←2012-12-03 2012-12-04 2012-12-05→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:01 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh, right. otherwise a square that was initially empty can never be written to from out, but if the ip enters a square that's empty it will exit without performing any writing...
00:02:48 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well partial orders over a finite set are basically trees
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00:04:06 <oerjan> no they are not.
00:04:15 <Arc_Koen> oh?
00:04:25 <oerjan> .
00:04:29 <oerjan> / \
00:04:35 <oerjan> / \
00:04:38 <Arc_Koen> ohhh
00:04:39 <Arc_Koen> right
00:04:40 <oerjan> .------.
00:04:42 <Arc_Koen> ok ok
00:04:53 <Bike> dags, then
00:05:11 <oerjan> darn miscounted
00:05:30 <Arc_Koen> but that's almost like trees
00:05:33 <Arc_Koen> since it's oriented
00:05:50 <shachaf> .
00:05:52 <shachaf> / \
00:05:53 <shachaf> / \
00:06:04 <Arc_Koen> after all we do talk about "genealogy trees" even though they're not trees either
00:06:23 <Bike> They're not?
00:06:51 <Arc_Koen> well I can be the descendant of two people which are cousins
00:06:55 * oerjan gently teaches Bike about incest
00:07:24 * Arc_Koen didn't even realized there was something wrong with that
00:07:25 * oerjan notes he may have been unusually creepy today
00:07:33 <Fiora> they're directed acyclic graphs, right...?
00:07:47 <oerjan> Fiora: barring time travel hth
00:07:53 * Gregor gently teaches oerjan that we're ALL cousins.
00:08:13 <shachaf> Gregor: I thought we were all brothers and sisters.
00:08:20 <oerjan> kinky
00:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> eew
00:08:30 <Fiora> true... the homestuck family geneology consists entirely of cycles
00:08:40 <shachaf> Did you read that one story by Heinlein?
00:08:43 <Bike> oh, i was confusing dags with possibly cyclic graphs, durr.
00:08:46 <Gregor> The only way you can be the child of two people who are not cousins (and it's just a matter of terminology) is if they're siblings, uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews, or direct linear descendents/ancestors.
00:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i read of it, that's just as good
00:09:07 <Bike> shachaf: he wrote a few about time travel fuckery? you probably mean all you zombies though
00:09:13 <shachaf> Yes.
00:09:21 <shachaf> On the topic of family graphs.
00:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the only one with actual time travel fuckery
00:09:26 <shachaf> Family monoids?
00:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> family rings
00:09:38 <Bike> @google the man who folded himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> Title: The Man Who Folded Himself - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:09:41 <Bike> also notable
00:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> if only heinlein wasn't a complete arsehole
00:10:07 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure back to the future is about marty having sex with his mother
00:10:12 <Bike> then we could read his stories about spacetime incest in peace.
00:10:19 <shachaf> What was that other time travel thing he wrote?
00:10:41 <Gregor> By the way, white folk (probably most of you), did you know that you're part neanderthal? It's true!
00:11:04 <Bike> i was thinking of... i forget the title, time enough for love maybe? i think he has sex with his mother, and also twin clones of himself or something
00:11:17 <shachaf> By His Bootstraps is the on I was thinking of there.
00:11:17 <Fiora> is there any racial group that isn't part neanderthal?
00:11:19 <Arc_Koen> all at the same time?
00:11:24 <Gregor> Fiora: African.
00:11:29 <Fiora> ahhhh
00:11:30 <shachaf> Also The Door Into Summer. That was a good one.
00:11:45 <Bike> homo sapiens purity. purge the nonafricans
00:12:17 <Gregor> Well I, for one, find it fascinating, so nyaa.
00:12:27 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: so maybe you can have each line be an ordered list of prefixes
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00:12:49 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: and some "debugger" would tell you if there are redundancies
00:13:27 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK. I can try that.
00:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, um
00:13:44 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not sure whether redundancy is good or bad
00:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't the point at which the human ancestor pool merges at most a few millenia ago
00:14:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Door Into Summer_?
00:15:04 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: additionally the 'debugger' could also warn you of "nodes" which are not at the beginning of a line
00:15:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's closer to 200,000 years.
00:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I think everyone has *some* Neanderthal ancestors, Africans just don't have many.
00:15:36 <Arc_Koen> uh, not sure what I meant
00:15:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, uhhhh, not what I'd heard.
00:16:46 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam // one ancestor is as recent as 60,000 years, but no more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve // the other, ~200,000 years.
00:17:02 <Arc_Koen> that's not what they said in stargate
00:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, those are *direct male and female lines*.
00:17:21 <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart?
00:17:45 <Arc_Koen> I think in some episode they find a frozen human body that's a hundred million years or so old
00:18:00 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The last real merge of humanity into a single pool was before the latest exodus from Africa (duh), and our intermingling with neanderthals just after it.
00:18:01 <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links.
00:18:03 <shachaf> "thanks"
00:18:07 <shachaf> ^rot13 Gregor
00:18:08 <fungot> Tertbe
00:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, doesn't have to be a single pool.
00:18:19 <shachaf> ^rot13 Gregory
00:18:20 <fungot> Tertbel
00:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> One migrant can very quickly propagate their ancestry through an isolated population.
00:18:51 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: yeah that's gotta count as statutory rape or something
00:19:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I suppose "born" isn't quite the right word to use there.
00:19:54 <Bike> i thought the last common ancestor thing was at the bottleneck after that explosion in east asia.
00:20:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart? <-- basically males tend to spread their genes faster than females, so the direct male lines also die out faster
00:20:05 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The study they did found /no/ neanderthal genomes in modern Africans.
00:20:06 <oerjan> afaiu
00:20:13 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor#MRCA_of_all_living_humans ?
00:20:23 <Gregor> (For the group they studied)
00:20:39 <shachaf> edwardk did that skew binary online LCA thing.
00:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "The identical ancestors point for Homo sapiens has been estimated to between 15,000 and 5,000 years ago."
00:21:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links. <-- please don't
00:21:39 <oerjan> (sure i can edit them by hand...)
00:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Neanderthals died out around twice as far back.
00:22:10 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the matter with https:?
00:22:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you mean males can use the 9-month pause in the spreading somewhere to start spreading elsewhere?
00:22:39 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: SOMETHING LIKE THAT
00:23:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That statistic is contrary to everything else I have ever read, including in relevant college courses >_>
00:24:21 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm when i tested now it worked fine, i'm still logged in and everything.
00:24:32 <shachaf> https: works great.
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00:24:51 <shachaf> I bet oerjan is just the NSA trying to spy on my Wikipedia readin's.
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00:27:20 <oerjan> Gregor: could be true though, that ancestor can be through mixed male and female lines after all, so not as restricted as "adam" and "eve"
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00:28:37 <oerjan> and because of this, you cannot simply measure it by comparing dna like with the single-line inherited parts
00:29:37 <oerjan> heh, "It is incorrect to assume that the MRCA passed all of his or her genes (or indeed any gene) down to every person alive."
00:30:11 <oerjan> we could have a common ancestor that left no genes at all...
00:31:16 <Fiora> I like the Ship of Theseus mention
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00:32:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: of course at that point you're feeling the urge to do the math
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00:32:34 <oerjan> oh identical ancestors point is something else again
00:33:41 <oerjan> in fact i think we discussed that very concept on the channel a while ago
00:33:51 <oerjan> (without the name)
00:35:03 <Gregor> So, it looks like all the stuff suggesting 15,000-5,000 years is based on computer models of human populations.
00:35:33 <Arc_Koen> they didn't even bother to build a time machine to conduct the experiment?
00:35:35 <Gregor> Whereas the recent (2010) study finding neanderthal genes was, y'know, not models. It was people, and their genes.
00:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you haven't actually addressed the point about common ancestors not necessarily implying common genes.
00:36:20 <Gregor> Right, if there's sufficiently little flow then they can end up sort of flushing the last bits out anyway.
00:36:27 <Gregor> And still having neanderthals in their line.
00:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ...so what're we disagreeing on?
00:37:47 <Gregor> I suppose we're not :)
00:37:59 <Gregor> I just preferred the original interpretation to the possibly-more-accurate one ;)
00:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the accurate version is "you're descended from Neanderthals, but if you're African you might as well not be".
00:40:26 <Gregor> Yeah.
00:46:04 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: What did you mean, note not at the beginning of a line?
00:46:43 <zzo38> Why does the Haskell read function not allow comments?
00:47:30 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: hmmm well imagine if you have a line "2 4 12 24 48" and another line "3 6 12 36"
00:47:39 <Arc_Koen> then the two lines "cross" at 12
00:47:48 <zzo38> O, OK.
00:48:15 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure that's a problem; maybe crossing prefixes should be hilighted or something
00:49:05 <Arc_Koen> because that makes 36 bigger than 2
00:49:56 <Arc_Koen> so when you're for instance looking for "all prefixes bigger than 2" you might want not to scan all the lines, only the lines for which the first element is bigger than 2
00:50:20 <Arc_Koen> sorry I did not mean "cross" I meant "merge"
00:50:22 <oerjan> i think what you want to avoid for redundancy is anything that can be deduced from transitivity. i.e. don't list adjacently any prefixes that have intermediate ones between them
00:50:40 <oerjan> so if you have 2 4 12, then 2 12 would not be allowed.
00:50:52 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I meant
00:51:04 <oerjan> oh and of course no adjacent pairs should be repeated
00:51:04 <zzo38> Well, perhaps it should still be allowed even though it is redundant, it could still be a warning.
00:51:31 <zzo38> But there is not allowed different ones equal in this context so that would be error.
00:51:34 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not so sure it's such a bad thing - maybe you very much want one prefix to be lower than another, notwithstanding intermediate prefixes
00:52:24 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um that's an automatic consequence, since this is a partial order
00:52:28 <Arc_Koen> it should of course check for cycles and stuff
00:52:29 <zzo38> One idea I have is, every line only lists what is lesser, and some things are deduced from transitivity
00:53:00 <zzo38> I wanted to use Haskell format, but the read function doesn't allow comments, so I won't use that.
00:53:06 <oerjan> you only need to list things that are "closest neighbors"
00:53:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I'm talking about "maintainability" of the partial order description file :)
00:53:25 <oerjan> well ok
00:54:14 <zzo38> Well, this file will contain more than just the partial order.
00:56:51 <oerjan> although i am also thinking you might want to have groupings. for example if you have 1 4, 1 5, 1 6, 2 4, 2 5, 2 6, 3 4, 3 5, 3 6 then it would be shorter to say that all of 1 2 and 3 are smaller than all of 4 5 and 6 if you can name groups.
00:58:01 <oerjan> hm this is almost essentially the same problem as how to design a more flexible way of giving haskell operator precedences
00:58:23 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh you only make pairs?
00:58:30 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking you could make whole lines
00:58:41 <Arc_Koen> ie compress 1 2, 2 3, 3 4 as 1 2 3 4
00:58:43 <zzo38> oerjan: I really think the operator precedences ought to be surreal numbers.
00:58:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that was just in that example, which had no lines to make
00:59:49 <Arc_Koen> maybe you could make 1 2 3 an equivalency class if they share the same properties
00:59:52 <oerjan> zzo38: ...but those are totally ordered, which may be unsuitable... oh well right, there are other issues with operators.
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01:00:08 <Arc_Koen> and maybe you could give a scope to that class if they don't have all their properties in common
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01:02:40 <zzo38> I don't know exactly what the file syntax should be, although probably not Haskell because its read function does not parse comments.
01:03:35 <zzo38> But I did think of the idea to make the partial ordering, but if you have a better idea you can specify your ideas too.
01:05:28 <Arc_Koen> what is the ordering be used for anyway?
01:06:25 <zzo38> Well, it is an optional feature (programs using this file are not required to support it), but can be used to define "baby pokemon" according to the definition I used, if you want to use that definition.
01:14:33 <zzo38> Would you like this: this_prefix(lesser_prefixes): "text" url
01:17:04 <zzo38> The URL can be any internet URL, telephone, postal address, or ISBN.
01:17:38 <zzo38> Perhaps also allow Tor domains.
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01:18:24 <zzo38> If the list of lesser prefixes is empty you omit the parentheses; if you include them with nothing in between, it includes a single entry which is the empty (Nintendo) prefix.
01:20:25 <zzo38> The URL and text is recommended to be ASCII, although Unicode is allowed (including Conscripts), however they must be encoded using ASCII format: For URL, encoding using % or punycode. For text, encoded using Haskell string literal syntax.
01:20:45 <oerjan> somehow i'm thinking the other way around would be more logical, with () meaning empty, since it is explicit
01:20:46 <zzo38> Comments have # at front of the line.
01:21:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, maybe...
01:26:12 <zzo38> Still, I am thinking () is a single blank prefix, because the entries separated by commas, and so no comma = 1 entry, which is blank.
01:26:20 <zzo38> That is why I did it that way.
01:30:25 <shachaf> @wn avuncular
01:30:26 <lambdabot> *** "avuncular" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:30:26 <lambdabot> avuncular
01:30:26 <lambdabot> adj 1: resembling a uncle in kindness or indulgence
01:30:26 <lambdabot> 2: being or relating to an uncle
01:32:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Why do you think other way is really more logical?
01:33:28 <Bike> oh hey, i remember that word from anthropology class. are you still looking up MRCA stuff?
01:35:33 <oerjan> zzo38: well i guess it's intuitive from what () means in haskell, like in import lists and tuples.
01:36:23 <zzo38> Well, yes but if it is Haskell we would use square brackets because it is a list.
01:36:43 <oerjan> i guess C tends to use more of () as "use defaults" sometimes
01:36:48 <oerjan> zzo38: not in import lists
01:37:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, yes, in import lists () does mean an empty list, and nothing at all means, it is everything.
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01:39:00 <zzo38> And even if it is Haskell, this isn't an import list anyways.
01:40:21 <oerjan> more like an inheritance list. but haskell has (A a, B a) => for that instead.
01:40:59 <zzo38> No, it isn't an inheritance list either; it is only a partial ordering.
01:41:18 <oerjan> oh well
01:41:38 * oerjan no good argue about not facts
01:41:50 <shachaf> hi oerjan
01:41:58 <oerjan> hi shachaf
01:42:07 <oerjan> you look very avuncular today
01:42:32 <zzo38> Even then, for an inheritance list, omitting it does not mean it inherits everything or meaning it inherits anything which it will not inherit if you do include the list. And with import lists, no () means import everything, which is also different to mine.
01:42:51 <zzo38> So, either way, it doesn't work.
01:45:14 <zzo38> Now you may see what my logic is, although other ideas are still possible, such as something before or after each item, so you explicitly know the empty item.
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02:04:06 <zzo38> The file "interlocks.h" for Csound, is I cannot find a document of it, but I look at the other codes to try to figure it out, but still I don't know what SB and _QQ mean, and some codes also use 0x20 as an interlock value and I don't know what that means either.
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02:11:54 <zzo38> #define MEMDEF(x) x; typedef struct { x object[sizeof(x)<0xFF00?1:-1]; } x##__
02:16:05 <zzo38> Have you used these kind of things in any C codes?
02:19:08 <Lumpio-> How would you even use that
02:21:52 <zzo38> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/csound5extending.html#AddmodAddSpace
02:22:49 <zzo38> Does that explain it to you?
02:24:26 <Lumpio-> good grief, was this written for the IOCCC?
02:24:33 <Lumpio-> "f-rate streaming pvoc fsig type"
02:24:40 <Lumpio-> I don't think that counts as English
02:25:29 <zzo38> Are you sure? Well, I don't think it was written for the IOCCC.
02:25:47 <Lumpio-> What happens when an array ends up with a -1 size anyways
02:25:55 <zzo38> You get a compiler error.
02:25:57 <Lumpio-> Is that just a hacky and unreadable way to causing a compiler error?
02:26:30 <zzo38> I wouldn't call it unreadable.
02:26:38 <Lumpio-> Also where would you use that macro
02:26:43 <Lumpio-> The "x;" at the start intrigues me
02:27:45 <zzo38> typedef struct { OPDS h; MYFLT*ao; MYFLT*ai; } MEMDEF(mem_avecrev);
02:27:57 <Lumpio-> oh it comes at the end of a typedef
02:29:04 <Lumpio-> I think I once made a piece of software somethign like this thing thing
02:29:25 <Lumpio-> It was graphical though.
02:30:25 <Lumpio-> And I never really bothered coming up with interesting blocks
02:30:40 <Lumpio-> Or modules or whatever you call them
02:31:15 <Lumpio-> I wonder if browsers are fast enough to do it in JavaScript these days
02:31:30 <Lumpio-> I still don't trust JS when it comes to raw math performance
02:32:22 <zzo38> Well, this is Csound; what software were you using?
02:34:18 <Lumpio-> er
02:34:19 <Lumpio-> GCC?
02:34:32 <Lumpio-> I was making my own thing from scratch. This was years ago
02:35:16 <zzo38> What did the program do?
02:35:28 <shachaf> zzo38: How long have you had your nick?
02:35:35 <shachaf> Was it always 38, or a different number once?
02:35:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Always 38
02:36:05 <zzo38> I don't know how long.
02:37:24 <Lumpio-> It made sounds
02:37:41 <Lumpio-> I had basic waveform generators, ADSR, some filters, and MIDI input.
02:37:51 <Lumpio-> Plus a block that takes a chain and clones it for polyphony.
02:38:08 <Lumpio-> It'd be kind of fun to make something like this with a physical interface
02:38:22 <Lumpio-> Something that looks like an analog modular synthesizer but is really just a simulation.
02:38:28 <Lumpio-> But that's probably never going to happen
02:38:47 <shachaf> oerjan: Do I really?
02:40:17 <oerjan> shachaf: just about ready to engage in some nepotism, i'd say
02:40:50 <shachaf> oerjan: Hm, I was leaning toward despotism.
02:40:59 <oerjan> those go well together
03:01:20 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Csound does such things and even more, and probably could even be made to connect to a physical interface.
03:01:39 <shachaf> what about a mental interface
03:02:31 <zzo38> It might be possible too, I don't know
03:03:46 <Sgeo_> Chrome seems to be seriously struggling with the new tab page
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03:33:41 <c00kiemon5ter> ohai o/ something blew up somewhere near and caused a power failure <.<
03:34:00 <shachaf> `welcome c00kiemon5ter
03:34:08 <HackEgo> c00kiemon5ter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:34:20 <c00kiemon5ter> i've had this message before
03:34:31 <oerjan> `WeLcOmE c00kiemon5ter
03:34:36 <HackEgo> C00kIeMoN5TeR: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:35:00 <c00kiemon5ter> :)
03:35:35 <oerjan> although i bet elliott still hasn't made the link work
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07:12:11 <oklofok> lament is so positive and full of hope in the 2003 logs
07:12:47 <shachaf> Where is lament?
07:12:52 <shachaf> Oh, 2003
07:13:08 <fizzie> Stuck in 2003, how horrible.
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07:13:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, lament is moving forward in time.
07:13:40 <shachaf> But unfortunately so are we.
07:13:46 <shachaf> We'll always be 9 years ahead. :-(
07:14:00 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Fiora
07:14:12 <oklofok> fizzie hasn't changed a bit
07:16:20 <oklofok> <fizzie> what with the topics on this channel, not a surprise (s?he|it) refused.
07:16:20 <fizzie> Maybe I'm stuck in 2003 too.
07:17:17 <oklofok> how old are you and how old is lament?
07:18:18 <fizzie> I wasn't this old then.
07:18:35 <oklofok> i'm looking for a number
07:18:53 <fizzie> 29 now, I think.
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07:20:33 <oklofok> interesting
07:20:57 <fizzie> I don't know about the age of lament(ation).
07:21:29 <fizzie> The lament of their women, as Conan says.
07:21:58 <oklofok> <lament> yay, ten people!
07:22:17 <zzo38> Should Proce have command to specify external input/output?
07:22:19 <oklofok> so weird
07:22:28 <zzo38> Otherwise, it doesn't do much.
07:23:25 <fizzie> Yay, sixty-eight people!
07:23:29 <fizzie> Still including clog!
07:23:40 <fizzie> fungot: You count as people too!
07:23:41 <fungot> fizzie: before the renaissance, western mathematics was pretty shitty on the notation side.
07:24:03 <fizzie> fungot: That's a direct quote, you lazy.
07:24:04 <fungot> fizzie: it is used or something like that wouldn't be equally tricky if you want
07:24:16 <fizzie> That probably isn't. Though you never know.
07:25:59 <oklofok> <oklopol> and i made a 3D bf with the IP being a SPACESHIP (now that's REAL COOL, right?), then i made a lang called metafuck, where you can execute the memory with it's own nulled memory
07:26:01 <oklofok> wait.
07:26:12 <oklofok> am i just sarcastic from the beginning
07:26:49 <oklofok> it seems i've calmed down quite a bit in any case
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08:00:17 <shachaf> /o/
08:00:21 <shachaf> myndzi?
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09:14:35 <shachaf> monqy: omg that takes ages :D
09:14:46 <monqy> hi
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09:17:04 <shachaf> monqy: or maybe its my function :o
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12:47:46 <asiekierka> Long time no see!
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13:03:34 <shachaf> `WELCOME asiekierka
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13:17:52 <fizzie> That's so big.
13:19:35 <fizzie> Also, this monitor developed a full-height vertical line of always-on blue pixels in the 354th column. It is visible also in the monitor startup logo splash and in different graphics modes.
13:20:23 <fizzie> I think it is a fault.
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13:21:51 <asiekierka> >354th column
13:21:53 <asiekierka> ah the accuracy
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13:23:44 <fizzie> It might be the 353th or the 355th column, to be honest.
13:24:14 <asiekierka> Gotta be more accurate br
13:24:15 <asiekierka> o
13:24:18 <asiekierka> Get a magnifying glass
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14:13:33 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: are you using a iMac?
14:14:38 <Arc_Koen> I have a friend with an iMac who developed the same problem (though he did not tell me the number of the column). Later on the monitor developed a second column like that, except purple instead of blue.
14:18:01 <fizzie> No, it's just a monitor.
14:18:09 <fizzie> Some old Fujitsu-Siemens leftover.
14:21:44 <elliott> fizzie: hi
14:22:03 <fizzie> (It's not *my* monitor. I'd be more dismayed if it were.)
14:22:09 <fizzie> Well HELLO THERE.
14:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so elliott have you started that fortress
14:26:43 <elliott> fizzie has
14:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh good
14:27:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie can be counted on
14:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> he's dependable
14:28:15 <elliott> relatedly,
14:28:20 <elliott> fizzie: help me with SSL thanks !
14:28:48 <elliott> tswett: is you?
14:35:12 <tswett> Probably.
14:35:55 <tswett> Yup, that's me.
14:36:33 <elliott> tswett: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&curid=1636&diff=34935&oldid=33068 hides a link to a user page which is a no-go by the wiki policies
14:36:44 <tswett> Ah.
14:36:55 <tswett> In that case, no, that's not me.
14:37:08 <elliott> well I wanted to know so I could ask what you wanted done :P
14:37:17 <elliott> would be easy to make a [[Tanner Swett]] stub that linked to the user page, that would suffice
14:37:25 <tswett> I just changed it to "Tanner Swett ([[User:Ihope127]])".
14:37:42 <elliott> don't you mean did :P
14:37:52 <elliott> thanks, anyway
14:37:52 <tswett> Yes, yes.
14:38:02 <elliott> I should really fix it so that links to the /// page actually work again
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14:55:57 <elliott> "The process of constructing instruction tables should be very fascinating. There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself." -- Turing
14:57:03 <Taneb> "I'm hungry." -- Nathan "Taneb" van Doorn
15:02:59 <kmc> elliott: nice
15:03:53 <elliott> via http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/there-need-be-no-real-danger-of-it-ever.html via http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=711, fwiw
15:03:58 <elliott> or are those vias the wrong way around
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15:46:15 <kmc> blind vias and buried vias
15:50:34 <Arc_Koen> if the last character in a /// program si \ what happens?
15:52:05 <elliott> "If the character is \, the character after it (if any) is printed and both characters are removed from the program."
15:52:24 <Arc_Koen> oh right, if any
16:01:16 <elliott> that description is less than clear admittedly (I wrote it)
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17:43:13 <hey> hey
17:43:17 <hey> every one
17:43:29 <hey> For programmer HELLO WORLD :)
17:43:32 -!- hey has changed nick to Guest89142.
17:44:00 <Guest89142> hey
17:44:06 -!- Guest89142 has left.
17:46:44 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhh kay
17:46:59 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey everyone for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
17:47:10 <Gregor> Ohwait
17:47:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey every one for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
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18:46:39 <fizzie> Isn't that missing a hey.
18:46:43 <zzo38> tswett: Did you make Proce esolang? I think there should be the way to specify external input/output?
18:46:50 <fizzie> hey hey hey every one hey for programmer HELLO WORLD.
18:46:51 <zzo38> fizzie: No, it is missing a key.
18:47:08 <Gregor> fizzie: I opted to paraphrase.
18:47:44 <zzo38> And the log URL is missing a percentage sign.
19:05:31 <elliott> @ping
19:05:31 <lambdabot> pong
19:05:36 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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19:07:10 <olsner> there was a hey after HELLO WORLD! too
19:08:08 <olsner> hey hey, hello world hey ... has a nice ring to it somehow
19:08:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:08:43 <AnotherTest> hello
19:08:44 <AnotherTest> I can no longer visit the page "///" on the wiki for some reason
19:09:04 <elliott> it has been like this for months because I am lazy and awful
19:09:07 <elliott> you can go to "Slashes" instaed
19:09:09 <elliott> *instead
19:09:10 <AnotherTest> Yes, I know
19:09:10 <elliott> sorry
19:09:13 <elliott> I will fix it sometime
19:09:22 <AnotherTest> but, the language list redirects you to ///
19:13:57 <AnotherTest> well
19:14:03 <AnotherTest> I guess I could change that
19:14:42 <AnotherTest> oh wait, never mind, it does redirect you to Slashes
19:18:14 <tswett> zzo38: I did make Proce, yeah, and there's no one obvious way to do I/O.
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19:19:46 <zzo38> tswett: To me would seem, should have some line indicating the outputs and inputs?
19:20:16 <zzo38> I might try to implement this, as a Csound plugin.
19:46:25 <zzo38> tswett: Do you think that may be reasonable way doing I/O?
19:46:34 <zzo38> Or, do you want a different way?
19:53:50 <zzo38> How do you program Mozilla to finish loading the HTML before attempting to load any CSS, script, images, etc?
19:54:43 <Bike> Finish loading or finish rendering?
19:57:22 <zzo38> Both.
19:57:55 <nortti> well for one you should probably upgrade to firefox or seamonkey but I think that is not what you mean
19:58:00 <Bike> because I"m pretty sure you need CSS and some scripts before it can be rendered properly
19:59:10 <zzo38> I mean the Mozilla engine (so that includes Firefox and so on)
19:59:19 <nortti> gecko?
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19:59:37 <nortti> or are you insane enough to tamper with mariner?
20:01:49 <zzo38> I think it could be rendered not too bad, if you don't use the CSS/scripts; it should display placeholders for images, and if for any reason it cannot finish rendering, it ought to still be required to finish loading first.
20:01:57 <zzo38> And then render as much as possible, before loading the rest.
20:02:30 <shachaf> hi elliott
20:02:47 <elliott> hello
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20:09:18 <oerjan> <shachaf> /o/
20:09:24 <oerjan> hm...
20:09:29 <oerjan> ^celebrate
20:09:29 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:09:40 <oerjan> oh noes
20:09:42 <elliott> myndzi......
20:10:22 <oerjan> looks distinctly idle
20:10:29 <FireFly> poor guys, their heads and arms are all chopped off
20:13:09 <shachaf> myndzi: hi
20:24:04 <fizzie> FireFly: There are also some disembodied hands.
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20:31:18 <zzo38> Can FM synthesis be done with acoustics rather than electronics?
20:32:38 <olsner> isn't that almost how humans speak?
20:32:52 <zzo38> I don't know.
20:33:03 <FreeFull> olsner: Nah
20:33:15 <FreeFull> Human speech is really more of resonance and resonant filtering
20:33:20 <zzo38> But I mean using strings and pipes and so on, not using speech.
20:33:22 <Lumpio-> I guess you could, at least to some extent
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20:34:01 <FreeFull> FM works by taking an oscillation and using it to change the frequency of another oscillation
20:34:11 <FreeFull> Then there is PM which changes the phase instead
20:34:19 <FreeFull> For some reason synthesiser companies call PM FM
20:36:52 <zzo38> So there is, frequency modulation, phase modulation, but is there duty modulation?
20:37:21 <kmc> pulse-width modulation?
20:37:39 <zzo38> The "squarewave" command in my Csound plugin could probably duty modulation too since the duty is an x-rate parameter
20:38:06 <zzo38> kmc: I guess it is like that.
20:38:43 <zzo38> Still with this command, the frequency is also x-rate, so you could make both the frequency and duty to be modulated.
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20:46:30 <fizzie> "FM" as a general term certainly doesn't really require the modulating signal to be an LFO or any sort of oscillator; the pitch effects of human speech (which work by altering the vocal fold oscillation frequency) are arguably rather clear examples of FM. (The bit that generally carries all "content", i.e. the frequency responses of the resonant filters, perhaps not so much.)
20:46:54 <elliott> fizzie: of course the speech recognition researcher jumps to the voice
20:46:58 <elliott> it's all about speech recognition!!
20:47:21 <FreeFull> zzo38: Ever heard of the Commodore 64?
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20:49:15 <kmc> -_-
20:49:21 <oerjan> one pole, washed away
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20:55:39 <fizzie> elliott: It was someone else who brought up the voice topic.
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20:58:33 <elliott> `welcome yorberth_puente
20:58:38 <HackEgo> yorberth_puente: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:19 <shachaf> Does anyone ever talk about deployment in here?
21:00:43 -!- yorberth_puente has quit (Excess Flood).
21:00:44 <shachaf> `cat bin/welcome
21:00:47 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:01:12 <arcatan> 10 tips for deploying brainfuck in production
21:01:14 <shachaf> `run wc -c bin/welcome
21:01:17 <HackEgo> 135 bin/welcome
21:01:27 <shachaf> `run ls bin
21:01:31 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
21:01:46 <shachaf> `cat bin/\?
21:01:49 <shachaf> `run cat bin/\?
21:01:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\?: No such file or directory
21:01:51 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic" \
21:01:58 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/welcome
21:02:01 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:02:13 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//'
21:02:16 <HackEgo> sed: no input files
21:02:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
21:02:21 <HackEgo> No output.
21:02:39 <shachaf> `welcome fizzie
21:02:42 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:03:36 <fizzie> Oh! I thought it was like mediums and channeling and angel healing.
21:05:40 <ion> and angle grinding
21:08:29 <boily> angle grinding?
21:08:41 <fizzie> An acute case of angels.
21:09:14 <fizzie> There was a book at the book store called Angels in My Hair. Plus two further books "from the author of Angels in My Hair".
21:09:50 <fizzie> "In this uplifting autobiography, a modern-day Irish mystic shares her vivid encounters and conversations with the angels and spirits she has known her entire life."
21:10:09 <fizzie> "For as long as she can remember, Lorna Byrne has seen angels. As a young child, she assumed everyone could see the otherworldly beings who always accompanied her. Yet in the eyes of adults, her abnormal behavior was a symptom of mental deficiency. Today, sick and troubled people from around the world are drawn to her for comfort and healing, and even theologians of different faiths seek her ...
21:10:15 <fizzie> ... guidance." ...yeah.
21:10:30 <fizzie> Just think! People dared to think she might have something wrong in the head department.
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21:12:00 <olsner> how despicable
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21:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, otoh this /is/ in ireland
21:26:33 <Arc_Koen> does this mean the other hand is under ireland?
21:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> probably
21:28:52 <olsner> it could also mean mayonnaise
21:29:27 * oerjan gently fails at sweeping norwegian princess Märtha Louise under the rug
21:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> the pithy observation i was leading up to is that irish culture isn't really one of hardline rationalism
21:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, why, is she nuts
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> her wikipedia doesn't make her sound /that/ much crazier than prince charles
21:33:59 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: that's like "not /that/ much hotter than the sun" or "not /that/ much wetter than the Atlantic Ocean". Or, y'know, "not /that/ much less usable than Haskell"
21:34:08 <soundnfury> (sorry. contractual obligation)
21:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not a very good troll
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21:34:26 <oerjan> soundnfury is back?
21:34:34 <soundnfury> yeah, well, you can't fire me. Trolls have an /awesome/ union
21:34:40 <soundnfury> or maybe it's a struct, I'm not sure
21:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> wait is he the climate change denialist tory
21:34:47 <soundnfury> its members might not overlap
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21:34:56 <soundnfury> oerjan: I'm afraid I am
21:35:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_M%C3%A4rtha_Louise_of_Norway#Spirituality_school_controversy anyway
21:35:10 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not a tory! I'm an anarcho-capitalist libertarian
21:35:22 <soundnfury> there /is/ a difference
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21:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well obviously i already read that
21:36:29 <shachaf> 23E4 STRAIGHTNESS [⏤]
21:36:29 <shachaf> 23E5 FLATNESS [⏥]
21:36:34 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know those?
21:36:34 <oerjan> OKAY
21:36:45 -!- olsner has set topic: Use angels and your own power to create miracles in the logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:37:38 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, not helping with the 'no, not that kind of esoteric' problem
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21:37:57 <olsner> I'm not exactly trying to :)
21:37:59 <soundnfury> meh, we never talk about esolangs /anyway/, what does it matter?
21:38:20 <oerjan> we do too! several times a week, sometimes
21:38:21 <soundnfury> (well, except when we talk about Haskell) <-- seriously guys, it says in my contract that I have to do this.
21:39:01 <oerjan> soundnfury: the contract also says what eventually happens to your soul, i take
21:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> this is not funny now, and i'm not sure it ever was
21:39:12 <oerjan> and is signed in blood
21:39:13 <Taneb> I liked today's Critical Miss
21:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> being self-aware of one's idiocy does not excuse it
21:40:20 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I just wanted to make sure everyone could remember who I was. I'll stop now
21:40:31 <oerjan> soundnfury isn't identical to fax? just checking.
21:40:32 <soundnfury> (unless there are any /really good/ opportunities, then I might be unable to resist)
21:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, they're both british
21:40:54 <oerjan> fax is british?
21:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> well they made clangers references
21:41:12 <soundnfury> I am most assuredly /not/ a low-resolution image transmission system
21:41:24 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, talk about esolangs!
21:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> there may have been other things also
21:41:28 <fizzie> ...
21:41:45 <fizzie> ^echo Hello there.
21:41:45 <fungot> Hello there. Hello there.
21:41:47 <fizzie> ...
21:41:54 <Taneb> fungot, are you okay?
21:41:55 <fungot> Taneb: i took up emacs so i can do
21:41:57 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have something AGAINST esolangs there?
21:41:57 <fungot> fizzie: look to the past....
21:42:05 <fizzie> Spooky.
21:42:06 <soundnfury> Is fungot's "echo" supposed to... well... echo like that?
21:42:06 <fungot> soundnfury: manipulating xml as sexps?) or you can
21:42:08 <oerjan> experience, clearly
21:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oooh you've upset fungot
21:42:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's the return of the last
21:42:21 <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings?
21:42:21 <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:42:23 <soundnfury> yay, sexps!
21:42:28 <oerjan> soundnfury: of course, it wouldn't me much of an echo if it only said things _once_, would it?
21:42:47 <soundnfury> ^echo a duck's quack
21:42:47 <fungot> a duck's quack a duck's quack
21:42:55 <soundnfury> well, that disproves /that/ urban legend!
21:43:10 <soundnfury> sorry, I'm very bored and not a little drowsy
21:43:21 <soundnfury> this may lead to minor outbursts of insanity
21:43:42 <oerjan> a drow! kill it!
21:44:00 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think of APL?
21:44:01 <fungot> FireFly: it was the joke. shriram krishnamurthi was saying that the headings should always use the -sign for arrays.... not insert /way/ better alternative.
21:44:19 <FireFly> Oh, okay
21:44:27 <soundnfury> fungot: what do you think of AAPL?
21:44:28 <fungot> soundnfury: upper management latched on to anything with a suxor name...) construct where parts of app pass procedures to compose: ( ( (1 2 3)
21:44:45 <soundnfury> that's almost true!
21:45:09 <FireFly> Well, why wouldn't it be?
21:45:15 <FireFly> fungot always speak the truth
21:45:15 <fungot> FireFly: you can request fnord at a distance 5000 feet.) mention what you managed to install fnord
21:45:42 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:45:43 <fungot> oerjan: i have access to your screen sessions, most of the time
21:45:45 <HackEgo> 863) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:46:10 <FireFly> oerjan: I'd be afraid if I were you
21:46:21 <FireFly> I wouldn't want fungot messing with my screen sessions
21:46:21 <fungot> FireFly: iso media, apple quicktime movie
21:46:22 <oerjan> FireFly: that would be worrisome if i used screen
21:46:45 <soundnfury> heck, the mere fact of using screen would be worrisome
21:47:08 <soundnfury> FireFly: fungot has actually been known to lie, but usually he corrupts the hard disks of anyone who has a log of the event
21:47:08 <fungot> soundnfury: can you see pretty easily what's going on?
21:47:32 <oerjan> soundnfury: DON'T ANSWER THAT
21:47:45 <olsner> ircing #esoteric through screen would give fungot access to your screen session
21:47:45 <fungot> olsner: wait a sec :) just store the symbols and labels)?
21:47:47 <olsner> fsvo access
21:47:54 <GreyKnight> fungot: *I* can pretty easily see what's going on.
21:47:54 <fungot> GreyKnight: it's definitively no toy environment'. it's great
21:48:01 * soundnfury chortles. Fnordingly.
21:48:30 <FireFly> ^style
21:48:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:48:43 <GreyKnight> fungot, don't you want to talk to me?
21:48:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: methinkx it was the fastest back then; the guile people are slow to calculate them lazily. that is
21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:49:10 <FireFly> fungot: back then, huh?
21:49:10 <fungot> FireFly: or is there another way
21:49:47 <GreyKnight> fungot: yeah the guile people *are* slow, aren't they?
21:49:48 <fungot> GreyKnight: if i want to mail a poor teacher a copy?). having to pack values into a monad moot.
21:50:02 <soundnfury> must... resist... temptation... to mock monads...
21:50:27 <arcatan> i mock monads so they're easier to test
21:50:45 <kmc> oh this again
21:51:18 <GreyKnight> fungot: what would happen if I were to pack soundnfury into a monad, do you suppose?
21:51:18 <fungot> GreyKnight: i think it's gotta run at fnord
21:51:34 <FireFly> fungot: yes, obviously it would
21:51:35 <fungot> FireFly: and we want to switch back and forth, but if i was you, i'd leave him. everyone has hated him since. the end.
21:51:45 <FireFly> That's sad
21:51:47 <GreyKnight> :-D
21:53:37 * soundnfury is used to being hated
21:53:41 <soundnfury> but being hated by a bot?
21:53:46 <soundnfury> that's just low
21:54:21 <GreyKnight> fungot: let's talk about Feather. What would be a good name for a Feather interpreter?
21:54:21 <fungot> GreyKnight: let me rephrase! " captive market" anybody?
21:54:36 <GreyKnight> fungot: Perfect, thanks!
21:54:37 <fungot> GreyKnight: care to describe it.
21:55:05 <soundnfury> fungot: what should be the foundation of my next esolang? I'm thinking something involving ed
21:55:06 <fungot> soundnfury: if my macro does not. cmuscheme.el does.
21:55:09 <GreyKnight> well, first I'll implement it in some other language, then retroactively host it in Feather all the way down
21:55:50 <Deewiant> Quill
21:55:53 <soundnfury> fungot: soo... reimplement ed in lisp, or reimplement emacs on top of ed?
21:55:54 <fungot> soundnfury: we disagree about where it was revealed that the health service had a hospital running for several months and come back
21:55:54 <FireFly> fungot wants GreyKnight to describe the inner workings of this Feather interpreter? oh god.
21:55:54 <fungot> FireFly: if you used a proper xml production library that can be used as a teaching language.
21:56:13 <GreyKnight> I'm surprised how relevant he manages to be
21:56:26 <oerjan> GreyKnight: IT'S A TRAP
21:56:35 <GreyKnight> IT'S A TARP
21:56:50 <soundnfury> yeah, but I'm not quite sure what the relevance of the NHS is to my question about ed-macs
21:57:26 <FireFly> fungot: what's your favourite programming paradigm?
21:57:26 <fungot> FireFly: so it's two proof, after which you can ask
21:57:56 <GreyKnight> clearly you should sell ed-macs systems to the hospitals
21:58:47 <soundnfury> GreyKnight: nah, they already have MUMPS
22:06:09 <GreyKnight> ais523: I am actually going to call it captive-market now, just FYI
22:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, you aren't trying to write a feather interpreter are you
22:08:11 <GreyKnight> I can neither confirm nor deny this statement
22:08:41 <Taneb> Hmm
22:09:03 <Taneb> Would the TardisT monad transformer be useful for writing a feather interpreter
22:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> does it take up less memory than it contains
22:10:28 <Taneb> I don't know
22:10:31 <Taneb> Ask me again in the past
22:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i did, don't you remember?
22:12:48 <Taneb> Oh yes
22:13:17 <Taneb> On a different note, I'm listening to songs I don't really like in a language I don't speak a word of
22:13:22 <elliott> do I really see soundnfury saying bullshit about haskell in the logs yet another day
22:13:28 <elliott> can't you just go away forever or something
22:13:40 <FireFly> Taneb: why?
22:13:52 <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY
22:14:13 * GreyKnight wraps soundnfury in a monad
22:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh no, don't you see? he's saying bullshit about haskell ironically
22:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> that makes him funny and interesting
22:14:35 <elliott> interesting proposition!
22:14:46 <elliott> i disagree and offer instead the proposition that it just makes him even more pointless
22:15:04 <Taneb> @pl soundnfury
22:15:04 <lambdabot> soundnfury
22:15:07 <Taneb> Yep
22:15:12 <Taneb> He's as pointless as they get
22:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> he's being pointless ironically too!
22:15:24 <FireFly> @unpl soundnfury
22:15:25 <lambdabot> soundnfury
22:16:05 -!- monqy has joined.
22:16:43 <Taneb> FireFly, really, it's just noise
22:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> he's like the fixed point of pointlessness
22:17:12 -!- Vorpal has joined.
22:22:09 <soundnfury> You can't Y combinate me!
22:22:18 <monqy> hi
22:22:25 <elliott> please
22:22:29 <elliott> this is embarrassing for everyone
22:23:00 <shachaf> i'm not embarrassed!!!!!!!!!
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm just tiredly shaking my head
22:23:43 <monqy> im smiling. hello soundnfury!!!welcome to esoteric
22:23:49 <soundnfury> hello monqy
22:24:10 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: Reconnecting…).
22:24:16 <soundnfury> I think I annoyed elliott by making a couple of haskell jibes
22:24:24 <soundnfury> but I'm sure he'll get over it eventually
22:24:24 <monqy> pfff that'd annoy anyone
22:24:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY <-- is this quenya, sindarin, klingon or something else?
22:24:36 <monqy> don't worry about it : )
22:25:02 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
22:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yes soundnfury, elliott was annoyed to a positive fervour by the sick burns you landed on haskell
22:25:39 -!- jfischoff has joined.
22:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> your attitude to life would make willy loman proud
22:25:58 <elliott> soundnfury: well it's more that you literally say nothing of value and have apparently created your "#esoteric persona" entirely around saying dumb things about haskell that nobody even cares about (because who cares about the opinions of someone who clearly knows nothing about haskell??)
22:25:59 <GreyKnight> (Y pointlessness)
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22:26:25 <elliott> so you live up to your name i.e. told by an idiot, signifying nothing
22:26:28 <monqy> soundnfury: elliott's right!!! i know you only as "the haskellphobe"
22:26:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:26:33 <soundnfury> elliott: I do occasionally talk about other things
22:26:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:26:39 <soundnfury> like, actual esolangs
22:26:53 <elliott> well maybe it would be good if you didn't drown that out with that dumbness
22:27:10 <soundnfury> well maybe if there were more esolang talk in here there'd be something for me to talk about that wasn't dumb
22:28:04 <soundnfury> case in point: what does some irish lass who thinks she talks to angels have to do with esolangs?
22:28:12 <elliott> well so clearly you don't like the contents of this channel
22:28:17 <elliott> so instead of feebly "trolling" the people inside
22:28:18 <elliott> why not just go away
22:28:29 <soundnfury> but I /do/ like the thing this channel is ostensibly about
22:28:40 <monqy> hint: thats not what the channel is actually about. shoo
22:28:42 <elliott> so you are going to troll it in the hopes it becomes off-topic???
22:28:44 <elliott> by talking about
22:28:47 <elliott> something off-topic
22:29:01 <elliott> i don't see how this can possibly have a productive end... you're freely admitting you are trying to bother us because you don't like what we talk about
22:29:19 <GreyKnight> fungot: what is the meaning of life?
22:29:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: ' ( 1 2) ( scheme-report-environment 5)
22:29:37 <soundnfury> elliott: I'm not actually trying to bother you
22:29:59 <GreyKnight> Ah, scheme. Of course.
22:30:05 <soundnfury> I just have difficulty resisting the opportunities to direct childish humour at Haskell when I happen to be bored
22:30:29 <elliott> well
22:30:33 <soundnfury> and since, on days when I'm /not/ bored, there's not usually any conversation in this channel to join in with productively,
22:30:40 <elliott> i think you will find everyone in the channel either doesn't care about it or is bothered by it
22:30:44 <soundnfury> you only tend to hear from me when I'm bored
22:30:47 <GreyKnight> Well, *I'm* going to sleep
22:30:50 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: zzz).
22:31:02 <elliott> so perhaps restrain yourself?? or just don't join when you're bored
22:31:10 <oerjan> darn i was just going to xkcd him
22:31:35 <soundnfury> I usually do restrain myself, but you don't see that, you only see the cases when my restraint fails
22:31:49 <soundnfury> so, try not to hate me /too/ much for not being perfect at restraint
22:32:49 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:33:21 <oerjan> technically soundnfury had been here for hours before i noticed he was, of course that _was_ when he mentioned haskell.
22:34:12 <elliott> well if you have a person the vast majority of who's (total pro grammar) contribution to the channel is to fail to restrain themselves and say dumb things then that's pretty suboptimal imo
22:34:50 <soundnfury> programmers are in favour of syntax. Erm, I mean... they're pro grammar.
22:35:01 <oerjan> "whose" yw
22:35:07 <kmc> haskell... more like FUCK SKULL am i right
22:35:14 <kmc> (no, i am not)
22:35:51 -!- Deewiant has joined.
22:36:07 <soundnfury> kmc: good morrow, hail and well met. Prithee tell me how thou farest this day.
22:36:13 <monqy> haskell more like who would ever use a language with no I/O and you can't have variables???????am i right
22:36:18 <oerjan> it's ok you are allowed to dis haskell here. but you have to do it in the type system.
22:37:11 <elliott> monqy: i hear they represent strings as multiply-boxed linked lists!!! ha ha ha
22:37:12 <oerjan> and only because the kind system isn't powerful enough yet.
22:37:14 <elliott> ( :( )
22:37:37 <soundnfury> be kind to your type system. or is that a category error?
22:38:51 <soundnfury> On an unrelated topic, can someone give me architectural advice on a project I'm working on?
22:39:17 <soundnfury> it's a programmable text editor (-ish thing) in Python...
22:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> no
22:39:22 <oerjan> in any case, http://hauptwerk.blogspot.no/2012/11/coming-soon-in-ghc-head-poly-kinded.html is _clearly_ relevant
22:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> sort it out yourself, or ask people you haven't systematically annoyed
22:40:12 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: but annoyed people can give good advice, under a set of implausible assumptions I won't list here
22:43:46 <monqy> am i annoyed enough to give good advice ?
22:43:48 <elliott> good to know the channel is getting back on topic
22:43:54 <elliott> #esotexteditors
22:44:24 <monqy> python is esoteric if you think about it hard enough
22:44:34 <monqy> eschew's the common wisdom to use lexical scoping
22:44:42 <monqy> now that's innovation
22:44:50 <kmc> it's almost lexical scoping
22:45:18 <elliott> monqy: i think python 3 gets it right?
22:45:19 <elliott> not sure
22:45:21 <elliott> "right" anyway
22:45:24 <elliott> "Another cool thing is that now even type classes can have Typeable instances; since we allow abstraction over Constraint, datatypes may have parameters involving the Constraint kind, so to support Typeable for those datatypes, we need to support Typeable for type classes in general (as pointed out by Gábor Lehel)."
22:45:29 <elliott> is this the future
22:45:39 <elliott> is there an instance Typeable Typeable.....
22:45:57 <monqy> a future in which the future is syb
22:45:57 <kmc> holy god
22:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> what's python's scoping like
22:47:02 <shachaf> elliott: Want to write alongside for traversals?
22:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> this sounds juicy
22:47:35 <olsner> are these lens shenanigans related to syb?
22:47:46 <shachaf> Not really.
22:47:53 <soundnfury> I should add that the first part of it I'm implementing is actually an emulated `ed' session
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22:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck off and ask someone who cares
22:48:59 <kmc> soundnfury: perhaps bonghits will fix your emulated `ed' session
22:49:25 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: oh. I was assuming you'd continue to maintain a pretense of civility
22:49:30 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: if you write "x = 3" in a nested function, it puts a binding in your most local frame, not in whatever frame (if any) originally defined 'x'
22:49:33 <kmc> big whoop imo
22:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, ass of u and me, etc.
22:49:45 <kmc> it's kind of like scheme's 'define' vs 'set!'
22:49:49 <shachaf> In Python 3 you can say nonlocal x
22:50:00 <olsner> nonlocal? what a nice keyword
22:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry wait no, you haven't made an ass of me at all
22:50:13 <kmc> this arises because python doesn't have a distinction between declaring a variable and assigning to one
22:50:13 <zzo38> Well, local definitions like that may sometimes be useful in macros, although Haskell has bad support for macros anyways.
22:50:14 <soundnfury> olsner: well, they couldn't call it "global", that was taken
22:50:16 <kmc> which even scheme does kinda
22:50:19 <olsner> now, does that mean "sane x" or just "different x"
22:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you are simply digging your own fetid little hole ever-deeper
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22:50:40 <zzo38> I have used macros like that in C, though.
22:50:52 <kmc> the other thing about python is that 'for' loops and friends don't create new scopes; they mutate the counter variable in the function's scope
22:50:57 <kmc> however many languages work this way
22:51:01 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: funny, it doesn't look that way to me
22:51:27 <kmc> there is some additional weirdness with generator expressions tho
22:51:33 <olsner> I love how choosing the wrong name for the iteration variable in a for loop causes bugs after the for loop
22:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, your lack of perspective is one of your major flaws
22:51:47 <soundnfury> and I haven't even /mentioned/ a certain language even though several other people have
22:51:49 <kmc> see #3 here: http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html
22:52:02 <shachaf> kmc: I heard you were going to get that back up on the real Internet.
22:52:05 <soundnfury> not that I expected you to indicate any awareness of my restraint when present
22:52:27 <elliott> ok so one of you has to go otherwise this dumb argument will continue on to infinity
22:52:30 <elliott> i vote soundnfury
22:52:53 <soundnfury> I've been /trying/ to let go, but Phantom_Hoover doesn't seem to like that idea
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> it's cute how you think you can just act obnoxiously and expect everyone to 'let go'
22:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i vote soundnfury also
22:56:10 <soundnfury> so, how about that other topic of conversation that isn't a pointless argument between me and Phantom_Hoover, eh? <-- if someone can provide one, I'd be grateful
22:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no we'd be perfectly content for you to simply shut up
22:56:43 <kmc> or get kicked
22:56:51 <elliott> i vote both soundnfury and Phantom_Hoover shut up
23:01:12 <ion> http://pandyland.net/random/?comicid=722779190
23:01:19 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that one time I said nonsense in #haskell?
23:01:22 <zzo38> I read somewhere, making up cards of Magic: the Gathering only involving the name of itself and the text of the comprehensive rules. One card is a enchantment called "Nirvana" with text: Goblins cannot reach Nirvana.
23:02:00 <elliott> shachaf: yep
23:02:08 <zzo38> I interpret it to mean that, if this card ever becomes a creature, and gains flying, then the reach ability does not permit other creatures to block it if those creatures have the "Goblin" creature type.
23:03:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:03:46 <kmc> zzo38: nice
23:03:54 <kmc> any other good examples?
23:03:58 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:04:18 <ion> The closest thing to “<shachaf> nonsense” i could find was “<shachaf> What nonsense?” on 2012-11-20.
23:04:35 <shachaf> ion: Don't logread me!
23:05:00 <zzo38> kmc: I don't have other examples, sorry.
23:10:36 * Phantom_Hoover -> sleep
23:10:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:12:59 <kmc> the enchantment itself has to become a creature?
23:13:23 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think it would have to become a creature with flying before its text would have any effect on the game.
23:14:20 -!- nooga has joined.
23:18:24 <Gregor> Quoth Wikipedia: In 1864, Congress authorized a third series of fractional currency notes. The five-cent note was to bear a depiction of "Clark", but Congress was appalled when the issue came out not with a portrait of William Clark, the explorer, but Spencer M. Clark, head of the Currency Bureau. According to numismatic historian Walter Breen, Congress's "immediate infuriated response was to pass a law retiring the five-cent denomination, and another to forbid p
23:18:24 <Gregor> ortrayal of any living person on federal coins or currency."
23:18:32 <Gregor> That guy is the greatest troll in history X-D
23:20:26 <olsner> I'll give that a chuckle and an imaginary slow clap and/or applause
23:25:57 <kmc> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/04/one-in-four-americans-has-an-opinion-about-an-imaginary-debt-plan/
23:31:39 <Bike> PPP is pretty awesome. I like their twitter.
23:32:03 <kmc> oh i didn't even notice it was them
23:32:04 <fizzie> Point-to-Point Protocol?
23:32:13 <kmc> ppppolls
23:32:59 <Bike> Public Policy Polling, I think.
23:33:06 <kmc> haha, they re-tweeted someone asking "Could @ppppolls be any more blatantly biased?"
23:33:21 <Bike> They were retweeting people ranting at them all throughout November.
23:33:26 <kmc> didn't even respond
23:33:29 <kmc> i like their style
23:33:32 <Bike> All the ones about how Romney was totally going to win, etc
23:33:55 <Bike> "(I don't remember getting a single phone call in response to that video, although the crazy voice mails did blend together at some point)"
23:34:05 <kmc> "49% of GOP voters nationally say they think that ACORN stole the election for President Obama. We found that 52% of Republicans thought that ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama, so this is a modest decline, but perhaps smaller than might have been expected given that ACORN doesn't exist anymore."
23:34:20 <Fiora> pffff
23:34:41 <kmc> they also point out that "One reason that such a high percentage of Republicans are holding what could be seen as extreme views is that their numbers are declining"
23:35:00 <kmc> everybody remotely sane is being driven out of the party
23:35:04 <Fiora> did they also record the percentage of people identifying as republican in that poll?
23:35:09 <Fiora> I remember it went down a lot lately
23:35:10 <kmc> it's kind of wonderful as well
23:35:15 <Fiora> it is
23:35:20 <Fiora> it's a fun implosion to watch
23:35:25 <kmc> don't know about that poll specifically but they say it went down from 37% to 32% at the election
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23:51:45 <shachaf> I hird elliott likes vault.
23:52:08 <ion> Death Metal Fat Cat Drum Cover http://youtu.be/yWcak9tZupc
23:52:19 <shachaf> yo elliott, i hird you like vault, so i put a vault in your vault
23:53:14 <ion> I see what you did there.
23:55:40 <shachaf> I don't.
23:55:54 <shachaf> elliott: Remember back when I did that "u mad" thing?
23:56:04 <shachaf> I remember that #esoteric was window 19 in irssi at the time.
23:56:06 <shachaf> Or maybe 18
23:56:07 <shachaf> Now it's 11
23:56:15 <ion> 26
23:56:34 <shachaf> 26 is terrible!
23:57:47 <olsner> what is the significance of the number itself and the fact that you remember it?
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