←2012-12-19 2012-12-20 2012-12-21→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:16 <fizzie> That's not a bad first approximation, though there are .s in many more places than just ends of sentences.
00:00:36 <fizzie> fungot: Do you remember how this style was made?
00:00:36 <fungot> fizzie: 110 if n 0 is displayed normally by the kernal make heavy use of these locations must be selected through this ram for this bit position
00:00:46 <hagb4rd> so you have used a more advanced approach?
00:01:01 <fizzie> I don't remember what I've used.
00:01:52 <fizzie> The "word consisting of a single uppercase letter immediately before the . means it's not a sentence-ending ." can be a useful heuristic too.
00:02:12 <oerjan> the most advanced approach gave him a memory wipe afterwards.
00:02:37 * hagb4rd giggles
00:02:39 <fizzie> Gets "J. Doe" style names right; breaks on poetic sentences that, say, end in I.
00:03:02 <fizzie> Or end in the name of the king Fungot I.
00:03:28 <shachaf> fungot
00:03:28 <fungot> shachaf: if you wish to read the changing output of sid or processed through the kernal
00:03:41 <shachaf> ^style
00:03:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:03:44 <fizzie> `quote end to all
00:03:46 <HackEgo> 449) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
00:03:58 <shachaf> hi fungot
00:03:58 <fungot> shachaf: lfn-the logical file to be eaten, then type this: lx 0 ( medium gray) 152 ( 98) to zero amplitude after the switch. since this table is to establish the makeup of logical lines, or errors that have occurred during the i/ o
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00:56:25 <sgeo> Factor screws up dynamic scoping.
00:57:06 <monqy> oh?
00:57:16 <monqy> is the joke that dynamic scoping is a screw up
00:58:34 <sgeo> No
00:58:49 <sgeo> SYMBOL: foo
00:58:54 <sgeo> SYMBOL: bar
00:59:32 <sgeo> 5 bar [ 3 foo set ] with-variable
00:59:36 <sgeo> Behaves differently fro
00:59:38 <sgeo> *from
00:59:41 <sgeo> 3 foo set
01:00:34 <monqy> is the real question why you'd want to do that
01:00:39 <sgeo> No
01:00:50 <sgeo> Erm, yes, why would you want to behave differently
01:00:56 <sgeo> It can break stuff
01:00:56 <monqy> more of a mystery than a question i guess :-0
01:01:23 <monqy> what sort of stuff
01:01:37 <sgeo> Suppose you write a word that takes in a quotation
01:02:02 <sgeo> Unbeknownst to the quotation, you want to use dynamic scoping for a specific variable, to pass in some stuff to another word you write
01:02:15 <sgeo> If you use this dynamic scoping stuff, it might not remain unbeknownst
01:02:57 <monqy> good thing i don't want to use dynamic scoping
01:03:01 <fizzie> It might instead be rebeknownst.
01:03:25 <Bike> so, the quality of a symbol being dynamically scoped is itself dynamically scoped?
01:04:40 <sgeo> It's more that all variables are forced in a new dynamic scope when you use with-scope. It's like, in a Lisp, let'ing all special variables to their current value every time you let one
01:05:58 <Bike> dynamic scoping sure is excitingn.
01:06:43 <sgeo> I sometimes think it's more essential in Factor than it is in other languages
01:07:35 <Bike> actually yeah why does a stack language even have scope
01:08:43 <sgeo> Because it can be useful sometimes?
01:08:56 <sgeo> Well, there's no lexical scoping unless you use it
01:09:14 <sgeo> (use lexical scoping, I mean)
01:09:49 <sgeo> (Lexical scoping is provided as a library. As is dynamic scoping)
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01:39:25 <sgeo> I still wish I knew what kind of idiot calls a programming language "Factor" in the age of search engines
01:40:14 <zzo38> You.
01:40:31 * sgeo is not Slava Pestov.
01:41:10 <zzo38> Well, I think it is not idiotic I think it is OK. It is you who are over reliance on search engines.
01:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> quiet zzo38
01:49:21 <kmc> avoid success at all costs hurff durff
01:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> is sgeo going on about factor again
01:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> is kmc bringing up a pet peeve
01:49:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: #esoteric exists only in your mind
01:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> is god in his heaven and is all right with the world
01:50:13 <kmc> we are archetypes you have constructed to externalize parts of your own personality
01:50:14 <shachaf> sgeo: You could say that about most any name.
01:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this explains so much
01:50:28 <shachaf> Except Web 2.0y names like "Clojure".
01:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> or 'shachaf'
01:50:48 <monqy> the genius movement of web 2.0y
01:50:54 <monqy> finally we have searchable names?
01:51:08 <shachaf> monqy: symmetric lenses are "pretty cool huh"
01:51:14 <monqy> hi shachaf
01:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, apparently your name means 'seagull'?
01:51:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently it does!
01:51:29 <monqy> guess who didn't follow your advice not to learn lens!!!!!!!
01:51:32 <sgeo> shachaf, does "COBOL" have any other meaning?
01:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> my condolensations
01:51:43 <shachaf> monqy: oh no you learned lens????????
01:51:48 <monqy> only "sort of"
01:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo, it's that corporation in inception
01:51:58 <shachaf> monqy: i saw your ip address getting pr.hs
01:52:02 <monqy> i don't have any experience with lens but i "get it"
01:52:08 <shachaf> "so i kind of knew already"
01:52:16 <monqy> "oops"
01:52:41 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn ordinary lenses or twanvl lenses or symmetric lenses
01:52:43 <kmc> according to the SGEOBE Index, Clojure is still 140% more popular than Factor
01:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> what does that stand for
01:53:04 <shachaf> monqy: btw puzzle!!
01:53:05 <shachaf> class Weird g where foo :: (b -> t) -> ((a -> b) -> s -> t) -> (g a -> b) -> g s -> t
01:53:08 <shachaf> instance Weird Identity where foo mk mp f = mp (f . Identity) . runIdentity
01:53:09 <kmc> but Factor's popularity has surged in recent days
01:53:10 <shachaf> what should Weird be??
01:53:13 <shachaf> instance Weird Proxy where foo mk mp f = mk . f . coerce
01:53:29 <monqy> i learned the twanvl style "lens families"
01:53:34 <monqy> already knew ordinary lenses ages ago
01:53:38 <shachaf> monqy: "excellent choice sir"
01:53:51 <shachaf> but have you considered expanding your knowledge to "symmetric lenses"
01:53:59 <shachaf> (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t
01:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> what about colenses
01:54:14 <monqy> i hear it's useful to use 4 functors instead of just 2!!!!
01:54:21 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: colenses are a special kind of symmetric lenses
01:54:29 <shachaf> monqy: if by useful you mean "the devil"
01:54:36 <monqy> :0
01:54:41 <shachaf> only crazy people use 4 functors
01:55:26 <shachaf> monqy: Anyway, I'm trying to work out what class I need to be isomorphic to ((a -> b) -> s -> t, b -> t)
01:55:48 <shachaf> It seems like Functor g => (g a -> b) -> g s -> t is pretty close.
01:55:54 <shachaf> But Functor isn't strong enough, I think?
01:56:35 <shachaf> I can't figure it out. :-(
01:56:37 <shachaf> I bet it exists.
01:57:33 <shachaf> elliott says that (Functor g => (g a -> b) -> g s -> t) ~ ((s -> a) -> b) -> t
01:58:03 <monqy> is that so :0
01:58:15 <shachaf> monqy: what does that type even mean
01:58:31 <monqy> ((s -> a) -> b) -> t
01:58:38 <shachaf> yes that type
01:58:40 <shachaf> what does it mean
02:00:01 <monqy> it'd help if i could remember what s a b t mean......i dont have enough experience to have memorized them and im sad that the type signatures for these new lenses arent cool enough to express the relationships between them!!
02:00:34 <shachaf> monqy: uh we could express the relationships between them if haskell was cool enough to have type lambdas
02:00:44 <shachaf> even if they were just synonyms not "real lambdas"
02:00:52 <monqy> "guess what haskell doesn't have"
02:01:00 <monqy> "not cool enough to have"
02:01:09 <shachaf> monqy: btw a and b are the same as in traverse
02:01:16 <kmc> i have a radical suggestion: identifiers longer than one character
02:01:17 <shachaf> traverse :: (a -> f b) -> [a] -> f [b]
02:01:26 <shachaf> kmc: I tried. edwardk vetoed it.
02:01:46 <shachaf> monqy: s stands for "structure" or "source" or "state"
02:01:52 <shachaf> t stands for "the letter after s"
02:01:55 <shachaf> (or "target")
02:01:59 <kmc> :(
02:02:12 <shachaf> kmc: s t a b isn't that bad.
02:02:14 <monqy> i personally would have used a' instead of b.....and s' instead of t...........that makes it a bit clearer..........................
02:02:31 <ion> fa fb a b
02:02:31 <shachaf> (a -> a') -> s -> s'?????
02:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> this is the _real_ reason unicode support is important
02:02:34 <shachaf> what are you crazy
02:02:38 <kmc> yes
02:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> can't make do with only 26 letters
02:02:40 <kmc> s and §
02:02:48 <kmc> t and ⊤
02:02:49 <shachaf> s -> ß
02:02:51 <monqy> fa and fb are cool too
02:03:01 <kmc> fi -> fa -> fo -> fum
02:03:06 <shachaf> monqy: but what about (Char -> Char) -> Text -> Text
02:03:13 <monqy> (thumbs up)
02:03:23 <shachaf> monqy: what about
02:03:52 <ion> I’d be fine with “fa”, “fb” mnemonics even with things like Text.
02:03:53 <shachaf> type Lens i o = forall f a b. (i a -> f (i b)) -> o a -> f (o b)
02:04:07 <shachaf> monqy: "btw that totally works in haskell with LiberalTypeSynonyms"
02:04:16 <shachaf> "because theyd get expanded at use site"
02:04:35 <shachaf> "if haskell had anonymous type synonyms this would work ''everywhere''"
02:05:06 <ion> (a -> 𝖺) -> s -> 𝗌
02:05:26 <shachaf> ion: thanks for using non-BMP codepoints
02:05:32 <shachaf> Stupid screen. :-(
02:06:03 <ion> shachaf: putStrLn "(a -> \120250) -> s -> \120268"
02:06:23 <shachaf> Or something.
02:06:27 <shachaf> I already looked it up.
02:06:28 <kmc> sigh
02:07:14 <shachaf> monqy: have you considered using four functors......PLUS a functor transformer.........
02:07:25 <monqy> ive never considered it but elliott sure did
02:07:30 <monqy> i mean
02:07:32 <monqy> using four functors
02:07:38 <monqy> not sure if elliott's considered the transformers
02:07:42 <shachaf> elliott is using a functor transformer too
02:07:46 <monqy> : )
02:07:58 <shachaf> also elliott considered making jokes about five functors
02:08:00 <shachaf> we all did
02:08:15 <monqy> is he using five functors yet
02:08:19 <shachaf> "i dont care if you have to cram the fifth functor in there perpendicular to the other four"
02:08:58 <shachaf> monqy: btw maybe you need four functor transformers
02:09:04 <monqy> :0
02:09:11 <shachaf> (g a -> f b) -> i s -> h t
02:09:18 <monqy> elliott said 4 functors would be nice for indexed types!!!or something like that....is this true
02:09:34 <shachaf> (t1 g a -> t2 f b) -> tt3 i s -> t4 h t
02:09:43 <shachaf> "sorry edwardk i ran out of letters"
02:09:48 <shachaf> also s/tt/t/
02:09:56 <shachaf> monqy: do you mean indexed lenses..........
02:10:08 <monqy> maybe
02:10:13 <monqy> all i remember is "indexed"
02:10:20 <shachaf> indexedfoo:
02:10:27 <shachaf> (i -> a -> f b) -> s -> f t
02:10:46 <shachaf> you would think you can pick g = (i,)
02:11:00 <shachaf> but then you get ((i,a) -> f b) -> (i,s) -> f t
02:11:04 <shachaf> "which makes no sense??"
02:11:09 <shachaf> so you need three functors
02:11:13 <shachaf> and if three why not four
02:11:22 <monqy> why not.........
02:11:51 <shachaf> or eight............
02:11:58 <shachaf> or even infinity functors
02:12:08 <monqy> infinity functors is going too far
02:12:24 <shachaf> monqy: don't worry
02:12:30 <shachaf> countable infinity functors
02:12:38 <shachaf> just א0
02:13:20 <monqy> that's aleph0 too many
02:14:04 <shachaf> monqy: ok just two functors
02:14:24 <shachaf> type Iso s t a b = (Functor f, Functor g) => (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t
02:14:31 <shachaf> "isn't that a beautiful type"
02:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> guys
02:14:53 <Phantom_Hoover> what about
02:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> no functors at all
02:15:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover......
02:15:11 <monqy> you need at least one functor.................
02:15:16 <shachaf> you need to learn about the true spirit of lenses
02:15:18 <Phantom_Hoover> but do yo
02:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> u
02:15:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: um yes
02:15:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: but that functor can be Identity if you like
02:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> you're just a shill for Big Cata
02:16:01 <monqy> what if i want it to be Const r
02:16:12 <monqy> can it be Const r
02:16:53 <shachaf> monqy: omg what about
02:17:06 <shachaf> (Proxy a -> Const r b) -> Proxy s -> Const r t
02:24:31 <hagb4rd> did you know water has about 40 unexplained anomalies? it's the source of all life.. and maybe more. interesting documentation -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SppiDB-hmzY
02:27:53 <kmc> hagb4rd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY7XH2ulTEU
02:28:32 <Bike> kmc what does this even have to do with water, it's about calcium
02:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> it was a tragedy when all the look around you videos got taken down
02:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, calcium is a crucial component of water
02:29:06 <Bike> it's been a while since my o-levels but i distinctly remember water being made of ghosts?
02:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> do you do o-levels in luxembourg
02:29:56 <Bike> well, i lived at the luxembourgish military base in cornwall when i was a teen
02:30:03 <hagb4rd> bike: maybe it really is
02:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover> bike i believe you may be `shitting me'
02:30:17 <Bike> indeed hagbard
02:30:32 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: “shitting” “me”
02:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i was tipped off to your clever deception by the fact that nobody would want to have a base in cornwall
02:31:49 <Bike> well it's the only place the queen would allow it
02:31:58 <Bike> i mean, luxembourg, not exactly a world military power
02:32:20 <Bike> but treaties have to be respected, even if they were signed in the 1300s by specially trained goats.
02:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> nice try, but it would still be a diplomatic disaster if you forced anyone to be in cornwall
02:33:17 <Bike> yeah, i think we seceded once or twice
02:33:42 <Bike> it didn't really succeed because nobody believed we were there anyway, for the reasons you bring up
02:33:50 <Bike> being a luxembourgish military brat is a sad lifestyle :(
02:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> still, at least the other kids couldn't make fun of you for your nationality
02:35:03 <Bike> they tried to call me names but they couldn't think of any good ones
02:35:12 <Bike> eventually they settled on "luxxy" but i don't think their hearts were in it.
02:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and the only stereotypes of luxxys is that they're all really just corporations dodging tax
02:35:54 <hagb4rd> seems like your muse returns finally
02:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> whose muse
02:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> who's the muse
02:36:22 <hagb4rd> bikes muse ..sorry hoover
02:36:38 <Bike> well, uh. i mean, i may have been in england slightly for tax reasons. a little.
02:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> whoah, underlining??
02:37:07 <Bike> it's a lux special
02:37:50 <kmc> still more of a real country than liechtenstein
02:38:13 <kmc> which was a scheme by some austrians to get extra votes in the holy roman imperial reichstag
02:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> at least liechtenstein has that whole last place to give women the vote thing
02:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> that's a whole two stereotypes
02:38:41 <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:38:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: last place in the EU, or what?
02:39:06 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:39:08 <Bike> i thought the last place was like, switzerland... oh right they're not in the EU
02:39:11 <HackEgo> 876) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> last place in the eu
02:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> or maybe in europe in general
02:39:27 <shachaf> On 1 July 1984, Liechtenstein became the last country in Europe to grant women the right to vote. The referendum on women's suffrage, in which only men were allowed to participate, passed with 51.3% in favor.[20]
02:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it's because who the fuck cares if they have the vote in liechtenstein
02:39:52 <kmc> switzerland did not have universal women's suffrage at the canton level until 1990
02:39:56 <Bike> yeah hang on, i thought liechtenstein was a monarchy
02:40:07 <kmc> constitutional monarchy
02:40:14 <Bike> boring
02:40:28 <Bike> san marino was doing that before it was cool and look where they are now!
02:40:46 <kmc> rich as fuck?
02:41:07 <Bike> damn straight
02:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> what about sealand
02:43:28 <kmc> the EU used to be about just coal and steel
02:43:47 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what about it
02:44:04 <Phantom_Hoover> everything
02:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> can't take long to go over it all
02:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> place had what, one revolution?
02:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> and even that didn't last
02:46:52 <kmc> what about bir tawil
02:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> camels
02:47:54 <shachaf> what about #esoteric
02:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the closest thing we've had to a revolution was when lament got pissed
02:48:55 <sgeo> I've been in an IRC channel that had a revolution
02:49:08 <sgeo> Everyone got pissed at the channel owner, and fled to a different network
02:50:49 <shachaf> was it #clojure
02:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> was it #jesus
02:51:05 <c00kiemon5ter> if it was a revolution they would have taken over the channel, not move to another
02:51:26 <hagb4rd> i agree with that c00kiemon5ter
02:54:24 <sgeo> It was #MSPA previously on Stardock now on SwiftIRC
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02:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was.
02:57:46 <Bike> ?
02:58:11 <shachaf> It's not arbitrary!
02:58:18 <shachaf> "north" is obviously "the cooler word"
02:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i
02:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> will defer to shachaf on this
02:58:45 <zzo38> You can know where is north, where is east, etc, by the direction of spinning, isn't it?
02:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> haha
02:58:50 <Bike> well i was just going to say yeah magnets
02:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> 'north' actually derives from the word for 'down'
02:59:31 <Bike> ooh, i should say that next time the topic of lower egypt comes up.
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02:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the way north is considered the fundamental direction
03:00:09 <Bike> It's not that arbitrary. Magnetic compasses, navigation by polaris, etc.
03:00:10 <shachaf> 90% of humans are in the northern hemisphere.
03:00:18 <shachaf> Therefore north is better.
03:00:19 <Bike> though a lot of the latter is due to the fact europeans live in the north.
03:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, counterpoint: it's grim up north
03:00:47 <zzo38> shachaf: And how do you believe humans is better than the rest of the multiverse?
03:00:51 <Bike> it's pretty grim in the south too!
03:00:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Um, I'm human.
03:01:04 <shachaf> "that should be enough"
03:01:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but I do not think that should be enough.
03:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
03:01:24 <shachaf> You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern!
03:01:26 <shachaf> That is enough.
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03:03:00 <zzo38> But I thought the north/south/east/west is according to the rotation of a sphere?
03:03:15 <Bike> Not historically.
03:03:43 <Bike> If you want to look at the terms and their usage you'd have to go to the people who actually needed to give a damn, i.e., cartographers and ship navigators.
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03:03:59 <zzo38> Perhaps, but now we can change it, just as we can do with the other units of measurement.
03:04:05 <hagb4rd> originally it was the movement of the sun along the sky.
03:04:39 <Bike> well, phantom_hoover was talking about "how arbitrary [it] was"
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03:05:00 <Bike> so, more relevant to blather about shipping than to blather about lojban
03:05:34 <hagb4rd> i can imagine that north comes from down, as long as there is no real up and down..
03:05:52 <hagb4rd> but there is east and west
03:05:53 <zzo38> Down is the direction of the gravitational force.
03:06:06 <c00kiemon5ter> so up is down too
03:06:07 <Bike> what is the true nature of the west
03:06:24 <hagb4rd> the sun goes down there
03:06:27 <c00kiemon5ter> west is where the sun sets
03:06:34 <Bike> thank you for your explanation, compatriots
03:06:56 <hagb4rd> you're welcome
03:08:48 <zzo38> Zero longitude is also arbitrary but they chose one point, and now according to astronomy it is even if the continents move, according to rotation of the Earth you know exactly which one it is anyways.
03:10:12 <zzo38> However, at least with ecliptic longitude, that is different from geographic longitude, so ecliptic has an intersection point with the equator do define the zero point.
03:12:28 <zzo38> How they should define the geographic zero longitude today should be, according to the hour angle of the sun is _____ at J2000, for example.
03:12:50 <Bike> That's not very constant.
03:13:29 <hagb4rd> it changes due to the precession isn't it?
03:13:40 <hagb4rd> every 26k years
03:14:09 <hagb4rd> aquarius!
03:15:51 <zzo38> Well, yes the equinox point changes due to precession, but that depend if you use the equinox of current date, or of reference date. If that is what you mean.
03:17:08 <hagb4rd> aw i actually wanted to figure out what you mean.. but yes
03:17:48 <zzo38> The Sanskrit word for the amount of precession is "ayanamsha". You say it is Aquarius; well, you may have heard of the "Age of Aquarius", but really the definition of the astrological age is not agreed on; either it is [1] the negatave ayanamsha, or [2] the constellation of vernal equinox point. But in case [1] you still need a reference date!
03:19:35 <hagb4rd> well how can be there one word for the absolute amount of precession?
03:19:53 <zzo38> You still need a reference date.
03:20:20 <hagb4rd> yes.. i thought that's what you mean by j2000
03:20:26 <hagb4rd> but i must have been wrong
03:21:25 <zzo38> J2000 is the reference date.
03:21:53 <zzo38> At least, J2000 is reference date most commonly used in astronomy today.
03:22:07 <hagb4rd> great
03:23:48 <hagb4rd> i remember you've been working on some kind of astronomy program.. didn't you? have you deployed it zzo38?
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03:24:31 <zzo38> No, I have not even written it, I don't have the library and program and stuff to write it.
03:25:32 <hagb4rd> a pity.. how is that?
03:25:55 <zzo38> I tried to find it, ask someone, but I cannot find anything sufficient which is what I am trying to make.
03:26:02 <kmc> "now according to astronomy it is even if the continents move" <--- well, you still need to agree on what the shape of the earth is, and there are various competing models of that
03:27:38 <hagb4rd> hm right!.. not obvious but actually true
03:27:47 <zzo38> kmc: O, well, at least you can try... I made a slight mistake.
03:28:20 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/gxRap.jpg?1
03:28:48 <Bike> wow.
03:29:42 <Bike> "C++ makes it easier, I guess, to do things right" this is rather more unprofessional than i would expect from a modern programming textbook shachaf!
03:29:53 <shachaf> That's not a textbook.
03:29:55 <zzo38> There is not a date on this quotation?
03:29:58 <hagb4rd> is that kind of a historical source? it belongs to museum
03:30:07 <shachaf> Bike: http://imgur.com/a/Nbp70#0
03:30:38 <hagb4rd> 1993..okay
03:31:05 <Bike> pretty intense
03:31:12 <hagb4rd> so it might not be influenced by precession
03:31:23 <shachaf> I like how the headline says "Objects: A silver bullet?" and then when you read the text it says "This object-oriented approach is not a silver bullet"
03:31:35 <Bike> it's like the usual headline rule, i suppose
03:31:41 <shachaf> Yep.
03:31:52 <Bike> except conveniently located all on the same page!
03:32:00 <kmc> http://cdn2.damnfunnypictures.com/qwsk5cy-WasDarwinWrong001.jpg
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03:32:19 <Bike> you have to admire their commitment to negativity though, kmc.
03:32:26 <Bike> they used a whole third of a page!
03:32:46 <shachaf> «"We see virtually all C development moving to C++ over the next two to three years." -- Bill Gates»
03:33:03 <shachaf> I guess they managed that by getting rid of their C compiler and using a C++ compiler for C code.
03:33:10 <kmc> «Fuck you, I saved like a million lives» -- Bill Gates
03:33:11 <zzo38> Darwin may have been wrong about a few things.
03:33:21 <Bike> now that's innovation! -- shachaf
03:33:40 <kmc> he was certainly in the dark on many things, like the biochemical basis of heritable traits
03:34:08 <hagb4rd> zzo38 it's not that we know about the evolutionary processes for sure.. but all in all he was right yes
03:34:08 <Bike> darwin's theory on heritable traits was great though. little invisible things of sand
03:34:20 <shachaf> But on the other hand he had a pretty good barnacle collection.
03:34:33 <shachaf> Probably better than Bike's barnacle collection.
03:34:49 <Bike> it is :(
03:34:51 <zzo38> hadb4rd: It is what I mean, he may be correct in general but wrong in some details.
03:35:13 <Bike> his worm collection is also to be envied
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03:36:43 <kmc> http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/18/163181524/charles-darwin-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-day
03:37:37 <Bike> i like the art
03:37:38 <shachaf> > has (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:37:41 <lambdabot> False
03:37:42 <shachaf> > hasn't (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:37:44 <lambdabot> True
03:37:48 <shachaf> Er...
03:38:11 <shachaf> > M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] ^.. _at 'a'
03:38:13 <lambdabot> [1]
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03:38:19 <shachaf> @undefine
03:38:29 <kmc> status: finnish national anthem stuck in head
03:38:40 <shachaf> > has (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:38:42 <lambdabot> True
03:38:46 <shachaf> kmc: The Finnish one or the Swedish one?
03:38:58 <shachaf> > hasn't (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:39:00 <lambdabot> False
03:39:01 <kmc> just the tune since i don't know either language
03:39:14 <shachaf> I thought it was two different tunes.
03:39:33 <shachaf> I could be wrong. :-( I should probably know that...
03:41:18 <sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora
03:43:26 <kmc> i'm not sure
03:44:53 <kmc> solanum tuberosum
04:00:23 <kmc> "Man arrested after smoking, drinking in ATM"
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04:14:03 <Arc_Koen> coppro: OK, just watched stargate continuum. now THAT was a stargate movie
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04:17:26 <Gregor> That was a good'n.
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04:36:35 <zzo38> CsoundMML is now made.
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04:39:29 <sgeo> of time?
04:40:35 <zzo38> What time?
04:44:59 <sgeo> Sorry, bad joke based on Homestuck
04:45:10 <sgeo> (There's a character who can be referred to as the "Maid of Time")
04:50:00 <zzo38> OK
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06:51:42 <zzo38> I have corrected a few defects in CsoundMML, and have added an example of "Sakura Sakura", played using plucked strings (the "wgpluck" opcode).
07:14:50 <zzo38> What color of decorations did you use for Christmas decoration today?
07:33:55 <shachaf> monqy: hi
07:34:02 <shachaf> monqy: did you see my semisymmetric lenses
07:45:03 <monqy> :o
07:45:38 <shachaf> @djinn ((a -> b) -> s -> t) -> (Identity a -> b) -> Identity s -> t
07:45:39 <lambdabot> f a b c =
07:45:39 <lambdabot> case c of
07:45:39 <lambdabot> Identity d -> a (\ e -> b (Identity e)) d
07:55:57 <monqy> shachaf: are they good
07:56:18 <shachaf> monqy: so good :')
07:57:28 <monqy> o. good.
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09:52:13 <AnotherTest> Hello
09:52:24 <hagb4rd> hi
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10:30:42 <AnotherTest> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=W4mwjdFf
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11:09:14 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think your program involves undefined behaviour. :/
11:09:39 <AnotherTest> aha
11:09:41 <AnotherTest> interesting
11:09:46 <AnotherTest> where exactly?
11:09:51 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
11:10:12 <fizzie> You include a header (<iostream>) and the token "const" is lexically identical to a keyword (const).
11:10:17 <Jafet> Undefined behaviour is behaviour that you get to define
11:10:25 <Jafet> !!!
11:10:32 <AnotherTest> I think it's fine as long as you don't use the keywords
11:10:38 <fizzie> It's not "fine".
11:10:41 <AnotherTest> Is something a keyword if it's not used as one?
11:11:06 <AnotherTest> also, that define is after the include
11:11:09 <fizzie> It doesn't say "but it's fine if you don't use the keywords" in the standard.
11:11:11 <AnotherTest> so it will not affect the include
11:11:19 <fizzie> That also doesn't help.
11:11:43 * Jafet puts the handcuffs on AnotherTest
11:12:43 <fizzie> It doesn't limit the restriction like the C standard does.
11:13:28 <AnotherTest> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12286691/keywords-redefinition-in-c-c
11:13:38 <fizzie> In C it's: "The program shall not have any macros with names lexically identical to keywords currently defined prior to the inclusion of the header or when any macro defined in the header is expanded."
11:14:12 <fizzie> Oh, so they've made it even more impermissible in C++11?
11:14:42 <AnotherTest> it seems
11:15:08 <AnotherTest> I just deny the standard and it's fien
11:15:11 <AnotherTest> *fine
11:15:26 <AnotherTest> It still /works/
11:16:12 <AnotherTest> g++ complains only if I use the keyword
11:16:59 <AnotherTest> Why is this allowed in C and not in C++ anyway?
11:17:13 <AnotherTest> It appears that the C standard says:
11:17:18 <AnotherTest> The above tokens (case sensitive) are reserved (in translation phases 7 and 8) for use as keywords, and shall not be used otherwise.
11:17:57 <AnotherTest> So, in C++, keywords are always reserved (including in the preprocessing phase?)
11:18:55 <fizzie> In C++11; in C++03 they're not reserved unless you include a header.
11:19:26 <fizzie> Also, I don't have a new enough C++ compiler to compile the thing. :/
11:19:41 <fizzie> I did get a stack trace out of my clang though.
11:19:44 <fizzie> FWIW.
11:19:44 <Jafet> Improving C++ programs by making it harder to write standards-conforming obfuscated C++.
11:19:44 <AnotherTest> Yeah, I think you need at least gcc 4.7
11:20:24 <AnotherTest> I just -illegally- downloaded the C++11 standard
11:20:29 <AnotherTest> I must see this for myself!
11:21:12 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/GaAO -- not that I can be bothered to file a bug, I'm sure it's fixed already.
11:21:20 <AnotherTest> I can't see the point of not allowing this
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11:22:00 <Jafet> Standards-conforming C http://codepad.org/xVFNe2LP
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11:26:16 <AnotherTest> Yep
11:26:18 <AnotherTest> it's correct
11:26:21 <AnotherTest> Page 451
11:26:23 <AnotherTest> 7 Identifiers that are keywords or operators in C++ shall not be defined as macros in C++ standard library
11:26:23 <AnotherTest> headers.176
11:26:34 <AnotherTest> oh wait
11:26:40 <AnotherTest> in the standard library
11:26:48 <AnotherTest> I'm not writing the standard library
11:28:07 <AnotherTest> I cannot find it anywhere else really
11:28:19 <fizzie> Did you check the paragraph mentioned in the SO question?
11:28:22 <oerjan> i thought they burned that page
11:28:26 <fizzie> That is, Macro names [macro.names].
11:30:16 <AnotherTest> That is the part about libraries
11:31:13 <AnotherTest> aha
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> 1 This section describes restrictions on C++ programs that use the facilities of the C++ standard library.
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> The following subclauses specify constraints on the program’s use of namespaces (, its use of
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> various reserved names (, its use of headers (, its use of standard library classes as base
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> classes (, its definitions of replacement functions (, and its installation of handler functions
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> during execution (
11:32:03 <AnotherTest> A translation unit shall not #define or #undef names lexically identical to keywords, to the identifiers listed
11:32:04 <AnotherTest> in Table 3, or to the attribute-tokens described in 7.6.
11:32:23 <AnotherTest> You cannot #undef them
11:32:36 <AnotherTest> why would you want to if you can't #define them?
11:33:06 <Jafet> What if your compiler implements them as macros
11:33:07 <Jafet> !!
11:33:21 <AnotherTest> What if they're not in a translation unit?
11:33:30 <AnotherTest> Although guess that'd be impossible to achive
11:33:32 <AnotherTest> *achieve
11:33:34 <fizzie> Some of the "identifiers listed in Table 3" might be macros you'd want to #undef.
11:34:22 <AnotherTest> "A translation unit that includes a standard library header shall not #define or #undef names declared in
11:34:22 <AnotherTest> any standard library header."
11:34:33 <AnotherTest> I did that so many times before
11:34:45 <AnotherTest> like when you want to get rid of a C macro that wrecks your code
11:37:02 <AnotherTest> Anyway, the good news is "that use the facilities of the C++ standard library."
11:37:15 <AnotherTest> So that means, if I don't use the standard library
11:37:18 <AnotherTest> it doesn't matter
11:37:22 <AnotherTest> because it's in that section
11:37:29 <oerjan> clearly what we need are hygienic C++ macros.
11:38:38 <Jafet> Use Dettol after writing one
11:38:50 <AnotherTest> Aha
11:38:52 * oerjan cannot decide whether "are" is correct in that sentence
11:39:08 <AnotherTest> They definitely make a difference between either the C standard library
11:39:12 <AnotherTest> and the C++ standard library
11:39:37 <AnotherTest> so if I use C's IO facilities, it should be fine
11:40:22 <AnotherTest> "The C++ standard library also makes available the facilities of the C standard library, suitably adjusted to
11:40:23 <AnotherTest> ensure static type safety." So that's definitely not the same thing.
11:40:55 <Jafet> But you can't use the C standard library in C++. You can only use the facilities of the C standard library.
11:41:12 <AnotherTest> No you can
11:41:19 <AnotherTest> Since you can include C code
11:41:22 <AnotherTest> and it might just work
11:41:47 <AnotherTest> For example, if I did #include "stdlib.h"
11:42:03 <Jafet> extern "C++03" {
11:42:27 <AnotherTest> extern "NonStandardC++" {
11:43:22 <AnotherTest> the reality is, that there is probably no single compiler that's going to complain
11:48:05 <oerjan> @tell bike Hey San Marino is _so_ not a monarchy hth
11:48:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:49:22 <AnotherTest> If gcc works, it's fine
11:49:26 <AnotherTest> who said that again
11:51:53 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was. <-- did you know maps used to have east up
11:52:27 <oerjan> oh he's not here either
11:52:46 <oerjan> @ask Phantom_Hoover <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was. <-- did you know maps used to have east up
11:52:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:54:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think it was some early American president?
11:54:38 <oerjan> "If gcc works, it's fine" -- James Buchanan
11:56:53 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
11:57:01 <HackEgo> 877) <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
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12:00:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I deobfuscamated your code, incidentally.
12:03:19 <fizzie> (I probably shouldn't spoil it, though.)
12:07:48 <oerjan> <kmc> status: finnish national anthem stuck in head <-- MOOOMMMY, I'VE GOT THE FINNISH NATIONAL ANTHEM STUCK IN MY HEAD
12:09:49 <Jafet> `quote oerjan
12:09:51 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 16) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 19) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird
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12:51:27 <fizzie> "1 jobs" -- Condor can't do plurals.
12:52:42 <oerjan> well apple also did the 1 jobs thing
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13:21:18 <Fiora> sgeo: update
13:28:43 <AnotherTest> fizzie: PM me
13:28:50 <AnotherTest> (the result)
13:29:00 <AnotherTest> (and yes, it was probably not too hard)
13:32:24 <shachaf> Fiora: Are you again awake or still awake?
13:33:11 <Fiora> again awake, kinda. didn't sleep that well
13:33:32 <shachaf> Better than I did.
13:33:51 <shachaf> At least I made semisymmetric lenses work!
13:34:30 <AnotherTest> fizzie: You must admit that the text was well chosen though.
13:35:16 <Fiora> might see if I can sleep more later...
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13:41:49 <sgeo> Taneb, Fiora didn't ping you so I will (not an update other than what Fiora said)
13:42:07 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you too
13:42:11 <sgeo> See what Fiora said
13:42:30 <Taneb> Thanks
13:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora was just invoking the sgeo update system.
13:42:48 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:43:07 <AnotherTest> fizzie: TIP: for decoding the hidden message, only look at alphanumeric characters
13:47:43 <Fiora> ROSE: Mom? ROXY: mom?
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13:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> urk
13:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> forgot about the damn morse code
13:59:03 <Fiora> you can just copy paste it into a morse code converter
13:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i know but that's work and boring and complicated
14:06:11 <AnotherTest> Does anyone know here of software that automagically draws UML diagrams when given a C++ program?
14:06:14 <sgeo> There's a bookmarklet
14:06:37 <AnotherTest> s/program/source
14:07:09 <AnotherTest> Oh, and preferably free
14:07:24 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, http://morseless.me.uk/
14:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> i know but that's work and boring and complicated
14:07:42 <sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/151prk/just_in_time_to_not_be_useful_my_attempt_at_a/
14:07:50 <sgeo> It's only work 1 time
14:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, a bookmarklet!
14:08:10 <sgeo> Use it then hover over the morse
14:12:51 <AnotherTest> Is "dia" any good?
14:19:30 <fizzie> The diagramming tool?
14:19:39 <fizzie> It's possible to use it, but it at least has been kinda horrible.
14:19:55 <AnotherTest> oh okay
14:20:07 <AnotherTest> Well I found this thing called "autodia"
14:20:11 <AnotherTest> http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk/opensource/autodia/
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14:20:24 <AnotherTest> It claims to generate UML diagrams from C++ source code
14:21:45 <AnotherTest> although I don't really feel like using this on a 25 000 line project, because I suspect that it might just erase the whole thing or something worse
14:25:07 <Deewiant> No backups, no ability to take a temporary copy?
14:26:07 <AnotherTest> I do have backups, but it still is annoying
14:26:25 <AnotherTest> and I only backup like once a week
14:26:54 <AnotherTest> I'm going to try this on something else first
14:31:03 <AnotherTest> this actually wokred
14:31:05 <AnotherTest> *worked
14:34:05 <AnotherTest> well it doesn't seem to work recursively
14:34:13 <AnotherTest> but I can probably fix that by writing a script
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14:50:48 <GreyKnight> `addquote <c00kiemon5ter> so up is down too
14:50:52 <HackEgo> 878) <c00kiemon5ter> so up is down too
14:52:46 <AnotherTest> well this is taking a while. I guess Perl is fast enough
14:53:05 <AnotherTest> *isn't
14:54:24 * GreyKnight zaps Perl with a wand of speed monster
14:55:54 <AnotherTest> I have maybe 25 files of about 1000 lines of code each here, and it's taking over 20 minutes already
14:56:19 <AnotherTest> well, maybe not over 20 min, but definitely 20 min
14:56:50 <AnotherTest> and my computer is making strange noises
14:57:52 <GreyKnight> how long are these lines, and are they written in mortal Perl or arcane "entire program on each line" format?
14:58:03 <AnotherTest> They're written in C++
14:58:10 <AnotherTest> the program parsing them is Perl
14:58:27 <GreyKnight> ah
14:58:44 <GreyKnight> C++... that explains it :o)
14:59:04 <AnotherTest> I'd say about 35 characters per line
14:59:07 <AnotherTest> (average)
14:59:09 <GreyKnight> maybe you have an infinite loop in templates ;-)
14:59:25 <AnotherTest> I had that before
14:59:36 <AnotherTest> although I'm not compiling at the moment
15:00:18 <GreyKnight> oh, just parsing?
15:00:35 <AnotherTest> Well, I'm trying to use "autodia" to generate a UML diagram of the code
15:02:18 <AnotherTest> So I think that's just parsing
15:02:24 <AnotherTest> and draw too ofcourse
15:02:38 <AnotherTest> but since that's just writing XML, I doubt that's a big deal
15:02:59 <AnotherTest> (It hasn't started doing that too)
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15:05:21 <GreyKnight> hm surely Perl should be really good at this, odd parsing behaviour of C++ nonwithstanding
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15:08:57 <AnotherTest> I'm going to abort this
15:09:08 <AnotherTest> it's probably stuck in some loop or something
15:10:29 <AnotherTest> "Use of uninitialized value $line in pattern match (m//) at /usr/share/perl5/Autodia/Handler/Cpp.pm line 334, <INFILE> line 95."
15:10:32 <AnotherTest> Yes, it was
15:10:57 <AnotherTest> great so it doesn't work
15:12:38 <AnotherTest> It works for 4 files, but not for 25
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15:20:14 <GreyKnight> @ask oerjan "did you know maps used to have east up" You mean back in the dwarves' day??
15:20:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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15:41:12 <MDue> Nah, back in earlier versions of Minecraft, before Notch changed which direction of the world the sun rose on.
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15:43:37 <GreyKnight> I think they just fixed the map surely?
15:43:44 <GreyKnight> I did find that amusing though
15:44:24 <GreyKnight> "Er guys the maps have east at the top..." "Oh... well, I can't be bothered fixing it, let's just claim the sun rises in the North." "Brilliant!"
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15:52:14 <ais523> the sun rises in the east, by definition
15:52:21 <ais523> that's actually how "east" is defined on arbitrary planets
15:54:19 <sgeo> ais523, how would East be defined on a large space station meant for long-term habitation
15:54:25 <sgeo> Like those O'Neill Cylinder things?
15:54:44 <GreyKnight> depends if Mojang are in charge or not :v
15:55:09 <ais523> sgeo: that's not a planet, I'm not sure it has an east
15:55:28 <AnotherTest> ais523: Pluto is not a planet, but it has an east
15:55:35 <ais523> hmm
15:55:42 <ais523> I guess if the space station rotates
15:55:45 <ais523> it has an east
15:55:48 <AnotherTest> it does
15:56:17 <AnotherTest> well it depends of course what you mean with rotate
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15:56:34 <AnotherTest> You probably meant around itself
15:56:45 <AnotherTest> in that case, I'm not entirely sure
15:57:07 <ais523> I think what I mean is that it doesn't constantly have the same side facing the sun
15:57:26 <AnotherTest> well, then rotation around the earth is good
16:04:09 <MDude> What about on a planet that always has the same side facing the sun, like Uranus?
16:04:50 <ais523> MDude: I don't think it has compass directions
16:04:55 <ais523> because it doesn't have poles either
16:04:59 <ais523> and probably doesn't have a magnetic field
16:05:07 <AnotherTest> The space station doesn't have poles either?
16:05:25 <ais523> if it rotates, it at least has geographical poles
16:05:50 <AnotherTest> Uranus does rotate
16:06:48 <GreyKnight> just wonky :-U
16:07:06 <MDude> It rotates on an axis at a near-perpindicular angle to the plane that it orbits on.
16:07:22 <GreyKnight> just to confuse everybody
16:07:29 <AnotherTest> a year just takes 84323326 days
16:07:39 <GreyKnight> Mercury is tidally locked, isn't it?
16:07:47 <MDude> But I guess since it's not exactly at 90 degrees, there might be some space at the equator where there's some day/night.
16:08:58 <GreyKnight> oh, no, it's at 3:2 resonance
16:08:58 <AnotherTest> From wikipedia: East is the direction toward which the Earth rotates about its axis, and therefore the general direction from which the Sun appears to rise.
16:09:08 <AnotherTest> I don't think there is east on other planets
16:09:28 <GreyKnight> (so it has three days for every two years)
16:09:32 <AnotherTest> unless you can replace earth with something else there
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16:10:13 <AnotherTest> The word east is derived from the Proto-Germanic *aus-to- or *austra- "east, toward the sunrise", from PIE *aus- "to shine," or "dawn".
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16:17:17 <sgeo> wat
16:17:23 <sgeo> I love "He Has No Face"
16:17:27 <sgeo> Just found a review of it
16:17:36 <sgeo> "Another track nicely written but not as remarkable as other works by Skaven."
16:21:14 <elliott> hi
16:21:33 <GreyKnight> hi
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16:25:38 <sgeo> VLC is all Christmasy
16:32:18 <AnotherTest> Yes, I noticed that too
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16:47:48 <Taneb> Hmm
16:48:11 <Taneb> rosalind.info is kinda like Project Euler but with genetics instead of maths
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17:04:21 <sgeo> You know a movie's bad when Wikipedia's plot summary has a sentence beginning with "Eventually, and inexplicably,"
17:04:40 <sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_on_a_Train
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17:05:41 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Snakes on a train!
17:05:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
17:05:58 <sgeo> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/snakes_on_a_train/
17:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> was a tossup between asylum and sequel
17:06:54 <sgeo> Asylum
17:07:14 <kmc> "Eventually, and inexplicably, she herself transforms into a gigantic snake and swallows the moving train whole. Six passengers managed to escape unharmed and one of them performs magic to make her vanish."
17:07:19 <kmc> (spoiler alert)
17:07:38 <sgeo> Which I hadn't heard of until someone in another channel started talking about Megafault
17:08:28 <sgeo> A movie in which people manage to outrun an earthquake.
17:08:56 <elliott> I want to see Asylum's sherlock
17:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember half-watching a disaster movie where the heroes stop a tsunami by setting off a bomb and creating another, equally big tsunami going the other direction.
17:09:57 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Sherlock_holmes_by_asylum_film_poster.jpg
17:10:30 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Megafault they do something similar but with earthquakes, I think
17:10:45 <sgeo> 'Justin yells at the driver to stop the truck. The driver replies, No way! Theres an earthquake on our tail! '
17:10:59 <quintopia> are these syfy original movies? they are known for crap like that
17:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo, i want to see a volcano movie where they do thaty
17:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> *that
17:11:41 <quintopia> beendun
17:13:11 <GreyKnight> This monkey will swiftly scamper to safety: http://pbfcomics.com/135/
17:14:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't work in practice, two tsunamis can pass through each other
17:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523 do you not think i know how waves work
17:15:00 <ais523> I don't know
17:15:14 <ais523> do you get a lot of waves in Hexham?
17:15:18 <GreyKnight> What would a hoover know about waves
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17:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> do you get a lot of waves in birmingham?
17:20:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, not many
17:20:19 <ais523> you get them in the canals
17:20:23 <kmc> gravity waves
17:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> waves goodbye
17:21:41 <GreyKnight> /me failure
17:25:12 <GreyKnight> @tell zzo38 It turns out there was some caching going on when I connected to the Internet via my phone (connecting via another Internet connection solved the "can't root page" problem)
17:25:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:58:35 <elliott> 11:14:42: <AnotherTest> it seems
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:08: <AnotherTest> I just deny the standard and it's fien
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:11: <AnotherTest> *fine
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:26: <AnotherTest> It still /works/
17:58:51 <elliott> AnotherTest: then it's not a C++ program
17:59:04 <elliott> and you don't know it'll work on any compiler or compiler version or machine except the exact one you're using
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18:21:56 <AnotherTest> elliott: It probably will. Compilers actually don't check whether or not you're using the standard library facilities. (Defining keywords as macro names is allowed in that case).
18:22:19 <elliott> AnotherTest: "compilers actually don't" -- you have no idea how an arbitrary compiler behaves
18:22:46 <elliott> maybe you mean "I can't think of a compiler that does", or "I would never write a compiler that does", or "I assume nobody would ever write a compiler that does", but those are all totally different
18:22:47 <AnotherTest> elliott: Well, I do, and preprocessing and compiling are often not connected
18:22:57 <elliott> and if you make any assumptions about arbitrary compiler writers then you haven't seen enough fucked up ones yet
18:23:25 <ais523> it's a pity the DS9K doesn't actually exist
18:23:30 <ais523> then we could use it as an example
18:23:34 <ais523> (well, we use it as an example anyway, but…)
18:23:48 <AnotherTest> elliott: and if I had to pick, I'd be the latter of your options
18:24:35 <elliott> ais523: there are enough systems that loosely approximate various aspects of DS9Ks
18:24:42 <ais523> yes
18:24:50 <AnotherTest> remember, if gcc works, it's fine (someone, possibly some former president)
18:24:56 <elliott> anyway the easiest thing is to let AnotherTest get bitten by an assumption of sanity on a system's part
18:25:03 <olsner> what's DS9K?
18:25:09 <elliott> AnotherTest: you should see the gcc bugs.
18:25:23 <AnotherTest> elliott: No thanks, I don't have the time for that
18:25:33 <elliott> AnotherTest: or the two very popular desktop computer operating systems whose main compiler is not gcc-based
18:25:34 <ais523> olsner: a hypothetical platform (architecture + toolchain) that's as insane as possible while still complying with the letter of all relevant standards
18:25:39 <elliott> (OS X and Windows; the former even a UNIX)
18:25:58 <ais523> what's the main compiler on OS X nowadays? clang?
18:26:00 <olsner> ah, I've been wanting something like that too, didn't know it already had a name
18:26:03 <elliott> ais523: yes
18:26:03 <ais523> it /used/ to be gcc, IIRC
18:26:12 <AnotherTest> elliott: clang works too!
18:26:14 <elliott> apple dropped gcc because of gpl v3 iirc
18:26:15 <ais523> olsner: the name is "deathstation 9000", "ds9k" is just the usual abbreviation
18:26:28 <ais523> elliott: yep, I remember something about that
18:26:30 <elliott> AnotherTest: sorry -- you mean clang v[full version number] on [my architecture] and [my OS] with [my system header files] and [...]
18:26:46 <elliott> there is absolutely no guarantee that clang will decide to keep this working in the future
18:26:49 <AnotherTest> elliott: I didn't use clang myself.
18:27:04 <elliott> if you want to depend on it then you want some kind of statement of support
18:27:08 <elliott> for instance, a standard
18:27:16 <elliott> not that compilers are terribly great at following the C or C++ standards
18:27:20 <AnotherTest> elliott: What I did is also not considered undefined behavior. What I did is simply not allowed according to the strict standard.
18:27:25 <zzo38> But clang has partial GNU mode, isn't it?
18:27:25 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:27:28 <elliott> but when they don't it is something you can, you know, actually report as a bug
18:27:32 <zzo38> ?messages
18:27:32 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 1h 2m 20s ago: It turns out there was some caching going on when I connected to the Internet via my phone (connecting via another Internet connection solved the "can't root page"
18:27:32 <lambdabot> problem)
18:28:10 <AnotherTest> elliott: So my operating system and system header files don't actually matter.
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18:28:50 <AnotherTest> Also, my architecture will also not matter
18:29:09 <elliott> 18:27:20 <AnotherTest> elliott: What I did is also not considered undefined behavior. What I did is simply not allowed according to the strict standard.
18:29:19 <elliott> I find this a bit unlikely
18:29:26 <AnotherTest> Look it up in the standard
18:29:26 <elliott> almost everything you're not allowed to do in C is UB, for instance
18:29:42 <elliott> I don't see why you bring it up anyway, since this strengthens my position and weakens yours
18:29:53 <elliott> and no, you *don't know* your architecture will not matter
18:29:58 <elliott> all you are making is baseless assumptions
18:30:26 <AnotherTest> I do, because CPP is going to behave the same regardless of any supported architecture for all defined behavior
18:30:58 <elliott> ...
18:31:05 <elliott> it's not defined behaviour if your program is simply invalid
18:31:20 <ais523> AnotherTest: huh? there are incompatibilities between CPPs on even basic stuff
18:31:32 <ais523> perhaps the best known example is " #include <stdio.h>" with the leading whitespace
18:31:43 <AnotherTest> ais523: Yes, but what is defined will work
18:31:49 <AnotherTest> Those are simply extensions
18:31:54 <ais523> AnotherTest: even if it's defined to not work?
18:31:58 <AnotherTest> they do not change the behavior of something that has been defined
18:32:00 <elliott> dude
18:32:06 <elliott> "this is invalid, not UB, therefore it's defined behaviour"
18:32:07 <AnotherTest> What I did was defined to work
18:32:10 <elliott> this argument is completely incoherent
18:32:15 <ais523> what did you do, anyway?
18:32:26 <ais523> I think we can possibly understand this argument better by removing several layers of indirection
18:32:55 <AnotherTest> Define a keyword as a macro name in a program that uses the standard library facilities
18:33:14 <elliott> what you did was not "defined to work"
18:33:16 <elliott> the standard disallows it
18:33:18 <elliott> it's as simple as that
18:33:28 <AnotherTest> Which is not allowed by a "restriction" on programs using the stdlib
18:33:38 <AnotherTest> So it is defined to work if you don't use the stdlib
18:33:57 <elliott> 11:09:51: <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
18:34:07 <AnotherTest> So it is defined for ALL C++ programs, but the usage is restricted
18:34:15 <elliott> 11:09:51: <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
18:34:19 <AnotherTest> elliott: Look a bit further
18:34:30 <AnotherTest> I actually looked that up in the final draft, and it said something else
18:34:35 <olsner> all this talk about what's allowed and not... I don't think the C or C++ standards have been given the power to "allow" or "disallow" anything - they just say stuff about what a (standard) C or C++ compiler might do when presented with your code
18:34:36 <AnotherTest> (that very paragraph)
18:34:46 <elliott> 11:32:03: <AnotherTest> A translation unit shall not #define or #undef names lexically identical to keywords, to the identifiers listed
18:34:50 <elliott> 11:32:04: <AnotherTest> in Table 3, or to the attribute-tokens described in 7.6.
18:34:53 <elliott> if you mean
18:34:54 <elliott> 11:26:23: <AnotherTest> 7 Identifiers that are keywords or operators in C++ shall not be defined as macros in C++ standard library
18:34:57 <elliott> 11:26:23: <AnotherTest> headers.176
18:35:00 <elliott> then it's irrelevant
18:35:21 <AnotherTest> And that was in the section for programs using the facilities of the standard library
18:36:38 <AnotherTest> so I assume that everything under that section (especially if stated in paragraph 1 of that section) only applies to those cases
18:36:53 <elliott> you included <iostream>, that's part of the standard library...
18:37:14 <AnotherTest> Yes, so the restriction is indeed there
18:37:19 <AnotherTest> but that doesn't mean it's UB
18:37:33 <ais523> yeah, "shall not" = constraint violation = UB
18:37:39 <AnotherTest> Any compiler that does not include the restriction will compile my program
18:37:59 <elliott> AnotherTest: I don't think you understand the terms you are using
18:38:08 <elliott> or, what ais523 said
18:38:15 <elliott> if you "shall not" do something but you did it then you have no guarantees
18:38:17 <elliott> you have a not-a-program
18:38:18 <AnotherTest> Then why do they state explicitly when something is undefined behavior?
18:38:20 <elliott> it is not defined to work
18:38:34 <ais523> AnotherTest: err, they don't; sometimes they state something to be UB explicitly, but much more often they state it implicitly
18:38:44 <AnotherTest> It's defined to work for all C++ programs, but you can't do it(It's an error) in some cases
18:38:46 <ais523> there's a section near the start explaining what counts as implicit UB (basically, anything disallowed or anything that is not define)
18:38:51 <ais523> *defined
18:39:00 <elliott> AnotherTest: time to bring out the old cliche: [citation needed]
18:39:06 <elliott> you have no basis whatsoever for that definition, you're just making shit up
18:39:40 <AnotherTest> Regardless of that, if you think logically about this; you will come to the conclusion that this must work on compilers that do not implement this restriction (which is almost all compilers)
18:40:03 <ais523> elliott: do you know whether, if you do #define a b, and then #define c a, expanding c will produce a or b?
18:40:11 <elliott> AnotherTest: no, that's not logic, that's just making assumptions
18:40:11 <c00kiemon5ter> that's irrelevant
18:40:15 <elliott> you have no idea what logic is
18:40:20 <elliott> well
18:40:23 <ais523> AnotherTest: imagine something in <iostream.h> is a macro that expands to something that happens to contain a keyword
18:40:24 <elliott> it's either a tautology or an assumption
18:40:27 <Deewiant> AnotherTest: "this must work on compilers that do exactly what I want on this piece of undefined behaviour"
18:40:39 <ais523> now imagine you've defined that keyword to something else
18:40:42 <elliott> ais523: don't you mean <iostream>?
18:40:42 <ais523> then use that macro later on
18:40:51 <Deewiant> AnotherTest: Which might be almost all compilers, but still.
18:40:52 <ais523> elliott: yes, I do, but I learned C++ before the .h got removed
18:40:52 <elliott> ais523: the definition comes after the #include in AnotherTest's program
18:40:54 <elliott> but it's irrelevant
18:40:55 <c00kiemon5ter> so you're saying that your program work everywhere - but it is implementation defined behavior - because of a violation that compilers do not account for
18:41:06 <AnotherTest> ais523: I include at the top, that can never happen anyway so it's irrelevant
18:41:07 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to work out if that matters or not atm
18:41:08 <c00kiemon5ter> yeah, will work *everywhere*
18:41:19 <elliott> ais523: what if <iostream> defines something as a macro that uses const?
18:41:21 <kmc> IEC ain't nothin' to fuck wit
18:41:29 <elliott> I think by cpp's semantics AnotherTest's const macro will apply when that gets expanded
18:41:35 <ais523> elliott: yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make
18:41:42 <elliott> right
18:41:43 <ais523> thanks for making it for me
18:41:47 <elliott> so it can very well fuck up in practice
18:41:59 <elliott> in before AnotherTest says "it's ok because no compiler that doesn't do that would do that, so it's fine"
18:42:03 <AnotherTest> elliott: It cannot because it does not.
18:42:08 <elliott> what
18:42:13 <AnotherTest> Try it, it does not
18:42:16 <elliott> ...
18:42:17 <elliott> on your system
18:42:20 <AnotherTest> you cannot implement a compiler that makes it fuck up
18:42:21 <elliott> do you understand standards
18:42:22 <elliott> or abstractions
18:42:23 <elliott> or anything
18:42:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: but you realise it would be possible to write an <iostream> where it /does/ screw up?
18:42:25 <elliott> or are you just trolling
18:42:31 <AnotherTest> You can only restrict the behavior
18:42:36 <elliott> wtf
18:42:39 <elliott> you're just spewing random crap
18:42:43 <ais523> and that, some day, on a system where you run the program, you might come across an implementation which does use such an <iostream>?
18:42:46 <elliott> do you have any idea what anything you are saying actually means
18:42:52 <AnotherTest> ais523: No because you have to write iostream according to the standard too
18:43:17 <ais523> AnotherTest: and the standard allows iostream to use const in macro expansions
18:43:18 <AnotherTest> ais523: There are restrictions as to macros in <iostream> itself
18:43:27 <elliott> anyway it's totally irrelevant whether <iostream> can fuck it up or not
18:43:30 <elliott> since it's not a program
18:43:33 <ais523> there are restrictions, but that is not one of them /because of the part of the standard elliott quoted/
18:43:36 <elliott> so it doesn't even matter!
18:43:37 <AnotherTest> ais523: but what macro will you define?
18:43:50 <AnotherTest> You can't just define some random macro in iostream
18:43:53 <ais523> AnotherTest: I don't have the contents of <iostream> memorized
18:44:01 <ais523> but there are quite possibly things in there that are defined to be macros
18:44:08 <ais523> just like "stdin" and "getc" are macros in <cstdio>
18:44:10 <AnotherTest> So on what basis are you speaking
18:44:34 <ais523> (glibc actually does "#define stdin stdin" in <cstdio> because stdin is defined to be a macro, so it makes sure it's a macro)
18:44:38 <AnotherTest> ais523: Those happen to be coming from C, where macros are more common
18:44:57 <AnotherTest> The C++ standard tries to avoid macros for sure
18:45:14 <elliott> here's another way it can fuck up!
18:45:24 <elliott> the compiler is allowed to reject a program if it violates the standards
18:45:25 <elliott> the end
18:45:58 <elliott> for instance I am pretty sure the compiler is allowed to, say, implement "const" by, after preprocessing the entire program,
18:46:01 <AnotherTest> yes, I agree with that
18:46:07 <elliott> replacing every use of "const" as a keyword by ____my_compilers_fun_const_macro
18:46:07 <AnotherTest> but almost no compiler will do that
18:46:20 <ais523> there are actually sets of options you can give to gcc to make it screw up noticeably on certain types of undefined behaviour, for instance
18:46:23 <elliott> and then re-preprocessing with #define ____my_compilers_fun_const_macro const
18:46:30 <elliott> and also your existing #define const or something
18:46:36 <elliott> anyway it's pointless trying to come up with a tortured example
18:46:46 <ais523> which exist specifically for the purpose of diagonising issues like this
18:46:57 <kmc> ais523: cool, which ones?
18:47:22 <ais523> kmc: there's --pedantic, most famously; also various specific warning options
18:47:28 <ais523> that you can use in combination with -Werror
18:47:33 <AnotherTest> ais523: I compiled with --pedantic
18:47:42 <ais523> yeah but it isn't perfect
18:48:03 <elliott> it's -pedantic
18:48:03 <AnotherTest> There is no option for gcc that blocks this to my knowlegde
18:48:07 <AnotherTest> *knowledge
18:48:09 <kmc> oh i thought you meant beyond -pedantic -Wall -Werror -Wextra
18:48:15 <elliott> also gcc's -pedantic doesn't mean -check-for-validity
18:48:21 <AnotherTest> elliott: I just click a little box in my ide really
18:48:21 <elliott> it means -emit-the-stuff-the-standard-demands-we-emit
18:48:42 <elliott> protip: your IDE doesn't know the standard and can't verify conformance for you
18:48:53 <AnotherTest> elliott: I didn't say it did
18:48:55 <elliott> in fact, whether a program is standards-compliant for C or C++ is undecidable, I think
18:49:19 <kmc> "Issue all the warnings demanded by strict ISO C and ISO C++; reject all programs that use forbidden extensions, and some other programs that do not follow ISO C and ISO C++."
18:49:44 <AnotherTest> Well it doesn't even warn me
18:50:04 <ais523> Some users try to use `-pedantic' to check programs for strict ISO C conformance. They soon find that it does not do quite what they want: it finds some non-ISO practices, but not all--only those for which ISO C _requires_ a diagnostic, and some others for which diagnostics have been added.
18:50:07 <zzo38> I have made version 10 of FurryScript, which adds a command for story text.
18:51:00 <kmc> actually there are a few ways to use gcc extensions even with -pedantic
18:51:10 <AnotherTest> ais523: in C it would be valid, the only language in which it is not is C++11
18:51:18 <elliott> kmc: because glibc does?
18:51:25 <kmc> yeah for header files
18:51:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: and why does that matter?
18:51:38 <elliott> protip: it's not a valid C program because it uses C++ features
18:51:40 <elliott> like <iostream>
18:51:46 <AnotherTest> ais523: Because you were talking about C
18:51:56 <ais523> AnotherTest: I am quoting from the gcc documentation
18:52:07 <ais523> specifically, if that's talking about C, it means that -pedantic is only intended for C
18:52:08 <AnotherTest> elliott: it was not referring to the program, but to the definition of keywords as macro names
18:52:13 <ais523> so why are you using it for a C++ program?
18:52:22 <kmc> i suppose -fstack-protector is another flag that makes gcc screw up noticably on certain types of undefined behavior
18:52:30 <ais523> yes
18:52:40 <kmc> and, uh, -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
18:52:42 <olsner> hmm, if you let some template expansion control whether or not the program does something undefined, then compliance should be undecidable due to the turing complete templates
18:52:42 <ais523> also, whatever that complex series of options are that make it do bounds checking
18:52:47 <AnotherTest> ais523: because g++ is a C++ compiler I assume that it works for C++ too
18:52:54 <ais523> and double-free detection
18:53:12 <ais523> AnotherTest: so why are you criticising me for quoting its documentation at you and its documentation only referencing C?
18:53:21 <elliott> olsner: simpler than that
18:53:23 <olsner> but there may be other reasons it's undecidable, of course
18:53:25 <kmc> olsner: does the standard specify a maximum template recursion depth?
18:53:31 <elliott> olsner: if (foo(n)) { n / 0; }
18:53:34 <kmc> a minimum maximum, if you will
18:53:40 <AnotherTest> ais523: I'm not
18:53:49 <elliott> olsner: if (see_if_it_halts(tm)) { n / 0; }
18:53:53 <elliott> or something
18:54:03 <elliott> well, that doesn't really prove undecidability
18:54:06 <elliott> but it's obvious
18:54:27 <olsner> the problem with runtime checks is that C is decidable/not turing complete?
18:55:19 <ais523> runtime checks are normally OK, you can only complain that the program's doing something illegal when it actually does it
18:55:24 <ais523> rather than have to prove totality or the like
18:56:10 <elliott> olsner: oh hmm, I guess that tm one does prove it
18:56:17 <elliott> since if the program doesn't halt it never divides by 0 and is therefore OK
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18:56:27 <elliott> re: TCness, hmm, maybe yeah
18:56:31 <elliott> it's effectively undecidable :)
18:56:37 <AnotherTest> anyway, the only flag that's going to detect the error I made, is going to be one for the preprocessor, not for the actual compiler itself
18:56:49 <ais523> elliott: btw, is dividing by 0 actually UB?
18:56:58 <ais523> it strikes me as the sort of thing C99 liked defining
18:57:13 <elliott> ais523: I believe so
18:58:01 <ais523> oh wow, thanks Unity
18:58:15 <ais523> normally it takes a while to find whatever copy of the C standard I have lying around
18:58:23 <ais523> in this case, it was alt+super, type "n1", first result
18:58:28 <ais523> I like it when it does things like that
18:58:55 <ais523> <C11> In both operations, if the value of the second operand is zero, the behavior is undefined.
18:58:58 <ais523> OK, is still UB
18:59:19 <olsner> what's the minimum size of a pointer in C? 8 bits?
18:59:43 <ais523> I don't think 0 bits is technically illegal
18:59:54 <ais523> actually, probably is, it'd violate implementation limits
19:00:17 <ais523> the standard doesn't put any lower requirement on it directly, apart from it's a multiple of CHAR_BIT and CHAR_BIT is at least 8
19:00:54 <AnotherTest> Does -1 counts as an allowed factor?
19:00:55 <Deewiant> Probably sizeof has to be nonzero, or something?
19:00:59 <AnotherTest> *count
19:01:08 <olsner> maybe you could have a single byte of memory, with every pointer pointing to the same byte
19:01:10 <elliott> hmm, is sizeof void valid?
19:01:15 <elliott> and if so, what do we know about its result?
19:01:18 <kmc> are (a+0) and (a+1) required to be distinct for array a
19:01:30 <elliott> olsner: I think you're guaranteed to be able to create more storage than that in C
19:01:31 <AnotherTest> elliott: If it has one, it should be 0
19:01:34 <ais523> let me check the translation limits
19:01:43 <ais523> elliott: it's not valid, it's trying to take the size of an incomplete type
19:02:11 <ais523> it's the same as writing "struct FILE; printf("%d",(int)sizeof FILE);"
19:02:19 <kmc> foo.c:4:27: warning: invalid application of ‘sizeof’ to a void type [-pedantic]
19:02:24 <elliott> ais523: right
19:02:27 <kmc> result is 1 on my system
19:02:37 <AnotherTest> So compilers like gcc-4.5 work
19:02:40 <ais523> yeah, I think gcc used to define sizeof void as 1
19:02:42 <AnotherTest> https://ideone.com/3fLeLm
19:02:44 <kmc> void is an incomplete type?
19:02:46 <ais523> as an extension
19:02:47 <ais523> kmc: yes
19:02:51 <kmc> cool
19:02:55 <elliott> 1, really
19:03:00 <elliott> I guess because (void *) ~ (char *)
19:03:05 <elliott> so you can say sizeof(*voidptr)
19:03:11 <kmc> i guess that means "void a[5]" is also disallowed
19:03:18 <elliott> right
19:03:30 <ais523> olsner: for hosted implementations, it appears to be 16 bits
19:03:37 <AnotherTest> You can always do sizeof(pointer type) I htink
19:03:40 <ais523> there's no way to meet the translation limits otherwise
19:03:43 <ais523> actually, hmm, no
19:03:50 <kmc> and you can declare but not define a function that takes a void parameter?
19:03:52 <ais523> only at least one program has to meet the limits
19:04:02 <ais523> kmc: I think so, actually, unless there's a special reason not to
19:04:06 <ais523> actually no
19:04:10 <ais523> I think for incomplete types
19:04:16 <ais523> you can declare pointers to them, but not the types themselves
19:04:23 <olsner> oh, so you could allow a single special program access to 64kB of memory, while not letting any other programs do that?
19:04:23 <ais523> and ofc it's fine to have a function that takes a void* parameter
19:04:27 <ais523> olsner: yep
19:04:27 <kmc> foo.c:1:12: warning: parameter 1 (‘x’) has void type [enabled by default]
19:04:27 <kmc> foo.c:3:12: error: parameter 1 (‘x’) has incomplete type
19:04:36 <kmc> yeah "pointer to incomplete type" is a complete type
19:04:50 <kmc> this is like the foundation of abstract data in C :D
19:05:23 <kmc> is there a way to write "pointer to function of unspecified type"
19:05:27 <ais523> olsner: well I don't see anything here that guarantees that, in general, sizeof(char*) is positive
19:05:39 <elliott> ais523: sizeof returns size_t, right?
19:05:42 <elliott> or do you mean it could be0
19:05:43 <elliott> *be 0
19:05:46 <ais523> kmc: no, sadly; void(*)() works in practice, because it's freely interconvertible with other sorts of function pointer
19:05:50 <ais523> as long as you don't try to execute it
19:05:53 <ais523> elliott: I mean it could be 0
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19:06:00 <ais523> at least, I can't see anything actually forbidding that
19:06:10 <kmc> oh well
19:06:13 <ais523> admittedly such an implementation would be kind-of useless in practice
19:06:43 <ais523> you could probably only implement it with one of those compilers that looks for #error directives, and if it doesn't see any, prints "Diagnostic!" and returns EXIT_SUCCESS, with no other side effects
19:06:56 <ais523> (this is infamous for being a strictly conforming C implementation)
19:07:09 <kmc> does it have to print "Diagnostic!"
19:07:20 <ais523> well, it has to print /a/ diagnostic
19:07:23 <ais523> in case of UB
19:07:27 <kmc> ah
19:07:32 <ais523> *in case of constrant violations
19:07:35 <ais523> *constraint
19:07:43 <ais523> some UB, the compiler is responsible for warning about
19:08:07 <ais523> (this is what gcc's -pedantic is for; it's for warning about UB that it's its duty to detect and warning about, but that the gcc devs feel isn't a problem in practice)
19:08:16 <kmc> yeah
19:08:29 <ais523> and it's much easier to print a very generic diagnostic
19:08:33 <ais523> than to work out which need to be printed
19:08:55 <olsner> ds9k's C compiler could have a "fast compile" mode that does exactly that
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19:09:15 <elliott> ais523: the diagnostic is exiting with status 0, obviously
19:09:27 <elliott> can it use that diagnostic for #error, too?
19:09:35 <olsner> hmm, does it have to *print* a diagnostic?
19:09:48 <ais523> elliott: #error is the only thing that has to make the compiler fail
19:09:59 <ais523> whereas it has to succeed on strictly conforming programs
19:10:15 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's entirely clear that success and failure states have to be distinguishable, but most people assume that they do
19:10:46 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/aKgb
19:11:11 <elliott> ais523: hmm
19:11:22 <elliott> ais523: and it's not just UB to use #error or anything?
19:11:25 <elliott> I guess that would be weird
19:11:39 <ais523> nope, #error is the one special case where the program has to absolutely be rejected
19:12:04 <ais523> I remember Borland C++ only ever did "Fatal" and halt the compilation immediately, rather than "Error" and keep going, upon a missing input file, or a #error directive
19:12:20 <ais523> (that is, "keep going" in the make -k sense)
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20:09:11 <fizzie> "A preprocessing directive of the form # error pp-tokens_opt new-line causes the implementation to produce a diagnostic message that includes the specified sequence of preprocessing tokens."
20:09:37 <fizzie> So it can't be just a generic "Diagnostic!". (Though you could argue what "produce" means.)
20:09:50 <zzo38> fizzie: OK.
20:09:51 <elliott> so you need an ASCII output or whatever to compile C? :/
20:10:27 <Deewiant> You need to be able to output what you're able to take as input.
20:10:28 <zzo38> But what if the program is encoded with EBCDIC?
20:10:36 <fizzie> I think it still counts as "producing" if you encode the tokens in some reversible way.
20:10:57 <fizzie> (As a matter of personal opinion, that is.)
20:11:28 <elliott> Deewiant: really?
20:11:37 <elliott> do you mean, just because of that thing
20:11:39 <elliott> or because of something else
20:11:57 <Deewiant> Isn't that sufficient? Combined with the fact that strings are pp-tokens.
20:12:08 <fizzie> I don't know where ais523's comment about "has to absolutely be rejected" came from; I don't see anything in at least this section saying it needs to do anything else than produce the diagnostic, much like any constraint violation.
20:12:15 <zzo38> I made a program which encodes floating point numbers as six bytes; is that good enough?
20:14:27 <kmc> is there any judiciary body which has the authority to rule on compliance with the C spec?
20:16:40 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but I don't like all of the changes they made to the new one. Does ISO do compliance? Will Open Group do?
20:17:08 <olsner> kmc: you mean besides #esoteric?
20:17:28 <kmc> :D
20:18:30 <zzo38> olsner: O, yes, I forgot that one.
20:20:54 <fizzie> For some reason my mouse wheel occasionally stops working in Google Maps.
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20:27:06 <fizzie> Well, that's stupid. I used to have -- in fact, still have -- a printscreen keybinding in XMonad to run "gnome-screenshot -i", the interactive mode; but something else has walked all over that and made print-screen just take a full-all-screens screenshot and dump it in ~ with a default timestamp-based name.
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20:30:29 <zzo38> Does Linux console do anything with print screen key?
20:30:49 <fizzie> I don't think it does anything special.
20:31:08 <fizzie> If you don't count producing some kind of a key code.
20:45:44 <zzo38> I think Linux does use System Request, though.
20:46:30 <sgeo_> Alt-SysRq
20:46:38 <sgeo_> REISUB
20:47:08 <sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
20:47:13 <sgeo_> The magic SysRq key is a key combination understood by the Linux kernel, which allows the user to perform various low-level commands regardless of the system's state. It is often used to recover from freezes, or to reboot a computer without corrupting the filesystem.[1]
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20:55:54 <oerjan> @messages
20:55:54 <lambdabot> GreyKnight asked 5h 35m 41s ago: "did you know maps used to have east up" You mean back in the dwarves' day??
20:56:14 <oerjan> @tell GreyKnight No.
20:56:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:52:57 <coppro> Arc_Koen: yes. yes it was
21:53:04 <coppro> also, what does "Arc" stand for?
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21:53:29 <Bike> can't it just mean "arc"
21:53:30 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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21:53:58 <Bike> @tell elliott it did indeed h
21:53:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:55:25 <elliott> did i say something
21:55:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:55:29 <elliott> thanks'
21:55:30 <elliott> @messages
21:55:31 <lambdabot> Bike said 1m 32s ago: it did indeed h
21:55:35 <elliott> oops the ' went wrong
21:55:36 <elliott> *thank's
22:03:51 <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now
22:05:16 <kmc> the mayans warned us
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22:06:14 <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice?
22:06:26 <kmc> yes
22:07:01 <fizzie> It has been December 21st for six minutes or so here now.
22:07:06 <fizzie> Well, seven.
22:07:27 <zzo38> Even though it is, that doesn't make it the winder solstice yet.
22:07:31 <Bike> i hope that mayans have big parties planned to celebrate the b'ak'tun slash mock americans
22:07:44 <kmc> 'It is important to note that Earth does not move at a constant speed in its elliptical orbit. Therefore the seasons are not of equal length: the times taken for the sun to move from the vernal equinox to the summer solstice, to the autumnal equinox, to the winter solstice, and back to the vernal equinox are roughly 92.8, 93.6, 89.8 and 89.0 days respectively.'
22:07:49 <kmc> hmm, i had no idea
22:08:08 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now <kmc> the mayans warned us <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice? <kmc> yes
22:08:12 <HackEgo> 879) <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now <kmc> the mayans warned us <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice? <kmc> yes
22:08:49 <Bike> «Scenarios suggested for the end of the world include the arrival of the next solar maximum, an interaction between Earth and the black hole at the center of the galaxy,[9] or Earth's collision with a planet called Nibiru.» wow, i didn't realize they were going to be things that would be so easy to see coming
22:09:17 <kmc> what about neutrinos from the sun causing the earth's core to become superheated
22:09:18 <zzo38> Even disregarding the different speeds, it still is not perfectly aligned with the calendar, which is why we have leap years.
22:09:40 <Bike> kmc: is that from some movie
22:10:01 <kmc> yes
22:10:44 <kmc> "President Wilson is later killed by a megatsunami that sends the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy crashing into the White House"
22:10:46 <Bike> «on 13 August 3113 BC the Earth began a passage through a "galactic synchronization beam" that emanated from the center of our galaxy» i've been missing out
22:10:55 <Bike> haha, what?
22:10:58 <oerjan> <Bike> can't it just mean "arc" <-- no it needs to be something archetypical
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22:11:05 <kmc> that is a thing that happens in the film
22:11:17 <Bike> wait, is this that 2012 movie?
22:11:28 <kmc> yes
22:11:33 <kmc> neutrinos
22:11:35 <Bike> i remember seeing the little clip about einstein saying the continents would... come... loose? something appropriately insane
22:11:36 <kmc> shit-tons of them
22:11:59 <coppro> my only regret will be having bonitis
22:12:05 <kmc> ++
22:12:12 <kmc> my only regret is that i have no regrets
22:13:02 <Bike> «the 2012 date has been loosely tied to the long-running concept of the Photon Belt, which predicts a form of interaction between Earth and Alcyone, the largest star of the Pleiades cluster.[120] Critics have argued that photons cannot form belts»
22:13:06 <kmc> maybe this end of the world business is a good excuse to buy alcohol
22:13:19 <kmc> hahaha
22:13:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_14/solsticehoroscope.png
22:13:59 <Bike> « there is an immense belt of photons orbiting around the Pleiades. According to some New Age beliefs, Earth will pass through this belt of photons, resulting either in humanity's elevation to a higher plane of existence, the end of the world, or both»
22:14:09 <olsner> the photons' toolmaking skills are not likely to be up to making belts
22:14:14 <Bike> seriously you could just, look outside? notice the pleiades are way the fuck over there
22:14:27 <kmc> i love the use of "critics have argued" to describe basic facts about the world
22:14:31 <Bike> zzo38: how does one read this?
22:15:08 <Bike> «Some media outlets have tied the fact that the red supergiant star Betelgeuse will undergo a supernova at some point in the future to the 2012 phenomenon.[122] However, while Betelgeuse is certainly in the final stages of its life, and will die as a supernova, there is no way to predict the timing of the event to within 100,000 years» wikipedia's really good as a straight man, really.
22:15:18 <kmc> yes
22:15:37 <zzo38> Bike: The circle shows the ecliplic longitude of the object represented there.
22:15:59 <Fiora> "On 21 December 2011, the Maya town of Tapachula in Chiapas activated an eight-foot digital clock counting down the days until the end of b'ak'tun 13, while in Izapa, a nearby archaeological site, Maya priests burned incense and prayed." marketing_to_tourists.gif
22:16:05 <zzo38> The actual distance differs but they are shown all on one circle; if you included the distance, then it won't fit on the page, or will be impossible to read.
22:16:15 <Bike> Fiora: now that's what i'm talking about.
22:16:26 <kmc> is that an actual gif
22:16:41 <Bike> zzo38: I know my astrological sign. How do I get this chart to tell me my soulmate's favorite band?
22:16:46 <zzo38> It is the b'ak'tun 13, though, even if it is not the end of the world.
22:16:48 <Fiora> (un)fortunately no? XD
22:17:14 <zzo38> Bike: It probably can't, unless you put your soulmate's favorite band on there.
22:17:18 <Bike> it's pretty sad how people don't realize that the mayans didn't just suddenly disappear
22:18:34 <Bike> "The molecules, these being iron, phosphorus, calcium, copper, nitrogen, carbon, starch, etc., etc., would be completely modified due to this radiation. This means that you will see a change in matter." this photon belt stuff is so intriguing
22:19:01 <zzo38> Bike: And are you sure of your astrological sign? For the same reason as leap year, the sun sign won't be exactly the same calendar date every year.
22:19:43 <Bike> sure enough to pay astrologists money!
22:20:30 <zzo38> You can figure it out for free using various computer programs; you do not have to pay.
22:21:01 <Bike> I think you're missing out on a big market for zzo38computer here, man.
22:21:41 <zzo38> If you want me to mail you a copy, then of course I will charge you for that. But other than that, I won't.
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22:24:13 <zzo38> For example, the coordinates for the winter solstice (in the northern hemisphere) will be 0 Capricorn, regardless of the date it occurs. This year, it is 11:11 AM GMT on December 21
22:24:30 <zzo38> (As can be seen easily by the horoscope, if you know how to read it)
22:24:37 <Bike> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/index.htm
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22:43:00 <Arc_Koen> coppro: it means "bow" in french
22:43:22 <Arc_Koen> I use to have "arc-en-ciel", which is french for rainbow, as my nick
22:44:07 <zzo38> My brother mentioned, it is like the Y2K; the Mayans did not write their calendar up to as we have not programmed our computer up to 2000, for example.
22:44:17 <coppro> Arc_Koen: ... it doesn't mean "bow"
22:44:18 <coppro> it means "arc"
22:44:20 <zzo38> And people thought also of Y2K, that the world will end.
22:44:33 <coppro> or arch
22:44:46 <Arc_Koen> ...yeah ok
22:44:47 <coppro> "arc-en-ciel" translates literally to "arch in sky"
22:44:50 <oerjan> bow de triumph
22:44:52 <Arc_Koen> but it also means bow
22:45:07 <Bike> bow, arch, what's the diff
22:45:12 <Arc_Koen> it's not really arch, though
22:45:15 <elliott> barch
22:45:22 <Arc_Koen> I've always thought of it as "arc" from "arc de cercle"
22:45:23 <elliott> famous composer
22:45:25 <coppro> haha
22:45:31 <Arc_Koen> (a subset of a circle?)
22:45:37 <oerjan> that's actually "triumfbuen" in norwegian, btw
22:45:42 <coppro> Arc_Koen: an arc is the correct English term as well
22:45:44 <Bike> we call those arcs here in amurrica, arc_koen
22:45:54 <oerjan> (where bue means both bow and arch)
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22:46:09 <coppro> Arc_Koen: I was more taken aback by the lack of a military rank
22:46:15 <coppro> Arc_Koen: also, continuum *is* a movie
22:46:47 <oerjan> zzo38: heh i recently explained it to a friend in a similar way
22:46:55 <Arc_Koen> well you can take "arc" to be the rank from the clone army in star wars
22:47:09 <Arc_Koen> (it's the reason I kept it that way)
22:47:16 <Arc_Koen> but yeah, continuum was great :)
22:47:37 <Arc_Koen> though I kinda dislike that habit they have to mess with the timeline with no effect
22:47:37 <Bike> i'm imagining mayan rock-circle based computers short circuiting.
22:47:53 <Arc_Koen> I mean, the stargate activated in a boat while nobody knew what it was, in 1939??
22:48:00 <Arc_Koen> that's gotta change the way the stargate program went
22:48:12 <zzo38> oerjan: OK
22:49:03 <coppro> Arc_Koen: I could believe that it didn't much
22:49:27 <coppro> but yeah
22:49:51 <Arc_Koen> and Mitchell left in the past? what if he encounters a girl and have children and stuff
22:52:08 <elliott> blah blah butterfly effect blah blah
22:56:30 <Arc_Koen> elliott: I don't think there's such a thing as the butterfly effect when talking about ~80 ans
22:56:35 <Arc_Koen> 80 years*
22:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> they didn't have butterflies then
22:57:18 <coppro> haha
22:57:39 <olsner> besides, butterflies don't live that long
23:01:16 * elliott isn't sure what Arc_Koen means.
23:03:28 <olsner> arc probably just means arc, not sure about the "koen" part
23:03:48 <Arc_Koen> thank you olsner
23:08:09 <olsner> happy to help
23:09:19 <Phantom_Hoover> what's with torrents of tv shows that have random swings in quality
23:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean between seasons i can get, but the farscape torrent i was using went from mediocre resolution to postcard-sized about 3 episodes into season 3
23:14:02 <kmc> perhaps it is a biting commentary on the sensory decline which must accompany us all in our inexorable march toward the grave
23:24:13 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i've read a theory about time travel/butterfly effect which is particularly sensitive - by considering the exact timing of human sperm cells, you can argue that after a very short while, essentially _no one_ will be born who was born in the previous timeline.
23:24:39 <Arc_Koen> hmm
23:24:48 <Arc_Koen> how short is "very short"?
23:25:00 <oerjan> not much longer than 9 months :P
23:25:15 <Arc_Koen> for instance, if your time-travel takes place in america, then how long before it affects asia?
23:25:20 <oerjan> you just need timings to be a fraction of a second off
23:26:09 <oerjan> hm i guess it might not spread as fast in space...
23:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the effect of radiation on the upper atmosphere should be enough
23:28:04 <oerjan> (i didn't mean _outer_ space in case that was unclear, just as opposed to time)
23:28:40 <Arc_Koen> today: the speed of butterflies in vacuum
23:29:04 <kmc> perhaps the exact subset of genes you get from your father is not so important though
23:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> it kind of is
23:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> which sperm cell fertilises an egg also affects the entire embryological development process
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23:33:21 <oerjan> insane idea: explaining the fermi paradox by saying that time travel butterfly effects destroy any civilization by turning their timeline into a paradoxal chaos as soon as it becomes advanced enough to observe signs of another similar civilization, as a kind of interstellar infection
23:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> that uh
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> is quite insane
23:33:54 <kmc> dazed and confused, but trying to continue
23:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> mostly because the necessary time travel is quite absent
23:34:24 <elliott> clearly any civilisation ends as soon as it discovers time travel
23:34:31 <elliott> because some joker goes back and fucks up everything
23:34:40 <elliott> this implies time travel is somehow spatially local I guess
23:34:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, only one planet needs to actually discover time travel... the others are destroyed just by observing the effects
23:34:52 <elliott> hm maybe that can actually be true? for a certain value of spatially
23:35:01 <elliott> because information propagates slowly enough or something
23:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> well it propagates at the speed of life
23:35:15 <coppro> elliott: the problem with time travel is it also needs to include space travel
23:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> *light
23:35:25 <coppro> if I go back six months odds are good I will be suffocating
23:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: exactly
23:35:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty slow
23:35:43 <elliott> if you take large enough disatnces
23:35:44 <elliott> *distances
23:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, still don't get it
23:36:06 <Bike> man, we're gonna be like, the last civilization to bite it? that's so uncool.
23:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> from what you've said the observations would still be causal?
23:36:20 <elliott> so maybe at a long enough distance the "interference" is low enough that if someone goes back in time in such a way that the present changes, the whole present universe doesn't get wiped over
23:36:24 <elliott> just part of it and it sort of ripples out
23:36:28 * elliott pseudoscientist extraordinaire
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23:37:59 <Jafet> I am the ghost of time travel past. Be saved and repent!
23:38:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:38:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but you are observing another planet whose timeline is completely chaotic and constantly modifying itself by paradox - which causes your own timeline to do the same from that point on
23:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, but that's using the hopelessly-inconsistent doctor who model of time travel
23:38:45 <oerjan> well duh :P
23:39:00 <elliott> that works with my model. sor tof.
23:39:02 <elliott> *sort of.
23:39:16 <elliott> any paradox would be spatially localised and ripple out somehow!!
23:39:43 <Bike> you should also make them temporally localised and ripply, to get the full time travel movie effect.
23:42:20 <zzo38> Once I read in some book, ask the question: If you were out of the universe and traveled into five minutes ahead, what would happen? I thought of the same answer they have, but I also think they are wrong.
23:42:50 <Bike> zzo38, are you French?
23:42:59 <zzo38> Bike: No.
23:43:06 <Bike> I see.
23:43:19 <elliott> what was their answer
23:43:24 <oerjan> afair he's canadian and not even a french-canadian
23:43:37 <olsner> canadian!?
23:43:41 <coppro> zzo?
23:43:50 <elliott> `quote at Canada
23:43:51 <HackEgo> 377) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
23:43:53 <zzo38> elliott: You will be in outer space, with no air to breathe.
23:44:11 <elliott> zzo38: what does "out of the universe" mean?
23:44:12 <Bike> He just reminds me of a person I know elsewhere. I was wondering if the typing style was related to a common language or something.
23:44:25 <oerjan> elliott: i should point out that was almost certainly not why i was filled with mystery, as i knew he was canadian before then. i think.
23:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, he speaks a language all of his own
23:44:28 <elliott> I believe zzo38 is a native English speaker?
23:44:46 <Bike> hm.
23:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> that it and english are somewhat mutually intelligible is but a happy coincidence
23:45:06 <Bike> sometimes i want to ask people why they write the way they do, but it would probably be very rude for me to do so in most cases
23:45:12 <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:45:20 <Bike> so, thanks for mostly annihilating that fear there, phantom_hoover
23:45:34 <zzo38> Bike: I don't care; I think you should ask a question if you want to learn.
23:45:49 <Bike> noted.
23:47:26 <Bike> i feel i should mention that it's actually more that you're the only person i've seen using the AGPL than any writing quirks
23:47:30 <Bike> *only other
23:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> you are talking to someone who prefers gopher
23:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> and plain tex
23:49:30 <Bike> yes, exactly, this other person does the same sort of thing
23:50:28 <elliott> `quote gopher
23:50:30 <HackEgo> 285) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
23:50:31 <elliott> `quote \btex
23:50:33 <HackEgo> 238) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons. \ 710) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it i
23:50:39 <elliott> `quote \btex\b
23:50:41 <HackEgo> 238) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
23:50:48 <Bike> that's amazing
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23:51:29 <quintopia> `addquote <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:51:33 <HackEgo> 880) <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:51:45 <quintopia> canadian english is my favorite language
23:51:46 <zzo38> Bike: What other person, and who does the same sort of things as what?
23:52:09 <Bike> i don't actually know anything about canadian English dialects, now that I think about it. of course i barely know anything about my own dialect
23:53:18 <Bike> zzo38: uses the AGPL, sometimes uses obscure and old protocols instead of newer ones because they feel those protocols are better, i don't know how to describe it more
23:53:39 <Bike> @google canadian english
23:53:41 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_English
23:53:41 <lambdabot> Title: Canadian English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:54:06 <fizzie> Canadian English, is that like an euphemism for something nasty?
23:54:11 <Bike> "Canadianisms"
23:54:24 <Bike> wow, "yooper dialect"
23:55:15 <olsner> o.O "The Yooper dialect is also influenced by the Finnish language"
23:55:20 <olsner> Canadian Finnish!
23:55:42 <oerjan> yoopari
23:55:43 <Bike> it's not that surprising, a lot of the northern US is descended from scandinavians
23:56:00 <Bike> well, old northwest, would probably be more exact... i dunno.
23:56:03 <oerjan> wait, *yööpäri
23:56:18 <fizzie> `run words --eng-all --french --finnish 20 # a bit like this?
23:56:25 <HackEgo> pcquo nimaeleal thatt bab egresceroo ethomograal liilta etgressans mekavanasisuita theger diakiireältä ostacile conficagert yegastissa yaumast moit derdinertu red tent lakathintonarin
23:56:52 <fizzie> Red tent lakathintonarin.
23:57:04 <Bike> what did that do
23:57:09 <oerjan> ye emigrant finn, sitting in his little red tent by Lakathintonarin
23:57:20 <fizzie> Interpolated the character n-grams.
23:57:40 <Bike> ah.
23:57:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, doesn't that come from UP for upper peninsula
23:57:58 <fizzie> `run words --finnish --swedish # this is what they speak in Åland
23:58:00 <HackEgo> liitat
23:58:01 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: apparently, but i'm mostly giggling childishly at "yooper"
23:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> (i learnt so much worthless trivia about northern michigan from american gods
23:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> )
23:58:16 <fizzie> `run words --finnish --swedish 15 # a bit more please
23:58:18 <HackEgo> pella leptiserva vahtavissa felkonekdomma alsagna sträkkää utkistualist kaksfullenaan boremiera slum sinkerne lyhyinäs ska palteiskonte strumiljettamagin
23:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> they have pasties there apparently, you'd fit right in there Bike
23:58:30 <Arc_Koen> what did that do
23:58:40 <Bike> I am suave and popular.
23:58:55 <olsner> fizzie: last time I checked, they just speak swedish there
23:59:04 <olsner> (boringly)
23:59:09 <olsner> it doesn't even sound finnish
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