but maybe not quite as bad.
23:25:23 <pikhq_> Grave is the dakuten, circumflex is the handakuten, the bar is for small glyphs.
23:25:29 <Bike> have it support lots of languages, but only with outmoded romanization styles
23:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so how could you pretend it's a non-issue?
23:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It very clearly is.
23:25:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so I guess you could blame/thank my parents rather than the social climate at large.
23:25:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't say it isn't an issue. I just said I don't understand *why* it is considered an issue by some.
23:26:06 <pikhq_> This is for an *encoding of kana*, not really a good romanization scheme. :)
23:26:13 <elliott> apparently Sweden has no official ethnicity statistics
23:26:23 <tswett> So are "ba" and "pa" written as "hà" and "hâ"?
23:26:33 <pikhq_> Yes.
23:26:33 <Bike> pikhq_: only seal script, then
23:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> "we're all swedes here"
23:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "swedes living in perfect harmony"
23:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "i bet all you inferior countries wish you could be like your nordic supermen"
23:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> wait!
23:26:55 <pikhq_> tswett: One other thing: the sokuon (っ) is written '
23:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, how would they collect that info anyway?
23:26:59 -!- myndzi has joined.
23:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i just remembered i hate sweden!
23:27:04 <myndzi> i disabled it to write a better one
23:27:11 <elliott> Vorpal: well you all get a barcode at birth in sweden right
23:27:11 <tswett> pikhq_: ah, so I'll have to add ' to the character set, too.
23:27:12 <pikhq_> tswett: So, Hepburn "roppyaku" is pikhq "ro'hîȳaku"
23:27:13 <myndzi> huh, i think my server just cut out
23:27:22 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> "i bet all you inferior countries wish you could be like your nordic supermen" <-- that sounds like it would be racism towards the rest of the world :P
23:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it concerns me that you are unfamiliar with censuses
23:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, we have social security numbers, no bar code though
23:27:44 <pikhq_> One also encodes long vowels as you would in kana.
23:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> also that's because swedes are too dumb to work out that they're inferior
23:27:52 <Vorpal> I'm sure you could encode the SSN as a bar code if you wanted though
23:27:55 <pikhq_> So, "Tōkyō" is "Toukiȳou"
23:27:57 <elliott> Vorpal: are you sure you just haven't found your barcode yet???
23:28:12 <pikhq_> And "Ōkii" is "Ookii"
23:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
23:28:22 <pikhq_> ... Why'd I capitalize that?
23:28:25 <pikhq_> Anywho
23:28:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, we don't do censuses in Sweden since a great deal of years. We simply trust the registry being kept up to date as people are born and die.
23:28:51 <tswett> ōkii no "o"
23:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> sweden :')
23:29:09 <pikhq_> tswett: There are, FWIW, some advantages to this scheme.
23:29:18 <elliott> you miss out on the experience of censuses with big yelling warnings saying how mandatory they are
23:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "i mean it's not like anyone could get into the country without us knowing"
23:29:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it was in the context of that which my comment should be taken
23:29:25 <pikhq_> tswett: "ヴ" cannot be represented in Hepburn, but it's just "ù" in pikhq
23:29:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, :P
23:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> "we're not that dumb!"
23:29:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well who would flee to sweden
23:29:44 <elliott> of all places
23:29:47 <elliott> just saying
23:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> when norway and finland are so close?
23:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover> and so very not sweden
23:30:05 <elliott> exactly
23:30:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, even people who are here illegally have right to get emergency health care and so on btw
23:30:14 <tswett> Wait, I don't know how to attach "ōkii" to a noun.
23:30:35 <fizzie> I remember there was an occasion where Linus was giving a lecture, and a person from the audience started a long "question"/rant about the mark-of-the-beast microchips that are being implanted into people these days.
23:30:43 <pikhq_> It's an -i adjective, so one just does it before the noun.
23:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it wasn't stallman by any chance, was it
23:30:53 <pikhq_> i.e. "big island" is "ōkii shima"
23:30:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of which, US politics make me scratch my head quite often.
23:31:07 <Vorpal> sometimes it just appears so backwards
23:31:09 <elliott> US politics make the US scratch their heads also
23:31:12 * tswett nods.
23:31:15 <pikhq_> Though for some reason I want to prefer "ōkina shima"
23:31:17 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah
23:31:38 <pikhq_> (that adjective is a weird case in that there's a -na version of it that is mostly interchangeable)
23:31:45 <tswett> pikhq_: do you know a significant amount of Japanese?
23:31:46 <elliott> guys can we somehow tie in this discussion with the pikhq_-tswett one
23:31:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No; this was in Finland, in Finnish, and the person was female. The video's in YouTube, but, again, Finnish.
23:31:51 <elliott> so i can stop having to skip every other line
23:31:55 <pikhq_> tswett: Rather a lot.
23:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, stallman's finnish daughter?
23:32:02 * tswett nods.
23:32:03 <Bike> elliott: japan has race problems, how about that
23:32:10 <elliott> Bike: perfect. job done.
23:32:17 -!- kallisti has changed nick to KALLISTI.
23:32:20 <pikhq_> Yeah, Japan actually does have a number of racial problems.
23:32:22 <Bike> or, the racism inherent in hepburn's romanizing stuffs
23:32:34 <Bike> or perhaps romanization in general!
23:32:47 <pikhq_> Go ask the Ainu how they're doing OH WAIT THEY'RE BASICALLY GONE.
23:33:07 <tswett> Okay, time to write a line editor in MIPS assembly.
23:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, aren't "japanese only" signs fairly common in some places
23:33:21 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
23:33:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, btw speaking of census, wouldn't it be rather easy to hide away from that anyway?
23:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, but that would be breaking the law!
23:34:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:34:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, :P
23:34:26 <Vorpal> it isn't like people who are in the country illegally aren't breaking the law already
23:34:38 <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts...
23:34:43 <Vorpal> how often do UK do censuses?
23:35:29 <Vorpal> pikhq_, who are "Ainu"?
23:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, aboriginal japanese
23:35:41 <Bike> see, there you go.
23:35:42 <Vorpal> ah
23:35:55 <Bike> what about the other indigenous groups? are they annihilated yet
23:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> what, you mean in general?
23:36:44 <Bike> in japan
23:36:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The Ainu are an aboriginal people from northern Japan and very far eastern Russia...
23:36:55 <Vorpal> right
23:36:58 <Bike> or, to go back to the language thing, ryukyuan language suppression?
23:37:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The Soviets booted them all out to Japan, and then WWII Japan was dicks.
23:37:19 <pikhq_> And now there's about 100 Ainu speakers.
23:37:31 <Bike> oh geez, I didn't think it was that bad :(
23:37:35 <Vorpal> ah
23:37:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, Ryūkyūan languages got fucked with badly, too. But nowhere near as bad.
23:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Bike, i hear you're new
23:38:13 <Phantom_Hoover> have you done the right of passage
23:38:15 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts... <-- white Japanse people? What are we talking about here exactly?
23:38:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: White person who is a citizen of Japan.
23:38:33 <pikhq_> They exist.
23:38:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the right of passage is a natural right of all citizens!
23:38:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, like Europeans that moved there?
23:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> ok
23:38:48 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Basically.
23:38:52 <Bike> or, what do you mean, like, do I have to write a brainfuck variant
23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> but the condition for citizenship is writing an eodermdrome interpreter
23:38:58 <Vorpal> pikhq_, right okay.
23:39:00 <Bike> shit
23:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> making a brainfuck derivative automatically disqualifies you
23:39:12 <Bike> haha.
23:39:27 <elliott> Vorpal: white people living in japan can also have children and stuff
23:39:32 <elliott> or so I hear......................
23:39:43 <Bike> but I have this great idea, it's like brainfuck plus befunge and intercal!
23:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. I was wondering if he was referring to yet another group of people that were native to the area and white or something
23:39:57 <elliott> Bike: amazing, you should put it on the wiki pronto
23:40:02 <elliott> make sure to make the spec horribly ambiguous
23:40:09 <pikhq_> elliott: Japan is jus sanguinis, though.
23:40:17 <Bike> spec? I think you mean download link
23:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, wait, are you implying they're obnoxious for fighting racial prejudice or am i misreading
23:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts..
23:40:30 <elliott> pikhq_: right
23:40:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so my question obviously was asking if he meant western (and descendants of western) persons or something else.
23:40:49 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No, just that Debito in particular tries to be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. :)
23:41:11 <fizzie> FORTRAN.
23:41:14 <Bike> oh, that reminds me though, the other month a guy I know said that in school he learned that ainu were white
23:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, you have just said something that makes roughly no sense
23:41:16 <KALLISTI> YES
23:41:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I barely know anything about it but isn't the anti-foreigner prejudice in Japan not really anti-white racism at all?
23:41:24 <elliott> more like a generalised xenophobia or whatever
23:41:32 <Bike> apparently he learned about race from 19th-century quality textbooks, three races and all
23:41:32 <elliott> this is just the impression I've got though, I don't actually know anything :P
23:41:38 <pikhq_> elliott: It's generalized xenophobia.
23:41:44 <pikhq_> elliott: White people have it easier, in a way.
23:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> eh, we're happy enough to call hatred of muslims racism, i think the term is generalised enough to support that usage
23:42:40 <KALLISTI> this conversation reminds me of a "wonderful" debate I was in recently with a denizen of IRC
23:42:55 <KALLISTI> claiming that basically every other language should romanize their alphabets
23:42:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well islamophobia is at least usually linked to actual racism but fair enough
23:43:04 -!- augur has joined.
23:43:08 <elliott> KALLISTI: that way we wouldn't have to implement unicode!!
23:43:17 <kmc> sometimes it is linked to the awful attitudes towards human rights in certain muslim communities
23:43:23 <KALLISTI> elliott: yeah the conversation actually came up because I claimed that UTF-8 for URLs would make way more sense
23:43:32 <elliott> KALLISTI: see IRI
23:44:42 <Vorpal> the IDN stuff makes no bloody sense. Until you realise that everything these days is basically built to be backward compatible with imperfect solutions made 30-20 years ago
23:45:05 <kmc> yes that is how everything has worked forever
23:45:09 <Vorpal> indeed
23:45:24 <Vorpal> it results in so many problems though
23:46:12 <kmc> speaking of
23:46:14 <kmc> i hate unix
23:46:25 <kmc> just because i run "foo" and it dies cleanly when i hit ^C
23:46:30 <Vorpal> oh yeah, it has some good ideas but a LOT of flaws
23:46:31 <Bike> have you read the handbook
23:46:32 <kmc> does not mean that killall -INT foo will make it die cleanly
23:46:54 <kmc> i have a bunch of processes that launch other processes and it works fine when you run it manually, but the cleanup is a disaster otherwise
23:47:01 <Vorpal> kmc, which signal does ^C send then? I thought it was INT?
23:47:09 <kmc> it sends it to the whole process group though
23:47:21 <Vorpal> I guess you would have to do that then?
23:47:37 <kmc> yeah, but setting it up yourself is a pain
23:47:46 <Vorpal> true
23:47:54 <fizzie> killall -g ?
23:47:55 <Vorpal> which piece of software is this? So I can avoid it
23:47:55 <kmc> basically it's easy to say "kill everything running in this terminal" but hard to say "kill everything launched from this exec call"
23:48:03 <kmc> linux
23:48:13 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant which software on linux
23:48:19 <kmc> some software i wrote
23:48:22 <Vorpal> ah
23:48:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: so, if the state graph is abc and the match subgraph of a command is b, the interpreter could run that command, in which case the one node would be "open"?
23:48:27 <kmc> but
23:48:28 <elliott> kmc: you should use @ instead
23:48:31 <kmc> if you understood the above
23:48:38 <kmc> you would understand that it is not my fault particularly
23:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, I'll have to check.
23:48:57 <Vorpal> kmc, true, I would just use a supervisor process, like systemd or daemontools or such
23:49:13 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Doesn't even really solve The Problem.
23:49:13 <kmc> yeah i'm not asking for advice
23:49:24 <kmc> since i have not described my problem in detail anyway
23:49:25 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
23:49:31 <kmc> i'm just complaining
23:49:36 <elliott> well my advice is
23:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, you need to know both match and substitution subgraphs to determine if a node is open.
23:49:38 <elliott> use @
23:49:39 <elliott> just saying
23:49:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm true
23:49:54 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: oh, yes, duh. silly me.
23:50:06 <kmc> any complaint gets responses of "that's easy, you should just use foo and bar"
23:50:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: I thought it said that it used the same letter in the state graph and the match subgraph, oops.
23:50:11 <kmc> which is annoying
23:50:18 <kmc> but i'm in an annoyed mood generally
23:50:20 <Vorpal> what... there is "Angry Birds Star Wars" now?
23:50:22 <Vorpal> oh god
23:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, nah, the tricky part is that the state graph is completely unlabelled.
23:50:54 <Jafet> kmc: that's easy, you should just use screen.
23:50:58 <fizzie> There was Angry Birds Space; it sounds a sensible step.
23:51:10 <Arc_Koen> hello guys
23:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> So you have to use a general subgraph matcher to work out what can actually be executed.
23:51:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, riight....
23:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: is this because of disney
23:51:34 <Vorpal> going to download it just to see how bad it is...
23:51:42 <Vorpal> I'm morbidly curious
23:51:44 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: right. but clearly having a single interpreter step be an np complete problem is what makes it worthwhile
23:51:52 <Vorpal> can't be any worse than the usual Angry Birds I guess
23:51:54 <elliott> wait let me guess
23:51:59 <elliott> i guess that it is identical to an angry birds game
23:52:03 <elliott> but looks vaguely star-warsy
23:52:08 <kmc> "i'm not asking for advice, but thank you for inferring my problem based on the assumption that i am an idiot and then solving it for me"
23:52:09 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: you do realize if you do that they win their gamble
23:52:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, actually when i looked this up i discovered that for fixed match subgraphs the algorithm is O(n^2) or something else pleasantly small
23:52:27 <elliott> kmc: well you are an idiot
23:52:32 <elliott> kmc: because you are not using @
23:52:34 <kmc> well ok but
23:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> the actual algorithm was paywalled tho--
23:52:50 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, apart from that I do not buy any micro transactions and I have an adblocker
23:52:57 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, so they make zero money from me
23:52:57 <Jafet> Where do I get the time machine to get @
23:53:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ullmann (1976) describes a recursive backtracking procedure for solving the subgraph isomorphism problem. Although its running time is, in general, exponential, it takes polynomial time for any fixed choice of H (with a polynomial that depends on the choice of H)."
23:53:38 <Bike> seems convenient enough
23:53:58 <elliott> Bike: has anyone told you about the eodeoredoemroemdomeormodrmodrme curse yet
23:54:15 <fizzie> There's an amazing number of Angry Birds merchandize around. Today at the grocery store there were Angry Birds skin care products from Lumene.
23:54:17 <Bike> nope
23:54:21 <Bike> am I going to go insane or something
23:54:26 <fizzie> There's also the Angry Birds coffees.
23:54:33 <Bike> isn't there an angry birds theme park?
23:54:34 -!- augur has joined.
23:54:36 <FreeFull> fizzie: Do they make your skin yellow, blue and red
23:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's just that all other attempts to implement it have failed
23:54:53 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: do you mean like the place or the drink?
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> except one by oklopol which is a) lost in the mists of time and b) hideously slow
23:54:55 <elliott> Bike: well so far only one person claims to have successfully implemented it and their interpreter has been lost and was never publicly released
23:54:58 <Bike> haha, really?
23:54:58 <elliott> and also they were already cursed
23:55:02 <fizzie> FreeFull: I didn't stop to read the product descriptions.
23:55:08 <Bike> well shit, how can I turn this down now
23:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i suspect that this is mainly because of the subgraph isomorphism
23:55:39 <FreeFull> > concat $ repeat "aeiou"
23:55:39 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The drink; there's two Angry Birds -themed brands of it. I forget the exact names.
23:55:40 <lambdabot> "aeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeio...
23:55:45 <Bike> i'm not sure how exactly this would ever be not hideously slow
23:55:49 <Arc_Koen> weeeeeell
23:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit, my university apparently don't have general access to the acm
23:55:56 <Arc_Koen> it can't be worse than british coffee, can it?
23:56:02 <FreeFull> It can
23:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, http://jgaa.info/accepted/99/Eppstein99.3.3.pdf is the cited paper for the polynomial thing
23:56:11 <Bike> cool
23:56:13 <fizzie> One of them was the Early Bird coffee.
23:56:24 <Bike> i'm trying to grab the ullman paper from my amazing piracy network
23:56:25 <fizzie> And the other was some kind of explosive espresso.
23:56:26 <Arc_Koen> sounds like a good name for a coffee
23:56:41 <Arc_Koen> an esprossive?
23:56:47 <elliott> Bike: oklopol's just did the naive thing iirc
23:56:58 <elliott> i.e. the one involving 0 research papers
23:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> however, it doesn't actually give ullman's algorithm and, as i mentioned, his paper is paywalled
23:57:10 <elliott> didn't i once find the paper
23:57:12 <elliott> i swear i did
23:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> istr finding a different paper stating the algorithm
23:57:54 <fizzie> Rovio has publicly stated that "going forward" they will only ever consider game ideas that can be readily turned to merchandizing.
23:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://oldwww.prip.tuwien.ac.at/teaching/ss/strupr/vogl.pdf
23:58:03 <Phantom_Hoover> helpful powerpoint!
23:58:12 <Bike> oh, this is the same designer who did underload, and I already implemented that, so obviously this will be just as simple
23:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> clearly
23:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> istr we once tried interpreting underload in eodermdrome
23:58:43 <Bike> haha amazing
23:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> we failed almost immediately
23:59:04 <elliott> Bike: um I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the same designer also did http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
23:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> duplication in eodermdrome is hard
23:59:30 <fizzie> Finnair had an Angry Birds theme flight to Japan, though they didn't (afaik) shoot the plane out of a giant slingshot.
23:59:38 <Bike> elliott: well that doesn't seem hard either, by virtue of my knowing nothing about it, see?
23:59:45 <fizzie> Nor did it break into three smaller planes mid-flight.
23:59:48 <elliott> Bike: it involves time travel
23:59:51 <elliott> ais523: tell Bike about Feather!
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