←2012-12-02 2012-12-03 2012-12-04→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:03 <hagb4rd> not really no.. at least not for now
00:00:21 <oerjan> @hoogle f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:25 <elliott> you can just define an operator for it if you want
00:00:35 <oerjan> wrong function
00:00:38 <hagb4rd> yea
00:00:39 <elliott> with idiom brackets it'd be (| (a,b) |) :P
00:01:01 <shachaf> Would it really?
00:01:11 <elliott> something like that
00:02:09 <oerjan> @hoogle Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:02:09 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:53 <oerjan> zzo38 has been suggesting this function, i think :)
00:03:07 <oerjan> it's an alternative base function for applicatives
00:03:39 <zzo38> If you are doing applicative (not zip) then for f a -> f b -> f (a,b) you will have uncurry liftPair or liftA2 (,)
00:04:00 <oerjan> and more connected to the category theory way of looking at it.
00:04:02 <zzo38> I called it the liftPair which I think should be one of the class methods for Applicative
00:04:35 <hagb4rd> thx a lot
00:04:59 <oerjan> @hoogle (><)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Arbitrary (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad (><) :: (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> (a, c) -> (b, d)
00:05:41 <oerjan> >< is used, but not in a very basic library, i think
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01:23:42 <Arc_Koen> what
01:23:43 <Arc_Koen> what
01:23:56 <Arc_Koen> I just begin to watch the next stargate episode
01:24:07 <Arc_Koen> and it started by a "previously in stargate sg-1..."
01:24:09 <Arc_Koen> and
01:24:18 <Arc_Koen> WHAT THE HECK OF A SPOILER IS THAT THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT PREVIOUS
01:24:36 <Arc_Koen> cute ewoks coming out of everywhere
01:24:43 <Arc_Koen> weeee arrrre the fuuurrrrrlings
01:24:52 <Arc_Koen> daniel jackson: we finally get to meet you!
01:24:54 <oerjan> doing that for a time travel episode would be a mindscrew
01:24:57 <Arc_Koen> I THOUGHT THEY DIDN'T EXIST
01:25:03 <Arc_Koen> haha
01:25:11 <Arc_Koen> yeah it would
01:25:41 <Arc_Koen> I think there was a series called "stargate gravity" that was canceled very early because it was too much of a mindscrew
01:25:46 <Arc_Koen> ihavetofindthat
01:25:57 <Arc_Koen> anyway, back to episode *hoping it's a joke*
01:26:35 <Arc_Koen> .
01:26:43 <Arc_Koen> (it is)
01:33:57 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: regarding your last edit, if it's like haskell -rectypes is only needed when there is no named constructor between a type and its recursed appearance.
01:34:21 <oerjan> (well haskell doesn't have -rectypes, but that's when you get an error.)
01:34:36 <Bike> Arc_Koen: that episode was awesome.
01:35:46 <oerjan> value constructor, that is.
01:36:41 <oerjan> so if you removed _both_ "A of" and "B of", it would be needed, but having at least one of them is enough.
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01:46:57 <kmc> wine doesn't provide any isolation against malicious windows programs right
01:47:03 <kmc> like they can still execute native linux syscalls i think
01:48:10 <Bike> are you asking because your system has been compromised by a Fallout crack
01:49:04 <kmc> it hasn't been compromised yet ;)
01:49:49 <shachaf> Fallout for DOS, right?
01:50:06 <shachaf> kmc: What's with the dosbox and WINE thing?
01:52:07 <kmc> well you see
01:52:12 <kmc> i am excited about grand theft auto v
01:52:18 <kmc> coming out next year
01:52:26 <kmc> so i decided to play grand theft auto i in dosbox
01:52:31 <kmc> but i realized it sucks
01:52:43 <kmc> so now i am trying to play san andreas in wine
01:54:50 <kmc> great i'm supposed to get wine from multiarch now
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01:55:02 <shachaf> How do you get WINE in Debian anyway?
01:55:04 <kmc> i'm sure this will not in any way ruin my entire system and cause apt to segfault randomly like last time
01:55:10 <kmc> shachaf: the usual way?
01:55:57 <shachaf> Hmm.
01:56:09 <shachaf> At one point the package wasn't available in testing.
01:56:16 <shachaf> Even though it was in stable and unstable.
01:56:19 <shachaf> Looks like it's back.
01:56:28 <shachaf> I still get that issue occasionally with other packages.
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02:06:11 <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft
02:06:23 <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:06:51 <shachaf> Hmm, WINE ran Red Alert 3 better than Windows for me at one point.
02:07:01 <kmc> oh nice
02:07:09 <kmc> i guess i did run about half of deus ex too
02:07:12 <kmc> didn't totally work
02:07:28 <shachaf> It also ran a bunch of other things.
02:07:34 <shachaf> Diablo II worked well.
02:08:12 <oerjan> addquote <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:08:24 <HackEgo> 860) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:09:10 <Sgeo> Shattered Galaxy worked in WINE for me some years ago
02:09:21 <Sgeo> ...the UI looks like Starcraft, I think
02:09:59 <kmc> are you sure you weren't actually playing starcraft
02:10:35 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: hmm, right
02:10:43 <Sgeo> wtf I tried going to wine.appdb.com derp
02:11:05 <Arc_Koen> that seems like a very primitive way to recognize troublesome recursive types
02:11:18 <Sgeo> http://appdb.winehq.org/appimage.php?iId=12758
02:11:30 <Arc_Koen> especially for a language like Ocaml which is supposed to be good at that kind of stuff
02:11:57 <Arc_Koen> Bike: yeah it was great :)
02:12:03 <Arc_Koen> it didn't really have an ending though
02:12:11 <Arc_Koen> and it felt really really short
02:12:23 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing i've heard is that if you don't have that rule, you very often get things that type well if you leave out arguments
02:12:54 <Arc_Koen> can you rephrase?
02:13:00 <Arc_Koen> I'm notsure I understand
02:13:20 <oerjan> missing or extra arguments to functions often end up not giving type errors if you allow recursive types.
02:13:29 <Sgeo> Wait, does Starcraft look like that image? I've never actually played
02:13:39 <Arc_Koen> oh, right
02:13:57 <Arc_Koen> yes for instance with "('a -> 'a) as 'a"
02:14:00 <oerjan> yeah
02:15:08 <Arc_Koen> so it's not about preventing nonsensical data structures?
02:15:26 <oerjan> for haskell, they have newtype which always compiles as no extra overhead, so it's not _necessary_ to use recursive types for anything.
02:16:01 <Arc_Koen> for instance if you define type 'a endless = 'a * 'a endless
02:16:51 <oerjan> i guess it prevents nonsensical data structures too, although in haskell data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a) is a perfectly useful type for always infinite lists
02:17:30 <oerjan> and more or less the same as what you wrote, underneath
02:17:37 <Arc_Koen> # type a = a;;
02:17:37 <Arc_Koen> Error: The type abbreviation a is cyclic
02:17:38 <Arc_Koen> # type a = A of a;;
02:17:38 <Arc_Koen> type a = A of a
02:17:56 <Arc_Koen> soooooooooo not so useful after all
02:18:24 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait, it works
02:18:31 <Arc_Koen> let rec x = A x
02:19:47 <oerjan> yeah ocaml has special support for cyclic constants
02:20:34 <oerjan> :k Mu
02:20:36 <lambdabot> (* -> *) -> *
02:20:59 <oerjan> > fix (Mu . Identity)
02:21:01 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor Mu'
02:21:24 <oerjan> > fix (Fix . Identity)
02:21:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor Fix'
02:21:29 <shachaf> kmc: Is Starcraft good?
02:21:33 <shachaf> Are there any good RTSes? :-(
02:21:35 <oerjan> darn what was it called
02:22:07 <monqy> @type In
02:22:08 <lambdabot> f (Mu f) -> Mu f
02:22:16 <monqy> that?
02:22:18 <oerjan> oh right
02:22:24 <shachaf> @src Mu
02:22:24 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
02:22:34 <oerjan> > fix (In . Identity)
02:22:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show
02:22:35 <lambdabot> (Data.Functor.Identity.I...
02:22:36 <shachaf> @src Rec -- better??
02:22:36 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
02:22:41 <oerjan> bah
02:22:43 <shachaf> I guess not.
02:22:48 <oerjan> > fix (In . Just)
02:22:50 <lambdabot> In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (J...
02:23:17 <Sgeo> In?
02:23:20 <monqy> In.
02:23:21 <Sgeo> Oh
02:23:44 <shachaf> @ty InR
02:23:46 <lambdabot> (Rec a -> a) -> Rec a
02:23:51 <shachaf> better than In??
02:24:40 <oerjan> shachaf: not the same purpose
02:24:54 <shachaf> oerjan: "better" is a total ordering on all objects.
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02:25:34 <shachaf> For example, InR is better than In, and In is better than bell peppers
02:26:47 <oerjan> objects that think "better" is not a total ordering on all objects are better than objects that think "better" is a total ordering on all objects
02:27:18 <shachaf> Objects that don't think are better than both of those.
02:27:27 <zzo38> I think "better" is not even a partial ordering
02:27:38 <oerjan> also, i like bell peppers
02:27:51 <zzo38> I also think "better" is not always transitive.
02:28:04 <Sgeo> zzo38, is a computer that works not better than a broken computer?
02:28:13 <shachaf> Caltrain is not always transitive. :-(
02:28:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: depends. was it trying to kill you before it broke?
02:29:03 <zzo38> oerjan: Good point I suppose.
02:29:17 <zzo38> However, I meant is not *always* transitive; it is sometimes transitive.
02:31:25 <oerjan> if x <= y or y <= x always holds, then any three objects must have some transitivity among them.
02:32:46 <oerjan> (clarifying and then proving the above statement left as an exercise.)
02:34:33 <zzo38> Well, in a partial ordering and in a total ordering you would have if x<=y and y<=x and x=y. A partial ordering is the same as a thin category, isn't it?
02:35:08 <zzo38> (They may be different even though equal, I guess?)
02:35:18 <zzo38> Also, what is better than something else, also means, is better in what way?
02:37:40 <shachaf> @quote edwardk ieee
02:37:40 <lambdabot> edwardk says: type level ieee floats are a crime against nature. i had to implement them in c++ for template meta programming once. never ever again
02:37:45 <shachaf> kmc: See what you're missing?
02:38:20 <shachaf> Actually I've been getting more annoy{ed,ing} lately where #haskell is concerned.
02:38:37 <shachaf> The other day shapr told me I was being too negative.
02:40:53 <oerjan> shapr hasn't broken long ago?
02:40:57 <ion> shachaf is becoming kmc?
02:41:51 <zzo38> Maybe there should be that a instance can be designated "evil" which indicates that it is not completely mathematically correct, and that derived instances from evil instances also are called evil; for example, instances such as (Num Float) and so on have this designation. In case of optimization of mathematical laws (if any), they can be omitted.
02:42:22 <zzo38> So due to this it would apply also to (Monoid (Sum Double)) and so on since rounding errors can cause the result to be wrong.
02:48:54 <zzo38> Do you know of chess variant involving Scrabble tiles as the pieces? (There is the number in the corner, which can be used to tell which direction it is facing, if you like.)
02:54:44 <Arc_Koen> "how is it that you are alive when everyone else on the planet was killed?" "I was protected by this" *points at her necklace* *camera zooms in to display necklace + cleavage* ... *camera stays on cleavage* ... *camera still on cleavage*
02:55:18 <Bike> scifi.jpg
02:55:41 <zzo38> *camera won't move because now the camera men is killed too
02:55:50 <Arc_Koen> haha
02:56:39 <Arc_Koen> seriously the necklace thing is just there for fanservice
02:58:45 <Arc_Koen> you can't expect the lead female opposing character to die in the first scene just because of jewelry
03:02:18 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/97PdF.jpg
03:02:22 <Sgeo> (found on Reddit)
03:10:09 <oerjan> :t to
03:10:10 <lambdabot> Gettable f => (s -> a) -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
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03:16:19 <oerjan> :t over mapped
03:16:34 <oerjan> >_>
03:17:07 <shachaf> foo :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]; foo f xs = over mapped f xs is even compiled into foo = map!
03:18:14 <oerjan> > "hm..."
03:18:23 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
03:18:23 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
03:18:34 <oerjan> :(
03:18:38 <oerjan> :t over mapped
03:18:40 <shachaf> oerjan: I messed things up a little bit in the other channel.
03:18:46 <shachaf> 19:11 <shachaf> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
03:18:47 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
03:18:52 <shachaf> 19:13 <shachaf> "whoops"
03:19:16 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:19:29 <shachaf> oerjan: Isn't it great, though!
03:19:37 <oerjan> yay!
03:19:49 <shachaf> oerjan: There are a lot of unsafeCoerces in lens to make it happen.
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03:25:21 <oerjan> :t from
03:25:46 <oerjan> *chirp*
03:25:53 <shachaf> from
03:25:53 <shachaf> :: forall r.
03:25:53 <shachaf> Isomorphic r =>
03:25:53 <shachaf> Isomorphism (B r) (A r) (T r) (S r) -> r
03:26:01 <shachaf> bats
03:26:29 <oerjan> wtf
03:26:54 <shachaf> oerjan: We could sure use a nicer Iso. :-(
03:27:11 <Sgeo> It is becoming obvious that I don't understand delimited continuations as well as I thought
03:27:33 <oerjan> he said, before his brain exploded.
03:27:47 <elliott> shachaf: quote that and not the other one?
03:27:53 <elliott> the anon one
03:27:57 <Bike> of COURSE, if I just shift into four day cubic time then *boom*
03:27:58 <shachaf> elliott: ?
03:28:14 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I just gave the answer to oerjan's question.
03:28:20 <shachaf> anon
03:28:20 <shachaf> :: forall r.
03:28:20 <shachaf> (Isomorphic r, S r ~ Maybe (A r), T r ~ Maybe (A r), B r ~ A r) =>
03:28:20 <shachaf> A r -> (A r -> Bool) -> r
03:28:51 <oerjan> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
03:28:55 <shachaf> @Arr
03:28:57 <shachaf> @Arrr
03:29:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr yarr
03:29:22 <lambdabot> Aye Aye Cap'n
03:29:34 <monqy> what are S, T, A, B
03:29:40 <elliott> :t (^.)
03:29:48 <lambdabot> s -> Getting a s t a b -> a
03:29:56 <elliott> monqy: its what you get
03:30:09 <monqy> no thats s t a b
03:30:15 <monqy> a s t a b
03:30:20 <elliott> monqy: aren't you ready to get a s t a b.....
03:30:24 <monqy> this is S T A B...............................
03:30:29 <elliott> theyre type families
03:30:29 <shachaf> S = s
03:30:39 <shachaf> monqy: haskell = casein sensitive
03:31:10 <oerjan> shachaf: how cheesy
03:31:30 <shachaf> OK, fine.
03:31:33 <shachaf> That's a lie. :-(
03:32:32 <oerjan> in fact haskell pays no attention to cheese at all
03:32:57 <shachaf> Depends on the cheese.
03:33:21 <shachaf> oerjan: You know the thing that's called "bulgarian cheese" in Hebrew?
03:33:28 <oerjan> ...no.
03:33:36 <monqy> elliott: why would people name their type families S T A B
03:34:00 <shachaf> monqy: elliott just got startled
03:34:02 <oerjan> monqy: it's a very dysfunctional family
03:34:11 <elliott> monqy: some people know no taste. sooner or later they'll be getting a s t a b
03:34:23 <monqy> shachaf: do you know ?
03:34:30 <shachaf> monqy: know what
03:34:35 <monqy> why its S T A B
03:34:54 <shachaf> oh
03:35:00 <shachaf> S is a reference to s
03:35:03 <shachaf> T is a reference to t
03:35:07 <shachaf> A is a reference to a
03:35:11 <shachaf> B is a reference to c
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03:35:30 <monqy> help :(
03:35:54 <oerjan> obvyusly
03:35:56 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S; type T; type A; type B
03:36:07 <shachaf> "um....."
03:36:13 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S r; type T r; type A r; type B r
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicA (x :: *) :: *
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicB (x :: *) :: *
03:36:38 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicF (x :: *) :: * -> *
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicA (a -> f_b) = a
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicB (a -> f b) = b
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicF (a -> f b) = f
03:36:52 <shachaf> instance (Functor f, x ~ (a -> f b), y ~ (s -> f t)) => Isomorphic (x -> y) where type S (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA y type T (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB y type A (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA x type B (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB x iso sa bt afb s = bt <$> afb (sa s) 03:37:08 <Bike> glad we got that cleared up. 03:37:09 <oerjan> i think shachaf is going critical. RUN! 03:37:34 <shachaf> oerjan: "don't worry it's constructive criticism" 03:37:45 <shachaf> quote critcism 03:37:49 <HackEgo> No output. 03:37:50 <shachaf> quote criticism 03:37:54 <HackEgo> 175) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/ \ 720) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive. 03:38:00 <shachaf> imo 720 03:38:44 <oerjan> international mathematics olympiad 720 03:39:03 <oerjan> *al 03:39:17 <shachaf> olympial 03:39:33 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSalienandpredat 03:39:42 <shachaf> It's a very good URL. 03:39:49 <zzo38> Do you like my other symmetric variants too? 03:39:51 <shachaf> It has almost all the components. 03:40:02 <shachaf> Variants? 03:40:12 <oerjan> microsoft aliens sound scary 03:40:13 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't mean the URL; I mean the game written by the rules described on that HTML page. 03:40:21 <shachaf> What page? 03:40:22 <shachaf> Oh! 03:40:28 <shachaf> You want me to send an HTTP GET request. 03:40:31 <shachaf> I get it now. 03:40:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I think "MS" stands for "member submission". 03:40:37 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. 03:40:50 <oerjan> oh it was submitted by alien members, ok 03:42:04 <shachaf> monqy: you should take the bus to san francisco 03:42:06 <shachaf>$1!
03:42:09 <zzo38> Other games I made which is symmetric variant of asymmetric game, is: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MStworingchess http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricsnark http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricmonst
03:42:26 <shachaf> Microsoft symmetric snark?
03:42:49 <oerjan> shachaf: it's what happens when their tech support goes _really_ wrong
03:44:26 <shachaf> zzo38: btw asymmetric ≻ symmetric
03:48:18 <kmc> ok i got GTA San Andreas to run in Wine
03:48:54 <zzo38> I have also, in comments on other pages, proposed symmetric variant of Angels and Devils.
03:49:16 <kmc> it works pretty well except that the world is filled with huge flickering multicolored polygons, and every object casts a trail of flame against the sky
03:49:26 <kmc> so i'm just going to play as if my character is tripping on acid
03:50:14 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know conal lives in San Andreas?
03:50:32 <kmc> maybe
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03:51:00 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't that how you play "real life" too?
03:52:42 <kmc> not really
04:01:31 <elliott> kmc isn't real.
04:02:00 <elliott> kmc: should I learn Agda
04:02:40 <kmc> yeah
04:02:57 <zzo38> There are different definitions of "astrological age" which is not agreed on. As far as I know two is possible: [1] The constellation of the vernal equinox point. [2] The negative of ayanamsha. In the second case, you have to know what the reference date is!
04:03:06 <oerjan> elliott: wait, you haven't already?
04:03:08 <shachaf> I thought Agda was just Haskell with fancy types and ":" instead of "::".
04:03:31 <elliott> oerjan: well I "know" it
04:03:41 <elliott> oerjan: i can't read their freaky unicode proofs
04:03:53 <elliott> (have you seen them)
04:04:22 <oerjan> i ... am not sure.
04:04:42 <zzo38> Agda is also require Unicode.
04:04:48 <zzo38> I don't like that.
04:04:57 <elliott> actually agda does not require unicode at all
04:05:17 <shachaf> The worse part is that you have to use Emacs. :-(
04:05:24 <shachaf> (It's actually not that bad.)
04:06:53 <zzo38> Haskell does not require Unicode, but it does supports it. Some libraries do have names only using non-ASCII, and GHC has no way to enter the name using Punycode or something like that!
04:07:11 <elliott> agda does not require unicode
04:07:21 <elliott> shachaf: do you know of any agda-mode docs
04:07:33 <shachaf> elliott: Yes.
04:07:39 <shachaf> C-h C-something
04:07:50 <elliott> that's not good docs
04:07:57 <elliott> :(
04:08:13 <shachaf> They're not terrible either.
04:08:13 <Bike> try C-h m to get the mode's online documentation.
04:08:23 <shachaf> "online documentation"
04:08:29 <elliott> Bike: It's useless.
04:08:33 <elliott> Bike: Also, "online documentation", really.
04:08:43 <Bike> shrug.
04:08:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you use emacs for anything else?
04:08:55 <elliott> yes
04:08:56 <elliott> sometime
04:08:56 <elliott> s
04:09:28 <shachaf> You just have to know Emacs.
04:09:47 <shachaf> elliott: btw colenses are pretty cool right??
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04:09:57 <shachaf> I'm kind of annoyed at how ugly Isomorphic etc. are.
04:09:59 <elliott> shachaf: yo is there something like http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/listings/lib/Category.Functor.html in the stdlib but that encodes the laws
04:10:02 <elliott> or do i gotta write this shit mysel
04:10:03 <elliott> f
04:10:04 <shachaf> welcome epicmonkey
04:10:07 <HackEgo> epicmonkey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:10:09 <kmc> http://blog.opensourcenerd.com/i-can-haz-virus this person seems to have some serious misunderstandings about what wine does and doesn't provide
04:10:39 <zzo38> They should add a pragma in GHC to allow you to write the names in ASCII, by specifying the quoted string of the Unicode name, and the unquoted name in ASCII; the first letter/symbol must have the same case. It also allow to specify alternative names for constructors, even if it is already ASCII.
04:10:45 <kmc> also lol @ the many commenters who think the difference between user account and root on a linux desktop is super important
04:11:19 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/copumpkin/categories/blob/master/Categories/Functor/Core.agda
04:11:44 <elliott> shachaf: I... don't want to use that.
04:11:52 <kmc> that is a really pervasive bit of cargo cult security
04:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: Good thinking.
04:12:02 <kmc> it took me many years to realize how wrong it is
04:12:13 <elliott> how do i type the fancy l
04:12:14 <elliott> for levels
04:12:46 <monqy> "\ell"
04:13:05 <monqy> i forget how emacs/agda-mode does its thing
04:14:44 <shachaf> ℓ?
04:14:50 <shachaf> What does that mean?
04:15:42 <elliott> yeah that one
04:15:45 <elliott> oh \ell works
04:15:54 <elliott> shachaf: does cabal install agda get me the stdlib
04:15:57 <elliott> or do i have to do my own stuff
04:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: I think it works?
04:16:17 <shachaf> elliott: "try it out"
04:16:27 <shachaf> elliott: Also you didn't answer my question.
04:17:14 <elliott> what
04:17:18 <shachaf> what
04:18:31 <zzo38> Is there any 3D modeling that you can write x^2+y^2+z^2=25 and it will work?
04:19:28 <elliott> what's the composition law for functors called
04:20:56 <zzo38> I don't know if it is called anything other than a composition law for functors.
04:21:46 <elliott> shachaf: It doesn't find the stdlib.
04:23:21 <shachaf> elliott: Try apt-get install agda
04:23:30 <shachaf> apt-get install agda-stdlib
04:24:06 <elliott> -- my computer dot com
04:24:12 <zzo38> The "wgpluck" command in Csound seem to be good quality of plucked string sounds.
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04:41:00 <zzo38> Do you have reverb files for Stonehenge?
04:52:46 <ion> Are there samples of wgpluck somewhere?
04:54:09 <zzo38> ion: I don't know of any, but if you have Csound you can use the examples in http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/wgpluck.html
04:54:22 <zzo38> You can use it with real-time or you can send output to a sound file if you want that.
04:55:30 <zzo38> I also find using "wguide1" with PhISEM opcodes makes a nice sound too (although not a plucked string sound)
04:59:13 <ion> alright
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05:01:35 <zzo38> ion: Do you need samples of Csound?
05:01:58 <ion> I already installed it and listened to them.
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05:26:24 <shachaf> score
05:26:26 <shachaf> -------
05:26:29 <shachaf> elliott
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06:23:51 <elliott> kmc: More like #messoteric, right?
06:24:12 <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
06:24:24 <elliott> @ask monqy <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
06:24:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:24:47 <shachaf> :'(
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06:38:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | /topic: the new way to chat | How arre you? | *-r.
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07:06:02 -!- elliott has set topic: MEGA EXTRA SUPER FOREVER | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:06:14 -!- elliott has set topic: qqqqq | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:22:51 <ion> I disagree with your chosen amount of Qs.
07:23:23 -!- shachaf has set topic: @ask monqy http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:24:47 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:28:24 <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:28:39 <fizzie> I'm just not getting usd to this.
07:29:13 <olsner> Getting used to being a train may be difficult, but with the right attitude you can!
07:29:43 <fizzie> At least it gives me consolation that the connection is terribly laggy.
07:29:46 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:29:47 <olsner> getting USD for being a train may be even more difficult
07:30:32 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know, you could rent yourself out to someone who needs a train for \$ars.
07:30:56 <olsner> as I understand it, the money doesn't go to the train but usually to the owner of the train
07:31:25 <fizzie> So... that would conventionally be my wife, I guess?
07:32:05 <elliott> addquote <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:16 <HackEgo> 861) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:29 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trains_owned_by_wifes
07:32:35 <elliott> "wives", olsner
07:33:12 <olsner> indeed
07:33:13 <fizzie> Oh, the train is also going to Turku, city of oklopol. I think.
07:33:28 <elliott> are you going to meet oklopol
07:34:26 <fizzie> I hope not, I'm not sure I'm prepared for that.
07:34:39 <elliott> how can you pass up the opportunity
07:34:43 <fizzie> I will be around what I think is his university, though.
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07:37:50 <fizzie> Oh no, this is stupid. I have this bluetooth headset that can be used as a regular headset with a cable, but when the battery is completely out (like now) it won't switch to the regular-headset mode.
07:38:18 <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:38:57 <elliott> oklofok: ping
07:38:58 <elliott> oklofok: ping ping ping
07:39:01 <elliott> oklofok: emergency
07:39:04 <elliott> oklofok: you have to meet fizzie
07:39:10 <elliott> oklofok: travel to nearest train station
07:39:23 <elliott> oh right i wanted to addquote that
07:39:26 <fizzie> Look for a fizzie-shaped train?
07:39:31 <elliott> addquote <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
07:39:34 <HackEgo> 862) <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:50:37 <Sgeo|web> "SCP-411 speaks an as-yet-unknown dialect of English that has significant grammatical and vocabulary deviations from Modern English. Individuals who are to be given training in this language will benefit from a background in Spanish, Mandarin and/or Cantonese, ██████ and Haskell."
07:50:57 <Bike> that entry made me chuckle
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07:51:41 <Sgeo|web> Oh, I wasn't able to do the thing where I say monqy elliott
07:51:58 <monqy> i forgive you
07:53:12 <coppro> damn, I should have beat you :P
07:54:08 <coppro> quote
07:54:11 <HackEgo> 158) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
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08:01:59 <ion> fizzie: mosh
08:06:25 <fizzie> ion: Bish bosh.
08:11:17 <coppro> quote
08:11:28 <HackEgo> 488) <Phantom_Hoover> On further reflection, I think I did manage to miss winter and spring altogether. <Phantom_Hoover> This does explain the goblin siege I had in autumn.
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08:18:13 <elliott> ion: I think you are insufficiently agile.
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10:02:43 <Sgeo|MOG11111> elliott: Phantom_Hoover monqy
10:02:47 <Sgeo|MOG11111> Fiora:
10:02:53 <elliott> mog11111
10:03:24 <monqy> MOG11111, excuse you
10:04:31 <elliott> im sorry
10:05:12 <Sgeo|MOG11111> Well, I didn't think a nick of Sgeo|MOG!!!!! would work
10:05:18 <shachaf> oh no it's monqy
10:05:20 <shachaf> hi monqy
10:05:31 <monqy> hi shachaf
10:05:35 <shachaf> monqy: have you ever read the ghc inliner
10:05:53 <shachaf> monqy: do you know what main:Foo.Foo{v reR} means!
10:06:40 <shachaf> Oh, I finally got my verbose output!
10:07:02 <shachaf> Considering inlining: main:Foo.Foo{v reR} [gid[DataConWrapper]] arg infos [] uf arity 0 interesting continuation ArgCtxt False some_benefit False is exp: True is work-free: True guidance ALWAYS_IF(unsat_ok=True,boring_ok=True) ANSWER = YES
10:07:54 <monqy> ok
10:09:05 <shachaf> monqy: yes or no
10:09:21 <shachaf> if you were ghc you would say ANSWER = YES
10:09:25 <shachaf> or ANSWER = NO
10:09:58 <monqy> i dddont know
10:17:11 <ion> Also if you’re prolog.
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10:35:22 -!- oklopol has changed nick to xD.
10:35:49 <xD> everything is so funny i decided this will save my time
10:35:52 -!- xD has changed nick to Guest7699.
10:35:59 <Guest7699> krhm
10:36:06 <Guest7699> what :D
10:36:08 -!- Guest7699 has changed nick to oklopol.
10:36:10 <elliott> Guest7699: fizzie is coming to yr town
10:36:13 <elliott> go meet him
10:36:30 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
10:36:31 <oklopol> -
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- You have 30 seconds to identify to your nickname before it is changed.
10:36:31 <oklopol> -
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:39] -NickServ- You failed to identify in time for the nickname Xd
10:36:32 <oklopol> oh.
10:37:05 <oklopol> he is?
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10:37:37 <elliott> yes
10:37:40 <elliott> he may even be there right now
10:37:41 <atriq> Yes indeed
10:38:03 <oklopol> fizzie: where should we meet?
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10:39:58 <atriq> I'm kind of bored of being atriq
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10:45:28 <Taneb> Aaargh
10:50:40 <shachaf> whoami
10:50:44 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
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10:50:47 <shachaf> id -a
10:50:51 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=873786
10:50:54 <shachaf> id -a
10:51:00 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=787581
10:51:02 <shachaf> Pft. Why can't we be root?
10:51:43 <Deewiant> id -G
10:51:46 <HackEgo> 736514
10:52:03 <Deewiant> id -Z
10:52:06 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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11:15:29 <atriq> How is the topic link doing that
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11:16:28 <Deewiant> Doing what
11:16:48 <Taneb> If I click it and say open in browser, it goes to http://xn--cdu-sed.org/logs/_esoteric/
11:17:18 <Deewiant> The 'o' is cyrillic
11:17:25 <Deewiant> U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
11:17:32 <Taneb> Wow, crazy
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12:06:39 <elliott> ais523: any idea what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=OISC&curid=1012&diff=34930&oldid=33316?
12:07:08 <elliott> not sure the link actually is relevant -- I can't tell what it's on about and certainly it is in the wrong section -- but the commentless removal is a bit odd
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12:15:43 <fizzie> What is this about meeting people. :/
12:16:04 <fizzie> I am at the ICT building, I think I'll be mostly in hiding.
12:17:06 <elliott> oklopol: fizzie is at the ICT building
12:17:08 <elliott> go meet him
12:17:43 <fizzie> "Seppo Pulkkinen, Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Turku" is this guy from your guys?
12:17:53 <fizzie> He's talking about something.
12:18:39 <fizzie> I'll be here in this thing until 18 and my train away leaves Kupittaa at 19, so there.
12:19:15 <elliott> oklopol: THERE'S NOT MUCH TIME
12:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott did you do that thing
12:22:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I AM BUSY ORGANISING A MEETING OF FINNS
12:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> you can run worldgen in the background while doing that!
12:23:25 <elliott> Without fully devoting my attention to it????
12:23:27 <elliott> That would be sloppy
12:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's worldgen man, you just watch 3 numbers increment at an ever-slower rate
12:24:55 <elliott> This is why you are hopeless Phantom_Hoover
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12:38:26 <Sgeo|MOG11111> What is sleep?
12:39:04 <elliott> what is MOG11111
12:39:38 <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies
12:40:21 <monqy> yes
12:42:08 <nortti> sleep is what happens when you have too much blood in your caffeine circulation
12:42:31 <monqy> that's kinda gross nortti
12:42:46 <nortti> in what way?
12:43:07 <monqy> blood in my caffeine??gross
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12:52:35 <Taneb> Just caused some nostalgia
12:52:44 <monqy> hi
12:54:34 <nortti> how?
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12:56:14 <Taneb> Reminded a couple of people of something they were planning to make years ago
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13:43:21 <oklopol> fizzie: seppo works in the same tiny building as me
13:43:26 <oklopol> i've never talked to him
13:43:45 <oklopol> waaaait
13:43:48 <oklopol> different seppo :D
13:44:24 <oklopol> oh okay
13:44:26 <oklopol> same seppo
13:47:13 <elliott> oklopol: go go go
13:47:22 <elliott> you have to get to the ICT building!!!
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13:47:42 <nooga> blorgh
13:47:48 <oklopol> maybe next time
13:48:51 <nooga> where's the topic?
13:49:00 <elliott> oklopol: wtf
13:49:08 <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!!
13:49:16 <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever
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13:50:23 <fizzie> This Seppo is talking about "Optimization Algorithms for Large-Scale and Robust Dimensionality Reduction" soon.
13:50:54 <fizzie> I think it's going to involve numbers.
13:51:32 <elliott> oklopol: RUN
13:51:50 <fizzie> RUN AWAY
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14:01:51 <elliott> ais523: you have to convince oklopol to travel a short distance to see fizzie, right now
14:04:15 <fizzie> And fizzie to not run away and hide from the impending oklopol.
14:05:47 <elliott> oklopol: in fact
14:05:57 <elliott> oklopol: i'll pay you 30 pounds gbp to go do it
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14:07:17 <oklopol> :D
14:07:48 <oklopol> sorry i have works to do :(
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14:17:30 <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance
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15:46:40 <Taneb> It's quiet here
15:48:57 <elliott> gu
15:48:59 <elliott> hi
15:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> hi
15:50:36 <ais523_> hi
15:50:44 <ais523_> remember oracle versus google?
15:51:03 <ais523_> I, umm, may have paraphrased the spec for rangeCheck and set it as an exercise for a bunch of first years
15:52:34 <ais523_> around half of them got it exactly on spec, which is less than I expected
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16:26:57 <oklofok> so i didn't meet FireFly
16:26:58 <oklofok> erm
16:27:01 <oklofok> fizzie:
16:27:03 <oklofok> erm
16:27:06 <oklofok> fizzie
16:27:16 <oklofok> but i met seppo on his way back from the thingie
16:28:20 <Gregor> Oh seppo. And the thingie. Ha ha ha, I'm participating.
16:35:04 <ais523_> what thingie?
16:42:56 <ais523_> suggested type for an esolang: int™
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16:58:55 <fizzie> oklofok: It's all right, I kind of had to go eat with the Hatutus folks.
16:59:15 <oklofok> what's hatututs
16:59:17 <oklofok> hatutus
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16:59:18 <fizzie> Though now my 19:06 train has been delayed to 19:24.
16:59:30 <fizzie> Pattern recognition research society.
16:59:43 <fizzie> Hahmontunnistustutkimuksen seura.
17:00:04 <fizzie> It was our twice-a-year meeting/seminar that I was here for.
17:01:40 -!- truckngear06 has joined.
17:01:59 <truckngear06> whats up
17:02:16 <ais523_> hmm
17:02:19 <ais523_> do I recognise you?
17:02:26 <truckngear06> no sir
17:02:32 <ais523_> welcome truckngear06
17:02:36 <HackEgo> truckngear06: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:02:36 <truckngear06> ty
17:02:38 <truckngear06> can u see my ip ?
17:02:42 <ais523_> wow, HackEgo was fast that time
17:02:54 <ais523_> and yes, 24.231.195.104, or possibly 104.195.231.24
17:03:02 <truckngear06> just wondering
17:03:43 <ais523_> connecting anywhere on the internet sends your IP to the site you connect to
17:04:26 <truckngear06> yup
17:05:14 <truckngear06> who plays black ops 2
17:05:19 <truckngear06> xbox 360
17:06:30 <oklofok> fizzie: do you know seppo?
17:07:02 <fizzie> oklofok: No, I just listened to his talk.
17:07:14 <truckngear06> cya gonna play some black ops
17:07:15 <oklofok> was it awesome
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17:10:58 <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
17:11:18 <oklofok> what's that thing
17:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> is he the last of his people
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> are his people fools with no vision of the future
17:12:32 <fizzie> oklofok: It was the optimization problem related to this maximum-variance based dimensionality reduction method that works well if there's an underlying low-dimensional description for the points of the high-dimensional dataset.
17:13:07 <fizzie> Also there was a thing about doing it well even if the data is a bit noisy and not strictly on the low-dimensional thing.
17:13:15 <oklofok> i see
17:13:49 <fizzie> Based on projecting it onto a thing formed by ridges of the density function of the data set.
17:14:14 <ais523_> hmm, that channel join was weird
17:14:28 <ais523_> we get people like that in #nethack sometimes, mislead by the name
17:14:30 <ais523_> but #esoteric?
17:14:56 <fizzie> Oh no, battery low.
17:15:06 <fizzie> There was electricity just a moment ago.
17:15:23 <fizzie> I suspect this phone is "acting up" occasionally.
17:15:44 <fizzie> Oh well, I'll just wait until the train gets here. ->
17:15:53 <fizzie> Oh, now it's 19:34.
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17:29:12 <kmc> yeah #hackage got some of those too :)
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17:53:35 <fizzie> Bleh. Left 19:49, 43 minutes late. Is this the famed Finnish punctuality? (Okay, there is no such thing.)
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18:11:27 <FreeFull> fizzie: So if you have a set of 4D points
18:11:51 <FreeFull> But the fourth coordinate is just random quantised noise between -0.5 and 0.5
18:11:56 <FreeFull> Is it going to work well?
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18:15:42 <fizzie> FreeFull: Don't ask me, ask Seppo. Maybe it will. That kind of thing *is* one of the common types of toy data; many methods do suppress that sort of thing pretty well.
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18:39:23 <olsner> fizzie: did you meet oklofok?
18:40:38 <fizzie> olsner: I did not.
18:40:58 <fizzie> Such a loss for the advancement of the human race &c.
18:41:48 <oklofok> :'(
18:42:02 <olsner> a day of mourning for all of oklokind
18:45:06 <fizzie> "This is not a national day of mourning in Helsinki, Finland's capital -- these are Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no-one but themselves."
18:45:25 <nortti> :D
18:45:44 <nortti> tht sound about right
18:46:43 <fizzie> So started a "60 minutes" (US TV show) segment about tango's popularity in Finland.
18:46:53 <fizzie> It was apparently considered quite rude.
18:47:06 <nortti> strange
18:47:19 <fizzie> The visuals were random clips from Helsinki streets.
18:49:23 <arcatan> tango is rude?
18:49:39 <fizzie> No the show was rude.
18:49:47 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure if early morning commuters (especially in bad weather) tend to look all that happy anywhere.
18:49:55 <fizzie> Or at least manywhere.
18:50:03 <olsner> manywhere, nice word
18:50:32 <fizzie> It's like "anywhere" except not meaning quite all the places, just many of them.
18:51:49 <oklofok> not all finns like the antisocial stereotype?
18:51:52 -!- Bike has joined.
18:52:06 <nortti> yes
18:52:11 <oklofok> don't we have like the best one there is
18:52:17 <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification
18:52:47 <olsner> maybe there should also be a 'fewwhere'
18:53:35 <fizzie> oklofok: As I understood it, the show was just considered taking the thing too far. But I'unno.
18:54:06 <fizzie> What.
18:54:17 <olsner> thigh quality!
18:54:22 <fizzie> You stupid piece of stupidest stupidity.
18:54:38 <fizzie> I hadn't highlighted the initial "T" so I typed it myself.
18:54:48 <oklofok> i don't get it, it's not even racist because most finns are white
18:56:20 <oklofok> also do i need to register
18:56:31 <fizzie> Well, feel free to peruse the link, if you want to visit a page which programmatically ejaculates stupidity all over a copy-paste.
18:57:14 <fizzie> I didn't need to.
18:57:29 <fizzie> Apparently there is a "8 free articles per month" thing.
18:57:48 <fizzie> So be careful about wasting one of your valuable free articles for *that*.
18:58:16 <fizzie> "The report goes on to say that the prescriptive tango dance sessions, with their set times when men can ask women to dance or the other way around, are perfect for shy Finns and that the lessons and dances give them a “licence to touch” one another."
18:58:28 <fizzie> There you go, that's what I wanted to paste.
18:58:53 <fizzie> I pasted it ALL OVER. All over the Internet. It's probably in dozens of places now.
18:59:05 <fizzie> How do you like that, FT?
19:00:29 <fizzie> This train, it is exactly an hour late.
19:01:24 <fizzie> The next TurkufHelsinki train was supposed to leave an hour after this one, I wonder if it's right behind there.
19:01:34 <fizzie> TurkufHelsinki. Yes.
19:03:11 <oklofok> yes.
19:03:47 <oklofok> also 8 whole articles? that's huge
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19:15:24 <AnotherTest> Hello
19:15:28 <nortti> hi
19:15:38 <AnotherTest> No more topic :(
19:15:51 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :(.
19:15:59 <fizzie> Maybe it's just invisible.
19:16:06 <fizzie> Oh, now it's not.
19:16:17 <AnotherTest> Yay! I'm in the topic.
19:16:27 <olsner> but there is no link to the logs now!
19:17:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :(.
19:18:14 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :( | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:18:35 -!- olsner has set topic: No more :(.
19:18:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail.
19:19:04 <nortti> :D
19:20:30 <kmc> gobble gobble
19:20:33 <nortti> how did you get so legit url?
19:20:57 <nortti> ah
19:23:16 <Gregor> ... two people in the cubes next to me are arguing about using oil vs butter in brownies X_X
19:24:07 <olsner> if brownies is similar to what I think it is similar to, oil doesn't work
19:25:37 <fizzie> What about oil v. butten in ponies?
19:25:41 <fizzie> Butten.
19:25:46 <fizzie> Butten butten.
19:25:53 <Gregor> fizzie: You sick, sick fuck.
19:26:01 <olsner> derfinertly butten
19:26:13 <Gregor> CLICK THE PONY BUTTON
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20:54:07 <oerjan> <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies <-- i suggest not trying that with me.
20:55:57 <oerjan> <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!! <-- has anyone on this channel ever successfully met oklopol?
20:56:37 <fizzie> I think oklofok has.
20:56:54 <oerjan> fellow clones don't count, fizzie
20:57:33 <oerjan> <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever <-- oh.
20:57:40 <olsner> maybe we should all go visit oklopol at the same time some time
20:57:51 * c00kiemon5ter om nom ? :(
20:58:01 <olsner> ... and get murdered by his 15 clones
20:58:52 <oerjan> c00kiemon5ter: (1) i don't sleep at sane times (2) i have no cookies afaik. (although there is milk chocolate.)
20:59:09 <fizzie> I've technically met some #esoteric people; mooz, ineiros, and sort of unidirectionally Deewiant in that he's seen me several times but I still don't know what he looks like.
20:59:14 <oerjan> (1)(*) except by accident
20:59:47 <olsner> if you count "technically", maybe you'd have to count IRC and that's boring
21:01:00 <fizzie> The first two are "technically" in the "#esoteric people" aspect (mooz hasn't been here in a long time, ineiros is mute) while the last is "technically" in the "meet" aspect.
21:01:56 <oerjan> i must have met [[User:Rune]] from the wiki at some time, although this was surely before #esoteric existed.
21:02:01 <fizzie> fungot: Have you met any of the people here?
21:02:01 <fungot> fizzie: later tell sjamaan also, the convention of returning the offset. i normally do that, though
21:02:14 <arcatan> i've met some of the guys here before joining this channel. hmm.
21:02:22 <fizzie> I think shachaf and kmc have met.
21:02:43 <fizzie> At least it's the sort of "vibe" I've gotten from there.
21:02:53 <fizzie> Wink, wink.
21:03:44 <olsner> oh, shachaf and kmc have a vibe? good for them!
21:03:46 <arcatan> "unidirectionally meeting people" is a great term
21:04:28 <fizzie> I suppose it doesn't really count as a "#esoteric meet" unless the meeting happens first on-channel and only later in real life, possibly even with a causal relationship to the on-channel meeting.
21:05:06 <oerjan> fizzie: my chances are truly slim, then.
21:05:24 <fizzie> Since there's a connotation of the channel having brought the people involved together.
21:06:53 <Arc_Koen> well what if they first met irl but it didn't work out and then they met again on the channel and realized how much they shared
21:07:23 <oerjan> very romantic!
21:07:52 <Deewiant> I think I've met arcatan.
21:08:30 <arcatan> yeah, we've met
21:08:53 <arcatan> I've also met Lumpio- and nortti, and unidirectionally met at least atehwa
21:09:03 <shachaf> fizzie: Are you sure you're not thinking of HackEgo?
21:09:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:09:12 -!- boily has joined.
21:09:30 <Lumpio-> 8)
21:09:53 <oerjan> <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance <-- it would provide nearly incontrovertible proof that the people on #esoteric are not just figments of imagination!
21:10:12 <fizzie> Is arcatan some kind of a Finn too? I mean, that's a very suspicious list.
21:10:29 <shachaf> Hm, I've met at least four people in this channel.
21:10:31 <arcatan> the programming kind
21:10:33 <oerjan> fizzie: /whois corroborates that
21:10:47 <shachaf> Not including myself and lambdabot.
21:10:47 <Lumpio-> ? finland
21:10:59 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
21:12:00 <oerjan> /whois corun show up a not-very-finnish looking whowas
21:12:03 <oerjan> *s
21:12:33 <olsner> you don't have to be finnish to drive the bus
21:12:35 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, no one said that sentence has anything to do with the preceding two. Corun drives the bus.
21:12:47 <Lumpio-> Which bus
21:13:01 <oerjan> shachaf: AAAA
21:13:04 <olsner> Lumpio-: the bus that Corun drives
21:13:06 <Lumpio-> The usual interpretation of that would be the Corun drives the bus of Finland (yes, *the* bus)
21:13:10 <oerjan> i was assuming the finnish bus.
21:13:13 <monqy> why would you need multiple buses for a country with only two people
21:13:24 <monqy> silly question.........................
21:13:33 <olsner> especially when 9 of them are on IRC and don't need bussing around in the first place
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21:15:46 <shachaf> monqy: to get from one end of the country to the other??
21:15:57 <shachaf> monqy: use logic next time ok
21:17:12 <oerjan> <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
21:17:30 <oerjan> i get this vibe fizzie is becoming more similar to fungot, in that dog/owner sense
21:17:31 <fungot> oerjan: richard stallman, fnord, desolation, and fnord is on the eso forum to demonstrate.
21:17:33 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:17:53 <oerjan> less fnords, i guess
21:17:57 <oerjan> *fewer
21:19:12 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:19:21 <nooga> that's tartan
21:19:46 <oerjan> that's plaid to see
21:20:02 <fizzie> I am not like fungot! The whole idea is ludicrous. That sword alone can't stop.
21:20:03 <fungot> fizzie: ccnum.scm released. http://www.neilvandyke.org/ weblog/". tell me if astyle works on fnord
21:20:38 <oerjan> ...i cannot addquote a conversation including me, can i?
21:20:43 <oerjan> *may not
21:21:08 <Gregor> Nothing's stopping you, but if you do, you'll be killed and fed to starving children.
21:21:15 <oerjan> ooh
21:21:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:21:21 <Gregor> So all said and done it's a good deed.
21:21:24 -!- boily has joined.
21:21:59 <oerjan> very tempting, then
21:22:25 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:22:43 <nooga> 22:07 < oerjan> very romantic!
21:22:44 <nooga> 22:21 < oerjan> very tempting, then
21:22:46 <kmc> yes shachaf and i have met irl
21:22:49 <nooga> i see a pattern here
21:22:56 <kmc> once at boston python and once at the stripe ctf meetup in sf
21:22:59 <kmc> and maybe another time
21:23:07 <kmc> we are more awkward in person
21:23:09 <oerjan> nooga: is it plaid?
21:23:16 <nooga> very plaid!
21:23:35 <arcatan> hey, does anyone know about a programming language based on minimization? like the µ operator for µ-recursive functions
21:23:57 <nooga> or
21:24:02 <nooga> well plaid, oerjan
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21:30:21 <oerjan> <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification <-- maybe, but recall that scandinavian languages don't have distinct words for english "some" and "any"
21:31:26 <shachaf> @where any
21:31:27 <lambdabot> I know nothing about any.
21:31:31 <shachaf> @google trebla any all some
21:31:33 <lambdabot> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/any-all-some.html
21:31:33 <lambdabot> Title: Any, For All, Exists
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21:42:01 <oerjan> back to your old atriq
21:42:10 <atriq> Different computer
21:42:15 <atriq> Different settings
21:42:29 -!- atriq has changed nick to Ngevd.
21:42:31 <fizzie> If you order a klein bottle shipped via USPS/UPS/DHL/whatever, will the tracking page say "volume: 0"?
21:42:45 <Ngevd> fizzie, if it's not in a box
21:42:45 <lambdabot> Ngevd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:42:46 <kmc> if you order helium balloons does it have a negative weight
21:42:59 <Bike> i don't think usps usually ships through the fourth dimension
21:43:18 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
21:43:21 <oerjan_> boo
21:43:22 <fizzie> I don't know if they measure mass or weight. I mean, the do state it in grams.
21:43:22 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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21:44:28 <fizzie> (By way of context, according to the post office parcel tracking system, what they're delivering to me has a mass of 0.00 kg and a volume of 0 m^3, but I didn't order a massless klein bottle.)
21:44:51 <FireFly> ^rot13 Taneb
21:44:51 <fungot> Gnaro
21:45:07 <oerjan> ^rot13 FireFly
21:45:07 <fungot> SverSyl
21:45:12 <fizzie> ^rot14 Gnarly.
21:45:17 <fizzie> ^rot13 Gnarly.
21:45:18 <fungot> Taneyl.
21:45:23 * shachaf
21:45:37 * ion
21:45:43 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, only dour puns allowed today
21:45:54 <shachaf> ^rot13 ion oerjan monqy
21:46:13 <fizzie> That sounds like an incantation.
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21:46:30 <fizzie> Ia, ia, vba brewna zbadl!
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21:53:42 <oerjan> ^rot13 shub niggurat
21:53:42 <fungot> fuho avttheng
21:53:57 <oerjan> ^rot13 shub niggurath
21:53:57 <fungot> fuho avtthengu
21:54:05 <shachaf> ^rot13 fizzie fungot
21:54:06 <fungot> svmmvr shatbg
21:54:18 <shachaf> ^rot13 olsner oklofok oklopol
21:54:19 <fungot> byfare bxybsbx bxybcby
21:54:20 <Taneb> Summer shitbag?
21:56:30 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that?
21:56:30 <fungot> fizzie: still had the older version) somewhere else. what unclear in that? :)
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21:58:51 <shachaf> ^rot13 ehird
21:58:52 <fungot> ruveq
22:00:13 <nys> byfare
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22:24:04 <nooodl> ^rot13 shachaf
22:24:05 <fungot> funpuns
22:24:17 <olsner> oerjan: nånstans, varsomhelst, överallt?
22:24:29 <olsner> not as systematic as X-where, but whatever
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22:27:54 <oerjan> olsner: anywhere can also be translated as nånstans in some uses
22:30:14 <olsner> that's what I was referring to
22:30:28 <shachaf> kmc: Would that Hotspot trick help for something like GHC's GC, where it does a comparison and conditional jump on every allocation?
22:30:37 <oerjan> some = nån, any = nån or vilkensomhelst, depending on meaning (modulo actual swedish spelling)
22:30:43 <shachaf> I suppose the overhead of a page fault is too high for how often it needs to GC.
22:30:48 <kmc> shachaf: maybe
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22:31:12 <kmc> you might use it for cheap checkpoints in allocation-free loops
22:31:18 <oerjan> nooodl: ONLY DOUR PUNS, I SAID
22:31:18 <kmc> but ezyang has a different clever solution
22:31:21 <kmc> that i think is implemented
22:31:48 <shachaf> What's that solution?
22:31:51 <nooodl> what is dour
22:32:31 <olsner> oerjan: säg ett datum, vilket som helst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QXL-o8DQM4)
22:32:41 <oerjan> nooodl: almost the opposite of fun
22:32:42 <kmc> you compile your loops with whatever check, and then you copy that page of code and make another page which is exactly the same except that the checks are replaced by NOPs
22:33:00 <oerjan> olsner: um "datum" isn't a common norwegian word, please clarify
22:33:00 <fizzie> oerjan has a dour odour.
22:33:01 <kmc> then when another thread wants to make your thread stop at a checkpoint, it masks the appropriate bit in the instruction pointer
22:33:47 <olsner> oerjan: date
22:33:59 <oerjan> 3 december *ducks*
22:34:05 <olsner> i.e. calendar date, not the fruit or the activity
22:34:32 <Arc_Koen> the fruit is spelt date?
22:34:41 <olsner> I think so
22:34:48 <oerjan> yes
22:35:20 <fizzie> A date with a date.
22:35:50 <fizzie> (SO MANY MEANINGS!)
22:36:26 <olsner> a date had a date with a date, but the date forgot the date
22:36:57 <fizzie> But the future refused to change.
22:48:37 <Arc_Koen> so here's a language:
22:48:47 <Arc_Koen> each program is a pair (n, p)
22:49:05 <Arc_Koen> where n is a natural number
22:50:12 <Arc_Koen> and p a program in befunge-93, except with unbounded playfield (instructions p and g have access to an infinite grid)
22:51:18 <Arc_Koen> well numbers on the befunge stack are bounded so let's say that it's an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p and g can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in, or something
22:51:36 <Arc_Koen> so running the program (n, p) is similar to running p as befunge
22:51:55 <Arc_Koen> except that every instruction goes along with an accumulator
22:52:14 <Arc_Koen> and if ever one instruction's accumulator goes higher than n execution halts
22:52:32 <Arc_Koen> prove tc (you have two hours)
22:53:49 <coppro> may the nonzero subset of the field be unbounded? May it be aperiodic?
22:53:56 <oerjan> um is the accumulator tied to the spot in the playfield?
22:54:47 <coppro> if aperiodic, it's quite trivial
22:55:11 <oerjan> i don't think you need that. finite initial setup should be sufficient.
22:55:49 <Arc_Koen> not sure I understand your questions
22:56:01 <Arc_Koen> idea is playfield is infinite and each cell has an accumulator
22:56:10 <oerjan> right, each cell.
22:56:23 <oerjan> but is the initial program infinite?
22:56:27 <Arc_Koen> nope
22:56:37 <Arc_Koen> but you get p and g
22:57:08 <oerjan> well i think you can do a turing machine that copies itself in some direction each step
22:57:14 <Arc_Koen> that's the idea
22:57:17 <coppro> what if n = 1
22:57:28 <oerjan> you need a big n, obviously
22:57:34 <Arc_Koen> if n = 1 then creating a new instruction costs you an instruction
22:57:49 <coppro> oh, n isn't provided
22:57:49 <coppro> ok
22:58:05 <coppro> yeah, this seems doable
22:58:44 <Arc_Koen> also: is there some constant N such that the subset of pairs (N, p) is also turing-complete?
22:59:00 <oerjan> yes i think so
22:59:08 <Arc_Koen> that would force you to write quining befunge programs :)
22:59:21 <oerjan> ...you have to do that anyhow
23:00:12 <oerjan> or perhaps a cellular automaton is more intuitive than a TM here
23:00:46 <Arc_Koen> ("that" was the whole thing, not the bound on n
23:00:48 <oerjan> (a 1d one)
23:01:06 <oerjan> which "that"?
23:01:20 <oerjan> oh right
23:01:44 <coppro> I'd just use i
23:02:15 <oerjan> well i would then represent each CA cell as a subsquare of the befunge program that takes care of copying itself to the next level and calculating the right CA value to put there
23:06:25 <fizzie> Can you write anything into an empty square, though?
23:06:39 <oerjan> isn't that what p does?
23:06:42 <fizzie> The p doing the writing would have to be in that square.
23:06:46 <fizzie> Not cell, square.
23:07:32 <oerjan> not _that_ big squares, smaller than the relative wrapping
23:07:37 <fizzie> "an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p -- can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in" kind of square.
23:08:11 <oerjan> yes, but the squares to represent cells don't have to be anywhere near as large as bound * bound, if bound is something like 2^23
23:08:34 <fizzie> Yes, but wouldn't you eventually have to get out of the wrapping-square?
23:08:47 <fizzie> If the cells in it wear out and all.
23:08:47 <oerjan> oh. i was assuming the bound*bound squares were centered on the current ip
23:09:10 <fizzie> That's not what it sounds like, but I guess it could be.
23:09:12 <oerjan> so that they overlap.
23:09:23 <oerjan> otherwise there could be a problem yeah
23:10:14 <oerjan> i guess what Arc_Koen actually said doesn't imply overlapping
23:10:28 <fizzie> It *sounds* like there's a fixed grid of squares, but that might be just me.
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23:11:25 <oerjan> i don't know befunge well enough to know whether there is an instruction that could get around that
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23:12:19 <oerjan> you could save data on the stack instead of moving across the boundary directly, but you would still need some way to get a minimal program into a non-used square
23:12:52 <oerjan> to do the copying from the stack to a nearly empty square
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23:14:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge-93 seems to have nothing other than p
23:14:21 <fizzie> I don't think 93 has anything that can write to playfield except p.
23:14:39 <fizzie> 98 also has s which might work though would be quite awkward to use.
23:15:19 <fizzie> It writes a character to pos+delta, but I can't recall if it the skips that character or not.
23:15:41 <fizzie> Of course it'd wrap so maybe it's not a problem even if it skips it.
23:15:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: so i think we are going to need the p restricting squares to be overlapping for this to work
23:15:57 <fizzie> Moot point, of course, since it wasn't 98.
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23:31:20 <zzo38> I have now my own concept, another way to group pokemons, where each pokemon also belongs to a "prefix group". A prefix group is identified by zero, one, or two letters. All official pokemons belong to the Nintendo prefix group, identified by no letters. There is a partial order on prefix groups, with Nintendo being initial.
23:32:02 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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23:33:36 <zzo38> It is designed to be usable with battle simulators supporting custom pokemon species.
23:35:07 <shachaf> Why zero, one, or two?
23:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> because 3 would just be madness
23:35:38 <shachaf> > 26^2 + 26^2
23:35:39 <lambdabot> 1352
23:35:41 <zzo38> So that the ID could fit in a six character field. It could be extended to three letters if necessary.
23:35:49 <shachaf> > 26^2 + 26^1 + 26^0
23:35:50 <lambdabot> 703
23:36:18 <shachaf> 703 is hardly better than 1.
23:36:35 <zzo38> Possibly even four or five if the number of species per those groups is very small.
23:36:58 <shachaf> "zzo" would make a good prefix group.
23:37:09 <shachaf> Where does your nick come from, anyway?
23:37:28 <zzo38> I don't actually know for sure.
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23:43:20 <zzo38> What is the best way to represent the partial ordering in the computer?
23:44:32 <shachaf> A long English document?
23:45:23 <zzo38> I wanted to do something in a ASCII text file which is both readable by people and processable by computer.
23:45:44 <zzo38> And in a packed form that does not necessarily require every one.
23:46:04 <zzo38> As well as being easy to correct.
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