←2012-11-17 2012-11-18 2012-11-19→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:26:48 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:26:49 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=344, Welsh=1, Georgian=1, Manx=1, norwegian=8
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00:27:32 <atriq> Did you vote for Polish 344 times, shachaf?
00:27:43 <shachaf> atriq: Huh?
00:27:46 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:27:47 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=344, Welsh=1, Georgian=1, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:27:50 <oerjan> @vote best-spoken-language georgian
00:27:50 <lambdabot> "georgian" is not currently a candidate in this poll
00:27:56 <oerjan> @vote best-spoken-language Georgian
00:27:56 <lambdabot> voted on "Georgian"
00:28:10 <olsner> you should vote oerian
00:28:25 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:28:26 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:28:36 <oerjan> but that language has never been spoken!
00:28:54 <atriq> @poll-results best-spoken-language
00:28:54 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:29:01 <Bike> so why is it pole
00:29:55 <oerjan> there is no pole
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00:32:31 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:31 <lambdabot> "magyar" is not currently a candidate in this poll
00:32:38 <kmc> fuck you
00:32:43 <shachaf> @choice-add best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:43 <lambdabot> New candidate "magyar", added to poll "best-spoken-language".
00:32:47 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:47 <lambdabot> voted on "magyar"
00:32:49 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:49 <lambdabot> voted on "magyar"
00:32:50 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:51 <lambdabot> voted on "magyar"
00:32:54 <kmc> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:32:56 <kmc> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:32:56 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): magyar=3, Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:33:10 <shachaf> Though we typically call it Hungarian in English.
00:33:16 <shachaf> Or do we?
00:33:18 <kmc> maybe *YOU* typically call it Hungarian
00:33:18 <shachaf> I thought we did.
00:33:25 <kmc> okay so do i
00:33:26 <kmc> still
00:33:36 <shachaf> @choice-add president kmc
00:33:37 <lambdabot> New candidate "kmc", added to poll "president".
00:34:53 <oerjan> @choice-add president cthulhu
00:34:53 <lambdabot> New candidate "cthulhu", added to poll "president".
00:36:09 <olsner> @vote president cthulhu
00:36:09 <lambdabot> voted on "cthulhu"
00:36:24 <olsner> @poll-results president
00:36:25 <lambdabot> Poll results for president (Open): cthulhu=1, kmc=0, copumpkin=4
00:36:29 <kmc> why settle for the *lesser* of two evils?
00:36:46 <oerjan> oh right
00:36:55 <oerjan> @vote president kmc
00:36:56 <lambdabot> voted on "kmc"
00:37:06 <oerjan> can't do _that_...
00:37:10 <kmc> mwahahahaha
00:37:33 <copumpkin> :O
00:37:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: That's what you get for moving to CT
00:38:01 <copumpkin> I'm not even eligible to be president
00:38:07 <shachaf> No one likes Connecticut Yankees.
00:38:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm not either. :-(
00:38:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you know dne :: (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m Void) -> m Void) -> a?
00:38:31 <copumpkin> aww poor shachaf
00:38:37 <olsner> shachaf: not even president of finland?
00:38:58 <shachaf> olsner: Not even that. :-(
00:39:07 <shachaf> "The President must be a native-born Finnish citizen."
00:40:23 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know ffi ?
00:41:00 <olsner> why this obsession with presidents being native born?
00:41:16 <shachaf> olsner: I don't know, man! It's totally unfair.
00:41:38 <oerjan> what's dne anyway
00:41:43 <kmc> heh
00:41:53 <olsner> if every finn votes a non-finn for president, who actually gets elected?
00:42:46 <shachaf> An Estonian.
00:43:01 <oerjan> @hoogle dne
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNew :: Storable a => Pool -> a -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNewArray :: Storable a => Pool -> [a] -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNewArray0 :: Storable a => Pool -> a -> [a] -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:12 <olsner> but which estonian? (are there more han one?)
00:43:20 <oerjan> ok so...
00:43:34 <oerjan> :t runCont
00:43:35 <lambdabot> Cont r a -> (a -> r) -> r
00:44:28 <shachaf> oerjan: dastardly notation elimination
00:46:53 <oerjan> @djinn dne :: ((a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:46:53 <lambdabot> Cannot parse command
00:47:02 <oerjan> um
00:47:08 <shachaf> No name.
00:47:10 <oerjan> @djinn dne :: (a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:10 <lambdabot> Cannot parse command
00:47:16 <shachaf> Just a type.
00:47:21 <oerjan> @djinn (a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:22 <lambdabot> Cannot parse command
00:47:27 <oerjan> oops
00:47:33 <oerjan> @djinn ((a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:33 <lambdabot> f a = a (\ b _ -> b) void
00:47:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Why are you using Cont?
00:47:55 <shachaf> You don't need Cont.
00:47:56 <shachaf> @quote Oleg
00:47:57 <lambdabot> Oleg says: We show how to program with the law of excluded middle. We specifically avoid call/cc, which is overrated.
00:48:12 <shachaf> @djinn dne :: ((a -> Either a Void) -> Either a Void) -> a
00:48:13 <lambdabot> Cannot parse command
00:48:18 * shachaf sighs.
00:48:19 <shachaf> @djinn ((a -> Either a Void) -> Either a Void) -> a
00:48:19 <lambdabot> f a =
00:48:20 <lambdabot> case a (\ b ->
00:48:20 <lambdabot> case a (\ _ -> Left b) of
00:48:20 <lambdabot> Left c -> Left c
00:48:20 <lambdabot> Right d -> void d) of
00:48:21 <lambdabot> Left e -> e
00:48:23 <lambdabot> Right f -> void f
00:48:32 <oerjan> um it was the obvious way to get a monad with an arbitrary result...
00:48:44 <shachaf> call/cc is overrated, man
00:49:03 <zzo38> You can use Cont without callCC, though, depend what you need that type for.
00:49:10 <shachaf> True.
00:49:14 <shachaf> You can use Cont for anything.
00:51:08 <oerjan> i guess Either is simpler
00:52:08 <zzo38> FamicomHDL uses Cont without callCC. I also mentioned in esolang wiki some kind of fake I/O monad involving Cont.
00:52:14 <shachaf> Since you only need to use the exception once.
00:53:18 <zzo38> But you can use law of excluded middle instead of callCC too if you like; in both cases it makes classical logic from intuitionistic logic.
00:53:36 <oerjan> i think that @djinn is a little overcomplicated?
00:54:15 <shachaf> Yes.
00:54:19 <shachaf> Just pass it Left.
00:54:19 <oerjan> :t let f a = case a Left of Left e -> e; Right f -> undefined in f
00:54:21 <lambdabot> ((a -> Either a b) -> Either t t1) -> t
00:54:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: Get 'im!
00:54:49 <zzo38> Could you use (>>=)?
00:55:26 <zzo38> For what you have there, you could make (either Left undefined) which might also do?
00:56:33 <shachaf> You mean either id undefined?
00:56:41 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes.
00:56:42 <shachaf> It should actually be either id void
00:57:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that too. You are correct. It should be: either id void
00:57:15 <oerjan> :t void
00:57:16 <lambdabot> Functor f => f a -> f ()
00:57:20 <shachaf> Not that void!
00:57:24 <shachaf> absurd :: Void -> a
00:57:34 <zzo38> But something like case ... of { Left c -> Left c; Right d -> void d; } seem would be like >>= void
00:57:40 <shachaf> either id void . ($ Left)
00:57:53 <shachaf> Hmm, good point.
00:58:56 <shachaf> Hmm, no.
00:59:01 <shachaf> The (>>=) makes it monomorphic.
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02:01:46 <Sgeo> <someone in #jesus> Sgeo: I have read that in the startings of war, hitler begged churchill for peace like 12 times, but churcill didnt want to accept it.
02:03:01 <FreeFull> Fuck you hitler and your jew-killing peace
02:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> is he being like "hitler wasn't such a bad guy"
02:03:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Why do you punish yourself?
02:04:11 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, he's being more "both sides were bad", I think.
02:04:29 <pikhq_> Which is a silly argument.
02:04:47 <Sgeo> That argument didn't even address my statement
02:04:58 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> rebels in general, or these particular rebels?
02:04:58 <Sgeo> * amelius has quit (Quit: Leaving)
02:04:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Because it seems clear that at least some of the time, rebellion is not a bad thing.
02:04:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> If there was a rebellion against Nazi Germany, that would have been good. The American Revolution is not typically considered to have been morally bad, as far as I'm aware.
02:05:29 <Jafet> History was kind to Winston, and dink to Addi.
02:06:26 <pikhq_> Sgeo: So, wait, was this guy advocating absolute subservience to whatever government exists at the time?
02:07:26 <Sgeo> Not entirely sure how absolute, exactly, but something along those lines. He's against the Syrrian rebels, and I wasn't sure if those particular rebels or rebels in general.
02:09:32 <pikhq_> That's actually kinda hilarious. Wonder what he thinks of states that ban Christianity.
02:09:56 <Sgeo> The person in question is l.
02:09:57 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/tfgrdt2v3rinnudt3yuipa
02:10:06 <Sgeo> (Note that I elided the actual nicks)
02:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that
02:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> sounds very clearly like he's against "rebels are good all the time"
02:11:45 <Sgeo> I asked, hold on let me paste that
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02:12:48 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/q3zrkexir8wus8qmuh5dw
02:13:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess it could be more dodging than asserting that rebels are bad all the time.
02:13:23 <Sgeo> It's s's statement that seems slightly generalized anti-rebel.
02:16:14 <Sgeo> <l> the result of all this: ww1 gave us "Leage of nations" ww2 gave us "United Nations" and ww3 will give us the Luciferian NWO
02:16:14 <Sgeo> <l> thats "the Plan" basicly
02:17:17 <kmc> yeah i think nazis are the archtypal example that peace isn't always the better option
02:18:25 <kmc> also he *did* get a peace agreement from the british earlier
02:18:29 <kmc> and it didn't work out too well for them
02:24:21 <kmc> britain consented to hitler annexing part of czechoslovakia, then he went much further, then britain declared war, then later churchill came to power
02:24:32 <kmc> so i think by that point yeah he would be pretty inclined to view further peace promises in a dim light
02:24:39 <kmc> also why are you in #jesus
02:26:20 <pikhq_> kmc: He's a *regular* there.
02:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo is happy he found #jesus
02:27:12 <Sgeo> heh
02:33:12 <kmc> reach out and touch faith
02:33:53 <pikhq_> Weird given that, to my knowledge, Sgeo is an atheist...
02:33:55 <pikhq_> *shrug*
02:34:08 <Sgeo> pikhq_, that knowledge is correct.
02:35:18 <olsner> if it was incorrect, would it be knowledge?
02:36:23 <olsner> back to the issue at hand then: why are you in #jesus?
02:38:10 <Sgeo> Because it's fun to watch? It's fun to participate in conversations as a voice contrary to ... I was going to say the mainstream opinion there, but as often as not it's Christians arguing with Christians as it is Christians vs non-Christians.
02:39:50 <kmc> i expect so
02:50:47 <shachaf> kmc: Is your web IRC thing going to replace #haskell?
02:51:23 <shachaf> You should have a feature where there are multiple levels of discussion, so people can make stupid jokes in one level without confusing the people who are asking for help at a different level.
02:51:58 <ion> IRC should have threads.
02:52:12 <Sgeo> Multiple levels would not solve the problem of different people having different competing explanations.
02:53:27 <shachaf> Maybe there should be a polite way of marking people who have no idea what they're talking about.
02:53:55 <zzo38> A codensity monad of a (->) makes a state monad; this can be used with continuations, too.
02:54:11 <ion> shachaf: +v is a good idiot flag on non-+m channels.
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02:56:16 <shachaf> ion: Yes, but it's kind of impolite.
02:56:19 <kmc> mit zephyr has "un-classes"
02:56:28 <shachaf> Also it's decided dictatorially.
02:56:40 <shachaf> kmc: I tried to connect to mit zephyr once but apparently you need to have an account?
02:56:49 <kmc> that is if people are answering a question on class "help", you can provide snarky useless answers on class "unhelp"
02:56:52 <kmc> yes
02:57:02 <shachaf> How do you get an account?
02:57:23 <kmc> well you can get an MIT Athena account by being sponsored by MIT faculty, employee, or organization, or other
02:57:35 <kmc> or you can get an account with one of the other zephyr realms that peers with them
02:57:47 <shachaf> Aha.
02:57:48 <kmc> but there aren't any that take general public registrations
02:59:16 <zzo38> Continuation monad can be used as a kind of monad to build (possibly recursive) data structures. You may see one such example in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx in which it builds a recursive data structure of a simple I/O.
03:00:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you need Cont for that?
03:02:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it is one possible way to make it.
03:04:26 <ion> shachaf: I don’t see how one could mark people who don’t know what they’re talking about in a polite manner.
03:07:56 * Sgeo marks Ryan Kelker
03:26:46 <kmc> easier to mark people who do know what they're talking about
03:26:50 <kmc> like on stack overflow
03:27:23 <shachaf> Yes, that's what I meant.
03:27:48 <shachaf> It's annoying when one or two clueless people give clueless advice to another clueless person.
03:27:55 <shachaf> It just propagates the cluelessness.
03:29:43 <kmc> but #haskell is too wrapped up in the idea that #haskell Is Nice to tell those people off
03:31:01 <kmc> oh, hey, that's Geek Social Fallacy #1 isn't it
03:47:39 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
03:58:08 <shachaf> ion: that's ! hackage.
03:58:35 <ion> D-:
03:58:59 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
04:01:07 <shachaf> Wait, why am I still here?
04:01:14 * shachaf vanishes in puff of smoke
04:08:37 <zzo38> I try to think of how to make some features of CsoundMML which means a program taking annotated orchestra and MML, and then writes a score file and inserts the necessary things into the orchestra (if any).
04:37:56 <kmc> a person complains that IPv4 broke on their Windows machine but IPv6 is working fine
04:38:00 <kmc> someone should just write a worm that does that
04:41:22 <ion> hah
04:41:35 <hagb4rd> some good earworms for dear eso/droogies from uncle hagb4rd --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKzH6pRfzoU
04:42:25 <hagb4rd> warning this track is very affected with light
04:43:10 <hagb4rd> as it might had been during the age of the trees
04:43:36 <Jafet> ion: politeness is overrated
04:47:20 <shachaf> Jafet: I suspect ion agrees with you.
04:47:51 <ion> overrating is polite
04:48:39 <Jafet> Impoverrating
04:51:06 <zzo38> I have typed the experience/inventory of the last Dungeons&Dragons session played so far, as I somehow have forgotten to do that before.
04:54:33 <zzo38> I have also wrote part of a list of lesser known deities which is part of what I remember from I read somewhere else, called Glo-Gleb and Arachne, and then I added my own, called Gxxyuxihuvxi.
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04:56:19 <Jafet> Geeksy Hooksy Hoofsy
04:56:37 <Jafet> Praise be upon it
04:56:47 <zzo38> What does that mean?
04:57:13 <Jafet> I should know, but don't
04:57:21 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
04:59:35 <Jafet> shachaf: okay, but not @.
05:00:18 <shachaf> #esoteric: un-#haskell?
05:00:55 <shachaf> Thank you for taking your snarkemarks off the main channel. :-)
05:05:26 <kmc> yeah i have thought as much on more tahn one occasion
05:05:56 <kmc> somethingawful forums have a related idea
05:06:02 <kmc> most forums have a "shitposting" subforum
05:06:09 <kmc> which is usually way more fun
05:06:21 <shachaf> kmc: Back when we had more than one channel in common, I would use each channel as un-otherchannel!
05:06:37 <shachaf> These days it's all boring and linear.
05:06:46 <Jafet> > co "#haskell"
05:06:48 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `co'
05:06:48 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
05:06:48 <lambdabot> `cos' (imported from...
05:06:58 <Jafet> > cos lettuce
05:07:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `lettuce'
05:07:18 <shachaf> kmc: Are the somethingawful forums worthwhile? Someone tells me I should pay my $10.
05:07:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: one of these days I am going to patch MediaWiki to automatically map 24 year bans to indefinite ones :P
05:10:56 <kmc> they're pretty entertaining
05:11:10 <kmc> it's worth $10 lifetime cost yes
05:11:39 <shachaf> Sometimes I look at their IRC channel.
05:12:11 <kmc> how is it?
05:12:12 * shachaf should probably quit IRC
05:12:16 <kmc> oh don't :(
05:12:18 <kmc> i would miss you
05:12:47 <shachaf> Well... Maybe I should just quit being in 80 channels. :-)
05:12:55 <kmc> yeah
05:25:16 <shachaf> I wish the Haskell web situation was better.
05:25:25 <elliott> i wish the web was better
05:25:30 <shachaf> Yes.
05:25:35 <kmc> i wish this song was louder
05:25:40 <shachaf> But given that it's terrible, I wish the Haskell abstractions over it weren't terrible.
05:25:54 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_?
05:25:56 <shachaf> I don't remember.
05:26:00 <shachaf> Though I've probably asked before
05:26:41 <kmc> No
05:26:44 <kmc> everyone says i should
05:26:48 <kmc> why do you mention it now?
05:27:14 <shachaf> I watched (most of) the film yesterday.
05:27:24 <shachaf> Nothing beyond that.
05:27:26 <shachaf> But you should!
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05:28:44 <shachaf> elliott: "u2"
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05:30:12 <Jafet> The worldwide web of lies
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05:33:59 <shachaf> kmc: Did you get the X1 in the end?
05:34:14 <kmc> well i ordered it
05:34:27 <kmc> won't get it until next month
05:34:33 <shachaf> Ah.
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05:34:49 <shachaf> Apparently even the i7 version is 2-core, not 4-core.
05:35:04 <kmc> is there a 4-core mobile core 2?
05:35:57 <shachaf> That depends on what mobile core 2 means.
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05:39:04 <kmc> you should run for political office
05:39:23 <shachaf> kmc: But I can't be US president!
05:39:28 <shachaf> I'm constitutionally discriminated against.
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05:39:56 <shachaf> kmc: What I mean is: Does "mobile core 2" have some special meaning, or does it just mean "of the type that goes in a laptop"?
05:40:30 <kmc> i thought intel designated some of them as "mobile"
05:40:47 <shachaf> It's quite possible. I don't pay that much attention to that.
05:42:43 <kmc> also it needs to be available in the right physical form factor
05:42:55 <shachaf> My laptop has a 4-core CPU.
05:43:20 <kmc> double thin fine pitch micro small outline quad ball grid array, or whatever
05:43:57 <kmc> the famous DTFPμSOQBGA
05:52:17 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/11/attacking-hardened-linux-systems-with.html
05:52:49 <shachaf> Yay, another kmcpost.
05:53:01 <shachaf> kmc: I heard you were on the case of restoring rwbarton's quiz to the Internet.
05:53:49 <kmc> yeah
05:53:52 <kmc> maybe
05:53:58 <zzo38> What is rwbarton's quiz?
05:54:38 <elliott> the incredibly difficult quest of putting a file on the internet
05:55:30 <shachaf> kmc still doesn't have "his own website"
05:55:41 <shachaf> Even I have one, man! Though I should take it down.
05:55:47 <kmc> what about this one? http://ugcs.net/~keegan/
05:55:54 <kmc> it even uses sans-serif fonts now!
05:55:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Then why didn't you?
05:55:57 <shachaf> That's ugcs.net. Doesn't count.
05:56:00 <kmc> it totally has some css
05:56:06 <zzo38> And if you need one can you use your own computer?
05:56:32 <zzo38> kmc: Why does it matter sans-serif fonts or not, that should be configured by the client, it uses whatever default font is set, isn't it?
05:57:48 <kmc> apparently my blog articles now automatically appear in http://www.reddit.com/r/prograrticles
05:58:03 <elliott> prograticles
05:58:06 <elliott> what a good portmanteau
05:58:30 <elliott> pfft, that bot's list of blogs doesn't even have Arcane Sentiment
05:58:38 <shachaf> elliott: help
05:58:40 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens
05:58:47 <shachaf> I'm editing the diagram. Are there any bugs in it?
05:58:51 <shachaf> Other than the one copumpkin found.
05:58:57 <copumpkin> I found nothing
06:01:40 <shachaf> elliott: "plz" improve this type
06:01:59 <shachaf> data Foo a = Some a | forall o. (o -> a) (Foo o)
06:02:20 <shachaf> Er.
06:02:25 <zzo38> It looks like not valid
06:02:26 <shachaf> data Foo a = Some a | forall o. Map (o -> a) (Foo o)
06:02:53 <zzo38> What do you think it is supposed to do?
06:03:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Not very much.
06:03:07 <shachaf> Foo ~ (Nat,)
06:03:11 <shachaf> But I want elliott to improve it.
06:03:33 <zzo38> The second part seem like some left Yoneda
06:03:34 <shachaf> kmc: Your reddit username is prograticles_bot?
06:03:47 * shachaf doesn't actually remember kmc's reddit username, but it was some weird unpronounceable nonsense.
06:04:04 <monqy> shachaf: have you tried: type Foo a = (Nat, a)
06:04:05 <elliott> that Foo looks like a free monad
06:04:41 <shachaf> monqy: thats not an improvement :'(
06:04:57 <shachaf> monqy: and yes i have tried it, see above :'(
06:05:13 <shachaf> elliott: Well, the goal was to make something sort of like a "non-free functor"
06:05:13 <monqy> i don't want to see above :(
06:05:24 <shachaf> I.e. one that keeps track of the fmaps you've done to it.
06:05:31 <kmc> shachaf: people really love embedding GDB breakpoints in C source code, it turns out
06:05:43 <shachaf> Map id (Map ord (Map chr (Some 97))) -- e.g.
06:05:54 <zzo38> It isn't a functor then
06:05:55 <elliott> data Foo' r = forall o. Map (o -> r) r; type Foo = Free Foo' or something seems isomorphic.
06:06:03 <elliott> sort of
06:06:16 <shachaf> kmc: I haven't read your post yet.
06:06:23 <shachaf> Oh, the PF JIT!
06:06:33 * shachaf likes that JIT.
06:07:10 <zzo38> kmc: Can you embed GDB breakpoints in a C code? I have just used things like *0=*0
06:07:44 <zzo38> (which is probably not the best way)
06:07:46 <shachaf> I have just used things like asm("int3")
06:08:30 <kmc> zzo38: this is the way i came up with: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/01/embedding-gdb-breakpoints-in-c-source.html
06:08:43 <zzo38> kmc: I will look later
06:08:58 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, that.
06:09:01 <kmc> it's a macro that puts the current address into a special section
06:09:16 <kmc> then i have a wrapper around gdb which reads those and adds breakpoints to them
06:09:28 <shachaf> gdb has this nice Python scripting thing, I'm told.
06:09:30 <kmc> (or a gdb plugin written in python)
06:09:37 <shachaf> (Well, OK, no one told me it's nice.)
06:09:38 <kmc> yeah, somebody sent me one and i merged it
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06:16:01 <zzo38> Is this OK? 1097337155,1162588218,1231719311,1304961152,1382558180,1464769368,1551869087,1644148025,1741914154,1845493760,1955232530,2071496706
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06:17:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Hmm, I'd say 1002841731,1095464447,1164270051,1222683387,1298220537,1352792256,1501379263,1641869480,1662853268,1785140043,1817697110,1857747801]
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06:18:16 <zzo38> shachaf: Why?
06:18:24 <shachaf> zzo38: I might ask you the same question.
06:18:43 <zzo38> Are my numbers accurate?
06:19:10 <shachaf> Mine are accurate.
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06:20:02 <shachaf> > sum (read "[1002841731,1095464447,1164270051,1222683387,1298220537,1352792256,1501379263,1641869480,1662853268,1785140043,1817697110,1857747801]") == 17402959374
06:20:04 <lambdabot> True
06:20:06 <shachaf> See?
06:21:22 <zzo38> It doesn't look like it to me, since at least 1845493760 must be correct since it is 440 shifted left 22, I think. The others are approximate but I don't know if they are close enough.
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06:22:17 <shachaf> Oh, maybe we're talking about different things.
06:22:50 <zzo38> I am trying to make the notes 22 octaves higher from middle C.
06:23:22 <shachaf> Oh, unrelated.
06:27:36 <elliott> `welcome Section42L
06:27:49 <HackEgo> Section42L: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:37:57 <kmc> sigh, JavaScript MVC website uses exclusionary language ("Our users are software craftsmen...")
06:38:00 <kmc> and I feel like there's probably no harm meant and this could be fixed quietly
06:38:02 <kmc> except
06:38:21 <kmc> there is no way to contact them except through public Twitter or GitHub etc.
06:39:20 <kmc> which guarantees that every idiot brogrammer will weigh in, and much worse things will be said
06:39:46 <copumpkin> "PC POLICE ASSAULT, GET OUT THE BIG GUNS"
06:39:54 <copumpkin> ಠ_ಠ
06:40:06 <shachaf> kmc: The whois record has an email address of a person listed as "founder"
06:40:07 <copumpkin> I hate that
06:41:04 <kmc> hm
06:41:09 <kmc> i could also get an email from whois
06:41:15 <kmc> er
06:41:22 <kmc> i could also get an email from git commits, is what i meant to say
06:41:24 <kmc> but that seems creepy
06:42:01 <shachaf> I think if you list your name on the main page, and your email address is your.name@gmail.com, it's not unreasonable to expect emails.
06:43:29 <shachaf> Well, s/expect/get/
06:45:26 <zzo38> Assuming you use Gmail and you use your full name for email.
06:45:44 <shachaf> kmc: Were you objecting to "${ADJ}men" or "crafts${PERSON}"?
06:46:00 <zzo38> I have WHOIS too but it is someone else not me, so it is someone else's name and email, although the postal address is the same.
06:46:17 <shachaf> Is it your brother?
06:46:37 <elliott> kmc: are you telling me you don't like dumb image macros in github issues
06:46:43 <elliott> kmc: who could dislike those!
06:46:52 <zzo38> It is not your business who it is.
06:47:04 <shachaf> zzo38: Whose business is it who it is?
06:47:11 <shachaf> Or is that also not my business?
06:47:17 <kmc> shachaf: heh
06:47:35 <kmc> i object to the implication that women don't use this software
06:47:36 <zzo38> shachaf: It is whoever's name is on there, and my own.
06:51:26 <zzo38> kmc: I don't think there is such an implication actually
07:13:20 <kmc> oh?
07:14:57 <shachaf> @google person paper
07:14:59 <lambdabot> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
07:15:00 <lambdabot> Title: Douglas Hofstadter - Person Paper on Purity in Language
07:16:20 <kmc> or maybe i'm supposed to email contact@bitovi.com ?
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07:20:03 <zzo38> I have a book by Hofstadter, but not that one.
07:20:48 <kmc> i guess i will do that
07:20:49 <elliott> that's not a book
07:21:15 <shachaf> elliott: psst but i read it in a book tho :'(
07:21:31 <Bike> it's in themas, which is a collection of essays I think?
07:22:06 <shachaf> Yes.
07:22:12 <shachaf> It was a column in _Scientific American_ once.
07:22:25 <shachaf> Later it was published in a book.
07:28:53 <kmc> i'm getting a kind of brogrammy vibe from these people
07:28:57 <kmc> we'll see what they say
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07:38:00 <elliott> kmc: have you noticed that there is another problem with the paragraph "Our users are software craftsmen who care about doing JavaScript development the right way. They care about things like test driven development, performance, code quality, structure and maintainability."
07:38:18 <elliott> namely that it is self-aggrandisement that says nothing :P
07:40:50 <kmc> heh
07:41:28 <kmc> well if I sent an email to every website that does that, i would quickly hit my outgoing mail quota
07:43:04 <shachaf> When I send emails I like to paste snippets of them into IRC to show off.
07:43:07 <shachaf> I'm a real outgoing mail quota.
07:45:22 <kmc> ugh
07:45:26 <kmc> that one took me aminute
07:49:46 <shachaf> I feel like I ought to write a compiler at some point.
07:50:21 <monqy> why
07:50:37 <shachaf> to spite you monqy :'(
07:50:47 <fizzie> I sporadically get this feeling I ought to write a self-hosting compiler.
07:50:53 <monqy> it's not working........................................
07:51:12 <shachaf> monqy: drat and double drat
07:51:24 <monqy> maybe it'll spite elliott though
07:51:54 <shachaf> elliott: blom should i spite
07:52:35 <shachaf> monqy: wait no
07:52:45 <shachaf> monqy: i wanted to sprite you
07:52:52 <fizzie> Spite Rolf Blom.
07:53:06 <kmc> you should write a vau calculus interpreter in scheme + enough scheme as a library for vau calculus to self-host it
07:53:15 <fizzie> "Blom's scheme? More like Blom's...", uh, I can't figure out how to continue from there.
07:54:15 <elliott> <fizzie> I sporadically get this feeling I ought to write a self-hosting compiler.
07:54:20 <elliott> fizzie: me too except I also get the feeling it should boot
07:55:15 <fizzie> I suppose it's one of those universal things, like the naked-at-school dream and so on.
07:55:19 <shachaf> elliott: So you know the issue of minimal complete definitions not being compiler-checked?
07:55:37 <elliott> no
07:55:40 <elliott> well
07:55:41 <elliott> yes
07:55:43 <shachaf> So you don't get warnings for "instance Eq Foo"
07:56:15 <shachaf> Would there be a problem with just explicitly specifying it to the compiler in a pragma?
07:56:41 <shachaf> I.e. class Eq where (==), (/=) :: a -> a -> Bool; {-# MINIMAL (==) #-} {-# MINIMAL (/=) #-}
07:56:49 <shachaf> Where you could specify any combination of operators in a pragma, of course
08:02:03 <elliott> i assume not
08:02:56 <shachaf> Is there a better way to do it?
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08:25:49 <elliott> i assume not
08:25:55 <elliott> you could do simple usage checks in the default definition
08:26:12 <elliott> at the cost of not allowing a == b = const ... (a /= b)
08:26:20 <elliott> not allowing as in it doesn't work for coverage checks
08:34:45 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy do the "do the "do the "do the "do the....
08:36:05 <monqy> hi
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09:08:44 <shachaf> elliott: No good in general.
09:09:00 <shachaf> I mean, no good with things in base, even.
09:09:34 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/
09:12:44 <elliott> Alternative sucks anyway
09:12:54 <elliott> iirc some and many only apply to some instances
09:14:54 <shachaf> Yes.
09:15:11 <shachaf> Anyway this probably needs to be explicit.
09:15:28 <shachaf> > some (Just 5)
09:15:32 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
09:15:41 <monqy> hey
09:15:44 <monqy> i was justa bout to do that
09:15:49 <monqy> exactly that
09:15:50 <monqy> with the 5
09:15:54 <monqy> woW
09:19:00 <shachaf> monqy: "brainwashed minds think alike????"
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09:24:00 <monqy> > many []
09:24:03 <lambdabot> [[]]
09:24:04 <monqy> "very cool"
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09:32:35 <zzo38> But, some and many are operators which may apply to any Alternative even though they are not useful with some, they still have a definition which can be common for any one even though it may be infinite loop so not always the defined result.
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11:15:06 <shachaf> ion: ?
11:16:20 <ion> shachaf: ‽
11:16:28 <shachaf> The shown thing.
11:18:52 <elliott> shachaf: has neutrino admitted he is cheater yet
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11:19:13 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think so?
11:19:15 <shachaf> But basically.
11:20:01 <elliott> well the difference between "basically" and "yes" is more or less the crux of cheater's career...
11:20:44 <ion> instance Show a => Show (Bazaar a a t) where { showsPrec prec (Bazaar baz) = showParen (prec > 10) (showString "Bazaar " . magicShowsPrec 11 (baz MagicShow)) } or something
11:22:56 <shachaf> The challenge here is to write a Show instance for Bazaar?
11:23:07 <shachaf> Can you give me an example of a specific Bazaar and the output you'd want for it?
11:23:52 <elliott> why would cheater join #haskell under a new name anyway
11:23:54 <ion> show ((\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6) (\a -> Bazaar ($ a))) == "Bazaar (… <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6)"
11:23:56 <elliott> wasn't he getting along just fine with his old name
11:24:02 <elliott> he was never banned or anything afaik
11:24:29 <elliott> ion: that sounds impossible
11:24:31 <monqy> to bug you
11:24:35 <monqy> are you bugged
11:24:45 <shachaf> ion: toListOf?
11:25:01 <shachaf> Oh, wait.
11:25:07 <elliott> monqy: im just perplexed
11:25:10 <elliott> is that bugging
11:25:22 <monqy> hm
11:25:33 <monqy> borderline perhaps
11:25:51 <shachaf> λ> toListOf bazaar $ (\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6) sell
11:25:51 <shachaf> [5,6]
11:26:04 <shachaf> sell = \a -> Bazaar ($ a)
11:26:23 <shachaf> I mean, a Bazaar is perfectly traversable.
11:27:12 <shachaf> bazaar :: Traversal (Bazaar a b t) t a b
11:28:06 <shachaf> Then again, you already know that, since you wrote partsOf. So I must still be missing something. :-)
11:28:10 <ion> elliott: Yes, i think so too. But i was asking in any case – i wouldn’t have figured out, say, something like Data.Reflection myself either.
11:28:38 <elliott> well apparently i was wrong and it is possible
11:28:46 <elliott> or else I am also missing something
11:29:12 <shachaf> Reflection?
11:29:21 <shachaf> I must be completely missing the point here. :-(
11:29:47 <ion> shachaf: Let’s forget about Bazaar. (,) <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6 == "(_ :: Integer -> Integer -> (Integer,Integer)) <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6"
11:29:59 <ion> shachaf: Reflection was just another example of something magical.
11:30:11 <shachaf> ion: What's the type of the function you want?
11:30:40 <shachaf> @ty \f -> liftA2 (,) (f 5) (f 6)
11:30:42 <lambdabot> (Num a, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> f (b, b)
11:31:40 <shachaf> foo :: (forall f. (Applicative f, Show a, Typeable a) => (a -> f a) -> f t) -> String?
11:31:47 <shachaf> Maybe forall f a
11:32:41 <elliott> ion: You should omit the type signature on _.
11:32:45 <elliott> So you don't need a gross Typeable constraint.
11:33:04 <elliott> ion: (Did I tell you about reflection or have you, like, actually used it?)
11:33:36 <shachaf> forall f a t?
11:33:45 * shachaf is now confused about what ion wants.
11:34:26 <shachaf> Anyway, isn't this just toListOf?
11:34:39 <ion> https://gist.github.com/6d958eef0df23c282cbd
11:34:41 <ion> λ> succ <$> shown 42
11:34:43 <ion> _ <$> shown 42
11:37:02 <ion> elliott: I don’t remember who mentioned Data.Reflection, i probably encountered it in #haskell. I haven’t needed to use it so far.
11:39:37 <elliott> when was the last time you used a reader monad :p
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11:40:15 <ion> heh
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11:45:35 <shachaf> λ> let foo :: forall a t. (Show a, Typeable a, Typeable t) => (forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f a) -> f t) -> String; foo r = let bz = r sell in ("(_ :: " ++ (concat $ replicate (lengthOf bazaar bz) $ (show $ typeOf (undefined::a)) ++ " -> ") ++ show (typeOf (undefined::t)) ++ ") <$> ") ++ (intercalate " <*> " $ map (\x -> "shown (" ++ show x ++ ")") (toListOf bazaar bz))
11:45:43 <shachaf> λ> foo (\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6)
11:45:43 <shachaf> "(_ :: Integer -> Integer -> (Integer,Integer)) <$> shown (5) <*> shown (6)"
11:46:01 <shachaf> "worst text generating thing ever?"
11:46:21 <shachaf> ion: Of course, you can get more information that that out of it.
11:46:39 <shachaf> (And this would be much simpler if you just used Bazaar. But anyway.)
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:54 < shachaf> Should I watch that?
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < tgeeky> shachaf: yes
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < ion> shachaf: Yes!
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < kmc> Primer is great
11:51:32 <shachaf> I totally watched it.
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11:52:04 <shachaf> ion: Anyway, the extra information you can get out of it is the reconstructed structure
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11:52:21 <shachaf> I.e. extract of the (Bazaar a a) comonad.
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12:22:14 <ion> shachaf: Ah, that does work indeed. I was going to the wrong direction thinking of how to do it with magic Functor and Applicative instances.
12:26:58 <shachaf> All you need is Const
12:27:09 <shachaf> I,I All you need is Const (Const (Const Is All) You) Need
12:27:28 <shachaf> ion: You need a trickier magic Applicative for the other direction, though.
12:27:33 <shachaf> ...Which you've already written.
12:29:51 <shachaf> Just remember Bazaar a b t ~ ([a], [b] -> t) where the lists are the same length.
12:30:05 <shachaf> Hmm, "the lists are the same length" doesn't quite capture it, because one of them is in negative position.
12:30:09 <shachaf> But you know what I mean. :-)
12:30:18 <shachaf> The second list has to be the same length as the first.
12:31:55 <elliott> Bazaar a b t ~ exists n. (Vec n a, Vec n b -> t)
12:32:14 <shachaf> elliott: Right.
12:35:08 <shachaf> I,I i(Vec n a)
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13:32:45 <atriq> After that update, the local Gamzee cosplayer is in tears
13:33:35 <atriq> FSVO local, in
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13:36:55 <nella> harry potter e il principe mezzosangue
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13:38:01 <atriq> How odd
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17:51:17 <zzo38> Would you buy it or use it if it were available? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9500
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18:39:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would I want to?
18:50:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't know; in case someone is interested. I would want to buy it.
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19:00:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, what does it offer that emulators don't?
19:01:11 <fizzie> The thrill of hardware.
19:01:48 <elliott> the harder thrillware
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19:04:16 <zzo38> Depending on the implementation, it may be more accurate, and can use any cartridge and input devices, and some people may prefer to use this in some cases.
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19:05:30 <AnotherTest> Hello
19:05:32 <pikhq_> zzo38: The real important question would be, how accurate would the design be?
19:05:55 <zzo38> pikhq_: Of course it depend on how it is.
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19:07:34 <pikhq_> I assume you have no intention of even thinking about the expansion port of the NES.
19:08:28 <zzo38> Correct.
19:09:22 <zzo38> Some of its functions which may be used might be wired through an adapter, if you ever need to use it for any reason.
19:13:21 <pikhq_> Hmm. Well, there is an easy way to make it useful-ish...
19:13:42 <pikhq_> The audio in line moved from the cartridge slot to the expansion slot in the NES, right?
19:14:30 <pikhq_> You could use one of the lines that connects from the cartridge to the expansion slot to carry audio from a Famicom adapter.
19:15:52 <quintopia> zzo38: is that just specs or do you have a circuit design etc for it?
19:15:56 <zzo38> Yes there is Audio in, in the NES expansion port, although I am not sure if it is the same thing.
19:16:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Just specifications; most of the circuit design would not be too complicated, though.
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19:24:42 <zzo38> The NES expansion port seems badly designed and mostly useless; the useful functions exist on other ports (including the Famicom expansion port). One thing on there that might seem useful sometimes (if PRG/CE is insufficient) would be A15; and even that is not so useful on the expansion port instead of the cartridge.
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19:27:45 <zzo38> It is possible for NES expansion port to be a bit more useful on the NES, but in what I described, with 60-pins cartridge, NES controller port, Famicom expansion port, it has the functions you need already.
19:38:46 <AnotherTest> What exactly would be wrong about the sentence "but the relationship ended long before marriage."? (as in awkward phrasing)
19:39:28 <atriq> :(
19:39:53 <elliott> ):
19:39:53 <AnotherTest> And what's wrong with "his hands flaunt in front of the Great Movie Ride in Disney World, Florida."?
19:40:32 <atriq> Some things are difficult and this is bad.
19:40:43 <Bike> can "flaunt" be used intransitively?
19:41:10 <AnotherTest> Not sure. It's on wikipedia.
19:41:15 <AnotherTest> (that sentence)
19:43:15 <Gregor> AnotherTest: (1) Somebody doesn't like beginning sentences with prepositions. (2) It has no obvious meaning, that's what. "Flaunt" kinda needs context, and as is rarely applied to hands... if it was his hands that were being flaunted, then it should have said "he flaunted his hands", not "his hands flaunt". "His hands flaunt" implies that his hands flaunt /something/, but we don't know what.
19:43:35 <Gregor> Neither are grammatically wrong as far as I can tell, they're both just terrible.
19:45:12 <elliott> "his hands flaunt" is such a good construction though
19:45:15 <elliott> on purely aesthetic grounds
19:45:17 <elliott> what does it MEAN??
19:45:31 <Gregor> Meaning is for losers :)
19:45:35 <AnotherTest> No idea, but it's on wikipedia.
19:45:46 <AnotherTest> David Copperfield's page
19:46:37 <fizzie> Flaunt around.
19:46:54 <quintopia> flaunt his crotch
19:48:15 <oerjan> Gregor: "but" isn't a preposition, also it's _ending_ it with them ("marriage" isn't one either.)
19:49:13 <oerjan> well, not a preposition there, i can imagine other uses where it may be ("life is but a dream")
19:50:19 <Gregor> Oh, hahah, I'm bad at reading X_X
19:50:25 <Gregor> I take the excuse that I'm sick :)
19:51:34 <elliott> life is but his hands flaunting
19:52:10 <oerjan> well if anyone's hands could flaunt, it would be david copperfield, i think
19:54:02 <Arc_Koen> flaunt
19:54:05 <Arc_Koen> interesting word
19:54:10 <fizzie> Flauntulence.
19:54:18 <elliott> oerjan: there are no??? fields of copper though?
19:54:21 <elliott> it;s just not realistic
19:54:52 -!- nortti-9front has joined.
19:55:12 <Bike> «(intransitive, obsolete) To wave or flutter smartly in the wind.» «(intransitive) (archaic or literary) To show off with flashy clothing.» so copperfield is really old I guess
19:55:30 <Bike> and his hands are well-dressed.
19:55:58 <oerjan> AnotherTest: i cannot find this wikipedia page of which you speak
19:57:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Copperfield has made it invisible.
19:57:32 <oerjan> ah.
20:00:02 <kmc> shachaf: http://grsecurity.net/~spender/jit_prot.diff
20:00:49 <Fiora> kmc: is that related to um... http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/11/attacking-hardened-linux-systems-with.html this post?
20:01:41 <oerjan> elliott: there are fields of gold, why not copper?
20:02:00 <kmc> yes
20:02:11 <kmc> i am the author of the latter
20:02:46 <Fiora> does that trick reliably avoid the problem, or can you like, still smuggle the instructions you want in by using non-immediate bits, like opcodes and r/m bytes?
20:03:09 <Fiora> it seems like it'd be trickier but is it still possible?
20:04:16 <kmc> yeah, it's a good question
20:04:32 <kmc> in this case you have a pretty limited range of opcodes and addressing modes you can generate
20:06:20 <Fiora> ahhh, so you can't use some of the really long opcodes like later-SSE stuff?
20:07:00 <Fiora> I'm imagining like, writing a search function that, given a set of operations you want to execute, tries to find some set of valid instructions that you could smuggle it in with
20:07:08 <Fiora> automating the process
20:07:25 -!- ineiros has joined.
20:07:45 <kmc> yeah
20:07:54 <kmc> that is probably a viable technique for attacking fancy optimizing JITs
20:08:00 <Bike> oh, i think a book i have had a very basic version of that, where you put in some shellcode and it tries to output it in alphanumeric code or w/e
20:08:45 <kmc> yeah there is a phrack article about that
20:09:31 <kmc> the kernel BPF JIT is simplistic and just maps each BPF instruction to an x86 instruction with a specific template
20:10:33 -!- nortti-9front has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:34 <Fiora> the stuff I'm seeing about BPF talks about just-in-time compilation and stuff... but I remember your post talking about inserting specific x86 instructions, am I missing something?
20:14:22 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:15:41 <kmc> yes but i have to go now, i can explain in 30 min or so
20:16:19 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:16:38 <Fiora> okay! thanks
20:17:51 <oerjan> elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Making_Use_Of_Fat_Binders_To_Assist_Your_Weight_Management_Goals
20:18:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover> hey atriq, elliott, su
20:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> p
20:19:18 <olsner> hmm, a weight loss esolang? interesting
20:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fascinating
20:19:37 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> is it a carb-counting minsky machine perhaps
20:20:16 <oerjan> nah, clearly you should have one register for carb, one for fat, and so one
20:20:18 <oerjan> *on
20:20:57 <oerjan> and you need some binders, that's in the name
20:20:59 <Bike> the higher the values in the registers, the slower the execution goes
20:21:12 <oerjan> i think that requires something with scope...
20:22:57 <oerjan> maybe a lambda calculus with a culinary type discipline
20:22:59 <Fiora> consume [fridge+offsetof(fridge.cheese.swiss)] loads the cheese, and increments the fat, carb, and protein registers by the appropriate amounts?
20:23:27 -!- aaron9000 has joined.
20:23:33 <oerjan> eek, oop
20:24:14 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:24:27 <oerjan> i guess we'll need BinderFactories, then
20:25:33 -!- aaron9000 has left.
20:25:44 <ion> Full of women?
20:25:54 <oerjan> ...wat
20:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> women go in binders
20:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> well known fact
20:26:23 <oerjan> OKAY
20:26:41 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:26:57 <Fiora> @google romney binders full of women
20:27:00 <lambdabot> http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/opinion/cardona-binders-women/index.html
20:27:00 <lambdabot> Title: Romney's empty 'binders full of women' - CNN.com
20:27:01 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, hey
20:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, succession fort the third, what say you
20:28:29 <atriq> I say "why not"
20:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ok
20:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> who starts
20:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (my fortress backbone is boring and i hate it, fwiw)
20:31:08 <atriq> (my fortress backbone is weird)
20:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> weird is good
20:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't get as anal when trying to position things then
20:31:51 <atriq> Weird and annoyingly regular
20:32:23 <atriq> And doesn't take into account the wonder that is minecarts?
20:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh christ don't let's start with the minecarts now
20:33:38 <atriq> Had bad times with minecarts?
20:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> they require a lot of trial and error
20:42:32 <atriq> Okay
20:42:39 <atriq> Do we dare let elliott start?
20:44:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:45:50 <zzo38> I think some effects for pictures could apply to sounds too, and some effects for sounds count also be applied to pictures and videos (you have to select which dimension you want, which may be time dimension). You could also apply some of the effects for still pictures to the time dimension of videos, too.
20:46:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:47:11 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, do we dare let elliott start?
20:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> well, you started handlekindled and i started rosyarrow
20:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> so yeah
20:47:36 <atriq> But he is NO LONGER ONLINE
20:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> selfish bastard
20:49:34 <atriq> We could let zzo38 start
20:49:45 <atriq> And see what hellish landscape we end up with
20:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> hey zzo38
20:49:59 <Phantom_Hoover> you up for it
20:50:02 <kmc> Fiora: back
20:51:01 <oerjan> it will be extremely logical, from a certain point of view.
20:52:13 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Up for what?
20:52:29 <atriq> Starting the THIRD #ESOTERIC SUCCESSION FORTRESS
20:52:33 <atriq> AHAHAHA!
20:52:36 <zzo38> I do not know how that works.
20:52:58 <atriq> You'll figure it out
20:53:03 <atriq> It's a relatively simple game
20:53:04 <Phantom_Hoover> never heard of df?
20:53:36 * Fiora is here
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> who is Fiora
20:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> are you actually Fiona with a pen that doesn't quite work
20:54:36 <zzo38> I don't even know how to start to figure it out.
20:54:39 <Fiora> um... I'm just a friend of Bike (I think that's his name here?)... he mentioned this channel had interesting things
20:54:45 <Fiora> and I read kmc's blog sometimes
20:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> do you play dwarf fortress
20:54:52 <atriq> kmc has a blog!?
20:55:21 * Fiora hasn't ever, no :<
20:55:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:55:26 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: No. I tried once but it runs too slowly.
20:56:31 <Bike> bike is bike, yes indeed.
20:56:35 <Phantom_Hoover> if only lymia was still here
20:56:42 <kmc> so you have to distinguish the instructions the BPF JIT emits from the instructions the attacker is smuggling in
20:57:05 <atriq> Did anyone ask Fiora the Hexham/Finland question?
20:57:06 <kmc> the latter are hidden within the immediate arguments to the former
20:57:29 <Fiora> okay, but like, let's say you have a JIT that compiles Java to x86, you can't control the x86 with the Java (at least not completely), right?
20:57:40 <Fiora> so how can you be sure to get the exact right instructions so that the smuggled instructions are right?
20:58:01 <Fiora> or does it let you give it full control over the input x86 (within the constraints at least?)
20:58:23 <kmc> you have to know how that particular JIT works
20:58:25 <Bike> presumably you have access to the JIT's source, or at least you can figure out what Java results in what x86
20:59:46 <atriq> Fiora, are you in Hexham?
20:59:49 <kmc> by reading its source, or by observing the output and determining it to be stable
20:59:58 <atriq> (important question)
21:00:19 <Fiora> hexham? google says it's a city
21:00:24 <kmc> in the case of the BPF JIT it is very easy because it translates each BPF instruction to a particular x86 instruction sequence, regardless of the context
21:00:32 <atriq> Hexham's a city!?
21:00:34 <atriq> It's a town
21:00:39 <Fiora> @google hexham
21:00:40 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham
21:00:40 <lambdabot> Title: Hexham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:00:42 <Fiora> erm, town I guess?
21:00:46 <atriq> Yeah
21:00:49 <kmc> a fancier jit will have fancier instruction selection, register allocation, non-local optimizations, etc.
21:00:52 <Fiora> I'm from the US <_<;
21:00:55 <atriq> Okay
21:01:09 <Fiora> so could the JIT try to be "more secure" by doing unpredictable things with the code?
21:01:10 <kmc> and with a tracing JIT what's compiled is not a whole function but a single control-flow path, which can span several function and skip parts of each
21:01:12 <atriq> There are a ridiculous number of people from Hexham in this channel
21:01:13 <Fiora> like based on /dev/random
21:01:18 <kmc> yeah
21:01:32 <atriq> Up to 2 at any time
21:01:33 <Fiora> I guess, random register allocation, random splitting of constants, random insturction reordering...
21:01:36 <atriq> And Finland is worse
21:02:12 <atriq> Although more proportional to its population
21:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> if you were from the west midlands it'd emerge as a strong contender too
21:04:23 <Bike> random splitting of constants would be the big one, I suppose, since then the attacker can't even guarantee they'll have a sequence of bytes to jump to.
21:04:36 <Fiora> I guess, but what if you could do it entirely without constants?
21:04:37 <Bike> *an appropriate
21:04:41 <Fiora> like, just with opcodes and r/m bytes
21:04:48 <Fiora> that might be really hard though
21:04:51 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, shall I just start one?
21:06:00 <Bike> I don't think most JITs are going to emit the really complicated instructions that would be good for that?
21:06:34 <Vorpal> weird, I can't get systrace to work on my 4.1 android phone. It should work but I get error messages about stuff under /sys/kernel/debug not existing...
21:06:43 <Fiora> I guess if you could control the register allocation... but if it used only like a couple registers... yeah that would be hard...
21:06:47 <Fiora> I guess you'd have to try to be sure
21:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, i don't think elliott is going to make a showing so yeah
21:06:58 <Phantom_Hoover> unless Vorpal wants to
21:07:29 <atriq> Should I play vanilla or that mod you posted the other day?
21:07:33 <atriq> With the anthracite
21:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> anthramod!
21:08:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, want what?
21:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> start a succession fortress
21:08:50 <Vorpal> naah
21:09:09 <Vorpal> nah*
21:09:11 <Phantom_Hoover> good
21:10:07 <Vorpal> why is that good?
21:10:07 <atriq> Okay, worldgen has begun
21:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone listen to sburban jungle!
21:11:42 <atriq> Listening!
21:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (has Vorpal even heard sburban jungle)
21:12:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, think so, ages ago
21:12:16 <Vorpal> not sure why I would listen to it now though
21:12:55 <atriq> Dwarf Fortress worldgen isn't as awesome as SBurb loading screen
21:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> well, the rendering isn't
21:13:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, FireFly, there? I left eclipse running on that upgrade... It just finished XD
21:13:16 <atriq> True
21:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> some pretty crazy stuff happens in worldgen
21:13:58 <atriq> Some pretty crazy stuff happens in SBurb worldgen too, mind
21:14:14 <atriq> Although time travel/predestination makes it unclear when that happens
21:14:19 <FireFly> Vorpal: huh?
21:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't sburb worldgen the final section of gameplay
21:14:30 <Vorpal> FireFly, remember we talked about that yesterday or so?
21:14:49 <Vorpal> FireFly, the slooow eclipse upgrade?
21:15:00 <FireFly> doesn't ring any bells
21:15:08 <Vorpal> weird, who was it then I talked to
21:15:18 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, I think so?
21:15:22 <Vorpal> I know fizzie, and I thought you too
21:15:22 <atriq> Who knows
21:15:24 <Vorpal> hmm maybe
21:15:28 <Vorpal> oh well, doesn't matter
21:15:39 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> although i don't think we've seen a single standard sburb game so who knows
21:15:51 -!- jix has joined.
21:16:17 <atriq> It's possible there is no such thing
21:16:26 <atriq> Maybe the point of SBurb is to teach its players
21:16:48 <atriq> It teaches the trolls that supreming over everyone is bad
21:17:01 <atriq> And sometimes you have to admit that others are in some respects superior?
21:17:58 <atriq> And did that by making their subsession glitched in a way I don't know what I'm saying
21:19:27 <atriq> WorldGen is complete
21:19:46 <atriq> Just as the third version of SBurban Jungle I have starts playing
21:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> third?
21:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i only know of 2!
21:20:14 <atriq> Two are identical
21:20:28 <atriq> There's the Volume 4 version, the Volumes 1-4 version, and the Brief Mix
21:20:42 <atriq> There we go, the brief mix has just finished
21:20:55 <atriq> Now for SBurban Reversal
21:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> no
21:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you use that for world ungen
21:21:40 <atriq> Terezi Owns?
21:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> sburban countdown?
21:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> sburban jungle: percussion mix?
21:24:02 <atriq> Okay, now to browse the suitable sites
21:24:18 <atriq> To ElevatorStuck
21:25:19 <atriq> I've found a good place, it's quite hot
21:25:36 -!- monqy has joined.
21:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> hey monqy did you learn to play dwarf fortress
21:26:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was reasonable.
21:26:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: And yes, I remember the upgrade.
21:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, make sure to name the starting 7
21:27:35 <atriq> Hot, heavily forested, thick vegetation, wilderness, brook, some soil, shallow metals, deep metals, flux stone
21:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> cool
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> wait, brook?
21:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yessssssss
21:28:05 <atriq> :)
21:28:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: The other person commenting on it was FreeFull, incidentally.
21:28:19 <atriq> The brook is called Bunnyidol
21:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> finally a site where i can find an easily-accessible source of working fluid for my generators
21:28:27 <atriq> Which sounds somewhat suspicious
21:28:39 <fizzie> (Both are "FFs".)
21:29:17 <atriq> Should I prepare for the journey carefully?
21:29:22 <FreeFull> Commenting on what?
21:29:36 <fizzie> FreeFull: On Vorpal's slow Eclipse upgrade.
21:30:05 <FreeFull> I'm not going out there and making people's Eclipse upgrades slow
21:30:20 <fizzie> No, but you commented on hypothetical reasons for it.
21:30:27 <fizzie> Or at least someone with your name did.
21:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, only if you don't want to get started this week
21:31:22 <atriq> Embarking, whey-hey!
21:31:30 <FreeFull> what is suspicious
21:31:36 <atriq> "Palacecrushed"
21:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> bunnyidol is
21:31:45 <atriq> FreeFull, the name of this brook
21:33:36 -!- segorev has joined.
21:35:07 <atriq> Okay, stuff IS HAPPENING
21:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> are you making it hapen
21:35:48 <coppro> where making this hapen
21:36:11 <atriq> were DOIN it bro!
21:39:09 <atriq> Just struck Haemetite
21:39:46 <atriq> Or however that's spelt
21:40:01 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:40:36 <atriq> Okay, we've also got Sphalerite, so I guess we could make zinc?
21:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> haematite
21:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> we can make things out of brass i guess
21:43:35 <atriq> First bedroom built!
21:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> dwarves don't build!
21:44:32 <atriq> By which I mean, first bedroom made a bedroom
21:44:33 <Arc_Koen> is dwarf fortress a rogue-like derivative of minecraft or something?
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> not really
21:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's kind of like rts minecraft except you don't have direct control over your units and you just designate tasks to be carried out
21:46:04 <Arc_Koen> you have units in minecraft?
21:46:13 <fizzie> A unit.
21:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> that's the rts part
21:46:22 <Arc_Koen> I thought it was like a first-person shooter
21:46:30 <Arc_Koen> except without the shooting
21:46:33 <atriq> I've just struck fortification agate
21:46:41 <atriq> It's a first-person miner
21:46:42 <Arc_Koen> gate
21:46:44 <Arc_Koen> good idea
21:46:57 <fizzie> There's some bow-shooting going on in Minecraft.
21:46:59 <atriq> Imagine Minecraft meets Rollercoaster Tycoon meets Pikmin
21:47:12 <atriq> Oh, it's a gem
21:47:22 <atriq> I thought it was some sort of concrete or something
21:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> you have a bunch of dwarves, they need to be kept alive and happy
21:47:34 <atriq> But that's fortification aggregate
21:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> you designate an area for mining or a workshop to be built or whatever and eventually they'll do it
21:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> but you can't directly control any of them
21:49:16 <fizzie> I thought that horribly crappy Sonic animation was bad in YouTube recommendations, but now it's some "live-action" (..maybe, judging from the thumbnail..) thing with Sonic edited in, titled "A Day in the Life of Sonic- Sonic tries to get laid".
21:49:55 <fizzie> And then some Battle Programmer Shirase stuff. (Okay, at least that's kinda hilarious.)
21:54:49 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: The other person commenting on it was FreeFull, incidentally. <--- aah, F<lower case>F<lower case> in both cases
21:55:15 <Vorpal> FireFly, so in practise it could have been you :P Very similar nick shape
21:55:54 <FireFly> Heh
21:56:17 <FreeFull> FireFly has one less letter
21:56:28 <Vorpal> sure, but apart from that, very similar
21:56:58 <Vorpal> FreeFull, anyway, I left the eclipse upgrade running, I finished just half an hour ago or something like that
21:57:03 <Vorpal> which is absurd
21:57:23 <Vorpal> looks like the eclipse mirror system is royally fucked up to me, "no mirrors found" it says now for me
21:57:36 <FireFly> I usually distinguish by nick length and nick colour. Not that the latter is very helpful in this case: http://i.imgur.com/t15X7.png
21:57:51 <Vorpal> I don't do coloured nicks
21:58:32 <Vorpal> ah now it started working again, (the mirror system)
22:01:25 <atriq> Agriculture has started
22:01:26 <FreeFull> I have all my nicks white
22:01:31 <FreeFull> On a black background
22:01:42 <FreeFull> Unless someone highlights me, then their nick is yellow on that line
22:01:45 <Vorpal> blue on a white background (using xchat atm)
22:02:02 <Vorpal> my own lines are grey, and highlights are red
22:02:10 <Vorpal> oh and the text is black
22:02:30 <Phantom_Hoover> yay, i got stonesense working
22:02:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never had any problems with that
22:02:55 <Vorpal> what were the issues?
22:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> dependencies, also forgetting to set the compile flag
22:03:18 <Vorpal> aah
22:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Currently I'm channelling out a massive tower thing.
22:09:10 <atriq> It is now summer
22:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, this fortress is already dying FPS death.
22:09:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is the cause?
22:09:55 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:09 <atriq> Try turning down your graphics settings?
22:10:15 <Vorpal> XD
22:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> also dfhack now has an ingame version of the dwarftherapist interface
22:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i cannot overstate its usefulness
22:11:16 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
22:13:27 <oerjan> FPS?
22:13:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dwarftherapist?
22:13:30 <Vorpal> what is that
22:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover> are you kidding me
22:15:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember using that tool
22:15:10 <Vorpal> what does it do
22:15:15 <Vorpal> is it some sort of cheating tool?
22:15:22 <Vorpal> I know a lot of dfhack is
22:15:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the one that makes managing labours actually possible
22:15:54 <Vorpal> oh that one, right
22:15:57 <Vorpal> yeah
22:16:03 <Vorpal> seen it
22:16:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: FPS death?
22:16:55 -!- Jafet has joined.
22:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, when the game grinds to a halt.
22:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> DF is extremely simulation-heavy.
22:18:47 <oerjan> oh.
22:24:34 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:25:00 <atriq> MIgrants!
22:32:50 <Arc_Koen> so, they travel from atlantis to that planet with an atlantis-like tower; they initiate a revolution there, and deplete de zpm that was powering everything
22:33:08 <Arc_Koen> leaving them defenseless from the wraith
22:33:33 <Arc_Koen> and in return for that "help" they take a lot of the drones and jumpers
22:34:33 <Arc_Koen> to make things better, sheppard gets to have sex with a girl by promising her he will marry her and they'll rule the planet together; then he dumps her and get back to atlantis (with his jumpers and drones)
22:35:19 <Arc_Koen> how the heck is that morally suitable for a stargate team??
22:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, btw i named a dorf after you
22:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> he's the fortress carpenter, doctor and secondary miner
22:36:11 <Gregor> And his name is Garry.
22:36:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover doesn't know oerjan's real name.
22:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> who wants to be the cook
22:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> wait no the cook will be garry
22:39:19 <atriq> Did I travel back in time and give you Palacecrushed?
22:39:21 <atriq> I hope so
22:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no
22:39:39 <atriq> Because then I will have a time machine
22:39:41 <atriq> Aww
22:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> this is matchedroad
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22:52:07 <oerjan> Dr. O. F
22:52:50 <Sgeo> atriq, Phantom_Hoover, you saw the latest update, right?
22:52:55 <Sgeo> With an [S]?
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22:54:09 <atriq> Yeah
22:54:19 <atriq> Apparently the local Gamzee cosplayer was upset
22:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i haven't!
22:54:57 <atriq> Go!
22:54:58 <atriq> Do!
22:55:00 <atriq> Run!
22:55:01 <atriq> Play!
22:55:03 <atriq> Attack!
22:55:05 <atriq> Defend!
22:55:10 <atriq> Tackle!
22:55:14 <atriq> Tail Whip!
22:55:20 * quintopia does all those thnigs to atriq
22:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> kinky
22:56:30 <atriq> Not again
22:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> matchedroad seems to have fallen into a state where nobody is actually doing their job because they're too busy doing work on the megaproject
22:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> largely because of this overspecialisation it is also the unhappiest peacetime fort i have ever run
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23:23:12 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: weeeeeell I just tried my interpreter against your fibonacci program and it began to print an infinity of 1s
23:25:09 <Arc_Koen> do you have more intel on whether that's because of your program or of my interpreter? (for instance do you have a simpler program?)
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23:29:29 <Arc_Koen> nevermind
23:29:34 <Sgeo> "Law of mathematics: any comprehensible math can be generalized to the point that it really f%*ks with your head."
23:29:36 <Phantom_Hoover> :/
23:30:02 <Bike> apply recursively, get cat theory?
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23:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was starting work on moving into the mighty Tower of Dorf when a goblin thief and a werecivet arrived in short succession
23:50:18 <oerjan> Bike: i'm sure it goes _way_ deeper than that.
23:50:37 <Bike> what goes way deeper than what
23:50:52 <oerjan> than cat theory.
23:51:00 <Bike> oh, probably
23:58:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Is that how it works? Are you sure?
23:58:37 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: I don't know which is wrong (maybe both are wrong).
23:59:56 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well mostly I made a mistake while copying it (I don't have a parser yet, so now it looks like [Pushn 0; Succ; Pushn 0; Store; Pushinf; Loop [Pushn 0; Fetch; Output; Pushn 0; Fetch; Pushn 0; Fetch; Pushn 0; Succ; Fetch; Loop [Succ]; Pushn 0; Store; Pushn 0; Succ; Store]]
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